Transcript For Evidentiary Hearing On 09.18.2013

STATE OF NEW YORK DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SERVICE
THREE EMPIRE STATE PLAZA, ALBANY, NY 12223-1350

www.dps.ny.gov
PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION

AUDREY ZIBELMAN
Chair
PATRICIA L. ACAMPORA
GARRY A. BROWN
GREGG C. SAYRE
DIANE X. BURMAN
Commissioners
PETER McGOWAN
General Counsel
KATHLEEN H. BURGESS
Secretary
Re: Case 12-T-0248

NYSEG Columbia County Transmission Project September 18, 2013
** Please note this is a Preliminary transcript, subject to later edits when reviewed by the
Administrative Law Judges assigned to the cases.
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STATE OF NEW YORK

PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION
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APPLICATION OF NEW YORK STATE ELECTRIC and GAS

CORPORATION FOR A CERTIFICATE OF ENVIRONMENTAL
COMPATIBILITY AND PUBLIC NEED FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF
THE "COLUMBIA COUNTY TRANSMISSION PROJECT,"
APPROXIMATELY 11.1 MILES OF 115 KILOVOLT TRANSMISSION
LINES AND RELATED FACILITIES IN THE TOWNS OF CHATHAM,
GHENT, AND STOCKPORT, IN COLUMBIA COUNTY
CASE# 12-T-0248
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Tuesday, September 18, 2013

9:30 a.m.
Third Floor Hearing Room
Three Empire State Plaza
Albany, New York 12223-1350
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A.L.J. ELEANOR STEIN

Administrative Law Judge
800.523.7887
Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc.

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-18-2013

APPEARANCES:
FOR PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION:
STEVEN BLOW, ESQ.
STAFF COUNSEL
OFFICE OF GENERAL COUNSEL
NEW YORK STATE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION
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ANDREW C. DAVIS
Utility Supervisor
Office of Energy Efficieny and the
Environment
NEW YORK STATE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION
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FOR DEPARTMENT OF STATE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AND MARKETS:
CHRIS CUDDEBACK, ESQ.
SENIOR ATTORNEY
108 Airline Drive
Albany, New York 12235
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MATTHEW J. BROWER
Agricultural Resource Specialist
Division of Land and Water Resources
108 Airline Drive
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NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL

CONSERVATION:
LISA A. WILKINSON, ESQ.
Office of General Counsel
625 Broadway 14th Floor
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SARAH EVANS
DIVISION OF ENVIRONMENTAL PERMITS
625 Broadway 14th Floor
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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-18-2013
NEW YORK STATE ELECTRIC AND GAS:
CULLEN and DYKMAN, LLP

BY: DAVID T. METCALFE, ESQ.
ANGELA N. CASCIONE, ESQ.
100 Quentin Roosevelt Blvd.
Garden City, New York 11530
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FOR TOWN OF GHENT:

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GREENBERG & GREENBERG
BY: MARK DAVID GREENBERG
Four East Court Street
Hudson, New York 12534
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FOR PROTECT GHENT:
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GREENBERG TRAURIG
BY: WILLIAM A. HURST, ESQ.
54 State Street, 6th Floor
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PANEL:
Carol Howland
Sarah Gilstrap
Dusty Werth
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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-18-2013
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(The hearing resumed at 9:36

a.m.)
A.L.J. STEIN:
Good Morning.
This is Judge Stein.
hearing where we left off yesterday.
We'll now pick up this
I have circulated a revised
schedule for today's cross examination and we're
going to resume with cross examination of the
10
panel, consisting of Carol Howland, Sarah Gilstrap,
11
and Dusty Werth.
12
the representative for the Town of Ghent.
And our first attorney will be
13
MR. GREENBERG:
14
A.L.J. STEIN:
15
Would you like
this exhibit marked for identification?
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17
Thank you, Judge.
MR. GREENBERG:
Yes, I would,
please, Judge.
18
A.L.J. STEIN:
19
marked Exhibit Number Forty-six.
20
MR. GREENBERG:
This will be
And I would just
21
describe that as a informational request and
22
response to Protect Ghent's response number --
23
request date August 29th, 2013, with response
24
number C.C.T.P. dash twelve dash zero seven two.
25
And this is Dusty Werth and Timothy -- Timothy
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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-18-2013

Lynch.
A.L.J. STEIN:
two-page document.
Thank you.
as Exhibit Number Forty-six.
And this is a
That will be marked
MR. GREENBERG:
Thank you, Judge.
Well, good morning, Ms. Howland, Ms. Gilstrap, Mr.
Werth, your Honor.
Just a couple questions of the
10
panel, regarding the Town of Ghent Comprehensive
11
Plan.
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13
14
15
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. GREENBERG:
Q.
that yesterday.
I believe you made reference to

Is that correct?
16
A.
(Werth)
17
Q.
Now, did you review the Town of
Yes.
18
Ghent Comprehensive Plan, in connection with your
19
route planning?
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
And that was both for the -- the
22
four alternative routes, as well as the four
23
thirty-four point five kV alternative routes?
24
A.
Correct.
25
Q.
And did you review the entire
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Howland/Gilstrap/Werth - Cross - Greenberg

Town of Ghent Comprehensive Plan?
A.
We did.
Q.
Thank you.
Now, if you could
take a look at figure three dash four, which is
entitled Columbia County Transmission Project,
figure three dash four, NYSEG thirty-four point
five kV alternative.
the response to the June 22nd, 2012 Appendix A,
10
I believe that was part of
information request?
11
Is that right, Mr. Metcalfe?
12
MR. METCALFE:
That would be
13
correct.
But more specifically, it was one of the
14
additional info -- information requests, and
15
specifically, B as in boy.
16
MR. GREENBERG:
17
A.L.J. STEIN:
18
Thank you, sir.

I'm sorry.
What
are we looking at?
19
MR. GREENBERG:
20
Judge, which is figure three dash four, which is a
21
map actually of the planned route for a thirty-four
22
kV alternative that was put together by NYSEG.
23
24
A.L.J. STEIN:
is this in the record?
25
That's a map,
And -- and where
Is this in --
MR. GREENBERG:
It's in the
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first --.
A.L.J. STEIN:
-- the first
MR. METCALFE:
It -- it --
A.L.J. STEIN:
First deficiency
MR. METCALFE:
-- it is in the
first deficiency letter, the response -- the first
10
deficient?
letter?
response to the deficiency letter.
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A.L.J. STEIN:
12
MR. GREENBERG:
Thank you.
And -- and Judge,
13
it was the map that I put up yesterday, but
14
unfortunately it's very hard, I think, to be able
15
to see it in this room, posted up on the board like
16
that.
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A.L.J. STEIN:
18
MR. GREENBERG:
19
BY MR. GREENBERG:
20
Go ahead.
Thank you, Judge.
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Panel, do you have that in front
22
A.
(Werth)
23
Q.
Was your panel involved in
21
of you?
Yes.
24
connection with the production of figure three dash
25
four?
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A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
Now, if I understand
correctly, you would have been given the two tap
points, the one to the right-hand side of the map
here, Nobletown Road, and the other tap went on the
left-hand side of the map, near Soller Heights, and
would have been asked to basically set up a route
that connected those tap points.
Is that correct?
10
A.
Correct.
11
Q.
So, basically, it's not so much
12
putting together point A to B, but in this case
13
putting together the initial starting point near 9H
14
and then running a -- a thirty-four point five kV
15
line out to Nobletown Road, as well as one that
16
would be going down to Soller Heights; correct?
17
A.
Correct.
18
Q.
Now, could you just give a -- a
19
general description of how you went about doing
20
that?
21
desk-topping, is that right?
22
If I understand, it was done as
A.
Yes.
It was done through a
23
desktop review of environmental and land use
24
constraints in the area.
25
Q.
And -- and can you describe

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exactly what a desktop review consists of?
A.
It's reviewing publicly available
data and databases that can be loaded in to a
G.I.S., or Geographic Information System, to
provide mapping of all the constraints.
Q.
And there were no site visits in
connection with the planning of NYSEG's thirty-four
point five kV alternative; were there?
10
A.
Not specifically for this.
There
11
was site visits in the area that also coincide with
12
the proposed one fifteen kV route.
13
Q.
Okay.
Do -- do you have any
14
estimate as to how many hours were spent, in
15
connection with the planning and development of
16
the -- the route for the thirty-four point five kV
17
alternative that is shown in figure three dash
18
four?
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A.
I don't, off the top of my head.
20
Q.
Are -- are -- are you able to
21
give a rough estimate at all?
22
A.
Not off the top of my head.
23
Q.
Were you personally involved
24
in -- in -- in putting together the route for
25
NYSEG's thirty-four point five kV alternative?
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A.
Yes.
Q.
Now, some of the route that's
shown in thirty -- in figure three dash four runs
along existing roadways.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
Is that correct?
For -- for instance, if we
look towards the -- the east, there is an area that
it goes along Route 203, near where it's shown as
10
Chase Road and -- and Big Woods Road.
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12
MS. HOWLAND:
Dave, could we
possibly get a larger map?
13
(Off-the-record discussion)
14
A.
15
question?
16
BY MR. GREENBERG:
17
Q.
Could you please repeat the
(Cont'g.)
Sure.
If I could just bring your
18
attention to the route -- it's -- on the east --
19
it's east of the Taconic State Parkway.
20
follow the route along, it then meets up with Route
21
203, near where it shows as Chase Road and Big
22
Woods Road.
Do you see that?
23
A.
(Werth)
24
Q.
Okay.
25
And if you
Yes.
Now, the route that you
chose runs along Route 203 at that point; correct?
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A.
For a short distance, yes.
Q.
Right.
And -- and are you
considering this to be a -- a transmission line, a
sub-transmission line, a distribution line, or
something else?
A.
I believe it is a transmission
Q.
Okay.
10
A.
Or sub-transmission line.
11
Q.
Or both?
line.
Thirty-four point five
12
can be considered either a sub-transmission or a
13
transmission line; correct?
14
15
16
A.
That would be a question for the
engineers, I believe.
Q.
Okay.
But in any case, the
17
thirty-four point five kV line, that you're running
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can go along roadways; right?
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A.
In certain areas, yes.
20
Q.
Okay.
Well, what would be the
21
constraints of being able to run along a roadway in
22
one area, as compared to not being able to run
23
along a roadway in another area?
24
25
A.
Having the available distance for
the right-of-way.
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Q.
Okay.
And -- and what would that
available distance for the right-of-way be?
A.
One hundred feet.
Q.
Well, that's NYSEG's
determination as to what the right-of-way should
be; correct?
A.
be a hundred foot right-of-way.
10
We were instructed that it would

I don't know what
goes into that.
11
Q.
But you don't really require a
12
hundred foot right-of-way for a thirty-four point
13
five kV line; do you?
14
A.
That's not my area of expertise.
15
Q.
Okay.
In fact, what you can do
16
is you can trim some of the trees along the roadway
17
to create enough space for that line.
18
right?
Isn't that
19
A.
Again, that's not my area.
20
Q.
Okay.
So, getting back to the
21
area of the route, where it runs along 203 and
22
picks up that short area near Chase Road and Big
23
Woods Road, now arguably, other than based on the
24
constraint that you just talked about, you could
25
run that line, for instance, all the way on 203, to
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Page 354
where it meets 22, and then run it all the way on
Route 22, down to Nobletown Road, is that right?
A.
No.
Q.
And why not?
A.
There's not enough room for a
hundred-foot-wide right-of-way.
Q.
Okay.
So, the only reason that
you're saying you can't take that route along 203
10
and then 22 is because you would be requiring a
11
hundred-foot right-of-way?
12
A.
I don't know that that is the
13
only reason that we couldn't, but that is the
14
primary reason that it was not an alternative.
15
16
17
18
19
Q.
Based on the instructions that
A.
Based on the need for a
you received?
hundred-foot right-of-way.
Q.
And -- and who -- who directed
20
you that you required a hundred-foot right-of-way,
21
in connection with the creation of an alternative
22
thirty-four point five kV, for this project?
23
24
25
A.
That would have come from the
NYSEG engineering.
Q.
Okay.
Do you know anyone in

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particular?
recall anyone in particular or is that written
correspondence?
Did you speak with anyone?
A.
I don't believe it was written
correspondence.
NYSEG project manager at the time.
Do you
I believe it came through the
Q.
And -- and with that have been
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
And is Mr. Bender still the
12
project manager?
13
A.
No.
14
Q.
Who -- who took Mr. Bender's
16
A.
Ayo.
17
Q.
Mr. Ayo or Ms. Ayo?
18
A.
Mr. Ayo.
19
Q.
Mr. Ayo?
15
Mr. Bender?
place?
20
21
MR. METCALFE:
The name's Ayo
Jemiri.
22
MR. GREENBERG:
23
MR. METCALFE:
Thank you.
I -- I can point
24
out, too, that the engineering panel, the Mike
25
Barteck (phonetic spelling) Panel, scheduled for
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Page 356
next week, is very familiar with the company's
standards for right-of-way widths, so I'm happy to
steer you in that direction for better information
than Mr. Werth is able to give you.
6
7
MR. GREENBERG:
much, Mr. Metcalfe.
Thank you, very
I appreciate that.
A.L.J. STEIN:
10
11
A.L.J. STEIN:
BY MR. GREENBERG:
12
Q.
Just one moment.
Please proceed.
(Cont'g.)
Now, wouldn't it be true that the
13
route, if it were able to go along existing
14
roadways, would cause less environmental impact?
15
16
A.
(Werth)
It would depend on -- on
Q.
Well, would it depend on the
the route.
17
18
route or would it depend on something on in
19
particular, in connection with the road at that one
20
area?
21
22
23
A.
It would depend on the route and
what -- what resources are crossed.

Q.
Well, wouldn't that roadway
24
already be crossing those resources?
25
concerned again with the hundred-foot right-of-way?
Or are you
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A.
It would be a hundred-foot
right-of-way and it would need to be outside of the
road.
Q.
Okay.
And when you say
hundred-foot right-of-way, are you looking at a
fifty feet on one side of the road and fifty feet
on the other side of the road, or something else?
A.
No.
It would need to be a
10
hundred foot, consecutive, fifty feet either side
11
of the center line.
12
Q.
So, the hundred-foot right-of-way
13
is taken from -- fifty feet from the center line of
14
the roadway?
15
16
17
A.
No.
From the center line of the
transmission line.
Q.
All right.
So, if it ran along,
18
say, the west side of the roadway, it would have to
19
be fifty feet further to the west and then an
20
additional fifty feet to the east?
21
A.
No.
22
Q.
I'm confused.
23
A.
It would be fifty feet either
24
25
side of the center line of the transmission line.

Q.
Okay.
And -- and part of that

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would be in the roadway, most probably, and part of
it would be not in the roadway.
correct?
A.
Isn't that
I -- I don't know NYSEG's
standards, if they allow sharing of road
right-of-way or not.
8
9
Q.
Now, looking again, at figure
three dash four, now over more towards the western
10
area, where the thirty-four point five kV line
11
connects into what would be the new one fifteen
12
substation, if you go eastward from there, your
13
alternative route makes a -- a -- a north -- a
14
northern turn and appears to basically go along the
15
same route that was provided with the alternatives
16
for the one fifteen kV line.
Is that right?
17
A.
That's correct.
18
Q.
Now, did you consider continuing
19
east to hook into anything on County Route 22 at
20
that point?
21
A.
No.
We determined that County
22
Road -- or County Route 22 does not have adequate
23
space for a hundred-foot right-of-way.
24
25
Q.
determination?
And -- and how did you make that

Through -- what on your desktop
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in -- allowed you to make that determination?
A.
Well, in this area, we actually
had site visits, so we had more than just desktop.
But primarily it is the homes located along County
Route 22 do not allow for the hundred-foot
right-of-way.
8
9
10
Q.
Okay.
your attention to the exhibit that was just handed

up, which is Protect Ghent's P.G. Nine.
11
MR. GREENBERG:
12
Honor.
13
that as.
16
17
I'm sorry, your
I had forgot what number you had marked
14
15
And if I could just direct
A.L.J. STEIN:
BY MR. GREENBERG:
Forty-six.
Q.
(Cont'g.)
Exhibit Number Forty-six, Mr.
Werth, you prepared this response?
18
A.
(Werth)
19
Q.
Okay.
Yes.
If I understand correctly,
20
this was served on Mr. Hurst, actually, during the
21
hearing yesterday.
Is that correct?
22
23
A.
I'm not sure when it was served.
24
Q.
Well, what -- when did you --
25
when did you create this response?
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A.
I don't believe --.
MR. METCALFE:
object because the -- the witness doesn't know --
MR. GREENBERG:
MR. METCALFE:
I -- I'm going to
Okay.
-- the process
that occurred after he had signed off on the --
MR. GREENBERG:
MR. METCALFE:
10
MR. GREENBERG:
11
MR. METCALFE:
12
MR. GREENBERG:
13
withdraw the question.
14
BY MR. GREENBERG:
15
Q.
I'll ask him --- I.R. --.

-- another way.
Thank you.
I'll -- I'll
Thank you, sir.
(Cont'g.)
Do you know when you provided the
16
information in connection with this response,
17
Exhibit Number Forty-six?
18
19
20
A.
(Werth)
Q.
Okay.
I believe it was last
week.
Now, looking at response
21
number one, this states as a -- that no analysis or
22
studies have been completed for the potential use
23
of County Route 22 as an alternative, because it
24
was determined -- and I'm paraphrasing that, County
25
Route 22 has many residences that are less than a
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hundred feet off of County Route 22, which would
require that a route along this route would have to
take homes or be required to cross the road
multiple times, if there are not residence on both
sides.
7
8
Is that information that you

provided, Mr. Werth?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Okay.
11
How many residences are we
talking about?
12
A.
I don't know off the top of my
14
Q.
Is it more than one or two?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Is it more than ten?
17
A.
I -- I don't know.
18
Q.
And when you say take homes, are
13
head.
19
you talking about actually having to take homes by
20
eminent domain or destroy them to allow the line to
21
go through?
22
23
A.
The houses would have to be
removed to allow for the hundred-foot right-of-way.
24
Q.
25
running along County Route 22?
Are there any existing lines
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Page 362
A.
I believe there are.
Q.
And what type of lines currently
run along County Route 22?
5
6
A.
they would be distribution lines.
7
8
I'm not sure, but I believe that
Q.
Okay.
And -- and those are
thirty-four point five distribution lines?
A.
I do not know that.
10
Q.
Okay.
Now, I -- I guess it's --
11
again, is -- is it your panel's place to be able to
12
discuss whether a new thirty-four point five
13
kilovolt line could travel along the existing line
14
that's on Route 20 -- on County Route 22?
15
16
MR. METCALFE:
the Mike Barteck Panel.
17
18
I'd aim that at
MR. GREENBERG:
BY MR. GREENBERG:
19
Q.
Thank you, sir.
(Cont'g.)
Okay.
Now, you also stated in
20
Exhibit Forty-six that the road would have to --
21
the line would have to cross the road multiple
22
times.
23
Now, did you consider, in
24
planning NYSEG's thirty-four point five kV
25
alternative, whether any portions of the line could
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2

be undergrounded?
A.
(Werth)
Q.
When you were planning on the
No.
four alternatives for the one fifteen kV line, did
you consider whether any portions of that line
could be undergrounded?
8
9
A.
No.
That was outside of the --
our scope of work.
10
Q.
And -- and when you say outside
11
your scope of work, you're saying it was outside
12
your scope of direction from your principal.
13
that correct?
14
15
16
A.
Yes.
Is
We were hired to route an
overhead transmission line.

Q.
And it was made clear to you
17
that -- from the very start that none of it would
18
be undergrounded.
19
A.
Is that correct?
Like I said, we were hired to
20
route an overhead transmission line, not an
21
underground transmission line.
22
Q.
23
underground transmission line?
24
A.
25
Well, what about a partially
No.
We were directed to site a
overhead transmission line.
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Q.
3
4
Thank you very much.

MR. GREENBERG:
I have no further
questions, Judge.
A.L.J. STEIN:
Thank you.
For the Department of Environmental Conservation?
MS. WILKINSON:
Your Honor, I'm
going to be handing out interrogatory responses.
And I'm going to hand them out.
We had sixteen
10
questions, sixteen response -- sets of responses.
11
I'm going to hand them in packet of all sixteen
12
responses, if that's okay, for my exhibit.
13
going to ask questions on some of the individual
14
responses.
15
16
But I'm
Or do you want to mark them

individually?
17
A.L.J. STEIN:
18
take them as a packet, if they -- do they have --
19
are -- have you numbered the pages?
20
MS. WILKINSON:
I'm willing to
We've numbered --
21
the responses are numbered and most of the
22
responses are one page, front and back.
23
them are stapled.
24
I've stapled, but I also have a summary table of
25
each response and the number of pages.
Some of
Anyone that's multiple pages,
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2
3
A.L.J. STEIN:
I'm just
concerned that --.
4
5
Okay.
MS. WILKINSON:
I can do it
separately.
A.L.J. STEIN:
I'm just concerned
that if parties want to refer to this in the
record --
MS. WILKINSON:
10
11
A.L.J. STEIN:
MS. WILKINSON:
That's fine.
can do -- we can do it separately.
14
15
-- there would be
no way to say Exhibit Forty-six, page twelve.
12
13
Okay.
I have -- I mean, I'm still going

to hand them out as packets, just because --
16
A.L.J. STEIN:
17
MS. WILKINSON:
That's fine.
-- that's how
18
they were.
And because some of the responses have
19
voluminous attachments, I don't have copies of the
20
attachments.
21
but not the attachment, as directed.
22
complete copies for you and the court reporter.
I did copy the question and response,
23
A.L.J. STEIN:
24
MS. WILKINSON:
25
So, I have
Thank you.
Do you want -- so
I'll go through each one of them, individually,
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1
2

then?
I can do that.
A.L.J. STEIN:
Yeah.
But we'll
identify them collectively as Exhibit Number
Forty-six -- Forty-Seven.
Sorry.
MS. WILKINSON:
MR. METCALFE:
9
10
Okay.
Lisa, does this
include -- you handed out four or five I.R.s

yesterday.
11
It's the whole batch?
12
MS. WILKINSON:
13
It's the whole
batch.
14
MR. METCALFE:
15
16
MR. BLOW:
17
inquire -- Ms. Wilkinson said that she is not
18
providing copies of the attachments, but the
19
attachments are -- have they been pre-filed?
Your Honor, may I
20
MS. WILKINSON:
21
MR. BLOW:
22
Yes, they have.
So, the attachments
are a part of the exhibit --
23
MS. WILKINSON:
24
MR. BLOW:
25
Great.
Correct.
-- it's just they're
not being handed out in hard copy?
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MS. WILKINSON:
Correct.
I have a copy -- a hard copy for the judge and I
can supply a copy to the court reporter if you want
me to do that.
A.L.J. STEIN:
MS. WILKINSON:
MR. BLOW:
MS. WILKINSON:
10
You don't need to.

Okay.
Okay.
So, what I just
handed out --
11
MR. BLOW:
Thanks.
12
MS. WILKINSON:
-- were
13
interrogatory responses to D.E.C. One through
14
Sixteen.
15
A.L.J. STEIN:
So this will be
16
Exhibit Number Forty-seven for identification.
17
it consists of D.E.C. interrogatories and
18
responses, numbers One through Sixteen.
And
19
Is that correct, Ms. Wilkinson?
20
MS. WILKINSON:
21
A.L.J. STEIN:
22
23
That's correct.
Thank you.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
24
Q.
Good morning.
25
A.
(Howland)
Good morning.
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Howland/Gilstrap/Werth - Cross - Wilkinson
Q.
And I'll start by assuming that
there are no changes to the interrogatory responses
and the responses, as the authors are indicated,
are the same responses that you would give today?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
Okay.
I'm going to start by
asking you about best management practices.
In
D.E.C. One, we -- D.E.C. inquired whether NYSEG
10
would utilize the best management practices that
11
had been developed in the case of the Rochester
12
Reliability Project, whether those practices would
13
also be utilized for the Columbia County
14
Transmission Project?
15
A.
Yes, they would.
16
Q.
And today, you are not aware of
17
any changes to those practices that NYSEG has
18
implemented in the case of Rochester?
19
20
A.
No.
There's no changes to that
Q.
And there's no changes to the
document.
21
22
practices that you've actually implemented to the
23
project?
24
may not have changed, but on the ground, have you
25
made any changes?
In other words, they may -- the document
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2
3
A.
Are you referring to this project
or the Rochester project?
Q.
Well, I'm referring to the
Rochester project.
have you made changes to the best management
practices, in the field, in implementation?
8
9
In other words, are there --
MR. METCALFE:
That's
outside the scope of the --
10
MS. WILKINSON:
11
MR. METCALFE:
12
MS. WILKINSON:
13
MR. METCALFE:
14
Objection.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
15
Q.
Let me --- company's --- rephrase it.

-- direct case.
(Cont'g.)
Have you made changes to the best
16
management practices in that project that you
17
believe would be appropriate for this project, that
18
would cause you to update the document for this
19
project?
20
21
22
A.
(Howland)
There have been no
changes to the document.

Q.
And there's no -- there's --
23
you're not foreseeing any updates to the -- to the
24
document, as applied to this project?
25
A.
No, I do not.
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Q.
So, as far as -- so as far as we
know today, that document would govern this
project's best management practices, as applied to
terrestrial and wildlife resources?
A.
The document would be used unless
there's a specific certificate condition that
overrode that.
Q.
Okay.
And that include -- so
10
that would apply to every single topic covered in
11
that document?
12
A.
Correct.
The -- our best
13
management practices are typical procedures to be
14
followed for the development of the environmental
15
management and construction plan.
16
there's specific certificate conditions, they would
17
be followed first.
18
Q.
Okay.
However, if
So, turning to streams, in
19
section four point nine of the application, water
20
resources, which one of you prepared that
21
document -- or that section of Exhibit Four, in the
22
application?
23
A.
I have written that text.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
And that was based on a
desktop analysis?
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A.
Yes.
That was based on
information we were able to find through D.E.C. and
other recourses.
Q.
you review that section?
A.
8
Q.
Yes.
Yes.
Ms. Gilstrap, in preparing that
section, did you conduct any site visits?
11
12
(Werth)
(Howland)
9
10
Ms. Howland and Mr. Werth, did
A.
(Ms. Gilstrap)
No, I did not
conduct -- conduct any site visits.
13
Q.
And as far as D.E.C. Ten is
14
concerned, I believe the response was prepared by
15
Mr. Werth and Ms. Howland.
16
Ms. Gilstrap, did you review that
17
response at all?
18
A.
I was on maternity leave.
19
Q.
Okay.
Now, did any of the
20
witnesses consult with D.E.C. in preparing table
21
four point one five, which is the -- well, the
22
table in the application and also the -- as updated
23
in D.E.C. Ten, I believe.
24
table, did any of the witnesses consult with D.E.C.
25
staff?
Prior to preparing that
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A.
we did not consult with staff.
Q.
to the response to D.E.C. Ten?
A.
(Werth)
Q.
No?
For the table in the application,
And the table that was attached
No.
Did anyone consult with
D.E.C., regarding the use of the National
Hydrologic Database?
10
A.
11
No.
(Howland)
No.
12
Q.
And did anyone ask D.E.C. whether
13
that information was accurate?
14
A.
(Werth)
15
Q.
Ms. Gilstrap, so you did not go
No.
16
on a site visit then, a few weeks ago, to see the
17
stream crossings?
18
A.
(Ms. Gilstrap)
19
Q.
But Mr. Werth was telling me you
20
No.
had a site visit?
21
A.
(Werth)
22
Q.
And D.E.C. had listed four
Yes.
23
crossing locations that were of particular
24
interest, I believe, right?
25
crossing at Widows Creek?
Widows -- right, the

There is a crossing at
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1
2

Widows Creek; correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Now, you didn't actually see that
crossing on the site visit, but that was one of the
ones listed.
Kline Kill crossing.
And I believe D.E.C. also listed the
A.
Correct.
Q.
Which we did see?
10
A.
Correct.
11
Q.
And D.E.C. also listed a crossing
12
at Fitting Creek?
13
A.
Correct.
14
Q.
Which we didn't see the -- we saw
15
the creek and a representative location of the
16
crossing, but we didn't see the actual crossing
17
point?
18
A.
Correct.
19
Q.
Have you or Ms. Howland seen --
20
have you seen the crossing point at Fitting Creek,
21
where the -- where the project is proposed to
22
cross?
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
Have you visited that location?
25
A.
No.
Just on the site visit with

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1
2

you guys.
Q.
Okay.
And then the fourth, I
believe, was a crossing at the tributary to North
Creek, which I think was near the Haybed (phonetic
spelling) property, but we did make it on the site
visit.
Is that correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
And --.
10
A.
(Howland)
11
We have not gone on
private property for the routing.
12
Q.
Okay.
So, we did see the
13
crossing at Kline Kill, which is classified as a
14
C(T.S.) stream, indicating it supports trout
15
spawning.
16
were you able to assess the characteristics of the
17
stream?
You know, based on your site visit then,
18
A.L.J. STEIN:
19
me just interject for one second.
20
T.S.?
Let me just -- let
21
22
MS. WILKINSON:
It's -- I believe
it's C parenthesis T.S.
23
A.L.J. STEIN:
24
MS. WILKINSON:
25
Is that C dash
that.
Okay.
I will provide
I apologize --
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Page 375
A.L.J. STEIN:
MS. WILKINSON:
provide that.
Okay.
-- but I will
I think it's parenthesis T.S.
A.L.J. STEIN:
Okay.
If you
could just make it clear as you go, so the reporter
gets a clear --
MS. WILKINSON:
It's C -- it's C parenthesis T.S.
10
A.L.J. STEIN:
11
MS. WILKINSON:
12
spawning.
13
BY MS. WILKINSON:
14
Q.
Sure.
Thanks.
Indicating trout
(Cont'g.)
And based on the site visit, were
15
you able to assess in -- whether it would be
16
possible to span that stream, rather than place
17
structures in the stream?
18
A.
(Werth)
Preliminary engineering
19
does not indicate any structures would be placed
20
within that stream.
21
22
25
Or within a hundred feet of the
A.
I believe that's the case, but I
stream?
23
24
Q.
need to check.
(Howland)
The short answer is we -- we will not
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Page 376
place structures in the stream.
we can go to span it, we're not sure.
trying to see on that.
Q.
Just how far back

And Dusty's
I mean, I believe if you look at
page four sixty-eight and four sixty-nine of the
application, I think that's where you discuss --.
8
9
A.
(Howland)
Four six eight and
four six nine.
10
(Werth)
And the response to
11
D.P.S. Six, we did not identify a structure within
12
a hundred feet of that stream.
13
Q.
Okay.
So, as you know right now,
14
there would be -- there would be no need to place
15
structures in or within a hundred feet of that
16
stream?
17
A.
Correct.
18
Q.
Now, as far the tributary to
19
North Creek is concerned, which was not viewed, are
20
you aware of whether that -- that particular stream
21
supports trout?
22
A.
According to the classification
23
from the D.E.C. data set that we received, it does
24
not.
25
Q.
But did you check with D.E.C. to

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1
2

see whether, in fact, that stream supports trout?
A.
No, we did not.
Q.
If -- if we look at the map and
the -- the two figures, figure -- figures four
point four and four point five, if -- well, four
point five, I believe --.
8
9
A.
Is that four dash four and four
Q.
I -- I -- I apologize.
dash --?
10
Four dash
11
four and four dash five, it's in Exhibit Four of
12
the application.
13
crossing, because you -- your application doesn't
14
overlay the streams and the wetlands, but looking
15
at the location of the North Creek crossing, and
16
if -- and I can point -- I can point that out to
17
you on -- I believe D.E.C., when we sent out our
18
requests for site visits, we included a map.
19
actually drew it on figure four point five.
20
don't know if that would help you.
21
from figure four point five on the application, the
22
crossing at North Creek.
And if you look at the -- the
If you can tell
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
So, you see that general
25
We
location?
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Page 378
A.
Yes.
Q.
Turning to figure four point
four, can you pinpoint relatively the same location
on that figure where the crossing would occur?
the vicinity?
Or
A.
Yes.
Q.
So, it's -- the crossing occurs
9
10
in or near what's been marked as S.T. Eight or

Wetland Number Eight on the map?
11
12
13
A.
S.T. Eight.
I believe it would be south of
Is that correct?
Q.
Slightly south, but the project
14
would cross S.T. Eight and then, not much further
15
than that, would cross the North Creek.
16
A.L.J. STEIN:
I'm not sure I'm
17
seeing what you're seeing -- looking, but I'm not
18
sure I'm looking at the right -- you're looking at
19
figure four point four?
20
MS. WILKINSON:
21
four point four and S.T. Eight is -- it runs from
22
north to south, on the top of the page, to maybe
23
two-thirds down --
24
A.L.J. STEIN:
25
MS. WILKINSON:
Right.
Figure
Right.
-- heading east.
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1
2

And I'm looking where the project is crossing.
3
4
A.L.J. STEIN:
Oh, I see.
sort of the eastern branch of S.T. Eight?
MS. WILKINSON:
A.L.J. STEIN:
BY MS. WILKINSON:
8
9
10
11
12
13
So,
Q.
Right.
I see.
Thank you.
(Cont'g.)
So, the crossing and the wetland
area are -- are relatively in close proximity,

would you say?
A.
(Werth)
I believe S.T. Eight
corresponds with Kline Kill, not North Creek.

