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I've been reading Henry17 for three straight years. In that time I have been influenced by his overall philosophy towards life, and gained many valuable insights. His posts have encouraged me to start working out, to buy nicer clothes, and have given me the proverbial kick in the butt to go out to bars and clubs to pick up girls, whereas otherwise I may have stayed home. I don't know where I would be without his words of wisdom. Probably in a similar place, but less happy. The contents of this book are divided into two sections: the first chapter deals with self-improvement, which I consider the most potentially life changing. Instead of trying to change your thoughts or blame other people for your problems he puts the responsibility up to you and challenges you to do something about it. If success with girls is what you're after, then there are solutions. It's just not an easy quick fix. How refreshing such advice is when compared to traditional self-help material and PUA material. Second, there is a chapter devoted to common problems. This is in no way a comprehensive playbook---just merely a snippet of his practical solutions. There he offers his thoughts on relationships, dibs, how to deal with the stigma of becoming a professional gambler, gives a complete list of products for men, among other things. Lastly, I've included the Prison TR. It is awesome. The one criticism of Henry17 is that he doesn't post TR's. Well, this is the best one that the 2+2 forums and it is also fairly unknown. DerrtySlime
Chapter 1: Self-Improvement
Originally Posted by CCuster_911 Henry are you ever worried that you dont actually have friends but rather people like to mooch off you? This is a very serious question. From your posts it seems like you are always putting yourself in positions where the people around you know you are wealthy. When people start talking to you becoming your friend do you ever actually care about their motives? Should a hot girl wear loose clothing and cover her face so that people don't know she is attractive? Part of having made your own money from nothing is that odds are you are brighter than the people who are trying to mooch. If you can't figure out people's motivations I can see how this might be an issue but it never has been for me. Sometimes mooches can be entertaining though so even though you know they are trying to play you it is worth letting them think you don't if the value you get is greater. Quote: Originally Posted by CCuster_911 Also no offense to you henry but you are the last person itt that should be giving out advice on getting girls, I mean girls love power and money and it seems liek you have both, and you cant teach that, not to say you lack "game" but its really hard for the average person to discern the difference between good advice form you and bad advice cause although you may get hot girls its for a different reason. My advice basically breaks down into two points -- neither of which is directly linked to money. The first is that in all interactions you need to pay attention to the minutia. Details matter and at all times you should have an ordered list of the best possible answers to explain people's behaviour. This is why giving out advice as a third party is difficult because you have to focus on how someone told a story about something that happened and then from that figure out what actually happened. This isn't limited to picking up girls -- you should be doing this in all your interactions with other people. The second item is be in the top few percent of whatever it is the demographic of girl you like happens to value. If you like mousy bookish girls then be an academic star and get published while in undergrad. If you like hippie girls buy a Prius and get yourself into prominent positions in green / poverty / anti-globalization groups. If you like girls from the poverty district learn how to be tough and use violence properly. Suicide girls become a big deal at the local vampire bar. Doesn't matter. All scenes have a value hierarchy and you want to be on the top of it. If you can be on top of a few even better as that expands the variety of girls who find you appealing. Granted power and money does cover the biggest demographic and this is where your attitude ****'en sucks. Read your post -- you have already condemned people to being average as if their choices are in no way the cause of that. I'm from a first generation immigrant family with blue
collar parents and grew up very middle class. The reason I had more money than my classmates in high school was because I looked for ways to make it. Same in university. I didn't really start making large amounts of money until the second half of university but I was always above the majority of my peers. Most of the people in this topic are students and most people realize the importance of success in dating so it is the perfect time to make the decision between am I going to do what it takes to be successful or am I going to be average and then grow up to be a bitter misogynist when I realize that quality women have no interest in average.
Then in 3-4 months re-enter the dating scene. Social skills are much harder. I don't believe you can work on those they just develop over time. If you just keep going out and out you'll develop them. The hope being that you develop them before you alienate the whole social scene. Success though is the one I think guys for whatever reason greatly under-estimate the value of. Girls like successful men. This doesn't mean they are gold diggers only smart. No one wants to hitch themselves to a sinking ship. A guy really can't expect to compete with his peers if he is a failure relative to them. I hate to bring up Ladder Theory because I think a lot of it is wrong and it i written by a misogynistic idiot who obviously has failed with women but there are some parts of Ladder Theory that he got right and I think a lot of guys in this thread would benefit from it.
Stuff Matters
Sounds like an excuse to me. If a girl is really into you, this stuff won't matter too much. Of course it will. People have a certain vision of what they want out of life. For most people that doesn't include living like a 20-something when they are 40. A girl in her late 20s-early30s is running out of time and will not waste any on a guy who doesn't have his **** together.
On Being a Good guy, and what a young 20-something girl really wants
think you have a very misguided idea of the dynamic of male-female relationships. I would consider myself one of the "good guys" in the sense that I'm strongly against the use of deception or intoxicants as a way to get laid. When I use to host parties a lot of guys were not happy with me as I was a big on making sure girls that got too drunk didn't leave with guys but rather slept it off or got home safe. On the rare occasion when guys did things I felt were really bad (hit a girl /
slip a girl G) I had no problem asking my bookie to have them beaten to within an inch of their life. I believe guys should always pay for girls -- even the unattractive ones that they have zero interest in. I believe in being a gentleman and all that entails. That being said the idea that male-female relationships are about love and "soul mates" is a concept that only exists in really bad teen movies. Girls want sex. You need to get yourself some female friends -- develop the relationship to the point where they feel comfortable to talk freely because they know you won't judge them -- then you'll realize girls are the same as guys when it comes to sex. The only real significant difference is that while guys go around foolishly boasting about their conquests while girls still have to deal with a somewhat misogynistic society that paradoxically wants girls to put out but then turns around and stigmatizes girls that do embrace their sexuality. If a guy manages to get a reputation for both being good in bed and exceptionally discrete he'll have horny girls calling him at 2am for sex. You could say well I don't want that which is your prerogative and almost everyone does want more than that eventually but it sort of just happens. If you set out with trying to win the heart of the fair maiden though chaste acts of niceness you are doing to find that the vast majority of twenty-something North American girls are going to run away from that. At twenty-one a girl isn't looking for long walks along the lake, duck feeding, and some hand holding -- they want fun, excitement, and sex.
