07/09/13

PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420 - DIY Electric Car Forums

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PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420

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Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 > Last Thread Tools 05-18-2008, 01:27 PM Display Modes #1 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 506

lazzer408
Senior Member

PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420

Has anyone tried building a controller based off the SG3524 (KA3524) pwm ic? Mouser $0.84. It has everything a motor controller would need. One error amp input (op-amp), one current sense input (op-amp), shutdown input, internal 5v regulator, and a totem pole output capable of driving a few gates. If you have many gates or use IGBT's you could add a TC4420 (6amp), TC4422 (9amp), or TC4452 (12amp) gate driver. Mouser $2.33 for the 6a. I wouldn't recomend using that driver on an igbt but it -could- work in a proper design. I've also designed a simple open-throttle shutdown circuit, to trigger the 3524s shutdown pin, should the throttle wire break or come loose. The throttle signal itself is used to drive a throttle ramp circuit (parallel capacitor) but I used a pnp transistor parallel with the cap to quickly discharge it on quick release of the throttle. Just a capacitor alone would not be a good idea in an emergency. I'm going to give this chip a shot on my Yamaha build and see how it works out. I'll be gutting a 1205 Curtis and putting in 200v caps and mosfets. I haven't measured the breakdown voltage on the diodes yet. I'll do that when the mosfets are out. This controller, being installed in a motorcycle, has less margin for error then a car conversion. Some of it's system are redundant, like dual main contactors for example. I can't risk a major electrical failure resulting in a runaway condition. I'm also considering a foot opperated pedal that kicks out the fuses. http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/KA/KA3524.pdf http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/e...Doc/21419c.pdf
Last edited by lazzer408; 05-18-2008 at 01:50 PM.

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05-19-2008, 01:45 AM

#2 Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 293

Dennis

Senior Member

Re: PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420

A better chip for this project is the UC3638. It has two low side drivers and two open collector transistors for the high side that you will have to make the driver section for with source/sink transistors for the mosfets. But since you are probably going to use a series wound motor, then an H-bridge configuration want do much good so you just need the low side parts of the chip. This chip also has a current limiter section built in, but it only has a gain of 5 so you will need to increase the gain with an OP amp.

05-19-2008, 03:25 AM

#3 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 506

lazzer408
Senior Member

Re: PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420

The UC3638 looks complicated. The 3524 does have 2 output transistors. They normally flip-flop which is good for a push-pull smps but I planed to parallel them. I have yet to see a pwm controller IC that has an output stage capable of driving dozens of gates quickly. The 3524 has a clsense comparator input. I'm not sure what the gain is.

05-19-2008, 03:06 PM

#4 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 506

lazzer408
Senior Member

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PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420 - DIY Electric Car Forums
Re: PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420

I picked up one of these ICs this morning and had a chance to play with it. It's very simple to wire up. I'm going to use the shutdown pin for power-on and to sense if the main contactor has been activated. I'll add a brake pedal input also. Two transistors should work fine for this. One to pull the pin low (on) to turn the controller on and the other to pull it high if the main contactor is open or the brake pedal pushed to turn it off. I may have to opto-isolate the brake pedal since it's on the 12v side. Eventually I'll have all these individual circuits compiled into a functional controller front end. It will provide 0-100% @ 6amps worth of gate drive, have multiple way's of shutdown (brake pedal disable, open main contactor disable, etc.), have adjustable low and high throttle points for calibrating the throttle pot (0-5k pot will be fine), and adjustable current limiting. The 3524s current limiting is very smooth compaired to some of the other chips I've been testing.

05-20-2008, 12:52 AM

#5 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 506

lazzer408
Senior Member

Re: PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420

Still working on this but... I built this circuit on a breadboard tonight and it seems to be working fine. I haven't even thrown the scope on it yet! Some of the values may need to be adjusted. The values for the high-throttle-shutdown comparator (bottom left) haven't been selected yet until I know what that voltage needs to be. Roughly 4v I think. The PWM is 100% by ~3.5v or so to pin-2 of the 3524. When pin-10 is held high it'll shut down the pwm output. The output of the comparator (10k) drives that pin. This circuit has a throttle trim incase your throttle doesnt sweep "exactly" from 0-2.5k. It also has a throttle ramp adjustment from almost no ramp to a few seconds to avoid jumpy starts. Releasing the throttle will bring you to 0% with no delay. It has a frequency adjust from about 10-20k and it has current detection but I may have to do some fine tuning on that. Like tie the open end of the current pot to 0v. This is working on my bench though with a 0.2-ohm shunt resistor and a treadmill motor. I can control it from 1-10 amps. The "shunt" shown in the schematic can be the controller's internal resistance. That is how Curtis does it.

