Interviews about death

-Interviuri despre moarte

Death, being a subject that one can really only speculate on at best, is considered to be one of the
great mysteries of life. It is the end for every existing creature on this planet, and neither king nor
beggar is spared from its clutches.

I decided to talk to two people who I considered to be among the most intelligent living
philosophers around at the time to see what their individual perspectives were on the subject. I
put together a list of questions and conducted each of these interviews separately. The answers
were quite interesting, to say the least.

Robert Anton Wilson, co-author of the legendary Illuminatus! Trilogy , has written extensively
on everything from parallel dimensions and their relation to quantum physics (Schrodingers Cat
Trilogy), the use of psychedelics during love making to perpetuate mystical experiences (Sex and
Drugs); the dogmatic and sometimes religious restrictions of the scientific community (The New
Inquisition)
Doctor Timothy Leary, famous for being the man who told the world to Turn on, tune in, and
drop out during the sixties by experimenting with various consciousness expanding chemicals,
was still extremely active in the area of rapid brain change and altered states of awareness when
this interview was conducted.
His classic books The Politics of Ecstasy and The Psychedelic Experience, along with his
fascinating biography Flashbacks, all the way up to his video work with digital artists
Retinalogic (How To Operate Your Brain) provide us with a body of work so vast and brilliant
that it was no surprise that he had gained the esteem of so many generations of artists, writers,
and thinkers.
HH: The only thing we are fairly certain of is that death is a change. Do you think it is a change
into Nothingness or a change into something else?

TIMOTHY LEARY: Nothingness or something else? (laughs) I think the way you approach and
navigate your own death or de-animation is the most important thing you have to do in life. Im
delighted that this issue is becoming public. Its of interest to me because Im 73; and living in
the 20th century as I have, I suddenly find myself, in my senility, right on the frontier of whats
become a new public issue involving individual choice as opposed to state and religious control.
One of my students at Harvard, Ralph Von Ekarthburg, died about six months ago. He wrote
essays about dying which moved me deeply. One of the points he was making, and I certainly
agree with it, is that immortality is, in a sense, leaving some living aspects of yourself that are
replicated from generation to generation. For example, the funeral is a time when people come to
re-animate the corpse in the extent that: See here I am talking about this person now He
lives and is being recorded into this electrical appliance. Ralph Von Ekarthburg made that
obvious point. Thats not Nothingness. Thats something else.

ROBERT ANTON WILSON: Well, my answer to that is like what a Zen Master I heard about
from Wavy Gravy once said. Somebody asked the Zen Master, What happens after death? He
said, I dont know. And they said, But youre a Zen Master! He said Yes, but Im not a
dead Zen Master! Confucious has a similar remark in which he says, First we should try to
understand the living before we try to understand the dead. Im working on trying to understand
the living.

HH: Do you feel that other cultures prepare their societies for death better than Western
cultures do? That certain cultures such as the Tibetans or Egyptians, for example, promote a
more positive outlook on death by bringing it out into the open more and not establishing such a
fear of the unknown?

RAW: I distrust cross-cultural comparisons. I think every culture has certain virtues and certain
defects. Our culture is not unanimous. We have what historian Crane Brinton called
Multanimity. We have evolved into this from the time the Papacy started breaking down when
Luther hung his 95 Theses on the door of the church. From that point on Western civilization has
been breaking more and more into Multanimity rather than Unanimity. We have lots of people
who are Humanists, Secularists, etc. We have a lot of people who are still loyal Catholics, 150
different kinds of Protestants and weve got an increasing Buddhist population in this country.
There are more Buddhists than Jews! This rather surprised me. Everybody says Catholic-
Protestant-Jew are the three major religions, but its not true anymore. Catholic-Protestant-
Buddhist are the top three, and Agnostic is coming in fourth place. Im delighted that I got into
4th place! The Jews are 5th. With this kind of Multanimity, I dont see what you can say about
our attitudes towards death. Define our. The Salvation Army refers to death as promotion to
glory, and I think thats the basic Western attitude, except of course for those that are afraid of
Hell and the tiny minority who feel we enter oblivion, and the Buddhist minority who feel we
enter joyous oblivion.

TL: I think other cultures prepare their societies for death better than Western culture does. Its
because monotheistic religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam are religions of control,
domination and totalitarianism. So naturally they are going to train us to think that if someone is
severely injured, you call the ambulance, and if the person is Catholic, you call the priest. They
come like black vultures circling around the corpse. To make sure that the Catholic church
controls the conception, they control choice abortion and they fanatically control dying
Prolonged death. Sacrament.

HH: In what way do you feel that death is related to enlightenment?

