Week 1-4

2/19/2015
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Gay,Catholic,andCalledtoLove
January 15, 2015
WhattodoiftheSupremeCourtapproves
"samesexmarriage"?
"ItWasaRealKillingField":RememberingIwo
Jima
Ukraine:DisinformationandConfusion
AninterviewwithauthorEveTushnetabouthernewbook,GayandCatholic:
AcceptingMySexuality,FindingCommunity,LivingMyFaith
JohnPaulShimek
RecentConflictsinChina:ChurchDemolitions,
CrossRemoval,andaHiddenBishop
TheAtlanticmagazine:ISISis"veryIslamic,"
"apocalyptic,"and"avowedlygenocidal"
TheirbloodconfessesChrist:PopeFrancison
themurderofEgyptianChristiansbyISIS
*UPDATED*
EveTushnet(left)istheauthorof"GayandCatholic:AcceptingMySexuality,FindingCommunity,LivingMy
Faith,"publishedbyAveMariaPress.
Thedaughteroftwoatheistacademicswhocameoutasgayinmiddleschool,Eve
TushnetwasinmanyrespectsanunlikelyconverttoCatholicism.Butconvertshedid,
andshetellsherstoryinhernewbook,GayandCatholic:AcceptingMySexuality,
FindingCommunity,LivingMyFaith(AveMariaPress).
Inherbook,TushnetrecountshowduringherfirstweekatYaleUniversity,she
decidedtospendsometimegawkingatzooanimalsi.e.,membersofa
conservativedebatesociety.Shereportshowsheendedupinalongargumentwith
oneofthezooanimals,aCatholicdivinityschoolstudent.Throughhercontactwith
thedebatesocietyanditsCatholicmembers,shecametoencountertheChurch.Like
PopeFrancis,thoseCatholicdebatersjourneyedtotheedges,dialoguingwitha
young,precocious,andoutspokenwomanwhoheadedinto[the]debateinhotpink
fishnets,atigerprintskirtheldtogetherwithsafetypinsandlies,andaBoyScoutT
shirt,clutchingabookbySisterSouljah.
Today,EveTushnettravelstotheedgesherself.SheblogsatPatheos,andherwriting
hasappearedintheNewYorkTimes,theAtlantic,theWeeklyStandard,
Commonweal,andFirstThings,amongotherplaces.Lastmonthshewasfeaturedon
thefrontpageoftheMetrosectionoftheWashingtonPost.Inthatarticle,reporter
MichelleBoorsteindescribesTushnetasaleaderinasmallbutgrowingmovementof
celibategayChristianswhofinditeasierthanbeforetobeoutoftheclosetintheir
traditionalchurchesbecausetheyrecelibate.
Recently,IhadthechancetospeakwithTushnetabouthernewbook.
JohnPaulShimek:Letstalkforamomentaboutthedesignofthebook.Alotof
Christianbooksabouthomosexualityusecoverartthatsendsadepressingmessage.
Thecolorsaredark.Ifpeoplearedepicted,theirfacesarentshown.MelindaSelmys
bookSexualAuthenticity(OurSundayVisitor,2009)brokeprecedentinthatitfeatured
awomansface.
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/3628/gay_catholic_and_called_to_love.aspx
NewsBriefs
2/19 CardinalDolan:ISISthreatenswhole
civilizationnoonecanbesilent
2/19 PopeFrancis'dailychallenge:Whowillyou
followGodortheworld?
2/19 Communionfordivorcedandremarried?
Africa'sbishopshaveotherconcerns,cardinalsays
2/19 WhythisbishopisstayinginLibyaafterthe
ISISmassacre
1/13
2/19/2015
Yourbookisdifferent.Itscoverdesignfeaturesabrightwhitebackgroundandrainbow
colors.Whatkindofamessagedoyouhopethecoversendstowouldbereaders?
EveTushnet:Iplayednoroleinpickingthetitleorthecover,butIthinktheyworkwell.
Ilikethebrightcolors,asyounote,andthegeneralairofunapologeticopenness.I
lovethatMelindasbookhasafaceonthecover,sincesomanyChristianbooksabout
homosexualityhavethesereallyshametingedcovers:themanlookingdownwithhis
faceinshadow,theguyonlyvisiblefromnecktowaist,thebandagedbrokenheart.I
reallywantedthebooktofeelmatteroffact,personal,andhopeful.
Shimek:Afterthecover,oneofthethingsInoticedimmediatelyaboutthebookwas
thatitcarriesendorsementsfrompeoplelikeElizabethScalia,RobertGeorge,and
BrandonVogt.Maybeadecadeago,theonlypeopletalkingabouthomosexualitywere
thoseclosetotheissue:gaypeoplethemselvesandtheirpastoralministers,for
example.
Doyouhaveasensethatmorepeoplearetalkingaboutthisissuenow?Shouldntall
Catholicsbeinvolvedinthisdiscussioneveniftheyarentdirectlyimpactedbyit?
Tushnet:IdothinkitsgoodthatstraightCatholicsarechallengingthemselvesto
understandexperiencesandpastoralneedswhichmaybequitedifferentfromtheir
own.WehavealottolearnfromoneanotherIvelearnedsomuchaboutmyown
vocationsbywatchingmystraight,marriedfriends.
Whatsmostexcitingtome,though,isthatgayChristiansourselvesarebeingmore
vocal.Werecomingoutbothaboutourorientationandourcelibacy,andthat
movementisreshapinghowchurchesaddressgaypeople.Thatwasallbut
unimaginablewhenIbecameCatholicanditssohearteningandfascinating.
Shimek:SooftenweheartalkabouttheChurchsteachingabouthomosexuality.
Somearequicktorespondwithaquestion:Whatteaching?Dothreeparagraphsin
theCatechismandamoralprohibitionagainsthomogenitalactivityconstitutea
