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STATE OF MICHIGAN 28TH CIRCUIT COURT FOR THE COUNTY OF WEXFORD WILLIAM S. BARNETT, in his capacity as MAYOR OF THE CITY OF CADILLAC, Petitioner, v File No. 11-23578-CZ HON. WILLIAM M. FAGERMAN JIM BLACKBURN, Respondent.

9 / 10 11 12 13 14 15 For the Petitioner: 16 17 18 For the Respondent: 19 20 21 Also Present: 22 RECORDED BY: 23 24 25 26 Ann N. Holmes, CER 2629 Certified Electronic Recorder Network Reporting Corporation Firm Registration Number 8151 1-800-632-2720 Jim Blackburn MR. ROGER WOTILA (P22561) McCurdy Wotila & Porteous, P.C. 120 West Harris Street Cadillac, Michigan 49601 (231) 775-1391 MR. MICHAEL D. HOMIER (P60318) Foster, Swift, Collins & Smith, P.C. 1700 East Beltline NE, Suite 200 Grand Rapids, Michigan 49525 (616) 726-2200 DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM S. BARNETT Taken by the Respondent on the 17th day of April, 2012, at 120 West Harris Street, Cadillac, Michigan, at 10:00 a.m. APPEARANCES:

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TABLE OF CONTENTS PAGE

Examination by Mr. Wotila 4 5 6

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EXHIBIT INDEX PAGE

7 8 Deposition Exhibit 1 marked . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

("Cadillac News" article) 9 Deposition Exhibit 2 marked (Notice of Removal) 10 Deposition Exhibit 3 marked (MCL Sec 38.504) 11 Deposition Exhibit 4 marked (MCL Sec 38.503) 12 Deposition Exhibit 5 marked (Letter, 10-28-11) 13 Deposition Exhibit 6 marked (Letter, 10-30-11) 14 Deposition Exhibit 7 marked (Verified petition) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 116 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 97 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 88 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 69 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 68 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 63

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Cadillac, Michigan April 17, 2012 - 10:50 a.m. REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that

the testimony youre about to give will be the whole truth? MR. BARNETT: Yes.

WILLIAM S. BARNETT having been called by the Defendant and sworn: EXAMINATION

You are William S. Barnett? Yes. And your present age? 52. You're currently the -- serving as the mayor of the City of Cadillac; is that right? Yes. Have you been deposed before? I don't recall. Okay. Yes. So I'll go over only briefly a couple of thoughts because I'm sure you've been in depositions before, or attended them? Yes. Okay. I'm going to ask you a series of questions. If you Ever had a deposition taken? How old are you, Bill?

I don't believe so.

I think you are a practicing attorney; is that right?

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don't understand something, please let me know. clear, let me know.

If it's not

If at any time you'd like to take a I don't operate a

break, talk to your counsel, that's fine.

deposition in a way to keep people here if they have some question they'd like to raise with their attorney. let me know. So just

Again, your answers are going to have to be

verbal because this is being recorded and so a nod of the head or something, if you fall into that I might remind you so that we get a verbal response for the record. enough? Yes. Now, you received a subpoena. And pursuant to that Fair

subpoena, you brought some materials here; is that right? Yes. And to the best of your knowledge -- well, let me back up. We set the deposition for 10:00; it's now about -- 10:00 o'clock a.m.; it's now 10:50 or 10:52. And for the record,

the materials you delivered to us we've briefly gone over before beginning this deposition; is that right? Yes. As to the materials you brought, this would be any and all correspondence that you had relating to -- in your possession -- the City of Cadillac mayoral campaign? Yes. Let me back up. Do you have a practice or procedure with

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your e-mails where you might, as of a certain date, destroy or -No. I've destroyed no e-mails that I can recall in the last

10 years for anything. Really? Uh-huh (affirmative). That's -MR. HOMIER: Can we just -- just for the record, I

want to make sure that we have produced the documents pursuant to the request, but we are not waiving any objection with respect to any of the documents produced. But I just wanted to make sure that was clear. MR. WOTILA: I will acknowledge that any and all

objections to privilege or any objections that might pertain to any of the Michigan Rules of Evidence are acknowledged. Let me -- I don't recall. I've probably have deleted

e-mails in my life or sometime but not since this occurred. And there's -- anything that you have is what I have. the best of my knowledge nothing was deleted. Okay. I'm simply asking what your procedure is. My To

understanding is some people would on their personal e-mails go back at a certain number of time and delete things; other people don't. delete? I don't delete. That's correct. I have not deleted any of So it's generally your practice not to

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the stuff related to what you've subpoenaed. All right. And I'll get to some of those materials you've Briefly regarding your educational

delivered to us.

background, you attended Michigan State University; is that right? Yes. Received a -- what? -- a BA degree or BS degree? One of them; probably a BS. And you attended law school and have an LLB or a JD? JD. And you are presently licensed to practice law; is that right? Yes. I'd like to go over with you -- let me jump ahead a bit. And I have a copy from your counsel, a witness list you produced. Okay. MR. WOTILA: I have another copy here, Counsel, if

you want to have that, but I'll kind of walk through that. Jumping ahead, we are here in relation to the litigation that's ongoing in Wexford Circuit Court, William S. Barnett as Mayor of the City versus Jim Blackburn. And in the

process of this litigation, you and/or your counsel have caused to be produced a witness list; is that right? Yes.

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I've put a copy of that in front of you. through this.

Let me walk

You have named as a potential witness, number

4, Michael Filkins; is that right? A Q A Q A Yes. Do you know Mike? Absolutely. How long have you known Michael? I couldn't tell you. I've known him very well for a number

of years; maybe 10, 15. Q What information do you anticipate Michael Filkins has that he might testify to at trial in this case? A Just observations with regard to the campaign; management of the campaign and/or members of the committee. Q All right. So you've known Michael Filkins for a number of

years; correct? A Q Yes. You've known Carla Filkins for a number of years; is that right? A Q Much longer. Would you have considered yourself -- and I want to go before September of 2011 -- to be social friends with them? A Yes. Very close friends, actually, with Mike Jr. and Mike

Sr. and not as much with Carla, but close to that. Q Would you have in your relationship with them formed -let's start with Michael Sr. -- any opinion as to his

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credibility or believability? I don't know for sure. you're asking for. I -- I guess I don't know what

I've helped him on some legal matters

that I'm not at liberty to discuss here at this point. All right. Let me be a bit more specific. Do you have any

reason to believe that Michael Filkins would not be a honest person in any situation where he's asked to testify? I have no idea. In your personal life -- I'm not talking about your professional life -- have you had occasion to believe that Michael Filkins was not an honest person? I don't have any specifics; no. Same question as to Carla Filkins. Well, yeah; her campaign literature was not accurate. She

said she grew up in the Cadillac area, which I believe to be false. And someone wrote me a letter from Tustin indicating

that she was -- they've known her forever; I knew that's where she was from and that was not honest. I didn't understand that, so I might be a little more clear, you mentioned some campaign literature that Carla had. You're referring to when she ran for the Mayor of the City of Cadillac last fall; is that right? Yeah. I'd say some of the facts in her campaign literature Or -You

were not truthful.

Let me be specific about what you've just brought up.

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said that she's -- some of her literature said she grew up in -The Cadillac area. -- the Cadillac area; is that right? Yeah; yup. And you obtained some information from someone that she lived -- what? -- outside the state? No; no. Outside of -She's lived in Tustin. -- the County? She's an Osceola County -- raised in the Osceola County area, and also attended school in Marion. To me, that's not

somebody being born and raised in Cadillac. Did she say she was -- let me back up. things. You just said two

Did she say in the literature she was, quote, "born

and raised in Cadillac"? That was the implication being stated; yes. No; let me restate this, sir. Did she say, in the

literature she was "born and raised in Cadillac"? No. I've said -- I'm sorry for misspeaking slightly. What is it she said that you took issue with,

Thank you. then?

What was her phrase?

I'm not going to say I took issue with it, I don't see it as a truthful statement, or accurate.

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Q A

What is it that you feel was not a truthful statement? I told you. She claimed to have been born and raised in the

Cadillac area. Q All right. And you -- the phrase "Cadillac area," you take

that to mean the city limits -- you personally -- of Cadillac? A Q No. I would say at least Wexford County. So you would take it to mean that being born and

All right.

raised or living her life in the Cadillac area would be false if she lived at some point outside of the county? A Q A She lived in Manton and Tustin that I know of. All right. Let me be clear.

Probably the Marion side of Tustin; I don't know for sure. But it's not the end of the world, but I believe that was stretching the truth and not being honest. feel about that. That's how I

All right.

Let me just try to get a clear definition

because I've been asking you a question about her credibility. And so to summarize, you feel she was not

truthful or lying because she had literature that said she was raised in the Cadillac area and you would not consider Manton to be the Cadillac area; is that right, from what you just said? A Yeah. I would say I was born and raised in Manton, attended That was

Manton High School, and be accurate with people.

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misleading.

I wouldn't say it's a lie, but it's misleading

and stretching the truth. Okay. You named -- when I asked you what Michael Filkins

might testify to -- or why -- let me rephrase that -- why you named him as a witness, you said something to the effect that he would have information regarding her campaign and her committee, et cetera. right? He was very active in her campaign; appeared to be present anytime she was. So I don't have any personal knowledge Something to that effect; is that

about Michael Filkins other than he wrote me an e-mail the year before, or some kind of FaceBook note just indicating that he was upset about my statements to the sheriff, regarding the sheriff's work ethics and that's the end of it. Well, he had been a personal friend of yours, as you stated, and you mentioned there was an e-mail. Well, I don't know about if it was an e-mail; it was a FaceBook message. All right. It was a message via computer, via FaceBook, and

he was upset about something you had said or done about the sheriff -- being the Wexford County Sheriff? Yeah. I called the Sheriff lazy and he didn't like that.

Did you have any discussion or follow-up with him about that?

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No.

I had a couple back and forths.

He was -- I don't know

if he was leaning toward an apology or something, but that was basically the last I heard from either one of these folks or Mike in particular. Q Maybe I misunderstood. So he sent you some sort of FaceBook

message concerning the sheriff of Wexford County, I take it? A Q Yeah. And I asked if you had a follow-up and you said "no," but then you said there was some back and forths. So let me be

clear, after that initial message, what do you mean by "back and forths"? A Well, there was just a couple back and forths on that message. There was no contact after that. That was the

last I heard from him. criticized his friend. Q

Obviously he was upset that I'd

Do you remember exactly or paraphrase in any more detail what it was he said to you about that?

Kind of like, "Why did you say the sheriff was lazy?"; that he disagreed with that and stated basically that he works hard. I didn't really get into it with him, other than I

just let it go at some point and stopped responding to him. It disappeared and that was the end of it. Q I take it the phrase you're referring was the time when you were speaking to a Cadillac city police officer and were -A Yes.

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Q A Q

-- recorded; is that right? Yup. Oh, yeah.

Now, did Carla Filkins address you about that issue or any similar issue in that time period or going into 2011?

I don't know.

My understanding is Mike speaks for Carla on

occasion, so I suspected that that was from both of them. Q Let me be clear on that. Carla"? A Just -- one of my friends and one of the council members works on a committee with him. He's just indicated that What do you mean, "Mike speaks for

he's always dealing with Mike and Carla's sitting next to him in the car and he's just speaking for her. know. Q You really did lose me on that and we may be a bit far afield. I'm just curious -- I don't quite understand. A So I don't

friend of yours that sits -- what? -- on city council? A Yeah. It's Art Stevens. He's worked with them on a

committee forever and just, you know, fills me in from time to time on his comings and goings and just notices that it appears that Mike speaks for Carla sometimes and I wondered, but I don't know. whatsoever. So I don't know if she had any part Carla's best

It could have been from Mike.

friends with Gayla Finstrom, and I'm sure she was disappointed in my statements as well. If I were someone's

friend and were loyal to them, I would be disappointed, too.

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Okay.

So you've named Mike Filkins as a potential witness

because you feel he may have information concerning Carla Filkins' campaign, to start; is that right? A Q A Uh-huh (affirmative); yes. Concerning any committee she may have had; is that right? Committee, volunteers, people working with the committee; yes. Q A Q And any management of the campaign who may have information? Yeah. Have you spoken with Michael Filkins regarding any of those topics since September of 2011? A Q A Q A What topics? Carla Filkins' campaign, -No. -- and how it was run? I would probably believe we're not on speaking terms, based on the -- the FaceBook message and the fact that she ran for mayor. I'm sure that's caused hard feelings. So I've not

spoken to him, and I didn't need to speak to him after my observations of what occurred in the week of October 17th. Q All right. Now, has anyone else given you information as to

what Michael Filkins would say regarding who was on Carla's campaign committee? A Q I don't recall. Someone may have talked to you about that?

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Art may have. Art did.

They had a meeting at some point, Mike and But you could

I don't remember what was said.

find that out from Mr. Stevens. Q A Q So Art -- you're referring to Arthur Stevens? Yeah. And he make have had a conversation with Mike Filkins regarding the campaign at some point; is that right? A Q Yeah. I don't recall if it was before or after the filing.

Can you remember anything about any conversation you had with Art Stevens as to any statements Michael Filkins made about the members of Carla Filkins' campaign committee?

A Q

I don't believe so. Can you recall anything Arthur Stevens told you that Michael Filkins would have said or represented regarding the management of Carla Filkins' campaign?

I don't believe so.

It's not that I don't remember; I don't

believe things like that were discussed. Q Okay. The same question regarding Carla Filkins. Anything

that you may recall that Arthur Stevens said to you that conveyed information about Carla Filkins' campaign committee? A Basically Art Stevens had seen cars -- like, Jim Blackburn's car over there, Doug Mellema, saw his car over there during the summer, what looked to be on Thursday. me, I'd go to softball games, drive by. They would call

I don't know --

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didn't know at the time what Jim's car was.

It appears to

be a small, gray convertible with a black top but I didn't know that at that time. I wasn't watching them or spying on But there were a number

them or even seeing who was there.

of cars there on Thursday nights, which his car was one of them. So this is -According to them. All right. So --

"Them" being Arthur Stevens and Doug Mellema? It was

They each at different occasions had told me that. not a factor whatsoever in this filing. I haven't asked that yet.

I'm just trying to find out -- I

was referring to Arthur Stevens, but you mentioned Doug -Douglas Mellema, that at some point -- and you mentioned this summer -- reported to you cars that would be at Carla Filkins' house on Thursday nights? I just played softball on Thursday nights. I recall at

least one occasion as I was driving to The Pines that I received a call that said there was a meeting at Carla's house tonight. Let me be a little more clear, because I know it's hard to pin down, but I'm just trying to sort it through. You

recall one occasion, a Thursday night, when you played softball when you received such a call; is that right? Right. That's the way I go there anyway. On other

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occasions I saw what looked to be other meetings or several cars there. All right. Which could have been anything. All right. There was a Thursday when you played softball.

On that Thursday you recalled when you played softball, who phoned you? Council member Art Stevens did, but not as a council member; just as a friend. All right. And you also mentioned -- was there another time

that either Mr. Stevens or Mr. Mellema phoned you regarding cars at the house? Mr. Mellema's never told me this. said he saw that at some point. Art passed it on that he And I passed the house on

other occasions on Thursday nights and saw groups of people there. Who knows what's going on; who cares. So we have one occasion where

I'm just trying to be clear. Mr. Stevens phoned you? That's it.

And that was a Thursday night; is that right? Yeah. Mr. Mellema never phoned you? No; not that I recall. All right. And so that's one occasion. Now, you've Was

mentioned other occasions when there were cars there.

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that information you got from Mr. Stevens or Mr. Mellema? I think Mr. Stevens said there was another time he spotted Mr. Blackburn's car there, so there were three spottings. But -Okay. So I've counted two --

-- I wasn't counting at the time. I'm just trying to be clear. I've counted two, now; one You just

when you received a call from Mr. Stevens.

mentioned there was another time Mr. Stevens mentioned it, that's two. What is the third time, just so I'm clear?

Just through what I believe to be "Doug saw it, too" was told to me by Art. That's my recollection.

So Art Stevens told you that Doug told him that they saw Jim Blackburn's car at the Filkins residence? That's correct. Okay. Do you know if that was the same time that Art saw it Any idea?

or a different time?

The impression I got was that it was at a different time. (Off the record interruption) Can you place a time period on this? No. You know, I can't really. I believe my schedule starts

in May as far as softball, or June; and somewhere between June and August. So roughly -Inclusive.

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-- you're aware of three times between June and August where Mr. Blackburn's car may have been at the Filkins residence?

A Q

Right.

This has played no part whatsoever into my filing. I'm simply trying to sort

I haven't asked that question. through --

A Q

I'm trying to save you some time. I appreciate that. So about three times between May and

August that his car may have been at her house; is that right? A Q That's what I've heard. All right. Now, do you know how long Carla Filkins and Mike

Filkins have known Jim Blackburn? A Q A Q I've heard 25 years or so, or 15; I don't recall what -Do you know if --- it was. Oh, I'm sorry. I cut you off. Do you know if they're

social friends still? A Q I would assume so. Do you know how far Mr. Blackburn lives from Mr. Filkins and her house? A As crows fly, fairly close. I'm not always sure which house

is Jim Blackburn's but I probably could pick it out within three. Q A Okay. Yeah. SO he lives on Holly Road?

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Would it be fair to say that's not a three-minute drive from his house to Filkins' house?

A Q

Yeah; right.

