BEHIND THE HEADLINES Interview of Chris Barbic, Superintendent of Achievement School District Aired February 22, 2013 Barnes:

An interview with the man charged with fixing the states failing schools. Tonight on Behind the Headlines. [Introduction] Barnes: Im Eric Barnes, publisher of the Memphis Daily News. Thanks for joining us. Were joined tonight by Eleanor Boudreau, correspondent with WKNO-FM radio, Chris Barbic, superintendent of the Achievement School District, thank you for being here. Barbic: Thanks for having me. Barnes: And Bill Dries, reporter with the Memphis Daily News. Um, thanks for being here. Um, you are superintendent of the Achievement School District, which I would define, but Im going to give you a chance to define it better than I do, but, the, the states effort, the new effort that came in with uh, Governor Haslam to take care of failing schools across the state, um a big number of those, what, some 68 out of 85 are in Memphis. Tell me, though, what is an Achievement School District and whats your role? Barbic: Sure. So the Achievement School District really came out of the Race to the Top application, which actually pre-dated, uh, Governor Haslam. That was done in the Bredesen administration. It was the states application to do lots of education reform statewide, um, and one of the things that was in the application that Tennessee won and got a five hundred million dollar federal grant to implement was what do we do about those just persistently struggling schools, um, the, the schools that year after year, um, were seeing just, you know, abysmal academic performance? Uh, we define that as the bottom five percent of the schools in the state. Thats 85 campuses statewide. Um, and the majority of those schools like you mentioned, 68 of the 85 schools are here in Memphis. Barnes: And youve, you, I think took the job a year ago, is that about right?

Barbic: Ive been here eighteen months. Barnes: Eighteen months. And youve started with which schools and how many schools in Memphis, and give us a sense of the, um, the, uh, the expansion plans, and well talk about some of the specific successes and so on so far. Barbic: Sure. So, uh. We spent the first year just really, you know, getting a team together, getting a plan together, and were in the middle of our first year of actually operating schools. So, we have six schools in the Achievement School District, five of those schools are here in Memphis and we have one school in Nashville. Of the six, and part of what we can do, we can either run the school ourselves, um, and become basically the district for that school or we have the ability to authorize charter schools. And so, of the six, um, three of the schools are schools that were running. All three of those schools are in Frayser, that are in the Frayser High School feeder pattern, so two elementary schools, Corning Elementary and Frayser Elementary, and then Westside Middle. So the two elementary schools that feed into Westside are the three schools that were running. And then weve also, um, authorized three charter schools, two charters here in Memphis and one charter school in Nashville. And the two charters, one is Cornerstone Prep, which is, uh, running in Lester Elementary serving grades preK through three. And then we started, uh, Gordon, uh, Science and Arts Academy with Gestalt Community Schools which runs a couple of schools here in Memphis. And theyre serving the middle school students zoned to Humes Middle School, but doing it right now on the Gordon Elementary School campus. Barnes: Now Im going to come back to Humes and Gordon in a second. But just a quick, youll add how many schools in next year? Barbic: Next year we plan to add ten schools. Two that well run ourselves, so two more in Frayser. And then we will have eight charter schools operating, uh, next year. And all ten of those schools will be in Memphis. Barnes: And, and at what point would you have the full sixty-eight truly within, under your umbrella? Barbic: Well, well, weve, were projected out about another year, and we did this plan when I first got here, so well spend some, some time this summer kind
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of revamping and re-looking at that. But our goal in fourteen fifteen [2014-15] would be to ramp up to about thirty-five schools, and we expect, you know, eighty to eighty-five percent of those schools to be here in Memphis since thats where the majority of the schools are. Barnes: Yeah. Bill. Dries: Um, lets talk about Gordon for a second because youre, youre looking at moving Gordon out of the school where you co-exist with the conventional elementary school into Humes Middle School. And the city, the, the county-wide school board has approved an optional school for Humes Middle School. Ah, so how are those talks going? Are you at cross-purposes? Or are we looking at a, a, building that is big enough for both of those, these institutions? Barbic: Yup. So we think we are looking at a building that, that allows us to do both, so this can be not an either-or but a both-and, and just a little history. So, you know, we, we approved and authorized, um, Gestalt to run a school in the Humes neighborhood last year. Um, you know, this was, you know, after there were already plans and talks to do something with Humes. And we wanted to, you know, try and develop a good working relationship, you know, with Dr. Cash because at this point, you know, he was still here. And, you know, talked about Gordon. And the thought was that eventually, you know, that was one of the schools that the district was looking to potentially close. And so the idea would be, you know, they would start at Gordon next year and there would be room for them to expand. The, the challenge is that Gordon Elementary School is not an ASD-eligible school, so we dont have any control over what the district does to, with that school. So, if youll remember earlier this year, they announced they were going to close the school because of the ASD, and we just wanted to be clear that, you know, anything that the district did around Gordon Elementary School was a district decision because its not, its not a bottom five percent school. And if they chose to close it, that was their decision, and when they chose not to, and then put something in Humes that they kind of left, there, there was nowhere for the middle school neighborhood kids to go. They couldnt expand in Gordon because there wasnt enough room for them to go there. And if they turned the whole building of Humes into a performing arts school, youre going to have to bus the kids, the middle school students that live in the neighborhood, to another building. So thats when we went back and said, look, you know, we cant, we
