Bradley Academy Museum Oral History Project Dr.

Martha Norkunas, Project Director

Interviewee: Edward (Shannon) Blackman Interviewer: Abby Hathaway Date of interviews: May 21, 2012 Place: Bradley Academy Museum and Cultural Center Recording Format: Marantz PDM 660 Digital Recorder with Electro-Voice RE-50 Dynamic Omni-directional mic,.wav format.16bit, 44, 1kHz Creator of Abstract: Hasan Karayam Abstract: Over the course of the interview, Mr. Blackman describes his memories in Murfreesboro and some other states which he lived there such as Virginia. The interview started by describing his genealogy including his grandmother and their memories with her in the cotton fields during his early years. Then, Mr. Blackman details his memories of going to school at Bradley Academy and Holloway high school. He enumerates several teachers who taught him in the 1940s and the 1950s. He also describes his memories during summer times and how was spend them by working as delivery grocery or by working in MTSU cafeteria and his trips to other states to work on a tobacco farms, including Birmingham, Alabama, Atlanta, Georgia, and Simsbury, Connecticut . He also depicts his memories in enjoying times to play softball at the Third Ward with his friends from the same age and his trips to Columbia, Pulaski, and Nashville to play games with different teams. After his graduation from high school, Mr. Blackman recounts his memories when decided to join to the Army in 1960 through 1963. He got basic training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina then at Arlington, Virginia where he was worked at the Pentagon assisting Chief of staff Intelligence therefore he was thought by his friends that he worked as spy but he did not. After he completed his service he come back to Murfreesboro and got married in 1965. Then, he continues to describing the most common station in his life at Murfreesboro by working at VA hospital for 33 years until he retired in 1996. During this time 1963-1996, he decided to go back to school several times; in 1970 become a registered nurse and got his license in the same year, 1977 got his BS, and in 1980 graduation from Vanderbilt and got his MSN. Mr. 1

Blackman describes his life with his family and how he was memories with his old brother, sister, and parents and their moving from Academy Street to College Street then to Jackson for bigger house, especially after his sisters marriage that lived with them with her husband. He also point to his father job that was worked on railroad as laid tracks. He also describes his memories in a church which was Cherry Grove Missionary Baptist Church on Sevier Street that he went with his mother and grandmother in the1950s. Mr. Blackman describes in more details how he got married and how he did meet her wife first time and their wedding day, and her job at Somesonite for 31 when she got retired. The interview was concluded by his talking about his favorite food and holidays.

Bradley Academy Museum Oral History Project Dr. Martha Norkunas, Project Director
Interviewee: Edward (Shannon) Blackman Interviewer: Abby Hathaway Date of interviews: May 21, 2012 Place: Bradley Academy Museum and Cultural Center Recording Format: Marantz PDM 660 Digital Recorder with Electro-Voice RE-50 Dynamic Omni-directional mic,.wav format.16bit, 44, 1kHz Recording Length: 1hour, 39 minutes, 25 second Creator of Biographical Notes: Hasan Karayam Biographical Notes Edward Blackman was born on December 4, 1938, Murfreesboro, Tennessee. He grew up at Murfreesboro in the bottoms (African American neighborhood). His biographical presented the life of African American community at Murfreesboro. He was a student at Bradley Academy School and graduated from Holloway high school in 1956. After his graduation, he studied one year at Tennessee State University (TSU) then worked in different places, such as Rutherford Hospital and Meddle State University (MTSU) cafeteria. As any American citizenship he decided to join the Army in 1956. He spent three years in the army 1960-1963. He did his basic training in Fort Jackson, South Carolina. After that, he worked in Fort Myer, Virginia. During that time he was assigned in the Pentagon assisting Chief Staff of intelligence for 32 months at Arlington, Virginia. When he came back he worked at the VA in the psychiatric ward for 33 years until he retired in 1996. During his working at VA, he decided to go back to school in 1967. He involved in the nursing class and graduated in 1970. He became a registered nurse and got his license in the same year. In 1974 he decided again to go back to school. This time he got his BS and graduated in 1977. For his job he decided to go back to school for the third time in 1978. He studied his MSN at Vandy and graduated from there in 1980.

Bradley Academy Museum Oral History Project Unedited Transcript Interviewee:Edward (Shannon)Blackman Interviewer:Abby Hathaway Date of Interview:May 21, 2012 Place:Bradley Academy Museum and Cultural Center Recording Format: 16 bit, 44.1 kHz uncompressed digital mono .wav file recorded using a Marantz PMD660 Digital Audio Recorder, Lapel microphones. Recording Length: 1 hours, 39 minutes, 25 seconds. Transcriber:Audio Transcription Center Abby Hathaway: This is Abby Hathaway. I'm here with Edward (Shannon) Blackman at Bradley Academy Museum and Cultural Center in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. It is May 21st, 2012. This is the Bradley Academy Oral History Project under the direction of Dr.Martha Norkunas for Bradley Academy and Middle Tennessee State University. Mr. Blackman, do I have your permission to record this interview? Edward (Shannon) Blackman: You do.

AH: Thank you. So to begin Id like to ask you how far back in your genealogy can you go? ESB: I went back to my grandfather who, on my dads side. I did not know him because he died, I think, in 1938 but I do remember my grandmother. Matter of fact, she died when I was a freshman in high school so I do remember her. And I remember my father. He died when I was in service. And my mother just died in 1999. AH: So you said you know something about your grandmother. Is it your maternal or your paternal grandfather? ESB: My paternal. My dads mother. And the genealogy that I did was on my dads side (Mr. Blackman researched his genealogy for the Wisdom of the Elders Exhibit, a

program partnering Patterson Park Community Center in Murfreesboro, Tennessee with Vanderbilt University). They said that to do both of your parents it's just too much at one time so I went back to my grandfather who was my dads dad. And I do remember my grandmother and I remember where she lived on Lee Street and I remember her getting sick and her coming to live with us when we lived on Jackson Street. I come from the part of town that is referred to as Third Ward, which is straight down this Academy Street about, I guess, a mile down. We stayed at 604 Academy Street and we walked Academy Street to come to here to Bradley when I was going to school. And I remember that. I remember the days that we did come to school. It was a small community over there and we would, there would be ten, 11, 12 of us kids that would come to school every morning that would walk Academy Street to come to school here at Bradley. AH: So do you remember any stories about your grandmother or that your grandmother told you? ESB: No. Really I dont. But I do remember that in the fall time we would go pick cotton with her, my older brother and my older sister, and it was a joy for us to be out on Saturday going to pick cotton because we felt like we would earn us some money. And I think I remember cotton being $3 a hundred and all three of us couldn't get the 100 pounds of cotton a day on Saturday but we did go, I remember that. And those were some times that I do remember with my grandmother. AH: So how much money would you make off of the cotton picking?

