MARIANO CHICHO FRMBOLI I have a question for you

English version
This interview was originally in Spanish (of course) and posted on Facebook by Pepa Palazon. It is being reposted here with Pepas permission and blessing and we thank all involved with this interview.

Saturday October 1, 2011 Question (Pepa): In a conversation with Milena Plebs in Tangauta, you defended a return to the embrace, to a more traditional style of tango. However, thats not what we see in your classes. Isnt this a bit of a contradiction? Answer (Chicho): I began teaching by chance, many years ago. I remember Fabin was teaching classes in the Galera del Tango and I was teaching in a theatre studio with a friend of mine you might know, Victoria Vieyra. We did theatre together and taught some classes there for the theatre group. I remember Fabin left on a trip and asked me to continue his classes while he was away from Argentina. I said yes (this is all by way of answering your question). I went on a Monday and the class was full of people. Fabin had a whole lot of people at the time. I introduced myself and said I would be continuing his classes and obviously the following Monday only two couples came Barely anyone! (laughter) But thats how we began, gradually. Then I was giving classes with Claudia Jakobsen. I remember at the time we would get together often with Gustavo and Fabin to work and think about tango as something experimental. We wanted to discover new things dynamics, movements. Movements especially. We tried to come up with the craziest steps The more technical part came later, the analysis The idea was to look for the strangest things and find a way to do them. I would be with Claudia, thinking, and then Id come up with something and pass it on in class without any idea of how to teach it. I would show it right away because I was eager, eager to immediately pass on what I came up with. I dont think that ever changed. When I teach a class I try to pass on everything Im going through with tango but not in a categorical way. I dont say Im doing tango nuevo but from a traditional mindset. No, Im teaching tango, how I relate to tango, to movements, to sensations, the way I react to the dynamics and my partners reaction, everything. If at the time there is something that I like or that provokes something in me, I teach it, but not in relation to whether it is new or traditional. Q: So theres no difference for you? A: No, there isnt. For me theres something more essential related to an aspect that few people, and Im talking about my tango generation, not about age, something that few people have managed to take from social tango, from those who came before us, because theyre not around anymore I think thats the difference, basically. For me tango is everything, whether its on the stage, the dance floor, social tango. Tango is all of this. In fact, when I go to a milonga to dance, I dont (quote, unquote) respect whether the milonga is more traditional or more tango nuevo or whatever. I dance how I dance and I think thats the most important. And my answer to Milena had to do with that. That conversation, two years ago, was centered on that issue. It was related to what I was feeling at the time and how I felt that an aspect of tango was being lost.

Ive discussed this with some of my friends as well. There are people I need to talk to about this because sometimes it makes me a bit sad. I love tango, I love it, I live for it and from it, and sometimes it strikes me to see that its lacking soul, lacking balls, that the relationship that should be there between a man and a woman just isnt there. Im talking about two years ago. It was all just exercise, all physical and no soul. Thats why I was talking about a return to the embrace, even if I dont always do that myself. I do it when I feel like it, otherwise I dance the way I dance, which everyone is familiar with, but I always do it with that essence. I am always working at something I love, which is this. Q: And does it bother you that they label you the forerunner of tango nuevo? A: At one point it bothered me a lot and I was very concerned with denying it. When people asked, Id come down hard on tango nuevo because, for me, tango nuevo doesnt exist. Tango is new every day. Yes, it bothered me. Today I dont care as much. I dont know if they are still saying that, I think thats died down, but these things dont bother me so much anymore. Q: (Bruno) How much of the responsibility do you think we have, those of us who, in some way, have the possibility of setting an example dancing? How much of the responsibility do we have for setting an example of what we see or dont see on the dance floor? Not only in terms of movements and rhythm but also with respect to the things sometimes older milongueros passed on to us? A: Some of the older milongueros used to say: tango is this thing or that thing, it is elegance or whatever, and you, the youth, are the future of tango. I always laughed at that but now thats what I think! Im not an old milonguero (laughter) but I think the same way. Its incredible. Think about this: now its great because were all young, there are a lot of people of all ages and thats great, but in my tango generation there were people dancing who were in their 60s and others who were in their 20s. The generation of those in their 40s and 50s didnt exist. There was a whole period in which tango was hidden, a little marginalized. There was a silence. For me, thats what happened with the music. We went from Piazzolla to Gotan Project, there was a gap, a period of no change. Today it is easier, I think, the fact that, since were still young, we can maintain an essence, in terms of the dance, that we can continue tango history. The way I see it, the history of tango goes up to a certain point and now another history is starting. There are people who have been dancing for three or four years, who began to dance the tango that is being danced today but who have no idea what was danced ten years ago, or seven, or even eight. In my opinion, in order to integrate or be completely inside tango one must look elsewhere, and that elsewhere is to move towards its essence, look a little further into the past. We cant look for the essence of tango in a milonga today because the milonga has changed a lot, quite a lot. I sound like an old man! (laughter) But its true. I remember that ten years ago when I entered a milonga, it was a little dense, the atmosphere was tense. You went in and everyone would look at you. Today you walk in and the first thing they say is Hey man, hows it going? and thats great. I think I was one of the first who broke a lot of the codes in tango, from ideology to clothing and many other things, and Im not against that. I think that maybe at the time, I was a little nuts. I was younger and didnt give a damn about anything, but fortunately thats what happened. All the same, I think that in trying to break with these structures or whatever, its always good to go back to that base. People who can or have the option of setting an example, need to be very responsible. Much more so than the next ones who come along behind and throw in a couple of colgadas and thats it. Im talking about responsibility as a teacher and a dancer. In this rush to give, both with Gustavo and also with Fabin, we forgot something very important, essential. I was coming up with things and putting them out there. I was waking up at night thinking about sequences and then passing them on the next day and I forgot about the other part, about tenderness (He gestures. Laughter.), about

