AchyObejas

Achy:WecamefromCuba.MyparentswerefromdifferenttownsinCubaandtheymet
inHavana.AtsomepointtheydeterminedthattheyhaddifferenceswiththeCuban
revolution,sowefledCubainaboat.A20footboat,atherewere44ofouttotal.We
landedinMiami.Wewerethereforaboutayearandahalf,andinthatyearandahalf
myparentsdidavarietyofjobseverythingfromdoggroomertowaiterataChinese
restauranttofarmworkerspickingtomatoes.
Theywerebothhypereducatedpeople.Theywereboththefirstpeopleintheirfamilies
tointhecaseofmydad,itwasthefirstpersoninhisfamilytogobeyondsixthgrade,
andinthecaseofmymomitwasthefirstpersontogotocollegebuttheywereboth
ambitiousintermsofbetteringthemselvesandimaginingadifferentlife.Theyhadboth
gottendoctorates.MydadhaddegreeinlawfromtheUniversityofHavana,andmy
mominpedagogy.
WhentheygottoMiaminoneofthoseskillsreallytransferredinanykindofimmediate
level.Andmydadwasn'treallykeenonbeinghere.Healwaysimaginedthatwewould
behereforabriefperiodoftime,andthathistorywouldplayoutthewayitalwayshas,
whichisthatsomeunlikeablepersonrisestopowerinaLatinAmericancountryandthe
USgovernmentthentopplesthatperson,andputsinsomeoneperhapsevenmore
unlikeablebutmoretolerabletotheUS.Andsotheideawastowaitoutthemoment
whentheU.S.wouldinterfereinCubanpolitics.Weknowhowwellthatworkedout.
ButmymomgottotheU.S.andsaidUhoh,no,Ilikeithere.I'mnotinabighurryto
goback.Asmuchasshemissedherfamilyandshemissedherfriendsanditwasabig
adjustment,Ithinkshesawgreaterpossibilitiesforushere.Sheplayedthegameof'we'd
lovetogoback'herwholelifereally,untilsolateinthegamethatitwassafetosay
Well,Ithinkifitwaspossibletogoback,wemightgovisit,butwewouldn'tparticipate
atthispointinrebuildingCuba,orwhatever.
Mydadstartedtoschemingto,notnecessarilygobacktoCubaatthatpoint,buttogetus
backtoLatinAmerica.Atsomepointitdawnedonithimthatitwastakingalittlelonger
thanhepresumeditwould.Hedidn'twantustobeAmericans,hewantedustobeCuban,
hewantedtobeLatinAmericans,sohestartedschemingtosetupabusinessinthe
DominicanRepublic.Mymomwasabsolutelynotgameforthat,shewasnotinterested
ingoingtoacountrythatwasconsiderablylessdevelopedthanCubaandmuchpoorer
thanCuba,andwheretherewerealotofBlackpeople.Mymomisraciallymixed,orwas
raciallymixed,andoneofhersignatureimpulsesisalwaystofleefromallthingsBlack.
Nia:Whenyousaywasraciallymixed,isitpasttensebecauseshepassed?
Achy:Yes,bothmyparentsaredeceased.

Nia:OK,Iwaslike,Wastheresomepointwhereshestoppedbeing
Achy:Stoppedbeingraciallymixed?(Nialaughs)No,theybotharedeceased.I'mstill
adjustingtothetensewithmymombecauseherdeathisprettyrecent.Shediedin
January.
Anyway,shedidnotliketheideaofmovingtotheDominicanRepublicinthatallofher
hardworktoadvancetherace,i.e.marryingmygreeneyedJewishfather,wouldbe
undonebyourinevitablecouplingwithpeopledarkerthanusandher.Sothereisatthat
pointaU.S.governmentdepartmentcalledHousingEducationalWelfareandtheyhada
programtoresettleCubanrefugees.Theprogramwasdesignedtoaddresstwoproblems,
threeproblems,thatthegovernmentsaw.Onewasatremendousshortageofteachers.In
the'60stherewasagreatshortageofteachers.Thiswasbeforepeoplefiguredoutthatif
theywereteacherstheycouldavoidthedraft.Andtheotherthingwas,theyweretrying
tofigureoutwhattodowithalltheseCubanrefugeeswhowerecomingover,manyof
whowerequiteeducated.Lastly,theyweretryingtodisperserefugeesfromSouth
Florida,becauseCubanswerestartingtocongregateandconcentrateinSouthFlorida.
Thatwasanotherplanthatworkedoutreallywell,thedispersingofCubansfromSouth
Florida.(laughs)
Nia:Ithinkyou'rebeingsarcastic?Ican'ttellwhatyouexactlywhatyoumean.
Achy:Well,ImeantheideathattheywouldspreadCubansouttoallthesedifferent
placestogetthemtrainedasteachersintheUS,thiswastheplan.Andobviously,Imean
theyhadpeopleinWisconsin,theyhadaprograminWisconsin,oneinIndiana,Ithink
therewasoneinIowaaswell,Idon'trememberanymore.Therewerelike36families
thatendedupinTerreHaute,IN.Mymomsignedusupforthatprogrambehindmy
dad'sback.
Nia:Ohhhhh.
Achy:Sheforgedhissignatureontheapplication,Andhegotaccepted,nother.Imean,
shedidn'tapplyforherself,sheappliedforhim.Theyacceptedhim,andshewas
strugglingwithhowtotellhimshehaddonethis.(laughs)Whenhisbusinessforay,
whateveritwas,Idon'tknowwhatitwas,intheDominicanRepublicfellthrough,the
projecttomovetoIndianathenbecamethisWow,andhereIdidthisasabackstop!not
IdidthistotrumpyourDominicanRepublicfantasy.(bothlaughs)
WemovedtoIndianawheremydadproceededtohaveaprettyseriousnervous
breakdown.Wewerelivinginadorm,Ithinktherewas36otherCubanfamilies.We
wereallinthesamedorm,itwascalledtheMaryStewartdormatwhatwasthenIndiana
StateCollege,whatisnowIndianaStateUniversity.Iremembertheroomswere,
basicallytheyweredormrooms.MyparentshadaMurphybedthattheypulleddown,
andmybrotherandIsleptinthekitchenoncotsthatwouldbepulledoutatnight.Soit

