Mengi V Hermitage 2102 Trial Transcript

MENGI v HERMITAGE
8 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 331]
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IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
Claim No: HQ10D04585
Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London WC2A 2LL Thursday, 8th November 2012 Before: MR. JUSTICE BEAN
NGUMA-PRICE 2 MR. RAMPTON: I am sorry, my Lord, my page 2 is a Guardian 3 article, certainly.

1 4 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: My page 2 is a Nipashe article. 5 MR. RAMPTON: Sorry, my page 2 is a Nipashe article. 1(a) is a 6 Guardian article, so maybe he is looking at the wrong article. 7 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Which are we on, Mr. Price? 8 MR. PRICE: Page 2. 9 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Page 2, Nipashe. 10 MR. PRICE: I am not sure you are looking at page 2, Mr. Nguma? 11 A. I am. Nipashe. 12 Q. Right. Does it have the headline, "Fake cheque sends British 13 investor to court"? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. This is an article about Mr. Benjamin Mengi, who at about this 16 time was your client? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you read this article? 19 A. I did not read it. 20 Q. You did not read it? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Are you sure of that? 23 A. Yes, I am sure. 24 Q. Look at the next one, the Guardian, "Britain charged over dud 25 cheque," page 3. Did you see that?
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BETWEEN:
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REGINALD MENGI Claimant -andSARAH HERMITAGE Defendant ----------
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(Transcript of the Stenograph/Shorthand Notes of Marten Walsh Cherer Ltd., 1st Floor, Quality House, 6-9 Quality Court, Chancery Lane, London WC2A 1HP. Telephone No: 020 7067 2900. email - info@martenwalshcherer.com) ---------MR. RICHARD RAMPTON QC and MR. AIDAN EARDLEY (instructed by Whitman Breed) appeared for the Claimant.
MR. JAMES PRICE QC and MR. JONATHAN BARNES (instructed by Carter-Ruck) appeared for the Defendant. ---------PROCEEDINGS EVIDENCE DAY 3 24 ---------25
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NGUMA-PRICE I did not read it. Are you sure? I am sure. If you look at page 5, this is the Guardian, "Britain facing court charges not listed as investor," page 5. A. I did not read it either. Q. Are you sure about that? A. I am sure. Q. Page 6, 3rd January, Nipashe, "Investor given seven days to pay seven million." This is about Mr. Middleton allegedly failing to pay contributions for months for his employees, which he had collected and, indeed, not paying his employees. Did you see that article? A. I did not read it. I did not. I am sure. Q. You are sure? A. Yes. Q. What about page 8? "Moshi businessman takes back coffee plantation." You must have read that article. You can see, it is a transcript of it at page 8(a. This is your client getting back the plantation that is in dispute with Mr. Middleton. You must have known about this. A. I did not read it. Q. Did you ---A. I am sure I did not. A. Q. A. Q.
1 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PRICE (continued) 3 Q. Mr. Nguma, did you, at around the time that they were 4 published, see the articles in Nipashe and the Guardian of 5 November 2005 and January 2006? Do you want to be referred to 6 those articles so that you can look at them? 7 A. Okay, yes. 8 Q. Do you remember whether you saw them? 9 A. Which articles? 10 Q. If you take file 3, which is on top of the box on your right. 11 You might like to get rid of those other two files -- it is up 12 to you. I shall need file 2 again quite soon, but I think can 13 you get rid of that one. If you go to the first tab and start 14 on page 2. Do you generally read Nipashe and the Guardian? 15 A. I am not an avid reader of newspapers. 16 Q. What about your own newspapers of the company of which you are 17 a director? 18 A. Sorry? 19 Q. What about your own newspapers, the ones published by the 20 Guardian Ltd, of which you are the senior director? 21 A. Sometimes. 22 Q. Just look at page 2. This is about Benjamin Mengi, do you 23 see, and about Mr. Middleton. This was, it was about this 24 time that you started acting for Benjamin Mengi, was it not? 25
AGAPITUS NGUMA RECALLED
[1] (Pages 329 to 332)

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MENGI v HERMITAGE
8 NOVEMBER 2012 [Page 333]
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NGUMA-PRICE Did you learn about it? About the article? Yes. No. Absolutely ignorant that all this stuff about your client was being published in your newspaper. Are you sure? A. I did not, I am sure. Q. Again, on page 9, Nipashe, 19th January, the legal investor is the Fiona company. That was your client's company, was it not? A. Yes. Q. Did you read that article? A. I read this because it has got Fiona at the top. Q. Right. So you just looked at the headline and if it was apparently about the Silverdale Farm dispute you did not bother to read it, but if it mentioned your client's company, you did? A. I have not seen any with the headline "Silverdale". Q. I am sorry? A. I have not seen any with the headline "Silverdale". Q. All of these articles, you would only need to look into the first sentence of the article, you can see it is about the Silverdale dispute and Mr. Middleton. A. You are right by saying I read the headlines. I have not seen Q. A. Q. A. Q.
NGUMA-PRICE 2 Q. It is highly supportive of your client, Benjamin Mengi, is it 3 not?

1 4 A. It is. 5 Q. It is fair to say that it is destructive of the reputation of 6 Mr. Stewart Middleton? 7 A. It supports Benjamin Mengi. 8 Q. Just answer the question: it is perfectly clear, Mr. Nguma, 9 to you, as an experienced lawyer, that it is wholly 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
destructive of the reputation of Mr. Stewart Middleton. You can surely accept that? A. No. Q. You tell me why it should not be. Do you see what it says on page 10, the third paragraph? "He, the Secretary of the Board, said that the remainder of the farm had been neglected and turned to bush." The suggestion is that Mr. Middleton had just let it go back to bush. That is destructive to his reputation, is it not? A. That could be a matter of fact. I would not know if that really happened. Q. You know the difference; something can be destructive of your reputation whether it is true or false, can it not? Your reputation can be destroyed by matters that are true as well as matters that are false. A. If I did what is being alleged?
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NGUMA-PRICE 2 Q. If someone accuses you of murder, it destroys your reputation, 3 whether it is true or false, does it not?
1 4 A. If I am a murderer, does it destroy my reputation? 5 Q. Yes, it does, but it rightly destroys your reputation; that is 6 the difference. Is that not right? 7 A. It is not right. 8 Q. Okay. You can see that this article was damaging to 9 Mr. Middleton's reputation. It says, in the fourth paragraph 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
NGUMA-PRICE any headlines on Silverdale.
3 Q. Okay. So you read that article? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. That article says, "Members of the Primary Societies have said 6 7
that the legal investor is Fiona." You must have been pleased to read that on your client's behalf?
8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Then it, right in the middle of the page, there is a paragraph 10 11 12 13
that begins, "They also made a statement saying they did not recognise British citizen, Stewart Middleton, as an investor. They said the legal investor was the company of Fiona, owned by a prominent Moshi businessman." Did you read all this?
14 A. Can you give me time to read this? 15 Q. Yes, did you read it at the time. 16 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: You may want to look at it to remind yourself 17
of what it says.
18 MR. PRICE: Yes. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Have you read that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you read that at the time? 23 A. Sorry? 24 Q. Did you read it at the time that it was published? 25 A. Yes.
on that page, "The farm has been turned to bush." In the middle of the page, "75 trees had been harvested for timber without the permission of the Board." That is an allegation of breach of contract and theft, effectively. A. I was not at the farm. I had not seen the farm. It could have been. Q. However, it is very damaging ---A. How would I know? Q. Yes, but it is very damaging to Mr. Middleton's reputation, is it not? A. If it had been left to become a bush, as is alleged. Q. It says that the coffee treatment factory and the building for drying coffee had been demolished. It is accusing Mr. Middleton of laying waste to the farm, is it not? A. It could have been demolished. I do not know. I could not have known.
[2] (Pages 333 to 336)

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NGUMA-PRICE Q. If one looks at the paragraph just above the lower hole, "Mr. Lima said that this destruction had taken place between 2004/2005, while the farm was under the supervision of Mr. Middleton." Then it talks of the charges, the fake cheque and conspiring to forge the contract while aware that it was not their property. You knew that those charges had been dismissed, did you not, Mr. Nguma? A. Which charges? Q. Just look at the charges that are reported in the last two paragraphs on page 10. A. Does it say so here? Q. Just look at the two last paragraphs on page 10. A. It does not say anywhere that the charges were dismissed. Q. No, it does not. It records two charges; one of presenting a fake cheque ---A. Yes. Q. And two, of conspiring to forge a contract, along with Mr. Ngoya, while aware that it was not their property. A. Yes. Q. You knew that those charges had, in fact, been dismissed, did you not? A. No, I did not know. Q. Did you ever discuss any of this with your client,
1 3 4
NGUMA-PRICE will find it in file 2, which you have put on the top of the box to your right.
2 Q. Can I take you back to your witness statement, Mr. Nguma? You
5 A. File 2? 6 Q. File 2, which is on the top of the box on your right. Go to 7 8 9
tab 2, paragraph 23. Here you are dealing with the letters that Ms. Hermitage and Mr. Middleton wrote to the Managing Editor of the Guardian. Do you have paragraph 23?
10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Here you are dealing with the letters that Ms. Hermitage and 12 13
Mr. Middleton wrote to the Managing Editor of the Guardian and to Mr. Mengi?
14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You say in paragraph (a) that you gave legal advice to TGL. 16 17
That is the company of which you were a director. Who did you give that advice to?
18 A. The Managing Director. 19 Q. Then if you look at (b), this is the letter of 25th March to 20 21 22
Mr. Mengi, "I considered the letter and gave advice to Reginald Mengi and the Managing Editor of the Guardian." Was that on the same occasion or a different occasion?
23 A. I gave legal advice to Reginald Mengi or the Managing Editor? 24 Q. You told my Lord a moment ago that the legal advice in (a) was 25
given to the Managing Director.
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NGUMA-PRICE 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. If you look at (b), you gave a legal advice to the 4 Managing Editor?
1 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Was that on the same occasion or a different occasion from the 7 occasion on which you gave advice to the Managing Director? 8 A. What do you mean, "on the same occasion"? 9 Q. Did they sit in front of you together while you gave them 10 legal advice? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Was it on separate occasions? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Separate occasions? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Which came first? 17 A. Reginald Mengi. 18 Q. You spoke to Reginald Mengi first? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Then you spoke to the Managing Director and the 21 Managing Editor separately? 22 A. Are you talking about (a) or (b). 23 Q. I am talking about (a) and (b) because in (a) you say that you 24 gave legal advice to TGL and you told my Lord a moment ago 25
NGUMA-PRICE Mr. Benjamin Mengi? A. The case I was handling was a case of defamation and I was not in any way concerned about other cases he had against the defendant. Q. It was a case of defamation which was an integral part of his campaign of harassment against Mr. Middleton, was it not? A. It was not. The complaints are in the actual complaint that I was handling. Q. How often did you speak to your client, Mr. Benjamin Mengi? A. In respect of what? Q. In respect of anything. He was your client from November 2005 for a period of well over a year. I think he is probably -- all legal matters came to an end when the Middleton's fled back to Europe in 2008. A. Yes. Q. Roughly how often did you speak to Mr. Benjamin Mengi? A. I would speak to him only in respect of this case and most probably just before a mention of the case. Q. You must have discussed with him the general problems that he was having, the dispute that he was having over Silverdale Farm? A. I knew there was a dispute. I did not have any reason to have a full account of what was happening. I knew there was a dispute.
that that was the Managing Director.
[3] (Pages 337 to 340)

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NGUMA-PRICE A. Yes. Q. If you look at (b), you gave advice to the Managing Editor. A. Yes, because this, with regard to the letter, that was written to Mr. Mengi. The letter in (a) is the letter that was addressed to the Managing Editor? A. Is the Managing Director a different person from the Managing Editor? A. Yes. Q. Right. Now you tell my Lord, did you speak to the Managing Director and the Managing Editor separately or together? A. I spoke to them separately because I did not hold a meeting with them. Q. You spoke to them on the telephone, separately? A. Yes. Q. Did they ring you or did you ring them? A. I did. Q. You rang? A. Yes. Q. You told my Lord yesterday, in answer to a question from Mr. Rampton, that what you said was that because you were acting for Benjamin Mengi against the Middletons, you had a conflict of interest and you could not advise them. Is that right?
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
NGUMA-PRICE that considers legal advice. MR. PRICE: What you said -- let us not chop words, Mr. Nguma -- was, "I cannot give you legal advice because I have a conflict of interest." A. Yes. Q. You did not give them legal advice, did you? A. No. Q. What you say there is highly misleading, is it not? A. Yes. Q. You say, "In line with this routine...." That is designed to give the court the impression that this was simply a routine matter in which you gave routine advice. Is that not right? A. I think routine has been mentioned and explained elsewhere before. I says where legal matters require advice, they are sent by TGL to the legal department. That is routine. Q. This is designed ---A. I think this routine here certainly refers back to what had been explained before about what happens when there is a legal matter arising at TGL. Q. This is designed to give the court to the impression that this was simply a routine matter, like many others, is it not? A. It was not so designed. Q. What do you mean by, "in line with this routine" then? A. It simply means that when there is a legal issue at TGL that
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NGUMA-PRICE 2 A. Right. 3 Q. You said that separately to the Managing Director and the 4 Managing Editor, did you?
1 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Look what you say in paragraph 23(a), the last sentence of 7 paragraph -- let us look, start in the middle of (a). Have 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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you got (a)? "This was in line with the established practice, that any matter which may have serious implications is forwarded to the legal department at IPP." You see that? A. Yes. Q. "In line with this routine, I considered the letter and gave legal advice to TGL." That is highly misleading on two counts: the first is that you did not give legal advice to TGL. What you did was you told them that you could not give legal advice because you were conflicted. A. Yes. Q. Therefore, what you say there is highly misleading, is it not? A. I gave advice. Q. Did you give legal advice? A. Most probably not. Q. It is not a question ---A. It was advice, my Lord. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Sorry, most probably? A. I gave them advice which could, in a way, as it came from me,
NGUMA-PRICE is considered serious, the legal officer at TGL forwards it to the legal department. That was the routine. Q. It is only right that I should put to you absolutely directly the suggestion that I make and that is that this paragraph was designed to deliberately to mislead us and to mislead the court? A. There was no reason to do so and it was not so designed. Q. You could have said, perfectly simply, "I was acting for Benjamin Mengi against the Middletons. I could not possibly advise and I told them that I could not." There was no legal privilege about the matter at all, was there, Mr. Nguma? You are trying to give the impression that you gave some form of legal advice which you are not prepared to tell the court about. Is that not right? A. I have said it was not designed to do so. Q. It is an accident, is it? A. You could say so. Q. Who drafted this witness statement? A. Two legal officers at IPP. Q. Names? A. Sabash and Sylvia. Q. Right. On your instructions? A. Yes. Q. You told them what to write?
[4] (Pages 341 to 344)

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NGUMA-PRICE A. Yes. Q. The letters that we are thinking about, considering here, the letters from Ms. Hermitage and Mr. Middleton to the Managing Editor and to Mr. Mengi outlined at least the possibility that there may be a lawsuit over this, did there not? A. Outlined what? Q. They suggested that there might be a lawsuit about it all, did they not? A. Yes. Q. You could not advise or act for the Guardian? A. No. Q. In any capacity? A. No. Q. What about Ms. Luhanga? Does she have experience of legal matters? A. No. Q. Does she have any experience of working in the media? A. She is an economist and a sales person. Q. She sells? A. She is a sales person. She is an economist and a sales marketing person. Q. So there was no question of Ms. Luhanga -- so that we are clear about this, the two directors of the Guardian Ltd are
NGUMA-PRICE 2 Q. You had a situation here in which there was a threatened 3 lawsuit against the Guardian, in which neither of the
1 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
directors were able to handle the matter and the Managing Director and the Managing Editor had sought legal advice. That was a serious situation, was it not? A. Yes. Q. One which you would have to draw to Mr. Reginald's Mengi's attention? A. I would have drawn his attention to the matter when a legal demand was issued in respect of the matter. Q. What, in the meantime, were the Managing Director and the Managing Editor to do about it? They had received letters of complaint which, in a properly run business, needed a response of some kind. What were they to do about it? A. I advised them to use their complaints resolving mechanism, investigate the matter and, if they found there was any wrong-doing, to consult an external lawyer. Q. What did they do? A. I do not know what they did. Q. You did not bother to find out? A. No. Q. As far as you were concerned, you marked the letters "case file" and they went into the Benjamin Mengi file. You told my Lord that yesterday.
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1 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did Mr. Reginald Mengi need legal advice about this? 4 A. Not at that stage. 5 Q. Did you give him any legal advice? 6 A. I told him he need not reply, he need not respond. 7 Q. Was that legal advice? You just told my Lord that he did not 8
NGUMA-PRICE you and Ms. Luhanga? A. Yes. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Can we just identify the individuals who are referred to here and make sure there is not any confusion? You have mentioned the Managing Director of TGL. Who was that? A. Mr. Mshana? MR. PRICE: M-S-H-A-N-A. of the Guardian. Was that Mr. Mauggo?
NGUMA-PRICE
need legal advice at this stage?
9 A. Legal advice to respond to this letter. 10 Q. Yes, he did not need it. 11 A. However, I told him, "You need not respond". 12 Q. Yes, well, that was not legal advice, was it, because so far 13
10 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Right. You also mentioned the Managing Editor 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, Mr. Price. 14 MR. PRICE: So Ms. Luhanga could not help the Guardian with this 15
as he was concerned, it was not a legal matter, on your case?
14 A. It was legal advice coming from me to him. 15 Q. What did Mr. Reginald Mengi need legal advice on, Mr. Nguma? 16
possible problem involving potential litigation?
16 A. No, she could not. 17 Q. So if the Managing Editor and the Managing Director needed 18 19
What was the legal problem that Mr. Reginald Mengi had?
17 A. To respond to the allegations raised in the letters. 18 Q. However, he was perfectly capable of doing that himself 19 20 21
advice, as they clearly did, they had to look for it elsewhere?
because, on what you say (and he says), all he need say is, "It is nothing to do with me and I did not give the undertaking." There is nothing legal about that, is there?
20 A. With regard to that letter? 21 Q. Yes? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So this is a serious situation and something that you would 24
22 A. He felt he needed legal advice. 23 Q. He felt he needed legal advice? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You could not give him legal advice because you were
have had to have told Mr. Mengi about. Is that not right?
25 A. With regard to which letter?
[5] (Pages 345 to 348)