the most intense part of tango. But thats okay, it was what it was. Thats how I see it today. Its still a great responsibility for those of us who have been doing this for a long time, teaching and giving, how we give and also for those who got it. To pass on this information from your center, from deep inside and not only in form alone. Q: (Ame) How much time do you spend in Buenos Aires and how much are you away? A: I spend very little time in Buenos Aires. Four months of the year, max. Q: And dont you feel that this changes the way you dance? Your dancing and the dance in general. What you were saying about the transformation of the milonga, isnt that related? A: Not in the least. Im going to say something very cheesy but tango is here deep inside(more than one sigh is heard, especially from the women). I arrived in Paris in 98 and I was alone and began to work with Celine Ruiz, Cecilia Gonzlez, Claudia Jakobsen. I was coming and going, working, like so many others. I didnt have Gustavo anymore or Fabin, who were like my mentors, lets say, who I absorbed tango from or where I directly experienced its evolution. They were my mentors at the time. Lucia came after a year and a half and we began to work, on our own. I can tell you, the greatest evolution in my dancing came by being in Paris, alone. The desire to dance, to create, to mix what I had been doing in theatre and music with dance, the analysis of the dance from the structure to the corporeal aspect and the dynamics, it was all part of that period. It was at that time that volcadas and colgadas were created -and with Eugenia as well- alone in Europe. Q: So what is it thats inside tango then? A: Its the essence, its strength, guts, blood, love, its the sharing, the constant creation of art, an aesthetic. All of this within the relationship between a man and a woman. Its respect for the dance, not breaking every limit but working with all those elements I just mentioned. I began to dance tango with Ricardo Barrios and Victoria Vieyra, my teachers. Ricki is a true tanguero. Hes also an actor, a director and studied at the conservatory, but hes a Tanguero. He was my first teacher. The second was Tet. They were guys who passed tango onto me directly, through the dance itself. We didnt even need to talk. I understood as soon as I saw. I had many teachers, so many, but they were the ones who had the greatest impact. Ricki was the first, Tet and Gustavo. Gustavo was the one who passed on the whole intellectual part of the dance and allowed me to see the creative possibilities more clearly. Id say that what I feel inside is related to a weightiness. Its something that characterizes porteos (people from Buenos Aires) in particular. Its something dense, a little sad, anguish, stress, all of the things that we go through every day thats what I think tango is. It gives a lot of weight and density to the dance. I feel that tango is something weighty. Its not light. Its dense, because the music pulls you in that direction, the lyrics, the movement, pull you towards that. Q: And if you dont give into that, theres no tango? A: Not for me. From the moment when you hear the music and you say I want to dance this, youre already inside this density. Q: (Marie) How do you feel when you see your clones? (laughter) (Uncle Cliff sent the same question in via email)