wasbasicallyastudio,fourpeoplelivinginastudio.Wehadoneofthelarger
apartments,Iremember.Itwasattheendofthehall,thosewerealittlebiggerthansome
oftheotherones.Peoplewithmorethantwokidshadanapartmentinthecenterofthe
hall,whichwaslikeasuitebecauseitwasanactualonebedroom.Andwewerethere
whenmydadendedupgettinginternedinahospital
Nia:Forthebreakdown?
Achy:Forthebreakdown.InRockville,IN.Sotechnicallyhevacatedhisslotinthe
program.Buttheymovedmymomintoit.Mymomwasactuallyalwaysthebetter
candidatebecauseitwasaprogramtocreateteachers,andmymomhadbeenateacher,
andhadbeenasocialworker,butmymotherspentalifetimemakingsurethatmydad
was'theman.'Itwascrazyshitlike,theybothhaddoctorates.MydadwentbyDr.
Obejas.MymomwentbyMrs.Obejas.IfyouaskedherwhyshewouldsayOh,it
wouldbeconfusingtohavetwoDr.Obejases.Butitjustsortoflefthimasthedegreed
andtitledcharacter.Shewasn'tdeferential,butmadeitlooklikeshewasatleast
deferential.Itwassortoffunnybecausehewasn'tsomeonewhodemandedthat,soitwas
sortofaweirdcomboofthetwoofthem.Hereallydidn'thavethosekindsofhangups.
Andhewouldgooutofhiswaytosaythatshealsohadadegree,andshewoulddemure.
Itwasaveryweirddynamicthatthetwoofthemhadaroundthoseandmanyother
issues.
Sotheymovedmymomintothatslotandshedidgreat.Attheendoftheprogrampeople
weregettingjobsallovertheplace,butmymomonlyappliedinIndianabecauseonce
mydadgotoutofthehospitaltheyacceptedhimandaboutthreeotherpeoplethiswas
aoneyearprogrambutthereweretwoorthreeotherpeoplewhoforwhateverreason
endeduphavingtodefer,buttheyletthemsortofcompletetheprogramontheirown
time,andmymomdidn'twanttobefarfrommydad.SoweendedupinMichiganCity,
IN.ShehadotherjoboffersinIndiana,someevenclosertoTerreHaute,butshepicked
MichiganCitybecauseitwasonthelake.
LakeMichiganinMichiganCityislikeanocean,Imeanit'slikeanoceaninChicago
too,it'sjustamonstrousbodyofwater.It'sjustunbelievablypowerfulandalluringandit
remindedheroftheisland,andinMichiganCityinparticularbecause,unlikeChicago
whichisacity,sothelakefrontisallindustrializedoratleastmanicured,soitdoesn't
haveanysortofnaturalsensibilitytoit,MichiganCityisjustdune,afterdune,after
dune.Justtheseincredible,beautifulrollingdunes.Thefirstapartmentthatwehadin
MichiganCity,whenmydadwasnotlivingwithus,welivedonthebeach.Wehada
thirdfloorapartmentandfrommymom'sbedroomyoucouldseethewater.Therewasa
littlebalconyoutsidethelivingroomandeverymorning,nomatterhowdamncoldit
was,mymomwouldmakecoffeeandgooutonthebalconyandhaveaminutetoherself
beforeshefrozeherassoff(bothlaugh)andthenshe'drushbackin.Thatwasherritual.
Whenhecamebackfromthehospital,andwhenhe,whenhefinishedhistImeanwe
sawhim,youknowhevisitedandstuff.

Nia:Howlongwasheatthehospital?
Achy:Youknow,it'shardtoknow.Idon'tthinkitwasquiteayear,butitwasclose.I've
heardsixmonths,I'veheardeight.
Nia:Sothiswasnotaregularhospital,thiswasapsychiatricfacility?
Achy:Yeah,andweweren't,ofcourse,toldthat,weweretoldhewassick,butwe
weren'ttoldwhatitwas.Ididn'trealizewhatitwasuntilmanyyearslaterwhenIwentto
collegeandIwenttoalittletinyschoolcalledFranklinCollegeandmetsomebodyfrom
Rockville,IN,whichiswherethehospitalwas,andIsaidOh,mydadusedtobeinthat
hospital,andIusedtovisitRockvillealotandIrememberthisandthisandthisandshe
justlookedatmeandshesaidWow.I'veneverseenanybodysocasualabouthaving
somebodyinamentalhospital,andIwaslike,Whatareyoutalkingabout?Shewas
likeUhhhh.(bothlaugh)
Nia:Thatwasawkward.
Achy:Yeah.Shewashorriblyembarrassed.ShewaslikeI'msorrybutIdon'tknow
whatyourfamilytoldyouandmaybethereareotherkindsofinternmentsinthathospital
butit'samentalhospital.AndIwassureshewasoutofhermind,(Nialaughs)butIhad
acar,andsoIgotinmylittlecar,drovetoRockville,andsureenoughnotonlywasita
mentalhospital,butthereceptionistwasthesamewoman
Nia:Ohgod.
Achy:whohadbeentherewhenIwasakid.Irecognizedherimmediately,Ididn't
thinkshewouldrecognizemebecauseshehadn'tseenmesinceIwassevenoreight,but
theminuteIsaidmynamesherememberedme,andsherememberedmydad,she
rememberedmybrother.Itwasprettyemotionaltodiscoverthatthat'swhatitwas.
Myfamilydenieditactually,whenIwentbackandsaidHey,youguysweren'treally
upfrontwithus.WhichIgettotally,wewerelittlekids,wewouldn'thaveunderstood
whatitmeant.Andwewerestrugglingwithassimilationandtryingtofigureouthowto
fitin,inaworldthatwascompletelyalientous,andlearninganewlanguage,andwe
hadenoughonourplates.Igetit.
Itwasjustamazingtomethatthemythwasjustsohardtobreak,thatevenwhenwe
wereadultsitwasimpossibletogetthemtotellthetruth,thatmymomsaidNo,thatis
notwhatitwas.Shewasveryprotectiveofmydad'simage.Whatdidshesay?Hehad
testedpositivefortuberculosis,andtheyhadquarantinedhimforthatreason,butthatit
wasasillyquarantine,becausealotofpeopleinthetropicsdon'tactuallyhavethe
disease,buttestpositivebecauseyou'vebeenexposedtoit,whichofcourseistrue.It'sa
perfectlyreasonableexplanationofaconditionthatwasnotthecase.(bothlaugh)Sothat