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cant have a place, we gotta have place for these guys to go to school. So, you know, Humes has capacity for anywhere from eleven to thirteen hundred kids. We feel like theres room to put, um, the, the Gordon program back at Humes to serve the four hundred fifty, five hundred kids that would potentially be in that middle school program from that attendance zone, and also have plenty of space for, for the performing arts school. So I think were pretty close to having that done. We had a good conversation last week. I have a meeting, actually this afternoon um, with, ah, with Superintendent Hopson, some of the folks on the administration there. Dries: If, is there a, uh, could this be a, an, a legal test of the ASDs authority? Because I think, it, it, Dorsey Hopson, who is the former General Counsel, of course, for the school system, and he said, if push comes to shove here, I think we can make an argument that, that we can close it and reopen it as an optional school. I think youve expressed kind of a different opinion, that the ASD can do this, can take Humes if they, if they want to. Barbic: Yeah, I mean, Im hoping it doesnt come to that. But if it does, I mean, were, were pretty confident that, that, you know, the way the law reads is we were essentially serving the Humes students before that school was closed. And even if the school is closed, um, the schools stay put until the list gets re-run every three years. And this is to, you know, and Im not suggesting that this is what the district is doing, but, I mean, we could see a situation where districts decide to close schools, or, you know, change grade configurations, or change attendance boundaries as ways to get around, you know, being taken into the ASD. And we dont, so we wanted to make sure that the law was very clear that there was no way for those sorts of things to happen, and again, not suggesting thats what MCS is doing. But, hypothetically, you could see superintendents and districts that may want to do those things. So what were saying is when the list was, came out, Humes was on the list. And until that list is re-run, we have a legal authority to serve the kids that go to that school, and to do it with, with the Humes facility. Barnes: Is, is, is that, that specific school, and that specific, you know, disagreement, or difference of, of perception, or however you want to put it with the school system, is that typical of your interactions with the school system? Or is that one, the one example of a difference of opinion? I mean, how is that
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Barbic: Thats a great question. I think overall its gone very well. I mean, if you wouldve asked me when I started, I was expecting a pretty confrontational relationship and I think that, um, you know, everybody in the district, um, MCS, you know, the folks that were starting to get to work with now in Shelby County, have handled themselves incredibly professionally, um, really, you know it sounds clich, but really tried to put, you know, the students interests first. And that doesnt mean that there havent been times where weve disagreed and butted heads, but, you know, its been a little bit of an arranged marriage so to speak. And when those things happen, we sit down and work them out. Barnes: Because to some extent, to put it, you know, maybe, callously, I mean, its basically the state saying you guys, MCS, couldnt fix this, couldnt serve these students well, werent spending the money wisely, were going to hand it to Mr. Barbic here. Barbic: Well, I think its a situation where, you know, these, you know, were six months into it, into this work. This is tough work, you know, and I think that, you know, we, weve recognized how hard it is. And I like to think more of it as, were bringing some more resources and people to the table, and if we can work together to bring these, to bring the schools to a place where we all want them to be, you know, lets not spend our time bickering. Lets spend our time sitting down and figuring out how we can work together. I mean, lets face it, theres a one-hundred and sixty eight million dollar shortfall in the budget, um, if we can, you know, bring resources together, and work together, and allocate resources in the most strategic manner possible to serve all of the schools, um, that doesnt just help us, that helps the district, that helps the new merged system, and I think theres a place for all of us at the table to do that. Boudreau: Yeah. A lot of your strategy seems to be extend the school day, um, by, you know, an hour and a half, and have this incredibly intensive hiring process that emphasizes just how hard this work is going to be, you know, with the teachers that youre thinking about hiring. And Im wondering, how, how many of the, those lessons do you think can be applied to the Memphis City School district or what will become the merged, you know, Shelby County School district? Because it takes a lot to extend the school day, and ask everybody to work extra hours.