ESB: Well, we didn't get 100 pounds so we had to divide it three ways but if we got over 50 cents that was a lot of money to us back during that time, you know. We could go to the movies off of a dime, you know, so it was to have 50, 60 cents in our pockets were considered quite a bit of money. AH: So what would you do with the money?

ESB: Oh, wed, you know, buy something and there were two or three neighborhood stores and we always go and buy something at the stores. Popsicles, Coca-Colas, you know, whatever, candy, whatever it was there. But it was nice to have a little spending money of our own. AH: Where would you go shopping for those things?

ESB: There were three [5:00], maybe four neighborhood stores that was right in Third Ward that we would go to. I can remember three. Well, I remember five because there was two on Academy Street, one of the corner of Colton and another one up on Jackson 5

and one on Forest Street. There were just neighborhood grocery stores that we went to. They always would have candy for us, popsicles, Coca-Colas. AH: And you were talking about walking to school here at Bradley. What were your memories of going to school here at Bradley? ESB: Well, I went here for my first five years and I remember we played in the back, we had some swings that was back there. We would swing on the swings and we played tag and, you know, just games. And I remember there was an entrance from the inside of the school to the back of the school and it was only one entrance that way and that was through the boys rest room. The girls had a rest room on one side, the boys on the other. Right in the middle of that downstairs was the water fountain so we always come out to get the water fountain. But whenever recess was we would always go out of the front door. We didn't go out the back door through the rest room but we always come out the front door here. And we had an enjoyable time. Our teachers stayed close by. One stayed in the house next door and one stayed across the street and another one stayed, one of the teachers, two of the teachers stayed in Third Ward, Miss Lilybelle Whitaker and Miss Jones, Miss Sadie Jones. She stayed up there with her sister. I think her name was Williams, I believe, but they stayed up in Third Ward on Forest Street. But I remember one time we were in the third or fourth grade and our teacher at the end of the school year, she treated us to a party which was, she lived across the street and we had ice cream, you know, we just had a fun day that day. It was really enjoyable that end of school year, she treated us, ice cream. I remember that. AH: Was there anything else at that party that you did that you remember?

ESB: (laughter) It's been a long time. (Laughter) I do remember her. We had the ice cream and ice cream cones, that's what I remember that she served us. She put, I think it was homemade ice cream and put it in the cones, so that was really enjoyable. But I can't remember what else we did but I do remember the ice cream. AH: Did any of the teachers really, were any of them really important to you, did they play any special role? ESB: I think all of the teachers here at Bradley did. My first grade teacher, Miss Sadie Jones, and I remember the second grade teacher, Mrs. Lord, or Mrs. Glanton. She played, I think, a great part in my life. She was a (laughter), she had a little, I guess, ruler and if you didn't do right you got a spanking. I remember her for that. And Mrs. Green, who was Professor Greens wife, Professor Green was the principal at Holloway,

she taught me the third grade and she allowed me to draw on the bulletin board. Each month we would change the bulletin board, a little part of it, and she allowed me to put a couple of my drawings on the bulletin board. I remember her for that, Mrs. Green. But they all had your interest in mind. They corrected you and if that didn't help then you would hear about it when you got home because they would [10:00] pass the word to the parents what, you know, has taken place. So it was a good learning experience here at Bradley. AH: Do you ever remember getting corrected by your parents for something you did at school? ESB: Oh, for, I'm not, I dont think I did that much at school that I got corrected but I knew that if you did do anything that it would be home by the time you got there from school, so I was trying to be, what you say, a good boy. I dont think I was disciplined but once or twice when I was in school. I do remember one time there was an incident where one of the, I think I was in the third grade, second grade one, I picked up a stick and threw it at a fellow because he was, I guess, being a bully and hit him in the nose and start his nose to bleeding and that reached home by the time I got there and I think I got punished here for doing that. But basically I think I was a good student here at Bradley. AH: Is there anything else, the lunchroom or particular classes?

ESB: The lunchroom I remember was along that side of the wall and the fifth grade class was over here and I think this was a fourth or fifth grade class here in this room. But we had, I didn't remember anything particular about lunchtime. We all had good meals, I think. We enjoyed the, I remember Mrs. Pinkerton was one of the cooks here, I do remember that, and Mrs. Crockett. I remember her because she stayed up the road from me on Academy Street, her and her husband stayed up there. Mrs. Crockett. But the enjoyable thing about school was I guess that you would come in and do your work, go out for recess, come back in, do your work and before you know it, it would be time to go home again. AH: So did you like home better than school?

ESB: I, what is that, home better than school? Well, when we got home we had chores to do in the wintertime and in the summertime we enjoyed ourself, we played in the neighborhood, but I think I enjoyed school just as much as home. AH: What sorts of chores did you have to do?

ESB: In the wintertime we had to be sure to bring in the coal, be sure we had enough kindling to start the fire if one was needed. And it wasn't that hard because we had, in the back of the house we had what we call a coal house where they would bring coal in and we would get it in the bucket, a scuttle, and bring it in the house so we have enough to do. But in the springtime or summertime we just enjoyed being out. We didn't have that many chores to do. Even though my mother did have a little garden in the back of the, I think that's where I got some of my habits of trying to having a garden was from her. AH: Did you ever help her with the garden?