Just overcome it
Quote:
I agree that response rate is pretty bad and based on that rate alone I will assume that you are average to below average in looks like I am. I find it interesting that you just assume that your level of physical attractiveness is an assigned attribute and that it can't be changed and then you go about designing strategies to overcome that. While your strategies are well thought out to me it seems you overlooked just eliminating the problem by improving your looks. Unless you were in some way disfigured in a fire with effort you should be able to get yourself at least to the upper area of average and in most cases guys should be able to get themselves into the lower end of attractive with just basic stuff -- guys who would consider radical efforts such as surgery could even improve more but that is not necessary. If a guy maximizes his looks, learns social skills, and further adds a a few extras he can avoid having to employ those strategies. Why learn how to run with your legs shackled together when you can just take 6-8 months off and learn to pick locks and then run normally?
in your parent's home it might make sense to focus on fixing the financial situation first then working on the dating. People need to be honest with themselves. Identify the areas that can use improvement and then improve them. Putting any attempts at dating during that improvement period helps since you don't get the discouragement which might derail you.
difficult that they have convinced themselves that when they get one they want to keep her forever. I think the desire for soul mates in guys under 26-27 is the result of inexperience more than anything else.
Genuine Improvement
I don't necessarily feel that going out of their comfort zone is actually a good thing. Comfort zones exist for a reason. The reason people have these fears is because of history. Simply pushing past these fears without actually changing the underlying factors that led to their formation in the first place is not going to help anyone. An easy example would be someone who is overweight. Society as a whole and especially when it comes to dating is not very friendly to individuals who are overweight. You simply can't push past that. At the end of the day you are still overweight and the only way to get past that is to get in shape. I guy who believes wearing a wolf-sweater is the pinnacle of fashion isn't going to improve by pushing though and just gaining fake confidence -- he needs to actually learn to dress. The guy who lives at home or in some dump is not suddenly going to have an impressive condo because he pushed out of his comfort zone. I have yet to see anything in PUA that tells guys that they should be improving any of the metrics on which women will judge them. If a guy doesn't improve himself then any confidence PUA generates is transient and will disappear fast.
Integrity
Think less about what to do when out and more about who you are. That is another flaw of PUA -- it is all about superficial things you say or do and nothing about who you are. The goal is to become someone girls want. Everything else just works out for everyone except the most socially
awkward.
Well Said
Quote: Originally Posted by aarono2690 A man who will naturally attract women by being a great man. Of course confidence and not putting women on pedestals are all emphasized but like I said it's more for self-improvement. That is exactly it. Make yourself someone girls want to date and everything else just takes care of itself.
Don't be a creep
I should actually say pest or annoyance rather than creep. Earlier in the thread someone directed me to some guru (they are all merged now but I think it was the Double Your Dating guy) and I read his phone game essay. Some of it was good advice and some of it was bad but what struck me was what he said about getting a date. His advice was to ask but if she said not to go back to
talking and then ask again. If she turns you down return to talking and ask again. He actually advises guys to keep doing this until she agrees. Well of course that is going to lead to a high percentage of girls standing guys up or canceling later. She doesn't want to and the strategy is to try just keep pushing until she capitulates. That theme of just keep pushing and pushing until you get what you want is heavily present in PUA to the point where that strange fellow who is keeping an a journal of his PUA adventures in OOT is musing about being more forceful with girls once they get back to his place because the majority don't want to have sex. I'm not sure but I think that is called rape. It is the same thing with getting numbers. The girl realizes that if she doesn't give the PUA guy something he won't leave so she gives him a number since as soon as he has it he'll be on his way and leave her alone.
How to be interesting
Quote: The habits learned in the PUA community just teach you how to be more playful, confident, interesting, and flirtatious among a plethora of other things... I'm still looking for an answer to how it makes you more interesting? I'm interesting because of my past and the things I've done or know. PUA doesn't make you more interesting. You can't become interesting by listening to a bunch of guys on a video talk about nothing for a few hours.
the lower end to the top they will behave fine. It will take them some time to come into their own but they would be able to function pretty successfully from the get go. Quote: You acknowledge yourself that some guys aren't properly "socialized" which infers it's more than just being confident. You can't have confidence on something you haven't learned how to do effectively, or you can it just won't end well. It depends. Some guys really do have zero social skills an for those you are right but that is very rare. For the vast majority of guys who have trouble with women it isn't that they are basement hermits but simply that they realize that they are low on the qualities that girls are drawn to so they are introverted because of it. You increase their social value and the introversion goes away. In fact the few times I've helped someone the problem is that they go from being shy and reserved to being obnoxious and braggadocios and I have to actually pull them back a little
than you need them. I left #4 for last because it segues into my piece on confidence. Everyone knows that confidence is important. The idea that anyone can become confident by reading a book or studying anything is retarded. Confidence is the result of past achievement and who you are. If you do the lifestyle stuff properly then confidence will just be a natural byproduct of being better.
