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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES: GRADY NELSON, vs. STATE OF FLORIDA,

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE 11TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, IN AND FOR MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. F05-00846

Plaintiff, REDACTED TESTIMONY MARVIN DUNN, PhD

Defendant. ------------------------------------/ Gerstein Justice Building Miami, Florida November 22, 2010

The above-entitled case came on for hearing before the Honorable JACQUELINE HOGAN-SCOLA, as Judge of the Circuit Court, in court pursuant to notice.

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OFFICE OF THE STATE ATTORNEY KATHERINE FERNANDEZ-RUNDLE BY: ABBE RIFKIN, ASA -AND- HILLAH MENDEZ, ASA -AND- JOEL ROSENBLATT, ASA FOR THE DEFENDANT: TERENCE LENAMON, ESQUIRE -AND-DAVID MARKUS, ESQUIRE

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 D-U-N-N. name.

MONDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2010, 9:49 A.M. (The following proceedings are a redacted version of the testimony of Marvin Dunn, PhD, omitting objections, rulings and sidebars at the request of the ordering party). MR. LENAMON: Judge, the defense would call Dr. Marvin Dunn. THE COURT: All right. Dr. Dunn. Raise your right hand and be sworn or affirmed. MARVIN DUNN, PHD., called as a witness on behalf of the Defense having been duly sworn by the Cler , was examined and testified as follows: THE WITNESS: I do. THE COURT: You can ma e yourself as comfortable as possible in the witness stand. Address all comments to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury over to your right. Please eep your voice up.

And when you are ready, state and spell your full

THE WITNESS: My name is Marvin Dunn, M-A-R-V-I-N,

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LENAMON: Q Good morning, Dr. Dunn. Would you introduce

yourself to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury.

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Good morning. My name is Marvin Dunn. I'm a

retired professor from FIU, and at the end my career of 35 years at FIU, I was chairman of the psychology department when I retired three years ago. Q Dr. Dunn, could you describe for the jury

your educational bac ground, please. A I was graduated from high school early in the 11th

grade. I was educated in public schools of Florida. In 1957 I was admitted to Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. I received a Bachelor's degree from Morehouse College. I then became a Naval officer, served seven years in the Navy. I served on aircraft carriers during that time. I received my Master's degree from Roosevelt University in Chicago while I was in the Service. When I left the Service, I entered the University of Tennessee at Knoxville in the doctoral program in psychology.

in developmental psychology and clinical psychology. My certification when I graduated was considered community psychology. In community psychology, we ta e a -- we learn about clinical psychology and social psychology and try to understand how the community and things outside the person

I was trained in school psychology, which included wor

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impact behavior.

what did you do? A My first job was in the Miami-Dade County Public

School System as a school psychologist in what we'll call Title 1 schools. These were schools that tended to have a large proportion of poor students. My first job was at Tuc er Elementary School in Coconut Grove. I wor ed for about a year, year and a half. Q A What year was that, Doctor? 1971 to 1972 basically. Then I was also at Drew

Middle School in Liberty City for about a school term. I then -- FIU opened in 1972, I joined the faculty as a psychology professor.

University as a professor in psychology? A Q 34 years. And what was whatever the position you ultimately

obtained at the university? A Well, actually at one point I was an associate

vice-president at the university, and then I returned by my choice to the department, where I retired as chairman. Q During the period of time as a professor of

psychology, prior to that and during that tenure did you conduct any independent studies involving the clinical

How long did you wor

O ay. Doctor, after you finished your education,

at the Ford International

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psychology that you were practicing in? A Q Studies, oh, yes. Could you describe some of those studies to the

Court, to the jury?

poverty, race, environmental factors, crowding, things of that sort, on behavior. I published studies dealing with dysfunctional familiars, juvenile crime. I did an in-depth study -- the first study I did was of a murder, quadruple murder that too place in Miami-Dade

from Liberty City who murdered four people in one night with a screwdriver. That case enticed me because I couldn't imagine -- this child was 15 when this happened. I was intrigued by the

with his hands. So, it was the first case that drew me into the JAB housing project where I did an in-depth study of his family, published an article in the Herald on the case, became involved with the boy's mother in terms of trying to find out more about the neighbor impacts on him as he was coming

something li e 900 years; spared only because of his age from the death penalty.

up. He was ultimately convicted, I thin

fact that a boy of 15 could

ill four people in one night

sentenced to

County 1979 and 1978, involving a young man who was blac

Yes. Most of my wor

dealt with the impact of

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And I went to the home, met the mother, met several neighbors, did a neighborhood study involved in the project and found out that within just a few yards of where this young man lived there were several other families that had young men on death row or in prison for serious assault and other crimes of that sort. So the issue of to what extent does environment impact a person's li elihood to become involved in a crime became of interest to me.

very well, in fact, too her to death row -- I'm sorry -- to prison, to Rayford to see her son on one occasion. And ultimately, in that particular case it ended with him being illed in an attempt to escape from prison. Q Now, Doctor, through the course of your studies

have you focused on this particular area in conjunction with individuals from impoverished communities and different bac grounds?

A Q

I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question.

studies over your career? A Q Oh, yes. Yes. Many of them over the years. Have you published any written material regarding

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written in journals and stuff li e that?

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boo s that you have written or articles that you have

Have you continued to conduct those

And in this particular case, I got to

now the mother

ind of

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And then I published a number of articles for the

Post, Los Angeles Times; most of those articles dealing with race issues, juvenile issues, things of that sort. Q And I'm showing you --

(Omission).

purchase? A Q Yes, sir. 1997 it was published. And can you describe briefly what you wrote about?

(Omission). THE COURT: Well, what's the topic just generally? THE WITNESS: It dealt with the presence of blac s in Miami-Dade County over a long period of time. It dealt

neighborhoods; Coconut Grove, Liberty City, Opa-Loc a, et cetera, up through the 1980s. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Now, Doctor, were you hired in this case to assist

the defense in preparation for the penalty phase? A Yes.

with in-depth studies of some of the neighborhoods. Blac

Was your boo

published openly for anyone to

Herald, the Miami News, the New Yor

1980s, I thin .

traced the presence blac s from the 1600s to roughly the

written on the history of blac s in Miami-Dade County that

Times, the Washington

Yes. I wrote a boo on -- in fact, the first boo

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that?

Can you tell the jury how you became involved in

dealing with this case and invited me to participate as a mitigating witness in this case. THE COURT: I'm sorry, participate what? THE WITNESS: To participate in this case as providing mitigating circumstances, if there were any, in this particular case. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Now, Doctor, previous to you getting involved in

this case, had you been hired before and requested to provide mitigating circumstances on other cases? A Yes, a few other cases. I'd say over the last ten

years, I may have been involved in as many as maybe seven or eight cases over ten years or so. Q Have you always been able to provide the defense

with mitigation? (Omission). Q this case? A I was provided the defendant's military record. I Now, Doctor, what records were you provided in

was provided a timeline for his life. I was provided transcripts of testimony from police officers in this case. I was provided certain depositions in this case,

Your office as ed me to examine some records

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testimony of Mr. Nelson's aunt in a previous incident, other documents that I can't recall at the moment, but a very

I'm sorry, I also reviewed some of the testimony or depositions of some of the other expert witnesses. Q Were you provided the actual statement of the

defendant's confession in this case? A Yes. I was provided videotape and a written, I

believe, summary. Q Did you review that in conjunction with your

preparation for your testimony today? A Q Yes, I did. Were you provided access to Mr. Nelson to

interview him? A Q A Q I'm sorry?

Several times. Could you describe to the jury your meetings with

him and to what extent you met with him? A Well, I met with him probably at least a dozen

times, maybe more. The purpose of the meetings was for me to get to now more about this person to understand what may have motivated this behavior. I wanted to now particularly as much as I could find out about his environment growing up.

large stac

of documents.

Did you spea

with Mr. Nelson?

