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rTHE
ur breath for
h te perod of you sitting and practce sha-taza the other half,
but you can't do them simultaneously.
128 / YAS UTANI
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s I NTERVIEWS WITH WES TERNERS
STUENT: I have been tng to do jut tat-Wuccesful y, I
might add. I also ted coutng my breath only, but was uable to
do even that.
ROS:: You must not cout absent-midedly, as tough i a dz.
You must pou you whole heart into it. You must se each number
clearly and sharply. Did you lose cout sometmes?
STUDENT: Ye, sir. Perhaps my trouble is that I don't s te con
necton between coutng the breath ad Buddhism.
ROSH: The pupose in couting the breath is to stl te ceaseless
waves of tought st in moton by habits of tg whch have
persisted for a long tme. With teir quietg, te mind becomes one
poited ad we ca ten drectly perceive our Essential-nature. Cout
ig the breath is a necessar frst step. Aother method is to keep
questionng, "What is my True-nate? " or "Where is my True
natre? " But uness you have the fm conviction that you ca ds
cover your True-natue in ths wise, you practce will degenerate
into a mere mechanical repetton ad your efort wl be wasted.
You said you coud not s the conecton between coutng te
breat and Buddhism. The Budda taught tat only by direct ap
prehension of our Self-nature ca we actually know who and what
we are. The fndamental purty ad clarity of the mind is obscued
by te ceaseless waves of thought which pitch and toss about in it;
consequently we falsly see ourselves as idividual exstences con
fronted by a uverse of multiplicitie. Zaze is a means of stlg
tese wave so that our iier vision can be brought into accuate
focu, ad couting the breath is one type of zazen.
* * *
STDE: You have said tat I shoud put more energy ito my
sitting. I have tried to, but I can't concentrate for more tha feen
miutes before my mind begis to wander. Toward the end of the
last seI was able to concentate fairly well, but when I sat by
myselfl fell apart and could't for the lfe of me concntate.
ROSH: It is difcult to sit alone, especially i the beginng; tat
is why we have se. 0 '1 ual zazen is easier because there is
mutal support and reinon. nt. When you practce zzen rather
than listen to lectre aJout it, )r te fst tme you really taste Zen
and though this experience conae to true Self-uderstading. So sit
STUDENT G I I29
devotedly. You concentraton w become stonger and you w
feel better mentlly and physically.
* * *
STUDET: I would like to ask you once more about breathing. You
have explained to me how I sould cout my breats, but you haven't
yet explaed how I should follow tem. Would you do so, please?
Rosm: Aer you give up coutng your breaths the next step is
following them. Here you simply follow each inalaton with your
mind's eye witout allowing your attenton to become diverted.
When you exhale, do te same. That is all tere is to it.
STUE: What about te stomach? Should it go in and out? I
have heard tat te stomach instead of moving up and dow should
move in and out.
Rosm: Of couse tere are various breatg techiques. What
you are decribing i, I t, te way to breathe i certain types of
yoga. It may he satsfactor, but it is not te kind of breathng ad
vocated here. You should always keep your mid in the region below
te umbilicus. Your mind is at te spot where you put your atenton.
If you concentate on you fger your mid is at your fmger;
i on you leg, at tat place. Wit your mind concentrated below the
navel your vital energy gradually becomes stabized in tat region.
Feel here [pointing to his lower abdome] .
[Stdent places his hand where te roshi has idicated.]
When I put pressure tere it was hard, wasn't it?
STUET: It certaily was !
ROSHI: With your mind concentrated in that area over a long tme,
your energy easily and natrally settles there, because the center of
gravty no longer is in te vici.lty of the head and shoulders, and
you ca exet pressure in tat region at w. Since we are achored
dow as it were, we don't get angr and fy of te handle; our
toughts and emotons are uder natral contol.
STUDET: I have anoter queston. Is it so tat in te Soto sect
you walg is in harmony with your breathing?
Rosm: Yes. Wit one complete: " falation and exhalaton you
move te lef foot approxmately-- ! the length ?f the right, and
with the next breat you move t 1ght iO't half the lengt of the
left. The Rnzai way is to walk very fast.
130 1 YAS UTANI
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STUET: But at thee sesshin the method seems to be halfay be
te te Soto and te Rai.
Rosm: That's right. Here we ue the system of my techer,
Harada-roshi, who, having had extensive taing in R and bing
hsel fom te Soto sect, combined te two.
* * *
Rosm: Have you any questions?
STUET: Al I can say is that I am conued
Rosm: What is your confusion?
STUDET: I don't see the connecton betwee countng the breaths
and shan-tza.
Rosm: They are two diferent tgs, why look for a connecton?
Is your difculty tat you :nd countng your breaths too mehanical
and unteretg?
STUDE: Yes, I suppose that's it.
Rosm: There are many like you. Instead of countg your breat
or doing shikan-taza, it may be beter for you to ponder a question
le "What am I ? " or "Where did I come from? " or "Buddhism
teches that we are all innately perfect; in what way a I perfect?"
The techical Ze designaton for such questions is Horai no Mem
moku, "What was my Face before my parents were bor? "
STUDE: Is tat a koan?
Rosm: Yes. Hereafter stop countng your breths ad devote your
sl earestly to this koa.
* * *
Rosm: Have you any questions?
STUENT: I have no questons, but I would like to tell you some
ting. Last night I said to myself, "Forately I don't have to strive
for enightenmet, becaue I am already enlightened."
Rosm: Whe it is tue tat inately you are a Buddha, ut you
have concretely perceved your Budda-nature you are speaking i
borowed phrases when you speak of enlightenment. The purpose of
your practice is to lead you to tis experience.
STUENT: I would like to sit only with a feling of geuine grati
tude and not have to think about a koan.
Rosm: Ver wel, try sittig in shikan-taz. If you do it sincerely,
you wexperience ths feelg of grattude. It is a fact that when you
sit in te lotus posture as the Buddha sat and concentrate single-
S TUDENT G I 1 31
mndedly, a gradual unfoldment of you Buddha-hear takes place.
This is the expression of livg Buddism, from whch grows true
grattude. Moreover, eve tough you have no desre for eghten
ment, trough erest ad zeaous sittng you wl develop your
powers of concetaton and gain contol over your md and emo
tons, with the result that you physical and metal health wim
prove considerably.
* * *
STUENT: Before I came to ts temple I ued to t: "Ii go to
a sesshn ad do zazen, I w accumuate good karma." Now that I
am here I don't see where I a acquiing any merit at al.
Rosm: Whether you are aware of it or not, you are creatng good
karma al te tme you are here. Sittng embrace te three fnda
mental elements of Buddhism, namely, te precept, the power of
concentration, ad s tori-wisdom. It is obviou, of course, how con
centration i stengthened and mind stbiity deveoped; it may be
less obvious to you how your eye of tue wisdom is gradul y being
opened as your intrnsica y pue nate is cleased of its deluions and
deflemets i sincere and wholehearted sittng. As for the prepts.
clearly one ca't kl or steal or le dug zaze. I a profouder
sens, however, obserace of te precept i grouded in zazen, b
cau through zaen you are gradully riddng yourelf of the basic
delusion whch leads m to comt evi, namely, te deluion tat
te world and oneelf are separat and distnct. Ineretly there i no
such bifurcaton Te world doesn't std outide me-it is me! Ts
i the realzton of your Buddha-nature, out of which obseranc of
the precept naturally ad sponteously arss. To be sure, whe
you hav red you Real-self al ts w make see to you.
but wtout tt experiece what I have just said i hard to uder
stnd.
STDET: Well, I have no inteton of tryg to become eght
ened!
Rosm: That is all right too. To sit for the purpose of stregtheng
one's concentative powers is also worth whe.
STUDET: I t I am better of not seeng enghtenment.
Rosm: Zazen is the expression of lving Buddhsm. Sice you are
in ately a Buddha, your sitting, if it is ardent ad single-minded i the
actualizton of you Buddha-nate. That is true, to be sure.
132 / YAS UTANI
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S INTERVIEWS WI TH WESTERNERS
STDENT: I guess we can't disagree on aythng, can we [laugh
ing] ?
ROSH: Now go back to your place and apply yourself more sri
ouly.
* * *
STDENT: Ca you tell me what is most esental in shikan-taza?
ROSH: The quality of you sittng is of vital iporance. The back
must be staight and te mnd tut-ver watchl. A sagging body
creates a sagging mind, and vce versa. The mind mut be thoroughly
alert, yet not tense. If you look at the picture ofBodhidarma painted
by Sesshu and carefully stdy the eye, you wsee what I men.
Bodhidhara i doing shikan-tza. This is te degree of aleres re
quired: If you were sittng in one corer of a room doing shkan-taa
and a door on te oter side was quietly opened h a inch, you
would know it instntly.
* * *
STDENT: This wl be my last sesshin, as I have to ret to the
United States next mont. Will it be a right to tain uder a Soto
priet there?