TL: I have written about this for 25 years. Its clich to repeat the ancient perception that people
who have a near death experience report that their life flashed through their consciousness as
they came close to this bright light they entered the tunnel and sensed not a tragedy, but a
sense of triumph. This is interesting because these are people who would interpret neurologically
the body sending signals to the brain saying Hey, were turning off here! Were dying! At that
moment, like a computer, your dying program clicks up. At that moment youre out of your
mind. Youre out of your body , and your brain is delighted! Because your bodys been such a
drag all these years shitting and feeding and all that. What that means is just as people say
during a psychedelic experience, you relive billions of years of evolution, with mystic experience
its the same thing. It seems obvious that many people, when their bodies are signaling their
brains to fall over, have a full blown classic mystical experience. You have a hundred billion
neurons saying VROOM! Suddenly youve got all this stuff going on in your brain that would
confuse you if you had to drive cars or get toilet paper to wipe your ass. Thats one of the
obvious things about any experience that knocks out the mind and the word processing system to
get Timelessness. The Tibetan Book of The Dead was the first insight I had into this, which we
re-did in 1964-1965. This book tells you the stages of de-animation.

RAW: There is some kind of similarity. I think every kind of extreme expanded consciousness,
or degrees of expanded consciousness, partakes a lot of what people who have had near death
experiences describe. The film Fearless (with Jeff Bridges) is a fascinating study of someone
who has been through a near death experience. It leaves Jeff Bridges character in a state that is
very similar to that of advanced mystics, only not quite, because he wasnt in the mystical
context of a lot of training. So hes got his own weird slant on it, which is what happens to a lot
of people who get shoved into those altered states unexpectedly and have to figure out for
themselves what it means. I think being threatened by death is a really horrible learning
experience. Dr. Johnson said that Being sentenced to death centers your mind like no other
experience.

HH: Do you feel there is a relation between death and orgasm?

RAW: Obviously. The Elizabethans Shakespeare, John Donne a lot of them use death as a
metaphor for orgasm. Orgasm was called Little Death. Yes, there really is a similarity between
near death experiences, orgasm and drugs like LSD. They all knock out your usual ego into non-
ego states of awareness.

TL: What do you mean by orgasm? If youre talking about the climax of sexual experience, then
the orgasm is a brief period of convulsive mindlessness which causes great pleasure. There are
many kinds of orgasms. Basically its a neurological state which can knock your mind out.
Youre out of your mind with sexual pleasure. The plumbing involved with orgasm is a
wonderful thing. The great thing about the orgasm is that (ideally) it involves two or more
people. If youre lying in bed dying or if youre in the Himalayas having a religious experience,
youre usually alone. The great thing about orgasm is that its a lovable and wonderful thing to
do with somebody else. A basic of all quantum physics and Socratic philosophy is: Do it with a
friend! Theres nothing as sad as someone having an orgasm by themselves. Whether it is mental
or neurological do it with a friend! Arthur Kessler, a Hungarian writer who was in Nazi
prisons and Stalins prisons, he wrote a great deal about evolution and about self-deliverance and
he and his wife died at the same time in each others arms. They left a note to the maid on the
door saying: Dont bother coming up as they were planning their suicide.

HH: Do you feel that the Judeo-Christian ideas of Redemption and Salvation might be
attributed to the individuals ability to let go of Ego without fear at the moment between life and
death? If not, what are your opinions on these concepts? Is there a Heaven and Hell?

TL: Oh, thats an impossible non-issue there! Its all bable words anyway! Number one, when
you say Judeo-Christian, you should say Judeo-Christian-Islamic, because those are the three
monotheistic religions, and they all stem from Judaism. Its not considered correct in America to
say Judeo-Christian-Islamic because youre granting the Arabs a plot to have a religion of their
own with different code numbers. Even though throughout most of Christianity theyve been
very anti-Semitic, Judeo-Christian is still considered a politically correct statement. All three
of these religions say you must totally submit to the One God. The very word Islam means
submission. The word monotheism means totalitarianism: God and the priests control every
aspect of your life; conception, pregnancy and dying.

RAW: I very much doubt a Hell because it sort of makes a bad joke out of life. Who created
Hell? Presumably God, or the Devil did it with Gods permission and supervision. I dont believe
in that kind of God or that kind of Devil. Whos in Hell anyway? The universe has so many, as
Carl Sagan says, billions and billions of galaxies with billions and billions of star systems,
most of which probably have planets with all sorts of life forms why would God (presuming
there is some sort of God behind all of this) pick us out of the whole universe and decide that if it
didnt like our behavior its going to torture us for an infinite number of years? I cant believe in
that. I mean, the ordinary Sadists get tired after a certain period of time and have to rest. The idea
of a Divinity so sadistic that it can go on for an infinite number of years torturing creatures from
one planet is obviously the delusion of some kind of paranoid and unbalanced individual.
Theres still a lot of nuts around, and they start religions. People who get unbalanced in certain
ways get followers who believe in their paranoid visions, but I dont. If you left it up to me, I
cant think of anybody I would put in Hell. There are some people I would put in prison for life
because they are too dangerous to be allowed to wander loose, but I wouldnt put them in Hell
for an infinite number of years! Thats unbelievably sadistic! Even the Marquis de Sade read
books, wrote books, went to the opera, etc. He didnt spend all his time torturing people, which is
what this God is supposed to be doing.

