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CIA Files

Stanislav Lunev – Defector reveals Russia’s secret war plans
Interview with Barry Farber fragment: B: New kinds of weapons seem to be coming out of Russia, here is a new one on me, maybe a lot of other people, what is a seismic weapon and was is the Russian government doing to produce them? L: This is actually artificial earthquake, which could be generated by special devices, which increase natural seismic waves, which are under our (Earth’s) surface and explode like natural earthquake with all following circumstances. Its actually, this weapon development was in place for about more than 20 years and in the mid of 80s there have been several fields tests of this weapons and maybe you heard this Armenian city Spitak was totally destroyed. B: Good lord, dont tell me that was a Soviet test? L: It was an accidental explosion. B: That was an artificialy induced earthquake? L: It was accidental explosion of earthquake which was generated by the test of seismic weapons. B: What about Russians production of chemical and biological weapons? L: If i understand rightly, they continue this production, but most important that they accelerated research and development for the creation of new type of biological and chemical weapons and not only this weapons steps because they are working very hard for low frequency radio waves weapons, for laser weapons and for other types of future weapons systems. full text: BF: I‘m Barry Farber...When you ask somebody when he was in the service, he says 1941, you say oh, oh, he was at war, if he says, I was in in 1946, then you know he was enjoying occupation duty in some place like Germany or Japan, England or Okinawa, when somebody says, he was in the service in the 1960s early 70s, you say oh, oh, he was in Vietnam, but by mid-70s he was in the peace time army. When you ask a russian spy, when he defected, and he says 1992, you figure, oh well the cold war was over. Not so fast, not so fast. This can only be radio, this can‘t be television, because there is a price on Stan Lunevs head. Stan Lunev, colonel in the russian intelligence setup, defected after the cold war was allegedly over. Colonel Lunev, welcome to these procedings, we cannot show your face, but we can certainly hear

your voice and your message. When you defect, a top russian agent, you were debriefed by the CIA, all listeners right now, it is as though you are sitting in a CIA briefing because you will hear exactly what the CIA and other American intelligence agencies have heared from col. Stan Lunev. First of all again, welcome to America. SL: Thank you B: I would have said welcome to the free world, but we thought Russia was free in 1992. L: Thank you, Barry, but you know to operate information which we have from liberal American press, its not totaly correct, because cold war, we need to undersatnd what is it, it was confrontation between two great military powers and fortunately this confrontation does not exist in the same form, which it existed for about 40 years, but look around instead of friendly Russia or somekind of mystical partner China, just now America is facing to strategic military alliance between so called democratic Russia and totalitarian China, with tens of thousands of Russian nuclear war heards and actually unlimited numbers of Chinese ground forces, this alliance is much more dangerous than it has been in time of you already said cold war, plus now Russia and China are now very active in establishemnt of partnership, strategic cooperation with such countries, like North Korea, Vietnam, Iran, Irak, Syria, Libya, Cuba, actually Venezuela, and in the nearest time, if American politicans will not take some kind of appropriate policy according this area, america will face to the coalition of powers, extremely hostile to the United States and to the western civilisation. B: The United States borders Canada and there is all kind of cooperation between the United States and Canada, that doesn‘t threaten Russia or China, now turn the page, China and Russia have a very long border, what evidence do we have, that there is anything threatening to us going on between Russia and China L: First of all, American people are not informed, that confrontation between former Soviet Union and China, which was based on ideological difficulties and differences, between two communist parties, doesn‘t exist anymore. Yes, in the 50s and 60s, there have been several open military conflicts between two countries, but they were based on ideological differences between communist party of Soviet Union and Chinese communist party. After communist party in Russia was removed from power, there is no ideological problems. This countries are developing very close, economical, political and military cooperation during last ten years, and until now they reach level of strategic military alliance, which could not be directed to nowhere, it would be directed against America and American friends and allies worldwide, and this is real danger for the United States national security. B: Is this your interpretation or are you aware as a former Russian spy that there is a deliberate, premeditated, forward moving, forward marching attempt, to take on the United States and destroy the United States. L: Barry, you know how many billions of dollars Americans spent for the support of Russian democracy and free market economy, and of course American people, American taxpayer, they are expecting something in return from Russia, but its not point of view of Russian government, because Russian government spent all this money received from the United States and the west in total for their own purposes, deposited at private accounts in western banks, and they tried to explain Russian people why just now Russian people living so bad, and they repeat history just like that, they told Russian people, by Russian government propaganda -you know, that from last month there is no any more independent press in Russia, everything is under

control of government- and they are telling to Russian people, that they are living so bad, not because of corrupted government, but because of foreign enemy, Russian propaganda tried to deliver to Russian people idea that this foreign enemy which already destroyed former Soviet Union, destroyed Yugoslavia, organises separatist tension in Russian northern Caucasus, and next step this foreign enemy would like to destroy mother Russia itself, they fix the fingers at the United States and American friends and allies, first of all by NATO organisation. B: Here you are Stan Lunev, first of all was it a difficult decision to defect, or did you intent to defect as soon as you saw your opening and bang, the opening came in 1992. L: Barry, it was a difficult decision, it was very difficult decision, and of course it was not like, just like that. But because you know my biography, that when I was young, I been a student of the ? school of military political academy in Moscow and I, like other students of this academy, had the privilige to work in the archives of Soviet Communist Party and when I worked in these archives on my dissertation, I found out, that very well known leaders of international communism and socialism, they were actually insane, they were not normal people, I saw a lot of papers with hand written notes, when Lenin, Stalin, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Trotzky they sacrifice millions of Russian people, for mystical ideologial, which could not be realised, ideas, and after this I didn‘t work for any kind of ideology, I worked for my country only, until I came to the United States, where I found for myself that Soviet propaganda lied to me, to other Soviet people about America, American way of live, American society, about everything, so I changed my mind of course not in 1 day, in 2 days, but in some time my mind was dramatically changed. B: What are the 5 most important things, that you had to tell, not just the CIA but now the American people, about your experience, let‘s do this like a news room, which I‘m sure would please the CIA, if they had it laid out formed, the 5 most important messages that Stan Lunev, Russian spy, now on our side, brings to the American people. L: Barry, I would like little bit continue previous question and answer, because when I came to America, I remember this date, it was August 18, 1988, when I fly by Aeroflot flight from New Foundland to Washington D.C., and Soviet propaganda explained to me and to other Soviet people, that America as a leader of international imperialism, is living very different way of live than Soviet union... B: Was that your first taste of the west 1988? L: Yes, and they explained us, that in the United States only few people living very good life and other people living very bad and need to work very hard, to support these rich people to become more and more rich, and when I fly from New Foundland to Washington, I found that a lot of lights are coming from the ground and I asked my neighbor please put yourself on my place, american people living very bad, they need to work very hard, they need to save everything, so my question was, is it reflection lights from solar battery or something like this ones, and for my surprise my neighbor who fly here several times, he told me no, its not solar batteries, they are swimming pools. If you can see thousands of swimming pools only from one window of one airplane, so American people are not living so bad like Soviet propaganda told us, and it was some kind of eyeopener, that in the United States, really there is a limited number of very rich people, there is number of people who are living very bad, but between them there is huge middle class, who live in this country not bad, and I would like to say, that major treasure of America is this middle class, and this middle class needs to unterstand, that as a base of fortress for the western democracy, this class has to be as a developed as a very important and

