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Southern African Journal for Folklore Studies Vol.

21 (1) July 2011 The indigenous music learning process: A Northern Sotho perspective Madimabe Mapaya Department of Music University of Venda Private Bag X5050 THOHOYANDOU 0950 Email: Abstract
This article is a critical analysis of the modes and context in which knowledge and skills are transferred from one generation to the next. The fact that mmino (indigenous music), in its various forms, is still practised today suggests the existence of systems that ensure its perpetuation. The understanding of these systems and processes could inform the indigenising process of the South African school curriculum. To this end, a survey of institutions where some form of learning occurs was conducted. The interconnectivity of these institutions is briefly discussed. In the end, the dynamics that make the process effective are clarified .

1. Introduction With arts and culture being part of the South African school curriculum, scholarly research into traditional learning processes of music seems a worthwhile venture. Notwithstanding the fact that most music learning is a by-product of other learning, an attempt is made to reflect on such phenomena with the aim of isolating what could be considered music teaching or learning encounters. Such encounters are normally located within some form of institutions and exhibit factors or agents that actualise learning. For instance, when a ngaka (traditional healer) undergoes the process of go thwasa (special initiation process for traditional healers), he or she invariably learns the performance techniques of the accompanying music style. For the past twenty years, music educators in South Africa have played with ideas such as multicultural approaches to music education with little success. Not surprising is the fact that in South Africa the invocation of the concept multiculturalism meant that non-Africans have a license to speak for the indigent African. Because of this formulated exclusion tactic, which is disguised as a desire for inclusivity, African methodologies of teaching continue being elusive. Where an attempt is made to listen to an African opinion, such attempts were almost always mediated by Eurocentric scholarship with the intent to take only the music, and not its practitioners into account. With this fundamental flaw in approach, a challenge to devise a tool or framework for dealing with such phenomenon remains unresolved. Perhaps a question would be: why bother with African music education, if the concept of a musician is not fully established among some African communities in South Africa? For instance, Mapaya (2004) observes that the concept of a musician in Ga-Mamoleka is not commonly held amongst traditional practitioners of mmino wa seto. The closest term to musician is seopedi, which denotes a person with 65

Southern African Journal for Folklore Studies Vol. 21 (1) July 2011 singing prowess. But the term seopedi is a new invention that came to being during the advent of radio and thus modern forms of music. However, in other parts of Africa such as Ghana, the concept of musician is much more established. For example, Nketia (1992:58) postulates that since musical specialties are required for group leadership and for performance in different contexts, some kind of institutional arrangement that enables musicians to acquire their technical training that provides them with the sources of their artistic experience would seem to be of paramount importance. To answer the question, it would be advisable to assume that South African indigenous musicians would soon be recognised as such, and that the recognition of their institutions of music training would be to the advantage of music education on the whole. 2. Broad categories of music In this article, music is grouped into five broad categories, namely Music for Healing Purposes; Music for the Church; Music associated with Rites of Passage; Music associated with Social Entertainment and Music for other Purposes. These categories are interconnected, and as a result, participants involve themselves in overlapping music-making contexts. It is common to find an individual subscribing to more than one musical tradition with ease. For example, it would not be absurd to see a member of the Zion Christian Church (ZCC) being a member of a kgotho (female song and dance type of an ensemble) and at the same time being an active participant in work songs. The fluidity that enables one to move across musical traditions suggests a presence of a common thread running across the different version of music. An example of one such thread would be the method of recruitment into institutions where music making forms part of a whole. A person does not normally decide to become a ngaka (traditional healer). He or she is chosen and compelled by badimo (ancestors) as is the case with the calling of Ngoako, one of the interviewed lethwasana (sangoma initiate). This type of compulsion may be common to aspirant priests or prophets in African Indigenous Churches. In other words, many of Northern Sotho-speaking people join churches or subscribe to bongaka (the practice of traditional healing) for want of healing or protection of some kind from either witchcraft or evil spirits (Pobee & Mends 1977; Grebe & Fon 1997). There are, of course, those who affiliate with churches for spiritual reasons and do so out of their own volition. In some instances, young adults may be compelled by their cultural customs to enlist for koma (initiation school for boys). On the other hand, subscription could be a matter of choice. A person may choose to become a member of a kgotho or dinaka (male pipe-blowing song and dance) ensemble. Therefore, we speak of a continuum from imperative to the nonimperative subscription of affiliation - a picture of dynamic African institutional music-learning site.