A: I dont judge them because, in reality, I was also a clone of other people at some point. For instance, I loved how Luis Solanas danced, like this, a little lopsided (laughter) I loved it! Later I saw Tet and I was fascinated. At the time I was working with Laurita and we were dancing very apilado (leaning against each other), like Tet. It was very fulfilling at the time. And when I danced, I really felt like Tet and when I met Gustavo, when I danced, I also thought I was Gustavo (laughter). Although from the outside it looked quite different because (and this has to do with my past in music and theatre) theres also a bit of interpretation mixed in. And that is whats most important because if youre just a clone, you might be a perfect copy, but theres nothing going on. If you have a bit of creativity, a sensitivity for other things, you move through that and I think that is whats interesting. If a person is going to copy someone else, it should be like a passage towards something else, because it is a search. In other words, maybe its me today, but then itll be something else which will lead that person, essentially, to themselves and that is great. What bothers me is when people remain in one place, they get to a point and just stay there and you can see it very clearly. And its not that theyre copying me that bothers me, its them, that theyre limited. All of the clones or the people copying, its a path that they have to go down, they absolutely have to go through that. That brings to mind something else, something related. Its very interesting. I danced with Eugenia for four years and the process that she went through from zero to the last year we danced together was significant, it was huge. I think that Eugenia (and this is my opinion) beyond the fact that she was a symbol or point of reference for all the women of that generation, because afterwards, obviously, clones of Eugenia began to appear thousands! (laughter) I think that with Eugenia, and with me because we were together, the role of the woman gained a different kind of importance within the dance, different than before. She gave the role a different presence. Before perhaps it was speed, sensuality, etc and Eugenia lent a certain importance to the kind of movement. When I began to see it in others, I understood what Eugenia had achieved, beyond whether they had cloned her or not. Even so, everyone continues to do that open and high boleo. No one has invented a new way of doing a boleo. Before boleos were always straight and now theyre high like what Eugenia did, but she has the speed, technique and the body to do it and not everyone has that. And no one else has come up with their own way of doing a boleo. Q: I swear Ive tried but havent found one (laughter) A: The search, in my opinion, is always valid. Its very important not to remain in one place. The day I feel Im not moving beyond a certain point, Ill leave it all. Ill go back to music or something because what has always attracted me about tango has been its lack of limits when it comes to creation. Q: (Ren) When you were talking before about the weightiness of tango within, how do you think it comes about? Is it something were born with, we learn or it grows day by day? A: When I dance Piazzolla, for instance, I have a kind of flash in my head, as if it were a video clip of a thousand images an hour of Buenos Aires. I have an overdose of Buenos Aires and that gives me the tango that comes out. Its different for everyone. And other orchestras give me other things. I always try no, I dont try, I just get right into what Im dancing but not only in terms of movement, I get right into the music Im dancing, whether it be DArienzo, Troilo, Pugliese or Biagi. I wasnt alive during that period, but I try to live it. Its as if I were breathing it in differently, but its automatic, its something inside me. I think that you can also work on it, by studying you can work on it, you can work with images. On having images of things that happened to you. Its also related to each persons life. Its Buenos Aires, its the person youre dancing with, or the life of the person, for instance, you were madly in love with and who is dancing next to you but youre dancing with someone else and youre feeling that shes dancing with someone else and at the same time youre dancing with someone else (laughter). There are a whole bunch of things that are going on all at the

same time but always related to what Buenos Aires is, the most emotional part. I think thats what it means to be involved in your dance. For me, the dance involves my emotions, my feelings, the music, the essence, the air. The music for me is the most important part Q: (Gonzalo) You were recently talking about Euge and boleos and that thats what you like about tango, the infinite search. Personally for me youre the person who forged a new path in tango, who transformed it and added a thousand things to it and my question is this: after all these years and the workshops youve given, isnt that a lot of pressure? I dont know if its for other people or for yourself as an artist, but dont you feel the need to stay out there at the forefront of things? A: (CHICHO) Speaking of Eugenia, Ill tell you something. Once I got annoyed with her. We were supposed to dance in La Viruta. This was several years ago. I never rehearse. Many people know that. If I have to do a choreography, which Ive done sometimes, I do rehearse (plus, I like the creative process of choreography), but I havent done many because I get bored quite quickly. What I like about tango is the spontaneity, dancing what I feel at the moment. But thats something personal. So since we hadnt rehearsed, Eugenia, a week before, said to meSorry, Euge! (laughter)she said, Chicho, arent we going to rehearse? And I said, No, Euge, were not going to rehearse. I dont feel like it. (Laughter.) And she said But Chicho, what are we going to show? And I look at her and said Now were going to rehearse even less (Laughter.) Because I dont have anything to show. I dance whats happening to me and thats what I always do, anywhere in the world. I mean, I dont feel pressure from anyone or from anywhere because Ive never felt it, thats part of the process and the path Ive chosen. When I began dancing tango, there were very few young people. A lot less than today. So, from the beginning, there was never much pressure. I dance and its always been the same: people applaud, they enjoy themselves, I enjoy myself. Its as simple as that. And people have grown too. I go somewhere, I have a good time, they have a good time and I leave, and thats how it is. I dont feel any kind of pressure even when I was dancing at a time when I could have felt it. You could interpret this as a kind of cockiness as well, because Ive danced alongside tango superstars and laughed my head off. I do what I like doing. First of all, Im not competing with anyone because that doesnt make any sense. Secondly, I dont feel like I have to prove anything to anyone. Nor do I feel the pressure of I created this so now I have to sustain this creation of mine. I dont feel any of that The other day, I was talking to a friend, in Europe, a real friend, and he said to me Chicho is this and Chicho is that, but what is Chicho really? I turned 41 last week. Chicho already is what he is. There are others now who have to do what I did. Im already there. Now Im going to keep doing what I do, but for myself. These days there are really accomplished people, great people who are very talented. So now the responsibility is all theirs. As for me well, Ive never really felt it. (Laughter.) The place I held for a time, the place everyone put me in, is not something that I feel like I need to hold on to today, or that Im above or below that. Basically Im still the same person as when I began to dance. I really feel that. If someone else comes along with something new, great, Ill go take their classes. I dont have a problem with that. Not at all. Q: (Mateo) From the inside, how do you see tango outside of Argentina? A: In Italy theyve really captured the spirit of the milonga. The habit of going all dressed up. The women really get into it. And so do the men. So they really reflect the idea of the milonga, the essence of it. But theyre missing the technical part and the dance. In some ways, they havent found a balance yet. I mean, theyve got the milonga down, but theyre missing the dance. And there are other places that have really captured the dance, but not the milonga. Thats more in the north of Europe. The technique and dynamics of the dance are prefect, but theyre missing milonga; theyre missing a rootedness, love, passion It varies a lot. In my opinion, its a question of time.