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I was particularly interested in his early years between ages one and four. I was interested in his mother and his father, and I was interested in essentially how he grew up and the circumstances that he faced as he grew up. Q How much experience did you have dealing with

dysfunctional families? A Well, at one point I founded a high school for

difficult students. I was principal of that school for over 15 years. The students who came to us were students who were failing in the Dade County school system. Most of them had absentee problems, acting out problems, and I would did say perhaps 70 percent of them or more came from families that were bro en families. Most of those were families in which the fathers had abandoned the families. Some of them were from foster homes. All of them were in trouble, otherwise they would not have been in our school, and my job was to interview them and interview their families, get to now their needs, help to plan educational programs for them, to provide counseling, if possible, and try to help them get out of school with a diploma. And our school was one of the best alternative high

I wanted to now a lot of about his family situation.

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schools in the state. Our graduation record with those students exceeded that of most of the Dade County Public Schools. Q A Q A Have you dealt with abandoned children? Yes, sir. How would you define abandoned children? A child who was abandoned or left by his or her

mother or father. Q And have you researched the study that

consistencies or inconsistencies in the behavior of abandoned children? A Q Yes. And what conclusions have you reached generally

about abandoned children? A Well, most abandoned children manage to survive

being abandoned. Most children who have been abandoned by their fathers manage to survive being abandoned by their fathers. That doesn't mean they don't have problems. A lot of the young men as they evolve have trouble with discipline, boundaries, anger management, completing tas s. They require a substitute father, someone li e a coach or a principal or teacher who steps in and provides a male figure for them.

But most

ids manage to get over that, particularly if

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a grandmother steps in or someone else comes in and raises the child. With the abandonment of mothers, it's a different situation. Q A Why is it a different situation, Doctor? Maternal abandonment hurts in a way that is very,

very difficult to get over. The mother is supposed to be the one who is there when no one else is there. Children who have been given up by their mothers, even as grown people, don't get over it. They remember the pain, it's a lifelong impact on everybody, even those fol s who manage to grow up and live with somebody else and even have children of their own, the pain of having been given up by a mother has never really left the person.

happens beyond her ability to be with the child, that's different. The cases that present the most difficulty of those in which the mother willingly gives up the child or the child is ta en away from the mother because of the mother's inability to raise the child. When this happens with very young children, say ages one to four or one to six, the impact can be devastating. Q How would you describe behaviors of someone that

you've wor ed with who have experienced maternal abandon?

If the mother leaves because she's

illed or something

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I have seen certain consistencies in cases that

are left by their mothers, particularly boys. They tend to be angry. They tend to have impulse problems. They tend to have difficulties with authority figures. They have a lot of trouble loving anybody. It is as if they never develop the primary love relationship between mother and child, every other relationship is potentially a difficult one for them. It's as if the very first bonding people ma e with their mothers when that doesn't go right, there are developmental problems in terms of their emotional and psychological development following that, that's very difficult for most people to get beyond. If. You have someone who has other inds of problems on top of that, intellectual problems or physical problems, temperamental problems, then you have a very serious situation. Q Now, Doctor, you have researched and studied

developmental disorders. Can you tell the jury what a developmental disorder is? (Omission). Q A Q Go ahead, Doctor. Could you restate the question? Could you explain to the jury what a developmental

disorder is?

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even en utero, before they are born. If you loo at how people change from the time they are born until the time they die. Developmental psychologists loo at changes over life, particularly major stages of life li e entering school, marriage, divorce, wor , all of those benchmar s in life presents challenges. And developmental psychologists loo at how people change over time. Particularly as they encounter things in the environment that are difficult or that might disrupt that normal development, such as abandonment or trauma, things of that sort. Q A What is emotional disorder? Emotional disorder occurs when a person has had

some sort of traumatic experience. Something damaging, something that's difficult for them to get over that follows them through life, that impacts other things they do following that event.

point of the person's life, even in the first two or three years of life. Q disorder? A Attachment disorder happens when a child does not Now, is attachment disorder a developmental

And the event can go way, way bac

to they earliest

moment -- actually developmental psychology goes bac

Yes. If you loo

at how children develop from the to

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particularly with the mother. Children who don't attach themselves to the mother have difficulty with attaching themselves to anything else. There are certain behaviors that evolve with people who have attachment disorders and the most -THE COURT: Attention or de? THE WITNESS: Attachment. THE COURT: Attachment. THE WITNESS: Attachment disorders. And one of

disorders is that people who surfer that have a lot of trouble maintaining relationships over the course of their lives. BY MR. LENAMON: Q A Now, based on -I'm sorry. May I just add one other thing to

that, please? Q A Sure.

of Russia in children who were raised in orphanages. And these were children who had everything they needed in terms of physical care, food, shelter, medical care, but they are raised in orphanages. They spent most of their early time in cribs without

A lot of the wor

the things we

ma e the proper attachment of bonding with the parent,

now most consistently about attachment

on attachment disorder came out

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anybody touching them or holding them or having contact with them as a mother would. And these children were studied, some of them were fine over time, but many of them developed emotional problems even into adulthood. And among those problems that they developed was trouble attaching themselves to anybody else. What these studies showed was that children who were not held, who did not have tactile stimulation from anybody, but particularly from the mother have emotional deficits that are very difficult to mitigate or get over. Q Now, you were provided information

about Mr. Nelson witnessing some sexual violence involving his sister? A Q Yes. And you were provided some information about facts

involving -(Omission). Q You were provided some information about

Mr. Nelson's mother having a problem with alcohol? A Q That's correct. Do you hypothesis at all about the relationship

his sister had in relation to raising Grady Nelson at a very young age. A His sister?

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Q A Q

His sister who died. I'm sorry, please restate the question. Do you have an opinion based on the information

that you were provided, the role that his sister played in raising Grady Nelson up to the point that she died?

support that he needed that his mother did not provide for him.

scene? A That's a term in psychology in which a child

witnesses the parents having sex. Very much studied in

never leaves a child.

in the same bedroom with them other than modesty. A child who witnesses his parents having sex have experience regarding the primal scene. (Omission). Q Do you have an opinion as to -- you testified that

Grady Nelson witnessed -- the information that you were provided, that Grady Nelson witnessed his sister having sexual relations with somebody, either forced or unforced? A That's correct, yes.

There's a reason why parents don't let the

psychology because we

O ay. And can you describe what -- this primal

you. I thin

the sister provided some of the substitute

now that this is an experience that

ids sleep

All right. I understand the question now, than

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Does that factor into your characterization of

Grady Nelson dealing with primal scene? A Q A Yes. As a young child -Can you explain that to the jury? As a child of four or five years of age to see

actually anyone having sex, has an impact on a child. To see someone who is close to that person, particularly someone maybe even a substitute mother having sex, even if it's consensual sex presents a problem to most young children seeing that. (Omission). Q Well, you have an opinion that based on your

review of the record and the information provided, that his sister acted as a substitute mother? (Omission).

you were using to formulate that opinion. Can you describe where you got that information from and what that information was about his view of his sister who was illed or died? A Q A

Where did I get that information from? Where did you get that information from? He discussed it with me, for one thing. I also --

to that, I want to tal

generally about the information that

had opined on the issue of primal scene, before we get bac

Doctor, let's ta e a step bac for a moment. You

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I also got that information from some of the other

people wor ing on this case this had happened. Q

Did you review the transcripts in this penalty

phase of Dr. Heather Holmes? A Q A Q Yes. O ay. You used that as part of your conclusion? That is correct. O ay. And you indicated that exposure to just

viewing this sexual activity is damaging. Can you explain that to the jury? A Yes. For very young children to witness people now what it

emotionally disturbing to them. If a child of a very young age witnesses sexual behavior, particularly if they see it on a regular basis and especially if it involves one or more of their parents, it is very potentially damaging to that child. They don't understand it, if it is a male child even, if it's between mother and dad, it disturbs boys because they thin that mother is being hurt. So, it's important for children not to be exposed to people having sex because of the traumatic impact it has, because of the long-term impact that it has.

is. All they

now is that this is something that is very

having sex is traumatic. They don't need to

O ay.

