THE WHITE HOUSE

Office of the Press Secretary

Internal Transcript December 11, 2001

INTERVIEW OF THE VICE PRESIDENT

BY
JIM ANGLE OF FOX TV NEWS

Q Mr. Vice President, thanks for joining us.

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Jim.
Q Let me ask you first, the President commemorated
the three months since the terrorist attacks. And in the
ceremonies, the President said, we will never forget what we
have lost and what we have found. Aside from the loss of so
many precious lives, what did we lose in this terrible
tragedy, and what did we find?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I think in terms of loss,
one of the things that comes to mind is the sense of
invulnerability that we've enjoyed now for a couple of
centuries as a country. We were behind two oceans, and
therefore, relatively immune to attack; concerned,
obviously, during the Cold War about the possibility of
global war, but we managed all that. I think that's a
significant change.
I guess in terms of what we've sort of reaffirmed or
found, I think of it in-terms of our sense of national
unity, our commitment to defeat terrorism on a global basis,
the determination with which the countries responded to the
task at hand.
Q Do you think that that determination will hold?
There is always a worry that as we make gains and perhaps as
we finish off what is happening in Afghanistan, that people
will lose interest.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I think it will hold. I've
been pleasantly surprised, so far, at how well it has held.
Of course, if there is another terrorist attack, that will,
I think, without question, reaffirm some of the judgments
that were made in the immediate aftermath of September llth

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 Q To your knowledge -- I'm sorry -- to your
knowledge, have we foiled any terrorist attack since
} September llth?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I believe we have. It would be
hard to put your finger on any one specific thing, but there
has been speculation, for example, that there was a fifth
terrorist team, other kinds of activities planned various
places around the world, and that's been disrupted, or those
activities have been disrupted as a result of our
cooperation with other law enforcement agencies.
Our work with joint intelligence operations, I think,
putting the heat on the al Qaeda and on bin Laden in
Afghanistan as we have, has made it very difficult for them
to be able to plan for their operations, because of the
intense military pressure they're under.
That doesn't mean there won't be more, but I think
we've clearly disrupted their whole network.
Q In Afghanistan, are we now witnessing the last
stand of Osama bin Laden?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I hope so. I think the results to
date have been very, very good. And the Taliban clearly is
v finished as a military organization. A lot of the al Qaeda
\s been hard-hit, especially in recent days with our
attacks up in the Tora Bora section. Whether or not he
escapes and lives to fight another day I think is still an
open question. Hopefully, we'll get him wrapped up in
Afghanistan. But wherever he goes, we'll get him
eventually.
Q You've seen the videotape, the most recent
videotape of bin Laden. He not only displays what I'm told
is advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks, but also
seems to be gloating over the number of deaths.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: The — of course, I don't speak
Arabic, so I'm relying upon what someone told me he was
saying. I did see the tape. The impact of it is that the -
- a certain amount of cynicism, as well, too. I mean, he
talks about young men who were part of the hijacking crew
who did not know they were going to die, that they may well
not have all been as committed to suicide as were the
pilots.
So there is a degree of, I guess, evil that comes
through when you think about what he's saying and sort of
the juxtaposition of that with his disappearance.
\ But he's clearly smiling, and --

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 THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. Smiling and very much
engaged with another individual talking about when these
events occurred and how he was notified and how he was
surprised, for example, at the extent of destruction. He
did not think the Trade Center would collapse.
Q How close are we to accomplishing what we've set
out to do in Afghanistan?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We're close in the sense that
we've clearly taken the Taliban out of power; they're
history. We've not yet wrapped up Mullah Omar, but I expect
we'll do that shortly. We've had a significant impact on
the al Qaeda network and disrupting that whole operation,
and they had a base in Afghanistan that's now been pretty .
well destroyed.
The one remaining major piece of business there, of
course, is to get Osama bin Laden as well, too. But I think
that will happen. But the ability of the al Qaeda to use
Afghanistan as a base to launch attacks against our
embassies, against our naval vessels, against now the United
States directly, has been pretty well destroyed.
Afghanistan, I don't think, will again serve that purpose.
That doesn't mean that they can't strike with other cells
that are already out there in this worldwide network they've
created. It doesn't mean they can reestablish themselves
someplace else.
But I think it would be very unlikely that any other
government or country would want to receive Osama bin Laden,
given what happened to the Taliban.
Q Well, where does the war against terrorism go
after Afghanistan?" What's the next step?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We've got the network, if you
will, al Qaeda network, that clearly exists around the
world. The estimates of how many people went through the
training camps in Afghanistan runs as high as 70,000; that's
the high side estimate.
There are cells in 50 or 60 countries around the world,
many of them good friends of the United States. They're
clearly there oftentimes surreptitiously, but we've
uncovered al Qaeda operatives during the course of this
investigation; for example, in Germany, in Hamburg; Spain, a
lot of other places around the world, too.
We've got to go wrap all those up. We've got to deny
them the ability to operate. We also need to drive their
financial resources, which we're doing. But also, we need