Q: So real tango is from Buenos Aires? A: From Buenos Aires and a few other places, but not from everywhere. Last night, for instance, I was in La Baldosa. There was no one there, but I felt that I was in a milonga. And sometimes, I can be at a festival in Europe and there are a thousand people there and I feel like going to my room and sleeping (laughs). Q: (Pepa) Can I ask a question related to this? Slava, from Moscow, sent in a question about festivals. It says: I see a lot of Argentine teachers invited to teach at festivals who, during the festivals milongas, stay seated the whole time, chatting and not dancing. Why? (Laughter and people asking, surprised: chatting on the internet?) A: I dont know about chatting (laughter). I dont have internet on my phone so I have no idea (laughter). Consider the fact that those of us who are travelling around the world from festival to festival get to a certain point where, for instance. You go to the first, right? You arrive, youre greeted and from the moment you arrive, they pick you up at the airport, the train station or wherever, you get into the car and they put tango on. (He gestures. Laughter.) And they start to ask you, And? Where have you been? What have you been up to? So you talk about what youve been doing. The first festival goes by and youre feeling good, you dance, you socialize with everyone The festival ends. Youre home for three days. You go to the second festival. You get to the airport and the first thing they do is they put tango on again and they start to ask you the same things. And that happens during seven, eight, nine, ten festivals and you get to a point where you cant take it anymore. So youre sitting there at the table at the festival like this (he gestures) because youve had it. I think that that might be why. Personally, I get really exhausted. In almost all of the festivals they ask you (Id almost say its a part of the contract) that you be present. In other words, you cant not go to the milonga. So you go, youre there, you drink a Coke, talk a bit and two or three hours go by. Sometimes you stay longer because the milonga is good and you leave at 5am, but other times you just stay for half an hour and then leave. I think its related to that, to tiredness, to the repetition of doing the same thing all the time. Its not because anything strange is going on. Q: (Marcela) Earlier you were talking about breaking certain limits. In your opinion, what are the limits for something to still be tango? A: What I mentioned earlier. First of all, respect for the dance. The essence in terms of the relationship to the person youre dancing with. Im not saying man and woman because these days, especially in Europe, there are many women dancing with women and men with men. That doesnt make a difference, as long as the dance code is respected. The music, connection, all of those elements, but above all, the idea of not breaking limits just to break them, just to do something crazy. There are many who put a headband on like this, put some crazy pants on, (he gestures, laughter) and they show off some weird steps. And, I tell you, Im not a traditionalist, but thats not cool with me. Q: Thats why Im asking. To what point is that tango or not? El Migue: Up to the headband! (Laughter.) A: (Chicho) I dont know how to explain it. Id have to explain it through movement. If it starts to be like contact improv, contemporary dance Because, in reality, there are few dancers who come to tango from other dances, but many tangueros who want to incorporate things from other dances into tango without knowing much about them. Its better to limit yourself to what you know, focus on that to the extreme or study something else to the extreme and then try to mix the two, trying to create something great from something that they both have in common. In other words, when you try to do something half and half, you just end up with something half-assed.