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It doesn't much matter if it's it consensual sex or not for a very young child, but, of course, if a child is old

it can be even more traumatic. Q So, the aspect of the possibility of a child

believing that there was some violent act attached to that, that would be more traumatic? (Omission). Q How do you distinguish an additional violent act

in conjunction with a sexual activity? A Q How do you distinguish it? Yes. I mean, how does it add to it or ta e away

from that experience to a child? A Much more frightening. Much more damaging. The

child then associates violence with sex in a way that's not natural. It's perverted. So, it's a very unfortunate and very dangerous connection for a child to see sex and violence at the same moment because it has an impact that could be very damaging over a long period of time. In fact, it helps to explain sexual perversion to some degree.

about that someone who suffers sexual trauma -(Omission). Q Are you familiar with any studies regarding sexual

And has there been significant studies that tal

enough to understand violence and sexual attac

or assault,

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trauma and individuals who become abusive? (Omission). Q Doctor, have you studied individuals who abuse

other individuals sexually? A Q Yes, sir. Is there a correlation between sexual trauma and

the abuser? (Omission). Q Doctor, is there a correlation between someone who

has been sexually abused themselves and someone who sexually abuses? A Absolutely. A very significant correlation

between the two things. Q Now, you indicated that you were provided

information or at least you reviewed a deposition of his aunt that was given in the 1990 case? A Q Yes, sir. So you are familiar with the fact that his aunt

had ta en Grady down to Miami sometime around the age of four or five years old? A Q Yes, sir. How does that factor into the issue of maternal

abandonment and assuming in a light most favorable to the State that the aunt raised him in an environment that was perfect?

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(Omission). Q Let's say hypothetically that the aunt had raised

Grady Nelson in an environment that was loving and caring, how does that still factor into the maternal abandonment issue? A Being raised by the aunt is not the same as being

raised by your momma or your grandmother. That's no substitute for the mother. So, even if he had been raised by an aunt in a very supportive loving environment, it does not mean that the emotional damage that might have been caused when he was -his mother, been abandoned by her was not there. (Omission).

Exhibit No. Q. You indicated that you were a school psychologist for some time before you went to FIU? A Q A Q Yes, sir. So you wor ed with students? Yes. I'm showing you the school records from 1967, '68,

'69, showing that there was significant absenteeism during that period of time when he was in Miami. Can you -(Omission). Q Can you explain to the jury if that's important

Doctor, I'm showing you what's been mar ed as

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and why? A Yes, sir. During the years I was a school

principal, the first thing we loo ed at in determining if a child was in trouble was how much time the child was out of school. A child was out of school for a significant period of time said to us that there was something wrong. Either the

terms of supervision, but some of the first signs that there's something wrong at home. So, loo ing at this record, just glancing at it, it loo s as if this person was absent an extraordinary amount of time from school, that should have been a red flag. Q And these Miami-Dade records, so that's after he

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came to Miami? A Q A Q Yes, sir. He was being raised by his aunt? Yes, sir. Now, why is it that two children may be raised in

the same environment but one child may turn out differently than the other? (Omission). Q Now, in your review of all the material and your

interviews with Mr. Nelson, the transcripts that you reviewed, all the documents and everything that you were

12

child is sic

or there's some problem with the parent in

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provided, have you reached an opinion regarding Grady Nelson? A Q A Yes. And can you tell the jury what your opinion is?

I thin he's a damaged person.

not a normal person in the sense of having evolved in the way that most people do in terms of their sexual development and their overall development. Q Has he exhibited any specific disorders or do you

have an assessment of any disorders that he may have suffered? A Yes. My assessment is that he probably suffered

some sort of traumatic experience earlier in life, possibly one involving his neglect and/or abandonment by his mother and also he seems to exhibit behavior of someone who has been sexually abused. Q Now, you also had an opportunity to study and

write on the history of African-American and the way they were treated in history, have you not? A Q Yes, sir. Did you have an opinion how things were in

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child?

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Haw insville, Georgia, in the early 1960s when Grady was a

I thin he is developmentally damaged. I thin

Yes. I thin

Grady Nelson is emotionally flawed.

he's

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(Omission). Q Would you be surprised if there was little

evidence -(Omission). Q Now, Grady Nelson went to school during what

period of time in Miami based on your interview with him? A Q Elementary school through high school. And during this period of time what was the school

system set up for? A Well, the school system during that time at least

in the early of '60s and late '50s was still segregated, racially segregated.

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system. So, you had some upheaval in the school system in Dade

Washington High School were being bussed over to Miami Beach High. You had parents objecting to it. Blac parents objecting to it. You had white parents

So, it was a very, very difficult period educationally

schools, but particularly for blac

for blac

and white students in Miami-Dade public students because their

objecting to their

ids being bussed from Overtown.

County at that time. Blac

15

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ids at another school, and the period of school

desegregation too place at the time he was in the school

So, we had blac

ids that went to one school and white

students, for example, Boo er T.

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homes were more disrupted in terms of being bussed in and out of the community and losing a lot of the things of having your own school and your own community provides. Q Do you have an opinion as to whether Grady Nelson

was affected by that?

County public schools system in the period when the schools were segregated suffered as a result of it.

you, Doctor.

clarify. You have used the word "it" there. All blac children in Miami-Dade County public schools in that period when the schools were segregated suffered as a result of "it." THE WITNESS: School segregation. Being required to attend blac schools. THE COURT: Separate from white? THE WITNESS: Yes. THE COURT: You are not tal ing about the problems that occurred during the transition? THE WITNESS: Actually both. THE COURT: O ay. I just wanted to ma e sure.

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24

Than

you.

THE COURT: Doctor, let me just as

you to

MR. LENAMON: I have no further questions. Than

I thin

all blac children in the Miami-Dade

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS. RIFKIN: Q A Q

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Hello, Doctor, how are you?

Doctor, I see that you have nothing in front of

you. You have no notes; is that correct? A Q A Q A Q A Q I have this, just given to me. Other than that? That's correct. I do not have any notes. You too no notes, right? I never ta e notes. You never ta e notes? No. Let's tal about -- first of all, you are not a

forensic psychologist, correct? A Q That's correct. You have never considered yourself a forensic

psychologist? A Q That's correct. And for the record, a forensic psychologist is a

psychologist that deals with the law and deals with courtroom testimony and deals with interviewing people who are charged with crimes? A Q Yes. And you don't do that?

Fine, than

you.

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Well, during the time I was psychology chairman we

had a moot court at FIU in the psychology department, and I was responsible for administering the professors who wor ed in that court. So I have some sense of forensic psychology having supervised forensic psychologists. Q A Q You are not a forensic psychologist? No. You consider yourself to be a community

psychologist? A Q right? A Q Yes. You testify for defendants in death penalty cases Correct. And you testified now that you have retired,

as a mitigation witness, correct? A Q Occasionally. Well, you have done it quite a few times?

(Omission). Q In fact, sir, the last time you testified was on

behalf of someone named LeBront (phonetic) Dennis about a month ago? A Q That's correct. And LeBront Dennis --

(Omission).

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into account various factors, correct? A Q Yes. You ta e into account the environment in which the

person grew up? A Q Yes. You ta e into account the environment in which the

person grew up such as the family? A Q A Q A Q A Q Yes. You ta e into account their schooling? Yes. You ta e into account what they tell you? To some degree, yes. You ta e into account what you hear from others? Yes. Let's tal about first, what you heard from

others. It's fair to say, Doctor, that even though you met with the defendant about ten to 12 times, he was not forthcoming at all? A That's a question to me. Was he forthcoming at

all. I thought he was forthcoming about certain things, yes. Q He was forthcoming about certain things that he

wanted to tal about, correct? A Actually he was forthcoming about some things I

And now as a community psychologist, do you ta e

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to you?

few times you went there? A Q A Q That's not correct. No, sir? No. He wanted to tal to you the very first time you

were there? A I'm not sure about the very first time I was there

if he wanted to tal with me or not. But my experience with seeing him was not difficult until at the very end, but basically I was able to see him whenever I wished to.

you and it wasn't until Cindy O'Shea, the mitigation specialist, met with him that he agreed to tal to you?

of the information regarding what was alleged to be in his bac ground, right?

A Q

That's correct. It was Ms. O'Shea that gave the information to

Dr. Holmes too, correct?

