Atheist 1 says:

September 7, 2013 at 4:39 am

Epistemology evolved, just as self-consciousness did. I can trust my knowledge and my senses to the same extent and for the same reason I breathe: because it works to keep me alive. It evolved to do so, and it does pretty well. What need have I of absolute certainty?This is just a relict of the way words work. While useful and indeed indispensable in circumscribed systems of formal logic such as mathematics, theres no guarantee that anything like absolute certainty about the Universe as a whole is forthcoming.

cheers from sunny Vienna,

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James Lashley says:

September 7, 2013 at 9:27 am

Epistemology evolved, just as self-consciousness did. I can trust my knowledge and my senses to the same extent and for the same reason I breathe: because it works to keep me alive. It evolved to do so, and it does pretty well.

So pragamitism is the test for truth?If it works, then its true?

What need have I of absolute certainty?This is just a relict of the way words work. While useful and indeed indispensable in circumscribed systems of formal logic such as mathematics, theres no guarantee that anything like absolute certainty about the Universe as a whole is forthcoming.

Are you absolutely certain of that?

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Atheist 2 says:

September 7, 2013 at 11:29 am

Asking are you absolutely certain of that?

This is the absurdity if presuppositional apologetics.

Its childish and dishonest.

[Dr. Lisle: Actually it is quite an intelligent and revealing question, though you seem to have missed it. A person who argues that nothing can be known for certain is being inconsistent if he thinks that his belief is itself certain. On the other hand, if he thinks he can be wrong about nothing being certain, then he admits to the possibility that indeed things can be certain. The question shows the intellectual inconsistency of the position. Do you understand now?]

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Atheist 1 says:

September 7, 2013 at 2:28 pm

James- some kinds of truth are only approacheable through pragmatism- what works is all we have. But thats okay- it works to assume the Sun will come up in the East tomorrow, even though I cant be absolutely certain of it.

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James Lashley says:

September 7, 2013 at 3:36 pm

Bless you (atheist name...), Please dont think I am trying to be rude or just contentious.

James- some kinds of truth are only approacheable through pragmatism- what works is all we have.

Is this assertion absolutely true, or a pragmatically true?

But thats okay- it works to assume the Sun will come up in the East tomorrow, even though I cant be absolutely certain of it

Are you absolutely certain, that you cant be absolutely certain of it?

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Atheist 1 says:

September 7, 2013 at 4:08 pm

James- dont worry, you dont seem rude or merely contentious to me. Thanks for your concern.

That said, Ill do my best to answer. Yes, my assertion is pragmatically true. The Sun continues to rise in the East, morning after morning, even though I see no way of being absolutely certain of its continuing. But my pragmatic certainty is high en ough that I would bet my life on it.

Likewise, I cant be absolutely certain that Im not a brain in a vat. But Im willing to live with that uncertainty.

And to answer your second question, no, I am not absolutely certain that I cant be absolutely certain about it. But it doesnt seem likely,barring a revelation by the Sun God - or getting hit on the head with a rock.

People say theyre absolutely certain of things all the time- and often theyre wrong. Id rather be wrong about things I dont believe in absolutely, but merely pragmatically- then I wont explode.

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James Lashley says:

September 8, 2013 at 3:19 am

That said, Ill do my best to answer. Yes, my assertion is pragmatically true. The Sun continues to rise in the East

But, you dont know that your (assertion is pragmatically true) with absolute certainty?

Likewise, I cant be absolutely certain that Im not a brain in a vat. But Im willing to live with that uncertainty.

But, you dont know that (your willing to live with that) with absolute certainty?

And to answer your second question, no, I am not absolutely certain that I cant be absolutely certain about it. But it doesnt seem likely

But, you dont know that (it doesnt seem likely) with absolute certainty?

People say theyre absolutely certain of things all the time- and often theyre wrong

But, you dont know (theyre wrong) with absolute certainty? Would it be fair to say you live in a world of I dont know?

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Atheist 1 says:

September 8, 2013 at 2:07 pm

James- I dont understand your question. Ive already told you I dont know these things with absolute certainty. Asking if I know that I dont know with absolute certainty doesnt make sense. If you like,Ill say that my uncertainty goes all the way down the infinite regress youve made of it, but that infinite regress has no informational value. Its just a word trick, with no real-world referent.

Can you show me whats the difference between claiming that you are absolutely certain of something, or claiming that you are not absolutely certain, but, say, certain enough to bet your life on something, say the Sun rising? Does it make you a better person?Do you behave more nicely or more accurately?Are you happier?I dont get the point.

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James Lashley says:

September 9, 2013 at 9:39 am

Firstly. Thank you for your time in indulging me in dialogue, and for your congenial demeanor. I am very much appreciative. And again, please do not construe my challenges as personal attacks. If I seem a bit coarse, please do forgive me, it is not intentional.