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1 2
NGUMA-PRICE conflicted?
1 2 3 5 6
NGUMA-PRICE (and your friend of 32 years) completely in the dark about something that he plainly needed to know. Is that it? handling the case for his young brother, I thought he knew that from his brother.
3 A. I gave him legal advice not to respond. 4 Q. I will repeat the question: you could not give him legal 5 advice because you were plainly conflicted. That is right, is 6
4 A. Although I did not tell him or I had not told him that I was
it not?
7 A. Before this letter, I did not know that Reginald Mengi was in 8 any way involved in the Silverdale issue. 9 Q. You told my Lord a moment ago that Mr. Reginald Mengi felt he 10 needed legal advice? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. In that situation, it was your plain duty to tell him, "I 13 cannot give you legal advice because I am acting for your
7 Q. You thought he knew it? 8 A. From his brother. 9 Q. Then all the more reason, when he needs legal advice and asks 10 11 13 14 15
you, to tell him simply, "I cannot advise you because, as you know, I am acting for your brother." the table talking about this letter. We did not. They just came to me and I decided what to do. We did not sit across the table to discuss this.
12 A. Let us understand it this way: it was not like we sat across
brother against the Middletons," was it not? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you do that? 17 A. I did not.
14 18 Q. Why not? 19 A. I just decided not to. 20 Q. Why? 21 A. As it was not at that stage important. 22 Q. It was extremely important because it was the Chairman's own 23 brother, was it not? 24 A. I do not think so. 25 Q. You deliberately ----
16 Q. Where did you discuss it? 17 A. Sorry? 18 Q. Where did you discuss it? 19 A. We did not discuss. I just told him and, if I can recall, it 20
most probably was over the telephone.
21 Q. However, you cannot remember? 22 A. I cannot remember how I communicated this to him, but we never 23 25
sat down to discuss this letter. letter of 25th March by Stewart Middleton to Mr. Mengi, it was
24 Q. Look at paragraph 23(b) again, if you would: "As to the
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NGUMA-PRICE 2 A. Because of their relationship, you mean I was obliged to tell 3 him because ---1 4 Q. What are you referring to by "their relationship"? The fact 5 that they were brothers? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Also, very close? 8 A. Yes, I was asking you if that is what you meant. 9 Q. You have accepted that it was your plain duty to tell 10 Mr. Mengi that you could not give him legal advice because you 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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NGUMA-PRICE forwarded to me by Mr. Mengi. I considered the letter and gave legal advice to Reginald Mengi, privilege in which is not waived." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Is that true? A. Yes. Q. The legal advice that you gave was, "Do not reply to the letter"? A. Yes. Q. You have accepted that you were plainly conflicted from giving that advice? A. Could I see the letter? Q. Yes, it is in file 1.2, at tab D, at page 203. You will see that it encloses the letter of 24th February from his wife, which is on page 199. Do you want to look at those again now? A. In the letter of 25th March, Mr. Middleton is referring to newspapers published by IPP Holdings Ltd. Q. Yes, which he encloses so you can see them for yourself? A. He is asking him how he feels as the executive Chairman of IPP Holdings. Q. Yes. What is the relevance of that, Mr. Nguma? A. I was not aware of any company called IPP Holdings Ltd or any interest he had in such a company. Q. Is that the reason why you advised Mr. Mengi not to reply to
were conflicted. I am putting to you that that was particularly so, given that it involved his own brother. Why should you keep him in the dark about that? A. If you say it was particularly so because he was the owner of the Guardian, I do not understand that, but if you tell me because Mr. Benjamin Mengi was his brother, then I do not think I was obliged to do so. Q. Let me put the question again and see if we can get a sensible answer: you have accepted that it was your plain duty to tell Mr. Mengi that you could not give him legal advice because you were conflicted, in a matter which involved his own brother. Why did you not carry out your duty as a lawyer, Mr. Nguma? There must be an explanation; please can we have it? A. There was not any real reason why not. Q. You just decided, for no real reason, to keep your Chairman
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NGUMA-PRICE the letter? A. Yes. Q. That does not make much sense, does it, Mr. Nguma? The newspapers articles that were being complained about were enclosed, so you knew quite well which newspaper articles were being complained about? A. However, here he was being referred to as the Executive Chairman of IPP Holdings Ltd. Was that in any way relevant? Q. Is that the reason why you did not think that this letter deserved a reply? A. As he would have replied as who? He is not the Chairman of IPP Holdings Ltd. Q. What is he the Chairman of? A. He is Executive Chairman of IPP Ltd, not IPP Holdings Ltd. Q. So this is your evidence to my Lord: that if a letter of complaint comes in which refers to IPP Holdings Ltd instead of IPP Ltd, that that is not a letter that should be replied to? A. As he has no interest in a company called IPP Holdings Ltd. Q. There is not such a company, is there? A. Sorry? Q. Is there such a company? A. No. Q. So if somebody who makes a legal complaint to this highly
1 2 3 A. Yes.
NGUMA-PRICE the company name in the second line is wrong.
4 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Also, the mistake is repeated on the next page. 5 A. Yes, my Lord. 6 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Suppose the word "Holdings" had been left out. 7 9 10
Would that have made any difference? the letter to the Managing Editor because it was not a matter concerning him.
8 A. I still would have advised him not to respond, but to forward
11 Q. Would you expect the Managing Editor to reply? 12 A. Sorry? 13 Q. Would you expect the Managing Editor to reply? 14 A. To deal with the matter within the complaints mechanism they 15
have at TGL and deal with it accordingly.
16 Q. First of all, in order to do that, you have to reply? 17 A. Who? 18 Q. Well, the Managing Editor has ---19 A. The Managing Editor would then reply to that letter. 20 Q. Exactly, and he did not. 21 A. No, I do not know. 22 Q. Well, let me tell you, he did not. You did not know that? 23 24
You know perfectly well that there was no reply to any of these letters, do you not, Mr. Nguma?
25 A. That is what the defendant is saying.
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NGUMA-PRICE 2 Q. Well, it is true. 3 A. I have no reason to doubt that. If you are telling me that 4 that is the position, I have no reason to doubt that.
1 5 Q. Who is the Chairman of the Guardian? 6 A. I am. 7 Q. You are the Chairman of this company? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You are the only director of it, apart from a sales expert? 10 A. Apart from Ms. Luhanga. 11 Q. Who is a sales expert? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. These letters have been sent, as you know, to the
NGUMA-PRICE reputable and large organisation in Dar es Salaam and they get the name of the company wrong by putting the word "Holdings" in, they do not get a reply. Is that it? A. I do not know whether that is wrong, but if he is being asked to give his view as Chairman of IPP Holdings Ltd, what view would he give? Q. Well, he could give a view about the complaint about articles which were enclosed, so that there was no doubt about what the complaint was. A. About IPP Holdings Ltd? Q. He could reply and say, "Dear Mr. Middleton, you have made a mistake. I am not the Chairman of IPP Holdings Ltd, I am of IPP Ltd. I have looked at the articles. This is nothing to do with me. You will have to write to the Managing Editor." Well, you can hardly say that because he was told in the letter that the Managing Editor had not replied. In a well run business, he would tell the Managing Editor to jolly well reply. Is that not right? A. I do not think he was obliged to reply to that letter. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Suppose the letter, page 203, had been the same, Mr. Nguma, but with the word "Holdings" left out, would that have made a difference? A. Which page, my Lord? MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Page 203 in file 1.2. You have told us that
Managing Editor and no reply has been given, ever. 15 A. Because the Board -- we are directors of the Board, we are not 16 executive directors and we do not involve ourselves with the
14
day-to-day matters of the company. 18 Q. Oh, right. 19 A. So we would not know, as directors, whether certain letters of 20 complaint have been answered.
17 21 Q. You knew that the letter to the Managing Editor had not been 22 answered for at least a month, did you not? Just look at the
letter on page 203. Look at it. Look at the second to last paragraph on page 203. Do you have that? 25 A. Yes.
23 24
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NGUMA-PRICE Q. This is the letter on which Mr. Mengi sought your legal advice? A. Yes. Q. At the second to last paragraph, it says, "On 24th February, my wife wrote to the Managing Editor of the Guardian and a copy of this letter is enclosed for your attention. My wife has not yet received the courtesy of a reply." A. Yes. Q. You are the Chairman of the company? A. Yes. Q. Yet you did noting about it? A. I have said elsewhere in my statement that the directors do not in any way involve themselves with day-to-day running of the company and, therefore, it goes without saying that we would not enquire as to whether certain letters have been replied or not. Q. You knew that the letter had not been replied to and it is a disgraceful situation for the company of which you were Chairman, is it not? A. Again, I would say I would not interfere with day-to-day running operations of the company. Q. If you look at the next letter on which you gave advice, which is page 205. A. I have it.
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NGUMA-PRICE (and as the Chairman of the Guardian), is that you should avoid replying at all to any letter which indicates a possible legal complaint. Is that it? A. As an advocate. Q. Also as the Chairman of the Guardian. Your position is that you should avoid replying to any letter which outlines a possible legal complaint at all? A. As an advocate, yes; as the Chairman of the Guardian, I still repeat what I said, that the Chairman does not involve himself in the day-to-day running. Q. If there had been a lawsuit about this, the Tanzanian judge might have been a little startled that when a perfectly reasonable legal complaint was outlined, the newspaper did not bother to reply. Is that not right? A. I would also add here that as long as this letter is strongly talking about the actions of the Managing Editors and the editors of the publications, this letter should have rightly been addressed to the Managing Editor and not to Mr. Reginald Mengi. Q. Let us bring commonsense into this. The whole reason why Mr. Middleton is writing to Mr. Mengi is because he and his wife have written more than once to the managing editor who has not bothered to reply for eight weeks. You are suggesting that the proper course is for them to write another letter to
[Page 358]
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[Page 360]
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NGUMA-PRICE Q. This is a letter to Mr. Mengi on which he sought your legal advice, "I refer you to my letter .... (reads to the words) ... are self-explanatory." Then if you look at the letter that was enclosed, on page 207, "I refer to the letter written to you by my wife, Sarah Hermitage, dated 24th February .... (reads to the words) ... to this letter." Is that not a disgraceful state of affairs? A. Maybe he had reason not to reply. Q. Did you ask? A. No. Q. Why not? A. Because I did not interfere with the day-to-day running of the company. Q. Therefore, my Lord is to understand that at the Guardian Newspaper Ltd, the proprietor, Mr. Reginald Mengi, will not get involved in any circumstances and that the directors will not either. Is that it? A. The letter dated 19th April, specifically threatens to sue the managing editors and editors and, if that happened, they would also join Mr. Mengi. Now, this was a legal threat. Replying to that letter would certainly give ammunition to whoever is complaining and the appropriate thing to do was to await any legal demand and then deal with the matter appropriately. Q. So your approach, as a very experienced lawyer and advocate
NGUMA-PRICE the managing editor and it is quite wrong they should write to Mr. Mengi and say that his papers were acting in an unprofessional manner. editors of the publications, which Mr. Mengi was not. you saying that when a letter is sent to the managing editor your advice as a lawyer would be best not to respond at all because if there is any suggestion in the letter that a lawsuit might be coming, that to reply at all might give ammunition to the plaintiff in the lawsuit; is that right?
5 A. To write to the proprietor of the newspaper and the managing 7 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I am sorry, I am not sure I follow this. Were
13 A. Addressed to the managing editor? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. And it is brought to my attention? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. What I would normally do, my Lord, is to investigate and see 18 19 20 22 23
whether there is any merit in the complaint and then, obviously, if there is merit they should reply accordingly and put in motion the mechanism which could solve the complaint. reply. That is at page 201, if you want to look at it. She had asked for a reasonable right of reply.
21 MR. PRICE: Miss Hermitage had asked for a reasonable right of
24 A. In the newspaper. 25 Q. Yes, and The Guardian's media policy requires that people
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NGUMA-PRICE should be given a reasonable right of reply where it is justified. Why should they not be given a reasonable right of reply? A. Did she give the newspapers a reply which they refused to publish? Q. No, what she did was she said, "I want a reasonable right of reply," and nobody replied to her letter. A. I would understand that if she sent a reply to the newspaper and said, "I want this reply to be published," they would do so but I do not know whether she did that because it says "a reasonable reply". What was the newspaper supposed to do, publish what? Q. What they were supposed to do was to write back and say, "Of course we will give you a reasonable right of reply, please let us have a draft of it and we will consider it." A. She had a right of reply. She should have sent it as of her right, not to ask them writing to and from for The Guardian to say there is no ---Q. I am sorry, there is no to and fro here. There are "to" but no "fro" because nobody ever replied. A. I would have expected her to send a reply which should have been published by the newspapers and then she should complain if the reply was not published. Q. I think it is unprofitable for me to continue with this topic.
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NGUMA-PRICE Yes. That is exactly the job she was given and accepted? Yes. Her job was to oversee the editorial content of all IPP print publications? A. Yes. Q. And you say that she enjoyed complete editorial freedom? A. Yes. Q. She resigned, did she not? A. Yes. Q. She said that, unfortunately, and I will show you the resignation letter if you want to look at it, she said that unfortunately the different viewpoint that she and Mr. Reginald Mengi had on handling editorial content "put us on a collision path". That was right, was it not? A. She said so. Q. And it was true? A. No. Q. Miss Datoo reported to Mr. Mengi? A. Sorry? Q. Miss Datoo reported to Mr. Mengi? A. Yes. Q. He was quite entitled to have a viewpoint on handling editorial content, was he not? A. Q. A. Q.
[Page 362]
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[Page 364]
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NGUMA-PRICE I think we have covered it well enough. I think it right that you should clearly understand what I shall submit to his Lordship in conclusion, that is, your evidence is not true and that you told Mr. Mengi, if he needed to be told, that you were acting for his brother and that you were both quite content that there should be no reply to these letters because they were quite content that your newspapers should be publishing material supportive of Benjamin Mengi. Do you understand? A. I understand what you intend to say. Q. What do you have to say about it? A. I leave it to his Lordship. Q. Thank you. I want to ask you a little bit about Sakina Datoo. She was at the time that Mr. Mengi appointed her Group Editorial Director a well known and very distinguished Tanzanian journalist, was she not? A. Yes. Q. She was the chairperson of the Editors Forum, which is an important body. A. Yes. Q. And your letter of appointment appointed her as Group Editorial Director. A. Yes. Q. For two years?
NGUMA-PRICE You mean Mr. Mengi? Yes. He could not have done that. He could not? No. How is he supposed to supervise Miss Datoo's job, then? The way I understand it, she was reporting to him not on matters of editorial content. Q. But her job was to oversee the editorial content? A. Yes. Q. So that was what she would report to Mr. Mengi on? A. I do not know that is what she was reporting to him. Q. What else is she going to report on? A. She was not supposed to report on editorial content. Q. Mr. Mengi was quite entitled to have a viewpoint on how the editorial content should be handled in his newspapers. A. But he did not have that right because there was a media, an electronic media policy which would not have allowed him to do so. Q. Why not? Why can he not take a view as to the way in which the editorial content should be handled and enforce it? Every other newspaper proprietor does. A. I am sure he has explained that. Q. You explain it. Why should he not? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.
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NGUMA-PRICE A. Because there was a media policy which did not give him power to do so. Q. Of course he had power. The editorial independence is independence from outside interference, is it not, by politicians or business interests, matters of that kind? A. No. Q. You try and explain to his Lordship, it will be one more opportunity, why Mr. Mengi should not have a view on the way in which the editorial content in his newspapers should be handled? A. As I said, there was an editorial policy and if the owner of the company decided that he would never interfere with the editorial independence of the editors of the newspapers, he had a right to do so. If you say he had no right to interfere, it was his right and he waived it. He did not want to interfere. Q. Go now, if you would, to file 3 (on the top of the box to your right), tab D, page 183. A. Did you say D? Q. I said file 3, tab D, page 183. A. Yes. Q. Just read that through to yourself so that you are familiar with its contents. I am sure you have seen it before, indeed you have seen it before.
1 2
NGUMA-PRICE certainly there was no official policy.
3 Q. A moment of madness on the part of the managing director? 4 A. If you say so. I do not know. 5 Q. Look at the next page. This is a letter the next day, it is 6
on The Guardian Limited headed writing paper.
7 A. Yes. 8 Q. But it is an internal memo? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Is there an explanation, there may be a perfectly good one, 11 12
why an internal memo should be written on The Guardian Limited headed writing paper?
13 A. I did not see that there was any reason why not to. 14 Q. I am just asking. 15 A. Certainly that happened in The Guardian. I decided to write 16 18 19 20
Mr. Mshana a letter. memorandum but it is headed, Internal Memorandum, as are many others, not all but many others. I just wondered whether there was a reason.
17 Q. If we look, for example, at page 187, that is an internal
21 A. There was no particular reason. 22 Q. No. 23 A. No. 24 Q. You have written a reprimand to Mr. Mshana? 25 A. Yes.
[Page 366]
1 2 A. (Pause) Yes. 3 Q. It was the company's official stand that there should be no 4 5
[Page 368]
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NGUMA-PRICE
controversial or sensitive stories on President Kikwete, was it not?
6 A. No. 7 Q. Why did Mr. Mshana, the managing director, say that, then? 8 A. I really do not know why he said that. That is why I 9
reprimanded him. There was no policy.
10 Q. No, the reprimand was because he had interfered. 11 A. Yes. There was no such policy. 12 Q. Why should Mr. Mshana, the managing director, say so? Was he 13 15
just making it up? is what he believed.
14 A. The managing director, I do not know where he got this. That 16 Q. Is Mr. Mshana an honest man? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Is he a sensible man? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Well, you try and explain to his Lordship why he should say it 21 22 23 25
was the company's official stand there should be no controversial or sensitive stories on President Kikwete, if that was simply not true? managing director had to say something like that, but
24 A. Certainly, my Lord, I certainly cannot explain why the
NGUMA-PRICE Q. You instructed your secretary to put it on Sakina Datoo's file? A. Yes. Q. Did it go on to Mr. Mshana's file? A. It went to Mr. Mshana. Q. But was a copy kept and put on his file? A. My office file? Q. Yes. A. Yes, the office copy is in the file in my office. Q. In Sakina Datoo's file? A. And then I said this photocopy should be kept in Sakina Datoo's file. Q. I just want to understand exactly what happened here. The letter goes off to Mr. Mshana. Does it go by a sort of internal postal service or delivery, or what? A. Yes, delivery. Q. Then you write to Wanvita, "Please keep a photocopy in Sakina Datoo's file." A. That is my secretary. Q. That is right. So she puts it on Sakina Datoo's file. A. Yes. Q. Is any other copy kept and put on any other file? A. Yes, The Guardian file in my office. Q. The Guardian file?
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NGUMA-PRICE A. Yes. Q. Okay. So, you have a file in which all documents coming to you and going from you relating to The Guardian go into that file? A. Yes. Q. What did you write that note on? A. Sorry? Q. You have written, "Wanvita, please keep a photocopy of this letter in Miss Sakina Datoo's file." What did you write it on? A. What did I write it on? Q. Yes, you did not write it on the original letter that went to Mr. Mshana? A. I cannot remember now but it must have been on the file copy of this letter. Q. Right. So you took a photocopy of it yourself, did you? A. I did. Q. You did? A. You asked -- what was the question again? Q. I am asking what you wrote this note to Wanvita on, and you say it must have been on the file copy. A. Yes. Q. How did you come by a file copy of it? A. The letter was written by me.
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 10 11 12
NGUMA-PRICE the case of the letters that Miss Hermitage and Mr. Middleton wrote, you would have put a note saying, "file" and in this case you would have put a note saying, "file Sakina Datoo", and it would have gone into Sakina Datoo's file? significance of this because I did not intend it to be on the original. have seen a letter yesterday which bears a date which was at least two years wrong, even if the letter was ever sent, so we are a little suspicious of ----
6 A. I guess that could have been done but I do not see the
9 Q. The significance is we do not know what goes on here but we
13 A. Which letter? 14 Q. You were in court yesterday? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. The letter of resignation that Mr. Mengi sent to NICOL. 17 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Shall we stick to this one, Mr. Price. If you 18 20 21 23 25
are going to put a case on this I think you had better put it. submitting in closing that your Lordship needs to be somewhat suspicious of some of these letters. the witness. to say. I think you either have to put it or not.
19 MR. PRICE: I do not think I can take it any further. I will be
22 MR. RAMPTON: I am sorry, that will not do. It has to be put to 24 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Quite right. I think I know what he is going
[Page 370]
NGUMA-PRICE 2 Q. Yes, and you have signed it. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And did you take a photocopy, then, of it as the file copy?
1 5 A. Those were the instructions to my secretary. 6 Q. Precisely. What I am asking you is what did you write those 7 instructions on? You did not write it on the original, did 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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2 MR. PRICE: Yes. 3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: If you would like to think about it while I 4
take a break.
5 MR. PRICE: All right, my Lord. Thank you. 6 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I imagine you have some more questions for 7
Mr. Nguma.
you? A. Looking at this, what I think happened was most probably, and this really would happen, my secretary must have photocopied the original, but I really cannot tell you now what happened, but this is certainly written on an original copy, but I do not know what happened then; maybe there were two. Q. Maybe there were two? A. Original copies. Q. When was this letter written, Mr. Nguma? A. 17th October. Q. I want you to try and explain, if you will, how it comes about that you write on something, you think it may be a second original, "Please keep a photocopy of this letter." A. It could happen if there were ---Q. But two originals ---A. Sometimes, sometimes the secretaries could have two original copies of the same letter. Q. Normally, what you would do is just simply put, as you did in
8 MR. PRICE: Yes, not many but probably some. 9 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: All right. We will break off until 5 to 12. 10
(Short adjournment)
11 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Price. 12 MR. PRICE: Mr. Nguma, could I hand up the original that is in 13 14 15
the disclosure of the document that we are looking at. Take it out from that plastic folder. What you have there is a photocopy of the letter that you sent to Mr. Mshana.
16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You will see that you have signed that photocopy. What you 18 19
see there is your signature in ink, not a photocopy of your signature. Do you see that?
20 A. I cannot tell. 21 Q. Look at the back of it and you will see that the ink has come 22
through a bit.
23 A. I cannot tell anything. 24 Q. Well, we will hand it up to my Lord in a moment but just let 25
me ask you this. Why should you sign a photocopy of a letter
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NGUMA-PRICE that you were sending off to Mr. Mshana? Is that your
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NGUMA-PRICE hope that I will not at any stage, accusing you of faking tis letter, Mr. Nguma, because I am not in the business of making accusations unless I can fully back them up. You understand that? A. Okay. Q. But if you could make arrangements and if Mr. Mengi's lawyers could arrange for us to be provided with those two further copies of this letter that would be helpful. or not until I have taken instructions, but I would like to know what the reason is. I am not clear at the moment where this is supposed to lead. I have had an express disavowal of any intention to accuse Mr. Nguma of forgery so I wonder what the purpose for all this is. Are we just speculatively following a possible trial, is that what it is? I am not resisting it but I would quite like to know what the reason is. There is a lot of work involved. I think that the request is reasonably made. The witness has not indicated any reason why it should not be complied with. But of course if there were an endless session of requests of this kind it would be unreasonable, but we are talking about two pages of what should be a pretty modest search in this case.
practice to sign photocopies? 4 A. Unless there was no other copy and my secretary gave me an 5 unsigned copy.
6 Q. There must have been a top copy which you signed and sent off 7 to Mr. Mshana. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. But here what you have is a photocopy which it appears you 10 have signed. 11 A. I do not understand. 12 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Could I have a look at it? 13 MR. PRICE: Yes, my Lord. (Same handed to Judge) 14 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, thank you. 15 MR. PRICE: Is it your evidence, Mr. Nguma ----
10 MR. RAMPTON: I am not saying no, and it is not for me to say yes
16 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Just let Mr. Rampton see it before you carry 16 17 17 on, Mr. Price. (Same handed to counsel) 18 MR. PRICE: Is it your evidence that all documents that pass 19 through your office relating to The Guardian go into a 20
18 20 21 22 23 24 25
19 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I am very glad that you are not, Mr. Rampton.
Guardian file.
21 A. Yes. 22 Q. How big is that file? 23 A. I do not know. 24 Q. You do not know? 25 A. No.
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NGUMA-PRICE 2 Q. I suggest it must occupy some cabinets? 3 A. I am sure there must be a number of volumes. My secretary 4 will deal with that. I would not know how many files, how many
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[Page 376]
NGUMA-PRICE MR. RAMPTON: We will do our best, certainly. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Price. MR. PRICE: Where is the original? Perhaps we had better be careful and get that back with its little file and if I could give it to my instructing solicitor for the time being. (Same handed to solicitor) (To the witness) You will remember that Miss Sakina Datoo did also give as a reason for her resignation that Mr. Mengi did not like her constant refusal to publish front page editorials attacking certain personalities or refusing intervention of the managing director in editorial matters. Have you any reason to suppose that Miss Datoo was not telling the truth when she said that? A. No. Q. You have no reason to think that she was not telling the truth -- there are a lot of negatives in that. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: You have no reason to think she was lying. A. I have no reason to believe that Mr. Mengi was doing what she alleges in her letter. MR. PRICE: Would you know whether he was or he was not? A. I would know. Q. You would know? A. I would know. Q. How?
volumes. Q. Which file did that copy come from? Did it come from The Guardian file or the Sakina Datoo file? A. I do not know. Q. You do not know? A. No. Q. I think on your evidence there would be three copies of this letter, one that went to Mr. Mshana, what would he have done with it, file it? A. I do not know. Q. One on your Guardian file and one on Sakina Datoo's file. I suggest that it probably came from Sakina Datoo's file because this letter appears in the Sakina Datoo section of the bundle that Mr. Mengi's lawyers asked to be put together and which contains documents which appear to come out of the Sakina Datoo file. So, could I ask you to arrange that we can see a copy of the letter that is on The Guardian file and a copy, too, of the letter that is on any file that Mr. Mshana keeps at The Guardian offices. A. Okay. Q. Let me make it quite clear that I am not at this stage, and I
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NGUMA-PRICE A. Because I know he does not. 3 Q. How do you know that? 4 A. All the years I have known he does not do that. 5 Q. But you are a completely hands off chairman of The Guardian 6 Limited, how would you know what was going on between 7 Mr. Reginald Mengi and the managing director of The Guardian? 8 A. I am the chief corporate counsel of IPP Limited. I would know 9 that. 10 Q. Mr. Mengi takes considerable interest in what his newspapers 11 publish, does he not? 12 A. He does not. 13 Q. You knew Miss Sakina Datoo? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. She is a lady of complete integrity, is she not? 16 A. I do not know. I cannot vouch for anybody's complete 17 integrity. I never dealt with her in any matter. There is 18 nothing between me and her to know whether she had full 19 integrity or not. 20 Q. Can you think of a reason why she should lie in that 21 resignation letter? 22 A. I guess she was disgruntled because her position was 23 abolished. 24 MR. PRICE: Thank you, Mr. Nguma. 25
1 2
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
NGUMA - RAMPTON letter from Mr. Middleton, in fact as we know it is written by Miss Hermitage, 19th April, which refers to a supposed undertaking. Then in the fourth paragraph it says this, "At least four defamatory articles were published in newspapers and by the IPP Media Group ....(reads to the words).... the IPP Media Group and yourself [meaning Mr. Mengi, it is addressed to Mr. Mengi] and you Mr. Mengi will be joined in the plaint." Your evidence is that in relation to that letter, too, you advised Mr. Mengi not to respond.
11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Are you familiar with the Newspapers Act of Tanzania, the 13 Newspapers Act of 1976? Do you know that Act? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. I am sure you do being a lawyer working for a newspaper group. 16 You will find it in file 3. You can put file 2 away now as
far as I am concerned, thank you, Mr. Nguma. 18 A. What file? 19 Q. File 3, please, and turn to tab E (E for Elephant), and page 20 221. We had better identify the Act first of all, on page
17
201, which is behind this divider. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. This is the Newspapers Act of Tanzania. I think it is dated 24 1976, is it not?
21 25 A. Yes.
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[Page 380]
NGUMA - RAMPTON 2 Q. Somebody has written that in ink on the top right-hand corner. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. I shall read them because they need to go on the record. I
1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
NGUMA RE-EXAMINED BY MR. RAMPTON Q. I have only one thing I need to ask you to deal with, Mr. Nguma, and it is because you are a lawyer. In answer to his Lordship, a question from his Lordship, you said, even if that letter -- and we do not need to look at it now -actually, will you open the letter of 19th April. It is at page 205 of file 1.2, towards the back. A. What page, please? Q. Page 205, please. A. Yes. Q. You will see that -- sorry, that is the wrong one. It is 203 I want first of all. I beg your pardon, my mistake. You see in the first paragraph of page 203, this letter of 25th March, there is a reference to a company, supposed company, called IPP Holdings Limited. A. Yes. Q. You said that company does not exist or at least you did not know of any such company and you knew that Mr. Mengi did not have an interest in any such company. His Lordship then asked whether the word "holdings" had been removed and it just said, IPP Limited, whether you still advised Mr. Mengi to make no response and your answer was, yes. A. Yes. Q. Can you turn over the page to 205, please. This is the second
shall read them and then I shall ask you a couple of questions, Mr. Nguma. Would you mind reading them to yourself at the same time? Paragraph 48 says in the marginal note, "Offences by corporations, societies, etc." Offences in this section can include defamation, can it not, under Tanzanian law? Mr. Nguma, sorry, I have a preliminary question, under this Act defamation can be a criminal offence?
13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Which is why it appears in the Newspapers Act. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. "Offences by corporations, societies, etc. 48. Where any 17 offence under this Act or any subsidiary legislation made 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
hereunder is committed by a company or other body corporate...." and I will skip that bit "then, as well as the company or other body corporate" and I will skip the next few words "every person who, at the time of the commission of the offence, was concerned, as a director or an officer, with the management of the affairs or activities of such company or other body corporate....commits the offence," etc. "and be liable to be proceeded against...."
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NGUMA - RAMPTON Was Mr. Mengi at any of these times with which we are concerned in this case a director or an officer of The Guardian Limited? A. No. Q. Which is the publisher of The Guardian newspaper? A. It is The Guardian newspaper. Q. And of Nipashe? A. Yes. Q. Thank you. I will go, if I may, to paragraph 49, which is about agents and "liability of employer or principal. 49. Where an offence under this Act or any subsidiary legislation made hereunder is comitted by a person as an agent or employee, then, as well as the agent or employee, the principal or employer commits the offence and be proceeded against and punished accordingly," etc. "unless he had no knowledge...." Was there any sense, and I am asking you as a Tanzanian lawyer, as well as for your factual knowledge of the situation, was there any sense in which Mr. Mengi was ever a principal or employer of any of the people who worked for The Guardian? A. In no sense at all. Q. Thank you. If you go back to the letter we have just looked at, I know you have put it away but you will remember that the
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NGUMA QUESTIONS BY THE COURT you are a director of The Guardian.
3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you very much. One thing, Mr. Nguma, 5 A. Yes, my Lord. 6 Q. And you were at the time all this was going on. Do you get it 7
delivered to your desk every day?
8 A. What, my Lord? 9 Q. The Guardian newspaper. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Of which you are a director? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you get a copy delivered to you each day? 14 A. Yes, my Lord. 15 Q. And likewise Nipashe? 16 A. Yes, my Lord. 17 Q. I should hope so. It would be very odd if you had to go out 18 19 20
and buy it. Is that the norm for directors of the newspaper companies within the IPP Group, that a copy of each newspaper of which they are a director is sent to them each day?
21 A. I do not suppose so but I get copies every day. 22 Q. You do, anyway? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You cannot speak for others? 25 A. Yes.
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NGUMA - RAMPTON letter of 19th April 2006, at page 205 of file 1.2, threatens to sue Mr. Mengi for what appears in the newspapers. We have just read that.
NGUMA MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Right. Thank you very much, Mr. Nguma.
5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Would as a matter of Tanzanian law, would Mr. Mengi have been 7 8
liable for any of these articles if he had been sued in defamation by the defendant?
9 A. Not at all. 10 MR. PRICE: Thank you. Those are all the questions I have. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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NGUMA FURTHER RE-EXAMINED BY MR. RAMPTON MR. RAMPTON: Perhaps I could ask one question arising out of that. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Of course, Mr. Rampton, yes. MR. RAMPTON: What time of day do you get these newspapers delivered to you. A. 10 in the morning. Q. What do you do with them? A. If I have time because if I am engaged with other things I will not read it, and if I am engaged for the whole day I will not have time to read those newspapers for that day. Q. You do not store them up to be read later in the week sort of thing? A. My Lord, there would be too many. I certainly would not have time to do that. Q. And if you do get the chance to read them, do you read them thoroughly, from cover to cover as it were, or do you just glance at them? A. I look at the headlines. Q. Are you interested in sport, for example? A. Sorry? Q. Are you interested in sport, games? A. Yes. Q. Do you follow football?
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MAUGGO MR. WALLACE MAUGGO, SWORN EXAMINED BY MR. RAMPTON MR. RAMPTON: Mr. Mauggo, would you like to sit down, or do you prefer to stand? Is there a file beside you with "3" on the back of it? My eyesight is not good enough to tell. A. Yes. Q. Thank you very much. A. 3?
10 Q. Yes. Please turn to tab 3. 11 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: You mean file 2, Mr. Rampton. 12 MR. RAMPTON: A characteristic error, my Lord. 13 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: It is sitting on top of the cardboard box. 14 MR. RAMPTON: Apologies Mr. Mauggo. Tab 3 of file 2. 15 A. Yes, I am there. 16 Q. Is there a document there with your name on it, on the front? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. The name you have just given, Wallace Mikengo Mauggo? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. It was a draft and you have scratched out "draft" and written 21
your name?
22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Is that a witness statement you have made for this case? 24 A. Yes. There is a second statement. 25 Q. I know. I am coming to that in a minute. There is a
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2 A. The Barclay's Premier League. 3 Q. All right. Does that appear in The Guardian? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. RAMPTON: Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Nguma. 6 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Just a last thing on this, and we will not go 7 8
into the Barclay's Premier League, but on a typical day how many pages are there in The Guardian?
9 A. I think 24 pages. 10 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Nguma. 11 A. Thank you, my Lord. 12
(The witness withdrew) go into the witness box, please, Mr. Mauggo.
13 MR. RAMPTON: The next witness, my Lord, is Mr. Mauggo. Would you 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
MAUGGO - RAMPTON formality we have to go through, please understand. If you turn to page 122 -- you will see the numbers printed on the bottom right-hand corner of the page -- has it got a signature there? A. Yes, it has. Q. Is it yours? A. Yes. Q. On 20th July 2012, and it says: "I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true." Is that accurate? A. It is accurate. Q. Also, in there, there should be behind that statement another one, your second witness statement. If you go past the first statement, all the way through, is there a second witness statement there, something that says "Second witness statement of Wallace Mikengo Mauggo"? A. Yes, it is there. Q. Is that a statement you made more recently for this case? A. Right. Q. And this is the statement concerning the evidence of Mr. Eric Kamendera, is it not? A. Right. Q. Just turn to the last page. Excuse me. In the file, it is page 9, or it is page 9 of the statement. I do not think it has got a file number.
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MAUGGO - RAMPTON 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Is that your signature again? 4 A. Yes, it is.