teaching?DoestheChurchhavealotmorethinkingtodoonthisissue?Couldthe
Churchsteachingonhomosexualitydeveloptoacceptpermanent,stable,butnon
sexualrelationshipsbetweentwohomosexuals?
Tushnet:Well,theChurchdoesntactuallyprohibitloveorcommitmentorpromisesor
carebetweentwomembersofthesamesex.Sheprohibitssexbetweenthem.My
bookexploressomeofthewaystheChurchhashonoreddevoted,samesexlovein
thepast,likevowsoffriendshipwhichunitedhouseholds.IdothinktheChurchshould
rediscoverfriendshipasaformofkinshipthatwouldincludestraightpeopletoo,
obviously!Therearealsopeopleexploringthepossibilitiesofcelibatepartnerships,
whichborrowfrommonasticmodels,creatingakindofmonasteryoftwo,orfrom
siblinghood,creatingahouseholdofsistersinChrist.
Whetheranyofthesearrangementsareagoodideaforaparticulargaypersonwho
lovesaparticularothergaypersonisamatterfortheirrespectivespiritualdirectors.
AndlikeIsaid,thesearemodelswhichareavailabletostraightpeopleaswellsomeof
them,suchasdevotedorvowedfriendship,areopentomarriedpeoplewhowishto
bringanunmarriedfriendintotheirfamilyorunitetheirhouseholdwithanothercouples
household.
Shimek:ManyindicatorsseemtosuggestthattheChurchhaslostthedebateover
samesexmarriage.Whatdidwedowrong?Howcanwereframethediscussion?
Tushnet:Istayedawayfromthequestionofgaymarriageinthebookonpurpose.The
onethingIllsayaboutitisthatwevepersistentlynarroweddownthekindsof
relationshipsweconsiderfamily,worthyofcommitmentandsocialhonor.Nowadays
theonlywayyoucanmakeapubliclyhonoredcommitmenttoanotheradultistomarry
thatperson.Partofthereasonthegaymarriagedebateissoheatedisthatgaypeople
dontperceiveanyotherwaythattheycanpromisetoloveandcareforanotherperson
andgivingandreceivingdevotedloveisabasichumanlonging.
SoonewayCatholicscanturndowntheheat,perhaps,isbyhonoringotherformsof
loveandcare.Ifpeopletreatedfriendshipas(insomecases)aformofkinship,
deservingofthesamesocialhonorasmarriageand,letsbeblunthere,thesame
practicalsupport,suchashealthbenefitsandcompassionateleavepoliciesfor
caregivershowwouldoursocietychange?Howwouldourownliveslookdifferentif
wetookfriendshipmoreseriouslyasaformofsacrificiallove,animageofGodslove
forus?
2/13
2/19/2015
Shimek:ImremindedofPopeEmeritusBenedictXVIsdiscussionofFraternity,
EconomicDevelopment,andCivilSocietyinhispartingencyclicalletterCaritasin
Veritate.Perhaps,gayandlesbianCatholicscanhelpusrestoretheimportanceof
friendship,fraternity,andcommitmentoutsideofmarriageasfoundationalprinciplesfor
afreeandjustsociety.MaybethisisaspecialgifttheybringtotheChurchatthispoint
intime.
SometimesitissaidthattheChurchsmoralprohibitionagainsthomogenitalactivityis
anunfundedmandatehomosexualsaretoldwhatnottodo,butnotwhattodo.The
Magisteriumseemstobesilentonquestionsabouttheroleandvocationofthe
homosexualintheChurch.Thoseinthepewssometimesaffixasocialstigmatobeing
gay,evenifoneiscelibateandupholdsChurchteaching.Isthereabetterwayof
approachingthisissueandthosedirectlyaffectedbyit?Howdowemovetowarda
brighterday,sotospeak?
Tushnet:Ohyeah,thankyou,thisisclosetotheheartofwhatmybookisabout.First
ofall,weabsolutelycandobettertowelcomegaypeopleintheChurch.Ihavesome
suggestionsinmybooksfinalappendixforthosewhoarelookingforspecificideas.
Moregenerally,themessagegaypeopleoverwhelminglyhearfromtheCatholic
Churchis,Youcantgetmarriedandyoucanthavesex.Whattheyshouldbe
hearingwhatweshouldbesayinginsteadis,YouarecreatedbyGodinlove,and
calledtoloveandserveothers.YourecalledbothtogiveandreceivelovetoGodand
tothosearoundyou.Yourecalledtoincreasethebeautyandtendernessintheworld.
Herearesomeofthemanywaysyoucanleadafruitful,beautifullife:mysticalprayer,
artistry,servicetothoseinneed,servicetoyourfamilyoforiginorcreationofafamily
ofchoice,anddevotedfriendshipbutthatsonlyaglimpseofthewidearrayof
vocationsyoumighthave.Wepromisetowalkwithyouandsupportyouinyour
vocations,asyousupportusinours.
AbouttheAuthor
JohnPaulShimekthepilgrimjournalist@gmail.com
JohnPaulShimekisaRomanCatholictheologianandaspecialistonVaticanaffairs.In
March2013,hereportedfromRomeontheelectionofPopeFrancis,thefirstLatin
AmericanpopeinthehistoryoftheCatholicChurch.
AllcommentspostedatCatholicWorldReportaremoderated.Whilevigorousdebateiswelcomeand
encouraged,pleasenotethatintheinterestofmaintainingacivilizedandhelpfullevelofdiscussion,
commentscontainingobscenelanguageorpersonalattacksorthosethataredeemedbytheeditorsto
beneedlesslycombativeandinflammatorywillnotbepublished.Thankyou.
152 Comments
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Michael Brooks
a month ago
What has been said in the interview touches on my Heart.