Q.
Okay.
Okay.
I apologize.
But
14
the -- the -- the wetland and the -- and the stream
15
crossing are in fair -- are fairly close
16
proximity -- I apologize -- would you say?
17
A.
It appears the crossing on North
18
Creek is approximately twenty-five hundred feet
19
south of the south end of S.T. eight.
20
Q.
And the crossing of Kline Kill?
21
A.
The cross -- the crossing of
22
23
Kline Kill crosses through S.T. eight there.

Q.
Correct.
So that crossing is a
24
crossing of both the stream -- this class C(T.S.)
25
stream and a class two wetland?
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Page 380
A.
classification of S.T. eight.
Q.
That's -- if that's a class --
Okay.
I believe it is.
Now, turning to the application, in terms of
construction related in-stream work, do you
anticipate installing structures or need to install
structures within any of the four stream locations
that D.E.C. identified on the site visit?
Do you
10
anticipate needing to install structures within the
11
stream during construction?
12
13
A.
Are you talking about
utility poles or temporary stream poles?
14
15
(Howland)
Q.
No -- no.
I'm talking about
temporary crossings, vehicular --.
16
A.L.J. STEIN:
17
excuse me.
18
right on the microphone.
You really -- you really need to be
19
MS. HOWLAND:
20
A.L.J. STEIN:
21
on.
24
25
Okay.
I'm sorry.
And make sure it's
Thanks.
22
23
Excuse me --
MS. HOWLAND:
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q.
Okay.
(Cont'g.)
Vehicular access, you know,
anything that would be necessary for construction.
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Page 381
A.
(Howland)
The one we looked at
near the conservation area, we believe we don't
have to cross with equipment.
come in from both sides.
looked at during the preparation of environmental
management and construction plan.
Q.
We could probably
The other streams will be
So on -- so at this point, you
can't say for sure that there would not be
10
structures placed within the stream during
11
construction?
12
13
A.
There may be temporary stream
Q.
And on pages four sixty-eight and
crossings.
14
15
four sixty-nine of the application, it mentions the
16
utilization of swamp mats and other minimally
17
evasive bridge materials.
18
A.
We would refer to the D.E.C.'s
19
erosion -- their standard specifications for stream
20
crossings.
21
there's stream crossings techniques and we would
22
refer to them.
The -- they -- in D.E.C.'s blue book,
23
But any stream crossing method
24
would be in environmental management and
25
construction plan, which would go to the D.E.C. for
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Page 382
approval before it's finalized.
Q.
Correct.
And -- and the
application noted that swamp mats may be utilized.
And I believe that was also referenced in D.E.C.
ten -- in the response to D.E.C. Ten.
7
8
A.L.J. STEIN:
MS. WILKINSON:
A.L.J. STEIN:
MS. WILKINSON:
17
Thank you.
That's what I'm
going to ask.
15
16
Okay.
What's a swamp mat?
13
14
Swamp -- yeah,
S-W-A-M-P M-A-T.
11
12
Are
you saying swamp mats?
9
10
Excuse me.
A.L.J. STEIN:
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q.
Okay.
(Cont'g.)
So, we -- we can start with -- I
18
guess, we can start with swamp mats, but the
19
application mentions the use of swamp mats and
20
other minimally invasive bridge materials.
21
describe what a swamp mat is?
22
A.
(Werth)
Can you
It's typically a timber
23
mat used to limit soil compaction and erosion and
24
that type of stuff in wetland areas.
25
Q.
Okay.
And -- and so the -- the

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reference in the application on, I believe, page
four sixty-eight and four sixty-nine to the use of
swamp mats and minimally invasive bridge materials,
would a swamp mat be a minimally evasive bridge
material?
as?
Is that what you're characterizing it
A.
I believe so.
Q.
Is it something that would be
10
installed in the stream or would it be installed
11
over the stream?
12
A.
(Howland)
It would be --
13
typically, it's either installed over the stream.
14
They might put like a culvert in a bridge-type
15
thing.
16
What the stream, how wide it is, what are the
17
characteristics of the stream.
But it's all going to be site specific.
18
So, those are -- you know, we
19
will refer to the D.E.C.'s blue book for stream
20
crossing techniques for those streams that we have
21
identified, that -- that we will be out in.
22
we can get out in the field, on to these
23
properties, to see what the characteristics of the
24
stream are, then we can propose a stream crossing
25
technique, if needed.
When
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First, we'll seek to come in from
both sides to avoid stream crossings.
cannot do that, we'll have to propose a stream
crossing technique.
6
7
Q.
But if we
And Ms. Howland, you're aware of
the D.E.C. -- what's known as construction windows?
A.
Yes, we are.
Q.
And -- and the purpose of those
10
Yes.
is to ensure that the fisheries are protected?
11
A.
Correct.
12
Q.
Particularly cold water fisheries
13
that support trout.
14
A.
We're aware of the limitations.
15
Q.
Right.
And in response to the
16
question from D.E.C., whether you would be willing
17
to adhere to those construction windows, I believe
18
you said on the assumption -- and this is D.E.C.
19
Ten, question five response.
20
that installing matted crossings is not in-stream
21
construction, you would be agreeable to, you know,
22
following construction windows for streams that
23
support trout and trout spawning.
24
A.
Correct.
25
Q.
But --
On the assumption
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Page 385
A.
It --.
Q.
-- you can see where installing
a -- a mat in the stream would -- would actually --
you know, a -- a structure in the stream could
inhibit the movement of trout in a stream, or could
hinder trout during those sensitive time periods?
8
9
A.
And we wouldn't install mats in
those type of streams.
10
Q.
Okay.
So, for trout and trout
11
streams, we wouldn't be looking at the matted
12
crossings?
13
A.
No.
We would work with the
14
D.E.C. on the appropriate method for crossing those
15
streams.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
A.
(Ms. Gilstrap)
I would like to
18
add that the use of a swamp mat in a stream would
19
probably, typically, be used if the stream was dry
20
during that time of year.
21
would be no water flowing, but we would still want
22
to protect the -- the bed and bank of the stream,
23
then you could utilize a swamp mat.
24
25
Q.
Okay.
So, there's -- there
But we wouldn't be doing
that during the sensitive time periods for trout?
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A.
Correct.
Q.
Okay.
Turning to wetlands,
because we're going to do the confidential
questions later, so skipping to wetlands, in the
application, table four point ten, and I believe
that's on page four forty-eight, indicates that one
point eight acres of D.E.C. regulated wetlands
would be impacted -- would be within the project
10
corridor and this would be cleared for -- there
11
would be some clearing in that -- in those wetlands
12
for construction.
Is that correct?
13
A.
(Werth)
14
Q.
And those -- those wetlands are
That's correct.
15
all forested wetlands, so the -- the clearing would
16
permanently convert them from a forested wetland to
17
a different type of wetland.
18
A.
Is that correct?
(Ms. Gilstrap)
I would like to
19
add that in this document, the -- the database that
20
we looked at, the D.E.C. database that we pulled
21
these wetlands from, they did not assign cover
22
types.
23
24
25
A.L.J. STEIN:
Please -- please
use the microphone.

A.
(Cont'g.)
Did not assign cover

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types to these wetlands.
based on N.W.I., National Wetland Inventory
wetlands.
And so, we assigned them
So, the -- the cover type would
have to be verified in the field or by D.E.C.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
8
9
10
Q.
Okay.
But assuming that it is
forest -- it is a forested wetland, that would be a

permanent conversion to a different wetland type?
11
A.
12
13
(Cont'g.)
(Werth)
(Howland)
Correct.
Yes.
Along just the
right-of-way corridor.
14
Q.
And I think the application also
15
indicates that there is one point one acres of
16
adjacent area within the project corridor.
17
that -- that would be the most similarly impacted.
18
A.
(Ms. Gilstrap)
So
That -- the
19
adjacent area in the corridor, yes, would be
20
impacted.
21
Q.
Okay.
And so at this point,
22
other than the wetlands and the existing
23
right-of-way, there's been no field delineations or
24
assessment of the wetlands in the project; right?
25
A.
(Howland)
There was a field

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delineation done where we had access along our
existing corridor.
Q.
Right.
A.
And that was provided as a
supplement.
new right-of-way section to field delineate the
wetlands.
Beyond that, we have not gone on the
Q.
So, as part of this project, you
10
would be doing that then?
11
the wetlands?
12
A.
Correct.
You would be delineating
The -- for the new
13
right-of-way, we would go out and field delineate
14
the wetlands.
15
Q.
And as part of the delineation,
16
you would be looking into the wetland functions,
17
that would be impacted by the project.
18
correct?
Is that
19
A.
That is correct.
20
Q.
You would agree the functions
21
are, you know, what we consider like physical,
22
chemical, and biological processes occurring in and
23
making up the ecosystem of the wetlands, roughly?
24
25
A.
We would evaluate the functions.
But I'm not sure if I understood --
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Q.
If you understood all of that.
A.
-- all of what you said.
Q.
Well, you would understand -- you
know, what is the -- in other words, do the
wetlands provide habitat, what is the -- the water
flow, how are they connected to other water
systems.
But at this point, we can't say
10
for sure what those wetland functions are of the
11
wetlands that would be impacted.
Is that true?
12
A.
That's correct.
13
Q.
So, in -- in forested wetland
14
areas, you're going to evaluate the forest habitat
15
and dependent uses and that would be considered
16
part of, you know, the impact that you're going to
17
note in the E.M. and C.P.
18
19
A.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
We'll evaluate
the functions and values of the wetlands.
20
Q.
And you would evaluate potential
21
forest fragmentation that might occur from
22
construction of a right-of-way through a forested
23
wetland.
24
25
Is that correct?
A.
Yes, we'll evaluate.
It'll be a
conversion of a forested wetland to a shrub-type
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1
2

wetland.
Q.
And you would evaluate any impact
on fisheries, you know, particularly where the
wetland crossings are in the vicinity of cold water
streams that might be impacted by the removal of
vegetation?
I mean, it --.
8
9
10
A.
I guess you could put in a
specific request of the list of what you would like

evaluated in a wetland -- in the wetland --
11
Q.
Well, we're -- we're --
12
A.
-- delineation.
13
Q.
-- we're -- I mean, for example
14
in the Kline Kill area, we're talking about
15
crossing of a C(T.S.) stream in a -- you know, in
16
an area that's a forested wetland, so we want to be
17
sure and have a commitment that there will be an
18
evaluation of that stream crossing and that -- and
19
that wetland crossing, and the habitat in and
20
around that area.
21
A.
Before we go out to do any field
22
work, I suggest -- we will have the biologist
23
coordinate with your staff to make sure we get
24
everything --
25
Q.
Okay.
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Page 391
A.
-- that you would like.
Q.
Okay.
And we appreciate that.
We -- that's what we're here for the record,
building the record and we appreciate that.
As far as access roads in, you
know, sensitive environmental areas, do you
contemplate constructing access roads?
possible you will construct an access road in a
Is it
10
wetland area, or over a stream?
11
A.
12
roads if needed.
13
span, there would be no -- and we could come in
14
from both directions, there would be no need to put
15
a temporary access road.
16
cross that wetland, we would put in a temporary
17
access road across it.
18
Q.
There may be temporary access

If there is a wetland we could
However, if we do need to
Now, I know you mentioned and I
19
think it was in response to D.P.S. Six, that you
20
talked about the possibility of grading certain
21
areas so you could move equipment through them and
22
leaving it as an unimproved access road.
23
wetland crossings be different?
24
roads and wetlands, would they be different than
25
grading an area and making it as an unimproved
Would
You know, access
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1
2
3

access road?
A.
Yes.
We -- we would not -- all
of the wetlands from our preliminary engineering
would all be temporary access.
permanent access roads for any of the D.E.C.
regulated wetlands.
8
9
(Werth)
We're not proposing
Right.
And it's called
out in section four point five point two point
10
three, is Exhibit Four, access roads would be
11
temporary in wetlands.
12
Q.
Okay.
And they would be -- and
13
then the area would be restored -- would be
14
completely restored to --
15
A.
Yeah.
16
Q.
-- to the wetland area --
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
-- after this?
19
A.
-- will be restored --
They --
20
(Howland)
21
(Werth)
That's correct.
-- to preconstruction --
22
Q.
It wouldn't be left --
23
A.
-- condition.
24
Q.
-- as a graded -- as a graded
25
area or whatever?
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A.
No.
Q.
No?
4
5
Okay.
A.L.J. STEIN:
let the witness finish --
MS. WILKINSON:
A.L.J. STEIN:
responses.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
10
11
Please -- please
I'm sorry.
-- their
Thank you.
Q.
(Cont'g.)
You're familiar with D.E.C.'s
wetland mitigation policy?
12
A.
(Howland)
13
Q.
And you would agree, as part of
14
15
Yes, I am.
this, to prepare a wetland mitigation plan?

A.
Yes, we would.
16
MS. WILKINSON:
17
just -- just for the record, I would like to enter
18
a pre-file D.E.C. exhibit, Freshwater Wetlands
19
Regulation Guidelines on Compensatory Mitigation.
20
A.L.J. STEIN:
21
as Exhibit Number Forty-eight for identification.
22
Your Honor,
I will take this
Can you give a copy to the
23
reporter, as well?
24
25
A.L.J. STEIN:
And this is a
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fifteen-page document -- fourteen-page document
entitled Freshwater Wetlands Regulation Guidelines
on Compensatory Mitigation, Department of
Environmental Conservation.
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q.
(Cont'g.)
Ms. Howland, is Exhibit -- I
believe Forty-seven, which I just handed out, is
that what you understand to be the D.E.C. policy of
10
wetlands --?
11
A.L.J. STEIN:
12
Forty-eight.
13
BY MS. WILKINSON:
14
Q.
This is
(Cont'g.)
Oh, I'm sorry.
Forty-eight, is
15
that what you recognize as a D.E.C. policy on
16
wetlands mitigation?
17
18
A.
(Howland)
Yes.
your guidelines -- guidelines on wetland --
19
Q.
Okay.
20
A.
-- mitigation.
21
Q.
Thank you.
22
23
MS. WILKINSON:
No further
questions at this time, your Honor.
24
25
It's their --
A.L.J. STEIN:
much.
Thank you very
*2.
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MR. BLOW:
I have one follow-up
on the wetlands, which might be helpful if we did
it in the same area, rather than -- but I can wait,
if you want me to.
A.L.J. STEIN:
7
8
No.
Go ahead.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. BLOW:
Q.
In -- are you aware of the -- of
10
the wetland weighing standards in -- I believe it's
11
part six sixty-three of D.E.C.'s regulations?
12
13
A.
(Howland)
I'm not familiar with
Q.
Are you aware that there are
that section.
14
15
class one through four wetlands and that different
16
standards apply to when you can cross each of those
17
wetlands?
18
MS. WILKINSON:
19
going to object because this is asking for a legal
20
conclusion and it's --
21
MR. BLOW:
22
MS. WILKINSON:
Your Honor, I'm
No, it's not.

-- it's -- it's
23
ready -- she said she's not familiar with the
24
standards.
25
A.
I -- I -- I'm familiar that

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Howland/Gilstrap/Werth - Cross - Blow
there's four classes of wetlands.
they can be crossed, I'm not familiar with that.
BY MR. BLOW:
As far as when
(Cont'g.)
Q.
So, in your -- in the routing of
this -- of -- of -- in -- in deciding upon a route
for the project, are you saying that you did not
look at the wetland weighing standards?
not apply them in -- in figuring out the conditions
10
You did
under which the wetlands can be crossed?
11
A.
(Howland)
The D.E.C. wetlands
12
that would be in the project right-of-way, we
13
identified the classes of those wetlands.
14
sorry.
15
16
I'm
I just lost my train of thought.

Q.
All right.
You -- you identified
the classes of the wetlands to be crossed?
17
A.
Yes, which is --.
18
Q.
But you're not aware that there
19
are -- that -- that associated with each of the
20
classes, there are characteristics and -- and
21
conditions in the wetland weighing standards that
22
specify when those condition -- when those wetlands
23
can be crossed, or the conditions under which those
24
wetlands can be crossed?
25
Is -- is that correct?
MR. METCALFE:
I'm going to
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object.
I think the witnesses have testified only
that they're not familiar with the D.E.C.
regulations.
turning that in to a broader scope than what they
testified to.
And it sounds like Mr. Blow is
7
8
A.L.J. STEIN:
Can you rephrase
the question?
MR. BLOW:
Well, I -- if they're
10
not aware of it, then I think they have a bigger
11
problem.
So I -- I'm -- I think --.
12
MR. METCALFE:
Well, they may not
13
be aware of it by citation and that might have been
14
what was --.
15
BY MR. BLOW:
16
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Well, I don't have the -- I don't
17
have the wetland weighing standards in my head, as
18
to -- there are certain wetland -- if -- if I
19
remember correctly, there are certain standards
20
that -- a -- a class one wetland can only be
21
crossed if there's no other reasonable alternative.
22
I believe that's it.
23
Ms. Wilkinson could help me out
24
here, but there are different standards for when
25
a -- a class two wetland weighing -- a class two
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Page 398
wetland can only be crossed if a -- certain other
characteristics apply to it.
As -- as you get down to a class
four wetland, it's -- it can be crossed pretty
much -- you know, there's -- there's -- there are
less stringent standards as to when a wetland can
be crossed, depending on which class you're --
you're talking about, whether you go from class
10
one, two, three, and four.
11
Are you aware of those -- that
12
there are -- are you aware that there are less
13
stringent standards as you proceed for -- for --
14
when wetlands can be crossed, as you proceed from
15
class one through class four?
16
MS. WILKINSON:
17
Metcalfe had an objection and I echo his objection
18
because I think the weighing and balancing
19
standards in regulation go beyond the expertise of
20
this particular panel, because they take into
21
account social and economic and other
22
considerations.
It's a very broad --
23
MR. BLOW:
24
MS. WILKINSON:
25
Your Honor, Mr.
And I would ask --- way of
balancing.
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Page 399
MR. BLOW:
-- then I would ask
Mr. Metcalfe to tell me which panel I can ask this
question to, because this -- this line of
questioning goes to whether, in the routing of this
line, state law is being applied.
weighing standards are state law, under Section
126.1(f) of the Public Service Law, State Law must
be complied with.
10
11
MS. WILKINSON:
Blow.
MR. BLOW:
13
MS. WILKINSON:
14
condition is going to be --
15
MR. BLOW:
Right.
-- I think the
you're -MS. WILKINSON:
18
A.L.J. STEIN:
19
MR. BLOW:
-- applying it.
Wait.
-- objecting to my
line of question.
21
22
So, I don't --
-- I'm not sure why
17
20
I agree, Mr.
But I think that --
12
16
The wetland
MS. WILKINSON:
Because the
condition --.
23
A.L.J. STEIN:
24
wait -- wait.
25
person at a time.
Wait -- wait --
Order in the court, please.
One
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Page 400
Let me follow on Mr. Blow's
suggestion and check with Mr. Metcalfe as to --
will there be a subsequent panel that is qualified
to respond to these questions?
MR. METCALFE:
that this panel is not qualified to respond, your
Honor.
Well, I don't know
I took it that his initial
10
question was focused on the citation for the D.E.C.
11
regulations.
12
they were not familiar with that citation.
And their answer was there were --
13
He -- if he were to ask questions
14
about their familiar -- familiarity with the
15
weighing standards themselves and their application
16
here, that might be more helpful.
17
MR. BLOW:
I believe I did and I
18
believe that the only person that objected to that
19
line was Ms. Wilkinson.
20
21
MR. METCALFE:
And I didn't
object to that line.
22
MR. BLOW:
Thank you.
23
A.L.J. STEIN:
And as -- since
24
it's Mr. Metcalfe's witness, I think it's up to him
25
to make the objections.
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Page 401
So, if you could restate the
questions along the lines Mr. Metcalfe just
indicated, you can put it back to this panel.
MR. BLOW:
6
7
BY MR. BLOW:
Sure.
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Are you aware, that as you go
from a class one wetland to a class four wetland,
the -- the reasons -- the allowable reasons for
10
crossing or the -- or the characteristics, what you
11
have to show in order to cross a wetland changes
12
and becomes less stringent, as you move from class
13
one to class four?
14
A.
(Ms. Gilstrap)
I am aware that
15
the class -- as you proceed from class one to class
16
four, that the wetlands become less valuable, that
17
class one wetlands are -- are the most valuable
18
wetlands, yes.
19
Q.
And are you aware that the
20
allowable reasons or characteristics for crossing,
21
when -- when you decide whether you need to cross a
22
wetland, the showing that you have to make for a
23
class one wetland is different and higher than the
24
cross -- than the -- than the showing that one has
25
to make in crossing a class four wetland?
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Page 402
A.
I am aware that the -- the
standards and protocol for class -- for crossing
class one wetlands are more stringent than crossing
class four wetlands.
Q.
And in the routing of the -- of
the -- of the -- proposed routing of the project,
did -- did you -- do you believe that the
characteristics and the reasons and the showings
10
that are required to cross the various wetlands
11
have been made in your application?
12
A.
We -- we have noted in our
13
application the classes of each of the wetlands --
14
D.E.C. wetlands that are located in the project
15
corridor.
16
There is one class three wetland
17
and three class two wetlands, located inside the
18
project right-of-way.
19
20
MR. BLOW:
I think I'll leave it
there.
21
A.L.J. STEIN:
22
For the Department of Agriculture and Markets?
23
24
MR. CUDDEBACK:
Thank you.
Good morning,
your Honor.
25
A.L.J. STEIN:
You need a
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Page 403
1
2

microphone.
3
4
5
MR. CUDDEBACK:
Thank you.
Good
morning, your Honor.

We're proposing to enter three exhibits into
evidence.
The first would be an information
request and response, D.P.S. Nine, requested April
19th, 2013, and replied May the 2nd, 2013.
9
10
A.L.J. STEIN:
And this is a
one-page document?
11
MR. CUDDEBACK:
It is.
12
A.L.J. STEIN:
And --
13
MR. CUDDEBACK:
Yes.
14
A.L.J. STEIN:
15
as Exhibit Number Forty-nine, for identification.
16
MR. CUDDEBACK:
-- we will take it
Okay.
And the
17
second exhibit is also an information request,
18
D.P.S. Four, dated April 19th and responded May
19
2nd, 2013.
20
21
A.L.J. STEIN:
And this is a three-page document?
22
23
Just a second.
MR. CUDDEBACK:
It's a three-page
document, with one -- four attachments.
24
A.L.J. STEIN:
25
that as Exhibit Number Fifty for identification.
And we'll take
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Page 404
MR. CUDDEBACK:
the third document is also an information request
and response, D.P.S. Number Thirty-nine, requested
August 29th, 2013, and replied September 13th,
2013.
7
8
A.L.J. STEIN:
And that will be
MR. CUDDEBACK:
Yes.
That's two
pages and one attachment.
11
A.L.J. STEIN:
12
MR. CUDDEBACK:
13
CROSS EXAMINATION
14
And
marked as Exhibit Number Fifty-one.
9
10
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
BY MR. CUDDEBACK:
15
Q.
Good morning.
I want to direct
16
your attention to D.P.S. Nine, which has been
17
marked as Exhibit Forty-nine.
18
with that?
Are you familiar
19
A.
(Werth)
20
Q.
In that exhibit, you indicated
Yes.
21
that in creating the proposed transmission route
22
and switching station location, NYSEG has attempted
23
to balance impacts to open space, agricultural
24
fields and forested lands, to maximize -- to the
25
maximum extent practical.
Is that true?
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Page 405
Howland/Gilstrap/Werth - Cross - Cuddeback
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
You also had indicated
that NYSEG has maximized the use of field
boundaries and property boundaries, and that by
citing facility along natural corridors, such as
fields and property boundaries, the line avoids
bisecting properties and open spaces, while also
balancing impacts to the forest and agricultural
10
resources.
Is that correct?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Please, if you would, turn your
13
attention to D.P.S. -- to the response to D.P.S.'s
14
information request, Number Four, which has been
15
marked as Exhibit Fifty.
16
If you go to the back of that
17
document, to the attachment, the last attachment,
18
which is a map labeled attachment three to that --
19
to your response, do you see the map?
20
A.
21
22
Yes.
(Howland)
Q.
Yes.
So, the map appears to show the
23
proposed site for the Ghent switching station and a
24
portion of the National Grid trunk fifteen
25
extension loops.
Is that correct?
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Page 406
A.
(Werth)
Q.
Looking at that map, it appears
Yes.
that the switching station and extension loops are
located entirely on an agricultural field.
correct?
7
8
Is that
A.
Within the boundaries of this
Q.
And in fact, it appears that the
map, yes.
9
10
extension loops bisect that particular agricultural
11
field.
Is that correct?
12
A.
13
northern boundary of the field.
14
Q.
15
They're located towards the
Okay.
According to NYSEG's
application, Exhibit Four Point Two Point One --
16
A.
Okay.
17
Q.
-- it states that the following
18
construction -- following construction of the
19
switching station, agricultural activities will not
20
resume on the site.
Is that still accurate?
21
A.
22
of the switching station, yes.
23
Q.
And the extension loop -- loops?
24
A.
No.
25
Within the boundaries of the --
Underneath the transmission
lines, agricultural use will be permitted.
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Page 407
Q.
Okay.
Yesterday, you mentioned,
I think, in your testimony, that the -- the
switching station would take roughly six percent of
the agricultural field --
A.
Yes.
Q.
-- operation?
Thank you.
Now,
in that calculation, do you -- did you take into
account any structures on the field?
10
A.
No.
11
transmission lines.
12
site.
13
14
Q.
There was not the -- the

That was the switching station
Okay.
And did that calculation
also take into account any access roads?
15
A.
The access road has not been
16
designed, so we don't know the exact impact of
17
that.
18
Q.
So do we know if construction
19
will -- construction of the switching station will
20
affect a larger area than the two-acre footprint of
21
that site?
22
A.
If construction will?
23
Q.
Would -- would the siting --
24
well, withdrawn.
25
Will the construction activities

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Page 408
affect a larger area than the two-acre footprint on
that site?
MR. METCALFE:
Clarification.
Construction activities for the switching station
or the transmission line, or both?
BY MR. CUDDEBACK:
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Concerning the switching station.
A.
(Werth)
There may be additional
10
areas required for construction.
11
would be a better question directed towards the
12
engineers.
13
Q.
Okay.
14
A.
(Howland)
15
18
Thank you.
There should be a
temporary impact on construction.
16
17
I believe that
A.L.J. STEIN:
Can you repeat
your answer with the microphone?