Going around. So as to Carla Filkins

Do you have any -- let me back up.

and Michael Filkins, you have named them as potential witnesses regarding any information they might have regarding Carla's campaign, how it was managed, and information regarding the committee, essentially; is that right? A Q Yeah. Can you tell me, if you know, what information you have from Carla Filkins -- from Carla specifically, that would state that Jim Blackburn was on her campaign committee? A Just their appearance at the city council meeting and coordinated effort in concert in sitting next to her. I

don't know if they arrived or not -- I think people had told me they did but -- together but it was obviously a planned event. And, you know, he's sitting there with his hand on They

her leg, and -- she's moving it away; I don't know.

appeared to have a pretty strong relationship; at least that's what I've been told by a person seated behind them. Q Could you -- you've stated on the record here under oath that Jim had his hand on Carla's leg? A Q Yes. I believe trying to calm her and being supportive.

Well, let's be clear.

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That's what I heard from a person seated behind her. didn't see it. It didn't matter to me.

I didn't know it at

the time I filed this. Q Well, you brought it up, so I just want to be clear what it is you're saying. And I appreciate your clarification.

One, you didn't see this, what you've just testified to? A No. It was reported to me through Gordon Maxwell, who was

seated right behind them. Q A All right. So Mr. Maxwell made a statement to you, --

I don't know if it was to me or someone else, but it got back to me that --

Well, sir, I'm trying to be clear, please. to be difficult. statement, --

I'm not trying

But you started out with a broad

A Q A

Yeah. -- about a form of touching. It was not bad touching, it was supportive touching and, you know, support. That's what people do. It's not a big deal, I don't recall if

and, again, did not fit into my position. I was told this before or after filing. being a nice person in hindsight.

It appears could be

I don't have a problem

with that, I'm just pointing out they were seated together and spoke out in -- basically in unison with a one-two combination. To me, that appeared to be an active part in This was her campaign.

the management of her campaign.

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This splash was her whole campaign at that point.

They had

some signs, some letters and pretty quiet race up until then. All right. Let me clear as to the issue that I prefaced

this with, was information you had personally that would come from Carla Filkins if she testified regarding Jim being on her committee. And you responded to an appearance, I

believe this would have been October 17th, before the city council; is that right? Yes. I've already told you I've had no contact with Carla

so there would be no way for her to tell me anything about it. So the question is a dead-end. Now, you've mentioned, then, that there

Well, it may be.

was -- you didn't see Jim touch Carla, but someone else apparently did. I'm trying to walk through this.

It's not touching; he placed his hand on her knee to calm her, she would remove his hand, he kept putting it back to calm her, and that's it. reported to me. You can understand my asking the question because it could be interpreted several ways from your initial statement. I told you -Could that be fair? -- it wasn't a bad touching; it was a human thing, supportive thing, from what I could tell. And -I didn't see it. That's what was

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Q A Q

All right.

From what you could tell --

-- irrelevant. Now, that's the next point. Well, I'm trying to find out

what -- you've indicated that the information you had came from this one event at the city council meeting. Now, then

you said you thought Mr. Maxwell reported it to you. A Q A I -Did Mr. Maxwell report that to you? I believe he did at some point. He didn't report it, but he

had commented that he thought it was interesting that that occurred. Q A Where were you when Mr. Maxwell told you that? I don't recall if he stopped over at my home or if he told me this over the phone. Q All right. So it would have either been him stopping at

your house or over the phone? A Q A Yeah. Are you friends with Mr. Maxwell? I don't have any acquaintance with him. He's a supporter.

He likes good government, low taxes, and efficient government. Q A That's commendable. So he is a supporter of yours?

He has been, although he also supports Heron Township and, you know, he works for them. as far as I can tell. He's a township guy at heart,

But -- so he does support me, but he

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also is very interested in townships, not only Heron, he attends Clam Lake meetings, presumably others. He just is

interested in government and is not afraid to speak out and help others that he believes are doing the right things in government, that are honest and are doing what they're supposed to do. Now, you've mentioned -- and I'll refer to this October 17th council meeting, which is a meeting where Ms. Filkins addressed council and Mr. Blackburn addressed council. that's the time we're talking about; correct? Yeah. And I asked you -- I'm sorry -- I didn't ask you; I'll rephrase that. You had just said you concluded from that, So

that Jim Blackburn was a member of her committee. I didn't say that. I said that he was coordinating efforts

with her, in concert, obviously; they both appeared together and sat together and got up one after another, both out of line in the wrong part of the meeting, -All right. -- and, in my opinion, made fools of themselves. Well, in the process of making fools of themselves in addressing council, did either one address or say they had come together? No. Did they state that?

I believe somebody has told me that -MR. HOMIER: Are you talking about before or after

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the meeting? MR. WOTILA: I'm talking at the meeting. I'm

still -- I'll restrict this to -MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: Okay. -- during the actual council meeting.

Was there any statement by either one that they had come together? Yes. And I don't recall who, or how it got to me. I know

Mike has said that it was reported to him. All right. Let me back up.

Mike, my lawyer.

Someone -- I don't know who -- saw that. I saw them coming or going.

I don't know that

In fact, I know they left, So I didn't --

actually, before the meeting was over.

Do you have any information, sitting here now, that they came to the -No. -- meeting together? No. Other than what I've heard and, again, that's not a What was a factor was their -Wait a minute. When you talk about

factor, really.

MR. HOMIER:

"coming together," are you talking about appearing together, riding in the same car together, walking in together? MR. WOTILA: Counsel. Fair question. I would agree,

Let me clarify that.

Do you have any personal information that they drove to the

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council meeting together? No. Do you have any personal information that they walked into the council building together? I don't recall. Do you have any personal information that they walked into chambers together? I don't recall. Do you have any personal information that they, before coming to council, planned their presentations together? It appeared as such. Appeared from what you observed at the meeting? Yeah. Do you have -- other than what you saw there, the conclusion you drew, do you have any information from any source that they planned this presentation together? Just the coordinated nature of the two statements. Well, that's -- okay. That's -- in other words, you think

the statements -- what do you mean by "coordinated nature"? They were all consistent with one another. Could that be consistent with -- what do you mean, "consistent"? Let me stop. I didn't phrase that well.

That was unclear.

What do you mean they were "consistent"?

They were both on the same topic, and obviously an attempt to sway an election.

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They were both on the topic of you having appeared in a radio show out of Traverse City; is that right?

Right. said, --

They both misrepresented the radio show and what was

Q A Q

Now, --- consistently. All right. So you've talked about and testified to what you Up until October 17, 2011, at the

observed at that meeting.

city council meeting, before that date, did you have any information that Jim Blackburn served on the campaign committee of Carla Filkins? A Just the fact that I had been called over the summer, it was either -- it was from Art and I heard through Doug, but I didn't even think of that at that point. mind. Q So when you're referring to being called over the summer, there was information that Jim's car had, on -- and I think we've estimated somewhere between two and three occasions, had been seen at Carla's house. referring to? A Q During what looked to be a large gathering of people. Okay. So now you've identified Jim's -- some information That's what you're That was not on my

you received of Mr. Blackburn's car at her house, and the October 17th meeting. Up until the close of that meeting,

October 17th, before that date, all of 2011, what other

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information did you have that Jim Blackburn served on her committee? I don't -- I wasn't collecting that or looking for it, so I had none. This was the -- not a concern even -- it wasn't a

concern until Friday of that week when I received a phone call that there was notice to the City that there's an issue here. All right. We'll get to that in a moment. Let's go to the

next witness. list.

Mike Bengelink you've named on the witness

What information do you anticipate Mike Bengelink

would testify to regarding this case? He's -- looked like the treasurer of Carla's campaign. All right. Anything else?

Just his involvement with his approach to Art Stevens after the failed sheriff senate campaign where he met with him and basically warned him, which probably Art felt was a threat, to get away from me; threatened him with a private investigator and indicated they were going to bring basically both Art and myself down. There were investors,

some of them were attorneys, and Mr. Bengelink indicated -Let me back up, because I'm lost of where you're talking about. First of all, were you present during any of these Or is this information Art related to you?

discussions?

He related to me after he followed Mr. Bengelink down to the City police post.

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Q A Q A

When was this?

What are we talking about?

Probably September of that year. You mean 2011? Yeah. After the primary sometime. It might have even been

in August still. Q What was this? that right? A Q Yeah. And you weren't present but Art has told you about this; is that right? A Q Yeah. And what is it that you're saying Bengelink said to Mr. Stevens? A He threatened or warned him that a group of people in this community that had money were going to hire private investigators to destroy him and me, and this was his last chance to flip his position on the road patrol issue. Q A So this was about -And stand back from me, call me out at meetings; he was being told to do those things, according to what Art's told me. Q A That Mike Ben- -Mr. Bengelink was being nice about it, "I'm your friend, Art," that kind of stuff. But on the other hand, basically Mr. Bengelink and Mr. Stevens talked; is

my understanding from what he told me is it was a threat to

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get away from me.

And Mr. Stevens reported it to the City And that's where it went. Were these

Manager and to the police.

You mentioned some investors or something. people ever named by Art? No.

That's why if -- I assume those same people are working

in conjunction or working with whatever efforts there are in this community to remove me from whatever group is proactive in that area. Who are we talking -- I'm serious. Art Stevens. Yeah. And you said Mike made some reference to investors -Yeah; some of which are attorneys. All right. Did he say who the attorneys were? I think you should take Mike Bengelink talks to

Art did not ask, that I know of. that up with Art Stevens. I will. I'm just asking if he -MR. HOMIER:

Can I -- can I just interrupt? But I don't

suppose we can sit here all day and do this.

see what this has to do with anything that's going on in this case. I mean, maybe I'm wrong and missing the boat,

but I don't see how this relates to the removal issue, which is the issue that's going to be before the court. MR. WOTILA: Well, I don't -- I can't say I know.

I know the general rule of a deposition is if you ascertain

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information, perhaps not admissible, may lead to relevant evidence. I didn't -- I just asked what Mike Bengelink had And it's your witness --

to say about the Filkins campaign.

I'm sorry -- your client that has responded about this situation. Now, I don't know if this goes to motivation,

given this information, for the Mayor bringing the action against Mr. Blackburn, the information he heard; whether that information was correct or not and that was a motivating factor for his making the decision he made or not. I don't know. And I will say on the record this is And the Mayor

the first I ever heard anything like this. brought it up, so I'm doing a follow-up. MR. HOMIER:

Well, and I appreciate that.

And I'm

not -- I'm not looking to create any problems here except for we have set the deposition from 10:00 to 12:00. And an

hour of that, or 50 minutes of that, was taken up with reviewing documents. And now we're at almost 11:30. We

have at least on the schedule a half hour left and we have, I think, four other depositions today. MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: something else. These --

I would agree with that, Counsel. Wait a minute. Let me just say

These witnesses that were on our witness We talked about this

list is a preliminary witness list. with Judge Fagerman.

We don't know, probably, because this

is our first deposition, we've just started discovery, what

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a lot of these people may or may not say. MR. WOTILA: knows. Of course not. I'm asking what he

Those are fair questions.

What does he know, this So I acknowledge

person would testified to that's relevant. that. Let me just close this up.

You've linked Mr. Bengelink with being on Carla Filkins' campaign as a treasurer. a witness. Yes. Correct? And you've listed him as

Is that correct?

He would make the same observations other --

Now are you assuming whatever discussion that took place with Mr. Bengelink and Mr. Stevens, somehow involved me or anyone from our law firm? I don't know that. He said "lawyers." You've had a

long-standing position against me, so I would -- I would presume that. decision. But this is, again, not relevant to my

He also indicated that Todd Golnick, that he

would clear up whatever matters were with Todd Golnick. And -This is Mike Bengelink? Yeah. friend. Now, so you are assuming that whatever it was Mike Bengelink said to Mr. Stevens, somehow involved either me or our law firm or someone from our firm? I -- I would -- you know, consistent with your past, Roger, And he would help Art. He was there to help Art as a

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and what's happening, that would be a reasonable conclusion. Okay. But, again, I don't sit and dwell on this stuff. Art's issue, not mine. thought he should. This was

He took care of it the way he

He went either to the City Manager

and/or to the police, -Do you know if Art ever asked to clear that up, either with me, anyone else, our firm, about any involvement? you know. I don't know. Next question. Bill Rzepka. Why is Bill listed and what do Just if

you anticipate him testifying to? Mr. Rzepka is an associate with Mr. Blackburn and a friend, probably; he has coffee with him every single day, he's listened to him, I would assume, with other folks that have -- in coffee shops that listen to Mr. Blackburn criticize me very much and has for years. criticized me for years. But, again, he's

I think I -- I think I appointed I

him after he was critical of us in your attorney thing. don't have any vindictive feelings to Jim Blackburn.

I was

minding my own business after he came and moved on after he came to our meeting. It was just another day of him

criticizing me and, you know, it was not on my list to do anything in this matter until I got a phone call. So you anticipate Bill Rzepka has some information regarding

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Jim Blackburn being on Carla Filkins' committee? I think he's familiar with Jim enough to know what he was doing, -Okay. -- either in the committee or on his own committee spending money or the active management of the campaign. What do you mean, "on his own committee"? He's FOIAing things for election purposes, so I guess that would probably -- in my opinion, be worthy a filing a committee himself. And I don't believe that was done. But

if you're spending money to effect a committee, whether you're buying signs or buying FOIA's that you're distributing at city council meetings or using them in other ways. So you think Mr. Rzepka would have information regarding that? I know he has his information with what was going on. Okay. Same question, Gary Finstrom you've named as a

witness. Gary -What information do you think Sheriff Finstrom would have regarding Mr. Blackburn either serving on the committee or managing the campaign? One of their neighbors told me Gary is over there all the time, so -- during the summer. And they sit -- they live

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right across the street.

They're best friends, the four of Okay? So they are very Mr. Finstrom was

them, Mike, Carla, Gary and Gayla. close to them.

They know what's going on.

active in the campaign as well and -So you believe they have information. Do you have any

information that Gary Finstrom would say that Jim Blackburn served on the campaign committee? Consistent with Mike has said, we've put these people on because these are the closest people to Carla and Mike, and they're going to be questioned. I'm asking what specific information. I don't have any specific -Thank you. I don't speak to Gary Finstrom. anymore. Thank you. I was just asking what specific information you If it's that -He won't speak with me So you said --

have as to his anticipated testimony. I don't have any. Thank you. You don't.

You named them because they know

each other and he helped on Carla's campaign, so you think he may have information. Yes. And as to Gayla Finstrom? Gayla's a very nice person, and I just assume she would be present throughout this whole thing by Carla's side and Is that correct?

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walked in parades with her, you know.

It's -- after you

consider their friendship, I'm sure she has a lot of personal information and election information from Carla. You've named me. What specific information do you

anticipate I have regarding Jim Blackburn either serving on the committee or managing the campaign? You were -- I suppose your relationship with Mr. Blackburn. I recall him and you working together or being present and you are not my supporter and have caused great difficulty to my family and just you have obviously been working with Mr. -- Mrs. Filkins. I think you admitted you provided free

legal advice or counsel, so there's where you are. Let me back up. You were also meeting and drinking coffee with Mr. Blackburn and having other meetings, I presume, with regard to this election. So is there anything specific that you have information regarding -No. -- my knowledge of who was on the committee or who managed the campaign? Only that you've -- it's been brought to my attention you have consulted with Carla and her campaign. Okay. And regarding -- Mr. Charmoli is a reporter at the

newspaper?

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A Q

Yeah. And I know that he will get into -- authored -- was the reporter on a couple of news articles that appeared regarding the campaign and regarding the October 17th appearance of Ms. Filkins and Mr. Blackburn; correct?

A Q

That's a small part of it. All right. Now, what else and what other information do you

anticipate Mr. Charmoli has regarding this case? A He's written the articles that presented Mr. Blackburn as on the committee -- a committee member, active in the committee, because -- I believe what happened was -- I guess I should back up here, maybe, and I'll tell you how I got to Rick Charmoli because that whole week went on without any concerns whatsoever. 5:30. There was a contact to me at about

I was driving -- or riding in a car going to a Viking

football game in Buchanan, Michigan -- or Hamilton High School, we were playing Buchanan. And it was a call made

from one of my council members that there's a concern in the rank and file -Q Let me -- I'm going to through this trying to be orderly, as your counsel is concerned about time, and I understand. Does have to do with Rick Charmoli? A Q A Yeah. All right. Go ahead. He jotted me down a couple of laws

So I got Art's call.

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that were -- or one, maybe, one or two statutes that I should look at. me numbers. I didn't know what they were, he just gave

I looked them up on my cell phone and -- while

we were driving, and got to the stadium and went to work helping my buddy do the announcing. And when I thought

about it and on the way home I had a 45-minute phone call with Rick Charmoli about why in the world he would put in the paper that Jim Blackburn is a committee member twice in the article. Can you point to the article where he mentioned committee members? Yeah. "He's a member of the committee" probably is going to Let's see.

be the representation.

(Witness reviews document) Okay. "During the public" -- this is the first line of the

article, which I believe was on the -18th of October. Okay. I didn't print it out until the 1st.

I understand. "During the public comments portion of the Cadillac city council meeting Monday, Carla Filkins and a member of her campaign" -There's one. Well, you just said -- let me be clear. You just juxtaposed

"committee member" with the phrase, "member of her

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campaign."

So what you're reading says what?