1 5 Q. Is the statement of truth that you have made accurate? 6 A. Exactly. 7 Q. There are also some exhibits to the second statement. Are
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MAUGGO - RAMPTON the managing editor today are not addressed to you? A. They are not addressed to me. MR. RAMPTON: Thank you very much. Please remain there. Sorry, one other question. No, I cannot ask that question. Sorry.
they also in the file there? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. I am not going to ask you any questions, really, about the 11 facts of this case, Mr. Mauggo. I am going to leave that to
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your witness statement and to Mr. Price, so far as he is interested. I would like you, if you will, to tell his Lordship a little bit about your education and background.
You left university in Dar Es Salaam, I think, in 1973? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. With a BA in English Language and Literature. You then joined 18 the government; is that right?
19 A. Right. 20 Q. In the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. You became an Information Officer in Publication; is that 23 right? 24 A. It is right. 25 Q. And you remained there until 1991, when you went to the
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MAUGGO - RAMPTON Government School of Journalism? A. Yes. Q. Which lasted until February 1994? A. Right. Q. And then you joined the PST News Agency as its founding director? A. Right. Q. Is the PST News Agency part of the IPP group? A. I understand it was. It is. Q. Sorry? A. It is. Q. It was and is? A. To my knowledge, it was. Q. It was. Then in January 1995 you became managing editor of the Guardian? A. Right. Q. Is that right? One question which has arisen today: in January 2006, were you the managing editor of the Guardian? A. January 2006, I was not even at the Guardian. Q. You were not? A. I was not even at the Guardian. Q. No. Quite. When did you return to the Guardian? A. I returned to the Guardian January 1st 2007. Q. Yes. So, the letters we were looking at in court addressed to
MAUGGO CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. PRICE MR. PRICE: Since your return in January 2007, you have been at the Guardian as a content editor or as managing editor for the best part of six years? A. Right. Q. And you must have attended, and indeed you have attended -how many days a week do you work? A. How many? Q. Days a week? A. Initially, it was six; now it is five. Q. Right. So, in those six years, you must have attended hundreds, if not a thousand, editorial meetings? A. I haven't made any calculations, but it might be so. Q. Well, there are three editorial meetings a day, are there not? A. Exactly. Q. And you must have been involved in the preparation or approval of tens of thousands of stories? A. Depending on the calculations, yes. Q. Can I just ask you to look at paragraph 25A of your first witness statement? You there refer to an article in the Guardian? A. Just a moment. I am not yet there. 25A? Q. 25A. It is on page 112 of the bundle. You refer to an article in the Guardian in February 2007, and you describe
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MAUGGO - PRICE that article. For your Lordship's note, if it helps, that article is to be found at tab 3, file B, pages 37, A to W. Now, that was a ruling by the Speaker of the National Assembly on the complaint by Mr. Mengi that a member of the Assembly had said something untrue about Mr. Mengi in the course of a parliamentary session; is that right? A. Right. Q. You say that: "The editors perceive that there was a demand among readers to read the ruling for themselves and the item was considered topical and informative"; and so the ruling was reproduced in the Guardian? A. Yes. Q. In the copy we have, it covers 23 pages. A. Yes. Q. You say that the ruling was also reproduced by other media outlets? A. I have seen at least one other paper. Q. Published it in full? A. Yes, Tanzania (inaudible), one of the papers, in Swahili. Q. Do you remember the meeting at which this was discussed? A. Which? Q. The editorial meeting at which the publication of this ruling was discussed? A. Yes, I remember.
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MAUGGO - PRICE to carry the story was made at the editorial meeting. Do you remember that meeting? A. Yes. Q. You remember that story being discussed? A. Yes. Q. How do you remember that? A. I was there as content editor and it was discussed while I was there; so I took part in the meeting. Q. Three and a half years ago? A. Yes. Q. You must have edited thousands of stories since then? A. Of course, yes. Q. And probably hundreds of stories about Mr. Mengi? A. I am not quite sure about that. Q. Well, I suggest to you that you cannot possibly have any memory of the meeting at which this article was discussed? A. Yes, I remember. I was there. Q. You do? Well, I am sure you were there. A. I remember. Q. You do? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember every story? A. Not every story. This particular one I remember. Q. Right. Why?
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MAUGGO - PRICE 2 A. I don't know, but I remember it. 3 Q. Okay. Well, I am not going to go through all these, but let 4 us look at 25C, which is an article in the Guardian on
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MAUGGO - PRICE Five and a half years ago? Five? Five and a half years ago? Yes. I was there. Well, I am sure you were there. But you remember the discussion? A. Yes, I do. Q. The next one that you refer to is a Guardian article of 16th February 2009, and I think we can see that in file 5.2. Just let us look at that article, if we may, Mr. Mauggo. It is in file 5.2, which you have on your right, at page 5. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Sorry, Mr. Price? MR. PRICE: So sorry, my Lord. It is file 5.2, page 5. THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. PRICE: This is an address by Mr. Mengi at a fundraising ceremony organised by a development group for the construction of facilities such as a school for pupils with disabilities, at a primary school; and Mr. Mengi makes some observations about people with disabilities, and he gave quite a large amount of money to the development group. Then, at the bottom of the article, the Group's sponsors commended Mr. Mengi for his assistance: "Thank you very much". Now, you say that story was considered newsworthy because it raised awareness for the plight of people with disabilities, and the decision Q. A. Q. A. Q.
16th March, which is on page 8. A. 8 of 5.2? Q. Yes, three pages on from the one we were just looking at. "Mengi calls on children to love and respect each other". This is an address by Mr. Mengi at an Islamic centre on the outskirts of Moshi, and he said, "Remember love and respect," and he made some observations about how a respectful child should be, and he called on the children to study hard, and a teacher thanked Mr. Mengi for visiting the centre. You say that the story was considered newsworthy because of its human interest and its positive message; is that right? A. Yes. Q. And that the inclusion of the story was discussed and agreed at the editorial meetings? A. Yes. Q. More than one meeting? A. Sorry? Q. More than one meeting? A. At an editorial meeting. Q. Well, it may not matter, but your witness statement says "editorial meetings".
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MAUGGO - PRICE 2 A. This one was discussed at one editorial meeting. 3 Q. One? 4 A. One.
1 5 Q. Which one? 6 A. The one on this particular day. 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Well, there are three meetings a day, are there not? 10 A. The third meeting. 11 Q. The third meeting? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. That is the one at 4 o'clock in the afternoon? 14 A. Yes, 4 p.m.. 15 Q. You remember that, do you? 16 A. I remember I chaired the meeting. 17 Q. That is three and a half years ago. How do you remember that, 18 Mr. Mauggo? 19 A. I chaired the meeting, so I remember. 20 Q. Do you remember every story discussed at every meeting you 21 chaired? 22 A. Not necessarily, but this one I remember. 23 Q. Why? 24 A. Just I remember. 25 Q. You just do. Okay. I am not going to do more than a few
MAUGGO - PRICE 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And this is three and a half years ago? 4 A. Yes, I remember.
1 5 Q. You remember it? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. Why do you remember it? 8 A. I remember it because I was there and it was an important 9 story which we discussed, so I remember. 10 Q. An important story? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Why? 13 A. Because it concerned about raising awareness about the needy. 14 Q. Well, it was important, I suggest, because it was about 15 Mr. Mengi, who owns the newspaper? 16 A. No. 17 Q. No, no? 18 A. Okay, it was not about him. It was just somebody speaking 19 about him -- not even him. 20 Q. But you seriously want his Lordship to accept that you 21 remember the discussion at the meeting about this story? 22 A. I remember that it was tabled. 23 Q. If we go forward to G, this is an article about "Professor 24 Lipumba challenges the government for anti-graft crusade", and 25
you say it only mentioned Mr. Mengi in passing. This one is
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MAUGGO - PRICE more. I am going to do two more, I think, with his Lordship's permission. Let us look at D. If you move on to page 11 in this file -- do you have that: "Mengi's willing heart to give worth emulating"; and here we have Mr. Mengi and it is being said that his willingness to give to the needy is worth emulating, according to the National Social Security Fund Manager. "For many, Mengi's goodwill .... respects his spirit and spills into his character. We ought to borrow a leaf from Mengi's willingness," and so on and so forth. "Support was part and parcel of the annual NSFF week"; and then an orphanage centre coordinator makes some observations about a donation from NSFF. You say about that, at D of your witness statement: "The story was considered newsworthy because it raised awareness about the situation facing the needy and how they could be assisted. The decision to carry the story was made at editorial meetings." Is that right? A. We discussed this story. First, it was brought to us by the news editor at the 11 a.m. meeting. Then it came again at the 4 p.m. meeting. Q. Right. You remember the discussion? A. Yes. It was a normal discussion, just like the other meetings. Q. And the decision was that it raised awareness about the situation facing the needy?
MAUGGO - PRICE at -- actually, we have to go to file 3 for this one; and perhaps I could just ask you to turn that up. It is on page 73 at tab B. You say, rightly, that this article only mentioned Mr. Mengi in passing; that is what you say in your witness statement.
7 A. Okay. 8 Q. Do you remember this article? It is about a speech made by 9
Professor Lipumba.
10 A. Yes. 11 Q. The second column is where he commended Mr. Mengi for taking a 12
bold stand ----
13 A. Right. 14 Q. -- and said Mr. Mengi should name more corrupt officials. You 15 16 17
say: "The article was treated in an ordinary manner and the final decision to carry the story was made by the editors at the Guardian." Do you remember the discussion about that?
18 A. Not the details, but I remember it was tabled. 19 Q. Do you remember that Professor Lipumba had some other things 20
to say about Mr. Mengi?
21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What did he have to say about Mr. Mengi? 23 A. The same fact as appears in column 2, where he says, 24 25
"Professor Lipumba said Mengi should name more corrupt officials," and so on, and he is quoted. "People would think
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MAUGGO - PRICE that he was against these people," and so on and so on. So, he was also critical. Q. Well, he is not presented as being critical of Mr. Mengi in this article, is he? A. He says that he should have gone ahead and given more names. Q. Right. So, he is critical of him for not giving even more names of corrupt people? A. Yes. Q. Other newspapers, as you rightly say in your witness statement, carried this story? A. I think they do. They did. Q. They carried other things that Professor Lipumba said, did they not? A. They may have had. Q. They carried observations of Professor Lipumba -- I am not taking you through these, because we looked at these yesterday with Mr. Mengi. Were you present in court when we did that? A. Yes, I was. Q. You will recall that the other newspapers report highly critical remarks by Professor Lipumba? A. Maybe. Q. Was that discussed at the meeting? A. At our meeting? Q. Yes.
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MAUGGO - PRICE said by Professor Lipumba that was extremely critical of Mr. Mengi? Indeed, it described him as a racist. I am sure he is not a racist, but Professor Lipumba described him as a racist. A. It referred -- in column 2, there is something to that effect, though not as explicit as appeared in other papers, the ones you refer to. Q. You see, what I put to you, Mr. Mauggo, is perfectly clear: this story was reported in a highly favourable way to Mr. Mengi because he owns the newspaper? A. No. This is the information we got from the reporters. We have got faith in our reporters, and would not like to copy other papers, because those don't report to us. Q. Well, I ask you again, because you are the managing editor and you know the reporters: why do you not think they reported other things that Professor Lipumba had said, so that at least you could make a decision about it? A. I was not at the scene of the event. This is the information we got. We edited it, and this is what we got. Q. It is quite clear that Professor Lipumba said some critical things of Mr. Mengi, is it not? A. I don't know. Q. You have seen it reported in other newspapers? A. I don't know, but we don't go by other papers. This is the
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MAUGGO - PRICE A. What meeting -- because we don't discuss papers belonging to other companies. Q. Was this story discussed at an editorial meeting at the Guardian? A. This story? Q. Yes. A. Yes, I remember it was discussed. Q. Right. Were Professor Lipumba's critical remarks of Mr. Mengi discussed at the meeting? A. We discussed the content that we got from our reporters. Q. So, what did you get from your reporters? A. This is what we got. Q. Nothing else? A. This is what we got. Q. It is quite clear, is it not, that Professor Lipumba said some other things about Mr. Mengi? A. We don't report information that we did not get. So, this is what we got. Q. Why do you not think your reporters reported the material that was critical of Mr. Mengi? A. We have faith in our reporters. So, this is what they brought, and we edited the material and this is what we ran. Q. Perhaps you would answer the question. You are the managing editor. Why do you not think your reporters reported what was
MAUGGO - PRICE information we got from our reporters.
3 Q. Well, it was reported in every other newspaper, was it not? 4 A. It is their problem. This is what we got. 5 Q. I suggest to you, Mr. Mauggo, that this is the clearest 6 7 8 10 11 13 14 15 16
possible example of the Guardian, through its reporters and indeed its editors, deciding to edit it so as to favour the proprietor? at editorial meetings, and that is what we did with this story, like any other. your witness statement -- let us just look at that, on page 114, it is page 112, paragraph 23 -- "Stories giving coverage to Reginald Mengi are treated like all other stories", that is not true, is it, Mr. Mauggo?
9 A. That is your view, but we go by what we get and we decide that
12 Q. Well, I suggest to you that when you say in paragraph 23 of
17 A. Completely true. 18 Q. There are 190 articles on the IPP Media website at the moment, 19 20
since February 2009. Nobody else gets that sort of coverage, do they, except possibly the President?
21 A. I have not made the comparison. 22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: 190 in all, or 190 about Mr. Mengi? 23 MR. PRICE: About Mr. Mengi, since February 2009, which is when 24 25
they start, because I think they have been taken off. So, it is about one a week -- long articles, praising Mr. Mengi.
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MAUGGO - PRICE Nobody else gets treatment like that, do they, Mr. Mauggo? A. We neither sing praises about him nor report stories just because they are about him. We report about events and issues. Q. So he gets ---A. And if there is an issue, an event, concerning him and we, in our editorial wisdom, believe that it is worth reporting, we do so, not because it is about him but because we think it is important. Q. So, he is treated exactly the same as any other prominent businessman? A. Precisely. Q. Can you think of another businessman who gets the same coverage in the Guardian? A. It does not come to my memory off my head. Q. Does coverage in the Guardian or Nipashe -- or the Guardian, as you can speak for, because you are the managing editor -does it ever carry coverage that is critical of Mr. Mengi? A. I don't remember any in the recent past. But we don't create stories; we run stories that we get information about. So, if we would get a negative story about him, we would run it. Q. It just so happens that in your recollection of six years you have never come across such a story? A. Well, I don't remember any; but if we were to get it, we would
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MAUGGO - PRICE when he comes to the Guardian news room, he does not speak to me; he speaks to the news desk. Q. He must speak to you occasionally? A. Sorry? Q. He must speak to you occasionally? A. We just say "hello", that is all. Q. That is all? A. Yes, that is all. Whenever he comes and it is business, he approaches the news desk. Q. Can you remember an occasion when he has provided a story about Mr. Mengi and the Guardian have said, "We are not going to publish this"? A. And said what? Q. And said the Guardian has decided that they are not going to publish it? A. We get a lot of information and there are stories that we run, there are stories that we don't run, and I believe there are some which concern Mr. Mengi which we have not used. Q. You believe there are? A. Yes, I believe. Q. Can you remember one? A. Not off my head, but I know for sure there are stories that we have not used. Q. How recently?
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MAUGGO - PRICE 2 A. I cannot remember. 3 Q. If we look at paragraph 27A of your witness statement, this is 4 one of the stories that was defamatory of Mr. Middleton,
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MAUGGO - PRICE run it. Q. What about Benjamin Mengi: has there ever been a critical story about him? A. As I have shown, I joined the Guardian in 2007. It is not a very long time ago. In between, I have not come across or edited or published any positive or negative stories about him. I don't even know him. Q. Well, we have seen some positive stories. But you cannot remember a critical story? A. Critical story about Benjamin Mengi? Q. Yes. A. No. Q. Mr. Mengi's press secretary quite often provides press releases and material about Mr. Mengi for publication in the Guardian? A. Not for publication in the Guardian. It is a press release; it goes out to everybody, to all the media, as he wishes. Q. And he is quite often at the Guardian news room? A. According to my recollection, not often is reported, but sometimes he comes over. Q. Sometimes he is there. Can you remember examples of when Mr. Mengi's press secretary's requests for publication of press releases were turned down? A. I don't remember, because he does not actually come -- even
seriously defamatory of him? A. 27? Q. 27A. We had perhaps better look at it. It is in file 3, which you should have there, at page 21. This is a story about -- do you remember this story, Mr. Mauggo? A. No, I don't remember this story. Q. What? A. I don't remember this story. Q. At all? A. At all. Q. No memory of it? A. No. Q. You have no memory of how that came to be published? A. No. By then I was content editor, and I believe I did attend the meeting which passed this one. Q. You believe you did? A. I believe. Q. But you do not remember the story? A. No, I don't remember the story. Q. Look at paragraph 27A of your witness statement, page 120 of the bundle, bottom right-hand corner. "This article, which
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MAUGGO - PRICE appeared on page 5 under that headline, was filed by a PST correspondent called Kimambo." Do you remember that, or you have seen that on the story when you looked at it? Did you remember that it had been filed by Mr. Kimambo? A. Now I come to think of it, yes. Q. You did remember? A. I come to think of it, yes. Q. You say: "The story was handled in an ordinary manner and the final decision to carry the story and assign it to page 5, which is a relatively low priority page, was made at the 4 p.m. editorial meeting", which you attended as the content editor. Do you remember all that? A. Now I do. Q. What, in the last 30 seconds you have remembered? A. Lapse of memory. Q. But in 30 seconds you have suddenly remembered it again? A. I remember now. Q. Okay. You remember that meeting? A. Yes, I do. Q. Who was there? A. Those attending the meeting? Q. Yes. A. I was there, the deputy managing editor was there, the news editor was there, business editor and features editor.
1 2 Q. Why not?
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3 A. It depends what factor is defamatory. 4 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: You had better explain, Mr. Price. I know what 5 7 8 9
you mean by a defamatory statement. says -- and we can look at it if you like -- it describes a murderous attack with machetes on a local resident of Hai District. That is right, is it not?
6 MR. PRICE: I understand. (To the witness) What the story
10 A. Yes. 11 Q. It reports the victim as saying that as he was being 12 13 14 15
assaulted, "the British investor" -- that is Mr. Middleton -"was simply looking on and made no attempt to save my life". Now, people reading that would think the worst of Mr. Middleton, would they not?
16 A. They might. 17 Q. They might? 18 A. They might, yes. 19 Q. What, some people might not -- that he stood by and watched as 20 21 23 25
his staff murderously attacked someone who was quite innocent with machetes? correspondent in Moshi. Mr. Middleton after reading that, would they not?
22 A. This is the story we got from my reporter, from my 24 Q. Yes. But people would think very much the worst of
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1 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 Q. Just tell us what factors were discussed at that meeting?
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MAUGGO - PRICE It depends. On what? Some might not. Some might not; some might think that is fine. Was legal advice taken on that story before it was published? A. I was not the managing editor then, so I don't know whether legal advice was sought. Q. It must have been discussed at the meeting? A. It was not. Q. No? A. No. Q. Just whether it was newsworthy? A. Yes, we discussed that. Q. Nobody said, "Watch out, we might get sued for this"? A. No. Q. No? A. No. Q. Are you sure about that; you remember that? A. Yes, I am sure about that. Q. Then the second article you refer to in paragraph 27, that is on page 24: "Briton to pay 90 million shillings for defamation". Do you remember that story? A. Yes, I do. Q. Do you remember the meeting at which that was discussed? A. Q. A. Q.
1 2 A. What factors about this story? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. We discussed it, we tested it for newsworthiness, and it 5 passed the test. 6 Q. Just for newsworthiness? 7 A. It was (inaudible) concerns to the community. 8 Q. What were the considerations that you had in mind in deciding 9 that it was newsworthy? 10 A. About justice in Tanzania and how it can be compromised by mob 11 justice. 12 Q. This is five and a half years ago, Mr. Mauggo? 13 A. Yes, it is. 14 Q. And you remember all that? 15 A. These facts I remember, actually, because they are basic 16 principles of journalism, that I very well know about. 17 Q. But when I showed you the story, you had no memory of it at 18 all? 19 A. I say it was a lapse of memory. I didn't remember about it. 20 Q. Okay. That story was severely defamatory of Mr. Middleton, 21 was it not? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. What do you mean, you do not know? 24 A. I cannot tell whether it was defamatory. 25
MAUGGO - PRICE
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MAUGGO - PRICE Not the details, but I remember having discussed it. Which meeting? The 4 p.m. meeting. Are you sure? Yes. Not one of the earlier ones? I don't remember about the other one, but at 4 p.m. it was discussed. Q. Just tell us how the discussion went. A. This was a court case, it was a ruling. So, the reporter brought this story. The last paragraph says -- it is not legible here, but I remember it was written -- "the Briton expressed intention to appeal". Q. You remember that? It was five and a half years ago. A. Yes, I do. Q. Why? A. I just do, because we discussed this story and I was there. I took part in the discussion. Q. Can I just take you back to the story at page 21. I am sorry, I moved you on from it, but could I ask you just to go back to it. Do you remember a conversation with Mr. Muchoki about this article? A. (Pause) Not precisely. Q. Do you remember it at all? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
MAUGGO - PRICE A. Not much longer after it was published, because I wanted to make a follow-up. Q. It was.... A. We wanted to make a follow-up. Q. Why did you want to make a follow-up? A. Because that is what we usually do. Q. I am sorry. Having published the story, you then follow it up to see whether it had been properly researched? A. If we cannot come across the other party in good time, then at some later date we do so -- for many stories. Q. So, you suddenly decided that you wanted to find out whether Mr. Middleton had been given an opportunity to comment on this story? A. Not suddenly, but it was just a matter of the normal process that we follow. Q. The normal process is that you first publish the story and then you find out whether the story has been properly researched; is that it? A. Where conditions do not allow earlier intervention. Q. Why did you come back to it later? A. As I said, that is the normal process that we follow. If we cannot get earlier communication, we follow up until we do. Q. How did you know that you could not get an earlier confirmation from Mr. Middleton?
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[Page 416]
MAUGGO - PRICE 2 A. How -- sorry? 3 Q. Did you know whether an attempt had been made to contact 4 Mr. Middleton at the time the decision was taken to publish
1
MAUGGO - PRICE I have a rough idea. What? I have a rough idea, not precise. You tell my Lord what your rough idea is. I think Muchoki was then sub-editor, then Chief sub-editor, and told me that they had sought clarification from the reporter in Moshi about details, and they said he had tried to contact the other party. Q. When was this conversation? A. Sorry? Q. When was this conversation? A. I don't remember precisely, but it was some time in 2007. Q. Before or after the story was published? A. After. Q. After? A. Yes. Q. Hang on, let us get this straight. The story is discussed at the editorial meeting, the decision is made to publish it, it is published, and then at some later date you spoke to Mr. Muchoki about it? A. Yes. Q. Is that right? A. Right. Q. How long after the story was published? A. Q. A. Q. A.
the story? 6 A. We asked the reporter, and he said he had not been across to 7 them, he had not made it, so he made an effort to continue
5
following it. 9 Q. So, you learned from the reporter -- that was Mr. Kimambo, was 10 it?
8 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Sure? 13 A. Sure it is. 14 Q. So, you learned from Mr. Kimambo that he had not made an 15 attempt to contact Mr. Middleton? 16 A. He had made an attempt. He had not been successful. 17 Q. Right. Who spoke to Mr. Kimambo? 18 A. Muchoki did. 19 Q. How did you find out what Mr. Muchoki had said? 20 A. He told me about it. 21 Q. When? 22 A. At the time I said we made the follow-up, some time along. 23 Q. After the story was published? 24 A. Shortly after, yes. 25 Q. So, at the time the story was published, you did not know
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MAUGGO - PRICE whether an attempt had been made to contact Mr. Middleton or not? A. Mr. Muchoki had said he had tried -- he insisted that he made the follow-up, but he had not been successful, he had not been through. Q. But that was later, you say? A. Even before the story was published; but because he failed, he continued looking for the other party until he made the effort that we are talking about. Q. I want to be clear about this, because you say that you contacted Mr. Muchoki after the story had been published? A. But he insisted to me that he had talked to Kimambo earlier, insisting that he contact the other party. Q. I think your evidence is that you did not contact Mr. Muchoki before the story was published? A. Mr. Muchoki had told me earlier even that he did so. Q. Did you speak to Mr. Muchoki before the story was published? A. I spoke to Mr. Muchoki before the story was published and after. Q. So, there are two separate conversations -- one before and one after? A. Maybe more than two, because we continued discussing the issue. Q. This very story?
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
MAUGGO - PRICE cooperate. He decided to speak to Mr. Middleton himself. Mr. Middleton had become very rude. Since Mr. Middleton had refused to comment, I directed Mr. Muchoki to continue with preparations for the article, and I raised the issue in the editorial meeting wherein a decision was made to go ahead." Do you remember all that, Mr. Mauggo?
8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. Really? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. You do not mention the second conversation that you had with 12
Mr. Muchoki after the article was published?
13 A. But this is what happened. 14 Q. When you were describing to my Lord what happened at the 15 16
editorial meeting, you did not mention that this issue was raised at the editorial meeting?
17 A. This is what happened. 18 MR. PRICE: My Lord, perhaps that would be a good moment to break. 19 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, it would. We will resume at two o'clock. 20 21 22
Could you and Mr. Rampton bear in mind that I cannot sit beyond 4.15 this afternoon. We might try to sprint all the way to the finish, but let us see how things go.
23 MR. PRICE: Of course. 24 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Mauggo, as you probably heard me say to 25
previous witnesses, you cannot discuss your evidence with
[Page 418]
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MAUGGO - PRICE anybody until you leave the witness box for the last time, which, hopefully, will be some time this afternoon. (Adjourned for a short time) stories in the Guardian; the one about the murderous attack on the resident of Hai and the other about the defamation damages awarded to Mr. Benjamin Mengi against the Middletons. You remember those two articles that we looked at before lunch?
2 A. Several stories, including this one. 3 Q. What other stories? 4 A. Many, many more. 5 Q. Give us an example of the story that you were discussing with 6
5 MR. PRICE: Before the adjournment, Mr. Mauggo, we looked at two
him at this time?
7 A. Several. 8 Q. Give us an example. 9 A. I can't remember off head, but we discussed many. 10 Q. But you can remember this story? 11 A. This one I remember, yes. 12 Q. Five and a half years ago. 13 14
10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Those stories clearly involved Mr. Benjamin Mengi, did they 12
not?
Perhaps I can just have two minutes, my Lord, because then we will come to a natural break.
13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You were aware of the history of the dispute between 15 16
15 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, of course. 16 MR. PRICE: Look at paragraph 30 of your witness statement. 17 A. 30? 18 Q. Page 121, paragraph 30. You say: "In connection with the 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Mr. Benjamin Mengi and Mr. Middleton over the ownership of a farm near Moshi?
17 A. No, I was not. 18 Q. You had no knowledge of it at all? 19 A. No. 20 Q. So did you think that the article about the attack on the 21
article that came out on 3rd February, I recall a conversation with Mr. Muchoki in which he told me that he had contacted Mr. Kimambo and asked him to seek comment from Mr. Middleton. and told me he had insisted that Mr. Kimambo should make another attempt, later recording to Mr. Muchoki. Mr. Kimambo reported back to him that Mr. Middleton had refused to
resident of Hai had nothing to do with Mr. Benjamin Mengi?
Mr. Kimambo had apparently said Mr. Muchoki had sought comment 22 A. I did not know about the connection.
23 Q. You see, the story mentions the fact that at the time that the 24 25
attack took place, it took place in a pasture belonging to Millie Mengi. You knew that was Benjamin Mengi's wife?
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1 2 A. No. 3 Q. You did not? 4 A. No.
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5 Q. You certainly knew that the story about defamation damages was 6 about Benjamin Mengi because that was the story, that it was 7 8
90 million shillings defamation damages awarded to
Benjamin Mengi? 9 A. Yes, that I knew about. 10 Q. That was clearly a matter that involved a close relation of 11 the proprietor of your newspaper?
12 A. I did not know the connection between the two then. 13 Q. I am sorry? You did not know that Mr. Benjamin Mengi was 14 Mr. Reginald Mengi's brother? 15 A. No, I did not know. 16 Q. Does the surname not give you a clue? 17 A. I know there are many Mengis in Tanzania, so I had no clue
what the connection. 19 Q. It must have been mentioned at the meeting at which the story 20 was discussed, the editorial meeting?
18 21 A. It was not. The connection was not discussed. 22 Q. I have to suggest that almost everybody at the Guardian would 23 have known the background to the matter and would have 24 25
realised that Mr. Benjamin Mengi was Mr. Reginald Mengi's brother?
MAUGGO - PRICE reliable information about Africa? A. I know about the title, but not the details. Q. You do not? A. No. Q. Mr. Kabendera says that editors would be required to show Mr. (Inaudible) stories about Mr. Mengi. Q. I would describe that as a figment of his own imagination. Q. He is either making it up or it is true, is it not? A. That is not true. Q. He said that Mr. Mengi's press secretary dealt mainly with you? A. Completely wrong. Never. As I said, whenever he come to the news room, we just say "hello" and that is all and they go over to the news desk. Q. Do you remember a meeting with Mr. Kabendera in April 2009 when you explained to him that he could not be provided with a written editorial policy? A. It is not true. Q. Was there a written editorial policy? A. Yes. Q. You told him that there were issues that he should not touch. One was negative stories about mining in Tanzania? A. At what occasion? Q. Have there been negative stories about mining in Tanzania and
[Page 422]
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[Page 424]
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MAUGGO - PRICE A. That is your suggestion, but as far as I am concerned I did not know that connection. Q. You remember Mr. Kabendera? A. First name? Q. Erick. A. Yes, I do. Q. You do? It is fair to describe him as a distinguished journalist, is it not? A. Who does? Q. I am asking you. Do you think it is fair to describe him as a distinguished journalist? A. I know him, he is a journalist. Q. Well, he has won a prestigious award in this country? A. In the UK? Q. Yes. A. I do not know about it. Q. You know he now works for magazines, including Africa Confidential. Do you know about Africa Confidential? A. I have read about it, I know about ---Q. That is a highly influential magazine for Western readers about Africa, is it not? A. I do not know what it says, but I know the title. Q. You must know something about it. It is read by business leaders and political leaders in the West as a source of
MAUGGO - PRICE the Guardian? A. Surely. Q. Give us an example? A. I have an example here. Q. Well, maybe it will be put to you in re-examination. You told Mr. Kabendera not to publish anything about President Kikwete? A. Maybe somebody, not me. Q. You think somebody might have done? A. I do not know. Q. As there was a policy (and perhaps is a policy) that negative stories about president Kikwete should not be written. That is right, is it not? A. I do not know about that. I am not informed. Q. Are you saying it might be so, but you do not know of it? A. There is no such policy, as far as I know. Q. As far as you know? A. Yes. Q. Are you sure about that? A. Yes, I am sure. Q. Mr. Kabendera says that it was made clear to him that stories were wanted for the front page relating to Mr. Mengi and his war on corruption and reporting favourably on statements made by his allies. That is how the Guardian proceeds, is it not? A. No, wrong.
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MAUGGO - PRICE Q. No? 3 A. So untrue. 4 Q. Do you remember Mr. Kabendera raising the question as to why 5 at morning meetings, the front page for the next day was 6 discussed? 7 A. I do not remember. That would have been forecasting and I do 8 not forecast. 9 Q. That would be what? 10 A. Forecasting. 11 Q. Forecasting? 12 A. Yes, we do not do that. We do not newscast stories we do not 13 have. 14 Q. You do not remember telling Mr. Kabendera that he was only an 15 employee and that these were orders from above? 16 A. Never. 17 Q. Mr. Mengi sometimes gives cash bonuses to people on the 18 newspapers, does he not? 19 A. I do not know about that. 20 Q. You do not know about it? 21 A. No, no. 22 Q. However, it is ---23 A. I have not even heard about it. 24 Q. You have not even heard about it? 25 A. No.
1 2
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
MAUGGO - PRICE Is he coming here? Is that what you are saying? Just suppose he does? I hope he does. Can you think of a reason why he would wish to lie about Mr. Mengi? A. I am not in his head; I do not think about the reason. Q. You say that he is anxious to get a job back at the Guardian? A. He once was. I do not know about the present status. Q. Also, that he owes 300 or so to Guardian Newspapers? A. My finance department should know about it, not me. Q. You do not know about that? A. I do not know about that. Q. At all? A. I do not know. Q. You have put it in your witness statement. A. I do not know whether he has paid that. Q. What? A. I do not know whether he has paid up now. Q. Let us just see if we can find where it is in your witness statement. We will find that and I will come back to it. You say, in paragraph 3 of your witness statement, that you were Content Editor from 1st January 2007 and then you were appointed as manager in January 2009? A. Correct. A. Q. A. Q.
[Page 426]
MAUGGO - PRICE 2 Q. Do you remember an occasion when you decided not to publish a 3 story about the flotation of Barrick Gold because you thought
1 1
[Page 428]
MAUGGO - PRICE 2 Q. In your second witness statement, at paragraph 6, you say that 3 Mr. Kabendera is quite wrong about Mr. Mshana having been the
4 5
that Mr. Mengi would not like that? 5 A. No such occasion I remember. 6 Q. Are you sure? 7 A. Yes.
4 8 Q. Do you remember a story about expensive residences for 9 executives of the Central Bank of Tanzania? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. You remember that Mr. Kabendera was concerned that the 12 Guardian was not publishing stories about that, critical
Managing Editor, you were the Managing Editor from
January 2009? 6 A. Yes, true. 7 Q. I think what you are saying is that you were never Deputy 8 Managing Editor. Is that right?
9 A. Never. 10 Q. Are you aware that your profile on LinkedIn describes you as 11 Deputy Managing Editor? 12 A. Must have been wrong. 13 Q. You must have put it in, must you not? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Who do you think would have put it in for you? 16 A. I do not know. 17 Q. If you go to page 4 of your second witness statement, which 18 19
stories? 14 A. I do not remember. In any case, Kabendera was not even on the 15 news desk, so that is not true.
13 16 Q. Well, he says that he had a bitter exchange with you. 17 A. A bitter exchange with me? 18 Q. Yes, at which you said to Mr. Kabendera that you had been 19 20 21
you will find in file 2, on page 123(d). File 2, tab 3 at (c). Do you see (c) there?
called the previous evening, at the request of Mr. Mengi, saying that the story had to go on the front page. This is a story sympathetic to the executives of the Central Bank?
22 A. I mean, that would be conjecture by Mr. Kabendera. Never such 23 an incident happened. 24 Q. Can you think of any reason why Mr. Kabendera should want to 25 come here from Tanzania to tell lies about Mr. Mengi?
20 A. Tab 3 at (c), 123 (d)? 21 Q. 123(d). 22 A. Yes, I have seen it. 23 Q. You have seen that. You say that you discovered another 24 reason why Mr. Kabendera may have been unhappy and that was 25
that the Guardian put his request for a reference on hold
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MAUGGO - PRICE until the balance of a loan which was outstanding when he left was paid? A. That is what I have since learned from our HR department. I am not quite sure that he is paid up. Q. That is a reason for him to want to be nice to the Guardian, rather than come to give evidence against Mr. Mengi, is it not? A. I do not know. Q. Did you send an e-mail to Mr. Kabendera in March 2010, describing yourself as the Deputy Managing Editor? A. I do not remember. Q. Well, would you like to look at it? You see, "Wallace Mauggo, Deputy Managing Editor"? A. It is not right. Q. You wrote it. A. It would not have been me. Q. What? A. It would not have been me. Q. Well, it is an e-mail from you. A. I think maybe it has been played with. Q. Okay, it has been cooked up? MR. JUSTICE BEAN: It is an a forgery, is it? A. Yes. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Could I have a look at it? Yes, thank you.
MAUGGO - PRICE 2 MR. PRICE: Does that mean that you accept that it is genuine. 3 MR. RAMPTON: No, absolutely not. 4 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I think the case may be that this is a forgery
1 5 6
by Mr. Kabendera. Perhaps, it should be put to the witness as
to whether it is or not. 7 MR. PRICE: Yes. 8 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Did you ever provide a reference for
9 Mr. Kabendera at his request? 10 A. I do not remember. I might have while he was still at the 11 Guardian. 12 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Perhaps the witness could just be shown the 13 document? 14 MR. RAMPTON: I am a little bit at a loss because, as I say, it is 15 not a document I have ever seen before. I have not even read
it yet. That is for the witness. 17 MR. PRICE: Yes, I have not seen it either. 18 MR. RAMPTON: You produced it.
16 19 MR. PRICE: Perhaps I can ask you, did you send that e-mail to 20 Mr. Kabendera? 21 A. I do not remember. 22 Q. You do not remember? 23 A. No. 24 Q. If you did, is it right that you described yourself as "Deputy 25 Managing Editor"?
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MAUGGO - PRICE 2 A. I could not have because I have never been a Deputy 3 Managing Editor.
1 4 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Just put the title to one side for a moment. 5 There is a reference, which I glanced at; does that read to 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
MAUGGO - PRICE
2 MR. RAMPTON: I have never seen it. 3 MR. PRICE: Nor have I. Perhaps I had better ask you, who took 4 5
your witness statement from you? Who prepared your witness statement?
6 A. Who? Who did what? 7 Q. Who prepared your witness statements? 8 A. My lawyers. 9 Q. The first one, which lawyers? 10 A. (Inaudible) 11 Q. Is he an IPP lawyer? 12 A. He is attached to IPP. I am not quite sure whether he is 13
employed, but he is there.
14 Q. He works in Mr. Nguma's department? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. The second one? 17 A. The second witness statement? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Here. 20 MR. RAMPTON: May I see that piece of paper which has been handed 21 22
you like a reference you would have written about Mr. Kabendera? A. In theory, yes, my Lord, but I do not remember having written the reference. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Is what is said about him in that reference something you might have written? A. What I am saying, my Lord, is that I do not remember ever writing this. As for the contents, maybe, but I do not remember having written this.
in? It has not been disclosed, my Lord. I wonder whether we are entitled to know the provenance of this?
23 MR. PRICE: It comes from Mr. Kabendera. 24 MR. RAMPTON: Yes, thank you. That is all I want to know. Thank 25
you very much.
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MAUGGO - PRICE RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. RAMPTON Q. Mr. Mauggo, I want to ask you about the statement, I think you might call it, by the Speaker -- I think it is by the Speaker -- which you referred to at the beginning of your cross-examination. Could you get out, please, the file with "3" on its spine? A. No. 3? Q. Yes, please. Turn to the second tab, which is (B). Thank you. The third page of that it 37(a). Have you got that? A. Yes, I have got it. Q. This is, supposedly, in Mr. Price's mind, a verbatim transcript of the Speaker's ruling. Is that right. That is what he put to you in cross-examination. Do you remember that? A. Right. Q. In what language was the Speaker's ruling given? A. It was given in Kiswahili. Q. In what language was it printed in the Guardian? A. Any Kiswahili. Q. This is a translation, is it not? A. It is. Q. How many pages did it cover in the Guardian? The Guardian is sort of like the English Guardian, in that it is not quite ----
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
MAUGGO - PRICE Two articles? Yes. They are from Tanzania Daima? Tanzania Daima, yes. They are in Kiswahili, which I am afraid I do not read. What are they? What are they about, those articles? A. It is the ruling by the Speaker. Q. Have they published it in two parts or have they published a whole ruling twice? A. In two parts. Q. On the 10th and the 13th? A. Right. Q. Does that newspaper come out at the weekend? A. The Guardian? Q. Yes. A. Or this one? Q. Can you tell me what the days of the week are in Swahili that are printed at the top of these articles. One is Tanzania ---A. "Jumamosi" is Saturday. Q. Saturday? A. Yes. Q. So it follows that the next one is? A. "Jumanne" is Tuesday. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
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MAUGGO - PRICE A. I think it was four or five pages of broadsheets. Q. So the idea that the Guardian printed 25 pages of the Speaker's ruling is just ---A. It is not true. MR. PRICE: What I put to him was that in the copy we have in the bundle it runs to 23 pages and that is accurate. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I think I have worked that out. It is 23 pages in this bundle, rather generously typed. devote 25 pages to the ruling.
MAUGGO - PRICE Q. So they published the whole thing in two parts, in Swahili, on Friday and Tuesday? Right. A. On different days. Right. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I will put it in after the ---MR. RAMPTON: Mr. Eardley has a suggestion for that. He has given it to me and I have lost it. To follow the one which your Lordship has from the Guardian. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: 37X.
10 MR. RAMPTON: I am trying to establish that the newspaper did not 12 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: No, no, of course not. 13 MR. RAMPTON: You also mentioned that it was also reported in full 14
10 MR. RAMPTON: 37Z or whatever it is, X, and then so on. 11 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. 12 MR. RAMPTON: Only one other thing: you said that the Guardian 13 14
had published articles which were critical of the mining industry in Tanzania?
in a couple of other newspapers.
15 MR. PRICE: One, I think he said. 16 MR. RAMPTON: I think you said (inaudible) and Tanzania Daima? 17 A. No, I remember, I think it was Tanzania Daima. 18 Q. I am going to hand you -- my Lord, these are documents which 19 20 21 22 23 24
15 A. Yes. 16 Q. This is a copy of the Guardian -- you see the size of it -17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
for 21st February 2010. In the light of what was put to you and your denial, I think you are entitled to have a look at that and tell his Lordship what it contains about mining. You may not remember it or you may do. Can I pass it up? I will pass it through my learned friend so he can have a glance at it as it goes. If you look at the front page quickly -- as I would like his Lordship to look at it -- if you look at the front and the bottom of the page, there is a strap along the bottom. What
we disclosed in obedience to your Lordship's order. One for his Lordship, the other side already have them and one for the witness, please. You will find in that little clip two articles, they are clipped together, one dated 10th February and then a couple of pages on, one dated 13th February. Do you see that?
25 A. Right.
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1 2
MAUGGO - PRICE does it say? Mara." water?
1 2 3 5 A. Kwayu. 6 Q. Thank you. There should be, just in front of you there, the 7 8
JESSE KWAYU, SWORN EXAMINED BY MR. RAMPTON
3 A. The strap says, "Secret dossier confirms toxic water in North 4 5 Q. What was it that was at North Mara that was producing toxic 6 7 A. It is North Mara gold mine, which is a Barrick mine. 8 Q. It is a Barrick gold mine? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Turn over the page, please. 11 A. More of that. 12 Q. More about it on pages 2 and 3? 13 A. Yes, more of that and more about the cross-listing. 14 Q. Turn over, please, to pages 8 and 9, a double page spread? 15 A. "North Mara nine months on, villagers still threatened by 16
4 Q. Mr. Kwayu, tell me precisely how I should pronounce your name?
file by your right-hand, please, I think the one on your left hand is the one you will need. Does that have "2" on it?
9 A. Sure. 10 Q. Can you put the other one on the top because it will get in 11 12
the way? Thank you very much. Could you open that up at divider No. 5, please?
13 A. I have it, yes. 14 Q. Do you see there a document with your name on it? It says, 15
"Witness statement of Jesse Kwayu."
mining contamination." a threat to the local people or to their water supply created by Barrick Mining?
16 A. Yes, please. 17 Q. Is that a witness statement that you have made for this case? 18 A. That is true. 19 Q. Will you turn to the end of it, please? Not quite the 20 21
17 Q. Is it fair to say that that is an expos by your newspaper of 18 19
20 A. Indeed, it is. 21 MR. RAMPTON: Thank you very much. Would you pass that to his 22 23
end -- the page number on the bottom right-hand corner will be 151. That is what I want you to look at.
Lordship? Thank you very much. Mr. Mauggo, those are all the questions I have.
22 A. Yes, please. 23 Q. Is that your signature? 24 A. That is true. 25 Q. Yes?
24 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, thank you. 25 MR. RAMPTON: Thank you, Mr. Mauggo. Does your Lordship have any
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KWAYU-RAMPTON 2 A. This is my signature. 3 Q. You must say yes because that thing there is not an amplifier 4 it is a recording microphone?
1 5 A. It is my signature. 6 Q. You say that you believe the facts stated in your witness 7 statement are true. Is that correct? 8 A. That is correct, yes. 9 Q. Thank you very much. I have only one topic I want to ask you 10 about, Mr. Kwayu, and then Mr. Price will ask you questions.
MAUGGO - PRICE questions?
3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: No, I do not think so. Thank you very much. 4 MR. RAMPTON: You may depart. 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
(The witness withdrew) Mr. Boniface Luhanga. There is only a slight hitch with him in that we think that he will need the help of an interpreter and the interpreter will not be here until tomorrow, so we will, if we may, call him tomorrow? I do have two more witnesses here today, if need be. I have told Mr. Price who they are. The first of them is Mr. Jesse Kwayu. this back and you or Mr. Barnes can have a look at it and see if you want any pages copied? I am not going to read the whole thing unless somebody asks me to. Certainly do not anybody go making copies of 24 pages unless there is some point. So Mr. Kwayu, is it? MR. RAMPTON: Yes, my Lord, he is in file 2.
6 MR. RAMPTON: The next witness was to have been a
13 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: With the Guardian? Mr. Price, shall I hand
Do you know a lady called Sakina Datoo? 12 A. Yes, my Lord, I do know her. 13 Q. She has left the Guardian now; were you there when she was 14 working there?
11 15 A. She left the Guardian, I remember. 16 Q. Yes. Do you still keep in touch with her? 17 A. Yes, my Lord. 18 Q. Is she a friend of yours? 19 A. She is a friend of mine, my Lord. 20 Q. When did you last speak to her? 21 A. I can recall around May this year. It was the anniversary of 22 Commonwealth Day. We had some discussion on the 23 24 25
tele-conference regarding the (inaudible) of Commonwealth Day and she called me and she joined me into the conference regarding the subject of the Commonwealth Day.
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2 Q. Yes, I see. She called you? 3 A. Yes, she called me. 4 Q. Do you know where she was in the world when she called you? 5 A. Well, she had been telling me that she was living in London, 6 8 9 10 11
2 A. It is true, I was not there by that time, my Lord. 3 Q. There is not any reason at all why the proprietor of a 4 5
newspaper should not oversee the editorial content of his newspapers, is there?
but I do not know specifically the address. alleged to, I think it was to Mr. Mengi, that in his presence you had three times telephoned Sakina Datoo and told her not to come and give evidence for the defendant in this case? Were you in court? Did you hear that?
6 A. Can you come again? 7 Q. There is no reason why the proprietor of a newspaper should 8
7 Q. Were you in court yesterday when Mr. Price asserted, I think,
not oversee its editorial content?
9 A. The proprietor? 10 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: The owner. 11 A. The proprietor does not oversee the editorial matters of the 12
12 A. I was, yes, I did, my Lord, but it was ---13 Q. Is it true or false? 14 A. It is false, not true at all. 15 Q. Do you ever remember being in a room with Mr. Mengi when you 16
editorial.
13 MR. PRICE: There is no reason why he should not, if he warned to? 14 A. My Lord, what I know, the editorial matters are under the 15
Managing Editors of particular papers.
spoke to Sakina Datoo on the telephone?
16 Q. Sorry, say that again. 17 A. I am saying that the editorial matters of various publications 18 19 21
17 A. Not at all, my Lord. 18 Q. I mean after she had left the Guardian? 19 A. Not at all. 20 Q. Have you spoken to Sakina Datoo about this case? 21 A. Specifically this case? No, my Lord. 22 23 24 25
of the Guardian Ltd is under the Managing Editors of particular newspapers. content, why should he not? There is nothing wrong with it.
20 Q. However, if the proprietor wanted to oversee the editorial 22 A. That is wishful thinking, but as it is, it is not the case. 23 Q. There is no reason why the proprietor should not be the 24
editor-in-chief?
25 A. Well, under the policy we were operating, you are not supposed
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KWAYU-PRICE CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. PRICE Q. Earlier this year you rang Sakina and asked her whether she had been contacted by us about this liable case. Do you remember that? A. I do not remember that. Q. It is quite possible that you would have asked her about that, is it not? A. It is not true, I have never called her regarding this case. Q. On the second occasion you spoke to her on the telephone about this case, you advised her not to get involved. You do not remember that? A. That is not true, my Lord. Q. Are you sure about that? A. I am pretty sure about that, my Lord. Q. Pretty sure? A. Pretty sure about that. Q. If someone were to say that you did, would you say "impossible" or just "I do not remember"? A. That will be lying. Q. You say it will be lying? You were not involved. You became the Managing Editor of Nipashe in July 2008? A. Yes, my Lord. Q. So you had no involvement in any of the stories concerning the Silverdale Farm issue?
KWAYU-PRICE to be so.
3 Q. Under the what? 4 A. The policy. 5 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: "Under the policy we were operating". 6 MR. PRICE: Right. You say that stories concerning Mr. Mengi in
Nipashe are not given preferential treatment? 8 A. That is true, my Lord. 9 Q. There are quite a lot of stories about Reginald Mengi, are 10 there?
7 11 A. No, that is true. 12 Q. Are there more stories about him than about other prominent 13 businessmen? 14 A. Come again? 15 Q. Are there more stories about him than about prominent 16 businessmen? 17 A. I cannot comment on that, but I can remember we cover over the 18 activities that he conducts which are newsworthy and hence we 19
carry them as news items.
20 Q. Are they more newsworthy than activities of other prominent 21 businessmen? 22 A. Well, I should not know. 23 Q. You do not know? Is the reason why you do not cover the 24 activities of other prominent businessmen in the same way ---25 A. No, we do cover various stories from every other people.
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KWAYU-PRICE Q. However, Mr. Mengi's coverage is infinitely greater? A. Well, that is your opinion, but I think we cover other aspects that are newsworthy. Q. Can you recall a critical story about Mr. Mengi? A. Yes, sure. Q. Okay, which one? A. I think of some, I can recall. Q. Can you provide us with examples of them? A. Yes, I can recall some. I think there have been some stories regarding what he was being accused of not being fair to those guys he accused of being the "shark of corruption". That was very critical. I have been hearing other stories when he was alleged, it was criticised by the Government officials on the Kilimanjaro saga and the like. Those I can recall very fast. Q. They were all presented in the newspaper as quite wrong criticism, which Mr. Mengi was able easily to bat away, were they not? A. No, what I am saying, they are critical. Q. You see, Mr. Mengi's lawyers have combed through his newspapers and provided a good deal of material to go into the bundles, but we do not find a story that is critical of Mr. Mengi. A. That is all the same, but all I am saying is I do hear stories which are critical of my Chairman.
1 2
you did not have a witness you got sent away.
3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes, quite. All right. Who is next? 4 MR. RAMPTON: It will be Joyce Mhaville, my Lord, who is on her 5 7 8 9 10 12 13
way, I am told. She is tab 6. request, really, to Carter Ruck for tomorrow. My file 2 of witness statements is on the point of giving up under the burden of paper, and if an empty one could be provided tomorrow that would be appreciated. file 2. Does your Lordship now have a file 1.2 which is up to the job?
6 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: While we are waiting for her, could I put in a
11 MR. PRICE: Yes. We will ensure that there is an empty one marked
14 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. 15 MR. RAMPTON: And your Lordship's other files are all in order? 16 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: So far. 17 MR. PRICE: Good. 18 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: But file 2 is pretty important. 19 MR. RAMPTON: Oh, dear, 20 minutes. Can I therefore mention 20 21 22 23 24 25
something? It does not arise just yet, but it will arise. Your Lordship may remember, when I was opening, I drew attention -- it only recently caught my eye -- but I drew attention in Miss Hermitage's website to some curious statement s -- or at least I thought they were curious -- to the effect that some of the articles that she was referring
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MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, has your Lordship any questions. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: No, I do not. (The witness withdrew) MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you. MR. RAMPTON: I fear we are going to run out of evidence. MR. PRICE: That is all right. MR. RAMPTON: I was not asking Mr. Price. I was asking his Lordship. I hope it will be all right if we do. you had somebody else. is on her way. Mr. Price has romped through his cross-examination in a way which he was warning would not happen, but it has. everybody here that I think it is much better that we should have a provisional timetable in counsel's mind, and if we get through the cast list on a particular day more quickly than anticipated, well, that is splendid.
to, some of the Guardian and Nipashe articles, had been blocked. Your Lordship may remember it. I can show your Lordship. I did mention it, but I do not suppose it was the most riveting piece of oratory ever, so your Lordship has probably forgotten, but I am told I did mention it, and I did say at the same time that we were looking into whether that was so and, if so, to what extent and how. We have been doing that. It becomes particularly acute because Mr. Price's case -- I do not blame him for this -- has altered somewhat. The profile prominence which the articles in Nipashe and the Guardian have in his case has now increased considerably. It has become much more a reply to attack than a common or garden duty in interest privilege that he seems now to be aiming for. He also said on a number of occasions -- once, certainly, in his opening written argument and once, I think, in cross-examination, at least once -- that these articles kept on appearing until March 2010. We have reason to believe that is not right. We think we can provide your Lordship with a precise account of which articles remain on the website and for how long. The reason is that the website underwent a restructuring in May 2009 and a lot of these articles became extremely difficult to access, if they could be accessed at all, and some of them were never on the website at all. From the point of view of your Lordship's judgment, the defence
10 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I shall not be upset, Mr. Rampton. You said 12 MR. RAMPTON: I have one other; I have a television person. She
16 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Rampton, I will say for the benefit of
21 MR. RAMPTON: Then I will shut up. 22 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: It is not like the old Assizes, Mr. Rampton, 23 24
where everybody has to be here on day one and sit here until the end.
25 MR. RAMPTON: Some of us were brought up in a hard school, and if
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have replied to attack. Plainly, the extent to which these articles were available (as I might call it) late on in the history is going to be of some importance. What I am proposing to do, when I have it in my hand, is to ask your Lordship's permission to introduce a Civil Evidence Act witness statement from a technology manager of the website. He can pin down almost exactly which articles appeared when, when they disappeared, when was the last time they were accessible. I certainly hope to have it here by tomorrow, so that Mr. Price and Miss Hermitage can have it over the weekend. It is not necessarily going to be terribly controversial. it before I do, so that Mr. Price is in a position to say either this is uncontentious or this is extremely contentious, and he may want to reply, he may want to have the computer person here. I do not know. prospect is that Miss Hermitage will give evidence on Monday, it seemed to me that we should get it to the other side as soon as possible, wait to see what their response was, and then, if necessary, raise it either by way of argument or just by agreement with your Lordship, when we know what the position is. I am only mentioning it now because we have a
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
serious point is that if evidence is now being introduced of a technical nature in the middle of a trial, that is rather worrying if it is controversial. It may turn out not to be. I know you are a great expert on computer matters, Mr. Rampton, but I am not. We will see what it is when it comes. As I say, so long as the defendant's side have a pre view of it before ---bites deep at 10 to 3 on a Thursday afternoon! assume that the witness is going to be here and ready to go at 3 o'clock. If it turns out not, then get a message to my clerk. (Short adjournment)
9 MR. RAMPTON: All I would say about that is that judicial sarcasm 11 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: We will take a break till 3 o'clock. I will
14 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Well, I do not know. Clearly, they must have
15 MR. RAMPTON: Will do, yes.
19 MR. RAMPTON: That is precisely what I had in mind. Since the
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little bit of time to spend. until 3 o'clock then? has suddenly emerged, your Lordship will recall having seen that in the first letter from Carter Ruck in September 2010, when the Silverdale Farm website publications came to the fore, they said, well, it is the only way in which she can respond; and it is profoundly disappointing that disclosure has been delayed until now. We have been pressing for disclosure on a wide front for a long time, and most of our requests have been ignored and now suddenly this material is, apparently, going to appear in the middle of the trial, when we of course might wish to instruct our own expect to investigate whether it is right. raised. I said it had got a higher profile now than it ever had before. It is not going to be material; it is going to be a witness statement. of reply to attack, that is a preview of a closing submission, and it is a comment you are entitled to make.
3 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Thank you for mentioning it. Shall I go away 5 MR. PRICE: I could just say, on the idea that response to attack
17 MR. RAMPTON: That might be. I did not say that it had never been
21 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Well, as to what you said about the prominence
24 MR. RAMPTON: Yes. 25 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I will say nothing about it. But the more
MISS JOYCE JOAN MHAVILLE, SWORN EXAMINED BY MR. RAMPTON Q. Is it Miss or Mrs? A. Miss. Q. Miss Mhaville. I will get it right before the case is over. Could you look, please, at file 2 and inside that at divider (vi). A. I have found it. Q. Is that the front page, is that your name on it in the middle of the page? A. Yes, it is. Q. Is that the witness statement you made for these proceedings? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you look at the end of the statement, please, which is not quite the end, the last page in this bundle, the last but one, I think. It is 162 in the bottom right-hand corner. A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that your signature? A. Yes, it is, sir. Q. It is dated 18th July 2012. You said that you believe the facts stated in that witness statement are true; is that correct? A. That is correct, sir. Q. They are true?
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MHAVILLE - RAMPTON A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. You are quite an experienced journalist, are you not? 4 A. I am, sir. 5 Q. You are presently the managing director of 6 Mr. Reginald Mengi's company, ITV? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. I think you took that post in December 1999? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. I think you are also the managing editor? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Is that a lot of work, those two posts combined? 13 A. Yes, it is, and I am managing director and I am the managing 14 editor as well, yes. 15 Q. As well? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. When did you become the managing editor? 18 A. I became the managing editor since the inception when I became 19 the managing director. 20 Q. Your early history as a journalist was in print journalism, 21 was it not, newspapers? 22 A. Yes, it was, sir. 23 Q. And you moved to broadcasting in, what, about 1993/94? 24 A. 1994, yes, sir. 25 Q. You have been with ITV in Tanzania ever since?
1 2
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
MHAVILLE CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. PRICE Q. Could I ask you to look at paragraph 17 of your witness statement, Miss Mhaville? A. I have it. Q. Do you have paragraph 17? A. I do. Q. There you refer to the press conference of April 2009 at which Mr. Mengi spoke out against grand corruption and lack of political will on the part of the government. A. Yes. Q. Now, I have not had the advantage of seeing the special programme but Mr. Rampton said that it was a film of the press conference that Mr. Mengi gave, is that right? A. It was a production of that press conference. Q. Just a film of Mr. Mengi speaking? A. Yes. Q. And that at the press conference Mr. Mengi essentially read what was issued as his press release? A. Yes, sir. Q. So, if you look at file 3, which you will see on your right (actually, on the top of the box) tab B, page 47 and 48. This is the press release that Mr. Mengi issued on 23rd April 2009? A. Yes, sir. Q. It starts: "Our country is facing huge problems with
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MHAVILLE - RAMPTON 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 MR. RAMPTON: Thank you. I have no other questions to ask you. 4 Mr. Price will have some questions for you. Please remain
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there.
MHAVILLE - PRICE corruption," that "it is troubled by the fact that people involved in acts of corruption do not want to be touched. The resolve by our President to fight corruption and all the other evils has shaken these people and they are now determined more than ever to combat all the people who are supporting the President." Then just in the fourth paragraph there, "The great efforts of the President to hasten economic development, and so forth, are weakened by the horrendous theft." He condemns the sharks of corruption but does not seem to us that he says anything about lack of political will. A. In the programme? Q. Yes, in this press release which you said was what he read out in the programme. A. Sir, the programme that was brought by his press secretary is what was recorded. Q. Yes. A. And it was in Swahili. Q. It was in Swahili? A. It was in Swahili, yes, sir. Q. Right. You told me a little earlier that what it was, that at the press conference Mr. Mengi said essentially what is in the press release? A. This is a press release in English. Q. Yes.
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MHAVILLE - PRICE A. There was a press release in Swahili. Q. Are you saying that that was different? A. Because what we aired, sir, is what was recorded at the press conference. Q. What we have been provided with does not seem to us to say anything about lack of political will. A. It is there, sir, even in my statement I read it. Q. Okay, you show me where it is. A. In my statement? Q. I know you say that in your statement but when I look at the press release, and this is what we have been provided with and it has Mr. Mengi's signature on the bottom of it, there is absolutely nothing about lack of political will to deal with it? A. Sir, what we aired Mr. Mengi did say those words in the programme that we aired. Q. Right. So what was aired was quite ---A. Lack of political will, which was part of the same statement. Q. That was different to this? A. No, that is why I said, sir, that the programme that we aired, which was the press conference which Mr. Mengi gave, was in Swahili, that is what was aired on ITV. Q. Yes. Are you saying that what was aired in Swahili was different to what was in the press release that Mr. Mengi
MHAVILLE - PRICE 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Perhaps we could be provided with the text of the programme so 4 that we can deal with this properly.
1 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. The special programme went out in the evening of the same dat 7 as the press conference? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And it was, you will accept, highly defamatory. Do you 10 understand that or do you want me to explain it? 11 A. I am sorry? 12 Q. It was highly defamatory. If you do not understand, I will 13 explain. 14 A. I am listening. 15 Q. You do not understand? 16 A. I am listening to what you want to explain to me, sir. 17 Q. The question is, do you agree with me that it was highly 18 defamatory of the five people who were described as sharks of
corruption? 20 A. Sir, we did our job to balance ---21 Q. That is not the question. 22 A. -- the story.
19 23 Q. I will promise you that I will ask you about your job. 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Do you agree that it was highly defamatory of the people who
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MHAVILLE - PRICE issued on that date in English? happen, I am saying what I know what we did. We aired the programme whereby Mr. Mengi was speaking at a press conference with the journalists, and that is exactly what we aired.
3 A. Sir, because there has to be some translation that has to
7 Q. Have you looked at that programme again recently? 8 A. Of late? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. No. 11 Q. Are you able to say that in that programme Mr. Mengi spoke out 12
about lack of political will?
13 A. Yes, he did, sir. 14 Q. How are you able to say that? 15 A. Because I remember. 16 Q. You remember? 17 A. I remember because after I was contacted by our lawyers that I 18 19 21 22 24
have to give a statement, I had to go and refresh my mind and investigate what actually transpired in the programme. specifically said it yesterday, that what was on the programme followed what was in the press release. telling the truth of what I know.
20 Q. We have been proceeding on the footing, and Mr. Rampton
23 A. Sir, I will say what I know. Because I am under oath, I am 25 Q. I understand that.
MHAVILLE - PRICE were named as sharks of corruption? A. No, sir. Q. Not defamatory? A. No. Q. Not at all injurious to their reputation? A. Not at all. Q. Did not injure their reputations at all? A. It was not defamatory, sir, because if it was they would have sued him. Q. One of them did, did he not? You look ---MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Price, I think there is a difference between how libel lawyers use the word "defamatory" and how anybody else uses it. You say that an article is defamatory whether it is true or not. MR. PRICE: Yes. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: It may be just. I think this witness, and indeed most lay people mean defamatory, i.e. ---MR. PRICE: Libelous. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: -- no, it is untrue. So, I am just suggesting you might rephrase the question. MR. PRICE: Well, the five people who were named ---A. Yes, sir. Q. They say it is all untrue, they are not corrupt at all, do they not?
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MHAVILLE - PRICE 2 A. We gave them the opportunity to give their side of the story 3 after the press conference. If I am allowed to say that each 4 one of them gave us a reason that they would not talk.
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Mr. Rostam Aziz said he would talk later, which he did, and we covered his press conference and it went on air. Q. And he denied it? A. He denied it because we gave him the right to also give his side of the story. Q. Yes. A. Yes. Q. And he might have sued you. A. Well, sir, he did not sue. Q. No, but he might have done because he said it was untrue and if it was untrue it was certainly very injurious to his reputation, was it not? A. Maybe but he did not sue us. Q. Just in advance of making the programme you must have been concerned that there might be a lawsuit as a result of broadcasting it? A. No, sir, because we knew that we would balance the story. After we aired the programme, then we made -- before we aired the programme actually, after the press conference, we made sure that we got in touch with everyone who was mentioned in the press conference.
MHAVILLE - PRICE serious allegations of gross corruption and raping the country, in effect ---A. Yes. Q. -- that the most careful checks would be made of the evidence on which it was based? Was that done? A. Sir, I believe when someone calls for a press conference and gives such information then they are prepared with all the information, all the necessary information to prove their case. Q. Would you have covered a press conference of that kind if it had been made by someone other than Mr. Mengi? A. We covered Mr. Rostam Aziz's press conference on the same subject. Q. Yes, but he was replying to what Mr. Mengi had said, was he not? A. We would have covered, we have done it before. Q. So, if Mr. Rostam Aziz had given a press conference accusing Mr. Mengi of being a whale of corruption, you, provided that you have given Mr. Mengi the opportunity to balance it, would have broadcast that? A. We would. Q. And charged him 800? A. If Mr. Rostam Aziz or Mr. Mengi was going to ---Q. Mr. Rostam Aziz.
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1 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Yes, we would.
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2 A. -- was going to buy air time, sir?
were involved and some of them told us, "You will hear from our lawyers," some of them said, "No comment," so we went ahead and we did broadcast the story. Q. Did you take legal advice before it was broadcast? A. No, because we got in touch with the other side so that they could give their side of the story, sir. Q. Am I right that, and I know nothing about the law in Tanzania, that you are perfectly free to broadcast highly outrageous allegations of corruption which, if later in court they turn out to be false, nevertheless, nobody can sue you if there was balance in the programme? Is that right? A. Yes. Q. We may have to look into that. What I suggest is that the programme of that kind making allegations of that gravity would normally go through days, if not weeks, of checks to see that you have the evidence so that the story could be stood up. Do you follow? A. I follow, yes, sir. Q. Am I right? A. Sir, no one has sued us to date for that programme. Q. Is it right, that normally before a programme making very
5 Q. To broadcast a programme accusing Mr. Mengi of being a whale 6
of corruption?
7 A. As long as he has got his facts right, yes, we would. 8 Q. Would you check the facts? 9 A. That is why I am saying, sir, as long as someone is prepared 10 11
to go out there in public and mention names, it means he has got all his facts right.
12 Q. I am sorry, I was interrupting you. 13 A. What we do is before we air the programme we actually check 14 15 16 17 19 20 21 22 23
with the person who has been mentioned that, "There is this information about you, what do you say?" And whatever answer they want to give, that is the answer that we are going to put when we are going to air it, sir. press conference and spoken for 11 minutes saying that Mr. Mengi was a whale of corruption, a whale of corruption being Mr. Rostam Aziz's description later of Mr. Mengi, that you would have given Mr. Mengi the opportunity to say, "No, it's all lies."
18 Q. So, let's get this straight, if Mr. Rostam Aziz had called a
24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And then you would have broadcast all 11 minutes of Mr. Rostam
[34] (Pages 461 to 464)