A.
(Cont'g.)
That would be -- I
19
just noted if it was beyond the footprint of the
20
Ghent -- proposed Ghent switching station, that
21
would be a temporary impact for -- during
22
construction only.
23
BY MR. CUDDEBACK:
24
25
Q.
(Cont'g.)
So, there may be a need for
additional area -- a construction staging area
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then, in relation to the construction of the
switching station here, as shown as on this map?
A.
(Howland)
There may be need for
additional temporary impacts for -- along with in
and out of that, to construct a station, I don't
believe we would put in a staging area.
staging areas would probably be -- we would look
for other areas -- you know, that's what they --
The
10
you know, when we're bringing equipment in, you
11
know there may be a temporary spot for equipment
12
specific to the Ghent switching station, but we are
13
not proposing that that area will be a staging area
14
for the entire construction activities.
15
Q.
Okay.
Thank you.
Do you know if
16
NYSEG is proposing to strip and then stockpile
17
topsoil from the areas affected by the construction
18
of the switching station and access road?
19
A.
That hasn't been determined yet.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
22
23
24
25
When -- when -- when is
that normally determined?

A.
During the preparation of
environmental management and construction plan.

Q.
Okay.
Thank you.
Typically,
when you do strip and stockpile the topsoil, where
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do you -- where do you put that in temporary
storage?
A.
If there's -- I'm having trouble
with your question because I look at when we strip
topsoil, it's for a different type of facility.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Now, this is going to be a
9
10
11
permanent facility, so you know, that has not been

determined.
Q.
Okay.
Thank you.
So, it's --
12
it's conceivable then that the stockpiled topsoil
13
would occupy additional land on the -- bless you --
14
construction site?
15
A.
If need be, yes.
16
Q.
Okay.
Thank you.
The -- the
17
trunk, number fifteen extension, that involves two
18
parallel one fifteen kV lines, west of the proposed
19
Ghent switchyard.
Is that correct?
20
A.
(Werth)
21
Q.
Thank you.
Yes.
Going back to
22
attachment three of Exhibit Fifty, the -- the
23
proposed location of the switching station is
24
located to the northerly edge of what appears to be
25
a field -- hayfield.
Is that correct?
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2
3
A.
Are you referring to figure
D.P.S. dash four dash one?
Q.
Yes.
A.
Yes.
northeast corner of the field.
Q.
It's located on -- in the
Is the eastern edge of the
switchyard located at the easterly edge of that
hayfield?
10
A.
No, it's not.
To meet -- Town of
11
Ghent sent back requirements that it has to be
12
offset from the property boundary.
13
14
Q.
Okay.
And do you know what that
off -- offset is?
15
A.
16
like it's a fifty-foot setback.
17
Q.
I'll have to check.
Okay.
Thank you.
It looks
Do you know
18
what the dimensions are of that field along the
19
eastern edge?
20
21
A.
It appears from this map to be
approximately five hundred feet.
22
Q.
Running north to south?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
And do you have the
dimensions going east-west?
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2
3
A.
From the map, it appears to be
approximately double the north-south distance.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Or -- yeah.
Q.
So, what would be, then, the --
the total acreage of that dimension, then, if you
know, roughly?
9
10
A.
I -- I don't now off the top of
Q.
Okay.
my head.
11
It appears from the map,
12
then, that there are spaces -- empty spaces on the
13
eastern and northern side of the proposed switching
14
station location.
Is that correct?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Do you know or have you
17
considered the capability of farming in those areas
18
between the proposed switching station boundary and
19
the boundary of the property?
20
A.
No.
21
Q.
Thank you.
Were -- were there
22
any attempts made to locate the switching station
23
or consideration given to allow the continued
24
agricultural activities on any portion of the
25
field?
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A.
Could you repeat that?
Q.
Yeah.
Was there any attempt or
any consideration given in the location -- or -- or
proposed location of the switching station, so as
to allow continued agricultural activities on that
field?
8
9
A.
Yes.
We located it as close to
the corner of the field as allowed by -- by Ghent
10
regulations, to try and maximize the amount of the
11
field that would be retained for agricultural use.
12
MR. CUDDEBACK:
13
for my questions.
14
Okay.
That's it
Brian has a few questions.

MR. LUSIGNAN:
Good morning,
16
MS. GILSTRAP:
Good morning.
17
MR. LUSIGNAN:
Brian Lusignan for
15
Panelists.
18
the Department of Agriculture and Markets.
19
going to ask you a few questions about the proposed
20
switching station site.
21
for any reason, just let me know.
22
If you don't understand me
CROSS EXAMINATION
23
BY MR. LUSIGNAN:
24
Q.
25
I'm
Just to follow up with one thing
that Chris was asking you about, was there any
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Howland/Gilstrap/Werth - Cross - Lusignan
consideration given to routing the extension loops
along the edge of that agricultural field that you
can see in D.P.S. Four?
5
6
A.
For -- for a
Q.
Is that portion visible on D.P.S.
A.
I believe it's further to the
Four.
9
10
Yes.
portion, we are, along the -- the field boundary.
7
8
(Werth)
west of this map.
11
Q.
Okay.
Was there any
12
consideration given to routing it along the edge in
13
that field that you can see in D.P.S. Four?
14
A.
We tried to balance following the
15
field lines with minimizing the number of angle
16
structures, because angle structures likely would
17
require guying, which will further reduce the
18
amount of land available for agricultural use
19
around the poles.
20
21
That's guying,
MR. LUSIGNAN:
Thank you.
G-U-Y-I-N-G.
22
23
BY MR. LUSIGNAN:
24
Q.
25
A.L.J. STEIN:
(Cont'g.)
I'd like to turn your attention
now to the application, Exhibit Three, and
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Page 415
specifically to page three point one -- three dash
one.
And it's under point -- three point two.
You indicate that for the
criteria used to identify the suitable site
locations included avoiding some surface water and
mapped wetlands, avoidance of map flood plains,
reasonable access to public roadways, terrain, and
compatibility of surrounding land uses, end quote.
10
And that, quote, the identified site also needed to
11
be located sufficiently close to the existing
12
National Grid trunk number fifteen hundred and
13
fifteen kV transmission line, so that easily -- so
14
that it could be easily moved into and out of the
15
proposed Ghent station, end quote, is that correct?
16
A.
(Werth)
17
Q.
Okay.
Yes.
And when selecting
18
potential sites for the switching station, how did
19
you balance those various criteria?
20
words, were they all given approximately equal
21
weight, or some more important than other ones?
22
A.
In other
All of those that are listed
23
there are the critical criteria.
24
criteria went into the selection of the site,
25
including all the other environmental constraints.
Additional
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Page 416
So agricultural use, versus forested, versus, you
know, residential or industrial use, all that
stuff.
Q.
Right.
And agricultural use
would have been wrapped into that compatibility
with surrounding land uses.
right?
Is that -- is that
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
And so specifically, how did
11
NYSEG balance the impact of potential switching
12
station sites on agricultural land with those other
13
criteria that are in three point two?
14
A.
Like -- like I previously said,
15
to try and avoid further impacts to agricultural
16
land, we did site it as close to the corner of the
17
field as possible, still allowing for the screening
18
from nine H, but also, close to the -- to the
19
industrial park.
20
Q.
And Exhibit Three talks about two
21
alternative locations for the switching station.
22
Is that right?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Both of those are in active
25
agricultural land; right?
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Page 417
A.
Yes.
Q.
Did NYSEG consider alternative
switching station locations that were not located
on active agricultural land?
A.
We did look for sites.
However,
most of that area in the study area that is -- that
meets the criteria laid out there, level terrain,
outside of flood plains, outside of wetlands, most
10
of that land is either currently used for
11
residential, agricultural, or commercial or an
12
industrial land already.
13
Q.
And so are you saying that those
14
parcels were not considered because they were
15
already being used for those uses or they were the
16
only available parcels to build the switching
17
station?
18
A.
The only land available that
19
meets the criteria set forth fall into the -- into
20
those categories.
21
there, we try to avoid forcing the resident out for
22
this.
23
So obviously if there's a house
And obviously placing a
24
substation in a residential land use would be less
25
compatible then siting it next to an existing
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1
2
3
4

industrial use.
Q.
Okay.
I'm going to ask you a few
questions about that industrial site.
A.
Uh-huh.
Q.
I'd like to turn your attention
to page three two, in Exhibit Three point -- or in
Exhibit Three, section three point two one.
the end of that first full paragraph it states
And at
10
that, quote, sites within the adjacent industrial
11
site were considered but rejected due to the
12
presence of forested wetlands on the majority of
13
the available land, end quote, is that correct?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
And how many -- I'm not sure if
16
it's the right question, but how many potential
17
switching station sites were considered in that
18
industrial site?
19
site as a whole when you were thinking about siting
20
the switching station?
21
A.
Or did you count the industrial
We looked at it as a whole and
22
started looking for sites that would meet the
23
criteria laid out, so level terrain, outside of the
24
wetlands, outside of flood plains.
25
available land that is left in the industrial park
Much of the
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Page 419
is not level, requiring significant amounts of
grading.
available land is forested wetlands, so that would
be, obviously, clearing and filling of the wetland.
It's also forested.
Q.
Much -- much of the
And do you have a sense of -- of
what percentage of that industrial site is forested
wetlands, or just -- or you said the majority.
that more than fifty percent?
10
A.
Is
I -- I don't know the percentage,
11
but the ability to find a two-acre site in there
12
that would not impact those was -- was not really
13
feasible.
14
15
16
Q.
And so is it -- is it impossible
to build a switching station on forested wetlands?

A.
To be able to qualify for our
17
Corps permit, you have to show that there are no
18
available upland sites, for that use.
19
A.L.J. STEIN:
20
Corps, capital C-O-R-P-S.
21
BY MR. CUDDEBACK:
22
Q.
Excuse me.
That's
(Cont'g.)
And when reviewing the sites
23
within that industrial area, did NYSEG consider
24
possible mitigation techniques that could be used
25
to minimize the impact on wetlands?
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Page 420
A.
(Werth)
No, because the -- to
qualify for a Corps permit, to build it there, you
have to prove to the Corps that there are no
available upland sites that can be used for that.
Q.
So basically, categorically, you
won't consider a site if it has wetlands, if
there's an upland site available?
accurate?
Is that
10
A.
I believe that's correct.
11
Q.
Okay.
I'd like to turn your
12
attention to -- it's response D.P.S. Four.
It's
13
been numbered as Exhibit Fifty.
14
to response number two there.
15
that Summit Development Group, who owns property in
16
the industrial site, offered to sell land to NYSEG
17
for construction of a switching station.
18
right?
And specifically,
And that indicates
Is that
19
A.
That's correct.
20
Q.
And if you flip to the e-mail
21
that's attachment two to Exhibit Fifty, it looks
22
like Summit indicated they owned more than seventy
23
acres in the industrial site.
24
A.
25
Q.
And you testified that the
Is that right?
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1
2

switching station would require two acres of land?
A.
Q.
I -- I don't know if I'm
remembering this right.
testified that by the time you received Summit's
e-mail -- or the time NYSEG received Summit's offer
in March of 2011, NYSEG had already considered and
rejected the industrial site as a prospective
10
I think yesterday, you
switching station location.
Is that accurate?
11
A.
That's correct.
12
Q.
Okay.
So is it accurate to say
13
that NYSEG did not even consider Summit's March
14
2011 offer, in attempting the locate the switching
15
station?
16
A.
We had already considered trying
17
to locate the site on those lands and were not able
18
to find an adequate site.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
A.
But no, we did not further
21
correspondence with them regarding their offer or
22
anything like that.
23
Q.
Okay.
Thank you.
Now, I'd like
24
to turn your attention then to NYSEG's response to
25
D.P.S. Thirty-nine, which is Exhibit Fifty-one for
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Page 422
identification.
And specifically, response three B
states that -- this is referring to the land that's
owned by Summit in the industrial site.
have that in front of you now?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Thank you.
Do you
And response three B
states that, quote, the parcels that were
identified as owned by Summit Development Group
10
were reviewed for potential substation sites.
11
that an accurate statement?
Is
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
And that statement means that you
14
reviewed it before you received the offer from
15
Summit.
16
correct?
Is that my under -- is my understanding
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
Okay.
And then you listed a
19
variety of reasons why the Summit sites could not
20
be used.
21
now.
And I'd just like to go through those
22
And the first one, in D.P.S.
23
Thirty-nine, it says that, quote, the extensive
24
amount of wetlands located on the properties
25
greatly reduce the amount of land available for
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Page 423
1
2

siting of a new switching station, end quote.
And you've previously testified
that you don't know a hundred -- you don't know
what percentage of the seventy acres owned by
Summit are wetlands.
Is that right?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
And if you turn your attention to
9
10
the map that's attached to D.P.S. Thirty-nine, do

you see that?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
There are dark blue markings on
13
this map that indicate the mapped wetlands and then
14
lighter blue markings that are indicated as hydric
15
soils.
What are hydric soils?
16
17
Q.
Okay.
And -- and can a switching
station be built on hydric soil?
20
21
Hydric soils are one indicator of
wetlands.
18
19
A.
A.
Yes, it can be built on hydric
soil as long as it is not a -- an actual wetland.
22
Q.
Okay.
And did NYSEG consider the
23
feasibility of building a switching station on
24
hydric soil, on the property that is owned by
25
Summit?
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Page 424
A.
We tried to avoid the areas of
hydric soils because they are indicative of
potential wetlands.
Q.
And now you say that hydric soils
are indicative of -- of wetlands, but there's a
portion in the middle of this map that is indicated
to be wetlands, but is not indicated to be hydric
soils.
Do you see that?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
And is -- is that accurate, to
12
the best of your knowledge?
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
All right.
Now, I'd like to
15
direct your attention to figure -- it's figure four
16
seven, and I think it came in as a response to
17
information request F, along with the deficiency
18
letter responses.
19
soils in the whole site area.
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
Could you look down to where the
22
And it's of a map of hydric

Do you see that map?
proposed switching station site is on that map?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Now, as I was looking at this
25
map, I didn't see any hydric soils indicated around
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Page 425
the switching station site, on this particular map.
Is that accurate?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Is there -- do -- do you have an
explanation or a reason why this map seems to be
inconsistent with the map we were just looking at,
attached to D.P.S. Four?
A.
I don't believe it is.
10
Q.
It's not -- it's inconsistent?
11
A.
It's consistent.
12
Q.
It is consistent?
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
But -- so what -- I guess I don't
15
see on this map, the hydric soils that were noted
16
in the map attached to D.P.S. Thirty-nine.
17
18
A.
Actually, I can
point them out to you, if you like.
19
20
They're there.
Q.
Okay.
That's certainly a
possibility.
21
All right.
Let's go back to
22
D.P.S. Thirty-nine, which is Exhibit Fifty.
23
you indicated in response three B that, quote, to
24
have enough land, end quote, the switching station,
25
quote, would have been more difficult to get
And
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Page 426
1
2

transmission lines into and out of, end quote.
Why is that?
A.
the potential land is located.
transmission line out to the east would be more
difficult and more -- more angle structures, all of
the --.
Q.
The -- because of where the -So getting a
And it -- is that -- is there a
10
particular site you're referring to that you
11
considered with respect to that problem?
12
A.
13
that was an attachment there --
14
Q.
Uh-huh.
15
A.
-- basically, the land outside of
If you look at the -- the map
16
the -- the -- the wetlands and the hydric soils
17
there, that's outlined in purple and not already --
18
Q.
So, you're saying any of those
19
sites would pose the problem of getting
20
transmission lines into and out of?
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
Okay.
And just -- when you're
23
talking about transmission lines, are you talking
24
about the lines coming in or the extensions that
25
are going out towards the National Grid trunk?
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Page 427
A.
It would primarily be circuit
seven twenty-six that exits to the east, because of
the large amount of development to the east.
Q.
And was there any consideration
of bringing the transmission lines south and then
to the east of those sites?
8
9
A.
I believe that's the only
feasible way to get them out of there.
10
11
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
That was considered to be
too difficult to warrant for consideration?
12
A.
13
difficult.
14
site.
It's not necessarily too
It's an additional constraint on that
15
Q.
Okay.
And you also indicated in
16
response three B, to D.P.S. Thirty-nine, that
17
potential switching station sites on Summit's
18
property would be, quote, five hundred feet closer
19
to residences, end quote.
20
What -- again, what sites does
21
that refer to?
22
mapped wetlands or hydric soils?
23
Is it all the sites that aren't
A.
We basically identified one area
24
that would potentially meet the criteria laid out
25
and that one would be five hundred feet closer to
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Page 428
1
2

the nearest residence.
Q.
And what area was that?
A.
On the map, on the western
parcel, there's the wetland that corresponds with
the hydric soil.
Q.
Uh-huh.
A.
You see that?
Q.
Uh-huh.
10
A.
That would be north of there, in
11
that forested stand.
12
Q.
And is that -- that -- that --
13
that's sort of in the middle of the map, to the
14
west?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Okay.
What about just to the
17
south of that, do you see that little road --
18
cul-de-sac coming off of it?
19
20
21
22
A.
Yes.
There's a significant
terrain in that area.

Q.
So, you mean a lot of grading --
it would require a lot of grading to put --
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
-- your site in there?
25
A.
It would require grading down
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Page 429
near the -- the D.E.C. protected stream at the --
south of that property.
Q.
And did you consider the
feasibility of that grading when you were looking
at that site?
A.
No.
Q.
Didn't meet it.
It didn't meet our criteria.

Okay.
And you
also noted, in D.P.S. Thirty-nine response B, that
10
siting the switching station on the Summit
11
property, quote, would have required significant
12
amount of woodland clearing, end quote.
13
Do you know approximately what
14
percentage of Summit's seventy acres are wooded?
15
A.
16
head, but just looking at this map, it's a large
17
portion.
18
Q.
And did NYSEG identify sites on
19
the Summit property that would minimize the need to
20
clear the woodland?
21
A.
No.
Like I said, the -- there's
22
very limited area within that seventy acres
23
where -- that would meet the criteria and that is
24
an entire forested stand.
25
wooded, basically, yes.
What was left was all
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Page 430
Q.
All right.
Okay.
And did you
estimate or create an estimate for how --
approximately how many acres of woodland would need
to be cleared to put in this transmission
facility -- or excuse me -- switching station and
the transmission lines?
8
9
10
A.
But it's approximately a
two-acre switching station site and it would be

located -- it would be within forest.
11
12
No.
Q.
Okay.
And then the -- the
right-of-way for the transmission line --
13
A.
Correct.
14
Q.
-- and the extension loops?
15
Okay.
Thank you.
16
So would it be fair to say that
17
an ideal switching station location would be
18
cleared of trees, fairly flat, relatively
19
well-drained, and have some distance from nearby
20
residences?
21
22
A.
Ideally, yes.
The -- the -- the
forest could go either way.
23
Q.
Uh-huh.
24
A.
But the other ones are -- are
25
primary criteria.
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Page 431
Q.
And isn't -- isn't it true that
that description also applies to most agricultural
fields?
5
6
7
A.
I would say with the exception of
the residences.
Q.
Okay.
And so I'm just curious
how NYSEG balances, again, the need to have -- to
protect active agricultural land against those
10
other environmental factors that seem to be pushing
11
you towards agricultural land?
12
A.
In this area, like I said, most
13
of the land that meets the criteria is either
14
already developed or is agricultural land.
15
other areas, it would not necessarily be that
16
because they're -- typically here, the forested
17
stands are -- are fairly terrained, are fairly
18
steep terrain or wetland, which concludes at the
19
end -- other areas outside of this study area
20
generally you can find flat, forested properties
21
that could be used.
22
23
Q.
Okay.
In
And you would consider
those properties, even though they were forested?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
And I believe you testified to
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this earlier, but did NYSEG ever discuss the
possible cost of purchasing land from Summit
Development Group?
5
6
A.
No, because we had ruled out
those properties.
Q.
And did -- and did cost -- was
cost at all a consideration in locating the
switching site?
10
That is the cost of acquiring the
land for the switching site?
11
A.
No.
12
Q.
And again, I -- the record might
13
be clear on this, but just to make it completely
14
clear, have you communicated with the owners of
15
either of the alternative switching station sites
16
located in Exhibit -- excuse me.
17
Strike that.
Have you communicated with the
18
land owners for either of the alternative switching
19
station sites described in Exhibit Three?
20
A.
No.
Not other than the -- the
21
general notices that went out to all land owners
22
along the lines.
23
Q.
So, that's up to and including
A.
Right.
24
25
yesterday?
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Q.
And have any -- have any other
land owners near proposed switching station site
communicated with NYSEG, indicating that they might
be willing to sell land?
6
7
A.
Group, no.
8
9
Other than Summit Development
MR. LUSIGNAN:
I'd like just a
moment to discuss with co-counsel?
10
A.L.J. STEIN:
11
(Off the record) *3
12
BY MR. LUSIGNAN:
13
Q.
Please.
(Cont'g.)
If I could flip you back now to
14
the D.P.S. Four response, I think it's Exhibit
15
Forty-nine --
16
A.L.J. STEIN:
17
BY MR. LUSIGNAN:
18
Q.
19
Fifty.
(Cont'g.)
-- Fifty -- excuse me -- and
specifically to the map that's attachment three.
20
A.
(Werth)
21
Q.
Now the extension loops that are
Okay.
22
coming out of that proposed switching station site
23
are double -- two structures, each with a single
24
circuit on it.
25
A.
Okay.
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Q.
And did NYSEG consider at all the
impact on farming efficiency of having those dual
structures in that field?
A.
We tried to minimize the distance
between the structures and the total right-of-way
to reduce the lane use impact.
Q.
And then with respect to the
land -- strike that.
Excuse me.
10
With respect to the land that's
11
immediately to the west of the switching station,
12
do you see that little sliver there?
13
A.
Which little sliver?
14
Q.
Or excuse me.
Immediately to the
15
east of the switching station, there's a small
16
little parcel there.
17
18
A.
Okay.
Just to the east and west
of State Route 9H?
19
Q.
Just between that purple
20
square -- rectangle and the green property boundary
21
there --
22
A.
Okay.
23
Q.
-- did NYSEG consider that land
24
to be -- in calculating the amount of land that was
25
affected by the switching station, did NYSEG
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consider that that land would still be used for
agricultural purposes?
4
5
6
7
A.
Yes.
Everything outside of the
Q.
Everything outside of the actual
fenced area.
footprint of the switching station?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Okay.
And so that also goes for
10
the land, the larger portion of land that's to the
11
east of that purple rectangle?
12
A.
Correct.
13
Q.
And do you know --?
14
15
A.L.J. STEIN:
MR. WERTH:
17
A.L.J. STEIN:
18
BY MR. LUSIGNAN:
19
Q.
21
Excuse me.
Did you answer -- did you answer?
16
20
Wait.
Yes.
I said correct.
Okay.
Good.
(Cont'g.)
And do you know, in fact, whether
that amount of land can be productively farmed?

A.
(Werth)
It's a hayfield, so it
22
would be allowed to continue to grow as hay.
23
assuming that you're referring to the ability to
24
mow and bale that.
25
Q.
Right.
I'm
To get farm equipment in

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1
2

and out of it and --?
3
4
A.
I don't know the size of the
equipment used by the landowner.
Q.
And do you have an estimate for
how many structures are anticipated to be a part of
that National Grid number fifteen extension loops?
8
9
10
A.
head.
The engineers probably would know that
better than I.
11
12
Q.
questions.
Okay.
I have no further
13
Thank you, panelists.

A.
14
Thanks.
A.L.J. STEIN:
Okay.
All right.
15
Now, we're moving on to Department of Public
16
Service staff, which has reserved ninety minutes.
17
So I'm going to take a short break here,
18
fifteen-minute break.
19
question of the parties.
But I want to just ask a

We can go off the record.
20
(Off the record)
21
A.L.J. STEIN:
22
Counsel?
23
MR. BLOW:
24
25
Back on record.
Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. BLOW:
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Page 437
Q.
One follow-up question for the
panel in response to a question by Ms. Wilkinson,
the panel indicated that it did not go onto private
property while we were developing the route;
correct?
A.
(Werth)
Q.
Did anybody ask the private
Correct.
landowners for the ability to go on their property?
10
A.
We did not.
11
Q.
Now, I'd like to turn Exhibit
12
Forty-three, which, if I'm correct, is D.P.S.
13
Four -- response to D.P.S. Four.
14
A.
Okay.
15
Q.
Is --?
16
A.L.J. STEIN:
17
actually.
18
BY MR. BLOW:
19
(Cont'g.)
Q.
20
Fifty.
21
look there.
D.P.S. Five,
I'm sorry.
Oh, I'm sorry.
D.P.S. -- it's
It was D.P.S. Four.
If you'd
22
A.
At D.P.S. Four; correct?
23
Q.
At D.P.S. Four.
24
A.
Okay.
25
Q.
And specifically about question
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two -- two in D.P.S. Four.
Group the current property owner of the proposed
location for the Ghent switching station, or does
it represent the current owner of this property?
A.
No.
Q.
Okay.
Is Summit Development
So it's -- it owns the
property adjacent to the parcel of land where the
Ghent switching station is proposed to be located;
10
right?
The Summit Group?
11
12
13
A.
Yes.
They own the property just
Q.
Do you know who is the current
to the north.
14
owner of the property at the location of the
15
proposed Ghent switching station?
16
A.
Not off the top of my head.
17
Q.
Would you accept, subject to
18
check, Dorothy White?
19
A.
I believe that's correct, yes.
20
Q.
And the entire footprint of the
21
proposed Ghent switching station will be located on
22
Ms. White's property; wouldn't it?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
And as Mr. -- well, one of the
25
Correct.
representatives from the Department of Ag and
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Page 439
Markets questioned you about the -- this parcel,
it's a -- it's an active agricultural field; right?
4
5
A.
Correct.
It's an active
Q.
On -- can you tell us how the
hayfield.
6
7
proposed Ghent switching station would be accessed
during construction?
9
10
It would be accessed off of State
Q.
Wouldn't the switching station
Route 9H.
11
12
A.
require a permanent access road after construction?
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
Where would the permanent access
15
road be located?
16
A.
The permanent access road has not
17
been designed yet, but it is contemplated to come
18
off of State Route 9H.
19
Q.
In this same location as the
20
temporary access road that you're contemplating for
21
construction; right?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
Now would that be narrower or
24
wider than the temporary access road, if you have
25
an idea?
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A.
I don't know.
That would
probably be a better question directed towards the
engineers that will be designing it.
Q.
And would you say that the design
of the access roads would be done during the
environmental management and construction plan,
that is, E.M. and C.P. phase?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Okay.
Let's see; I think one of
11
the questions about regarding the response to the
12
deficiency nine was left for Mr. -- for you, Mr.
13
Werth.
14
deficiency nine?
Would you turn to the response to
15
16
A.L.J. STEIN:
first deficiency response?
17
18
Is this in the
MR. BLOW:
BY MR. BLOW:
Yes.
December 2012.
(Cont'g.)
19
Q.
Let me know when you find it.
20
A.
Okay.
21
Q.
Will National Grid ultimately
22
take ownership of some portion of the one fifteen
23
kV facilities?
24
25
A.
No.
At this time, it's intended
that NYSEG will -- all of this project, but
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Page 441
National Grid will operate the extension out of the
National Grid trunk fifteen lines.
Q.
Regardless of ownership, wouldn't
you agree that National Grid is something of a
partner in -- has been something of a partner in
the planning of this proposed facility?
8
9
A.
National Grid has not been
involved in the planning of this project.
10
Q.
But it did specify; didn't it,
11
where the interconnection would take place?
12
should -- that where it wanted the interconnection
13
to take place?
14
A.
It
As far as the rejection of the
15
connection into Valkin, is that what you're talking
16
about?
17
Q.
Well, I think the previous panel
18
with Mr. McKinney testified that National Grid
19
rejected that Kline Kill connection; right?
20
21
22
A.
I believe that's what he
testified to, to the Valkin, not the Kline Kill.

Q.
23
I'm sorry.
Valkin.
MR. METCALFE:
And I'm going to
24
object that Mr. Werth isn't an expert on the
25
testimony provided yesterday by Mr. McKinney.
But
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Page 442
if I might help to perhaps clarify, I think all
that panel said yesterday was that a direct
connection into the very Valkin substation that
National Grid owns was rejected due to congestion.
But I don't recall any testimony to the effect that
National Grid indicated the location for the
switching station, unless Mr. Blow recalls
differently.
10
BY MR. BLOW:
11
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Okay.
Will National Grid operate
12
any portion of the line, even though it would be
13
owned by NYSEG?
14
15
A.
National Grid will operate the
extension of the National Grid trunk fifteens.
16
Q.
If this is better for the Barteck
17
panel, I can move on, I think, to there.
18
you know whether National Grid said that the
19
line -- line number fifteen can be tapped anywhere
20
between Valkin and Hudson?
21
A.
22
23
I don't know the answer to that.