In my opinion, one of the major things that changed in tango is the code, in the sense that according to dance code, one person leads and the other follows, whether it be man-woman, woman-woman or man-man. Thats the code, those are the rules of the game. If thats broken, in my opinion its no longer tango. If the idea of who is leading who changes constantly or were both just kind of out there and then come back together, and so on, (he gestures, laughter) the essential code of tango has been broken. At a very basic level, one person leads and one follows, regardless of gender. In my opinion, that should be a rule. The person who decides to lead simply has to take the risk. Tango, in some places in Europe, has become a bit feminine I dont know if thats the word because the men dont lead, they go where the woman goes. Im not saying thats bad. Its just another code. Im not saying that you have to grab the woman and be macho, because thats not it either I remember that once I heard an interview with Cecilia Troncoso and she said, I dont understand the people, these days, who dance anyone with just anyone. I love being a woman. I love dancing within my role in tango and following the guy who is leading me. In other words, if each person takes on a role, I think thats what maintains the essence of what we were talking about before. If were talking about a choreography, thats another thing. But in terms of social dance, the milonga, that should be respected. Q: (Daniel) Mariano, considering the milonga mileage that you have, when you go to the dance salon now, what do you feel more, nostalgia or hope? A: In reality, a mix of both things. I feel nostalgia because I remember that before, tango wasnt a club, it was a family. We used to go to Parakultural or to Chacabuco, and it was like being in a family. I feel nostalgic about that spirit. Today its more a club where you go and people get together. Its more relaxed. Its good because its more modern, but maybe because I feel a bit nostalgic, Im also a bit hopeful. Or vice versa. I dont feel pessimistic about tango. Its always possible to continue creating and improving. I always feel its a shame when a pair of dancers are given an opportunity, either in a milonga in Buenos Aires or outside of the country, and they dont take advantage of that opportunity. That annoys me. These days, for instance, something that we didnt see happening before everyone dances in all the milongas, every day, every month of the year. There are exhibitions all over the world, in all the milongas, all the time and, sometimes, there are couples who dance in two or three milongas in the same month. I think that dancing in a milonga is a great opportunity to show something truly excellent. And the same goes for outside the country. The idea of travelling with tango is something else, pulling something together to travel. But if youre going to put something together, create something! Create some kind of project, because otherwise, you go there, you do two or three jobs and then you never return to Europe. I think that thats a lack of respect for the dance itself. I feel that if youre given an opportunity, you should take complete advantage of it. Get together with a girl, practice, put something together, think about what you want to do in your classes so that youre not simply out there offering a class with a crazy name, Tango Figures 2011, for instance. Come up with some kind of didactic concept or method, something thats yours, that you create, that you can offer. I see a lot of photos, for example, of tangueros who advertise technique x or y, and then you dance with them and they dont reflect what you see on the flier. They dont have the same clothes or the same presence or the same dance as on the flier. I think that needs to be respected a bit more. I understand that theres a hunger (laughter), that its all the same, but I think it can be done better. Im not pessimistic but I think that more effort needs to go into that. Q: (Cornelia) I have a question regarding what you were saying about Europe, how sometimes one person leads and the other doesnt follow. You also mentioned that Eugenia fundamentally changed the womans role. So my question is, how can the woman take on a more significant role without breaking the dance code? That wasnt very clear to me

A: If you really believe in the role youre taking on in tango, you can do whatever you want. Eugenia never broke with that code. She transformed it, maintaining the role and her own essence. She didnt need to change that. Q: But what I wanted to know was, what is that new role? A: Visually? Q: No, not only visually. A: Ok, Ill try to answer more or less what I think youre asking. Theres a change taking place with respect to depth in the quality and the sensitivity of movement. The communication that exists today is much deeper than what was taking place ten years ago. Ten years ago there wasnt much, technically speaking: the lead and how to follow. Today, in my opinion, were at an ideal point in terms of sensitivity in the mans role and in the womans role, in terms of precision in the lead without being violent or aggressive and in terms of the rapid and dynamic response of the woman to what the man proposes. I think that in terms of technique, these days that aspect is very strongly established. Thats what happened to me with Eugenia, and now with Juana, who is as fast as a plane and, in some ways, a little more evolved in what she does than Eugenia was; in what she does with me, I mean. Theres a certain speed in the technique, based on communication and sensitivity, a much better perception of the lead. The better that is, the closer one is to other, the faster things can happen. Obviously, if you have a very precise technique and you develop the artistic side of the question, you can put more of yourself into it. If I, for instance, lead Eugenia (or Juana) in a simple turn, shes already understood from the very first moment that I want a turn so she can add something else if she wishes. If shes sharp and has the artistic capability to interpret that in a different way, to perceive it quickly, then thats it. Because shes listening to me, shes reacting and on top of that, shes interpreting and shes dancing, shes adding something of her own, whether its new or not. Thats what happened to me with Eugenia. The capacity she has or Juana has, or many women today have, because there are many women whose perception of the lead is very delicate and strong is related to that. Im not talking about anticipation. Its a question of perception and sensitivity. In my opinion, thats the point, and Eugenia was one of the first women I felt that with. Before, with Lucia, everything was more led. With Eugenia, it began to be about suggesting. I would suggest a movement and there was a response. With Juana, I barely need to lead anything (laughter) because we understand each other perfectly, which is taking things a step further. I dont know what comes after that. Q: (El Chino) Have you always danced what you felt or at some point did form or technique take precedence over the creative aspect? What happens with me is that I have trouble dancing what I feel and I end up concentrating on form. A: With technique you can make movements and sometimes the movements lead you to the technique. And the majority of the techniques we use these days come from movements, right? The technique for rebounds (rebotes) gives you boleos, for instance. Or blocking (bloqueo) gives you a change of dynamics. I think that its a give-and-take. You start there and return there. In my opinion, you have to have both. You have to be able to imagine crazy things and try to reproduce them through techniques or look at the moves and try to find a technique in order to make them work. Its a constant back-and-forth. Sometimes its frustrating. Ive often thought up and imagined things that, in the end, I couldnt do because my body wont allow me to. I try a thousand things but I cant make it work. So I have to move on to something else. Q: (Pepa) And improvising, at any point did you ever come up empty-handed?