ESB: Oh, yes, oh, yes. We planted green beans and tomatoes and what else did we have? Potatoes? We planted some potatoes out there. Wasnt a big garden but the beans did well, beans did well there. AH: And what sorts of things [15:00] did you do when you were out enjoying yourself in the spring and summer? ESB: In the spring and in the summer. Well, on every weekend when I a teenager we went down and played softball. Every Sunday afternoon we went down and played softball on what is Lokey Avenue now. It was Commercial then, off of Memorial? Right in there where Memorial and Lokey Lane, Lokey meet, there was two or three houses and we used to play softball in the front yard. Did that every summer for three or four summer. There was some people that lived there that we played ball with, about four or five families, and wed come down from Third Ward and play softball in their yard and that was one of the enjoyable things I did. I remember that as being one of the highlights of my teenage years was playing softball in the front yard up there. AH: Did you play with, the other children that you played with, were they all from the Third Ward? ESB: They were. Third Ward involved Academy Street, Jackson, Colon, Lee Street and mostly people were from that side of town. When you got across Main Street we considered Sixth Ward over here but most of the people that we played with were from Third Ward or from Lokey Lane. That was kids there that was our same age that played softball. AH: So we talked about Bradley. What about Holloway?

ESB: Holloway? Okay. Well, I left Bradley and went to the Annex,which I consider, now that I look back, was the first concept of a middle school. We had the sixth, seventh and eighth grade there and this was back in 19 and 50, I guess, that I went. 8

And it was a little small building that had four classrooms in it and I remember being in the sixth grade there and started playing in the band. My teacher was Mr. Dons, he was the band director so I started playing the trombone when I was in the sixth grade. And seventh and eighth grade I was there also in the Bradley Annex and then I went to high school, Holloway, which was right next door. Because we ate lunch, the people that was at Bradley ate lunch at Holloway because it was on just a four-room building there. And I remember Holloway. My freshman year was an exciting time. You know, being in high school is always a good time. I do remember one thing, that we had a good football team and each year we would raise money for the queen. Each class would raise money, we would sell tickets and the class that sold the most tickets, their candidate would be queen. During our freshman year we had a queen and during our senior year we had a queen. I think it was the only class come through Holloway where the senior class was outdone by a freshman class. So we had two queens out of our four years in high school. And that was an enjoyable time too because we all wanted to make our queen be the winner, make our candidate be the winner, and we did. We were lucky to have two queens. They call her Miss Holloway, which was significant for us. And I played on the basketball team, I remember. Started that when I was a freshman. Played in the band also. [20:00] And enjoyed the trips that the band made and even enjoyed the trips that the basketball team made. AH: What sorts of trips did you take?

ESB: Well, we would go on football game trips and I remember the band always would try to go to football. A lot of times we didn't go to every football game but we did go to, we played the team from Columbia and played the team from Pulaski, played the team from, we went to Nashville to play Haynes High School and Cameron. Cameron was high school then and we went there to play football against them. But I do remember one band trip we went to Fayetteville to play in their fair, my first experience in seeing a county fair. I mean it was big. They had horse races with the -not horse races, harness races, going around the track. My first experience of that, so that was exciting. You know, being in high school going to Fayetteville, Tennessee and seeing that. What else about high school? Oh, I do remember one incident in high school. I got in a little trouble (laughter) a little trouble, I think. The football team had won the championship and we thought that they should receive jackets, you know, with their names and everything. They wasn't going to get them so a group of us decided to boycott the school. We went partying at somebodys house and principal wanted us to make up those days and I didn't go to make them up on Saturday so I got put back out of class. I failed the whole semester and had to go and retake in the fall. My junior year 9

I had to take my freshman, my sophomore year again. But I was able to pick it up. I did and I graduated on time. So that taught me one thing, that you can't follow other peoples lead. You never know what's going to happen so you have to make up your own mind about things like that. It was a big bunch of us, I mean maybe 25 or 30 of us decided not to come to school. And he was nice, Mr. Stevens was nice, he was going to make us make it up on a Saturday but I decided not to go because I was working a parttime job. I delivered groceries in the afternoon and on Saturday so I thought it was more important for me to go to work than to come to school, but now I know different. Should have come on to school. But like I said, I made it up even though I had to go back and take a lot of, that whole year I was sitting in the class. But it was a learning experience for me, very much so. AH: Do you know why they weren't going to get those jackets?

ESB: Well, I think they said they didn't have the money. And so I dont know but the football players were angry and I guess we thought that they deserved the jackets and so we decided to boycott school. We went partying over some girls house over on, in Clarktown, so, but it didn't turn out to our best, at least not to my best anyway. I think the most of the other kids went to class on Saturday, went to school. But that was a learning experience for me. AH: You said that you worked in high school?

ESB: Yeah. I had a part time job delivering groceries from a neighborhood store. [25:00] I rode a bicycle, had a big basket on it, put the groceries in the front and delivered them. This store was over on Church Street. He had moved from across in front of us when we stayed on Academy. He had moved the store over on Church Street. And my brother actually worked for him before I did but my brother went off to service though. He asked me if I would work and I did. I worked there for a couple of summers and after school. AH: About how much money did you make?

ESB: A couple of dollars a week. You know, it was, I can't remember really. I didn't make that much money. Maybe four, five, six dollars. It wasn't that much. Because I got another job working during my senior year at WMTS, the radio station that used to be? I think WMTS is at MTSU now, is that right? Anyway it was a radio station right down the road here and I worked there. I went in and worked an hour a day and I cleaned up and emptied the waste can and took out the trash and, you know, little things like that. I worked there until I graduated from high school for, I think I worked there about a year. And I graduated from high school in 1956.

10

During that summer I went to Simsbury, Connecticut to work on a tobacco farm. My intentions were to go to Morehouse College in Atlanta. Some recruiter had come up and spoke to us about going and we could work that summer in Simsbury, Connecticut. So I did. I took the, went to Atlanta and got on a train and went up the eastern seaboard and I spent three months in Simsbury, Connecticut working on a tobacco farm. And that was an experience. That was an experience. The tobacco was about that high when we got there and over our heads when we left. And it was cigar tobacco. The leaves would grow long and we would have to, once it got big we would have to pull it out, lay it in I guess a container where the people would pull it out to the end of the row. We were pickers and they were, whatever they were called. I can't remember now what they were called. But we picked tobacco, at least worked there for three months in Simsbury, Connecticut. And that was an experience because I also met a lot of different people. I met a lot of people from Birmingham, Alabama and Atlanta. And you know, I'm a country boy, Murfreesboro, Tennessee, and there was a lot of, you know, the people from Birmingham was more hip than the people from Atlanta so here I was right in the middle. But it was a good learning experience for me. I really enjoyed those three months in Simsbury, Connecticut. AH: You said you were, were you being recruited to go to Morehouse?