WHAT DO I GET MY GIRLFRIEND FOR CHRISTMAS HYACHACHAHCA I've never had a girlfriend over the holidays and I can't look like a regular chump =/ Jewelry (nothing from People's or Mappings though). Sex toys are good for stocking stuffers but she also needs something as a main gift which she can talk about when asked. what do i get my gf for christmas when she already told me she doesnt want jewelry of any kind. Jewelry is the default gift. With that ruled out I might consider a day at the spa gift certificate. Most girls like the spa but I have found that a small percentage don't. Trips are also good but I always find these odd gifts since presumably she would be taking you so you end up getting as much benefit as she does from the gift. Bags are also good. Something from Dior would be really appreciated. Just don't buy it off the internet since 99% of those are fake. Giving a knock off is bad. Beyond that she must have dropped some hints. Over the last few months there is nothing you remember her mentioning that she never bought?
Diner Date
Cooking dinner for a girl on a second date says one of two things. You either are trying to nail her or you are cheap / broke. Neither is really a great message to send. If the second date is already in the home that really doesn't sell this as an exciting new person to spend time with. I wouldn't even consider cooking dinner for someone until after I've already had sex with them.
On PUA Material
If someone reads this stuff and tries to act like the Pick UP manual told them to act they are going to make an ass of themselves. A few years back I had a guy who tried to imitate me. He couldn't understand why it didn't work for him. Truth is very few people have the ability to change who they are instantly. If you develop into a certain personality and way of acting over time then it is natural for you. If you read something and then try to act that way it is going to come off as contrived, lead to failure and then the person will give up on it because it didn't fix things fast enough.
Online Dating
I would avoid online dating for obvious reasons. Just go out you'll meet people quickly and then there is a multiplier effect as you meet their friends and then the friends of the friends. Before you realize it you know more people than you can allot time for.
Online dating 2
My position on dating sites is that they are fine if you are older. For under 35 I'd suggest against it unless you are having a lot of trouble and you are not superficial. If looks are important then you'll be disappointed.
Very hard. I find it is easier to have someone else do it. This is why I say being a regular is important. In your situation I wouldn't have done anything. Now if it happened on home turf where I have a lot more tools available I'd send another girl to get the girl I liked.
With a follow-up
Quote: Originally Posted by SlowHabit When you send over your female friend, do you have any instructions for her or you just choose an attractive female friend and let her freestyle? No instructions. The girl is not sent out to pick-up the girl for me. Her job is only to get her to come into the VIP area which is a fairly easy sale. Then I can talk to her without having to deal with all the other guys.
waitress has asked me to teach her which was an instant first date. If you are meeting girls online I think that might shift the demographic to girls who are looking for something serious faster which is probably why they have these issues with gambling. Girls who are on a time-line don't want to take chances while a girl who is more casually dating is more inclined to say "whatever I'll give the guy a shot and if he turns out to be a degenerate then I'll know in a few weeks".
Game theory
Quote: Originally Posted by Grue Men have to make the move, they have to take the chances. Its just the way it works. Girls send out a lot of signals though. They also initiate the flirting. The guy has to close the deal but by then you know where you stand. The whole process is a back and forth and if a guy is not certain of where he stands then either the girl is not interested or the guy is trying to move too fast.
Further
Maybe I didn't express myself clearly because I certainly didn't mean mind-reading ability is necessary. It has nothing to do with mind reading and everything to do with tit for tat signalling. Girl sends out a signal, guy picks up on signal yet has no clue where he stands so sends back a signal. Girl now thinks guy maybe likes her too so is willing to send out a signal that is a tad more obvious but still fairly indefinite. Guy picks up on that and responds with a signal that is even more clear. This goes on with each round bringing you closer to certainty until both parties know exactly where the other stands and now the guy has to make the decisive final move. The number of rounds depends on how aggressive either party is. I've met girls who open with a signal that puts you into end game play after the first move and I've met girls where you spend weeks slowly developing the tit for tat escalation. My point is that by the time the guy does anything decisive he knows exactly where he stands and if he doesn't then he is trying to force the issue which never ends well.
that it seems glacial. Guys who are outcome orientated tend to have problems with girls. They want to know right now and that leads to over-thinking and forcing it. You can be pro-active in the whole tit for tat signalling business. You can put something out there and based on her actions you'll know if she is interested or not. Girls are privy to this tit for tat signalling as well so she'll see your set up for what it is and either choose to spike it or not. Everyone knows what is going on but this game allows for plausible deniability and social interaction is just smoother if a lot of things are just left implicit.
On Dibs
With respect to calling dibs I don't believe in it. So I'd feel perfectly fine going after the girl despite your friend's interest in her. This is even more true since the girl has already expressed interest in you.
That being said I've done this a couple of times and in every case it ended the friendship. Sometimes outright in a big angry way with the guy freaking out and sometimes it just led to the friendship fading away. So I'd consider that. It really depends on how focused your friend is on this girl. I'm not sure if talking to him before hand would help or not. It makes the whole thing less sneaky but if he is the type of guy who is going to get upset he'll still get upset. I really don't think it changes much.
Dibs2
I'd just tell him. I've found myself in a similar situation several times and there is no other play. I don't believe in calling dibs on girls are saying so and so if off-limits. If a friend isn't able to deal with that then that is unfortunate. When it comes to people who are more acquaintances than friends I won't tell them I'll just let them find out naturally. Under no circumstances would I try to hide it though.
Dibs3
don't agree with that at all. I've broken up couples before and I see nothing wrong with it so long as I don't have a close relationship with the girl's BF. Women are not property or something you can call dibs on or mark in some way. If someone thinks they can entice a girl to leave her BF for a better offer then I say go for it. The one pitfall is that phatjeffrey will just waste a lot of time on this and get nowhere. He seems to be implying a passive approach of just waiting for the relationship to end which might never happen. Either get in there and break them up or move on (possibly keeping her as a very low priority that you check in on when bored). Don't be that guy who wastes a year or two chasing a girl that has a BF while life passes by.