"Member of her campaign." All right. What does that mean to you? To me, it means he's a supporter. different. specific. To you it means something

But what I'm asking you is very specific -- very You said explicitly that Mr. Charmoli stated

twice that Mr. Barnett (sic) was a member of her committee. All right. Now, -That I -- it's not stated; he

This is in the article; yes. wrote it. All right.

Now, reading the article that you're referring

to does not use the word "committee," does it? It implies committee, "a member of her campaign." Mr. Barnett, it does not use the word "committee," does it? I don't know. I'll have to read the rest of it.

Why don't you read the article? (Witness reviews document) Okay. The other part in the article, it indicates "who is

part of Filkins campaign." Thank you. "Part of." -- does not use the word committee, does it, Mr. Barnett? No. Thank you. Now, you've talked about a discussion you had The article --

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with Mr. Charmoli. Yeah. Which is what my question went to. You -- I'm a little Did you talk to

vague, but you said you read this article. him before reading the article?

Or after the article?

The article came out on Tuesday, -Thank you. -- so I had obviously read it, put it away; done issue. Gone. Okay. Okay? Thanks. Now, -MR. HOMIER: We -- before we move on, are we going Just another day in the office for me.

to mark that as an exhibit? MR. WOTILA: I can identify it. I've got -- it's

also attached to the pleadings, but -MR. HOMIER: THE WITNESS: Yeah; just some -That came from our pleadings. I

just pulled that out last night. MR. WOTILA: That's fine. I have a copy that I

can actually mark, I believe, here. MR. HOMIER: record's clear what -MR. WOTILA: I believe this (indicating) is the You can erase that if you Yeah; I just want to make sure the

same copy and she can mark it.

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want.

It's got a number "25" on it, which is my marking

which means nothing; it was just in order of all the documents I have here. Thank you. (Deposition Exhibit 1 marked) All right. So we've established you had some phone calls. Can you mark that as 1, please, Ann?

We've established that there was some form of a discussion with you and Mr. Stevens regarding some statutes and that you've read this article. Yeah. Is that right?

And a member of our rank and file was bringing that

to his attention. All right. So someone from the City brought to his Which of the

attention a law, or the newspaper article? two? I'm confused. I believe the law.

Don't know.

So what happens next? What happens next, I attend the football game, work on it. On the way back I was curious and called Rick Charmoli, who was working the sports desk waiting for scores to come in. And our game got over early for one reason or another and I chatted with him for 45 minutes. And, well -- my friend,

Todd Golnick, drove and he's also -- did the game that night, I believe. So Mr. Charmoli, as I understand, would testify regarding his writing of the article or articles -- I've referred to

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one at this point -- any discussions that he may have had with Mr. Barnett (sic) or Carla Filkins or other people on the campaign and what information he was given. moving on, essentially why he's -You're going to have to repeat that. I'm sorry. I was Is that --

thinking of something else that he did. The question I'd asked you was that -- you had named Mr. Charmoli, trying to ask what information you anticipate he'd testify to, and to summarize because I believe your counsel would like to move on, you anticipate he would testify to the article or articles he wrote in the newspaper, any conversations he had with Ms. Filkins, Mr. Filkins, Mr. Barnett (sic) or any person involved in the Filkins campaign? No. That would be what the testimony would go to? No. It's just -- he was -- after the city council meeting,

Mr. Blackburn presented himself at the "Cadillac News." All right. And he had discussions with Mr. Charmoli?

That's exactly right. And it's that discussion, that information, you anticipate Mr. Charmoli would testify to? He would testify that -- yeah; what happened in that interaction. All right.

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Why there's a citizen or person or member of a campaign coming to the "Cadillac News" after a city council meeting when the business is closed.

All right.

Marcus is the city manager of the City of I take it you -- he's

Cadillac; number 11 on your list.

been listed because he has information from talking to Mr. Blackburn and some e-mails, et cetera; is that right? A Q That would be it, probably. Do you know if he has any specific information regarding any conversation with Mr. Blackburn regarding Mr. Blackburn actually sitting on the committee or managing Carla Filkins' campaign? A Q A Yeah. Okay. And what would that be, other than --

It's hearsay, but I -- you know, you want to get it from Marcus directly? We're skipping over a bunch of things that

happened before the Wednesday in which he got the -Q I'm doing that deliberately because I have a lot to go through here. And I'm just trying to get a sense of why So I'll come back to Mr. Peccia You've listed Doug Mellema,

these people are called.

and Mr. Stevens, Mr. Mellema.

who is both on the city council and a neighbor of Jim Blackburn's. Do you have any information that he ever had a

conversation with Mr. Blackburn, where Mr. Blackburn would have stated he -- Blackburn -- was a member of Carla

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Filkins' committee? I don't know that either one of them has spoken to Jim. Thanks, and I'll move on. I don't know that. Thank you. John Horrigan is listed.

John Horrigan was approached by someone to manage her campaign; to be the manager. Okay. Do you know who he was approached by? That's why he's on there. I haven't bothered

No, I don't. him

and other things, but he's, But a lot of our

unfortunately, been dragged into this.

mutual friends have been, and they're going to -- you know, this is painful. So he would be called because someone apparently approached him regarding -- you just used the word being a "manager" of her campaign, or manage it? He's helped -I'm just asking. -- Gordon Baas and they did a nice job -- with Bill Rzepka, Maynard Thompson -- against me before. He's a leader in our

community and a nice fellow and they asked him to manage her campaign and he declined. That's what I know. So there was

a search committee, more political activity which obviously bothers -- if you read the letter from the fire department, our rank and staff who are uncomfortable with having Mr.

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Blackburn continue. Let me be clear. You mentioned a search committee. Who was

the search committee -I don't know. -- for Carla Filkins? That's what we're going to find out. All right. committee. Well -- but you used the word "search" Where did that come from?

I'm presuming that there was a search committee for the candidate. I apologize; I'm a little off on this, but there

was probably a search committee for a candidate, too. Do you have any knowledge of anybody on a search committee -- there actually being a search committee? No. All right. Not personal. around and -Could I do this, to speed this up -- and I'm not -- I'm sure in your eyes I'm being rude; I'm not trying to be rude. I ask a question, could you either testify as to personal knowledge -Yeah. -- and not just talk about rumors, which -- a rumor here, a rumor there. Or, if you have information that is If I recall some rumors of just people asking

secondhand, that is a rumor or perhaps someone else told

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you, just clarify that so I know if it's from your knowledge, -Right. -- or if it's secondhand or a rumor. Sure. Because I'm just trying to be clear. So Mr. Horrigan may Is that fair enough?

have some information regarding being approached to manage Carla Filkins' campaign; is that fair? Yeah. I think he also worked on Gary Finstrom's campaign.

As I recall he was on that one, as well. All right. So he is extremely politically active and a good person to have run your campaign. And as to a comment about Carla Filkins having a search committee, would it be fair that that's not anything you have any knowledge of, such a committee? MR. HOMIER: Can -- let's clarify. Because I

don't believe he testified that Carla had a search committee; he testified that he thought there may have been a candidate search committee. MR. WOTILA: Let me ask.

Do you have any knowledge of Carla Filkins having a search committee? I mean, just for her manager. She was -- someone on her I

behalf was searching for a campaign manager for her.

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also -- I -Go ahead. I don't know if there's a candidate search committee. I had

heard through rumors that there was, and I couldn't tell you who said that or when. all for elections. And, you know, this is America; I'm

This is why I'm in there is to have

elections, have good debate and to run the city in the way the citizens want. So it's America, anyone can run. It's

not something I focused on and none of this was in my head when I made my decision to remove him. All right. Mel Hurley. Who is Mel Hurley? Why is Mel --

what do you anticipate Mel Hurley would testify to? She's Carla friend and had made statements in the community that she's involved in the election. Anything more than that? Until we find out, I'll get to that. Anything -- no. Just, So that's --

I think, that she was a Carla supporter and meeting -- she was at meetings. Okay. David Coffey, number 16. Again, anything specific

you anticipate he will testify to that -- out of your knowledge or is it simply that he was involved in her campaign and you will search for information from him? That's an odd one. He -- part of the campaign, in my

opinion, of Carla's, was to take out Mr. Stevens; in other words, have him not elected. That was obvious from the

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radio interview and the information expressed there. Apparently Mr. Blackburn and Mr. Coffey had both written letters around the same time, or e-mails, regarding Mr. Stevens' eligibility or tax records or where he lives, and it was sent to the media, at least Mr. Blackburn's were, apparently, according to Art. questions. And Mr. Coffey had the same

So I presumed that they're tag-teaming or

hanging out together or just simply have the same question at the same time, probably from the coffee shop, I'm guessing. And Evan Smith seemed to be riding on the And he's from

coattails of Carla, from what I could see. her circle of friends, so there you go. Okay. Now, let me go back.

You have -- let me go through Michael Filkins, Mike Bengelink,

these people specifically.

Bill Rzepka, Gary Finstrom, Gayla Finstrom, myself, Rick Charmoli -- forget Rick; I'll leave him out -- John Horrigan, Mel Hurley, Dave Coffey, Evan Smith. Are those

all people that you believe were supporters of Carla Filkins? I don't know about Dave Coffey; I don't know about John Horrigan. they were. I don't know -- I guess the rest I would presume I don't hold anything against people that

supported Carla. Good. The -- are those people that you consider to be on

her campaign committee?

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That's why they're on the list is we need to ask questions. And I think the best way to do that is through depositions and so forth. I would guess that some of them are on the

committee, because they're -- Jim's car was spotted there with big groups meeting. I would presume he was. But,

again, it didn't enter into my thought process whatsoever about those -- who's on the committee at that point; other then this guy had a front page article, he's telling everybody he's on a -- he's a member of the committee, and he waited all week; no retraction. Q Excuse me. Could you point out the front page article? Is there another article that Mr. I mean,

You've shown one article.

Blackburn stated he was a member of the committee? that's what you stated, so I'm just asking. A Okay.

You can mince words or whatever it's called all you'd It says here, it

like, but the article says what it says. says he's a -Q Is there an article. -- thank you. own. A

It will stand on its

-- campaign member, working with the committee. What does that mean?

I wish I could answer your questions.

But as you know, as a

licensed attorney, I'm not in a position to answer your questions unless your counsel wants me to. So there's no

newspaper article that specifically uses the word

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"committee"; is that correct? I don't know if there are other articles. The one article I

read gave me the distinct impression he's a committee member. I didn't care two hill of beans until anything

about that other than when I got a call Friday, I got a concern. All right. Now, the --

That was my --- witness list also lists -- and I know this is preliminary, so I just want to clarify. member of the city fire department." Cadillac Police Department." It lists "any

"Any member of the

"Any person subject to Civil Now, I

Service Commission and any employee of the City." again, preface this: You're an attorney.

I respect your You've

attorney very much, but that's rather broad.

literally listed any or every employee of the City of Cadillac as a potential witness. To your knowledge at this

point is there any specific employee of the City of Cadillac, other than the specific names you've given, such as Marcus, that you are looking to call at trial in this matter? I'm not looking to call anyone. into trial on this matter. responsibility here. MR. HOMIER: Can we take a break? And I'm not looking to go

Someone needs to take some

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(Off the record interruption) MR. WOTILA: Good.

(Off the record) Quick question, Mr. Barnett. There's an expert witness Are you aware of any --

list, but no individual is named.

at this point sitting here, any expert that would be called in your behalf, if you're aware at this point? I'm not aware. attorney, -I understand that. -- not me. him. And the expert witness list was also prepared by The last stuff here is put together by the

I think he's just preserving the right. I'm just trying to sort through Would you -- certainly, and I'll

I fully understand that. what we have and don't.

make the request of you and of your counsel, if at any point a specific expert is going to be identified that that be done well before trial? MR. HOMIER: Service Commission Act? MR. WOTILA: she is an expert. I think every legislator thinks he or Do you know any experts in the Civil

We might call the entire legislature. Sorry. That -- for the record,

But other than that; no.

that was sarcasm, but humor. As to the earlier question, any employee of the city, et cetera, I acknowledge, Mr. Barnett, that certainly this was

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prepared as a preliminary list.

But I'm just asking you

sitting here at this point if there is any specific employee of the city -- and I'm referring to -Yes. -- paragraphs 18, 19 and 20, that you anticipate might -- or there's some likelihood would be called in this regard? I don't know that they'll be called. Well, I -I don't know. This is discovery. Let me think. -- of folks that we would focus on, if there's a name of someone specifically. It's interesting because at the time I filed this, I didn't know the name of the person, and it wasn't relevant. issue was it was brought forward by a City employee. Okay. I'll leave it at that for the moment. And I don't The All I'm trying to do is get names --

want to -It didn't go into --- beat this dead horse. -- my decision who it was. So let me be clear. At the time -- and, I'm going to get to At the time that you filed a

that now, believe it or not.

Notice removing Mr. Blackburn, you had some information that there was some employee of the city that had a concern but

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you didn't have a specific name at that time. That's true. Okay. Thank you.

Is that --

Let me move forward, because I You mentioned a radio show. During the course of the

acknowledge moving slowly.

I'll move through this quickly.

campaign, I believe sometime in October, you appeared on a radio show in Traverse City. Yes, I did. All right. Is that correct?

It was on the 12th of October, in the morning. And the hosts of that shows were whom?

Three hosts; Omelette, Finster, and Rick Coates. Now, at -- and during this radio show, this was -- your appearance was in relation to being -- it was in relation to the mayoral campaign; is that right? That was what I threw out there, and they had invited Carla, my understanding was, the previous day as well. expected her to be there. I fully

So the answer is "yes."

Now, after you were on that show, a few days later at the October 17th city council member -- city council meeting; I'm sorry -- Carla Filkins and Mr. Blackburn both appeared at that council meeting and addressed that question; your being on the radio show, what was said; they criticized you. That's kind of a nutshell, but is that right? that time period we're talking about? They appeared on the 17th? Yes. It was within

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A Q

Yeah. And a good part of the -- their presentation, or what they said at council, had to do with your appearance on the radio show on October 12th?

Their statements were taped. the answer is yes.

They speak for themselves, and

Okay.

On that radio show you made a reference to or mention

of uncovering or revealing corruption; is that right, if you recall? A No. I wouldn't use that. I said there was soft corruption That's what I would

where things didn't look right. classify as soft corruption.

It has nothing to do with

Carla Filkins, Jim Blackburn or anything to do with the election. Q So, again, a tape is available of the radio show as well; it will speak for itself. corruption; correct? A That's how the public perceived it. It was after someone But you've made some mention of

called up and praised me; indicated I should run for president and a few other things that just -- that's the kind of thing I hear in the community quite often. And

that's what I hear from citizens is that I've cleaned up corruption. And I don't like to say it like that, but there

were some fishy things that happened at the city and they're not happening any more.

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All right.

You also, in that -- at the radio show, there

was a time when one of the people who was on the air used the word "sleaze" or "sleazy" in relation to Carla Filkins; is that right? A Omlette said, as I recall, and it was misquoted in the paper and has been misquoted by Mr. Blackburn, that they used -"they called her sleazy." did. Guess what? That's not what they

He said her activities were sleazy, in passing, and

then moved on to another subject. Q A I'm asking you was it said and again -You misquoted the word or misphrased it or put it in the wrong context -Q A I did? Or --

It sure sounds like you did, because the word was not -- she is not sleazy; her activities.

Could you read back -- let me stop you. my question, Ann, please? REPORTER: MR. WOTILA: see what I asked.

Could you read back

Or play it back?

Was it just the last one? Yeah; about where I use the word and

(Playback of previous question) A Q Okay. I apologize. That -I just want to be

Well, it will appear on the record. clear.

Okay.

Are we on the record?

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Until Ann let's us know. REPORTER: Yeah.

All right.

So there was some use of the word sleaze or

sleazy; is that correct? A In a very fast fashion, "We're going to hear about all her sleazy activities she's been up to," I think is how they said it. Q All right. And, finally, there was an attempt, while on the Is that right?

air, to make a phone call to Ms. Filkins. A Q A Yeah. And where did they get her phone number?

I brought with me campaign literature so they would see, hey, here's Carla's campaign literature. I gave them the

phone number, I think, the day before; please call her, so that she was invited, too. And I think they said they sent

a FaceBook message to her, and I believe they said they called her, and no response. minutes with them. So I showed up, I have five

As I got rushed into the door, "Hi, And, you know, "How's the campaign

guys, how you doing?" going?" "Okay."

And, you know, I did tell them I was

removed from the radio by the radio station after her request for equal time. They thought that was -- I assume I never said

that's what they were referring to as sleazy. that word or that her activities were. Q

I didn't -- I didn't say you said anything, Mr. Barnett; I

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asked you.

Now, when -- so while on the air there was an

attempt to phone her; is that correct? Yes. That was not my doing. I had no control over this. You know, they're a I

appeared, answered their questions.

comedy act, an entertainment team, and they're popular with some people and apparently not others. and it's tongue-and-cheek mostly anyway. Did you know that she was working at the hospital at the time you attempted to make -- they attempted to make the phone call? I have no idea where Carla is at any time, other than if I see her or see her car. You're aware she works at the hospital, aren't you, sir? I'm aware she's employed at the hospital but she works in Grayling and other places. I don't know where she is. I And you go on there,

don't know where she was that morning. Okay. Fine. So after --

I don't know that she was working. All right. So after your appearance on the show, we move to And Ms. Filkins

the 17th at the city council meeting.

presents herself -- and I'm summarizing, but is critical of your appearance on the radio show. Oh, yeah. And, as you said, the tape of that will speak for itself. Mr. Blackburn then appeared as well; is that right? Is that right?