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MHAVILLE - PRICE Aziz? A. We would. Q. I have to suggest to you that that is simply not true, Miss Mhaville. A. That is the truth. I am under oath. I have no reason ---Q. Tell me another occasion on which you have broadcast so long a press conference by a prominent businessman making very serious accusations against other people. A. We did broadcast a 20-minute statement given by the Minister for Good Governance. Q. He is the Minister. A. Yes, but he was talking about Mr. Mengi and he called him all sorts of names and all sorts of things he talked about him. Q. And then you ---A. And it was in regards to the selling of the then Kilimanjaro Hotel. Q. The selling of? A. The Kilimanjaro Hotel. It was then called Kilimanjaro Hotel. Q. The Kilimanjaro Hotel? A. Yes, and now it is called Hyatt Kempinski. Q. That was a statement by the Minister of Good Governance? A. It was not a statement, he was actually talking; he called a press conference. Q. At a press conference?
MHAVILLE - PRICE
2 Q. So you would assume they would have got their facts right? 3 A. We believe that the facts are right, that is why they have the 4 6 7
courage to go into public and mention someone else. do this for anyone other than the chairman and proprietor of this TV station. Do you follow?
5 Q. I suggest to you that it is quite inconceivable that you would
8 A. We have been doing it, sir. 9 Q. But you never have. 10 A. We have done it. 11 Q. Only in the case of a senior minister giving a press 12 14 15 17 19 21 23 24 25
conference, which is another matter, is it not? public should hear it, that is why we gave him the opportunity to go on air. this before it was broadcast? requesting for air time. have to pay 800." to the marketing department, that is the normal procedure where whoever wants to come and air a programme on our station has to go through the marketing department, and they check
13 A. Why? Because we believe he had something to say and the
16 Q. Was an agreement made to charge Mr. Mengi for broadcasting 18 A. No, it was made when we were approached by his press secretary 20 Q. You said, "Well, that's fine, you can have it but you will 22 A. We said this is a procedure that has to be followed. He went
[Page 466]
MHAVILLE - PRICE 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And you reported Mr. Mengi's rather sharp observations about 4 the Minister?
1 5 A. Actually, what happened, sir, the observations by Mr. Mengi 6 were not sharp, as it were. He was just talking of the 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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[Page 468]
MHAVILLE - PRICE with the programming department to ensure that the air time is available as per the request. Q. I find this very puzzling because you say you aired the programme because it was topical and newsworthy? A. Yes, sir. Q. So what if the press secretary had said, "Well, why should I pay you 800 for broadcasting something topical and newsworthy?" A. We would not have aired it if he did not pay. Q. You would not? A. No. MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Why not? A. Because we have a procedure that we do not air anybody's programme regardless of who the person is because that is the source of our revenue, and our business is air time, my Lord, so what we normally do is we charge for the air time. What we do is we offset the normal programme which is supposed to be airing at that particular time to put in a programme that has come on request because someone would like to air a programme at that particular time. So we charge. We do not give it for free. Q. So, is it like a sort of advert? A. It is a paid for programme. It is kind of an ad, but it is a paid for programme.
procedure that took place and the Minister was very upset about that and he called a press conference. We were invited, and we gave the opportunity, we covered the press conference and we aired what the Minister said for 20 minutes. Q. Ah, so the Minister was responding to accusations that Mr. Mengi had earlier made, is that right? A. He did not accuse, Mr. Mengi did not accuse him. He was talking of a procedure. Q. I want to be quite clear about this, is your evidence to my Lord that if a private individual, a prominent businessman, called a press conference to make highly and very serious allegations of crime against other named individuals, that you would broadcast that? A. As long as -- we get in touch with the person who has been mentioned by this other individual and we get his side of the story, and we will air that. Q. Without checking the facts? A. Because the person cannot come out in public and mention someone's name unless they have the facts right.
[35] (Pages 465 to 468)