More
I just hope the guys that are pursuing girls with boyfriends realize that if the girl decides to cheat on her bf and then enter a relationship with you, she will most likely cheat on you as well. Not really. The reasons I can break up a couple is because the guy isn't making the girl feel special. When a guy is courting a girl he'll go the extra mile but once he feels secure he becomes complacent. Flowers and other romantic gestures become less frequent, romantic dinners at nice
restaurants are replaced by pizza and a movie, going out becomes less frequent, other life aspects start to take priority etc. If a guy avoids this the girl won't be bored and easy to poach.
Dibs+Relationship advice
This is the kind of horrible treatment i'm talking about. People settle into a comfortable relationship. This is not bad. Real relationships grow from this point when the pheremones run out. It's not about security, it's about being real. What is real about being boring? If anything I'd say the current BF is the one who is disingenuous -- He pretended to be something during the courting phase and then once he felt comfortable he stopped. Quote: Conning a girl into breaking up with her bf cause you can fake the romantic impulses and sweep her off her feet is bad. Agency is never a bad thing. I simply offer a girl a different choice and if she takes it then so be it. I haven't conned anyone. A lot of guys want to be lazy in their relationships and hope to keep girls by isolating and controlling their contact with others. That isn't a GF -- that is a hostage situation. I want guys to go after my GF. That way I know she is with me out of choice rather than necessity or lack of other options. Quote: However, every relationship will have times when things become complacent. I haven't had many long term relationships but of the few I have I don't believe this is true. I'm in what will be a three year relationship this month and I'm still behaving exactly the way I did day 1. How to make a girl feel special
Henry, (or anyone else) how do you make a girl feel special? I'll be honest in my case it is mostly a matter of spending money. Flowers, nice restaurants, bottle service, spa days, limos, etc. It goes beyond that though. You also have to pay attention and do nice things that are non-monetary.For example, I liked this one girl. We had gone on a few dates bot nothing serious. She mentioned she really liked this handbag although it was way out of her price range. I remembered that so I decided to get it for her. When it wasn't available locally I drove to NYC to buy it. So not only was I shelling out $2k for a gift when most guys complain about having to pay for dinner but I also paid attention to when she was talking about it and I was willing to drive the 8 hours each way to acquire it. This type of behaviour though is a double-edged sword. If you don't do it right the girl will think you're a sap or even pathetic. You have to come off as wanting her to be happy and feel like a princess while at the same time being aloof and not overly committed. She has to come away feeling like if she doesn't play her cards right the fantasy world will go bye bye and she'll be back in reality in a blink of an eye.
The idea is that you get up the next day and were so happy about the date that you are compelled to rush out and send her flowers. If you hint at it the night before then it seems more like this is part of your dating strategy rather than about the girl herself. If you are hinting at it during the date then you've already decided to do this so the decision can't really be based on how well the date went. The girl wants to believe that you went home after the date and thought about the night and that after contemplation came up with the idea of doing something nice.
On paying correctly
While I think the guy should always pay making a big deal about it is worse then who pays so offer to pay -- reassure her that you are cool with and you would love to pay and tell her she can get a drink after or something to that effect -- but if she insists on paying half then let her. It really depends on why she wants to pay half. I personally have never had a girl insist on paying. I have had a few girls reach for their bag when the bill arrives but a "don't be silly -- I've got it" is all the arm-twisting I have ever had to do. Our Hero digs himself into more mileu 1) How about: 4) just acting naturally and splitting the bill as logic suggests? That isn't natural at all. Equality requires that the male pay since females spend considerably more on pre-date expenditures required for them to look good on a date. Quote: 2) Why should any of those be rebutted? Why on Earth is it paramount to pay the bill? It isn't paramount. I happen to strongly believe in paying but even if you don't you should look at it as a self-interest thing -- Guys who don't believe in paying on dates are at a large competitive disadvantage to guys who do.
It is also a lot more natural. Putting the car at her place when you are still sober is signalling that you plan to stay over. Think about it. You are putting the car at her house because you are going to be too drunk to drive after the lounge so obviously you have to stay at her house as you're not going to magically sober up in a fifteen minute cab ride. I know girls who were planning on sleeping with a guy who got pissed off and changed their mind because the guy tried to force a situation and in your case it is a second date. It is much better to not have a plan but to abandon the car and start using cabs because of drinking. Now you are just being a socially responsible guy who doesn't want to endanger others.
Find a scene
It isn't hard to start from scratch. When I came to Ottawa I knew zero people. You just go out and you start developing a circle of friends. Focus on a few places and stay in one scene so that you start to know people. Befriend serving staff as they know a lot of people. Now if you don't like going out that is harder to overcome. There must be something you like though or at least hate less. In collage going out is basically going to a place with four walls that serves rum, vodka, and beer for as cheaply as possible so that people can consume as much as possible while listening to top 40. As you get older you have so many other options for scenes that something must appeal to you at least a little. It is just a matter of finding it.
In person bro
I hate not in person communication. Phone is bad because of no visual cues but at least you have voice inflection. E-mail is bad but at least you have complete sentences. Text messages are useless because of space restrictions.
degree coerce girls into going out with them. If a girl is interest you don't need to be aggressive and putting pressure on her.
Just work
That being said my answer to someone in that situation would be make more money. I know that is easy to say and really who wouldn't want to make more money but I simply don't believe that someone who can't afford $100-120 a week is really working hard enough. I grew up lower-middle class and I just worked. Even in high school when we had to use fake ID and go to bars that didn't really care everyone had $60-80 which adjusted for inflation was the equivalent of $110-150 now. My first year of university I had two part-time jobs, made extra money writing code for compsci students, and I had savings from working full time in the summer. Of my friends who are students all of them have at least one or two part-time jobs and one has a full-time job. A lot of them combine being social with working as serving staff. I guarantee you anyone who claims to not make enough money to afford non-baller going out is logging way too many hours of TV, video games, or some other useless activity. Lack of money is really something that ties a guy's hands behind his back. It impacts so much more than just drinking. If guys that waste hours and hours reading PUA material instead went out and got a second or third part-time job -- even at minimum wage -- for the same number of hours that would have a considerably greater impact on their success rate than studying retarded books.
oral. A lot of girls complained about horrible attempts at oral. One girl complained that if she made any noise the guy would just get too excited and cum. The vast majority just express dissatisfaction but don't really get into specifics. Girls are not shy in saying he simply isn't doing it for me in the bedroom and they say it quite frequently but I really have no interest in knowing any more.