wasarealinterestingmomentthere.
Butanyway,that'swhywewereinIndiana,andthat'swhywegrewupinIndiana.
Nia:IkindofwanttogobacktoyourmomandhermixednessalsoherantiBlackness
ifthat'sOK.Didyourmomidentifyasmixed?
Achy:No,absolutelynot.
Nia:Anddoyouidentifyasmixed,orasapersonofcolor?
Achy:Iidentifyasapersonofcolor,butit'shardformetopinpointwhatthemixed
mightbe.ImeanIdon'treallyknowthelevelofmixturewithmymom,sheneversaid.It
wasreallyhardtolookatmymomandnotrealizethatshewasmixed,Imeanshewas
lightskinnedbutherfeaturesdidnotcorrespondtowhatwenormallythinkofaswhite
people.Andshehadkinkyhair,whichsheworkedreally,reallyhardtokeepstraightat
alltimes.
Nia:ArewetalkingaboutherbeingmixedwithIndigenousormixedwithBlackorboth?
Achy:Ohno,mixedwithBlack.There'salmostnooneinCubawhohasanIndigenous
background.WhenpeopleinCubatalkaboutbeingmixed,it'susuallywithBlackpeople,
sometimeswithChinese,rarelywithAraborJewishpeople.Racially,that'sprettymuch
thegamut.
TheIndigenouspeopleinCubaprettymuchdisappearedpostconquest.Theydiedbythe
gazillionbecauseofdisease.AndthegreatCubanmythabouttheIndigenousisthatat
somepointtheyrealizedthattheycouldnotdefeattheSpaniards,thattheSpaniardshad
tools,weapons,andatthatpointsnumbers,thatwayoutweighedthemandtheywere
basicallydonefor;thattheirdestinywasbasicallytobeslaves,aconceptthattheydidn't
have,ortodie.Sotheychosetodie,andtheyhadamasssuicidebyeatingdirt.
Nia:That'sreferencedinDaysofAwe.
Achy:Right.TherewasareservationoutsideHavana,atowncalledGuanabacoa,but
thatwas100yearsago.AndsopresumablypeoplefromGuanabacoahavesome
Indigenousblood.WhenIwenttotheeasternsideoftheislandIrememberIcalleda
friendofmineinHavanaIsaid,Well,IfoundalltheIndiansthatyouguyssaiddon't
existbecausethere'saslewofincrediblydarkpeopleontheeasternsideoftheisland
withsuperstraighthair,andifyoudroppedthemintotheUS,ifyousawthem,you
wouldidentifythemastypicallynative.ButinCubatheyidentifyasBlack.Sowho
knowswhattheiractualmixis,buttheiridentityisBlack,sowhatareyougoingtodo?
I'mnotgoingtoarguewithsomebodyaboutwhattheythinktheyare.

Nia:Right.DoyoumeanBlackAfrican?SoBlackisatermthatgetsusedindifferent
ways
Achy:TheymeanBlackAfrican,theymeandescendedfromAfrica.
Nia:OK,that'ssuperinteresting.(laughs)
Achy:OrinsomemoreimmediatelycasesdescendedfromHaitianpeoplewhocome
over,butultimatelythelacuna,thebirthplaceisAfrica.Andthere'sacertainprestigeto
theAfricanconnectionincertainCubancircles,notinall.
Nia:Whenyousayprestige,youmeanitwouldbepreferabletobeidentifiedasAfrican
thanasIndigenous?
Achy:Oh,absolutelyoverIndigenous,becausefirstofallthere'snoIndigenousidentity.
ButIthinkalsotheIndigenousontheislands,andparticularlyinCuba,weren'tvery
advancedcomparedtotheIndigenousonthecontinent.TheAztecandtheMayanswere
buildingspaceshipspractically.Theyhadadvancedmathematicalsystems,they
understoodarchitecture,astronomy.Theyhadvery,veryadvancedsystemsforirrigation.
Imeantherewasareallysophisticatedcivilizationonthecontinent,andthenwhenyou
godowntoSouthAmerica,dittowiththeIncas.
TheIndigenousinCuba,andonmostoftheislands,werenowherenearthat.Theyhad
veryrudimentarytools,theirpotterywasextremelysimple.TheCubanargument,the
popularCubanexplanationforwhythisisso,isthattheterrainonthecontinentisvery
roughandifyoulivedhereyouhadtofigurestuffout,whereastheIndigenousinCuba
werebasicallylivinginsomesortofEden,anddidn'treallyhavetoworkveryhardat
architecturebecausethingsgrewprettyeasily,anddidn'treallyhavetoworkatanimal
husbandrybecausethefishingwassoincredibleandsoeasy.Theydidn'tevenhavetogo
veryfar,theydidn'thavetocreateverysophisticatedvesselstogetplentyoffishtoeat.
I'mnotsayinganyofthisistrueornot,I'msayingthisisthesortofpopularexplanation
forwhythisis.Theonethingthat'sattributedasaninventiontotheTainos,theIndians,
andtheCiboneysthatwereinCubaisthehammock,whichCubansalwayslovetopoint
outtopeople,andit'salwayslike,Imagnate!Lahamaca!Youcanimaginetheirlife,if
theirgreatestinventionisthehammock!Justimaginewhatthatmeans.Theywere
layingaroundalldaylong,rollingtobaccowhichisalsoIndigenoustoCuba,tobacco
andsmokingthesebeautifulcigars,hangingout.(laughs)NowondertheSpaniards
couldn'tdomuchforthemintermsofslavery,they'dneverworkedadaysintheirlives!
TheCubanshadsortofturnedtheNativeislanderslackofsophisticationbymodern
standardsintoaplus.
Theydidn'twanttoworkbecausetheyneverhadtowork.Imeanthetruthisthevast
majorityofIndigenousontheisland,andonthecontinent,diedbecauseofdiseasesthat