Southern African Journal for Folklore Studies Vol. 21 (1) July 2011

Figure 1: Five categories of music institutions In sum, the foregone paragraphs have presented the main genres and the fact that affiliation to these different musical experiences varies from compulsion, at times brought to bear by external factors, to volition with all sorts of reasons in between. Figure 1 is a graphical representation of such a continuum. 3. Institutions of learning (Cells) The concept of overlapping cells (Fig 2) is used to illustrate the fluidity of roles in the music-making practices within institutions. In one category of a musical institution, for example Music for Rites of Passage, there are cells which may represent traditional 'schools' such as seame (initiation school for young girls), setlhako (the second individual initiation for a maiden in preparation for womanhood), koma (male initiation school) or modern institutions such as schools. In each of these cells, there is a version of a teacher-learner dichotomy. The same person functioning as a teacher may assume different roles. It is also normal to find one leaner being exposed to the five music making cells at any given time.

Figure 2: Schematic representation of interconnected cells 3.1. Family

The family household becomes the first learning environment where children in their formative years are exposed to the basic cultural tenets as practiced by their 67

Southern African Journal for Folklore Studies Vol. 21 (1) July 2011 parents and immediate family members. The mother deserves a special mention in this case as the first instructor since most of the active learning involves her. In GaMamoleka (research site), like in many other African villages across South Africa, fathers, uncles and brothers tend to work far away from home, whereas mothers, aunts and sisters worked mostly at home taking care of the children and the household. Furthermore, one of the traditional responsibilities of a mother, according to Mokgadi Mpya (personal interview: 07/12/2000), is to prepare her daughter for married life - deemed the crowning point of becoming a woman. Should the daughter fail to live up to expectations as ngweti (daughter-in-law), the in-laws, including the father of the daughter, who normally would absolve himself from the responsibility of preparing his daughter for married life, blame the biological mother for not teaching her well. Among other things, and in preparation for a traditional marriage, the daughter needs to develop proficiency in go reta (to praise-sing) her own clan's sereto (praise song). The mother-in-law is also responsible for teaching her new daughter go reta her new in-laws. The mother, the mother-in-law or the big sister are responsible for teaching the younger woman many other chores and practices that are typical areas of specialty for a Northern Sotho woman. As is the case in West Africa, many mothers also regard it as their duty to ensure that their daughters know dirges (Nketia 1992). The sense of being duty-bound, as far as the teaching of their daughters is concerned seems to be prevalent in mothers throughout the continent. In South Africa today, there are three types of family customs as far as Africans are concerned: 1) Families steeped in African traditional practices, where children are required to go through all different rites of passage, and are, thus, exposed to music related to all the relevant rituals. 2) Christian families, in which children are required to attend Sunday school, church services and to sing church hymns and other sacred songs. 3) Families whose customs could be located between these two extremes. As music making occurs in the Christian, traditional and the in-between families, children from the middle of the continuum may gravitate to either extremity for their further musical experiences. 3.2. Playground

Children learn a great deal from one another whenever and wherever they interact, especially in carefree environments such as the playground (Harwood 1998). It is common to find a child who grew up in a family that practises malopo (a form of African divination) going to a Sunday school. This is attributed to the fact that children, knowing no boundaries, will follow their friends from one environment to the next regardless of their cultural background. The free movement is without prejudice and it affords the child a wider childhood experience - musical experience included. Much learning takes place in these kinds of situations. The learning process here involves the child consciously noting items of interest as it follows what is happening in the differing environments as represented by its peers. To 68

Southern African Journal for Folklore Studies Vol. 21 (1) July 2011 enhance the internalisation process, children often act out their observations later in games such as masekitlana, a girls-game where dramatisation of imaginary events is played out using stones as human characters, whereas boys might act out some occurrence or ceremony, which may have made an impression on them. The impact of these learning phases on childrens makeup is tremendous. In addition, these interactive games give children from a more traditional family background a chance to teach those from Christian environments some aspects of traditional performance and vice versa. Once again, learning at this level has proved to be effective because there are no prejudices or judgmental tendencies involved. It is a give and take situation where a child and his or her peers play interchangeable roles of both the teacher and the learner throughout the playing session. 3.3. Church