Teeth
I'd break up (unless you have a bag of money in which case I'd fix her teeth). You are embarrassed to be seen with her in public. You are not doing to get past this and as a superficial person I don't think you should. That being said you need to in no way mention her teeth when you break up. Find any other possible reason and go with that. People who have bad teeth think about it always. I assure you she thinks about it a couple of times a day every day of her life. You owe her at least as much as to not make it worse. I knew a stripper like you describe. Amazing body, great face, and then she smiled.
No need
I think you are putting too much value on this idea that women want a guy to take charge. Girls don't want a guy to be a pussy but that doesn't mean you should be going sex - sex - sex. Girls know that guys who approach them want to get laid so there is really no reason why you need to be explicit and in their face about it despite what PUA says. Flirt and show interest but don't worry about trying to actually get her to commit to sex during the night. This again is where not having a place is a major hurdle. Just have fun and enjoy the night and as the night starts to slow down you just move to your place.
but who wants to have sex with a fat / ugly girl. The more selective you are the better so long as you are realistic. Going after girls below you because they are easier will in the end lower your standing in the dating hierarchy
Sex and more evidence to support this man is the real Jay Gatsby
Quote: Women actually hold sex back from the long-term interests, because putting out right away is counterproductive to their goals (why buy the cow when the milk is free) Girls want and enjoy sex just as much as men do. This belief that women date only to get a long term mate is simply wrong. Quote: Frankly, if someone has no idea which clothing "looks good" and which doesn't, they can't be expected to do that in a matter of months. Of course they can. I have a fairly good grasp on fashion yet I have someone who dresses me. Pretty much any upmarket clothing store will have personal shoppers who will take care of this for you. I believe I would do ok if I tried to buy my own clothing but why do that when there is someone who can do it better? If your budget is such that you can't shop at the type of stores that offer this service you can just look at the mannequins as they are almost always well dressed or start reading GQ and stealing ideas from the magazine. You are tall, intelligent, and willing to put in effort you should be able to pull this off.
Emotional guys are a potential hassle. If a girl is on the fence and unsure showing emotions will push her to the no side. Look at the example above where the guy called the girl so many times she called the police. That is what girls see as potential behaviour of emotional guys.
Round 1 vs Madnak
Quote: No. When simply interacting with other human beings becomes a matter of decoding a series of arcane gestures They are not arcane. The majority of individuals have no issues understanding them. Further, there is an interesting phenomenon that I've witnessed where an individual is perfectly capable of understanding a situation so long as it involves someone else but then when faced with the exact same situation themselves they fail miserably. This implies strongly that the problem is one of being wilfully blind, Quote: And while in some cultures it is, in most of those cultures courting rituals are taught to everyone. While I've never travelled outside of Western culture I find it hard to believe that other cultures have formal education in dating. I'm not even sure if dating as we do it really exists outside of Western cultures. I do feel that some popular media portrayals of dating will lead people to form incorrect beliefs -- this is not as true as it was when I was a teen but despite the reduction there is still a disassociation between popular media's depiction and reality. Still you learn dating by observation and experiment not my receiving instructions. There is no barrier to anyone educating themselves in this respect. The problem with most guys is a stubborn desire to repeat patterns of behaviour that consistently failed them. It is hard to feel pity for people who are responsible for their own situation. Quote: I'd wager 95% of guys miss a number of signals, they are just too subtle and too inconsistent to reliably catch, for anyone who isn't a born genius at catching very subtle cues. Many women, on the other hand, seem to expect men to be mind-readers, to an extent that even social geniuses have trouble with. I don't feel that the characterization of this as a male issue is valid. Women have the exact same issues. The percentage of females who lack the skills to understand courting signals is considerably higher than males. It is just not as evident given traditional roles. Quote: Let me repeat that for emphasis: our whole courting system is based on plausible deniability. There's something twisted about that. It is because we live in a fairly close-knitted social environment and we desire the ability to continue to interact within that sphere without introducing awkwardness. Full out rejection destroys that. If a Mary is interest in Tom and she sends out small hints and Tom does not respond everyone can go back to just acting like normal. Everyone can still be cordial and interact. On the other hand if Mary just goes after Tom full out and Tom is not interested he still can save the the situation somewhat by claiming that he "enjoys being single and isn't looking to date anyone" or that "he is really busy with work and has no time to date" both are code for I
don't want to date you but they allow Mary to save face. If Tom was honest and just said "Well no I think I'm able to do better than you so I'm not interested in dating you thanks for the offer" there is no way for Mary to save face and remain part of the social sphere. Further, when you do tell people flat out they generally don't take it well and also want to know why or have some explanation. If people accepted and dealt with blunt truth better over time I could see it becoming more common but given the typical reaction it doesn't make sense to be bluntly truthful. Quote: and serious mental illness affects a massive proportion of our population, Mostly because NA is obsessed with the pseudo-science of psychology. In other western cultures that have very similar dating rituals you don't have the same level of supposed psychological illness. Quote: Most people can't learn to swim by being thrown into the deep end. Having dated a girl that taught swimming that is actually how they teach the very young to swim. Now I don't know how common or advisable that practise is but with very young the swimming instructors at this pool just threw them in and they learned. This does not work for older children. I think an analogy can be made to dating in that the people who fail to develop the social skills for dating are usually the same people who opted to delay entering the dating sphere until later in life. Quote: It's great that you're multi-talented, but if you take it for granted you'll (deservedly) piss a lot of people off. Actually quite the opposite. I was socially retarded until about first year university. The difference is that I realized the problem was me and not the system. I took the time to figure out what I was doing wrong and I changed it.