theyhadneverencounteredbefore.Imean,theSpaniardsbasicallywerelikeavirus
buffet.
Nia:IguessoneofthethingsthatI'mreallyinterestedinishowraceisconstructed
differentlyintheUSversusothercountries,andthenalsohowracismoperatesdifferently
intheUSversusothercounties.I'mrealizingthere'ssomuchthatIdon'tknowaboutthe
waythatraceisconstructedinLatinAmerica.SoIhadnoideathatthere'snotan
IndigenousidentityinCubaatall,andI'mstillhaveahardtime(laughs)wrappingmy
mindaroundthat.
Achy:Certainly,objectivelywhenIwenttotheEasternsideoftheislandIwas
astoundedthatpeopledidn'tidentifythatway,buttheydidn't.Anditwasreallyclear,
whenIsuggestedit,itwasconsideredcrazy.Andthat'sobviouslynottrueonthe
continentwheretherearetheselargeIndigenouspopulations.Imeaneverybodyonthe
continenthasamuchgreaterappreciationoftheirlocalIndigenousthanpeopleinthe
Caribbean.It'scuriousthoughbecauseinPuertoRicothereisasenseoftheirTaino
culture,andfrequentlywhenyoutalktopeoplewhoworkincultureinPuertoRicoin
particularyouhearpeopletalkaboutthethreestrandsthatmakePuertoRico,the
European,theAfricanandtheIndigenous.NooneevertalksabouttheIndigenousin
Cuba.Really,ifyounamedathirdgroupinCuba,Iwouldputmoneythattheywouldsay
theChinese.
Nia:That'ssuperinteresting.So,then,CubansgenerallyconsiderthemselvesWhite
and/orBlack,and/orChinese?(laughs)
Achy:No,White,Black,ormixed.
Nia:OK.
Achy:Peopleofmyparent'sgenerationgravitatedtowardWhitenessinamuchmore
pronouncedway.
Nia:IwasreallyhopingtofinishDaysofAwebeforeIcame.IguessIhave100pages
left
Achy:That'sallright.
Nia:ThefatheroftheprotagonistisveryIthinkhekindoffetishizesSpainand
everythingSpanish.
Achy:Becausepeopleofhisgenerationdid.Imeanhe'slooselybasedonmydad,but
notreallybecausemydadwasn'tthatdarkorsomber.Andmydadwasalcoholic,andmy
dadwasviolent,whichEnriquewasnot.ButthenotionoftheSpanishfetishcamealittle
bitfrommydad,notbecausemydadhaditasbadlyasIwroteEnriquebutbecauseit

wasthere,Imean,Ican'teventellhowmanytimesmydadsaid,we'redescendedfrom
Spain,wecan'tbepeopleofcolor,andmymomwouldbesittingatthetableandwe'd
belookingathergoingOhhh,OK?
Nia:Howdidshefeelaboutit?
Achy:Shesignedon,shesignedonprettybadly.Imean,Idon'tthinkitwassomething
heconvincedherof,Ithinkitwassomethingsheaspiredtoonherown.
Nia:SohowdidyoucometoaPOCidentitywhenyourparentswereinsuchdenial
abouttheirs?
Achy:Well,Idon'tknowthatmydadwasallthatmixedtoperfectlyhonest.Imeanhis
grandfathercamefromSpain.HisCubanancestryallcamewithinaverysecretive
cryptoJewishcommunity
Nia:YouusethewordcryptoJewishalotinDaysofAwe.Whatdoesitmean
exactly?
Achy:ItmeanssecretlyJewish.Andsohowmixedthatmightbegiventheexclusivityof
theirinteractionsformarriageandreproductionIdon'tknow,Imeanit'shardtotell,
really.Youknow,mygrandmotheronmydad'ssidelooks...prettydark...butitdoesn't
Nia:IfeellikeyouwantedtosayBlack,butthendidn't?
Achy:No,no,no.Shelooksprettydark,butwhatIwasgoingtosay,she'sprobably
Sephardic.WeknowshewasSephardic,butmypointisherdarknessprobablycomes
fromaSephardicheritageasopposedtoanAfricanheritage.Soit'shardtotell,youlook
atthosephotosandyougo,Ehhh,it'shardtoknowwiththeseguys,mydad'sside's
verytough,hardtotell.Withmymom'ssideit'salsohardtofigurethingsoutbecausemy
mom'sfamilywasinCubamuchlongerthanmydad,butthat'salsowhythelikelihoodof
mixtureismuchgreater.
Mymomisalsosomeonewhoistheprobablydarkestinherfamily,themostobviously
notwhitepersoninherfamily.Hersisterlookswhite.It'sfunnybecausemydad's80th
birthday,theparty,mybrothersaidsomethingaboutweshouldhonorallofourrelatives
includingourBlackancestryandmyaunt,mymom'ssistersays,Ah,theirsofarback,I
don'tthinktheycountanymore.WhichmybrotherandIwerejustamazedby,because
inaperverseway,itwasthefirstacknowledgmentthatwe'dactuallyhadofficially,not
thatweneededit,butitwasthefirstacknowledgementthatinfact,ohyes,wedohave
Blackrelatives,thankyou.(laughs)
Nia:That'ssodeep.(laughs)
Achy:Itwaslike,great.Itwasreally,itamusedmybrotherandI,wewerehighfiving.It

wasontherecord!(laughs)
Nia:Thatssointensethough,togrowupwiththisunderstandingwithyourbrotherthat
youwerepartBlackbuttonothaveyourparentsacknowledgeitonanyleveluntilfar
untilyour
Achy:It'sweirdbecausetheydidn'tacknowledgeitasaracialthingbutthey
acknowledgeditculturally,indirectly,allthetime.That'swasthethingthatwasalways
soperverse.Becauseweweren'twhiteAmerican.Thiswasthethingthatwasso
interestingtome,whenthecensuscamearound,mymothernevermarkedwhite.
Nia:Whatdidshemark?
Achy:Other.
Nia:OK.
Achy:AndthenshewouldwriteinCaucasian,Cubanorigin.
Nia:Thiswasevenaftertheyaddedthe,wasitlike...
Achy:WhentheyaddedHispanic?
Nia:Yeah.
Achy:Whichwasbackinthelate70s.
Nia:ButthenthereslikeHispanic(white)andHispanic(Nonwhite).
Achy:Wellthat'srecent,that'sveryrecent.
Nia:OK.
Achy:AtonepointHispanicwasit'sownracialcategoryandmymotherwouldstill
markOtherCaucasian,Cubanoriginandmydadwouldalwaysmarkedotherno
explanation.(bothlaugh)
Nia:Interesting.
Achy:Eventhoughtheywereconstantlypubliclyprotestingtheirwhitenessandasserting
it,onsomeleveltheyunderstoodthatwhateverwhitemeantinthiscountry,theyweren't
white.ThetruthofthematteristhatinCubatheywerewhite.Imean,ithappenstome.
WhenItraveltoCuba,inCuba,Iamwhite,buthere,I'mnotwhite.EvenifIactually

