How to run 50 hz motor on 60 hz

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How to run 50 hz motor on 60 hz View New Posts

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Thread: How to run 50 hz motor on 60 hz

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11-28-2009,

02:12 PM
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#1
Dec 2004 new york 103

entoffice
Aluminum

How to run 50 hz motor on 60 hz

I have a Bergeon lathe and motor . The motor is single phase 50 Hz 1/7 hp 0.8 amp 220 volt My supply is 110 volt 60 Hz. I do have a transformer which can produce the 220 volts but I am concerned about the frequency difference. The VFDs I have seen are only for 3 phase output. I would appreciate any advise as I would hate to change the motor which is origonal to the lathe.

Thank You

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11-28-2009,

02:23 PM
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#2
Feb 2009 London, Ontario, Canada 125

Leadfootin
Aluminum

Motor speed will be 60/50 times original, and power will likewise derate. Hook up with correct voltage and if current is less than rated it should be ok. If the load is RPM dependent such as a centrifugal pump problems may arise from the speed change. A 6/5 speed increase will result in a huge load increase. Peter

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11-28-2009,

03:21 PM
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#3
Feb 2006 Fort Wayne, IN 6,298

L Vanice
Diamond

I expect there will be no problem. The motor will run faster, and I expect the power to be greater, not less, than nameplate. I have run a 5 HP 50 HZ single phase Baldor motor on my big air compressor for around 30 years with no problems. I did ask Baldor first and they said no problem. Larry

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11-28-2009,

04:15 PM
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#4
Nov 2007 marysville ohio

moonlight machine

1 of 7

02/04/2012 12:26 PM

How to run 50 hz motor on 60 hz

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Titanium

Posts:

2,637

My holbrook lathe has a 50 cycle motor.......runs fine on 60 cycle

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11-28-2009,

09:02 PM

#5
Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Berlin Center (NE) Ohio Posts: 1,862

Craig Donges
Stainless

I was always under the impression a motor will run hotter when it is run on 60 cycles when it was built for 50. True or not? Craig Donges

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11-28-2009,

09:24 PM
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#6
Feb 2009 Vancouver, B.C. Canada 1,678

Hdpg

Stainless

And I thought it was the other way. A motor designed for 50 HZ will have a higher impedance on 60 HZ so it will draw less current and develop minimally less power????

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11-29-2009,

03:21 AM
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#7
Oct 2003 NYC 266

mmambro
Cast Iron

Originally Posted by Hdpg

And I thought it was the other way. A motor designed for 50 HZ will have a higher impedance on 60 HZ so it will draw less current and develop minimally less power????

I agree. As a matter of fact, my concern woud be the starting capacitor. The reactive impedance is lower at 60Hz, and I wasn't sure if the approximatley 20% change would be significant. Mike

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11-29-2009,

03:28 AM

#8
Join Date: Location: Posts: Mar 2009 Indiana USA 332

Cast Iron

misterT

There is no problem running 50 HZ motors on 60 HZ it has been done for many many years. There are way more problems running 230 motors on 208 and that has been done for many years too, any differences will be unnoticeable

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11-29-2009,

04:22 AM
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#9
Mar 2007 England UK

Peter.

Cast Iron

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02/04/2012 12:26 PM

How to run 50 hz motor on 60 hz

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Posts:

374

I see many motors over here with ratings for both frequencies on the same plate.

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11-29-2009,

05:23 AM
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#10
Feb 2009 London, Ontario, Canada 125

Leadfootin
Aluminum

Available power will be greater but the magnetic losses in the rotor will increase due to the frequency increase possibly causing warmer operation and hence derating. This is due to the armature and stator structures and is why most motors are constructed of a series of thin steel plates in the magnetic circuits. Peter

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11-29-2009,

05:39 AM

#11
Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Murfreesboro, TN. USA Posts: 461

gary350
Cast Iron

You can run a 50 hz motor on 60 hz with no problem. With 60 hz the higher frequency produces more inductive reactance which takes the place of wire resistance and the motor will run fine. If you run a 60 hz motor on 50 hz it will run fine for a while then it will get hot. If you don't run the motor very long it will be ok. It you run it too long it can burn the motor up. A 50 hz motor will have more wire and more coils to produce more resistance for the lower frequency. 60 hz on this motor just adds more resistance and more protection to the motor. The motor will try to run a slower speed because of the extra resistance but it will also try to run faster because of the higher frequency. I am sure you machine has a lot of different speeds so the motor speed will not matter.

