Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair?

Speakers:

Mr Clinton Power Founder and Website Concept Developer www.AustraliaCounselling.com.au Relationship Counsellor for Individuals and Couples Clinical Counsellor and Gestalt Therapist www.ClintonPower.com.au

Ms Ashleigh Woolridge Masters Gestalt Therapy Director of Training & Operations, Gestalt Therapy Sydney www.GestaltTherapySydney.com

www.AustraliaCounselling.Com.Au

[START OF AUDIO] Clinton Power: Hello! This is Clinton Power from AustraliaCounselling.Com.Au. And Im here today with my colleague, Ashleigh Woolridge, who is a Gestalt Therapist based in Sydney. She is the Director of Training at Gestalt Therapy Sydney. rehabilitation of addictions. She was formally the Clinical Director at South Pacific Private Hospital, renowned rehabilitation centre in the northern beaches of Sydney. And she has an interest in body practice and has a Masters in Body Inclusivity in Gestalt Therapy. So welcome, Ashleigh, great to have you on the call. Ashleigh Woolridge: Thanks for having me, Clinton. Clinton: Its lovely to have you here. I wanted to do this interview you today just to really expose the members of Australia Counselling to some of the foundational principles of Gestalt Therapy. Many members may have only touched briefly on Gestalt Therapy in their training. So hope we can just bring more awareness to the members about what Gestalt Therapy is and what isnt, as well. So maybe to begin with, can you just say briefly what is the philosophy and theory of Gestalt Therapy? Ashleigh: Sure. Well, first of all Im happy to hear that your interest is around sort of spreading some more information about what the contemporary Gestalt Therapy has of evolved to. Because I think there are quite a lot of misconceptions about Gestalt Therapy that are sort of hangovers from the 60s about it being heavily processed oriented psychotherapy and so on, which in many ways it is still is, its heavily experiential. Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair? Page 2 of 17 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd She has a background in

However, its also very grounded and influenced by quite a lot of philosophical underpinnings as well as therapy, psychology, etc. In essence, Gestalt Therapy was founded at a time when there was a strong emphasis in contemporary psychoanalysis and objectifying the clients pathology. Therapy came from more of a phenomenological perspective. Some of the influences of Husserl and Heidegger, and even going back to French phenomenologistits always a tricky word to sayMerleau Ponty, which included the body in psychotherapy. So Gestalt Therapy was very interested in awareness. Fritz Perls emphasised body awareness and spoke about how important it was to spend time on a daily basis, tracking in body sensations and using awareness as a tool for change. So I guess you could say the essence of Gestalt Therapy is very focused on the awareness base in the here and now. Some of the other influences into Gestalt Therapy were around Zen Buddhism and thats where it gets its here-and-now approach from. So it certainly attends to unfinished business from a persons history but I would say that the doorway to a persons history is based in the here-and-now. So rather than spending an inordinate amount of time trodging through somebodys history, we would be more looking at how does the persons history present a problem for them in their life here and now and go with that. Clinton: Thats a great point, Ashleigh. I think its what makes Gestalt Therapy such a dynamic and lively therapy is the here-and-now focus. Just on another point you mentioned, for those therapists who maybe dont know, whats a simple explanation of what this phenomenology is? Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair? Page 3 of 17 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd Whereas, Gestalt

Ashleigh: Okay, phenomenology is actually a method. We call it the Phenomenological Method. So rather than what my meaning of an event might be, a phenomenological enquiry would have a look at what the clients meaning of an event may be. Were constantly trying to understand the clients perception and meaning of the world. So the Phenomenological Method includes that line of enquiry that is curious. We bring a curiosity to the work to understand the client in their world and the clients perception of their world rather than imposed perception. Does that make sense? Clinton: Yes, it does. As a therapist you try to remain very curious about the experience of the client rather than be too heavily interpretive of what you think is going on for them. Ashleigh: Exactly. So this lends itself from some of the influences of existentialism as well. So existentialism has that in common with Gestalt Therapy, the phenomenological approach. Clinton: Yes. How would we tell if we were watching a Gestalt therapist working with a client? Lets say, we were sitting in a room watching a session unfold, are there any particular observable signs that would indicate someones using a Gestalt Methodology? I know youve mentioned the here-and-now. Ashleigh: Yep. Its interesting question because one of the founders of Gestalt Therapy, Laura Perls, said that, There are as many styles of Gestalt Therapy as there are Gestalt therapists. So it would certainly be relevant to include in asking that question the particular Gestalt therapist that was doing the work. But that in itself brings about the point that its a 2-person therapy. There are more contemporary Gestalt Therapy has included some of the intersubjectivity theories which pay Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair? Page 4 of 17 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