claimedtobewhite,itwouldbetoughtopulloffbecausethedefinitionofwhitenesshere
hasnotfrequentlyincludedLatinos,andmyLatinonesssortofalwaysmarginalizesme
inthis.IamlightskinnedandIpass.Nobodyfollowsmearoundinthe711.
Nia:That'ssomethingthatyourcharacterinDaysofAwetalksabout.
Achy:Right.It'sarealtest.Mybrothergetsfollowedaroundina711ifheletshishair
grow.Idon'tthinknowthathe'sanoldermanwithvery,veryshorthairthatwould
happentohim,becausehe'salsoprettylightskinned,butwhenhewasyoungerhehad
thisgiganticafro,andhisfacialfeatures,dependingonwhathe'swearing,whereheis,
andthegroupthat'shatedinthemoment,mybrothercanfallintoanyofthosecategories.
AftertheseizureoftheAmericanEmbassyinTehranin1979,everybodyinLAthought
mybrotherwasPersian.WhenhelivedinIsrael,everybodythoughtmybrotherwas
Israeli
Nia:WhatkindofIsraeli?LikewhiteIsraeli?
Achy:Yeah,andinMichiganCitywhenhewasalifeguardandgotreally,reallydark,
peoplethoughthewasBlack.Youknow,lightskinnedBlack,butBlack.Sohe'san
interestingsortofracialcharacterbecauseIdon'thavethatchameleonqualitythathehas.
Ithinkmoreformethanmybrother,curiouslyenough,theidentificationaspersonof
colorwasaveryslowprocess,Ithink.IrememberaftertheassassinationofMartin
LutherKinginmythirdorfourthgradeclass,theybroughtincounselors,theywere
doingthisalloverAmerica,becausethishadbeenabiguglything,andtheydivviedthe
roomup,andtheyhadthewhitekidsinonecircleandtheBlackkidsinanothercircle
andtherewasaLebanesegirlandIwhodidn'tfitintoeithercircle,accordingtothe
teacher'sdefinition,soweknewwewereflawedinsomeway.Ifwedwantedtopasswe
couldn'thave.AndIrememberwestartedourownlittlecircle.Butyouknow,stufflike
thathappenedallthetime,wewerealwaysbeingremindedthatweweren'tpartofthe
mainstream.
EventhoughinMichiganCitywehadaverycloserelationshipwiththeJewish
Community,andinthatcommunitytherewereparentswhoatleastonthesurface
seemedverysimilartomyparents,parentswhocamefromdifferentcountries,parents
withaccents,parentswhohadhadadifferentgrowingupexperience.
Nia:WeretheymostlyAshkenazi?
Achy:TheywereoverwhelminglyAshkenazi.Butnonetheless,walkingintoahome
who'sparentshadanaccentwasmuchmorefamiliarthanwalkingintoahomewho's
parentshadasouthernaccentwhichwasalotoftheotherstuffyougotinMichiganCity
causealotofthewhitesinMichiganCityinthe60shadcomeupforjobsinthemills
fromthesouth.EventhoughIndianaisnotaSouthernstate,itisculturallyverySouthern,

andinthatparticularperiodoftimebecausejobsweresoabundantinthemills,people
cameupfromotherpoorerpartsofthecountry,andthesouthwasaplacewhere,you
know,itwasverypoor.So,myneighborsacrossthestreetfromthebeachhouse,thefirst
placewelivedinMichiganCity,werefromTexas,andtheyhadabigolConfederate
flagupinthelivingroom
Nia:AndsoyoufeltmorecomfortablewiththeAshkenaziJews?(laughs)
Achy:Sure,butIdidn'tunderstandthesymbolismoftheConfederateflagatall,andin
factneitherdidmymom.InfactweplayedwiththeMarshallsthatwasthenameofthe
familyweplayedwiththeMarshallkidsallthetimeandwewereoverthereallthetime
andwelovedthem.Wethoughttheyweregreat.Andtheyplayedwithus.Itwasthefirst
timeIheardtheword'spic'becauseoneofherunclesusedittodescribeusandIheard
him,andIhadnoideawhatitmeant.Itwasn'tuntilmydadcameupforavisit,andmy
dadsawtheConfederateflag,andheknewwhatitmeant.Hewaslike,Uhh,wewantto
becarefulwiththosefolksandsortoflaiditoutformymom.Suddenlywehad
restrictionsaboutgoingovertotheMarshalls',likewecouldplaywiththeMarshallkids
andtheycouldcomeover,buttheMarshallsneverwatchedusagain.
Nia:Oh,Isee.
Achy:Itwasabsolutelydiscouraged.Ifwesaidohwe'regoingtogooverandplayat
theMarshalls'mymomsaidOh,havethemcomeover,I'llmakeblahblah.Anything
sothatwewouldnotbethere.
Nia:Shedidn'twantyoutobesolelyovertheMarshalls'supervision.
Achy:Right,andittotallycamefrommydad.Mydadmissedalotofstuffculturallybut
healsogotalotofstuff.Initiallymydadwasmuchmoretheculturalarbiter.Astime
wentonmymombecameamuchsharperobserverandhadamuchbettersensethanmy
daddid,anditwasinterestingtowatchthatswitch,too.Becausemydadendedup
workinginaveryplacidlittletown,notMichiganCity,alittletowncalledChesterton,
closetous,andIdon'tthinkhehadthekindofexposuretobroaderAmericanculturethat
mymomdid.
MichiganCityhasaBlackpopulation,MichiganCityhasamuchgreaterincome
equality,andalwaysdid,andhadaMexicanpopulationthatmydaddidn'thavein
Chesterton.Soshewasmuchmoreintegratedandsociallysortofinvolvedthanhewas.
Andshewasverymuchinvolvedinherunion,whichmydadwasnot,mydadwas
actuallykindofwary,andIthinkhadhebeenmarriedtosomebodyelsehemighthave
beenantiunion,butmymomwasaverystrongunionsupporterandvery,veryactive.
AndinfactwhenItookajobwiththeChicagoBoardofEducationmany,many,many
yearslater,andtherewasateacher'sstrike,andIcrossedthepicketline,mymomwas
reallyupset.Notmad,butjusthorriblydisappointedandreallyspirituallykindofcrushed