Last edited by lazzer408; 06-27-2008 at 12:29 AM.

05-21-2008, 02:56 AM

#6 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 506

lazzer408
Senior Member

Re: PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420

I picked up a Curtis 1204 (works after pulling one bad A2 diode) and another 1205 that was completly blown. The 1205 will probably be my guinea pig for testing. To really put the 3524s current limit to the test, how about I punch it from a dead stop to 40mph on only 4 mosfets? I'll put the rest in later.

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07/09/13

PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420 - DIY Electric Car Forums

I'm having some trouble finding flyback diodes. I believe the "to220 style" diodes, next to the mosfets, grab the field flyback and the stud-type diodes, off the A2 terminal, grab armature flyback. The 1221, for example, is rated for 72-120v. It uses 50v/50a diodes on the A2 terminal and 600v/24a diodes on the power board. Here are the data sheets for the ones used in the 1221. I'm guessing I need something along those lines. http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/mcc/MR2401.pdf (to220) http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/2458703.pdf (stud)

05-21-2008, 07:20 AM

#7 Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 213

wakinyantanka
Senior Member

Re: PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420

Nice work on your schematic! I'm building a controller for my electric vehicle and also using 120v, although I'm going to punch it with 2120 amps when at the dragstrip. I noticed on your design you show a (x20) at the mosfet symbol. Does this indicate how many mosfets can be driven by the tc4420? I will be using 10 high current isotop mosfets and I'm wondering if the tc4420 can deliver enough amperage to open and close them properly? Mind you I do not fully understand as electronics are not my expertise. I do want to understand this and learn as much as I can though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lazzer408 Still working on this but... I built this circuit on a breadboard tonight and it seems to be working fine. I haven't even thrown the scope on it yet! Some of the values may need to be adjusted. The values for the high-throttle-shutdown comparator (bottom left) haven't been selected yet until I know what that voltage needs to be. Roughly 4v I think. The PWM is 100% by ~3.5v or so to pin-2 of the 3524. When pin-10 is held high it'll shut down the pwm output. The output of the comparator (10k) drives that pin. This circuit has a throttle trim incase your throttle doesnt sweep "exactly" from 0-2.5k. It also has a throttle ramp adjustment from almost no ramp to a few seconds to avoid jumpy starts. Releasing the throttle will bring you to 0% with no delay. It has a frequency adjust from about 10-20k and it has current detection but I may have to do some fine tuning on that. Like tie the open end of the current pot to 0v. This is working on my bench though with a 0.2-ohm shunt resistor and a treadmill motor. I can control it from 1-10 amps. The "shunt" shown in the schematic can be the controller's internal resistance. That is how Curtis does it.

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07/09/13
05-21-2008, 07:58 AM

PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420 - DIY Electric Car Forums
#8 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 506

lazzer408
Senior Member

Re: PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420

Re: I'm not a circuit designer by trade. I just dabble in it for fun and I'm learning enough to be dangerous. x20 is the number of mosfets. I had a controller (sevcon) with 64 mosfets (to220 200v ~18amp) and it used the 8-pin dip version of the 4420 as in "no heat sink" but still a 6-amp rating. The TO220 version of the 4420 could at least be mounted to the same heatsink as the mosfets or even it's own heatsink but I doubt you'll need it. If your not sure just toss in a TC4452. 12 amps baby! To give you an example of what 12a of gate drive can do... The rise time of the 4452 is only 21ns with a 10,000pF load and 42ns into a 22,000pF load. Looks fairly linear. What's the charge time on your gates? A mosfet typically has a 2000-5000pf gate. I'm way to tired to do this math but one ns is one billionth of a second. How many ns is there in one 15khz cycle? How much of that is rise time? An IRFP260 (TO247 200v, 46a .055ohm) has a delay of 23ns and a rise time of 120ns. It takes 143ns to turn it on with a 4.3ohm gate resistor and 10v of gate drive. About 2.325 amps drive for that speed. It also takes 194ns (100delay+94fall) to turn it off btw. Yeh I'm WAY to tired for this. Bottom line. I can't imagine it not being able to switch a dozen or more isotops. Anyways... it's plenty of power. You can drive multiple IGBTs with these drivers if you wanted. The manufacture even lists motors and solinoids as an application for it. Small motors ofcorse. Hopefully you own a scope. If not you will have trouble building a quality controller. The next issue is load testing it while viewing the waveform. Watch the time on and time off of the mosfets. It's during this transition that their resistance is highest. High frequencies only make that problem worse. The frequency should be high enough to maintain the field in the motor but low enough to switch on the mosfets quickly. Honestly... 1000hz is enough for these fatty series wound motors. haha Last note and I'm off to bed. It's VERY important you place a capasitor very close to the driver IC and be sure the driver IC HAS 12 amps of power. Be smart about your trace layout to the gates as well and use a series gate resistor (2.2-10 ohm) to help gate ringing. I forgot that in the schematic. You'll see it on the scope. Use the lowest resistor you can while keeping ringing to a minimum. Ringing can by in the mhz so that blurr in the pulse might not be your scope's focus! lol
Last edited by lazzer408; 05-21-2008 at 08:04 AM.