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MHAVILLE - PRICE 2 Q. Does the TV screen say "This programme is being paid for", or 3 is it just like any other programme, so far as the viewer
1
MHAVILLE - PRICE 2 A. No, in the society, because there was a programme that we 3 aired ---1 4 Q. Give me an example of a programme by a private individual, 5 just a businessman? 6 A. We had a programme which we aired recently by Pepsi, Pepsi 7 Cola, when they won the award, and they bought half an hour to
knows? 5 A. We have got two types of programmes. Normally, we have got 6 the programmes that have got sponsorship, that will come with
4 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
an opening billboard saying "This programme is brought to you by", with the sponsorship of so and so; but the other programmes, like the one that we aired of Maffisadi, this is the type that is paid in the marketing department and then it is aired, without any announcement "This programme is brought to you by so and so". We do that for ministries, we do that for civil societies, we do that for various other groups that
air their strength, to air their success. 9 Q. Did they make allegations of criminal behaviour against named 10 individuals?
8 11 A. No, they did not make any criminal allegations in this 12 particular incident. 13 Q. Well, I have already suggested to you that it is inconceivable 14 that you would do this for anyone other than Mr. Mengi?
come to air their programmes, sir. 15 MR. PRICE: But you are talking about civil societies, about 15 A. No, sir. We have been doing it. 16 government speeches or announcements, or programmes produced 16 Q. Has Mr. Mengi's press secretary ever brought anything else to 17 17 by public institutions? you?
18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. What about private individuals, just a businessman? 20 A. They do bring. 21 Q. To you? 22 A. Yes, they do. They do, sir. 23 Q. And they pay? 24 A. They pay. 25 Q. And then they broadcast them?
18 A. To me? There have been other programmes that they have 19 brought before. 20 Q. By Mr. Mengi's press secretary? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And they get broadcast? 23 A. And they paid for air time. 24 Q. And they are paid for? 25 A. Yes.
[Page 470]
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[Page 472]
MHAVILLE - PRICE 2 Q. Have you ever turned one down? 3 A. The time they requested for air time and we could not give 4 them the air time, then we don't take the programme on; but
1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
MHAVILLE - PRICE A. Yes. Q. For 11 minutes? A. No. Actually, it depends on the duration. It could be 11, it could be 15, it could be 10. We have got either 5, 10, 15, half an hour. We have got the durations that one can buy air time to air those programmes. Q. I have asked you already, but I will have another go. Give me an example of a paid for broadcast by a private individual making extremely serious allegations of criminal behaviour by other named people? A. We had a paid for programme paid for by the strongest opposition party in Tanzania. Q. Well, that was a political party? A. Yes, but that is private. That is a private person who bought the air time. Then we also had, during the elections ---Q. Did they make serious allegations of criminal behaviour? A. Yes, they did, to the government. Q. Of the government? A. Yes. Q. Oh, right. A. And to other individuals in society. They did. Q. Other individuals in the society? A. Yes. Q. You mean in government?
any time they come and the air time is available and they pay for the air time, we take the programme, because our business is to sell air time. Q. So, it is only because you need the money, not because it is Mr. Mengi's press secretary? A. No, sir, and the content has to be relevant as well. Q. Now, the Tanzania Communications regulatory authority condemned or criticised the programme and, indeed, asked for information about it and said it should not be re-broadcast? A. Yes, sir. Q. Because you had departed from the agreed schedules? A. We have always been doing that, sir. But what you say is true, that that is what they had requested and that is the letter they wrote to us. Q. Yes, that is what they said? A. Yes. Q. And you had departed from the agreed schedules? A. But, sir, it is a normal trend that you always do that. Having any special programme is not always part of the normal schedule. We have done that before. Q. Why do you say that the regulatory authority took action
[36] (Pages 469 to 472)

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MHAVILLE - PRICE against you for this? A. They wrote to us but, to be honest, to date they have never taken any action, and they told us to stop, not to re-broadcast, but we had already stopped broadcasting the programme, because we broadcasted the programme for the two times that had been paid for. Q. The Minister was extremely critical both of Mr. Mengi and of Mr. Rostam Aziz for using their own media outlets for their own purpose, was he not? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you say that that was politically motivated? A. It was politically motivated. Q. Again, as we see, what Mr. Mengi said -- and I can only go on what I have been provided with, which, after all, is what Mr. Mengi signed -- it is absolutely no criticism whatever of the government; on the contrary, it says that the government is "wonderful". So, why was it politically motivated? A. To stop us from airing the programme? Q. Why -- yes. A. Because there are individuals in the government who do not exactly want to support the fight against corruption. Q. But Mr. Mengi did not say anything about that? A. I am saying what I know, sir. Q. So, you are saying that the government wanted to stop you
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
MHAVILLE RE-EXAMINED BY MR. RAMPTON MR. RAMPTON: Well, even if he had not paid for it, Miss Mhaville -- let me ask you something -- you made the decision that this broadcast should be made? A. Yes, sir. Q. You are now the managing editor. Were you managing editor at that time as well? A. Yes, I was, sir. Q. And you are the managing director ---A. Yes. Q. -- of the television company. You have a long history in journalism? A. Yes, sir. Q. How often does ITV broadcast hard-hitting items of this kind? A. Actually, sir, we have two live shows on ITV. One has got an audience of 50 people every Thursday, and it goes out live, and we deal with issues that really touch the country. It is every week; it is a weekly show. Q. Do those programmes contain material -- I am not going to use the word "defamatory"; it is a funny English lawyers' word -programmes that are rude about people? A. They do, sir -- actually, not rude, as in rude, but people do state facts about issues that involve certain individuals, and the names are mentioned.
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MHAVILLE - PRICE broadcasting stuff which was against corruption? A. Yes, sir. Q. Despite the fact that what Mr. Mengi said was extremely supportive of the President? A. But then again, they are individuals who are actually not in favour of the President carrying out this war against corruption, and that is what Mr. Mengi was saying. Q. Well, I suggest that this is as clear an example as anybody could ask for of Mr. Mengi using his TV station for his own purposes; that is what it is, is it not, Miss Mhaville? A. No, sir. No, sir. Q. No? A. No, sir, because he paid for the air time. It was not for free, sir. MR. PRICE: Thank you.
MHAVILLE - RAMPTON Q. How often do you get sued for programmes like that? A. We haven't been sued for any of them. Q. Tell me this, finally: so far as you, personally, are concerned, the managing editor and the managing director of this television company, at the time of this broadcast, speaking personally from your knowledge of Tanzanian public affairs over a long period of time as a journalist, was corruption a big problem in Tanzania, or not? A. It was, and it still is. Q. It still is? A. It still is. Q. Is it something which, in your view, as the boss of this broadcasting business, needs to be kept in the public eye? A. It has to be kept in the public eye. Q. Is Mr. Mengi a prominent person in Tanzania? A. He is, sir. Q. Does what he says about this subject of corruption help to keep it in the public eye? A. What he says as Mr. Mengi, it does. It does very much. Q. Is that because he is the boss of ITV and the Guardian or because he is an industrialist or a philanthropist, or for what reasons? A. It is because he is a Tanzanian who cares for his own country -- call him philanthropist, call him -- not because he
[37] (Pages 473 to 476)

