The project at stones River National service Dr.

Martha Norkunas, Project Director Remembering the cemetery community Oral History Project Unedited Audited Transcript

Interviewee: Saad Amhemd Interviewer: Hasan Karayam Date of interview: May 22, 2011 Place: Hasans home, Murfreesboro, Tennessee Record format: 48 Hz uncompressed digital wave file recorded a Marantz PDM 660 Digital Audio Recorder, Sennheiser MD431 Dynamic Vocal Supercardioid Microphone. Recording length: one hour and fifty nine second (1:00:59) Transcriber: Hasan Karayam Audited By:

Biographical information: Saad Amhemd Kallafala was born and raised in el-showirf, Libya on Augustus 18, 1984. He is international student at MTSU in the United States of America since 2007. He is the oldest one among his saplings. He is grown in small village in the south of Libya and has perfect experience in the Sahara affairs as Bedouin boy. His grandfather is one of the foamiest chief in the village, especially in the early of the twenty century. He is graduated from high school in 2002. He is smart student, therefore was teacher assistance in the college where he study. Then the Libyan government gave him a scholarship to study aboard in the United States. Right now, he is studying his master in economic, he is going graduate in the next fall.

The project at stones River National service Dr.Martha Norkunas, Project Director Remembering the cemetery community Oral History Project Unedited Audited Transcript

Interviewee: Saad Amhemd Interviewer: Hasan Karayam Date of interview: May 22, 2011 Place: Hasans home, Murfreesboro, Tennessee Record format: 48 Hz uncompressed digital wave file recorded a Marantz PDM 660 Digital Audio Recorder, Sennheiser MD431 Dynamic Vocal Supercardioid Microphone. Recording length: one hour and fifty nine second (1:00:59) Transcriber: Hasan Karayam Audited By: Abstract: Saad Amhemd Kallafala talks about his schooling in different stages and how to come here. He also talks about his transition from Libya to the United States and challenges that faced him, such as culture shook and how to learn English as the first new language after his native language. He narratives unique stories about his grandfather when he was soldier in the World War II in 1943 with Italian army, and how involved in it. Saad attended the economic siege in Libya in the 1990s and how influenced on all sides of Libyan people, notably social and economic situation in Libya at that time. He concludes by talking about the Libyan revolution in this year in February and his position of it as Libyan student who knows so much about his country.

The project at stones River National service Dr.Martha Norkunas, Project Director Remembering the cemetery community Oral History Project Unedited Audited Transcript

Interviewee: Saad Amhemd Interviewer: Hasan Karayam Date of interview: May 22, 2011 Place: Hasans home, Murfreesboro, Tennessee Record format: 48 Hz uncompressed digital wave file recorded a Marantz PDM 660 Digital Audio Recorder, Sennheiser MD431 Dynamic Vocal Supercardioid Microphone. Recording length: one hour and fifty nine second (1:00:59) Transcriber: Hasan Karayam Audited By: Context notes: I am international Libyan student and am studying PHD history at department history at Middle Tennessee state University (MTSU). I am currently working on a project of oral history that explores the finding cemetery community in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, under the direction of Dr.Martha Nurcunas. Because, I am international student my advisor gave me special project that is with international students from Libya to focus on the history of Libya in south villages of Libya through oral history to examines the Libyan history, notably in the 1950s and 1960s, which will be my dissertation (the relationship between the united States and Libya from 1951 to 1969). The oral history interviews will focus in the situations in the Libyan interiors in that period and how to tie that information to serve my reach. Saad and I spoke together frankly for one hour and fifty nine seconds in the living room at my home. Both of us were in the maximum of trust and relaxed. This interview went longer than I had expected.