ESB: Yes. Morehouse College. And while I was up in Simsbury, Connecticut I found out that I actually did not want to be that far from home. I wanted to go to TSU [Tennessee Statue University]. So I changed my mind, got me an application, filled it out and sent it to Tennessee State A&I and I was admitted to there. I just felt like me being a Tennessee boy I needed to be in Tennessee. So I did. [30:00] I went to school there for a year and funds got low and I didn't, so I went to work after that. AH: Where did you work?

ESB: I worked at, where did I work? At Rutherford Hospital for awhile. It was Rutherford Hospital then and I worked at MTSU, worked in the cafeteria there. And I worked until I decided to join the Army. I joined the Army in May of 1960. Spent three years in the Army. And that was another experience, the Army. I did my basic training in South Carolina, Fort Jackson, and came home for a couple of weeks, went back to Fort Jackson, did my advanced training there, took up typing, became a clerk typist. So that's where I learned my typing skills. I learned that in high school but I just improved on them. And when I was reassigned after I got out of that I went to Fort Myer, Virginia and worked, did an assignment in the Pentagon assisting Chief of Staff of Intelligence. And I was there for 32 months in Arlington, Virginia. Some people may think that I was a spy because I worked for the Assistant Chief of Staff of Intelligence but I actually wasn't. I worked in the Pentagon. Know a couple of people may have 11

been spies but I dont think anybody would ever admit that they were a spy. That was a good assignment. Someone has said that that was probably the best assignment for a US soldier, being around the Washington DC area. And the military district of Washington, what it was, that was the cemetery in the center of the post and the north post housed the troops that guarded the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and the south post housed the people that worked in the Pentagon. So I was in the south post and the cemetery was right there in the middle. It was a good assignment. And during the summertime in Washington DC we played softball in the summertime, going back to softball again, and we would go into Washington DC sometime on Friday, Saturday night and walk across the bridge and catch the bus and go visiting. They had a lot of shows. Sometimes the US Marine Corps Band would be on the Potomac River, wed listen to those in the summertime. So it was interesting. We visited, I did see the Mona Lisa that was there. I can't remember exactly what year it was but they had brought her picture from France, I think, where it is, and it was on display and I did get to see it. It was about from here to maybe that wall or further but it was a picture, that's as close as we got. And it's a lot of interesting things to see around Washington DC that we did. We saw a lot of. Did a lot of walking and saw the Capitol and, you know, saw a lot of other stuff, but it was an interesting tour of duty there for 32 months. And in Washington DC when it snows the whole town shuts down. Just amazing. Traffic just gets jammed because it's so many people that's working there in Washington, they had to get them out. *35:00+ So lets see, that takes care of 1963. (laughter) After service I came back and went to work at a couple places. Then I got hired at the VA and I worked there for 33 years. First year I was hired on I got married, 1965, so I been married for 47 years. My wife and I celebrated our 47th wedding anniversary last week. We have two daughters, two girls. And lets see, oh, I need to tell about going back to school, dont I? Thats all included in that. I went to work at the VA, went back to school in 67, going to school part time and working full time. Went in the nursing class of 68 and graduated in 1970 and passed state boards and became a registered nurse, got my license 1970. From 1970 to 74 I was working, then I decided to go back to school, went back to school and graduated, got my BS in 77. 78 I decided to go back to school (laughter). I have a friend that said that's all I did was go to school. (laughter) Went back to school and went to Vandy, got my MSN in 1979 with graduation in 19, that summer of 80.

12

I worked in the psychiatric ward which at that time the VA was mostly psychiatric patients. They had a medical floor for the infirm but most of it at that time was for psychiatric patients. And I worked the admission ward, got a lot of training in admissions, bringing people in and getting them well enough to go back out home. And there after I had worked the wards in 1986 I put in for this job in the outpatient clinic, which I got. And I told someone it was just like dang going to heaven. No more Saturday work, no more Sunday work, no more evening shifts or night shift. Monday through Friday eight to five. So if you ever work the evening shift or night shift you know what it is to work days. You do know. (laughter) Okay. AH: So lets backtrack a little bit. I hate to switch channels on you too much but since we want to make sure that we talk about it, we'll come back to your work, but what was your childhood home like? ESB: It was, my father worked on the railroad and he was gone from Sunday I guess to Friday. My mother was the disciplinarian. So if we got in trouble then you would have to go get a switch and if it wasn't big enough you had to go back and get another one. You know, if you think that you're going to get a whuppin you bring in something like that off the tree, you know. But if that wasn't big enough, Go back and get me a switch, she would say. *40:00+ So my home life was good. I was there with my older brother and my older sister and it was good. I think it was a good life with my mother. Like I said, my father worked on the railroad and he was gone, mostly from Sunday to, Sunday night he would go leave and come back on Friday evening. And my mother worked outside the house. She worked for a family, you know, she cooked for them, raised their kids. I guess a domestic servant is what she would be referred to. But I think it was a good life. We didn't have much but I could say that we never did go hungry. AH: What was the house like?

ESB: Oh, it was referred to at that time as a shotgun house, where you could open the front door -- you heard that expression? Well, we lived in two rooms. The front room and the kitchen area and both rooms to me was about the same size. We had a kitchen stove and we had the kitchen table in there and we also had the bed in the kitchen. So had two beds in the front part of the house and my sister and my brother and I slept in the same bed. So it was a good experience. And then there was, I think, we stayed on Academy Street. We moved off Academy and went to College Street where we had three rooms, then we moved back to Jackson Street which was right around the corner from Academy, and we had four rooms. So each move things got better. But when we moved on Jackson Street my sister had got married so that meant, you know, her husband was there. And my older brother had came from the service and he was 13

staying there too. So but my childhood, I think, was, it was a good life. I can't have any regrets now (laughter) not after having it pass through, but it was enjoyable. AH: You said that you moved to bigger homes. Was it because your family was making more money? ESB: No, I think that the situation just prevailed itself where we were able to move. You know, like I said, the house on Academy Street was just two rooms and the house on College was three rooms, which meant that we had a little more room, and then the house on Jackson was four rooms. So we were able to just better ourselves, I think, just a little by moving, improved our situation. AH: And your dad wasn't around very much?