In fact, it was Ms. O'Shea that gave you the bul

I thin that's correct.

Well, at the beginning he didn't want to tal

In fact, he didn't want to tal

O ay. That's correct. to you the first

to

Well, in the beginning he didn't even want to tal

wanted to tal about as well.

31

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 from.

I can't testify as to who she got information

You were present at team meetings where Ms. O'Shea

was providing the information, correct? A No. I was present at one meeting. The other

meeting was the telephone conference, and I wasn't present.

general sense, you were present when Ms. O'Shea was providing the information? A Q Yes. And the defendant himself was not providing the

information?

specifically now?

information came from Ms. O'Shea? A Q I don't agree with that. O ay. We'll get into that.

Now, you did not give the defendant any tests? A Q No, I did not. Even though you are a psychologist, you did not

administer any psychological tests? A Not for some 30 years. I stopped doing that a

long time ago. Q 30 years included this defendant, you didn't give

We will get specific, but the bul

What information are you spea ing about

O ay. But present, and I mean that in a real

of the

32

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

him any tests? A to. Q You didn't give him an MMPI, which is a Minnesota It wasn't necessary in that case. I didn't need

Multiphasic exam? A necessary. Q You did not -- did you review any of the tests I had no interest in doing that. It was not

that he was given? The Wisconsin Card Sorting or any of the tests that were administered by the neuropsychologist, Dr. Ouaou. A documents. Q You didn't rely upon them because they weren't Those are not my areas. I did not review those

important to you? A Q They were not my area of expertise. And let's just say from the outset, you were

given -- you gave a final opinion to the jury that you believe the defendant is flawed and that he has problems, correct? A Q Yes. And just because someone has problems does not

24 25

23

ma e them a murderer? A Q No. Just because someone has a crappy childhood does

33

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A Q

not mean they will become a sexual abuser or a sexual predator or a sexual terrorist?

could become that, they would become one. Q That's right. It does not mean that because each

person is born with a certain temperament, correct? A Q Yes. And each person is born with a certain

psychological pac age? A Q That's correct. And each person is born with a certain

intellectual pac age? A Q Yes. And just because life deals you lemons doesn't

necessarily mean that you do not ma e lemonade, right? Just because things go bad -A If you have more lemons than someone else, there's

a good chance you will ma e lemonade that somebody who doesn't have it. Q A Better lemonade, right? It depends what you are going into the situation

with. I'm simply saying that people are born with different

not ma e them a murderer? No. And just because someone was sexually abused does

It means there's a higher li elihood that they

34

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

capacities and temperaments and what have you and how the environment plays on that and who you have as a supporting cast in terms of the parents, school, what have you,

addicted mother and a father who also was on drugs and maybe wasn't there, you would expect that person to be -- and then

that person would have a particularly hard way of life, correct?

And that than person going on to get a Bachelor's

degree, Master's degree and opening up their own business is someone who was born with the certain temperament, a certain psychological pac age and the certain wherewithal too pull themselves up and do it themselves, right? A Well, in psychology we have the term called

protective factors which means that even if you are born with a very difficult situation, terrible situation, that there are certain factors that could protect you from those things. For example, let's say your mother abandoned you, but

So the chances of your becoming involved in some crime or something li e that would be less, for example, from someone

your grandmother too

you in, that's a protective factor.

I would thin that would be difficult, yes.

went into foster care at the age of 12, you would thin

that

Right. So if someone, say, grew up with a crac

greatly impacts whether you become a saint or a

iller.

35

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

them in a foster home or they bounced from one place to another. Protective factors have a way of mitigating against some of the bad circumstances we were just tal ing about, and among those protective factors are intelligence. Some could be born with a higher level of intelligence and could therefore, manage to operate in an environment in a way that mitigates against some of these things that are there that could cause them trouble. Temperament is a factor. Some people are born with an even temperament so even if they get angry, they don't get as angry or as violent as someone else. And this is from birth. You can see this in babies as soon as they are born. Some are very frantic and have a hard temperament, others are very mellow. So, you're correct, there are things you are born with that you then ta e out into the world, and how you come out

of growing up and how much support there is or protective factors there are for having you not become a thief or a criminal of some sort. Q Even people who are born into a good life,

everybody has got problems, right?

depends upon how many

noc s and what have you in the course

whose grandmother didn't ta e them in but the State raised

36

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A Q A

That's my opinion. Everybody has a reason to act badly, right?

statement, everybody has a reason to act badly.

and say this is the reason I'm acting badly. A Q A It depends on what the one thing is. Whatever? Well, no not whatever. If the one thing is your

momma left you when you were four years old and you were raised by somebody who was not in control of themselves and who had, for whatever reason, had to give you up, that's one ind of thing that could happen to you. On the other hand if you don't pass 2nd grade and you

on what the particular factor is in terms of how it will affect what you do later on. Q It is how it affects you, not how it affects

others. So what might be really, really, really bad to you

at in terms of abandonment and go pfft (descriptive sound).

Most people will assume that they had some

difficult --

O ay.

Well, I'm not really even loo ing at who we loo

other people might loo

get held bac

for a year, that's another thing. It depends

at it and go (indicating)?

Everybody can pic one thing out of their lives

I don't

now. That seems li e a pretty conclusive

37

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

We'll get to maternal abandonment. For the most

part, the basis of your opinion is one-third from the defendant, right? A I didn't say that. The defendant, others, the

records, so probably if you balance it all out. I'm not sure of the facts. Maybe a third from him, possibly. Q One-third of the opinion comes from the defendant,

One-third from the records and one-third from what the investigators and other people told you. A Q A Q I understand. So it's one-third, one-third, one-third? More or less, yes. And it's true that he, the defendant, is not a

very good historian? A Q That's correct. In fact, he's not a particularly good witness

about his own bac ground? A Q That's correct. And, in fact, Doctor, you could not rely upon one

thing he said?

with that. Q A No? No. I thin rely, for example, on his opinion

about his mother. His opinion about his mother was very

I thin

that's an overstatement. I don't agree

38

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

negative. I have no reason to doubt that was, given what he told me happened to him. Q So you could not rely entirely on everything he

told you, you needed corroboration? A Q That's correct. The corroboration would come from his family

members, right? A Q A Q A Q That's one source, but there are others. You didn't spea to any of his family members? That's correct. You didn't spea to his cousin Shirley? No. You didn't spea to the person who was raised in

his house as his sister named Aretha who died a year ago? A Q No, I didn't. You didn't spea to his nieces, one is named Val,

these people are all local? A No, I didn't.

(Omission).

A Q Wooten? A Q

No. You didn't spea to his mother named Loretta

No.

So you didn't spea

You didn't spea to a cousin named Timothy Hudson?

to any family members whether

39

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

they lived near or far? A Q A Q That's correct.

No. Records, you loo ed at records that were provided

to you, and you stated, that his mother abandoned him, correct? A Q Yes. You did not see any records from Child Protective

Services from Georgia? A Q No. You did not see any records from any courts here

giving his aunt custody? A Q No. You did not see any records that would corroborate

that his mother abandoned him? A Well, what I was told, was that -MS. RIFKIN: Well, Judge, I -THE WITNESS: No, no record. I did not see a record. BY MS. RIFKIN:

records that would corroborate that his mother abandoned him? A No.

I now what you were told, but you did not see any

You did not spea

to his daughter, Shannon Dorsey?

40

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 life.

You did not see any records that she was jailed

and unable to care for him? A Q I saw no records about that, no. And you were relying upon the defendant who is not

a particularly good historian and others told you, correct? A Q That is correct. You have no evidence whatsoever to corroborate

that the defendant's mother did anything other than give her son a better life by giving him to her sister. You having nothing to say yeah or nay? A Actually, it depends on what you mean by a better

My question is, you have nothing that shows that

that did not in fact happen, that she did not give him to her sister to give him a better life? A Had that happened, it would have been

highly unusual for a mother to give a child -Q Doctor, and I don't mean to interrupt you --

(Omission). Q But my question is --

(Omission). Q And it may have been inartful, so I apologize if

it was. You have seen nothing either way to establish that the defendant's mother did not give him to his sister to give him a better life?

