The Evolution of A Lightbridge 16

Telescope Reviews: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16.
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4910402/page/20/view/collapse...
Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt
Submit a Review / Article
Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums
Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu uh, User
You are not logged in. [Login]
Entrance Main Index Search New user Who's Online FAQ Calendar
Equipment Discussions >> Reflectors
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (show all)
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16.

#4910402 - 11/11/11 01:40 PM
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
Reged: 11/14/07 Loc: Jefferson County, Colorado
In June of this year I had the opportunity drive from Denver, Colorado to St. George, Utah. The trek was to buy a wonderful Lightbridge 16 from another astronomer. He had purchased it new from a store in Las Vegas. However, his aperture fever brought him an Obsession 20 shortly after he bought the Lightbridge. So the 16 was left in the garage covered, unused, and alone. I was a lucky man because I got to buy this nearly brand new telescope.
1 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
His additions included an Astrozap light shroud, a Telrad, a set of 3 x 1 lb. Far Point counter weights, 2 x 2 lbs. clip on JMI weights, upgraded Far Point collimation knobs and springs, a JMI deluxe transporter storage kit, and a JMI
2 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
wheely bar cart. All together his additions brought the complete package to over $2500. I got it all for almost half of that. It was a no-brainer and I got in my Kia soul to go pick it up. Yes, it does fit with the back seat folded down. On a side note he also had a digital setting circles push-to computer system mounted on it he was selling too. I had him remove it feeling it was unnecessary for my needs. So that is how it started. I have enjoyed the scope through the summer and fall and really have been stunned by it's essentially out of the box performance. Aperture really does rule. I have forsaken all my other telescopes this summer leaving them sit and wait while I enjoy the Lightbridge. The improvement in views and function of this telescope from my previous Dobsonians is profound. I have enjoyed an Orion XT8 classic and an XT10i. Both were fun to use, modify, and improve. However, out of the box, this 16 smokes them. It is time to modify and improve this one however. I knew all along that this time would come. With all of my scopes and mounts I have loved overhauling, supercharging, modifying, and pimping them out. This one will be equally fun bringing its own set of challenges. That is what this thread is about. The evolution of a Lightbridge.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. Project Galileo]

#4910427 - 11/11/11 02:01 PM
[Re: Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
My need to start the upgrades came from using the LB. After adding a visual Paracorr to the mix I found that I could no longer balance the telescope with it and some of my larger eyepieces. The amount of weight the previous owner had and the telescope came with, 7 pounds, just wasn't enough anymore. I also had a desire to add a larger finder, flock, and maybe add a light shield. All of these additions would add more nose weight so I looked for solutions. Reading about barbells, tow hitches, magnets, lead shot, roofing lead, bungee cords, and even water filled jugs left me with plenty of options. However, the elegant Far Point one pounders I already had that the previous owner popped for had me craving an elegant solution to more weight. The two pound doughnut weights by Far Point that fit over the ones I had were my first choice even though they are crazy pricey. The ability to quickly take them on and off with the twist a of screw made for an adjustable solution I decided was just right for me. I went with the cheapest vendor, ordered a couple, and waited. When they arrived I was disappointed. They were discolored with gold and purple swirling and one even had a huge area of corrosion or grinding that just wasn't going to fit my OCD ways. I know, they are just weights, it will be dark, they are on the bottom of the scope unseen etc. However, for the money I was spending I had hoped they would be silver and new looking to match the other weights I had.
3 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I notified the vendor who immediately sent a return shipping label to replace them. They also told me they would open the replacements before sending to ensure they would be silver. They felt it must have been a bad batch from the maker. I sent them back and waited. I got a call a few days later letting me know that all the other weights they had in stock were also discolored and they felt this was how they were meant to be and had been heat treated. I decided to get a refund on them and go a different route. That got me thinking and catalyzed me to action. It was time to modify, powder coat, flock, and implement my hopes and dreams for this light bucket.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4910465 - 11/11/11 02:24 PM
The first thing I did was start taking the lower assembly apart. I began making piles of parts to go to powder coating and piles waiting the rebuilding. In no time it was apart and I was looking at the primary and its cell. I first noticed that all three mirror retaining clips had not been overtightened. I was pleased. Having read about factory techs over tightening these causing astigmatism had me worried. You could see light underneath all three.
4 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I also saw the typical 6 black silicone smears around the outside of the mirror holding it to the edge of the mirror cell. That was going to have to go! I got a thin sharp knife and began cutting through the blobs one at a time. I felt like I was cutting a cake out of a pan that wasn't greased. After freeing up the edges I lifted up on the edge of the mirror and pulled it free. Looking at the bottom I saw that all three floating supports had stuck to the bottom of the mirror. I expected to find this. In manufacturing they use double sided tape to glue one of the three supports on each trio leaving the other two unstuck. Not very "floating". They pried off easily. I put the mirror away for now and focused on cleaning up the double sided stickers, cell supports, and black silicone.
5 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The double sided stickers peeled off with some effort but by the time I got done with the 18 tabs I had a system down and it was easier. The silicone was tenacious and I ended up using a razor blade scraper to shave as much as I could off of the cell. I left the mirror alone for now. It also had huge gobs of black silicone and stickers on the back. It took as long as a half hour show on tv to get the cell cleaned up.
Post Extras:
Starman1
Vendor

#4910513 - 11/11/11 02:50 PM
Reged: 06/24/03 Loc: Los Angeles
You could simply have had the counterweights powder-coated and they would have been fine. They aren't made of stainless steel, so they would never be the finish of the main weights. On the 16": --the rocker box is too light and flimsy. It needs triangular gussets on the side to prevent some of the shimmies. --the curved indentation in the rocker box where the altitude trunnions ride is too large so the scope rolls back and forth as it goes up and down. thicker felt solves this. --the primary mirror springs are a little weak. changing to stronger springs makes collimation much easier and more stable when the scope is used. This was solved in yours. --the primary mirror is glued to the cell and pinched at the edge. there are simple fixes to this. There is a thread here on CN right now that talks about creating bottom supports for the loose mirror and how to preserve the orientation of the backing triangles. --the poles move in the clamps that hold them, and the screws that hold the end rings on the tube segments move in
6 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
their holes. this is easy to fix with star washers under the screws and knurling the ends of the poles. --the spider cannot be sufficiently tightened to provide collimation stability without dimpling the upper tube section. fender washers will solve this and allow a higher tension on the spider. --the lazy-susan bearing in the bottom moves too easily and tends to move in jerks when it is tightened down. ultimately, teflon on formica is better. --the secondary is glued to the secondary stalk. that's ok, but because the secondary's edge is exposed, it reflects low-angle light. the sides of the secondary need to be blackened. --the poles need to be blackened by painting, shrink-wrap vinyl tubing over them, or pipe insulation. In the newly arriving versions, they are now black. Ditto on the rings on the end of the tube sections. --the scope is top heavy so needs counterweights on the bottom. Many different solutions, here. --the secondary collimation screws are difficult and need to be replaced with, say, Bob's Knobs or similar. --the base won't fit through most doors--it needs to be tipped over and rolled through the door. It could be trimmed in size, or, even better, rebuilt in the traditional manner using plywood. Some of the modifications are already started or done on this scope. I just wanted to add some suggestions on where to go next.
Edited by Starman1 (11/11/11 02:52 PM) Post Extras:
Fireball
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. Starman1]

#4910622 - 11/11/11 03:54 PM
Reged: 03/24/06
On top of the ones Don listed you can - flock the UTA and LTA - add a light dew cap (more counter weights will be needed) - modify the alt brake (I increased the contact area) - reverse the fan and close the back of the tube - add a bigger battery (e.g. motorcycle battery) - mount a handling knob - get some dust caps (e.g. shower caps or the ones from Scopestuff) - Telrad w riser and dew cap, RACI finder, catseyes center marks ... Take a closer look at Sky Captain's and Calibos' LBs - many more mods ...
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4910624 - 11/11/11 03:55 PM
7 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Thanks for your inputs Don. You bring up interesting points about the finish of the weights I had ordered. When looking at the two pound donuts online they look to have the same silver finish and are made of the same steel as the one pounders. Even seeing them on others' scopes online and in person they looked like and I believed them to be made of the same stainless steel used for the one pounders. However, like you pointed out, they are made of different metal and will never have the same finish as the stainless. I could powder coat the new weights too and considered doing just that. However, once you see how I am adding the extra weight I need you will see why I opted to just return the donuts and go a different route. I guess I am posting this information so others can learn about my experiences and make their own choices about the direction to go with their own telescopes. I am aware of the shortcomings, perceived short comings, and urban mythos of the Lightbridge. I have seen or read a thousand posts and threads about how different people have solved or not solved these issues. Stay tuned. This is going to be good.
Post Extras:
Slartibartfast
sage

#4910632 - 11/11/11 04:02 PM
Reged: 05/28/08 Loc: New Jersey
Quote:
Stay tuned. This is going to be good.
I'm following this one!

Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4910633 - 11/11/11 04:02 PM
Reged: 11/14/07 Loc: Jefferson County,
Hi Fireball. Thanks. Again, I know there are many things that can be done. This post isn't about what can be done but more what I am doing, how I did it, and why I made the choices in the modifications of my LB16 and perhaps why I didn't do some modifications that others have done. Sometimes I will be cloning other fixes, other times I plan on
8 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Colorado
doing it differently, and in other cases I am not doing anything. Stay tuned! In all of this I hope everyone can see my love of this hobby, my love of tinkering, and my love of sharing. When I was a newer astronomer, and even now, I love reading threads about other people getting new scopes, improving them, and using them. I vicariously get to experience so many different telescopes and equipment this way. I hope sharing my LB16 will inspire other LB owners to do their own thing and entertain those who have never played with one.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4910722 - 11/11/11 04:51 PM
Now that I had the mirror free of the restrictive silicone on the sides, had freed up the sticky double sided tape on the back, and the mirror cell was cleaned up it was time to improve it. First was to fashion new pads for the mirror to "float" on. I wanted to have the mirror glide as freely as possible as is best. Cork is used by many but I felt that it may be to "grabby" on the back. Felt sliders have also been used with moderate success. Heck, doing nothing at all and letting the mirror rest directly on the cell is an option some well respected astronomers I hold in high esteem have done. I opted for a UHMW answer. When I was improving my CGEM there was an issue of stiction between the mount and the tripod. When adjusting the alt/az screws the roughish surface coatings made it almost impossible to make fine adjustments. I found a product called Slick Strips that others here have used to free up the stickiness. I placed it on the tripod and it allowed the mount above to glide nicely. I had some left over and decided it was just the thing. Slick Stips is basically UHMW (Ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene) with a pressure sensitive adhesive tape backing. There is a lot of information about Slick Strips and UHMW online but here is a highlight of this space age stuff. Slick Strips reduce friction on all surfaces. Wherever you need to increase sliding action on metal, wood, concrete, tile, glass, stone or other surfaces - you're going to love what Slick Strips do for you. Brilliant! The idea is that you either put the "Slick Strip" on the ITEM or the SURFACE to create slickness. If you put the Slick Strip on BOTH, you get extreme slickness. Mounting is done via a pressure sensitive adhesive, velcro strips, or mechanical fasteners. It is available from business card thickness to 8" thick. Widths are from 1/2" to 24" in the thin guage, and up to 48"+ on thicker.
9 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The natural color is white, and colors are available, as well as printing on the surface. Additives can be for UV, oil filled, anti-stat for electronics, conductive for electrical apps, ceramic filling, etc etc. You can machine it, saw it, and even die-cut thinner pieces. It's also great as a protector, bumper, industrial cutting surface, wear protector, chute liner..... and is similar to the material on a ski or snowboard bottom (known as P-tex). People have lined the inside of cement mixers, lined gravel chutes in mining operations, put wear strips under moving chains, bumpers on the corners of storage facilities, and even created a dock bumper for aircraft carriers at North Island Naval Air Station in San Diego (this was 6" thick, 24" high, and well, as long as a carrier). Slick Strip property information and advantages offered:
-The highest abrasion resistance of any thermoplastic polymer -Outstanding impact strength even at very low temperatures -An excellent sliding material due to the low coefficient of friction -Self-lubricating (non-caking and sticking) -Sound dampening properties -Good chemical and stress cracking resistance -Easily machined -FDA and USDA approved -15 times more resistant to abrasion than carbon steel. Slick Strip has a long list of properties that make it ideal for applications in a wide range of fields. It combines the greatest impact strength of any thermoplastic, with a low coefficient of friction and tremendous abrasion resistance. It is extremely stable in temperatures ranging from 220o F, down to cryogenic lows. It is an excellent electric insulator, and is easily machined, punched, sawed, and drilled. The low coefficient of friction, tremendous abrasion resistance, and non-absorbing nature of Slick Strip makes for an outstanding running surface for snowboards and skis. Its impact resistance and machinability allow for Slick Strip to be used as tip fill and sidewalls, and the bondability and light weight makes for a great top sheet. Similar requirements are creating new opportunities for Slick Strip in the wakeboard and kite board industries. Slick Strips can be supplied with an adhesive on one side for use as a buzz, squeak and rattle tape (BSR) in the automotive industry. These tapes are also used in the furniture, appliance and material handling industries. Slick Strip tapes and films can be die cut into washers, gaskets and various other wear parts for use in machinery components, and countless other anti-friction / anti-wear applications. Its coefficient of friction is significantly lower than that of nylon and acetal, and is comparable to that of polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon), but UHMW has better abrasion resistance than PTFE.
10 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
So...I used it again.
I got to say "space age". Pretty cool.

Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4910744 - 11/11/11 04:59 PM
First I cleaned off each spot the Slick Strip pads were going to be placed with an alcohol swab. I cut the Slick Stips into, well, strips. In the second picture I peeled back the adhesive backing protective paper so you can see what it looks like. The UHMW is only 0.10" thick, about as thick as a credit card.
11 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I used a punch we had around the house to cut circle pads. The product had no deformation from the punching and made perfect little flat pads. I peeled the back off and stuck each on the mirror supports. This is very sticky stuff and I think it will not go anywhere. Be careful placing it. Once it is in place and pressed down it is hard to take off and move. I am well pleased. I have enough left over to cut into 3/4" strips... wait... ...I am getting ahead of myself.
Post Extras:
B. Cook
super member

#4910773 - 11/11/11 05:17 PM
Reged: 10/18/10 Loc: Burson Ca.
This whole thread should be sent to Meade if it would do any good to help maybe improve the product.
Post Extras:
GeneT
Ely Kid

#4910892 - 11/11/11 06:34 PM
12 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Reged: 11/07/08 Loc: South Texas
You got a great deal price wise. One small input: I found PVC pipe filled with BB's to be a good solution to add weight to achieve balance. The pipe can be cut to variety sizes, and filled with various amounts of BB's. I achieved balance for my 12.5 inch Portaball by using wrap around ankle weights. They come in 1.5 pound sections. You can cut them to any size/weight you want. They nicely lay flat where ever placed.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. GeneT]

#4910909 - 11/11/11 06:44 PM
Reged: 11/14/07
Great ideas Gene! I love how inventive and creative people are at solving their telescopic challenges.
Loc: Jefferson County, Colorado Post Extras:
Starman1
Vendor

#4910946 - 11/11/11 07:07 PM
The altitude balance problem is solved by: --a chain attached to the bottom of the mirror box--as the scope goes lower, more chain is lifted off the ground. This, of course, only works with one weight of eyepiece and is a little too "Hamlet" --a spring joining the rocker box and the back of the altitude trunnion. As the scope goes lower, the spring is stretched, providing lift. --counterweights (too many different types to mention, but I like the sliding ones because they have variable effects for different weight eyepieces and different altitudes of pointing. --matching eyepiece weights using heavy adapters or even clip-on weights for the UTA. My own scope uses 5 lbs on the bottom of the mirror box for the 21 Ethos when pointed below 15 degrees, but has zero counterweight when the same eyepiece is pointed at 75 degrees, and I use a 2 lb counterweight on the UTA when the 8 Ethos is pointed above 75 degrees. That is an annoying, but necessary, part of using a dob. I understand that using an altitude trunnion diameter 1.5X or more the diameter of the mirror educes this sensitivity, but then you are talking a completely custom-made scope. Adding drag to the altitude action is not a solution.
Post Extras:
13 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4911395 - 11/12/11 03:43 AM
Its cloudy. I spent the night researching fans again. I was thinking about upgrading to a more powerful and more quiet/vibration free fan. I don't think the stock one is a bad one nor do I think it is underpowered for the task. At the eyepiece I have never noticed vibration one from the stock, unmarked, indistinguishable, generic, boring, mundane, regular, ho-hum fan. Even at higher magnifications it didn't vibrate. Its just that I got to reading about them in the ATM section, linked to another website or two and another forum or two, read this and that, and found out there is some amazing technology being used in the quietest and most advanced fans. I fell in love with what is one of the consensus "best" fans. The descriptions, science, data sheets, technology, and reviews all had me impressed and mesmerized. Heck, the darn thing even looked cool. So I went shopping out of curiosity. Then I found out how inexpensive that cool space age technology is. I did spend most of today tinkering on some special things for the rear of the scope and it would look so good and match so well. Of course function over form, right? However, this fun little powerful and quiet fan did function amazingly. My internal gadget geek was well pleased. I pulled the trigger on it. I am lighter $27 and it will be here in a few days. Stop by next week and see which one I fell in love with and why. How is that for a cliff hanger?
I got to say "space age" again.

Post Extras:
Starman1
Vendor

#4911711 - 11/12/11 10:31 AM
Anybody who researches each component as thoroughly should read about "belleville springs". They are THE solution to spring issues because: --you can make them stiffer with the addition of an additional washer, so you can tailor the stiffness to your taste --they can be quite stiff, yet short--perfect for the LightBridge --they don't suffer from lateral squirm.
14 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
--they don't lose effectiveness over time --they take up very little lateral space in high-load capacities, unlike coil springs.
Post Extras:
careysub
sage

#4911812 - 11/12/11 11:18 AM
Reged: 02/18/11 Loc: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Quote:
... I fell in love with what is one of the consensus "best" fans. The descriptions, science, data sheets, technology, and reviews all had me impressed and mesmerized. Heck, the darn thing even looked cool. So I went shopping out of curiosity. Then I found out how inexpensive that cool space age technology is. I did spend most of today tinkering on some special things for the rear of the scope and it would look so good and match so well. Of course function over form, right? However, this fun little powerful and quiet fan did function amazingly. My internal gadget geek was well pleased. I pulled the trigger on it. I am lighter $27 and it will be here in a few days...
So... what did you buy? We are all in suspense. I am a bit of a "fan fan" (having evaluated many computer case fans for computers). If using a computer case fan I strongly recommend Scythe fans -- they are high tech (the blades look like jet turbine fans), efficient, silent, vibration free, and extremely reliable (you will never use you scope enough to wear them out).
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. careysub]

#4913746 - 11/13/11 12:31 PM
So, the weekend had me tinkering again. It has been such a joy working with this telescope. The mirror cell needed to be finished! So, here is what I did. Edge support is a big deal. Most of what I learned I have learned from Cloudy Nights discussions and how-to threads. Many of them all end up linking to the Dobsonian Mirror Edge Support Calculator at Edge Calculator. What a neat and
15 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
helpful tool. There is also a great discussion on edge support methods and some pics I found very helpful on this page. As I understand things I need to have the least amount of friction against the mirror's back and edge so it can float and adjust thermally. I also need to support the side of the mirror at the center of gravity and at just the right places to impart the smallest amount of surface deformation possible. Mirror cells should generate surface errors low enough to not be detectable by the eye if possible. RMS Surface Errors that do occur should measure at a value of 5 nm or below. This corresponds to a virtually perfect edge support. A 5 nm RMS astigmatism is indistinguishable from perfection to our eyes. Check out the pictures on the link above. The way this LB16's mirror was glued and sticky tape stuck in the cell I can only imagine how much crazy deformation was happening. The calculator shows that gluing this mirror into an 18 point cell generates an RMS surface error of 14.2 nm. That much astigmatism can be seen by an average viewer. The severe factory gluing of the LB can only be causing worse too. Not acceptable. However, to just put it back in and let it rest against the cork on the metal edge supports is a no-no too. The Obsession web site says of metal edge support, "Rigid edge supports deform the glass causing astigmatic images. (especially with 1.60 inch ulta-thin mirrors). As the scope is rotated downwards the glass is deformed more and more from the metal supports. These deleterious effects have been proven with interferometric analysis." The best edge support is the sling method and playing with the calculator shows how much. Another very acceptable edge support I have seen done would be two ball bearing roller supports at the center of gravity (COG) of the mirror placed at 45 degrees from vertical and 90 degrees to each other. After plugging in the numbers to the edge calculator it shows 90 degree edge support with bearings gives 1.2 nm reduction of Strehl Ratio. The sling gives 0.5 btw. Once again the calculator shows how effective the 90 degree edge support method is. It is well within the 5 nm limit. So, how can I best or closest achieve the lowest level of edge support in this LB16's cell? The sling is out with this cell without major mods I don't have the know how to do. I didn't feel like I wanted to go into the more involved modifications necessary to add bearings like I have seen done. However, I may save that mod for another day. I went with a 90 edge support using nylon screws instead of bearings. First I measured and marked the side of the mirror's COG as per the calculator.
16 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Then I placed the mirror in the cell, adjusted all the supports, and centered it. I then marked on the side of the cell where the COG struck the metal edge of the support. This is where I planned to drill and tap a hole for the nylon screw. This was the first time I had the mirror in the cell since adding the UHMW pads. I have to say I am well pleased. I had to give minimal pressure to adjust the mirror around on the pads from side to side. The mirror glides very nicely on the pads.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4913775 - 11/13/11 12:56 PM
Once I marked the COG on the metal edge I set and drilled a hole in the side so I could tap new threads. A tap and some lubricating oil had me in business soon. Be careful. It is an aluminum cell and is very soft and easy to work with. I opted for a 10/24 screw size so I had many threads in the thinner metal cell side.
17 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
In the close up picture you can see the hole I drilled is 2.5 mm below the COG mark above it. I chose to back up the support to allow for more metal at the lip of the hole and cell. I felt I would be drilling and tapping a hole too close to the edge using the true COG. The Edge Support Calculator showed that by changing the support position relative to the COG 1/20th of the mirror thickness (2.5 mm in my case) it would change the RMS Surface Error to 3.3 nm. Still within the 5 nm goal and undetectable with the eye. I opted to move the screw in trade for more strength. The new 10/24 nylon screws fit perfectly. I will round and smooth the tips of the screws to lower their friction on the mirror's edge too. Finally, I will use left over UHMW tape pads stuck to the side of the mirror where it contacts the nylon screws to lower friction even more.
18 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Ta da! Mirror cell improved and done for now!

Post Extras:
Starman1
Vendor

#4913809 - 11/13/11 01:10 PM
If you install altitude stops on your altitude trunnions to prevent the scope from ever going below, say, an altitude of 5 degrees, you can dispense with the mirror clips entirely and reduce whatever diffraction they cause. Because the mirror will not tip forward out of the cell if the scope cannot go to horizontal or below. I've seen these stops installed as small blocks or even screws that are attached to the altitude trunnions so they hit the rocker box at the appropriate moment to prevent the scope from diving into the dirt. Should the need ever arise to look below that 5 degree altitude (unlikely), you can simply tip the base slightly from horizontal by putting a spacer under one of the base's feet.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4913837 - 11/13/11 01:22 PM
19 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Interesting solution Don. I find that tall trees limit me from moving my telescope low enough to tip my mirror. In fact that is kind of why I didn't stress about bearings vs. nylon screws for side supports at 45 and 45. My mirror rarely takes much of a side load. Most of my viewing is well above 45 degrees. I also leave a thin paper sized gap between my clips and mirror. The clips just don't come into play or cause astigmatisms for me.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4914435 - 11/13/11 07:57 PM
It was another day of playing in the shop and creating. Today's focus was boundary layers, mirror cooling, and fan configurations. I have decided to have a pulling fan configuration with a Mauro da Lio baffle. The reasons are well explained here and experimented on here. I was persuaded to use this technique not only by reading and seeing the laminar flow studies but also by watching some YouTube fan smoke test videos. If you haven't peeked at them do so. In the videos an astronomer experiments with smoke and fans and different set ups. Powerful and compelling. Seeing is believing. It is all smoke and mirrors, right? Sealing off the rear of the tube was first on the agenda. Having seen a million ways to do this I pondered my own ideas. At first I thought about making the rear tube seal out of 1/4" plywood. There is a recess on the back of the LB16 that would be perfect for this. However, I couldn't find a piece of 1/4" plywood anywhere that wasn't warped enough to make it unusable. I also figured over time warping may make the part I fashioned unusable. I pondered plastic, plexiglass, and Lexan and even started to look for a supplier. Then it hit me. Make it out of metal! Lightbridge's are notorious for being nose heavy. The bearings are misplaced and undersized sadly. Using even modest eyepieces can tip the scales sending the nose to the ground. Adding Paracorrs, big eyepieces, large finders, or any accessories quickly can create massive imbalance. Meade offers a friction break to help with this problem. I hate it, don't use it, and am of the school that if the scope was properly balanced friction breaks are unneeded. Astronomers easily fix this nose heavy tendency by adding rear weight. In my set up I always have three pounds of Far Point weights and four pounds of JMI weights attached, seven pounds total, no matter what I am doing. I have often found myself holding up the UTA a bit to adjust for imbalance. I just don't have enough extra weight in the rear for my balancing needs. Adding more accessories is out of the question without doing something and the new Paracorr put me over the limit permanently. That was the genesis of ordering those add-on weights I mentioned earlier in the thread.
20 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Today I wasn't planning on addressing balance issues, I was going to make a rear tube seal. However, 1/8" steel is 5.01 lbs/sq ft. If I made the rear seal 1.5' across it would be approximately 8 pounds. Cut out the center for a fan, punch and drill some holes for mounting and collimation knobs and the rear seal would weigh around 7.5-8 lbs. I would solve two problems with one solution. I had a piece of scrap laying around that would work perfectly. It was measured, then cut, and the edges got a little grinding to smooth them out.
21 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
22 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
23 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
#4914454 - 11/13/11 08:07 PM Reged: 11/14/07 Loc: Jefferson County, Colorado
The new part fits just inside the recessed back of the cast rear piece. Now I needed to drill some holes. My buddy Shane just got a cool punch, cutter, huge machine thing in his shop. I called him up, told him my needs, and was on the way to his garage in minutes. I have no idea what this is called but it has ridiculous power and looks cool.
24 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
25 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The two parts were lined up, clamped together, and the center of each of the holes was marked. Shane put in the proper die to his punch machine, lined up the marks, and punched the cleanest, most precise holes possible. Wow, was this machine fun. The result is a great looking part coming to life.
26 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
27 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
28 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
A quick dry fitting shows how the rear of the scope will look and how the new part fits. It weighs 7.5 lbs. Perfection!
29 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4914493 - 11/13/11 08:30 PM
I laid the new part down and started doing dot-to-dot lines with the punched holes creating a cool geometric pattern. I was looking for aesthetic positions to drill holes. After standing back and trying a few ideas out I decided upon two of the points that looked promising. I marked the spots and used a nail to set some places to drill.
30 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
31 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Out to the drill press I went and two holes were made.
32 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
33 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Once I had the holes done I was able to fit some electronic parts to the rear. I added a 2.1 mm DC power jack socket for the fan wiring and a tiny dim LED to come on when the fan is powered on. I figured with the super quiet fan I ordered it would be hard to tell if it was on. A small indicator light would be nice. So...
34 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
35 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
...it works like a charm even if it is only test fitted for now. The LED is very dim and will not come into play with scattered light problems. I even like the symmetry of the placement. Now it is time to add this rear tube seal to the pile of parts going to the powder coater.
36 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Very auspicious. I am pleased.
37 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
38 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Now I am pondering the Mauro da Lio baffle. What should I make it out of? What have you all made one from? Metal? Plastic? Wood? Cardboard? Thoughts? Ideas?
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4915236 - 11/14/11 10:36 AM
Off to powder coating today.
39 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Slartibartfast
sage
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
40 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
#4915259 - 11/14/11 10:52 AM Reged: 05/28/08 Loc: New Jersey
Doc,
Quote:
The best edge support is the sling method and playing with the calculator shows how much. Another very acceptable edge support I have seen done would be two ball bearing roller supports at the center of gravity (COG) of the mirror placed at 45 degrees from vertical and 90 degrees to each other. After plugging in the numbers to the edge calculator it shows 90 degree edge support with bearings gives 1.2 nm reduction of Strehl Ratio. The sling gives 0.5 btw. Once again the calculator shows how effective the 90 degree edge support method is. It is well within the 5 nm limit. So, how can I best or closest achieve the lowest level of edge support in this LB16's cell? The sling is out with this cell without major mods I don't have the know how to do. I didn't feel like I wanted to go into the more involved modifications necessary to add bearings like I have seen done. However, I may save that mod for another day. I went with a 90 edge support using nylon screws instead of bearings.
I went through this exact line of thinking back in January when I took my mirror cell apart and freed the mirror. I went with the nylon screws at 90 deg. as well.
Quote:
In the close up picture you can see the hole I drilled is 2.5 mm below the COG mark above it. I chose to back up the support to allow for more metal at the lip of the hole and cell. I felt I would be drilling and tapping a hole too close to the edge using the true COG.
I ran into this exact issue as well. By not having any pads on the support triangle posts, the mirror rests far enough back in the cell ring that I had plenty of "lip" left to drill and tap a hole not too close to the edge. But, the price I paid is that I can not use something like the Slik Strip pads you describe. I figure it is "good enough" for now and the views are good. If I ever upgrade the mirror, I might think of reassessing the mirror cell. But, this is the beauty of
41 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
these Lightbridges: you can upgrade them in stages at your leisure. It would be very cool if Scope Stuff or some 3rd party upgrade vendor came out with a retro-fit wiffle tree add-on or sling add-on for the Lightbridge 16. This is a great thread. Thanks for the links to the fan smoke tests! Very enlightening. I have no advice or suggestions about fan baffling/boundary layer scrubbing as that is a part of the scope that I have not touched yet. I'm watching to see how yours turns out. Great idea using the heavy plate steel to double as tail weight. (I'm using 12 lbs of JMI clip-ons to counter-balance all the stuff on my front end). Thanks for taking the time to post all of this!
Post Extras:
Slartibartfast
sage

#4915270 - 11/14/11 10:57 AM
Quote:
Off to powder coating today.
If you don't mind me asking, how did you go about finding a paint shop that would take on a small job like this? And, how much would one expect a job like this to cost? (Getting mine done is on my to-do list as well, eventually).
Post Extras:
Starman1
Vendor
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. Slartibartfast]