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Barbic: Yeah. Um, well, I think its way too early to say we have any lessons learned that can be applied anywhere because were still pretty early in, and, you know, were, were approaching this with, uh, you know, the right degree of, um, humility until we actually get some results. So, you know, I think youre, youre right. I mean, this is tough work, its hard work. And I think, you know, uh, could someone spend their entire career in turnaround environment? I think theres some people that could, but this is, this is intense work. I mean, its, it would be like asking a doctor to spend their whole career in the ER. I mean, that, thats just it, its intense, you know, day in, day out work. And Im not sure every doctor wants to spend their whole career in the ER. I mean, this is a situation where, you know, maybe you have someone coming in for five, six, seven years, um, and this is, this is the kind of work that they want to do. But I think its too early to say, you know, long term, sustainability in an environment like this, if thats A.) possible, or even should be possible. And I think as we get further in to this and see, you know, the kind of sustainability that, that, that folks can, you know, coming into this work can, can manage over time, then, then I think well learn a lot more. But you know, especially this time of year, I mean, February is the, its the longest shortest month of the school year. I mean, its just a tough, tough time of year. And, you know, I would be lying to you if I didnt tell you our folks werent feeling that, but, I mean, weve got, you know, Im in the schools on a weekly basis. We have, we have incredible people day-in, day-out who are just rolling up their sleeves, and doing really challenging work. And, you know, were out right now trying to recruit another, another group to come in and serve the two more schools that were going to be working in next year. Barnes: Go ahead, Eleanor. Boudreau: Yeah, I guess, I, Ive met a lot of your teachers, and every time, you know, I interact with your schools or your teachers, I am struck by how, I guess, intense that, you know, these people are. But, um, you know, and again, the extra hours, when youre looking at ramping that up, where all, where are all these hires going to come from, if you go from, you know, six schools this year to thirty-five, even more, down the road? Barbic: Well, I think thats a great question. I think, you know, short term, we have to try and incentivize folks that are already here to want to work in, in
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schools where kids need them most. So really trying to find the best and brightest people here in Memphis, um, or in the region who want to roll up their sleeves and do this work. I think, longer term, we have to do two things. One, weve got to really try and develop pipelines of teachers, um, you know, alternative pipelines, so really tapping into the ones that are already there but figuring out how we, you know, bring in different types of teacher training programs that are maybe more specific to turnaround work. Um, were talking to a group right now called Relay Graduate School of Education, which works in a couple of areas, uh, regions around the country, um, to possibly come to Tennessee, um, and help us with this work. Um, and then I think weve got to cr-, you know, weve got to import some folks. Weve got to, you know, really make Memphis sort of seen as Teacher Town. You know, a place where, you know, teachers want to come and live and work, and we know, theres a branding campaign, and a recruitment campaign that were working with some folks around the city, its called Teach 901. They have a website, and were trying to, uh, to really, you know, brand Memphis as Teacher Town. This is a place where, you know, on a seventy, eighty, ninety thousand-dollar salary, which is what were paying our best teachers, um, or will be paying our best teachers, you know, thats, thats a pretty good income in, in Memphis with, with the cost of living here is. I mean, something just came out a week ago that said that third best cost of living in the country, and so we want to really try and attract people from other places that want to come here and work. Barnes: Logistically, how does that work? Just so people understand. Your, you go in and take over a school, there are teachers in there, existing. Do you, you are under no pressure to continue to use those teachers? You can turn over the entire staff if you want? Barbic: Yes, so the way that that relationship works, we say, look, were, were a different employer, so were not, were not MCS. And so you can certainly apply for a position with us, if you want to come work with us. It would be like, you know, a teacher from MCS to Shelby County, you know, they, they go through an application process. They, they have the ability to choose that, and then, we, we have, you know, the freedom to make decisions around how many of those teachers we keep.