41

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 no.

I have not seen anything that would suggest that,

that did not happen? A Q Correct. In fact, the defendant was too young to now why

he was going to live with his aunt? In fact, that's what he told you, that he didn't remember why? A Well, I'm not sure that that's so. I'm not

sure he told me he didn't remember why his mother gave him

Well, remember him telling you that he had no

direct recollection himself about his mother because he was too young? (Omission). THE WITNESS: He did tell me some things about his mother. He did recall. BY MS. RIFKIN: Q But do you remember him telling you that he had no

direct recollection himself regarding the circumstances of living with his aunt because he was too young. A Q That's correct. And that he got the information from his aunt who

was not forthcoming about the incident. Any information he got was from the aunt who was not forthcoming?

up. I thin he did tal

about that.

O ay. You have not spo en to anyone, that says

42

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A Q

Correct. You are assuming, sir, that the mother was a

prostitute, right? A Well, at one point I thought that might have been

true. But I'm not sure if that's true at all. I don't have any evidence that she was a prostitute.

children was based upon the fact that you thought the mother was a prostitute? A Q A It was not. It was not? No. She could have been having sex with somebody

and not necessarily getting money for it. It doesn't need to be a prostitution situation for him to be exposed to sex. Q What evidence do you have that she was

promiscuous, sir? A I don't have any evidence that she was

promiscuous. Q You don't have any evidence that she wasn't a

loving mother who was destitute and gave her children away in order to give them a better life, do you? A Q No. And yet 50 years later we are here and we

are calling her a whore? (Omission).

O ay. So part of the having sex in front of your

43

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

50 years later, she's not here and we are calling

her a whore? A I am not. You are. I'm not doing that.

(Omission). Q Now, you relied upon what was passed on verbally

from Dr. Holmes, correct? A Q To some degree, yes. And she got it from someone in the attorney office

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

information? A If it came from the attorney's office, I assume

that it had some sense of having been verified. Q A You would assume? I would assume that what I get from an attorney is

essentially verifiable, correct. I wouldn't assume that it's not true. Q You didn't get it from an attorney, you got it

from Dr. Holmes who got it from someone in the attorney's office?

office as well, who gave me information. So switching what

Well, I also spo e to people in the attorney's

And you don't

wor ing on the case, Dr. Holmes didn't tell you who? A Q A Didn't tell me what. Didn't tell you who? I don't thin she did, no. now the reliability of the

44

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

I got from one source as opposed to the other is difficult at this point several months down the road.

is that correct? A Q Right.

person's s ills in investigation, do you? A Q

No.

has testified before this jury is reliable or s illed at all, correct? A Q No. Now, as far as what he told you about his mother,

the defendant told you that his mother had troubles, right? A Q Yes. But that he had no direct recollection himself

because he was so young? A Q A me about. Q Doctor, do you remember giving a deposition in No. No? No. He did have direct recollection that he told

this case on November 3rd, 2010, Page 45? A Q Yes. Start with Line 14.

You don't

now if the defendant's investigator who

And you don't

You don't

now the reliability of the information,

now the reliability of that

45

1 2

(Omission).

4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

sources. Do you recall that, sir? A Q Yes. O ay. And the defendant told you that he had no

direct recollection regarding his mother, himself because he was so young? A Q That is not correct. Again, do you recall giving a deposition, Doctor,

on November 3rd, 2010? A Q as was I? A Q Yes. Do you recall being as ed this question and giving Yes. And do you recall that defense counsel was there,

this answer. MR. LENAMON: Page number? MS. RIFKIN: Sure. Same Page 45 starting at Line 14. "QUESTION: Through any source, and if you could identify the source, that would be fine. If it's from the defendant, that's one thing. If it's not from the defendant, that's another. "ANSWER: Yes. That I learned that the mother had

tal ing about the information that you got from various

Doctor, when we were tal ing before, we were

46

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

her own problems. I learned she was an alcoholic. "QUESTION: And you learned that from the defendant or from the other sources? "ANSWER: He told me that his mother had troubles, but he said he had no direct recollection himself, he was so young. But then he heard this growing up that his mother had these problems. Do you recall giving that answer? A I do recall giving that answer, but the response

that I recall giving was to another question about his recollection about his mother in which you were as ing me if he had any direct recollections about his mother. And I gave two answers in that -- I'm sorry, two instances in that answer in which he did tell me things that he did remember about his mother. Two specific things he told me about that he remembered, and I did spea to those in that deposition. Q Yes, sir, you did. You did. But you also do

recall saying he had no direct recollection himself, he was so young regarding his mother access troubles. A Q Regarding his mother's troubles, that's correct.

reaction to his mother, though, is not necessarily based on fact, correct? A I'm sorry?

Just so we are clear on that, than

you, sir. His

47

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

His reaction and what he said about his mother

is not necessarily based upon fact? A I just don't understand that question. If that's

the question, I don't get it.

wasn't necessarily true, then his reaction to his mother, the negative reaction to his mother would not necessarily be based upon fact? A Q That's correct, yes. And that would be based upon information that

someone else had given him? A Q A Q Correct. Which would not necessarily be true? It could possibly not be true, that's correct.

about his sister. Mr. Lenamon as ed you lots of questions regarding that. First of all, you have no documentation of what occurred with his sister, correct. A Q That's correct. You only have what was told to you by Ms. O'Shea

and Dr. Holmes based upon information that they got? A Q from? A No, I don't. Correct.

And you don't

now where that information came

Now, let's tal

O ay. If someone told him something, and it

about the incident that he relates

48

4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

You don't have any information that she was ever a

mother figure to him? A That was a conclusion I drew based upon the age

difference between the two of them and the fact that I had information that the mother had problems, otherwise she wouldn't have, I assume, given the children up. So the older sister, I assumed, had that role with him.

you that. He never told you that he had a mother type of relationship with his sister? A He did not use those terms. He did not use that

particular term, no. Q In fact, Doctor, most respectfully, you did not

even now that she was much older than he was, you thought she was a young girl? A Q I did? Yes, sir. You thought she was eight or nine years

old at the time of her death? A At the time of the death or at the time of the

incident? I'm not sure what you are as ing me.

the time of the incident.

O ay. At the time of the incident. Let's go to

O ay. But, see, Doctor, the defendant never told

He did as me about that.

defendant's sister being li e a mother figure to him?

O ay. Now, Mr. Lenamon as ed you about the

49

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

years old? A Q I was not sure. So an eight or nine-year-old to a four-year-old is

probably not going to act in a motherly -- as a motherly substitute, correct? A Certainly that could happen. It happens all the ids being raised by their sisters or

even slightly older siblings. So that's not unusual for that to happen. Q Now, the defendant did not describe for you what

he witnessed, correct, the sex that he witnessed? A Q I don't recall if he described it exactly or not. In fact, what he said was his sister was

being beaten, correct? A Q A Q Yes. And also that she was being cut? Yes. And you have received no documentation of that

whatsoever? A Q No. In fact, did anybody ever show you a death

certificate for Grace Dennis where she died of pneumonia?

time with young

thin she was older than he was at that time. Q You thought she was very young, eight or nine

I don't

now her exact age at that time except I

50

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A Q occurred? A Q

No.

That's correct. He actually may have stumbled upon his sister

having sex. Do you brief that's possible? A Q It's possible. In fact, you don't now how much of it he watched,

if anything?

And actually, for a child of four years old, it's

probable that he's recalling what people told him rather than his own recollection? A Q A I don't agree with that. You never said that before? Well, I'm sure that some of the things that he

reported to me were based upon things that some people told him. But what he recalls from that incident, I thin he did, in fact, recall it. I don't thin he depended upon someone else to tell him about that particular incident.

age could recall accurately everything that happened even under very emotional events such as that?

And it's probably unli ely that a child of that

I don't

now how much of it he watched, no.