Round 2 vs Madnak
Quote: The majority of men have no issues understanding the signals of women? I disagree, I think the majority of men find women confusing and frustrating, and feel that they give mixed signals constantly. That is because people hang around with similar people. If you have issues with it then odds are your friends do as well which makes you believe the number is considerably larger. If your friends were more adapt with women you would have learned from their behaviour. The result is that we end up with clusters. Quote: Also, as I mentioned, the GSS shows that the number of friends the average American has is dropping rapidly, (down to 2.08). Given that people are able to deal with social situations effectively, why do they achieve intimacy with so few? I have no idea. It could be the sampling or how people define friend. I haven't found that to be the case. I think most people have plenty of friends -- not in the I'd be willing to help him dispose of a body sense but at least in the more casual someone to do something fun with sense. I do admit that it is possible that this large population of loners does exist since they wouldn't really
come out to normal social gathering places so my sampling would miss them. I do seem to run into them a lot online and I'm always surprised. I think if they were to come out and go to a sports bar or a pub they would quickly make friends. The problem with making new friends postuniversity is a much greater issue for females than males. Quote: Given that people are staying single longer, why is the number of sex partners going down? It isn't. People have considerably more sexual partners now than they did even ten years ago. Quote: That doesn't follow. You seem to be putting a lot of assumptions into this, ie, either a person is capable of recognizing this type of situation or they aren't, and if they are they must be lying to themselves when it happens to them. My point was that they fail at recognizing it when it involves them but they see it clearly when it involves others. I've actually noticed something similar when playing chess as oppose to watching a game being played. A recent example involved a girl I know. She is very attractive and has no shortage of guys chasing her. She had actually just let down two guys with the I'm too busy with work excuse, she also discussed a friend in common who was also getting the work excuse and her and I were on the same page that the guy was just letting our friend down gently. Fast forward four months and I'm out for drinks with her and she is all obsessed with a guy who keeps telling her he is too busy with work. There is no reason for her to not understand what this means -- she used the excuse herself at least twice that I know of and she detected it when used on someone else but now that she is on the receiving end she suddenly doesn't understand what it means. Quote: That's a valid point. But I think the impetus is something else. The fact is, we don't live in a closeknit social environment. Of course we do. I noticed just how much when I arrived in a city where I knew no one. As I met people I realized the number of connections everyone has to everyone else. I'm not saying meaningful relations but associations which require that people interact with each other over and over again. Assuming someone is social they are less than 3-4 degrees of separation from the vast majority of their peer group in that city. You can't have brutal interactions with people because you'll run into them again as social outings. Quote: I've tried starting conversations on the subway a few times, and it's just too awkward. That isn't a place to start a conversation. Quote: there's no denying the prevalence of suicide The US suicide rate per capita is actually not high. It is actually in the bottom half of countries that keep stats on suicide.
Peacocking
I never disagreed with this. I'm a strong believer in dressing well, good haircuts, proper skin care, and working out. I can see why you'd classify this as peacocking but then anything used to draw attention to you would be peacocking. My issue is with dressing like a clown.
Being a DJ
Re: Being a DJ I have said it on here a few times. Being a DJ is one of the best ways to get laid. I have a few friends who are famous DJs and they got laid at will always with very hot girls and got to make considerably above average money while travelling the world and partying. It is a good life. You don't have to be successful at it either. Even the moderately successful local DJs who make no money do very well for themselves when it comes to getting laid. The negative to that is that it is probably not something someone who is still a virgin at 19-21 could do. Quote: Originally Posted by droller You don't need to become a god damn DJ to get laid.. it takes a long time to learn how to spin, you need connections to get into clubs... etc etc. I didn't mean to imply it was an efficient route. There are much easier ways. I just find it an interesting phenomenon the way girls throw themselves at DJs.
Talking
If you know and are aware of this why don't you just change your life so that it is actually interesting? Then you'd have a lot of stuff to talk about. It is not like talking is this thing in a vacuum -- you need to have life experiences and overlapping reality with people if you want to be able to socialize with them.