The project at stones River National service Dr.Martha Norkunas, Project Director Remembering the cemetery community Oral History Project Unedited Audited Transcript

Interviewee: Saad Amhemd Interviewer: Hasan Karayam Date of interview: May 22, 2011 Place: Hasans home, Murfreesboro, Tennessee Record format: 48 Hz uncompressed digital wave file recorded a Marantz PDM 660 Digital Audio Recorder, Sennheiser MD431 Dynamic Vocal Supercardioid Microphone. Recording length: one hour and fifty nine second (1:00:59) Transcriber: Hasan Karayam Audited By: This is Hasan Karayam, I am here with Saad Amhemd at my home Murfreesboro, Tennessee, this interview is part of oral history project under the direction Dr.Marth Norkunas. Today is May 21, 2011. Do I have your permission to record this interview? He: Yes. Hasan: Mr., Saad can you introduce yourself? Saad: Okay, as you motion, my name is Saad, my family name is Kalfallah. I am Libyan student here at MTSU. And my mess is in economics and I, my credit classes and I have the last thing that I have now is my comprehensive exam, which is in the next twenty days or so, and a little bite about my biographical information. I lived in small village in Libya. It is located in Ejabal Elgarbi (The western mount) which translated to west mounts, my city ,my village exactly it is in the south of Tripoli about one hundred and fifty kilo meters or so. I get my education from the first grade till I graduated from the high school - my high school from the same school at first I started my childhood with , My, that child over there that their playing , doing, the sort of things,

I started my school step by stepstep by step until I took my ninth grade after the ninth grade. We sought that we should at the high school to that and I was the first generation high school in that school in science department in that time which is translated to science department and I get my degree between 2001 and 2003 and after that, I entered I went to the university. It is also is not for away from mu home it is about fifty miles or so in our system of major of limited seventy five kilo meters. And I studied economics at that university between I that the first day was for me it is October 24, 2002, I graduated February 1, in 2007 in Economics and according to my GAP A and my background in my economic part in that time. I get chance to be teaching assistance and I started my teaching assistance from November 2007 until May 2008. In May 2008 or a little bite before May, I get my scholarship and prepare I prepare myself in that time exactly at May I,I came here to the United State. It is, and when I came to the United State there is many other things find of at first we have, I had kind of culture shook. This culture shook I do not know its, was it could for me, because it is good for me. I think I will not, I will never had culture shook after that, because I had kind of standard of the culture, the culture, the culture that I lived in Libya I thought all the world maybe have the same culture, but when I came here many things were in the opposite direction in The opposite side to my, but I know and to my action but everything I had to control or, and some of them I had to stop. The other actions had to compare them to, realize them to the system that people in the United States lived in, and because of this work according to this, I will never had cultures hook after that because I know from my experience in Untied State not all the world the same even the same country of few focus more carefully. You will realize, will realize that, there is many things are different not the same, and because of this. I think or any one in my position or my opinion who agree with me. If you got culture hook just one time you will never have in the second time or it will never have you, because will or the mined will Open or accept many cultures. And the bad things in this kind of cultures hook, I lost many, I lost part of my time or I missed some of my time to , How to get comfortable the U.S culture and multicultural and many other cultures but because of there is some Arab people or Libyan people actually, they were in the U.S from the mid 70s or so they helped me to get out from this cultures hook. And I started and, and the other problem I think it was also get me more worse in my culture shook my English. My English was every limited. The English that I had at that time was just alphabet and I started 101 from ELS, which is translated English language school Indiana polis, Indiana. I started my studies , I started in English at that time from 101 which is the very beginner, just I have just because I have just the alphabet and I started step by step and the first three months and I became maybe because I just more active or something like that. I became able to, to get in the , the society and , and live and I formalized myself to the society and the culture that I faced and I have no chance to change since I have no chance or no way to change the culture or the society to my way or my culture, I will change myself change myself to the the society and convert my everything actions and everything that I have and I started to learn my English at that time and I actually learned many beside, my I learned my I read about the culture U.S culture I watched movies and in the first time when I watched movies I just may be understand pictures and the pictures faces but its seldom to understand some words and time by time time by time or days, day after day or I became able to understand there movies and the languages. And in the sixth month I think I started my studies in English in June, June/2/2008. In, in the 6th or 7th month I think in December. In December I did my first exam in English proficiency ILTES. ILTES its Brutish exam. This this is for them to measure your English or to, or to look to English how its good or bad. I get 5 and I get 5 in that exam. The Five that means to me very, many things. When I get 5 that mean