HH: In what ways do you feel the media has shaped our perception of death?

RAW: The movies, television, popular novels the popular media entertainment fiction tends to
accept the Judeo-Christian belief, with very little emphasis on Hell and a lot on Heaven. Every
now and then they toy with reincarnation. The news media tends to be Coverse Humanist, and
they regard death as absolutely the end, falling into oblivion, extinction lights out. I think it
tends to give people a sense of ruthlessness and alienation. The kind of attitude you tend to get in
a lot of modern European writers like Beckett and others from the more absurdist school. I felt
that way up until I took LSD, and then suddenly it seemed to me that all beliefs are uncertain and
for all I know I might go on after death in some other form. I just dont know! Maybe Ill
become extinct. Maybe Ill transform into something else that I can imagine like a cow. Or
something I cant even imagine like a point of light in infinity.


TL: Media is the modes of communication and the words used. All three totalitarian religions
have totally censored the words you use. The Islamics put five million dollars on the head of
Salman Rushdie because he said three or four sentences in a book printed in English about Allah.
Yes, the control of words and the control over the modes of communication media is what
totalitarian religions hope to establish.

The LA Times, in the front page article by their medical writer, said that tobacco is the Number
One Killer. It attacked tobacco, it attacked another culprit alcohol. Turns out cocaine is way
down on the list. They use words like culprit, preventing death, fundamental What they
were basically saying was that sex, drugs and rock and roll kill you, and you can prevent death
HH: Have you had any personal experiences with the paranormal in relation to death? For
example, have you ever seen ghosts, had past life regressions, contacted or channeled spirits? If
not, do you feel this type of experience is possible?

RAW: I have never had the experience of contacting the dead. I have had experiences that I
estimate that I evaluate as ESP. They can always be explained away as coincidence, and its an
endless argument, but to me it seemed like ESP. Ive had a lot of synchronicity, much more than
most people who study Jung. Everybody who studies Jung has some synchronicities, but I seem
to get them in boatloads.

One psychic told me I sometimes channel a medieval Irish bard; another told me I sometimes
channel an ancient Chinese Taoist philosopher, an alchemist. I think every writer channels
Entities and I suspect we all have thousands of Entities within each of us that can function as
they were independent spirits. I dont believe in the single ego. I think we have multiple egos and
when one starts communicating were likely to think its the spirit of the dead or something like
that, but its just another part of ourselves.

HH: Have you had any near death experiences? If you have, describe them. Did they affect
your outlook on life?

TL: I have a near death experience every morning when I wake up! (laughs) I review the
whole situation and I groan, until I get a cup of coffee and a cigarette. Many experiences that
Ive had with LSD and Ketamine have been out of the body. The most powerful aspect of any
altered state experience is alienation. Thats what the bad trip on LSD is about, when youe
totally alienated. Alienation. The totalitarian monotheists say that Hell is being alienated from
God. In a way theyre right, but to me divinity is in every human being, so the ultimate Hell for
me is to be alienated from other human beings.

RAW: Yes. Ive been in two auto crashes and the outstanding thing that struck me was how calm
I became when I thought I was about to die. I think Hollywood generally gives the wrong picture
of how people behave under stress when theres a plane disaster in a movie and everyones
screaming. I dont think anybody has energy to scream. You go very much into yourself and you
get very calm. At least that is what happened to me when I was in the car accidents. Ive had
experiences with Ketamine that definitely suggested to me that I had left my body and entered
another form, which is rather vague but I dont want to be dogmatic about it by saying I was
traveling in the astral plane or something like that. All I know is that it was a non-body
experience. I think that occurs much more often than we used to think like the out-of-body
experiences that people have on operating tables or when they are wounded in the war. It
happened to Hemingway in World War I when he was wounded. Those things are very
interesting and very suggestive and give me the feeling that if I dont live long enough to see the
Longevity Revolution, I still may survive in some other form.
Web bibliografie : http://www.howardhallis.com/bis/deathinterviews/