Rosm: Yes, hut I would advis you not to be guided by him wit
repect to satori unless you are sure he is enghtened himel Vey
few Soto priests the days have realized ter Truenatre ad there
fore tey pooh-pooh te experence, saying in efect: "Sinc in pos
sessing te Buddha-mind we are a ierently enightened, why i
s tori necessay? " But tis argwnent is specious, becaue ut tey
have directly perceived ter Buddha-mind tey don't really know
that tey possess it.
STUET: The, is it possible for me to car on my practc wit
out a teacher?
ROSH: Wheter you have no teacher in America or only a medi
ocre one, you can contnue to discpline youself in Z by following
what you have leared at this temple. Any teacher, even a unen
lightened one, i able to superise your practce. He ca check you
posture, for instance, and your breathing, ad can guide you in other
respect. But he ought not t to pass on satori uless he hmse has
had it and it has bee veried by h techer.
STUET: Oh, ye, that remid me of somethng I wated to as
STUDENT H I 133
you. This morg in your lecre you spoke about the necessity of
havig one's enghtenment conrmed by one's teacher because only
in this way could corect Ze b tansmitted. I don't quite uder
stnd this. Why is it necessar to b autetcated by ayone?
ROSH: Starg fom the tme of te Budd Shayamuni, cor
rect Buddhism has been tansmited from techer to disciple. Where
te teacher's enightenmet has been authentc and sanctoned by his
teacher, he has been able to sancton te enighteet of h ow
discples by uing his ow experience of enlightenment as a guide.
You ask why this is necessary. It is necesay, frst of all, in order
to insure the transmission of tre Buddhsm fom teacher to disiple.
I tis hadn't been done, tere woud be no autetc Z today. Bu
the truth i, you ca never be sure by youself that what you take to
be satori actually is satori. Wit a first experience it is quite possible
to misjudge it.
STUDENT: But isn't enlightenment slf-authentcatng?
Rosm: No, it isn't. I fact, there are may example of persons
who became teachers wthout having enlightenment at al. It i like
a person searching alone for diamonds in the moutains. I he has
never seen a real diamond, he may t when he fmds glass or
quartz or some other mineral tat he has foud a genune diamond.
If he could verif his fnd through somebody who has had experience
with diamonds, he could be sure. Failing that, he could esy make
a mstake regardless of how brighdy his stones glittered.
STDENT: Ts buines of the tansmission fom te Buddh dow
to the presnt tme-it isn't rea y tre, is it? It's myth, isn't it?
Rosm: No, it i true. I you don't beieve it, tat's too bad
8
I
STUDENT H (WOMAN, AGE 37)
I
STEN:
I am pregnant and probably won't b able to attend any more sesshn
ut afer the birh of my child a couple of mont away. How
soud I contnue to do zazen in my ow home during the rest of my
pregnacy?
Rosm: Contnue to concentate on your preset koa. When a
soluton comes to you, put it on te shelf so to spea, as you did with
te oter koans, and go back to sikan-taz utl you come before me
134 I YASUTANr
'
s I NTERVIEws WITH WESTERNERS
again, at which tme you can demontate your uderstdg of te
spirit of the koa.
Sit comfortably at al tmes, wit your md profoundly absorbed
yet flexble, and witout stain in the region of the stomach. The last
is important. It is wel kow in Japan tat zazen has an exceedgly
beefcial efect on te md and spirit of the foetus. It is even better
i you place a pictue of Kannon before you when you start zzen.
Thus the vrtues of ts Bodhisatta which you are refectng upon
wil impres temselves upon te md of you unbor baby.
* * *
STUDENT: My koan is "From where you are, stop the distant boat
movng across the water. "
Rosm: Demonstate your understandig of the spirit of it.
(The student demonstates.]
That is good, but ty it this way (demonstratg].
Do you uderstand the true spirit of this?
STUDENT: Yes, the boat and I are not two.
ROSHI : That i right. When you become one wth the boat it cese
to be a problem for you. The same is true of your daiy life. If you
don't sparate youslf from te circumstances of your life, you live
without anxety. I summer you adapt yourself to heat, i winter to
cold. If you are rich, you live te life of a rich man; if you are poor,
you live with your poverty. Were you to go to heaven, you woud be
a angel; were you to fall into hell, you would become a devil. I
Japa you live lke a Japanese, in Canad like a Canadian. Lived tis
way, lfe isn't a problem. Aals have this adaptabilty to a hgh
degree. Huan bgs also have it, but becaus they imagine they
are this or tat, because tey fashion notons and ideas of what they
ought to be or how tey ought to lve, they are constady at war with
te evionment ad themselves.
The purpose of this koa, then, is to teach you how to be at one
with ever aspect of your life.
9 I STUDENT I ( MAN, AGE 30) I Rosm: Ths is
your frst sesshin, isn't it?
STUDE: Ye.
Rosm: Tell m why you wat to practce zan.
STUDENT I I 1 3 5
STUDENT: I want to know te meaning of hu exstece, why
we are bor and why we die.
Rosm: That is an excellent motvaton. There are varous ways to
resolve ts problem. Before I go into them, however, let me explain
what kensho i. It i seei into your Tre-natue and drecdy realiing
that you and te uverse are basically One. Once you have perceived
this, you wl know down to you bowels te meaning of huma
exstece ad thereby acquie the peaceful mid tht arise fom such
a revolutonary isight.
The road to such Knowledge is through zazen. As you kow, tere
are may ways to practce. You have been coutng you breath,
folowg your bret, and doing shan-taza. It is possble to come
to satori-awakening trough tee exercses alone, but the quickest
way is though a koan.
I ancient dys tere was no koan system, stmany people came to
Self-reazaton. But it was hard and took a long time. The use of
koans started about a thouand years ago ad has contiued down to
te present. One of te best koas, because te simplest, is Mu. This i
it backgroud: A monk came to Joshu, a renowed Zen master in
Chna hundreds of years ago, and asked: "Has a dog Buddha-nature
or not? " Joshu retored, "Mu!" Literally, t expression means "no"
or "not," but te signifcance ofJoshu's answer does not lie in this.
Mu i te expression of te livig, functiong, dynamc Buddha
nature. What you must do i discover te spirt or essence of ths Mu,
not through intellectual analysis hut by search into your innermost
beig. Then you mut demonstrate before me, concretely and vividly,
tat you uderstand Mu as living truth, without recouse to con
ceptons, theories, or abstact explanatons. Remember, you can't
undrstand Mu tough ordinay cognton; you must grasp it dect
ly with your whole being.
This is how to practce: If possible, sit with your legs in te full- or
half-lotus posture. If you can sit neither ful - nor half-lotus, sit with
your legs crossed in te most comfortable way. If eve crossing you
legs is impossible, ue a chair. Your back must be staight. After tk
ing several deep breaths, swing the body from side to side, fst in
large arcs and then in smaller ones, ut te body comes to rest at
center. Then breathe naturally. You are now ready to begin zazen.
First repeat te word "Mu," not audbly but in your mid. Con-
136 1 YAS UTANI
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s I NTERVIEws WITH WES TERNERS
centate on becomg one wit it. Do not think of its meaning. I re
peat: jut concentrate wholeheartedly on untng with Mu. At frst
your efort w be mechancl, but that i uavoidable. Gradua y,
however, all of you wbecome involved.
Sice the hua md i accustomed fom chdhood to fWlcton
ing centcl y, like te rays of a lght bulb which fa outard,
your a at frst is to brg you md to a focu. After you ae able
to conctrate on Mu, ten queston you: "What is Mu?1 Wat
ca it be?" You mut ask the queston right from the guts ! When the
questong reache the point of grppg you lie a v s that you
c t of nothng else, suddey you wperceive your True-nature
ad wexclaim: "Oh, now I kow!" With te enightenment the
problem of suf ering ad deat is reolved.
* * *
ROSH: Do you have ayg you wish to say?
STUET: Yes. When the bell rag for everybody to get up and
walk aroud, an old woma bega to sob. I don't know why he did
it, but the monitor bega cracking her with the kyosaku. At that point
I suddenly bega tg of the meaning of life ad why hu
beigs sufer. Without reg it, I bega to cry too, ad then the
teas jut guhed forth. I haven't cied that way since I wa a chd of
sven. What dos this mea?
ROSH: May canges take place i your body-md when you
do ze with z ad devoton. Your emotons become more sensi
tve, your tg sharper and clearer, your wstronger. Above all,
you experence a feeling of grattde. Beause your emotons have
already become more seitve ad responsive, when you heard this
woma crg you bega to c yousel She probably didn't kow
why she was crg either. She wa stck at that tme to encourage
her to put for her best efort.
What happened shows me tat you are doing zen with za ad
sincrit.