The flow from the home rituals to church practices can be either smooth or uncomfortable, depending on the church in question. For example, if an individual is a lelopo, he or she is likely to occupy an important position in a church such as the ZCC as a lebone (ZCC type of a prophet) because of his or her divining and/or prophesying ability. Children who grow up in African Zionist churches also enjoy this continuity from home to the church because of the closeness of church and traditional religious practices. This continuity facilitates self-knowledge, identity and assertiveness, which often translate into a better person all-round. In addition, such continuity helps to affirm musical talent without measuring it against foreign traditions. Pentecostal Charismatic Churches (PCC), on the other hand, would discourage children who come from African religion-centred families from conducting some culture-bound rituals (Meyer 2004). Interestingly though, a closer look at the evolving modus operandi in African churches reveals that the ever-increasing popularity of the PCC is, like in Afrikan Indigenous Churches (AICs), predicated on the enculturation process. The difference is that in PCC such predication, although implicit in their ceremonies, is disguised and often publicly disowned. For instance, most of the African PCC pastors family backgrounds seem to be steeped in stronger than normal African cultural practices, which they disown in the public, of course. Sadly though, the fact that children from traditional African backgrounds are made to understand that go phasa badimo (ancestral veneration) is one of the traits of paganism and that people who practise such rituals are not worthy of inheriting the kingdom of God, as bazalwane (born-again Christians) would say. Unfortunately, most Africans, particularly women have bought into this myth. It is in such churches that traditional African epistemology, which might be the basis for a particular childs persona, is systematically and deceitfully so eroded by these beliefs. A child who wishes to belong to such a church would have to discard his or her experiences in order to qualify or to conform to the churchs doctrine. The same would apply when, in the unlikeliest of events, one converts from Christianity to traditional religion. 69

Southern African Journal for Folklore Studies Vol. 21 (1) July 2011 Suffice to say, in the PCC, children learn American-influenced church music; an activity which seems to benefits them musically albeit differently as compared to children learning the music of the more Afrocentric churches. Pentecostal churches breed vocalists because of the special focus on vocal performance, which is based on emulating their American counterparts. The mastery of American gospel music is helpful for the performance of secular music such as R & B (a modern AfroAmerican musical genre) should these church singers choose to become commercial artists. Paradoxically, a South African experience reveals that American-influenced music styles hardly match the longevity of Africa-sensed genres, a point that disproves the claim that foreign is better. 3.4. School

Akuno (2000:3) observes that 'childhood is now spent in schools, an environment that is not conducive to the informal practices of indigenous education.' All children in the Ga-Mamoleka village attend one particular primary school - Tlhakauma. Here, the fundamentals of Christianity are drilled into all children as part of their education. Commonly, one afternoon per week may be set aside for learning hymns. The teacher writes the text on the chalkboard for learners to learn by rote. Because hymns are popular among children who grow up in church environments, the hymn tunes are easily memorised, and with this, of course, the colonial legacy imprinted in their psyche (Akrofi 2003). Children who come from non-Christian families, on the other hand, are left to battle silently on their own, trying to cope with these hymns. With no realisation of this point by the teachers, such children find the school environment hostile. It is at this point, where many children discover that their cultural upbringing is either in line with the culture of the school or not. Unfortunately, if their family practices are different from those promoted by the schools, such children tend to become confused and frustrated. Often, this lack of cultural continuity from the home to the school diminishes children's self-esteem, confidence and the capacity to learn (Tyler et al. 2008). In other words, children in this category are lost for good. Cases where intelligent learners have dropped out of school because of the nonconformity between the school and home traditions are abound.


Southern African Journal for Folklore Studies Vol. 21 (1) July 2011 Figure 3: Cultural discontinuity process for African students in South African schools. A model adapted from Tyler et al., 2008. Apart from the learning of hymns, music activity in rural schools has mainly been associated with preparations for participation in choral music competitions and such music has very little to do with the experiences of children in African villages. Only recently, schools, and particularly primary schools, have started forming children into the so-called traditional music performing groups as an extramural activity a positive development that could be attributed to the introduction of arts and culture in South African schools and the awakening of the post-colonial senses in some of the teachers. With foregone arguments considered, the singing of hymns and, now, the performance of traditional music in schools would help in affirming all childrens social backgrounds. Arguably, if the majority of learners enjoy what their schooling environment has to offer, including cultural affirmation, their performance in the classroom would improve. 3.5. Koma