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MHAVILLE - RAMPTON is the owner of ITV or because he is the owner of the Guardian, because he started this war way before he had ITV or he had the Guardian. five other people of being "sharks of corruption", that is newsworthy, is it not?
1 2 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Who is expected tomorrow? 3 MR. RAMPTON: Mr. Luhanga, with an interpreter; and that will be 4 5 7 8 9 10
our last live witness. If you wish Mr. Eardley to read the Civil Evidence Act statements into the record, he will do so. drill is that if anybody in court, from the media or elsewhere, asks to see a copy, they must be allowed to see a copy. Having done that, there is not much point reading it out, is there?
5 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: If any prominent person in any country accuses
6 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I do not think that is necessary, is it? The
8 A. It is newsworthy, yes, it is. 9 MR. RAMPTON: Did you have any reason to suppose that Mr. Mengi 10 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20
was making it up, inventing it? mentioned by the Secretary General of one of the opposition parties in Tanzania, and he mentioned a list of shame of 11 people, and these five names are also in that list. Mr. Mengi speaks publicly on an issue of this kind, do you think that people in Tanzania -- I am not talking about the government, I mean the citizens of Tanzania, the viewers of your programmes, the readers of your newspapers -- do you think people listen to him?
11 A. No, sir, because previously there was a list of shame that was
11 MR. RAMPTON: No, I do not see that there is. 12 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Right. On those terms, then, it will not be 13 15
necessary. will close our case tomorrow.
14 MR. RAMPTON: So, unless Mr. Price gets a fresh wind tomorrow, we 16 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Mr. Muchoki is ---17 MR. RAMPTON: He is Civil Evidence Act, and so is Bishop Malasusa 18
15 Q. My last question: so far as you are aware, Miss Mhaville, if
and so is Mr. Chuwa.
19 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Right. 20 MR. PRICE: My Lord, I shall be a little while with Mr. Luhanga, 21 22 23 25
21 A. They do, sir. 22 MR. RAMPTON: Thank you very much. 23 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: I have no further questions. Thank you very 24
but I would be very surprised if I was all morning; and as soon as I have finished, I would propose to put Mr. Middleton into the witness box. there will be a judgment in another matter listed but, again,
much.
24 MR. JUSTICE BEAN: Yes. Right. 10.30 tomorrow, then. Yet again,
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you, my Lord.
[Page 478]
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MHAVILLE - RAMPTON (The witness withdrew)
it is no more than a minute, because nobody will be here. (Adjourned till tomorrow morning at 10.30.)
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PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 481] 435:2,7,19 436:13 447:25 448:2,11,17,20 448:22 449:3,8 asked 354:5 360:21,23 369:20 374:18 378:20 416:6 418:21 442:3,7 470:8 472:12 asking 350:8 352:20 367:14 369:21 370:6 381:18 422:11 446:8,8 asks 351:9 438:16 479:8 aspects 445:3 assaulted 411:12 Assembly 393:4,5 asserted 441:7 assign 409:10 assistance 394:23 assisted 398:16 Assizes 446:22 assume 451:12 467:2 attached 430:12 attack 411:8 420:6,20,24 448:13 449:2 450:5,22 attacked 411:20 attacking 376:11 attempt 411:13 416:3,15,16 417:2 418:24 attend 408:18 attended 392:7,7 392:12 409:12 attending 409:22 attention 347:9,10 357:7 360:15 447:22,23 audience 475:17 authority 472:11 472:25 available 449:3 468:3 472:5 avid 330:16 avoid 359:3,7 await 358:23 award 422:14 471:7 awarded 420:8 421:7 aware 337:6,20 352:23 420:14 428:10 477:15 awareness 394:24 398:15,24 399:13 Aziz 461:5 463:18 463:24,25 464:18 465:2 473:9 Aziz's 463:13 464:21 a.m 398:19 B b 339:19 340:3,22 340:23 341:3 393:3 400:4 433:9 455:22 BA 389:17 back 332:18,21 335:17 338:15 339:2 343:18 361:14 372:21 375:4 376:5 378:8 381:24 387:6 413:20,21 415:21 418:25 427:8,21 438:14 background 389:14 421:23 balance 429:2 459:20 461:21 462:3,15 463:20 Bank 426:9,21 Barclay's 386:2,7 Barnes 329:20 438:14 Barrick 426:3 437:7,8,19 based 463:6 basic 410:16 bat 445:17 BEAN 329:6 331:4,7,9 334:16 342:24 346:4,10,13 354:21,25 355:4 355:6 360:7 371:17,24 372:3 372:6,9,11 373:12,14,16 375:19 376:3,18 383:3 384:2 385:5 386:6,10 387:11,13 394:13 404:22 411:4 418:15 419:19,24 429:23,25 431:4 431:8,12 432:4 432:10 434:8,12 436:5,9,11 437:24 438:3,13 443:10 444:5
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
A able 347:4 445:17 458:11,14 abolished 377:23 absolutely 333:6 344:4 431:3 457:14 473:16 accept 335:11 399:20 431:2 459:9 accepted 350:9,19 352:11 363:3 access 448:23 accessed 448:23 accessible 449:10 accident 344:17 account 338:24 448:20 accurate 388:10 388:11 389:5 434:7 accusations 375:4 465:9 466:11 accuse 375:14 466:13,13 accused 445:11,12 accuses 336:2 477:5 accusing 336:22 375:2 463:18 464:5 act 345:12 379:12 379:13,13,20,23 380:12,14,17 381:12 449:6 479:5,17 acting 330:25 341:23 344:9 349:13 351:11 360:3 362:6 action 472:25 473:4 actions 359:17 activities 380:23 444:18,20,24 acts 456:3 actual 338:8 acute 448:9 ad 468:24 add 359:16 address 394:16 396:9 441:6 addressed 341:6 359:19 360:13 379:8 390:25 391:2,3 Adjourned 420:4 480:3 adjournment 372:10 420:5
451:16 advance 461:18 advantage 455:12 advert 468:23 advice 339:15,17 339:20,23,24 340:3,7,10,24 341:3 342:13,14 342:15,19,20,23 342:25 343:2,4 343:7,13,15 344:14 346:18 347:5 348:3,5,7 348:8,9,12,14 348:15,22,23,25 349:3,5,10,13 350:10,20 351:9 352:3,8,12 357:3,23 358:3 360:9 412:6,8 462:2,8 advise 341:24 344:11 345:12 351:10 advised 347:16 352:25 355:8 378:22 379:10 442:11 advocate 358:25 359:5,9 affairs 358:8 380:23 476:8 afraid 435:6 Africa 422:18,19 422:22 423:2 afternoon 397:13 419:21 420:3 451:10 AGAPITUS 330:2 Agency 390:6,9 agent 381:13,14 agents 381:11 ago 339:24 340:24 349:9 394:2,4 395:10 397:17 399:3 406:6 410:13 413:15 418:12 agree 459:17,25 agreed 396:17 472:15,21 agreement 449:24 467:16 Ah 466:11 ahead 401:6 419:6 462:7 AIDAN 329:19 aiming 448:14 air 461:6 464:2,13 464:17 466:22
467:15,19,24 468:2,14,16,17 468:20 469:14 470:6,7,16 471:8,8,23 472:3,4,5,6,7 474:14 aired 457:4,16,17 457:18,21,23,24 458:4,6 461:22 461:22 466:10 468:4,10 469:9 469:11 471:3,6 airing 468:19 473:19 allegation 336:12 allegations 348:17 462:13,18 463:2 466:18 470:10 470:17 471:9,11 alleged 335:25 336:20 441:8 445:14 allegedly 332:11 alleges 376:20 allies 424:24 allow 415:20 allowed 364:19 461:3 479:8 altered 448:10 ammunition 358:22 360:12 amount 394:21 amplifier 440:3 anniversary 440:21 announcement 469:11 announcements 469:16 annual 398:11 answer 335:8 341:21 350:19 378:4,23 402:24 464:15,16 answered 356:20 356:22 anticipated 446:20 anti-graft 399:24 anxious 427:8 anybody 420:2 438:17 460:14 474:9 479:7 anybody's 377:16 468:14 anyway 383:22 apart 356:9,10 Apologies 387:14 apparently
333:16 418:22 450:14 appeal 413:14 appear 374:19 386:3 450:14 appeared 329:19 329:21 403:7 409:2 449:8 appearing 448:18 appears 373:9 374:17 380:14 382:3 400:23 appointed 362:15 362:22 427:24 appointment 362:22 appreciated 447:10 approach 358:25 approached 467:18 approaches 407:10 appropriate 358:23 appropriately 358:24 approval 392:17 April 358:19 378:7 379:3 382:2 423:16 455:8,23 argument 448:16 449:23 arisen 390:18 arising 343:20 385:3 arrange 374:20 375:8 arrangements 375:7 article 331:3,4,5,6 331:6,15,18 332:14,19 333:3 333:13,23 334:3 334:5 336:8 392:21,25 393:2 393:3 394:9,11 394:22 395:17 396:4 399:23 400:4,8,15 401:5 408:25 412:21 413:23 418:19 419:5,12 420:20 460:14 articles 330:5,7,10 333:22 353:5,6 354:8,14 379:5 382:7 404:18,25 420:9 434:22
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LONDON, WC2A 1HP
446:3,5,10,16 446:22 447:3,6 447:14,16,18 449:14 450:3,21 450:25 451:11 460:12,17,20 468:13 477:5,23 479:2,6,12,16 479:19,24 bear 419:20 bears 371:10 beg 378:13 beginning 433:5 begins 334:10 behalf 334:7 behaviour 470:10 470:17 471:9 believe 376:19 388:9 405:8 407:18,20,21 408:18,20,21 440:6 448:18 452:21 463:7 467:3,13 believed 366:15 belonging 402:2 420:24 BENCH 329:1 benefit 446:16 Benjamin 330:23 330:25 331:15 335:2,7 338:2 338:10,17 341:23 344:10 347:24 350:16 362:9 406:3,11 420:8,11,15,21 420:25 421:6,8 421:13,24 best 360:9 376:2 392:5 better 371:18 376:4 379:20 408:7 411:4 430:3 446:17 beyond 419:21 big 373:22 476:9 billboard 469:7 Bishop 479:17 bit 362:14 372:22 380:19 389:14 431:14 450:2 bites 451:10 bitter 426:16,17 blame 448:10 blocked 448:3 Board 335:15 336:12 356:15 356:15 body 362:20
380:18,20,24 bold 400:12 Boniface 438:7 bonuses 425:17 borrow 398:9 boss 476:13,21 bother 333:17 347:21 359:15 bothered 359:24 bottom 388:4 394:21 408:25 436:25,25 439:20 452:17 457:13 bought 470:15 471:7 box 330:11 339:4 339:6 365:18 386:14 387:13 420:2 455:22 479:23 breach 336:13 break 372:4,9 418:14 419:18 451:11 Breed 329:19 bring 359:21 469:20 Britain 331:24 332:5 British 331:12 334:11 411:12 Briton 412:22 413:13 broadcast 462:7,8 462:12 463:21 464:5,25 465:7 465:10 466:19 467:17 469:25 470:9 471:22 475:5,15 476:6 broadcasted 473:6 broadcasting 389:20 453:23 461:20 467:16 468:8 473:5 474:2 476:14 broadsheets 434:2 brother 349:14,23 350:12,16,21 351:5,6,8,11 362:6 421:14,25 brothers 350:5 brought 360:15 398:18 402:23 413:12 446:25 456:15 469:7,11 471:16,19 building 336:21 bundle
374:17 392:24 408:25 434:7,9 452:16 bundles 445:22 burden 447:9 bush 335:16,17 336:10,20 business 347:14 354:18 365:6 375:3 407:9 409:25 422:24 468:16 472:6 476:14 businessman 332:18 334:13 405:12,14 465:8 466:16 469:19 471:5 businessmen 444:13,16,21,24 buy 383:18 464:2 470:6 C c 329:23 428:19 428:19,20 cabinets 374:2 calculations 392:14,19 call 433:4 438:10 449:3 476:25,25 called 352:23 353:20 378:15 396:12 409:3 426:19 440:11 440:24 441:2,3 441:4 442:9 464:18 465:13 465:19,21,23 466:8,17 calls 396:8 463:7 campaign 338:7 capable 348:18 capacity 345:14 cardboard 387:13 careful 376:5 463:5 cares 476:24 carried 401:11,13 401:16 carry 350:22 373:16 395:2 398:16 400:16 405:19 409:10 444:19 carrying 474:7 Carter 447:7 450:7 Carter-Ruck 329:21 case 338:3,3,6,18
338:19 347:23 348:13 351:5 371:2,4,18 375:25 381:3 387:23 388:18 389:11 413:11 426:14 431:4 439:17 441:10 441:20,21 442:4 442:9,11 443:22 448:9,12 452:6 463:10 467:11 479:15 cases 338:4 cash 425:17 cast 446:19 caught 447:22 Central 426:9,21 centre 396:9,13 398:12 ceremony 394:17 certain 356:19 357:16 376:11 475:24 certainly 331:3 343:18 358:22 366:24,24 367:2 367:15 370:12 376:2 385:15 421:5 438:16 448:15 449:10 461:15 chaired 397:16,19 397:21 chairman 350:25 352:20 353:9,13 353:15,16 354:6 354:13 356:5,7 357:10,20 359:2 359:6,9,10 377:5 445:25 467:6 Chairman's 349:22 chairperson 362:19 challenges 399:24 chance 385:17 Chancery 329:16 character 398:9 characteristic 387:12 charge 467:16 468:17,21 charged 331:24 463:23 charges 332:6 337:5,8,10,11 337:15,16,22 check 464:8,13
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
8 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 483] 336:16,18 Dar 354:2 389:15 dark 350:13 351:2 dat 459:6 date 371:10 414:20 415:11 458:2 462:24 473:3 dated 358:6,19 379:23 434:22 434:23 452:21 Datoo 362:14 363:20,22 371:4 374:7,17,20 376:9,13 377:13 440:11 441:9,16 441:20 Datoo's 364:7 368:2,11,13,19 368:21 369:10 371:5 374:15,16 day 329:23 367:5 383:7,13,20,21 385:6,11,12 386:7 392:15 397:6,9 425:5 440:22,23,25 446:19,23 days 332:10 392:8 392:10 435:18 436:4 462:19 day-to-day 356:17 357:14,21 358:13 359:11 deal 355:14,15 358:24 374:4 378:3 445:21 457:14 459:4 475:18 dealing 339:7,11 dealt 377:17 423:11 dear 354:12 447:19 December 453:8 decide 404:9 decided 349:19 350:25 351:14 365:13 367:15 407:15 415:12 419:2 426:2 deciding 404:7 410:9 decision 394:25 398:16,24 400:16 403:18 409:10 414:19 416:4 419:6 475:5 deep 451:10 defamation 338:3 338:6 380:10,12 382:8 412:23 420:7 421:5,7 defamatory 379:5 408:4,5 410:21 410:25 411:3,5 459:9,12,18,25 460:4,9,13,14 460:18 475:21 defence 448:25 defendant 329:12 329:21 338:5 355:25 382:8 441:10 defendant's 451:7 delayed 450:11 deliberately 344:6 349:25 delivered 383:7 383:13 385:7 delivery 368:16 368:17 demand 347:11 358:24 393:9 demolished 336:22,24 denial 436:18 denied 461:7,8 depart 438:4 departed 472:15 472:21 department 342:10 343:16 344:3 427:11 429:4 430:14 467:23,25 468:2 469:10 Depending 392:19 depends 411:3 412:2 470:4 deputy 409:24 428:7,11 429:11 429:14 431:24 432:2 describe 392:25 422:8,11 423:8 described 403:3,4 431:24 459:18 describes 411:7 428:10 describing 419:14 429:11 description 464:21 deserved 353:12 designed 343:11 343:17,21,23 344:6,8,16 desk 383:7 407:3
361:23 complained 353:5 353:7 complaining 358:23 complaint 338:8 347:14 353:18 353:25 354:8,10 356:20 359:4,8 359:14 360:18 360:20 393:5 complaints 338:8 347:16 355:14 complete 363:8 377:15,16 completely 351:2 377:5 404:17 423:13 complied 375:21 compromised 410:11 computer 449:17 451:5 concern 407:19 concerned 338:4 347:23 348:13 379:17 380:22 381:3 399:13 422:2 426:11 461:19 476:5 concerning 355:10 388:20 405:7 442:24 444:6 concerns 410:8 conclusion 362:4 condemned 472:12 condemns 456:10 conditions 415:20 conducts 444:18 conference 440:24 455:8,14,15,18 456:22 457:5,22 458:5 459:7 461:3,6,23,25 463:7,11,13,18 464:19 465:8,24 465:25 466:8,9 466:17 467:12 Confidential 422:19,19 confirmation 415:25 confirms 437:3 conflict 341:24 343:5 conflicted 342:16 349:2,5 350:11 350:21 352:11 confusion
346:5 conjecture 426:22 connection 418:18 420:22 421:12 421:18,21 422:3 consider 361:16 considerable 377:10 considerably 448:12 considerations 410:9 considered 339:20 342:12 344:2 352:2 393:11 394:24 396:14 398:14 considering 345:3 considers 343:2 conspiring 337:6 337:19 constant 376:10 construction 394:17 consult 347:18 contact 414:9 416:3,15 417:2 417:14,15 contacted 417:12 418:20 442:4 458:17 contain 475:20 contains 374:19 436:19 contamination 437:16 content 362:7,8 363:5,15,25 364:9,10,15,17 364:22 365:10 392:4 395:8 402:11 408:18 409:12 427:23 443:4,8,21 472:10 contentious 449:16 contents 365:24 432:13 continue 361:25 416:7 419:4 continued 330:3 417:9,23 contract 336:13 337:6,19 contrary 473:17 contributions 332:12 controversial 366:4,22 449:13
451:4 conversation 413:22 414:10 414:12 418:19 419:11 conversations 417:21 cooked 429:22 cooperate 419:2 coordinator 398:12 copied 438:15 copies 370:15,24 374:11 375:9 383:21 438:17 copy 357:7 368:7 368:10,23 369:15,22,24 370:4,12 373:4 373:5,6 374:6 374:21,21 383:13,19 393:14 403:13 434:6 436:16 479:8,9 corner 380:2 388:4 408:25 439:20 452:17 corporate 377:8 380:19,20,24 corporations 380:9,16 correct 427:25 440:7,8 452:23 452:24 correspondent 409:3 411:23 corrupt 400:14,24 401:8 460:24 corruption 424:23 445:12 455:9 456:2,3,4,10 459:19 460:2 462:13 463:2,19 464:6,20,20 473:22 474:2,8 476:9,18 477:6 counsel 373:17 377:8 counsel's 446:18 country 422:14 455:25 463:3 475:18 476:25 477:5 counts 342:13 couple 380:5 434:14,23 courage 467:4 course 359:25 361:15 365:4
375:22 385:5 393:6 395:13 418:15 419:23 434:12 450:15 court 329:1,16 331:13 332:6 343:12,21 344:7 344:14 371:14 383:2 390:25 401:18 413:11 441:7,11 462:13 479:7 courtesy 357:8 Courts 329:2 cover 385:18,18 433:23 444:17 444:23,25 445:3 coverage 404:15 404:19 405:15 405:17,19 445:2 covered 362:2 461:6 463:11,13 463:17 466:9 covers 393:14 create 405:20 created 437:18 crime 466:18 criminal 380:12 470:10,17 471:9 471:11 critical 401:3,4,7 401:21 402:9,21 403:2,21 405:19 406:3,10,11 426:12 436:13 445:5,13,19,22 445:25 473:8 criticised 445:14 472:12 criticism 445:17 473:16 cross-examinati... 330:3 433:6,14 446:14 448:17 CROSS-EXAM... 392:2 442:2 455:2 cross-listing 437:13 crusade 399:24 curious 447:23,24 D d 329:23 352:14 365:19,20,21 398:3,13 428:20 Daima 434:16,17 435:4,5 damages 420:7 421:5,7 damaging 336:8
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
8 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 484] 434:10 established 342:8 ethically 462:3 Europe 338:15 evening 426:19 459:6 event 403:19 405:7 events 405:4 everybody 406:18 421:22 446:17 446:23 evidence 329:23 353:17 362:4 373:15,18 374:11 379:9 388:20 417:15 419:25 429:7 441:10 446:6 449:6,20 451:2 462:20 463:5 466:15 479:5,17 evils 456:5 exactly 355:20 363:3 368:14 389:6 392:16 405:11 449:8 458:6 473:22 EXAMINED 387:3 439:3 452:3 example 367:17 385:21 404:6 418:5,8 424:4,5 470:9 471:4 474:9 examples 406:22 445:9 exchange 426:16 426:17 Excuse 388:23 executive 352:20 353:9,16 356:16 executives 426:9 426:21 exhibits 389:7 exist 378:18 expect 355:11,13 450:15 expected 361:22 479:2 expensive 426:8 experience 345:16 345:19 experienced 335:9 358:25 453:3 expert 356:9,11 451:5 explain 364:25 365:8 366:20,24 370:18 411:4 459:10,13,16 explained 343:14 343:19 364:24 423:17 explanation 350:23 367:10 explicit 403:7 expos 437:17 express 375:13 expressed 413:14 extent 448:8 449:2 external 347:18 extremely 349:22 403:2 448:23 449:16 470:10 473:8 474:4 eye 447:22 476:14 476:15,19 eyesight 387:6 e-mail 429:10,20 431:19 F facilities 394:18 facing 332:5 398:15,25 455:25 fact 335:19 337:22 350:4 379:2 400:23 420:23 456:2 474:4 factor 411:3 factors 410:2,3 factory 336:21 facts 388:9 389:11 410:16 440:6 452:22 464:7,8 464:11 466:23 466:25 467:2,3 475:24 factual 381:19 failed 417:8 failing 332:12 fair 335:5 422:8 422:11 437:17 445:11 faith 402:22 403:13 fake 331:12 337:5 337:17 faking 375:2 false 335:22,24 336:3 441:13,14 462:14 familiar 365:23 379:12 far 347:23 348:12 379:17 389:12 422:2 424:16,17
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
474:4 destroy 336:4 destroyed 335:23 destroys 336:2,5 destruction 337:3 destructive 335:5 335:10,17,21 details 400:18 413:2 414:8 423:3 determined 456:5 development 394:17,21 456:8 devote 434:11 difference 335:21 336:6 354:23 355:7 460:12 different 339:22 340:6 341:7 363:14 436:4 457:3,20,25 difficult 448:23 directed 419:4 directly 344:4 director 330:18 330:21 339:16 339:18,25 340:7 340:20,25 341:7 341:11 342:3 346:6,17 347:5 347:12 356:9 362:16,23 366:7 366:12,14,25 367:3 376:12 377:7 380:22 381:3 383:4,11 383:20 390:7 453:5,13,19 475:10 476:5 directors 345:25 347:4 356:15,16 356:19 357:13 358:17 383:18 disabilities 394:18 394:20,25 disappeared 449:9 disappointing 450:10 disavowal 375:13 disclosed 430:21 434:19 disclosure 372:13 450:10,12 discovered 428:23 discuss 337:25 351:15,16,18,19 351:23 402:2 419:25 discussed 338:20
393:21,24 395:5 395:8,17 396:17 397:2,20 398:18 399:9 401:23 402:4,8,10,11 410:2,5 412:9 412:14,25 413:2 413:9,18 414:18 418:9 421:20,21 425:6 discussing 417:23 418:5 discussion 394:7 398:21,22 399:21 400:17 413:10,19 440:22 disgraceful 357:19 358:8 disgruntled 377:22 dismissed 337:8 337:15,22 dispute 332:21 333:16,24 338:21,23,25 420:14 distinguished 362:16 422:8,12 District 411:9 divider 379:21 439:12 452:7 DIVISION 329:1 document 372:13 387:16 431:13 431:15 439:14 documents 369:3 373:18 374:19 434:18 doing 348:18 376:19 448:8 467:8 471:15 472:16 donation 398:13 dossier 437:3 double 437:14 doubt 354:9 356:3 356:4 draft 361:16 387:20,20 drafted 344:19 draw 347:8 drawn 347:10 drew 447:21,22 drill 479:7 drying 336:22 dud 331:24 duration 470:4 durations 470:6 duty 349:12 350:9
350:19,22 448:14 E E 329:23,23 379:19,19 Eardley 329:19 436:6 479:4 earlier 413:7 415:20,23,24 417:13,17 442:3 456:21 466:12 early 453:20 easily 445:17 economic 456:8 economist 345:20 345:22 edit 404:7 edited 395:12 402:23 403:20 406:7 editor 339:9,12,21 339:23 340:4,21 341:3,6,8,11 342:4 345:5 346:10,17 347:5 347:13 354:15 354:17,18 355:9 355:11,13,18,19 356:14,21 357:6 359:19,23 360:2 360:8,13 390:15 390:19 391:2 392:4,4 395:8 398:19 402:25 403:15 405:18 408:18 409:13 409:24,25,25,25 412:7 427:23 428:4,4,8,11 429:11,14 431:25 432:3 442:22 453:10 453:14,17,18 475:7,7 476:5 editorial 362:16 362:23 363:5,8 363:15,25 364:9 364:10,15,17,22 365:4,10,12,14 376:12 392:13 392:15 393:23 395:2 396:18,23 396:25 397:2 398:17 402:4 404:10 405:8 409:12 414:19 419:6,15,16 421:20 423:18 423:20 443:4,8 443:11,12,14,17
443:20 editorials 376:11 editors 358:20,20 359:17,18 360:6 362:19 365:14 393:9 400:16 404:7 423:6 443:15,18 editor-in-chief 443:24 education 389:14 effect 403:6 447:25 463:3 effectively 336:13 effort 416:7 417:9 efforts 456:8 eight 359:24 either 332:7 358:18 371:25 423:9 431:17 449:16,23 470:5 elections 470:16 electronic 364:19 Elephant 379:19 email 329:17 emerged 450:6 employed 430:13 employee 381:14 381:14 425:15 employees 332:12 332:13 employer 381:11 381:15,21 empty 447:9,11 emulating 398:5,7 enclosed 353:6 354:9 357:7 358:5 encloses 352:15 352:19 endless 375:22 enforce 364:22 engaged 385:10 385:11 English 389:17 433:24 456:24 458:2 475:21 enjoyed 363:8 enquire 357:16 ensure 447:11 468:2 entitled 363:24 364:16 430:22 436:18 450:23 Eric 388:21 Erick 422:6 error 387:12 es 354:2 389:15 essentially 455:18 456:22 establish
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
8 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 485] 465:11,22 government 389:18 390:2 399:24 445:14 455:10 469:16 470:18,19,25 473:17,17,21,25 477:18 grand 455:9 gravity 462:18 great 451:5 456:8 greater 445:2 gross 463:2 group 362:15,22 379:6,7,15 383:19 390:9 394:17,21 groups 469:13 Group's 394:22 Guardian 330:5 330:15,21 331:2 331:6,24 332:5 339:9,12,21 345:12,25 346:11,14 347:3 350:15 356:5 357:6 358:15 359:2,6,9 361:18 367:6,11 367:15 368:24 368:25 369:4 373:19,20 374:7 374:15,21,23 377:5,7 381:4,6 381:7,22 383:4 383:9 386:3,8 390:16,19,20,22 390:23,24 392:4 392:22,25 393:12 394:9 396:4 400:17 402:5 404:6 405:15,17,17 406:5,16,17,19 407:2,12,15 420:6 421:22 424:2,24 426:12 427:8,10 428:25 429:6 431:11 433:19,23,23,24 434:3 435:15 436:8,12,16 438:13 440:13 440:15 441:18 443:18 448:2,12 476:21 477:3,4 Guardian's 360:25 guess 371:6 377:22 guys 445:12 H Hai 411:8 420:7 420:21 half 394:2,4 395:10 397:17 399:3 410:13 413:15 418:12 470:6 471:7 hand 372:12,24 434:18 438:13 439:8 449:5 handed 373:13,17 376:7 430:20 handle 347:4 handled 364:17 364:22 365:11 409:9 handling 338:3,9 351:5 363:15,24 hands 377:5 Hang 414:18 happen 370:10,21 446:15 458:4 happened 335:20 358:20 367:15 368:14 370:9,11 370:13 419:13 419:14,17 426:23 466:5 happening 338:24 happens 343:19 405:23 harassment 338:7 hard 396:12 446:25 hard-hitting 475:15 harvested 336:11 hasten 456:8 head 405:16 407:23 418:9 427:7 headed 367:6,12 367:18 headline 331:12 333:15,19,21 409:2 headlines 333:25 334:2 385:20 hear 441:11 445:24 462:5 467:14 heard 419:24 425:23,24 hearing 445:13 heart 398:4 hello 407:7 423:14 help 346:14 438:8 476:18
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
447:16 469:3 476:4 477:15 farm 333:16 335:15 336:10 336:14,14,23 337:4 338:22 420:16 442:25 450:8 fast 445:15 favour 404:7 474:7 favourable 403:10 favourably 424:23 fear 446:6 features 409:25 February 352:15 357:5 358:7 390:4 392:25 394:10 404:19 404:23 418:19 434:22,23 436:17 feels 352:20 felt 348:22,23 349:9 fight 456:4 473:22 figment 423:8 file 330:11,13 339:3,5,6 347:24,24 352:14 354:25 365:18,21 368:3 368:5,7,8,10,11 368:13,19,21,23 368:24,25 369:3 369:5,10,15,22 369:24 370:4 371:3,4,5 373:20,22 374:6 374:7,7,13,15 374:15,16,20,21 374:22 376:5 378:8 379:16,16 379:18,19 382:2 387:5,11,14 388:23,25 389:8 393:3 394:10,12 394:14 398:4 400:2 408:7 428:18,18 433:6 438:19 439:7 447:7,12,12,18 452:7 455:21 filed 409:2,5 files 330:12 374:4 447:15 film 455:13,16 final 400:16 409:10 finally
476:4 finance 427:11 find 339:3 347:21 379:16 415:12 415:18 416:19 427:20,21 428:18 434:21 445:22 468:4 fine 412:5 467:20 finish 419:22 finished 479:22 Fiona 333:10,14 334:6,12 first 330:14 333:23 340:16 340:18 342:14 355:16 378:13 378:14 379:20 388:13 392:20 398:18 415:17 422:5 430:9 438:12 450:7 462:3 five 392:11 394:2 394:3,4 410:13 413:15 418:12 434:2 459:18 460:22 477:6,14 fled 338:15 Floor 329:15 flotation 426:3 folder 372:14 follow 360:7 385:25 415:8,16 415:22,23 436:7 462:21,22 467:7 followed 458:22 467:22 following 375:16 416:8 follows 435:24 follow-up 415:3,5 415:6 416:22 417:5 football 385:25 footing 458:20 fore 450:9 forecast 425:8 forecasting 425:7 425:10,11 forge 337:6,19 forgery 375:14 429:23 431:4 forgotten 448:6 form 344:13 formality 388:2 forth 398:10 456:9 Forum 362:19 forward 355:8
399:23 forwarded 342:10 352:2 forwards 344:2 found 347:17 393:3 452:9 founding 390:6 four 379:5 434:2 fourth 336:9 379:4 456:7 free 462:12 468:22 474:15 freedom 363:8 fresh 479:14 Friday 436:3 friend 351:2 436:21 440:18 440:19 fro 361:20,21 front 340:9 376:10 387:16 424:22 425:5 426:20 436:23 436:24 439:6 450:12 452:10 full 338:24 377:18 393:19 434:13 fully 375:4 Fund 398:7 fundraising 394:16 funny 475:21 further 371:19 375:8 385:2 477:23 G G 329:23 399:23 games 385:23 garden 448:13 general 338:20 477:12 generally 330:15 generously 434:9 genuine 431:2 getting 332:21 give 334:14 339:17 342:14 342:15,20 343:4 343:7,12,21 344:13 348:5,20 348:25 349:4,13 350:10,20 354:6 354:7,8 358:22 360:11 361:5,15 365:2 376:6,9 398:4,6 418:5,8 421:16 424:4 429:7 441:10 449:20 458:18 461:2,8 462:10
464:16 468:21 470:8 471:4 472:3 given 332:10 339:25 350:12 356:14 361:2,3 363:3 387:18 401:6 415:13 433:17,18 436:6 444:7 463:18,20 464:22 465:10 gives 425:17 463:8 giving 352:11 401:7 404:14 447:8 467:11 glad 375:19 glance 385:19 436:21 glanced 432:5 go 330:14 335:17 339:6 365:18 368:5,15 369:4 373:19 380:4 381:10,24 383:17 386:6,14 388:2,13 396:3 399:23 400:2 403:25 404:9 413:21 419:6,22 423:14 426:20 428:17 438:17 445:21 450:3 451:12 458:18 462:19 464:10 467:4,15,25 470:8 473:14 goes 357:15 368:15 371:9 406:18 436:22 475:17 going 364:14 369:4 371:18,24 377:6 383:6 389:10,11 396:3 397:25 398:2 407:12,15 434:18 438:15 446:6 449:4,12 450:14,19,19 451:12 463:24 464:2,16,17 475:20 gold 426:3 437:7,8 good 367:10 387:6 415:10 419:18 445:21 447:17 465:11,22 goodwill 398:8 Governance
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
8 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 486] journalist 362:17 422:9,12,13 453:3,20 476:8 journalists 458:6 Joyce 447:4 452:2 judge 359:12 373:13 judgment 448:25 479:25 judicial 451:9 July 388:9 442:22 452:21 Jumamosi 435:21 Jumanne 435:25 justice 329:1,2,6 331:4,7,9 334:16 342:24 346:4,10,13 354:21,25 355:4 355:6 360:7 371:17,24 372:3 372:6,9,11 373:12,14,16 375:19 376:3,18 383:3 384:2 385:5 386:6,10 387:11,13 394:13 404:22 410:11,12 411:4 418:15 419:19 419:24 429:23 429:25 431:4,8 431:12 432:4,10 434:8,12 436:5 436:9,11 437:24 438:3,13 443:10 444:5 446:3,5 446:10,16,22 447:3,6,14,16 447:18 449:14 450:3,21,25 451:11 460:12 460:17,20 468:13 477:5,23 479:2,6,12,16 479:19,24 justified 361:3 K Kabendera 422:4 423:6,16 424:7 424:21 425:4,14 426:11,14,18,22 426:24 428:3,24 429:10 430:23 431:5,9,20 432:7 Kamendera 388:21 keep 350:13,25 368:18 369:9 370:20 440:16 476:19 keeps 374:22 Kempinski 465:21 kept 368:7,12,23 448:17 476:14 476:15 Kikwete 366:4,22 424:7,12 Kilimanjaro 445:15 465:16 465:19,19,20 Kimambo 409:3,5 416:9,14,17 417:13 418:21 418:22,23,24 kind 347:15 365:6 375:23 462:18 463:11 468:24 475:15 477:16 Kiswahili 433:18 433:20 435:6 knew 337:8,22 338:23,24 351:5 351:7 353:6 356:21 357:18 377:13 378:19 420:25 421:5,9 461:21 know 335:19,21 336:17,24 337:24 347:20 349:7 351:3,11 354:5 355:21,22 355:23 356:13 356:19 361:11 364:13 366:8,14 367:4 370:13 371:9,24 373:23 373:24 374:4,8 374:9,14 375:12 375:17 376:21 376:22,23,24 377:2,3,6,8,16 377:18 378:19 379:2,13 381:25 387:25 396:2 403:16,23,25 406:8 407:23 410:17,23,24 411:4 412:7 415:24 416:3,25 420:22 421:12 421:13,15,17 422:3,13,17,18 422:19,20,23,23 422:24 423:3 424:10,14,15,16 424:17 425:19 425:20 427:9,11
helpful 375:9 helps 393:2 hereunder 380:18 381:13 Hermitage 329:12 339:8,11 345:4 358:6 360:21 371:2 379:3 449:11,20 Hermitage's 447:23 HIGH 329:1 higher 450:18 highly 335:2 342:13,18 343:9 353:25 401:20 403:10 422:21 459:9,12,17,25 462:12 466:17 history 420:14 449:4 453:20 475:12 hitch 438:7 hold 341:13 428:25 holdings 352:18 352:21,23 353:9 353:14,16,18,20 354:3,6,11,13 354:22 355:6 378:16,21 hole 337:2 honest 366:16 473:3 hope 375:2 383:17 427:4 446:9 449:10 hopefully 420:3 horrendous 456:9 Hotel 465:17,19 465:19,20 hour 470:6 471:7 House 329:15 HQ10D04585 329:1 HR 429:4 huge 455:25 human 396:14 hundreds 392:13 395:14 Hyatt 465:21 I idea 414:2,4,5 434:3 450:5 identify 346:4 379:20 ignorant 333:6 ignored 450:13 imagination 423:8 imagine 372:6
implications 342:9 importance 449:4 important 349:21 349:22 362:20 399:8,10,14 405:10 447:18 impossible 442:19 impression 343:12 343:21 344:13 inaudible 393:20 410:8 423:7 430:10 434:16 440:23 inception 453:18 incident 426:23 471:12 include 380:10 including 418:2 422:18 inclusion 396:17 inconceivable 467:5 471:13 increased 448:12 independence 365:4,5,14 indicated 375:21 indicates 359:3 individual 466:16 466:21 470:9 471:4 individuals 346:4 466:18 469:19 470:22,23 471:10 473:21 474:6 475:24 industrialist 476:22 industry 436:14 infinitely 445:2 influential 422:21 information 389:20,22 402:18 403:12 403:19 404:2 405:21 407:17 423:2 463:8,9,9 464:15 472:13 informative 393:11 informed 424:14 info@martenw... 329:17 Initially 392:11 injure 460:8 injurious 460:6 461:15 ink 372:18,21 380:2 innocent 411:20 inside
452:7 insisted 417:4,13 418:23 insisting 417:14 institutions 469:17 instruct 450:15 instructed 329:19 329:20 368:2 instructing 376:6 instructions 344:23 370:5,7 375:11 integral 338:6 integrity 377:15 377:17,19 intend 362:11 371:7 intention 375:14 413:14 interest 341:24 343:5 352:24 353:20 377:10 378:20 396:15 448:14 interested 385:21 385:23 389:13 interests 365:6 interfere 357:21 358:13 365:13 365:16,17 interfered 366:10 interference 365:5 internal 367:8,11 367:17,18 368:16 interpreter 438:8 438:9 479:3 interrupting 464:12 intervention 376:12 415:20 introduce 449:6 introduced 451:2 inventing 477:10 investigate 347:17 360:17 450:16 458:19 investor 331:13 332:6,10 333:9 334:6,11,12 411:12 invited 466:8 involve 356:16 357:14 359:10 475:24 involved 349:8 350:12,21 358:17 375:18
392:17 420:11 421:10 442:11 442:21 456:3 462:5 involvement 442:24 involving 346:15 IPP 342:10 344:20 352:18 352:20,23 353:9 353:14,16,16,18 353:19,20 354:6 354:11,13,14 363:5 377:8 378:16,22 379:6 379:7 383:19 390:9 404:18 430:11,12 Islamic 396:9 issue 343:25 349:8 405:7 417:24 419:5,15 442:25 477:16 issued 347:11 455:19,23 458:2 issues 405:5 423:22 475:18 475:24 item 393:10 items 444:19 475:15 ITV 453:6,25 457:23 475:15 475:16 476:21 477:2,3 i.e 460:18 J JAMES 329:20 January 330:6 332:10 333:9 390:15,19,20,24 392:3 427:23,24 428:5 Jesse 438:12 439:2,15 JOAN 452:2 job 363:3,5 364:7 364:10 427:8 447:13 459:20 459:23 join 358:21 joined 379:8 389:17 390:6 406:5 440:24 jolly 354:18 JONATHAN 329:20 journalism 390:2 410:17 453:20 475:13
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PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 487] 466:16 468:16 477:25 479:20 Lordship 362:4 362:13 365:8 366:20 371:20 378:5,5,20 389:14 399:20 434:20 436:8,19 436:24 437:22 437:25 446:2,9 447:12,21 448:3 448:4,5,19 449:24 450:6 Lordship's 393:2 398:2 434:19 447:15 448:25 449:6 loss 431:14 lost 436:7 lot 375:18 376:17 407:17 444:9 448:22 453:12 love 396:8,10 low 409:11 lower 337:2 Luhanga 345:16 345:24 346:2,14 356:10 438:7 479:3,20 lunch 420:9 lying 376:18 442:20,21 M machetes 411:8 411:21 madness 367:3 Maffisadi 469:9 magazine 422:21 magazines 422:18 making 366:13 375:3 423:9 438:17 461:18 462:18,25 465:8 470:10 477:10 Malasusa 479:17 man 366:16,18 management 380:23 manager 398:8 427:24 449:7 managing 339:9 339:12,18,21,23 339:25 340:4,7 340:20,21,25 341:3,6,7,8,11 341:11 342:3,4 345:5 346:6,10 346:17,17 347:4 347:5,12,13 354:15,17,18 355:9,11,13,18 355:19 356:14 356:21 357:6 358:20 359:17 359:19,23 360:2 360:5,8,13 366:7,12,14,25 367:3 376:12 377:7 390:15,19 391:2 392:4 402:24 403:15 405:18 409:24 412:7 428:4,4,8 428:11 429:11 429:14 431:25 432:3 442:22 443:15,18 453:5 453:10,13,13,17 453:18,19 475:7 475:7,10 476:5 476:5 manner 360:4 400:15 409:9 Mara 437:4,5,7 437:15 March 339:19 351:25 352:17 378:14 396:5 429:10 448:18 marginal 380:8 marked 347:23 447:11 marketing 345:23 467:23,25 469:10 Marten 329:15 material 362:9 402:20,23 406:15 445:21 450:13,19 475:20 matter 335:19 342:9 343:13,20 343:22 344:12 347:4,10,11,17 348:13 350:21 355:9,14 358:24 377:17 382:6 396:24 415:15 421:10,23 467:12 479:25 matters 335:23,24 338:14 343:15 345:17 356:17 364:9 365:6 376:12 443:11 443:14,17 451:5 Mauggo 346:11 386:13,14 387:1 387:2,4,14,18