1 0 I STUDENT J ( WOMAN, AGE 33
)
I STEN:
My last tacher asiged me the koa Mu two years ago. I've been
practcng it, but fany, I don't kow what I'm doig. I just seem
to be repeatg it mecanica y. I was told to beome one wit it ad
1 Se aso p. 146.
STUDENT J I 1 37
i that way I would get kensho, but I a not even sure I know what
kensho is. Before I came to this temple I had difculty both in makg
mysel understood and in uderstandig what was said to me, as there
was never adequate interpretaton available. I suppose that is why I
a so badly informed.
Rosm: It is useless to repet Mu mechanicaly.
Kensho is the direc awarenes tat you are more t this puny
body or limited md. Stated negatvey, it i the reton that the
univese is not exteral to you. Positvey, it is eperiencing the uni
verse as yoursel So long as you concously or uconsciously t
in terms of a disticton beteen yousef and others, you are caught
in the dulsm of I ad not-1. This I is not idigenous to ou True
nate, being merely a illuion produced by the six senses. But be
cause this ilusory ego-1 ha been treated as a real entty thoughout
this exstence ad previous ones, it has come to occupy the deepest
level of the subconsious mind. You sigle-heared concentraton on
Mu wl gradually dispel t !-oncept from your conscousness.
With its complete bashment you suddenly experence Oneness.
Tis is kenho.
The traditona R way of hadling this koa is to let you
stuggle wit it wi y-nly. You repeatedly ask yourself: "Wht is
Mu? What ca it be?" The fst answer that comes to your md you
brg before the roshi, who promptly brshes it aside. "No, that's not
Mu! Searc fher! " he shout. Net time you present what
amouts to virtualy the same aswer. Now the roshi may scold: "I
told you that is not Mu. Bring me Mu!" You t again ad agai,
but every solution you ca conceive or imagie the roshi reject.
Such encounters uually last ony a minute or to. Eventually, after
months or years of exhaustve reasonig, your md reaches the point
where it is empted of athought-forms ad you come to the sudden
realizaton of Mu.
With students thirstng for trut this method was efectve. But
nowadays stdents have less ardor as well as les stck-toit-iveness.
What is even worse, incompetent teachers pass students who have not
truly experienced the spirit of the koa, in order to encouage them to
sty on. My own teacher, Harada-rosh, who had studied and prac
ticed Rai Zen for many years, sought, out of the greatest kind
ness, to eate tis aguished struggle of past dy by telg his
138
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YAS UTANI
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stdt i advance that ay concepton ofMu, no matter how subtle
or ingeous, is unavaling and that therefore they must bend every
efort to becoming one wth Mt But the danger here is oflapsing
into a mechancal repetton of it. Quite apart fom al ts, however,
there ae people for whom the koa Mu is distastef. Regadles of
how hard they try to embrac it, it never grips them. You may be
suc a peron.
STUET: I fmd it completely distastef.
Rosm: I that case it is better to change your koa. I might assign
you Sekishu, "What is the sound of one had clappig?" or Honrai
no Memmoku, "What was my Face before my parents' bir?" or just
"What am I?" or "Who am I?" whchever would be most absorbig
for you.
STE: The last would be the most meaningfl.
Rosm: Very well. Hencefort this w be you koan.
STENT: Do I treat it the same a Mu?
Rosm: Yes, but you mut not a the queton mechanicaly, like
a stamping machne. When eatg, ask youself "Wht is eatg?"
with a intense yearg to reolve the queston. When litenng,
inqure of youself "Wo i listeng?" When seei, "Wo is
seeing?" Whie walg, "Wo is walg?"
* * *
[Hereafer te statement "My koan is 'Who am I?' " at the open
ig of each dokusa of this stdent w be omted.)
ROsm: Do you have ay questons?
STUDE: Yes. When I question myself"Who am I?" I say to my
self, "I am bones, I am blood, I am skin." Where do I go from there?
Rosm: Ten as yoursef "What is it that has this blood? What is
it that has thee bones? What is it tat has this skin? "
STUDENT: It seems to me that I have to do two things: to become
one with eatg, for itance, a well as to ask myself "Who is eatg?"
Is that rigt?
Rosm: No, only queston yourself as to who is eatg. Your md
must become one mass of profound questonng. Ts is the quicket
way to the realiaton of you True-nature. Asking "Who am I? " i
really no di erent fom askg "What is Mu?"
STE: To be honest, I have no burg desire for kensho. I
wonder why. This bothers me.
S TUDENT J I 139
Rosm: People who have been compelled to face painful life situa
tions, such as te death of a beloved one, for example, are fequendy
precipitated into ask te most searching quetons about life and
death. This questoning gives rise to an acute tirst for Self-under
standig so tat tey ca aleviate teir ow as well as mannd's
suferings. Wit true enghtenment, disquiet and anety ae replacd
by i er joy ad serenity. Listenng to te Buddha's teachings in
my lectues, you will develop withn you a longing for Self-real
tion, which w grow deeper and deeper.
* * *
STUDENT: Last night during zazen I was ofen troubled by the
thought tat my desire for enlightenment is weak. Why, I kept ask
ing mysel do I not strive more intensely lke so many around me?
At one o'clock ths morg I was ready to quit, though only fou
hours earlier I had determined to sit up in zazen all night. In the
ktchen, where I went for a d, I saw te old cook-nu washg
clothes. Watching her, I felt ashamed of my ow feeble eforts.
The other dy you told me tht those who have the strongest de
sire for enlightenment are people who have sufered i le. You sad
tat tey keenly wish kensho so as to relieve teir ow sufering as
well as te sufering of others. The fact is that in my teens I expri
enced considerable suferng. Perhaps that is why I felt so compas
sionate toward oters and why my fends and acquaintances often
came to me for advice and help.
Some years later when I heard about Zen I began to practice it,
afer a fashion, in the Unted States. Ten a few years ago I came to
Japan, having given up my work in America, and began the tradi
tonal practce of Zen. The sympaty and compassion I had always
felt toward people before I undertook zazen have dried up in me. I
have experienced so much pai in Zen tat I no longer th of sav
ing anybody but myself. I hate having to sufer ! So my life in Zen,
fr fom makng me sensitive to the suferings of others and kindling
in me a desire to save them, has destroyed whtever altruistic feelings
I possessed, leavng me cold and selfsh.
Rosm: As I obsere your face ad manner, I see neithe insensitivity
nor selfshness-on te contrary, I see muc tat is Kannon-like. I am
sure tat most people who come in contact wit you sense you
natural wamth and feel well-isposed toward you. Wht you have
140 / YAS UTANI
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described to me, rather tha making you out to be cold-hearted ad
selfsh, reveals a deepeng of your natural sympathes, but all this
lies outside your consciouness. One who tks of himself as knd
hearted and sympathetc is ty neiter.
1 That you no longer are
consciously aware of these emotons only shows how deeply en
trenched they have become.
There are many people who spend a tei te givg aid to te
needy and joing movements for te betterment of society. To be
sue, tis ought not to be discounted. But ter root aiety, growing
out of their false view of themelves ad the universe, goes uelieved,
gnawing at their hearts and robbing them of a rich, joyou lfe. Those
who sponsor and engage in such socia betterment actvtes lok
upon themslves, consciously or uconsciouly, as moraly superior
and so never bother to puge their mnds of greed, anger, and delusive
tg. But the time comes when, havg grow exhausted from
all their restless activity, they can no longer conceal from themselves
their basic anxieties about lfe ad death. Then they seriously begin
to question why life hasn't more meaning ad zet. Now for te fst
time they wonder whether istead of tring to save others they
ought not to save themselves frst.
I assure you that you have not made a mstake in deciding to tread
this pat, and one day it wbecome clear to you. It i not selfshness
to forget about savig others ad to concentrate ony on developig
your ow spiritual strength, though it may seem to be. The solem
truth is that you can't begin to save aybody ut you yourself have
become whole through the experience of Self-reazaton. When you
have seen into the nature of your Tre-self ad the universe, your
words w carry conviction and people wlliste to you.
STUENT: But I become tred and discouraged so easily-te Way
is terribly long and hard.
ROSHI: The Buddha's Way calls for energetc devoton and per
seerance. When you stop to consider, however, that philosophers
have been strugglig for two or te thousand years to resolve the
1 Compare with Lao-tzu's "The truly virtuou i not conciou of h v.
The ma of inferior viue, however, is ever conscouly concered with hs vue
ad therefore he i without true virue. Tr virte is spontaneous and lays no claim
to vitue." (From the Tao Teh Ching, quoted by Lma Govind in h Foundations
ofTibetan Mysticism, p. 235.)
S TUDENT J I 141
problem of hu extence, witout success, but tat trough asking
"Who a I?" you can succeed where they have failed, have you
cause to be discouaged? What actvty or work i life is more urgent
or compelling tha this? By comparison everything else fades ito
insigncance.
STUDENT: I fed that way too; tt's why I came to Japan to trai
in Zen.