Barnes: And what, roughly what percentage of teachers do you end up keeping? Or end up applying, reapply, and are accepted into the ASD environment? Barbic: So this last year, for the three current schools that were running right now, because the charters, again, they have their own, they have their own processes. But for the three schools that were running, we had roughly, I think eighty percent of the teachers choose not to apply. So only about twenty percent of the teachers applied. Barnes: Oh, really? Even applied? Okay. Barbic: Um, and thats when we said, look, we cant offer somebody a job that doesnt apply with us. Um, and then, of that twenty percent, we actually made job offers to about three quarters of those teachers. Barnes: And the other thing, when we talk about teachers and hiring, and for some people, this is, you know, a good thing, so and so, or a bad thing, I just am curious, unions. I mean, are, are the teachers who work for the ASD unionized? Barbic: No. And, you know, really with a lot of the changes that have happened, you know, in the last couple of years, through legislation. I mean, theres no collective bargaining, tenure has been reformed, um, you know, I think the influence and power of teachers unions, not just in the Achievement School District, but across the state, is really a lot less than it was three, four, five years ago. Barnes: Okay. Bill. Dries: Um, Chris, you, youve, youve had several meetings. I think youve got one this weekend with the parents over at Cornerstone, which used to be Lester, uh, in, in Binghampton. How are things going over there? Because that relationship kind of got off to a rough start when, with the charter operator. Barbic: I think its, I think weve turned a page. I mean, the, the hearing this weekends being, um, done by G. A. Hardaway. And I think, you know, Dr. Herentons going to be there as well. So theyve called the meeting, you know. Im going to be there as a member of the audience, you know, curious listening.
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Um, you know, making sure that there isnt any new feedback. I mean, no, nothings changed in terms of there, you know, theres no new allegations. Theres no, you know, um, so, you know, weve, thisll be the third meeting weve had. I think this meeting, um, you know, I hope its a productive one. Again, theres nothing new to report or new to talk about, so, you know, its another opportunity for folks to, to, I guess discuss their concerns and if theres any new ones, then well follow up on those. I think, you know, what really changed the conversation was, um, the parents who are at Cornerstone really starting to speak up and say, look, we, were happy. You know, weve got a lot of parents that the majority of the parents at the school, um, are happy and a lot of the folks that were, you know, had concerns about the school werent parents of kids, you know. It was folks in the community, some of them didnt even live in the community, send their kids to private school. So when you really start to sit down and talk to parents in the school, um, that, thats our stakeholder and thats our customer. And we certainly dont want to ignore, um, you know, the concerns of folks in the community, and, and, you know what, Lisa, in her article, and weve said, look, could we have done a better job in how we entered the community of Binghampton? Absolutely. And those lessons will get, you know, then learned, and will be applied moving forward. But, I really hope now the conversation moves towards how can we work together, how can we make this a solutionoriented conversation and not just be another repeat of the things that have already happened, because I feel like weve, we, weve, weve heard that and Ive had a dozen meetings with folks in the community since that initial meeting in December. And I hope we can start to focus on solutions now. Dries: The, uh, the, the competition, uh, thats happened in the first school year of, of this operation. I know you and Dr. Cash had talked about, uh, some of the give and take in that. And my sense in, in talking with him is, is that it was a friendly competition, but it was also a pretty spirited competition because you are competing for some of the same teachers who, obviously, are head and shoulders above what, what you might see in most of the applicants there. So, uh, has the competitive element of this been more intense or less intense than you thought it was going to be? Barbic: I, I think its been appropriate. I mean, look, I really developed a, I really enjoyed working with Dr. Cash. And, you know, I mean, I know folks around the city have varying opinions. We had a great relationship, um, you know, I can, I