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11-29-2009,

11:36 AM

#12
Join Date: Location: Posts: Apr 2005 Benton, IL USA 4,404

precisionworks
Diamond

From the Eng-Tips Forums: Motors: Changing between a 50 and 60Hz supply. faq237-1224
Posted: 20 Mar 06 (Edited 9 Jul 06) Due to the frequent questions about running motors at "the other frequency" this FAQ was created. This FAQ is directed at other engineers and so will contain details the average user may not care about. You are invited to pay attention only to what is useful to you. This FAQ applies to induction motors, both single, and polyphase. Single phase motors have an added aspect that will be discussed at the end of this FAQ. AC motors are quite complex for all their functional simplicity - turn them on they spin. There are a huge number of interacting relationships in a motor's design. There are first order, second order and probably even third order aspects that are all balanced to produce a dependable motor with the desired characteristics. This FAQ will deal only with the First Order aspects. These complexities include: 1) Rotational speed is a direct function of the power frequency. 2) Cooling is a direct function of rotational speed. 3) The magnetic capacity of the motor's magnetic(iron) circuit is designed to the relationship: voltage/frequency (V/f). 4) Back-emf decreases as a motor slows down. 5) Current increases with reduced back-emf. Lets look at these complexities each in turn. If you drop the frequency the motor will slow down.

3 of 7

02/04/2012 12:26 PM

How to run 50 hz motor on 60 hz

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If you raise the frequency the motor will speed up. If the motor slows down it's cooling will drop (and at a faster rate then the slow down). If the motor speeds up its cooling will increase rapidly. If the frequency drops the V/Hz goes up. This means that the motor needs a larger magnetic circuit. Without it the magnetic circuit can saturate. This leads to a rapid increase in current draw and a corresponding large increase in temperature.(A motor's chief enemy) If the frequency increases the V/Hz drops. This is not a first order consideration. [The motor may have a worse power factor.] A motor is a device that 'wants' to turn at its designed speed, set by its designed operating frequency. It delivers the required horsepower(hp) the load needs when the load is spun at the motor's designed speed. Different loads change their hp demands in very different manners, depending on the type of load they are. If a motor's load increases for some reason the motor will be slowed, this means the back-emf drops, this causes the motor to draw more current. More current is where the motor gets more power to turn the heavier load. Here the prudent motor user makes sure that the motor is pulling less current then the motor's full load amperage(FLA) rating. If the load remains the same and the voltage is lowered the motor will draw more current to continue meeting the load's hp requirement. Remember the motor will still be running at the same speed since the frequency wasn't changed. So looking at the case shifting a 50Hz motor to 60Hz duty. a) It will turn 20% faster. b) The cooling will increase dramatically. c) The load's horsepower requirement will increase, possibly dramatically. d) The V/f will drop which will not cause a current draw increase. You should discuss what the load will do when sped up 20% with someone knowledgeable with that type of load. (Forum members are very knowledgeable in this aspect!) If the load can take the speed increase then run the load and promptly check the motor's current draw. If it is under the FLA you should have no other problems. Using a 60Hz motor in 50Hz duty. w) It will turn 20% slower. x) Cooling will drop dramatically. y) The load's horsepower requirements will drop, possibly dramatically. z) V/f will increase possibly causing a large increase in current draw. Make sure the load will still do what is required of it when running slower. For instance, a fan load would now move less air. Still enough? The cooling will reduce dramatically. Is it enough to matter? This depends on how the load has decreased. If the hp requirement dropped because the load has decreased the current will drop and less heat will be released internally. You would want to take temperature measurements until the motor reaches a steady state temperature running in its new frequency application. The motor's hp will drop because hp is a function of speed x torque. The motor's torque doesn't change but its speed has dropped so it is now a lower hp motor. If you change pulley sizes to return the load to its original speed your motor will likely be undersized, possibly seriously. Example: A 10 hp motor is now an 8 hp. The most serious issue is the V/f issue. The V/f will increase. Likely enough to cause a large increase in the motor's current. This coupled with the reduced cooling may cause rapid overheating. However the V/f problem can be fully mitigated! You reduce the voltage to the motor by the amount required to return the V/f back to its original value. This removes the hazard of excess current from an increased V/f. Example: A 60Hz 240Vac motor is going into 50Hz service. V/f = Y Hence: 240/60 = 4.0 So if Y x f = V then by plugging in the new frequency of 50 we see: 4.0 x 50 = V V = 200 Running the motor at 200V at 50Hz will remove the V/f problem. Another way to think of this is: New voltage = Old voltage x 50/60 New speed = Old speed x 50/60 New Horsepower = Old horsepower x 50/60 Note: This would instead be 60/50 for a 50 to 60 Hz conversion.

Single phase complications. Single phase motors must be assisted because single phase power does not have an inherent rotational aspect to it. This means an additional start winding is required to provide rotational starting torque. A common method for controlling power to this temporary winding during starting is a centrifugal switch mounted on the motor's rotating shaft. This switch is normally closed during start up. Once the motor achieves a certain speed during start up the switch opens de-powering the start winding. If a single phase motor is moved to a new frequency domain the operation of any rotational switch must be checked. A 60Hz motor in a 50Hz application turning 20% slower may not achieve a speed sufficient to open the centrifugal switch. This would likely result in an immediate burn out. Likewise a 50Hz motor placed into 60Hz service may switch off the start winding at too low a speed for the motor to make the transition to running. Some single phase motors have start or run capacitors and some both. If the motor is being shifted from 50 to 60Hz then their effect will increase. This will usually pose no problem.