attention to the influence of the therapist on the client, and explore the relational dynamic that happens between the client and therapist. So you may see a conversation occurred between a client and therapist about how the client is experiencing the relationship between the diad. You might also though in that see the therapist drawing attention or awareness to the clients embodied process which may be nonverbals, sematic nuances, that kind of thing. Gestalt Therapy in its origins was known for its work with experiments. So we would use experiments, and Fritz Perls was very dynamic with his use of experiments to raise awareness. One of those experiments that was very popular and that seems to have become linked with Gestalts reputation was around the empty-chair, which was a wonderful experiment of talking to somebody who wasnt there or an aspect of yourself what Fritz Perls talked about as being disowned selves and placing them in an empty chair and having a conversation with them. So you may see any of those kinds of forms of experiments happening in the work. But the relationship between the client and the therapist for a more contemporary approach has become the experiment in it of itself. That there is more attention paid to the relationship between the client and the therapist is a microcosm reflection of the macro for the clients world. So usually, whatever the client experiences in the here-and-now with the therapist will in some way reflect how they are in the world outside of the therapeutic exchange. And if they can bring that into awareness increasingly so, that awareness actually gives them a whole lot more choice in their world because the client isnt going to be just operating from a default, Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair? Page 5 of 17 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

unaware, unconscious position and constantly creating the same results in their world without awareness. So thats where the awareness focus would be a key in the work between the two. It is a very dynamic work. Some Gestalt therapists do include touch, some include body work, some will be moving around in the room as part of those experiments. necessarily just two people sitting and talking and at times it is as well. Clinton: Yeah, that sounds like a really good point as well that there are so many different types of Gestalt therapists and the approaches you might witness could be vastly different [Crosstalk] Ashleigh: Exactly. Clinton: therapist. Im also particularly interested when I speak to therapist about Gestalt therapy they go, Oh, the empty chair. And I think youre quite accurate this link is being made from the early days of Gestalt Therapy which is certainly the work of Fritz Perls, he was a controversial figure. But how accurate do you think it is today that the empty chair is a description for Gestalt Therapy. Ashleigh: I think its about 10% perhaps even less of what we do now. Because as I said, weve been influenced increasingly in the last 60 years on things like intersubjectivity theory. The empty chair was very much, like you said, a dynamic experiment which Fritz Perls was popular for, but the emphasis was very much on the client. So there wasnt very much attention paid to Fritz Perls asfor example, the therapists influence on what was happening in the room with the client and the therapist. So it is funny Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair? Page 6 of 17 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd Its not

when people say, Oh, yes, I do Gestalt Therapy. I talk to an empty chair. Its an experiment and it is a very small part of what Gestalt Therapy has become now. I think its worthwhile kind of looking a bit more broadly at the relational aspects of Gestalt Therapy is much more than the empty chair approach. So much now. Clinton: Yes. And what Im hearing you say is its one aspect of a large theory methodology and not necessarily representative of all of Gestalt Therapy certainly contemporary practice as youre speaking about as well. Ashleigh: Thats right. Clinton: Im curious to hear more about how you see Gestalt Therapy practice being different today than perhaps it was a few decades ago, maybe even 10 years ago, like, youve mentioned intersubjectivity and Im guessing thats something which is quite new thats influenced the few in recent years. Can you say more about what are the changes youve seen Gestalt Therapy undergo? Ashleigh: Well, I think that as intersubjectivity theory has come into influence Gestalt Therapy through people like Donna Orange and Lynne Jacobs, there is much more sophisticated approach to tracking the exchanges that happen in the relationship between the client and the therapist, rather than just paying attention to what the client is experiencing and some of that may have been about something that was outside of the therapeutic relationships. So focusing on perhaps what was called unfinished business and using those experiments to perhaps have a conversation with ones mother that they never got to have before they died or something like that is a wonderful aspect to the experiment side of Gestalt Therapy. But Im thinking in the current climate, the awareness and work that we do is a lot Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair? Page 7 of 17 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