byit.
Nia:Whydidyoucrossthepicketline?
Achy:WhydidIcrossthepicketline?Itwasanewjob.Iwasveryyoung.And,I'dbeen
onthejob,Ikidyounot,48hours.
Nia:Beforethestrikestarted?
Achy:Whenthepersonwhohiredmegotfiredandthestrikestarted.Thewholething
waschaos.Andtherewasanew,forthefirsttimeever,Latinopresidentoftheboardof
education,andeveryonewassayingthisisaboutdestroyinghim,thisisaboutnotgiving
himachancetodotherightthing,and
Nia:That'sthatwhatthestrikewasabout?
Achy:Thestrikewasaboutalotofthings.
Nia:Butthat'swhattheyweresayingthestrikewasabout?
Achy:Thatwasoneofthereasonswhy.
Nia:OK.
Achy:Basicallywhenthisallfailsit'sgoingtobeonGeorgeMuoz.Hewasfairlynew
totheboard,too.AndonethingsthathappenedwasthatalotoftheLatinosonthe
administrationsortofcongealedaroundGeorgeandmakingsurethatitdidn'tgetputon
thespic,youknow.Thatwasmostlywhy,Ihadsortofbecomefriendlywithhim,andhe
hadimmediatelysortofshonealightonmeandIworkedwithhimverycloselyforafew
years.Inretrospect,IprobablyshouldhavejustwalkedawayandkeptdoingwhatIwas
doing,but
Nia:Whichwas?
Achy:Iwasfreelancing,whichwasaveryprecariousexistence.
Nia:Stillis.(bothlaugh)
Achy:Yeah,probablymoreprecariousnowactually,Ithink,thanbackthen.Andyou
know,Icrossedthepicketline.Wetalkedaboutit,ItalkedtoherbeforeIdidit.AndI
toldher,IsaidIfyouabsolutelydonotwantmetodoityoushouldtellme,andshe
said,Wellyouhavetomakethesedecisionsyourself.Shesaid,Youknowexactly
howIfeel,thereisnoambiguitytohowIfeel.AndIthoughtaboutitandIdidit,andit

was,itwashard,itwasn'tarealsimplething.Iwouldcrossthelineandgotomyoffice
andsobforthenexthour,Iwaskindofworthless
Nia:Soyouwerenotateacher,andyouwerenotpartoftheteachers
Achy:Ohno.IwasapresspersonfortheBoardofEd.
Nia:Oh,OK.
Achy:Ohno,ifIwasateacherIwouldhavebeenstriking.
Nia:Right.
Achy:Withoutanyquestion.Iwasnotamemberoftheunionatall.Therewasnounion
forme,andmypeoplewerenotonstrike.Mymom'spreferencewouldhavebeenthatI
notcrossthatline.No.Mygod,ifIhadbeenateacherandcrossedthatlineIthinkmy
mothermighthavedisownedme.(Bothlaugh)That'sawholedifferentballgame,whole
differentballgamethere.
ButChicago'salsoacitythat'sverycorrupt,soit'sthekindofsmallgrassrootscorruption
thatisactuallykindofalmostcomical,butcanalsomeanincrediblebigbucks.Therewas
abigmovementintheLatinocommunityforcharters,chartersrunbutLatino
community,organizationsblahblahblah.OneofthemostpowerfulLatinoorganizations
inthecity,UNO,managedtogetliterallymillionsofdollars,like200millionsofdollars
tostartdoingtheirowncharterschools.ItturnsoutlaterthatthepresidentofUNOis
Rahm'sbestbuddyinthewholeworld.Turnsoutlaterthattheywerechannelingmillions
ofdollarstocompaniesrunbytheirrelatives,theentireextendedfamiliesofallthese
peopleweregettingrichofthisthing.
Nia:Likebuildingcontracts?
Achy:Buildingcontractsandconcessions,andallkindsofthingsweregoingfamily
members,thewholethingwasjustadisaster.Andsuretheguyresignedfromhis
position,butmostofthosecontractsremainedintact,andnothingwasdonetochangethe
system.Youknow,thisguygotcaught,hedidn'tgotojail,helosthisjob,bigdeal.(Nia
laughs.)Andeverythingremainedthesame.Theyputin,supposedly,newcriteriafor
doingthis,butthecontractsthatwereinplaceremainedinplace.Soeverybodygotpaid,
atleastthatyear,andI'msuretheyfiguredoutanotherwaytocomearoundthis.Thisis
oneofthereasonswhynothingevermovesforward.It'saverycorrupt,atthesortof
innardslevel,city.
Nia:Sodepressing.(laughs)Imeanwhatareyousupposedtodowiththat?Howdoyou
begintofixitwhenitrunssodeep?

Achy:Youknowwhat,it'sbeenreallyinterestingtobeherebecause
Nia:ThatwastheotherthingIwantedtoaskyou.DoyoustillhaveaplaceinChicago?
Achy:WestillhaveaplaceinChicago
Nia:Soyoustillconsideryourselftolivethere
Achy:No,welivehere.We'veactuallyputourplaceupforsale.Itwasaheartbreaking
decision.
Nia:Soyou'velivedinChicagoforalongtime?
Achy:I'velivedinChicagosince1979.I'velivedinChicagomyentireadultlife.Oneof
thethingsaboutmovingtoOaklandwassortofrealizingthatIwillneverknowOakland
thewayIknowChicago.ImaywellendupdyinginOaklandandwillneverlove
OaklandasdeeplyasIloveChicago.Chicagojusthassomanyimportantmomentsinmy
life,crucialmoments,momentswhereIgrewup,learnedthings,definingmoments.I'm
59,sotherearentthatmanydefiningmomentsleft.(Bothlaugh.)Butmoreover,I'mnot
goingtospend30yearsinOakland.It'sunlikelythatI'mgoingtospend30yearsin
Oakland,andifIspendthemI'mnotgoingtospendthemthewayIdidinChicagoinmy
lateteensandearlytwenties.Imean,IknoweveryfuckingcornerofChicago,andthat's
nevergoingtohappeninOakland,nomatterhowcommittedIamtogettingtoknowthe
city.Itjustwasadifferentkindofplace.
ButoneofthethingsthataboutbeinghereisyourealizewhatChicagolookslikefrom
theoutside,andyourealizewhatyou'vecontributedtothesystemwhenyou'reinsideby
sortofsurrenderingtothecultureofcorruption,becauseabsolutelypoliticallyradical
peopleinChicagowillsaythingstoyoulikeWell,whatcanyoudo?orThat'sjustthe
wayitis,orThey'reabsolutelyunbreakable,andyou'reareporterandbreakingany
kindofstoryaboutcorruptionisanuphillbattleamongotherthingsbecausewhoever
youreditoris,isgoingtohavequalmsaboutit.Andwhoevertheeditorisabovethatis
goingtohavequalmsaboutit.
Nia:Becausethey'reworriedaboutlosingtheirjobs?
Achy:Everybodyisworriedabout...Andalsoyouloseperspective,it'slike,Howbig?
Comeon,that'snotthatbigofadeal,andthenyourealizeeverfuckingotherplacein
theworlditisabigdeal,whateverthatlittlecorruptionwas.Yougetusedtothe
corruptionbeingsooverwhelmingthatyouforget
Nia:It'sjustbecomesthenorm.