Koma, as it used to be decades ago, seems to be fading out in most South African villages. Today a substantial number of families refer their children to medical doctors and institutions for circumcision rather than following the traditional route. Reasons attributed to this development fall outside the scope of this article. Nevertheless, it would seem that this perceived decline in popularity of this ritual occurs even in other parts of black Africa, if Nicholss (1985:110) observation that church organisations, student organisation, and other youth groups have replaced the initiation ritual to some extent, is to be considered. Nevertheless, koma is one of the most important sacred albeit secretive rituals among Northern Sotho-speaking people. Because of the rituals secretive nature, only those who have taken part in it carry with them the cultural teachings and practices it offers. What then becomes of the music and its learning processes as they relate to Koma? It seems that these learning methodologies would remain off bound. 3.6. Setlhako

Setlhako, and its many versions, is one of the most endangered cultural practices among Northern Sotho-speaking people (Mapaya, 2010). The ritual, along with the learning processes of the music associated with it, is facing extinction. Like koma, the ritual has some sections that are secretive and not for public knowledge. However, the music is not that different from the music of kgotho. As such, the initiate would have had a prior sense of this music through hearing and witnessing performances of kgotho.


Southern African Journal for Folklore Studies Vol. 21 (1) July 2011 3.7. Sephaphatha

As a build up to a traditional wedding celebration, and in the spirit of communalism, the village community holds rehearsal sessions known as sephaphatha at both the bride and the bridegroom's homes. Sephaphatha is viewed as an important institution because it would be embarrassing if the visiting villages would out-sing the host village during the wedding ceremonies. Sephaphatha also ensures that new, fashionable songs are learnt by all and that the repertoire is big enough to ward off any competition from visiting neighbouring villages during the celebrations. However, the threat to the existence of sephaphatha, like many other African customs, is Christianity as practised today. Most churches do not welcome traditional wedding songs anymore because such songs are regarded as paganistic' and thus not as a blessing to the wedding and, by implication, the marriage. The neighbouring villages, who would have also prepared for a showdown, are discouraged upon arrival when they are told that only choruses and hymns are allowed, for instance. With the excitement of singing traditional songs replaced by church music, sephaphatha, along with the methodologies pertinent to the learning of music, is pushed to extinction. We have seen how the traditional learning institution or what is referred to as the cell could enhance or hamper the leaners self-esteem and assertiveness. The implication of this scenario extends to the deprivation of innovation and enhancement of intellectual prowess. How do you conquer the world of ideas if your culture is rendered insignificant by institutions of learning traditional or modern? The demise of traditional institutions should not be celebrated as these institutions cater for socialisation differently compared to the iconic school and church institutions of western type of civilisation. 4. Indigenous learning methods Notably, there are different modes of learning appropriate to the above cells. These modes of learning include immersion, seclusion, imitation and intuition, drilling and coercion. In a learning experience, some or all of these modes may be engaged at the same time. Also at play are individual and group dynamics. Therefore, this section of the article captures these learning modes as conceptualised and represented in Figure 2. Notwithstanding the prevalence of the teacher-learner dichotomy across all cells, the focus is placed on the analysis of the mental disposition of the learner during the different contexts of the traditional learning processes. To reiterate, learning can involve all of the methods at once or a few of them depending on several factors - most importantly the type of ritual, or the point at which certain practices are performed within a ritual. Following is a brief discussion of each. 4.1. Apprenticeship and immersion

In some African communities, where the concept of a 'musician' is clear, an aspirant drummer, for instance, is placed with a master drummer. The master drummer then teaches the learner all he knows. When the master drummer is convinced that the 72

Southern African Journal for Folklore Studies Vol. 21 (1) July 2011 learner knows as much as the master can teach, the learner is then allowed to return home to assume his or her new role as a drummer. Traditional healing within African communities follows the same kind of practice. In this type of learning environment, the learner is exposed to training for lengthy periods. For example, the training of a sangoma takes place over several months where the initiate is exposed to sangoma drumming and dancing for longer periods per day. During these sessions, the initiate would start absorbing all aspects of the culture without any external disturbance. Because of the constant exposure to music and dance, and because of the manifestation of the mental and spiritual alertness brought about by this type of conditioning or training, learning becomes effective. 4.2. Seclusion