valuable for the future and of course, just now is very big point, national security of this country, you know whats happening to this system during last 8 years, its not totaly destroyed, but a lot of problems, just now is very good time try to rebuilt this security systems. B: You mean the 8 years of the Clinton administration? L: Yes of course, it is very well known, it is necessary to rebuild American national security, to rebuilt American armed forces. Actually it is necessary to open eyes for all people about what is really going on between American politicans, whom they can believe, whom they can not believe, especially for their own future development, and of course to continue some kind of wishes for American people, for me is sometimes extremely difficult, to speak about future of this great people, because I‘m not so long time belong to American society but America is great country and American people is the greatest people in the world. B: I‘m a little bit surprised to hear you talk about how Soviet propaganda worked on you, I thought Soviet propaganda was for the little people on the collective farms in Krivoi Rog and Veliki Luki, you were the highest ranking spy ever to defect, I thought they let you know the real score, and didn‘t try to give you Soviet propaganda. L: Barry, unfortunateley, in former Soviet Union, every thing was under influence of government propaganda, and of course when my former associates like me were informed about real digits according American economy, development, American military machine, everything was explained by propaganda, that America is a leader of international imperialism exploitating its own people and other countries specially to become a more richful people, who are in limited number of extremely rich people, so everything was under influence and propaganda and everything was explained by communist party according to its communist party doctrine. B: The gardener comes to visit you, he knows what he has to do, mow the lawn, bloom the flowers, the electrician comes, he knows what he has to do, check your wiring. What does a spy do? Did you land and then go right to the Soviet embassy in Washington? L: No, its very big difference, because spies, real spies in this country, they authorized by the Russian government for the recruitment of people who having access to the secrets of the United States of America, specially to use this secrets in the war preparations against America, but its not limited only spy business, because my former agency is workling like a great system, space satellites, more than 100 hundred space satellites are snaking all over the United States all over the year the same way as over all American friends and allies trying to penetrate through so called electronic secrets of America and American friends, they are supported by navy intelligence and reconnaissance, you know how many Russian so called scientific ships just now are snaking round American coasts and following American submarines, and if you remember 3 years ago, American pilot was blinded by laser radiation or laser weapon, fired from this scientific so called ship, and Navy and Air Force intelligence and reconnaissance, huge radio and radiotechnical intelligence stations world wide are working together to penetrate through American secrets, because America is recognized leader in the world for the development of new technologies and all area connected with military research and development. B: You were over there when the Soviet Union disappeared, you were already here, what kind of word did you get from home? Hey we are not communist any more, come back and choose a new profession, or did they say, look we are going to pretend we are not what we were, but stay right where you are and keep on spying?

L: Barry, its exactly question, I asked my field office chief, after disintegration of former Soviet Union, when America military cargo planes delivered humanitarian aid to Russia, to support Russian people, to feed Russian people, by the way from that time the most favorite food for ordinary Russians is Bush-legs, bush = president Bush and legs = chicken legs, delivered by American military, specialy to help Russians in a very difficult winter of 1991 and 92 and the same time, when America began to supply money and other help and assistance I myself asked my field office chief, why we continue this spy business, and he told me, that he himself would like to send special letter to my former agency leaders and request them to change our activity against America, to make that not so hostile like before, but to make it more friendly, like friendly countries are spying against America, and he sent this letter to Moscow and in few days we received strong message signed by my former agency director general, who said us, by other words „shut your mouth“ and continue and increase spy activity against America, but make it much more covered and vigilant. This is an answer, and about few weeks later we received message from former Russian president Yeltsin who requested my former agency and KGB, that time it was renamed as SWR, to increase our spy activity against America and request for all Russian embassy in every country to support intelligence agencies in their penetration through American secrets. B: We have always been very skilled when people like you fall into our lap, when you let the Americans know that you were a high ranking, the highest ranking Russian spy and you wanted to defect, tell us what you knew, did they welcome you, did they treat you, I want you to judge the CIA and the FBI on the way they handled you. L: Barry, its very difficult questions, because from what standards I can describe process of handling, and yes, I saw faces of people, who briefed and debriefed me many times that some of them didn‘t believe me, and when I continue to stand on the same point as before, they began to check and verify my information from other sources and some times some kind of pleasure to see faces which looked at you very suspicious how dramatically these faces changes, after they received information which supported my information, so I cannot say that I had some kind of problems in dealing with the United States special services representatives, no. Because I came to this country especially to help this country and I‘m actually trying to do everything what is possible for me to support this country from my position and for me process of handling is not so important than point that I can do something for this country. B: What about your family in Russia? L: No, my family is with me here. B: So there was no reason for you not to defect once you got the opportunity. L: Yes and actually, if I wouldn‘t have a chance to stay in this country with my family, maybe my decision would be very different. B: Part of what you‘ve told us off microphone and written is absolutely bone marrow curdling, you talk about the nature of the likely war against the United States. Get into that little bit, assassination, poisoning of water. L: Barry, its only few details of Russian military plans for the future war against America, because many scenarios were designed by Soviet and Russian general staff for the future war against American, but in summary, these plans look like very special war operations against America and American friends and allies, which will be in place not so much by regular missile and nuclear strike, but will begin by special operation forces commandos which will come here

during peace time very well in advance before real war would be in place with very special missions, in few hours, maybe days before regular missile and nuclear strike will hit territory of the United States this Russian commandos need to destroy American communication system, power system, assassin American military political leaders, who are in the chain of military command, especially to establish situation of panic and chaos in this country before regular missile nuclear strike will hit the territory of the United States. And for this mission they could be equiped not only by conventional weapons, special communication systems, ammunition, but tactical portable nuclear devices which had to be storaged on American territory very well in advance and I am sure that some of this tactical nuclear devices were located on the territory of the United States until recently. B: Right this minute, you think there are Russian arms supplies nuclear backpack nuclear weapons hidden on American territory? L: Yes, and actually ist not big secret for military that these devices could be deployed in this country during peace time, and according to my information some of these devices were located on American soil, like on the territory of American friends and allies. But what was major point for my book publication in 1998 is specially to inform Russian military commanders that their military plans are not so big secret any more and maybe to push Russian military commanders to remove these tactical nuclear devices from American soil. I hope that they remove it but I am not sure that they remove it and according to these military plans in few hours before real war would be in place, Russian commandos need to pick up this weapon systems and delivered for the places of the operational use, you know, that after regular nuclear missile launch in few minutes American president, vice president and other people in the chain of military command they would be on the way for evacuation and in few minutes they would be on the board of Air Force One, Two, Three and others, so Russian commandos need to intercept them on the way of evacuations and eliminated and specially to destroy American military chain of command. B: This is frightening and I wanna point out, that there are so called contingency plans, there are plans in the Pentagon right now, is to what America would do if airplans from Costa Rica would bomb Finnland, political science fiction! Are these Russian intentions or just contingency plans to make work for officials, draw up fantasies and scenarios. L: Good question, because if it would be only intentions, or some kind of war games they would not deploy weapon systems in foreign countries during peace time very well in advance before the war, they would not train special operations commandos which are coming here to the us during peacetime specially to know exactly what they will do in time, when war will come to this country, and of course they would not deploy new types of weapons actually everywhere where its possible designed specially to destroy America, you know that just now, some American politicians of capitol hill, they try to dispute president Bush plans for national missile defence, just now they try to prevent development of national missile defence for America, in time when Russia just now were deploying third regiment of strategic nuclear missiles, its name is TopolM, which were designed specially to penetrate national missile defence if it would be built some time. B: Hold that point, we will continue on the other side with Russian military preparations, beginning with Topol-M. -B: I‘m Barry Farber and across our Newsmax microphones, the highest ranking Russian spy