#4915301 - 11/14/11 11:17 AM
Some communications with another LB owner: "Some solutions: 1) magnetic counterweights (speaker magnets, magnetic sheets, etc.) 2) small bag of lead shot attached to velcro strip on scope. You can move it up and down as the weight of the eyepieces or the altitude of the scope varies. 3) spring counterweight (spring attached to rocker box and altitude trunnion and is stretched the lower the scope
42 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
goes) also known as a virtual counterweight. 4) stainless clip-on weights from JMI 5) stainless bolt-on weights from FarPoint 6) piece of large chain hanging off bottom of scope--the lower the scope points, the more chain is lifted off the ground. 7) adding additional friction to altitude bearing (as with the side "brake" on the LB scopes). Since objects in the deep south only move across the sky, that works fine since you aren't moving the scope up and down much, only laterally. You shouldn't ever look anywhere else in the sky that close to the horizon. 8) a sliding weight system attached to the outside of the mirror box (this is the solution I use) 9) a fanny pack filled with nuts and bolts strapped around the LTA. 10) Diver's weights added to the bottom of the LTA. 11) barbell weights added to the LTA on a hook or pin attached there permanently. Easy on and off. Many, many solutions. It is useful to have such a solution because eyepieces vary from 2 oz to 48 oz. You can't balance both at the same time." and "Magnetic weights: Maybe a place that repairs speakers, or, probably cheaper, on-line. Though magnets can be any form--you could try Home Depot or Lowe's. You want 2 to 5 lbs. each. Some eyepieces won't need a weight. Others may need a weight near the center of altitude axis or slightly below that, while other eyepieces will need all 5 lbs (or more) at the bottom of the LTA. Having 2 weights would give you more versatility than having one large weight." There are many pictures on the web of creative counterweighting solutions. The primary issue is that of variability in counterweighting need according to altitude of pointing. I have found it isn't even possible to completely balance one eyepiece weight at every altitude, and it certainly isn't possible with multiple different weights of eyepieces. I use a sliding weight on the mirror box and I even hang an extra weight on the UTA when the telescope points high. I've grown so used to adjusting the weights that I've not really looked into dynamically balancing the scope perfectly, though it could be done for one weight of eyepiece. Then the sliding counterweight would be all that's necessary for the heavier eyepieces. Balancing is an issue that is the bane of the dobsonian design. It is possible to balance the scope so the center of gravity is exactly mid-tube on the altitude axis using standard accessories, but it is never commercially done. Some makers ignore the balancing because the friction in their scopes' movement is so high that balancing is a minor issue, while other makers' scopes are so large the difference in weights of eyepieces are negligible. But if the scope moves easily and freely on its axes, balancing will enter the picture. Then we are free to creatively approach the subject.
43 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
My only fear is that the addition of a large steel plate to the bottom of the 16" LB will help at low altitudes while making the scope bottom heavy at higher altitudes. Of course, those clip-on weights could be added to the UTA as needed, eh?
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4915399 - 11/14/11 12:12 PM
Bart: I have seen your threads and solutions to the LB. I have admired your work and was inspired by your nylon screw solution. I agree it would be way cool for someone to engineer and make an after market LB mirror sling or wiffle tree. As far as finding a powder coater it was just luck for me. I had some powder coating needs a few years ago and looked him up online. He does car parts, and all kinds of custom stuff. He never blinked at my needs that last time I had him powder coat my LXD75 during its hypertuning. Here are some pictures.
44 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Don: It is amazing how many ways there are to skin a cat when it comes to Dob weighting. I am less worried about becoming tail heavy while pointing more upwards with the new plate. I have used the telescope most of the year with 7 pounds on all the time and it just didn't develop that problem and I have craved more poundage. It will all balance out eventually.
Post Extras:
Slartibartfast
sage

#4915469 - 11/14/11 12:38 PM
Reged: 05/28/08
Doc,
45 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Loc: New Jersey
That's a really nice looking paint job on the LXD75. Looks like your rings and accessories are in good hands! Don,
Quote:
I have found it isn't even possible to completely balance one eyepiece weight at every altitude, and it certainly isn't possible with multiple different weights of eyepieces. [...] Some makers ignore the balancing because the friction in their scopes' movement is so high that balancing is a minor issue, while other makers' scopes are so large the difference in weights of eyepieces are negligible. But if the scope moves easily and freely on its axes, balancing will enter the picture.
This is all so very true! I have found with 12 lbs counterweights, the aluminum ALT bearing riding on felt (lots of friction) and the size and weight of the tube assembly (heavy with the added weight of the counterweights) I have been able to balance all eyepiece combinations at all altitudes (even the Nagler 31mm). But, the price I pay is the stiction in the movements. At 366x with the Nagler 5mm, it is difficult to keep a planet in the center of the FOV (not impossible, but difficult). I have the Ebony Star strips and Teflon pads to redo the ALT bearings, but, I'm a little bit hesitant to make that mod for fear of losing that friction and introducing an imbalance. The tradeoff is smoothness and better tracking at high powers for more picky balance issues. Personally, I don't know if I'm ready to play around with this mod yet.
Post Extras:
orionthegreat
member

#4915953 - 11/14/11 05:19 PM
Reged: 11/12/11 Loc: new york
you know i was never a fan of dobs but i will admit the obsession dob is one hell of a scope i had a look with one last week and im still in ahh.
Post Extras:
Bob Myler
scholastic sledgehammer
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. orionthegreat]

#4916418 - 11/14/11 10:04 PM
Reged: 05/18/06
Be careful with speaker weights. They are POWERFUL. I use them on my steel LTA. Even the lightweight ones can
46 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
give you a nasty finger-pinch when "stacking"

Loc: St Louis, MO Post Extras:
ThreeD
professor emeritus

#4916564 - 11/15/11 12:18 AM
Reged: 12/23/08 Loc: Sacramento suburbs
Quote:
Now I am pondering the Mauro da Lio baffle. What should I make it out of? What have you all made one from? Metal? Plastic? Wood? Cardboard? Thoughts? Ideas?
I used ABS sheeting to which I applied some protostar flocking.

Post Extras:
sixela
Postmaster

#4917059 - 11/15/11 11:20 AM
Reged: 12/23/04 Loc: Boechout, Belgium
Quote:
A quick dry fitting shows how the rear of the scope will look and how the new part fits. It weighs 7.5 lbs. Perfection!
The rigidity of the connection from the fan to the baffle has me slightly worried (I've seen scopes where over 300x of magnification shows the vibrations). If I were you, I'd get a Noisbelocker Multiframe with silicone corners instead if you don't want to change this.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16.

#4917606 - 11/15/11 05:33 PM
[Re: sixela]
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
Reged: 11/14/07
Sixela, Shhhhhhh. You are going to spoil the surprise. I also was going to use a sticky sided felt "gasket" around the edge of the plate and the cast piece to add a layer of vibration resistance too.
47 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4917618 - 11/15/11 05:40 PM
Reged: 11/14/07
ABS and flocking. Great idea!

Aperturefever
member

#4925177 - 11/19/11 10:39 PM
Reged: 12/12/10 Loc: Lake Macquarie, Australia
Nice modding, Doc. Looking forward to seeing the powdercoating. I'm putting in the same baffle but I'm wondering if I can somehow have a reversible fan - to blow onto the mirror and get the temperature down quickly, then switch it to pulling air out to scrub the mirror. I don't know if reversing the fan electrically is a no-no, or if I should be thinking about a quick-lock system where I can turn the fan around manually ...
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. Aperturefever]

#4925705 - 11/20/11 09:28 AM
With the parts at the powder coater's progress modding the LB has stalled a bit. I ordered flocking from Scopestuff and the new fan came. I expect the parts should be done tomorrow or the next day.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4928231 - 11/21/11 05:16 PM
Today I find myself pondering Hofstadter's law. I am always amazed at the difficulty of accurately estimating the time it will take to complete tasks of any substantial complexity. I am waiting for things that are taking longer than planned. I did just get a call from the powder coater however. I will pick the parts up later today. Woot!
Post Extras:
48 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4929152 - 11/22/11 08:47 AM
I was able to pick up the parts with their new powder coating. They look amazing. As is the way of things I cannot get to the rebuild yet however. Thanksgiving travel plans keep me from it. For now my project waits. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
49 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Slartibartfast
sage
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
50 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Doc, Looking great! How thick is the layer of powder coat? Is it thick enough to interfere with the re-fitting of the parts (re-threading of screws, etc.)? Also, has anyone tried picking up can of Krylon flat-black spray paint (or similar) and just spray painting the parts?
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4938399 - 11/27/11 11:15 PM
Bart, the threads of all parts are protected at the powder coater's. He uses silicon plugs to fill them all so they stay pristine. Everything went together perfectly. I think it is just a matter of choice as to how to blacken the parts. I have seen many paint them, some flock, and others powder coat. I chose powder coating for its durability over paint. I also have a great connection with a powder coater so it makes the cost well worth it. I got to tinker a bit today and put the truss poles and rims back together. Everything went together flawlessly. I am very pleased with how flat and deep black the parts are now. I picked up some star washers to lock the upper truss pole screws to remove any wobble. This is common fix I have seen to improve the truss pole rigidity and thus improve collimation stability. I cannot say this was a huge problem with my scope but was such an easy modification I went ahead and did it.
51 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
52 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
53 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I painted the fan screws and the fender washers I will be using on the spider. I used a flat black. I wanted to have the part of the screw that showed match the flat black of the powder coat.
54 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
55 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
56 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I found some neoprene foam with adhesive backing at the hobby store. I used it to make a gasket for the back of the new part I made. I wanted to maximize the effectiveness of the fan by sealing any leaks along the back. This will ensure 100% of the fan's efforts will be to pull down air from the tube and to evenly cool the mirror. It will also keep the parts from grinding and scratching on each other. The strength of this product is amazing. I was able to cut it easily with scissors. I used the inside of the cast back piece as a guide and traced it onto the back of the neoprene. Then I cut out a thin a thin strip for the gasket.
57 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
58 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The back peeled of easily and the stickiness is great. Once placed this is very stuck on. It made a great gasket. Then I reinstalled the fan power LED and the fan's power plug. As you can see I also marked, set, and drilled holes
59 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
for the fan.
60 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
cheapersleeper
Carpal Tunnel
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
61 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
#4938430 - 11/27/11 11:48 PM Reged: 01/22/10 Loc: Sachse TX
Coming our very nice looking...

Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4938444 - 11/28/11 12:04 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen, drum roll please. Introducing my new fan. I chose the Noiseblocker NB-Multiframe S Series . The model I selected is the M12-S3HS pushing 73 cmf. I estimate this will turn over the volume of air inside the entire tube with the shroud on about twice every minute. The Multiframe S series is the first fan with a vibration-free fan frame and incorporates numerous other improvements, so that it is superior to standard fans in almost all aspects. It is a crazy cool fan with space age technology. Check out their product info. Neat stuff to a gadget geek such as I. It came with a silicone gasket and attachment screws and all necessary wires. I got to say "space age" again. I love this hobby.
62 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
63 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The gasket fit perfectly and created a nice seal once installed on the fan. The corner mounts of this fan are silicone and really will dampen any possible vibrations. It soldered together neatly and has a nice wire wrap that give a great polished look.
64 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
65 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I opted to fit the fan on the inside of the new rear seal. From the rear of the scope I think the simplicity draws attention to the diameter of the telescope making it look bigger. I like how it looks.
66 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
67 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
68 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
#4938476 - 11/28/11 12:38 AM Reged: 11/14/07 Loc: Jefferson County, Colorado
I had left over neoprene so I cut out some gaskets for the bottom of the weights to prevent scratching. This is some really strong stuff. I anticipate it will be very durable. Fit together it all is very tight. Me likey.
69 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
70 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I cut some 1" dowel I had on hand into 2, 1/2" blocks, painted them flat black, and epoxied them onto the inside of the new seal. I put them 90 degrees apart and 45 degree from vertical to maximize their supporting abilities. I think the neoprene gasket's friction and the weights' bolts will hold the new rear seal in place. Just in case I wanted to
71 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
have these inside support blocks to keep the plate from shifting over time. More importantly these blocks primarily will act as guides when removing and replacing the rear seal. I want to have easy access to the rear of the cell to periodically check the cell's floats positions. This will make handling the rear cell and repositioning it to bolt back on a snap.
72 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
73 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The rear cell is almost complete! It is looking so good with the all black motif. I cut pieces of electric tape to use as seals for the now unused holes for the three legs and the old power plug. The rear is now completely sealed and the fan will be as efficient as possible.
74 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
75 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
76 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The first owner made some collimation thumb screws. I never liked them much and the business end was too flat and uneven to be helpful. It used to be a chore to get them just right. So I made a call to Scopestuff and ordered their replacement knobs. They came with a nice set of instructions and look nice.
77 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
78 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
In the first picture from the side you can see a real difference in the profile of the previous bolt on the right to the Scopestuff bolts to the left. I still wasn't satisfied so filed them a bit more and the second side picture shows the result. These will be much more sensitive to adjustments.
79 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
80 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I like how the new bolts look and they are a huge improvement to what I had. I also noticed the spider's vanes were loose. A quick adjustment with a screwdriver have them ready to reinstall.
81 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
82 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
SteveG
Carpal Tunnel
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
83 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
#4939290 - 11/28/11 02:30 PM Reged: 09/27/06 Loc: Seattle, WA
Looking really nice! You're doing all the mod's I've done to my 10" LB. This is going to be a fantastic lifetime scope.
Post Extras:
Aperturefever
member
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. SteveG]

#4941858 - 11/29/11 11:24 PM
Reged: 12/12/10 Loc: Lake Macquarie, Australia
Coming together nicely, Doc ... a real quality build. Can't wait until you get it out under the night sky and hear how it performs - but then I'm getting ahead of the story a bit! In the meantime I gotta get me one of those space-age fans ...
Post Extras:
Scanning4Comets
Markus

#4942435 - 11/30/11 11:08 AM
Reged: 12/26/04 Loc: Ontario, Canada
Excellent thread! Really nice work you have done here.

Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. Scanning4Comets]

#4945146 - 12/01/11 09:41 PM
Thanks for the props! I am having a blast. Today I tackled the altitude bearings. I opted to go with Ebony Star bearing wraps with 1/8" thick, 1" x 3/4" PTFE pads. I ordered the supplies a few weeks ago and have been putting off this modification. I was unsure if I would just notch the pads into the sideboard or take 1/8" out of the whole circumference. First I used contact cement to glue the Ebony Star strips to the bearing. I wrapped the laminate all the way around the bearing and left the seam upwards so it will not come into play with any telescope motions. This was pretty straight forward and went perfectly. Then I took all felt off of the sideboard that the bearing had been riding on.
84 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
85 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
It was time to test fit the pads and bearing. Just screwing them on this way was doable but seemed to elevate the whole bearing too much. I then tried just notching in the pads half their width with a flat file. This too had the bearing riding too high. Both ways improved motion but made the friction brake not line up and also made the
86 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
bearing fit too closely at the top of the sideboard notch for free movement. The extra thickness added to the bearing by the Ebony Star made the bearing barely fit into the cradle at the top. It was just too snug for my likes this way. I decided to cut out 1/8" around the whole bearing opening. I also looked at a thousand other sideboards and decided I didn't need all the extra material around the top of the bearing's cut out. It was so enclosed it made dropping in the lower OTA snug now. Further, I decided to cut 1 1/4" off of the top of each sideboard to make the base and the lower OTA the same height. I measured and marked each top edge. Carefully I pulled back the black trim and taped it out of the way of where I was working. The cut went easily. I used a sabre saw and a new blade. A clamp and a piece of wood kept me straight. Then I cut the sideboard circle 1/8" over. I used the butt of a spray can to trace a radius for the top of each sideboard opening.
87 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
88 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Here you can see each cut done with the laminate edging pulled back. Notice the rounding of the opening with the gentle curve I added to the top with the spray can guide. The top trim had creases in it from the old corner. I trimmed the edging back to that point. I also took a file to the corners and rounded them a bit like the originals. Then
89 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
contact cement was applied to both sides.
90 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
After 15 minutes the edging stuck nicely and gives a nice finish. It looks like nothing had been done. Now I marked the position for the PTFE pads. I opted to place them at 45 degrees from vertical and 90 degrees apart from each other. A quick test fit showed me they fit perfectly and had even contact along the entire surface of all four pads. I
91 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
did have to get a file out and level and square the wood underneath one of the pads. It took moments to fine tune the one pad to square. The rest fit just right!
92 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
93 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The left over neoprene sheets from the gasket were cut into 3/4" strips for the exposed chip board where I removed the original laminate edging and felt. I opted for this edging because I had it on hand, it is strong as heck, and it won't kick off fuzz like felt. During the attaching of the neoprene I misplaced one of the strips and had to reposition it. Not so much. It took a chisel to take it off. This stuff is very stuck to the board and won't come off. I like how strong this edging is as well. The neoprene will protect things nicely and looks amazing. Further, I like how the original angles of the Lightbridge sideboards were kept. It really looks like it came this way.
94 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
95 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The fit and finish of the PTFE strips is top shelf. I really like how this mod finished. Here is a picture of the blocks of scrap I cut off of the top of each sideboard showing just how changed the profile is now.
96 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
97 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I am very pleased with the finished mod. Motion is ridiculously smooth now. The base also now sits 23 1/14" tall. The lower OTA is 23" tall. Not only do they now match in height but the shorter height helps me fit them into my Kia Soul better. The base previously had to sit more in the center of the car. The tall sides kept it from scooting over to the
98 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
side of the trunk space due to the curved roof. That meant the whole second row of seats had to be down. Now it is short enough to push all the way over to the edge of the trunk space. That means I can keep half of the back row seats up when traveling with the Lightbridge. The dog can fit now and go with me! This also means that my Lightbridge is now officially a hot rod now that it is "chopped".
99 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Slartibartfast
sage
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
100 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
#4946134 - 12/02/11 01:51 PM Reged: 05/28/08 Loc: New Jersey
Doc, This is great stuff! Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures and keep this thread going. I have the Ebony star strips and PTFE pads to do this mod, but I haven't worked up the courage to make the mod yet. (I haven't had the time to devote to the project either). I knew the Ebony star strips would add to the diameter of the ALT bearing and therefore make the bearing ride higher, so, I thought of notching out the felt at +/- 45 deg. for the PTFE pads (so they sit lower) and leaving the rest of the felt in place (this way the bearing can sit lower). (The felt would not come in to play, except as a covering of the particle board edge). I'm not sure that I would have the courage to trim away the sideboard with a sabre saw, though. You said the motions were improved without trimming the side board, so, that is reassuring to me. My worry is that, with the aluminum bearing on felt as-is, and with 12 lbs. clip-on counterweights, I can balance my Stellarvue 9x50 RACI, RDF, and Nagler 31mm even with a light shield. If I make the Ebony star/PTFE mod, will it reduce friction such that I lose balance? (but gain smoother motions). That's really my worry. My other worry (I worry a lot about this mod don't I? ) is that, as it is right now, the AZ and ALT motions have similarly high friction. If the ALT friction becomes lower (smoother motions) and the AZ friction remains high, then ALT-AZ motion combination gets a little wierd. There are PTFE pads between the base boards (in addition to the lazy susan bearing) that add friction (lazy susan bearing alone being quite low friction and I've read that the scope will weather vane in the wind with lazy susan bearing alone). I was considering the Ebony star ring. Anyway, I hope you wouldn't mind a few questions: (1) how are the motions since making the mod? (2) did the mod change your ALT balance? (3) do you have the PTFE pads sandwiched between the ground board and base board (AZ)? (4) how are the ALT motions relative to the AZ (does the ALT-AZ system as a whole "feel good" as it were)? I would be really apreciative of any information you could give me on this... Thanks!
Post Extras:
Starman1
Vendor

#4946417 - 12/02/11 04:29 PM
Reged: 06/24/03
A really effective modification not previously mentioned is adding buttresses to the side panels of the rocker box. The lateral shimmy in the stock side panels is unacceptable, and adding a couple triangular buttresses to each side
101 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Loc: Los Angeles
stiffens the base more than you can believe. I recommend this modification. Anyone who can cut down the side panels to make them clear doors more easily can manage the buttresses.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4946614 - 12/02/11 06:21 PM
Bart, I understand completely about putting this mod off. For what ever reason it had me a bit nervous too. I didn't want to wreck the stock boards or mess up my friction/stiction/motion balance. Ultimately I knew that if I blew it I could build a whole new base from plywood. I guess someday I will be building a new base anyway but hoped to put it off until this one is unusable. This base has lived a low humidity life and is still as strong as the day it was made. Anyway, I finally found the time and did it. I am very, very, very, happy I did. I also thought I would just notch and angle the pads too. However, I found that once I had it done the bearing fit too snug in the sideboard opening, specifically at the top of the opening. The two corners were right against the bearing and rubbing ever so lightly. With the felt it would have made it way too tight. I had already taken it off and the bearing was just rubbing ever so lightly. After fretting about it I just decided to use the sabre saw and go slow and easy. It worked. Letting the saw do the work and not forcing it kept the blade square and the cut had a nice rhythm to it. It went way easier than I thought. Be sure to tape the surface of the white melamine board with masking tape to protect it. I got so absorbed I forgot to on the first cut. The saw left a scratch on the surface that is small but noticeable. I taped everything up afterward and no other scratches happened. To answer question one I find the motions since making the mod are incredibly smooth. Buttery is a good term here. I would now compare the freedom of motion in altitude to be similar to the freedom in azimuth the Lightbridge has with the ground bearing. That being said I cannot give full comment. I have the mirrors out of the telescope for testing and possible refiguring. I only had the lower cell without mirror, bearings, and upper rings attached to the lower OTA for this mod and testing. I cannot speak to how it will behave once fully loaded. I expect it to be wonderfully easy. Perhaps too easy even. I have thought perhaps I should have gone with the larger 2" x 3/4" pads. I still may change. I thought I would wait until I had this set up fully loaded to decide. In question two you wondered if the mod changed my ALT balance. No. The balance will be the same. However, the new freedom will expose any imbalance. I expect it will take some fiddling to get the balance just right. I will have to wait to do this until I have mirrors and the rest of my load on. I also will be running with a large finder and some extra up front weight. I am sure my balancing needs and efforts will come later. That being said I think this mod will improve functional motion so much that working out perfect balance will be easier and is a small trade off for the wonderful motion it has now. Really, it is nice. I foresee getting the balance to within two or three pounds of
102 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
permanent weight and then using some sort of slide or removable weight system to make up for changes in eyepieces or positioning in the sky. This really is an evolution. Question three is easy. I do have ptfe pads stapled between the ground boards. I took the ground boards apart to tighten the fittings of all the sideboards. While there I noticed the pads. I also ran a micro fiber over the bearings well and cleaned all of the surfaces that normally miss dustings while I had it apart. Question four is also hard to completely answer since I don't have the whole scope assembled. However, I have an idea. I think that the overall feel of the scope with the PTFE mod is and will be wonderful. I am sure that the amount of effort I had to push to overcome the friction of the felt is gone. I would rate the motion in Alt and Az to be more equal and balanced comparatively to each other now too. At higher magnifications there was that over shooting of the target you had to do with the rebound after with alt motions. I had gotten used to it and I am sure this is what people mean when they talk about to getting used to a scope. This really feels like a different telescope now. It moves in altitude and azimuth so easily. It has a very polished, professional, constant, smoothness now in all ranges of motion. I personally love it. It will be a joy to track by hand at high mags now. I can see how others may feel it is too easy and in a wind there could be something to that. However, when the winds pick up enough to move the telescope my eyes water and I quit viewing. I personally like an easier moving telescope and think this will improve my high power viewing noticeably. Maybe some other Lightbridge owners who have done the PTFE mod can chime in here and enlighten things too. What say you all?
Post Extras:
Starman1
Vendor

#4946856 - 12/02/11 09:01 PM
My own scope has Ebony Star Formica on PTFE pads and moves very easily. Most people used to other dobs usually remark how easy and smooth my scope moves when they are sitting at the eyepiece, viewing. The downside of that buttery, smooth, motion is the necessity to balance the scope differentially at nearly every altitude of pointing and with eyepieces of different weights. It is a price I gladly pay because even in "Dobson's Hole" (i.e. the zenith), one hand on the top of the scope exerting finger pressure rotates the scope around the azimuth bearings smoothly and easily. I have tracked the scope on some objects at 456X and the action is still smooth enough to follow the objects easily. At 730X the scope's FOV was small enough that near-continuous tracking was necessary. Though smooth enough to do so, it was not a pleasant chore. In practice, in the field, there is almost nothing that really requires magnifications over 250X, so I rarely go to 280X
103 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
or 456X, though that latter magnification was necessary on some Perek-Kohoutek planetaries. If it's windy, remove the shroud. That goes a long way toward preventing "weather-vaning".
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4950325 - 12/04/11 08:39 PM
Today I solved a minor problem with the Lightbridge. Lifting up the UTA to attach it to the truss poles is a trick. You have to be a one armed Popeye holding the heavy and awkward UTA while delicately trying to thread the retaining bolts into the aluminum UTA rim. Sure, you can set the rim up on the extended and unused truss knobs but there is an instability with this even. Anyone who has ever set up a Lightbridge can attest to this setup dance. There is no easy way. Until now. I repurposed an electrical box I had on hand. I thought the plastic from it will be easily worked into the new parts and strong enough for the my purpose. Taking the tin snips I cut a piece of plastic that was flat and large enough.
104 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
105 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I measured and marked the piece I had cut into three, 1"x2" strips. I used the snips to cleanly cut the three tabs. Then the three tabs were filed a bit to smooth all the edges and give a rounded profile. I worked all edges with the file to make sure no sharp edges that could cut you were left.
106 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
107 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Then I drilled out two holes. One hole was to fit a 10-32 screw, the smaller was a 1/8" hole to fit a nub on the cast truss pole connecting piece. On the cast aluminum truss pole connector there is an unused hole. It is tapped from Meade for a 10-32 screw. Around the hole is a raised and slanted circular area that has a nub at the top. I think they
108 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
intended to use this hole and raised angled area for exactly what I decided to do. I am not inventing the paper clip here. I would think this is probably a common mod although I haven't seen it done much.
109 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I made three of these plastic tabs with holes and found some 1/8" 10-32 screws and washers. The tabs were attached to the truss pole connecting piece with the nub in the small hole. Notice how the platform around the hole was originally engineered to tip the tab outward thus opening it towards the top.
110 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
111 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The tab will catch the rim of the UTA now when setting up. It will be an easy lift to set the lip of the UTA into this cradle made by the new tab allowing you to let go and focus on screwing in the truss pole bolts. I will be spray painting the screws and washers flat black before all is said and done. This was a very easy and inexpensive mod that
112 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
will make set up a breeze and much safer.
113 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Slartibartfast
sage
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
114 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Doc, Thanks for taking the time to give me your impressions.

Quote:
I didn't want to wreck the stock boards or mess up my friction/stiction/motion balance. Ultimately I knew that if I blew it I could build a whole new base from plywood.
I think I am leaning toward a complete base rebuild and I'll install Ebony Star and PTFE pads then. Maybe in the spring I'll have time, but for now, I think I am going to do nothing and wait.
Quote:
At higher magnifications there was that over shooting of the target you had to do with the rebound after with alt motions. I had gotten used to it and I am sure this is what people mean when they talk about to getting used to a scope.
I do get some rebound. At 366x (5mm eyepiece) it is difficult to keep the object in the FOV but it's rare I'm at that magnification. Most often, I am at 203x (9mm eyepiece) or less and I don't notice the rebound. But, like you said, I'm used to the motions and can work around them for now. I'm not in a hurry, but at some point I'll do a base rebuild. Don,
Quote:
A really effective modification not previously mentioned is adding buttresses to the side panels of the rocker box.
This is an interesting mod and it sounds fairly easy to do. I may tackle this one if the motions become annoying enough and I don't do the rebuild first...
115 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Slartibartfast
sage

#4951216 - 12/05/11 11:12 AM
Quote:
Anyone who has ever set up a Lightbridge can attest to this setup dance.
I can attest to this dance. I just did it over the weekend!

Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4952039 - 12/05/11 06:40 PM
I have spent long hours in the forums reading and learning. All the modifications to my LB16 I have learned from other threads. Great minds have thought long and hard to solve this telescope's problems. I thank you all for your insights and examples. My Lightbridge is a wonderful telescope today because of your inputs and ideas. There are a few telescopes here on Cloudy Nights, specifically Lightbridge telescopes that have stood out. These Lightbridges have been given a name. Fame to these scopes have come with names like Beowulf, Night Rider, Green Goblin and Woodenbridge. These special telescopes stood out because of some unique modification their owners lovingly gave them that differentiated them enough from the common modified Lightbridge telescopes. These differences meant they needed a name. It is time for my Lightbridge to be made different, to be unique, to stand out among others, and to break free from the bonds of a mundane existence. Currently, somewhere on the planet, specialists are attending to my telescope. Elsewhere people scramble about delivering a flocking material shipment. Meanwhile other people package and ship other accessories. So, I am waiting and therefore so must you. The upcoming modifications and reveals are profound. Yes, I said profound. However, while we wait I thought I would give you a peek at what is to come.
116 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
So, here is a peek. Today my Lightbridge got a name.

Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4952071 - 12/05/11 07:00 PM
I was talking to a dear friend the other day about my plans for the telescope. Jen has made iron-on decals and stickers for my wife and I before. After coming up with a name for the telescope I knew she would be just the person to help. Jen came to the office today with her gear to make a couple decals for the Lightbridge. First she got online and downloaded the font. I wanted to make the sticker look like it was painted and gestural. After a quick scroll just the right one was found. She then created the sticker with her cool software. The machine she uses is a Silhouette and is capable of all kinds of cool things. I would explain this machine as a space age grid plotter cutter thingy. Of course I would say that to just say "space age" so I cannot be trusted. However, this is a really cool cutter.
117 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
118 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The vinyl is cut out from a roll. Then it is placed on a cutting board and fed into the cutter machine thingy.
119 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
120 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
After the machine makes a bunch of R2D2 sounds out comes the cut decal/sticker. Jen gently peeled back the negative vinyl and the sticker is left behind. She then got out this huge wide masking tape kind of stuff and pressed it sticky side down onto the vinyl sticker. This would be the part I would peel off when applying the decal.
121 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
122 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
123 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
She then trimmed the sticker down to size. It took her 10 minutes to do it all and didn't charge a thing. All hail Jen, keeper of the light! I rushed home at lunch to apply them to the Lightbridge. First, I lined up where I wanted the decals to go. I wanted to make it look like a special model decal kind of like automobile badging ala Chevy and Z71 or Ford and SHO.
124 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
125 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Then I used a credit card to rub the back of the masking tape transfer paper stuff and decal. After thoroughly pressing it down everywhere I peeled back the paper leaving the vinyl in place. I repeated the same steps for the other side. Just like that my Lightbridge was given a name.
126 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
127 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
From this day forward this Lightbridge shall be known as "M42".
128 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
129 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Starman1
Vendor
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
130 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
#4952201 - 12/05/11 08:27 PM Reged: 06/24/03 Loc: Los Angeles
Just a note: you put your eyepiece tray on upside down. In the orientation in which you attached it, the heads of the screws can scratch the eyepiece bodies as you insert and remove them. If you install it the other way, the screw flange is underneath the eyepiece tray and not easily seen, your lowest-power eyepiece is on the left (as it should be), and you will not scratch the eyepiece bodies inserting and removing them.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4952209 - 12/05/11 08:31 PM
Good catch. I hadn't noticed. Thanks. I also figured out that I had some of the truss poles reattached backward. It mattered.
Post Extras:
Slartibartfast
sage

#4952542 - 12/06/11 12:29 AM
Very nice! Are you going to make M42 the first light on your newly refigured mirror when it comes back?
Post Extras:
ThreeD
professor emeritus

#4952591 - 12/06/11 01:34 AM
Cutting up an electrical box was a great idea. Not only is it plastic so you won't be clanking your freshly powdercoated ring against them, I imagine that particular plastic is a nice balance of softness and rigidity. I used couple of fender washers which I drilled so that the nub had a place to go then painted them flat black. It's amazing how much easier it is setup/teardown the scope now. In fact I would consider this a must-do modification.
131 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I do feel sorry for those owners of old lightbridge units however as the entire feature containing the tapped hole and nub isn't present on the brackets...
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. ThreeD]

#4954945 - 12/07/11 01:03 PM
Scott, I am so excited to use the new plastic truss pole retaining tabs. They will make set up so much easier. I only get out to my dark site spot once or twice a month so they won't be worn out too fast. Usually the scope stays set up in the garage and is rolled out on the cart. Prolly why I haven't been burning to get that mod done. I should have done it sooner. The mod was slick, easy, and a huge bang for my buck. Don and everyone who has posted ideas in this thread, thanks for your continued insights by the way. My hope is that some newer astronomer may read this post someday and be inspired by either how I approached this telescope's mods or by other's ideas and suggestions. Bart, I love the idea of M42 being first light. It will be poetically perfect. Yesterday the mail man was my friend. He brought me a nicely packaged box from Catseye Collimation Tools. Today's update is mostly just to share my new accessories for this scope. Although not a true modification this collimation set is now integral and a part of M42 in my opinion. After reading and learning about collimation through the years it is now obvious to me that a precision collimation set and therefore precision collimation is essential to this fast f/4.5 telescope. Further, adding the Paracorr to the mix increased my need for accurate collimation tolerances. Previous to this new set I used a laser collimator. Much is talked about the pros and cons of lasers. I was fortunate to have these forums and others' insights about laser collimators. Learning how to tune and collimate the laser put my mind at ease that it was as good as can be had for a laser. My model is an Orion Lasermate collimator. FYI when I first got it I check its collimation and it was spot on from the factory. Recently, like last week, I put M42's focuser in a vise and pointed it across my shop. Inserting the laser and turning it showed I still had tight (less than 1/4") movement of the laser beam at about 25 feet. I am satisfied it is still as good as can be for a laser. I also want to say I am in no way part of Catseye. Its just a great product with A+ recommendations and reviews. I ordered the Triple Pack Pro XLSK set. It came in a nice black box. Cut outs of the foam were clean and presentation is top notch for these tools.
132 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
133 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The first piece of the set is the Teletube XLS adjustable sight tube. It has small set screws that allow the tube to be adjusted for each telescope's speed. Notice how they included allen wrenches to adjust the set screws. Everything about this collimation set screams perfection and it is made so well. My secondary will be so nicely aligned now.
134 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
135 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
There is a nice laminated card stock gauge included to set the length of the Teletube to just the right length. The Blackcat XL Cheshire equally is finished wonderfully.
136 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
137 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
138 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The Infinity XLK Auto Collimator with its offset 2 pupil design is just asking to align my optical path. The underside was a machining work of art. Heck, the whole piece and set is a work of art. Also included was a nice red LED pen light attached to a clip. The light clips onto the spider assembly and the beam is focused toward the primary mirror. This light gives a nice red reflex lighting to the center marker and to this passive set so M42 can be collimated at night. The cork will protect the finish of the vanes nicely.
139 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
140 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
There is a learning curve to this set but I am finding learning about Newtonian collimation principles fun. Included are several instruction sheets and how-to information. Also, a copy of "New Perspectives On Newtonian Collimation" by Vic Menard is included. I am pleased. Lastly attached to an instruction sheet on how to attach them are a couple of
141 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
center markers. I opted for the yellow "Hot Spot". Rolled up in a tube to protect it during shipping is the template. The centering and marking template is clear plastic and well protected during shipping. The instructions are clear and concise on attaching the center dot. I am so excited to use this set once I get M42 back together.
142 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Starman1
Vendor
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
143 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
#4955051 - 12/07/11 01:52 PM Reged: 06/24/03 Loc: Los Angeles
Now that you have the Catseye tools, I hope this can help: http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=2677
Post Extras:
johnnyha
Post Laureate

#4955612 - 12/07/11 07:27 PM
Reged: 11/12/06 Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
A tip: Spin the site tube in your focuser and make sure the crosshairs are collimated, you can readily see when you rotate it - the center point where the wires intersect should not move. Mine were a hair off but its extremely easy to recollimate you just nudge the wires with your finger. Great thread following with interest thanks!
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. johnnyha]

#4957334 - 12/08/11 07:46 PM
Cross hairs are spot on! Thanks for the tip. Its always nice to know. Yesterday I got to finish up on my Mauro Da Lio baffle. I found some old plastic for sale signs that I figured I could repurpose. They are like cardboard box material in structure only made of plastic and not paper. I traced the inside of the lower cast piece the tube attaches too. I figured it would give me a perfectly round inside measurement as a guide to cut along. If you notice I did this part some time ago before powder coating.
144 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
145 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
It worked like a charm. I did get some fierce forearm cramps but made it through. After getting the disc I used the mirror itself as a template for the diameter of the inside cut. I took extra care to make sure the mirror was centered before tracing. I ended up cutting about 1/8" larger than the mirror traced. I wanted to make sure there was enough
146 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
clear around the edge to allow for minor adjustments in the mirror and to show off the great edges of the mirror. You can also see the silicone glue that held the mirror prisoner in its cell before I liberated it. When I communicated with Optic Wave Laboratories they told me to leave it and they would clean it up.
147 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Viola! The baffle is complete! After a few test fittings and trimming cycles it was completely rounded, fit the walls nicely, and the edge of the baffle didn't hang over the mirror anywhere.
148 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
149 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I spray painted the bottom of it flat black while I was painting washers that would go inside of the tube. I used a multipurpose paint and it adhered very nicely to the plastic baffle. I plan to flock the top of the baffle. It will be flocked and installed with epoxy after the inside of the tube is flocked.
150 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
151 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4957400 - 12/08/11 08:26 PM
The mailman finally brought my package from Scopestuff. Flocking time! Apparently it had been on back order. I got three rolls of the 24"x48" flocking material. I plan to flock the upper and lower tubes and also two of my other smaller refractors at the same time. This stuff is wicked dark and is lighter in weight than I thought it would be. It came with a nice, simple to follow, instruction sheet. I am very pleased.
152 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
153 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I cut one roll in half to use on the upper tube. Each roll needed the ends trimmed. I also checked for squareness. It was already cut spot on from Scopestuff. Thanks. That made the job just a tad easier.
154 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
155 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I figured out how much one roll would cover and how much would be needed to fill the gap. That gave me an idea of where to mark and start the first roll. Once I marked a line where I needed to begin I peeled back about two inches of the backing paper. I held each exposed end tight, aligned it to my line, then gently pressed the flocking into place.
156 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I found out that if you gently put the paper in place it could be pulled off and repositioned to get it just right. However, once it was pressed hard into place it was very stuck. After getting the first couple inches pressed well I could take about four inches of the paper off at a time, press and smooth it from the the inside out. No wrinkles, no bubbles, no worries. It went on very well and smooth.
157 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
158 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
A quick trim around the edge to clean up the overlap with a razor and it was neat and tidy. The lower tube went just as easy. The second piece was measured and cut. The same process of lining up the edge, gently pressing it in place, and adjusting to get it just right worked perfectly. The seams are nearly invisible. It took me an hour to flock both
159 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
tubes. A small hobby knife helped me cut out each hole for the screws, focuser, et al.
160 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
161 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The baffle was flocked with scraps and trim. I then measured and marked where the baffle needed to be placed. Studies show it is best placed .2 to .5 times the diameter of the mirror above the surface of the mirror. I settled on a number, made a template guide out of scrap paper, and placed the baffle. From the top the baffle blends in to the side wall flocking. Even with flash it was difficult to image.
162 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
163 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Once I was satisfied it was perfectly in place 5 minute epoxy sealed the deal. Literally. It worked as a nice seal all the way around the baffle. There will be no air leaking down the edge here. Very nifty and strong!
164 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
165 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Baffle done! Mod complete. It looks great and will work wonderfully. I am very happy with how the flocking went in. It is leaps and bounds darker. I think something about the sound deadening has an effect to make you feel it is darker too. If I hadn't named it "M42" already "Black Hole" comes to mind.
166 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
167 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4957672 - 12/09/11 12:36 AM
Now, lets focus on the tubes. For so long they have just sat empty and alone. There was nothing on them and nothing to do with them until later in the mods. The only functional modification I could do with the tubes was to blacken the rim of the ST-80. So I did.
168 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
After a friend of a friend talked with me and a few emails were bounced back and forth I found myself looking at a proof for an idea that was amazing me. The friend of a friend wraps cars. Well, he wraps cars, windows, buildings, and all kinds of things. Mostly people wrap cars for advertising. Often its corporations wrapping fleet vehicles. You
169 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
may have seen a graphically laden wrapped car, truck, or bus somewhere I am sure. Here is how M42 got its name. M42, The Great Orion Nebula, was an obvious choice for me. To wrap a deep space hunter like the Lightbridge 16 in the very stars and nebulas it seeks on clear nights seems like a great idea. Since a wrap can be made of any photo, image, graphic, whatever, many ideas were brain stormed. Cammo, bright obnoxious cammo, Atlas rocket booster, WWII pin up nose art, patriotic themes, and dragons all were ideas that made the short list. However, once I got some ideas back from Jeff, the wrapper, the M42 imagery stood out. Once ideas are hashed out and measurements are taken the graphic artist goes to work and lays out the proof. After approval it is sent to their printer. Its a huge printer but not that different from the common ink jet. The printing is done directly onto a thin polyester/vinyl film made by 3M. Product information can be read about here.
170 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The film is, well, you guessed it, some SPACE AGE stuff. The product description says these 50 micron cast films offer versatility along with slideable, repositionable, pressure activated adhesive. These long term durable and removable films have excellent hiding power and stability, making them perfect for signs and fleet graphics and watercraft,
171 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
including surfaces with corrugations and rivets. Films with this Comply adhesive have air release channels for fast and easy, bubble-free graphic installations. In addition, the air release channels for films with Comply adhesive are non-visible and have improved air release. Once this vinyl film is printed it is over laminated with another space age product. 3M Scotchcal Gloss Overlaminate is a 2 mil film that can enhance gloss and provide additional ultraviolet and durable physical protection for electronic digitally imaged graphic constructions. You can read more about its product information here. Then the wrap is attached to the part, positioned, then heat shrunk to the item being wrapped. The glue that is used is heat sensitive and activated with the heat gun. When you want to remove the wrap you just heat it up and the glue releases. It leaves the surface unharmed.
172 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
173 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I had them wrap right over the stock stickers so that this modification is completely reversible. The whole complete, protected, stock Lightbridge is underneath. I tried to show how clingy and thin this wrap is. It is shiny like glossy hot rod paint and amazingly durable. This is the same stuff they use on cars so it will hold up to rocks, salt, road grime,
174 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
and all the harshness of the road. Just wipe with a moist cloth. Wow. All of the holes were cut so cleanly you would mistake it for paint. My camera phone doesn't capture the depth or colors accurately. Better pics will come soon. It has an amazing finish. Amazing.
175 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
176 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Fellow astronomers. Presenting M42.
177 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
178 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
179 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
180 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
181 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
182 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
183 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
184 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
185 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
186 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
187 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
bilgebay
Carpal Tunnel
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
188 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
#4957716 - 12/09/11 01:27 AM Reged: 11/06/08 Loc: Trkiye - Istanbul and Marmari... Post Extras:
Amazing! Wow!
Scanning4Comets
Markus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. bilgebay]

#4957762 - 12/09/11 03:35 AM
Reged: 12/26/04 Loc: Ontario, Canada
I second that! I LOVE reading your posts and seeing your work. Top notch! Cheers,
Post Extras:
CatseyeMan
Vendor (Cats Eye Collimation)

#4957818 - 12/09/11 06:34 AM
Quote: Reged: 12/16/04 Loc: Huntsville, AL USA
Fellow astronomers. Presenting M42.
Scopes that elicit "goose bumps" are few and far between - what a beauty to behold! Congratulations on your masterful work. What else do you do in your waking hours?
Post Extras:
189 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Robo-bob
super member
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. CatseyeMan]

#4958068 - 12/09/11 11:14 AM
Reged: 05/02/05
When you first started this project and started posting I thought to myself: " this guy has too much spare time on his hands ". Now that I have seen the pictures of the completed scope, you have done an amazing job. It looks just brilliant. Dare I say, " a work of art ". Nice job.I am thinking the only thing left is to build a custom baltic birch base for it. You could shave off a serious chunck of weight, make it a lot more rigid, not to mention durable. Finally, you could color scheme it to match the amazing job you did on the OTA. Come on - you know want too........
Post Extras:
Slartibartfast
sage

#4958080 - 12/09/11 11:24 AM
You do have a knack for keeping the surpirses until the very end! This thread is like a good book - the kind where you don't know where it is going and you can't put it down! That is one beautiful scope. Absolutely beautiful!
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. Robo-bob]

#4958150 - 12/09/11 12:06 PM
Thanks for the cudos! Jim, it will be a pleasure to be able to use your wonderful tools on this telescope. I am pleased to hear you are pleased. To answer your question as to what I do in my waking hours it would depend on who you asked. I am a doctor of chiropractic three days a week part time helping my sweetheart in her practice. She is a chiropractor too. However, most of the time I am in my art studio creating art as a fine artist. If you couldn't tell already I am a very visually oriented person. I paint and draw pretty pictures. My art career took off a few years ago after I went back to school and got a BFA. Now I work mostly on commissioned works for private art collectors and periodically take the good stuff to the juried shows. Oils, inks, graphite, pastels, and anything working in two dimensions are my favorite
190 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
medias while portraiture and figurative themes prevail in my style although I have been known to dabble with non-objective stuff too. Here are some examples of my art. The first pic is a self portrait in pastels. Rob, it is ironic you called it a work of art. Thanks for making me smile. I will be doing that base. Someday. Maybe I should use a zebra or exotic purple heart wood. I have to save something to post later and resurrect this thread as a zombie thread in a couple years anyway. Bart, Hahahaha. Pretty fun, huh?
191 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
192 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Starman1
Vendor

#4958221 - 12/09/11 12:57 PM
Man, that is one spiffed-up LightBridge. But I've gotta say, that base just looks wrong. Now if any scope deserved a base finished in black piano lacquer, this is it. How do you turn a sow's ear into a silk purse? Just look at this thread. This would also be a great scope for custom collimation knobs or even JMI's "collimotors".
193 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
And when it's all done, it'll still be hundreds (if not thousands) less than a high-end scope. And if this thread is any indication, one of those would have had to be modified too!
Post Extras:
johnnyha
Post Laureate

#4958267 - 12/09/11 01:31 PM
Post Extras:
yonkrz
scholastic sledgehammer

#4958294 - 12/09/11 01:48 PM
Reged: 11/16/06 Loc: SW Minnesota
Yes a black base would be the finishing touch on that baby.

Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4958309 - 12/09/11 02:02 PM
Here is what I did to M42 next. Once the flocking was done I reassembled it to have a look. I wanted to load it up closer to how I will use it and test it out a bit. First I drilled a couple new holes for the second finder base. It is in line with the stock finder just around the telescope a bit more.
194 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
195 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I reattached the original focuser and finder base too. Earlier I showed you pics of washers of various sizes. They were used in reattaching all the accessories. This will increase stability and strength beyond what I need. Each washer was bent with pliers to match the curve of the tube too. With the heavy finder scope and huge eyepieces and Paracorr I
196 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
figured making things stronger couldn't hurt. I mounted the ST-80 finder scope and the RDF next. I put the ST-80 at this height so the UTA can be set down without impacting the focuser on the ground.
197 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I loaded the inside mirror cell up with counter balance weights from my CGEM. It took two 17 and one 10 pound weight in the base to find a tentative balance. I wrapped the weight in soft rags and just set them in. The mirror is geographically separated from me at this time so I improvised here. I figure the mirror weighs about 30ish pounds so
198 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I probably am still a bit weight starved.
199 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I was able to lift up the loaded UTA easily and set it right into the truss pole mounts with their new plastic tabs. They are so perfectly placed that when I went to thread the knobs I only needed one hand. The threaded ring was right where it needed to be. I mean right there! The other two were equally lined up to perfection. The tab mod is a must
200 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
do Lightbridge owners. I decided to use a Garret Optical RDF. I have had and used it interchangeably on my other telescopes for years now. It is ironically the same finder as comes stock with the LB16 only mine is on a metal base. The original finder for this telescope was non-functional when I bought the scope as it couldn't be adjusted. I fiddled with it some but ended up just tossing it out. I already had one. I will hold on to the TELRAD. If I find I miss it I will get the base/foot for it that fits into a finder base and swap them out. The ST-80 I have is a wonderful instrument. I have guided with it and looked through it piggy backed on my C9.25 for years. It got wrapped too. The dark grey color is an amazing match to the dark grey of the C9.25 btw. It looks so well matched now. The ST-80's stock finder had already been replaced with a nicer single speed GSO Crayford. It is a charmer. Orion had a correct-image diagonal I couldn't resist either that would make this telescope a great finder. The diagonal can be used for terrestrial or astronomical use. It is a 1.25" 90 diagonal that produces a right-side-up, nonreversed image that provides a view through your telescope that matches normal daytime orientation for added comfort and ease of use. It requires no extra focus travel and has fully coated prisms for superior image fidelity. The set up is topped off by an Orion 20mm Illuminated Centering Telescope Eyepiece with a 70 FOV. Of course I can still swap out the diagonal to a nicer "regular" diagonal any time and the eyepiece selection is legion. The whole set up is held in place by a Stellarvue R80S finderscope rings system. This quick release mounting system is sweet.
201 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
202 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The base attaches with two screws that are 1.125" - 1.55" apart. The base is low profile and places the rail between the rings only 1 1/8" above the mounting surface. The dual rings may be removed quickly and easily for transport or storage. The Rings are 3 7/8" I.D. and come with nylon tipped stainless steel adjustment screws. The whole system is
203 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
without wiggles and is very secure. Pimp!
204 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
205 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I decided on the Stellarvue ring system for the finderscope because of its convertibility. There is this really cool accessory they have that is made to hold the bar and ring system. It is threaded on the bottom for camera tripods. It attaches on top of the tripod very securely. The machining, fit, and finish is top notch.
206 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
207 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The ring system then just fits into the new base and is held in place with two screws. Now the ST-80 can serve as a terrestrial or celestial grab and go telescope. I can also throw in the tripod to the car and easily remove the ST-80 from M42 for a second scope when the wife comes along so we can both poke around at the same time.
208 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
209 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The altitude bearing finished wonderfully. The powder coating is flawless and even. In the first picture you can see how the back part is coated. Also note the altitude brake. It is fully functional and sits in the exact location as it did stock because of the mod where I cut 1/8" from the alt bearing's cut out. I also turned the bearing over on this side
210 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
so it matched the other's orientation. Now the scuffing on the bearing can be seen along the top of the bearing. I noted that the plastic contact pad was unevenly worn and scratched. It came out when I touched a piece of tape to it and pulled. I then just turned it over and put it back in. Instant new surfaces!
211 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
212 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The next accessory I added was a holder for my droid cell phone. I found it on eBay for cheap. It is made completely of plastic. I think it is intended to attach the phone to handle bars. However, it fits the truss pole perfectly. I positioned it equidistantly between the upper and lower tubes.
213 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
214 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The smart phone mount is very solidly built and completely adjustable. It pivots and turns in just about every way to make the holder very universal. It also does not interfere with my light path. By squeezing the sides if the mount it gently holds the sides of my phone in place and is released gently with the press of a button. A tiny slit in the shroud
215 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
allows for this to poke through. Why did I add a smart phone holder and why would I put it here you ask? I need the phone secure while I align and use the planetarium/DSC/PUSHTO application SkEye. SkEye is a Droid application made my another Cloudy Nights astronomer that allows you to use the internal GPS, magnetometer and accelerometer of the phone so it can be used as a PUSHTO object locator. If you have ever used Google Sky Map it is similar only more sensitive, less jumpy/more smooth, and is made to be used attached to telescopes. Sorry for the blurry pictures. I hope to do a full post about this software soonish.
216 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
217 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
SkEye aims to be an advanced planetarium for Android that utilizes this powerful mobile platform to the fullest. The interface has been designed to be easy for the beginner while also providing information and control to the experienced user. If you are beginning with astronomy, SkEye can help you identify bright stars, planets and
218 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
constellations simply by pointing your phone in their direction. This is a great way to familiarize yourself with the sky. It is a virtual DSC app too. A unique feature of SkEye is that you can strap your phone to a telescope (or a pair of binoculars) to get a PUSHTO guide, without additional equipment! You only need to follow a simple alignment procedure. Find out more about SyEye here. The documentation and instructions on the site are simple, easy, and accurate. You can also get to the documentation and support via your cell phone. The software is a dream to use and set up. Fast too. They recommend it not be close to ferrous metals which is why it is in between the tubes and why the plastic holder was needed. The tubes are made of steel and interfere with the magnetometer. In the newest versions there is a display on the software warning you that you are near an unusual magnetic interference. This software sensor showed me where to place it. In the first close up of the phone you can see the orange warning message being set off by the other camera phone being close to it. Once I stood back and snapped the other picture you can see that the orange warning light is off. Pretty sensitive.
219 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
220 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
SkEye has a nice selection in its object databases including: All named stars up to mag 5
221 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
All stars up to mag 6 are rendered in the Free version and up to mag 8 in the Pro version. (More coming soon) Messier Objects NGC catalog objects About 200 bright NGCs in the Free version. Complete NGC in the Pro version. There is also a catalog filter mechanism to deal with large databases. Planetarium features includes: Translations in French, Hungarian and Slovenian. Precession (for better accuracy). Bullseye reticle with coordinates of target. Real time Alt/Az and RA/HA/Dec coordinates. Battery indicator. Full screen mode. Constellation lines. Night mode. Multiple locations that are saved between sessions. Search function with guiding reticle. Alt and azimuth and equatorial grids. This is a very complete package for free! I recommend you pop for the $12 and get the SkEye Pro version. You won't be disappointed. At worst it brings you very close to your target. At best you are spot on. Its accuracy is all in the alignment which you can fine tune with more guide stars at any time. Further, you don't need to see Polaris to set it up. It even suggests alignment stars based on what is seeable. I can go on and on with the features. It works well with my HTC G2x. Check it out. I am a fan.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4959510 - 12/10/11 09:52 AM
Next I need a handle to move this well behaved brute around. First I carefully marked, set, and drilled two holes for the handle's bolts. Then I took that left over neoprene sheet and cut and fashioned a couple of washers for the handle. The bottom attaching surface of the handle was flat and had a slight rock to it sitting on the curved tube. By adding the neoprene washers I wanted to stop any rocking.
222 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
223 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
A quick drill made nice holes for the mounting bolts. Once again the neoprene worked wonderfully and made for a very secure mounting. I found the handle by searching eBay and got it once again for cheap. I used a recessed allen head bolt.
224 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
225 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The handle also was treated to flat black, large, fender washers to spread out the forces of moving over more area of the tube. I like how the handle matches and fits so well. In the close up picture of the inside of the tube you can also see how the lower UTA ring fits on the new plastic strut tabs.
226 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
227 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I chose a larger 5 1/2" handle to fit my huge hands better. Another simple and inexpensive modification complete! On another side note many of the pictures show M42 as being grey and dull. Then in other pictures of the same area
228 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
the colors of the nebulosities jump out more. I think it is the inferior camera phone I am using or the UV coatings of the wrap's films that is causing some illusions. To the eye this telescope is blacker and filled with popping intense colors. I think I am going to have to take it out in the sun and use my nice camera to capture the true look of this amazing telescope.
229 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
230 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Aperturefever
member
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
231 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
#4960611 - 12/10/11 10:53 PM Reged: 12/12/10 Loc: Lake Macquarie, Australia
Nice work Doc! I like how you've kept the mount white, drawing all the attention to the telescope itself. Can't wait to hear how it performs. Do you have a shot of the bottom end of the scope and the space age fan?
Post Extras:
calibos
Carpal Tunnel

#4965505 - 12/13/11 11:10 PM
Reged: 11/18/07 Loc: Ireland
Ah Man, I hate Nightrider getting name checked in LB16 threads like this.......cause it just reminds me how much dust it has gathered in the last 2.5 years and the threads remind me how many more mods I need to do Absolutely fantastic work Doc!! I have to agree with others. Time to start thinking about the base to do that unbelievable OTA justice!! Stunning just isn't the word. Although, I've said it inumerable times over the last 2.5 years and maybe shouldn't tempt fate but......"I should be able to get back to finally finishing the scope and using it in a month or too" Several house moves, workload, family health issues and financial considerations have prevented me from finishing or using the scope bar a handfull of times. None of those are an issue anymore and I got my modding mojo back big time after 'modding' our family store. Its barely recognisable and didn't cost a penny bar the price of a few screws. Ironically it was the tools I bought for scope modding and skills I learned modding the scope that helped me and gave me confidence to tackle the carpentry, electronics, thinking outside the box etc. Its actually amazing the amount of times I ran into a problem or needed something to implement an idea and the solution was in my boxes of scope mod stuff. Need to make a rotating lottery scratch card display....ooh some teflon pads would be just the ticket, want to turn a hand barcode scanner into a undercounter mounted scanner like a supermarket...Oh, that bit of plexiglass left over from that nightrider mod will be just right, need to dis-assemble the cash register to reroute the scanner wiring...oh the soldering iron I bought for Nightrider wiring is what I need right now....etc etc etc. I worked out the man-hours myself and my brother put in and if you multiply that by the going hourly rate for a shop fitter, well we've saved thousands. To cut a long story short, while I could have actually re-started the scope a few months ago I was apprehensive and procrastinating a lot because its so long since I touched it. Theres stuff I need to redo and ideas that didn't pan out and need to be rethought. I started to worry abour wrecking the scope if I finally tried to fit the servocat I bought in Oct 2009!!
232 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Both the massively successful Shop Mod and Docs thread have given me back the mojo and impetous to get started again and finish Nightrider once and for all. The only thing stopping me from starting now is Christmas Its amazing how relative things can be. Staying behind occasionily after work till 1 or 2 am to do this or that in the shop used to fill me with dread, I just wanted my bed after a hard days work. Now its a walk in the park after doing a few weeks of day shifts and then 10pm till 8 am next morning work refitting the shop while we were closed. Similarily, the amount of work still to do on the scope filled me with dread and thus I procrastinated. Now its peanuts compared to the level and difficulty of work I put into the shop over the last month and it holds no fear for me anymore. Hopefully while Jupiter is still riding high and before Mars and Saturn start to put on their respective shows, I'll finally have Nightrider worthy enough to be mentioned alongside M42, Woodenbridge, the Green Goblin and Beowulf.
Edited by calibos (12/13/11 11:43 PM) Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. calibos]

#4967306 - 12/15/11 01:38 AM
Hi Keith. It is great to hear Night Rider is on the way to the stars again. You have been a busy man. Sean, I will get you that picture soon. Today I got to thinking about the parts I have stored in ziplock bags that won't be part of the Lightbridge any longer. The parts were labeled and put in the astronomy drawer filled with other stock telescope parts from other telescopes. Something says to me I should save them, however, I never have used them and won't again either. However, the drawer is important when resale happens so you can sell a complete telescope. Anyway, there are only a few things for the LB. The drawer didn't get too full. The 3 plastic feet that were on the bottom tube have been orphaned being too small to hang with the big weights that now hold the weight of the lower tube. While putting them away I got to thinking they didn't weigh very much and then the light bulb came on. Another mod came into my mind. A strip of one inch aluminum got cut and bent a little. Then some holes were drilled. Please note the bandage on the tip of my finger. This mod drew first blood. The edges of cut aluminum are sharp it turns out. Needless to say rough sharp edges were smoothed and ground to a nice, safe, profile.
233 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
234 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
In no time I had fashioned some brackets to hold those three left over plastic feet. I was thinking about fastening these to the UTA along the lower ring. These three legs would keep the metal rim of the UTA from resting directly on what ever surface I find myself sitting it down on.
235 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
236 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I think these may need to go to powder coating to look best and for durability. I had planned on an easy 90 degree angle bracket but ended up bending the bracket to go around the edge of the ring. This also kept things from intruding into the light path. My wife's kitchen scale shows the total weight this mod would add to the UTA at only 5.5
237 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
oz. So what do you all think? Should I send these off to powder coat and drill the holes to mount them? Does the value of protecting the UTA with plastic feet when setting it down warrant 5.5 oz and drilling into the UTA? Do other Lightbridge owners or truss dob drivers find setting down the UTA directly on the ground a problem worth this mod? Thoughts?
238 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
239 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
ThreeD
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
240 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
#4967719 - 12/15/11 10:42 AM Reged: 12/23/08 Loc: Sacramento suburbs
But they aren't black...

Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4968626 - 12/15/11 08:05 PM
Sean, here is that picture of the bottom end of the scope and the space age fan. It sucks. lol Scott, the brackets aren't finished yet. I plan to purdy them up with either flat black metal paint or powder coating. I am still on the fence about installing them. They will work perfectly, I just keep wondering if this mod is worth it yet. It may be I don't use them and write them off to practicing. The jury is out. The second pic shows the DC power cord. It plugs into a power tank. The switchable voltage is nice. It can switch between 1.5, 3, 4.5 (the minimum to make the fan go), 6, 7.5, 9, 12 volts. The fan can be turned up and down as the night progresses. At the beginning of the night the fan stays on 12 volt. After the mirror cools down I can turn the fan down to just keep the tube currents laminar. The cord is another internet find for cheap. It serves double duty powering my auto-guider for the SCT and CGEM. Me likey.
241 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
242 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Aperturefever
member
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
243 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
#4968866 - 12/15/11 11:06 PM Reged: 12/12/10 Loc: Lake Macquarie, Australia
Now that's a nice rear end! You must be happy with it Doc - it's come together nicely and looks really clean. That fan will be scrubbing the mirror well. You've done so much in one hit that it'll be hard to gauge exactly how much each mod has improved the view - but it's bound to be a great view!
Post Extras:
THEPLOUGH
TEN Grandchildren; FIVE Ducklings
#4969386 - 12/16/11 10:57 AM Attachment (13 downloads)
Reged: 01/11/08 Loc: Carlisle, Cumbria, ENGLAND
Wow... You sir are a craftsman...

Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. THEPLOUGH]

#4973301 - 12/18/11 10:20 PM
I received an email from the creator/developer of Skeye, the DSC/PUSH TO software application I am using on my Droid attached to M42 with a plastic bike handle bar holder. I am pleased and honored to share that he has included pics of M42 and the modification on the Skeye website under Ideas For Phone Mounts. He also asked in the email a great question. Earlier in the thread I had mentioned that the upper and lower tubes were steel, therefore they interfered with the phone's magnetometer. Harshad wondered; 1)what the truss tubes were made of to not interfere with the sensor and 2)were they stock parts? They are made of aluminum so are non-ferrous thus don't bother the magnetometer. Meade included these in the stock Lightbridge. I made my older silver tubes black with the powder coating. I understand Meade corrected things well and now ships them already black. I have to say that Harshad has created a wonderful application. He is a very responsive programmer who has included suggestions from Cloudy Nights members all along to improve and make a great application. I encourage all Droid users to download the free version, check it out, then pop the couple of bucks for the Pro Version of Skeye. Not only will it be a great addition to your astronomy hobbies but it will help support a very "grass roots" application and the humble programmer. He really is a great guy and as an astronomer has done wonders for the the field with Skeye.
Post Extras:
244 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4973425 - 12/19/11 12:09 AM
I have been thinking about weight. Counter weight. M42 is needing even more. Pounds more. I could always order a set of two or three of the Farpoint 2 pound screw on weights I earlier had sent back. Even if they are discolored, powder coating can fix that. They are pricey though. Considering a million ideas I finally decided to go with stick on lead weights that are used for truck and car wheel balancing. I think these will give me the most flexibility as to where I mount the weight and the weights can be trimmed to fit odd shaped spaces. I figure if the adhesive stick-on material is made to hold onto spinning wheels exposed to weather and road muck they will hold in place where I need them, in the butt of this telescope. Online I found some nice 2 oz. flat lead counter weights in bulk and ordered a box of 8.25 lbs. worth. They were $28.99 with free shipping from Drillspot. I plan to plaster the lead all over the inside of the lower cell until I find perfect balance with the minimum UTA field weight load. Then I will have "outside" adjustable weights that will come on and off to balance eyepieces and the like. When I thought of the amount of weight needed for the optimum balance I started to worry about the mass and what a heat sink it will be. Ultimately how much weight is needed is how much is needed. However, I want to keep the mass of the weights as far away from the mirror as possible. Likewise I want to keep a moving air layer caused by the fan between the mass of weights and the mirror. This will keep any radiating heat coming off of the weights away from the mirror. Heat being held in the mass of the weight will radiate into the air first then the heated air will be sucked out of the rear by the fan. The mirror will be insulated from the heat this way. This is why I settled on the flat, trimable, stick-on lead. I can line the back of the cell with weight as thinly as possible, evenly, and keep a boundary layer of air moving between it and the mirror. By spreading the lead out evenly across the back of the lower cell I also hope to help speed the cooling of the weight. Increasing the surface area of the counter weight instead of having huge lumps of weight like the 2 pounders will speed cooling. Spreading the weight evenly will also help with the balance of the scope too. When I had it set up for testing I found when all the ballast weight was moved to the front of the mirror cell it kept the telescope from pointing vertically. When I adjusted the weights around evenly this went away. So, low, out of the way, and spread out it will be. The package of weights shipped and will be here tomorrow. That makes for interesting timing. When I boxed my mirrors to ship them out for testing, through a parody of errors, they ended up not being shipped. So, now that I am almost completed with the majority of modifications I decided to wait to send the mirrors out a couple of weeks and instead reinstall them to play around with M42 and get it in top operating shape. First was remounting the secondary. I want to thank Bart, his thread and all the posters to his thread who lead the
245 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
way for me. I marked the mirror and the secondary holder with alignment pencil marks to guide me perfectly.
246 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The silicone glue worked perfectly and there is a great air gap from the toothpicks. The mirror was mounted with a 6.91 mm offset. My reasoning for the offset is discussed in this thread about offsetting vs. not offsetting the secondary mirror. Carefully measuring and marking payed off here. I would say the mirror is within .5 mm of
247 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
perfection. That will be noise that will be made null during collimation. I am pleased. I also have to mention that I also took off the stock center spot from the primary mirror and remarked it. 100% acetone was used to lift the glue and clean the old spot off. The instructions that are provided from Catseye on how to center mark the primary with a "Hotspot" were easy to use. The template Catseye provided with their collimation tools and the "Hotspot" was a joy to use. It went swiftly. So swiftly that I forgot to take pictures. You can see how it is done at their website in a video. I chose a yellow Hotspot. They sent two in the kit so when I do test, recoat, or refigure I will have another. My wife has been saving milk jugs for me so I can make some washers for the secondary collimating screws to ride on between the secondary mirror holder. This is a very common fix and is very highly recommended. I had to share counter space with her while she made Christmas cookies.
248 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
249 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The original washer was used as a template and was traced onto the cut out plastic for the milk jug washers. I used the flattest part of the jug to harvest the plastic from. A drill bit quickly made a nice hole for the secondary mounting screw.
250 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
251 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Then scissors finished cutting out the new washers. Only two will be used at a time. I made extras to replace worn ones. In the time it took for a batch of homemade cookies I had this fix done. Things are ready for reinstalling the secondary onto the UTA once the silicone glue cures.
252 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
253 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
ThreeD
professor emeritus
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
254 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
#4973532 - 12/19/11 02:36 AM Reged: 12/23/08 Loc: Sacramento suburbs
Quote:
I have been thinking about weight. Counter weight. M42 is needing even more. Pounds more.
I am in the process of designing a new base for my LB16. I believe I will achieve the goals of having a base that is not only smaller and lighter but will also utilize some physics to allow me to use my Stellarvue F60, telrad, paracorr, and 31mm Nagler with no counterweights at all. The math seems to work - I just need to buy the plywood and the ebony star. If it works as planned I'll post the details.
Post Extras:
Fireball
professor emeritus

#4973609 - 12/19/11 05:34 AM
Reged: 03/24/06
Quote:
... I believe I will achieve the goals of having a base that is not only smaller and lighter but will also utilize some physics to allow me to use my Stellarvue F60, telrad, paracorr, and 31mm Nagler with no counterweights at all. The math seems to work - I just need to buy the plywood and the ebony star. If it works as planned I'll post the details.
You will need bigger bearings or shift the original aluminum ones upwards on the LTA to get it balanced. Which way will you go? Maybe both?
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. Fireball]

#4973865 - 12/19/11 10:07 AM
Scott, I would be very interested in how you end up doing that. I have seen it done a couple of ways. The lead weights I will be sticking on will be reversible if such an idea comes to me. Just out of curiosity. Has anyone heard about somebody just removing the aluminum bearings, moving them up as far as possible on the lower UTA, re-drilling, and remounting them up higher? There is only a couple of inches
255 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
available but seems like it would help.

Post Extras:
Slartibartfast
sage

#4973958 - 12/19/11 11:00 AM
Quote:
I want to thank Bart, his thread and all the posters to his thread who lead the way for me.
You're welcome. I'm just happy that I could be a "contributor" and give back a little bit to Cloudy Nights. ThreeD,
Quote:
I am in the process of designing a new base for my LB16. I believe I will achieve the goals of having a base that is not only smaller and lighter but will also utilize some physics to allow me to use my Stellarvue F60, telrad, paracorr, and 31mm Nagler with no counterweights at all. The math seems to work - I just need to buy the plywood and the ebony star. If it works as planned I'll post the details.
I would be highly interested in seeing this. I am thinking of attempting a base rebuild maybe this spring.
Quote:
Just out of curiosity. Has anyone heard about somebody just removing the aluminum bearings, moving them up as far as possible on the lower UTA, re-drilling, and remounting them up higher?
I've thought about this too. But, the small amount of room available to move them up doesn't seem to make it worth it, at least to my thinking. But, I wonder too if anyone has had success doing so. I also wondered about machining
256 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
larger (or possibly elliptical) alt bearings, but that seems like it would be an expensive proposition. Or possibly purchasing the big alt bearings from Obsession and doing a retro-fit (might be a lot of metal work to do so).
Post Extras:
calibos
Carpal Tunnel

#4974062 - 12/19/11 11:58 AM
I had thought about moving the original bearings further up. I figured I could even go past the top rim of the LOTA. 3 Bolts should still be a secure strong mounting. I'd dremel out some slots in the aluminium bearing so I could mount the bearing with literally a third of the bearing higher then the top of the LOTA. Then Homer Simpson shouted 'DOH' !! The bottom of the LOTA would sit lower as a result and I would loose the clearance I needed for the servocat azimuth motor. Probably an option for those without a servocat or no intentions ever to get one. So I am still reliant on counterweights. One thing I would caution Doc about is building too much counterweight into the LOTA. I went down this road and quickly found that the resultant semi-permanently heavier LOTA was a PITA to lift. Yeah, I could do it, but it feeling OK and livable with during the day before other daily exertions took their toll was a different ball game to doing it in the cold at 3am when packing up to go home. My rationale for 'building in' had been two-fold, cut down the time taken for set-up and teardown affixing and removing all those farpoint and JMI counterweights and the simple fact that I was running out of space on the back of the cell!! Unfortunately as outlined above, building in had its own downsides. My new plan solves both issues I feel. Best place for counterweight for minimising the amount needed and maintaining COG for perfect balance from Horizon to zenith is on the back of the cell low down or low on the front of the OTA (assuming your focuser and thus Paracorr/EP's and finders are arrayed around the topside of the UTA) To minimise the volume of counterweight needed one wants the highest density so therefore lead is the best readily available option. You want it to be easily removable. Here is my solution (not fabricated yet)
257 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Containers made to maximise the available space, ie. Curved to fit the LOTA and squared to fit into the front corners of the base when pointed at zenith. Keyhole bolt mounting system for secure but quick removal. One can't buy lead shot without a licence in Ireland so I'll be using lead flashing cut to shape and laid in layers inside the countainers. At first I was shocked by the price of lead but then when I added up what my JMI and Farpoint steel weights cost me, its not so bad.
Post Extras:
ThreeD
professor emeritus

#4974113 - 12/19/11 12:20 PM
In my case preliminary math shows it needs to shift up a little over 4". A ST80 finder will add to that but then again you have that plate steel on the bottom. One problem with shifting the bearing is that it will reduce the clearance between the bottom of the OTA and the base - in fact I think that would be the limiting factor in how much you can shift the bearing.
258 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I have other goals as well such as reducing the height/width of the base so everything will easily fit in the back of my Prius so, yes, I will be moving to large bearings that also move the axis of rotation up the tube to the COG. Large bearings will shorten the box as well as provide other benefits. At this point I just need to reweight everything with a bit more precision to firm up my numbers.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4977694 - 12/21/11 12:04 PM
The silicone on the back of the secondary has cured for a couple of days and is well bonded. In the first pic you can see how the silicone is positioned to be centered on the mirror and not the secondary holder to minimize mirror deformation. It also shows a nice view of the air space behind the mirror. A marker blackened the edges of the secondary nicely. The whole secondary assembly went together well with the new collimation screws and washers. I roughly eyeball aligned things for now. The collimation gear will come out soon to get it just right.
259 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
One easy modification to the secondary's spider attachment was to add some washers. This spreads the pull from the spider over a bigger area allowing for increased tightening. Tight spiders mean tight collimation. The washers were painted flat black for aesthetics.
260 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Starman1
Vendor

#4977764 - 12/21/11 12:58 PM
One thing I can see you haven't yet done is to rotate the focuser to the 45 degree angle. The base plate for the focuser has 2 small setscrews in it. If loosened, the focuser can be rotated. At the 45 degree angle for the knobs, both right and left knobs are easily accessible when the telescope points up or at the horizon. As you have the focuser currently mounted, the focuser knobs are accessible at the horizon, but the left hand,
261 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
coarse-focus, knob is hard to reach when the telescope points high up. At the 45 degree rotational position of the focuser, both sides of the focuser (and the knobs on both sides) can be accessed regardless of where the telescope is pointed.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4977769 - 12/21/11 01:01 PM
UPS brought me some counter weight yesterday. We are in the home stretch now! I gently arched the strips of weights to open the cracks between them and allow for spray paint to penetrate. A quick shot of flat black multipurpose paint and the weight was ready to install after drying a few hours. There is a total of 11 strips of 6, two ounce weights. In all there are 66 two ounce weights totaling 8.25 lbs.
262 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I installed strips of 6, 5, and 4 two ounce weights in the largest areas and used singles and doubles to fill in the gaps. The double sided foam tape that came attached to the weights will be more than strong enough to hold them in place. There was over spray on the backing that came off easily with touch smudging here and there making it kind of a grubby job. It all cleaned up very easily however.
263 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
All the weight laid very nicely in the recess made by the rear seal and the original cast mirror cell. They are exactly the depth and sit flush to the cast mirror cell. Tidy and out of the way. I also like how they all fit on just the new rear seal. The mirror holder, improved springs, and upgraded collimation bolts went on next.
264 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Adding the floats made this rear cell ready for a mirror. Before putting the mirror in place I cut a couple strips of the HMWP I had left over.
265 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
The HMWP strips were placed on the side of the mirror. When the mirror is in place the nylon mirror edge support screws contact it. It is my hope that this pad of HMWP frees the mirror's edge to float a bit better than if the nylon screw contacted the rough, grippy, mirror's edge.
266 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Mirror edge holders were reattached with just a hair of light between them and the mirror's surface. The clips are to prevent the mirror from tipping forward, not to hold the mirror. Care was made to rotate the mirror around so that the center mark's three tabs lined up with the three collimation bolts. This will help me know which collimation knob to turn during collimation. I found that if I reached under the back of the mirror I could feel each of the triangle floats. I went around the whole perimeter feeling for the floats and moving them as necessary to align them optimally. They move very nicely and in a few moments the triangle floats were holding the mirror just right. A second eyepiece holder was added too. I unscrewed the one, moved it over, leveled, marked, countersunk, and screwed them both into the new locations.
267 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4977886 - 12/21/11 02:01 PM
Thanks for the tip with the focuser Don. Once upon a time I saw that done, thought of doing it, and had forgotten that little trick. The devil is in the details. Once I got M42 reassembled I loaded the UTA with the finders, popped in the Paracorr, and put the Droid in its holder. I wanted to have a basic weight load to see how the scope handled. To my joy it was very close to balanced.
268 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
In fact I would say it needed a little more butt weight. I played around with it for some time at various pointing positions and got a feel for the new action. All I can say is wow. There is a wonderful stiction and freedom of overcoming stiction to move in all ranges of motion. The extra weight also has calmed the excessive freedom and easy motion Lightbridge's have in Azimuth. The roller bearing loves the increase in weight and settled in wonderfully. Alt motion is buttery, easy, and smooth. Compared to the original felt/aluminum bearing contact this PTFE/Ebony Star is a so much superior. It moves so much easier. Even with the extra weight load the Alt motion is so much easier and smoother this really feels like a different scope. After playing around with M42 some more I determined I wanted to switch the finders and put the larger ST-80 on top and the RDF in between. A quick couple of screws, moving of the bases, and reattaching them had the swap done in moments. The pictures show the new location and change. Most notably I found that by changing the ST-80's location it now felt like I had too much butt weight. The amount of extra weight the rear feels like it has now is minimal. M42 as it is outfitted in the pictures feels perfectly balanced lower on the horizon and holds stiction almost all the way up. Once the telescope points within 10 degrees of vertical it gets a little creep and wants to continue, on its own, ever so slowly, all the way up to vertical. I am going to leave it be for now. I think the weight of the light shroud and the UTA legs I made will balance it perfectly. It is that close. I am so pleased I could jump up and down with happiness. So here are some bottom line numbers so far: Secondary Housing stock was 11 lbs. and is now 19 lbs. Trusses stock were 5 lbs. and now are 6 lbs. OTA Primary Housing was 58 lbs. and now is 78.2 lbs. Mount gained ounces and still is 54 lbs.
- Total assembled weight was 128 lbs. and now is 157.2 lbs. - That is a total increase of 29.2 pounds.
269 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
calibos
Carpal Tunnel