more grounded in the here-and-now between the client and the therapist. And which has been the influence of the intersubjectivity theory. Clinton: Great! What populations can Gestalt Therapy be effectively practiced with? Are there any other populations that contraindicated for Gestalt Therapy? Ashleigh: No. But I think its quite an inclusive therapy across the board because it is very broad in its application. So certainly there are Gestalt therapists who work very effectively with children and adolescents, and people with different mental health disorders and so on as adults it can also be effective. I think one of the beautiful things about Gestalt Therapy is that because it comes from a strong field theory perspective where rather than pathologising an individual, we have a look at the field conditions that are influencing how certain client might be presenting. So for example, whats happening in their family, their immediate relationships, their culture, as well as whats happening in the room between the client and the therapist. This is what we call a field perspective. So if were going to look at it from that perspective, then it really is applicable to so many different populations because its quite malleable in that sense. Clinton: Yes. Im also curious to ask you about the Gestalt Therapy Training Program, because of course you being the Director of Training of Gestalt Therapy Sydney, youre right there in the thick of it. But Im alsothere may be therapists that are listening, their curiosity is being piqued by our conversation as well. So can you give us some kind of idea whats involved in becoming a Gestalt therapist?

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Ashleigh: Sure. Well, first thing I say that Gestalt Therapy Training is something that is quite a big international community. In Australia, there are about 400 practicing Gestalt therapists that are members of GANZ. And then that links intothere are training institutes in Los Angeles, New York, Russia, Paris, New Zealand of course, London, and many other countries throughout the world. It still has a significant substantial training, following. So the training centre, Gestalt Therapy Sydney that we have here offers a Masters of Gestalt Therapy. And the training is a combination of experiential learning and very focused on personal development. Seeing that as a prerequisite to then the building blocks that come in later in the training around looking at how the theory links solidly to the practice and how its so important to be able to have a very thorough understanding of yourself in the world in order to be then coming from a place of setting yourself up to support another. So as I said, theres a strong influence on personal development. And then in later years of the trainingits a 4-year training, thats 600 hours over four years, there becomes an increasing emphasis on the practice looking into the literature, looking into theory from a comparative perspective across other modalities as well, and then working towards translating that into being available to practice in the community in their private capacity or as an employee in many different locations. There are Gestalt therapist working in quite a lot of different community organisations, health organisations and things like that, but Im aware of now as well. Clinton: So the training gives you quite a broad access to going down a number of different routes.

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Ashleigh: Yeah, from the career perspective, thats right. Obviously, a lot of people decide to set up some kind of private practice, but theres always the benefit of working in the community once graduated to gain that kind of experience anyway. And so there are quite a lot of pathways into different organisations. For example, drug and alcohol rehab centres, places like South Pacific, and people out there Gestalt Therapy is a very popular approach. Clinton: What are the benefits of someone studying Gestalt Therapy over perhaps someone who wants to do a more kind of academic course or even have some colleagues that because of the Medicare rebates have been really king of compelled to go back to university and try and get a psychology degree. So when you kind of line these courses up against each other, what would you say some of the benefits of someone choosing Gestalt Therapy training? Ashleigh: Well, I think as anything its always the varying individual selection process that people put their time and resources into what they want to kind of do with their lives and their time. I think that Gestalt Therapy training attracts people who are interested in not only being trained to be a solid helping professional, but also to include your own personal development process in that journey. So you cant become a Gestalt therapist without having to take a very long on-going, hard look at yourself throughout the training and beyond, particularly within the training program and in the early phases. So I think whether thats a benefit or not thats what the type of people that get attracted and certainly stick with the training.

