BOOKS CurrentHistory A CONVERSATION WITH RAMACHANDRA GUHA E CALLS himself a “Nehruvian Indian, because he is a Tamil from Bangalore, who has a Bengali last name (by accident), and was born and raised in north India. To the rest of the world, he is better known as Ramachandra Guha, the accomplished historian, writer, essayist, columnist, political analyst and author of several notable books, the latest being “India After Gandhi: The History of the World's Largest Democracy. “The charitable would see the Nehruvian Indian as someone who would be at home in any part of India; the uncharitable would see them as someone who is out of place in every part of India,” he says with a chuckle. Born in Dehradun in Uttar Pradesh in 1958, Guha studied at the prestigious Doon School, St. Stephen's College at Delhi University and the Indian Institute of Management in Calcutta. Between 1985 and 1994, he held various academic positions in India, Europe and North America, ineluding at the University of California, Berkeley, Yale University and Stanford University Then, it was back to his roots, to Bangalore, with What has been India’s greatest ‘achievement inher GO years of Independence? bom, it was simply not given a India’s greatest achievement, chance. It was told itwas t00 ‘as argue also in my book, isin diverse, divided along the lines the realm of politics, not eco of eligion, language, caste, homies. It's tue in the ast few region to ever survive as a united nation, India was also told repeatedly, by many people who are quoted in my book, that we nd our popula tion was too literate to sustain a democracy. So the factis that we have somehow created a united polit ms. cal entity from this very eultral~ ‘cratic aller 60 testing years of independence. When India wa yas we have seen very impres: ‘ive rates of growth, but, a wo donit know i these rates of growth are sustainable, b) we were too poor donit know how deeply or widely they will be spread among the population at large, c} of course there are the wider environmen- tal impli The real achievement is that India is united and largely dem ly diverse and heterogeneous population and then run our his wife and two children. He joined the Indian, Institute of Science as the Sundaraja Visiting Professor in the Humanities and has been there ever since. Guha’s books and essays have been translated into more than 20 languages. He has received the U.K. Cricket Society’s Literary Award and the Leopold- Hidy Prize of the American Society for Environmental History. His book, “A Corner of a Foreign Field,” was awarded the Daily Telegrapl/Cricket Society Book of the Year prize for 2002. He is also a recipient of the MacArthur Research and Writing Award. Guha’s wife, Sujata Keshavan, is none other than the co-owner of Ray+Keshavan Design, recognized as one of India’s top design and branding company whose clients include Airtel, the new Mumbai, Delhi and Bangalore international airports and many oth- ers. The couple has two children, a 17-year-old son and a 14-year-old daughter Guha suffers from an asthmatic condition and while he succumbed to bouts of coughing, he patiently answered many questions in depth, with wisdom and wit. Excerpts from WIS! TILAK’s interview: My sense is thatthe opening of the economy, what i called globalization, has both benign and brutal effects thas very good effects, for example, in my hometown, Bangalore, where you use a vast pool of skilled Tabor to create value-added growth and you sel these servic. es to the West and you makea nomics and cricket, on which lot of money. It has brutal effects every indian feels he is entitled when economic growth, global to an opinion, and often astrong ization, opening out the econo> opinion, Lam not an economist, my has meant the intensification bbut there is the question that of the exploitation ofthe raw materials, Particularly minerals like iron ore and bauxite: theres massive surge of mining sp political system on largely dem: ‘oceatie lines. Lam not saying our democracy is perfect. In my bbook, I quote the Hinal film actor Johnny Walker, who says 50-50. What ae the implications of the rapid but unequal growth in India? There are two topics, eco- raised earlier how deep the of the fruits ofthe eco: sp nomic growth would be.4 activities in central India, which has a profound social effect in displacing tribal people from their land, talso has a pro- found environmental impact in Jand and ecosystem degradation ‘and it has also spawned corrup- tion and mafia and all kinds of other things. This isnot at all tobe critical ‘ofthe economic growth that has taken place. I think the economy needed to be liberalized. But we need to find ways of being more inclusive in our economic ‘growth, particularly in the regions ofthe north and the east, ‘Vast sections of our population lack the skills and education to benefit from economic liber ization. What about the people who ae lft behind and the older generation ‘that is unable to accept Mestyle changes? With rapid economic growth also comes rapid social change. Economie growth is usually accompanied by growing urban- ization and the transformation of social institutions. In India ‘one (transformation) is the breakdown ofthe joint family system and, even within nuclear families, relations between gen- erations. For example, many Indians would have been hort: fied when the first old-age homes opened in India, With the ‘middle class professionals being incredibly busy and being preoe: ccupied with their own lives, i hhas meant the neglect ofthe eld erly. especially in the cities, That ‘may not be true in the country- side, Other kinds of social changes ~ arranged marriages being replaced by