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to work on the nongovernmental organizations and the
charitable foundations that they've often used in the past
to provide cover, logistics support, financing for their
activities.
Q Now, there is talk of going after al Qaeda cells
in the remote, more lawless areas of Somalia, the
Philippines, Indonesia. Do you envision U.S. troops working
around the world to track down and bring to justice al Qaeda
terrorists who have found their way to some other country?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: It's possible, Jim. But you've
got to remember the President's decision, really -- it was
the very first night of the crisis back on September llth --
was that this was going to be a multi-faceted affair. Some
military, but it's also law enforcement, it's intelligence,
it's financial and diplomatic, and I think in many cases
we'll find that those cells can be wrapped up with the
cooperation of the government where they're located.
A lot of those are close friends of the United States,
and they're eager to work with us in doing that.
There may be a few cases where military force is the
only option, or where military force is required for one
reason or another to wrap up these cells. And when that's
the case, the President, I'm sure, will do whatever is
necessary to achieve that objective.
Q There have been several reports that Somalia is
one of those places; that it's lawless, that there are
places where al Qaeda can hide that are beyond any
government, and where it might be necessary for us to act.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: _There's speculation about a lot of
places. I don't want to be specific about any one
particular one; that would be sort of forecasting, if you
will, operational details and I don't want to do that.
Somalia is clearly one of those places where there is
no central government that controls all the real estate, and
where the possibility exists that an organization could
operate with impunity and not be subjected to local law
enforcement, and therefore represent a threat to its
neighbors, or the United States.
Q What have we learned about the so-called "Arab or
Muslim street," from this encounter in Afghanistan? There
was a lot of talk beforehand about what would happen if the
U.S. went to war against Muslims, even though it had Muslims
on its side? What have we learned about that factor in the
Muslim world?

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 THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think we've been successful in
conveying a couple of things. I think we've worked hard to
make it clear that this is not a war against Islam. We're
not out to persecute Muslims by any means. We are out to
wrap up terrorist networks. And there's a major distinction
to be made there, and I think we've successfully made that
distinction.
I think it's also fair to say that they respect
success. And they've seen President Bush's determination.
They have seen his leadership, the way he's pulled together
the world, the international community, and seen what
happened to the Taliban. And that's left, I think, no doubt
in anybody's mind that we're deadly serious, that we mean
business, and that we'll do whatever is required to
eliminate this scourge.
Q No doubt that they can be the next target if
they're not cooperating in the war against terrorism?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, it's not so much that, that
they could be the next target, but that we are justified in
what we're doing, that the attack on 9/11 was deadly
serious, that it wasn't an attack just against the United
States, but some 80 countries lost people -- many Muslims
died in the World Trade Center in New York -- and that we're
prepared to exercise the kind of leadership and use whatever
capability is required in order to end the threat to the
United States and to other nations around the world.
Many of these other countries, too, where we talk about
the Arab street, for example, have been targets, themselves,
of terrorism. A lot of -- for example, Egyptians have been
involved in the al Qaeda network. Part of that goes back to
1981 when Anwar Sadat was assassinated by the Muslim _
brotherhood", Islamic Jihad.
So there are a lot of victims of terror around the
world who I think welcome the leadership the U.S. has
provided, especially in the Arab world.
Q The President is talking about the dangers of
proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. What is the
administration's chief concern at this moment on that front?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: It used to be if you worried about
nuclear weapons, or biological or chemical weapons, you
worried about the capabilities of a state, of another
government. And you could deal with that by deterring them
from using those weapons, by holding things they valued at
risk: international agreements, inspection regimes and so
forth.