#4978629 - 12/21/11 09:51 PM
Doc, if its holding balance for most of the range of motion and you are just getting creep for the last 10 to zenith then I'd wager its not extra weight you need on the UTA nor removal of weight from the rear cell. You have the amount of weight just right. Its the positioning of the weight with regard to the centre of gravity. ie. when the OTA gets close to zenith enough of your counterweight on the rear cell passes under the COG to......heck, some of the physics guys will explain it All I know is, all you need to do is shift a few of your counterweight strips to the top
270 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
area of the cell (as viewed from the back with the scope pointed at the horizon) This means less weight passes under the centre of Gravity of the OTA and the creep problem will be solved. If you add weight to the UTA you'll just introduce creep when pointing at low elevations.
Post Extras:
johnnyha
Post Laureate

#4978715 - 12/21/11 11:12 PM
Looks great! Don't forget the weight of the eyepiece, a 2 lb. 31T5 Nagler could easily tip the balance the other way. Seriously - fantastic job, I was just looking back to page 1 where you first received the scope and the transformation is amazing.
Post Extras:
mmclure
sage

#4978826 - 12/22/11 12:41 AM
Reged: 12/30/10 Loc: Sacramento, CA USA
Quote:
Doc, if its holding balance for most of the range of motion and you are just getting creep for the last 10 to zenith then I'd wager its not extra weight you need on the UTA nor removal of weight from the rear cell. You have the amount of weight just right. Its the positioning of the weight with regard to the centre of gravity. ie. when the OTA gets close to zenith enough of your counterweight on the rear cell passes under the COG to......heck, some of the physics guys will explain it All I know is, all you need to do is shift a few of your counterweight strips to the top area of the cell (as viewed from the back with the scope pointed at the horizon) This means less weight passes under the centre of Gravity of the OTA and the creep problem will be solved. If you add weight to the UTA you'll just introduce creep when pointing at low elevations.
I understood that what causes the "vertical creep" is that the weight of the focuser and finder is what's causing the scope to tip up, and the counterweight should be on the opposite side of the tube, i.e. the bottom. See the discussion at Weights to stabilize XT10i and Solving Balance Problems at High Altitude Angles. I know that I put 2lb of weight as low and at the bottom of my XT10i tube and it helps immensely, although I might add 1lb more.
Post Extras:
Starman1
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16.
[Re:
Edit
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
271 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Vendor
mmclure]
#4978895 - 12/22/11 01:57 AM
Though trying to balance a scope perfectly is not going to work because eyepieces vary in weight by over 3 pounds, if you balance the scope perfectly for a particular eyepiece, it will not fall when pointed low or rise when pointed high. Balancing the scope perfectly means the center of gravity is exactly on the centerpoint of the altitude axis. It is almost never there because the accessories on the top end are always offset toward one side or the other. If counterweights are added to the opposite side of the LTA from the focuser, it might be possible to position the COG correctly, but that would be difficult in most dobs because the weight wouldn't clear the rocker box. So the easiest way to do it would be to balance the UTA radially so the COG of the UTA was dead center in the UTA. Then, add weights to the bottom so the LTA was also radially symmetric, weight-wise. I contemplated that, then realized my eyepieces varied in weight too much to accomplish that and I added a sliding weight to the LTA. Whatever works.
Post Extras:
calibos
Carpal Tunnel
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. mmclure]

#4979445 - 12/22/11 11:35 AM
Quote:
I understood that what causes the "vertical creep" is that the weight of the focuser and finder is what's causing the scope to tip up, and the counterweight should be on the opposite side of the tube, i.e. the bottom. See the discussion at Weights to stabilize XT10i and Solving Balance Problems at High Altitude Angles. I know that I put 2lb of weight as low and at the bottom of my XT10i tube and it helps immensely, although I might add 1lb more.
Thats what I said Maybe I am wrong but while one would try to arrange the counterweight on the rear cell radially opposite the largest concentration of weight on the UTA, one doesn't need to be anal about it to still achieve good balance. In other words if one estimates that most of the extra weight on the UTA (Focuser/Paracorr/EP/Finders) are arrayed around the 10 O'Clock position (as viewed from the back of the scope, one would try and get as much counterweight in the 4 O'Clock position as possible but tbh anywhere from 3 O'Clock to 9 O'Clock is probably fine. As long as the counterweight crosses under the altitude bearings at the same time as the weight on the UTA crosses over the
272 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
altitude bearings in the other direction. I think the problem with not trying to array as much as one can radially would be the scope would be slightly out of balance left/right right/left and the altitude bearing pads might wear more on one side causing stiction/friction problems or if the scope footing is not very wide it might be easier to tip it over. Not something one needs to worry about with the wide stance of the LB16. All it takes is some trial and error. I've been able to balance my scope perfectly from horizon to zenith and my scope is riding on roller bearings in altitude. (ie. as unforgiving an altitude bearing system in terms of balance there is.) As for differing EP weights. What I'll be doing is mounting a 1lb JMI weight(with clip removed) on a rail on my UTA. I will counterweight the LTA for the heaviest EP (in my case a 21mm Ethos) and with the sliding UTA weight in its rearmost position(closest to LTA). For each lighter EP, I will slide the weight forward till the scope balances again and mark a detant on the rail and label it. In other words the next detant up from the 21mm Ethos Detent will be the 17mm Ethos (I've a feeling my 3.7mm SX will be out of focal length order somewhere along the line ) This way I can adjust quickly and exactly for each EP as I swap them out without moving from the UTA.
Post Extras:
mmclure
sage

#4979795 - 12/22/11 02:37 PM
Reged: 12/30/10 Loc: Sacramento, CA USA
Quote:
Maybe I am wrong but while one would try to arrange the counterweight on the rear cell radially opposite the largest concentration of weight on the UTA, one doesn't need to be anal about it to still achieve good balance. In other words if one estimates that most of the extra weight on the UTA (Focuser/Paracorr/EP/Finders) are arrayed around the 10 O'Clock position (as viewed from the back of the scope, one would try and get as much counterweight in the 4 O'Clock position as possible but tbh anywhere from 3 O'Clock to 9 O'Clock is probably fine. As long as the counterweight crosses under the altitude bearings at the same time as the weight on the UTA crosses over the altitude bearings in the other direction.
I think we're saying the same thing, except that I think my "bottom" might be what you're calling "top". In my case the weights hang under the OTA when it's pointing to the horizon, i.e. they are on the opposite side of the OTA from the focuser/finders.
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. mmclure]
273 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
While exploring the hardware store I found this package and was surprised at its incorrect label and packaging. Somehow these handy peel and stick silicone devises were labeled as "Door Stops, Wall Mount, White". Everyone knows that theses should be labeled "Anti-Trebuchet Bumpers, Dobsonian Base Mount, White".
274 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4985616 - 12/26/11 02:12 PM
On Christmas Eve we had clear skies right after a big snow storm. It was time for first light with M42 in its current incarnation. I took time to collimate with the Catseye tools before taking everything outside. I have to say it was a snap. I had some trepidation about the new seemingly complicated system however, after reading the info they sent, reading at their website, and watching the online videos, collimating with the tools seemed second nature very soon. This is actually a very easy set to use and I was able to achieve collimation very fast. I will never be without these
275 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
tools again. The milk jug washer upgrade and new collimation screws work wonderfully. I cannot believe I waited so long for such a seemingly easy improvement. The secondary was delicately responsive and a delight to use unlike the finicky old screws I had been using. I wheeled the telescope out to the base of the driveway. Tonight it was going to be light polluted skies since I didn't have the time to take it to a dark site. The temp hovered around 20 degrees all night. Collimation was checked and was almost spot on after the trip down the drive. The mirrors only needed the slightest of touches to matters. While setting up the telescope the neighbor came by and asked if I was going to be looking for Santa. I said, "with this telescope I could see the fleas on Rudolph!"
276 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I spent the first part of the night looking at Jupiter through various eyepieces and light path combinations. I wanted to try my lightest to the heaviest EPs. Every one of them worked perfectly and as far as balance goes I think I have it just right. Once an eyepiece was in the Paracorr the slight creep that I saw pointing nearly vertical went away. It held stiction at all altitudes so well I am still shocked at how wonderful it works now. In the pictures my wife took I am using my Stratus 35 which is my largest. It is a monster that only ached for more butt weight when I pointed very low in the sky. I spun around and up to peek at Pleiades while waiting for Orion to rise above the roof of the house. It was nearly straight above. The 35 mm Stratus I was using gave views of seemingly countless stars and the balance/stiction was impeccable. Slight nudges moved the telescope to track the images without overshooting or much effort at all. I have to note that there is an increase in time it takes for the telescope to settle after moving it or focusing. I am sure the extra small bounce and rebounding that occurs is from the increased weight in the UTA. It is negligible but noticeable and only at high magnifications. I would estimate the time it took to stop wiggling was 2-3 seconds. For visual I can more than live with this. It doesn't detract from the viewing experience and the benefit of having the big ST-80 out weighs the extra settling the telescope takes now. This will also be less of a problem once I build an equatorial tracking platform. Ergonomicially the Lightbridge is now a dream. It worked in every way and has exceeded my expectations by leaps and bounds. Of course M42 rose soon and filled my eye with the best M42 views I have seen yet with this telescope, city lights or not. Popping on a Skyglow filter just magnified the beauty. Of note was the mirror and its cooling. Normally I would have to wait 30 minutes with the fan on or an hour without the fan to even come close to stable images. Since I was more concerned with function this time out I didn't wait to let the mirror cool and began viewing immediately. I was happy to find clear, stable, images. I was amazed to see images of Jupiter that showed the north and south equatorial and temperate belts and zones so clearly you could see cloudy billows. I was just able to make out the north north and south south temperate belts. I have never, repeat never, had Jupiter look so clear. These views were immediately after bringing the telescope out and I am sure there is no way the mirror had reached thermal equilibrium. I can only hypothesize that the scrubbing of the surface layer of heated air by the fan allowed for the hot mirror to function so well. I believe the heated boundary layer of air on the surface of the mirror was not allowed to form with the pulling fan and baffle set up. This now gives me immediate viewing ability and just made this brute a grab and go telescope. My wife came out (that is code for "I went to get my wife and show her what I had in the eyepiece") and was so blown away she called her sister and ranted on and on. She excited her sister so much her sister piled her two kids and husband in the car to come look at Jupiter and the stars with us. I smiled hugely to see my sister-in-law at the main eyepiece spouting off positive adjectives while at the same instant her husband was peering through the eyepiece of the ST-80 equally exhausting the list of good adjectives and they weren't crowded together. I hadn't thought of this earlier but this is a tandem telescope now also! We spent a long time Christmas Eve as a happy family of brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces and nephews laughing and loving under the stars and planets.
277 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Post Extras:
CatseyeMan
Vendor (Cats Eye Collimation)

#4985875 - 12/26/11 06:01 PM
Quote: Reged: 12/16/04 Loc: Huntsville, AL USA
... I took time to collimate with the Catseye tools before taking everything outside. I have to say it was a snap. I had some trepidation about the new seemingly complicated system however, after reading the info they sent, reading at their
278 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
website, and watching the online videos, collimating with the tools seemed second nature very soon. This is actually a very easy set to use and I was able to achieve collimation very fast. I will never be without these tools again....
I'm smiling big time too! It warms my heart to have you finally discover the magic and thrill of precision alignment and realize the maximum performance capability of your scope - Welcome to the CATSEYE devotee family! Mind if I quote you on the web site?
Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus
Re: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16. CatseyeMan]

#4986641 - 12/27/11 09:30 AM
Quote:
I'm smiling big time too! It warms my heart to have you finally discover the magic and thrill of precision alignment and realize the maximum performance capability of your scope - Welcome to the CATSEYE devotee family! Mind if I quote you on the web site?
Sure. I would be honored.

Post Extras:
Project Galileo
professor emeritus

#4986682 - 12/27/11 09:57 AM
279 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
I was just noticing the first pic of my last post shows just how hard the new fan sucks. The Astrozap light shroud is being sucked in with the cloth end cap on and is showing all the truss poles. In the other pics the light shroud relaxes since the end is open. You really can feel the air moving when this fan is on. It is silent and has no vibrations at the eyepiece even when I crank up the magnification way beyond what is reasonable to use. After being out a while I also noticed frost forming on the oak eyepiece case, car, and light post, however, the telescope and the mirrors had no dew, frost, or condensation in any way. Before the remodeling I would have noticed at a minimum frost forming on the skin of the tubes also.
Post Extras:
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (show all)
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Extra information
8 registered and 20 anonymous users are browsing this forum. Moderator: David Pavlich Print Thread Forum Permissions You cannot start new topics You cannot reply to topics HTML is disabled UBBCode is enabled Thread views: 6234
Jump to Reflectors
Jump
CN Forums
Home
280 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45
Cloudy Nights LLC Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics
281 of 281
3/30/2012 22:45

The Evolution of A Lightbridge 16

Hochgeladen von

Dokumentinformationen

Originalbeschreibung:

Originaltitel

Copyright

Verfügbare Formate

Dieses Dokument teilen

Dokument teilen oder einbetten

Freigabeoptionen

Stufen Sie dieses Dokument als nützlich ein?

Sind diese Inhalte unangemessen?

Copyright:

Verfügbare Formate

The Evolution of A Lightbridge 16

Hochgeladen von

Copyright:

Verfügbare Formate

Telescope Reviews: The Evolution of a Lightbridge 16.

Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt

Submit a Review / Article

You are not logged in. [Login]

Equipment Discussions >> Reflectors

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | (show all)