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SSSaaasssssy
a month ago
I am extremely excited to read this book and want to send my prayers and
congratulations to Eve for having the fortitude to write this book! You are truly
an inspiration. May God bless you abundantly.
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DrFitzgibbons
a month ago
It is hoped that during the Synod on the Family that will

take place in October 2015, the discussion of homosexual unions will take
into account the serious risk factors inherent in the homosexual lifestyle that
were overlooked in this interview.
Today, numerous peer-reviewed published studies report serious
psychological and medical risks associated
with same sex unions.
http://catholiceducation.org/e....
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Mike Koopman > DrFitzgibbons
a month ago
Thank you for the link to a very informative and Catholic website. For
me, however, the following quote takes on the face of the early
Christians working in the leper colonies and not a promotion of either
illicit sex or immoral living.
"How would our own lives look different if we took friendship more
seriously as a form of sacrificial love, an image of Gods love for us?"
4
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DrFitzgibbons > Mike Koopman
a month ago
Mike,
There is a large difference between silently serving those in
leper colonies and being silent in the face of the scientific
evidence regarding the serious medical and psychological risks
associated with those who embrace the homosexual lifestyle.
Mental health professionals, physicians, nurses and school
counselors have a clear legal responsibility to provide
informed consent about these risks and parents, family
members, educators and clergy have a moral responsibility to
be informed and to do so also.
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Lutesuite > DrFitzgibbons
a month ago
How do you define "the homosexual lifestyle",