love matches, ‘growing alcoholism, drug abuse and other kinds of things ~ that sometimes come with rapid evo- ‘nomic and social change are also ‘manifest in India as they have been in many other countries. ‘And lately, there has been an Increase in duatincome families ‘and education and parenting styles ‘are changing as well, ‘Thats true, Ithas changed. What is interesting about India is, at this moment, because of ‘the fact that economic growth is unevenly distributed, we still hhave a large reservoir of ‘unskilled, uneducated laborers, Most dual-ineome would have help at home, and that may not be the case 20-30 years from now. Even those who ‘work as domestic servants do not want their children to be domestic servants. In fact, one of the most heartening things I hhave noticed as a scholar and a writer is that there isa massive demand for education among the pooter classes, Halk in my book about the poli first few decades of independent India, Possibly the greatest fail ture was the failure to eradicate iMteraey. {think that the first ‘government of Jawaharlal Nehru was a visionary government Which united India and gave ita democratic constitution and did. ‘a great deal, which is sometimes underappreciated. But it did have one significant failure ~ that the resources of the state, of social activists and ofthe nation- ‘al movement were not mobilized to build a good countrywide net ‘work of primary and secondary schools o which everyone would have access. smilies -al achievements ofthe How is the disparity in wealth going to affect the stability of the political and social system? ‘There are three political threats to democratic India. The First threat is the rise of the reli ious right, particularly the Hindu right, which wants 10 ‘undermine the foundations of Indian secularism and create a Hindu theocratie state just as Pakistan might be an Islamic theocratic state. This is widely recognized and discussed. The second threat isthe secessionist ‘movernents in regions which feel vulnerable. The firs threat has ‘no economie basis. The second teat is that of regions that feel that they have been exploited or vietimized and which are striking ‘out for independence. could bbe Kashmir, Nagaland or Assam, These secessionist movements, which want to divide India into ‘many nationalities, often have some kind of economic logic, particularly the movement in the 78-THE INDIAN ay Noverrber-December 2007 state of Assam, where the Assamese feel that their timber, oll, rubber, tea has been exploit. ced by the larger economy and they have gotten nothing in return, The third threat, which isthe least noticed but one that I have been studying now for some time, isthe threat in the heart of. India in the tribal belt. That is ‘the rise of left-wing extremism in the form the Naxalite or the “I think that the first government of Jawaharlal Nehru was a visionary government, which united India and gave it a democratic constitution and did a great deal, which is sometimes underappreciated. But jt did have one significant failure — resources were not mobilized to build a good countrywide network of primary and secondary schools.” Maoist movement. This has now steadily spread to control 40 or 50 districts in the states of Chhatisgarh, Iharkhand, Mabaashtra, Orissa, Bihar, Madhya Pradesh and Andhra Pradesh, in that contiguous bill forest belt in the heart of India, The origin of this threat is, partly simply political. These people want to replace democra- ‘ey by a one-party communist state. But it does have some eco- ‘nomic roots in that (among) the tribal people and the peasants, ‘who mentioned as being the Victims of globalization, who displaced by large ‘dams and mining projects and ‘so on, have, because ofthe fil- ure of the Indian government to provide these poor and vulnera- ble communities a dignified have bee livelihood, the Maoists have found a space to move into, Do you believe globalization is affecting Indian culture an trad tions? Are we losing the weatth of culture to Westemization? That is completely absurd! sive you an example ive in Bangalore. Fifteen years ago. Kentucky Fried Chicken opened its fitst outlet in Bangalore and there was hysteria among the cultural conservatives and the xenophobes, and some activists went and attacked the first KFC ‘outlet saying that Indian food and agriculture were under a threat, Any sane person would prefer tandoori chicken or CChettinaad curtied chicken to Kentucky Fried Chicken. Indian cuisine is robust enough to hold fits own, Likewise with Indian culture, One ofthe reasons I detest the word Bollywood, and prefer the word Hindi lms, is our local film industry, particularly the Hindi, but in the regional lan- guage unil, Bengal, ‘Marathi, Kannada, Telugu and so fn, has successfully held its own, Historically, India has adapted ‘and innovated and incorporated elements of different cultures, whether it be (through) Mughal ralers, British rulers, travelers. So there is no threat to Indian eul- ture. First, there is no one Indian culture; there are many multiple Indian cultures and ifby eulure we mean aesthetics, music, clothing, food, drama, there is ‘not much ofa threat. Indian cul: tures rich and diverse and. robust enough Ithas always borrowed elements from here ‘and there and retained its core intact, So I dont see any such trends. How do you view indian nationalism and diversity? Its ike the salad bow! model ‘we each retain our diferent la: vorsand our identities We dont alllhave to speak English or sub- seribe to the American creed, ‘and that’s the only way we could hhave survived, at least in theory In practice, its sometimes bro- ken down. You do have Hindu- Muslim conflict, you have