MR. METCALFE:
And that's not
part of our direct case.
24
25
But do
MR. BLOW:
Where you can tap
the --?
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Page 443
MR. METCALFE:
National Grid said that or not.
MR. BLOW:
No.
But whether
Well, you had to pick
it -- pick the point somewhere.
thought the panel yesterday said that the location
of the switching station was chosen by this panel.
8
9
MR. WERTH:
Is this -- and I
The location of the
switching station was selected by us.
10
MR. METCALFE:
Is it the tap
11
points that you're asking about, Mr. Blow?
12
BY MR. BLOW:
13
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Well, when you have a switching
14
station, you pick a switching station location in
15
relation to the tap point; right?
16
17
MR. METCALFE:
Or the other way
around.
18
MR. BLOW:
Well, what was -- I'd
19
like to ask what this panel knew about where the
20
tap points were going to be located.
21
22
A.L.J. STEIN:
A.
(Werth)
You may ask that.
We weren't given
23
specific tap points.
24
station, and then we sited the lines over to tap
25
the existing National Grid trunk fifteen line.
We sited the Ghent switching
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1
2

BY MR. BLOW:
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Okay.
So it's your testimony
then, regarding the siting of the Ghent -- you're
the ones that sited the Ghent switching station,
you're the ones that chose the route of the lines
to go over to tap the one fifteen -- or the number
fifteen trunk line; right?
A.
Correct.
10
Q.
Now, let's see.
Do you know
11
whether National Grid has any other planned or
12
proposed transmission developments in the project
13
area?
14
A.
15
I don't know any of that.

MR. METCALFE:
16
Mr. Blow is going?
17
to use of the --.
18
I'd be fine with narrowing it
MR. BLOW:
19
for now.
20
BY MR. BLOW:
21
Can I ask where
Well, I'll leave it
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Do you know whether there are any
22
National Grid gas facilities -- transmission
23
facilities within or near the proposed tap point of
24
the National Grid trunk one fifteen -- trunk
25
fifteen line?
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Page 445
A.
I believe National Grid did
indicate that they have a gas line in the
right-of-way for the existing line.
Q.
For the existing --
A.
Trunk fifteen.
Q.
-- trunk fifteen?
Do you know
where the gas transmission line is in that
right-of-way?
10
A.
I do not.
11
Q.
Was the configuration of
12
facilities proposed at the tap point of the
13
National Grid line depicted in a supplement to the
14
application in response to deficiency nine?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
We'll -- I think the rest
are going to be for other witnesses.
18
Would you refer to Exhibit Four
19
at page forty-nine, and let me know when you have
20
it.
I believe that's four of the application.
21
22
A.
(Howland)
Q.
Yes.
Do you have a specific
page?
23
It's page four, dash,
24
forty-nine.
It's section -- it's a -- includes a
25
paragraph four point five point two point three,
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Page 446
1
2

describing potential impacts to wetlands.
A.
(Werth)
Q.
At the end of the second
Okay.
We have it.
paragraph, this section of the application
indicates that some access roads may be permanent
where they are determined to be necessary for
maintenance activities.
Do you see that?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Is this statement specifically
11
regarding wetlands or is this generally applicable
12
to access roads for the facility?
13
14
15
A.
That would be generally
applicable to the entire project.

Q.
But it's stated here as wetlands
16
section, so it would apply specifically to wetlands
17
and generally to the project?
18
A.
It would apply generally to the
19
project and could apply to the wetlands.
20
will try to avoid placing permanent structures in
21
wetlands, as we've already stated.
22
Q.
But we
What type of site location, or
23
facility equipment, or other factor would require a
24
permanent access road to be installed?
25
A.
(Howland)
I'm not sure the

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Page 447
question is specific to a particular type of
structure.
you're going to want to be able to get to it.
it depends on where it is, if we need to get to it
later on for maintenance purposes.
existing corridor has a general, unapproved road
that follows so we could follow that.
where we can put something to follow that's not --
It would depend upon the location

So
Right now, the
In areas
10
you know, we're not going to put a permanent access
11
road through the middle of a farm field because
12
we're going to allow them to continue operation of
13
the field.
14
access road through a wetland as long as that's
15
possible, which we don't see -- in our preliminary
16
engineer, we don't see a need to put a permanent
17
access road through a wetland.
18
other areas where we have done temporary roads, and
19
they could remain so that we could get to the
20
structures, we would probably want to leave those
21
roads along with the right-of-way.
22
We're not going to put a permanent
Q.
But if there's
Right, so if you -- if you -- if
23
it started out as a temporary road and you decided
24
that you needed access, then it would become a
25
permanent road -- could become a permanent road;
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1
2

right?
A.
That would be determined in the
E.M. and C.P. phase.
we want temporary access just to get to the
right-of-way, if that will enable us to avoid
perhaps stream crossings, right now.
probably be temporary.
know, there's some locations we're thinking that
Like we're looking at maybe
Those would
As far as long term, you
10
might be nice to have an access -- a permanent
11
road.
12
know, each structure, if we're clearing it to build
13
it, if it doesn't impact like wetlands or ag lands,
14
we'd probably want to retain that as a road.
15
have to grade a road, for example, we'd probably
16
want to keep it as -- so we can continue to have
17
access.
18
maybe a temporary matted road through the ag field.
19
And all that would come up after we're done.
20
And if we're going from structure -- you
If we
Temporary would be like a temporary --
Q.
Please, refer back to page four,
21
dash, forty-eight, in the paragraph just above
22
table four, dash, ten.
23
that there are no anticipated impacts resulting
24
from permanent structure placement in N.Y.S.D.E.C.
25
wetlands and adjacent areas as preliminary
Where the exhibit states
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Page 449
engineering indicates all N.Y.S.D.E.C. wetlands and
adjacent areas can be spanned, is this referring to
the placement -- well, first of all, you see that
paragraph; right?
A.
(Werth)
Q.
Is this referring to the
Yes.
placement of transmission poles outside of wetland
areas, and thus, as -- and thus, you expect that
10
only transmission conductors or the wires would
11
cross above the wetland areas?
12
A.
(Howland)
That is correct.
We
13
will -- we are -- our preliminary engineering, it
14
appears we can place the structures -- the single
15
utility wooden poles outside of the wetland areas.
16
But the -- by the nature of the project, the
17
wire -- the conductor will span the wetlands.
18
Q.
We just want to make sure we
19
understood what the word structures in that
20
sentence that you were referring to.
21
A.
(Howland)
Yes.
We're talking --
22
structures are the wooden single utility poles.
23
That's what we're proposing here.
24
25
Q.
And could you explain what you
mean by preliminary engineering?
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Page 450
A.
(Werth)
That's probably better
defined by the engineers, but it's the amount of
engineering that's been done to date without -- on
the ground field studies.
(Howland)
You now, solar, borings, whatever
you need to do to do the final engineering.
Barteck panel could probably handle it -- answer
that question better.
The
But it's based upon what we
10
can determine by the information we have available
11
today.
12
Q.
So it's an initial prediction of
13
where the transmission structures are going to
14
be -- the poles that support the electric
15
conductors are likely to be located; right?
16
A.
That's correct.
17
Q.
That prediction is based on
18
terrain and clearance requirements between the
19
conductors and the ground; right?
20
A.
Again, this is the -- a
21
preliminary engineering was done by another group.
22
MR. METCALFE:
23
Mike Barteck panel, Steve.
24
BY MR. BLOW:
25
That would be the
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Would you consider transmission

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1
2
3

facility access roads permanent structures?
A.
(Howland)
I guess that depends
on your definition of a structure.
were looking at structures as the utility poles.
Q.
Okay.
I believe we
So did you rely -- am I
correct that you relied on a preliminary
engineering to assessed -- assess wetland impacts?
A.
(Werth)
Yes.
The preliminary
10
engineering indicated that there would be no poles
11
located within wetland areas.
12
wetland impacts were limited basically to the
13
clearing of the right-of-way.
14
Q.
So the -- the
So an initial prediction about
15
structure locations could be made; right?
16
couldn't a similar initial prediction about access
17
road location be made?
18
19
A.
So why
I think that would be better
deferred to the engineers.
20
(Howland)
21
say we know where the right-of-way is, we know
22
where the D.E.C. map wetlands are, we know where
23
the existing corridor is, and the right-of-way, and
24
there's roads along that.
25
pretty, you know, self-evident.
And we could generally
So you know, that's

We'll follow
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1
2

existing road along the existing corridor.
Now, where the other parts of the
right-of-way, we will seek to have access off
existing roadways.
we haven't gotten onto the properties.
looking from aerial maps to say, okay, this appears
to be a reasonable access road, somewhere we might
want to pursue once we have on-the-ground people
Now, there are some areas where

We're
10
that could look at it.
11
say, okay, it's reasonable, it's not in a wetland.
12
But for the ones we don't know about until we get
13
on the ground, we cannot say definitively what the
14
full impacts of those access roads were.
15
know, there may be when we get on the ground, some,
16
you know, fine-tuning to those access roads as far
17
as the route in.
18
Q.
Right.
We could look at maps and
And, you
But the application
19
doesn't indicate where access roads will be located
20
in relation to the various resources; right?
21
A.
We filed, I believe, a response
22
that said areas where we are going to suggest some
23
access roads.
24
been determined.
25
Q.
But the definitive stuff has not
Could you advise where that

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Page 453
filing was made?
A.
(Werth)
now.
deficiency letter response.
dash, five.
I'm looking for it right
I believe it was attachment twelve B to the
Q.
Okay.
It's figure three,
We can move on.
I just
wanted to make sure we had that.
There was a
reference to the fact that some steel monopole
10
structures would have to be -- would have to be
11
used.
12
structural foundations, such as concrete piers,
13
will access roads sufficient to support the
14
concrete trucks be required for those locations?
And if those structures require significant
15
A.
(Howland)
That's probably better
16
for the Barteck panel.
17
determine steel poles are, in fact needed, they
18
will determine what access requirements are needed
19
for those roads to get to those structures with the
20
equipment.
21
Q.
Okay.
But I could imagine if they
We'll -- changing topics,
22
please refer to Exhibit Four, page four, dash,
23
fifty-five and four, dash, fifty-six.
24
provide a discussion of federally listed threatened
25
or endangered species.
These pages
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Page 454
A.
We're there.
Q.
And a preliminary discussion of
impacts and mitigation measures; right?
A.
(Werth)
Q.
The sentence at the bottom of
Correct.
page four, dash, fifty-six, states that a survey
for these habitats will be conducted as part of the
E.M. and C.P.; right?
10
A.
(Howland)
11
Q.
And just so folks are clear, the
Yes.
12
E.M. and C.P., Environmental Management and
13
Construction Plan, is essentially a set of
14
construction plans and standards and details of
15
resource protection measures and requirements that
16
are used during construction of the transmission
17
facility; right?
18
A.
Correct.
19
Q.
And this plan is something that's
20
going to be developed if this commission -- Public
21
Service Commission issues a certificate authorizing
22
the project; right?
23
A.
That's my understanding.
24
Q.
So would you clarify the
25
statement at -- in the application, page four,
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dash, fifty-six?
federally endangered species habitat evaluation to
a field survey that occurs during construction?
A.
Are you proposing to leave a
(Howland)
The field survey will
not be done during construction.
will be done prior to construction during the
preparation of our management -- environmental
management, and construction plan.
10
Q.
The field survey
The list of predicted species
11
mentioned at the end of page four, dash,
12
fifty-five, and continuing onto page four, dash,
13
fifty-six, does not include the Indiana bat.
14
that correct?
15
16
A.
Is
On page four, dash, fifty-five,
it does include the Indiana bat.
17
Q.
It's my understanding that an
18
area identified as a maternity colony habitat for
19
the Indiana bat has been identified near the
20
project are.
21
A.
22
23
Is that your understanding?

A.L.J. STEIN:
A.
Steve?
That is a confidential agreement
24
between NYSEG and the New York State Department
25
Environmental Conservation, and I don't believe I'm
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1
2

ready to discuss that here.
A.L.J. STEIN:
I think we're
going to take up this area in our executive session
at the end of the hearing today.
to endangered species.
7
8
MR. BLOW:
BY MR. BLOW:
Anything related
Okay.
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Well, you did describe Indiana
10
bat maternity colonies at page four, dash,
11
fifty-five, as you said; right?
12
A.L.J. STEIN:
13
Can we take this
up at the end of the day?
14
MR. BLOW:
15
application.
16
there.
Well, it's in the
I can take it up later, but it is
17
A.L.J. STEIN:
18
limit your question to the matters that are in the
19
application, that's fine.
20
21
MR. BLOW:
MR. METCALFE:
Unless perhaps the
answer might touch on confidential information.
24
25
We'll take it up
later.
22
23
If you're going to
MR. BLOW:
later.
We'll take it up
I just have to find out where I'm at here.
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1
2
3

BY MR. BLOW:
(Cont'g.)
Q.
The application addresses
topography and soils, in section four point eight
of Exhibit Four; right?
A.
(Werth)
Q.
And if you look at page four,
Correct.
dash, fifty-eight, the application indicates that
published soil data was reviewed for the project
10
corridor; right?
11
A.
Correct.
12
Q.
In the paragraph at the middle of
13
page four, dash, fifty-eight, could you please read
14
the sentence that starts evaluation of soil
15
characteristics?
16
A.
Evaluation of soil
17
characteristics, including hydric soils, poorly
18
drained soils, prime farm land, and soils of
19
statewide importance, soils with shallow bedrock,
20
soils with shallow ground water, and soils with
21
high risk of corrosion of concrete indicates a
22
presence of soils that may be sensitive to
23
disturbance or unsuitable construction.
24
25
Q.
The application doesn't provide
an evaluation of soils that may be sensitive to
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disturbance or unsuitable for construction; does
it?
A.
5
6
Could you repeat that?

A.L.J. STEIN:
Can we have it
played back?
(The reporter complied with the
request) *4
BY MR. BLOW:
10
(Cont'g.)
Q.
The applicant doesn't -- the
11
application doesn't provide an evaluation of soils
12
that may be sensitive to disturbance or unsuitable
13
for construction; does it?
14
A.
(Howland)
We provide a list of
15
the -- we provide the soil series along the
16
proposed route.
17
at with the question.
18
Q.
I'm not sure what you're getting
Well, let me -- it's a list of
19
soils; right?
20
criteria, but not the specific evaluation of
21
locations; right?
22
And it's some construction suitably
A.
(Werth)
These are all the soils
23
crossed by the proposed route and how they rank for
24
each of those criteria that were listed in the
25
sentence that I just read.
So the risk of
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corrosion for concrete, activations, farmland
class, drainage class, hydro grading, all those are
in there.
Q.
So it identifies the constraints
or the characteristics, but it doesn't really
evaluate them along the route; right?
8
9
A.
We have mapping of them.
We
didn't do a pole-by-pole comparison of the soils,
10
if that's what you're asking.
11
Q.
Well, the application --
12
pardon -- the application has a table four, dash,
13
fourteen, a listing of soils -- soil types; right?
14
And some criteria that may limit suitability, but
15
the -- is this table tied to any specific locations
16
along the proposed line, such as the proposed
17
switchyard site?
18
A.
These are -- that table includes
19
all of the soils encountered along the proposed
20
route, including the switching station site.
21
Q.
Do you have a mapping available?
22
A.
The mapping was included as a
23
response to the deficiency, I believe.
24
four, dash, six includes prime farmland and
25
farmland of statewide importance overlaid with the
Figure
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route.
soils with an overlay of the route.
dash, eight shows a shallow lithic bedrock with an
overlay of the route.
includes depth to water table with an overlay of
the route.
8
9
Figure four, dash, seven includes hydric
Q.
Figure four,
Figure four, dash, nine
But those figures were developed
after the application was filed; right?
10
A.
Those specific figures were, yes.
11
Q.
Where did the soil
12
13
characteristics come from?

A.
It came from the N.R.C.S.
14
believe it was the SSURGO.
15
And -- it's the U.S.D.A.
16
geographic database.
That's S-S-U-R-G-O.
N.R.C.S. soil survey
17
Q.
It's a download from a website?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
Can you tell us what the soil
From the N.R.C.S.
20
series name is for the predominant soil type at the
21
22
(Werth)
If you give me a second.
23
Yes, it's the other side.
It's predominantly Scio,
24
spelled S-C-I-O, silt loam soil series.
25
A.
Q.
How do you know what the soil

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1
2

type is?
3
4
A.
It's taken from the N.R.C.S.
soils database.
Q.
And it's taken -- and you know
that, that that is the Scio silt loam zero to three
percent slope designation refers to the proposed
Ghent switchyard site how?
A.
It was taken from the N.R.C.S.
10
soils database, and it was also provided as a
11
response to the I.R. designated N.Y.S.D.A.N., dash,
12
three provided on July 29th.
13
Q.
14
15
Is that an exhibit yet?

MR. CUDDEBACK:
No, it's not an
exhibit, but it is -- it should be filed.
16
MR. METCALFE:
Was Mr. Blow's
17
question how Mr. Werth knows that at the Ghent
18
switching site location is that soil, or instead,
19
where did he get the soil identification from?
20
MR. BLOW:
21
24
25
He already
answered that question.
22
23
No.
MR. METCALFE:
BY MR. BLOW:
I'm --.
(Cont'g.)
Q.
I'm trying to figure out, and
maybe we just missed a response, but I'm trying to
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Page 462
figure out how to match up this table, four, dash,
fourteen, with the proceeding along the route of
the -- of the transmission line, including the
proposed switchyard site, or any other site so we
could match it up so that there could be an
evaluation done of, you know, with -- so you're not
just left with a table, you have a map that goes
along with that table to help us to evaluate the
10
soil characteristics along the line.
11
A.
(Werth)
We didn't produce a map
12
that calls out the soil series by name, overlaid
13
with the route.
14
mapped in those figures I just designated.
15
But all of the characteristics are
MR. BLOW:
Your Honor, we'd like
16
to introduce a map that Andy Davis prepared and as
17
a -- have it marked as Exhibit Fifty-two, to do
18
just what I was saying.
19
A.L.J. STEIN:
Exhibit number
20
Fifty-two for identification is a document
21
consisting of three pages, including a map of soil
22
types at the switchyard site, S-I-T-E, prepared by
23
D.P.S. staff.
24
BY MR. BLOW:
25
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Would you agree that Exhibit

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Fifty-two is a printout from the S.S.U.R.G.O.
website?
4
5
6
A.
(Werth)
It appears to be a
printout from the N.R.C.S. web soil survey.

Q.
Does this appear to depict the
vicinity of the proposed Ghent switchyard site at
the center of the figure?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Are you generally familiar with
11
12
this type of soil map?

A.
Yes.
This is the same data that
13
we used to produce the table and the maps that I
14
previously spoke of.
15
16
Q.
And the figure indicates the
letter S.C. at the vicinity of the switchyard site?
17
A.
I believe its S.C.A.
18
Q.
S.C.A.?
Okay -- yes.
Sorry.
19
Does that designation represent the Scio silt loam
20
zero to three percent slope?
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
Okay.
Do you have any reason to
23
doubt that the soil map indication in this figure,
24
Fifty-two, is representative of the S.S.U.R.G.O.
25
published data?
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Page 464
A.
No.
Q.
Can you tell us anything about
this particular soil type, Scio silt loam zero to
three percent slope?
excavation limitations associated with that soil
type?
8
9
A.
Are there drainage or
Referring back to table four,
dash, fourteen, on page four, dash, sixty-three, of
10
Exhibit Four, that soil series has a depth to
11
bedrock of greater than six feet, depth to water
12
table of approximately one point eight feet.
13
not hydric.
14
drained.
15
farmland.
16
a risk of corrosion from concrete is moderate.
17
It's
Drainage class is moderately well
Farm class is all areas are prime

Shallow excavation is very limited.
Q.
And
And I believe one of the
18
representatives in the Department of Ag and Markets
19
asked you this, but what does not hydric mean?
20
Well, he might have asked you the other way around.
21
But what does not hydric mean?
22
A.
(Ms. Gilstrap)
I can't speak to
23
the criteria that the N.R.C.S. looks at
24
specifically for classification, but typically,
25
non-hydric means it does not have hydric soil
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Page 465
indicators, such as coloring.
a wetland delineation when you determine if a soil
has hydric soil indicators, it's based on the color
and texture of the soil.
Q.
Okay.
For example, during
Uh-huh.
If you refer back
to the soil map in Exhibit Fifty-two, there's a
little white symbol to the left of the S.C..
9
10
A.
kind of like a bird footprint.
11
(Werth)
12
13
And can you tell us what that
A.
According to the legend, it is a
Q.
Could a wet spot potentially be a
indicates?
wet spot.
16
17
small wetland?
18
19
A.
22
(Ms. Gilstrap)
It could be.
It
would have to be field verified.
20
21
Correct.
Q.
14
15
Designation, next to a dark area,
Q.
right?
And you haven't done that yet;
The wetland delineation for that site?

A.
(Werth)
No.
We have not had
23
access to the property to do a wetland delineation.
24
(Ms. Gilstrap)
25
that for it to be a wetland, it would also have to
I will also add
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have hydrological and vegetative wetland
characteristics based on the definition given by
the Army Corps of Engineers.
Q.
And I believe you indicated -- I
believe you indicated, Mr. Werth, that table four,
dash, fourteen lists this Scio silt loam soil type
as prime farmland.
means?
10
A.
Can you tell us what that
(Werth)
I believe that
11
definition of prime farmland was in the
12
application.
13
not necessarily correspond to active agricultural
14
areas.
15
and chemical criteria, including soil properties,
16
growing season, and moisture supply needed to
17
produce sustained high yields of crops when treated
18
and managed according to acceptable farming
19
methods.
20
fifty-eight.
Rather, they simply meet certain physical
21
22
25
And that is on page four, dash,
Q.
Do you know how the soil mapping
is done for the S.S.U.R.G.O. publication?
23
24
Let me -- so prime farmland soils do
A.
Q.
So you don't know whether it's a
head, no.
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Page 467
prediction or whether it's based on field surveys
or --?
A.
I don't know that off the top of
Q.
Anybody on the panel?
A.
(Howland)
my head, no.
No, I can't say with
certainty unless we talk to them and find out how
this particular area in this particular county was
10
identified and noted.
11
Q.
On the Exhibit Fifty-two, there's
12
some dark areas shown.
13
areas might indicate within this Scio silt loam
14
soil type?
15
A.
(Werth)
16
different things.
17
the soil coloration.
18
vegetation.
19
water.
20
Do you know what those
It could be various
They could be a difference in

They could be a difference in
It could indicate the presence of
Q.
If you look at the upper right
21
area of the map, there appear to be darker -- large
22
dark -- large -- larger dark areas that appear to
23
be ponds or something like that; right?
24
A.
25
Yes.
(Howland)
There are large dark

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1
2

areas, yes.
Q.
The application indicates at page
four, dash, sixteen that the project traverses
agricultural district C.O.L.U. zero one zero;
right?
A.
(Werth)
Q.
And figure four, dash, three
Correct.
shows the project location in relation to Columbia
10
County agricultural district ten as mapped; right?
11
A.
Correct.
12
Q.
As a general characterization,
13
wouldn't the panel agree that the proposed project
14
alignment appears to be located within the mapped
15
agricultural district for at least one-half of the
16
length of the line as mapped at figure four, dash,
17
three?
18
19
24
25
Q.
Maybe even more than half the
length of the line?
22
23
It's certainly a large
percentage.
20
21
A.
A.
to tell.
It could be; it's a little hard
I'd have to check to verify.

Q.
It appears that the proposed
Ghent switching station is located within the
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1
2

mapped agricultural district; correct?
A.
It is.
Q.
Would the setting of the
switching station at the proposed location
result -- well, you actually said that it would
result in the permanent reduction of agricultural
land --
A.
Correct.
10
Q.
-- within that designated
11
district; right?
12
A.
Correct.
13
Q.
And that was a permanent loss
14
15
16
17
of -- I forget the number of acres?

A.
The Ghent switching station is
approximately two acres.

Q.
Okay.
Now, isn't the alternative
18
switching station also located within designated
19
agricultural district lands?
20
A.
It appears to be.
21
Q.
Does the application provide any
22
estimate of the amount of right-of-way length or
23
area within the designated agricultural district?
24
25
A.
It doesn't specify the length or
acreage through the ag district.
But we do have,
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1
2

it looks like, acres of active ag land.
3
4
Q.
And could you tell me where
A.
It's in table four, dash, eight
that --?
5
6
at the top of page four, dash, thirty-eight, and
it's broken down into pasture, hay, and cultivated
crop.
Q.
Within the designated areas of
10
the agricultural district that the proposed line
11
crosses, are there any areas of forestland?
12
13
A.
It does appear that there are
wooded areas within those districts.
14
Q.
Are any of those areas of
15
forestland within agricultural district -- the
16
agricultural district capable of producing or
17
growing primary wood products, such as logs or
18
firewood?
19
20
21
A.
I would assume that if it's
forested, it could be used as firewood or logs.

Q.
Does the facility location
22
identified in the application minimize impacts on
23
designated agricultural districts?
24
25
A.
Agricultural districts are one of
the considerations taken into consideration during
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1
2

routing.
Q.
Now, I think we come to Exhibit
Forty-three, if you'd refer -- that's a response to
D.P.S. Five regarding access roads.
A.
Okay.
Q.
Someone on the panel or someone
We have it.
under the panel's direction prepared this response;
right?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
Can you please read the paragraph
12
13
under response item three?

A.
No permanent access roads will be
14
constructed in active agricultural areas.
15
will utilize equipment maps -- equipment mats for
16
temporary vehicular access during construction.
17
Q.
NYSEG
In order to clarify the record,
18
can you indicate whether any permanent access roads
19
will be constructed in agricultural -- active
20
agricultural areas for this project, including the
21
22
A.
The access road hasn't been
23
designed for the Ghent switching station.
24
don't know the exact location what --.
25
Q.
So we
But it would be a permanent road;

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1
2

correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And wouldn't it be in active
agricultural fields?
A.
There's an existing road there
that could likely be improved to facilitate access
that is not currently in the field.
field boundary and in the woods.
10
Q.
It's along the
Has the Applicant had any direct
11
correspondence with the current owner -- property
12
owner of the land occupied by the proposed Ghent
13
switching station regarding the siting of the
14
project?
15
A.
No.
As previously stated, no
16
correspondence with any of the landowners along the
17
line has happened.
18
Q.
A notice was sent to --?
19
A.
Other than the notice for the
Q.
Is the Ghent switching station
20
application.
21
22
located within an active agricultural field on all
23
sides?
24
25
A.
The northern boundary is along
what appears to be a wooded or scrub shrub area.
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2
3
Q.
So would you access the switching
station from the northern side, then?
A.
That hasn't been determined yet.
Q.
If you could look at Exhibit
Fifty-one, which is a response to D.P.S.
thirty-nine --.
A.
Thirty-nine?
Q.
Yes.
10
A.L.J. STEIN:
11
MR. WERTH:
12
MR. BLOW:
19
This morning with the
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
You
should have a copy of it; that's correct.
17
18
Have we been provided
Department of Agriculture and Markets.
15
16
Yes.
a copy of that?
13
14
Three nine?
MR. WERTH:
BY MR. BLOW:
Okay.
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Someone on the panel or someone
20
under the direction of the panel prepared this
21
response; right?
22
A.
23
I believe so.
A.L.J. STEIN:
It states that it
24
was prepared by Ms. Howland, Mr. Werth, Mr.
25
McKinney, and Brian Cross, so two panel members.
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1
2

BY MR. BLOW:
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Am I correct that earlier this
morning, in response to cross by the Department of
Ag and Markets, you testified that because of
hydric soils on the Summit development property,
that site was ruled out for the proposed Ghent
switching station location?
A.
(Werth)
That was one factor we
10
took into consideration as they're an -- an
11
indicator of wetlands.
12
Q.
And I think you testified earlier
13
that you were -- that NYSEG was contacted in March
14
2011 regarding the use of the property -- Summit
15
property?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
Were the hydric soils -- how were
18
the hydric soils identified?
19
analysis?
20
A.
21
SSURGO database.
22
Q.
Yes.
Was that a desktop
It was out of the N.R.C.S.
After you were contacted by this
23
Summit Development group, did you arrange for a
24
site access to look at the hydric soils?
25
A.
No, we did not.