Rosm: You are d erent from most here. They come for a sess
becaue they hear Zen is remarkble ad tey want to grab it as
quickly as they ca and go about teir business; therefore they stra
themselves. They attack zze wit the fury of a sudden stor where
te ra comes dow i torents ad is stly caried away. But
you, having made tremendous sacrice for te sae of enterig upon
te Way of te Buddha, need not torture yoursel Your practice
ought to be like rain gently droppig from the sky and seeping deep
ito the earth. With this state of mind you can st patiently for four or
fve years, or even more, utl you realze Truth i its fullness.
STUDENT: Is it because phiosophers ask Why? and How? that they
have been unable to resolve te problem of human existence?
ROSHI : Their investgatons take them away from themselve ito
the realm of diversity-this is how philosophers and scientist work
whereas the question "Who am I?" precipitates you into an aware
ness of your fudaental solidarty with the universe.
STUDET: I am ready to do whatever you say.
ROSH: I feel that your trainig up to now has not been entrely
suited to your temperament. However, you must not think tat the
tme you have spent i Zen has been wasted; it has been valuable in
more ways tan you are aware. I also feel that, for te time beig at
least, you ought not to be struck with te kyosaku.
STUDET: I c't tell you how nervous it has made me. I the last
place I was doing zazen I spent nety-fve percent of the time fght
ing my reacton to it.
Rosm: Had it been possible for you to communicate with your
last teacher the way you and I are now able to, thanks to this iter
pretation, a dif erent practce might well hve been assigned you.
In any case, hereafter queston yourself "Who am I?" wth sharp yet
urfed penetration.
* * *
142 f YAS UTANI
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ROSHI: Have you ayting to say?
sTDE: Yes. A few days after the last sesshin I suddly realizd
in a new way that seekng excitement and pleasure and tryig to avoid
pain, which has been the story of my life, was senseless, snce it was
always folowed by an aching hollowess. Now, even though thi
isight had come to me wt great force, along with an exhilaraton
which persisted throughout the day, with a week the old feeling of
the fatess and meaniglesmess of life, togeter with a craving for
excitement, retured. Is ths natral or unnatural-?
ROSHI: To wish for a fler, happier lie tan you present one is
natural and commendable. What is not commendable is to despise
your present state while yearg for a more exalted one. In giving
your
self over wholly to whatever you are doing at the moment you
can achieve a deeper and richer state of mnd- Am I answering
your queston?
ST
U
DENT: I haven't come to te cru of it yet. When I feel ths
way I want to get away from myself, to run of to a movie or to stuf
myself wth loads of rich food. My queston is, should I indulge these
desires or fght to repress tem and contnue with my zzen?
ROSHI: This is a most vital queston. It is uwise either to repress
you
r
feelings severely or to indulge them wldly. There are
people
who, when they feel as you do, either get riotously dk or eat them
selves sick. Of course you are not that knd of person. The point is,
it is all right to go to a move occasionally if you go to one you enjoy
and not to just any move. Likewise, when you have an irreistible
urge to treat youself to a feast, eat food that you not only enoy hut
that is nourishing as well, and don't overeat so that you are sick the
next day. If you exercise moderaton and judgment, you won't feel
remorsefl afterards, reproaching yourself for havg foolishly
wasted valuable tme whch you could have utizd more proftably
i zazen. You wlbe taken out of your doldrums and given a lf, and
w be able to resume your practce with greater zest.But if you have
feelgs of self-disgust, they wll give rise to a host of thoughts which
w iterfere wit you practce. As your zz deepens, however,
a ths will cease to b a problem to you.
* * *
sTD
ENT:
If l understood you correctly, at one tme you told me
to keep
my mind i my palm, another tme to focus it in the region
STUDENT J I 143
below the navel, and agai, when I become sleepy, to place it between
my eyes. I am confed. I don't even know what my mind is, so how
can I put it i any of these places?
Rosm: When I told you to put your mind i the palm of your
hand, what I meant was to focus your attention at tat poit. You must
not constantly change the focal point of your concentration. Both
Dogen and Hakuin recommend focusing the mnd in the palm of the
hand. If you want to increase the intensity of your zazen, you can do
so by directig your attention to your hara. A good way to overcome
sleepiess is to concentrate you attention beteen you eyes.
STUDENT: But what is Mind, anyway? I mean, I know what it is
theoretically, because I have read many of the sutras and other books
on Buddhism. But can I realy fnd out what Mid is by askg
"Who am I? "
ROSHI : A theoretical understandig of Mind i s not enough to re
solve the question "Who am I?" and through it the problem of birh
and-dath. Such understanding is merely a portrait of realty, not
realty itsel If you persistently question yourself "Who am I?" with
devotion and zeal-that is to say, moved by a genuine desire for Sel
knowledge-you are boud to realize the nature of Mind.
Now, Mind is more than you body and more than what is or
diarily called mnd. The iner realiation of Mind is the realizaton
that you and the universe are not two. This awareness must come to
you with such overwhelmig certainty that you involuntarily slap
your thigh and exclaim: "Oh, of couse! "
STUDENT: But I don't know who it is that i s askg "Who am I ? "
and not knowing this, or who it i s that is beig asked, how can I fmd
out who I am?
ROSHI: The one asking t queston is You and You must answer.
The truth is, they are not two. The answer ca ony come out of per
sistent questonig with an intense yearg to know. Up to the pres
ent you have been wanderig aimlessly, ucertain of your desta
ton, but now that you have been given a map and have your
bearings, don't stop to admire the sights-marc on!
* * *
STUDENT: You have said that we are all inerently perfect-with
out a faw. I can beleve that in our mother's womb we are, but after
birth we arc anything but perfect. The sutras say that we are all beset
I
#
f
YAS U
TANI
'
S I NTERVIEWS WITH
WESTERNERS
by gre
ed,
ager,
ad folly. I believe tat, becaue it is cerinly te
ofm
yse
l
Rosm: A blid m, eve whle blid, is fWdamentally whole
ad perfect. The same is tue of a deaf-mute. If a deaf-mute suddenly
regaied his hearig, his perecton would no longer be that of a
deaf-mute. Were tis saucer on the table to be broken, each segment
would be wholeness itsel What is vsible to the eye is merely the
form, which is ever-hangig, not the substance. Actually the word
"perfect" is superfuous. Things are neither perfect nor imperfect,
they are what they are. Everythg has absolute wort, hence notng
can be compared with aythng else. A tall ma is tal, a short man
is shor, that is all you can say. There is a koan where i reply to te
quetion "What is the Budda? " the master answers: "The tall bam
boo is tall, the short bamboo is short." Kensho is notg more than
directly perceivig all ths in a flash.
* * *
STUDET: I am stll havig trouble puttg my mid i the palm
of my hand.
ROSi: What is te mater?
STENT: It i a strai for me to focus my attenton there whie
exg; my concetaton becomes disrupted.
ROSi: You must not strai yourself. Instead of tryig to put your
mind somewhere, simply concetrate on te question "Who am I ? "
STUET: When I prostate myself before you or before the imge
of te Buddha, or when I am chantng the sutas or walking, I hve
no iclaton to ask myself "Who am I?' ' Is it all right not to at these
rmes?
ROSi: You must ask the queston at all times. Whle walg
you must queston, "Who is walkng?" When prostratg yourself
you must queston, "Who is prostratng?"
ST: Or else "Who am I?"
Rosm: Yes. It amoWts to the same thing.
* * *
STUDENT: I addressing everybody last night you said that when
we went to bed we shoud not separate ourselves from our koan but
contue the questionig even during sleep. I fnd that I forget my
koa quckly when I am sleeping because I dream a lot. The dream
STUDENT J I 145
world seems to be another world from tt of"Who am I?" Dream
ing is such a waste of te and energy. How ca I avoid it?
Rosm: Geealy, actve people who have lttle time for sleep
dream only occasionaly, whereas tose who sleep long hours have
many dreams. Aso, those who have much time on their hands tend
to dream a great deal, as do tose who sleep on their back. One way
to stop yourself from dreaming, of course, is to sleep less, but if you
don't get eough rest, you are likey to nap durng zazen. You w
notice in pictures of the reclng Buddha that he is restng on his
right side. For many reasons this is a good positon for sleeping.
STUDE: In my work-ither doing laund or cleaning up-1
often fmd myself daydreaming. What can I do about that?
Rosm: Whe cleaning contue to queston, "Who am I?" No
oter thoughts wil enter your mnd i the questoning is sufcently
intense. It is only because you separate yourself from you koan that
daydreams occur.
* * *
Rosm: Is there anythng you wsh to say or ask?
STUENT: From fve ths morg up to now [3 p.m.] I have been
steadily askng myself"Who am I ? " Sometimes the queton has ab
sorbed me, but most of the tme I have been just plai bored. Why do
I get bored?
Rosm: Probably because you are not yet convinced tat through
such questoning you can perceive your Tre-natre and thus attai
lastng peace of mind. When those who have exerenced a great
deal of pain in life hear the trth of Buddhism and begin to practce
zazen, they usually want to get kesho quickly i order to relieve
ther ow suferings as well as those of others.