Moartea, fiind un subiect despre care doar se poate citi sau specula, este considerat a fi unul
dintre cele mai mari mistere ale lumii. Reprezinta sfarsitul fiecarei fiinte de pe acest pamant incat
nici printul nici cersetorul nu scapa din ghearele mortii.
M-am hotarat sa vorbesc cu niste persoane pe care le consider a fi printre cei mai inteligenti
filosofi in viata la momentul actual, pentru a auzi care sunt perspectivele lor in ceea ce priveste
acest subiect. Am realizat o lista de intrebari si am purtat aceste interviuri separat. Raspunsurile
au fost unele foarte interesante.
Robert Anton Wilson, co-autor a legendarei trilogii Iluminatus, a scris foarte mult despre
dimensiuni paralele si relatia cu fizica cuantica, (Schrodingers Cat Trilogy), uzul de substante
halucinogene in timpul actului sexual pentru a perpetua experiente mistice, (Sex and Drugs);
restrictiile dogmatice si uneori religioase ale comunitatii stiintifice(The New Inquisition).
Doctor Timothy Leary, faimos pentru replica spusa intregii lumi: Indreaptate catre, Intra,
Renunta( Turn on, turn in, drop out) din anii 60, prin experimentarea cu diverse chimicale de
extindere a constiintei, care era inca activ in sfera de schimbare rapida a creierului si stari alterate
de cunostinta, cand acest interviu a avut loc. Cartile sale Politica de extasy si Experienta
Halucinogena, impreuna cu fascinanta sa biografie Amintiri pana la opera sa video cu artisti
digitali Retinologic( Cum sa-ti operezi creierul) ne ofera o masa de cunostinte atat de vaste si
ingenioase incat nu e de mirare ca a castigat admiratia a generatii de artisti, scriitori, ganditori.
HH: Singurul lucru de care suntem atat de siguri este ca moartea reprezinta schimbare.
Considerati ca este o schimbare in nimic sau o schimbare in altceva?
TIMOTHY LEARY: Nimic sau altceva? (rade). Consider ca modul de abordare si dirijare a
propriei morti sau inexistente este cel mai important lucru pe care trebuie sa-l faci in viata. Ma
bucura tare ca problema asta a devenit publica. Este de interes pentru mine deoarece am 73 de
ani si traiesc in secolul XX, ca si pana acum, deodata ma regasesc, in senilitatea mea, la frontiera
dintre ceea ce a devenit o problema publica ce implica alegerea individuala, opusa controlului
religios si de stat. Unul dintre studentii mei de la Harvard, Ralph Von Ekarthburg, a murit acum
sase luni. A scris eseuri despre moarte care m-au miscat profund. Unul dintre lucrurile pe care le
pusese in lumina, si cu care sunt total de acord, este ca imortalitatea este, intr-un fel, sa lasi
aspecte vii de-ale tale sa se transmita din generatii in generatii. De exemplu inmormantarea
reprezinta un moment in care oamenii vin sa reinsufleteasca cadavrul, la dimensiunea la care:
Vezi acum vorbesc despre aceasta persoana..Traieste si este inregistrat in dispozitivul electric.
Ralph a stiu sa evidentieze acest lucru. Asta e nimic. Asta e ceva.
ROBERT ANTON WILSON: Ei bine, raspunsul meu este ca acela al unui Maestru Zen, pe care
l-am auzit de la Wavy Gravy. Cineva l-a intrebat pe Maestrul Zen: ce se intampla dupa
moarte? Si el a raspuns: Nu stiu. Si ei au spus:Dar esti un Maestru Zen. Iar el a
raspuns:Da, dar nu sunt un Maestru Zen mort! Confucius are o vorba asemanatoare: Mai intai
ar trebui sa intelegem fiintele vii, ca apoi sa le intelegem pe cele moarte.Acum lucrez la a-i
intelege pe cei vii.
HH: Considerati ca celelalte culturi isi pregatesc societatile pentru moarte mai bine decat o
fac culturile vestice? Acele culturi precum cea Tibentana si cea Egipteana, de exemplu,
promoveaza o perspectiva mult mai pozitiva despre moarte, punand-o mai mult in lumina
si nu creeaza o frica a necunoscutului?
Raw: Nu am incredere in comparatiile interculturale. Consider ca fiecare cultura are atat calitati
cat si defecte. Cultura noastra nu este unanima. Avem ceea ce cronicarul Crane Brinton numea
multanimitate". Am evoluat catre aceasta de cand papalitatea a suferit o infrangere atunci cand
Luther a agatat cele 95 de Teze de usa bisericii. Incepand cu acel moment civilizatia vestica a
cazut din ce in ce mai mult in Multanimitate decat in Unanimitate. Avem foarte multi oameni
care sunt umanisti, secularisti etc. Avem foarte multi oameni care inca mai sunt catolici loiali,
150 de Protestanti de tipuri diferite si avem o populatie budista in crestere in aceasta tara. Sunt
mai multi budisti decat evrei! Acest fapt m-a surprins intr-o oarecare masura. Toti spun ca cele
trei religii majoritare sunt Catolici-Protestanti-Evrei, dar acest fapt nu mai este de actualitate.
Catolici-Protestanti-Budisti sunt pe primele locuri si pe al patrulea se afla Agnosticii. Ma incanta
faptul ca am ajuns pe locul patru! Evreii sunt pe locul cinci. Cu genul asta de Multanimintate, nu
stiu ce-ai putea spune despre atitudinea noastra in ceea ce priveste moartea. Defineste a noastra.
Armata Salvarii vede moartea ca pe o promovare catre glorie si consider ca aceasta este
atitudinea vestica de baza, cu exceptia celor care se tem de Iadsi mica minoritate care crede ca
am intrat in inconstienta si minoritatea budista care crede ca am intrat in inconstienta fericita.
TL: Consider ca celelalte culturi isi pregatesc societatile pentru moarte mai bine decat o face
cultura vestica. Pentru ca religiile monoteiste precum Iudaismul, Crestinismul si Islamismul sunt
religii de control, dominatie si totalitarism. Cu lejeritate ei ne vor instrui sa credem ca atunci
cand cineva este grav ranit, chemi ambulanta, si daca persoana respectiva este catolica, chemi
preotul. Sunt exact precum vulturii negrii ce dau tarcoale unui cadavru. Pentru a se asigura ca
biserica Catolica controleaza procrearea, ei controleaza alegereaavortulsi in mod fanatic
controleaza moarteamoartea prelungita. Juramantul solemn.