Achy:Itjustbecomesthenorm,it'slikewhatever,youknow?(Bothlaugh.)
Nia:It'ssodeepandsodepressing.Whatiseventhepointofjournalismatthepoint?
Achy:Right,andyoujustreallyloseperspectiveon.Iremembersittinginateditorial
meetingsattheTribuneandwewouldtalkaboutstoriesandwewouldtalkourselvesout
ofitbecauseitseemedpettyoritseemedsilly.
Nia:Couldyougiveanexample?
Achy:Well,here'sastorythatIproposedazilliontimesthatIcouldnevergetoffthe
ground.Iwascoveringthearts,soIhadtosortoffocusthingsonthatway.Oneofthe
thingsIrealizedveryearlyonwasthatallofthemajorculturalinstitutionsinChicago
theArtInstitute,theMuseumofScienceandIndustry,allthemajorthings,theIllinois
ArtsCouncil,blahblahblahalloftheboardsweretheexactlythesamepeople
goddamnpeople.
Nia:Like,notjustthesamefamily,but
Achy:Oh,itwasabsolutelythesamefamilies.Likethere'saPritzkeroneveryboardin
Chicago.That'saguarantee,OK.Butitwasalmostcomical,likeespeciallywhenitcame
timetodiversifytheboard,there'slikethesameBlackguyonlike17differentboards,
andthesameAsianAmericanwomanon17differentboards.Andatonepointitstarted
tohappentome,thatIbecameasortofhighprofileLatina,andIwasbeinginvitedto
everything,whichisactuallywhatdrewmyattentiontothestory.Iwasbeinginvitedto
beontheChicagoFoundationforWomenboardandonthethisboard,andonthethat
board,anditwasliketherehavegottobeotherpeople.Surelytheyhavegottoknow
otherpeople.ThereareamillionLatino'sinChicago,literallyamillionfuckingLatinos.I
rememberexplainingintheartsandfeatureseditorialsession,howthisisnotahealthy
thing.(Bothlaugh.)
Nia:Seemsprettystraightforward.
Achy:Howitinhibitedinnovationandblahblahblahblahblah,andjuststartingatthe
blankfaces,andIwouldgetargumentslike,Whoelsewoulddoit?Itwasjusta
fascinatedresistancetoit.Wenevergotitofftheground.Iactuallytookthestorytoa
friendofmywhoistheeditorofStreetWise,thehomelessnewspaper,andtheydidthe
story.AndofcoursetheydiditverydifferentlythantheTribunewouldhavedoneit
becausetheTribunehadresourcesthatpoorlittleStreetWisedidn'thave.Andofcourseit
hadacertainresponsefromthecommunitiesofcolor,andofalmostzeroresponsewithin
thecommunitythatitwasactuallyaddressingbecauseitwasStreetWise,thehomeless
newspaper.ProbablytheguysontheboardattheMuseumofScienceandIndustrydidn't
evenknowwhatitwas.Soyouknow,itwasthatkindoffrustration.

Butthatexplainedthefactthattheseboardswerethesesamepeopleandoverwhelmingly
whiteandoverwhelminglymonied,explainedwhytherewerenoBlackcurators
anywhere.Itexplainedwhytherewerenopeopleofcolorinanypositionofauthority
exceptforthegoddamnedMexicanAmericanmuseum,anditexplainedwhy,againwith
theexceptionoftheMexicanAmericanmuseumandtosomeextentDuSableMuseum
thosetwoexistedoutsideoftheorbitofthingsbecausetheyhadspecificfocusasBlack
andLatinoartstheyexplainedwhyshowsweresoremovedfromthecommunitythat
theywerein,whythesatelliteprojectsthroughallthesethingsonlyappealedtopeople
wholiveddowntownandonalongthecoastofthelake.Thesethingswerereallyquite
evidentinhowthesemuseumsthatwerelivingonalotoftaxbreaksandmanyofthem
onfreeparkdistrictland,andhadamandatetoservetheentirecity,infactwerenot.
But,whocares?
Nia:Youreditorwaslike,there'snostoryhere'?
Achy:Therewasnostorythere.Andthenthecriticismwaslike,notunderstood.Itwas
justlike,Well,whatdoyouexpect?Thisiswhositsonboards.(laughter)
Nia:Isthiswhyyoudon'tdojournalismanymore?
Achy:Itwasareallydepressingsituation.
Nia:Butseriouslythough,isthatwhyyourfocusismoreoncreativewritingnow?What
inspiredyourtransitionfromjournalismtocreativewriting?
Achy:Mycareerinjournalismwasalwaysmeanttobeshort,itwasneveraboutstaying
there.Iwasinterestedinjournalismasawaytomakeamakealivingfromwriting,butI
wantedtowrite,andIneededtolearnhowtodootherkindsofwriting.IknewthatI
wantedtowrite.
I'vealwayswrittenpoetry,andI'vealwaysalsounderstoodthatIcouldn'tliveoffpoetry.
Ididn'treallyseemyselfasawriteroffictionuntilIwasanadult,eventhoughIwrote
fiction,itwasverylittle,andsofeelingveryinclinedtowardspoetryassortofthesole
thingIdid,understandingthatIcouldn'tpossiblymakealivingoffofthat,beingvery
engagedwithmysurroundingsandalways,havingawaywithwords,Iguess,itseemed
likeawaytomakealiving.AndthenasanadultwhenIrealized,noIactuallylike
longerform,Iactuallylikeprose,Iactuallylikefiction,Ineedtofigureouthowtodo
this.Thatis,IneedtofigureouthowtomakeapracticeinwhichIcandothis,inwhichI
canactuallymakealivingoffthis,ormakealivingrelatedtothis.Eventuallyjournalism
becamediminishedasIgotbetteratdoingtheotherone.
Ilikedjournalisminmytime.Ilovedit.Iwasoneofthosepeoplewhowould,beforethe
adventoftheinternet,whenIhadabigstorycomingoutIwouldliterallysleepatmy
deskandwaitforthefirstprintoff,andIwouldsmellthenewsprint,Ilovedthatstuff.I
lovedseeingabyline,andIlovedgettingreaderreaction,goodandbad.