my English is very well very, and I am in the good shape in my English, because the to get a to get the academic acceptance in the any university here in the US at least you must have 6, six out of mine and I get 5. If I studies may be three or more, three months or more; I will be able to have 6 or 6.5 or 7 or something like that. I am sure I will have a good grade. And then after that, I sought the English centre or English language center which is in Indianapolis its become less give its can at that time could not give me the English that I could able to get from the first time when I came. And my English become better, better than before and the center has its limited to learn English. I moved to another city; its located in the south of Indianapolis by 60 miles or so. In the, the city or the Bloomington which in Indiana university IU, I found another program it was very nice program I studied in that program and my English become very good at , from that from that language from that that school. And besides, my beside my studying English, I entered another school its called Kaplan, Kaplan to prepare myself for Graduate Record Examination GRE. And I studied I started preparation GRE preparation from Kaplan; from Kaplan and the also I studied at that time I was studying English in that school and prepared myself to the English, to the GRE. and when I finish preparation I , I get my , before I finish my preparation I get my conditional acceptance at MTSU. They gave me conditional acceptance and they had have to , GRE at least 800. 800 it was not a big deal for master student; and especially who are their math is very well , and my math is very well and they have, since I dont have problem at that time with math I was able to have the grade the that required to get my academic acceptance at MTSU. I moved from Bloomington Indiana to here to the also ELS. When I , there since, there is no other schools here except ELS, I had no chance to go anywhere except ELS. And I came to ELS here, which in the side one of sides of MTSU. I studied two month and they get my GRE and when I when they interview with me to look to my English I get passed my English I did not any tests. And I passed my English and my English was very well. and I get all the requirement like GRE score and English I passed I entered MTSU I get the full admission and I started my study but the starting my study I thought the school that I studying in the language schools as same as the studying at MTSU but the studying at MTSU the material was or the studied they have we get lots of material. And its very extensive study this caused me, caused me another problem. The first problem was this is was the first connection between me and the Native American or the American, American people. But before I all of my communication were with international students international students, all of us we had we had the same English. Hasan: Mr. Saad , I thank you about this , this explanations about your transition from Libya to United Sates, but you told me you are from small village or small nice valley in the desert Sahara in Libya. Like these places I think in Libya its rich by traditional ways and by local culture as you know the system, the social system in Libya depended on the triple system. Can you tell me about your childhood in that area in the heart of the Sahara desert? Saad:Ok, actually this is a good question, its it had has two sides, the first side before school, since its small valley, but the small valley there is not just one small valley. There is very small valleys one and two and three and so forth on, so on and so forth. but here before school ok old people like my father and my mother they could go to the other valley and like as some of them one mile and two miles and , like this in the events and they know each other. But when I was child, the children we are not allow to go. We played with the children just from the same valley. that gave us or that kind of give us in the small frame of the culture and how and and that

frame customizes us about just one type of culture. But when I went to the school the school its, there is many other students from many other valleys. When we communicate with other students, they had different culture and different things. First time we were not able to get good communication with them because we think they are wrong and they also thing though they were we wrong. But when after first or the second months in the school, we became able to communicate with each other, and play with each other, and we know each, we knew each other at that time. But our communication just from that time we enter the school until we lift the school. and we became talk with each other how we do this how we do this how we do this and when we grow up, we became able to communicate with each and go and visit each other in the events and its there is many other cultures and values each side you each valley has its own values and own traditional culture which different from each other. This is they keep their values form them this is something we cannot measures, we cannot measures, we cannot even we cannot some of the values we cannot we cannot compare it from the others because each for instance, when for instance like for example in my values in my values in the, especially in the wedding this is we can see the values in the wedding in the wedding for instance to move the bride from her, first her old family to the groom family or the groom house. In my society we moved it on the camel, camel take it from this place to the, to her new house. The other societies no; they used some other traditional, traditional things this is the first example of the, of the wedding and this culture differences culture differences. Also if we look to the how we will how we will communicate with each other in the events for instance, in some in other societies. they when the , when the man or the boy or the girl or when they engaged with each other they are allow they can go with each other and they can go for shopping. But in my culture, its not even if we are engaged with each other we are not allow to go with each other and to. Ok we can talk we can visit each other from time to time but not every day not always this is also they maybe I dont know of, they who is better than the other form this side because I think in my culture they were in my culture even if I dont agree with this but, I have to be agree with this. I cannot go with my fianc anywhere she even she cannot go with me and also she cannot visit me, and I can visit I can visit her and she cannot visit me. In the other societies they can visit each others. And then the in their values, history values, its in the historys values actually all of them kind of the same. Because, I think in the side that I am talking about, its when in the big events like, when the Italian colonization or something like that or any enemy came to this these societies all of them they will gathered they gathered or stay in congregations and fight with each other to protect their societies animals farms that they have. And or from any from any outside enemies or any anyone who trying to take anything from any part of their lands anything. And this of the all of the societies or village. Village they are in the same way they fight the same way they stay under one leader. They gave some of the people especially the man the woman they are not part in this in this at least in outside. but they can prepare food and kook and take care of the injured people. But when they for to fight or to protect your land, its this is main job main job, extremely for the man and the woman they have their own job. Hasan: Mr. Saad , in that , in that area I think the life its too difficult in Sahara desert, what is the your essential or your economic resources in that area , because I think there is no any factory or there is no any like a big city? Why are you live there in that area? Saad: I think in opinion since you dont have like as you mention factories and things like this, we have to formalize ourselves to the environment that we have. Our environment we cannot say