HH: In ce fel considerati ca moartea este legata de iluminare?
TL: Scriu despre asta de 25 de ani. Consider cliseic sa repet vechea senzatie pe care oamenii
aflati in pragul mortii o au si anume aceea ca intreaga lor viata le-a trecut prin fata ochilor pe
masura ce s-au apropiat de o lumina stralucitoareau patruns in tunel si n-au simtit tragedia ci
sentimentul de triumf. Lucrul acesta este foarte interesant deoarece genul asta de persoane ar
interpreta din punct de vedere neurologic semnalele pe care corpul le trimite creierului spunand:
Hey ne stingem aici! Murim! In acel moment, precum un computer, apare programul de stingere.
In acel moment nu mai ai judecata. Nu mai ai corp, iar creierul tau este incantat! Pentru ca trupul
tau a fost o piedica in toti acei ani...facandu-ti nevoile si manacand...si toate cele. Asta inseamna
ca, exact cum spun cei ce traiesc o experienta halucinogena, retraiesti bilioane de ani de evolutie,
cu experienta mistica este acelasi lucru. Pare evident faptul ca foarte multi, atunci cand corpul lor
trimite semnale creierului sa se stinga, au parte de o experienta mistica clasica pe deplin. Ai o
suta de bilioane de neuroni spunand: Vruuum! Iti trec atatea lucruri prin minte, incat te vor
deruta daca va trebui sa conduci o masina, sau sa folosesti hartia igienica. Asta e unul dintre
lucrurile cele mai evidente cu privire la o experienta menita sa-ti dea peste cap creierul si
sistemul de procesare a cuvintelor pentru a obtine Eternitatea. Cartea Tibetana a Vietii si a
Mortii este prima revelatie pe care am avut-o despre acest lucru, pe care am citit-o in 1964-1965.
Aceasta carte vorbeste despre stadiile pe care le parcurge sufletul pentru a obtine iluminarea.