Nia:Thisisbeforecommentssections.(laughs)
Achy:Right,thisisclearlybeforecomments,alllongbeforethisisbackwhenitwas
print.Thatwasallbeautifultome.Ilovedthefeelingthatyouhadamissionanda
purpose,andthatyoucouldmakeadifference.Whetherthatdifferencewaswritinga
reviewthatsavedawonderfulproductionthatnobodywasseeingandsuddenly
everybodywasseeingbecauseyouwrotesomethingtoelevatethem,orwritingastory
aboutsomepoliticalhackwhowasnotworthelecting.Allofitfeltveryengagedand
importantandlikeacontributionwasbeingmade.ButIspentalotofenergyandIhada
lotofsuccess,butIalsohadalotofheartbreakandjournalismbegantochangeinways
thatwerelessinterestingtome.
Iactuallythoughttheadventoftheinternetwasgoingtobereallyinterestingandgood
forthenews,andInolongerthinkthat.I'mnotsittingherewishingforthegoodold
days,becausethere'splentywrongwiththegoodolddays,andIthinkitiswhatitis,and
theinternetisamagnificentthinginsomanyways,andIamtotallycommittedand
addictedtoitsoI'mnotgoingtosithereandbeahypocriteaboutit.ButIthinkbetween
the24hournewsdayandtheinternet,Ithinknewshasbeenarealcasualty,andtheway
peopleconsumenewshasbeenreallyperverted,there'sbeennoreflectionthewaywhen
youusedtogetnewsonce,twice,threetimesaday.Imeanthestorydidn'tgetupdated
muchmorethanthat.Ifsomethingwasreally,reallyhot,thenewspaperusedtoputouta
specialeditionat4:00orsomethinglikethat.Weusedtocallittheredstreak,andit
wouldcomeoutat4:00anditdidn'tgotoanyone'shouses,itwasjustthosenewsboys
outonthestreet,andthatwaskindofcool.Youalwayshadthesenseofimmediacy
becauseyouwereinit,youwererunningaround,therewasagroup,therewastheteam
ofpeople.
Journalismnowseemssosolitarytome.Somanyblogs,andsomanypeopleworking
fromhome.AndbelievemeIamnotinanyway,shapeorformdamningthatbecauseI
amoneofthoseculpritswhoreallystartedthatworkingfromhomething.Iwasoneof
thefirstpeopletheTribuneletworkfromhome.Ibeggedandpleadedanddraggedthem
intolettingmeworkfromhome.Ididn'twanttocomeintotheoffice9timesoutof10,
andtheyaccommodatedme,soI'mpartoftheprecedentsettingdisaster.ButIdothink
there'ssomethingaboutagroupofpeoplewhoseeeachothereveryday,orseeeach
otherwithsomefrequency,anddebateandtalkaboutthenewsinperson,facetoface,
andthatsortofstuffismissing.There'sjustsoveryfewplacesthatdoinvestigations
now,andveryfewplacesthatdoanykindofrobustlocalcoveragebecausenewspapers
arejustreallydiminished.
Imean,theOaklandTribuneinmytime,whenIwasinhighschoolandcollege,usedto
beapremiernewspaperinthiscountry.IrememberbeingatIndianaUniversity,and
thinking,Man,IwouldlovetoworkattheOaklandTribune.Ididn'tevendreamofthe
ChicagoTribune,thatwasbeyondanypossibledream,thatwaswhatIwouldeventually

growinto.ButtheOaklandTribune,thatwasaccessible.Itwasamidsizepaper,you
couldaspiretoit.Anditwasagreatnewspaper,itdidinvestigation,ithadamazing
politicalcolumns,ithadaprettyvigorousartscoverage,anditwasinacitythatwasfull
ofstuffthatwashappening.
NowyoulookattheOaklandTribune,andnowit'sjustasadlittle8sheet,10sheet
thing.EverytimesomeonehandsmetheTribuneataPridethingwherethey'realways
givingitawayandtrytogetyoutosubscribe,itmakesmewanttocry,youknow,
becauseit'sjustsosmall.IfindthatIdon'treadthatmuchlocalnewsanymore.Partofit
isI'mnotengagedinjournalism,andpartofitisbecauseIverydeliberatelytrytopull
myselfawayfromthehabitofreadingthree,four,fivenewspapersadaywhichiswhatI
usedtodowhenIwasinvolvedinjournalism,becausethatconsumesphenomenal
amountsoftime.
Nia:Alsoemotionalenergy.(laughs)
Achy:Andalsoemotionalenergy.ButyouknowthethingisI'vegotathree,almostfour
yearold,andI'vegotafamily,andIwouldprefertoreadtheElenaFerrantenovel,andI
wouldliketowrite,andIwouldliketotakeawalkinthisbeautifulweather.I'malsoina
differentplaceinmylife.I'mnotkillingmyselftoreadthelatestrecordreviews.I
rememberatimewhenIwouldbepantingatmymailboxwaitingforthenextissueof
TheAdvocate,andIdon'tdothatanymore.Idon'tcareabouttheAdvocateanymore.
Nia:TheAdvocatehasprobablychangedalotsincethen.
Achy:Yeah,butyouknow,anythingthatwasqueer.LesbianConnection,whatever.I
justdon'tcarethatmuch.Myemotionalworldismoreintimatenow.IlikeEllen
DeGeneres,butIreallydon'tneedtoknowthatshe'sdismissingdivorcerumorsagain.
It'sjustnotmything.
TranscribedbyJoyceHatton