ever to defect, the highest ranking Russian military spy, underline military, his name is Stan Lunev, defected in 1992 like an alarmclock he is going off and our objective is to let him ring and not to turn it off, Stan Lunev, the Russia that we are told is bankrupt, no longer communist, democratic, in need of help, greatful to the west for help, no threat to anybody, the soldiers have to beg, the soldiers that where left over in East Germany sold their weapons for food, thats not a very frightening picture. L: Yes, but we keep in mind, that Russian military arsenal consists from two major parts, strategic arsenal and conventional, and in time, when Russian government cannot affort to develop its conventional forces, its pay very close attention on the development of strategic arsenal, strategic nuclear missiles, strategic submarines, strategic bombers, and this is connected with Russian military plans, which question we already touched before, because according this military plans, after strikes of Russian commandos it would be massive attack of strategic nuclear weapons against America and against American friends and allies, which will destroy actually American infrastructure, and if in time of former Soviet Union Russian military command plan some kind of invasion, occupation of Europe, of the United States, just now they don‘t even think about this ones, because during this decade, Russian strategic nuclear weapons was developed so much, that after this nuclear missile strike it would be nothing to occupy, and of course they do not pay very close attention over development of conventional forces, but they continue development of strategic weapons. B: Wouldn‘t they want to take a price like America intact and not destroyed? L: Actually, I don‘t want it, i don‘t like it at all, but this is real military plans, and if these plans would be realised, America would be totaly destroyed, of course Russia will have retaliated strike, but they are preparing themselves, in time when American politicians only discuss American plans for national missile defense, Russia already has ist own national missile defense. B: Russia already has, when it gets angry because we say we wanna built? L: And russia doesn‘t like to provide the same capabilities to America, because its already has its own national missile defense, which consists not only from space based and ground based command and control radars, missile interceptors, Barry, you can imagine that Russia deployed nuclear warhead missile interceptors more than 10 years ago, nuclear warheads with several megatones of power, you can imagine whats happen in space, if this interceptor warhead will exploded, actually the whole space would be under influence of this explosion and very small number of retaliated strike missiles will reach Russian territory and according to your question, if its only ideas, if its only dreams, but in time when Russia deployed just now a second generation of nuclear missile interceptors, its continue very actively, so called passive steps, they are still constructing huge bunkers, under Moscow, under St. Petersburg, very long distance underground communication system in Ural mountain, just now they continue construction of huge underground bunker, which could be by the size of Washington D.C. beltway, especially to save government elite in time of retaliative strike. B: A bunker under the Ural mountains as big as Washington D.C.? L: Yes, the same size like Washington D.C. beltway! B: Topol-M, that is not a new Russian toothpaste? L: No, its strategic nuclear missile based on mobile launcher, most important that it based on the truck, on the heavy truck, which nonstop is on its way of combat patrol, which makes this

truck extremely diffcult to detect and to destroy and this is some kind of base for the future Russian strategic missile development, in time when American military they simply cannot affort to have the same system, ita extremely expensive, they deploying third regiment of this missiles which are sneaking in Siberian forests, in Ural mountains and ready to launch strategic missile against America, every second. B: You say, it is designed to penetrate any missile defence we might have? L: Yes, and its not my words, its Russian officials, open public statements. B: Take us back to the kindergarten of modern warfare, explain the difference between strategic and tactical weapons, and give us Russian size in each. L: It depends... characteristics of these weapons are based on the range of flight for strategic or tactical nuclear missiles, you know that, tactical they are very limited, its about 100, 300 miles only, strategic it means, that these missiles can reach target at any part of our planet. And of course power of nuclear warheads are very different, and if tactical from several kilotons would be very different, which consist from megatons, and of course much more differences in ? in equipment, and of course protection of these weapons, because to find out, where strategic Russian weapons are just now, its not very difficult, and its possible to detect from space, from Air Force reconaissance and counterintelligence, but very few people know that actually, Russian military command, they don‘t have clear idea, how many tactical nuclear weapons they do have like warheads for tactical missiles, air bombs, artillery shells, mines, nuclear mines, and others, because in time of former Soviet Union these tactical nuclear weapons where located on the territory of Russian military districts, after the USSR disintegration, so called first echelon, or border military district, just now are on the territory of other, non Russian newly independent states and unfortunately documentation how many exactly tactical nuclear weapons and their location before the USSR disintegration disappeared in 1991 and 1992 when Russian military command began to find out, how many tactical nuclear weapons they need to remove back to Russia. B: Isn‘t America paying to Russia to destroy weapons like that? L: Yes, America pay Russian government sufficient sum of money for their destruction, but as usual all this money which are going to Russia, they are used by Russian government by their own and major part of this money if not all of this money, they simply disappeared, but before disappearance, this money are going to Russian military industrial complex and used by Russian government for the development of Russian nuclear weapons of the next generation. B: I can see a father sending money for a child in college and saying spend it for books, spend it for tutoring, and the father doesn‘t realize how much goes for whiskey or drugs or whatever. I cannot imagine the United States government giving Russia money to destroy weapons and not having American observers right there to watch the destruction. L: Yes, its very good example, and all this billions of dollars which came to Russia from 1991 actually disappeared at private accounts of corrupted Russian elite and according agreements between president Yeltsin government and Clinton/Gore-team, Americans didn‘t have any right to control ways where this money are going inside Russia. B: I remember when the Soviet Union collapsed, a year later, somebody on my radio show, told me, they are still making nuclear submarines, and my impression was how do you like that their communications are bad, they just havent got around to cancel everything yet, now our side must know, that what you are saying is true, if they don‘t know everything you know, they