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I think that sometimes people who are more interested in doing psychology or one of the courses that are offered by other education providers that dont include any personal development and personal reflection as part of the training. There are two aspects with that. Yes, certainly, they may set themselves up as a psychologist to get Medicare rebates and so on. I suppose theres something around the question of job satisfaction comes into it as well. And I also noticed that myself being in private practice as a Gestalt therapist for nearly 15 years now and having seen and weathered the Medicare rebates storm that kind of hit psychotherapists, Im noticing that a lot of people go to see psychologist s and do their allocated 10 sessions, but dont actually feel that their needs get consistently met and so end up engaging the psychotherapist because they realise that they actually do need something thats a more substantial approach. And so with Gestalt Therapy there can be 10 sessions but it can be 10 months or it can be a little bit longer. So its a very different paradigm I suppose in that sense that youre including yourself in as a person as well as a professional. Clinton: Yeah, Im really on the same page with you, Ashleigh. In my private practi ce, I see lots of clients who have done their Medicare sessions and have left feeling like theyve hadtheyve got something maybe, but just felt dissatisfied. And certainly I really believe you can create a thriving practice if you get your marketing skills right, and you dont need to have Medicare rebates. Its certainly been my philosophy and when Im trying to teach with Australia Counselling members as well. In the other part, I hear you saying as well which I love about Gestalt Therapy is just the human aspect and the emphasis on the development of the therapist. And I know in my own Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair? Page 11 of 17 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

training, this was such a special part of the training. And I think to be an effective therapist today you really have to do that deep and sometimes difficult work of looking at yourself, looking at your own issues so that you can be more effective with working with other people. I think this is what the Gestalt Therapy training offers by really allowing the students to go so deeply into their own processes and understand more about whats going on for them in the client-therapist relationship. Ashleigh: Yes, because also then thats going to create something that is sustaining for the therapist in the sense that you really kind of expect the client to go on a journey that you havent yet been on yourself. And so in that sense theres a strong integrity, but theres also something about people who I see who maintain solid on-going practices are people who are constantly working on themselves in some way. It really is a bit of a lifestyle, like, a life choice in becoming a psychotherapist. So I think thats the difference between psychotherapy and psychology in some ways is that the de pth of exploration that a psychotherapist will constantly be willing to go through with themselves and therefore, co-journey with a client. Clinton: Absolutely. And I should also just say as a side note, we have many

psychologists on Australia Counselling, and certainly many psychologists do their own therapy and do their own exploration and do wonderful work with clients. So Im certainly referring to is probably the kind of straight down the line psychologist who does CBT and probably hasnt done much self-exploration. And certainly those psychologists are also very prone to burn out as well. So I think thats an important point that its nurturing just not for the client but also the therapist whos Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair? Page 12 of 17 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

willing to have create therapeutic relationships that are engaging and are also equal to some degree. Ashleigh: Yeah, correct. Clinton: What are some of the changes youve seen your students make as they progress with the training program? Because Im imagining some people will come in to the training program to begin with, though for personal development you dont necessarily have to be one of become a counsellor. Is that correct? Ashleigh: Yeah, thats true. The first year of the training, the graduate certificate part of the training is an option for people to come in and explore Gestalt Therapy from an experiential perspective and have an introduction to the theory which can either be for people who want that personal reasons or for professionals who just want to have a little bit of an understanding of Gestalt Therapy on top of their practice. And then theres a decision point about whether or not people decide whether they want to pursue their remaining three years of the masters program in order to work towards becoming a Gestalt therapist. So theres an enormous amount of change that comes for an individual during that whole process. Its funny a lot of people end up for some reason or another leaving long-term relationships when they start the Gestalt Therapy training. I see that quite a lot unsatisfying relationships, so it must be the case. Certainly though, you see people are coming more into their own awareness and taking more of the sense of agency over their own lives and then using those experiences that have in say group process with other trainees as opportunities for growth. Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair? Page 13 of 17 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