427:12,13,15,17 427:19 428:16 429:9 430:22,24 440:11,12 441:4 441:6 443:14 444:22,23 449:14,18,24 451:5 457:11 458:4,23,24 462:11 473:24 knowledge 381:17 381:19 390:14 420:18 476:7 known 332:22 336:25 362:16 377:4 421:23 knows 469:4 Kwayu 438:12,18 439:2,4,5,15 440:10 KWAYU-PRICE 442:1 443:1 444:1 445:1 KWAYU-RAM... 440:1 441:1 L lack 455:9 456:11 457:7,14,19 458:12 lady 377:15 440:11 Lane 329:16 language 389:17 433:17,19 lapse 409:16 410:20 large 354:2 394:20 lasted 390:4 late 449:3 458:8 law 380:10 382:6 462:11 lawsuit 345:6,9 347:3 359:12 360:11,12 461:19 lawyer 335:9 347:18 350:22 358:25 360:9 378:4 379:15 381:19 430:11 lawyers 374:18 375:7 430:8,9 445:20 458:17 460:13 462:6 475:21 lay 460:18 laying 336:23 lead 375:13 leaders 422:25,25
leaf 398:9 League 386:2,7 learn 333:2 learned 416:9,14 429:4 436:21 leave 362:13 389:11 420:2 left 336:20 354:22 355:6 389:15 429:2 439:7 440:13,15 441:18 legal 333:9 334:6 334:12 338:14 339:15,23,24 340:3,10,24 342:10,13,14,15 342:20 343:2,4 343:7,15,16,19 343:25 344:2,3 344:11,14,20 345:16 347:5,10 348:3,5,7,8,9,12 348:13,14,15,16 348:21,22,23,25 349:3,4,10,13 350:10,20 351:9 352:3,8 353:25 357:2 358:2,21 358:24 359:4,8 359:14 412:5,8 462:2,8 legible 413:13 legislation 380:17 381:12 letter 339:19,20 341:4,5,5 342:12 346:20 346:25 348:9 349:7 351:13,23 351:25 352:2,9 352:13,15,17 353:2,11,17,19 354:17,20,21 355:9,19 356:21 356:23 357:2,7 357:18,23 358:2 358:3,5,5,7,19 358:22 359:3,7 359:16,18,25 360:8,10 361:8 362:22 363:13 367:5,16 368:15 369:10,13,16,25 370:16,20,24 371:10,11,13,16 372:15,25 374:12,17,21,22 375:3,9 376:20 377:21 378:6,7
378:14 379:2,10 381:24 382:2 450:7 472:18 letters 339:7,11 345:3,4 347:13 347:23 348:17 355:24 356:13 356:19 357:16 362:7 371:2,21 390:25 let's 464:18 liability 381:11 liable 380:25 382:7 442:4 libel 460:13 Libelous 460:19 lie 377:20 427:5 lies 426:25 464:23 life 411:13 light 436:17 likewise 383:15 Lima 337:3 Limited 367:6,11 377:6,8 378:16 378:22 381:4 line 342:8,12 343:11,24 355:2 LinkedIn 428:10 Lipumba 399:24 400:9,19,24 401:13,16,21 402:16 403:2,4 403:17,21 Lipumba's 402:9 list 446:19 477:11 477:13,14 listed 332:6 479:25 listen 477:20 listening 459:14 459:16 Literature 389:17 litigation 346:15 little 359:13 362:14 371:12 376:5 389:14 431:14 434:21 450:2 456:21 479:20 live 475:16,17 479:4 living 441:5 loan 429:2 local 411:8 437:18 London 329:3,16 441:5 long 359:16 404:25 406:6 414:25 448:21 450:12 451:7
464:7,9 465:7 466:20 475:12 476:8 longer 415:2 look 330:7,23 331:24 332:5 333:22 334:16 337:11,14 339:19 340:3 341:3 342:6,7 346:18 351:24 352:16 356:22 356:23,23 357:23 358:4 360:22 363:13 367:5,17 372:21 373:12 378:6 385:20 392:20 394:11 396:4 398:3 404:13 408:3,7,24 411:7 418:16 429:13,25 436:18,23,24,24 438:14 439:21 452:7,15 455:3 455:21 457:11 460:11 462:17 looked 333:15 354:14 381:24 401:17 409:4 420:5,9 458:7 looking 331:6,10 370:9 372:13 390:25 396:7 411:13 417:9 448:7 looks 337:2 Lord 331:2 339:24 340:24 341:10,21 342:23 347:25 348:7 349:9 353:17 354:24 355:5 358:15 360:17 366:24 372:5,24 373:13 383:5,8,14,16 385:15 386:11 386:13 387:12 394:14 414:5 418:13 419:14 419:18 430:21 432:8,12 434:18 438:19 440:12 440:17,19 441:12,17,21 442:13,15,23 443:2,14 444:8 446:2 447:4
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PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 488] 367:3 372:24 375:12 392:23 404:18 419:18 432:4 Monday 449:20 money 394:21 472:8 month 356:22 months 332:12 437:15 morning 385:8 425:5 479:21 480:3 Moshi 332:18 334:13 396:10 411:23 414:8 420:16 motion 360:20 motivated 473:12 473:13,18 move 398:3 moved 413:21 453:23 Mshana 346:8 366:7,12,16 367:16,24 368:6 368:15 369:14 372:15 373:2,7 374:12,22 428:3 Mshana's 368:5 Muchoki 413:22 414:6,21 416:18 416:19 417:4,12 417:15,17,18,19 418:20,22,24 419:4,12 479:16 murder 336:2 murderer 336:4 murderous 411:8 420:6 murderously 411:20 M-S-H-A-N-A 346:9 N N 329:23 name 354:3 355:2 387:16,18,21 400:14,24 422:5 439:4,14 452:10 466:25 named 460:2,22 466:18 470:11 471:9 names 344:21 401:6,8 464:10 465:14 475:25 477:14 National 393:4 398:7 natural 418:14 nature 451:3 near 420:16 necessarily 397:22 449:12 necessary 449:23 463:9 479:6,13 need 330:13 333:22 348:3,6 348:6,8,10,11 348:15,19 378:3 378:6 380:4 438:8,11 439:8 472:8 needed 346:17 347:14 348:22 348:23 349:10 351:3 362:5 needs 351:9 371:20 476:14 needy 398:6,15,25 399:13 negative 405:22 406:7 423:23,25 424:11 negatives 376:17 neglected 335:15 neither 347:3 405:3 never 351:22 365:13 377:17 405:24 423:13 425:16 426:22 428:7,9 430:2 432:2 442:9 448:24 450:17 467:9 473:3 nevertheless 462:14 news 390:6,9 398:19 406:19 407:2,3,10 409:24 423:14 423:15 426:15 444:19 newscast 425:12 newspaper 333:7 353:6 358:16 359:14 360:5,24 361:9,12 364:23 379:15 381:6,7 383:9,18,19 399:15 403:11 404:3 421:11 434:10 435:14 437:17 443:4,7 445:16 newspapers 330:16,17,20 352:18 353:5
388:1,16 389:1 389:11 390:1 391:1 392:1 393:1 394:1,11 395:1 396:1 397:1,18 398:1 399:1 400:1 401:1 402:1 403:1,9 404:1,5 404:16 405:1,2 406:1 407:1 408:1,9 409:1 410:1,13 411:1 412:1 413:1 414:1 415:1 416:1 417:1 418:1 419:1,7 419:24 420:1,5 421:1 422:1 423:1 424:1 425:1 426:1 427:1 428:1 429:1,13 430:1 431:1 432:1 433:1,3 434:1 435:1 436:1 437:1,22,25 438:1 mean 340:8 343:24 350:2 364:2 387:11 410:24 411:5 426:22 431:2 441:18 460:18 470:25 477:18 meaning 379:7 means 343:25 464:10 meant 350:8 mechanism 347:16 355:14 360:20 media 345:19 360:25 364:18 364:19 365:2 379:6,7 393:16 404:18 406:18 473:9 479:7 meeting 341:13 393:21,23 395:2 395:3,9,17 396:20,22,23 397:2,10,11,16 397:19,20 398:19,20 399:21 401:23 401:24 402:2,4 402:10 408:19 409:12,19,22 410:2 412:9,25
413:3,4 414:19 419:6,15,16 421:19,20 423:16 meetings 392:13 392:15 396:18 396:25 397:9 398:17,23 404:10 425:5 member 393:5 Members 334:5 memo 367:8,11 memorandum 367:18,18 memory 395:17 405:16 408:15 408:17 409:16 410:18,20 Mengi 329:9 330:23,25 331:15 335:2,7 338:2,10,17 339:13,20,21,23 340:17,18 341:5 341:23 344:10 345:5 346:24 347:24 348:3,15 348:16 349:7,9 350:10,16,20 351:25 352:2,3 352:25 357:2 358:2,16,21 359:20,22 360:3 360:6 362:5,9 362:15 363:15 363:20,22 364:2 364:12,16 365:9 371:16 376:10 376:19 377:7,10 378:19,22 379:7 379:8,8,10 381:2,20 382:3 382:6 393:5,6 394:16,19,22 395:14 396:8,9 396:13 398:5 399:15,25 400:5 400:11,14,20,22 400:24 401:4,18 402:9,17,21 403:3,11,22 404:15,22,23,25 405:19 406:3,11 406:15 407:12 407:19 420:8,11 420:15,21,25 421:6,8,13,24 423:7 424:22 425:17 426:4,19 426:25 427:6
429:7 441:8,15 444:6,9 445:5 445:17,23 455:9 455:14,16,18,23 456:22 457:16 457:22,25 458:5 458:11 463:12 463:15,19,20,24 464:5,20,21,22 465:13 466:5,12 466:13 467:16 471:14 473:8,14 473:16,23 474:4 474:8,10 476:16 476:20 477:9,16 Mengis 421:17 Mengi's 347:8 374:18 375:7 398:4,8,10 406:14,23 420:25 421:14 421:24 423:11 445:2,20 453:6 457:13 466:3 471:16,20 472:9 mention 338:19 419:11,15 447:19 448:4,6 464:10 466:24 467:4 mentioned 333:17 343:14 346:6,10 399:25 400:5 421:19 434:13 461:24 464:14 466:21 475:25 477:12,13 mentioning 449:25 450:3 mentions 420:23 merit 360:18,19 message 396:15 451:13 Mhaville 447:4 452:2,6 453:1 454:1 455:1,4 456:1 457:1 458:1 459:1 460:1 461:1 462:1 463:1 464:1 465:1,5 466:1 467:1 468:1 469:1 470:1 471:1 472:1 473:1 474:1,11 475:1 475:4 476:1 477:1,15 478:1 microphone 440:4 middle 334:9
336:11 342:7 450:14 451:3 452:10 Middleton 330:24 332:11,22 333:24 334:11 335:6,10,16 336:23 337:5 338:7 339:8,12 345:4 351:25 352:17 354:12 359:22 371:2 379:2 408:4 410:21 411:12 411:15,25 415:13,25 416:4 416:15 417:2 418:21,25 419:2 419:3,3 420:15 479:22 Middletons 341:23 344:10 349:14 420:8 Middleton's 336:9 336:18 338:15 Mikengo 387:18 388:16 Millie 420:25 million 332:11 412:22 421:7 mind 380:6 410:9 419:20 433:12 446:18 449:19 458:18 mine 437:7,7,8 440:19 mining 423:23,25 436:13,19 437:16,19 minister 465:10 465:12,22 466:4 466:7,10,11 467:11 473:8 ministries 469:12 Ministry 389:20 minute 387:25 480:2 minutes 418:13 447:19 464:19 464:25 466:10 470:3 mislead 344:6,6 misleading 342:13 342:18 343:9 mistake 354:13 355:4 378:13 mob 410:11 modest 375:24 moment 339:24 340:24 349:9
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LONDON, WC2A 1HP
361:5,23 362:8 364:17 365:10 365:14 377:10 379:5,12,13,23 380:14 382:3 385:6,12 401:10 401:20 403:24 425:18 427:10 434:14 443:5,19 445:21 453:21 477:19 newsworthiness 410:5,7 newsworthy 394:24 396:14 398:14 410:10 412:13 444:18 444:20 445:4 468:5,9 477:7,8 Ngoya 337:20 Nguma 330:2,4 331:10 335:8 337:9 339:2 343:4 344:12 348:15 350:22 352:22 353:4 354:22 355:24 370:16 372:7,12 373:15 375:3,14 377:24 378:1,4 379:1,17 380:1 380:6,11 381:1 382:1 383:1,3 384:1,2 385:1 386:1,5,10 Nguma's 430:14 NGUMA-PRICE 331:1 332:1 333:1 334:1 335:1 336:1 337:1 338:1 339:1 340:1 341:1 342:1 343:1 344:1 345:1 346:1 347:1 348:1 349:1 350:1 351:1 352:1 353:1 354:1 355:1 356:1 357:1 358:1 359:1 360:1 361:1 362:1 363:1 364:1 365:1 366:1 367:1 368:1 369:1 370:1 371:1 372:1 373:1 374:1 375:1 376:1
377:1 nice 429:6 NICOL 371:16 nine 437:15 Nipashe 330:5,15 331:4,5,9,11 332:10 333:9 381:8 383:15 405:17 442:22 444:7 448:2,11 norm 383:18 normal 398:22 415:15,17,22 467:23 468:18 472:22,23 normally 360:17 370:25 462:19 462:25 468:17 469:5 North 437:3,5,7 437:15 note 369:7,21 371:3,4 380:8 393:2 Notes 329:15 noting 357:12 November 329:4 330:6 338:12 NSFF 398:11,13 number 374:3 388:25 439:20 448:15 numbers 388:3 O O 329:23 oath 458:23 465:6 obedience 434:19 obliged 350:2,17 354:20 observations 394:19 396:11 398:12 401:16 466:3,5 obviously 360:19 occasion 339:22 339:22 340:6,6 340:7,8 407:11 423:24 426:2,5 442:10 465:7 occasionally 407:4,6 occasions 340:12 340:14 448:15 occupy 374:2 October 370:17 odd 383:17 offence 380:12,17 380:22,24 381:12,15 Offences 380:8,9
380:16 office 368:8,10,10 368:24 373:19 officer 344:2 380:22 381:3 389:22 officers 344:20 offices 374:23 official 366:3,21 367:2 officials 400:14,25 445:14 offset 468:18 Oh 356:18 447:19 470:21 Okay 330:8 334:3 336:8 369:3 374:24 375:6 396:3 397:25 399:18 400:7 409:19 410:21 429:22 445:7 457:9 old 446:22 once 359:23 427:9 448:15,16,17 ones 330:20 403:7 413:7 open 378:7 439:11 opening 447:21 448:16 469:7 operating 443:25 444:5 operations 357:22 opinion 445:3 opportunity 365:9 415:13 461:2 463:20 464:22 466:9 467:14 opposition 470:13 477:12 oratory 448:5 order 355:16 434:19 447:15 orders 425:15 ordinary 400:15 409:9 organisation 354:2 organised 394:17 original 369:13 370:7,11,12,15 370:20,23 371:8 372:12 376:4 originals 370:22 orphanage 398:12 ought 398:9 outlets 393:17 473:9 outlined 345:5,8
359:14 outlines 359:7 outrageous 462:12 outside 365:5 outskirts 396:10 outstanding 429:2 oversee 363:5 364:10 443:4,8 443:11,20 owes 427:10 owned 334:12 owner 350:14 365:12 443:10 477:2,2 ownership 420:15 owns 399:15 403:11 o'clock 397:13 419:19 450:4 451:11,13 P P 329:23 page 330:15,23 331:2,4,5,8,9,10 331:25 332:5,6 332:10,18,20 333:9 334:9 335:14 336:10 336:11 337:12 337:14 352:14 352:16 354:21 354:24,25 355:4 356:23,24 357:24 358:5 360:22 365:19 365:21 367:5,17 376:11 378:8,9 378:10,14,25 379:19,20 382:2 388:3,4,23,24 388:24 392:24 394:12,14 396:5 398:3 400:4 404:14,14 408:8 408:24 409:2,10 409:11 412:22 413:20 418:18 424:22 425:5 426:20 428:17 428:18 433:10 436:23,25 437:10,14 439:20 452:10 452:11,16 455:22 pages 375:24 386:8,9 393:3 393:14 396:7 433:23 434:2,3
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
8 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 490] 472:12,23 473:6 473:6,19 programmes 469:5,6,9,14,16 470:7 471:18 475:20,22 476:2 477:19 programming 468:2 prominence 448:11 450:21 prominent 334:13 405:11 444:12 444:15,20,24 465:8 466:16 476:16 477:5 promise 459:23 pronounce 439:4 proper 359:25 462:3 properly 347:14 415:9,18 459:4 property 337:7,20 propose 479:22 proposing 449:5 proprietor 358:16 360:5 364:23 404:8 421:11 443:3,7,9,11,20 443:23 467:6 prospect 449:20 prove 463:9 provenance 430:22 provide 431:8 445:9 448:19 provided 375:8 407:11 423:17 445:21 447:9 457:6,12 459:3 463:19 473:15 provides 406:14 provisional 446:18 PST 390:6,9 409:2 public 464:10 466:24 467:4,14 469:17 476:7,14 476:15,19 publication 389:22 393:23 406:15,17,23 publications 359:18 360:6 363:6 443:17 450:8 publicly 477:16 publish 361:6,13 376:10 377:11 407:13,16 414:19 415:17 416:4 424:7 426:2 published 330:5 330:20 333:7 334:24 352:18 361:10,23,24 379:5 393:19 406:7 408:17 412:6 414:14,20 414:25 415:2,8 416:23,25 417:8 417:12,16,18,19 419:12 435:9,9 436:2,13 publisher 381:6 publishing 362:9 426:12 punished 381:16 pupils 394:18 purpose 375:15 473:10 purposes 474:11 put 339:3 344:4 350:18 360:20 363:15 368:2,7 368:23 370:25 371:3,4,18,18 371:22,25 374:18 379:16 381:25 403:9 424:6 427:16 428:13,15,25 431:5 432:4 433:14 434:6 436:5,17 439:10 447:6 464:16 468:19 479:22 puts 368:21 putting 350:11 354:3 puzzling 468:4 p.m 397:14 398:20 409:12 413:4,8 Q QC 329:19,20 Quality 329:15,16 QUEEN'S 329:1 question 335:8 341:21 342:22 345:24 349:4 350:18 369:20 378:5 380:11 385:3 390:18 391:5,5 402:24 425:4 459:17,21 460:21 477:15 questions 372:6 380:6 382:10
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
349:12 350:9,19 plainly 349:5 351:3 352:11 449:2 plaint 379:9 plaintiff 360:12 plantation 332:19 332:21 plastic 372:14 played 429:21 please 350:23 361:15 368:18 369:9 370:20 378:9,10,25 379:19 386:14 387:10 388:2 391:4 433:6,9 434:21 437:10 437:14 439:7,12 439:16,19,22 452:7,15 454:4 pleased 334:6 plight 394:25 point 438:18 447:8 448:25 451:2 479:9 policy 360:25 364:19 365:2,12 366:9,11 367:2 423:18,20 424:11,11,16 443:25 444:4,5 political 422:25 455:10 456:11 457:7,14,19 458:12 470:14 politically 473:12 473:13,18 politicians 365:6 position 356:4 359:6 377:22 449:15,25 positive 396:15 406:7,9 possibility 345:6 possible 346:15 359:3,8 375:16 404:6 442:7 449:22 possibly 344:10 395:16 404:20 post 453:8 postal 368:16 posts 453:12 potential 346:15 power 365:2,4 practice 342:8 373:3 praises 405:3 praising 404:25 pre
451:7 precise 414:4 448:20 precisely 370:6 405:13 413:24 414:13 439:4 449:19 prefer 387:5 preferential 444:7 preliminary 380:11 Premier 386:2,7 preparation 392:17 preparations 419:5 prepared 344:14 430:4,7 463:8 464:9 presence 441:8 present 401:18 427:9 presented 401:4 445:16 presenting 337:16 presently 453:5 president 366:4 366:22 404:20 424:7,12 456:4 456:7,8 474:5,7 press 406:14,14 406:17,23,24 423:11 455:8,13 455:15,18,19,23 456:13,15,22,23 456:24 457:2,4 457:12,22,25 458:5,22 459:7 461:3,6,23,25 463:7,11,13,18 464:19 465:8,24 465:25 466:8,9 466:17 467:11 467:18 468:7 471:16,20 472:9 pressing 450:11 prestigious 422:14 pretty 375:24 442:15,16,17 447:18 preview 450:22 previous 419:25 426:19 previously 477:11 Price 329:20 330:3 331:7,8 331:10 334:18 343:3 346:9,13 346:14 360:21
371:17,19 372:2 372:5,8,11,12 373:13,15,17,18 376:3,4,21 377:24 382:10 389:12 392:2,3 393:1 394:1,13 394:14,16 395:1 396:1 397:1 398:1 399:1 400:1 401:1 402:1 403:1 404:1,23 405:1 406:1 407:1 408:1 409:1 410:1 411:1,4,6 412:1 413:1 414:1 415:1 416:1 417:1 418:1,16 419:1 419:18,23 420:1 420:5 421:1 422:1 423:1 424:1 425:1 426:1 427:1 428:1 429:1 430:1,3,23 431:1,2,7,17,19 432:1 433:1 434:1,6,15 435:1 436:1 437:1 438:1,11 438:13 440:10 441:7 442:2 443:13 444:6 446:7,8,13 447:11,17 449:11,15 450:5 454:4 455:2 456:1 457:1 458:1 459:1 460:1,12,16,19 460:22 461:1 462:1 463:1 464:1 465:1 466:1 467:1 468:1 469:1,15 470:1 471:1 472:1 473:1 474:1,16 479:14 479:20 Price's 433:12 448:9 primary 334:5 394:19 principal 381:11 381:15,21 principles 410:17 print 363:5 453:20 printed
388:3 433:19 434:3 435:19 priority 409:11 private 466:16 469:19 470:9,15 470:15 471:4 privilege 344:12 352:3 448:14 probably 338:14 338:19 342:21 342:24 351:20 370:9 372:8 374:16 395:14 419:24 448:6 problem 346:15 348:16 404:4 476:9 problems 338:20 455:25 procedure 466:7 466:14 467:22 467:23 468:14 proceeded 380:25 381:15 proceeding 458:20 proceedings 452:13 proceeds 424:24 process 415:15,17 415:22 produced 431:18 469:16 producing 437:5 production 455:15 Professor 399:23 400:9,19,24 401:13,16,21 402:9,16 403:2 403:4,17,21 profile 428:10 448:11 450:18 profoundly 450:10 programme 455:13 456:12 456:14,15 457:17,21 458:5 458:7,11,19,21 459:3,6 461:18 461:22,23 462:15,18,24,25 464:5,13 467:24 468:5,15,18,19 468:20,24,25 469:2,3,7,11 470:12 471:2,4 471:6 472:4,6
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
8 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 491] 378:21 repeat 349:4 359:10 repeated 355:4 rephrase 460:21 replied 353:13,19 354:17 357:17 357:18 361:8,21 449:2 reply 348:6 352:8 352:25 353:12 354:4,12,19,20 355:11,13,16,19 355:23 356:14 357:8 358:9 359:15,24 360:11,19,22,23 361:2,4,5,8,9,10 361:12,15,17,22 361:24 362:7 448:13 449:17 450:22 replying 358:21 359:3,7 463:15 report 364:12,14 364:15 401:20 402:18 403:14 405:3,4 reported 337:11 363:20,22 402:20,25 403:10,16,24 404:3 406:20 418:25 434:13 466:3 reporter 411:22 413:11 414:8 416:6,9 reporters 402:11 402:12,20,22,25 403:12,13,16 404:2,6 reporting 364:8 364:13 405:8 424:23 reports 411:11 reprimand 366:10 367:24 reprimanded 366:9 reproduced 393:12,16 reputable 354:2 reputation 335:5 335:10,18,22,23 336:2,4,5,9,18 460:6 461:16 reputations 460:8 request 375:20 426:19 428:25 431:9 447:7 468:3,20 requested 472:3 472:17 requesting 467:19 requests 375:22 406:23 450:13 require 343:15 required 423:6 requires 360:25 researched 415:9 415:19 residences 426:8 resident 411:8 420:7,21 resignation 363:13 371:16 376:9 377:21 resigned 363:10 resisting 375:17 resolve 456:4 resolving 347:16 respect 338:11,12 338:18 347:11 396:8,10 respectful 396:11 respects 398:8 respond 348:6,9 348:11,17 349:3 355:8 360:9 379:10 450:10 responding 466:11 response 347:14 378:23 449:22 450:5 restructuring 448:22 result 461:19 resume 419:19 return 390:23 392:3 returned 390:24 revenue 468:16 re-broadcast 472:13 473:5 re-examination 424:6 433:2 RE-EXAMINED 378:2 385:2 475:2 RICHARD 329:19 rid 330:12,14 right 330:11 331:12 333:15 333:25 334:9 336:6,7 339:4,6 341:10,25 342:2 343:13 344:4,15
383:2 389:10 437:23 438:2 440:10 446:2 454:3,4 477:23 quickly 436:23 446:19 quite 330:13 353:6 360:2 362:6,8 363:24 364:16 371:24 374:25 375:17 390:23 394:20 395:15 402:16 403:21 406:14 406:19 411:20 428:3 429:5 430:12 433:25 439:19 442:7 444:9 445:16 447:3 452:16 453:3 457:18 466:15 467:5 quoted 400:25 R R 329:23 racist 403:3,4,5 raise 449:23 raised 348:17 394:24 398:15 398:24 419:5,16 450:18 raising 399:13 425:4 Rampton 329:19 331:2,5 341:22 371:22 373:16 375:10,19 376:2 378:2 379:1 380:1 381:1 382:1 385:2,3,5 385:6 386:1,5 386:13 387:3,4 387:11,12,14 388:1 389:1 390:1 391:1,4 419:20 430:2,20 430:24 431:3,14 431:18 433:2 434:10,13,16 436:6,10,12 437:21,25 438:4 438:6,19 439:3 446:2,6,8,10,12 446:16,21,22,25 447:4,15,19 449:19 450:17 450:24 451:6,9 451:15 452:3 453:1 454:1,3 455:13 458:20
475:2,3 476:1 477:1,9,22 478:1 479:3,11 479:14,17 ran 402:23 rang 341:19 442:3 raping 463:2 read 330:15 331:18,19,20 332:2,7,15,19 332:23 333:13 333:14,17,25 334:3,7,13,14 334:15,20,22,24 365:23 380:4,5 382:4 385:11,12 385:13,17,17 393:10 422:20 422:24 431:15 432:5 435:6 438:15 455:18 456:13 457:8 479:4 reader 330:16 readers 393:10 422:21 477:19 reading 380:6 411:14,25 479:9 reads 358:3,7 379:6 ready 451:12 real 350:24,25 realised 421:24 really 335:20 366:8 370:10,11 389:10 419:9 447:7 475:18 reason 338:23 344:8 350:24,25 351:9 352:25 353:11 356:3,4 358:9 359:21 367:13,20,21 375:12,17,21 376:9,13,16,18 376:19 377:20 426:24 427:5,7 428:24 429:6 443:3,7,13,23 444:23 448:18 448:21 461:4 465:6 477:9 reasonable 359:14 360:21,23 361:2 361:3,7,12,15 reasonably 375:20 reasons 476:23 recall 351:19 401:20 418:19
440:21 445:5,8 445:10,15 450:6 RECALLED 330:2 received 347:13 357:8 recognise 334:11 recollection 405:23 406:20 record 380:4 479:5 recorded 456:16 457:4 recording 418:24 440:4 records 337:16 refer 358:3,5 392:21,24 394:9 403:8 412:21 455:8 reference 378:15 428:25 431:8 432:5,6,9,10 referred 330:6 346:5 353:8 403:6 433:5 referring 350:4 352:17 447:25 refers 343:18 353:18 379:3 refresh 458:18 refusal 376:10 refused 361:5 418:25 419:4 refusing 376:11 regard 341:4 346:20,25 regarding 440:23 440:25 442:9 445:11 regardless 468:15 regards 465:16 Reginald 329:9 339:21,23 340:17,18 348:3 348:15,16 349:7 349:9 352:3 358:16 359:20 363:15 377:7 404:15 421:14 421:24 444:9 453:6 Reginald's 347:8 regulatory 472:11 472:25 relating 369:4 373:19 424:22 relation 379:9 421:10 relationship 350:2
350:4 relatively 409:11 release 406:17 455:19,23 456:13,23,24 457:2,12,25 458:22 releases 406:15,24 relevance 352:22 relevant 353:10 472:10 reliable 423:2 remain 391:4 448:20 454:4 remainder 335:15 remained 389:25 remarks 401:21 402:9 remember 330:9 351:21,22 369:15 376:8 381:25 393:21 393:25 394:6 395:3,5,7,18,20 395:23,24 396:2 396:10 397:15 397:16,17,19,20 397:22,24 398:21 399:4,5 399:7,8,9,21,22 400:8,17,18,19 402:8 405:20,25 406:10,22,25 407:11,22 408:2 408:9,10,12,22 408:23 409:3,5 409:7,13,18,19 410:15,16,20 412:19,23,25 413:2,8,13,15 413:22,25 414:13 418:9,10 418:11 419:7 420:9 422:4 423:16 425:4,7 425:14 426:2,5 426:8,11,14 429:12 431:10 431:21,22 432:8 432:12,14 433:14 434:17 436:20 440:15 441:15 442:5,6 442:12,19 444:17 447:21 448:3 458:15,16 458:17 remembered 409:15,17 remind 334:16 removed
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
8 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 492] 466:3,6 shillings 412:22 421:7 short 372:10 420:4 451:16 Shortly 416:24 show 363:12 423:6 448:3 457:9 475:19 showed 410:18 shown 406:5 431:12 shows 475:16 shut 446:21 side 432:4 434:20 449:21 451:7 461:2,9 462:9 462:10 466:21 sign 372:25 373:3 signature 372:18 372:19 388:4 389:3 439:23 440:2,5 452:19 457:13 signed 370:2 372:17 373:6,10 473:16 significance 371:7 371:9 Silverdale 333:16 333:19,21,24 334:2 338:22 349:8 442:25 450:8 simply 343:12,22 343:25 344:9 351:10 366:23 370:25 411:13 465:4 sing 405:3 sir 452:14,18,20 452:24 453:2,4 453:7,9,11,22 453:24 454:2 455:20,24 456:15,20 457:4 457:8,16,21 458:3,13,23 459:2,5,8,16,20 459:24 460:3,9 460:23 461:13 461:21 462:10 462:22,24 463:7 464:2,9,17,24 466:2,5 467:8 468:6 469:14,18 469:22 471:15 471:21 472:10 472:14,16,22 473:11,24 474:3 474:12,12,14,15 475:6,9,14,16 475:23 476:17 477:11,21 sit 340:9 351:14 387:4 419:20 446:23 sitting 387:13 situation 346:23 347:2,6 349:12 357:19 381:20 398:15,25 six 392:5,11,12 405:23 size 436:16 skip 380:19,20 slight 438:7 Social 398:7 societies 334:5 380:9,16 469:13 469:15 society 470:22,23 471:2 solicitor 376:6,7 solve 360:20 somebody 353:25 380:2 399:18 424:8,9 438:16 446:11 someone's 466:25 somewhat 371:20 448:10 soon 330:13 449:22 479:22 sorry 330:19 331:2,5 333:20 334:23 342:24 351:17 353:22 355:12 360:7 361:20 363:21 369:8 371:22 378:12 380:11 385:22 390:11 391:4,5 394:13 394:14 396:21 407:5 413:20 414:11 415:8 416:2 421:13 443:16 459:11 464:12 sort 368:15 385:13 404:19 433:24 468:23 sorts 465:14,14 sought 347:5 357:2 358:2 412:8 414:7 418:22 source 422:25 468:16 speak
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
344:23 346:10 346:24 349:5 354:19 356:18 359:15 360:12 360:21,23 361:2 361:3,7,15,17 361:18 362:2 363:16 364:18 365:15,15,16,19 368:21 369:17 371:24 372:5,9 384:2 386:3 387:19 388:19 388:22 389:16 389:18,19,21,23 389:24 390:5,8 390:17,18 392:6 392:12 393:7,8 394:12 395:25 396:15 398:17 398:21 400:13 401:7 402:9 411:9 414:23,24 416:11,17 424:13 428:8 429:15 431:24 433:13,16 434:25 435:13 436:3,4 444:6 446:7,9 447:3 448:19 450:16 452:6 455:14,21 456:21 457:18 461:8 462:11,15 462:23,25 464:7 464:11 466:12 466:25 467:2,3 470:21 479:12 479:19,24 rightly 336:5 359:18 400:4 401:10 right-hand 380:2 388:4 408:25 439:7,20 452:17 ring 341:17,17 riveting 448:5 romped 446:13 room 406:19 407:2 423:14 441:15 Rostam 461:5 463:13,18,24,25 464:18,21,25 473:9 rough 414:2,4,5 Roughly 338:17 routine 342:12 343:11,12,13,14 343:16,18,22,24
344:3 Royal 329:2 Ruck 447:7 450:7 rude 419:3 475:22 475:23,23 ruling 393:4,10,11 393:16,23 413:11 433:13 433:17 434:4,11 435:8,10 run 347:14 354:18 405:21,22 406:2 407:17,18 446:6 running 357:14 357:22 358:13 359:11 runs 434:7 S s 329:23 447:24 Sabash 344:22 saga 445:15 Sakina 362:14 368:2,11,12,18 368:21 369:10 371:4,5 374:7 374:15,16,17,19 376:8 377:13 440:11 441:9,16 441:20 442:3 Salaam 354:2 389:15 sales 345:20,22,22 356:9,11 Sarah 329:12 358:6 sarcasm 451:9 sat 351:12,23 Saturday 435:21 435:22 save 411:13 saw 330:9 saying 333:25 334:10 355:25 357:15 360:8 371:3,4 375:10 411:11 424:15 426:20 427:2 428:7 432:12 443:17 445:19 445:24 457:3,24 458:4 464:9,19 469:7 473:24,25 474:8 says 334:5,17 335:13 336:9,21 343:15 348:19 357:5 361:11 379:4 380:8 388:9,15 396:24 400:23 401:6
411:7 413:12 422:23 423:6 424:21 426:16 437:3 439:14 456:11 473:17 476:18,20 scene 403:19 schedule 472:24 schedules 472:15 472:21 school 390:2 394:18,19 446:25 scratched 387:20 screen 469:2 search 375:24 second 355:2 356:23 357:5 370:19 378:25 387:24 388:13 388:14,15 389:7 400:11 412:21 419:11 428:2,17 430:16,17 433:9 442:10 seconds 409:15,17 Secret 437:3 secretaries 370:23 secretary 335:14 368:2,20 370:5 370:10 373:4 374:3 406:14 423:11 456:15 467:18 468:7 471:16,20 472:9 477:12 secretary's 406:23 section 374:17 380:9 Security 398:7 see 330:5,24 331:25 332:14 332:19 333:23 335:13 336:8 342:10 350:18 352:4,13,14,19 360:17 367:13 371:6 372:17,18 372:19,21 373:16 374:20 378:12,13 388:3 394:10 403:9 415:9 419:22 420:23 427:20 428:19 429:13 430:20 434:24 436:16 438:14 439:14 441:2 445:20 449:22 451:6 455:21
462:19 473:14 479:8,8,11 seeing 455:12 seek 418:21 seen 333:19,21,25 336:14 365:24 365:25 371:10 393:18 403:24 406:9 409:4 428:22,23 430:2 431:15,17 450:6 self-explanatory 358:4 sell 472:7 selling 465:16,18 sells 345:21 send 361:22 429:10 431:19 sending 373:2 sends 331:12 senior 330:21 467:11 sense 353:4 381:18,20,23 sensible 350:18 366:18 sensitive 366:4,22 sent 343:16 356:13 360:8 361:9,17 371:11 371:16 372:15 373:6 383:20 447:2 sentence 333:23 342:6 separate 340:12 340:14 417:21 separately 340:21 341:11,13,15 342:3 September 450:7 serious 342:9 344:2 346:23 347:6 451:2 463:2 465:9 466:17 470:10 470:17 seriously 399:20 408:5 service 368:16 session 375:22 393:7 seven 332:10,11 severely 410:21 shaken 456:5 shame 477:11,13 shark 445:12 sharks 456:10 459:18 460:2 477:6 sharp
TEL: (020) 7067 2900
FAX: (020) 7831 6864
MENGI v HERMITAGE
8 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 493] 455:22 table 351:13,15 tabled 399:22 400:18 take 330:11 339:2 364:21 370:4 371:19 372:4,13 413:20 451:11 462:2,8 472:4,6 taken 337:3 375:11 404:24 412:6 416:4 473:4 takes 332:18 377:10 talk 461:4,5 talked 417:13 465:14 talking 340:22,23 351:13 359:17 375:23 417:10 465:13,23 466:6 466:14 469:15 477:17 talks 337:5 Tanzania 379:12 379:23 393:20 410:11 421:17 423:23,25 426:9 426:25 434:16 434:17 435:4,5 435:20 436:14 453:25 462:11 470:13 472:11 476:9,16 477:13 477:17,18 Tanzanian 359:12 362:17 380:10 381:18 382:6 476:7,24 teacher 396:13 technical 451:3 technology 449:7 telephone 329:16 341:15 351:20 441:16 442:10 telephoned 441:9 television 446:12 475:12 476:6 tele-conference 440:23 tell 335:13 341:10 344:14 349:12 350:2,9,15,19 351:4,10 354:18 355:22 370:11 372:20,23 387:6 389:13 410:2,25 413:10 414:5 426:25 435:18 436:19 439:4 465:7 476:4 telling 356:3 376:13,16 425:14 441:5 458:24 tens 392:18 terms 479:12 terribly 449:12 test 410:6 tested 410:5 text 459:3 TGL 339:15 340:24 342:13 342:14 343:16 343:20,25 344:2 346:6 355:15 thank 362:14 372:5 373:14 376:3 377:24 379:17 381:10 381:24 382:10 383:3 384:2 386:5,5,10,11 387:8 391:4 394:23 429:25 430:24,24 433:9 437:21,22,24,25 438:3 439:6,11 440:9 446:5 450:3 454:3 474:16 477:22 477:23,25 thanked 396:13 theft 336:13 456:9 theory 432:8 thing 358:23 378:3 383:3 385:14 386:6 436:2,12 438:16 440:3 things 385:10 400:19 401:13 402:17 403:17 403:22 419:22 465:14 think 330:13 338:13 343:14 343:18 349:24 350:17 353:11 354:20 361:25 362:2,2 370:9 370:19 371:18 371:19,24,25 372:3 374:11 375:20 376:16 376:18 377:20 379:23 386:9 388:24 389:15 394:10 398:2
338:10,17,18 341:10 383:24 405:18 407:2,4 407:6 417:18 419:2 440:20 Speaker 393:4 433:4,5 435:8 Speaker's 433:13 433:17 434:4 speaking 399:18 455:16 458:5 476:7 speaks 407:3 477:16 special 455:12 459:6 472:23 specifically 358:19 441:6,21 458:21 speculatively 375:15 speech 400:8 speeches 469:16 spend 450:2 spills 398:9 spine 433:7 spirit 398:8 splendid 446:20 spoke 340:18,20 341:13,15 414:20 416:17 417:19 441:16 442:10 455:9 458:11 spoken 441:20 464:19 sponsors 394:22 sponsorship 469:6 469:8 sport 385:21,23 spread 437:14 sprint 419:21 staff 411:20 stage 348:4,8 349:21 374:25 375:2 stand 366:3,21 387:5 400:12 start 330:14 342:7 404:24 started 330:25 477:3 startled 359:13 starts 455:25 state 358:8 475:24 stated 388:10 440:6 452:22 statement 334:10 339:2 344:19 357:13 387:23
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LONDON, WC2A 1HP
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MENGI v HERMITAGE
8 NOVEMBER 2012
PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 494] Walsh 329:15 want 330:6 334:16 352:16 360:22 361:7,10 362:14 363:13 365:16 368:14 370:18 378:13 399:20 415:6 417:11 426:24 429:6 430:24 433:3 438:15 439:21 440:9 449:17,17 456:3 459:10,16 464:16 466:15 473:22 wanted 415:2,5,12 424:22 443:20 473:25 wants 467:24 Wanvita 368:18 369:9,21 war 424:23 474:7 477:3 warned 443:13 warning 446:14 waste 336:23 Watch 412:15 watched 411:19 water 437:3,6,18 way 338:4 342:25 349:8 351:12 353:9 357:14 364:8,21 365:9 388:14 403:10 419:22 439:11 444:24 446:13 446:14 447:5 449:23 450:9 477:3 WC2A 329:3,16 weakened 456:9 website 404:18 447:23 448:20 448:21,24 449:7 450:8 week 385:13 392:8,10 398:11 404:25 435:18 475:19 weekend 435:14 449:12 weekly 475:19 weeks 359:24 462:19 went 347:24 368:6 369:13 374:12 389:25 413:10 459:6 461:6 462:6 467:22 West 422:25 Western 422:21 whale 463:19 464:5,20,20 Whitman 329:19 wholly 335:9 wide 450:12 wife 352:15 357:6 357:7 358:6 359:23 420:25 willing 398:4 willingness 398:6 398:10 wind 479:14 wisdom 405:8 wish 427:5 450:15 479:4 wishes 406:18 wishful 443:22 withdrew 386:12 438:5 446:4 478:2 witness 339:2 344:19 371:23 375:20 376:8 386:12,13,14 387:23 388:10 388:13,14,15 389:12 392:21 394:15 396:24 398:13 400:6 401:10 404:13 408:3,24 411:6 418:16 420:2 427:16,20,22 428:2,17 430:4 430:4,7,17 431:5,12,16 434:21 438:5,6 439:15,17 440:6 446:4 447:2,8 449:7 450:20 451:12 452:13 452:22 455:3 460:17 477:25 478:2 479:4,23 witnesses 419:25 438:11 won 422:14 471:7 wonder 375:14 430:21 wondered 367:19 wonderful 473:18 word 354:3,22 355:6 378:21 460:13 475:21 475:21 words 343:3 358:4,7 379:6 380:21 457:16 work
LONDON, WC2A 1HP
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MENGI v HERMITAGE
8 NOVEMBER 2012
375:18 392:8 453:12 worked 381:21 434:8 working 345:19 379:15 440:14 works 422:18 430:14 world 441:4 worrying 451:4 worst 411:14,24 worth 398:5,6 405:8 write 344:25 354:15 359:25 360:2,5 361:14 367:15 368:18 369:7,10,12,13 370:6,7,19 writing 359:22 361:18 367:6,12 432:13 written 341:4 358:6 359:23 367:11,24 369:9 369:25 370:12 370:16 379:2 380:2 387:20 413:13 423:18 423:20 424:12 432:6,8,11,14 448:16 wrong 331:6 354:3,5 355:2 360:2 371:11 378:12 423:13 424:25 428:3,12 443:21 445:16 wrong-doing 347:18 wrote 339:8,12 357:6 369:21 371:3 429:16 472:18 473:3 X X 436:10 Y year 338:13 440:21 442:3 years 351:2 362:25 371:11 377:4 392:5,12 394:2,4 395:10 397:17 399:3 405:23 410:13 413:15 418:12 yesterday 341:21 347:25 371:10 371:14 401:17
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LONDON, WC2A 1HP
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Mengi V Hermitage 2102 Trial Transcript