RAW: Exista o oarecare similaritate. Consider ca orice tip de constiinta extinsa extrema, sau
grade de constiinta extinsa seamana foarte mult cu ceea ce descriu oamenii care s-au aflat in
pragul mortii. Filmul Fearless cu (Jeff Briges) reprezinta un studiu fascinant despre un om care a
fost pe punctul de a muri. Personajul interpretat de Jeff Briges se afla intr-un stadiu similar cu cel
al misticelor avansate, numai ca nu destul de, intrucat el nu se afla intr-un context mistic
antrenat. Asa ca el isi face propria ciudata parere despre asta, ceea ce se intampla multor oameni
aflati in aceste stadii alterate din intamplare si trebuie sa-si dea seama singuri ce inseamna.
Consider ca a fi amenintat de moarte este o experienta teribila de invatare. Dr. Johnson spunea:
A fi condamnat la moarte iti centreaza mintea cum nu o face nicio alta experienta.
HH: Considerati ca exista o legatura intre moarte si orgasm?
RAW: Evident. Shakespeare in Elizabethan, John Donne, multi folosesc moartea ca metafora
pentru orgasm. Orgasmul a fost numit Mica Moarte. Da, chiar exista o similaritate intre
experiente in pragul mortii, orgasm si droguri precum LSD. Toate iti inlocuiesc ego-ul obisnuit
cu stadii de constientizare a non-eului.
TL : La ce te referi cand spui orgasm? Daca te referi la apogeul experientei sexuale, atunci
orgasmul este o scurta perioada de convulsie lipsita de ratiune ce produce o imensa placere.
Exista mai multe feluri de orgasm. In principiu este un stadiu neurologic care iti poate da peste
cap mintea. Esti lipsit de ratiune atunci cand experimentezi placerea sexuala. Controlul
verticalitatii impreunat cu orgasmul este un lucru minunat. Un lucru foarte tare la orgasm este ca
in principiu implica doua persoane. Daca stai intins in pat si esti pe moarte sau te afli in
Himalaya intr-o experienta religioasa, esti de regula singur. Ceea ce face ca orgasmul sa fie
minunat este ca reprezinta un lucru dragut si foarte frumos pe care il poti experimenta in doi. Un
principiu al fizicii cuantice si al filosofiei lui Socrate este: Fa-o cu un prieten. Nu e nimic mai
trist decat cineva care are un orgasm de unul singur. Fie ca este mental sau neurologic fa-o cu un
prieten! Arthur Kessler, un scriitor ungur, care s-a aflat in inchisorile naziste si staliniste, a scris
un lucru foarte interesant despre evolutie si auto-eliberare, iar el si sotia sa au murit in acelasi
timp unul in bratele celuilalt. Au lasat un bilet ingrijitoarei la usa in care ii spuneau: Nu te
deranja sa urci! in timp ce-si planuiau sinuciderea.
HH: Considerati ca ideile Iudeo-Crestine despre Mantuire si Salvare se datoreaza
capacitatii oamenilor de a renunta usor la propriul eu atunci cand se afla la cumpana
dintre viata si moarte? Daca nu care este opinia dumneavoastra despre acest concept?
Exista oare Rai si Iad?
TL: Oh, este o non-problema imposibila acolo! Este un cuvant neadecvat totusi! In primul rand
cand spui Iudeo-Crestin, ar trebui sa spui Iudeo-Crestin-Islamic, pentru ca astea sunt cele trei
religii monoteiste si toate provin din Iudaism. In America nu este corect sa folosesti Iudeo-
Crestin-Islamic pentru ca le permiti arabilor sa urzeasca o religie a lor cu diferite numere de cod.
Chiar daca de-a lungul aproape intregii perioade de Crestinism au fost anti-semiti, Iudeo-Crestin
este o denumire considerata inca valida din punct de vedere politic. Toate cele trei religii sustin
ca trebuie sa te supui unui singur Dumnezeu. Insusi cuvantul Islam simbolizeaza supunere.
Cuvantul monotheism simbolizeaza totalitarism: Dumnezeu si preotii iti controleaza orice aspect
al vietii: procreare, sarcina, moarte.
RAW: Ma indoiesc ca exista un Iad, deoarece intr-un fel ia in ras viata. Cine a creat Iadul? Se
presupune ca Dumnezeu, sau diavolul cu permisiunea si sub supravegherea lui Dumnezeu. Nu
cred in genul asta de Dumnezeu sau genul asta de Diavol. Cine se duce in Iad? Dupa cum spune
si Carl Sagan, universul are foarte multe, bilioane de galaxii, cu bilioane si bilioane de sisteme de
stele, din care majoritatea au planete cu tot felul de forme de viata De ce Dumnezeu
(presupunand ca exista un Dumnezeu in spatele acestor lucruri) ne alege din tot universul si
decide in cazul in care ii displace comportamentul nostru, sa ne tortureze un numar infinit de
ani? Nu pot sa cred in asta. Vreau sa spun ca, sadicii obisnuiti obosesc dupa o anumita perioada
si trebuie sa se odihneasca. Ideea unei divinitati atat de sadice ce poate tortura ani de-a randuri
creaturi de pe planeta noastra, este evident halucinatia unui gen de individ paranoic si
dezechilibrat. Totusi sunt o groaza de nebuni care creeaza religii. Oameni dezechilibrati in
anumite privinte isi procura invatacei care sa creada in viziunile lor paranormale, dar eu nu!
Daca m-ai pune pe mine sa aleg, nu stiu pe cine as putea trimite in Iad. Sunt unele persoane pe
care le-as trimite in inchisoare pe viata pentru ca sunt mult prea periculoase pentru a li se permite
sa umble liber, dar nu le-as trimite in Iad pentru un infinit numar de ani! Asta e incredibil de
sadic! Pana si Marchizul de Sade, citea carti, scria carti, mergea la opera, etc. Nu si-a petrecut tot
timpul vietii torturand oameni, ceea ce se presupune ca ar trebui sa faca acest zeu.