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Page 475
Q.
Now as used in section four point
two point two of the application, how would you
define the term open space?
5
6
A.
Open space is, basically,
anything that is not currently developed.
Q.
During the route development
process, did the Applicant attempt to reduce
impacts to open space and avoid routing of a line
10
within open space areas?
11
A.
Open space is one consideration
12
that goes into the routing, primarily active open
13
space being parks, things like the fields,
14
sculpture garden at Art OMI, places that are used
15
for recreation and that type of stuff.
16
was taken into consideration.
17
Q.
But yes, it
And what methods did the company
18
use to avoid routing the line in areas of open
19
space?
20
21
A.
We mapped all active open space
areas and treated them as one constraint.
22
Q.
Could you refer to the response
23
to D.P.S. Nine, which is Exhibit Forty-nine, I
24
believe?
25
A.
Yes.
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Page 476
Q.
Regarding preservation of open
space.
prepared this response; right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Would you please read the third
You or someone under your direction
and fourth sentences of the second paragraph?
8
9
A.
The one that starts NYSEG
minimize crossing?
10
A.L.J. STEIN:
Or do you want the
11
sentence beginning siting the facilities along
12
natural borders?
13
MR. METCALFE:
14
with open space, which is the first paragraph of
15
the response?
16
MR. BLOW:
17
MR. METCALFE:
18
MR. BLOW:
BY MR. BLOW:
21
22
23
The --.
Third sentence of
the first paragraph under the heading response.
19
20
Or the one dealing
Just a second, please?
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Starting with siting the
A.
(Werth)
facilities?
Okay.
(Reading)
Siting
24
the facilities along natural borders, such as field
25
and property boundaries, the line avoids bisecting
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Page 477
properties in open space while also balancing
impacts to forest and agricultural resources.
NYSEG minimized crossings of active open space
areas, specifically, Art OMI sculpture park.
6
7
Would you read one more sentence,
A.
(Reading)
please?
8
9
Q.
Although no formal
analysis of effects on open space was performed for
10
this project, consideration of open space was one
11
of the major factors used in developing
12
alternatives for this project.
13
Q.
To clarify, does the proposed
14
line avoid bisecting properties and crossing open
15
space areas, or are such locations minimized in the
16
Applicant's view?
17
A.
We minimize them to the extent
18
practicable.
19
considerations that we took into consideration.
20
That is one of many routing
Q.
So there are portions of the
21
proposed line that bisect properties or cross open
22
space; correct?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Can you explain what is meant by
25
informal analysis, as the term is used in that
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final sentence that you read?
A.
You mean formal analysis?
Q.
Yes.
A.
Open space is something that is
Sorry.
No formal analysis.
very difficult to quantify unless you're speaking
only of active -- active open space areas, such as
parks or recreation areas.
something that we quantified as -- in link through
So there's not
10
open space, or acres of open space, or something
11
like that.
12
that sense, but it was a consideration.
13
So no formal analysis was completed in
Q.
So would you say that
14
consideration of property boundaries and avoidance
15
of bisecting properties was a major factor in
16
developing routing?
17
A.
It was one of many factors.
18
Q.
For those locations where the
19
proposed route is located within areas or open
20
space and/or bisects properties, did the Applicant
21
consider whether the project may conflict with any
22
planned uses for those parcels?
23
A.
24
for planned use.
25
consulted would be the comprehensive plans and
We didn't consult any landowners

The only planned use that we
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1
2
3

zoning maps, that type of stuff.
Q.
So the Applicant didn't contact
the town, inquiring about any permits or planned
uses of those particular parcels; right?
A.
(Ms. Gilstrap)
We did meet with
the -- each of the towns to discuss any planned
development in the area that wouldn't be indicated
or that we wouldn't know of when we were compiling
10
11
all of the constraints for analysis.

Q.
You already mentioned that you
12
didn't contact individual landowners.
Referring
13
back to the response to D.P.S. Nine, which is
14
Exhibit Forty-nine, your answer indicates that
15
siting the proposed Ghent switching station close
16
to the existing National Grid trunk line, trunk
17
fifteen line, is the impact of the extension of
18
this line on open space and other resources was
19
limited; right?
20
A.
(Werth)
21
Q.
Can you please tell us the
Yes.
22
distance of the proposed Ghent switching station
23
is -- what that distance is from line fifteen?
24
25
A.
I believe it's approximately one
point two five miles.
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1
2

Q.
Okay.
Let's see.
Please refer
to page four of the application -- let's see --
where the extension of National Grid's trunk
fifteen is described.
A.
(Howland)
Q.
I've got to figure out which --.
A.
Which exhibit of page four?
Q.
I'm trying to -- just a second.
10
Excuse me.
Maybe we can do it without a specific reference,
11
but -- oh, the -- in the very beginning of the
12
application, page four, which I guess we're calling
13
Exhibit One along the -- the designated --.
14
A.
Okay.
We're there.
15
Q.
Okay.
The extension of National
16
Grid's trunk fifteen is described, indicating that
17
two parallel transmission lines would extend from
18
trunk number fifteen east for approximately four
19
thousand four hundred feet, cross Widow's Creek,
20
turn northeast for approximately two thousand fifty
21
feet, and enter the Ghent switching station; right?
22
A.
(Werth)
23
Q.
So that's how you get the one
Correct.
24
point two four or one point two five miles; right,
25
if you sum those?
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2
3
A.
I believe that would be close to
that, six thousand four hundred fifty feet.
Q.
I think I have maybe one more
question.
I just have to look here.
Maybe a
couple.
were the -- or this afternoon that you were -- that
this was a panel that chose the location of the
Ghent switching station; right?
Now you indicated this morning that you
10
A.
Correct.
11
Q.
And you also chose the
12
alternative location; right?
13
A.
Correct.
14
Q.
Did you study an option to place
15
the Ghent switching -- Ghent switch -- switch
16
station adjacent to or nearly adjacent to National
17
Grid's trunk line, instead?
18
A.
We did not.
19
Q.
Was there any reason why you
20
didn't study a -- putting the line -- putting the
21
station closer to the trunk line?
22
A.
We felt that it was best to try
23
and locate the site near the existing industrial
24
developments.
25
Q.
Okay.
One second.
Can you tell

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us how many streams are crossed by the trunk
fifteen extension?
A.
Give me just a second.
Q.
Figure two, dash, three J might
A.
There's two streams crossed.
Q.
With two lines, so that's four
help.
stream crossings; right?
10
A.
Correct.
11
Q.
Ms. Gilstrap, you mentioned that
12
you had consultations with the towns concerning
13
planned land uses?
14
A.
(Ms. Gilstrap)
15
Q.
Can you tell us do you know,
16
17
18
19
Yes.
approximately, when those consultations occurred?

A.
One second.
I believe it was
early 2011, maybe -- probably spring.

Q.
And did you specifically ask
20
whether any building permits had been issued for
21
the parcel in question?
22
23
A.
That conversation did not
get that specific.
24
25
No.
(Werth)
have specific routes.
At that time, we did not
We were asking the town to

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identify any areas that they knew of planned
developments within the study area.
A.L.J. STEIN:
And what do you --
when you said planned developments, what kind of --
what scale of projects are you talking about?
Major -- major projects?
8
9
MR. WERTH:
We asked them for any
information they have on any type of planned
10
developments from individual homes to subdivisions
11
to major commercial developments, basically,
12
anything that has been filed with the town that is
13
not readily apparent from site visits.
14
A.L.J. STEIN:
15
you with that information, then?
16
there wasn't any or --?
17
MR. WERTH:
And they provided

Or they said
Basically, they told
18
us that there wasn't any planned, that development
19
doesn't really happen in their town -- for the Town
20
of Ghent.
21
A.L.J. STEIN:
22
load growth?
Please proceed.
23
BY MR. BLOW:
(Cont'g.)
24
25
Q.
So where's the
So the Town of Ghent said that
there's no planned development in the town?
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2
3
A.
They did not identify
any planned developments for us, no.
4
5
(Werth)
MR. BLOW:
Your Honor, I have no
further questions.
MR. LUSIGNAN:
Your Honor, with
your permission, we have two follow-up staff
questions.
A.L.J. STEIN:
Go ahead.
10
MR. LUSIGNAN:
Thank you.
11
FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION
12
BY MR. LUSIGNAN:
13
Q.
14
First, is the presence of hydric
soil a requirement for wetlands classification?
15
A.
(Ms. Gilstrap)
According to the
16
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, for an area to be
17
classified as a wetland, it has to have hydric soil
18
indicators.
19
classified as hydric by the N.R.C.S.
20
It doesn't necessarily have to be
Q.
I think you anticipated my next
21
question.
If you can flip to D.P.S. Thirty-nine,
22
which is Exhibit Fifty-one, and the map attached
23
there.
24
A.
(Werth)
25
Q.
You see in the middle of that
Okay.
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map, there's a section designated map wetlands, but
not designated for the presence of hydric soils.
Is that based on the source for the -- how did you
describe it -- the database that you used to
develop that map or can you explain that?
A.
The mapped wetlands on that map
come from a combination of the N.W.I. National
Wetlands Inventory maps and the New York D.E.C.
10
wetland maps.
11
Q.
12
been verified by onsite visits?
13
A.
14
information.
15
But none of this information has
No.
It's all database
It's not field verified.

Q.
Thank you.
16
A.L.J. STEIN:
Is that it?
17
MR. LUSIGNAN:
That's all.
A.L.J. STEIN:
Mr. Metcalfe,
18
Thank
you, Judge.
19
20
would you like to discuss with your witnesses
21
whether you want to conduct any redirect?
22
MR. METCALFE:
23
Honor.
24
that or afterwards?
25
minutes.
I would your
Were you planning on a lunch break before
It could go on for a few
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A.L.J. STEIN:
break for lunch.
off the record.
5
6
It's one twenty-five, so we'll go
(A luncheon recess was taken at

1:22 p.m.) *5.
7
8
So why don't we
A.L.J. STEIN:
So, Mr. Metcalfe,
is there redirect for this panel?
MR. BLOW:
Your Honor, if I
10
might, I would like to ask one follow-up question
11
before redirect, if that's possible, on the access
12
road because so many questions have been asked on
13
that.
14
road into the Ghent switching station.
And, there's a figure that shows the access
15
A.L.J. STEIN:
16
17
Go ahead.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. BLOW:
18
(Cont'g.)
Q.
If you look at figure 3-5 in
19
response to deficiency, it's the first deficiency
20
response of deficiency response twelve.
21
22
Twelve -- is it twelve B?
B.
Figure -- Figure 3-5.
23
24
25
Twelve
Do you have that?

A.
(Howland)
We have it but would
like to look at the full size because it's kind of
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1
2

small.
Okay.
Q.
And that shows the access road
into the Ghent switching station going through the
active agricultural field, right?
6
7
A.
And, in fact, that
was something we were discussing at break.
8
9
Yes, it does.
We had looked at possible access

roads coming into the switching station on the
10
northeast corner.
11
which wouldn't cross at the back fields.
12
where we looking at that and I feel I was
13
unnecessarily restricken our ability to make the
14
shortest path into the substation or perhaps the
15
most viable option.
16
That's what we were looking at,

However,
So, there will be probably fifty
17
feet of access road on ag lands.
18
it's a possibility.
19
the northeast corner, but -- if I just said that it
20
would be restricting us where we may not want that
21
restriction.
22
23
Q.
We still could be looking out
How -- how long would this
road -- access road be?
24
25
Well, there --
A.
(Werth)
The one that's shown on
that map?
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Page 488
Q.
Yes.
A.
head.
I can try and scale it off the map.
It would only be approximately
fifty feet in the ag field though because that
follows the existing access road into the field
that goes through the -- through the trees.
total length appears to be approximately five
10
hundred feet.
11
12
The
Q.
And fifty you said -- you're
confirming is in the farm field?
13
A.
(Howland)
That's the distance
14
between the -- the setback where we had to move the
15
switching station out to meet the town's set back
16
regulations.
17
across the ag field, in that location
18
approximately.
And, so, that fifty feet would be
19
20
A.L.J. STEIN:
questions?
21
22
MR. BLOW:
for your indulgence.
23
24
Do you have other
Thank you, your Honor,
Thank you.
A.L.J. STEIN:
No problem.
Mr.
Metcalf, from redirect?
25
MR. METCALFE:
Yes, I have
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1
2
3

redirect, your Honor.
Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. METCALFE:
Q.
My -- I call the panel's
attention to Exhibit Forty-eight which you had seen
earlier today, the freshwater wetlands regulation
guidelines on compensatory mitigation.
It's D.E.C.'s guidelines.
10
A.
(Howland)
11
Q.
Your -- you had testified earlier
12
Yes.
that you're familiar with these guidelines?
13
A.
(Ms. Gilstrap)
14
Q.
You had also testified earlier
Yes.
15
that the -- when Mr. Blow had asked about the New
16
York State freshwater wetland scaling regulations
17
or weighing standards, those regulations, there was
18
some testimony that suggested you weren't aware of
19
those regulations by the citation to those
20
regulations Part 663 of -- of the Department of
21
Environmental Conservation's regulations.
22
Whether or not you know them
23
by -- by the citation number, are you familiar with
24
the D.E.C. wetland weighing standards for
25
freshwater wetlands?
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Page 490
Howland/Gilstrap/Werth - Redirect - Metcalfe
A.
Yes.
Q.
Are they referred to multiple
times in Exhibit Forty-eight?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
And you're familiar with
the fact that they're applied in determining which
wetlands can be crossed and the degree of
importance or sensitivity of different classes of
10
wetlands?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
And you were aware of that at the
13
time the application was being drafted and
14
prepared?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Did you apply those weighing
17
standards to rate the wetlands involved with this
18
right-of-way?
19
A.
Yes.
The D.E.C. wetlands that
20
we've identified within the project corridor --.
21
A.L.J. STEIN:
22
Please use the
microphone.
23
MS. GILSTRAP:
The D.E.C.
24
wetlands that we've identified in the project
25
corridor are discussed in the application along
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Page 491
with their class designations.
BY MR. METCALFE:
Q.
(Cont'g.)
Okay.
Thank you.
Mr. Werth, can
you explain what direction NYSEG gave you in your
process of selecting alternative sites for the
proposed location of the Ghent switching station
for this project?
A.
(Werth)
Yes, we were directed to
10
identify sites for the switching station near where
11
the trunk fifteen line is in its closest proximity
12
to the nine eighty-four line, thus limiting the
13
total length of new right-of-way for both extension
14
of the trunk fifteen and circuit seven twenty-six.
15
And also siting it within NYSEG's service
16
territory.
17
Q.
Okay.
Also regarding the -- the
18
proposed Ghent switching station, I'd like to
19
follow-up on your answer as to the -- the area
20
between the eastern fence line of the -- what would
21
be the site of the proposed station and the eastern
22
property line, where you had stated earlier that
23
depending on the machinery used by the farmer it
24
may not be useful for agriculture function, the
25
particular corridor between the fence line and the
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1
2

property line.
Has NYSEG precluded the
possibility of working with the landowner and the
relevant state agencies such as D.P.S. and Ag and
Markets to minimize the landowners -- the impact on
the landowner for permanent loss of this ag land or
to compensate the landowner?
A.
No.
That has not been precluded.
10
If -- if the landowner needed more land to get the
11
equipment in there it's possible that the switching
12
station site should -- could be shifted to the west
13
to allow for equipment to access that -- that strip
14
of land or compensate the landowner for the loss
15
of -- of the agricultural function of that land.
16
Q.
And, Ms. Howland, can you ex --
17
explain the -- the process or the regulatory
18
oversight in very general terms that is present
19
after an Article Seven certificate is issued, and
20
assuming once it's issued for this project what
21
sort of oversight restrictions would be applicable
22
at -- or is it the case that once a certificate is
23
issued NYSEG has unbridled freedom to place access
24
roads where they wish and marshaling yards and so
25
forth?
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Page 493
A.
(Howland)
No.
NYSEG certainly
won't have unbridled ability to place access roads
or staging areas where it wishes.
We look -- the next phase is that
environmental management and construction phase and
in that part we will go out and have people walk
the entire right-of-way and do the required -- will
be doing field delineations for wetlands, looking
10
for where a threatened endanger species we might
11
not have picked up or been notified about.
12
We will also hire an agricultural
13
specialist that will work with the farmers on the
14
placement of the struc -- on the utility poles so
15
that -- to minimize the impact to the farmlands.
16
And all this will then be
17
presented back again to the agency for their review
18
and approval.
19
of a back and forth on, you know, tweaking things,
20
you know, working with D.E.C. and how if a stream
21
has to be crossed what methods going to be best for
22
that stream.
And I expect it will be a little bit
23
Working with the agencies on
24
timing, if there's certain restrictions on when we
25
could cross those streams or perhaps when we could
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2

do other activities on the right-of-way.
And then even at that, when we
have the environmental management construction plan
approved, we are still not at liberty to go.
will have numerous inspectors on the site.
envision D.P.S. staff will be out there probably
almost weekly or if not more.
We
We
Also, we will have to hire a
10
full-time environmental monitor that will have
11
oversight for the project.
12
agricultural monitor onsite during the project.
13
by no means are we just free to go out and do
14
whatever once we get the certificate.
15
continual oversight through the preparation and
16
through the construction, and then even long-term
17
D.P.S. staff will still have some -- have oversight
18
over this line.
19
We will also have an

So
We'll have
And any changes or activities
20
associated with the line will have to be approved
21
through any *E.M.N.C.P. amendment process or a
22
change process.
23
Q.
And all of that is applicable to
24
things like access roads and lay-down areas,
25
marshaling yards?
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Page 495
A.
Correct.
Before we propose any
access road or whatever, we will have to go out and
do the wetlands investigations, do archeological
surveys.
was brought up.
go clear cut an area for staging area.
And as far as staging areas, I know that
8
9
We, you know, we're not going to
There's areas that might be

available.
NYSEG has a Chatham service center that
10
has probably room for, you know, placement of the
11
poles until we're ready to use it.
12
The nearby industrial site may
13
have areas where we could, you know, set temporary
14
construction trailers.
15
you know, there are options available to us.
16
just haven't finalized them or, you know, there may
17
be additional options available too.
18
just when we finally get people on the ground and
19
know where the best placement of these facilities
20
should be.
21
22
Q.
We
We -- it's
Thank you very much.
have no further questions.
23
24
Okay.
So it -- there are other,
A.L.J. STEIN:
Thank you.
Is
there any other recross from parties?
25
MR. HURST:
Just briefly, Judge.

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Page 496
A.L.J. STEIN:
3
4
Very briefly.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. HURST:
Q.
Okay.
Just, panel, following up
on Mr. Metcalfe's questioning just now and based on
any direct testimony here this morning.
8
9
Ms. Howland, in response to Mr.

Blow's question I think that he had asked you about
10
temporary structures in streams and your answer
11
was, I believe, you're not sure whether there would
12
be or not and that that would be something
13
dependent on final engineering.
14
15
Do you remember your testimony on

that regard?
16
MR. METCALFE:
I -- I object.
17
That was not within the scope of the re -- the
18
redirect.
19
A.L.J. STEIN:
I'm going to limit
20
this to issues that were pursued on redirect.
21
MR. HURST:
22
Judge, if I might make a proffer, it's actually
23
directly pertinent to the E.M.N.P.C. discussion
24
that Ms. Howland just provided.
25
A.L.J. STEIN:
It -- it's actually,
Okay.
Well, you
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2
Howland/Gilstrap/Werth - Recross - Hurst

can connect it.
MR. HURST:
Well, let me -- let
me just sort of fast forward then to the -- to the
conclusion.
BY MR. HURST:
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Panel, isn't it true based on
your responses to Mr. Metcalfe's redirect that
there remain in this project a series of variables
10
or contingencies that need to be worked out in the
11
final engineering stage?
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
A.
(Howland)
Yes, there are details
that need to be worked out.

Q.
And those include such things as
the location of access roads, correct?

A.
Yes.
Final access road placement
will be in the E.M.N.C.P. phase.

Q.
And those actually include things
19
such as whether or not poles will be in streams or
20
outside of streams, right?
21
22
A.
No.
We've already testified that
we do not expect to have poles placed in streams.
23
Q.
And is it --?
24
A.
There would be no reason to place
25
a pole in a stream.
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Page 498
Q.
Is it possible that in the final
engineering of the project the engineers may view
that differently than this panel was?
A.
No.
Q.
And so are you representing right
now that under no set of circumstances will a
structure be placed in a stream for this project?
A.
I can't envision any set of
10
circumstances where we would place a utility pole
11
in a stream which would be subject to erosion and
12
other environmental impacts.
13
Q.
And based on the range of
14
variables that have been discussed with respect to
15
temporary structures and streams, ultimate pole
16
locations, ultimate pole designs, access roads,
17
stripping and stockpile of soils at the switching
18
station site, and even endangered species, is it
19
the company's testimony that those matters will be
20
finally determined post certification if a
21
certificate is issued?
22
A.
You list a long set of items.
23
don't believe all of them will be determined post
24
certificate.
25
Q.
Okay.
Let's start with

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2

endangered species.
Was it your testimony, Ms.
Howland, that field studies for endangered species
would occur during the E.M.N.C.P. phase?
6
7
A.
We've already done some studies
along where we had the existing right-of-way.
8
9
Additional studies will be done

after certificate issuance or unless we propose to
10
gain access to the site prior.
11
proposing?
12
Q.
Is that what you're
Ms. Howland, is it possible that
13
based on the final engineering of the project, the
14
project may look different than it does in the
15
application today?
16
A.
If the project looks different we
17
will all have to come back for a change to the
18
certificate and everyone would be well aware of
19
that.
20
We will have several constraints
21
within the certificate that this is the route with
22
very little -- there will be -- could be some minor
23
tweaks as -- but the route is the route.
24
25
Q.
And since we have a range of
variables that may occur in the final engineering
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phase, if hypothetically one was tasked with
identifying potential environmental impacts to
qualify for a certificate, would it be your opinion
that sound environmental assessment principles
require you to assess the worst-case scenario?
A.
worst-case scenario is applied?
very vague question.
10
11
Q.
I guess whose definition of
Okay.
You're asking a
Let's -- let's try to
rephrase.
12
If, for example, it were to turn
13
out in the final engineering stage that access
14
roads -- that there were no existing access roads
15
that could be used and new permanent access roads
16
would need to be constructed.
17
Do you understand that part of my
18
question so far?
19
A.
Very clearly, yes.
20
Q.
Okay.
And so if you were -- and
21
somebody said to you, Ms. Howland, I want you to go
22
out and I want you to identify for me all of the
23
potential environmental impacts of this particular
24
project and the range of impacts for access roads
25
could be use of preexisting roads or the
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Page 501
construction of new roads, which of those two
options if they were both possibilities would you
think sound environmental assessment principles
required you to analyze?
A.
We're going to go out and look at
if we were to put an access road or existing access
roads, we will go out and do the field
delineations.
10
11
Q.
And, Ms. Howland, might -- maybe
you didn't understand my question.
12
I'm -- I'm actually not talking
13
about what you'll do after certification.
14
asking you just independently if you've got a -- a
15
project that has a range of possible impacts from
16
fairly minimal to fairly significant, but you don't
17
have a final design that tells you which of those
18
impacts will actually occur, is it your opinion
19
that sound environmental assessment principles
20
would require you to assess the worst-case scenario
21
in those variables as opposed to the minimal-impact
22
scenario?
23
24
25
I'm
A.
We will identify potential
Q.
And, well, isn't it the case that
impacts.
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1
2

the application in this case --?
3
4
A.L.J. STEIN:
question has been asked and answered.
MR. HURST:
another question.
BY MR. HURST:
8
9
I think this
Yeah, Judge, I just
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Isn't it the case, Ms. Howland,
that the application in this case adopts the
10
assumption that the minimally-intrusive methods
11
will be adopted in the final-design phase?
12
13
A.
We're not proposing using minimal
methods --
14
MR. HURST:
15
A.
Your Honor --
-- construction of the --.
16
MR. HURST:
17
be directed to answer the question that's asked
18
please.
19
20
-- could the witness
MS. HOWLAND:
I'm confused with
A.L.J. STEIN:
I think you need
what he's asking.
21
22
to clarify your question and possibly make it
23
slightly less conceptual.
24
25
MR. HURST:
BY MR. HURST:
Sure.
(Cont'g.)
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Page 503
Q.
Ms. Howland, the application in
this case proceeds on the assumption that poles
will not be -- that structures will not be
installed in streams or wetlands, correct?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
The application in this case, Ms.
Howland, proceeds on the assumption that access
roads will utilize preexisting rights-of-way, is
10
that correct?
11
12
A.
We do not assume all access roads
will use preexisting rights-of-way.
13
Q.
And, so, there's a possibility
14
that new access roads will need to be constructed,
15
correct?
16
A.
That is correct.
17
Q.
Does the application analyze the
18
potential environmental impacts of the construction
19
of new permanent access roads in areas that are not
20
otherwise now covered by existing rights-of-way?
21
22
A.
No, because some of those are not
defined yet.
23
24
MR. HURST:
Judge.
No more questions,
Thank you.
25
A.L.J. STEIN:
Thank you.
I
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Page 504
believe this concludes the questioning for this
panel.
MR. GREENBERG:
Judge, may I
just -- just to clarify one point, if I may?
not a question as much it's just -- there was
testimony previously by this panel that made
reference to the town in connection with both the
town's comprehensive plan, as well as speaking with
10
It's
the town regarding building permits, et cetera.
11
If we could just clarify for the
12
record that that town is I assume the town of
13
Ghent.
14
MR. WERTH:
15
towns' comprehensive plans when we met with the
16
towns as well, so that includes Stockport, Ghent
17
and Chatham and Kinderhook.
18
19
MR. GREENBERG:
And the -- so
that was their growth as well?
20
21
We reviewed all
MR. METCALFE:
What was their
growth?
22
MR. GREENBERG:
23
their building, development, future planning was.
24
I mean, that wasn't my question.
25
mainly just to clarify the record, but --.
In terms of what
My question was
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Page 505
A.L.J. STEIN:
You're asking --.
MR. METCALFE:
You mean, what --
what town -- what town or towns were the subject of
the discussions, the testimony earlier about
limited or no -- no development plan?
MR. GREENBERG:
MR. METCALFE:
towns was it?
Correct.
Which town or
If I could pose that question.
10
A.L.J. STEIN:
11
12
BY MR. METCALFE:
13
Q.
Thank you.
(Cont'g.)
Was it just down of Ghent or
14
another town or multiple towns that you met with to
15
determine or where you learned from town
16
representatives that they were planning no
17
development?
18
A.
(Werth)
We met with all of the
19
towns to discuss future development with them.
20
town of Ghent made the specific comment that they
21
had no -- no future development.
22
Q.
Okay.
Thank you.
23
A.L.J. STEIN:
Thank you.
24
MR. LUSIGNAN:
Your Honor --
25
A.L.J. STEIN:
Yes.
The
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Page 506
2
3
MR. LUSIGNAN:
You said two maybe
three questions for recross?
A.L.J. STEIN:
Quickly.
MR. LUSIGNAN:
Very quickly.
A.L.J. STEIN:
Have to let these
poor people go.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. LUSIGNAN:
10
Q.
You mentioned on redirect the
11
possibility of moving this -- the switching station
12
to the west to increase the farmable land there.
13
Do you actually know whether
14
you're moving switching station to the west would
15
increase farmable land in that field?
16
A.
(Werth)
We don't.
We would need
17
to speak with the landowner to find out what their
18
equipment size is and whether that fifty feet to
19
the east is -- will remain viable farmland to them
20
or if they would prefer that the -- that it be
21
widened to say a hundred feet or whatever --
22
whatever width would allow them to continue to use
23
that as active agricultural land.
24
25
Q.
In fact, moving it to the west
could potentially exacerbate the problem by
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Page 507
Howland/Gilstrap/Werth - Recross - Lusignan
creating two small fields that couldn't really be
farmed and as well as a longer access road.
A.
It could, but that would be
something that would have to be determined through
consultation with the landowner.
7
8
Q.
Okay.
Thank you.
That's all I
have.
A.L.J. STEIN:
Can I assume we
10
have no more questions for this panel?
11
thank you very much for your very exhaustive
12
testimony over the last two days.
13
You're excused.
14
MR. METCALFE:
Thank -- excuse
me.
17
18
Mr. Metcalfe,
would you like to call your next witness?
15
16
I'd like to
Thank you, your Honor.
NYSEG's
next witness is James Crosier.
19
A.L.J. STEIN:
Sorry.
Okay.
Would you
20
please rise?
You just sat down.
21
raise your right hand and repeat after me.
22
hereby affirm.
23
MR. CROSIER:
24
A.L.J. STEIN:
25
Please
I
I hereby affirm.
That the testimony
I will give today.
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Page 508
Howland/Gilstrap/Werth - Recross - Lusignan
2
3
MR. CROSIER:
I will give today.
4
5
A.L.J. STEIN:
MR. CROSIER:
Is the truth, the
whole truth and nothing but the truth.
8
9
Is the truth, the
6
7
That the testimony
A.L.J. STEIN:
much.
Thank you very
You may be seated.
10
MR. CROSIER:
11
Thank you.
JAMES CROSIER; Sworn.
12
A.L.J. STEIN:
13
Ghent for twenty minutes followed by D.P.S. staff
14
for twenty minutes and I'm going to hold you to
15
those times.
16
MR. HURST:
I have Protect
Thank you, your
17
Honor.
You'll be relieved to know I'll be
18
significantly less than that, so I think we're in
19
good shape.
20
21
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. HURST:
22
Q.
Good afternoon, Mr. Crosier.
24
A.
Good afternoon.
25
Q.
Mr. Crosier, could you please get
23
How
are you?
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Page 509
Crosier - Cross - Hurst
out in front of you attachment six to your
deficiency response number six please of the
company?
deficiency letter response of NYSEG.
And I believe that was from the second
A.
I'm unfamiliar so somebody help
Q.
Oh, are we going to have --?
A.
Because it doesn't have my name
10
11
me out here.
on it at all, that's why -- the other one?