Its just a word trick,

Its not a word trick. I am simply holding you to the standard you have dictated for yourself. As it seems you set the same and then appear to make knowledge claims expecting them to be accepted as valid. I responded to your original post because I saw it as an assertion on your part as a truth claim. But given your admitted uncertainty why should this, or any other claim, be accepted as valid?

with no real-world referent.

In an earlier post you stated you couldnt be certain you werent a brain in a v at. However, you now presume to inform me regarding reality.

Can you show me whats the difference between claiming that you are absolutely certain of something, or claiming that you are not absolutely certain, but, say, certain enough to bet your life on something, say the Sun rising?

Pragmatism fails in that one needs to know the proper function of a thing before one can determine if it works or not. That very thing pragmatism cannot give you. It doesnt tell us if something is good, right, or true. Consider as well, that what is true may not have an immediate pragmatic practical connection. I would also question, how can we discern what is true between one persons pragmatic experience and anothers separate experience? I understand that you say it works. But, why do you assume it will work?You use induction within your worldview, however, how does your worldview justify the same?

Does it make you a better person?Do you behave more nicely or more accurately?Are you happier?I dont get the point.

According to your worldview, from what, or where, do you derive a morality?I have the capability in mine to say I am absolutely certain that it is wrong to torture and murder for fun.

(Atheist name...), this is what I contend. You do have absolute certainty about some things. However, you suppress the truth in unrighteousness. I would encourage you to take Colossians 2:2-3 to heart, (I want their hearts to be encouraged and joined together in love, so that they may have all the riches of assured understanding and have the knowledge of Gods mystery Christ. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him.) Herein lies the key. Recognize that you, as have I and everyone else, have sinned against a Holy God. Turn from that sin and accept Christs sacrifice for it (past, present, and future). And confess Him as your Savior and Lord. My prayers will be for you. God Bless.

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Atheist 1 says:

September 9, 2013 at

1:34 pm

James- thanks for the considerate tone. But Im afraid we will have to agree to disagree.

You say that I am making truth claims for my worldview, but ask why you should accept any claims I make, since I admit uncertainty. First off- you dont have to accept any claims I make. Im just telling you my point of view. Second- you are assuming, without stating so, that any claim that is not absolutely certain is not valid. But why? Many things in the world, even in your world, are obviously uncertain, but Im pretty sure you still regard them as truths-for instance, that children should not play on freeways, even though its not certain they would come to harm.

And as I said, its obviously the case that people often are absolutely certain about things that are wrong. For instance, you, as a Christian, believe that Jesus is God, or the Son of God. Are you absolutely certain?Well, I know lots of Muslims who are just as sure as you are that Mohammad was a prophet of Allah. You cant both be right, can you?That means that its quite possible to be absolutely certain and to be wrong- and Im sure you can think of many other examples yourself.

So absolute certainty is just another claim which might also be wrong. What advantage do you get from claiming absolute certainty?

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James Lashley says:

September 9,

2013 at 5:51

pm

Sorry (atheist name...), I posted in the wrong place. Look below.

Atheist 2 says:

September 8, 2013 at 5:43 pm

You dont know anything with absolute certainty. Youre a liar if you say otherwise.

[Dr. Lisle: Are you absolutely certain of your claim itself?If not, then you cannot rationally state, "You're a liar if you say otherwise." The claim "You don't know anything with absolute certainty" is an absolute claim, and you stated it as if you knew it with certainty. Do you?]

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Atheist 1 says:

September 9, 2013 at 2:21 am

I dont think youre necessarily a liar if you claim to be absolutely certain about something, Brad. You can also simply be mistaken. To me, lying implies being aware that one is not truthful.

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Atheist 2 says:

September 9, 2013 at 4:54 pm

Mr. Lisle, I refuse to call you doctor.

I know some things with absolute certainty.

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Atheist 2 says:

September 9, 2013 at 4:55 pm

How do you know I cannot be absolutely certain?

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James Lashley says:

September 9, 2013 at 5:40 pm

I equate knowledge as a justified true belief. If someone thinks they know something, but in reality what they think they know is false. Then they, in fact, did not have valid knowledge or simple put, they did not know it.

At this point, since you have given up absolute certainty in regards to knowledge and you are just telling me your point of view, I see no point in continuing. Your uncertainty of your uncertainty, serves to concede that my certainty is possible. With my worldview, I can claim absolute certainty. Whereas for you to actually refute my claim with any validity, you must step out of your uncertainty. Otherwise, you are a man with his eyes closed claiming blindness, telling myself and others that we also are blind, despite our telling you we see light.

With that, my friend I will give you the last word. As it appears we may be running out of room.

God Bless you my friend.

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Atheist 1 says:

September 10, 2013 at

2:08 am

We always do run out of room in the end, do we not?Thanks for the cordial exchange, James.

You say that I cannot refute your worldview with any validity. I agree: with your standards for absolute certainty or nothing, thats correct. However, I dont wish to refute your worldview. I dont see the need for it myself- my life is fine and dandy without it- but if it makes you happy, then more power to you.

cheers from cool Vienna,