HH: In ce fel considerati ca mass-media a dat o forma conceptiei noastre despre moarte?
RAW: Filmele, televiziunea, romanele celebremass-media cunoscuta de entertainment tinde
sa accepte credinta Iudeo-Crestina, punand mai putin accent pe Iad si mai mult pe Rai. Din cand
in cand jongleaza cu reincarnarea. Stirile din mass-media tind a fi Converse Humanist si privesc
moartea ca pe un sfarsit absolut, caderea in intunericime, distrugerea, stingerea. Consider ca
tinde sa-i faca pe oameni nemilosi si sa se indeparteze. Genul asta de atitudine tinzi sa o vezi
foarte des la scriitorii europeni moderni precum Beckett si altii de la o scoala mai mult decat
absurda. M-am simtit asa pana cand am luat LSD si apoi dintr-o data mi se parea ca toate
convingerile sunt incerte si pentru toate stiu ca poate voi continua si dupa moarte intr-o alta
forma. Pur si simplu nu stiu! Poate voi muri. Poate ma voi transforma in ceva ce-mi pot imagina,
precum o vaca. Sau ceva ce nu-mi pot imagina cum ar fi un punct de lumina in infinit.
TL: Mass-media reprezinta modul de comunicare si de uz al cuvantului. Toate cele trei religii
totalitare au cenzurat cuvintele pe care le folosesti. Islamicii au pus cinci milioane de dolari pe
capul lui Salman Rushdie pentru ca a scris trei sau patru fraze intr-o carte tiparita in engleza
despre Allah. Intradevar controlul cuvintelor reprezinta controlul asupra modalitatilor de
comunicaremass-media este ceea ce religiile totalitare spera sa intemeieze. LA Times in
articolul de pe prima pagina, scris de catre redactorul lor medic, spunea ca tutunul reprezinta
asasinul numarul unu! Atacau tutunun..atacau alt vinovat: alcoolul. Se pare ca cocaina era cu
mult in josul listei. Foloseau cuvinte precum:vinovat, sa previi moartea,
fundamentalCeea ce spuneau de fapt, era ca sexul, drogurile si rock&roll-ul te omoara si ca
poti preveni moartea
HH: Ati avut vreo experienta personala legata de paranormal si moarte? De exemplu ati
vazut vreodata fantome, ati avut regresii din trecut, ati contactat spirite? Daca nu
considerati ca o astfel de experienta este posibila?
RAW: Niciodata nu am intrat in contact cu mortii. Am avut parte de experiente pe care le
cataloghez drept ESP. Ele pot fi oricand considerate drept coincidente si este o discutie la
nesfarsit, dar mie mi s-a parut a fi ESP. Am simtit o foarte mare sincronicitate, mult mai mult
decat cei ce il studiaza pe Jung. Toti cei care il studiaza pe Jung au parte de cateva sincronicitati.
Dar eu simt ca am parte de o multime. Un medium mi-a spus o data ca transmit semnalele unui
poet medieval irlandez. Un altul mi-a spus ca uneori transmit semnalele unui filosof chinez
taoist, un alchimist. Consider ca orice scriitor transmite semnalele unor Entitati si am banuiala
ca toti avem sute de Entitati in noi care pot functiona ca si cum ar fi spirite libere. Nu cred intr-
un singur eu. Consider ca avem mai multe euri si cand unul din ele incepe sa comunice credem
mai degraba ca este spiritual unui mort sau ceva de genu, cand de fapt este o parte din noi.


HH: Ati avut parte de experiente in pragul mortii? Daca da, descrieti-le. V-au afectat
viziunea despre viata?
TL: Am parte de o astfel de experienta in fiecare dimineata cand ma trezesc (rade)! Meditez
asupra intregii situatii si oftez, pana cand imi iau ceasca de cafea si tigara. Multe din experientele
pe care le-am trait cu LSD si Ketamine au fost in afara trupului. Cel mai puternic aspect al
oricarui stadiu de experienta modificat este alienarea. Despre asta e vorba cand ne referim la
calatoria neplacuta cu LSD, cand esti total alienat. Alienarea. Monoteistii totalitari spun ca
Iadul este indepartat de Dumnezeu. Intr-un fel au dreptate, dar pentru mine divinitate se afla in
fiecare om, asa ca cel mai groaznic Iad pentru mine este sa fiu indepartat de alte fiinte umane.