DrFizgibbons? Is a same sex couple who are legallly
married and in a committed monogamous relationship
engaging in "the homosexual lifestyle"? If so, to what
"serious medical and psychological risks" are they
subjecting themselves?
1
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accelerator > Lutesuite
a month ago
In a word, sodomy. It is unhealthy. Even Dr Drew knows

that.
4
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Lutesuite > accelerator
a month ago
In a word, sodomy. It is unhealthy. Even Dr Drew knows

that.
Ah. Well, by far the most "sodomy" going on is being
engaged in by heterosexuals. So I'm not sure why it
would be called a "homosexual lifestyle". And if
"sodomy" is the issue, then that has nothing to do with
the issue of same sex marriage. You just make sure all
people, gay AND straight, are aware of the relative risks
of the various acts of "sodomy" and take the
appropriate precautions. That might mean the couples
choose not to engage in "sodomy" at all, which gay
couples can do just as well as straight ones.
Reply Share
FW Ken > Lutesuite
a month ago
You could ask my gay friends what "the gay lifestyle"

mean. I got the term from them.
Reply Share
Lutesuite > FW Ken
a month ago
You could ask my gay friends what "the gay lifestyle"

mean. I got the term from them.
I suspect they might have a different understanding of
the term from someone who considers homosexuality
to be "disordered" and sinful.
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FW Ken > Lutesuite
a month ago
4/13
2/19/2015
That was nonsensical. They are quite comfortable and
open with the term. Of course, they are not out on the
Internet seeking approval.
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Lutesuite > FW Ken
a month ago
They are quite comfortable and open with the term.

Who said they weren't? But do they think it means they
are "disordered, sinful perverts"?
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MarcAlcan > Lutesuite
24 days ago
I suspect they might have a different understanding

of the term from someone who considers
homosexuality to be "disordered" and sinful.
The homosexual lifestyle is full of filth.
It is the multiple partners (averaging between in the
hundreds and some in the thousands). It is meeting up
for sex in public toilets and sexual orgies in parks.
If you are a homosexual you should know this for a fact.
Far too many homosexuals have testified to this.
If you are not a homosexual, then read the book "The
Challenge of Homosexuality". There you can see the
homosexual lifestyle in all its perversity. And it is all very
well documented.
The homosexual lobby holds up the rare monogamous
relationship when in fact a majority of so called
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fredx2 > Mike Koopman
a month ago
That was the only quote that disturbed me, along with the
notion that these gay friendships should be considered on the
same level as marriage in our society. Certainly we can be for
this beautiful form of sacrificial friendship, and it can enrich
their lives tremendously. But let's not move into fantasy
territory by equating these friendships with marriage.
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MarcAlcan > Mike Koopman
a month ago
How would our own lives look different if we took friendship

more seriously as a form of sacrificial love, an image of
Gods love for us?"
God's love for us is not just of a friend but that of family - of a

Father.
Reply Share
cajaquarius > DrFitzgibbons
a month ago
Your link provides correlations but makes no causal links. Without

causality, correlations are not evidence. You can no more call STDs,
for example, a trait closely associated with and inherent to
homosexuality than you can call fatherlessness a feature closely
associated with and inherent to those of African lineage. I can
certainly justify both the above claims using correlations drawn from
statistical data but without causality the correlations simply become
my opinion.
Reply Share
Lutesuite > cajaquarius
a month ago
Your link provides correlations but makes no causal links.

Without causality, correlations are not evidenve. You can no
more call STDs, for example, a trait closely associated with and
inherent to homosexuality than you can call fatherlessness a
feature closely associated with and inherent to those of African
5/13
2/19/2015
feature closely associated with and inherent to those of African

lineage.
The more important issue is that DrFitzgibbons' uses those

correlations to justify denying rights and privileges to
homosexuals. For any group of people that can be defined by
ethnicity, gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc. it can likely
be demonstrated that certain health or social problem are more
prominent in that group. That is not an argument to justify
oppressing that group. It's an argument for identifying the
causes of those problems and trying to correct them.
For example, DrFitzgibbons' source says that homosexual men
are more likely to commit suicide than straight men. That is
probably true. But white and aboriginal men are more likely to
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cajaquarius > Lutesuite
a month ago
I agree, but try and keep it simple. The foundation is

faulty so if I attack that then the whole house of cards
built atop it crumbles too. They are left with no rational
basis for the denying of rights or services based off of
romantic orientation.
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Lutesuite > cajaquarius
a month ago
I agree, but try and keep it simple.