Prison TR
The story starts off in traffic court which I was shocked to find out even had a holding cell. They took my belt, shoelaces, and the contents of my pockets. I guess to prevent me from hanging myself. I figured I was going to sit in the holding cell for an hour or two and then get sent home until I heard on the bailiff's radio that the cop was lost and couldn't find the holding cell entrance which was when I realized I was being moved to jail. The ride over was fine the cop was laughing because it was so clear that I wasn't a criminal and he had never picked up someone from traffic court. I asked if we could swing by my house so I could pay my rent but he said he couldn't. I got to jail and was put in a holding cell waiting for processing. I was in with 3-4 guys. Started talking to them. I obviously didn't fit in they were all disheveled and I wasn't. They brought us out for processing and the guard turns to me and says "You have to go now you can meet with him after he gets processed." Obviously mistaking me for the guy's lawyer. If I hadn't asked for my belt and shoelaces back I could have just left. I did and then they realized I was suppose to be there. They would keep losing track of me since I wasn't a criminal I wasn't on any of the lists and they actually forgot me in the hole later. They processed me. I asked to see my cell phone and jotted down a few numbers for later. Now in my orange jumper I'm walking with the other guys. We have to pick up these single mattress pad like thing. Apparently I was smiling too much because one the guards asked "Why was I so happy" and I shot back some comment about how I was just there temporarily but he would still have this ****ty job. Not my best burn but I had plans to go drinking with a friend who was coming in from out of town that night and now I was going into the general population of a jail so under the circumstances it wasn't bad. More importantly it established that I wasn't afraid and I really wasn't. At this point I saw it as an adventure and a new experience. I figured if once I got bored with it I could get myself out but it might be interesting to spend a weekend or even a week. I had never been to jail before and here was an opportunity experience it without any of the negative aspects of having a criminal record. I pretty much assumed that I would have some physical confrontations but that I would be fine because I've always been fine so I wasn't overly worried and even somewhat excited. So we get to dorm 1 and get let in. The room is basically the size of a small school gym. A double door system to get in. Two phones at the front. Bathroom stalls and showers in a separate bathroom and then the big room which has a bunch of tables at the front and a tiny TV followed by a double row of bunk beds. Pretty much the way a military barrack gets portrayed on TV. There is a big red emergency button to press but located in such a way that you'd never get to it if you were actually in trouble. The dorm had two rows of 10-12 bunk beds so a capacity of 40+ which is not what I expected based on TV. There were two guys who were clearly bikers, two black guys of Caribbean heritage (probably Haitian), a group of YOs who i would later find were moved to adult jail because they were beating the crap out of the younger prisoners in the youth facility, a Lebanese group, a older person group, and then just random individuals who you could tell were just losers in life and unimportant in prison as well. It is funny because I automatically started assigning crimes to each of them and I was either right or very close on all of them.
When new prisoners are introduced to a dorm there is a period where you have a high probability of getting bounced -- basically challenged to a fight the result of which is the loser usually goes to a new dorm where because he was already bounced has a high probability of getting bounced again until he ends up either in PC or the hole. This is part of the entertainment and by the end I would actually look forward to it. I never bounced anyone but it was like having ring side seats to a street fight. I came in on a Friday so I was lucky in the sense. Friday is a popular day both for new convicts and because the people serving weekend-only sentences come in and many of them bring in the drugs and tobacco. So there were a lot of people coming in which decreased the chance of me getting bounced. One of the weekenders had been processed with me so I had already established what in PUA terms is called social proof by the way I treated him and talked back to the guards. Still weekenders are useful but not really respected so there was still a good chance of getting bounced. Two guys who came in with me did get bounced but I didn't. During the bouncing period I got to watch the group dynamic. Pete a massive big biker was the one who was in charge. The other biker had his back. The YOs did all the bouncing and they had a leader named Dusty and they basically ran stuff unless Pete was pissed enough to get involved. The Haitians kept to themselves. The Lebanese group were a wild card. Old guys just tried to stay out of the way. Same with the general losers. Out of this mess I did notice one loner guy who was not like the other losers in that you could tell he had a better life outside than the rest since he didn't have that poverty / white trash look. I figured he would be the best guy to try to talk to. I picked an upper bunk next to the second biker. A top bunk seemed to be the proper choice if someone was going to beat on me when sleeping I wanted them to not have leverage. Also being next to the biker would hopefully keep people away for fear of them disturbing him. I didn't know it at the time but there was a discussion about me between Steve (the guy I wanted to make friends with), Pete, Dusty and some of the other YOs. They suspected I might be a narc so Steve came over and offered me some hash. I took a toke to be polite but it is far from a drug I'd seek out. Started talking and he seemed cool. I never found out what he was in for but I do know he was moved to super-max after his trial but he didn't serve too much time so my guess is something involving large quantities of drugs but no violence. Anyway they had gotten my story from the weekender and so were curious because I was odd and for criminals that makes them suspicious. I got called out for my entrance medical exam and went to see the nurse. I love how they wait till after the bouncing to do the medical exams but I was fineand a bit of a snot to the nurse. Back in the dorm I decide to get my bed in order. The biker had just got off the phone and was pissed. He started to bitch to me about his lawyer. I listened and explained that while I was not a working lawyer I had an LLB and while my area had been intellectual property I did take a lot of criminal law so we talked about his situation. I agreed with him that the lawyer wasn't really trying and offered to help. Asked how the phones work and went to make some calls. I got a friend from law school who owed me big time to take over the biker's case, I called the strip club to tell them to tell my friend from out of town what happened and to put his bill on my tab of he had no money which he never did, called a third friend to come to the jail and get my keys so he could pick up my car from a golf course I left it at.