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consider him a friend. You know, I sent him several notes after, um, after his decision to, to step down and just wished him the best. So, I think, you know, Memphis was lucky to have him. I think a lot of good work was done in his administration, and I enjoyed working with him. Um, you know, were developing a really good working relationship with, ah, with John, um, and with Dorsey, and so, um, I think, you know, it, its been coop-etition. Theyre frienemies or however you want to say it, but I think its been an appropriate level and, um, like I said before, I think everyones handled themselves in a really professional way under some pretty unique and sometimes difficult circumstances. Barnes: I want to go ahead and note that thats the first time that someone has said frienemies on this show in our two-and-a-half year history. [Laughing.] Um, along those lines, what, charter schools, uh, people have varying opinions about charter schools, but thats going to be a big part of how you expand. Some schools you take over, you send some, you bring in charter operators. Um, how, what is the advantage of charters? Um, is that a solution? Some people point to charter schools, and say thats the future of, not just, um, low-performing schools, but all public schools. You come from a background of some very successful, um, charter schools in Houston. Um, that were serving really underserved kids, and kids that werent going to college and suddenly they were. Um, what role does charters, do charters have going forward? Barbic: So I dont think its the answer, I think its part of the answer. I think, um, you know, where I hope we can shift the conversation as a community, and really as a state, and as a country, if you will, is less about governance and what type of school it is and really about quality. So, I mean, if you talk to parents, they could care less, you know, what the governance model is for their school. What they care about is, is there a good teacher in the classroom, is the principal accessible, and is this a good school. And they dont, they could care less whether its a charter school, or its a traditional public school, or a private school. And I think, as a community, we need to be focused on, is this a good school or not, and is this a quality school, and if its quality then we need more of that, and if its not, then we need less of it. And, really get, you know, less hung up on what type of school it is. I think theres a place for quality charters. Look, theres great traditional public schools in Memphis and in Shelby County. And, you know, we need to give the principals in those schools the autonomy. And, you know, theres, theres great private schools serving low income kids, and if theres a way for those
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schools to grow as well, too, you know. And I think, as a city and as a state, we need to be thinking about how we replicate and increase success, and how we figure out how to turn around and replace low-performing schools. And I think charters are part of that. Boudreau: So the incredibly ambitious goal of your district is to take schools that are among the bottom five percent and move them to the top twenty-five percent in the next five years. And, um, thats a somewhat unique, you know, formulation to your district here in Tennessee. So what happens, you know, five years down the line if you dont make that goal? Do you pack up and leave? Do you say its a success if the test scores go up? Um, do you change everything youre doing? Barbic: Yeah, thats a good question. So, um, so Ill give you kind of what the law says happens, and then kind of how we, how were interpreting it, trying to implement that. So, at the end of five years, for the schools that were running, what, one of three things happens. And this is regardless of whether its successful or not, and then well talk about, you know, hopefully the success that were going to have. Um, one is we give the school back to the district. So well say, look weve had it for five years, and, and the ASD was never, the intention was never for us to run the schools permanently. It was five years. We can either give the school back, secondly, theres a parent-trigger law that says that if 60% of the parents would like to keep the school in the Achievement School District, that can happen, so, you know, well honor that parent, you know, voice and request, and the school could stay in the ASD if the parents want it. Third, is we could actually convert the school to a charter school in that five year period. And, and, even if the school is a charter school, whether its one that we potentially convert, or the ones that were authorizing, you know, right from the beginning, like the two that I mentioned earlier, thats still only, its a ten year charter and at the end of the ten years the authorizing responsibility shifts back to local control. So, in every scenario, the, the intent and goal is, that this goes back to local control. You know, we hope that our schools are successful within that five years. The list of priority schools gets re-run every three, and our hope is that, you know, for the that schools were in right now, five years later, those schools are in the top twenty-five percent in five years. You know, well be monitoring those schools every, you know, we do, uh, school quality reviews every year. Um, were looking at results, and if it looks like things arent going, um, you know, the way we want,