ESB: No, he wasn't. Like I said, he worked on the railroad and he would be gone from Sunday or early Monday morning to Friday afternoon when he come in. AH: Do you know what he did for the railroad?

ESB: Laid tracks, you know. Be sure that everything was, you know, working in working order. AH: Did he ever tell you anything about what that was like for him?

ESB: No, he never did. Never did. Didn't talk much about his work. Matter of fact, I just learned from one of the fellows that he worked with how good he was about his work, how, you know, dedicated he was to be sure that everything was right. When I was trying to do the genealogy I knew that this fellow had and I asked him about, you know, certain things [45:00] and he told me that he was always, you know, concerned about doing the work like it was supposed to be done. AH: And your mom, did she ever bring home any stories about being a domestic?

ESB: Lets see, I dont think she, well, I knew that one family that she had helped raise, you know, the kids were there and she would be there, you know, during the daytime and she would be sure that they had supper before she left and everything to come home to us. But no things that I can remember that she talked about. AH: And what can you tell me about your church?

ESB: OK, (laughter) my church. I belong to Cherry Grove Missionary Baptist Church which is about eight, nine, ten, maybe 12 miles from here out Salem Pike. And the reason why I'm in that church is because my neighbor that stayed on the corner, they 14

were there and they moved into the house right next to us and they had a bus that would come by and pick them up and take them to church, so I like to ride the bus so I got on the bus (laughter) and we went to go to Sunday school and also go to church. So I joined the church out there and I've been there ever since. Been a long time, so long I can't remember when it was. 19 and [long pause] well, it was in the 50s. I'll have to remember back when it was. But I've been there a long time, I've been there over 60 years ago. I was 13, yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I was 13 when I joined so it's been a long time. And I had went to church with my mother and also I went with my grandmother. My grandmother went to the church right down here on Sevier Street close to the Bottoms, I guess, and I would go to church with her there. And my mother went to church, she went to Primitive Baptist Church too but she went to church at, out on the old Nashville Highway, Ebenezer Primitive Baptist Church, and I used to go to church with her, but when I was 13, you know, I'm thinking hey, I could do this on my own so I started riding the bus to Cherry Grove and when they had revival one summer I decided to join the church, and I did. AH: What can you tell me about your grandmothers church?

ESB: I can't really tell much, that much about her church. I do remember it being on Sevier Street right down here and I do remember going and I remember in the summertime it being hot and we were, the kids sometimes would go out and play in the back when we were supposed to having church and the windows would be open. I remember we could hear from, with the windows being open, I remember that. Not that much though, but I do remember going with her there, Mount Zion. AH: Did you go to a lot of church activities with your mom before you decided to go your own way? ESB: No, I didn't. I went to, well, I would go sometimes to her on Sunday and sometimes what they would call special days, homecoming, foot washing. The Primitive [50:00] Baptists have a special day where they wash each others feet and they call it foot washing. That's in the Bible where you're supposed to wash each others feet and they had that special day each year where they would. Those was the time that, you know, and homecoming, homecoming would be a special day where all the people would come back and they would bring food and spread it out on the church grounds. That would be an enjoyable time. All the families would have tables set out, you could eat from, you know, different, you wouldn't eat from different tables but you could, if somebody had a piece of pie or something that you saw, you could ask, they would give it to you. Homecoming was always a special day at church. And it still is. It's a special day at Cherry Grove too.

15

AH:

So you decided to go to Cherry Grove just because you like the ride the bus?

ESB: (laughter) Well, I think I did. It was, plus my neighbor, he was a good friend of mine so he invited me. And I just got in the habit of going to Cherry Grove. And I guess I would have probably joined church somewhere else but I just decided, you know, it was a good time, we had a good time. Him and I was real good buddies. That's probably one reason why I joined too. AH: Did you make other friends while you were there? Do you think that might have had something to do with it? ESB: I did because when I was going to go into the freshman class at Holloway and some of my classmates at, you know, school from the Annex, they were members of Cherry Grove too so that helped a lot. You know, I knew a lot of folks that was there. Its not like I was going into a strange environment. I knew a lot of people that were there. A lot of the young people anyway. Got to know the older members of the church. AH: This is a completely different topic but what, are there any memories that you have of dealing with whites in Murfreesboro before the end of segregation? ESB: Have some good memories and I have some bad memories. (Laughter) Where we lived on Academy Street we only stayed two or three houses from some white neighbors and they had some young kids that were also our age, my brothers and sisters, and we became friends. Matter of fact, one of my friends, his daddy was a race car driver so he learned to be a race car driver and I was just relating just last couple of weeks about how he took me to the race track and the stock car? You may not, it's racing is different than it used to be but they used to have stock cars they would race and he got in that car and him and I was there and we went around this track and I swore then I never would ride again with him. (Laughter) But we were, like I said, we were neighbors and we played together, but there were some other incidents where we played football, not down on Lokey Lane but over on Church Street close to where I worked, you know, I worked at the store? And there was a couple of people that we played with [55:00] that got to be real good friends, I knew them well. I'm trying to think of some incidents. But back during the time when I was coming up we were aware of what we could do, where we could not go and you just watched out for that. I mean we knew that if we went to the movies we had to go to the side door and sit upstairs. We knew that when 16

we went to the department store and wanted a drink of water there was two fountains. There was one that said colored and one that said white. So what you do, you would slip and if nobodys looking youd drink out of the white fountain. You know, we kids, we did that, you know. But I dont really think that we actually had any trouble before integration, at least I did not have any trouble before integration took place. And like I said, you know, we came to Bradley and this was a black school. We knew that, you know. When we went to high school we didn't come this way, we went the other way, and we passed Central High. At least we wasn't going to Central High, we was going to Holloway. So I dont really think that I understood at that time, you know, being separate, what it actually meant. AH: You mentioned the movie theater. Were there any other places where you knew the protocol, you couldn't do certain things? ESB: There was a drug store uptown that served ice cream cones and we could not come in and buy an ice cream cone and sit in at the table. We knew that and I did hear one remark one time, a lady said, I wish they could go take their business to the Minx Slide. The Minx Slide was the area off of Maple Street where the black folks were. There was a caf and a barber shop and pool room there. So I did hear that. She apparently didn't want our business so we just moved on. But those kind of things back during that day, it was out of place but you sort of rolled with the flow. AH: do? Do you remember how you learned what you were and were not supposed to