000180
 What's new and different now after 9/11, in addition to
our recognized vulnerability, but is the emerging link, if
you will, between the terrorists on the one hand and weapons
of mass destruction on the other. A nuclear weapon in the
hand of a terrorist is a very different proposition than a
nuclear weapon in the hand of a state. Now, you can't deter
a terrorist. What are you going to hold at risk? What does
he care about defending? Arms control agreements?
Meaningless to a terrorist. Summitry? Diplomacy? How do
you deal with a terrorist with a nuclear weapon, who is
prepared to not only slaughter Americans, but to die himself
in the act?
That's new. And what that requires is for us to
address the terrorism problem, but it means terrorism now,
in a much broader sense than before, in the sense that we'.re
not talking just about hijacking airliners or holding
hostages or conventional explosives, we're talking about the
possibility that at some point, one of these organizations,
maybe al Qaeda or others, could be successful in their
efforts to acquire nuclear weapons or biological or chemical
weapons and use them against the United States.
Q Now, one of the fears for many years has been that
Saddam Hussein in Iraq, who is developing weapons of mass
destruction, when the President answered a couple of
questions recently about Iraq, his remarks were widely
interpreted as a sign that the administration is looking at
Iraq as the next target in the war on terrorism.
Has that decision been made?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I would say that we're looking at
all areas of the world that could conceivably threaten the
United States or our friends. And Iraq is of concern,
because of Saddam Hussein's track record, because he has
tried aggressively to develop weapons of mass destruction.
He was well on his way to developing nuclear weapons in 1981
when the Israelis destroyed the Osirik reactor. He was well
on his way again 10 years later in 1991, when we invaded and
took out much of his WMD capability; and he's trying again
now.
He's kicked the inspectors out three years ago, so he's
had plenty of time, using his oil revenues, the part of it
that comes around the Food for Peace program, or Oil for
Food program, using that to acquire new capabilities, deadly
capabilities. So he is clearly a threat to his neighbors.
He's used them. There is almost no one in the world who has
used these weapons in recent years except Saddam Hussein.
He's used chemical agents against both the Iranians as well
as his own people, the Kurds in the north.

000181
 Q So would you say it is -- if he doesn't change his
ways, that it is inevitable that Iraq will become a target
in this war, if -- even if it's not imminent?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I never say anything is
inevitable, Jim. But if I were Saddam Hussein, I would be
thinking very carefully about the future, and I would be
looking very closely to see what happened to the Taliban in
Afghanistan.
Q Now, the Iraqi National Congress, the opposition
to Saddam, has been getting some money from the United
States; that money runs out at the end of December. And in
the past, we have not allowed them to spend that money on
military training or for operations inside Iraq. Will they
get more money? Can — will those prohibitions be lifted?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: The policy towards Iraq clearly is
going to evolve over time. But they remain very much an
area of concern for us because of the threat that Saddam
Hussein has represented in the past and does in the future.
In the course of addressing that threat, we'll want to
work with our friends and allies in the region. We'll want
to work, I think, with the Iraqi opposition, with the Iraqi
National Congress. I personally met with Mr. Chalabi myself
in years past, and I would expect that they will be a part
of a continuing effort as we think about how best to deal
with that threat.
Q But a little premature to talk about military
operations inside Iran?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I don't like to predict what we
will or won't do. And my old friend, .Don RumsfLeld, would be
all "over my case were I to forecast military operations.
(Laughter.)
Q Now, the administration recently took action for
the first time against a terrorist group that was not
associated with the attacks on September llth -- Hamas --
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right.
Q — in the West Bank. And you used the same
definition about them: A terrorist group of global reach.
Are we broadening the war on terrorism now beyond those who
are responsible for the attack on us in September?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: The President has talked
consistently since 9/11, although the focal point,
obviously, was al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, those
responsible for the 9/11 attack. This is a broad problem