know some of the things you know. How can America keep up this pretence of „we are friends“ and „Russia is a new democracy“ when they see this weaponry, that has the ways and means to destroy us. L: I think its question for American politicians which do not inform American people about whats really going on in the same countries like Russia, like China and other countries with traditional anti-American sentiments and yes, you are absolutely right, when this money began to come to Russia you know that actually its not my idea, but this is information from Russia that exactly this time Russia had the chance to build the largest in the world and largest for Russia nuclear cruiser Peter the Great, and the same time Russia deploy new generation of strategic nuclear ballistic missile submarines they developed new generation of attack submarine, and actually they began to built –you know stealth technology- but they began to build navy ships made by stealth technology, not only Topol-M but you can find out dozent of example how Russian government developing its weapons not only nuclear, but chemical, biological and other types of futuristic weapons with the help and assistance from money they received from the Unted States and other western countries. B: The psychology is extremely interesting, do you have in Russia the legend, do you know what I‘m taking about, when I talk about the goose that lays the golden egg, do you have that fable in Russia where there is a goose that lays the golden eggs and one man got real greedy and decided to cut the goose open and get all the golden eggs at once and of course, he killed the goose that would no longer lay golden eggs. It seems to me that Russia would not want to destroy the United States, that Russia would want to keep us producing golden eggs. L: Barry, this is psychology of normal people, but Russian government which is extremely corrupted and working not so much for Russian people but for itself, they have very different psychology and they think in absolutely different way, they believe that if they will have more than enough strategic nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destrcution, they will dictate their will to western countries and instead of you already said several billion dollars for Russian government as a help and assistance, they will demand hundreds of billions, and if they will have more than enough power, of course they will extort much more money, than can do it now. B: New kinds of weapons seem to be coming out of Russia, here is a new one on me, maybe a lot of other people, what is a seismic weapon and was is the Russian government doing to produce them? L: This is actually artificial earthquake, which could be generated by special devices, which increase natural seismic waves, which are under our (Earth’s) surface and explode like natural earthquake with all following circumstances. Its actually, this weapon development was in place for about more than 20 years and in the mid of 80s there have been several fields tests of this weapons and maybe you heard this Armenian city Spitak was totally destroyed. B: Good lord, dont tell me that was a Soviet test? L: It was an accidental explosion. B: That was an artificialy induced earthquake? L: It was accidental explosion of earthquake which was generated by the test of seismic weapons. B: What about Russians production of chemical and biological weapons? L: If i understand rightly, they continue this production, but most important that they accelerated

research and development for the creation of new type of biological and chemical weapons and not only this weapons steps because they are working very hard for low frequency radio waves weapons, for laser weapons and for other types of future weapons systems. B: Is there anybody on our side Col. Lunev, saying, yeah we see what they are doing, we are going keep on pretending we are friends, they think they are fooling us, but they are not fooling us and we are covering them and we are keeping taps on them and we think we are at least even or ahead, is there any attitude like that that you see in American leadership? L: I can tell you in 80s and early beginning of 90s, American politicians they keep very close eye on what was going on in former Soviet Union and in beginning of so called independent Russia, independent I don‘t know from what. But under previous administration I think that American politicians were much more busy by their political games and instead of watching out whats going on in Russia, they did something different just now I can see, that new American policy is developing and I hope that president Bush jun. will fulfill his preelection promises and will pay very close attention over American national security and situation in countries which are not so friendly to the United States. I remember my briefings and meetings with representatives of different American special services after my defection. And I can tell you that between them there are a lot of highly trained and very good prepared professionals and I know exactly that they informed American political leaders about whats going on in Russia, but why American politicians didn‘t pay any attention of these reports I think is questions for American politicians. B: One weapon that Russia doesn‘t have that it used to is communist party members and sympathisers and fellow travelers helping Moscow sell Washington whatever they wanna sell to Washington in other words you don‘t have that ideological hammer any more to make dance in the American thinking. L: And this is very fortunate that communist party is not dominate in Russia anymore and I hope that it will never return back to power in Russia, but keep in mind that there are some other countries which we have communist regimes and these regimes are very actively developing so called leftists parties, organisation in the United States and in western countries, like Chinese did it for a long period of time. B: There is an attitude in America that says, a country must be communist in order to be dangerous. L: We can say so. B: But Russia is proofing that‘s not true? L: Because communist ideology is a very powerful tool in government and political elite of any country, but in Russia which been under communism domination more than 70 years it has some kind of immunität against returning back of communism ideology and you know that 10 years ago I remember exactly when Russian people they looked at the United States as some kind of example for their democratic development, for free market economy in Russia and I remember that majority they were exited about American way of life but unfortunately russian government during this 10 yerars they made eveything to discredit American and western democratic values and just now more and more Russians are looking at American not as a friend and not as an example. B: The American government and the American people join the Russian government and the Russian people in morning the loss of your nuclear submarine the Kursk at the bottom of the

Barentsea all crewmembers lost, what was the Kursk doing? L: Actually Kursk took part in Navy exercises, before deployment of this nuclear submarine in mediterranian where some Russian military ships need to be deployed as a part of Russian president Putins plans to restore Russian international military position and influence, but in time of these exercises, you remember this tragedy when these people died, unfortunalety for these people, Russian military usualy they very hurry in doing something and contrary to all Navy regulations, they demuted to test new Russian torpedos in time of field exercises and in time when one torpedo had to launch submarine its exploded and detonated explosion of warheads of other torpedos and cruise missiles so it was a real, real, real desaster. B: What kind of torpedo has Russia developed? L: They name it superspeed or supersonic torpedo with speed extremely high and actually like any other weapon systems it was designed to kill American navy ships and American until now just now do not have defense system from these torpedos. B: Do we have a torpedo similar that will go as fast. L: But not so fast, not so fast and until now American military they cannot afford to develop the same weapon system like they cannot affort to have very many Russian weapons which just now are deployed in Russian military. B: A great American film director from England original, Alfred Hitchcock said, if there is a gun in act one, it is gonna go off in act three. You‘ve talked about the Russian leadership viewing war with America as inevitable. Its a slide difference between viewing war as inevitable and planing war. Which side of that line do you think Russia is on at the moment. L: Yes its very, very big difference between these two points but in time when you do have a lot of evidences that Russians are preparing their military machine for this future war against America and morrow victorious war, its not only blablabla, ist realistic plans which are developing just now in real live. B: This is the end of part two, stay right were you are, we will begin part three and learn what it is like to be a spy and what it means not just for the spy but to us. -B: Im Barry Farber and to call him a master spy is not to inflate his importance he is Col. Stanley Lunev, he is the highest ranking military spy ever to defect from Russia, he defected in 1992, he still travels the world consultant to the CIA to other American intelligence entities and to other governments. Good question how can you know, your information is ten years old, how can you be sure its updated and no longer distorted. L: Barry, actually my information connected with history its one story but I try to keep records over developments which are under way currently, and you know that really to be a spy it means to penetrate through the secrets of hostile country, by recruitment with access to these secrets, you know that I worked in the United States under civilian cover of TASS and news agency correspondent and when I worked in this country I found for myself that in America you can find American secrets not only by regular spy business but by research in American press and sometime in American newspapers first of all in liberal press you can find top secret American documents and other onformation and of course during last years after my defection I use this same methods try to find out whats realy going on in Russia and sometimes successfully. B: In other words you don‘t have to do much digging in America, we give it away.