Q.
Mr. Crosier, in particular, if I
12
could ask you please to turn to page twenty-one and
13
for the record the document is entitled
14
'Long-Range, Right-of-way Management Plan for the
15
NYSEG and RG&E Electric Transmission System', dated
16
September 30th, 2011.
17
Are you with me, Mr. Crosier?
18
A.
I am.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
And you see the subheading
conventional stem foliar technique?
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
Are you familiar with that
23
technique, Mr. Crosier?
24
A.
I am.
25
Q.
And am I correct in understanding
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Page 510
that that is a technique for the application of
herbicides from a truck or A.T.V. mounted spray-gun
system?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Okay.
And, Mr. Crosier, if you
could turn please to page twenty-two of the same
document.
Actually it -- it -- it begins on
10
twenty-one and then rolls over to twenty-two.
Do
11
you see the section that states in addition the
12
following sites are not treated with the
13
conventional stem-foliar technique and then running
14
over to page twenty-two?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
And do you see the second bullet
17
point that says within one hundred feet of a
18
potable water supply?
19
A.
Yes.
20
A.L.J. STEIN:
Excuse me.
21
Crosier, you need to take that microphone and move
22
it to about three inches from your mouth.
23
THE WITNESS:
24
A.L.J. STEIN:
25
change chairs because if -- if you're not speaking
Okay.
Mr.
Sorry.
Or move your -- or
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Page 511
directly into it the reporter really won't pick it
up on the tape.
THE WITNESS:
A.L.J. STEIN:
Thank you.
BY MR. HURST:
8
9
10
11
12
I'll try.
That's great.
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Mr. Crosier, why is it that the
stem-foliar technique is not to be used within a

hundred feet of a potable water supply?
A.
Because the -- we want to be
certain that the water supply is protected.
13
Q.
Protected from what exactly?
14
A.
Protected from any possibility
15
that the herbicide would contaminate --.
16
Q.
The water supply?
17
A.
That's why the spec was written.
18
Q.
So the spec was written because
19
of the possibility that use of the stem-foliar
20
technique within a hundred feet of a potable water
21
supply could potentially contaminate that supply?
22
23
24
25
A.
No.
It's such that there would
be no possibility of that.
Q.
There would be no possibility of
contaminating the potable water supply if you use
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Page 512
the technique more than a hundred feet away from
it, is that your testimony?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And in the next bullet point, Mr.
Crosier, it states that the stem-foliar technique
will not be used within any orchard, nursery or
crop planting, do you see that bullet point?
A.
I do.
10
Q.
And, Mr. Crosier, just
11
hypothetically, if the right-of-way maintenance
12
team were out there during a season when a
13
particular crop -- crop was not actually planted,
14
would that field still fall within the scope of
15
this exception or does it need to be actively
16
planted at the time of the application?
17
18
19
A.
No, it would still fall in this
Q.
Okay.
exception.
And so the statement crop
20
planting means fields that are either actively --
21
where crops are actively growing or -- or fields
22
that might otherwise be used to grow crops, is that
23
your testimony?
24
25
A.
It would have to be an active
agriculture meaning that they were planning on
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Page 513
1
2

crops.
3
4
Q.
And would that -- would that
include fields that were used to grow hay?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And in the next bullet, Mr.
Crosier, it states that the stem-foliar technique
should not be used within ten feet of a fence which
encloses an active pasture.
10
Do you see that bullet
point that I'm referring to?
11
A.
I do.
12
Q.
I guess, just help me understand
13
the -- the reference to the fence.
14
transmission line right-of-way is actually cutting
15
through an active pasture but there's no fence
16
nearby, would that prohibition still apply?
17
18
19
If a
A.
I -- I don't understand your
Q.
Again, I'm -- I'm trying to
question.
20
understand what the significance is of being within
21
ten feet of a fence which encloses an active
22
pasture, and my question is whether the prohibition
23
against use of the stem-foliar technique would
24
apply where the right-of-way is actually in an
25
active pasture as opposed to near a fence enclosing
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Page 514
1
2

an active pasture.
A.
Yes, they wouldn't use them.
Q.
And, Mr. Crosier, in terms of
application of the right-of-way management plan, is
there any distinction drawn and, for example,
hypothetically if the transmission line
right-of-way were to come within say a hundred and
fifty feet of a residence, does the long-range,
10
right-of-way management plan speak to that issue at
11
all or make any exception or accommodation for the
12
residential use?
13
A.
The -- we follow the D.E.C.
14
guidelines and we hire -- we hire certified
15
applicators and they apply according to the D.E.C.
16
guidelines notification.
17
Q.
And is there some standard that
18
you use to determine when it's time to bring in a
19
certified applicator to make the application?
20
21
22
A.
It's always a certified
Q.
Right.
applicator.
Maybe I misunderstood
23
your response then.
24
that you just testified to one that applies when
25
the right-of-way is adjacent to residential
And so is -- is the process
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Page 515
1
2

properties or one that applies across the board?
3
4
A.
I still don't understand what
you're asking me.
Q.
Sure.
I -- I -- I had asked you
whether the right-of-way made any provision for
instances where -- where the -- the long --
long-range, right-of-way management plan made any
provisions in instances where the transmission line
10
right-of-way was within a hundred and fifty feet of
11
a residence.
Do you understand that part?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
Okay.
And so the question
14
then -- and -- and so what is the answer to that
15
question?
16
Does -- does the long-range,
17
right-of-way management plan make any distinction
18
in that instance?
19
A.
We don't foliar spray that close.
20
Q.
Is that something that you're
21
pulling out of -- the long-range, right-of-way
22
management plan or is that just something that
23
you're testifying to based on your knowledge of the
24
company's practices?
25
A.
I can't cite a specific out of

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Page 516
memory, a paragraph, a -- in this long-range
management plan.
Q.
And so then we're going to just
need to unbundle your testimony a little bit.
You -- I believe your response
was we don't spray that close.
standards do you think apply when the right-of-way
actually traverses a residential property?
10
Just tell me what
What herbicide application
11
standards apply when the right-of-way traverses
12
that close to residential property?
13
14
15
A.
The New York State D.E.C. law
Q.
Okay.
applies.
And, so, it's your
16
testimony as I understand it that NYSEG has no
17
policy that makes accommodation for herbicide
18
applications within a hundred fifty feet of
19
residences apart from preexisting state law?
20
A.
Could you clarify that for me?
21
Q.
Withdrawn.
22
Mr. Crosier, does the long-range,
23
right-of-way management plan make any provision or
24
accommodation for instances where the right-of-way
25
may traverse an organic farming operation?
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Page 517
A.
Yes.
Q.
And -- and that's in the plan
that's in front of you now as part of deficiency
response six?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Can you direct me to that
provision, please?
A.
No.
10
Q.
Why is it that you're unable to
A.
I'm not -- this is two hundred
11
do that?
12
13
and some pages.
14
Q.
I don't have it memorized.

Why don't you tell us in the
15
interest of time in sum and in substance what
16
accommodations are made for instances where the
17
right-of-way might traverse an organic farm?
18
A.
We -- we follow the D.E.C.
19
guidelines and we don't put any chemical down
20
without following the D.E.C. guidelines.
21
Q.
Mr. Crosier, are you familiar
22
with the concept of integrated vegetation
23
management?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Is it your opinion, Mr. Crosier,
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Page 518
that the *long-range, right-of-way management plan
qualifies as an integrated vegetation management
plan?
A.
6
7
MR. HURST:
A.L.J. STEIN:
12
Thank you.
For
staff?
10
11
Nothing further,
Judge.
8
9
Yes.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. BLOW:
Q.
I -- I think we're in the same
13
ballpark here in response to deficiency number six.
14
Look at page eleven.
15
The applicant provided a
16
statement -- tell me if you got that and then I
17
can -- page eleven.
18
A.
I start on page fifteen here.
19
MR. METCALFE:
20
clarification on the -- the materials Mr. Crosier
21
has, the deficiency response number six only
22
provides excerpts from the right-of-way management
23
program -- plan rather than the entirety of it.
24
there are portions that are not within that
25
response, therefore, not at the moment on the
Just for
So
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Page 519
Crosier - Cross - Blow
record.
BY MR. BLOW:
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Immediately after a deficiency
number six tab.
A.
Okay.
Q.
There's a response to the -- to
the deficiency.
A.
Okay.
10
Q.
All right.
11
I understand now.
And that's page
eleven, right?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
Okay.
And the statement is:
The
14
company does not intend to apply herbicides in the
15
construction of the proposed facility, right?
16
A.
Yeah.
17
Q.
Your testimony at page C.W. 1,
18
line six states that your title is manager of
19
vegetation management transmission for Iberdrola
20
U.S.A., correct?
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
And at page C.W. 1 lines sixteen
23
through twenty-two your testimony indicates that
24
you have provided advice to NYSEG on the long-range
25
management plan and how it applies to transmission
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Page 520
line maintenance on the Columbia County
transmission project, is that correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Now, your testimony was provided
in response to application deficiency number six,
is that correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And along with your testimony you
10
provided two documents provided as attachment six
11
that include pages fifteen through twenty-eight of
12
the long-range, right-of-way management plan for
13
the NYSEG and RG&E electric transmission system
14
dated September 30, 2011, is that correct?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
And you also provided as part of
17
attachment six, pages thirteen through twenty-six
18
of the detailed specification for transmission
19
right-of-way vegetation maintenance, document
20
F.O.R. 2012, is that correct?
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
These two attachments appear to
23
be excerpts from longer documents.
24
25
Can you please explain whether

the original documents are more extensive than
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Page 521
1
2

these excerpts?
A.
They are.
Q.
And would you explain why you
provided only segments or excerpts of the original
documents?
7
8
A.
We believed they answered the
Q.
On the cover page of these
question.
9
10
documents -- on the cover page of these document
11
excerpts there is a signature of Weston J. Davis
12
who is identified there as manager, vegetation
13
management operations.
14
Mr. Davis?
Did you work with or for
15
A.
I work for Mr. Davis.
16
Q.
As part of your job
17
responsibility -- as -- as part of your job
18
responsibilities are you involved with
19
transmission-line construction activities?
20
A.
No.
21
Q.
Are you familiar with clearing of
22
forest vegetation or on newly-established electric
23
transmission facility right-of-ways?
24
25
A.
I -- I get them after they're
constructed and I do maintenance thereafter.
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Page 522
Q.
So -- so you're not familiar with
new -- new construction of electric transmission
lines?
5
6
A.
No.
I'm mainly involved in
Q.
Yet you testified herbicides
maintenance.
7
8
weren't going to be applied during construction,
right?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
So, you don't -- you don't know
12
the procedures that would be established -- that
13
would be used to -- to control vegetation during
14
right-of-way clearing, right?
15
A.
They would be very similar to
Q.
Would they include cutting
16
17
18
maintenance.
tall-growing vegetation?
19
A.
Define tall.
20
Q.
Capable of reaching the
21
wire-security zone?
22
A.
And what was your question?
23
Q.
Would -- would these procedures
24
that you use -- would use for the right-of-way
25
clearing would they involve -- might they involve
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1
2

cutting tall-growing vegetation?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Might they involve treating
stumps of cut hardwood?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Might they involve treating
species with herbicides to prevent or minimize
resprouting?
10
A.
What kind of treating?
11
Q.
Treating with herbicides.
I mean
12
there are a lot of techniques for treating with
13
herbicides, right?
14
15
A.
Agreed.
So what are those
technique -- what technique are you referring to?
16
Q.
Well, you'll -- go -- go through
17
a list for me how -- how would you treat a -- treat
18
a species with herbicides to prevent or minimize
19
resprouting?
20
21
22
23
24
25
A.
Usually it would be a cut surface
Q.
What -- and what does that mean?
application.
How would that be done?

A.
The stump is cut and immediately
afterward a herbicide is applied for the *cambium
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Page 524
1
2

area to keep it from resprouting.
Q.
Would that -- would that be cut
and -- cut-and-stump treatment?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Now if you look to -- at the
initial application volume at page four dash
forty-four.
A.
Where?
10
Q.
In the application at Exhibit
11
Four, page four dash forty-four.
12
Let me know when you have that.
13
A.
I'm there.
14
Q.
Okay.
In the second complete
15
paragraph starting with the phrase mechanical- or
16
chemical-clearing methods, do you have that?
17
A.
I do.
18
Q.
Will you please read the first
19
20
three sentences of that paragraph?

A.
Mechanical- or chemical-spraying
21
methods or a combination of both will be used for
22
removal of unwanted vegetation.
23
Chemical control methods will
24
include ground applications of New York State
25
approved herbicides to target vegetation species.
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Page 525
The site-specific selection of vegetation
management techniques will be based on the
community, type and vegetation structure and
density.
Q.
So, do you agree that the company
contemplated the potential use of herbicides when
the application was initially developed for
construction?
10
11
12
A.
It's a best practice to put down
chemical when you -- when you cut the stump.

Q.
But, then, is it your testimony
13
that you subsequently decided not to pursue the use
14
of herbicides?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Could you define what the
17
application means by ground applications of New
18
York State approved herbicides?
19
MR. METCALFE:
20
I'm going to
object, your Honor.
21
The witness is not sponsoring
22
Exhibit Four and I think Mr. Blow's line of
23
questioning involves that exhibit.
24
A.L.J. STEIN:
25
MR. BLOW:
I'll sustain it.
Your Honor, this -800.523.7887
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Page 526
this witness was offered as the witness to testify
concerning herbicides.
MR. METCALFE:
the witness to testify concerning the response for
deficiency number six.
MR. BLOW:
He was offered as
And are you telling me
that I passed up my opportunity to -- to discuss
with some other panel the application of
10
herbicides?
11
12
MR. METCALFE:
I would sure like
not to tell you that.
13
Perhaps arrangements can be made
14
in short order if you have a line of questioning
15
involving herbicides and Exhibit Four.
16
MR. BLOW:
It just seems like
17
there's a -- a disconnect between what the -- the
18
application in Exhibit Four says and what Mr.
19
Crosier's saying and I have a few questions along
20
that line.
21
A.L.J. STEIN:
It did seem to me
22
that Mr. -- I believe Mr. Crosier just answered
23
that there was a change in position from the time
24
of the application to the time of the deficiency
25
response or at least that they represent a
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1
2

different conclusion.
MR. BLOW:
Right.
And it seems
like I ought to have the opportunity and be
permitted to explore that change of position.
6
7
THE WITNESS:
I filed another
response to this somewhere.
MR. METCALFE:
most recent -- response would have been one of the
10
deficiency responses?
11
12
THE WITNESS:
Yeah, thirty-five,
thirty-six.
13
14
That would be the
MR. METCALFE:
I'm sorry.
Information request response number.
15
A.L.J. STEIN:
Mr. Metcalfe,
16
would you object to having Mr. Crosier just respond
17
to some more questioning on either the
18
inconsistency or the change of position from the
19
application position to that -- the -- in
20
deficiency response six, just to explain that?
21
MR. BLOW:
We -- we might be able
22
to cut through this a little bit, your Honor, if I
23
think Mr. Metcalfe maybe because I was reading
24
slowly objected in the middle of my question, so if
25
I could just ask.
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1
2
3

BY MR. BLOW:
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Could you -- could you
distinguish between ground applications of New York
State approved herbicides, distinguish that from
aerial applications?
7
8
9
A.
We -- we do not do any aerial
application of herbicides.
Q.
So ground -- what -- what do
10
ground applications of New York State approved
11
herbicides mean?
12
A.
13
14
It's applied by a person walking
on the ground or a vehicle traversing the ground.

Q.
Are you -- Mr. Crosier, are you
15
familiar with hardwood tree species encountered in
16
the Columbia County project area?
17
A.
I'm familiar with hardwoods in
18
New York State.
19
species there that I'm not familiar with.
20
Q.
There may be some localized
Is the list of potentially
21
tall-growing trees in the long-range, right-of-way
22
vegetation management plan applicable to the
23
project area would you say?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Are there any hardwood tree
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Page 529
species that are problematic in terms of sprouting
from stump crowns or from root suckers following
cutting of the -- of the main tree stem?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Can you tell us what these
species might be, problematic species as you said?
8
9
10
A.
representative.
I can give you a couple ren -By no means is it an all-inclusive
list.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
A.
*Locusts, sumac, tree of heaven,
Q.
And you expect you might have
13
Atlantis.
14
15
encountered these on this right-of-way, right?
16
A.
There is that possibility.
17
Q.
How -- how tall can stump or root
18
sprouts of these species we're talking about grow
19
in one or two growing seasons?
20
A.
That's extremely variable.
21
Q.
Would you say two to six feet or
22
even more depending on the age and the site and the
23
season?
24
25
A.
Depending on specie, age, site,
season, two to six feet probably isn't
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1
2

unreasonable.
Q.
Since NYSEG is proposing not to
use herbicides during initial right-of-way
clearing, how does the company propose to control
sprouting of stumps and suckering of roots during
construction and the following growing season?
8
9
A.
We plan to control them the
following grow -- growing season.
10
At that time our management
11
personnel will go out there and do a survey and
12
apply the right management technique to control
13
them at that time.
14
Q.
Which chemical vegetation-control
15
treatment method for initial right-of-way clearing
16
minimizes the amount of herbicide concen --
17
concentrate applied per acre?
18
A.
Low volume foliar.
19
Q.
You think that's less than
20
cutting stump?
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
On -- on what do you base that
A.
The basis would be that the stump
23
24
25
answer?
treat is a fifty-fifty mix of herbicide and carrier
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Page 531
and the low volume application is only a five
percent mix of chemical and carrier.
fifty percent chemical versus five percent.
Q.
Thank you.
No further questions.
A.L.J. STEIN:
Mr. Metcalfe, do
you have any redirect for this witness?
8
9
So you'd have
MR. METCALFE:
Can we take a few
minutes, your Honor?
10
A.L.J. STEIN:
Absolutely.
11
MR. METCALFE:
Thank you.
12
A.L.J. STEIN:
We'll take a five
13
minute break.
*6.
14
15
18
Mr. Metcalfe, your
MR. METCALFE:
Thank you, your
witness.
16
17
A.L.J. STEIN:
Honor.
19
BY MR. METCALFE:
20
Q.
Mr. Crosier, were you and Ms.
21
Howland responsible for producing an information
22
request response, denoted at D.P.S. Thirty-six,
23
that was delivered on September 16th?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
You know that -- that information
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Page 532
Crosier - Redirect - Metcalfe
request response given its late delivery date may
not yet even be known to some of the parties or to
the judge, but the -- I'd like to ask if you could
summarize some of the substance of it, with respect
to the vegetation-management practices during
construction -- the construction period.
A.
Yes.
Q.
I will get a copy for you.
10
A.L.J. STEIN:
Why don't we mark
11
this as an exhibit for identification and you don't
12
need to provide copies to parties, if you don't
13
have them.
14
15
A.L.J. STEIN:
You do.
Okay.
The witness has them.
18
19
We actually do,
your Honor.
16
17
MR. METCALFE:
MR. METCALFE:
Okay.
In fact,
the witness probably doesn't so if --
20
A.L.J. STEIN:
Okay.
21
MR. METCALFE:
-- with your
22
indulgence I would --.
23
24
THE WITNESS:
I'm -- I'm
comfortable with it.
25
MR. METCALFE:
Without seeing it?

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Page 533
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
MR. METCALFE:
Okay.
A.L.J. STEIN:
Okay.
Maybe you
could just e-mail me a copy, so I can add it to the
exhibit list.
MR. METCALFE:
Sure, your Honor.
A.L.J. STEIN:
And that will be
marked as Exhibit Number Fifty-three, and that is
10
D.P.S. Thirty-six, question and response.
11
BY MR. METCALFE:
12
Q.
(Cont'g.)
Okay.
So, again, I'll repeat the
13
question.
Just the request that you summarize that
14
response *in so far as it describes vegetation
15
management during construction.
16
A.
Yes.
After consultation with
17
Carol Howland, she indicated to me that first of
18
all there was no firm schedule for when this
19
clearing was going to be done.
20
And she indicated in her talks
21
with regulatory that this clearing possibly could
22
all be done during the winter months or into the
23
spring.
24
because of that I have real concerns about the
25
effectness -- effectiveness of a stump-tree
Unknown exactly with the timing of it and
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Page 534
herbicide or a cut-surface treatment as we've been
re -- referring to it.
There's several factors that can
diminish the effectiveness of a cut-stump
treatment.
One, would be the difficulty of
application during winter months with frozen
cambium and snow conditions it can be make -- make
10
it real difficult to get a fresh, clean, viable
11
stump and cambium to treat.
12
The other problem becomes in a
13
clearing activity there's a lot of heavy equipment
14
used.
15
right now can be degradaded to the point where the
16
stump treatment isn't effective because the cambium
17
layer has been knocked off from the stump.
The cambial layer even if you treated it
18
My other concern with stump
19
treatment is that it's not effective on certain
20
species during the spring months.
21
maples and birch because of the sap flow.
22
I reference
For these variety of reasons
23
Carol and I in our desire to limit the amount of
24
herbicides put down on the right-of-way, we felt it
25
was best to forego the treatment of stumps at the
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Page 535
time and to go to our regular maintenance regi --
regimen and have our people go out there the
following growing season, establish what needed to
be done and apply the appropriate methods then.
6
7
And that's our reasoning behind

this evolvement of the decision.
8
9
10
Q.
Once construction is completed
will you pick up your regular herbicide-treatment

program?
11
A.
Yes.
And at that time it falls
12
into maintenance and then we will resume our -- our
13
maintenance activities.
14
15
MR. METCALFE:
MR. BLOW:
20
I do have a follow up,
your Honor, if I might or a question on recross.
18
19
No
further -- no further questions.
16
17
Okay.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. BLOW:
Q.
Your -- on redirect you, Mr.
21
Crosier, you stated that basically the -- the
22
reason you chose not to -- have chosen not to apply
23
herbicides in -- during clearing is -- during the
24
construction phase is that it might happen in the
25
winter or early spring.
And so that -- that was a

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Page 536
1
2
Crosier - Recross - Blow

time-dependent answer, right?
I mean, the -- the clearing could
happen at other times in the year as well, correct?
5
6
A.
schedule.
7
8
I don't control the clearing
MR. BLOW:
No further questions,
your Honor.
A.L.J. STEIN:
10
questions for this witness?
11
more questions for this witness.
Are there no more
12
13
So then there are no

You're excused.
Thank you very much for your

testimony.
14
THE WITNESS:
15
A.L.J. STEIN:
16
to call our final panel for the *plenary session
17
and that's Thomas Connare and Ms. Howland I think
18
is coming back for more.
19
20
Thank you.
Thank you.
So now we're going
And I have Protect
Ghent for thirty minutes.
21
MR. METCALFE:
Your Honor, if I
22
might have a moment of -- of direct just to
23
establish what the one thing that's not in Mr.
24
Connare's prefiled direct which is his --
25
A.L.J. STEIN:
Yeah.
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Page 537
2
3
MR. METCALFE:
-- his sponsorship
of the basis species survey.
A.L.J. STEIN:
Yes.
MR. METCALFE:
Oh, I'm sorry.
A.L.J. STEIN:
That's okay.
swear him first.
MR. CONNARE:
10
A.L.J. STEIN:
hand and repeat after me.
MR. CONNARE:
13
A.L.J. STEIN:
MR. CONNARE:
A.L.J. STEIN:
MR. CONNARE:
That the testimony
Is the truth, the
Is the truth, the
21
22
That the testimony
19
20
I hereby affirm.
I'm going to give today.
17
18
Raise your right
I'm going to give today.
15
16
Oh, yeah.
I hereby affirm.
12
14
A.L.J. STEIN:
much.
Thank you very
You may be seated.
23
THOMAS CONNARE; Sworn.
24
A.L.J. STEIN:
25
Mr.
Connare, if you don't mind standing.
11
But let me
Please proceed,
Mr. Metcalfe.
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Page 538
2
3
MR. METCALFE:
Thank you, your
Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. METCALFE:
Q.
Mr. Connare, your prefiled direct
testimony indicates you -- you support -- your
testimony supports the wetland delineation survey.
Do you also support and are you
10
here to testify in support of the invasive-species
11
study?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
And, Ms. Howland, the -- both
14
activities, the wetland delineation survey and
15
invasive species study were performed at your
16
direction?
17
18
A.
(Howland)
That's -- that is
Q.
And one final minor point, Mr.
correct.
19
20
Connare.
In your prefiled direct testimony the
21
header indicates the name of Carol Howland, perhaps
22
questionably, but you may not even be aware of this
23
but the -- the prefiled correct -- direct
24
testimony, the header should have your name on it
25
as opposed to Ms. Howland's.
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Page 539
Connare/Howland
- Direct - Metcalfe
A.
(Mr. Connare)
Q.
Okay.
13
14
A.L.J. STEIN:
Thank you.
MR. HURST:
Mr.
Thank you, your
Honor.
11
12
No further
Hurst, your witness.
9
10
MR. METCALFE:
questions.
7
8
Just mostly to point that
out to the parties.
5
6
Okay.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. HURST:
Q.
Good afternoon, Mr. Connare
and -- and Ms. Howland.
15
I'm Bill Hurst on behalf of
16
Protect Ghent.
17
speaking into the microphone so I'm not able to
18
look at you when I question you so please don't
19
take that personally.
20
Mr. Connare, I'm going to be
Mr. Connare, if -- if you could
21
please get before you the wetland delineation
22
report which is attachment E to information request
23
E in the companies second deficiency response of
24
December 2012.
25
MS. HOWLAND:
The report, wetland

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1
2
Connare/Howland - Cross - Hurst

delineation reform?
3
4
MR. HURST:
Dated October 2012.
5
6
That's correct, yes.
A.
BY MR. HURST:
(Connare)
Okay.
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Okay.
Mr. Connare, as I
understand it your S corporation was asked to
perform a wetland delineation on -- on an
10
approximately three point mile segment of existing
11
right-of-way along circuit nine eighty-four.
12
Is -- is that generally the scope
13
of the wetland delineation report that we're
14
looking at now?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
And, Mr. Connare, at page eleven
17
of the wetland delineation report, there is a
18
section six point two entitled evaluation of
19
wetland functions.
20
21
Do you see that section that I'm

referring to?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
And am I correct in stating that
24
what is listed there are the various functions of
25
wetlands as determined by the United States Army
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1
2

Corp of Engineers?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
And if you look down, one
of those functions that wetlands serve is as
wildlife habitat, is that correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And am I correct in stating that
9
10
wetlands can provide habitat for among other things

amphibians and bird species?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
And is it also fair for me to
13
state that the alteration of the character or
14
characteristics of a particular wetland may have an
15
effect on its wildlife habitat function?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
And would you agree, Mr. Connare,
18
that to the extent a wetland was -- the
19
characteristics of a wetland were changed from, for
20
example, palustrine forested wetland to a
21
palustrine scrub -- shrub wetland that while some
22
of the functions listed in section six point two
23
may be preserved, the wildlife habitat function is
24
very likely to be altered under that circumstance?
25
A.
Yes, it may be altered.

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Page 542
Q.
And, Mr. Connare, just referring
you generally to the ground water recharge slash
discharge function, is it fair for me to say that
when wetlands appear to be connected to streams or
tributaries that they sometimes act as recharge
areas for those streams or tributaries or even for
groundwater in the area?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Mr. Connare, I'm going to ask you
11
please to turn to the table that's spread on pages
12
twelve and thirteen of the wetland delineation.
13
believe it's table six dash one.
14
**
15
I would ask you to please read into the record if
16
you wouldn't mind the comments that are adjacent to
17
the wetland -- its field identified as ** W 8 about
18
three quarters of the way down on page twelve.
19
And, in particular, Mr. Connare,
A.
Very large, very diverse and with
20
largest stand of common reed observed in
21
right-of-way.
22
Q.
And, Mr. Connare, what does the
23
phrase very diverse mean as used in that portion
24
that you just read for the record?
25
A.
I -- I would -- I would guess

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Page 543
that it means that there are a variety of
species -- plant species.
Q.
And, Mr. Connare, that's -- just
clarify for me.
That is a guess because you aren't
the author of the report, right?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
Okay.
And so to a certain extent
you're speculating as to what someone else meant
10
when they drafted the wetland-delineation report,
11
right?
12
A.
Correct.
13
Q.
Okay.
If you flip back on page,
14
Mr. Connare, to page eleven, there is another
15
reference to W 8 -- I'll refer to it as -- at the
16
bottom of the wildlife habitat section.
17
Do you see that?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
Okay.
And in summary that
20
sentence states that W 8 and W 17 are the largest
21
and most diverse wetlands in the study area,
22
correct?
23
A.
Correct.
24
Q.
And that those two wetlands
25
provide more extensive habitat than the surrounding
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Page 544
maintained right-of-ways, is that generally
correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Now, Mr. Connare, if I could have
you flip to figure five dash one of the report
please.
8
9
And are you able to identify

wetland eight on figure five dash one?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
And -- and just so that I'm
12
clear, my terminology, Mr. Connare, what is
13
referred to as W -- field I.D. W 8 is actually
14
wetland eight identified on figure five dash one?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
And according to your
17
delineation, it appears that W 8 extends to the
18
east of what's designated as the right-of-way on
19
figure five dash one?
20
A.
You mean it extends beyond the
22
Q.
Yes.
23
A.
Yes, it does.
24
Q.
And it extends beyond the
21
25
right-of-way?
right-of-way in easterly direction generally,
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Page 545
1
2

right?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Okay.
And, Mr. Connare, the line
of red triangles that's labeled continuation line,
can you explain to me what the significance of that
line is?
8
9
10
A.
It means that the wetland
continues to the east.