You don't

now if this rape actually even

51

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

A Q A

No, I don't agree with that. You don't? No. Young children can remember amazing things,

even at age three and four, particular -Q A And -- I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Particularly things that have a very strong

emotional impact li e being left alone by their mother, li e witnessing sex, even consensual sex, li e witnessing violence. These things stay with children, even very, very, young children.

anybody that a child of that age could recall accurately everything that happened even under very emotional events?

of that age could recall every specific thing that happened at that event, but I thin the emotional impact of it stays with the person, whether the particular details are there or not. Q What you end up with is probably a combination of

part truth and part exaggeration? A Q That's often the case, yes. The hard truth is that his sister could have been

having sex with someone? A we now. Yes. It could have been consensual sex as far as

25

Oh, that's correct. I didn't thin

that a child

O ay. You never said it was probably unli ely to

52

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

And then later on it became a rape when it was

explained to the townspeople? A Q A Q Well --

I'm sorry? You don't have any way of nowing what happened

because there's no records?

in a period when it was very conceivable that this could have happened. I understand the alleged assailants were white men with a young blac girl, so it's not inconceivable this could have happened, there could be no record of it. Often attac s during that period on a blac person may not have been as serious as an attac on a white person. I'm not surprised that there are difficulties in maintaining or finding records of this happening at all. Oftentimes domestic abuses among blac s in particular, were dismissed as that's just the way those people are. Q I appreciate that, Doctor, I do. But you don't

have anything to corroborate that there was, in fact, a rape? A Q No. You don't have anything to corroborate that she

was beaten?

I believe it was Haw insville, Georgia, in 19 --

You don't have any way of

nowing that, right?

53

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 case.

A Q A Q A Q A

No, I don't. Or that she was cut? No. And he never told you that? He never told me what? He never told you that she was beaten and cut? I may have gotten that from other sources in the

And, in fact, he told you that -- did he tell you

his sister's name, by the way? A Q He may have. If he was very close to her and she was almost

14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

obviously he'd remember her name?

So he couldn't possibly confuse her name of Grace

with Gladys, could he?

have been an error of that type. It could have happened. I

Q A Q A Q

don't

now what was going through his mind at that time. Did you read the village records, sir? No. You didn't read them? No. So the defense never provided you with the

He could have, I don't now. It's possibly could

13

li e a mother figure and was a very traumatic event,

I would thin

that he would.

54

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

defendant's statement, My Life Story, By Grady Nelson?

Would it be important to see what his life story

was bac in 2004? A Q A Q

Would it important to me to see that? Yes. Yes. So if he were to say --

(Omission). Q It would be important to see what his version of in 2004, right?

A Q 2004? A Q

Yes. And what his version of his life story was in

Yes.

himself, right? A Q Yes. His view was that he was voted most li ely to

succeed in high school? A Q A Q Is that a question? Yes, sir. I don't now that for a fact. O ay. In fact, you never chec ed his

school yearboo s or anything to see if that was what his

It would be important to

the events were bac

I don't thin

I saw that.

now what his view was of

55

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

standing was at school, did you? A Q No, I didn't. Or that he believed himself to be the smartest id in the entire school? Is that a question? Yes. What's the question?

the school? A don't thin Well, no, that wouldn't be important because I that's necessarily true. His assessment of id in school may not be

correct. It wouldn't be necessarily important to now that he said that.

to believe and discarded what you chose not to believe? A Q A No. No?

and choose. We have to use what is given to us. Q Now, also the fact that you believe that he's

flawed and has emotional problems, of course, that doesn't

correct?

prevent him from developing the plan to

ill his wife,

No. We are not allowed to do that. We can't pic

So in other words, you pic ed out what you chose

himself being the smartest blac

that he considered himself to be the smartest blac

A Q A Q

blac

The question is, would it be important to

now id in

56

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

(Omission).

wife? (Omission).

wife? A Q A What would plan? Whatever emotional problems he has? Would it prevent him from planning it, no, it

wouldn't prevent him from planning it.

A Q

He is capable of that, yes.

step-children? (Omission). Q A Q A Q You find the defendant to be manipulative? Yes. You find the defendant to be violent? Yes.

account the schooling and what you testified to there was a certain amount of problems in the school? A Q Yes. And that he was bussed from the inner city to

Miami Beach Senior High School?

Now, as far as the schooling, you too

And he is capable of planning to

He is capable of planning to ill his wife?

ill his

into

Would that prevent him from planning to

Did that prevent him from planning to

ill his

ill his

57

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A Q

Yes. And you considered that a problem because they

were ta en outside of their comfort zone? A

It wasn't just a matter of being out of their comfort zone, they were away from their parents, away from the

They were away from the familiar things that would have helped them feel comfortable in that particular school. So when they went to another community, it did present problems for them. Q Mr. Nelson never told you he felt uncomfortable at

Beach High? A It wouldn't have been necessary for him to have

told me that. I wasn't interested in how individual students responded to being bussed to Miami Beach High. My study was how children in general were impacted by that and my study was of how their parents, particularly

Beach. I didn't necessarily pinpoint my opinion to just what happened to Grady Nelson. Q I appreciate that, Doctor, but you are here for

Mr. Nelson's defense, not for anyone else. (Omission).

downtown parents felt about their

neighborhood that they

I wouldn't put it that way, but it was a problem.

new.

ids being bussed to Miami

58

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Based upon that, was there anything about his

schooling, about being bussed to Miami Beach Senior High School that you too into consideration in coming before this jury regarding mitigation? A I believe that there were educational problems

that blac children who were bussed to Miami Beach High School confronted and faced that were not problems that were presented to the white students who lived on Miami Beach who attended that school.

being able to function effectively in a school that was a strange environment for them. So, whether there were individual students succeeded in

extremely well. It does not mean that they may not have had problems in that environment. Q I appreciate that, Doctor, but Grady Nelson

specifically in that is why we are here. Did he have any specific problems while at Miami Beach Senior High School? A Q A Not that I'm aware of. He told you he had no problems whatsoever? He did not specifically state that he had problems

at Miami Beach High School. Q In fact, he told you that he had no problems

getting along with anyone there except a drama teacher?

that -- some blac

And I thin

that those problems had to do with their

students at Miami Beach High did

59

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

I'm not sure I recall that. That's possible. I

just don't recall that fact at the moment.

that he had problems with was a drama teacher who failed him, which was the reason he didn't graduate until August? A Q A Q A Q I don't recall that conversation with him. O ay. He didn't tell you anything about that? I don't recall. And you reviewed his transcript from high school?

you never too , right? A Q I'm sorry?

never too , right?

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

problems, correct? A problems. Q Mr. Nelson has no problem getting along in the I actually never heard him blame anybody for his

jail, as far as you can tell?

17

too . I don't understand your question. Q I'll move on.

Mr. Nelson blames a lot of other people for his

I wouldn't

now.

It would be hard to flun

a class that you never

It would be

ind of hard to flun a class that you

It would be

I thin

O ay. So he never told you that the only person

I did. ind of hard to flun something that

60

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Q A Q A Q

You didn't review those records? His jail records? Yes.

And he had no problem getting along in his

neighborhood?

Q A

He never told you that he had any problems? I don't recall him telling me about any

difficulties he had in his neighborhood. Q A Q A Q abuse? A Q abused? Yes. Did he tell anybody else that he was sexually He never told you he was sexually abused? Yes, he did. He told you he was sexually abused? Yes. And did he give you details about the sexual

Well, you reviewed the records. Did he tell

Dr. Holmes or did he specifically deny it to Dr. Holmes? A Q years? I don't recall. O ay. Has he specifically denied it over the

I don't

now if he did or not.

I wouldn't now about that.

I don't thin

I saw his jail records.

61

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sir?

Well, he told me that it happened, so he didn't

deny it in his conversation with me. Q What about Dr. Mash, did he specifically deny it

to Dr. Mash.

Q A

Did you review her records too? I don't recall what was in the record about that

particular point. Q When he was interviewed by The Village, did

he specifically deny any sexual abuse? A Q I never saw the records from The Village. Didn't thin it was important to loo at those,

Actually, no, I didn't. My focus was on his early

life, not his adult life so much. Q On his early life, he told you that he grew up in

a household with a loving aunt who acted as his mother? A Q A Who what, I'm sorry? Who acted as his mother? I don't recall he ever described his aunt as

loving. I don't thin that particular term was used as I can recall. He did not describe his aunt as being necessarily a problem for him. But I don't remember that he necessarily said loving. He may have, but I don't recall that.