There are people here who think it's impossible to
prove that they don't have three heads. Believe me, you
can't possibly keep it simple enough for some.
Reply Share

Anne Marie
a month ago
I'd be curious to know if she ever read St. Aelred de Rivaulx's book "On
Friendship." I think that would fit in well in such a discussion.
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Adam Keeler
a month ago
I'm curious how one can self identify as gay and catholic. It seems the church
specifically uses the term "A person with SSA" rather than gay for the
specific reason of not summing identity with how one sexually orients
themselves. I have yet to read the book and will, but I'm curious how the
teachings on life reflect into her thought process. Also, being Catholic is not
something someone can attach another adjective to. It's not gay and
catholic. It's catholic period. It's a sublte but crucial difference. It's like saying
"I'm an american catholic", there's no such thing in the Catholic Church. We
either bow to the teachings of the church we allegedly follow because it is the
Lords representative on earth or we act in rebellion and use adjectives in
order to soften the nature of our own self will. The other aspect is the
apparent decision that sexual orientation is permanent and not malleable,
which is untrue, the brain is completely capable change at any time.
20
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Facile1 > Adam Keeler
a month ago
Thank you for making this point.

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Johan Peter Oliveire > Adam Keeler
a month ago
Yet I am very proud to say that I am a Roman Catholic, just as I would

be proud to say I am a Ruthenian Catholic or Belarussian Catholic or
Greek-Melkite Catholic if I were any of these. Yet I would be Catholic
in any case.
The Church as She exists in particular places has always, with time,
been identifiable and identified by practices which make use of local
elements. The collection of these practices, in certain places, has
been so long-standing and venerable as to become what they are
presently - ritual Churches. This is a fact of history but, while their
number (23) may not increase any time soon, the developmental
concept remains.
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2/19/2015
concept remains.
In other words, yes, you can be an American Catholic. What you can't
do, for example (and a poor one at that, I suppose), is go absolutely
anywhere outside of the US and expect to find a March for Life every
22 January... because this is only done in the US, albeit by many
persons...including "American Catholics".
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Fr. James > Adam Keeler
a month ago
Although you make some valid points, there is also the issue of being
able to communicate to the men and women of the culture around us,
which is a lot of what I hear from this interview and book. We have to
be able to reach across the huge (and growing) chasm between
faithful Catholics and more secular members of the culture and those
who self-identify as "gay." Therefore, without compromising doctrine
(which such language does not do) we need to discuss and entertain
the possibility of new strategies for engagement. The one reality we
must keep in mind is that people who identify as gay and those who
love and support them are human beings created in the image of God,
who want to love and be loved. This becomes our starting point.
Peace! Fr. James Bromwich, President, The Neri Institute and author
of "Toolkit for Evangelization."
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Adam Keeler > Fr. James
a month ago
Fr. James thanks for the reply. I agree with you about finding a
way to communicate without compromise but I'm leery of
using the terminology of gay. Mainly because of the
perceptions it immediately implies which are in conflict with
Catholic dogma, mainly that a person is locked into their
sexual identity and that makes it an ok orientation or that God
made them that way, which is just as bad if not worse. There's
no communication if the terms are not at least partially
objective because of the weight behind them. I do not think we
can have an open discussion if we reinforce erroneous
ideology. Pursuing and reinforcing the human being made in
Gods image is core, we are not our sexuality nor our pasts, we
are Gods children who have sinned. Yes we are made in the
image of God, but that's been tarnished by sin, whether we are
sinned against or sinning ourselves. At the core we are still
human beings but we must continue to change into the image
of God intended for us, through his Son, through sanctifying
ourselves, which includes our sexuality. To be clear I am not
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MarcAlcan > Adam Keeler
a month ago
Thank you so much for very clear posts that hit the nail
right on the head.
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Fr. James > Adam Keeler
a month ago
Thank you, Adam, for your good comment. I cannot say

I disagree with anything you said. I have long thought
and believed the same things. It is difficult, isn't it, to
help people understand these deeper points while still
trying to walk with (evangelizing) those who are no
where near understanding such points, partly because
the language is so pervasive and accepted. My hope is
that through these kinds of writings and discussions we
will develop ways to communicate to a culture that
largely does not want to hear what we have to say.
Personal witness in addition to reason may be needed
to accomplish this. I have long believed that St. Joseph
is an important "go to" saint for men struggling with
SSA, as our Immaculate Mother is for women (not to
compartmentalize them too much). St. Paul, pray for us!
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2/19/2015
compartmentalize them too much). St. Paul, pray for us!
Peace in the Hearts of Jesus, Mary and Joseph. -Fr.
James
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Sean Halnon > Adam Keeler
a month ago
What leads you to think God did not make gay people
the way they are?
Gay people are born that way. Theres no valid reason to
doubt that.
Gay people are not sexually broken. Sin breaks us, but
being gay is not a sin. Sex outside matrimony is,
howevet being bron gay is not.
Theres nothing wrong woth gay people. God created
them with a unique and challenging cross to carry.
Reply Share
CarlsPatrick > Sean Halnon
a month ago
That is incorrect. There is no evidence that people are