its dry but and we cannot say its rain each time like in the U.S here. And there this one of the differences, we like rain and they here maybe they dont like it we hope to for this rain to go there. But the first as I mention our farms, Our farms this is we depend I think more than 80% on the farms. The farms and the farm and we most of our the thing that we seeds or the production the used in this farms wheat this the most the most good or commodity that we depend on we put e can keep it for a long time and its dry we dont worry about it, we can deg in the land and keep it and the other thing is about the animal if we the lamb and goats, we used them for meat trade by them, trade them, eat form them, and take care of them, this is and we take care of them for for a long time when they have babies we sell their babies, buy food for them. And if we have lot of rain, we dont have to buy food for them they can eat from the nature from, the from outside and this easy for us. but when we dont have rain or the rain is not enough, we have to wed have to sell their male babies and keep the female, and sell the male to buy food to buy food and sometimes to buy water. And the water also problem because since we dont have rain and there is no lakes or something like that have to deg in the ground and, and the keep the keep the water in the ground this is lakes or this is when we and, or this water dry finished we have to buy more water. And we used the camel, the camels that we used for transportation, transportation its very depended on the camels and the camels to for to farm the land or the camels kind of the transportation system used here. Its used, we use in our societies or in our to communicate with each other when we when we travel long distance we use camels. and the camels they can they can walk for more than a week without water and they can carry lot of lots of weight lots of weight, and this is also we have to we have to consider in our in in this. but cows, we keep cows keep them just for milk just for milk, nothing more because they cannot stay without water and we cannot keep lots of them. Hasan: Ahah you are talking about your life in the desert Sahara, but the Libyan I think it has rich history modern and contemporary history, may be some events you attend or you are as a wetness that events especially 80s and 90s; can you tell me about the history nature in your in your in your country as your grandmother grandfather tooled you that? Saad: This is, this is interesting question, the most in interesting question interesting part in this question, we have two types of history. The firs type of history the history that we studied in the schools. We study in the schools history and the when when Libya was kingdom and something like that and how the king how the king trade with country. And we, I dont know how to explain it but I can say he sell, he sold the country to the other or to the west. But when we ask our grandfather and mother, they told us another different stories, different stories. And when we came to United Stated also we kind of the stories that we heard from our grandfathers and grandmothers and this things that or the information that we saw on the internet here, they kind of the same. But the history that we studies is very different. I think the history that we studied this is what our government wants us to know like for example, when about Omar Almuktar, Omar Al-muktar who fought against the Italian colonization from 1911 to 1931 I think, we heard about we heard about him but there many others including in addition to Omar Almuktar, where are they?... why they disappear?... Why we never heard about them? May be we heard about them when we came here from the internet, from others. But when we stay in Libya we never, we heard about Omar al-muktar and the question why we just heard about Omar almuktar and we did not heard about the other? What is the something special about Omar almuktar all this questions it raised in my mind or in my mind and we search about them so much