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A Q

Yes; both speaking at the wrong time in the meeting. And Mr. Blackburn was quite critical of you; is that a fair summary?

He always is, and that was not a surprise.

This was

obviously a political ploy in the highjacking of our council meeting. Q A Q A Q A I'm sorry -- "highjacking"? Yeah. Okay. He highjacked your council meeting? They took it over.

Absolutely.

They came in and took over your council meeting? Yeah; they did. That's a public comment that's supposed to

be for items on the agenda, and neither one respected that. It was disrespectful, out of line and to use that forum in that manner for a political ploy it was, I thought, not a good use of their efforts. Q You, then, have testified that it was at that time that you concluded that he was on her committee? A Q No. Okay. What did you conclude from the two of them being

there and their presentation? A Well, they're working together in concert and then there was a coordinated effort to appear and to speak one after another. And these are the two people that ended up coming

out of their group.

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All right.

After that meeting, did you have any discussion

with -- and I'm talking within, let's say, 48 hours, be it that evening or 48 hours, with Ms. Filkins? A Q A Q No. With Mr. Blackburn? No. Did you inquire of them, or any of the people on that witness list, other than Rick Charmoli, what Mr. Blackburn's role was in her campaign? A Q No. You have already testified that you then read from Exhibit 1, and I believe that is the October 18th newspaper article by Mr. Charmoli, some references you read in that article about Mr. Blackburn's involvement in her campaign. using the word "involvement"; correct? reference to -A Well, it says, "a member of her campaign" and whatever else it said. Q A Q A Q Okay. But I read that as being on the committee -There was a I'm

I --

-- and being a campaign member. That's how you read that? That's how I read it. All right. And you then -- okay. With that information, at

this point now, you've had information that he has been at her house on at least three occasions, you had --

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A Q A Q

And I told you, that had nothing to do with my decision -Thank you. -- to remove him. Then I'll ignore that. That had nothing to with it. The

decision to remove him, then, I take it, was the appearance that took place at city council with Ms. Filkins and Mr. Blackburn, and the newspaper article? A Q No. All right. else -A His behavior after the meeting to go above and beyond, to come over to the "Cadillac News" to what I would presume "massage" the journalist to make sure the article says what it said in his eyes, and to -- you know, here's a closed business at night. I don't know how he got in, but he's This The next thing, what was the decision -- what Those two things?

waiting for Mr. Charmoli when they get over there. is -Q So we have -- we have three things.

We have the appearance

at the council meeting by Mr. Blackburn -A Q Yeah. -- and Ms. Filkins; the article -- the fact that Mr. Blackburn talked in some way -- and you're outlining how it happened with the information you have -- at the newspaper that night; and then the ultimate article that appeared on the 18th. You had that information; correct?

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A Q

Yeah. And that is was led you to move forward with your October 24th letter removing Mr. Blackburn?

A Q A

His statements to Rick Charmoli also were important. Statements to Mr. Charmoli. That he made over at the "Cadillac News", taking a special trip there, going beyond -- going above and beyond what he had already done at the meeting and attended that and I assume that surprised the character at the -- the journalist, the reporter at the -- rather reporter at the "Cadillac News"; "What are you doing here?" him what he was doing there. And he asked

Q A

Okay. "I'm working with the campaign"; same thing he told Marcus the next Wednesday.

Okay.

Well, let's walk through that.

Now, that is the

17th, which was a Monday; correct? A Q Yes. And you've outlined three things we've walked through; the 17th council meeting, the contact Mr. Blackburn had with Mr. Charmoli and discussion that evening; -A Q A Q Yeah. -- and the newspaper article; correct? Yup. You, then, --

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And my discussion with him, by the way, his bottom line was that he was a committee member. He stated more than once, I

believe, to Rick, that he was working with the committee. So Rick Charmoli, another educated person, felt he was on the committee. Q Let's be specific about that because, to be blunt, I've also talked to Mr. Charmoli. Is your representation that Mr.

Blackburn used the word "committee" to Mr. Charmoli? A He said he's working with the committee; yes -- the committee, working with. Q And so, to be very clear, that night when talking to Mr. Charmoli, it is your testimony that Mr. Charmoli has told you or will testify that Mr. Blackburn used the word "committee"? A Q Absolutely. All right. Now, you then, on October 24th, prepared a

Mayor's Notice of Removal of Civil Service Commission; correct? A Q A Yes. Did you prepare that? Or Mr. Peccia prepare that?

It's like "Peccia, you betcha," Peccia (pronouncing), just for your future reference and just to help you with the pronunciation, it's Peccia (pronouncing), like "you betcha."

Q A

Did you prepare that document? No.

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All right.

It's typed up.

Who actually prepared and typed

the document? A It's a legal document, and it was prepared by -- to the best of my knowledge, Mike Homier. Q Okay. Just -- and can I mark that as Number 2, please? MR. HOMIER: Okay.

(Deposition Exhibit 2 marked) Q So sometime between the 17th and 24th, you contacted counsel. I'm not asking what you discussed. I believe

that's privileged. A Council? Counsel? MR. HOMIER: right? A Q A Q A Q I contacted counsel? C-o-u-n-s-e-l, not -c-i-l; your attorney is also -You skipped over this -I haven't skipped anything. -- Saturday. I asked you, some time between October 17th and October 24th, you contacted legal counsel? A Yes; I did. I contacted him on the Saturday after viewing Attorney I think is what he means;

or seeing part of a T.V. ad that was plastered all over northern Michigan on cable T.V. featuring (unintelligible), Mr. Blackburn pictured prominently in the middle of the T.V. ad on every cable station, probably, out there, and on high

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repetition.

There's our Civil Service Commission member,

standing with the Filkins. So there was a -- did you call Ms. Filkins at any time about that ad or anything like that, or where the picture came from? You know, when people are possibly committing a high court misdemeanor, I'm probably not going to get involved or -- I probably should have called the police is what I should have. But did I call her? No. I don't feel I wanted to be

a witness anymore than I already was. Well, let's back up with the last statement, Mr. Barnett. You are accusing Mr. Blackburn of having committed a high court misdemeanor? I did not. I read what I've read and I see that it is

incumbent upon the appointing board to not allow someone to remain on a board or the appointing authority to not allow someone who is serving on a committee or taking an active management. And by the time I saw that video and the other

three things we've mentioned, and knowing that our rank and file are complaining or bringing this to our attention, I made a decision myself, after conferring with counsel, and with -Let's talk about that, because certainly you just brought up the point of Mr. Blackburn possibly committing a high court misdemeanor.

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A Q A Q A Q A Q

I'm not looking at that in that regard. Let me -- I'm asking the question. I would have taken that -You brought it up. -- to the police if I thought that -You brought it up. -- was the way to handle it. I don't know what you would have done, Mr. Barnett. But you

brought up the point that he may have committed a high court misdemeanor. A Q A No -- well, I -- that's true. Let me --- worry about getting myself involved in what is a police matter, -Q A Q A Q A Let me ask you about that. -- and what could have or should have been -Did you at any --- a police matter. Back up. We're talking over, so I'm sorry, Ann. But I --

I was -- if I could finish my answers it probably would be a little more clean for a record here, Mr. McCur- -- Mr. Wotila; sorry.

Q A Q

Did you finish? It wasn't an answer; I was just explaining the process here. Why did you bring up commitment of a high court misdemeanor?

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You're now saying as of that Saturday, you realized that he or think that he may have committed a high court misdemeanor. All these reasons together start adding up, that the guy is -- newspaper article, front page; no retraction asked all week. Wouldn't you ask for a retraction? "Hey, don't put

that" -- "you've got to clear this up; I'm not on the campaign," "I'm not on the committee," "Please put that in the paper"? Never happened all week. That's why I called

Rick Charmoli, "Why in the world would you put this on here?" "Did he seek a retraction?" You know, I can't just

call Jim Blackburn up and talk to him. Why not? Because something's happened with our relationship. Last

time you and him were together, he was giving me the "Heil Hitler" sign, walking out of the city council. That I was with him? This is a person that I would be calling and asking questions? No.

I'm sorry -- I really don't understand what you're talking about. Yes. When was that? This was in the middle of the Jeff Hawke when the two of you were attending together, and you were standing right next to I was with him when he gave you a Nazi salute?

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him and as I was driving out of the parking lot. And I was standing there, and he gave you a Nazi salute? Whatever this (indicating) means. And this is the Jeff Hawke matter? It was after the tape was revealed and a couple citizens came that night. And I believe it was that night, but I did

not resign, and you were present, sitting next to him that night and walked out with him. The two of you were walking

out, so I believe you're a witness to that, if you would like to acknowledge that. I won't acknowledge that, and I don't know what you're talking about, though I do know about the Jeff Hawke matter and I did attend one city council meeting to observe. agree with you there. My point is this, Roger: I'm not -- this guy is hostile I

towards me, and what good is it to call him up and talk to him about it? I had discussions with Marcus about how to

handle this and -All right. Let's go to that.

-- the decision was made to -- I made a decision after talking with both them. My decision -- this is what I felt

was appropriate and the way to handle this, -Well, --- to maintain the integrity of our Civil Service Commission.

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Now, let me go to that. Saturday.

You made that decision, then, that

Monday was the 17th, --

A Q A

No. I'm sorry? I talked with Mike for two minutes on Saturday and basically let him know what the concern was and I was to get back with him Monday and I did.

All right.

So by Saturday, without going into -- I don't

want you to go into what you talked with your legal counsel about. A Q I believe that's privileged, but --

I haven't. But you did make contact -- legal contact. Saturday, talk to Marcus Peccia? You did, by

No; that was Mike Homier on Saturday, I dealt with the communications with -- I spoke to Mike as to -- well, I'm not going to get into it, but I had a conversation with the attorney and with Marcus and I made --

Q A Q A

When did you talk to Marcus? During the day; sometime Monday, probably. All right. I was catching him up on what happened; that there was a notification or complaint or whatever you want to call it, awareness brought forward to me that there's a concern with our -- with the people that Jim serves.

All right.

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MR. WOTILA:

Let me mark this as Exhibit -- 3, I

This is the Section 38.504, which is attached to I want to

your pleadings on the Civil Service Commission. ask the witness about that. (Deposition Exhibit 3 marked) Can you repeat what it is?

This is -- I'm going to hand it to you; I just want to get it marked, that is attached to the pleadings, I believe, and is part of the Civil Service Act, which is -- pertains to the case. MR. HOMIER: Thank you.

What's marked as Exhibit 3 is a document that's also contained in the pleadings, part of the Civil Service Act. There are highlights there that did not appear -- that are my highlights. I want to ask you a question about that

after you have a chance to look at that briefly. (Witness reviews exhibit) This is -- I didn't consider number 4, which is 504. looked at 3 and 16, I believe, 503. Okay. This, I think, was included in the lawsuit, I believe it was the -Well, let's be clear for the record, -Let me read it first while you -MR. WOTILA: Then I'll mark 503 that he's I didn't -I

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mentioned as the next exhibit, since we'll ask questions about both. (Deposition Exhibit 4 marked) This was not what I was proceeding on. the case. It -It is included in

Well, I'll ask a question about it. Good cause is where we're -- probably why it's placed in the -I'll get to a couple questions, I just want to identify what they are. Exhibit 3 is a section of the Act in question,

and was attached to, I believe, the complaint filed, Section 38.504. Exhibit 4 is Section 38.503. Now, let me go

through that a minute.

The section I've handed you, Exhibit

3, is part of the law that you've referenced; is that correct? It's referenced. And that section -- could I just see it a minute, and I'll try and take you to the exact language. We're talking about

a situation where a commissioner of the Civil Service Commission, such as Jim Blackburn, a procedure to remove that person. Right. Where 504 is. And there's language that says, "The mayor or Is that correct?

principal executive officer shall at any time remove any commission for:" and it gives a series of reasons. Is that

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correct? As I'm not reading it right now it says what it says, sir. And if that's what you say it says and it shows up on the statute, then your answer would be, from me, yes. Who is the principal executive officer of the City of Cadillac? That's a good question. Thank you. Who is it?

I believe that would probably be argued by -- it could be argued that would be the city manager, since the mayor is already laid out specifically and -So that might -That's a gray area. All right. The language of that statute refers, in the

alternative, to what appears to be two people; is that correct? Yes. And it appears to -- it does say -Well, not necessarily. It does say -The mayor could also be the executive principal -- principal executive officer. I'm the mayor. area. So the statute itself states specifically "the mayor or I'm an elected officer, so to speak, and

So I run the meetings, so that's a gray

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principal executive officer"; is that correct? Yeah. It could be, like, a -- I assume a supervisor or

other similar thing to the mayor, or it could be a city manager. Reading the statute, it would appear that those are two separate, distinct people -I don't agree. -- by using "or"; is that right? I don't agree. I think that -- I think our pleadings could

have identified me as the principal officer. MR. HOMIER: I'm going to object to that, inasmuch

as your opinion of what it may or may not say doesn't really matter. MR. WOTILA: Thank you. It's not the first time

my opinion doesn't matter, so I'm used to that. MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: As to the law I will say. Yes. Well, anyways --

It speaks for itself.

You would -- and you mentioned, Mr. Barnett, that one interpretation of that could be that the principal executive officer would be the city manager? correct? Yeah; yeah. It's arguable; yeah. You've said that;

Did you ever discuss with Mr. Peccia the idea that he should consider to be the one to bring any notice, such as you

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filed on October 24th, to Jim Blackburn? I did have a discussion because "mayor" was specifically in the statute; it left no legal room for someone later to complain that there would be -- is the city manager the principal executive officer, or was that the mayor? So you had a specific discussion with Mr. Peccia -I don't know. -- regarding whether he was the principal chief -- I'm sorry -- what is the language here? -- the -I don't know that I had one --- principal executive officer? I don't know if I had one with him or it was Mike. Mike discussing this with me. Did you ever have a discussion with Marcus as to whether he would be the appropriate person under the statute, or a appropriate person under the statute, to make the decision on moving forward? Yeah; I probably think -- I think we had a discussion and there was no request by me to have him do anything at all. And on this kind of issue, I have broad shoulders; I know what the pushback is on this kind of thing. I knew this was What I I recall

going to hurt my campaign; that was all irrelevant. did was I thought was the right thing to do. a discussion with Marcus?

And did I have

Probably about that, and I'm the

person that is in charge of appointing Jim, as far as I

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know, with the consensus of the Board. him, that's why he's here now and --

I think I appointed

Well, let me ask about the discussion that you would have had. I'm trying to take this a step at a time.

Yeah; I don't recall the specifics of the discussion, other than I know it came up and I made no request to have him do it. I think --

Now, let me go to that. I'm still talking. Well, you certainly do. Thank you. So go ahead and I will listen.

I spoke with him about it and I think he

explained to me as well it could be either one of us. So your recollection now is that you spoke with Marcus, the city manager, and that he came of the opinion that it could be either one of you to file this action? I don't know if he did or if our city attorney did, but the discussion -You just said that, so -Yeah. I don't know where he got that from, but there was a

discussion and I don't know if -- I guess -- I would -- if you give me a second to think here, I believe that we did have a discussion about who could sign it. And I wasn't

going to -- this was my decision and I'm not going to have someone else take it and hide from my decision. was to remove him. My decision

I felt it was valid at the time, it was

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protecting our workers and I wasn't -- there was no consideration in my mind to put Marcus Peccia on the paper; I was doing this. Not Marcus Peccia.

Now, you have testified earlier that up until and through the time of your October 24th removal letter, which we will get to, you had not had any specific name of any city employee who had made a complaint. That's correct. You had heard through other individuals that there was a person or persons that had some concern? I heard specifically from Art Stevens, riding to a football game, minding my own business, on the 21st of October. Right. Thank you. Now, let me kind of walk through this.

You have an opponent who has addressed you and criticized you, Carla Filkins, on the 17th at a city council meeting; correct? Yes. You have Mr. Blackburn, who you characterize -- however we characterize it, who clearly came in support of Ms. Filkins and also criticized you in relation to the mayoral campaign; is that correct? Among other things. yes. And you make the decision that you should file this removal as opposed to the city manager; is that correct? Whatever he said is what he said, but,

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You skipped over the fact that he went to the "Cadillac News" and identified himself in such a way that --

No; I'm not skipping over anything. that. record.

We've been through

I will acknowledge everything you've said on the

A Q

Okay.

But that doesn't go back --

Given all the information that had been gleaned at that point, you made the decision to file, rather than the city manager?

The city manager left it up to me.

As far as I could tell He was not

he was going to let me make this decision.

volunteering to sign it; let's put it that way. Q He wasn't volunteering to sign it. Was there any discussion

at that point regarding whether your view might be tainted or given that this was the candidate running against you for office? A I'm not sup- -MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: A No. There's no -- no. Discussion with whom? With Marcus. I was supporting my employee that's

made a complaint, and our system that's supposed to have integrity. And obviously from the letter written from the

fire department, they have great concerns for him sitting to this date. Q Let's talk about your decision on that -- apparently Monday,

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or certainly by the 24th, and you saw and felt there was no indication of you being, in some way, possibly biased because this involved the candidate running against you for mayor? I'm not the messenger that brought this to me. didn't have this at all on my radar. As I said, I

I was minding my own That

business, going to a football game, and I got a call. led me to -You explained that, and we can go through that. I'm supporting -What I'm saying is you saw --- our employees, period. Okay.