As with immersion, seclusion plays an important role in focusing the initiate's attention on the training without the disturbances of everyday life. Seclusion also plays an important role in breaking down old habits and constructing new ones, resulting in a dramatic change of behaviour upon graduation. This method is used in all forms of koma. Learning is maximised because during the period of seclusion, music making is the major activity. 4.3. Simulation and imitation

Simulation or imitation methods of learning are perhaps the most widely practised and are prevalent in many different contexts. Since imitation is a natural human tendency, and to some extent animal behaviour, one may ignore its value as a learning process. Children use this method to build up their vocabulary, which they urgently need to communicate feelings, needs and other day-to-day experiences. While intuition may lead a child to sway or clap to music, it is also natural for the child to note and imitate adults when they sway to the rhythm of music. Adults also learn through imitation. 4.4. Observation

Sometimes learning occurs subconsciously and such learning is intuitive and therefore seems not to be mediated. However, given Nzewis (1999:75) assertion that training for expertise on master instruments is normally acquired intuitively by observing the experts, coming to understand the nature and variables of the programme of a context signified and directed by an event-music type there has to be a phase of observation for intuitive to occur. 4.5. Drilling

Drilling is another method where issues of methodology or ways of executing certain tasks are practised repeatedly until certain skills are developed. In rituals such as malopo or sangoma initiation, the initiate is forced to dance vigorously on a daily basis so that he or she learns how to achieve the state of trance within a reasonable period. In addition, a ngaka is drilled into divining for long periods 73

Southern African Journal for Folklore Studies Vol. 21 (1) July 2011 before he or she can be considered qualified. Mmasathekge (personal interview: 11/01/2001) asserts that besides the help of the spirit responsible for the conditioning of the initiate, the only way ngaka e thupja (traditional herbalist) can memorise the quantity, the type of herbs and the ailments such herbs treat is through years of practice. 4.6. Coercion

In most traditional rituals, the initiate's right to decide whether to undergo a certain ritual or not is taken away from him or her. The feeling that one has no choice but to finish the process is important in ensuring successful completion of the training. Even in school, the idea that parents are forcing their children to go to school helps to ensure that they finish their schooling programmes. 4.7. Group learning

The methods discussed in the above paragraphs dealt mainly with situations where learning involved an individual. The rehearsals are focused on group situations where learning is different. While some of the above methods of learning may apply, the group dynamics offer additional aspects that may encourage or derail learning. Since the question of skills development is not the focal point of most musical gatherings, the purpose of sephaphatha, for instance, is to build up a repertoire for the musical showdown during the celebration day. Usually, the songs that group members rehearse are mostly songs that are known to everybody. The objective of the rehearsal is to refresh the communal memory of the wedding songs repertoire. This is understandable since wedding celebrations are not an everyday occurrence. In situations such as sephaphatha, the classification of who teaches and who is being taught is not clear. James (1993:98) captured this attitude when a certain woman from within the group, in trying to help another who was new to the culture, said to her colleagues, Wait! We will build each other. No offence is taken in such cases. Primos (personal interview: 2002) has observed that African methods of learning new compositions or music, especially in a group environment, are quick, supportive, interactive and effective. Where there is a visitor within the group, he or she is asked to teach the village group songs from his or her village. Similarly, when a member of the group returns from a visit elsewhere, he or she would be asked to teach the village group songs from where the member visited. In this case, the visitor or the member who returns home from visiting some place becomes the teacher of the new song. Difficulty may arise if a song is from a different language group, resulting in the need first to learn how to pronounce words. Learning how to produce the right tone takes a while because the new language also dictates the tone of a song. The visitor, first, sings his or her part and later sings the parts for the other members of the group. The group members, through trial and error, try to follow until they have figured out the arrangement of the song. The process is quick because the musical structures, usually a call-and-response, are common among most African communities. The atmosphere at these rehearsals is such that even 74