STUDENT: Part of the reason I fnd it so hard to concentrate is that the
new montor we have is roaring at us all and clouting everyone so hard.
Rosm: You need only ask youself ((Wo is listenng to all this
shoutng? " Don't make a problem of it, it is no concer of yours.
STUENT: It is impossible for me to be indiferent to it. On either
side of me the sitters are being struck so hard that I shudder every time
I hear the kyosaku. I tried to ask myself Who is lstenng to all this
horrible shoutg? " but I was so upset I couldn't continue.
ROSHI : These people aroud you are close to kensho, that is why
146
f
YAS
UTANI
'
s I NTERVI EWS WI TH WESTERNERS
tey are being stuck so hard-to spur them on to a last desperate
efort. If you don't want to be ht becuse it interferes wit your za
zen, I can have a "Do not strike" sign placed over you.
STUDENT: Yesterday when Mr. K- struck me it was helpful, as
he knows how and when to strike, but this man hits without rhyme
or reason ad his shoutng is s frightenig it makes me sick i my
stomch.
ROsm: Of course some of the welders of the kyosaku are more
capable than oters. Mr. K-, having had long experience, is quite
accomplished. Do you wsh a sign placed over you?
STUDENT: The fwmy thg is that half of me wants to be ht, be
caue I thi I'll get kensho quicker that way, and half of me dread
it. I Mr. K-rets, I would like h to strike me occasionaly.
Rosm: We can have a sign put over your place, and when you
wish to be struck you can signal wth your hands raised over your
head, palms together. But don't concer yourself with what happens
aroud you, ony concentrate on your ow problems.
From now on you can reduce "Who am I? " to "Who?" since the
whole question has su into your subconsciou. Simiarly, a student
practicing the koan "What is Mu?" wl in tme be able to reduce
te question to just "Mu," sice ths shortened form wl be suf
cient to set the full phrase echoing i his subconsciou.
W W W
ROSHI [sharply] : Who are you? [No answer.] Who are you!
STUDENT [pausing] : I don't know.
ROsm: Good! Do you know what you mean by "I don't know"?
STUDENT: No, I don't.
Rosm: You are you! I am I ! You are only you-that is all.
STUDENT: What did you mean by "Good!" when I answered "I
don't kow"?
ROSm: In the profoundest sese, we can know nothig.
STUDENT: Yesterday when you told me you were goig to ask me
who I am, I concluded that I must have some answer prepared, so I
thought of various responses, but just now when you asked, "Who
are you? " I coudn't t of a single thing.
Rosm: Excellent ! It shows your md is empted of aidas. Now
you can respond with your whole beig, not with just your head.
S TUDENT J I 147
When I said I would ask you who you are, I did't want you to reason
out an answer but only to penetrate deeper and deeper into yourself
wit "Who a I?" Whe you come to the sudden in er reton
of your True-nature, you wl be able to repond instatly without
refecton.
What is t [suddenly strikg ttar mat wth baton] ?
[No answer]
Probe fher! You mind is almost rpe.
* * *
STUDENT: I have been askg ad askg "Who am I?" untl I feel
there i just no answer to ths question.
Rosm: You won't fnd an etty called "I."
STUENT [heatedly] : Then why am I askg the queston!
ROSHI : Because in yor preet state you ca't help yoursl The
ordiary person i forever asking Why? or What? or Who? There
are many koans in which a monk asks "What is te Buddha?" or
"Why did Bodidharma come from India to China?" The a of
the master's response is to break open the monk's deluded md so
that h can re his queston is a abstracton.
STUDENT: I have been reading te English tranlaton of the Bassui
lettes1 durg you morg lecture, a you suggested I do. At one
point Bassui says: ,,Wo i the Master that moves te hads?"
Rosm: There i s no real answer to Who? What? or Why? Why
is sugar sweet? Sugar is sugar. Sugar!
STDET: You told me earlier, "You are you! " Alright, I a I
I accept that. Is't this eough? What more need I do? Why mut I
keep strugglg with tis queston?
Rosm: Because this understndin is exteral to you, you don't
really know what you mea by "I am I." You mut come up agait
this queston with te force of a bomb, and ayour intellecal no
tons and ideas must be ated. Te only way to resolve t
queston is to come to the explosive iner reton tat everg
is [ultmately reducible to] Notg. If your understadg is merely
theoretcal, you wl forever k Who? What? and Why?
1
See p. 164 i
148 / YASUTANI
'
s INTERVIEWS WITH WESTERNERS
STUDENT: I questonng "Who am I? " I have come to te con
cluion that I am ths body, that is, tee eye, tee legs, ad so forth.
At the same tme I realize that these orgas do not exst idependnt
ly. If I were to take out my eye and place it in front of me, for ex
aple, it could not fucton as a eye. Nether could my leg function
as a leg if it were separated from my body. For waking, my legs need
not only my body but also the ground, jut as my eyes need object
to perceive in order to perform te act of seeing. Fuermore, what
my ees see ad what my legs walk on are pat of the uivere.
Therefore I am te uverse. Is tis correct?
ROSHI: You are te uverse arigt, but what you hve just give
me is an abstracton, a mere reconstucton of realit, not realt it
sel You must direcdy grasp reality.
STUDENT: But how do I do tht?
Rosm: Simply by questoning "Who am I?" unt abrupdy you
perceve your True-nature with clarity and certainty. Remember, you
are neither your body nor your mnd. Ad you are not your mnd
addd to your body. The what are you? I you would grasp the
real You and not merely a fgmet, you mut constady ask your
sel "Who am I?" wit absolute devoton.
* * *
STUDEN: Last tme you said I was not my mind ad not my body,
I don't understad. Ifl am neither of these nor a combinaton of them,
what am I?
ROSHI: Were you to as the average person what he is, he would
say, "My mnd" or "My body" or "My mind and bdy," but none
of ths is so. We are more tn our mnd or our body or both. Our
True-nature is beyond a categories. Whatever you can conceive or
imagie is but a fragment of yoursel, hence te rea You cannot b
found trough logical deduction or intellectual aalysis or endless
imaging.
If I were to cut of my hand or my leg, te real I would not be
decreased one whit. Sticdy speaking, ths body and mind are also
you but only a fracton. The esence of your True-nature is no dif
ferent from that of ths stick in front of me or ts table or ts clock
in fac every sigle object in te universe. Whe you directly ex
perience the trut of this, it wlbe s convincig tat you will ex-
STUDENT J I 149
claim, "How true!" becaue not only your brai but ayou beig
wl partcipate i t knowledge.
STUET [suddenly cryg] : But I am afraid! I am afraid! I don't
kow why, but I am afraid!
Rosm: There is notg to fear. Just deepe and deepen the ques
toning ut a your preconceived notions of who ad what you
are vansh, ad at once you wlreale that te entre universe is no
df eret from you You are at a crucial stage. Don't reteat
march on!
* * *
STUDENT: You said earlier that I am not my body ad not my
mind. I have aways thought of myself as a mind ad a body. It
frightens me to t dif erendy.
Rosm: It is tre that te maority of people t of themselves
as a body and a mid, but that doesn't mae them ay the less mis
taken. The fact is tat in their essental nate a sentent beigs
trasced their body and their mind, which are not to but one. The
faiue ofhuman beings to perceive ts fundmental truth is the cause
of teir suf erings.
As I said in my lectre ths morg, m is forever seekg and
grasping. Why? He grasps for the world becaue ituitvely he longs
to be rejoied wth that from which he has been estraged through
delusion. It is i consequence of ths alenation that we fnd the
stong overcomig te weak and the weak acceptig enslavemet
as a alterative to death. Yet when udeluded, huma beings nat
ually gravitte toward one another. Those wth strong natre want
to chersh and protect te weak, whle te later long to be cherished
by them. So we have the Buddha, who is spirtualy powerf, em
bracing us who are weak, and we bow dow before him i gratefl
acceptace ofhis overhemg compassion. Like a mother caressg
her infat, here tere is no separateness, ony harmony ad oneness.
Everytg i natre seeks this unity. If you carefl y obsere te pod
of a lotu, you wlsee tat whe drops of rain or dew overow the
litde combs tey merge.
But becaue we delude ouselves ito acceptg the relity of
a ego1, estrangement ad stfe inevitably folow. The Buddha
i his enghtenmet perceived tht ego is not idigenou to ma's
1 50 / YAS UTANI
'
S INTERVIEWS WITH WES TERNERS
innate nate. With f elightement we realize we possess the
universe, so why grasp for what is inherently ours?
You have only to persevere in questong "Who am I?" if you
wsh to experience te truth of what I have been saying.
STUDENT: Than you for your f explaaton.
* * *
STUDET: My eyes are strage. They fed as tough they are look-
ing not outward but inward, askg "Who a I?"
ROSHI: Excelent !
[Suddenly] Wo are you?
[No answer]
You are you! I am I !