You saw no sense -- and so your answer is "no," you

didn't see any possible appearance of conflict or any possible bias on your part because it was Carla Filkins running against you, as opposed to somebody who was not involved in -Yeah; yeah. -- a political campaign against you? That's correct. Right? I did not, and I was extremely neutral about it. In fact,

the act I took I knew was going to hurt me, and it could cost me the election. I don't know that -Okay? So I didn't have a --

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-- taint that I was somehow biased. before myself here.

Okay?

I put the city

Now, you filed that on the 24th. to --

And "that," I'm referring

A Q A

I signed it on the 24th. I'm sorry. I stand corrected. A phone call was made to Mr.

It was mailed on the 25th.

Blackburn on that date and you'll probably hear about that from Mr. Peccia. But that's post-filing. I made my

decision, I feel I made the right one, and I think handling this in a civil fashion was where I was most comfortable -Q A Q A Q Do you have the other --- as opposed to calling the police on him. As opposed to calling the police on -Well, it's -You've brought that up twice without a question, so let me ask you about that. A Q It's a -Didn't you make statements, before the 31st of October, outside of city council that -- to the effect that, in your opinion, Jim had violated the criminal law? MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: understand. I'm sorry -I'll repeat it. Yeah -- no. I'm sorry --

I'm sorry -- I didn't

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Q A

Let me back up. I did not say that. I said -Well, wait -- wait.

MR. HOMIER: A Go ahead. MR. WOTILA:

Yeah; I just -- it may have been

unclear, and that's very fair, Counsel; I agree with you. Q By or before October 31st, did you make statements to the effect that Jim did -A Q A No. -- or may have violated the criminal -"May have," but I would -- I tempered those to the fact that this is not a criminal matter. Q A All right. Now, --

It's a civil matter. MR. HOMIER: This is -- I just want to be clear.

This is prior to October 31st of 2011? MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: Yes. And did you say where these

statements were made, or anywhere? MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: time. MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: Yup; I'm sorry. I just want to -That's where I'm following. Okay. I'm sorry.

I'm trying to ask one question at a

And that's fair, Counsel; I have no

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problem.

We should be clear.

Ann, could you read back my

question as we walk through this so I'm clear? (Playback of previous question) (Off the record) All right. Next question. So prior to or before October

31, 2011, you made statements to the effect that Jim may have violated the criminal law in relation to the statute? No. I talked to Rick Charmoli that night, on Friday night

and basically I just told him it was very serious; I had to have a very serious conversation with him, that I needed to know if he could please provide me with why he presented the -- Jim as he did in the article. background information. And he provided me the And I

We talked for 45 minutes.

asked him two or three times and he was very solid with this -- that Jim had -I understand that. And in that conversation, --

-- said he was working with the committee. -- you said to Mr. Charmoli, that Jim did, or may have, violated the criminal law; a high court misdemeanor. I don't believe I told him that at that point. him this is a very serious matter. details. When did you tell him -I don't --- or bring up the point of violation of the criminal law? I just told

I don't recall the exact

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I don't recall.

I told him it was a very serious matter. At that point I don't

don't recall if I did that or not.

know that I was down to the other portion in the statute that says it's a crime. point. Q A Q So you may have or may not; you don't recall? I don't. Now, there were points you do recall, making some comment regarding the fact that Jim may have or a possibility of or something to that effect of violating the criminal law? A That -- I did have a phone call with Amy Bizzigotti on Saturday the 29th, because it was in the paper that -- those facts were in the paper. Q A Q A All right. So let's go to the -I don't recall if I got to that

So that's where -Let's -- could we --- our discussion was and there was no -- I didn't say he's broken the law or that he committed a high court misdemeanor; I just said I was put in a very tough place; that if I didn't remove him -- and I still believe this today, if the appointing authority doesn't remove somebody like this, they're guilty of the high court misdemeanor.

Q A Q

All right.

Let's go to --

The appointing authority -Let's go the 29th.

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Okay?

Yeah.

29th, I got a call from Amy Bizzigotti in the

morning. Q A Q It was the 29th of October, 2011; correct? That's correct. And Ms. Bizzigotti is -- had a campaign sign of yours in the yard -- in their house? A Q Always have. All right. And you received a call from her, and this is

regarding the Blackburn matter that, by now, had appeared publicly or in the paper; is that right? A Q Yeah. And what was it that you said about the criminal law to Amy Bizzigotti? A Q A Q A Q A Q I don't recall. All right. I note that it was in the --

You got the call.

-- newspaper. Im trying to be specific. I told her that -Is it possible --- it was a serious matter. All right. You told her it's a serious matter. Is it Let me rephrase it, then.

possible you said to her something to the effect that Jim may have or might have or even has broken the criminal law? A I don't recall that. to remove him. I indicated to her I had no choice but

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Okay.

Did you -- we're still on the 29th, going from now

until October 29th, mention to anyone -- we've talked about Rick Charmoli and you said you don't remember; you've talked to Ms. Bizzigotti and you don't have a clear recollection as to whether you did or didn't say something about Jim violating the criminal law. A Q A Q The criminal law was not the focus of this case. I understand that. It was a simple removal. Now, let's say by October 30th or before, we've talked about Ms. Bizzigotti, we've talked about Mr. Charmoli. Is there

anyone else that you talked to, or would have heard you make reference to, Jim Blackburn either breaking or maybe or perhaps violating or possibly violating the criminal law in this statute? A I am not aware or cannot remember. I talked with -- Art

Stevens over this whole thing is the only council member I confided in. And he basically remained neutral, let me do

what I want, and knowing me, that this would hurt my campaign. I felt maybe he didn't want me to do that because

of the campaign. Q Is it fair -- all right. So that's three people you talked

to about it, and let me be clear. A And I don't know if I said anything about the law. I defined that this is a serious matter on my side. I'm sure I'm

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getting out from under this thing because I'm the appointing authority; this guy's on the front page of the newspaper, he's coordinating an article with Rick Charmoli, he's now showing up in videos -- her campaign video, which was part, too, of her big campaign. There wasn't much happening with

this campaign until this event, the council meeting, her T.V. ads, you know, the campaign's in full -- full -- it's progressing fully. So --

Is it fair to say as I've listened to you, that as to the three people you've identified you talked to -- Mr. Charmoli, Amy Bizzigotti and Art Stevens -- that you don't know -- you simply don't recall whether you did or did not make specific reference to a possibility that Jim Blackburn violated the criminal law? I did with Art Stevens. I said here's the deal. This is

us; we're making either the council or me as the appointing authority would be committing a high court misdemeanor to leave him on. That's how I felt.

Did you say anything to him about the section of the statute that makes it a misdemeanor for a member of the commission to -It doesn't say that. It says anyone or -- it doesn't say a You can imply that "anyone" would The heat is

member of the commission.

include the commission member; he's not listed. put on the appointing authority.

That's where my focus was.

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I was avoiding -So let me --- in my mind, I mean, I said I was avoiding and you've interrupted me again. Can I at least finish? In my mind, I I've

felt I could be in trouble for not removing him.

allowed him -- and Art mentioned, "Let's just wait until then, until after the election" and that would be not straight up. first. What I did hurt me, and I don't put myself

The city's interest -- our employees have come to us

and indicated through a representative that there is a problem, and I dealt with it and -- before it got worse. Are you testifying, then, that you did not state to anyone -I don't recall. Can I finish the question? Are you stating that you did not

state to anyone, including the three people we've mentioned, Ms. Bizzigotti, Art Stevens or Rick Charmoli or anyone else, by the 30th of October -As far as I --- that Jim Blackburn may have violated the criminal law in his actions? I don't recall. All right. -- that I had, I'm trying to remember them. them down. I don't write My discussions --

But my focus was not on Jim's criminal behavior.

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If I thought that needed to be addressed, I would have taken this matter directly to the police. Unfortunately, the

police in this area do not do their job and have not protected me over the last few years, so why do that? By saying "I don't recall," is it fair to say you may have, you may not have, -It's possible. -- you simply don't remember? I simply don't recall. It's possible you said that? This is -- what are we in? April? It was on the front page

of the paper and, you know, people bump into me; I try to not make any comments and to -- this matter is going to be handled in court or he was going to resign. resign. Okay. So -Now, let's -- the situation with Ms. Bizzigotti, did In fact, he did

you talk her husband, Dr. Bizzigotti? No. All right. She had a nice call to me, "Bill, we'd just like you to take the sign. We're friends with Jim; we don't know what's

going on," and I tried to explain to her that I had concerns that -- and they were brought to me; that I didn't start this. Okay. It came from a Public Safety Department worker.

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A Q A Q A Q A

And that I didn't start this.

This wasn't me.

Did you, then, go to her house and talk to her? No. All right. Yup. And -I did never go to her house. sign from her house -Someone else picked up the So you had a phone conversation with her?

Q A Q

Somebody picked up the sign?

All right.

-- that morning or that afternoon. You then in the notice that was filed state, specifically, that the removal is made for good cause under Section 3 of the Act, and it went on to say, "Mr. Blackburn has publicly represented he is a member of the political campaign of a mayoral candidate." Is that correct?

A Q A Q

(Nodding head in affirmative) That's what you said. Yes. Thank you. And you've testified that where you got that Now -- you nodded "yes," and I --

information, you've testified to three events; the 17th council meeting, the discussions with Mr. Charmoli later regarding Mr. Blackburn's comments that night, and the newspaper article; and that was the basis for this? A Q No. No; that's incorrect again. I also viewed a --

And the video; correct.

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A Q A Q A

-- T.V. video that all over northern Michigan. All right. That was, for some reason, pulled the next week. Okay. According to the cable T.V. people that told me it was going to be aired the very next week, suddenly it was off the air.

Q A Q A

Who did you talk to at cable? Margo. Okay. And actually, she was sketchy with details, but did check that the next time it would be aired would be the next Saturday. I watched all the cables the next Saturday, or

taped them, and it didn't appear; it was pulled, from what I can tell, which is my impression. Q A All right. She's an employee of Charter, or at least was at that time. And I knew her and made the phone call to find that out. Q Now, after the notice that you sent out on the 24th, did you receive a document from Mr. Blackburn in writing? A Several letters were -- and e-mails were sent back and forth. Q A Let me start with this (indicating) one. Yup. MR. WOTILA: And I'll mark this -- this is also

attached as Exhibit 1, I believe, to the Answer to the

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lawsuit. Right. MR. WOTILA: But this is an October 28th letter of

two pages from Mr. Blackburn; that will be Exhibit 5. (Deposition Exhibit 5 marked) MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: Can I ask you a question? Sure. I don't know the answer to this, but

was this letter ever signed, do you know? MR. WOTILA: As far as I know it was; that there But let me be clear. The --

was one that was signed, as I believe.

The copy you have there is not signed, I believe.

for the record, I believe I got this -- this one from Marcus, but I'm not sure. MR. HOMIER: So we'll have to clean that up. Okay.

Nevertheless, October 28th, 2011, this is a letter that purports to be from James Blackburn, addressed to Mr. Barnett, in care of the city managers. you. Have you ever seen that -(Witness reviews exhibit) Yes. -- letter before? All right. Do you have any reason to I'll hand that to

think that date is incorrect; October 28th? Don't know either way. Okay.

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Actually, yes, he did.

He filed it -- I don't know when I

got it, but I believe by the end of the week, he had totally flip-flopped from what he had told Marcus on Wednesday in this letter. Q A So we'll get to some discussions -So I do recall two days earlier he had totally opposite statements and by Friday, he's -- here's the letter. Q A Q So what -I do recall it came Friday. Well, you just kind of narrated it; I asked you a question, if you had seen that letter. A Q Yeah. So what if he did thing or another, changed his mind? that -A He contradicted himself from this letter is my point, and I had read it. Q All right. Let's go to the letter, and then we'll go to the Is

contradictions or alleged contradictions you're referring to. October 28th is the letter. You have seen that. And

would you have seen that before you filed the lawsuit? A Obviously not, because this was -- the filing occurred -- if you want to call it "lawsuit" or the notice? Q Let me back up. are two things. I am referring to the lawsuit, but there You -- we've already presented an exhibit

that's your October 24th letter of notice to Mr. Blackburn;

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that's October 24th. Yeah. Under the law, to jump ahead, we're talking a 10-day period where Mr. Blackburn has to respond in writing; is that correct? Yes. And this letter is dated October 28th, -Right. And you -- it's -So it was obviously prior to the lawsuit; it was in the 10 days. Fair enough. Did you see that letter before the lawsuit --

we'll refer to the lawsuit, but the legal action that's filed in Circuit Court, did you see that letter? Yes. Now, in it, among other things, Mr. Blackburn specifically states that he did not serve on Ms. Filkins' campaign committee and that he did not take an active part in the management of her campaign. Yeah. Do you think Mr. Blackburn was lying? I wouldn't use the word lying. I will say that it's Did you read that?

inconsistent with what he said two days prior to Marcus Peccia. All right. Then we'll go to that. So he -- let me back up.

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I'll take that phrase, because you say he's not lying, but inconsistent. Did he tell, to the best of your knowledge,

Marcus Peccia that he, Jim Blackburn, was taking, quote, "An active part in the management of her campaign," unquote? No. Did he -I'll tell you -Well, you said "no." Can I finish? I thought that was a "yes" or "no" question, but you can go on all you want, sir. Would you like to know what he said? I'm asking you -MR. HOMIER: Well, wait a minute. Did he tell Marcus Peccia --

-- something very specific. MR. HOMIER: Well, let's back up a minute. We're

talking about a letter from Mr. Blackburn to Mr. Peccia, that you asked whether the mayor had seen. MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: Yes. And them you're asking him whether or

not Mr. Blackburn told Marcus things. MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: Yes. I know there were phone calls, there So if we're talking

were voicemails, there were letters.

about did Mr. Blackburn write to Mr. Peccia and state this,

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I just want the record to be clear that we're talking about the letter. MR. WOTILA: That's fair enough. To explain, I

asked the witness about some specific statements in this letter, two statements, and this witness stated that this was inconsistent with what Mr. Blackburn had, quote, "told," unquote, Mr. Peccia two days earlier. My next question was

"Did Mr. Blackburn state two days earlier to Mr. Peccia that he, Blackburn, took an active part in the management of her campaign?" His answer was no. And then he wanted to

explain more and I think that's where -THE WITNESS: MR. WOTILA: Well, listen --- we were. I know what was reported I can tell you what

I don't know what Jim said to him. to me.

So I have limited information.

was reported to me. Well, you made an affirmative statement that this -- those two phrases, referring to an active part in the management of her campaign and referring to being on her campaign committee, those two phrases, -My understanding is he admitted to that. -- were inconsis- -- can I finish? He admitted. So your understanding is that Mr. Blackburn admitted to the city manager that he, Blackburn, quote, "served on her

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political committee," quote, unquote. No. I assume --

Is that correct?

No; thank you. I don't know. All right. I wasn't present for the call.

So you don't know whether he admitted that or You don't

stated that to the city manager two days earlier? know?

I don't know how it was -- the information was couched to him. I know what his response was.

And you don't know whether Mr. Blackburn stated to the city manager, whether he, Blackburn, took a, quote, "active part in the management of her campaign," unquote? I don't know what details were said besides what I know. that could have been, I don't know. Thank you. -- if you want to just get right to the point, I'll tell you what I was told. I'm going to go through some e-mails and sort through them. I'd like to know what you know. At any time did Mr. I'll tell you -So

Blackburn, from October 19th to the present date, state to you -- let's find out what you know -- that he, Blackburn, took an active part in the management of Carla Filkins' campaign? Has he ever said that? To you, since October 19th, 2011?

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A Q A Q A Q

Jim Blackburn said that to me? Yes. Jim Blackburn has not spoken to me in years. Thank you. Has Carla --

Other than at public meetings. Has Carla Filkins ever represented to you that Jim Blackburn took an active part in the management of her campaign and was on her committee?

This has been asked and answered. Carla --

I have not spoken to

Q A Q

Okay.

Thank you.

-- so how would that ever have happened? I don't know. asking you. I don't know if she -- I have no idea. I'm

Now, you have a letter from Mr. Blackburn

stating as it states on the 28th and a lawsuit is filed -or the legal action, we'll call it, in Circuit Court, to remove him by about November 2nd or 3rd; correct? A I don't have the filing date, but if that's what you recall. THE WITNESS: filing date? MR. HOMIER: 1st. MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: All right; or thereabouts. No; November the 2nd. I'll get to that next. I think it's the 1st -- November the Mr. Homier, do you remember the

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This letter of the 28th also references his appearance before the city council. And it states, and I think it's

the bottom line -- bottom paragraph, three lines down, that when he addressed council, he did so on his own; correct? MR. HOMIER: letter says? MR. WOTILA: correct? A Q What paragraph, sir? I'm pointing to the last paragraph, down -- "I did so on my own," three lines down. A "Neither have I donated money to her campaign. Well I did speak out during the recent public comment at council as to your irresponsible actions on the radio show, I did so on my own." Q All right. Now, let me point out, you, under the statute, I'm asking him that says that; You're asking him if that's what the

did a letter -- I'm sorry -- you've testified as to the conclusions you drew from what you observed and heard that caused you, on the 24th of October, to send a notice; correct? A You've testified to that?

I'm not -- go over and over and over again, why the notice was sent.

And now you get a letter that states specifically he was not a member of her committee and did not manage her campaign, he appeared on the 17th on his own, and he's never donated

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money.

Why did you, given that letter, go ahead and file a

legal action after receiving the letter? Because of his activities that we've talked about, because of I got a phone call from Marcus on the morning in which Jim was receiving this. Marcus made a decision to call Jim You're

Blackburn and say, "Jim, there's a letter coming. going to be removed."