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then, um, we can replace the operator. We can replace the charter with a different charter, we can replace ourselves with a charter. Um, and so the whole point, like I said, is to be focused on quality and not type of school. You know, we, we think that were moving the schools in the right direction that theyre going to get where they need to go. Um, if theyre not, then, then well replace the operators, and quite frankly, Ill probably get replaced, too. So, and, were all, were all under, you know, some, some big goals. Barnes: You dont have tenure, you dont have sort of a union arrangement? [interrupting] Barbic: No, I dont get tenure, I dont, um. Barnes: You mentioned private schools, and we have just four minutes left on the show, so were going to run through a couple of things. Theres a voucher bill, um, opportunity scholarship, whatever you want to call it, but basically, a voucher that would go, as its framed right now, uh, a bill that would give lower, um, uh, income folks, people in the bottom five-percent schools, maybe, a voucher to go to private schools. Are you directly involved with the voucher program at all? Barbic: Im not. I mean, the vouchers are directed at kids that are in ASD-eligible schools, but we wouldnt be managing that program, wed have no affiliation. Barnes: Right. Barbic: It would just be an option, if its passed, for those parents to, to opt into one of those schools. Barnes: How is it, you also mentioned, the, the salaries and the, the money, and bringing more resources to the problem, how does the money flow, if we can say, you know, I pay property taxes in the City of Memphis or the, you know, Shelby County, um, then theres money that comes from the state. Is it, do you guys take the money that would have otherwise gone to the kids in that failing school or do you bring extra dollars to it? Barbic: The dollar, the dollar. [interrupting] A little bit of both. So, the dollar, the per-pupil dollars follow the students. So, if a student is now in the ASD, the
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state and local dollars that the district would have received to educate those kids, since were now educating them, we receive. Um, we are bringing some, some federal dollars that are School Improvement Grant dollars, um, you know, for the next year and a half, that theres some Race to the Top dollars that were, that were bringing to the table as a way to try and, you know Barnes: Yeah. Barbic: - turbo-boost, at least in these early years the turnaround in the schools. Barnes: Okay. Barbic: But over time, you know, our plan is to be sustainable on the per-pupil dollars, state, local, and federal that we receive. Barnes: Another question, just a logistical question, when you take over a school, are you also in charge of the physical plant? I mean, is it everything? Or is MCS still take care of the physical plant? Barbic: Were responsible. We have shared service agreements with the districts, that were paying them for things like maintenance, and food, and transportation. Um, and were paying them on a per-student basis for some of those services. Barnes: Another thing that you mentioned, and we were talking before the show, you talked about as you ramping up, youre hiring more people, youre based in Nashville, I mean, the Department of Education is where, the State Department of Education is ultimately who employs you, I guess, right? But that youre going to shift more staff to Memphis? Barbic: We are. Barnes: Talk a little bit about that, and I think, to some people, thats a welcome, um, development because they think all these things come on down from Nashville Barbic: Sure

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Barnes: but people dont necessarily understand the, the make-up of Memphis. And so more of your state employees in the Achievement School District, people in the administration and so on, will be based here? Barbic: Right, were in the process of shifting some employees here. We have about fifteen people on the ground providing support to, to our schools. Um, you know, even though I live in Nashville, Im here three days a week. So, uh, Im actually here more, um, during the work week than I am in Nashville, and, um, so, yeah, I mean, our goal is to shrink the size of the Nashville office and, and shift employees here, and, and, in general, just to keep the office lean to begin with. I mean, were not looking to create a big, another big central office bureaucracy, period. But for the folks that we do have on our team, we want as many of them closest to where the, the kids and students and teachers are and provide that support. And right now, that, thats here in Memphis based on the number of schools. Barnes: And, just, I mean, sort of thirty seconds, you know, when you go into some of these schools, eh, there must be some things that are being done right. I mean, theyre in the failing, or theyre in the failing, theyre in the bottom five percent, but you look in there. I mean, what kind of things do you guys go in and say, wow, thats a great thing thats happening there that we want to take advantage of. Or is it that you walk in, and theyre really disaster zones, and theres nothing going well? Barbic: No, theres good things happening in the schools, I mean, I think, in, in every one of these schools, youre seeing just heroic efforts by people in the school, whether its teachers, or, um, folks on the administrative team who are working really hard, and, and weve, weve see and recognize those people and they stand out, you know, Day One, when you step in, in the building. Barnes: Alright, well, thank you then. Were out of time. Thank you for being here, Chris Barbic. Barbic: Appreciate it. Barnes: Thank you, Eleanor. Thank you, Bill. Thank you, and thank you for joining us. Join us again next week. Good night.
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