Southern African Journal for Folklore Studies Vol. 21 (1) July 2011 when the visitor brings new information, the other members are actively interactive in learning the song. Usually, the teacher is an individual teaching many group members. There are also cases where the learner is one individual, while everybody else knows the song. In the latter situation, the individual relies heavily on his or her musical understanding, since he or she will unlikely be able to stop the group in order to ask questions. According to Maboya (personal interview, 06/12/2000), a St. Engenas choir leader, the most suitable moment for her to learn new songs is during visits the ZCC pilgrimage in Moria. As a choir member, she makes an effort to attend other choirs' practice sessions, even if it means just watching their performances. She learns most new songs this way. In a group situation, learning is by consensus. The group agrees to listen to an opinion, displaying respect for the new knowledge they are receiving. Whoever has the merit to stand up and teach is given the necessary co-operation. Usually this is not negotiated, it just happens. Primos (2001:7) uses the term 'osmosis' to describe this ability to learn when there appears to be no formal instruction. A strong-willed individual assumes a leading role without anybody questioning it. Generally, people with stronger singing abilities become leaders and thus teachers or facilitators in musical learning environment. 5. Conclusion Although the teaching of music is not an identifiable practice among some African communities, as is the case with the Northern Sotho-speaking people, music learning occurs. These music learning processes are found within many rituals. The dynamism brought about by the coexistence in the life of Northern Sotho-speaking people between the African traditional religion, Christianity and African-sensed churches such as the AICs and the PCC presents a wider scope of music experience. Also, as part of the socialisation process, individuals or groups pass through an array of rites which present further opportunities to experience and to learn about musical performances relevant to the rituals. The homestead and the playground provide unmediated learning experience as well, albeit different compared to the within-the-ritual learning, where methodologies ranging from coercion, immersion to drilling prevail. Lastly, the learner, in all guises, has to undergo most of the rites en route to becoming a complete social fit. He or she has to want to learn since there are no obvious incentives for performers. The learners personality and his or her mannerisms contribute towards the effectiveness of the learning process. 6. References Akrofi, E. 2003. Tonal Harmony as a Colonizing Force on the Music of South Africa . Retrieved from 200.pdf


Southern African Journal for Folklore Studies Vol. 21 (1) July 2011 Akuno, E. 2000. Music and Education in Kenya. In M.A. Taylor (ed.), Music of Spheres. Proceeding of the 24th World conference of ISME. Grebe, K., & Fon, W. 1997. African Traditional Religion and Christian Counselling. Nkwen: Karl Grebe. Harwood, E. 1998. Music learning in context: A playground tale. Research Studies in Music, 11 (1)pp. 52-60. James, D. 1993. Mmino wa Seto: Songs of Town and Country and the Experiences of Migrancy by Men and Women from the Northern Transvaal. Unpublished Ph.D. thesis, University of Witwatersrand. Johannesburg. Mapaya, M. 2004. Aspects of Contemporary Transmission of Sepedi Culture Through Music: Its Perpetuation Within and Beyond the Region of Ga-Maleboho, Limpopo province, South Africa. Master Dissertation. University of Witwatersrand. Johannesburg. Mapaya, M. (2010). Music of Bahananwa. Saarbrcken : VDM Verlag Dr. Mller. Meyer, B. 2004. Christianity in Africa: From African Independent to PentecostalCharismatic Churches. Annual Review of Anthropology. Retrieved 2 October 2010 from Nichols, R. 1985. Music and Dance Guilds in Idege. In I. Jackson (ed.), More than Drumming: Essays on African and Afro-Latin American Music and Musicians. London: Greenwood Press. Nketia, J. 1992. The Music of Africa. London: Victor Gollancz. Nzewi, M. 1999. Strategies for Music Education in Africa: Towards a Meaningful Progression from Traditional to Modern. Proceedings of the 24th World Conference of ISME. Pobee, J., & Mends, E. (1977). Social Change and African Traditional Religion. Sociological Analysis 38(1):1-12. Primos, K. 2001. Africa. In D. Hargreaves, & A. North (eds.), Musical Development and the Learning: The International Perspective. London: Continuum. Tyler, M. K., Uqdah, L. A., Dillihunt, L. M., Hazelbaker, B. R., Conner, T., Gadson, N., et al. (2008). Cultural Discontinuity: Toward a Quantitative: Towards a Qualitative Investigation of a Maor Hypothesis in Education. Educational Researcher 37(5):280-297. 6.1. Interviews

Maboya, S. 2000. Interview 06 December. Ga-Mmamoleka., MmaSathekge. 2001. Interview 11 January. Ga-Mmamoleka., Mpya, M. 2000. Interview 07 December. Kempton Park.