L: Yes, exactly like just now I am searching Russian press speaking with Russian people, watching Russian TV, and between lines I can find a lot of information like I did when I was spy. B: The cover that they gave you was as a journalist, does that mean we got to suspect every Russian journalist here being a spy? L: No, but I can tell you that according former Soviet communist party politburo special decision between all Russian official positions in foreign countries 33% belong to my former agency for military intelligence 33% belong for former KGB, just now SWR, and only 33% are so called green people who came to this country after they signed special paper for cooperation with GRU or former KGB, so you can make your own account how many green people and how many spies you have here between journalists, diplomats, specialists which are official representatives of Russia in this country. B: Can you take us to a day in the life of a spy, is it a nine to five job? L: No, its 24 hours, maybe sometimes 25 hours per day. And for me it was one of the most difficult operational cover, because I need to spend not less 50% of my time working as a corresopondent to specially keep American special services disinformed about my real life in this country and 50% are directly used for the spy business, but you know, for journalists its not very difficult to mix these positions, because actually, journalism is very close to spy business. B: You were assigned to recurit Americans to provide information, did you succedd, are there people spying for Russia who you recruited. L: Actually I was authorized for the recruitment of people, because not all of my former associates or members of KGB field office are authorized for the recruitment, only most experienced and most trusted people are authorized for the recruitment and of course when I sneaked around my operational area, its Washington D.C., and established contact with different people, first question was, is it a real candidat for possible recruitment or maybe this person specially asigned for American counter intelligence to be like a double agent and of course, some times you never know, you approach somebody and according special procedure inform Mosocw about this contact immediately and Moscow requested you to stop all contact with this person already is under attention of former KGB or other special services. Its very typical in spy business, that some agents are working for two or three or sometimes more intelligence agencies. B: We have an expression in english, popping the question, very tense moment, will you marry me, may I have the job, coach am I gonna be the quarterback, popping the question is a very difficult and interesting writter passage, how did you pop the question, you here you are a Russian journalist, at the outset a Soviet journalist and then you transition into a Russian journalist because you were here working when communism fell you were working as a Russian spy for almost 3 years after communism fell, what do you do, you go up to an American you think has information and say look would you like to spy for the Soviet Union how did you do this? L: Barry, you ask me two very big questions, professional questions, and keep in mind, when you are working in this country under cover of journalist you have a chance to go to different briefings, press conferences, presentations everywhere and you are not looking for people who will tell you that I am ready to spy for you, if I will found this guy I will found double agent I don‘t need it and I don‘t want it. But if somebody will continue contacts with me with a person who has very clear foreign accent and in my time who was Soviet journalist it means, that this

person want‘s something from me or needs something from me, and it depends from level of my training and expertise to understand why this person continue contact with me to find out reason and it would be the reason for cooperation and for recruitment. B: Where you required to pay, or where you authorized to pay Americans for information? L: if I developed our relations to the level of agent and handler, of course I was authorized to pay for this person. B: Did you ever succeed in getting an American to that level? L: Keep in mind my operational cover TASS news agency correspondent and if I receive information from person and I have to pay him for this information, for me it was very easy to do, because I explained my contact that I wrote a story on the base of information I received from that person, get honorarium and I do not feel myself comfortable if I will not share this honorarium with my friend, if its going on up to 10.000$ its not big problem, but if more, its big problem, and you need to reinforce reason why do you pay him, but you asked me another question. It was in time of former Soviet Union and usually first question I get from my contacts, where are you from, I can tell you, more than 99% of people who I contacted, I never met anymore, they disappeared and I developed contacts with people of only 1 person of only 1% from all contacts I established, just now, situation changed dramatically, and if somebody asked me, where are you from, and I will tell him I’m from Russia, he will say, wow, friend, partner, how to make business together, lets go for a lunch, just now its much more easy, much more easy, than it was 10 years ago. B: How would you describe the success of russia in penetrating the American government, CIA, FBI, State Department, Defense Department, etc. L: Barry you know, during last couple of years, American public was very widly informed about Chinese penetration through the American society, but I can tell you that Chinese intelligence compared to my former agency ist somekind of kids game, because they do not have experience like we had, they do not equipped like my agency by electronic and other technical methods, they do not have space intelligence, they do not have so much support like Russian intelligence have in its penetration through America for many, many years, and actually, you know that during last several years, some Russian agencies were disclosed like Aldrich ames, Speeds Nicolson, Mr. Handson last one, all of them worked not for my former agency, they worked for former KGB and KGB they can affort to recruit people, who walk in, but Russian military intelligence, my former agency, which is working for the future war is extremely careful in handling of these people and we recruit people by different way. B: Even though you defected, you have that pride in your unite, you say you ran rings around the Chinese, when it comes to penetrating America and stealing our secrets and you are even proud that you did even better than your allie, the KGB. L: Yes, I‘m proud, but I have to deliver to American people, my point that Russian military intelligence, which is absolutely unknown in this country, is much more powerful and much more experienced than former KGB intelligence and operating in this country much more aggressively than any other intelligence. You asked me about level of Russian intelligence penetration, I don‘t know by what reason but Russian former president Yeltsin in his book which was published last year, Midnight Diaries, he openly said that he was informed by Russian intelligence about Monica Levinsky case about possible development and impeachment of the American president, in about two years before it became known to the American congress