I don't

now if he did or not.

62

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

You also reviewed her statement from the 1990

sexual abuse case, and you can get a feel for her from that, correct? A Q Yes, I did review that. This was someone who considered the defendant to

be her son, right? A Q A Q That's correct. Raised him as her own?

Raised him in a house where there was also a

father, she had a husband, right? A assume so. Q A Q care of? Raised him in a house where he had siblings? Yes. Where his emotional and physical needs were ta en I'm not absolutely sure about that. I would

example, the absenteeism is one indication maybe some of his needs were not ta en care of because he was not in school.

A Q

That's a problem in itself.

school and he was leaving? A That's possible.

You don't

now that his aunt wasn't ta ing him to

You don't

now if he wasn't just s ipping school?

I don't now about that. I thin that, for

I thin

that's what she said.

63

We're doing a lot of assumptions based upon the

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

event in his life, and I'm saying might, does that necessarily ma e somebody a iller? A It increases the chance of the person having a

problem. It doesn't necessarily ma e the person certain to be a iller.

And whatever events that we have in our lives, we

can either choose to let them swallow us or we can choose to be rise above them?

choices in a rational way, according to the statistics. But

heart. Pain stays with them, it's not a rational choice, particularly when it happens when you are very young. So,my answer is no, it doesn't happen quite that way. Q A Q The defendant has free will, right? That's a philosophical question. It's actually a practical question. There is

nothing that indicates to you that the defendant did not have free will? (Omission). THE WITNESS: Well, I understand this defendant to

describe people

now they get to choose what stays in their

No, we cannot. We don't ma e those ind of

lac of records to corroborate any of this, right? A Q Yes. Now, the fact that he might have had a traumatic

64

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

be impulsive. For example, I understand there may be some things in the record that I saw, that suggested he has some frontal robe problems. It might explain some of his behavior other than just his own choice to rationally not behave in a certain way. BY MS. RIFKIN: Q Just because somebody is impulsive does not

necessarily mean that they are unable to plan an event? A Q No, it doesn't mean that. Just because somebody is impulsive when they go

into a shopping mall does not mean that they cannot plan out a party later on, right? A Well, in terms of impulsivity, a person -- you

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

would plan how to get out of the house.

Q A to me. Q A Q

It doesn't necessarily mean he's a genius, either. I was just saying that it seems to be a bad plan

He was capable of planning? He was capable of planning. It was capable of planning. Whether or not it was

I would thin they would plan --

You would thin --

16

a murder, for example, in a rational way, I would thin

15

as ed me about planning an event. If a person were to plan they

65

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

a good plan or a bad plan, it would have been a great

right?

or a bad criminal, it doesn't ma e them not a criminal at all? A Q Right. Did you review the police reports and the pictures

and everything? A Q Yes. So somebody that goes to the trouble of dressing a

certain way and covering their shoes in order to ma e sure that no blood gets on them, that's somebody who is planning something, right? A Not necessarily. It could have been a spur of the

moment decision to do something li e that. Q A Q Spur of the moment decision? It could have been, yes. O ay. Does that sound li e a spur the moment

decision, Doctor when somebody goes to the trouble of wrapping their shoes and having a certain manner of dress? (Omission). Q Doctor, I'm almost done. The bottom line is, you

have no idea whether the defendant was -- witnessed anything

O ay. Well, what ma es somebody a good criminal

I thin

I'm lost now.

plan had he

nown that the loc s had been changed, right,

66

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

in his childhood, you have no idea. Other than what you are assuming, right? A Q historian? A Q That's correct. You have no idea what happened in his growing up Other than what he told me. And you have already said he's not a very good

life other than what he told you, correct?

aunt from sources other than what he told me.

wasn't -- that it wasn't Ozzie and Harriet in his household other than what he told you? A Q I bet it wasn't. You can bet all you want, Doctor, but you have

nothing whatsoever to base that on, other than your gut feeling?

difficult cases, I feel comfortable in this conclusion. Q He didn't tell you that, you don't have any to

any family members who told you otherwise? A Q Correct. By the way, towards the end -- at the beginning

the defendant didn't want to see you and at the end he

records, you didn't do any tests, and you didn't spea

Well, it's 34 years of guts loo ing at a lot of

I understand that. But you don't

Well, I thin

I learned that he was raised by his

now that there

67

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

certainly didn't want to see you, right? (Omission). Q Doctor, based upon everything that you have seen

in this case and every -- including your interviews with the defendant, there's no question in your mind that he is a predator; is that correct? A Q A Q A Q That's correct. And that he is a manipulator? Correct. And that he is someone that's dangerous? Yes. And the mere fact that he grew up in an area where

there was -- there might have been crime in a time that might not have been optimal, not everybody who grew up in that time and had problems in the general community grew up

A Q

poverty stric en areas grew up to be very good people? A Q Oh, yes, it's true. Very good members of the community. Their

community, our community, the community in general? A If a person grows up in Overtown and a person

grows up in Pinecrest, there's a difference in what could happen too those people --

to be a

iller? No. In fact, most people, most good people out of the

68

1 2 3 4 5 6

Q A

I understand that. -- based upon what's around them. So the fact

that I'm tal ing about it doesn't mean that because someone is born and raised in Liberty City is going to become a iller or a criminal. It means the chances of them getting involved in that ind of a lifestyle are greater than someone, for example,

8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

somebody who grew up in that area who made it out and became, in my opinion, pretty important. Yes?

there li e that. It sounded li e pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and you did it and so other fol s could do it. I have a problem with that being offered about myself. Q No, sir. What I'm saying is just because you grew

up in a particular area, at a particular time when things were bad -A Q Yes, ma'am. -- was not -- did not become a barrier to you

becoming a productive member of society. A I had my dad and I had my mom and they never left

that's born and raised in The Gables or Pinecrest a place li e that. Q A Q Killers come out of both places? Yes. And actually, you are a perfect example of

I don't thin

I'm a good example to put it out

69

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

school, they disciplined us. We couldn't do what we wanted to. They examined everything they brought in the house. I had both my parents in a very poor environment, but I had both my mom and dad, and that made the difference for me and my brothers.

have no idea what happened in his?

happened in his? A Q A Q Well -It really calls for a "yes" or "no." No. And what you really testified to today is on the

general community issues in Miami, and on general issues that could happen to someone who's mother as ed his aunt to raise him. Correct? General things that can happen?

that could happen to someone who had been abandoned by their

those persons who had been abandoned by their mother. Q A Q But nothing really specifically to Grady Nelson?

And very general, too?

I thin

it's all specific to him.

mother. I tried to address those things as ris

I tried to spea to some of the specific things

You have lots of ideas, but you don't

I thin

You

now what happened in your household, but you

I have an idea. now what

us. They were poor, they wor ed hard, they made us go to

factors of

70

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q

THE COURT: Yes, ma'am. Redirect? MR. LENAMON: Briefly. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LENAMON:

and the damage based on your evaluation of Mr. Nelson, his history, and the records and the record here including the police report, the defendant's statement, his videotaped confession, does all of that go into how you relate to his damage that you refer to? (Omission). Q When you answered the prosecutor's question about

the damage and who he has become, it is all related to beginning at -(Omission). Q Is brain damage a protective factor?

(Omission). THE WITNESS: Is brain damage -- it could be. A person is brain damaged it could -- well, let me restate that. (Omission). There was some conversation that you had with the

prosecutor on cross-examination about protective factors

Doctor, you have tal ed about protective factors

MS. RIFKIN: Than you, sir.

I thin

it's all specific to him.

71

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

that distinguish one person from another resulting them becoming a certain way because of those protective factors. Do you remember that? A Q Yes, I do.

both your mother and father and that would be considered a protective factor? A Oh, yes.

(Omission). Q Is brain damage a protective factor or an

aggravating factor that is going to effect someone's -(Omission). Q any -(Omission). Q Did you evaluate yourself any neurological tests And your testimony today has nothing to do with

or come to any conclusions in regards to whether Mr. Nelson suffers from brain damage? (Omission). Q damage? A Q No. So you would agree with me that you opine nothing Are you even in a position to testify as to brain

about that today? (Omission).