And Jim, from what Marcus told me,

resigned and said, "I want to continue working with the committee"; the exact same words that Rick Charmoli told me the week before. like to resign. So he's working with the committee; he'd Marcus called me and announced to me, "Jim The matter's

Blackburn has resigned Wednesday morning. over." All right. Okay?

The next thing I knew, there's some e-mail to Jim Mr. Blackburn, at that

Blackburn requesting it in writing.

point -- well, the e-mails speak for themselves, I guess, but you can read those and you'll see that -So did --- he refused to. I don't know what the wording is but --

but he would not sign something. Are you paraphrasing or giving exact words at this -Paraphrasing. Thank you. MR. WOTILA: Now, let's mark as Exhibit --

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whatever number we're at, Ann. REPORTER: 6.

(Deposition Exhibit 6 marked) Exhibit 6 is -- and I'll give it to your attorney -- dated October 30th. It is attached to your complaint, and it

purports to be a letter from Jim Blackburn to Marcus -- and it will be in your pleadings, but I have a separate copy here. (Off the record interruption) All right. I asked you the question, after receiving the

October 28th letter from Mr. Blackburn, why you proceeded and you've discussed that to some extent. Now, on Sunday,

October 30th -- and at this point, I'd point out that it appears the lawsuit or the litigation was still not filed -there was another e-mail from Mr. Blackburn that's attached to your complaint. Now, to walk through it -- and I'd like

you to read that for a moment -Well, let's walk through it. All right. Let's go -- whatever you want to walk through it with. It says, "Tonight" -- this is Mr. Blackburn writing -- "I returned home from being out of town and was called by someone Barnett talked to. He claimed this action to remove What do you want me to --

me was initiated by someone on the Cadillac City Police Department." Now, this was October 30th. Up until this

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date, do you know of any information Mr. Blackburn would have received by October 30th or before, that this action was initiated by someone in the Cadillac Police Department? Absolutely not. All right. So you wouldn't contest Mr. Blackburn being

truthful in stating this appears to be first time he heard anything about that? I don't know. All right. Thank you. I'm not privy -You've told me --

How would I know that?

I'm asking you how you might know. I'm not privy --

-- about rumors, you've told me about secondhand things you've heard from people, and so I'm simply asking you, if you would know. And if you don't, that's fine.

If I would know what? If you would know of any instance where Mr. Blackburn would have been informed before Sunday, October 30th, this e-mail, that the action to remove him was initiated by someone in the Cadillac City Police Department? It was -- I've never said that to anyone. Okay. I told Amy that a Public Safety Department employee had made a complaint, and that's how this started. I won't say

"complaint," but notice -- I'd probably put it in the form

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of a complaint.

I --

Did you tell Ms. Bizzi- --- to this day don't know the exact details other than awareness was brought forward to our council member. brought it to me, I looked it over and made the call. It also notes that it was represented to Jim -- "He represented to me that I was resigning." So Jim is He

indicating he got a call from someone Barnett talked to and it was represented that he, Jim Blackburn, was resigning. No. I told that person he resigned and said he wanted to

keep working with the committee, Wednesday morning. Okay. And then decided to not sign anything to follow through with that; then sought a leave of absence for two weeks, according to Marcus, so he could continue working with the committee. All right. phrases? Exact phrases. Oh, exact phrase. Yeah. Marcus said, "With the committee"? That's what I was told by my city manager. Now, are you paraphrasing? Or using exact

He used the same wording that Rick Charmoli did.

Now, this goes on to state, Blackburn addressing Marcus, that Marcus had told Jim Blackburn that Bill Barnett initiated the action. Where are we?

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I'm on line 3.

And the point is, this is stating -- this is

Mr. Blackburn stating he never heard anything from Marcus about a problem with the Cadillac City Police Department. He asked Marcus who initiated this and was told it was Mr. Barnett. And now he's hearing for the first time about Do you question that, that that would be --

someone else.

that this is the first time he's hearing about this? A As people get told things and they repeat them, obviously Amy misunderstood what I said. Q A What did Amy Bizzigotti misunderstand? First of all, Cadillac Police Department; the fact that he is resigning, which means he is still resigning; I explained to her what happened after the notice was served and his responses and that she was upset. They're friends with Jim.

He works -- very important to their medical profession and it was just uncomfortable for her to have that sign up and it would just soothe everybody -- or soothe Jim, I think, and soothe them just to remove the sign. I said, "That's

absolutely fine, I'll have someone over there in a second." And she asked me what's going on and I basically told her that a complaint was made, I didn't start this. I mean, in

that paper, that day, he continued to -- you know, this whole thing has been a campaign more than just was he on the committee or not, it's all about me. But -- in his eyes. I

see it as I'm not the one on trial here.

I had this come to

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me; I didn't initiate it.

Someone from our rank and file, And I don't believe But I think it

police and/or fire, came forward to me.

I even knew which side it was at that point. I was informed it was a public safety person.

Now, this goes on to say -- and this goes on to deal with the discussion that Jim Blackburn had with Marcus that you've referred to. I am now --

I'm sorry -- I was not privy to, Roger; right? Thank you. And Jim says, --

What line, sir? Six lines down, halfway through. Quote, "To avoid Circuit

Court action, I could resign, but it had to be in writing." In other words, he's stating he is told by Marcus "to avoid Circuit Court action, I could resign, but it had to be in writing. I said I would probably resign after reading and In other words, Jim had not -MR. HOMIER: speaks for itself, Roger. about what it says, -MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: says. MR. WOTILA: Okay. All right. -- let's ask questions about what it What is "in other words"? I mean, it

seeing it."

If you want to ask questions

Are you contesting that what Mr. Blackburn put in this October 30th e-mail, which you attached to your pleading,

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that this is incorrect? Yeah. All right. "To avoid Circuit Court action, I could resign. to be in writing." conversation. gone. Okay. But it had

That was never said in the first He's

I got a call from Marcus, "He's done. Okay?

He resigned." That's --

I'll continue if you'd let me. All right. The next thing I knew Marcus conferred with our attorney, who told Marcus -MR. HOMIER: THE WITNESS: MR. HOMIER: Unh-unh (negative). Unh-unh (negative)? Okay.

Look, my discussions with you, my

discussions with Marcus, -THE WITNESS: MR. HOMIER: THE WITNESS: MR. WOTILA: question. MR. HOMIER: Yes, I know. Okay. -- are privileged. All right. I agree with that. I didn't ask the

The next thing I know there was an e-mail sent to Jim, "please put this in writing." All right.

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A Q A

Okay? All right. And at that point is where "I'm not going to resign" and whatever the e-mails say.

Q A Q

So you believe that the version that Mr. -I don't know. -- Blackburn put here is inaccurate? know; this is all hearsay? Or you just don't

I don't know.

I -- this is not how I heard it go down, is I don't know. The writing, you're going to But what he told me was that And

all I'm saying.

need to go to Marcus on that.

he had resigned and later in the afternoon, he reneged.

basically refused to put it into writing and then proceeded to request a two-week leave of absence until the campaign was over so he could continue working with the committee. Q A Q All right. And he -I appreciate that. And you've heard -- you weren't privy to So --

the conversations with Marcus and Mr. Blackburn; you heard from Marcus what you've testified to and then you saw this (indicating) e-mail. Would it be fair to say this e-mail

seems to be somewhat different than what Marcus said? A Yeah. Well, it's also different than what I said to Amy

Bizzigotti. Q All right.

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A Q

So there's a communication gap here somewhere. All right. Now, this does, however, address for the first

time -- Mr. Blackburn is saying here on October 30th it's the first time he heard anything about someone else initiating this action other than you. this; correct? A Q The word "initiating" is a little tricky here. That's -action?" A Q it says in the subject line, "Who initiated the That's what I'm referring to. That's clear from

What's "the action"? All right. Fair enough. The subject line says, "Who

initiated the action to remove me from the Civil Service Commission?" A Q A Q A Q Okay. Yes. Okay. Yeah; it does say that. That's what this says; correct?

You're talking way back at the top, at the subject?

It's from Jim Blackburn, -It does say that. All right. And that's the subject line. And is it fair to

say, looking at this, that Mr. Blackburn is saying, "This is the first time I heard anybody other than Mr. Barnett" -A Q A How would I know? -- "initiated this action." How would I know? Just because he's written it? I don't

know what that means to me.

I don't see consistency with

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what -Is this the first time that you have any document that would indicate that Mr. Blackburn states, "This is the first time I, Mr. Blackburn, heard about someone else making a complaint other than Mr. Barnett"? How can I speculate that? seen him. All right. This is the first document I've

It was obviously a response to -Don't answer the question. I'll go on. That's

dated what date and time? The 30th, 2202, which is, like, 10:02. Thank you. P.m. -- up until this question arose in October of 2011, about how long had Mr. Blackburn served on the Commission? He's been there 14 years, according to his letters, when he attends. over half. And in his service to the city -- it's a non-paid position; correct? -Correct. -- are you aware of any time before October 17th, 2011, where he was accused of being threatening or vindictive in any way regarding his actions on that commission? Threatening or vindictive? Yes. Apparently the last few years he's attended just Now, --

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A Q A Q A Q A

No. All right. I -- I'm in the -Thank you. -- dark, basically, about his -Are you aware of him? -- of what he's done, other than his attendance record was not very good recently. I don't know how many years I

looked back, but it looked like he had gone to maybe half the meetings or a little over or a little less. And this is I

a group I don't -- you know, these are Union issues. don't attend meetings. Q

I don't know when the meetings are.

Well, you have your hand pretty much on the pulse of what goes on in this city?

A Q

Not this. All right.

Not this. Do you have any information or knowledge --

secondhand, hearsay, wherever -- that in those last 14 years, Mr. Barnett, before October 17, 2011 -- I'm sorry -Mr. Blackburn, before October 17, 2011, acted in any vindictive way or intimidating way while serving on the Commission toward anybody in the Civil Service? A Q A Not that I -Okay. Thank you. And that

If the question was I aware of anything, no.

played no part, nor did his lack of attendance.

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All right.

Now, we have that e-mail, wherein I will

characterize -- you don't have to -- Mr. Blackburn mentioning that he's heard for the first time someone other than you may have claimed or initiated the action to remove him. A Q Right. Because he was --

Now, let's go to the other documents that you attached -MR. HOMIER: Was that --

-- to your complaint. MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: THE WITNESS: Was that a question? No; that was a statement. I was going to answer it.

Q A

Well, go ahead, if you have something to answer. Well, he accused me of being behind this whole thing previously, because that's all he knew. You know, he didn't

know there was a complaint made from the people he serves. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Right. That's all he knew, in other words.

That's right. That's what you understood, -That's understandable. -- that's the only information he had. That's totally understandable. So that would be understandable. I was taking the heat on this. Would it then be -I'm protecting --

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-- our -- I'm protecting my employee, and the employees that have to -- they put my signs up, they put stickers up; they're politically active.

Q A

They're employees? Yeah. I don't -- yeah, they do. They're citizens. They

don't do it as employees; they do it as citizens. Q A Your employees put up, you just said, the signs and things? Yeah; on their off time, or they ask to put them up. mean, -Q A Thank you. -- I have supporters at the city that work for the police and fire that are worried. Q A Q All right. Well, have you -I

They've written letters. Everybody that puts a sign up is not on your committee, are they?

A Q

No. All right. Everybody that supports you is not on your

committee, are they? A Q No. And people who put my sign up may not vote for me. Well, I'm well aware of that from a highly failed It's an interesting process. So,

Right.

campaign I had years ago.

yeah; just because someone puts a sign up doesn't mean they're on your committee; just because someone supports you, it doesn't mean they're on your committee; is that

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correct? (No verbal response) That's correct? Yeah; that's correct. Now, you have a October 30th e-mail, which we've gone over in detail. That's Exhibit 6. And now you attach to your

pleading a series of e-mails and messages from Mr. Blackburn to Marcus, asking who this person is making a complaint; is that correct? Do we have that attached to our complaint? Yeah. I believe so. I didn't draft the complaint, Roger.

I understand that; that you didn't draft the complaint. However, there are a series of e-mails and affidavits. not going to -- these are attached to the complaint primarily starting with -- well, there are various exhibits, C, just for the record, D and E, and I'm just going to hand those to you briefly. that. (Off the record interruption) (Witness reviews documents) MR. WOTILA: We can go off the record. I'll just ask you to skim through I'm

(Off the record) Okay. We have had you look briefly at some additional

attachments to the litigation of -- that was filed on your

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behalf, or you filed.

And they are a series of e-mails and

transcribed voicemails that Mr. Blackburn left for Marcus. Let me walk through that. Each one of those -- in each one

of those, he is asking for the name of the individual or person employed by the city who brought this action; is that right? I don't -- wouldn't characterize it as that: "I'm still waiting for the names of the individuals within the city police department who made contact with Bill Barnett in regards to wanting me off the Civil Service Board" is what it says. "Please

provide me those names as soon as possible so that I can make a deal with them as I need to -- in response to what Bill Barnett's attempting to do to me." All right. it of -10-31. -- 10-31-11; correct? Yes. I don't know who put the date; I assume it was the In fact, if you Now, that one that you just read has a date on

attorney's office had this transcribed. could let me -Sure. -- peek at that again. (Witness reviews document) Yes.

They were transcribed by Beverly, it looks like, in

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Mike's office.

And she is signing something to -- an

affidavit representing that. Correct. So what you've just read is 10-31. Going through

it quickly, and I'll let you come back to discuss them in detail if you wish, is another transcription dated 10-31; correct? (Witness reviews document) Right. And then attached as Exhibit D as in dog, are a series of e-mails, which I'll certainly give you time to review or discuss if we go into it. 31 as well; correct? (Witness reviews documents) I see that date on there. attached together. quickly. D. There's a number of e-mails However, those are dated October

Let me just run through them real

31 looks to be the date on what's probably Exhibit

Exhibit E appears to have the same dates; 6:00 in the

morning, 6:51 in the morning, 1812, 1800 hours -- okay. Those are the same two, I believe. Okay. Now, a couple of things.

And there's -I'm sorry -- go ahead. There's another setup here and that is also the same thing. So, there's three sets of e-mails but they appear to be all the same one.

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Now, trying to put this in a time line, you've testified that prior to, on, or before October 30, 2011, you don't recall whether you did or did not make any public comments to anyone regarding the possibility of Mr. Barnett being -"Mr. Barnett" -- I'm sorry -- Mr. Blackburn being charged criminally. You just don't remember?

A Q A

I don't remember. You might have -I recall two things while we've taken a break. I made a

call to Dan Moriarity and just left a message on his machine explaining why I filed this, and the reasons were basically what we've talked about today. I also called Tiyi Schippers I don't recall whether I I wasn't

just to let her know why I called. said anything.

I'm trying to be nice about this.

out there pounding him, saying "you broke the law"; I couched it in terms of I felt I had no choice because it says the appointing authority is the main emphasis on this. Q A Q A Q A I understand that. But I --

It implies that a member of the Board -- is there a problem? I'm sorry -- was that a question to me? Yeah. Okay. Is there a problem? questions here. I mean, I'm just answering your Or just --

No, you're not.

And I'd like to ask this.

I asked

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something very specific. someone, that --

You may or may not have said to

I don't recall, other than Jim Blackburn.

I talked to -- or I didn't talk

rather, I talked to two people on the phone.

to them, I just left messages; informational wise and I don't recall when that happened, if it was the 31st. Those

are basically the people I recall leaving messages for, just to give them information and an understanding of what's happening. If someone were to say that it had been attributed to you before October 30, 2011, that you had made comments that Jim Blackburn may have violated the criminal law, -Okay. I also -Or you just -- you might

-- would you say that's wrong? have? I'm not sure. said. here. I might have.

I don't recall everything I

I couched things in terms of I'm put in a tough spot Like, I talked to Dan's dad as well, Dr. Moriarity;

that's just going door to door, that I was under the gun here to do something about a problem. of the Saturdays around this time. how that discussion came up. So you may have, you may not have; you just don't remember. I'm not in -Is that the bottom line? That was probably one

But -- and I don't know

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I was not out there trying to make him look like a criminal. Intent is -- is an issue here; knowledge of the -- what his responsibilities are, whether he even knew that he's not supposed to do these things or not. You know, if you don't

know, you know, Freedom of Information -- rather, Open Meetings Act, when people don't have the intent, I consider it the same thing. I don't know for sure. All I know is I

have the feeling he's on the committee; I'm feeling if I don't act that I'm out of line. Q I want you to assume for my next question that Jim has information that you or someone at the City has said that he may have violated the criminal law or may be charged criminally. A I want you to assume that. I have

That -- never have I said that he would be charged. not gone to the police. him. MR. HOMIER: you.

I have not made a police report on

I think he's posing a hypothetical to

Is that what we're doing?

I want you to assume that Jim would testify that he -- by October 30, 2011, he has been told or given information that you or someone involved with you has said Jim might be -could be -- may be charged criminally.

A Q A

No. I want you to assume that. Never.

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Q A

What -I -- I have indicated to people that after that article went and to everybody's looking at it, I don't recall saying he would be charged ever. this up to this point. Police have not been involved in

I didn't say -- let me be as clear as I can be. up.

Let me back

You're now testifying you never said to anyone, October

30 or before, that Jim could be or may be or could be susceptible to being charged criminally under this Act? A Q It's possible. Thank you. I don't recall.