born gay or that God created them. We all grow up with
tendencies no different than leaning towards drugs,
infidelity, theft, etc. Otherwise what you're saying is, it is
as justifiable as saying people are born murderers,
pedophiles, rapists, drug addicts, etc. The only thing I
agree with you here is being gay is not a sin, but gay
practice is. Just like temptation is not a sin, but it is
what you do with the temptation that is sinful. God did
not create homosexuality no more than he did not
create murder, drug addiction, etc. Human beings have
invented these things. But humanity as it is nowadays
always seeks justification for its errors without seeking
redemption.
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Adam Keeler > Sean Halnon
a month ago
Sean, with all due respect there are plenty of reasons to

doubt. The first are theological, second philosophical
and the third scientific. To address the first we have to
look at original intent and fallen nature. The original
intent in Eden was man and woman in perfection, there
are no references to any SSA and doubtful there would
be. There are also the direct forbidden actions in the
Torah against homosexual actions. Saying God made
someone one gay then prevents them from acting out
makes God seem schizophrenic which is not true.
Essential mankind begets mankind in fallen nature and
therefore there is room for sinful aspects to be passed
down. But as for God directly making someone gay is
like saying God makes murderers and saints, He
doesn't directly, but he allows nature and the persons
choices to create themselves but will intervene when
asked to correct and restore. The philosophocal
problem presents itself with the nature function. Given
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MarcAlcan > Adam Keeler
a month ago
That is a brilliant summation of what I thought was wrong with this

article.
Subtle but oh so important.
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cajaquarius > Adam Keeler
a month ago
"Also, being Catholic is not something someone can attach another

adjective to."
The family doctor in my town would call himself a Catholic doctor. My
grandpa on my dad's side was proud to be an Irish Catholic from a
long line of Irish Catholics. I don't recall the "no adjective" rule being
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2/19/2015
long line of Irish Catholics. I don't recall the "no adjective" rule being
enforced till recently and only ever in regards to those romantically
oriented to the same sex.

Facile1
Reply Share
a month ago
The message gay people should be hearing from the Catholic Church is
"Homo-genital activity is not LOVE. Only GOD is LOVE."
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MarcAlcan > Facile1
a month ago
Or the plain simple truth that it is a perversion.

Unless we see that for what it is, all this talk about gay marriage is just
skirting around the issue.
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Lutesuite > MarcAlcan
a month ago
Or the plain simple truth that it is a perversion.

So no "perverts" should be allowed to get married? How do
you suggest we enforce that? Do we require that all couples
who plan to get married submit a list to the state of all the
sexual practices in which they plan to engage, based on which
the state will determine whether the couple are "perverts" and
should be allowed to marry?
Reply Share
a month ago
So no "perverts" should be allowed to get married?
That's not what I said.

You have to learn to grasp what is being said then reply
from that understanding.
At the heart of gay marriage is an affirmation and a
solidification of pervertion.
Suppose paedophiles were to move for the legalization
of sex between children and adults. Would you be okay
if paedphiles were to move for marriage between a child
and an adult? Do we have the right to deny paedophile
perverts the right to marry the object of their desire?
Should we also allow people who engage in bestiality
the right to marry their pets or any animal they please?
If something is intrinsically wrong, why would you
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a month ago
Suppose paedophiles were to move for the legalization

of sex between children and adults. Would you be okay
if paedphiles were to move for
marriage between a child and an adult?
No, because that would be detrimental and harmful to
the child, who is not in a position to make a free and
mature choice about engaging in sex. That's why age of
consent laws exist.
What does this have to do with same sex marriage?
Should we also allow people who engage in bestiality
the right to marry their pets or any animal they please?
No, because marriage is a contract between two
competent adult human beings. Animals are not
allowed to enter into contracts.
Again, what does this have to do with same sex
see more
9/13
2/19/2015
Gay, Catholic, and Called to

Love | Catholic World Report - Global Church news and views
see more
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a month ago
That's why age of consent laws exist.