05-22-2008, 03:24 PM

#9 Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 213

wakinyantanka
Senior Member

Re: PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420

Thanks for the good info. I plan on running at 18khz and read somewhere that you should cut the driver voltage by 2/3rds. Is that correct? I do not have a scope so I would be flying in the dark. I also have seen a curtis 1505 small motor controller used to drive high power igbts. Do you know if this is something that could be done? He said he simply used it as a driver board that way he had plenty of amps available for all of his to-247 igbts. Seems to me that would be the simplest route to take as then you could concentrate on the high power side, keeping it cool and making sure you had the correct capacitors. What do you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lazzer408 Re: I'm not a circuit designer by trade. I just dabble in it for fun and I'm learning enough to be dangerous. x20 is the number of mosfets. I had a controller (sevcon) with 64 mosfets (to220 200v ~18amp) and it used the 8-pin dip version of the 4420 as in "no heat sink" but still a 6-amp rating. The TO220 version of the 4420 could at least be mounted to the same heatsink as the mosfets or even it's own heatsink but I doubt you'll need it. If your not sure just toss in a TC4452. 12 amps baby! To give you an example of what 12a of gate drive can do... The rise time of the 4452 is only 21ns with a 10,000pF load and 42ns into a 22,000pF load. Looks fairly linear. What's the charge time on your gates? A mosfet typically has a 2000-5000pf gate. I'm way to tired to do this math but one ns is one billionth of a second. How many ns is there in one 15khz cycle? How much of that is rise time? An IRFP260 (TO247 200v, 46a .055ohm) has a delay of 23ns and a rise time of 120ns. It takes 143ns to turn it on with a 4.3ohm gate resistor and 10v of gate drive. About 2.325 amps drive for that speed. It also takes 194ns (100delay+94fall) to turn it off btw. Yeh I'm WAY to tired for this. Bottom line. I can't imagine it not being able to switch a dozen or more isotops. Anyways... it's plenty of power. You can drive multiple IGBTs with these drivers if you wanted. The manufacture even lists motors and solinoids as an application for it. Small motors ofcorse.

Hopefully you own a scope. If not you will have trouble building a quality controller. The next issue is load testing it while viewing the waveform. Watch the time on and time off of the mosfets. It's during this transition that their resistance is highest. High frequencies only make that problem worse. The frequency should be high enough to maintain the field in the motor but low enough to switch on the mosfets quickly. Honestly... 1000hz is enough for these fatty series wound motors. haha Last note and I'm off to bed. It's VERY important you place a capasitor very close to the driver IC and be sure the driver IC HAS 12 amps of power. Be smart about your trace layout to the gates as well and use a series gate resistor (2.2-10 ohm) to help gate ringing. I forgot that in the schematic. You'll see it on the scope. Use the lowest resistor you can while keeping ringing to a minimum. Ringing can by in the mhz so that blurr in the pulse might not be your scope's focus! lol

05-22-2008, 03:57 PM

#10 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 506

lazzer408
Senior Member

www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/pwm-controller-design-sg3524-and-tc4420-13763.html

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07/09/13

PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420 - DIY Electric Car Forums
Re: PWM controller design. SG3524 and TC4420

Well... I have 5 Curtis controllers laying around and a few control boards from some others. If I thought it was easier I'd be using them instead of building my own control circuit/driver with the 3524. =) On another note... This is a clip of how well a 3524 can actually be controlled. Let's see a curtis do that.

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