Now, I want you to assume that by October 30,

2011, James Blackburn will testify that he had heard that such a statement had been made; that Jim could possibly be or it would be possible that he would be charged criminally under the Act. That's a premise to my next statement, that We have the October 30 letter, which

he has heard that.

speaks for itself and now I get to the series of e-mails where he is e-mailing and phoning Marcus, asking for the name of the person that is accusing him. All right? Would

you think that if Jim had been informed or heard that it's possible he'd be charged criminally, that it's unusual he would ask Marcus "who my accuser is"? A I'm not going to comment or -- I don't know. to speculate on what's -- what his problem is. I'm not going It sounded

like he wanted to make a deal with him, and I don't know

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what that means. You don't know? All right. Well, let's go to your verified Do you

complaint, then, as to you don't want to speculate. have a copy of that complaint? I'll tell you what it looks like. Well, I have a copy, so we'll walk through.

And what it would look like -- and what it looked like to our staff. I'd like to walk through your complaint, and your counsel will have a chance to answer and ask questions. The actual

complaint consists of six pages without the exhibits. MR. WOTILA: Why don't we mark this, since I'll go

through it, as the next exhibit. (Deposition Exhibit 7 marked) Okay. Okay. I'm handing you a copy so we can walk through it. I would just like to say that this is the complaint,

not the notice of what I -- when I made my decision. MR. HOMIER: It's -- let's make sure we're clear.

It is not a complaint; it is a Verified Petition for Confirmation of Removal of a member of the City of Cadillac Civil Service Commission. MR. WOTILA: Correct. Now, if you want me to

Let me walk through to paragraph 8.

go through, on the record, the first seven paragraphs I will, however I think that that -- those seven paragraphs

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speak for themselves as far as what the Act is that is involved and Mr. Blackburn serving in the Civil Service Commission. So I'm moving forward to paragraph 8, should we Paragraph 8 states:

have to go back otherwise.

"Upon information and belief, Respondent" -- who's Mr. Blackburn -- "either serves on a political committee or takes active part in the management of the political campaign." Is that correct, it states that? Yeah. And then paragraph 9 refers to Mr. Blackburn having publicly stated he's a member of the political campaign, Exhibit A -for reference, Exhibit A attached is the newspaper article we've discussed. Now, let me walk through this. It states:

"As a member of the campaign, Respondent Mr. Blackburn has undertaken an active part in the management of a political campaign." Are you basing that statement upon what you've already testified to? It doesn't say that, Roger. It says, "Either serves on a

political campaign or takes active part in the management of a political campaign." question -MR. HOMIER: we're on paragraph -You're on paragraph 10. I think So you're premise of your

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MR. WOTILA:

I was in paragraph 10, I was walking

He told Marcus he wanted to continue working with the

committee and that's why he would resign. Okay. Thank you.

That's the main reason I put that in there, because he's admitted to it. This is after the fact but he's in the

video, he's speaking in a coordinated fashion with her, he's representing himself to Rick Charmoli that he's working with the committee, he's -- this is all pre-notice. You know,

I've -- this -- things that are coming up afterwards are -are helpful, too, for our case because he refused to ultimately sign a resignation letter and then wanted a two-weeks leave of absence so he could continue working with the committee. So that -- how is he not a member? He's

spending money, doing FOIA's, appearing at meetings with FOIA's at some point as well. Obviously very active and

this -- you know, she's benefitted from his activities. Paragraph 13, states: "When Respondent" -- who's Jim Blackburn -"learned about this complaint, Respondent repeatedly demanded to know the identity of the complaining Public Safety Department employee." And I believe those e-mails and voice mails were attached to the complaint. We've gone through -- you've had a chance to

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look at them briefly; is that correct? Yup -- yes. Now, nowhere in here, starting from paragraph 13 on, does it mention or state that Mr. Blackburn was informed or may have been informed that he could possibly be charged criminally, does it? It doesn't state that in the complaint, does it? I haven't read the whole thing right now, It --

I don't know.

whether it's in there or not.

Well, take a minute to read through, from 13 on while we sit here, because I'll have some questions about it. Okay. MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: You're talking about the petition? The complaint. The petition -- I'm

saying "the complaint," and I apologize. MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: Because I know there's -The correct --- "complaint" used in the -Yes. -- context of the paragraph itself so

I don't want to get confused. MR. WOTILA: Correct. I'm referring to the

Verified Petition which consists of six pages and some 28 paragraphs. (Witness reviews documents) I don't recall that it's in here. The city's handling this

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as a civil matter. done yet, though.

I don't see it in here; I'm not quite I doubt it's in there. It's not

specifically listed. All right. Thank you. Now, paragraph -- in paragraph 13

through 17, which you can skim through, specifically addressed attached e-mails wherein Mr. Blackburn is asking for the name of the individual who may have brought this complaint. I would consider it "demanding," but very persistent and so forth. (Off the record interruption) In paragraph 19, it states: "The Act is designed to prevent exactly this kind of political retribution against police officers and firefighters who might not support the same candidate for political office as members of the Civil Service Commission." That's what it states. Yeah; yeah. Now, you've already testified this complaint mentions nothing -- this petition mentions nothing about Mr. Blackburn being informed or a mention of possible criminal charges. It was in the newspaper on the 30th or so. And -- fair enough. And you signed this; correct?

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A Q

20- -- whatever. And your knowledge that there was mention of that in the newspaper by the -- roughly the 28th, 29th, 30th, in that time period; correct?

At least on the 29th. morning.

I believe there was an article that

Q A Q

That mentioned that? Yeah. And that was certainly before any and all of these e-mails and voice mails that Mr. Blackburn left demanding to know who his accuser was; correct?

From what I can see is that those e-mails appear to be after the newspaper article.

Thank you.

Now, if it's out there in public in the

newspaper that there's a possible criminal charge against Mr. Blackburn for any potential violation, and he -A That's not it said. It referred to that there's an Act --

you know, the article speaks for itself. Q A Thank you. It doesn't say there's a potential criminal charge is -- my memory serves me -Q The article refers to a criminal -- potential criminal penalty -- correct? -A Q They mention a penalty. -- of up to two years; correct?

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A Q

That's what the statute says. All right. And then after that there are these series of

e-mails and voice mails asking who his accuser is. A Q Yeah. Now, why, in paragraph 19, 20, 21, et cetera, are there references to Mr. Blackburn wanting to know who his accuser might be on a criminal charge, as being vindictive? A Q Repeat your question. Paragraph 19 talks about the Act being designed to prevent political retribution; correct? A Q Yeah. Paragraph 20 talks about -- I'm sorry -- go to 21. example: "A police officer or firefighter who supports a particular mayoral candidate may not receive impartial treatment from a Civil Service Commissioner who's a member of a political committee." Correct? A Q 21 speaks for itself. All right. 22 speaks for itself, but it does say that Mr. For

Blackburn's repeated demand to get the identity of the complainant -- or the person who complained, "illustrates the risk of political retaliation." A Q If I were -It states that? Correct?

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A Q A Q

If I -- it says what it says. All right. I don't know why -Why -- why -- is that the only conclusion you drew, that with a newspaper article that sets out a criminal penalty regarding Mr. Blackburn's activity, and Mr. Blackburn asking who his accuser is, that that's political retaliation as opposed to simply wanting to know who his accuser is on a possible criminal charge?

If I were a policeman that has my bumper sticker or a fireman that has a --

Q A Q

Can you answer the question? I don't understand the question. Why did you only put in this Verified Petition, the "spin" - and that's my word -- that Mr. Blackburn asking who his accuser was, when there's a, in the newspaper, mention of a two-year criminal penalty, that that's retribution as opposed to asking, "Who's my accuser in this criminal case? Mr. Barnett? here? Or someone else?" Why is that the only spin

No one has accused him of a criminal case. handled in a civil fashion.

This is being

Q A

All right. I can't explain what was going through his head or his reasons, but when you come --

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Q A Q

Well, you did here in the complaint. When you come down to the city -You said that this was political -- I'm sorry -- in here, in your petition, you specifically state that what he was doing was political --

A Q A Q

Yeah. -- or potential political retribution -Well, --- against members of the Civil Service. MR. HOMIER: Roger. MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: says. Okay. Fair enough. I'm sorry. That is not what it says,

So let's not mischaracterize it. Let me restate exactly what this

"Respondent's repeated" -- paragraph 22: "Respondent's repeated demands to uncover the identity of the police officer or firefighter who complained about Respondent's role in the Filkins campaign, along with Respondent's statement that he will deal with the complainant" -- or person -- "as he needs to illustrates the risk of political retaliation."

A Q

Yeah. Now, --

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This is not just knowing who his accuser is, he wants to make a deal with him. What does that mean?

I don't know. means.

You've drawn a conclusion as to what it

I have.

It appears there's going to be a retribution of

some -- he's going to make a deal with the person. Q So you have an individual, Mr. Blackburn, who is now clearly -- well -- and we know that there's a newspaper article that mentions criminal penalties and -- two years criminal penalty, I've asked you to at least assume Mr. Blackburn has heard the same thing from sources saying that this statement has been made and attributed to you or someone close to you, and Mr. Blackburn asks, in relation to a possible criminal penalty, "Who is my accuser?" that inappropriate? A I find it to march down to the city police department and fire department and start interviewing our officers when he's in a position overseeing their union activities or their hiring, firing, promotions, and he's down there out of line asking them those questions, I think would cause any normal person when their judge or the Board over the top of them is coming down in an individual basis asking those types of questions, I think that it would upset and concern people that there's something down the line that they're going to pay for. You find

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Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

Your interpretation is that could do that? I believe -And if -- if --- that is what normal employees that are under his -And if he's --- umbrella -- can I continue? I stopped because you had stopped -All right. -- but continued. Under his --- certainly wouldn't cut you off. --umbrella -Proceed. -- that they're going to worry about him coming down and you throw in these statements, then he's -- he didn't -- you know, that's an inappropriate act as well. concern above and beyond just what we had. It furthers our So I --

And it isn't inappropriate for you to bring the action not even knowing who said this or exactly what was said; for you to send that letter of the 24th, when you didn't even have the information of exactly --

A Q A

It was not --- who said it? -- given to me. The council member was protecting the

employee for just this reason.

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And if all the information Mr. Blackburn got from his efforts, A, no response from Mr. Peccia with the name, and B, asking some of the officers and the response is, "There was no complaint," that's what he's told, and Mr. Blackburn has read in the paper a possible two-year criminal charge and Mr. Blackburn has heard, correct or not, from sources that you or someone close to you have made mention of this, you do not believe that he should contact Mr. Peccia and ask who his accuser is? MR. HOMIER: And all I want to do is put on the

record here that that assumes all of these facts -MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: A Q Yes, it does. -- that are not in evidence? Correct.

I don't understand your question, Mr. Wotila. All right. We'll move on. We'll move on. The answer to And you've had a

the -- your Verified Petition, is filed. chance to review that as well; correct? A Q Yes.

Did you see the two affidavits that were attached; one signed by Ms. Filkins and one signed by Mr. Bengelink?

A Q

At some point I did. Okay. And in each instance -- you know, you're welcome to

look at them, and I'll give you a copy so I'm not misstating anything --

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A Q

I've read them this week; last night or two nights ago. In each instance they're stating that Mr. Blackburn was not a member of a committee and did not manage the campaign. that correct? Is

A Q A

Yeah. Or words to that effect? That's inconsistent with what he told Marcus and his actions that I saw and the impressions he gave.

All right.

You're relying somewhat heavily on Marcus using

the word "committee." A Well, I -- "working with the committee" was the exact same phrase Rick Charmoli told me; -Q A Okay. Thanks.

-- totally consistent prior to him writing that letter on Friday after probably figuring out what happened and what he's done and that it is illegal, if -- if all of this is proven and is true.

I'm sorry -- I didn't understand the last phrase. welcome to explain that. but you added something.

You're

I didn't ask you that question, So he figured out -- what and how?

His letter on that Friday certainly was different. Something must have happened between Wednesday and Friday to write a letter that was inconsistent with "I'm resigning. won't put it in writing. I'm going to ask for a two-week I

leave of absence to" -- and "I'm working with" -- "I want to

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continue working with the committee," same phrase -- exact same phrase. I didn't know this when I filed the notice,

but it turned out to be the exact phrase from Rick Charmoli. And I never told Marcus what Rick Charmoli told me in that regard. Let me ask you about the conversation that Marcus has with Jim. Yes. -- Blackburn -- okay -- and that Jim had not seen your October 24th letter of removal? He didn't get into any details. the letter's coming, -He didn't get into detail? Not that detail. Okay. Well, fine. Go ahead. He said he explained that Did Marcus tell you that he phoned Jim --

He explained he had a letter -- that a letter was coming, the mayor has removed him, -Yes. -- ands it states in there why. Yes. Okay? So -And at that response, "Okay, I'll resign then because I would like to" -- "I support her, I'm going to continue working with her committee." That's what's brought to me at

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10:30-ish Wednesday morning, on a phone call out of the blue from Marcus, "Hey, here's the deal," -So --- "he's resigned." Your understanding is that Jim received a call. Did Marcus

tell you where Jim was when he received the call? No. Would it refresh your memory that he would have said he was in a Spectrum Health Board meeting in Grand Rapids, Michigan? I recall it at some other point, -All right. -- in either one of his e-mails where he indicates he was at Spectrum. And did Marcus tell you that Jim had not seen or had read to him the details of the letter, -No. Was not informed of that; it was a done deal. He

resigned. Could I finish? Marcus was relieved -- I got a very relieved phone call because he's under a lot of stress every single day. he's resigned." Did Marcus -"It's worked itself out, he's gone." Did Marcus indicate to you when he was talking Jim, first of "Hey,

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all, we've now established Marcus did not read your letter to him, your letter of removal. I don't know if he did or not. Thank you. All I know is that Jim indicated he wanted to continue working with the committee and if he had the choice to either serve on the committee or work -- on his Civil Service Commission, or work with her committee, he would choose to work with her committee and he would -- he was resigning. He's resigned. Marcus did not Jim that --

And the next thing is, then, did Marcus tell you whether or not -- let me back up. Did Marcus tell you that Marcus said "You are removed by the

to Jim, "You are removed, Jim." mayor." I have no idea what he told him. Thank you. -- told me -You don't know. -- "It's over; he's resigned.

He --

The matter is concluded."

Did Marcus tell you that he, Marcus, said to Jim, "You can resign"? Did he tell me? All right. He told me nothing like that.

Did Marcus -- so Marcus didn't get -- when

Marcus talked to you, he didn't get into details of what he, Marcus, had told Jim?

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He told me that he called the person to tell them that the paperwork was on the way, --

Q A Q

All right. -- "be expecting it." Okay?

And so Marcus did not tell you that -- and I'll be specific. Marcus did not tell you that he, Marcus, told Jim "You can just resign, Jim"?

A Q A

I don't know what he said to him. Thank you. All I know is Jim has chosen to resign, he had an opportunity, he wished to continue working with her campaign. He supports Carla, and that's fine and dandy; I But that's what he said, according to And something changed after

appreciate that.

Marcus when he -- he resigned. that and he changed his mind -Q A Q And because you've said --- twice.

-- you don't know what Marcus told Jim, you don't know whether Marcus talked to Jim about how much this would cost the city if it went forward and therefore you should just resign? You don't know? He wrote a letter that said he would not

That I don't know.

contest this; if the fire department wanted him off he wasn't going to -- this is "he" being Jim -- that he wasn't going to cost the city taxpayers like Barnett and Stevens

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and, you know, it's all political.

But the point is, I

don't know if that was said -- I believe the first time I saw that stuff was in his letters, which was a continued campaign as opposed to just responding to "Did you serve on this committee or not?" Thank you. Now, moving --

Which this case is about the same thing, too, at this point. The case is -- what? I'm sorry. I didn't hear the last

thing; I was shuffling papers. You wonder sometimes if the campaign is still going. I would agree. With the request for your discovery, in particular, which are mostly irrelevant and -I'm sorry -- what request are you referring to? Well, my campaign literature. table here; it's Jim. My campaign is not on the

My decision is -- and I made it after That's what's relevant here.

reviewing the three items. And we've talked about it.

Did you see the request made on your behalf in your petition by your counsel of Ms. Filkins? Are you going to point it out? I'm asking if you saw it and what was requested for her to bring? I did. Her campaign is in question; mine is not. Okay.

Oh, I see.

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It's -- I know how fairness goes with Interrogatories.

I've

complied with yours and I do feel that it's all irrelevant and you're wasting your time with the paperwork I've given you. Other than it's, you know, political and whatever. I

don't know why you'd want my political stuff, but I gave it to you. Q You've asked; I've complied.

Now, walking through the -- your testimony, did you -- who was on your political committee?

I'm not -- my campaign committee is not relevant. MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: up. What relevance does that have? Because -- all right. Let me back

Q A Q

How do you define Ms. Filkins' campaign committee? We're going to find that out by discovery. No. I'm asking, sitting here now, you have caused to be You have stated in your Verified

filed a Verified Petition. Petition, under oath, -A Q A Yeah; absolutely.

-- that Mr. Blackburn was a member of the committee. Right. He's working with -- he wants to keep working with

the committee. MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: I'm sorry. I'm trying. I know. I know.

I'm trying.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 Q Q A either --

MR. HOMIER:

I know.

The Verified Complaint says

MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER:

Verified Petition. Verified -- now I'm doing it.

Verified Petition alleges that he was either on a political committee or took an active part in the management of -MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: Correct. -- a political campaign. I agree with you. That's what it says. I agree with that.