Which is a movable feast. In some countries it is as low
as 5.
And guess which group is at the forefront of the push to
lower the age of consent? The homosexuals.
No, because marriage is a contract between two
competent adult human beings.
Your question was "So no "perverts" should be allowed

to get married?".
If according to you "perverts" should be allowed to get
married, then why should it be your criteria that decides
which perversion should be allowed?
Secondly, marriage is NOT just a contract between two
competent adult human beings, it is a contract between
see more
Reply Share
a month ago
Which is a movable feast. In some countries it is as low

as 5.
Oh, really? And which country would that be?
And guess which group is at the forefront of the push to
lower the age of consent? The homosexuals.
"The homosexuals"? All of them?
Careful, someone might think you were acting like a
bigot who blames things on "the Jews" or "the blacks".
Your question was "So no "perverts" should be allowed
to get married?". If according to you "perverts" should
be allowed to get married, then why should it be your
criteria that decides which perversion should be
allowed?
I don't think "perversion" should be an issue in
see more
Reply Share
25 days ago
Oh, really? And which country would that be?

My apologies, that should have read 12. In Chile and
Paraguay.
"The homosexuals"? All of them?
The homosexual lobby - in particular NAMBLA.

I don't think "perversion" should be an issue in
permitting marriage at all, whatever "perversion" is
even supposed to mean.
But your question was "So no "perverts" should be
allowed to get married?".
Why ask that if it is not an issue?
Just saying something does not make it true.
see more
Reply Share
10/13
2/19/2015
24 days ago
The homosexual lobby - in particular NAMBLA.

NAMBLA is as much a part of the "homosexual lobby"
as the Ku Klux Klan is part of the "Christian lobby". Or,
for that matter, as anyone advocating for heterosexual
pedophilia is part of the "heterosexual lobby."
Reply Share
23 days ago
NAMBLA is as much a part of the "homosexual

lobby" as the Ku Klux Klan is part of the "Christian
lobby".
Unfortunately for you, it is part of the homosexual

lobby.
Yes, the other homosexuals would like to downplay
their involvement but they are right there with you. In
fact, they boldly make the claim that the general
manifestation of homosexuality in the West is
pederasty.
Reply Share
23 days ago
Unfortunately for you, it is part of the homosexual lobby.

Does NAMBLA even exist anymore?
Meanwhile, the continued existence of the KKK, as part
of the pro-Christian and anti-gay lobby, remains beyond
dispute. Powerful members of Congress even attend
conferences arranged by its leaders. Why can't you
guys seem to get rid of this organization, the way the
gays got rid of NAMBLA?
Reply Share
22 days ago
Firstly, you have the dumb notion that somehow

Christianity is an association like the LGBT. It is isn't.
Secondly, NAMBLA's ethos mirror LGBT's perfectly and
the only reason the LGBT rejected NAMBLA was
because it was trying to sanitize it's image at the UN
and society in general.
The KKK's belief on the other hand is the opposite of
what Christianity teaches.
Reply Share
22 days ago
Firstly, you have the dumb notion that somehow

Christianity is an association like the LGBT. It is isn't.
Really? So who is the "Pope" of LGBT? Where are its
"churches"? Can you show me a copy of its
"cathechism"?
Secondly, NAMBLA's ethos mirror LGBT's perfectly and
the only reason the LGBT rejected NAMBLA was
because it was trying to sanitize it's image at the UN
and society in general.
So your claim is that the majority of homosexuals
condone pedophilia, that this reflects their "ethos"?
What an outright lie.
Reply Share
21 days ago
Really? So who is the "Pope" of LGBT? Where are its

"churches"? Can you show me a copy of its
"cathechism"?
And isn't that precisely what I said? That the
11/13
2/19/2015
And isn't that precisely what I said? That the
Christianity is not association like the LGBT?
So your claim is that the majority of homosexuals

condone pedophilia, that this reflects their "ethos"?
What an outright lie.
Well explain the fact that before they got rid of