and American people. You know how carefully people prefer to keep their own private secrets compared to their government and their country secrets and if russian intelligence penetrated through this secret which was known only for a couple of guys inside white house, its very clear evidence of Russian intelligence penetration through American political establishment. B: Did you find many Americans looking for you wanting to make money by giving away American secrets? L: Excellent question, Barry, no, because American people, very good people and very proud people and patriotic people and between fellow Americans, there are only few, maybe hundreds, maybe thousands of people who in their mind are not strongly opposed to sell their country secrets for money they need as an extra. How many spies of course I cannot pretent to know, but couple of years ago, Washington metropolitan FBI field office executive in charge of national security has said openly that only his office, its only his office in Washington DC area, was investigated two hundred criminal cases with foreign espionage envolvement, usually its only top of the iceberg, means, thousands of spies are working in this country, against this country. B: You know the FBI has made so many mistakes, likely the CIA in sort of out of the spotlight, but I‘m thinking that incredible dismal job did with a defector back in the days of the Soviet Union, was his name Yurchenko, his CIA handler trusted him so much, he let him go the bathroom in a Georgetown restaurant and he jumped out of the restaurant, got into a cab, went to the Soviet embassy and redefected. Is that typical of the CIA, did they do a better job with you? L: First of all it happened in the mid of 80s, yes with KGB Colonel Yurchenko, and after this I remember it was serial of his interview to Russian central television, to newspaper magazines, and Russian authorities, they said that Yurchenko took part in special operation, to penetrate through American intelligence community on the point of how American intelligence handling defectors and other people in their responsibility, so KGB pretend to say that it was their operation, CIA made a lot of mistakes, connected with Yurchenko case and later they changed their practice dramatically, in my own case its absolutely different story, and actually in my situation I received more help from this people, that obstacles I need to overcome. B: The Israeli intelligence agency the Mossad works closely with the CIA, thats no secret. After the fall of communism, I thought that... you are shaking your head, no the Mossad does not work with the CIA? L: I can not say that they are working together, they are working together in areas which are important for exactly mutual interests of both countries, but you know how active Israel intelligence is working not only in hostile countries but in friendly countries and we had many examples of Israel intelligence activity in this country like worldwide, which could not be considering that they are very friendly to the United States and Israel is a very, very experienced and very respected intelligence service, they have a lot of possibilities and capabilities to assist America much more, than they do it now, to accelerate this tendency and to develop responsibilities ? is vital for American intelligence community. B: I trust the CIA at least to know this, if Russia is supposed to be a friend and if Russian intelligence agencies are supposed to be friendly to ours and working together least as much as the Israeli, the French, the British, I trust the CIA to know something is wrong here they are not realy acting like a friend, a friend gives you 80%, Russian intelligence didn’t giving us 10 or

15%, do you think we are aware of the emnity of the hostility and of the attitude, that hey, we are gonna go to war with each other. L: You know, that recent president Bush decision to expel about 15 Russian spies from this country, it was actually because America can not afford to keep so many spies on its soil now. And its decision, politically it was of course totally correct, practically it doesn‘t so important like politically and it works and for a while America will feel itself a little bit more safety when these Russian spies will go out of this country and will replace by new guys, so it was some kind of break in intelligence activity against the United States, but to consider Russian intelligence friendly, no nobody cannot say so. B: American leaders usually are politicians, you know ? governor of Arkansas, governor of Texas. The leader of Russia, Putin, was a spy, like you? L: No, he never was a spy like me, because I was assigned to strategic intelligence (B: military), and this guy, he was in operational intelligence, its not strategic, and he had only one foreign trip in Eastern Germany, where he worked under cover of official from friendship house between Eastern Germany and Russians for several years, but mostly for counterintelligence purposes, not intelligence and not for recruiting foreigners but to verify loyalty of Russian military personnel inside Eastern Germany, so I cannot say that we had the same background. B: You sound now like a marine drill instructor in Paris Island, poopooing the discipline of the plain old regular Army in other words he was KGB and they are trash as for as your agency was concerned. L: Barry, its not only because of that, but you know that he stay in Germany in time of preparation for Soviet armed forces withdrawal from Eastern Germany and you know how many scandal corruption cases where in case, when they sell weapons to local people... and its not in Russian president Putin official biography, but after he returned home back from Germany for several months he couldn‘t find any job in Russia, it means that he did something against law, or against KGB regulation when he stayed in Germany. Finally he was moved from intelligence to counterintelligence, ist very, very big step down in his career, and after this he was moved from active service to reserve, so one more step down and find himself in Leningrad university. Is that intelligence career? No its life of person who is not so clean by his ?. B: So he went down, down, down, until he became the leader of Russia? L: Very easy, very easy to say why, because he, when he been in KGB active reserve they had position of dean assistant for foreign relations, especially to keep control over students who had contacts with foreigners and by request of KGB in 1991, he restored his relations with Anatoliy Sobchak, candidate to the post of Leningrad mayor from independent group of people and Sobchak was professor of Putin, when Putin was student of Leningrad university. From request of the KGB and money from the KGB Putin restored his relations with his former professor Sobchak and established himself as person number two in Sobchak administration exactly beginning of 90s to 1996, when Sobchak was major of Leningrad, later St.Petersburg, this city became a black hole for Russian weapon systems, nuclear materials, mineral resources, gold, diamonds and everything what disappeared from Russia and appeared in Iran, Irak, Syria, Libya and other rogue countries. B: The mafia, to us, is just a disease, a terrible consequence, something that went into the power vacuum when communism died and democracy was trying to get born, you have a different impression of the mafia in Russia?

L: Yes its very different mafia, because you know, Sicilian-, Columbian- mafia, they are under permanent attack from their government which try to do something against this mafia, but in russia its impossible, because Russian mafia include government members, law enforcement agency leaders, generals, as members of mafia-type organisation in Russia, deputy prime minister, parliament members, they are members of this mafia-type organizations in Russia, how can you fight against mafia in Russia where all these people are in power and until now, Russia cannot approve a law specially designed for the fight against mafia type organisations, because parliament is strongly opposed this law and in this country its no joke, but Russian people they use it like joke, several words that just now every political party has supported mafia and every mafia has one, two, maybe more political parties in Russia. B: You know Fidel Castro is very, very angry at Russia, ridicules Russia for going soft and letting communism down and letting revolution down, and letting the workers of the world down, if Castro is so angry at Russia, how come is China which is just as communist as Fidel Castro, how come they are friendly to you, why aren‘t they as angry as you for letting communism down as Castro is? L. Let‘s say that Castro was very angry about Russia a few years ago, when Russian help and assistance was reduced dramatically to his regime, but during last few years, this help and assistance was restored and actually annually Fidel Castro has many millions of dollars which are going to his country from Russia as a lease for Russian, my former agency, SIGINT station, location very close to Havanna, and as a money for the preservation of nuclear plant which construction was in placed many years ago, but after this not so much. Chinese, they were happy when communist party of Soviet Union disappeared because it was major adversary for Beijing style Mao Tse Tung ideas combined with their own communism and socialism. B: How would you explain to the American people, why we should give one dollar to Russia, as long as Russia gives one dollar to Fidel Castro? L: Let‘s say that from one dollar received from America, Russia spent for Fidel Castro maybe 10 cents, but how its going on I don‘t know. Because some times previous administration policy was so strange and difficult to understand that I couldn‘t find out answer for very simple questions. B: What follows in our concluding segment will be the most breathtaking astounding details, ever revealed by a Russian spy to the people of the United States, Colonel Stanley Lunev is the highest ranking military spy ever to defect from Russia and he is willing to tell us all, and we will give him time to tell us all. -B: I‘m Barry Farber and I am in a political military secret conspiratorial cold war candy store with no need to break for commercials. Across our Newsmax microphones right now is the highest ranking military spy ever to defect from the Soviet Union, ever to defect from Russia. He is Colonel Stanislav Lunev, and Colonel in our closing segment here let‘s cover in as much ground as we can. Do you know who killed John F. Kennedy? L: Of course I don‘t know exactly who killed John Kennedy but I heard that it was a very special operation, designed by soviet political leaders, to kill American president Kennedy and this operation involved not only KGB and my former agency, strategic military intelligence GRU, but was organized together with different antigovernment elements inside the United States using American criminal groups, include mafia and actually what we do know now ist only very small