for instance, since grandfather my grandfather he is not in the period of Omar al-muktar at least he porn in 1919 or 1918 or something like that. And he was of the solders in the World Second, Second World War between; in the place between Egypt and Libya he did not attend the war when Omar al-muktar was fighting against the Italian colonization. But at least he had some stories about that he heard the stories from people who were in they that was but. Hasan: please, let me cutyou, I think you are talking about your grandfather, he was as soldier in the World War two. You mean your grandfather, he participate or he contribute in the world war two. Can you tell me about that when he was soldiers was with Ally or with Aix and why he did participate in the World War two in that time? Saad : he I I do not have many information about this but at least I will tell you what I have the information that I have , he was in Italian army in Italian army but, he fought he was in the army in about three years and something as he told me. In the, in that world and he was in the first face, or the face on the Italian soldiers. They were behind them, behind the Libyans or something like that and they were fighting against the British the British, British army or British soldiers and they were caught from the by the English or something like that. but when he told me when I asked him why they caught in that war. he said when they had equipments, tanks thing like this, they toke the equipments from the army for some preparation in the middle of the war and this how they caught or the English caught them. But how came back to the his family they thought he is died that from the first time he left them. but how they came back , I am not sure about it. But I I tried that to ask him but I forget some times and sometimes I do not have, I have bad memories to planning the record this. Since he is still live his memory allowed him to to remember this this events. But he he was he was as I mention he was one of the soldiers and he did not lose anything, but he he talked about many people, He knows them, they they he sow them they died they died and some of them flee and some of them they surrender But how he came back I am not sure about about that. Hasan: yes, Mr. Saad, as we know the Libya he watched different historical phases, like Italian colonization from 1911untill 1943 and French- British Administration from 1943 until 1951 that year when Libya get its independence to the last phases revolution 1969. By the colonel Gadhafi that is period I think it is continues with us until now, but I think when you are in under grade and in your high school, I think in 1990s. The 90s All we know this is period or this decade it is too hard for Libyan, people. Because American siege in that period. How did you live in that period in Libya? Saad: well, in that period it was. I think it was hard for all of the Libyans not just for me. The first I do know because of the bad thing or the trouble that Gadhafi made to the other people or to the rest of the world or to other parts of the world. We paid the cost We paid the cost by the economic stage in economic stage cost that we paid its called the Currency depreciation the Currency depreciation the currency lost its value when the currency lost its value the goods or the commodities the prices it will increased by two three or four times sometimes. This is we had difficulty to buy things, we had very difficulty some some other basic or basic food we are we are unable to buy at that time we were unable to buy at that time, because of the high prices, because of the high prices I the things the things that just helped us our The farms or the things that we have in our valley or in our family or something like that, and the school it was very difficult for also for us to go sometimes since there is no goods roads and there is some

sometimes there is no teacher we the books or classes it will be closed all the period and if there is a rain or something like that, we cannot go to the school also go to the school, and and if the weather is too cold also we cannot we cannot go to the school. Because there is nothing to buy in that time. Ok the price are very high and also there is nothing to buy including that we cannot buy anything just some other people they they use like the cotton or something like that to made to made or to have homemade cloths sometimes from the the animals. We take care of at that time and, also when I when I was in my high school. The interesting things and I will never forget will never forget. Its When I go to the school in the morning and came back at lunch time so, I take my lunch I go to follow the sheep or goats animals sheep goats camels sometimes and I take. Take care of them at from the lunch up to sun site or something like that then I came back. This is of the every day schedule. The deference on Friday or on the because in Libya or in Islamic countries most of the Islamic countries the Friday is is a holiday, there is nothing there is no work. In Friday I will go from the morning to follow the sheep, drink milk from them, if one of them born I will take care of its baby something like that even if its goat or sheep and then. Hasan: I think this is period in 1990s. it has influential on all sides all aspects in Libyan life like social or economic even culture sides. As we know the social system in Libya like marriage or like something like that; can describe me the effected of this period about this point. Saad: yes, the social the social side Its affected and you mention a point that is especially, and you mention also the interesting points about in the social in the social side, which is the the marriage. The marriage its in our traditional or in our culture its something that we it has very high or we valued it very this value because we valued it very much we spend a lots of money and in the period of the 90th90th there is nothing acutely to buy as I mention before and and even if you find something to buy. It is very expensive and we have spend a lot of money. and the problem there is not very much money to use also the things we seek to buy its very expensive. This is effect this has its affection or its negative affection or something like that, on the social side, especially in the marriage. The marriage changed a little bite and because of the because of that period we could not afford to value it very much or to or some families they do not have the amount of money that we need we need to prepare their marriage in the traditional way, they avoid many things and also there is or they did it less social in the past we were invite the friends and their friends and all of the family members and, in the Libya the families are very big families. And any one related to your family he or she will invite. But in the period of economic siege that period its the Libyan society in the social side its affected very much. And this affection on the, as I mentioned on the marriage for example, my brother my brother. He passed the thirty at that time and we did not have the amount of money that we can offered to make the marriage on the traditional on the traditional way or to do it as before as 80th 70th and this we did we did like the first thing its late very much its late we very much wait for long time and after our waiting we could not afford the amount of money and we lost time and there is no enough money we could not able or we were unable to do it as the traditional way and we have to cut the things out and change other things and if people who invited they were very few people and very specific people the he or she did not have anything to do he will not be invited because of we cannot offered the meals we cannot afford the places or the anything also we cannot offered the costumes like for specially we have the most important thing the gold . we buy lots of gold and because the gold is very very expressive. we