I thin

you had tal ed about briefly that you had

72

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 me.

Did anything in your opinion -- did you consider

anything or factor anything in your opinion about the defendant suffering from brain damage in your opinion today? (Omission). Q A Q Go ahead, Doctor. Could you restate the question, please? Were you able to factor in anything about brain

damage into your opinion today? (Omission). Q Were you able to identify any protective factors

in Grady's development?

factor in his life. Q Now, what is your opinion about the defendant

being an historian and whether he overreports or underreports? (Omission). THE WITNESS: He tended to underreport things to

BY MR. LENAMON: Q Is it unusual based on your experience a male who

has been sexually abused is shameful about that? (Omission). THE WITNESS: Males are very hesitant to admit they have been sexually abused. They will usually deny it,

I thin

his aunt to some degree was a protective

73

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

deny it, deny it. Sometimes it will impact their sense of self-worth. So, it's difficult to get men or boys to agree that they were involved in any ind of homosexual behavior. BY MR. LENAMON: Q Is it unusual for someone to be impacted at a

young age or early age because of things that they are told, whether they are true or not? (Omission). Q Is it unusual for someone to be impacted by a fact

that they were told, whether that fact be true or not? A Q That's not it unusual. And did Grady Nelson tell you that he was told

that his mother was in jail for prostituting herself? (Omission). Q Did Grady Nelson tell you that he had been told

that his mother had been arrested for prostituting herself? A Q Yes. And when the prosecutor used that ugly word whore,

did you ever use that word -(Omission). Q -- in the 114 pages of the deposition that she

24 25

word? A I would not have done that. No, I didn't. I

23

too in her office with me there. Did you ever use that

74

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

never use that term. (Omission). Q And is there anything that you said or testified

that is indicative that you believe Grady Nelson's mother was a whore? A Q No, sir. Did you ever tell this prosecutor in the two hours

that we sat there and tal ed about that, that that was your opinion in any form or fashion? (Omission). Q And other than telling her in your deposition on

Page 40 that you were told by Grady -(Omission). Q Is there any reference in that 114-page deposition

about the information that you had regarding the mother prostituting herself other than what you told the prosecutor that defendant told you what he was told? (Omission). Q Did he tell you -THE COURT: No. Do you remember being as ed this question and giving this answer. BY MR. LENAMON:

giving this answer: "QUESTION: And what did he say -- and did he say

Do you remember being as ed this question and

75

1 2 3 4

what his mother was in jail for? "ANSWER: Yes. "QUESTION: What was that? "ANSWER: Well, he said what he was told. He didn't now at the time.

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q

Do you remember giving those? Yes. Other than that, did you ever refer to

prostituting in any other way -A Q A Q No, sir. -- at deposition? No, sir.

about that specifically? (Omission). Q Was there a reason that you limited your

conclusions about the prostitution issue in the way you did and can you explain that to the jury? A It wouldn't matter whether the mother was a

prostitute or not, that didn't factor into my thin ing at all. What factored into my thin ing was the fact that this

On direct examination did I as

prostituting herself; mainly the drin ing."

"ANSWER: Drun , drin ing, being in drug houses,

"QUESTION: O ay.

you any questions

76

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

was a young child between the ages of eight and four who was in the custody of a parent who apparently had to give them up for some reason. And what was indicated to me by him, was that the mother was drin ing heavily, was in jail several times, and that for this reason, the aunt was as ed to come and get him. Q yours? (Omission). So the word whore was the prosecutor's term, not

Mr. Nelson's memory? A Q Yes. Did he specifically tell you about two incidents

involving his mother which were very negative? (Omission). THE WITNESS: Yes, he did. BY MR. LENAMON: Q A Can you recount for the jury what those were? He told me when he was with his mother, that there

was an occasion when she punished him and his brother for something they didn't do, and that had an impact upon him. The other instance was when he was with his aunt and his mother came to visit and tried to discipline him and he resented that.

Now, you remember being as ed questions about

77

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He physically pushed her away from him when he resisted it, and I was interested in his reaction to his mother's attempt to discipline him because it was a good sign to me about the nature of their relationship. So, when he expressed to me that he physically pushed his mother away from him, it said to me that whatever might have happened in his early experience with his mother, he resented it and he had a very, very tough time tying to love his mother.

what they tell you at first tends to change over time. (Omission). Q A Go ahead, Doctor. I find wor ing with the defendants, a lot of times

they will tell one thing and over time it changes to something else. And when you write these things down in your notes and

and redo your notes and then you get cross-examined on these notes, so I tend not to do that. What I tend to do is to spend time tal ing to the person, trying to get to now what is going on, and then if it's important, enough, I'll remember it.

If I need to go bac

to a particular detail, dates,

you find out that they are not true, you've got to go bac

My experience in wor ing with the defendants is

Why don't you ever ta e notes, Doctor?

78

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

for that reason. Q How many times have you testified in a death

penalty case, Doctor?

Q in now? A Q

And how many death penalty cases are you involved

Two.

Ms. Dorsey, had gone through significant hardship and the defendant had gone through hardship, but Ms. Dorsey turned out o ay. Is that the same with sibling? Does that happen often with siblings? A Oh, yes.

(Omission).

Mr. Nelson's brother Willie? (Omission). Q Doctor, is it unusual for siblings that are raised

in the same family, that one person may be affected more or get in trouble more than the other? Can you explain that? (Omission). Q Go ahead.

Do you

now anything about what happened with

about how one person, and I thin

she is referring to

got to finish this, but I thin

You started to tal

I thin

three times.

about on direct, and we never Ms. Rif in tal ed to you

names, I'll as

to see the record. But I don't ta e notes

79

It happens very often. The same household, two

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

records from Haw insville, Georgia, during cross by Ms. Rif in. Do you have an opinion as to during that time period of

community in minimalizing events? (Omission). Q Why would it not -- something have been reported

14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1960s during this period of time in Haw insville? (Omission).

whether the mother, by giving him, meaning Grady, to his sister was doing it for a better life, and you started to answer and you didn't complete your answer can you finish your answer? (Omission). Q A Go ahead. Restate, please.

Now, at some point Ms. Rif in as ed you about

13

bac in the 1960s? (Omission). Q Is it unusual for things not to be reported in the

time what police officers did in regards to the blac

ids, one turns out to do very well and the other ends up in

prison. It happens. In social science we try to understand how these circumstances could occur. Q You were as ed a lot of questions about not having

80

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question. Did Grady Nelson's mother, assuming hypothetically she's the one that gave up Grady Nelson to her sister, assuming that hypothetically, was she giving him a better life by doing that. Can you explain? (Omission). Q A Go ahead, Doctor. I would speculate that if a mother gave up her

child for a better life, that would mean that the life that the mother was providing for the child was pretty bad for her to go that far. So, it may be true, that she gave up her son so that he might have a better life, but my retort would be better than what? What he was facing in Haw insville was a very dire situation, particularly if his mother was being arrested. (Omission). THE WITNESS: And I speculated that a child at age four who is in a jail with his mother is at ris . (Omission). THE WITNESS: And I assumed and I speculated that if this happened to Grady Nelson, there's a good chance that he was emotionally damaged by having been neglected during this period in his life.

MR. LENAMON: Than

you, Doctor. I have no

You were as ed a question -- let me re-as

you the

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further questions. (Subsequent proceedings were reported but are herein omitted at the request of the ordering party).

82

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CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER

STATE OF FLORIDA COUNTY OF MIAMI-DADE

I, BRYNN DOCKSTADER, Court Reporter for the Circuit Court of the Eleventh Judicial Circuit of the State of Florida, in and for Dade County, DO HEREBY CERTIFY, that I was authorized to, and did, report in shorthand the proceedings and evidence in the above-styled cause, as stated in the caption hereto, and that the foregoing pages constitute a true, accurate and correct computerized transcription of my report of said proceedings and evidence. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand in the City of Miami, Dade County, Florida, this 10th day of February, 2011.

________________________ Brynn Doc stader, RMR