There is a koan i te Hekian-roku where a mon named Etcho
asks, "What i the Buddha? " and the master answers, "You are
Etcho!"
1
Do you understand?
[No answe]
You must take hold of ths directly. You are coming closer. Con
centrate as hard as you pssibly ca.
* * *
STUDENT: I had several questons, but I don't feel like askig them.
ROSHI: Good! Unless you are bothered or worried by sometg
it is better not to ask questions, for there is no ed to them. Tey
take you fartlter ad farer away from your Sel whereas the ques
tion "Who am I? " brings you to the radiat core of your being.
STUDET: I'm not worried about anythg right now.
ROsm: Don't separate yourself fom "Who a I?" Al questions
waswer themselve once you realze your Self-nature.
* * *
Rosm: Is there aytg you wish to say?
STET: No, but would you tell me trough te interpreter what
you said at four tirty this moring when you addressed all te sitters?
ROSHI: What I said was substantally this: Man fancies himself to
be the most highly evolved organsm in te uverse, but in the view
of Buddhism he stands midway beteen an amoeba and a Buddha.
Case No. 7.
STUDENT J I 151
And because he falsely sees hself as no more tha this pmy
body,1 just a speck in te uivere, he i constantly edeavorig to
enarge himsel through possessions ad power. But when he awakens
to the fact that he embraces the whole universe, he ceae hs grasp
ig, for he no longer feels a lack withi himsel I the Ltu sutra
te Buddha relates that with enghtenment he realized tat he pos
sessed the uverse, that a its beigs were his cldren, and that he
needed no more ta his beggig bowl. He was, i truth, the richest
mn in the world.
So long as you t of yourself as tis small body you w feel
resdess and discontented. But whe though eightenment you ac
tualy experience the wverse as identca with yoursel you w
att lastng peace.
STUENT: Before I entered upon te practce of Zen I was con
stady tryng to acquie posssons, but now I desire ony peace of
mind.
Rosm: Ad tat, after all, i te only thg wonh attaing. True
peace and joy ca b acheved only wit enlightement, so do your
utmost !
* * *
STDENT: You have told me tat when a person becomes eight
ened ad perceives tat he is the whole wverse, he cease grasping
for tgs. Well, I have lived wth people who have had a enlight
enment experiece, yet itead of becoming less grasping and selfsh
and egotstcal they sometmes become more s If that is what en
lightenmet does for one, I don't want it !
ROSi: With a fst enightenment the realaton of oneness is
usualy shallow. Yet if one has genuinely perceved, eve though
dimly, and contues to practce devotedy for fve or ten more years,
his iner vision wexpand i dept and magntude as his chracter
acques flexibilt ad put.
One whose actons are stl dominated by ego canot b said to
` Compare with the Buddha's oft-uoted statement: "Veriy, I declae uto you
that within this very body, moral thouh it b ad only a fathom high. but con
sou and endowed wit mind, i the world ad te waxng thereof ad te wag
thereof, and the way that leads to the pasing away thero" {From the Anguttaa
Niaya II, Saytta-Nikaya I, quoted by Lam Govinda in Foundations of Tibeta
Mysticism, p. 6.)
2 See footote 2, p. 287.
152 1 vAsuTANI
'
s INTERVIEWS WITH WESTERNERS
have had a vad enghtement. Futhermore, an authetc eperience
not only reveals one's imperfectons, but it simutaeously creates the
determaton to remove them.
sTUDET: But the Buddha after his enightenment didn't practce
constantly, did he?
ROsm: His practice was hs ceseless teachg and preachg. The
Buddha is unique. He was enlightened long before he was bor ito
this world. He came in order to tech us, who are ignorant, how to
become eightened, how to lve wisely and die i peace. He endued
variou austerites, not becaue he needed to but in order to demonstrate
vivdly to us that mortcation of the feh is not te true path to
emncipaton. He was bor, he lived, ad he died i this world ony
as a example for al huanity.1
STDENT: But don't we ordary people need self-scipline?
ROSHI: We do, of couse. Sel-scipline consists i the obserance
of the precepts, and this is the foundation of zazen. Futhermore, sel
idulgece-i.e., overeatng, oversleepig, and te like-is as bad as
self-tortre. Both sprig from ego and therefore disturb the mind,
so they are equa y a hdrace to elightemet.
STUDET: Though I haven't yet experienced my True-nature, I am
aware of my imperfectons and am determined to rid mysef of them.
How is that?
Rosm: Let me go back to what you said earlier about having lived
with people who were Sel-realized ad yet who appeared selfsh ad
conceited. Such people usually do not practce devotedly after kensho,
though they may appear to. They put in a certai number of hours
at zazen, but it is only a matter of form. If we indicate it percentage
ws, their involvement after kensho is about tenty or thrty percent;
consequently their iluminaton gradualy becomes clouded and in
tme their experience becomes a mere memory. On the other hand,
Compae: "In the Lt Sutra [Ch. XV ad XVI) the Buddha, i reply to a
qur by te Bodhisatta Maiteya, states, The world thiks that Lord Shak
yau after goig out from the home of the Shakyas arved at the hghest perfet
enlightenment. But the trth is that may hudred thouand myriads of kotis o
aeons ago I arived at supreme perfet enlightenment . . . . The Tathagata who wa
prfetly enlightened so long ago ha no liit to the duration ofhis life, being ever
lating. Never extinct, he makes a show of exinction for the sake of tose he leads
to salvation.' " (Quoted in Honen the Buddhist Saint, by Coates and Ishizuka,
Chion-i, Kyoto, I9Z5, p. 98.)
STUDENT J I I 53
those who trow temelves into zazen one hundred percent become
acutdy sensitve to teir shortcomings and develop the strength and
determnaton to triumph over them despite te fact that they ae not
yet enghtened.
* * *
STUENT: I am a lite edgy ts morg. Hearig the stck makes
me uneasy.
ROSi: Did you do zazen alnght?
STUDENT: I styed up tl2 a.m., but I'm not tred.
ROSH: Many thk tat when tey are tred efectve zaze is im
possible. But this is a mistake idea. When you are tred so is your
"foe"-i.e., the md of ignorace-ad when you are energetc so
i it. In realty they are not two.
sTUET: Would you please tell me through the iterpreter what
you said in your lecture this morg?
ROSH: This is what I said in essence: There are now fve or six
hours left to the end of this sesh. You need't worry that ts i
insufcient for elightenmet-n the contrary, it is more than
enough. Kensho requires but a mute-nay, an istant !
To use the aalogy of a battle, last nght you were engaging the
"enemy" in hnd-tohand combat, fghting whichever way you
could. This is now te last attack, the mopping-up operaton. How
ever, you must not t that staining and pusg are indispesa
ble for eightenment. Al you need do is empty you mind of the
delusive noton of "self" and "other."
May have come to reaaton simply by listeg to te tg
of a bel or some oter sound. Usually when you hear a bell ringing
you t, consciously or unconsciouly, "I am hearing a bel." Three
tngs are involved: I, a bell, ad hearing. But when the mind i ripe,
that is, as free of dcusive thoughts as a sheet of pure white paper i
umarred by a blemish, there is just the soud of the bell rnging.
This is kensho.
STUDENT: While listening to sound I have been askng "Who is
listeng?" Is this wrong?
ROSi: I see your problem. I askg "Who i listeg? " you are
at frst conscious of the question a well as te sound. When the
questong penetates deeper, you cese to b aware of it. So when a
1
54
j YAS UTANI
'
S
INTERVIEWS WI TH WES TERNERS
bl rigs it is
only te bl
listenig to the
.
so
d of
e ll. Or
to put
it another
way, it is
the sound of youself rmgmg.
This ts the
moment
of enghtenment.
Comid
er
these
fowers in te bowl on this table. You look at them
ad
excla
m: "Oh, how beautful these fowers are! " That is one kind
of seeig. But when you see them, not as apart from you but as your
self, you are enlghtened.
STUDENT: That is hard for me to Wderstand.
ROSH: It is not difcult to Wderstand in a puely intellectual way.
Upon hearg the foregoing explanaton one ca truthfuly say:
"Yes, I uderstad. " But such understanding is merely intellectual
recogniton, and quite diferet from the experience of enghtenment,
where you direcdy experience the fowers as yoursel
It is better that I say no more or these explanatons wl become a
hindrance to you. Go bac to your place and concentate itesely on
your koan.
* * *
ROSHI : Would you lie to say somethig?
STUDEN: Yes. Last tme you ued terms like "enemy" and "bat
de." I don't Wderstad. Who is my enemy and what is te battle?
ROSHI: Your enemy is your discursive thinkg, which leads you
to diferentiate yourself on one side of an imagiary boWldary from
what is not you on the other side of this non-exitent line. Or to put
it i terms that may b more mengfl, your enemy is your ow
personal ego. When you have stopped thiking of yourself as a
separated idividuality and have reaed the Oneess of all exstence,
you have dealt you ego a mortal blow.