A: Yes, many times. But most of the time, its been related to what I mentioned earlier; when pleasure becomes work, I get stuck. When its something Im doing all the time and I have to do it because I have to do it, while Im out dancing, Im thinking up my shopping list for the next day at the supermarket. (Laughter.) Thats when I need to stop because if not, I lose the pleasure of dancing. But that is something that is more work-related than social. Q: (Pepa) Heres a question Ral Navalpotro sent from Spain. With the hindsight you have from all the years in this career, if you could go back, would you change anything? And if so, what? A: No, I dont think I would change anything. Im happy with what Ive done and how. Q: (Ame) My question is related to what you were saying about Juanas transformation. Dont you think that there was a change in you, or in the role of the man, so that the woman could occupy that space? A: I think that every time I dance with a new person (and Mariana is here), I adapt to the person Im dancing with. I dont try to bring the person to me. In articles like the one I did with Milena, I realized (and I say this in the most humble way possible) that what I say sometimes influences a lot of people, but, well, Ill tell you this because its funny. Im in Europe, sitting in a milonga, at a festival and some guy goes by doing really crazy things. But when he gets to my table, he really embraces his partner as he goes by (laughter), trying to show me that he really can dance tango and thats fine, its funny. (Laughter.) And its true what I said in Milenas article that for me, the embrace is really important. I have a friend in Sweden, Ellin I dont know if you know her, shes covered in tattoos, shes really great and once I went to visit her. She invited me to a class. She was giving classes with Riku, a DJ. So I went to the class. It was an intermediate class and I stood there watching. And at one point, near the beginning of the class, they spoke to the students in Swedish. I dont understand a word of Swedish (laughter) but I can see that they all begin to embrace each other. Not all together, I mean in pairs, but they are really embracing, hugging each other I didnt understand a word, but it was crazy! Then there was total silence. She walked around and looked at everyone, and so did Riku, and at the same time I was looking at them and I couldnt believe it. It was fantastic! They cut straight to the chase! (Laughter.) After that, the class had a different energy. I think that its very important to return to that feeling of togetherness, because its really enjoyable. When I took my first tango class, in Cristina Banegas studio with Victoria and Ricky, Victoria said to me, Im starting a tango class, come along! And I said to her, Tango, are you insane? I was a drummer back then, nothing to do with tango. (Laughter.) She was offended so I said Ok, fine, Ill go. I went on a Saturday and in the theatre group (you already put this up on facebook), there was a girl that I liked a lot. Her name was Lali, Laura, and she showed up that day too! (He gestures. Laughter. First they explained the basic step to me and to the girls separately, like they used to do. And then we were put together again and as luck would have it (because Victoria knew), I was put with Lali. And I took her and was going to embrace her, but I didnt even know how to do that! What a disaster! And when I did embrace her (he gestures; laughter) I cant remember if I started to shake, but I do remember that it was enjoyable in every sense. It was a pleasure to be with her. And from that moment on, I never stopped dancing tango. And from that moment, Im constantly looking for that feeling. Every time I invite someone to dance, I try to go back to that point, to that moment of shyness and surrender, a whole mix of wonderful feelings. Q: (El Chino) And you havent considered cutting straight to the chase yourself, giving beginner classes, going back to something more traditional? A: The problem is that Im not living here. If I were living here, I have a lot of ideas about what I could do. There are a ton of things Id love to do. But Im not here and thats a very personal choice. Its a choice I made years

ago, to stay in Europe and make this my living, not be in a single place, to travel. And sometimes thats a limitation in terms of what you might want to do. I would love to be able to live in a single place, to create a school, begin from zero and create a million things, but its a question of time. Maybe Ill do that in the future. I dont know. This is what Im doing for the time being. But the truth is that I would love to do it and not only with beginners, because there are many intermediate dancers who have lots that needs to be fixed. (Laughter.) Q: (Greta) Dont you think that these days the change taking place is a return to something more traditional? A: Involution. Q: as if there were a limit we cant surpass A: We can. What happens is that a lot of people who have gotten to that limit are maybe limited themselves in some way, technically, artistically or creatively. I believe that its always possible to go further. Q: But Im talking about staying within the limits of what tango is. A: In my view, tango hasnt yet been fully explored in artistic terms, in terms of the show, in terms of expanding what tango is for the world, for instance. Because the dominant image of tango worldwide is a still the image of a guy in a suit. Thats what the world sees. I would love to say that that aspect of tango has changed and we can give it a new image, not the tanguero-rapper, but something new in tango which hasnt been developed yet. Q: (Ame) And what do you imagine? A: Thats what I was saying before. First of all, I dont know how I imagine it. Secondly, Im not sure thats my goal. Thirdly, Im not sure Im the person to do it. I think that there is a ton of information and sensations, of things from daily life that could lead to something really new in tango, artistically speaking. And Im talking about the artistic development of tango, not about the milonga. In the milonga, I think the return to the embrace is necessary, a connection with the other person, the enjoyment. But artistically speaking, in my opinion, were virgins. I still havent seen a show that has really shocked me. There was one, many years ago that did. It really blew my mind. It was by a French choreographer, Catherine Berbessou. I worked with her on the last show that I did. But the one before that, Valser, I remember arriving at the theatre in the suburbs of Paris and Federico, Catherines husband, who is Argentine, said to me You know how the show is, right? And I said, No, I have no idea. He said So sit in the ninth row or beyond. But why? And he said Youll see. So the curtain opened and the stage was covered in dirt up to here (he gestures) and the whole show was on top of the dirt and everyone was barefoot. It was the most original show I have ever seen, and this was ten years ago. There are a ton of things that can be done, artistically speaking, and with new techniques and everything. Q: And if the man can take his suit off, can the woman take her heels off? A: She can come out naked, as far as Im concerned! (Laughter.) Its like I said at the beginning, its a question of maintaining the dance code. Its a question of preserving what we know as tango, without turning it into contemporary dance. I dont care whether you take off your heels, whether you dance barefoot or in sneakers. Thats not important. Q: (Rodrigo) My question is about the future and whether youre considering doing a show, like you mentioned. Is that in your plans? A: I dream about it. But its complicated. Thats the same question El Chino asked me. Id love to be here and do a thousand things, because I see, I feel and I know that there are great people here, very talented people who could