ESB: I think I learned from other people. I learned from my older brother and sister, learned from my mother and my daddy. You know, he would tell us things to do and what not to do, so I think that's how I learned. Not really from trying it on our own but you know, the water in the water fountain from the one that was labeled white tastes the same as the one from the colored. AH: So shift a little bit forward. I know you moved around a little bit from what you've told me, being in the service, going to Connecticut, so when you came back to Murfreesboro and you set up house with your wife what has your home life been with her, like what has it been like? ESB: It's been enjoyable, you know. Like I said, we've had our ups and downs, as married couples do. She sometimes thinks that she knows as much as I do and I said, No, you dont. (laughter) *60:00+ Matter of fact, she told me the other day, she said, I wanted to tell you that you were right. I said, Yeah, after 40 some years. (laughter) So but it has been a good marriage, I think. Like I said, we have two kids

17

and we sometimes brag on them because none of them has been in jail. (Laughter) Which is, you know, sometimes you have to just look at that situation that they were not, have not been in any type of trouble where they, and my oldest daughter is married. Shes married and shes a minister and hes married and he is a minister and they live over in Brentwood and my oldest daughter is, that's my oldest daughter. My oldest daughter is an instructor at MTSU. You met her, yeah? I think you did, yeah. Shes an instructor at MTSU. So like I said, I feel that it's been a good life, married life. And I would tell anybody to get married. It helps. It helps the sanity, believe it or not. It does. AH: Your house, if you've lived in multiple houses can you tell me about those?

ESB: Lived in a three room house when I first got married. And had a living room, bedroom and a kitchen. And I shared a bath with another family. This was what's called, I guess, duplex where we shared the bath. And that was one situation that I would not advise anybody to do. (laughter) And then we moved then and we actually moved into a smaller place but we had our own bath, which was great. And then I bought a house and we stayed there for, how long did we stay there? I think about 13 years. And then we got a chance to build a house, so we did, we built a house. So we stay out in the county now, built a house there and been there for 20 something years. 25, I think. Maybe 82 when we moved. So that was, we probably built the house because when I was going to school I committed that we were going to do better than we were, and we did. Which was a good investment, I think, when we built the house. My wife is a housekeeper and a cook. She loves to keep house and she loves to cook. I'm very proud of her. Shes been a good mother for the kids, been a good wife to me, so I'm proud of her. AH: You said you wanted to do better when you built that house. Where were you living, what was it like, the house that you lived in for 13 years? ESB: It was not, I'll do better I guess with saying we wanted something that we could say that we did because we had moved from other houses where other people had, you know, had before. So we wanted to build our own house so this is what I meant when I said to do better. And it was better because we had, even though we had the last place we lived where we had room enough but we just decided to build our own house. My wife [65:00] set out the measurement, her and I drew up the plans, she measured this to be sure that the couch would fit there and she was really into it, placing everything where it was. AH: So your wife, did she go to school?

18

ESB: She graduated from high school. She was working when we got married but she did not go to college. She had, I guess she didn't have time with me going all the time. (Laughter) But she worked at Samsonite, the luggage place? She worked and she did, she worked there for 31 years. Yeah, when the last child was born she decided that she needed to get to work so she did, she went to Samsonite and she retired from there. Well, after they closed the plant everybody retired. They moved out of town. AH: How did the two of you meet?

ESB: Through my sister. Her and my sister was very good friends. So she always tell people, my sister told us that, Id like for you to meet my brother. So we met. We would be out some place and we met. So we got to dating each other and I guess after about seven, eight months I proposed. I guess it was a short time anyway. And then in three or four months, we had a short engagement, we got married. AH: What can you tell me about your wedding day?

ESB: My wedding day we got married at my house. It was a house wedding. It was sunny. It was a day that's sort of like today, it was May the ninth, I remember that. And the minister came and performed the wedding. It was just a family wedding, wasn't that many people there. Not like these elaborate weddings they have now. (Laughter) But it was a memorable day. AH: Who was there?

ESB: Oh, my sister and my brother and her mother was deceased so her aunt and uncle were there. And her nephew was there and her aunt lived right across the street from us, she was there. And like I said, my sisters and brothers, my mother. My niece was there, I think. It was a small wedding. Wasn't that big, but it was, it's a good day. AH: Do you remember what you ate?

ESB: No, I dont. (laughter) Probably not anything. Lets see, but I do remember for our wedding night we went to [Sufferdale?], you remember Sufferdale? Was the baseball park in Nashville and they had entertainment was there. The Temptations were there [70:00], a couple of other singers. So we made it an evening. We drove down to Nashville Sufferdale, but I do remember that on our wedding day, wedding night. AH: Did the guests go with you?

ESB: No, no, no. (laughter) No, it was just her and I. Just her and I.

19

AH:

Was there an act that was your particular favorite?

ESB: I think the Temptations. They were good. Now, I can't remember if Jackie Wilson was there or not. I believe he was though, but I know the Temptations were there. We had good seats too, so. AH: You have two children, you said. So do you remember the days that they were born? Can you talk about that a little bit? ESB: I remember my youngest daughter, my wife had Regina when we were married and my youngest daughter was born on a Saturday. She, my wife had told me that morning before I went to work that oh, it's getting close so I went on to work so about, got home that evening about 4:30, she said, I think I'm going to have to go. I said, No, you'll be all right. But she did, we left about 5:00 and baby was born I guess about eight. And the doctor came out, said, Well, we had a little trouble but everything is all right. So that was on a Saturday so she stayed a couple of days in the hospital I think, then she came home. It was a good day. AH: You said something about your older daughter?