cannot amount of that needed at that time and we have to pay a lots of money to have just a little bite of that mount and because of this there is many other. Hasan. Let us ask you question you you are talking about the effects of the economic siege on the marriage of the people. Do you know how much the marriage usually cost each one if they make marriage in that period? Saad: well in that period its the affection we before we first; we firs lets talk about the periods before they were the marriage were cost about lets say about $20,000 so $20,000 the numbers I will say by the dollars $20,000 in the in that period the marriage becam e may be we reduce it by 75 or something like that we need just as I mention just the necessary things we use reduced $5,000, between 5,000 and $10,000 after we passed that period some people they change they went the periods before and the increase amount but its not as before as 80th and 70th and it is not as the 90th . its its between its between this is we could not continue to do as traditional as before on the traditional as before in 90th and we increase just a little bite from the from the period of the 90th and now the affection of that period its still continues with the Libyan a people, because some of them the costume their selves on that period may be they add a little bit or they not and some of them they still on that way because they found it give them cost them just less money and less time and less people sometimes and this is the affections. Hasan : oh , cool that is in you mean the system of marriage before 90s right now is different that is mean the 90s or the period of economic siege that changed the social system of marriage that is that is create a new ways to marriage unlike the unlike traditional marriages in 80s or 70s that is cool to reduce [laughing ] that effects I like it, because right now many people he can marriage without a lot money or that is advantages of the economic siege. Saad: I I think, I agree with you in some parts and l did not I agree with you in the in the others. I agree with you its afford for people its less expensive and there is less expending of money and all if we compare from the economic side I agree with that and if I asked or compare I will choose choose the economic side but if we look in other side from the traditional of the culture. We lost almost everything and I dont know if I looked to the culture side or if I need just to do the culture side do it by the culture side or to do it by the culture way or the traditional way I cannot find or I will not find this is or if I need it I will seek for people who know this thing or who can do it, because the young people or the youth now kind of forget everything or they have no idea about this. The periods before I have maybe.. people I have to ask some people to do this and this is will cost a lots of many maybe even more than before and if I just needed just we get we ask to get married and that is all we do not care about the culture. This the period that period its the 90s period. Its batter for many people. Hasan: Mr. Saad you told me about your life and your childhood and some ways tradition in your culture and about the phases of your education. but right now I have the last question as Libyan student in United States who seek to your future I think in Libya there are demonstration and uprising against the Gadhafi government what is your reaction against this demonstration and this political and military situation in Libya right now.