go really far. But in order to do that, Id have to live here and thats something that Ill leave for further down the road. Because what we were saying about the interview I did two years ago, about the embrace, the essence of tango, the dance code as a teacher, I feel responsible to some degree. Its what I was saying at the beginning. I used to show these long sequences, the whole shebang, and see who could do it. More than ten years have gone by since then. Ive come a long way in terms of teaching as well. Ive condensed all of that information until I found the points that are really interesting in terms of the dance. Today Im more focused on my teaching, trying to convey what I wasnt able to back then. But the return to the past that Im recommending to everyone, also applies to me, so that I can contribute something that is essentially more valuable. Just like with the show, its always something thats on my mind. Its basically just a question of time. But if I were to do a show, I dont think I would dance in it. Id like to do something more conceptual myself and not dance. Q: (Bruno) I wanted to ask you, where do you see yourself in 20 years? A: The truth is that I dont have any idea because with the satisfaction that I used to get from acting or playing music, and that I now get from dancing, I always live every day to the fullest. If you had asked me 20 years ago where Id see myself today, I never would have imagined myself here. I dont know what my future will look like. I know Ill be dancing and maybe youll find me in some tiny milonga in Flores or Villa Urquiza, if you see me at all in the milongas. Or maybe not. I have no idea. Q: I ask because sometimes one thinks about what theyd like to do or what the next step will be. Youve done theatre, music, dance. Do you think youll end up combining them all? A: I dont know. In fact, Ive never stopped playing. Im still constantly making music. I should be able to combine it someday with acting, but if not acting, then maybe directing. I cant see myself in something that isnt artistic. Thats for sure. Because Ill never stop playing music, and Ive been dancing tango for 18 years and havent missed a day. These are things I know Ill never stop doing. Q: (Marie) Im curious about what you do when youre not dancing, if you like to read, go to the movies, listen to some other type of music A: I only listen to tango in milongas or when Im working. I dont ever just listen to tango. I really like being able to feel that its always the first time that Im dancing. I know people who get up at 7am listening to milonga. Im not like that. I love tango and I love discovering it every day. Thats just how I am. But I listen to other kinds of music. I like drawing, playing music. When Im in Cagliari, I go to the beach and see friends. I do things that have nothing to do with tango, so I can get away from it a little. Otherwise I would burn out. Q: And what do you listen to? A: Everything from classical music to Prince, and even AC/DC. Q: Cumbia! (Laughter.) A: As long as its good music, its fine. I can listen to anything. I love finding new things as well. I buy a lot of cds. I like having the case and everything so I dont download anything. I think that tango comes to me first through the music. For me, music is an essential part of life. Without music, we would die. I always have to have music, always. I like to draw, Im always drawing listening to music. (Laughter.) Q: (Per) In your opinion, what is musicality in dance?