The end of the sesshi is approachg. Don't lose your grip!
IV I BASSUI ' S
ONE- MIND AND
S ERMON
LETTERS
ON
TO
HIS DISCIPLES
I
EDI TOR' S I NTRODUC-
TI ON / In the year 1327, toward the close of te Kamakura
era-that strife-tom, anxiety-ridden period of japanese history whch
produced so many notable religious fgures-the Rinzai Zen master
Bassui Tokusho was bor. Havng had a vision that the chld she was
carrying woud one day become a fend who woud slay both his
parents, hs mother abandoned him i a feld at birth, where a famly
servant secretly rescued and reared him.
At seven Bassui' s sensitive religious mnd began to evnce itsel
At a memorial serce for his late father he suddenly asked te ofci
atg priest: "For whom are those ofergs of rice and cakes and
fruit?" "For your father, of course," repled the priest. "But Father
has no shape or body now,
1
so how can he eat them?" To this the
priest answered: "Though he has no visible body, his soul wl receive
these oferings." "If there is such a thing as a sou," the child pressed
on, "I must have one in my body. What is it like? "
To be sure, these are not unusual questions from a thoughtful,
sesitve child of seven. For Bassui, however, they were only te
begng of an intense, unremittng self-inquiry which was to
contiue wel ito manhood-util, in fact, h had achieved ful
" In Japan the dead ae uua y cemted.
155
1 56 1 BAs s ui
, 324
Perennial Philosophy (Huxley) , 251
personality, 1 4, 1 5, 42, 93, 229, 232, 280,
282 (3), 325, 343
philosophers, 105, 1 41
Philosophies ofIndia (Zimmer), 65 ( 1 )
philosophy, see under Buddhism
"pit of psudo-emancipation, " 175
Platform sutra, 22 ( 1 )
Plato, xii
pstures for zazen, 30-32, 31 5-20;
bench, 320; Burmee, 3 1 8; chair, 320;
correct postures, J2; full-lotus, 3 17;
half-lots, 3 1 8; ]apanese, 3 19
practice, practices, xv, 3 f. , 27, 30, 46,
50, 5 1 , 56,
57, 58-59
. 84, 87, 1 1 2, 1 21
( 1 ) , 1 25, 142, 1 52, 1 64, 1 74, 282, 284
( 3) . 289 f.
Prajna Paramita Hridya, see Hannya
Haramita Shingyo
prayer, prayers, 41 , 179 (2), 239, 288,
334
precepts, 1 74, 342; like foundation of
a house, 1 25; grounded in Buddha
nature, 1 4; Hinayana, 258 ( 1 ) ; not
simple moral commandments, 1 4;
Mahayana, 341 ; and zazen, 1 3 1
pretas, 8 345
pride, 61 , 287 (2), 3 1 2 (6)
priest, see monk
Primal-nature (primordial nature), 1 77,
1 91 , 308 ; see also Buddha-nature
prostrations (bowing down), 18, j2,
174, 2 1 2, 279, 31 6
pseudo-Zen, xv
psychology, see under Zen
Pure Land, 28 1 , 34 2
Pure Land sect, sects, 323, 326, 335 , 342-
43
"purposeless" work, 201
reality, 59, 61 , 162 I., 349
Real-self, see Buddha-nature
Real-you, see Buddha-nature
Record of the Transmission ofthe Lmp, sec
Dento-roku
Record ofthe Transmission ofthe Light, sec
Denko-roku
religion, religious, xv, 40, 41 , 42, 1 55,
1 75. 239. 269. 348
Rinzai, 22, 49 ( 1 ) , 170, 175, 1 81 , 1 85,
335. 336, 341 , 343
Rinzai's Collected Sayings, 343
Rinzai sect, xvi, 5, 49, 88, 19 { 1 ) , 274,
343; and kyosaku, 197 {2); manner of
sitting, 34; and Mu, 1 37; revitalized
by Hakuin, 333; teachings like au
tumn frost, 49 { 1 ) ; teachings like
brave general, 49 ( 1 )
ritual, rituals, see ceremonies
R
odin's "Thinker," 6
rohatsu sesshin, 202, 21 3, 214, 26, 343
Rokuso-daishi, see Eno
roof tile {Nangaku koan), 21
roshi {master), xvi, 8, I4, 16, 21 , 22,
50 I., 64, 6 f, 87 I. , 204 I., 343
Ryogon sutra, 39, 54, 343-44
Ryoscn-an, 251
Ryutaku-ji (Ryutaku monastery), 200,
21 0, 217, 223, 25 1 , 252, 259
.
344
Saicho, 348
saiojo Zen, 46, 48, 58, 6
saint, 70, 71
Saint Teresa of Avila. 2 34 { I )
samadhi, 19, So, 84, 288, 344
Samantabhadra, see Fugcn
Sambhoga-kaya, 326
samsara, see birth-and-death
samu, 20, 201 ; see also work
Sandai, 1 8o
snzen, 259, 330
Sasaki, Ruth Rullcr, xiv ( 1 )
Satipathaa Sutta, 89 ( 2)
I NDEX I 361
satori, see enlightenment
science, sientists, xiii, 105, 29
scriptures, see sutras
Secret Teaching, 50; sec also dokusan
Scigcn, 29
seiza, 216, 344
Sekishu, 1 38, 333
Sckito Kiscn, 47, 299, 344
self, I 85, 267, 349
Self, see Buddha-nature
self-discipline, see discipline
Self-nature, see Buddha-nature
Self-realization, see enlightenment
Scnzaki, Nyogcn, 49 { I )
serenity {tranquility), 1 1 , 1 8, 36, 1 39,
1 86, 258. 327
sesshin, 22, 39, 63 , 88 { 1) , 92, 99 I.
,
192-
204, 245, 247; monatery, 192; see also
rohatsu sesshin
Scsshu Toyo, I 32, 323, 344
Setcho Jukcn, 333
Shakyamuni, see Buddha Shakyamuni
Shaolin Temple, see Shorin Temple
Shapley, Harlow, xii
shikn-taza, 7, 53-54, 61 , 121 I. , 1 59,
190, 233, 235, 266, 288; essntials of,
1 32; foundation of, 7; hard for nov
ices, 8; is intense sitting, 1 26; misun
derstood by Westerners, xvi, 7; and
satori, 7; is no struggle for satori, 46,
1 26; and yoga, 1 27
Shingon, 1 8, 327, 344-45
Shinran, 343
Shin-t'ou Hsi-ch'icn, see Sckito Kisen
Shobogenzo {Dogcn), 9, 1 6 ( 1 ) , 23, 58,
205 (1), 271 , 273, 259-96, 345
shochuhen, see Five Degree ofTozan
shochurai, see Five Degrees ofTozan
Shodoka (Yoka Gengaku), 3 5 1
Shogcn-ji, 26, 274
shojo, see Hinayana
Shokoku-ji, 34
Sherin Temple, 3 23
Shoyo-an, 345
Shoyo-roku, 24, 337, 345
shujin-ko, 1 59 { 1 )
shunyata, sec ku
Shushogi, 273, 345
362 I I NDEX
sicknes, see under Zen
Siddhartha, see Buddha Shakyamuni
silcncc, 9, 92, I77, 249, 258
"silver mountain," see "iron wall and
silver mountain"
sin, sins, I 6I , I 76, 325
sttg cushion, 30, 3 I 7
Six Realms of Existence, 72, 8 1 , I6,
I6 f = 345
six sense, sixth sense, I 3, IOI
sixth class of consciousness, 40; see also
consciousness
Sixth Patriarch, see Eno
sleep, sleeping, I45, I j2, I 6I , 220, 262
sleepiness, 102, 143
smell, see under Zen
soo, 347
Socn Nakagawa-roshi, 204, 21 0, 222,
223, 252, 259. 345
Soji-ji, 8, 3 36, 346
solar plexus, 262, 266
Soma Maha Thera, 89 (2)
Song ofEnlightenment, sec Shodoka
Son-o, 205
Soothill, W. E., 338
Sorokin, Pitrim A., I 9I ( I )
sosan, 330
Sosci-ji, 246
Soto Mission, 241
Soto sect, xvi, 5, 7, 8, 25, 345; out
numbers Rinzai in Japan, 346; few
enlightened priests io, I J2; joriki
stressd in, 49; and satori, 46, 49;
teachings like farmer tending rice
f1eld, 49 ( I ) ; teachings like spring
breeze, 49 ( I ) ; zazen done facing
wall, 9 (3). I 97
soul, I 55-56, 2I 8, 3 39
sound, sound, 35, 9I , I 5J , I63, I 68-,
I72, I 8I , 22I , 257. 304
Sourcc, 70, 304, 3 IO
Sourc of Japanese Tradition, 24 ( I ) , 89
( I ) , 338
Sozan Honjaku, 345
space, xii, I 5 , 1 62, I6, I70, I 8o, 29
spinal column, position of in zazen, 3 1
Sri Aurobindo Ashram, 255 ( I )
Stcinilbcr-Obcrlin, E. , I 1 ( I )
Su, Mount, 323
substance, 346
sufering, see pain
suprnatural, belief in, 58, I78
Supreme Way, 46, 48, 284
Surangaa sutra, see Ryogon sutra
Sutra of the Lotus of the Wonderful
Law, se Lotus sutra
sutas (scripture}, I 7, 23, 27, 6, I 4,
I 68, I 74, 346; as catalogue of Mind
nature, I 74; chanted to develop faith,
I 7; chanting of like Oriental paint
ing, I 7; chanting of as zazen, I7; like
empty space, I 7; like fnger poitng
to moon, I67; as inspiration, 259;
reading after satori, 346; substance of
in everybody, 174; truth lie outside
of, I77
Su-za, see Su, Mount
Suzuki, Daisetz T., x, xii, 83, 84, 3 3 3
Swami Prabhavananda, 25 1
Swami Pramananda, 25 I
swordsman, 54
tada, 284, 285, 286
Taihci-ji, 259, 26o, 346
Tai-san, 242, 243, 24
Taji-roshi, 229, 230, 272, 288, 332
takuhatsu, 22 3, 346-4 7, 348
Takusui-zenji, 16
tan, 194, 195 , 347
Tangen-san, 223, 228
Tanka, 21 2, 347
tantric Buddhism, 1 2-I 3, J27, 347
Tao, 337
Tao Chcng ofNan Ye, J28
Taoism, 326, 3 37
Tao-lin, see Dorin
Tao Teh Ching, 140
(
1 ) , 337
Tathagata, see Nyorai
tea ceremony, 41
teisho, 55, 56, 63 , 66-67
, 6.