All of the trainees are also required to be in their own therapy during the training each year that theyre in the training. So you cant go through that kind of process without experiencing significant growth and whether that be that you decide to leave an unsatisfying situation or generally people just coming to a greater sense ofhow do I articulate it. Its something about self-agency, self-confidence, their confidence that comes with selfefficacy around having a contribution into the community as well. I think some of those are some of the things that are quantifiable. But I think the internal changes that happen for people are very personal and very deep. Clinton: Yeah, Im just smiling as Im listening to you, Ashleigh, because I found the reverse was true for me as I was actually able to form a long-term relationship [Crosstalk] Ashleigh: All right! Clinton: Gestalt training. But I think what youre saying is that certainly if you want to go this type of training be prepared for change. Ashleigh: Yes, thats true. Which is like the journey of psychotherapy, isnt it? I always say to clients, This might feel worse before it feels better. But the idea in the long run is that it will make change and so that a persons experience of being in the world will be more fulfilling and rich and more wholesome and so on. And I think the paradigm that Gestalt Therapy sits within is a different paradigm to the white western cultures paradigm that does pathologise the individual.

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So it gives the therapist the opportunity to kind of being the world and see the world from a different perspective which is a lot more holistic anyway. That can open up a whole broader range of opportunities and satisfaction for being in the world as well. Clinton: Im imagining it must be very satisfying for you to see the students come in year 1 and then four years down the track, the changes theyve undergone, and the kind of skills as a therapist developed up in front of you. Ashleigh: Yes, most definitely. Their skills as a therapist but also the flourishing that happens as human being so I feel privileged to be part of that journey with the trainers, yes, definitely. Clinton: Wonderful! Im so appreciative of you speaking to me today about Gestalt Therapy and Im hoping that the Australia Counselling members have a flavour of what Gestalt Therapy is and maybe they may want to find out more so. Two questions, what books would you kind of recommend someone who wants to find out more as a starting point with Gestalt Therapy, and also how they can contact you and Gestalt Therapy Sydney? Ashleigh: Well, there are some recent publications. Its a very good one that just working my way through it at the moment called, Gestalt Therapy Advancing Theory and Therapy by Talia Bar and Yoseph Levine are the editors, and anything by Gary Yontef, Lynne Jacobs, and Richard Hycner are some good authors to have a look at from the perspective of intersubjectivity being included into Gestalt Therapy. So theyre probably some starting points and for people who are interested in the body aspect of Gestalt Therapy, authors like Michael Clemmens, Jim Kepner, and Ruella Frank are also some really good publications there. In order to contact Gestalt Therapy, we have the Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair? Page 15 of 17 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

website www.GestaltTherapySydney.Com

We have all about courses available on there and

contact details on there. So that will probably the best starting point. Clinton: Right. Do you have an intake every year, does it close around March? Ashleigh: Yeah, we have an intake at March at this point in time and we may at some stage have a mid-year intake but at the moment, its beginning a year intake each year. But we also have quite a diverse selection of professional development opportunities that happen throughout the year as well that might be of more interest to your members as well if theyre thinking about just doing something thats just a little toe in the water or wanting to get some professional development hours up on the workshop stage, there are quite a lot of different things on there as well. Clinton: Great! And can members signup for updates when workshops are released? Ashleigh: Yes, definitely, they can join. Clinton: Okay, great. The other thing worth mentioning as well is that if youre listening to this recording and youre not in Sydney, there are certainly other Gestalt Therapy training organisations in some of the major capital cities. And theres certainly in Melbourne, Brisbane, in Perth, I think theyre the main ones. Are there are others actually that people should be aware of? Ashleigh: Well, those are the main ones. Theres another one Terrigal . But its worthwhile mentioning the GANZ website because all of the GANZ-accredited training centres are listed on the GANZ website. So that is www.GANZ.Org.Au which is also another good website to have a look at if anyone is interested in Gestalt. And Gestalt links on there and things like that as well. Is Gestalt Therapy More Than An Empty Chair? Page 16 of 17 2012 Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd

Clinton: Great! So thats GANZ with a zed, GANZ.Com.Au. Thank you for that. Ashleigh: .Org.Au. Clinton: Im sorry, .Org.Au? Ashleigh: Yep. Clinton: So certainly go to GANZ website to get more information about Gestalt. And thank you again for your time, Ashleigh. Im very appreciative of it, and hope we can speak soon. Ashleigh: Right, youre welcome, Clinton. Bye. Clinton: Bye, Ashleigh. [END OF AUDIO]

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