000182
that affects a lot of nations around the globe, and it's not
limited to just one organization.
The al Qaeda network now, of course, is heavily infused
with Egyptians, Islamic Jihad; Egyptian Islamic Jihad has
merged with his operation. The Uzbeks have been faced with
a terrorist threat that again was part of the operation, the
leader of the Uzbek, or one of the leaders of the Uzbek
movement may have been killed in Afghanistan.
Now, the situation with respect to Hamas, of course,
and what we did there was to move against an organization
here in the United States that we believe provides financial
support to Hamas and to their terrorist operations, in this
particular case in Palestine. And we've made it clear that
this is a war against terror, and we've defined it as such.
Q One of the interesting things here is that Arafat
seems to have painted himself into a corner. He's now
caught between the Israelis, and many Palestinians, who see
anyone fighting against Israel as a champion of their cause.
What do you see as the benefits for Arafat doing what we
would like him to do? Obviously, it's going to be tough for
him. There are political risks, there are personal risks.
What are the incentives for him to really crack down on
terrorists, once and for all?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think you've got to go back and
look at history, and remember how we got to the point where
we had ongoing negotiations between Arafat and the Israelis.
Arafat and the PLO were run out of Jordan, they were run out
of Lebanon. They were living in Tunisia; Arafat was
himself. He returned to Israel after there had been an
agreement that he would renounce violence, recognize the
right of Israel to exist and enter into negotiations along
the lines of the Resolutions 242 and 338, and trading land
for peace.
And that was what got us to the point we're in now.
Now, as he tolerates terrorism as -- I don't want to say he
encourages it, but he certainly has not controlled it from
Palestinian territory -- he's sort of destroyed, if you
will, the framework of the understanding under which those
negotiations were going to move forward.
The thing that he puts at risk here, I think, is his
own continued operation with respect to the effort to try to
establish a Palestinian homeland. The people of Palestine
are ultimately the ones who suffer most here. Because as
long as the violence continues in terms of not just military
conflict, but aggressive suicide bomber attacks against
civilians, against women and children, against discos and

000183
pizza parlors and shopping malls, there isn't any way, in my
opinion, that we're going to see a resumption of true
progress towards peace in the Middle East.
He has to control those attacks from Palestinian
territory, or I'm afraid we'll see the continued kind of
problem that we've got at present.
Q If he takes that path, though, what is at the end
of it for him? I mean, he obviously has to make a tough
decision.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, if he's successful — he
does have to make a tough decision, but I think there's only
one decision he can make. If he's not able to control
terrorist attacks coming from his territory against Israel,
then he's not a reliable partner. He's not someone you can
enter into an agreement with, with respect to a permanent
arrangement for peace. No one is going to trust him with
respect to being the presiding authority, if you will, with
respect to a Palestinian homeland. We're not going to get
any farther down the road.
And the unfortunate thing, of course, if that happens
is that the losers will be especially the Palestinians. I
think they've got more at stake here than anybody else.
Q One domestic question before I let you go. The
war on terrorism is expensive. We're now talking about
being in deficits for two, three, maybe more years. Do some
of the domestic priorities of the administration, some of
the domestic priorities of the country, now have to take a
back seat for a while?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I don't think.so. We have
continued to make progress on tax policy; of course, we got
that done before the September attack. We're back now
trying to get a stimulus package through to give the economy
a shot coming into next year. But we're very close to
having the education bill wrapped up. That's been a very
important priority for us and we're making significant
progress there.
So I don't believe that there is any reason why we have
to suspend, if you will, activity on domestic issues. I
know the President feels strongly about wanting to move
forward in that area. Part of the struggle against
terrorism, if you will, is not to let them throw us off
stride, not to react in a way that allows them to destroy
our way of life, or detract us from other important
responsibilities as well, too.

000184
 Q You know, there are a lot of professional second-
guessers, people who said we couldn't possibly have a war
during Ramadan, that we couldn't possibly win before the
winter, that General Franks didn't know what he was doing.
Are you occasionally tempted to say, I told you so?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I have said that a few times. I
have, indeed. (Laughter.)
Q One other point. One of the most interesting
things out of this is the sudden popularity of Donald
Rumsfeld. And I understand that some members of the
administration have been teasing him a bit and suggesting
that he has become a "babe magnet" for the 70-year-old set.
(Laughter.)
THE VICE PRESIDENT: There is a lot of good-natured
ribbing that Don has to suffer these days, but he seems to
enjoy it. He's thrived on it. The latest report I heard
was a rumor that his afternoon Pentagon briefing is taking
audience share away from the afternoon soap operas. So I
don't know who is watching him out there, but it appears to
be a fairly significant group.
Q Mr. Vice President, thank you very much for your
time, sir.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
Q Appreciate it.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Good to see you.
END

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