ESB: Yes, my older daughter was three when we got married so after we married for, after Robin I think was born I adopted, well, in the meantime before Robin I adopted her, Regina and changed the name. Had to have the name changed and everything so she calls me daddy just like Robin does. AH: So was your relationship with her different than with your younger daughter?

ESB: No. I tried not to make it different. I tell my wife that when she was coming up, well, she thinks that when you do one for one, you've got to do one for the other. I said you can't do that because both of them are different. Regina was three and Robin was the baby and you just can't. She sometimes tried to dress them alike. (Laughter) And you know, Robin sometimes now tell her, You made me wear this dress when I was in the fourth grade and I didn't want to and it looked just like this. (Laughter) But that was something that they went through. But I tried to let her know that we were a family and I tried not to make any difference in each one of them. Even though they were different. One was three years older than the other one. AH: What was it like going to school and having children at home? You did go to school so much and worked and everything. ESB: (laughter) Well, it was sort of tense. If you worked, have you worked and went to school? You have, OK. Well, I worked, a lot of times I went to school in the

20

summertime and I would work the evening shift where I could go to school during the day. And I would get off at 12:00 and sometimes I remember I would have to go by Rutherford -- this was Rutherford Hospital which is Middle Tennessee Medical Center now. I would have to go back and check on my patient that I was going to have to have [75:00] that morning at 8:00. So I would be out there at 12:30 or 1:00 checking to see if, you know. I got through that and (laughter) but I enjoyed going to school and I enjoyed learning different things. You know, you just can't get stagnant, you have to learn. You just have to sort of know what's going on. And even though it was a task I survived. AH: Do you feel like, was your wife more of the disciplinarian more?

ESB: She was because she was there a lot of times with the kids, but the kids knew that if daddy said something, you know (laughter). But they were pretty good kids, like I bragged on them before, they were pretty good. They did get in trouble a time or two and they had to be disciplined. I remember one incident when my oldest daughter, she wanted to go to a party or something and she didn't do well in her grades and I told her, I said, You have to get these grades up so she didn't so I grounded her. And that didn't set well with her but I think she understood that daddy said, you know. So she worked a little harder next time to get her grades up. So I did have a little control of the girls. (Laughter) AH: So you became a registered nurse and then what were your other degrees?

ESB: I got a BS in general science because a lot of my basic work was around the science field. I had botany and biology and anatomy and physiology so I just got my BS in that. And then I went back to, like I said, went back to Vanderbilt in psychiatric mental health since I was working at the VA my (inaudible) was mental health. AH: What sorts of things did you deal with in the psychiatric ward?

ESB: Everything. Crisis. I think I enjoyed the seeing people come in that were, I didn't enjoy seeing them come in sick but I enjoyed seeing them move from one stage of mental illness to the other. And a lot of times the medication played a big part in that but a lot of times the individual therapy also played a part in that. And that's what we did mostly in our outpatient clinic is to be sure that they continued what was in the hospital too when they were discharged. AH: I dont suppose you can talk about any cases that stand out in your mind? Maybe somebody who was really, who you saw improve so greatly. ESB: It's, I'm trying to think. Can't think of any that I could really relate to right now. [pause] I'm just trying to think of one. I really can't pinpoint any one thing that stands 21

out right now. There was a lot of individuals [80:00] that you would see that came into the hospital and watch them get better and to return to their life, you know, to their family. A lot of the veterans were married and some of them stayed with their family. I can't think of any. Theres so many, so many, that I can't think of one in particular that I can relate this to. AH: You worked in the VA hospital so you're working with a lot of veterans. So I guess maybe we'll backtrack again. ESB: OK. AH: Because backtracking is always fun. (laughter) I asked you about your childhood and adult home life. What about, and you talked a little bit when we talked about churches about the special occasions in the churches. How about holidays? Do you have any particular memories of holidays throughout your life? ESB: I remember one Christmas when I was a kid and I can't remember how old I was, I must have been about four or five, three, four, five. I remember I got this tricycle for Christmas. I dont remember how old I was but I remember riding the tricycle through the house. Thats one thing that I do remember. And I do remember one Christmas when all of the toys stopped and I think they stopped because the idea that Santa Claus brought them, I was at the age where I should have known better. You know, there's no Santa Claus. But I think I must have been about six, seven, eight years old, I can't remember how old I was when that all stopped. There was apples and oranges and things and we used to hang up our stocking on the mantel. We used to have a mantel around the fire place and there would be apples and oranges in that, but no more toys. So I remember that. Thats a special day for Christmas. And other days, when we were young special days, Thanksgiving, we always had a turkey, Easter, we always had a ham. Always. You know, always. Summertime come, Fourth of July, we always had a watermelon, always. Always made ice cream, you know. And then that's holidays, special days that I can remember. But always Thanksgiving we had the turkey, Easter we always had ham. AH: Did you have a favorite holiday?

ESB: When I was coming up? Probably Thanksgiving, I guess, because when we were in high school Thanksgiving was the Cedar Bucket Classic and if the game wasn't here in Murfreesboro it was in Shelbyville so we would alternate. And even after I graduated from high school, went off to college, come back, working, there were still doing the Cedar Bucket Classic until I think 68 or 69 when Holloway -- and we always went to the football game on Thanksgiving so that's a special day, Thanksgiving.

22

AH:

Can you tell me a little bit more, what was the Cedar Bucket?

ESB: The Cedar Bucket was actually a cedar bucket that was, I guess, yea big and the winner of the football game got to take the cedar bucket home and put it in their [85:00] trophy collection in the high school until the next year. I think they probably have a replica of one here, I think? I think they do. But it was always a big event, Thanksgiving Day, always on Thanksgiving Day we played the football game. AH: Did all the students play or was it just the football team?

ESB: Just the football team. Holloway and Bedford County Training School in Shelbyville. AH: What about the food? Did you have a favorite holiday food?