The biker was ecstatic. Started asking me about why I was there. I explained the whole thing. He thought it was a hoot. Started talking about the gambling and asking me about people he knew who were involved in underground gambling. Eventually we hit on some people we knew in common. That led to him yelling out that "Hey Pete this guys knows XXXXX" Which got me to meet Pete but also made it clear that I was ok. Pete had already heard about the me coming from traffic court and we laughed about it a little. Then dinner was served. Steve invited me to sit with him and dinner is a very stressful time. Something like taking someone's desert is grounds for a fight. I'm a very picky eater so I didn't want to have a lot of the stuff that came with dinner but I had to take it and give it away. i couldn't just leave it and have someone take it without causing problems so i did that. The rest of the night is just shooting the ****. I spent it talking to Steve, a crackhead, and met some of the YOs. Most of jail is just talking and luckily I had a lot of interesting stories. My biggest concern was that they would think I was full of ****. I mean my life is a pretty questionable story and in real life I have props but in jail I'm just a guy in a orange jumpsuit talking about stuff. The weekender saw me in the processing cell but i am pretty sure he couldn't tell the difference between $2800 Prada coat and a $100 Sears coat so I had to start off with stories that were interesting but not unbelievable. By the end of the first half day I had made contact with the Alpha inmate and established that we had acquaintances in common, I had the second biker indebted to me, I had befriended a guy of medium status who was the most like me, I had established that on the outside I was comfortable both in the legitimate and illegitimate spheres, I had a lot of great stripper / girl stories which for a guy in jail was a big topic. I was pretty sure I was going to be ok so long as they didn't think I was full of ****. I figured my greatest threat was two YOs - a pretty tough guy named Soldier and a total punk who always went after the smallest runts during bouncing and who would have been bounced himself if he wasn't native. The next day was pretty uneventful. Basically sat around and talked, played cards and chess, watched TV. The only significant development was that a guard needed me to sign something to give them permission to go into my personal possessions and give my car keys to my friend. At this point he asked me how someone with no job could afford a Porsche which was load enough for a few inmates to hear thus confirming some of my story. I spent the next few days just talking and killing time. There was no gym and going out to yard was stupid (it was cold and there was nothing to do but walk in a square). Three or four days in I was switching channels and stopped on Law and Order. Pete yelled out to me to change it. He had two rules -- No cop shows and no talking during the Shakira video of Hips Don't lie which seemed to play at least once or twice a day. The important part wasn't the reprimand but that he called me GQ. That became my jail nickname and even know when I occasionally run into someone from Dorm 1 they still call me GQ. I also had a lot of female visitors almost all strippers and strip club staff and that really helped my status. The Haitians had never spoken to me until we used the visiting booth next to mine and after that he came over to give me props on the girl who had come to visit that day. A few more days pass and now the guards are on work-to-rule basically a strategy where they do a ****ty job to pressure contact negotiations. The claim was that their jobs were unsafe and they
were really pushing to cause a riot. Anxiety was really high because the routine was bring broken and inmates need routine to function. Something like serving dinner three hours late and cold and only half of what should be there and convicts freak. I managed to keep things under control by explaining to Pete and Dusty that if they don't control the inmates the guards win. That the guards want us to go nuts so they can say that the jail isn't safe. That kept the peace for a few days Then one day we had no lunch yet and it was late afternoon. I went up to a female guard and though the bars explained that she didn't have to feed the rest of us but that one of the old guys was diabetic and that if she didn't have his lunch served immediately I was going to get involved. I clearly meant that I was going to look at legal options as well as telling some of my reporter friends what the guards were doing. I already had the inmates calling into local talk radio telling them what the guards were doing but that was mostly to give them a sense of power and keep them from rioting. It would be very different if I started calling people I knew in law and politics (not that I wanted to do that from inside jail). Anyway she took that as a threat and came back with a bunch of guards. They came into the dorm and a male guard who was a total prick got in my face about threatening the female guard. I explained That I meant legally and not physically and that she knew that. I don't know what he was trying to prove but he got all up in my face and started asking me if I knew who he was. I actually did he use to be a YO guard but after he got beaten up by some YO a few months ago he was shifted downstairs because he couldn't command and respect from the YO s who made fun of him so I told him that he was the guy who gets beat up by kids and he lost it. I was between two bunks and I just lifted myself up and planted both my feet into his chest. The rest of the guards swarmed me and it was bad. I passed out I think from a choke hold and horrible things happened and I was dragged to the hole. The hole is basically the same as being locked in your bathroom. You have nothing and you are in a small room with a toilet. I basically just sat and thought about stuff. There were a few academic problems and life planning stuff but without a phone or even pan and paper it is hard to do anything. Eventually i started keeping styrofoam from the dinners to use as really bad paper. Eventually the door opened and they threw in a YO named Jay. Jay was from dorm 1 as well. Apparently things were pretty bad out there. All of solitary was full which was why we were now two to a cell. I was actually glad to be in the there rather than in the dorms given what I was hearing. Jay asked to use a phone to call his lawyer but it took hours and led to a great coincidence where I managed to get some revenge. We spent the time talking about stealing cars which is what he did. I might have trouble with the actual execution but at least in theory I know how to run a auto theft ring should things go to the ****s in the future. We also spent a lot of time talking about his GF who was a stripper and the jealousy issues involved with him being locked up and her having that for a job. I've actually hung out with him once since jail and seen him out a few times. While we were in the hole I somehow pissed off a female guard. I don't remember how it started but she freaked out and wanted to open the cell door. I kept egging her on because I knew opening the door with only her and a second guard is against protocol since you need overwhelming force before opening a door and it would have been two on two. Also since in solitary you have no contact with the prisoners I think they keep the smallest guards in that section. She was a five foot nothing, fat, late 40s / early 50s female and the male guard who was
trying to stop her from opening the door was 50+ and 5'6". If she hit me Jay and I would have taken them. In retrospect I'm glad she didn't open the door but I really kept insulting her at the time. Next day I was moved to a different solitary cell. It wasn't actually a cell but actually the shower cell but they were desperate for space. That night a big black guy was thrown in. The guy was all bloody and massive. He didn't talk for the first two hours and eventually started talking. He had been bounced from 3-4 dorms. His story was that he was in for murder and waiting extradition to the States. Real story he told me was that he was in for criminal harassment of his ex-wife (stalking) but that he wanted to keep up appearance of a more serious and less stigmatized charge than stalking. He then went on about his small business as a kids entertainer. He apparently had a few costumes and would get dressed up and do young children's parties. He was moved the next day and I spent some time alone in the hole. Eventually I returned to Dorm 1 to chatting of GQ GQ GQ. Jay had returned to the dorm before me and told the story about us being in the hole. It wasn't that I was a bad ass by their standards but it was enough to get acceptance. Pretty much at this point Pete was the only person who could hit me -- if anyone else did they would have to answer to him. By now the guards had been locked out by management and the jail was being run by the management staff. That meant minimal yard but everything else back to normal. The food seemed to be better and seemed to be prepackaged and the warden would come and talk to each dorm so things were peaceful. A few days later I got released. I hung out with Dusty twice, Jay once and Steve we were suppose to go out but then something came up and we never rescheduled.