RAW: Da. Am fost implicat in doua accidente de masina si uimitorul lucru care m-a dat peste
cap a fost cat de calm am devenit atunci cand am crezut ca sunt pe cale sa mor. Consider ca
Hollywood-ul ofera o imagine gresita despre cum oamenii reactioneaza sub presiune atunci cand
se prabuseste un avion intr-un film si toata lumea tipa. Nu cred ca mai are nimeni atunci energie
sa urle. Te cufunzi foarte tare in interior si devii foarte calm. Cel putin asa mi s-a intamplat mie
cand am avut acele accidente de masina. Am avut experiente cu Ketamina ce mi-au lasat
impresia ca mi-am parasit corpul si am capatat alta forma, insa este foarte vag si nu vreau sa par
dogmatic spunand ca ma aflam intr-o calatorie cu un avion astral sau ceva de genu. Tot ce stiu
este ca a fost o experienta fara corp. Consider ca asta se intampla mult mai des decat ne putem
noi imagina- precum experientele fara corp pe care oamenii le au pe mesele de operatie sau cand
sunt raniti in razboi. I s-a intamplat lui Hemingway in Primul Razboi Mondial cand a fost ranit.
Lucrurile astea sunt foarte interesante si sugestive si-mi dau senzatia ca daca nu apuc sa traiesc
sa vad Revolutia Longevitatii, tot o sa supravietuiesc intr-o oarecare forma.

Concluzie: In urma cercetarii realizate pe tema mortii am analizat declaratiile celor doi filosofi si
am constatat ca moartea a trecut de la stadiul de subiect tabu la unul foarte actual si de mare
interes. Unicitatea sa si incertitudinea pe care o sadeste in mintea tuturor sunt principalele motive
pentru care viata dupa moarte a devenit o problema despre care societatea contemporana doreste
a se informa cat mai in detaliu. Calatoria si procesul prin care sufletul trece imediat ce paraseste
trupul a reusit sa starneasca in ultima perioada interesul a milioane de oameni, drept dovada
Cartea tibetana a vietii si a mortii, pe care inclusiv eu am lecturat-o, se afla alaturi de alte carti cu
teme similare printre cele mai vandute. Atat din lectura cartii cat si din interviurile studiate este
evident faptul ca oamenii trebuie sa-si pregateasca inca din timpul vietii modul de abordare si
dirijare a propriei mortii si ca trebuie mai intai inteleasa viata pentru a putea intelege moartea.
Cartea tibetana a vietii si a mortii incearca sa explice faptul ca moartea trebuie considerata un
lucru firesc si ca trebuie sa ne pregatim din timp pentru aceasta etapa prin care vom trece.
Faptul ca moartea nu reprezinta un subiect care inspira teama reiese si din aceste doua interviuri.
Diferenta dintre culturi in ceea ce priveste moartea consta in faptul ca unele culturi, de regula
cele vestice se axeaza mai mult pe pregatirea oamenilor pentru moarte facand din aceasta un
lucru pozitiv, firesc de care nimeni nu trebuie sa se teama. In schimb culturile vestice au o
viziune mai ingusta in ceea ce priveste moartea si viata de dupa moarte, promovand totodata cu
ajutorul mass-mediei o imagine negativa a mortii. Punand accentul pe antagonia dintre Rai si Iad,
incearca oarecum sa.i faca pe oamenii sa-si orienteze actiunile in functie de locul in care vor
ajunge dupa moartea lor. (se merge pe ideea daca faci lucruri bune, ajungi in rai, daca savarsesti
lucruri rele vei ajunge in iad). Senzatia pe care multi au avut-o in urma unor situatii critice in
care au fost pe punctul de a-si pierde viata, este creionata ca un film ce trece prin fata ochilor in
care rememorezi toate momentele prin care ai trecut de-a lungul vietii. Cu toate ca nu am
experimentat o astfel de senzatie, eu o percep ca fiind un moment in care aflandu-te in situatia de
a nu putea face nimic altceva decat sa gandesti sis a te gandesti, reprezinta un factor declansator
in care realizezi ca viata este cel mai important lucru pe care il posezi, constientizezi
vulnerabilitatea ei si inveti s-o pretuiesti mai mult ca niciodata. Si atunci consideri ca ai dobandit
Iluminarea! Declaratiile celor doi filosofi sustin aceasta idee.
In incheiere voi mentiona faptul ca viata trebuie traita si pretuita la adevarata ei valoare si ca nu
trebuie sa ne lasam influentati de moartea iminenta pe care o vom suferi, acest lucru fiind unul
firesc. Pentru orice exista un inceput si un sfarsit! Consider foarte utile informatiile dobandite in
urma lecturii Cartii tibetane a vietii si a mortii dar si a cercetarii realizate intrucat am reusit sa
aflu lucruri noi care cu siguranta imi vor fi de folos intr-o buna zi.