piece of the iceberg over this operation which was especially designed to physically eliminate American commander in chief. B: Why would Russia wanna do that? L: This operation actually began not in time when he was killed, but much earlier in time of Cuban or Caribbean crisis when Soviet special services used their resources to prepare assassination of American commander in chief and when this crisis was over, this operation continued especially to destroy a person who provided very damage to Soviet international prestige and authority. You know that Caribbean crisis or Cuba crisis was finished by withdrawal of Soviet strategic nuclear missiles from Cuban territory. B: Is Castro a dead volcano or do you think he is still dangerous? L: Castro is one between few totalitarian communist dictators in the world, of course he is still dangerous because he is keeping very strong control over his country and providing territory of his country to extremely hostile forces for the United States, because Russian they do have very big military establishment in Cuba, their SIGINT station Lourdes is still very active in gathering intelligence information against America and just now Chinese are coming to Cuba with billions of dollars they are having from profit they traded with America. B: This is not well known, we read American tourists, and Czech tourists, and German tourists and British tourists and Swedish tourists, I dont think most Americans realize what you just said, I wanna go back to it, are you telling me that there are Russian military bases in Cuba today? L: Yes, unfortunately its absolutely unknown to American public that there is huge Russian military and political intelligence presence on Cuban territory. And very well known for especially is Lourdes SIGINT station is only one very small part of this military intelligence presence of Russian federation on Cuban territory. B: This is a very distressing question, next, POWs, we feel that there are still American prisoners of war, possibly alive who are held illegaly and against all treaties by North Vietnam, we hear some of them went to the Soviet Union, also from the Korean war, and there are even allegations, that the Soviet Union, this is hard to believe, kept American GIs prisoner in World War 2 when we and the Soviet Union where allies. Do you know anything about the POWs and the MIAs missing in action? L: Of course I do not have direct access to information about American POWs but I heard and I heard many time and from reliable sources, that American personnel from the World War 2 from Korean war and from Vietnam war, they were taken to the former Soviet Union directly or via other socialist countries and they where used by Soviet leaders for gathering intelligence information about the United States and American friends and allies, first of all military information and actually until now, Russian government still keeping it as a very big secret, but Russian former president Yeltsin, in 1992, when first time he made his official visit to the United States, he openly recognized that American POWs were taken to the former Soviet Union, he told it on the board of the Russian presidential airplane, on his way to Washington D.C., but after airplane landed, his aides and assistants explained to American officials that Yeltsin was as usual totaly drunk and he didn‘t respond to questions which were asked him by American reporters. B: So they wanted to patch it back up so that the official version would be, we don‘t know anything about this. L: Officially yes, they do not recognize that POWs from the United States were taken to former

Soviet Union. B: This sounds like horror fiction, but is it true that there is a plan in place for Russia to poison the American water supply? L: Barry this is actually very big question, because war preparations from Russian federation are in place like it was in time of former Soviet Union existance and during these preparations, Russian military considering possibility to strike American soil before regular nuclear missiles will reach American territory by special operation forces commandos who will use not only tactical nuclear devices but containers with chemical, biological weapons, which were especially designed to destroy this country in time before war will come, during war time and after war would be between two countries. B: Are such plans on the frontburner, backburner or forgotten down in the oven, for instance we have contingency plans theoretically the pentagon has a plan what to do if airplanes from Costa Rica would have bombed Finnland, I mean an impossible thing... contingency plan but would you call it a frontburner operation, they have the ways and means to poison our water? L: We are talking about general military point of view, we need to check out, whats going in regular military training of different countries. I never heard that American military just now considering to destroy Russian federation, but Russian military all their field exercises during last several years are organized for the future war against the United States and American friends and allies and during this war preparation, sometimes they disclose little details about their real war plans and intentions. B: You know people who are, what they call second amendment people, who defend the right to own firearms, they say that those who wanna control firearms, take firearms away, you know sort of mute that right and take away the right of Americans to own firearms, they say, every dictatorship wants to take guns away from the people, is that naive, is there any talk or any thinking, that you know in Russia that says watch out now, because a lot of Americans have guns? L: Very good question because in Russia situation is absolutely different and to have guns in Russia its criminal punishment from few months to a couple of years in prison only to have guns, because its illegal in Russia, and of course in military plans Russian military command they have very close account about how many guns are on the hands or in hands of American civilian people, because these guys if something happen with American military machine will have a chance to protect themselves to protect their state, to protect their country and of course Russian military plans are in total account with this number of guns in the hands of Americans. B: So it would delight Moscow if there were total gun control in America. L: Moscow will love it if America will establish control over guns, like its going on in Russia. B: Lets give a brief blunt assessment from the Russian point of view of every American president since John F. Kennedy. I guess if they assassinated him, that sort of answers the question of how they viewed president Kennedy, did they view president Kennedy as a dangerous enemy of the Soviet Union. L: Barry, its, we do have very short time but very big question and to characterize all American presidents, of course its very interesting but I can tell you one, that after John Kennedy Russia was scared or afraid of only one president: Ronald Reagan, yes and Russian propaganda tried to deliver to Russian people idea that president Reagan was unpredictable and unresponsible but according Russian intelligence information, he was genious and he made so much for

strengthen America to, for the improvement of American national security that actually he became the greatest American president of last period of our history. B: So, in America there are still people who say Reagan is a buffoon, an actor and of no consequence intellectualy or politicaly really, thats not the view from Moscow? L: No, Moscow knew exactly what does it mean Reagan and most important, Soviet leaders they knew exactly what people are inside inner circle of Ronald Reagan and people who prepare his policy, his policy planer, policy makers and Ronald Reagan was so genious to organize extremely talented group of people that its became major reason for the United States victory in the cold war. B: Strange you say that the only president that the Soviet Union feared was Reagan, you would think they feared Lyndon Johnson who mobilized the American military for all out war in Vietnam, or Nixon, the very cunning steadfast anticommunist, Gerald Ford, I guess was not much on the political on the scale of threats to the Soviet Union? L: But I think if Ronald Reagan would be American president in time of Vietnam war, it would never have finished so sadly like it finished in 1975. B: How about Bush sen. who put together a coalition to chase Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait? L: He made a lot for America but compared with Ronald Reagan, I cannot say that he did everything what was possible for the United States. B: Now interesting question, Clinton? L: President Clinton is very, very strange politician, because I do not pretend to be some kind of expert in American policy but I know that according Russia or Russian policy of the United States, his administration made so many mistakes and rely on very strange sweetheard deals with corrupted Russian leaders that actualy America during president Clinton administration made everything to discredit idea of democracy and free market economy for Russians, unfortunately during last 8 years these ideas of democracy and free market economy in Russia were totaly destroyed. B: Is that president Clintons fault? L: Not his own because first of all, from group of people who advice him what to do according Russia and eastern european policy. B: Now, how about George W. Bush? L: I hope that George W. Bush will fulfill his pre-election promises and will realize the program which was officialy declared by him before his election and in time after he became a president. B: You know we all know, that we came close to war with the Soviet Union at the Cuban missile crisis, it was the only time in my lifetime where wives in the suburbs called their husbands in offices in downtown manhattan and said please come home immediately, they feared an atomic strike on cities like New York and Washington, where there any other times when we came close to war with the Soviet Union. L: Cuban crisis it was exactly time when we were on the edge of real war and I heard that only once in Soviet history, special operation forces commandos who had to take part in pre-war operations against America were deployed in the United States, yes, were deployed in the United States and were ready in few hours to eliminate American political leaders who are in charge of the military chain of command. B: Are you telling us you had meaningfull military assests on the territory of the United States? L: Yes, they came here like tourists, students, not only from Russia but many countries, covered