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MENGI v HERMITAGE

PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 331]

IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION

Claim No: HQ10D04585

NGUMA-PRICE 2 MR. RAMPTON: I am sorry, my Lord, my page 2 is a Guardian 3 article, certainly.

REGINALD MENGI Claimant -andSARAH HERMITAGE Defendant ----------

[1] (Pages 329 to 332)

TEL: (020) 7067 2900

FAX: (020) 7831 6864

8 NOVEMBER 2012 [Page 333]

PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 335]

NGUMA-PRICE 2 Q. It is highly supportive of your client, Benjamin Mengi, is it 3 not?

NGUMA-PRICE any headlines on Silverdale.

[2] (Pages 333 to 336)

TEL: (020) 7067 2900

FAX: (020) 7831 6864

8 NOVEMBER 2012 [Page 337]

PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 339]

5 A. File 2? 6 Q. File 2, which is on the top of the box on your right. Go to 7 8 9

given to the Managing Director.

that that was the Managing Director.

[3] (Pages 337 to 340)

TEL: (020) 7067 2900

FAX: (020) 7831 6864

8 NOVEMBER 2012 [Page 341]

PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 343]

[4] (Pages 341 to 344)

TEL: (020) 7067 2900

FAX: (020) 7831 6864

8 NOVEMBER 2012 [Page 345]

PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 347]

need legal advice at this stage?

as he was concerned, it was not a legal matter, on your case?

possible problem involving potential litigation?

advice, as they clearly did, they had to look for it elsewhere?

25 A. With regard to which letter?

[5] (Pages 345 to 348)

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FAX: (020) 7831 6864

8 NOVEMBER 2012 [Page 349]

PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 351]

12 A. Let us understand it this way: it was not like we sat across

most probably was over the telephone.

24 Q. Look at paragraph 23(b) again, if you would: "As to the

[6] (Pages 349 to 352)

TEL: (020) 7067 2900

FAX: (020) 7831 6864

8 NOVEMBER 2012 [Page 353]

PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 355]

NGUMA-PRICE the company name in the second line is wrong.

8 A. I still would have advised him not to respond, but to forward

have at TGL and deal with it accordingly.

25 A. That is what the defendant is saying.

[7] (Pages 353 to 356)

TEL: (020) 7067 2900

FAX: (020) 7831 6864

8 NOVEMBER 2012 [Page 357]

PROCEEDINGS DAY 3 [Page 359]

21 MR. PRICE: Miss Hermitage had asked for a reasonable right of

[8] (Pages 357 to 360)

TEL: (020) 7067 2900

FAX: (020) 7831 6864

8 NOVEMBER 2012 [Page 361]