ESB: (laughter) Probably the turkey on Thanksgiving. I'm a turkey man. I like chicken even. AH: How about, you like chicken and you like turkey, does your wife cook any special dishes? ESB: She loves to cook. She loves to cook, lets see, she loves kraut[sauerkraut] and weenies, kraut and pork chops, kraut and ribs and when we first got married, I said, You're going to kraut me out. (Laughter) I thought at least we had kraut once or twice a week but no, it was maybe once or twice a month. But anyway, she loved crout and I think we had crout, I'm going to say whinnies, crout and baloney, crout and pork chop, crout and ribs, crout and neck bones, but she was through the kraut one. Shes a good cook, I have to admit, shes a very good cook. At one time I weighed 238 pound so I (laughter) I attribute that to her. I said, You cook all this food and she said, You dont have to eat it but it taste good. She loved to do lasagna. She does lasagna well. She is, I think the lasagna is probably her biggest dish that she has. But shes a good cook, she can cook anything. Cakes, pies. We both are diabetic so we dont indulge too much in those things any more so we have to watch what we do eat. AH: What about your mom? Was there anything that she cooked that you liked especially? ESB: My mother was a good cook and I remember, and I tell people, back during those days they cooked on a stove where she would put the biscuits in and be fowls on this side and biscuits in the -- have you seen those kind of stoves? It's amazing how food can be cooked. The food would be on the fire and she could cook. My mother was a good cook. Matter of fact, she loved to cook and special days, we would call them

23

puddings where she would just beat up a cake and wed call it pudding. She would make some sauce and we would have a pudding. Not a cake, you know, not icing on the cake but a pudding and put icing on it sometimes and sometimes she would warm the sauce to put on it. But she was a good cook. AH: What was in that sauce?

ESB: A little flavoring, maybe vanilla flavoring and something to flavor the sauce up, lemon extract or something, but it would always make the pudding taste better. And lemon I say, sometimes on Sunday morning we would have fried chicken in gravy. That would be a lot of time our delicacy on Sunday morning, fried chicken and gravy. And homemade biscuits. Homemade biscuits. AH: Are you any good of a, are you a good cook at all?

ESB: No. I wouldn't starve but (laughter) I can fry an egg and open a box of cereal but I'm not a real good cook. [90:00] AH: So when did you retire?

ESB: 1956. (laughter) 1996. I had open heart surgery in 1995 and 96, January 96 (inaudible) 95 and I went back to work in March and worked part time a couple of, maybe a month and then went back full time. And then I guess maybe July some time I thoughtI need to get out of here. (laughter) So I retired the 31st of August, 1996. AH: What sorts of things do you do now that you're retired?

ESB: During the wintertime I'm a bowler. I bowl on Monday in the morning senior league and my wife now bowls on that league and then on Wednesday morning we bowl with a senior group just socializing. And then on Thursday nights we have a league that we bowl. We're on different teams on Thursday night because I was bowling with this other team I guess last 20 years or 25 years so she just started bowling about seven, eight years ago. So her and my daughter bowl together on a team now but I've been bowling with these three people, maybe four people, three I know we've been bowling 20 years together. And we have a little garden during this time of the year and we try to keep up the yard and she has her flowers. She loves her flowers. So we've been working in the flowers. And I got three tomato plants and got a tomato off of them last couple of weeks ago. I'm looking to get another one next week. Set them out real early and took a gamble and it paid off so I'm having tomatoes. And we both active in our church and she visits the nursing home. She has an aunt that's in the nursing home so she makes the rounds where she visit at least once a week. So we stay pretty

24

busy. Matter of fact, we was putting out mulch this morning around our house. (laughter) But we enjoy traveling too. When I was working I was involved in the nursing association and we would take trips off and she called it her vacation. So we go bowling trips. We used to travel a lot. We've been California, Las Vegas, Florida, Cincinnati, Texas, where else? But we've been bowling quite a bit. Like the bowling tournaments so we've been bowling. We bowled in the Nashville state tournament in Chattanooga here last month. So we stay pretty active. AH: Have you won any trophies?

ESB: Well, we did win when we were bowling in the league I won quite a bit of trophies. Matter of fact, had so many trophies that we decided to get rid of them. She said they were collecting dust so we got rid of them, broke them down. We saved a few. But I've been bowling, I guess, for 40 years and really enjoyed it and that sort of helped me with my mental health also. AH: That is very relaxing for you?

ESB: Yes, yes. AH: Were there any places that you traveled that are especially memorable? [95:00]

ESB: Well, always Reno, Nevada. I like to go there because the casinos are there. (laughter) They got the new bowling alley is there that has 150 lanes all the way across, not a post in the house and that's a good place to go and bowl. And I like to go to Florida. We went to bowl in Saint Petersburg and Tampa, we went there, and went to Mobile, Alabama, went to New Orleans. So we've just been all over to bowl. Went to bowl in Plano, Texas, believe it or not. Plano, Texas. And like I said, we bowled in Cincinnati, bowled in Dayton, Ohio. Lets see, Greenville, South Carolina, bowled there, been bowling Atlanta, Georgia, bowled in Birmingham. We just bowl all over. (Laughter) Like I said, we enjoy bowling, at least I have. This fellow used to get tournaments up and take four or five teams, be enjoyable to go. AH: Besides the bowling have you been involved in other sorts of clubs or organizations? ESB: I was involved at one time in the Elks but I decided to change and just give up my membership there. Lets see, what other things have I done? I used to be here on the Board at Bradley also, but that was real taxing believe it or not. I saw myself going and coming here at Bradley. I had the keys where I had to unlock the door and let stay

25

the people and it was just too much. I think it attributed a lot to my health problems so I had to give that up. AH: When were you on the board?

ESB: From the inception to 2002 or 2004. Yeah. I enjoyed it. Matter of fact, I've been thinking about coming back doing some volunteer work but I dont like the idea of having all that responsibility. I had to, it was just too much for me. I had to book the affairs, I had to work the affairs and I had to be sure that the building was locked up after the affairs and it was just too much so I decided to give it up. Plus I had to keep the books. That's a job within itself. Writing checks, keeping the books. AH: Is there anything else youd like to share with us about your life?

ESB: I think I've took you from birth to (laughter) to now, haven't I? Is there anything else? Did I miss anything? AH: No.

ESB: OK. AH: Well, thank you so much for coming out and doing an interview with us today. And you know, it's been great. I've learned a lot about you.

END OF AUDIO

26