themselves by very carefully prepared documentation and documents and were ready to pick up weapon systems which were storaged in this country and to became soldiers in few minutes after command. B: How could they get their orders, I mean we listen very well, we eavesdrop very well, you know the NSA, National Security Agency. L: Its impossible to check and verify all radio situation in this country and in time when these commanders, they keep their radios in silence they awaited only command, and this command could not be intercepted or destroyed. B: This probably most important question I can think of to ask you, are there significant Russian military assets deployed in America today? L: Today compared to the Cuban crisis, of course not, its very limited number and Russian military personnel like military attache, Air Force, Navy, Army attache, they are located mostly in Washington and in New York in the United Nations, but there are a lot of intelligence agents or officers who are working here under civilian cover of diplomats, trade mission representatives, journalists, businessmen, and to say their exact number of course I cannot. B: You defected to our side, don‘t we have Colonel Lunevs in Russia right now, doing what you did over here? L: I think yes. B: Are they as effective as you and your teammates were? L: According information from Russia about this last spy expulsion exchange and previous arrests, Russian counter intelligence they made arrest of people only who was not absolutely careful in their intelligence business, so I think that masters of spy from American side are working in Russia very successfully. B: Lets talk about avoiding war with Russia, there are people to this day who think the Chinese communists would have never entered the Korean war if General McArthur had agreed to respect a buffer zone, say, not come closer than 40 miles to Manchuria, you know the Yalu river, McArthur had a North Korean army on the run, he ignored that, he wanted to go right to the Yalu river, turn the page, its now up to day, is it a good idea to push up NATO right up against the border of Russia, countries that used to be allies of the Soviet Union, Poland is now in NATO, Hungry is in NATO, Bulgaria... even Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, which were inside the Soviet Union since 1940, is this a good idea for America to be pressing that. L: Barry, thats very big question, because first of all, extension of NATO is playing in the favor of Russian nationalists which using NATO extension for explanation to people about aggressiveness of America and NATO countries, but from another side, how to protect people, how to protect new democracies, Poland, Czech republic, Hungary, just now Baltic states, Bulgaria, Rumania, they are looking for NATO support, they understand that their eastern neighbor, just now which is not so strong would restore ist power and they would be in permanent danger from Russia. B: You know, take Bulgaria, for example, which is not yet a member of NATO, you talked to me a proverb last time we were together in Russian, ?, whats that means, that a chicken is not a bird and Bulgaria is not a foreign country, can you imagine if Bulgaria joins NATO this is like pouring kerosene over dry grass of Russian nationalism and lighting a match. L: You are absolutely right, Bulgaria need to do so much to become a member of NATO, that I don‘t have any idea how many years they will have to prepare this country for the full

membership of NATO. B: Is our culture a factor in Russian military planning right now, I mean do they see us as coming apart, dissolving, Ancient Rome, sex, sodomy, depraved, deprived, degradation on the screen, in books, magazines, videos do they see American culture as our doing the job on ourselves, that they don‘t have to do, all they have to do is watch. L: Excellent question, really it been in time of former Soviet Union existence, when Soviet propaganda tried to show America exactly like you said, but during last ten years in Russia so many changes, and just now, actually non cultural country in the world that could be considering as a Russian federation now, and they have much more trouble in culture, in sex, in crime, in porno, in drugs, in everything, that they do not need to have somebody else to show whats bad is going in their culture, and you know that unfortunately during last ten years number of Russian population was declined dramatically and its going on about every years, about 1, 2 percent reduction of Russian population and officially they don‘t have anything else, but recognize that Russian population is in deep decline now. B: So, whatever is happening to us, is happening to them. L: I don‘t think that its happening to America so dangerously like its happen to Russia, because they absorb the worst from American culture to Russian culture and they didn‘t pay attention at the good points of American live and using only bad points for their development. B: Well I thought the Russian population, the Soviet population was somehow better, they used to look down their noses, at our culture and said nje kulture, they are uncultured people. L: Barry, I cannot agree with this, because Russian people for a long time, they really admired about Americans and American way of live and actually we knew about America much more than regular Americans know about America. B: So it was just a Soviet official line, that we were nje kulture, the Russian people never looked at us that way? L: No, no, how its possible to consider people as a non kulture, who created multiuse space ships, sent their people to the moon, to develop their country so much, that Soviet Union when it tried to reach level of American development was overheated and destroyed itself. B: Think hard in our closing minutes now, Col. Lunev, did you, do you think of anything important that you told the CIA, that you haven‘t told yet? L: Actually I tried to deliver to the representatives of American government the same information which we discuss with you now and before and of course we do have very limited time, I tell or try to tell much more and until now from time to time I have to tell to the government representatives, what‘s really going on in Russia. B: Do you see the trend, you know, when Whittaker Chambers left the communist party, he said I am going from the winning side to the losing side, that may have been too pessimistic, do you see America as the losing side today? L: I don‘t think so, because American people is a reasonable proud people and I believe in the future of Americans. B: Do you think the Soviet Union, now Russia, will as they say ? grab traction learn democracy, get rid of the mafia and be a proud, free country? L: Yes, but I cannot see when it will happen, I dream about it, but to believe that it will come in few days or minutes, it‘s non realistic. B: Colonel Lunev, you know if you have the right money and the right connections, you can

take a ride on an American submarine today, you can fly our fastest most modern aircraft, if you are Dennis Tito, you can even get yourself a ride on a space station, I wanna thank you for doing something that I don‘t think has ever been done before, because you are really as the top ranking military defector from the Soviet Union and Russia, you are the only one who could do it, thank you for letting us in not on a submarine ride or an airplane right or a spacestation, thanks for letting us in on a CIA top level tipitipitop secret briefing with Colonel Stanislav lunev, the highest ranking military spy, underline military, because the other spies could only deliever a pitiful fraction of what Colonel Lunev has given us, the highest ranking military spy ever to defect from Russia. Friend of Newsmax, Colonel Stanislav Lunev, I‘m Barry Farber.