Who was on Carla Filkins' political committee? We are -- I don't know. there is one. He referred to a committee, so I didn't snoop by

I don't know who's on it.

her house to see who the cars were to find out; I didn't care. I really didn't care. So I don't know who is. I

know who her close friends are, I saw who was walking in her parades, you know, I see where her signs are. case to formally figure that out. We're in the

All I know is he said he So there's a He's defined it

wanted to keep working with the committee. committee out there he was working with.

himself to two different people independently; Rick Charmoli and Marcus Peccia. All right. That's the committee I'm aware of.

You would concede that everyone who is a

supporter or everyone that gives aid or encouragement to a

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candidate is not, in fact, on a political committee for them. You do agree with that?

Obviously supporters and voters, whatever, are not on the committee. There's volunteers that become committee members If

de facto; whether you've appointed them or not.

somebody's putting out 50 signs for me, busting their backside to get me elected, that's a committee member. Those are some actions. That's what he did, I suspect. But he had -I

don't know how many signs he put up. How many signs did he put up? Let's get him under oath and find out. I'm just asking what you know.

I don't know.

That's not been disclosed at this point. All right. committee? You know, it's -- you know, it's like the totality of the circumstances. You gave $500 to Jay Thibet before, you Is everyone who donates money a de facto in the

signed up under a group of endorsers for Gordy Baas, whatever. this. Didn't bother me then, okay? I'm not bothered by

My employees are.

I'm doing this on their behalf. I deal with my critics

It's not for any personal reason. pretty well. of my skin. Who?

They don't -- they don't cause me to jump out Some of them do. One of the does, but -I'm sorry?

Which -- out of your skin?

There's very few people that can get me to jump out of my

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skin.

And when my family is threatened or affected,

you're -- you're going to see it come back at you. All right. And are you accusing someone of that?

It's not relevant at this point. Well, you're bringing it up, Mr. Barnett. I'm just telling you, I don't have a problem with Jim Blackburn -Is that a threat that something's coming back to someone? No. I'm just saying if people bother my family, --

So if Mr. --- I would -- they would -So if Mr. Barnett -- I'm sorry -- it's Mr. -MR. HOMIER: though. If Mr. Blackburn said he's going to deal with something, is that a threat? Yes. And if you say -To an employee, I'm sure. -- you're going to deal with it, or you're going to get back at someone if they are giving you a difficult time, -Yeah; I would --- that's not a threat? -- call the police on them. All right. Let's move on to something relevant,

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A Q A

Okay? Okay. Okay? me.

There's ways to handle things, okay, that are legal.

That's how things get handled if people are harassing

MR. HOMIER:

Are we almost finished?

I mean,

really, we can sit here all day and argue about the last 20 years of bad blood between all of the people in this city. But frankly, it's got nothing to do with this case, so let's get on with it. Q A Who managed Ms. Filkins' campaign? I believe she put in an affidavit that she managed it or Mike Bengelink said he -- that she managed it. who the, quote, unquote, manager was. out John Horrigan to manage it. manager. person. Q A And who was the next person? I don't know. There could be a appointed, a de facto, she's I don't know

I know they sought

So I assume there's a

From that, they passed him and went to the next

put under oath that there was none, or one of those two did. So the questions are not -- I don't know. Q All right. And if she were to testify that she actively

managed it or she and person "x" actively managed it, are you saying she's not telling the truth? A Q How do I know? Thank you.

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I don't have the inside circle of this campaign that was conducted from Carla Filkins' side. I saw what I saw, and

heard what I heard, and made a call on this filing; I believe it was valid. Q A Q A Q A Mr. Broddle, is it? Yup. -- is a newspaper reporter who -Absolutely. -- reported on this at times. No; he -- Rick Charmoli was removed, my understanding is, from covering this story and Mr. Broddle is taking it over. Q Well, tell me about that. How -- I didn't realize that. I I stand by it to this day.

B-r-o-d-d-l-e --

see a -- I see a November 3rd Cadillac newspaper article under a byline of Mr. Broddle. A Q A Okay. You say that Charmoli was removed? Well, I talked to the editor -- I went to the -- I had some discussions with the "Cadillac News" right about this same time about their perceived bias from the public. So I went

down the next Monday or Tuesday and Rick Charmoli stopped me and asked what happened with all those questions I was asking him, because he got pulled into the story. let me know what's going on." "Please I

I said, "Are you asking?"

said, "I'm about ready to" -- "I've made a decision to file a removal." Then I walked in and talked to -- and I said he

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would be a witness.

I walked in, I think on that day and And one of the

talked to Matt Seward for three hours.

things I'm sure I told him was, "I just want to let you know that Jim's contacts with Rick as a reporter have probably brought him into this case." The next thing I know Jeff Jeff Broddle's now So that's my

Broddle is handling -- it's 2 plus 2. handling that particular city matter. perception of what happened. anyone's told me that.

Nobody had -- I don't believe

That's all I asked; I mean, you brought it up. Broddle a personal friend of yours? He used to be.

Is Mr.

I didn't get invited to his wedding.

would still consider him a friend.

But for whatever --

employment reasons or whatever's happened, our social connection is over -- or, it's -- I don't hang out -- I might have gone to the movies with him -- I don't -- I've gone to one concert with him in Interlochen and he got married. He was single and lonely and just, you know, a And I

fish out of water up here from a different city. would consider him a friend; yes. You would con- -However -- yup. Yes, I would.

But something's happened

with the -- with him where he's uncomfortable even talking to me. Okay. And it was well before this case. That was my next question, would you -- this

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distancing -- that's my word, not yours -- has happened, when would you take that back to? A ways; way before his wedding. When was his wedding? I don't recall. It was probably a year or two ago and I I don't -- you know --

wondered why I wasn't invited, but it was none of my business. And he's just --

So it sounds certainly that you're saying from the time of the -- say, last summer, when you've started some of this testimony 2011 to the present, you haven't socialized with him? No; I have not. I used to have a few beers with those guys

at one point, and Charmoli was -- actually I went to two concerts. I went with Rick and just -- Jeff to another one. (Off the record interruption) And that was in Traverse City probably five years ago. my contacts with these guys, almost zero, for whatever reason. You become mayor, and there you go. So

So in a nutshell, you've outlined your reasons why you brought this action and you would be clear that it was not brought out of any personal animosity toward Mr. Blackburn? Absolutely not. And it was not brought out of any personal animosity toward Carla Filkins? Absolutely not.

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Q A

And -I had moved on -- Roger, I had moved on that week. This

thing -- I have a good set of taillights and I don't look back. Okay? I move forward. I had forgotten by Friday I move forward. I

this even happened.

I don't even care.

work 24 hours a day, it seems like. on the move.

I do everything.

I'm

I don't sit and dwell on things, and I'm not My concern came from outside. I acted on

out to get him.

it, I felt I had the facts, I still have them, it's gotten worse since then and we've talked about that. Q As to whomever this person is that expressed some concern, let me back up so I can focus where the case is and move on. Would you agree that the question that is dealt with in your Verified Petition is, number one, whether Mr. Blackburn was a member of the committee of Carla Filkins? question. A I'm not going to make a legal interpretation here. also something on there about good cause. play in, as well. the findings here. Q Well -- all right. So then I'll go to it. You feel that There's That's one

And that could

I'm not the judge that's going to make

there is more involved in this than whether he was a member of the committee or whether he was actively -- or took an active management part in her campaign? A I'll tell you this: The police -- or at least the fire and

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at least one policeman who's written a letter, don't even like him involved in politics, period; even to be speaking out and be active. level. So is it your position that other than the question of whether Mr. Blackburn is -- was actively managing the campaign, or was a member of the committee, there are other -- there's other evidence that would be presented at trial in support of removal, other than to those questions? There's good cause; that's listed in the Verified Petition. It's a dust bin, or -So now we're looking at potentially naming other witnesses from the city or the departments in this suit and bringing them in to testify to issues beyond whether he was on the committee or actively involved in the campaign. your position? I don't know. Well, let's go over -We don't know. We're just starting -- this is discovery. Is that It's driving them to an uncomfortable

That's why I'm asking -I'm guessing that probably could happen, but I don't -- I don't know. Well, no; it's not "probably could," Mr. Barnett. Verified Petition. We have a

We are looking at trying to see what the

issues are, that's why we're here as you have told me many

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times in this deposition.

And now I hear that we have

issues other than whether Mr. Blackburn was actively managing the campaign or on the committee. Okay. What have you heard? Is that --

Is that correct? What have you heard? MR. HOMIER: fairness, -MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: I'm just trying to find out --- the mayor answered your question Well, hang on a minute. In

and said "that could occur" in terms of adding additional witnesses, et cetera, because it's not uncommon for that to occur as a result of discovery that you either amend the complaint, add new witnesses, et cetera. I don't -- I

suppose none of know whether that will happen at this point or not. It depends in large part, I suppose, on discovery. What it says in here is what

And petitions can be amended. it says right now. today. Right? You seem to --

So those are the grounds as we sit here

I don't know. That's what --

-- be quite -- well, let me back up.

You've just said,

"What it says is what it says," which is the Verified Petition, comprising six pages. to; correct? That's what you're pointing

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A Q

Yeah.

It's got its legal basis --

And as of today those are the -- what's in that Verified Petition in those six pages constitute the grounds of the action brought against Mr. Blackburn as of today; correct?

"Constitute the grounds"? statement.

I believe that's a fair

Nothing in there specifically indicates -- I'm sorry. sets out two possible grounds of removal?

That

Three.

There -- it says "good cause" in here, and I'd point

you to paragraph 6, where it says that the mayor or principal executive officer may at any time remove any commissioner for incompetency, dereliction of duty, malfeasance of office or -- here's the -- what I just called "dustbin," but it's some other name, for -- with a broom, you sweep it in, it's a catchall phrase, it says, or any other good cause. Q What other things, at this point, do you consider grounds for removal, other than Mr. Blackburn either sitting on Carla Filkins' committee, or -A That's not what it says, Roger. It says a member of -- a

commissioner may not serve -- you know, I don't know. Q A All right. Tell me the grounds -They're bold. They're in the print.

These are the grounds. That's the bold print.

"Nor any commissioner shall serve on

any political committee or take any" -- "any" -- "any active

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role." I'm sorry -- "any active role"? Yeah. In -"Any active role in" -Go ahead. Okay. "In the management of any" -- "any political

campaign." "In the management of"? Yeah. All right. Now, those, as I'm reading it, seem to state two All

grounds referring to committee and active management. right? That's what it says at this time. Thank you.

Are those the two grounds that you have alleged

in your petition and we are defending? Obviously that's the case. All right. And we've also added paragraph 6, which could almost be anything under good cause that I feel is good cause. All right. Well, let's go to that. I mean, are --

I've given you everything that I removed him for and what's going to come out in discovery may provide other good cause or good cause. But the thrust of this thing is right here; Yes; if that's what

it's the bold print (indicating).

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you're asking for.

Is it going to be limited to that by the I don't know.

time we get to trial?

As of today when you walked in here, the thrust of your complaint, what we're defending, is what is in bold print -Yes. -- in paragraph 6? Correct? That's why --

I would say that's fair. However, --- it was pled that way.

However, as to the future, you're saying that there could be amendments -Yes. -- or something further; you just don't know at this point; is that correct? Yes. A good cause could be his behavior going down to the

police department and interviewing, accosting; whatever happened down there, I guess I'm not sure, -"Accosting"? Well, he went in and started interviewing people. That was "accosting"? Well, you're coming up to them and asking questions, I don't know what happened there other than he said he went down and couldn't find anyone he was a threat to. Are you accusing him of accosting someone? Well, I don't --

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All right.

Let's move on. MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: Well, he used the phrase. I know. But --

He's rambling. -- look. This is our --

What do you want me to do? This is our first deposition; right? Right. So nobody's had the opportunity to

question any of these other witnesses who actually were involved in a lot of these situations. MR. WOTILA: Q A True.

Well, then, since you're looking at other things -I don't know what happened. negative. I apologize if it sounded

I'm just saying when somebody -- the way he was

writing, "Now, Marcus," "Name, Marcus," it didn't seem like he was level-headed and I was concerned that possibly that carried over to the staff. Q Did you tell Marcus at any time that you may have said to people that he may be facing criminal charges -A Q A Q I don't --- by October 30th? No. I'm not out to get him for criminal charges.

Well, I mean, you're putting one interpretation on those e-mails and I'm asking you if at any time by the 31st of

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October had told Marcus, "Maybe -- I'm not sure -- I don't recall exactly, but I might have said something about criminal responsibility." I -- no. All right. You never told Marcus that?

I don't believe I -Thank you.

That conversation never came up. Okay. The only conversation I clearly recall was Amy's, which was, you know, it's in the paper. serious. And she was saying it was

I said, "Well, it's serious to me because I'm the This guy's presented himself --

appointing authority here." Well, I understand that.

-- on the front of the newspaper to the entire community; he's on the committee. Okay. And to Rick Charmoli, an educated individual, who's willing to sign an affidavit that he said he was working with the committee, -Now, --- because he wondered "what's he doing here at the 'Cadillac News' at night?" Why would you come over there? It's going to He's a committee member.

Would you give me -- no; I won't do that now. take forever.

Let me ask Counsel this to bypass it. If this case is going to go beyond

MR. WOTILA:

the two factors that are in paragraph 6 that I identified,

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"actively managed campaign or was on the committee," would you agree that you would give me the names of those other witnesses? Because we only have a preliminary witness list

with no names, so that we could move forward. MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: Yeah; I -Is that fair enough? Yes. Because I don't know that we're

there, and we are in the early stages, and -MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: Yes. -- I can't help defend a man that

says every employee of the City. MR. HOMIER: THE WITNESS: MR. HOMIER: discovery goes. MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: MR. WOTILA: Sure. I mean, I don't know what -Very good. -- may happen, so -Very good. Why don't we take about a I'm just saying, I'm -No problem. In large part it depends how

two- or three-minute break? (Off the record) Given -- the materials you've given me are quite lengthy; I'm not going to go through them, so don't panic. I have

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one or maybe two questions.

But other than the materials

you've presented, do you have any other materials that pertain to this Verified Petition or your allegations? Materials that -And by that, I will define it. -- are relevant? Yeah. Admissible?

By that I mean, for instance, materials given to you

by someone from Carla Filkins; such as e-mails, or anything like that? No. Okay. Not -- no. No e-mails; no letters. What I've given you is I had a big banker's box I don't know.

what I have from my election box.

and I had -- my wife indicated she counted 33,000 e-mails we went through. 33,000? That's what she said. that kind of thing. 10. And it pertained to the election? saved on your hard drive? No; I've got them all saved. But what I have I went from It's a Or just that you have But it was basically back and forth; That was probably a fair --

So it was probably about 3,000 times

basically May to November 17th, as far as e-mails. waste of everyone's time. or under inspection here.

My campaign's not on the hot seat

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Just -- just a question and I'm going to hand you this. don't -- because they aren't numbered, but just one quick question. And I just have a question on the one document

there; I'll ask you what it is. (Witness reviews documents) A Q Yeah. There's something addressed to "Cadillac Citizens," several paragraphs or pages and then a blackout at the bottom. A Q A Q Yup. Who prepared that? This one with the black mark on it? Yes. MR. HOMIER: itself? MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: Who prepared the letter itself. Well, that, we've -- look. We've -Are you talking about the letter

we've redacted some of these documents because frankly it's not relevant to anything -MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: this case. Okay. -- that you've asked for in terms of

So we're prepared to defend that on a motion to

compel if we have to, because -MR. WOTILA: MR. HOMIER: I'm not asking for motions to compel. I know. But you're asking the

identify of somebody who wrote a letter that never intended

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it either to be public, because I don't know, or other contact information. Well, this appears to be something that actually was published or similar to something that was published in the Cadillac newspaper. Is that right? How do you want me to proceed,

THE WITNESS: Michael? MR. HOMIER: question. Yes. Okay.

Well, you can -- you can answer that

And that that was published in the Cadillac paper

went under the signature of Mr. Mellema? Yeah. All right. Did Mr. Mellema -- without asking who, then, did

Mr. Mellema write this letter that you have in front of you? My understanding is his -- he wrote it, so to speak. He has

people -- I don't know that he can type or -- I assume that his lovely significant other, his spouse, was helping him write it or type it out. As I recall, that's the situation. And I stayed out of

I was afforded a copy at some point. that. MR. HOMIER:

I don't know -- just for the record,

I don't know what the redaction was, either, without going back and looking at the original. idea. So I don't -- I have no

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Q A Q A Q

I understand. And that -- yeah. You know an individual named Louis Richardson, Jr.? Uh-huh (affirmative); yes. Mr. Richardson has, from time to time, printed letters to the paper; is that correct?

A Q A Q

Yes. From time to time in strong support of you; is that correct? Yes. And other times criticizing other political figures; is that right?

Yes.

He hasn't done it very much recently and nothing I can

remember since May; I might be wrong. Q A All right. I tell him -- I ask him to not write letters because he gets all wound up and he's got some emotional issues and it's just best he just stay out of it. Q So you would agree that someone that might very actively write a letter in support of you, or a candidate, or go to council in support of your candidate -- it doesn't necessarily mean that they are on that candidate's committee? A Q It depends. All right. MR. WOTILA: I have nothing further. Thanks.

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THE WITNESS: MR. HOMIER:

Thank you. I have nothing.

(Deposition concluded at 2:27 p.m.) -0-0-0-

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