Q.
And, so, it's fair for me then to
11
state that what's been designated in the report as
12
W 8 is a wetland complex that extends even further
13
to the east than is shown on figure five dash one.
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
Mr. Connare, I'm going to direct
16
your attention back, and I'm sorry to flip you back
17
and forth between the tables here, but table six
18
dash one to what's identified as field I.D. W 11.
19
A.
Okay.
20
Q.
And I'm just going to ask you to
21
please for the record just to -- well, withdrawn.
22
I -- I won't have you do that.
23
Is it fair for me to say that in
24
the column titled hydrologic connectivity, there is
25
some reference to some ponds that are located
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Page 546
outside of the right-of-way in the vicinity of
what's designated as W 11?
A.
Okay.
Q.
So, I'm reading that correctly?
A.
Yeah.
That's what it says.
Q.
Okay.
And it also indicates that
what's been designated as W 11 continues east and
west to those ponds, is that right?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
Okay.
And so let's turn back if
12
you would to figure five dash ten I believe that
13
is.
I'm sorry, that was an incorrect designation.
14
It's actually also on five dash
15
one.
And so, again, Mr. Connare, and just let me
16
know when you -- when you found figure five dash
17
one again.
18
A.
Found it.
19
Q.
And so, again, based on the
20
delineation that's shown on figure five dash one,
21
wetland W 11, which is sort of near the Kline Kill
22
substation, extends further on either side of the
23
existing right-of-way than is shown on figure five
24
dash one, correct?
25
A.
Correct.
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Page 547
Q.
But the extent to which that
extension may be is -- has at this point not been
determined by *U.R.S.?
A.
That's correct also.
Q.
And in terms of the reference to
ponds outside the right-of-way, I understand this
is a little bit difficult because -- well,
withdrawn.
10
11
You did not personally observe

those ponds, correct, Mr. Connare?
12
A.
Not in my recollection.
13
Q.
Okay.
And so are you able to
14
tell me, Mr. Connare, whether there is a
15
possibility that those ponds outside the
16
right-of-way are some variant of vernal pools or
17
woodland pools?
18
A.
I don't recollect what the
19
habitat was there.
20
vernal pools or not by definition.
21
22
I'm not sure if they were
I'm not sure.

Q.
Is that a possibility, based on
23
what you can recall about the delineation report
24
and the area that's been surveyed?
25
A.
If it's a -- if it's a forested

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Page 548
run then it's possible, yeah.
Q.
And, Mr. Connare, if I could then
turn your attention, again, on table six dash one
on page thirteen to the entry concerning field I.D.
W 17.
And, just let me know when you've
got your eyes on that section.
A.
Okay.
10
Q.
Now, again, W 17 has this
11
reference to high diversity, do you see that there?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
And, again, it's your
14
understanding that diversity in that context means
15
a diversity of wetland plants and other wetland
16
species?
17
A.
Wetland plants.
18
Q.
And, again, for W 17 there's an
19
entry here stating that the wetland continues west
20
of the study area suggesting a hydrologic
21
connection to unnamed tributary to North Creek, is
22
that right?
23
A.
Correct.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
And now actually I think I
want you to turn to figure five dash ten.
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Page 549
A.
Okay.
Q.
And, so, again, based on the
narrative entry on -- on page thirteen and table
six dash one, looking at figure five dash ten, it's
fair for me to conclude that what's designated as
field I.D. W 17 extends in the direction of the red
triangles beyond the right-of-way?
A.
10
Yes.
MR. HURST:
It's going to be a
11
new exhibit, Judge, so I'll have to refile this one
12
eventually.
13
A.L.J. STEIN:
Very good.
14
will be Exhibit Number Fifty-five for
15
identification.
Oh, I'm sorry.
16
17
document.
Is this -- is this an exhibit as a --.

MR. HURST:
the application, Judge.
It's an excerpt from
I didn't know that --
20
A.L.J. STEIN:
21
MR. HURST:
22
Fifty-four.
And it is a one -- one-page
18
19
This
Okay.
-- Mr. Connare would
have access to the full application.
23
A.L.J. STEIN:
Okay.
In that
24
case we don't need to mark it as an exhibit.
25
BY MR. HURST:
(Cont'g.)
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Page 550
Q.
Mr. Connare, I just handed you a
plate figure two dash three E from NYSEG's
application in this case.
And I'm just wondering, Mr.
Connare, if -- if you're able to sort of orient
yourself between figure five dash ten and figure
two dash three E to generally identify wetland
field I.D. W 17?
10
A.
11
location where I made the --.
12
Q.
Yes, I can verify this is the
Okay.
And it would be sort of at
13
the -- the -- the turn in the line, right, where it
14
makes sort of almost a -- a ninety-degree turn
15
there to the -- to the west?
16
A.
Right.
17
Q.
And do you see the tributary
18
that's shown on figure two dash three E, Mr.
19
Connare?
20
A.
To the east of the -- to the
22
Q.
Yes.
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Now is that the same tributary
21
25
east?
referred to in table six dash one or is there
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Page 551
another tributary there that's not shown on the
company's mapping on two dash three D?
A.
I think -- I'm not sure what the
author of the report had in mind but with that --
with those -- that statement about the caption with
the potential hydro -- hydroelectric connection to
the unnamed tributary North Creek.
Q.
Okay.
And based on what you know
10
of the report, Mr. Connare, understanding that you
11
didn't author it, and based on figure five dash ten
12
and figure two dash three E, are you able to draw
13
any -- offer any opinion as to the likelihood of a
14
hydrologic connection between W 17 and tributaries
15
shown on two dash three E?
16
A.
No, I can't.
17
Q.
And, Mr. Connare, if there were a
18
proposal to construct a permanent access road that
19
was in the vicinity of W 17, is there a possibility
20
that that may have an adverse effect on some of the
21
wetland functions?
22
A.
Could you repeat the question?
23
Q.
Sure.
If -- based on what you
24
know about field I.D. W 17 based on the report
25
and -- and these two images, what would your
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Page 552
thinking be about the -- a proposal to construct a
permanent access road in that vicinity?
A.
I guess I don't have an opinion.
Q.
You would need to know a little
bit more about how far the wetland extended and
what direction and its hydrologic functions maybe?
A.
that would be correct in part.
10
Q.
I guess that would -- that --
And I'm correct am I not, Mr.
11
Connare, that W 17 was the second wetland mentioned
12
as the -- one of the largest and most diverse in
13
the study area providing more extensive habitat
14
than the surrounding right-of-way?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Okay.
Now, Mr. Connare, if you
17
could turn to section six point two of the wetland
18
delineation report once more.
19
paragraph sediment slash toxicant slash pathogen
20
retention, do you see that?
21
MS. HOWLAND:
22
MR. HURST:
23
What page of --?

Page eleven section
six point two.
24
25
In particular the
THE WITNESS:
Would you repeat
that?
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1
2

BY MR. HURST:
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Sure.
I was just directing your
attention to the sediment slash toxicant slash
pathogen retention wetland function, do you see
that?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And in sum and substance as I
understand what's been written there, it says that
10
wetlands are able to trap or capture sediment and
11
other materials that run off from surrounding
12
uplands including roadways and impervious surfaces.
13
Is that generally correct?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
And based on that statement is
16
it -- is it you -- there is a specific reference to
17
roadside wetland seven, eight and eleven as -- as
18
possibly performing that function.
19
to draw a general conclusion that wetlands adjacent
20
to any roads could perform that sediment slash
21
toxicant slash pathogen retention function?
But, is it fair
22
A.
Yeah, I -- it's -- it's possible.
23
Q.
Okay.
And just setting aside
24
roads per se, a transmission line right-of-way is a
25
linear feature similar to a road.
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Would you expect the same
sediment slash toxicant slash pathogen retention
function for wetlands that were adjacent to a
right-of-way?
A.
I'm not sure I understand the
Q.
Sure.
A.
Could you repeat?
10
Q.
Is that function limited to
question.
11
wetlands that are adjacent to roads or would that
12
apply when wetlands are adjacent to any -- any
13
linear feature from which there may be runoff?
14
A.
15
roadside, roadside discharges.
16
Q.
I would -- I would think
Okay.
So, is your testimony that
17
wetlands adjacent to a non-road right-of-way would
18
not experience runoff from that right-of-way?
19
A.
Could you repeat that one?
20
Q.
Sure.
21
I'm just trying to clarify
your testimony.
22
Is it your testimony that
23
wetlands adjacent to a non-road right-of-way, for
24
example a transmission line, would not absorb or
25
retain runoff from that right-of-way?
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Page 555
A.
Could you repeat once again?
Q.
Sure.
A.
I'm not clear.
Q.
Sure.
A.L.J. STEIN:
you -- can you put it in the positive rather than
the negative?
9
10
11
MR. HURST:
BY MR. HURST:
Can you -- can
Sure.
Sure.
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Mr. Connare, we've -- we have
12
established that wetlands next to roadsides retain,
13
to some extent, runoff from those roads, right?
14
A.
Right.
15
Q.
Would you expect the same to
16
happen with respect to wetlands next to any
17
transmission line right-of-way assuming there was
18
runoff from the right-of-way?
19
A.
I would assume that runoff from
20
the wetland -- from the right-of-way may enter the
21
wetland, and I'm not sure how that would apply to
22
this particular function.
23
24
Q.
Okay.
Well, let's -- let's --
let's work with that then.
25
And, so, if you assume that

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Page 556
runoff from the right-of-way would get into a
wetland to the extent that that runoff contained
any toxicants or pathogens, those would then be
retained by the wetland similar to the way it's
been described on page eleven, right?
A.
Potentially.
Q.
Mr. Connare, you're -- you're
9
10
also the sponsor of the invasive species report,

right?
11
A.
That's correct.
12
Q.
Okay.
13
Would you mind just
turning to that briefly for me, please?
14
MR. HURST:
And, Judge, for the
15
record, the invasive-species survey report is also
16
a part of the company's response to information
17
request E.
18
attachment designation.
I don't think it has a separate
19
MR. METCALFE:
It's part of,
20
excuse me, deficiency response number two.
21
BY MR. HURST:
22
23
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Now, Mr. Connare, did -- do you
have that report in front of you?
24
A.
Okay.
25
Q.
Mr. Connare, did you participate
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Page 557
in the preparation of the instate --
invasive-species survey report?
A.
No.
Q.
Okay.
So we'll -- we'll do our
best on this one.
And as -- as I understand it, the
invasive-species survey report was also limited to
the -- roughly the three point one mile existing
10
right-of-way, circuit nine eighty-four, is that
11
right?
12
A.
Correct.
13
Q.
And do you know, Mr. Connare, if
14
the company currently applies any invasive-species
15
management or control programs along that
16
right-of-way?
17
A.
I don't know that.
18
Q.
But your report did actually
19
discover the presence of various types of invasive
20
species along that right-of-way, right?
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
And, so, is it fair for me to
23
state that to the extent there was such a program
24
in place it didn't prevent the infiltration of
25
invasive species that you located during the --
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Page 558
1
2

your survey, correct?
A.
I can't conclude that, no.
Q.
Do you have any reason to
believe, Mr. Connare, that invasive species would
not also be present on new right-of-way that would
be constructed for purposes of this project?
8
9
10
A.
species could potentially be present on this -- in

that situation.
11
12
A.L.J. STEIN:
15
I'm sorry.
You
need to use the microphone.
13
14
Yeah, I think we said invasive
THE WITNESS:
BY MR. HURST:
I'm sorry.
(Cont'g.)
Q.
And, Mr. Connare, if -- if you
16
could just get in front of you very quickly figure
17
two dash three E of the application.
18
By linking up the new
19
right-of-way with the existing right-of-way, does
20
that create a vector or pathway for the invasive
21
species to move into the new right-of-way?
22
A. (Howland)
23
outside the scope of Mr. Connare's task.
24
tasked with -- U.R.S. was tasked with delineating
25
invasive species and doing the wetland delineation
That question is
He was
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Page 559
1
2

for the existing corridor.
MR. HURST:
Your Honor, Mr.
Connare is a wetlands biologist.
I just asked him
a question directly pertinent to his work as a
wetlands biologist.
This parsing of issues and thin
slicing them among sixteen different witnesses is
absurd, frankly.
10
11
MR. METCALFE:
I have no
objection to the question.
12
A.L.J. STEIN:
13
THE WITNESS:
14
question.
15
BY MR. HURST:
16
Go ahead.
Okay.
Repeat the
(Cont'g.)
Q.
Sure, Mr. Connare.
My question
17
was whether by linking up the new right-of-way with
18
the existing right-of-way, whether that potentially
19
creates a vector or pathway allowing invasive
20
species to be transferred from the existing
21
right-of-way onto the new right-of-way.
22
A.
(Connare)
Well, it creates a
23
pathway.
24
conveyed from the existing right-of-way, I can't
25
speak to that.
Whether invasive species were to be
I don't know.
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Page 560
Q.
Is that a possibility?
A.
It's a possibility.
Q.
And does the presence of the
existing right-of-way increase the probability that
the new right-of-way would have invasive species?
A.
I would assume that best
management practices would prevent that from
happening.
10
Q.
Would those be best manager
11
practices similar to those that may be applied
12
currently on the existing right-of-way?
13
A.
Well, these would be in --
14
these -- these would include construction best
15
management practices not just maintenance
16
management practices.
17
MR. HURST:
Thanks, Mr. Connare.
18
I have nothing further for you.
19
A.L.J. STEIN:
20
you have any redirect?
21
MR. BLOW:
22
A.L.J. STEIN:
23
Mr. Metcalfe, do
Your -- your Honor -Or do you have
questions?
24
MR. BLOW:
25
indulgence we have like five minutes for Mr.
-- may -- with your
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Page 561
1
2

Connare.
A.L.J. STEIN:
CROSS EXAMINATION
Sure.
BY MR. BLOW:
Q.
Would you refer to page eight of
the wetland delineation report?
methodology.
Section five,
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Could you read the last sentence
11
Yes.
starting to delineate and characterize?
12
A.
I'm sorry, what --?
13
Q.
The purpose --
14
A.
What paragraph is this?
15
Q.
-- what -- what was the purpose
16
17
18
of the survey?
A.
To delineate wetlands along the
three point one mile stretch of right-of-way.
19
Q.
Within the existing right-of-way.
20
A.
Excuse me?
21
Q.
22
A.
23
Q.
Would you look at figure one?
24
A.
Okay.
25
Q.
If you look at -- starting with
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Page 562
1
2
Howland/Connare - Cross - Blow

the Kline Kill -- NYSEG's Kline Kill substation.
A.
Yes.
Q.
To the limited field survey, does
this depict the existing right-of-way?
A.
Yes.
Q.
I direct your attention to just
south of County Route 22 looks like Garage Place
Road?
10
A.
Okay.
11
Q.
Does the line -- is the line
12
straight in this direction or does it change in
13
this area or does it change direction here?
14
15
A.
You mean where the existing line
ends and the proposed line starts?
16
Q.
No, at -- at the crossing of
18
A.
Oh, at the -- oh, I see.
19
Q.
-- the road crossing there.
20
A.
Okay.
Q.
Is -- is that a straight crossing
17
21
the -Okay.
Would you repeat the
question?
22
23
or does it -- is there a -- a change of direction
24
there?
25
A.
(Howland)
And right-of-way is a
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Page 563
straight crossing as the map appears to be in error
as delineates the right-of-way.
to reflect our proposed reroute around that one
residence.
6
7
Q.
That map appears
In this report could you look at
the photo thirty-eight?
A.
(Mr. Connare)
Q.
Did -- the photo says taken from
Okay.
10
outside the southeast boundary of wetland twelve,
11
right?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
Is that outside the wetland
A.
I did not take the photo.
14
boundary?
15
16
can't -- I cannot tell by looking at that photo
17
because I do not recollect if that area, you know,
18
in front of the pond is a wetland or not judging
19
from the photo.
20
Q.
I'd have to see a map.

Now, in the middle of the scene
21
on photo thirty-eight do you see the electric
22
transmission structure attend -- extending above
23
the tree line?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Would you look at figure five
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Page 564
1
2

dash eight please in this report?
A.
Okay.
Q.
This shows the location of
wetlands twelve and thirteen, right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And this shows the right-of-way
crossing County Route 21 and changing direction,
right?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
Is this delineation within the
12
existing right-of-way?
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
Is that your answer or did you
A.
(Howland)
15
Wait a minute.
want to?
16
I simply need to look
17
more at this and how they defined it.
18
answer it and I don't believe Tom can either.
19
I can't
It does not appear to be -- it
20
appears to be the proposed right-of-way not the
21
existing right-of-way.
22
Q.
And doesn't the transmission line
23
if you look carefully run straight to the west of
24
the corridor that was certified or that was
25
surveyed?
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Page 565
A.
The corridor is probably west of
what is -- this looks like the proposed corridor
not the existing right-of-way.
Q.
Okay.
Did -- do you know if the
crew that did the surveying had permission from the
landowner to survey the site?
A.
(Mr. Connare) I don't know the
answer to that.
10
Q.
Ms. Howland, you were on the site
11
tour right and visited the Schway (phonetic
12
spelling) property?
13
A.
(Howland)
14
Q.
Does this appear to be that
A.
Yes, it does.
15
16
That is correct.
property?
17
MR. BLOW:
18
A.L.J. STEIN:
19
Mr. Metcalfe, do you have any
20
MR. METCALFE:
Could we have a
couple minutes, your Honor?
23
A.L.J. STEIN:
24
MS. WILKINSON:
25
Thank you.
redirect for this witness?
21
22
No further questions.
Oh.
Your Honor, could
I ask two questions?
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Page 566
A.L.J. STEIN:
We are walking out the door at
MS. WILKINSON:
This will be
quick.
7
8
Only two.
five o'clock wherever we are.
5
6
Yes.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MS. WILKINSON:
Q.
Ms. Howland, and this regards
10
the -- the questions regarding possible runoff from
11
the right-of-way into wetlands.
12
You intend to maintain all the
13
scrub shrub material in the right-of-way do you?
14
A.
15
not be barren.
16
soil.
(Howland)
Eventually -- it will
We don't intend it to be barren
17
Eventually there will be -- it
18
will be re-vegetated.
19
guarantee it will be, you know, there will be
20
access roads.
21
will be some areas that will be bare soil but why
22
when -- when we're not actively working it, we will
23
try to get it stabilized.
24
25
During construction I can't
There will be work platforms, there
Q.
And as part of that -- and during
the construction period when there is bare soil,
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Page 567
Howland/Connare - Cross - Wilkinson
you're going to be following a storm water
pollution prevention plan --
A.
Correct.
Q.
-- correct?
A.
We will prepare a storm-water,
pollution prevention plan for this project.
8
9
10
Q.
And you're going to also as part
of that for the project you're going to implement

erosion- and sediment-control procedures.
11
A.
Yes, we will.
12
Q.
And that will ensure that we will
13
not have runoff from the right-of-way and toxic
14
materials?
15
16
A.
Right.
Physical things -- will
be some fences and hay bales and straw bales.
17
Q.
Okay.
So we -- we don't have to
18
worry about -- there will not be toxic runoff into
19
wetlands?
20
21
A.
No.
There will not be toxic
runoff into wetlands.
22
MS. WILKINSON:
Q.
23
A.L.J. STEIN:
Okay.
Thank you.
There being
24
no more cross examination, I'll give you a few
25
minutes to decide if you want some redirect.
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Howland/Connare - Cross - Wilkinson
MR. METCALFE:
Thanks, your
A.L.J. STEIN:
And I'm not going
to allow recross at this point.
have any redirect on these witnesses?
Honor.
7
8
Let's see.
Do you
MR. METCALFE:
I do not, your
A.L.J. STEIN:
All right.
Honor.
And in
10
that case we -- and I'm not going to entertain any
11
recross since there's no redirect.
12
So thank you, Mr. Connare and,
13
again, Ms. Howland for your testimony.
14
back on the record.
15
Thank you.
16
Let's go
Or we are back on the record.
This concludes the public
17
evidentiary hearing on this matter for today.
18
are going to reconvene on Tuesday, September 24th
19
at nine-thirty to hear the remaining witnesses.
20
And I'm now going to just recite a number of
21
outstanding obligations that various of us have
22
undertaken in the last two days and we'll have
23
these put on the record.
24
issue a ruling or a letter to the parties.
25
record will constitute my ruling as to these
We
I do not intend to also

So this
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2
Case 12-T-0248 - 9-18-2013

matters.
Everything on this list will be
due to be filed ten days from the publication of
the transcript, and that should be within a week
because that's our contract with the court
reporters.
8
9
10
So that could bring us roughly to

the -- no later than October 7th, sorry, give or
take a day.
11
So what I have on my list of
12
things that are still outstanding, the first is
13
parties will have that time to review any answers
14
that were given subject to check.
15
to revise a testimony or question the testimony
16
based on checking, they have that time to -- to do
17
so.
And if they want
18
I'm also going to ask you to use
19
that ten days to review the transcripts as posted.
20
I will also review them and if you have any
21
questions or corrections to let me know and I will
22
coordinate any corrections to the transcript, and
23
we will post a revised transcript if necessary.
24
Second one, that's number one.
25
Number two, Protect Ghent is to
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provide the case number that's associated with its
Exhibit Number Twenty-nine, and if you need help
from staff to locate that case number I'm going to
ask staff to cooperate.
6
7
MR. HURST:
Appreciate that.
8
9
Thanks, Judge.
A.L.J. STEIN:
difficult to find.
It can be
The third, NYSEG needs to
10
provide the affidavit from Mr. Branstreet (phonetic
11
spelling) since we're not having him as a witness
12
in person.
13
14
MR. METCALFE:
And Mr. Dimary
(phonetic spelling) also the affidavit.
15
A.L.J. STEIN:
Yes, Dimary also.
16
Fourth, also for NYSEG, a
17
response I believe from Mr. McKinney or from his
18
panel to staff, to its question of what is the
19
actual power factor on each of the substations in
20
the Mechanicville division.
21
Number five, again, NYSEG, this
22
is my request, as to the vintage or the year of the
23
FEMA flood plane map provided in figure four dash
24
four.
25
Number six, also for NYSEG,

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you're going to e-mail me what has been marked as
Exhibit Number Fifty-three, I don't have a physical
copy of it and that's the response, the company's
response to D.P.S. Thirty-six.
And seven, any exhibits that were
proffered in this hearing that have not been filed
with the secretary to the commission, true copies
of those exhibits will need to be filed within that
10
time period.
11
And finally, number seven, I just
12
want to inform you that I have reexamined the
13
schedule, the overall schedule set for the
14
proceeding, and I've realized that I am not going
15
to be available for the mid November second round
16
of site visits for those two days.
17
So I'm going to have to
18
reschedule those.
19
I just wanted to put you on notice.
20
the country.
21
22
I don't have a proposal now, but

I'll be out of
Does anyone want to add anything

to that list of follow up?
23
MR. METCALFE:
Regarding, your
24
Honor, regarding the item number seven for all
25
exhibits, do you want the application and
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deficiency responses or since they're on the D.M.M.
system those are not necessary?
A.L.J. STEIN:
necessary.
already been filed.
Absolutely not
This is only for things that have not
So primarily that would be
discovery responses that were -- I.R.'s that were
made, responses given, the responses placed into --
10
into the record for identification at these
11
hearings, but where the -- the -- the responses
12
have not yet been filed in D.M.M.
13
MR. METCALFE:
Understood.
14
A.L.J. STEIN:
Okay.
15
we're going to wait until next week to solve the
16
problem of how to identify Exhibits One through
17
Twenty-five.
18
MR. HURST:
19
A.L.J. STEIN:
20
MR. HURST:
And I think
One more item, Judge.

Yes, sir.
If you wouldn't mind,
21
just Mr. Metcalfe and I have had -- identified an
22
omission in the company's September 17th response
23
to P.G. dash One.
24
was the amended response that I handed out towards
25
the end of the proceedings yesterday, and so maybe
Your Honor, might recall that
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just a placeholder.
a revised version of that and we'll get that into
the record in due course.
5
6
Mr. Metcalfe will get me a --
A.L.J. STEIN:
Okay.
Was that
marked as an exhibit?
MR. HURST:
It was.
I -- I don't
have the exhibit number in front of me.
very early on.
It was
It's probably in --.
10
MR. BLOW:
Twenty-six I think.
11
MR. HURST:
Yeah, Twenty-six.
12
Actually think Steve is correct in that.
13
14
A.L.J. STEIN:
Yes.
So we'll get
a revised Exhibit Twenty-six.
15
MR. METCALFE:
16
copies here but we -- we can distribute those and
17
e-mail --
18
We have hard
A.L.J. STEIN:
I'd appreciate
20
MR. METCALFE:
-- to everyone.
21
A.L.J. STEIN:
I would appreciate
19
22
that.
that.
Okay.
Very good.
23
Thank you all very much.
This
24
was a long and complicated couple of days but we
25
made it to this point.
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So that said, I'm going to
adjourn the public hearing at this point and go --
we'll go into executive session for roughly another
twenty minutes to half an hour of testimony.
you all very much for coming.
participation.
Thank
I appreciate your
(Off the record)
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STATE OF NEW YORK
I, Howard Hubbard, do hereby certify that the foregoing
was reported by me, in the cause, at the time and place,
as stated in the caption hereto, at Page 342 hereof;
that the foregoing typewritten transcription consisting
of pages 342 through 565, is a true record of all
proceedings had at the hearing.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto
subscribed my name, this the 24th day of September,
2013.
7
8
___________________
Hannah Allen, Reporter
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A
ability 419:11 435:23 437:9
487:13 493:3
able 348:14 350:20 352:21,22
356:5,13 362:11 371:3 374:16
375:15 419:16 421:17 447:4
527:21 539:17 544:8 547:13
550:6 551:12 553:10
absolutely 531:10 572:4
absorb 554:24
absurd 559:9
accept 438:17
acceptable 466:18
access 380:24 388:2 391:6,8,9
391:11,15,17,22,23 392:2,5,6
392:10 407:14,15 409:18 415:8
439:12,14,16,20,24 440:6
446:6,12,24 447:10,14,17,24
448:5,10,17 451:2,16 452:4,8
452:14,16,19,23 453:13,18
465:23 471:5,13,16,18,22
472:7 473:2 474:24 486:11,13
487:3,8,17,23 488:7 492:13,23
493:3 494:24 495:3 497:15,16
498:16 499:10 500:13,14,15,24
501:7,7 503:8,11,14,19 507:3
549:22 551:18 552:3 566:20
accessed 439:7,9
accommodation 514:11 516:17,24
accommodations 517:16
account 398:21 407:9,14
accurate 372:13 406:20 420:9
421:10,12 422:11 424:11 425:3
acquiring 432:9
acre 530:17
acreage 412:7 469:25
acres 386:8 387:15 420:23 421:2
423:5 429:14,22 430:4 469:14
469:16 470:2 478:10
act 542:6
activations 459:2
active 416:24 417:5 431:9 439:3
439:4 466:13 470:2 471:14,19
472:4,22 475:12,20 477:4
478:7,7 487:5 506:23 512:24
513:9,15,21,25 514:2
actively 512:15,20,21 566:22
activities 406:19 407:25 408:5
409:14 412:24 413:6 446:8
494:2,19 521:19 535:13 538:14