Saad: well. before I think lets lets talk about Gadhafi as person who born and rise the Gadhafi time or during the Gadhafi period of governance. We never saw any one addition to Gadhafi and we thought he is the best person for the Libyan and we I as person on my persoal I never get commence with him but when look to others like Egyptian, scholarships and we have many things like this, but when we asked about our rights like or civil rights, civil rights we find him you do not have any right. He he react with us like if you ask the civil rights you will die. You have you dont have any right I am own like slavery or something like that like he own Libya his ownhis own land his own people like slave or something like that. I do not know who what he is consider us this is he he we he changed or we cannot even we cannot talk about this and we do not have any there is no words to describe this this reaction because we put him in the the aside and we find him in the opposite side 180% opposite different in the opposit e side. he is killing people. He is killing people he is killing the Libyan people we never heard about anyone killing his own people. Ok any country prepare its army for its protection to protect its people to protect its its private property or anything that related to that country the army is responsible to protect it. but we find army that he is prepared to protect just own person or his own chair just protect him as individual and his family. There is no other people is or the people the other Libyan. The army its not its not protect the other Libyans or anything like this just the army we find it to protect just the Libyan it just Gadhafi as own children and wife and that, and because of this no one I think no one is need Gadhafi or no one will like him even if we do not if we compare the Libyan against Italian colonization they were one million and half they paid from them seven hand and fifty thousands. The half Libyan they were killed against the Italian colonization and even if he killed half or all of the people all the Libyan no one will I agree or or no discussion for Gadhafi to stay in the position or in the Libyan in the as president or as king and as anything that described himself. There is no way no one likes him even. ok I am not the Libya all of the event happened and I were outside of the Libya, at least when I watch the news, I saw many things are different I do not know what the Libyan or the rebels that fighting against him what they seek, how they fight with him as they told us he hired some others. Some other fighters from outside he prepared himself before. that mean he prepare for this time and he expect Libyans to do this. Hasan: let me ask question as you Libyan or you citizenship and have experience a bout that situation in Libya before this political crisis. Do you know or do you live in why or why this is demonstration or this is or the reasons basic reasons to demonstration against Gadhafi right now. Saad: I think the basic reasons for that demonstration against Gadhafi. If we look to it it is there is I think no ask for for him to to leave no one told them just I want to say my opinion publically. To use the the journals everything that we need just democratic democracy just freedom. ok you want to stay as president or as the leader or what every he called himself ok thats fine what we need to live as people. We need to feel to feel as people we need to feel as someone who is who has the rights he can he can say his opinion publically and no one w ill attack him. We cannot we need to able to say no this is not right to anyone, but when we when we ask him him for that no you dont have this right and since we dont have this right, you do not have also the right stay as our governor. Hasan: you mean the basic reason to this demonstration is against Gadhafi the civil rights, freedom speech and freedom writing and the basically rights for people or personal right for

 people I think this about explanation but let us conclude this interview about your experience in United States compared with your life in middle east fast, as new comer in United States first time in your life. Saad: I think I can conclude this this in just one or two sentences before we I came to the when I was in Libya I thought this is the life for me, should I leave I agreed with it, but when we came to the United States I find there is also another way of life there is many types of way of life the people they can live there is something that call freedom of speech people able able to have and we dont in Libya. I have to right to ask for that where is it? why we do not have it?, this is one the reason basic for that and many just the civil rights all civil rights I found it in the United States and this is we never heard about it in Libya. This is .. I think one one of the my experience there is something we do not know and the people who never lift Libya they will never heard about it, maybe just in this moment of time when they demonstrate against Gadhafi. I think they ask about what does it mean freedom of speech, what does mean freedom democracy when they ask about it maybe they will know and if they live it they will never leave it. Hasan: okay, all in in the Gadhafis green books your theory has he cla imed in Libya there is democracy and Libya the unique country among the countries around the world. Is that true in your mind as you live in Libya? Saad: I think that is the his the world third theory just what he called it just this is as frame to Libya and he never live in that frame. he always above any frame. His theory there is no frame for him, and that is the frame the Libyan lived in. and for me that is as we know it is there is nothing call also there is no constitution and we never heard about country without constitution. for any country to be recognized in the United Nation one of its one of the condition to have that country have constitution. He since 1973 he said all the laws is stopped working, there is no no law working and there is no constitution. And because of that since that mean there no frame for him and when there is no frame, the frame just put it for the Libyan and he has no frame there is nothing can control him. He can do anything to for his position as president or as leader or as anything. Hasan: finally, Mr. Saad Amhemd. I thank you for interviewing with you and thank you for cutting your time for me. I thank you so much about this in interview.