70, 77, 86
temple, 347
Tcndai
, 50, J26, JJO
, 346, 34
8
Tendo Monatery, 6, JJO, 341
ten evil deeds, 161 , 348
ten quarters, 348
Te-shan, see Tokusan
Theravada, see Hinayana
thought, thought (concepts, ideas): all
impermanent, 29; curse of human
mind, 248; sickness of human mind,
29; "steam of life-and-death," 29;
transitory and fixed, 29, 30; when
wisely employed, 29
Three Evil Paths, I6I , I64, I84, 348
"Three Gates of Oryu," 248
Three Hundred Koans with Commentaries,
9 ( I )
three poisons, I 76
Three Treasures, I98) 342, 348-49
Three Worlds, I 65, I67, 349
Tibet, 257, 327
T'ien-jan, see Tanka
T'ien-t'ai, see Tendai
T'ien-t'ung Monastery, see Tendo
Monastery
time, xii, I S , I 7I , 296 f.
Tokugawa shogunate, 3 39
Tokusan, I 86, 349
tongue, position of in zazen, 3 I
Tozan Ryokai, 28I , 3 3 1 , 345, 349
trance, 244, 263 ; sec also makyo
Tripitaka, 323
triratna, see Three T rcasurcs
True-nature, see Buddha-nature
True-self, see Buddha-nature
Truth, 20, 23, 89, Io6, I4I , I 76 ( I) 177,
I78. 1 80, 329.
3 39
Truth ofLife, The, 245
Ts'ao-shan Pen-chi, see Sozan Honjaku
Tsing-tu-tsung, see Pure Land
Ts'ung-jung-lu, se Shoyo-roku
Udana I, I O ( I)
Ummon, 186 (2), 350
universe (cosmos, world) , xii, 93. 94 (2) ,
1 1 4, I I9, I 20, I 4I , 233, 253, 274, 288,
3 1 2 ( I 2) ; and deth, I 20; hara as
center of, 67; illuminated by One
mind, I 67, 1 69; and man, 43,
4
, 1 1 4, I 48, I SO
, l
S I (I ), 247, 248;
and Mind, 162, 233; and "Ouch! "
I NDEX I 363
I I9; and time, 296; true nature of, 1 65
unsui, 327, 340
Vairochana, see Birushana
vajra, 350
Vajracchcdika Prajna Paramita, see
Diamond sutra
Vajra king, 176, 182, 335
vajra sword, see jewel sword
Vasubandhu, 337
visions, 38-41 , 223, 266; sec also makyo
Void, xiii, I 62, 1 91 , p8; see also Emp-
tiness
Vow, see Four Vows
Wadeigassui (Bassui) , I 59
Wai-tao, Bhikshu, 344
walking, see kinhin
Wanshi, 345
water, 29, 30, 164, I 8o, 193, 327-28
wato, 3 37
Watts, Alan, 2I , 22, 83, 84
Way, I 70, 209, 279, 284, 29 ( 1 )
,
30I ,
3 I 1 325, 340, 349
Way ofZe, The (Watts), 2I , 83
Wei-lang, see Eno
West River, I 7I , I 78
"wheel oflife, " 345
Wheel of Life, The (Blofcld), I96 ( I ),
328
White, Lynn, xi
"White Cloud," 24 (2), 244
will, I4, 59, 9. 97, 9
William ofMocrbcke, xii
wisdom, 28, 7I , 89, 98, 279, 280, 28 1 ,
325. 332
work (manual labor), I 8, 37, ZUUI
225. 334. 348
world, see universe
Wu-men, see Muran
wu wei, 2I S, 350
Yaezakura, 273
Yakusan Igen-zcnji, 297 ( 1 )
yakuseki, 202 ( I )
.
Yamada, Kyozo, xvii-xviii, 2I 3 , 21 4
Yama-raja, I78, 350
364 I I NDEX
yang and yin, 37, 350
Yasutani-roshi, 4, ), 8, 24-26, 95-6,
1 9 (2), 21 3-14, 224, 241
l
. , 259, 272,
J JO, 346, and "bat" Zen, 1 5 ; his em
phasis on faith, 4
yaza, 23, 351
yoga, 42, 43, 1 27, 351
"Yoga and Chrstian Spiritual Tech-
niques" {Bloom) , 191 ( 1 )
Y ogaanda, 240
Yoka, 165, 351
Yung-chia, see Yoka
Yun-men, see Ummon
zazen: actalization of Buddha-nature,
20, 45, 58, 1 26; argument against, 21 ;
batle between delusion and bodhi,
1 3 ; best time for, 36; and body-mind
equilibrium, 1 4; and body-mind
vigor, 1 3 ; and breathing, 1 1 ; and the
Buddha's enlightenment, 28; in a
chair, 21 , 3 1 6, 320; and clcar aware
ness, w; and countng at!!e
counting the breath; docs nt bcs.
t
Buddhahood, 22; Dogen's view of, 9;
ad enlightenment, _8; and eyes, 3 1 ,
193; and food, j7t 93 ; fundamcnt;
to Zen discipline, 2
,
S
4; "gateway to
total liberation," 9; how long at one
sitting, 36-37; how to tcrminate,
J J ;
illumines three principles of exist
ence, 1 5 ; indispensable, 288; and
jorki, 200; and koans, 12; a method of
sarching heart-mind, 9; mobile
zazen, 1 1 ; and moral conduct, 14;
more than technique for enlighten
ment, 45 ; not asceticism, 19 3; not idle
reverie, I J; not meditation, 1 2; not
stopping of consciousness, 32; for
physical and mental health, 61 ; post
satori zazen, 1 9; postures, see ps
tures for zazen; and precept, 1 3 ; dur
ing pregnancy, 13 3-34; removes anx
iety, 2; and spinal column, 3 1 ;
theory not essential for, 27; three aims
of, 46; and time, 57; transforms per
sonality ad character, 1 3 ; uniqueness
of, 1 3
zazenkai, 24, 246, 247, J5 1
Zzen Wasan, sec Chant in Paise of
Zazen
Zazen Yojinki, ]7, 40, 351
Zen, 351 ; and archery, 4; attraction of,
xiii; "beat" Zen, 1 5 ; a Buddhist way
of liberation, xv; buji Zen, 282; fve
varieties of, see ftve varieties of Zen;
and haiku, 4; impression on three
noted W cstcrncrs, xi-xii; introduc
tion into Japan, xi, 3 3 0; and
Mahayana sect, 3 5 1 ; a method of
direct experience, xiii; its monastery
life, 348; no dependence on words,
346; not alien or mystical, 85; not
ppilosophy, 20; pseudo-Zen, xv;
rd psychology, 4, 84; a religion, xv;
sickness, 289; "smell" of, 287, 3 1 3 ;
transmission outside the surras, 346;
ad the West, xii-xiii, 83, 226
zendo, 192, 351
Zn in English Liteature and Oriental
Classics (Blyth), 83
zenji, 35 1
Zenrui No. I U_ 205 ( 1 )
Zen sect, 47, 325, 346, 348, 3 5 1
Zenso Mondo, 1 1 ( 1 )
Zen Teaching ofHuang Po, The, ZZ
Zen texts, xviii
Zimmer, Heinrich, 65 { 1 )
Zuimonki, 89