activity 534:13
actual 373:16 423:21 435:6
570:19
add 385:18 386:19 465:24 533:5
571:21
addition 510:11
additional 347:14 357:20 408:9
408:25 409:5 410:13 415:23
427:13 495:17 499:8
addresses 457:3
adequate 358:22 421:18
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adjacent 387:16,19 418:10 438:8
448:25 449:3 481:16,16 514:25
542:16 553:19 554:4,11,12,17
554:23
adjourn 574:3
administrative 342:13
adopted 502:11
adopts 502:9
adverse 551:20
advice 519:24
advise 452:25
aerial 452:7 528:6,7
affect 407:20 408:2
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affirm 507:22,23 537:11,12
afternoon 481:7 508:22,24
539:13
afterward 523:25
ag 438:25 448:13,18 464:18
469:25 470:2 474:5 487:17
488:6,17 492:5,7
age 529:22,24
agencies 492:5 493:23
agency 493:17
ago 372:16
agree 388:20 393:13 399:10
441:5 462:25 468:13 525:6
541:17
agreeable 384:21
agreed 523:14
agreement 455:23
agricultural 343:16 404:23
405:9 406:5,10,19,25 407:5
412:24 413:6,11 414:3,18
416:2,5,12,15,25 417:5,11
431:3,9,11,14 435:3 439:3
466:13 468:5,10,15 469:2,7,19
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469:23 470:10,15,16,23,24
471:14,19,20 472:5,22 477:3
487:5 492:15 493:12 494:12
506:23
agriculture 343:11 402:22
413:18 473:14 491:24 512:25
ahead 348:17 395:6 484:9 486:15
559:12
aim 362:15
airline 343:14,17
albany 342:11,14 343:6,10,14,17
343:21,24 344:12
alignment 468:14
allen 575:8
allinclusive 529:9
allow 358:6 359:6 361:20,23
412:23 413:6 447:12 492:13
506:22 568:5
allowable 401:9,20
allowed 359:2 413:9 435:22
allowing 416:17 559:19
alteration 541:13
altered 541:24,25
alternative 346:22,23 347:8,22
350:9,17,25 354:14,21 358:13
360:23 362:25 397:21 416:21
417:3 432:15,18 469:17 481:12
491:6
alternatives 358:15 363:5
477:12
amended 572:24
amendment 494:21
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427:4 429:12 434:24 435:20
450:3 469:22 530:16 534:23
amounts 419:2
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analysis 360:21 370:25 474:19
477:9,25 478:3,4,11 479:10
analyze 501:5 503:17
andrew 343:7
andy 462:16
angela 344:4
angle 414:15,16 426:7
answer 375:25 400:11 408:17
435:15,15 442:21 450:8 456:23
479:14 491:19 496:10 502:17
515:14 530:23 536:2 564:14,18
565:9
answered 461:21 502:4 521:7
526:22
answers 569:13
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anticipated 436:6 448:23 484:20
anybody 437:8 467:6
apart 516:19
apologize 374:25 377:10 379:13
379:16
apparent 483:13
appear 463:6 467:21,22 470:12
520:22 542:5 564:19 565:14
appearances 343:2
appears 358:14 379:17 405:22
406:3,9 410:24 411:20 412:2
412:11 449:14 452:7 463:4
468:14,24 469:20 472:25 488:9
544:17 563:2,3 564:20
appendix 347:9
applicable 446:11,14 492:21
494:23 528:22
applicant 458:10 472:10 475:8
478:20 479:3 518:15
applicants 477:16
application 342:4 370:19,22
371:22 372:2 376:7 377:12,13
377:21 380:5 381:15 382:4,19
383:2 386:6 387:14 400:15
402:11,13 406:15 414:25
445:14,20 446:5 452:18 454:25
456:15,19 457:3,8,24 458:11
459:11,12 460:9 466:12 468:3
469:21 470:22 472:20 475:3
480:3,12 490:13,25 499:15
502:2,9 503:2,7,17 510:2
512:16 514:5,19 516:10 520:6
523:21 524:7,10 525:8,17
526:9,18,24 527:19 528:8
531:2 534:8 549:19,22 550:4
558:17 571:25
applications 516:18 524:24
525:17 528:4,6,10
applicator 514:19,21
applicators 514:15
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490:7 500:8 522:8 523:25
528:12 530:17 560:11
applies 431:3 514:24 515:2
516:14 519:25 557:14
apply 370:10 395:16 396:9 398:3
446:16,18,19 490:16 513:16,24
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514:15 516:8,11 519:14 530:12
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applying 399:17
appreciate 356:7 391:3,5 570:7
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appropriate 369:17 385:14 535:5
approval 382:2 493:18
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528:5,10
approximately 342:6 379:18
411:21 412:3 415:20 429:13
430:4,8 464:12 469:16 479:24
480:18,20 482:16 488:5,9,18
540:10
april 403:7,18
archeological 495:4
area 349:24 350:11 351:8 352:22
352:23 353:14,19,21,22 356:20
358:10 359:3 379:9 381:3
387:16,19 390:14,16,20 391:10
391:25 392:13,16,25 395:4
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areas 352:19 382:24 389:14
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arguably 353:23
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arrangements 526:13
art 475:14 477:5
article 492:19
aside 553:23
asked 349:8 464:19,20 483:8
486:12 489:15 496:9 502:4,17
515:5 540:8 559:4

asking 368:8 395:19 413:25
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assuming 368:2 387:8 435:23
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attachment 365:21 404:10 405:17
405:17,18 410:22 420:21
426:13 433:19 453:4 509:2
520:10,17 539:22 556:18
attachments 365:19,20 366:18,19
366:21 403:23 520:22
attempt 413:3 475:8
attempted 404:22
attempting 421:14
attempts 412:22
attend 563:22
attention 351:18 359:9 404:16
405:13 414:24 418:6 420:12
421:24 423:8 424:15 489:6
545:16 548:4 553:4 562:7
attorney 343:13 345:11
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author 543:6 551:5,11
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414:18 417:16,18 418:13,25
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avoids 405:7 476:25
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369:17 371:14,23 372:24 373:6
374:4,21 375:23 376:5 377:7
377:17 378:11 379:11 380:4
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386:6 394:8 395:10 397:22
400:17,18 402:8 408:10 409:7
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427:8 431:25 438:19 441:20
b 347:15 349:12 422:2,7 425:23
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back 353:20 364:22 376:2 401:4
464:17 466:5,6,10 473:22
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475:24 479:24 481:2 482:17
433:13 436:21 448:20 458:6
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believed 521:7
546:11 568:14,14
bender 355:9,11
balance 404:23 414:14 415:19
benders 355:14
416:11
best 368:8,10 369:6,15 370:4,12
balances 431:8
424:12 481:22 493:21 495:19
balancing 398:18,25 405:9 477:2
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544:20,24 549:8
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bed 385:22
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beginning 476:11 480:11
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blows 400:2 461:16 496:9 525:22
blue 381:20 383:19 423:12,14
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book 381:20 383:19
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borings 450:6
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476:25 478:14
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bridge 381:17 382:20 383:4,5
bridgetype 383:14
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broader 397:5
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broken 470:7
brought 495:6
brower 343:15
build 417:16 419:15 420:3

448:12
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377:17 379:24 380:9 381:18,20
381:25 382:5,6 383:19 384:7
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387:6 389:17 390:15 392:6
393:10,18 394:9,15 395:11
396:11 397:3 400:10 402:14
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485:9 489:9,24 490:19,23
493:20 494:21 496:23 497:17
499:5 514:13,15 516:13 517:18
517:20 519:17,22
calculating 434:24
calculation 407:8,13
call 489:5 507:14 536:16
called 392:8
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calls 462:12
cambial 534:14
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cant 354:9 381:9 389:9 464:22
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capability 412:17
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capital 419:20
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categorically 420:6
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center 357:11,13,15,24 463:8
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certainly 425:19 468:18 493:2
certainty 467:8
certificate 342:4 370:7,16
454:21 492:19,22 494:14
498:21,24 499:9,18,21 500:4
certification 498:20 501:13
certified 514:14,19,20 564:24
certify 575:2
cetera 504:10
chairs 510:25
change 494:22 499:17 510:25
526:23 527:5,18 562:12,13,23
changed 368:24 541:19
changes 368:3,17,19,21,25 369:6
369:15,21 401:11 494:19
changing 453:21 564:8
character 541:13
characteristics 374:16 383:17
383:23 396:20 398:3 401:10,20
402:9 457:15,17 459:6 460:12
462:10,13 466:3 541:14,19
characterization 468:12
characterize 561:11
characterizing 383:6
chase 351:10,21 353:22
chatham 342:6 495:9 504:17
check 375:24 376:25 400:3
411:15 438:18 468:23 569:14
checking 569:16
chemical 388:22 466:15 517:19
524:23 525:11 530:14 531:3,4
chemicalclearing 524:16
chemicalspraying 524:20
chose 351:25 444:6 481:8,11
535:22
chosen 443:7 535:22
chris 343:13 413:25
circuit 427:2 433:24 491:14

540:11 557:10
circulated 345:7
circumstance 541:24
circumstances 498:7,10
citation 397:13 400:10,12
489:19,23
cite 515:25
citing 405:6
city 344:5
clarification 408:4 518:20
clarify 442:2 454:24 471:17
477:13 502:22 504:5,11,25
516:20 543:5 554:20
class 379:24,25 380:2 395:15
397:20,25,25 398:4,8,9,15,15
401:8,8,12,13,15,15,15,17,23
401:25 402:3,4,5,16,17 459:3
459:3 464:13,14 491:2
classes 396:2,13,16,20 402:13
490:9
classification 376:22 380:3
464:24 484:14
classified 374:13 484:17,19
clean 534:10
clear 363:16 375:6,7 429:20
432:13,14 454:11 495:7 544:12
555:4
clearance 450:18
cleared 386:10 430:5,18
clearing 386:11,15 419:5 429:12
448:12 451:13 521:21 522:14
522:25 530:5,15 533:19,21
534:13 535:23 536:3,5
clearly 500:19
close 379:9,15 413:8 415:11
416:16,18 479:15 481:2 515:19
516:7,12
closer 427:18,25 481:21
closest 491:11
cocounsel 433:9
coincide 350:11
cold 384:12 390:5
collectively 366:4
colonies 456:10
colony 455:18
color 465:4
coloration 467:17
coloring 465:2
columbia 342:5,7 347:6 368:13
800.523.7887
800.523.7887
Page 582
468:9 520:2 528:16
column 545:24
combination 485:8 524:21
come 354:23 381:5 384:2 391:13
439:17 448:19 460:12 471:3
485:8 499:17 514:8
comfortable 532:24
coming 426:24 428:18 433:22
487:9 536:18 574:6
comment 505:20
comments 542:16
commercial 417:11 483:11
commission 342:2 343:3,5,9
454:20,21 571:8
commitment 390:17
common 542:20
communicated 432:14,17 433:4
community 525:4
compaction 382:23
companies 539:23
company 475:17 509:4 519:14
525:6 530:5 557:14
companys 356:2 369:11 498:19
515:24 551:3 556:16 571:4
572:22
compared 352:22
comparison 459:9
compatibility 342:5 415:9 416:6
compatible 417:25
compensate 492:8,14
compensatory 393:19 394:4 489:8
compiling 479:9
complete 365:22 524:14
completed 360:22 478:11 535:8
completely 392:14 432:13
complex 545:12
complicated 573:24
complied 399:9 458:7
comprehensive 346:10,18 347:2
478:25 504:9,15
conceivable 410:12
concen 530:16
concentrate 530:17
concept 517:22
conceptual 502:23
concern 534:18
concerned 356:25 365:3,6 371:14
376:19
concerning 408:8 482:12 526:3,5
548:5
concerns 533:24
conclude 549:6 558:3
concludes 431:18 504:2 568:16
conclusion 395:20 497:5 527:2
553:19
concrete 453:12,14 457:21 459:2
464:16
condition 370:7 392:23 396:22
399:14,22
conditions 370:16 396:9,21,23
534:9
conduct 371:10,12,12 485:21
conducted 454:8
conductor 449:17
conductors 449:10 450:15,19
confidential 386:4 455:23
456:23
configuration 445:11
confirming 488:12
conflict 478:21
confused 357:22 502:19
congestion 442:5
connare 536:17 537:8,9,12,15,19
537:23 538:6,20 539:1,2,13,16
539:20 540:1,5,7,16 541:1,17
542:1,2,10,14,22 543:1,4,14
544:1,5,12 545:1,4,15 546:1
546:15 547:1,11,14 548:1,3
549:1,21 550:1,2,6,19 551:1
551:10,17 552:1,11,16 553:1
554:1 555:1,11 556:1,8,22,25
557:1,13 558:1,5,15 559:1,4
559:16,22 560:1,17 561:1,2
562:1 563:1,8 564:1 565:1,8
566:1 567:1 568:1,12
connares 536:24 558:23
connect 497:2
connected 349:9 389:7 542:5
connection 346:18 348:24 350:8
350:15 354:21 356:19 360:16
441:15,19 442:4 504:8 548:21
551:7,14
connectivity 545:24
connects 358:11
consecutive 357:10
conservation 343:19 364:6 381:3
394:5 455:25
conservations 489:21
consider 358:18 362:23 363:6
388:21 417:3 419:23 420:7
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Page 583
421:13 423:22 429:4 431:22
434:2,23 435:2 450:25 478:21
consideration 412:23 413:4
414:2,12 427:5,11 432:8
470:25 474:10 475:11,16
477:10,19 478:12,14
considerations 398:22 470:25
477:19
considered 352:12 389:15 412:17
417:14 418:11,17 421:8,16
426:11 427:10
considering 352:4
consistent 425:11,12
consisting 345:10 462:21 575:4
consists 350:2 367:17
constitute 568:25
constraint 353:24 427:13 475:21
constraints 349:24 350:6 352:21
415:25 459:5 479:10 499:20
construct 391:9 409:6 551:18
552:2
constructed 471:14,19 500:16
503:14 521:25 558:7
constructing 391:8
construction 342:5 370:15 380:6
380:11,25 381:7,11,25 384:7
384:17,21,22 386:12 389:22
406:18,18 407:18,19,22,25
408:5,10,15,22,25 409:2,14,17
409:23 410:14 420:17 439:8,12
439:21 440:7 454:13,14,16
455:4,6,7,9 457:23 458:2,13
458:19 471:16 493:6 494:4,16
495:14 501:2 502:15 503:18
519:15 521:19 522:3,8 525:9
530:7 532:7,7 533:15 535:8,24
560:14 566:18,25
consult 371:20,24 372:3,7
478:23
consultation 507:6 533:16
consultations 482:12,16
consulted 478:25
contact 479:3,12
contacted 474:13,22
contained 556:3
contaminate 511:15,21
contaminating 511:25
contemplate 391:8
contemplated 439:17 525:7
contemplating 439:20
context 548:14
contg 348:19 351:16 356:11
359:15 360:14 362:18 369:14
375:13 379:7 380:23 382:16
386:25 387:7 393:9 394:6,13
396:4 397:15 401:6 408:7,18
408:23 414:23 419:21 433:12
433:17 435:18 437:18 440:18
442:10 443:12 444:2,20 450:24
456:8 457:2 458:9 461:23
462:24 473:18 474:2 476:20
483:23 486:17 491:3 497:6
502:7,25 505:12 511:7 519:3
528:2 533:11 540:6 549:25
553:2 555:10 556:21 558:14
559:15
contingencies 497:10
continual 494:15
continuation 545:5
continue 435:22 447:12 448:16
506:22
continued 412:23 413:6
continues 545:9 546:8 548:19
continuing 358:18 455:12
contract 569:6
control 522:13 524:23 530:5,8
530:12 536:5 557:15
conventional 509:20 510:13
conversation 482:22
conversion 387:10 389:25
convert 386:16
conveyed 559:24
cooperate 570:5
coordinate 390:23 569:22
copies 365:19,22 366:18 532:12
571:8 573:16
copy 365:20 366:25 367:3,3,4
393:22 473:12,16 532:9 533:5
571:4
corner 411:6 413:9 416:16
487:10,19
corp 541:2
corporation 342:4 540:8
corps 419:17,20,20 420:3,4
466:4 484:16
correct 346:15,24 347:13 349:9
349:10,16,17 351:5,25 352:13
353:7 358:4,17 359:21 363:13
363:18 366:23 367:2,19,20
368:6 370:12 373:2,3,8,10,13
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Page 584
373:18 374:7,8 376:17 378:12
379:23 382:3 384:11,24 386:2
386:12,13,17 387:11 388:12,18
388:19 389:12,17,18,23 392:20
396:24 405:10,25 406:6,11
410:19,25 412:14 415:15
418:13 420:10,19,24 421:3,11
422:16 423:7 430:13 435:8,12
435:16 437:6,7,12,22 438:19
438:23 439:4 444:9 449:12
450:16 451:7 454:5,18 455:14
457:6,11 465:11 468:7,11
469:2,9,12 472:2 473:16 474:3
477:22 480:22 481:10,13
482:10 495:2 497:15 503:5,6
503:10,15,16 505:7 509:25
519:20 520:3,7,14,20 536:4
538:18,23 540:3,23 541:6,8
543:7,12,22,23 544:3 545:3,14
546:24,25 547:5,11 548:23
552:9,10 553:13 556:11 557:12
558:2 565:13 567:4,5 573:12
corrections 569:21,22
correctly 349:4 359:19 397:19
546:5
correspond 466:13
correspondence 355:4,6 421:21
472:11,16
corresponds 379:12 428:5
corridor 386:10 387:13,16,19
388:3 402:15 447:7 451:23
452:2 457:10 490:20,25 491:25
559:2 564:24 565:2,3
corridors 405:6
corrosion 457:21 459:2 464:16
cost 432:3,7,8,9
couldnt 354:13 451:16 507:2
counsel 343:4,5,20 436:22
count 418:18
country 571:20
county 342:5,7 347:6 358:19,21
358:22 359:5 360:23,24 361:2
361:25 362:4,14 368:13 467:9
468:10 520:2 528:16 562:8
564:8
couple 346:9 481:6 529:8 565:22
573:24
course 573:4
court 344:8 365:22 367:4 399:24
569:6
cover 386:21,25 387:5 521:9,10

covered 370:10 503:20
create 353:17 359:25 430:3
558:20
creates 559:19,22
creating 404:21 507:2
creation 354:21
creek 372:25 373:2,12,15,20
374:5 376:19 377:15,22 378:15
379:12,18 480:19 548:21 551:8
crew 565:6
criteria 415:5,19,23,24 416:13
417:8,19 418:23 427:24 429:7
429:23 430:25 431:13 458:20
458:24 459:14 464:23 466:15
critical 415:23
crop 470:8 512:8,13,13,19
crops 466:17 512:21,22 513:2
crosier 507:18,23 508:2,6,10,11
508:22,25 509:1,11,17,23
510:1,6,21 511:1,8 512:1,6,10
513:1,7 514:1,4 515:1 516:1
516:22 517:1,21,25 518:1,20
519:1 520:1 521:1 522:1 523:1
524:1 525:1 526:1,22 527:1,16
528:1,14 529:1 530:1 531:1,20
532:1 533:1 534:1 535:1,21
536:1 537:1 538:1
crosiers 526:19
cross 345:8,9 346:12 347:1
348:1 349:1 350:1 351:1 352:1
353:1 354:1 355:1 356:1 357:1
358:1 359:1 360:1 361:1,4
362:1,21 363:1 364:1 365:1
366:1 367:1,22 368:1 369:1
370:1 371:1 372:1 373:1,22
374:1 375:1 376:1 377:1 378:1
378:14,15 379:1,21 380:1
381:1,4 382:1 383:1 384:1
385:1 386:1 387:1 388:1 389:1
390:1 391:1,16 392:1 393:1
394:1 395:1,7,16 396:1 397:1
398:1 399:1 400:1 401:1,11,21
401:24 402:1,10 403:1 404:1
404:13 405:1 406:1 407:1
408:1 409:1 410:1 411:1 412:1
413:1,22 414:1 415:1 416:1
417:1 418:1 419:1 420:1 421:1
422:1 423:1 424:1 425:1 426:1
427:1 428:1 429:1 430:1 431:1
800.523.7887
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Page 585
432:1 433:1 434:1 435:1 436:1
436:24 437:1 438:1 439:1
440:1 441:1 442:1 443:1 444:1
445:1 446:1 447:1 448:1 449:1
449:11 450:1 451:1 452:1
453:1 454:1 455:1 456:1 457:1
458:1 459:1 460:1 461:1 462:1
463:1 464:1 465:1 466:1 467:1
468:1 469:1 470:1 471:1 472:1
473:1,25 474:1,4 475:1 476:1
477:1,21 478:1 479:1 480:1,19
481:1 482:1 483:1 484:1,11
485:1 486:1,16 487:1,11 488:1
489:1 493:25 508:20 509:1
510:1 511:1 512:1 513:1 514:1
515:1 516:1 517:1 518:1,10
519:1 520:1 521:1 522:1 523:1
524:1 525:1 526:1 527:1 528:1
529:1 530:1 531:1 539:11
540:1 541:1 542:1 543:1 544:1
545:1 546:1 547:1 548:1 549:1
550:1 551:1 552:1 553:1 554:1
555:1 556:1 557:1 558:1 559:1
560:1 561:1,4 562:1 563:1
564:1 565:1 566:1,7 567:1,24
568:1
crossed 356:22 396:3,10,16,23
396:24 397:21 398:2,5,8,14
458:23 482:2,7 490:8 493:21
crosses 379:22 470:11
crossing 356:24 372:23,25,25
373:5,7,11,16,16,20 374:4,13
377:13,15,22 378:5,8 379:2,8
379:15,17,20,21,23,24 381:23
383:20,24 384:5 385:14 390:15
390:18,19 401:10,20,25 402:3
402:4 476:9 477:14 562:16,19
562:22 563:2 564:8
crossings 372:17 380:15 381:13
381:20,21 384:3,20 385:12
390:5 391:23 448:7 477:4
482:9
crowns 529:3
cuddeback 343:13 402:23 403:3
403:11,13,16,22 404:2,9,12,14
405:1 406:1 407:1 408:1,7,23
409:1 410:1 411:1 412:1 413:1
413:12 419:21 461:14
culdesac 428:18
cullen 344:3
cultivated 470:7
culvert 383:14
curious 431:7
current 438:3,5,13 472:11
currently 362:3 417:10 472:8
475:6 557:14 560:12
cut 495:7 523:5,20,24 524:3
525:11 527:22
cutandstump 524:4
cutstump 534:5
cutsurface 534:2
cutting 513:14 522:17 523:2
529:4 530:20
D
d 367:13,17 368:9,9 371:3,13,20
371:23,24 372:5,8,12,22 373:6
373:11 376:11,23,25 377:17
380:9 381:18,20,25 382:5,6
383:19 384:7,16,18 385:14
386:8,20 387:6 391:19 392:6
393:10,18 394:9,15 395:11
396:11 397:3 400:10 402:14
403:7,18 404:4,16 405:13,13
411:3 414:4,7,13 420:12
421:25 422:22 423:9 425:8,16
425:22 427:16 429:2,9 433:14
437:12,13,16,19,20,22,23
438:2 448:24 449:2 451:22
460:15 461:11 462:23 471:5
473:6 475:23 479:13 484:21
485:9 489:9,24 490:19,23
492:5 493:20 494:7,17 508:13
514:13,15 516:13 517:18,20
531:22 533:10 544:13 545:18
548:5 549:7 550:9 551:3,24
571:5 572:2,12
dark 423:12 465:9 467:12,22,22
467:25
darker 467:21
dash 345:24,24 347:5,7,20
348:24 350:17 351:4 358:9
374:19 377:8,9,10,11 411:3,3
415:2 445:23 448:21,22 453:6
453:22,23 454:7 455:2,11,12
455:15 456:10 457:8,13 459:12
459:24 460:2,4,5 461:11 462:2
464:9,9 466:7,19 468:4,8,16
470:5,6 482:5 524:7,11 542:13
544:6,9,14,19 545:13,18
800.523.7887
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546:12,14,16,20,24 548:4,25
549:5,5 550:3,7,8,18,25 551:3
551:11,12,15 558:17 564:2
570:23 572:23
data 350:4 376:23 457:9 463:12
463:25
database 372:9 386:19,20 460:16
461:4,10 474:21 485:5,13
databases 350:4
date 345:23 450:4 532:2
dated 403:18 509:15 520:14
540:4
dave 351:11
david 344:3,8
davis 343:7 462:16 521:11,14,15
day 456:13 569:10 575:6
days 507:12 568:22 569:4,19
571:16 573:24
dealing 476:13
december 440:17 539:24
decide 401:21 567:25
decided 447:23 525:13
deciding 396:6
decision 535:7
deferred 451:19
deficiency 348:6,9,10 424:17
440:12,14,16 445:14 453:5
459:23 486:19,19,20 509:3,5
517:4 518:13,21 519:4,8 520:6
526:6,24 527:10,20 539:23
556:20 572:2
deficient 348:4
define 475:4 522:19 525:16
defined 450:3 503:22 564:17
definition 451:4 466:3,11 500:7
547:20
definitive 452:23
definitively 452:13
degradaded 534:15
degree 490:8
delineate 388:7,13 561:11,17
delineates 563:3
delineating 388:10 558:24
delineation 388:2,15 390:12
465:3,21,23 538:8,14 539:21
540:2,9,13,17 542:12 544:17
546:20 547:23 552:18 558:25
561:7 564:11
delineations 387:23 493:9 501:9
delivered 531:23
delivery 532:2
denoted 531:22
density 525:5
department 343:11,11,18 364:6
394:4 402:22 413:18 436:15
438:25 455:24 464:18 473:14
474:4 489:20
depend 356:15,17,18,21 447:3
dependent 389:15 496:13
depending 398:8 491:23 529:22
529:24
depends 447:5 451:3
depict 463:6 562:5
depicted 445:13
depth 460:6 464:10,11
describe 345:21 349:25 382:21
456:9 485:5
described 432:19 480:5,16 556:6
describes 533:14
describing 446:2
description 349:19 431:3
design 440:5 501:17
designated 461:11 462:14 469:10
469:18,23 470:9,23 480:13
485:2,3 544:18 545:11 546:3,8
549:6
designation 461:7 463:19 465:9
546:13 556:18
designations 491:2
designed 407:16 439:17 471:23
designing 440:4
designs 498:16
desire 534:23
desktop 349:23 350:2 358:25
359:4 370:25 474:18
desktopping 349:21
destroy 361:20
detailed 520:18
details 454:14 497:12
determination 353:6 358:25
359:2
determine 450:10 453:17,18
465:3 505:15 514:18
determined 358:21 360:24 409:19
409:21 410:10 446:7 448:3
452:24 473:4 498:20,23 507:5
540:25 547:4
determining 490:7
develop 485:6
developed 368:11 431:14 454:20
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Page 587
460:8 475:6 525:8
developing 437:5 477:11 478:16
development 350:15 370:14
420:15 422:9 427:4 432:4
433:6 438:2 474:6,23 475:7
479:8 483:18,25 504:23 505:6
505:17,19,21
developments 444:12 481:24
483:3,5,10,11 484:3
didnt 373:4,14,16 400:20 424:25
429:7,8 441:10 459:9 462:11
478:23 479:3,12 481:20 501:11
549:19 551:11 557:24
difference 467:16,17
different 386:17 387:10 391:23
391:24 395:15 397:24 401:23
410:6 467:16 490:9 499:14,16
527:2 559:8
differently 442:9 498:4
difficult 425:25 426:7 427:11
427:13 478:6 534:10 547:8
570:9
difficulty 534:7
dimary 570:13,15
dimension 412:7
dimensions 411:18,25
diminish 534:5
direct 359:8 369:13 404:15
424:15 442:3,23 472:10 496:7
517:7 536:22,24 538:4,6,20,23
539:1 545:15 562:7
directed 354:19 363:24 365:21
408:11 440:3 491:9 502:17
directing 553:3
direction 356:4 363:12 471:8
473:20 476:3 491:5 538:16
544:25 549:7 552:7 562:12,13
562:23 564:8
directions 391:14
directly 496:23 511:2 559:5
discharge 542:4
discharges 554:15
disconnect 526:17
discover 557:19
discovery 572:8
discuss 362:12 376:7 432:2
433:9 456:2 479:7 485:20
505:19 526:8
discussed 490:25 498:14
discussing 487:7
discussion 351:13 356:9 366:7

366:15 393:24 453:24 454:3
496:23
discussions 505:5
distance 352:2,24 353:3 412:3
430:19 434:5 479:22,23 488:13
distinction 514:6 515:17
distinguish 528:4,5
distribute 573:16
distribution 352:5 362:6,8
district 468:5,10,15 469:2,11
469:19,23,25 470:10,15,16
districts 470:13,23,24
disturbance 457:23 458:2,12
diverse 542:19,23 543:21 552:12
diversity 548:11,14,15
division 343:16,23 570:20
document 346:4 368:20,23 369:18
369:21,24 370:3,6,11,21
386:19 394:2,2 403:10,21,23
404:3 405:17 462:20 509:13
510:8 520:19 521:10 549:17
documents 520:10,23,25 521:6,10
doesnt 360:4 377:13 448:13
452:19 457:24 458:10,11 459:6
469:24 483:19 484:18 509:9
532:19 564:22
doing 349:19 385:24 388:10
493:9 558:25
domain 361:20
dont 350:19 353:9,11 354:12
355:5 358:5 360:2 361:12,17
365:19 367:6 377:20 381:3
397:16,16 399:12 400:6 407:16
409:6 412:9 413:20 419:10
421:4 423:4,4 425:9,14 429:15
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546:16 548:7 549:19 551:9,24
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415:13 426:6 430:12 442:12,19
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414:15 426:2,20,23,24 427:6
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522:4
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438:14 439:19 442:7 443:6,8
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414:22,23 415:1 416:1 417:1
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436:1 484:6,10,12 485:1,17
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M
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Transcript For Evidentiary Hearing On 09.18.2013

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STATE OF NEW YORK DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SERVICE

THREE EMPIRE STATE PLAZA, ALBANY, NY 12223-1350

PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION

Re: Case 12-T-0248

STATE OF NEW YORK

APPLICATION OF NEW YORK STATE ELECTRIC and GAS

Tuesday, September 18, 2013

A.L.J. ELEANOR STEIN

Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc.

Case 12-T-0248 - 9-18-2013

FOR DEPARTMENT OF STATE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL

Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc.

Case 12-T-0248 - 9-18-2013

NEW YORK STATE ELECTRIC AND GAS:

CULLEN and DYKMAN, LLP

FOR TOWN OF GHENT:

FOR PROTECT GHENT:

Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc.

Case 12-T-0248 - 9-18-2013

(The hearing resumed at 9:36

This is Judge Stein.

hearing where we left off yesterday.

We'll now pick up this

I have circulated a revised

schedule for today's cross examination and we're

going to resume with cross examination of the

panel, consisting of Carol Howland, Sarah Gilstrap,

and Dusty Werth.

the representative for the Town of Ghent.

And our first attorney will be

Would you like

this exhibit marked for identification?

Thank you, Judge.

marked Exhibit Number Forty-six.

And I would just

describe that as a informational request and

response to Protect Ghent's response number --

request date August 29th, 2013, with response

number C.C.T.P. dash twelve dash zero seven two.

And this is Dusty Werth and Timothy -- Timothy

Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc.

Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc.

Case 12-T-0248 - 9-18-2013

as Exhibit Number Forty-six.

Thank you, Judge.

Well, good morning, Ms. Howland, Ms. Gilstrap, Mr.

Werth, your Honor.

Just a couple questions of the

panel, regarding the Town of Ghent Comprehensive

I believe you made reference to

Now, did you review the Town of

Ghent Comprehensive Plan, in connection with your

And that was both for the -- the

four alternative routes, as well as the four

thirty-four point five kV alternative routes?

And did you review the entire

Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc.

Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc.

Howland/Gilstrap/Werth - Cross - Greenberg

Now, if you could

take a look at figure three dash four, which is

entitled Columbia County Transmission Project,