A: Musicality in dance? There are a lot of titles and names in tango that use this term in festivals and classes just for marketing purposes. For instance, rhythmic play, this or that combination or sequence. It has a lot to do with what the organizer needs in order to sell a class, to get people to come. Luca and I were among the first to offer musicality classes, many years ago. Its related to musical analysis, from rhythm to phrasing. I think that we came up with a generalized name for what we wanted to work on and now everyone talks about musicality. For me, its rhythmic analysis more than anything, because musical analysis is more difficult. I mean, rhythm is more natural for people. Getting into phrasing, or musical melodies or harmonies is more complicated because not everyone knows music. Focusing on something more basic like a rhythm, double time, quarter time, playing with syncopation from a rhythmic perspective is much easier than getting into intellectual questions of how to write music and so on. So when we gave it that name, it was because we were working with exactly that, with the subdivision of beats, exploring off-beats. We were putting all of that material in a class and we called it musicality. I guess we could have called it rhythm, but we used musicality and it sold. (Laughter.) Q: (Guille) When I see you dance, I see music, you and your partner, all in one. Id like to know how you do it. (Laughter.) How do you manage to be so connected to all three things at once? A: Theres this really great thing that is both an advantage and a disadvantage at the same time: from the time I began dancing, or from the time anyone begins dancing, to now, we always listen to the same tangos. We listen to all the same tangos our whole lives. We listen to the same orchestra, the same singer. Sometimes some half crazy DJ comes up with the same orchestra, the same tango, but with a singer who sings in German or French. (Laughter.) But its always the same tango. And tango has a fixed musical structure. Its always the same. Im not going to explain it because, first of all, I dont know that much about it. I just understand it, inside me. And thats because I played drums in a lot of groups before dancing tango. When you play in a group, whether its ska, heavy metal, reggae or rock and roll, all of the tunes have a musical structure to follow. You can follow it or you can play with it, but the structure is always there. You have the introduction, the verse, the chorus, another introduction with a solo theres a path through every tune. They all have a musical structure. Tango has a musical structure that is always the same. For instance, if you listen to DArienzo, he always has the same musical structure in all of his tangos. And its the same for Troilo, the old Troilo, from the 40s. There are moments and places where youre always going to step, simply because the music takes you there. So you know whats coming. That comes from listening and listening. Really listening. So its like you already know the tango, not only the verse, but whats coming next. For instance, with Pugliese, you already know where itll go because in Pugliese, you always have the same thing. You have a slow introduction, it goes up-up-up, down-down-down and then boom, it takes off. And all of the tangos are the same. So once you get used to that, if you have all of the elements, technically speaking, its as if youve been handed a palette. You pick up the brush and all you have to do is paint. You can say, for instance, I have four boleos, two sacadas and two turns, one to the left and one to the right. How can I paint them into this tune? And obviously you also have walking, as well. So I say to myself: ok, this tango has a short introduction, the verse (thats not sung), then a little bridge, then the sung part (usually only one verse is sung, not both, although the second verse is always there, even if its not sung) and then the ending. If you already know that, if you already know the structure, you create your own path through the song. Improvisation comes more from visualizing what is going on, not so much from simple physical spontaneity. Whats more, you have the added responsibility of leading someone. Youre leading the person youre dancing with and that person has to feel sure of you. Your lead has to communicate confidence. I know the tangos, and so do you. We all know them. Its just a question of visualizing them.

Q: but is this a kind of spiritual state for you? A: No, no. Its natural. Since I began dancing, Ive never stopped, because for me its not just about studying, but about training. Its not just rehearsing, its really a kind of training. You dance and dance and dance. And if it doesnt work? Repeat it and repeat it, over and over. So you get to a point where you dont have to pay so much attention to the movement because the movement happens on its own. I think about my partner being comfortable and about whats coming up in the music. The movement is like grabbing a glass. Its a reflex, because youve already mastered it. Thats what training gives you. You know how to lead a boleo. Its in your body. Its not a question of connecting with some higher power. (Laughter.) So you can concentrate on the music and not the movement. Thats the main point of connection for me, like an overall harmony: your partner, the music, the technique, the dynamics. When you get onto the dance floor and you do steps 1, 2, 3 of the basic, youre not thinking about whether youre going to lead it or not, or whether youre leading a forward ocho or back ocho. You have to feel the same about a gancho or a boleo, or ten ganchos, ten boleos, ten sacadas, the same, with the same ease. Its a question of training, its work. Pepa: We only have time for one last question. Q: (Cornelia) You said that because of the embrace, youve never stopped dancing tango, but in your exhibitions, or at least the ones Ive seen, youve always danced in open embrace. Is there a division for you? You dance open in the exhibition because people are watching and in the milonga, where its more intimate, you close the embrace? Is that it? A: Thats it. Its as simple as that. When youre dancing in an exhibition, youre dancing to show, youre dancing so that people can see you. When youre in the milonga youre dancing for yourself, and thats different. In an exhibition, you have to show at least something. If friends or other people go to see you, its like a gift. We give our dance to you. Q: (Pepa) Were going to end with a quick question drill. You wont have time to think. Just answer the first thing that comes to mind. Ready? A: Ok. Q: By day or by night? A: By night. Q: Open or closed embrace? (Laughter.) A: Both. Q: Briefs or boxers? (Laughter.) A: Long. Q:Improv or choreo? A:More improv. Q: Top or bottom? (Laughter.) A: Side. (More laughter.)

Q: Pugliese or Piazzolla? A: Oof Piazzolla Q: Blonde or brunette? A: Brunette. Q: Spinetta or Los Vagos? A: (He laughs.) Damn girl! Spinetta, Spinetta. Q: Los Vagos was a group he was in. Ill continue. Angel or demon? A: Demon. Q: De Niro or Darn? A: De Niro! Q: After these questions, do you love me or hate me? A: Love you. Q: You too. Thanks everyone!!!

Translation: Rebecca Wolpin