4 of 7

02/04/2012 12:26 PM

How to run 50 hz motor on 60 hz

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Alternatively, taking a motor from 60 to 50Hz will reduce the capacitor effects. This will result in possibly lower running and starting torques. This may mean the motor cannot successfully start its load or maintain running a load. A failure to start may result in a rapid burnout(seconds) so this should be carefully monitored initially. Larger capacitors or additional ones may be needed. Other points to note: With respect to the previously mentioned V/f ratio, 460/60 motors match 380/50 motors. Thanks for assitance by: waross jraef davidbeach Keith Cress Flamin Systems, Inc ----------------Barry Milton

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11-29-2009,

02:28 PM
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#13
Nov 2004 Webster Groves, MO 2,487

9100

Titanium

Everyone is assuming that it is an induction motor. A small lathe like that may well use a brush type so called universal motor that will run on AC or DC. If it is a universal motor, you probably will see no difference at all. See if it has brush holders , usually fairly large relative to the size of the motor, with plastic screw heads on each side. Does it have a speed control like a sewing machine? Bill

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11-29-2009,

03:11 PM

#14
Join Date: Location: Posts: Apr 2005 Benton, IL USA 4,404

precisionworks
Diamond

Some info here: http://www.lathes.co.uk/bergeon/page4.html It certainly could be a universal motor, as the speed is resistance controlled. ----------Barry Milton

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11-29-2009,

07:21 PM

#15
Join Date: Location: Posts: Jun 2001 St Louis 10,044

JST

Diamond

Originally Posted by 9100

Everyone is assuming that it is an induction motor. A small lathe like that may well use a brush type so called universal motor that will run on AC or DC. If it is a universal motor, you probably will see no difference at all. See if it has brush holders , usually fairly large relative to the size of the motor, with plastic screw heads on each side. Does it have a speed control like a sewing machine? Bill

The V/Hz effect will be smaller for a universal motor. Any V/Hz effects that remain will probably be reflected in

5 of 7

02/04/2012 12:26 PM

How to run 50 hz motor on 60 hz

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/transformers-phase-converte...

a speed change, as with a drop of frequency, any voltage that was expected to be dropped across the impedance will now have to be made up by back EMF. That would cause a possible speed increase going from 60 to 50. Conversely, going from 50 to 60, there will be more drop in impedances, and less needed in back EMF, so going 50 to 60, some decrease of speed should be expected. might be minimal. Note that the speed change is inverse to the induction motor change

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11-29-2009,

10:04 PM
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#16
Oct 2004 LeClaire, Ia 2,281

DaveKamp
Titanium

Hmmm...
For what it's worth... I run a 60hz 1725rpm motor at any point from 15hz to 225 hz, and it hasn't burned up yet. Now, I did yank the mechanical fan, and replaced it with a Muffin fan... and of course, this is driven off a VFD, not directly from line... but it hasn't burned out yet. I'm pretty darned positively certain that you'll be just fine, as long as you remove the old 50hz plug, and install a new 60hz plug... and keep your fingers out of the circuit, 'cause if you get between the leads, it REALLY Hz!

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11-30-2009,

07:26 AM
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#17
Nov 2004 Webster Groves, MO 2,487

9100
Titanium

The motor shown in the link appears to have a brush on the top left. Also, if it is turning 6000 RPM, it isn't a 50 cycle induction motor. JST is correct that there may be a small difference. My out is that I said that he probably would not see a difference, not that there wouldn't be any. Perhaps I should have added an additional fudge word like "significant", but whatever, it will probably do fine. Also, should run on 120 V 60 cycles without a transformer at reduced speed, but useable and not causing any harm. Bill Edit- DaveKamp, the VFD should have a variable voltage function to reduce the voltage when the frequency is lower than 60 cycles. Running full voltage at 1/4 frequency is almost certain disaster.

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11-30-2009,

07:06 PM

#18
Join Date: Location: Posts: Jun 2001 St Louis 10,044

JST

Diamond

Specifically, VFDs run "V/Hz" mode (or choice of vector for newer ones). In V/Hz mode, the effective volts are specifically changed with frequency to conform to a 'constant volts/hz curve". That means the VFD automatically compensates for a half frequency by reducing the volts to half, making the volts per Hz equal to full frequency full voltage (but reducing power obviously). Normally they can't increase volts above full, so after full nominal speed, they change frequency only. But by using a double voltage VFD, like a 480 with a 240 motor, you can get 2x power at 2x speed from same motor, running 120 Hz at 480V (if the insulation will take it).

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02/04/2012 12:26 PM