NAMBLA it was very much a part of the LGBT. If they
don't condone NAMBLA, how in the world did they end
up being a member? They only got rid of NAMBLA
because they wanted to be recognized by the UN.
Reply Share
21 days ago
And isn't that precisely what I said? That the Christianity

is not association like the LGBT?
You misunderstand. You seem to be saying that
"LGBT" is some sort of well-structured organization,
like the Catholic Church, with a clear chain of
leadership and codified rules. "LGBT" is nothing of the
sort. To say that "LGBT" approves of this or that group
or position is like saying. "White people" or "tall people"
approve of a position. It's a meaningless statement.
"LGBT" denotes nothing more than a group of people
who share certain aspects of theirs sexuality in
common, but otherwise have diverse and contradictory
views on politics, religion, etc.
Well explain the fact that before they got rid of NAMBLA
it was very much a part of the LGBT. If they don't
condone NAMBLA, how in the world did they end up
being a member?
see more
Reply Share
24 days ago
Anyway, does your argument not apply to any other

change to marriage legislation? For instance, when
bans on marriage between people of different race
were struck down?
Marriage laws have always discriminated against all
persons properly. For example, one cannot marry one's
sibling or parent or someone under the age of consent.
So the claim that the current laws discriminate against
only the homosexual is incorrect.
The proper discrimination in marriage laws stem not
from the attributes of persons but from what marriage
actually is. Marriage has a specific form that a same sex
couple cannot bring into existence - i.e. they cannot
actually form a marriage.
I quote here from Brendan Malone:
see more
Reply Share
23 days ago
So as I have argued before, if you are going to re-define

marriage according to your rules, then the paedophiles
and those who engage on bestiality and the polyamorist
should all be allowed to redefine marriage according to
their standards.
If they can make valid and convincing argument in their
favour, sure. But I don't believe any such arguments
exist for bestiality and pedophilia. Polygamy/polygyny?
Maybe. I have no particular horse in that race. But one
12/13
2/19/2015
of the strongest arguments in its favour is the principle
of religious freedom. So you could be hoisted on your
own petard on that one.
Brendan Malone's argument is nothing more than
another example of begging the question:
"Laws which dont recognise gay marriage are based
on the principle that marriage has a specific form that
see more
Reply Share
a month ago
It's sufficient that your ideas continue to become

increasingly marginalized and irrelevant. ,
My ideas would have been marginal in Sodom and

Gommorha before they were struck down.
My ideas would have been marginal in Rome before the
fall of the Empire.
2
Reply Share
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Join the discussion

What has been said in the interview touches on my Heart.

It is hoped that during the Synod on the Family that will

Mike Koopman > DrFitzgibbons

DrFitzgibbons > Mike Koopman

Lutesuite > DrFitzgibbons

How do you define "the homosexual lifestyle",

accelerator > Lutesuite

In a word, sodomy. It is unhealthy. Even Dr Drew knows

Lutesuite > accelerator

In a word, sodomy. It is unhealthy. Even Dr Drew knows

FW Ken > Lutesuite

You could ask my gay friends what "the gay lifestyle"

Lutesuite > FW Ken

You could ask my gay friends what "the gay lifestyle"

FW Ken > Lutesuite

Lutesuite > FW Ken

They are quite comfortable and open with the term.

MarcAlcan > Lutesuite

I suspect they might have a different understanding

fredx2 > Mike Koopman

MarcAlcan > Mike Koopman

How would our own lives look different if we took friendship

God's love for us is not just of a friend but that of family - of a

cajaquarius > DrFitzgibbons

Your link provides correlations but makes no causal links. Without

Lutesuite > cajaquarius

Your link provides correlations but makes no causal links.

feature closely associated with and inherent to those of African

The more important issue is that DrFitzgibbons' uses those

cajaquarius > Lutesuite

I agree, but try and keep it simple. The foundation is

Lutesuite > cajaquarius

I agree, but try and keep it simple.

Facile1 > Adam Keeler

Thank you for making this point.

Johan Peter Oliveire > Adam Keeler

Yet I am very proud to say that I am a Roman Catholic, just as I would

Fr. James > Adam Keeler

Adam Keeler > Fr. James

MarcAlcan > Adam Keeler

Fr. James > Adam Keeler

Thank you, Adam, for your good comment. I cannot say

Sean Halnon > Adam Keeler

CarlsPatrick > Sean Halnon

That is incorrect. There is no evidence that people are

Adam Keeler > Sean Halnon

Sean, with all due respect there are plenty of reasons to

MarcAlcan > Adam Keeler

That is a brilliant summation of what I thought was wrong with this

cajaquarius > Adam Keeler

"Also, being Catholic is not something someone can attach another

MarcAlcan > Facile1

Or the plain simple truth that it is a perversion.

Lutesuite > MarcAlcan

Or the plain simple truth that it is a perversion.

MarcAlcan > Lutesuite

So no "perverts" should be allowed to get married?

That's not what I said.

Lutesuite > MarcAlcan