David, Let me clarify a couple of things, the Adam Retort in North Carolina is the first masonry unit in the

USA and is available for viewing and operation by anyone that cares to come and do so. I am not sure that is the same for the other units. The lid of the unit did not crack, there was a steel plate in the firebox that expanded and cracked the outer brick fascia, we thought we could improve on the original design and added the plate ourselves, obviously that was a mistake. The plate has since been removed and replaced with an arch design and actually gives us more airflow through the chamber when we need it. Arch on Adam Retort Our particular unit is out in the woods, where all the feedstock is, our decision was, do we bring the unit to the feedstock or the feedstock to the unit? We have an abundant supply of feedstock that has been sitting, covered for over a year, the cost of moving all the feedstock would have cost more than the unit itself so that was a no-brainer for us. We also have thermocouples and a data logger to see exactly what the temps are inside the chamber at various points. It is a basic design, agreed, but for the cost factor and the size of our farm we would not need to spend 50K on a mobile unit. For us, its perfect, and we still use the barrel version too as we always have students coming by to learn more about the process. Thanks, Flow Farm Aberdeen, NC flowfarm.org

--- In biochar@yahoogroups.com, "David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...> wrote: > > actually, the NC adam retort is the third in the USA. > > the first was built by new england biochar in cape cod MA, is owned by ideal compost in peterborough NH, was fully metalized instead of masonry, and is transportable. picture at right. > > the second, also built by NEB, also fully metalized, also transportable, is still unsold, and operated by redberry farm in orleans, cape cod MA. this version has replaced the second stack with a condenser to capture liquid pyrolytic exhausts and recycle the gases into the firebox. this unit also has small fans to boost and regulate the flow of exhaust gases from both firebox and condenser. also a few temperature sensors embedded to monitor the firebox and retort temperatures, and more

precisely regulate the pyrolysis process. and an air conditioner was included to chill the condenser fluids. these modifications also required adding electric power and circuits to the unit, and a water tank to cool ad recirculate condenser fluids. photo below. > > NEB also built the third adam retort in NC, but as a fixed location masonry structure with steel plate lid and chamber separator. the lid had a flaw in it and cracked, and so the upper lid was replaced with a rather beautiful masonry arch. no photo. > > the adam retort is a true monster that process 750 lbs. per bach (3/4 cord of firewood) and puts out so much heat, it has deformed and buckled the steel plate of the first metalized version. this also makes the unit somewhat difficult to control. it also requires constant monitoring and fuelwood feeding to sustain pyrolysis gas ignition and temperatures. > > the condenser became necessary to satisfy stringent MA air quality regulations, and thus far is performing adequately, though not perfectly. each burn yield 50+ gallons of wood vinegar and other pyrolytic liquids. neither unit has been functioning long enough to have a realistic life cycle assessment. the second version just this sunday completed a 4-day, four burn endurance trial at shelburne farms VT: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jockgill/sets/72157623718106169/ > photos courtesy of jock gill. > > > the adam retort is a rather simple, crude device that will need several refinements to be a fully functional pyrloysis unit to made biochar. it is a small scale commercial unit that may prove especiallly valuable for remore site forestry applications. however, it is too large for most on-farm agricultural applications, which is my primary concern. > > for a green & peaceful planet, > David Yarrow > Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary > 44 Gilligan Rd, East Greenbush, NY 12061 > 802-778-0663 > www.carbon-negative.us > www.dyarrow.org > www.ancientforests.us > www.nutrient-dense.info > www.farmandfood.org > www.SeaAgri.com > www.OnondagaVesica.info > www.TurtleEyeland.org > > ----- Original Message ----> From: freddeneedle > To: biochar@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:25 AM > Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA > >

> > Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA. > > It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org >

#106 58

"freddeneedle" <freddeneedle@...> Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:25 am Subject: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

freddeneedle
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Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA.

It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org

Reply

#106 60

"Tom Miles" <tmiles@...> Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:08 pm Subject: RE: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

trmilesjr
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Another char maker by New England Biochar and Chris Adam. Thanks Fredde. Tom http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/flowfarmadamretort

From: biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of freddeneedle Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 4:26 AM To: biochar@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA. It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org

Reply

#106 61

Andrew Crane-Droesch <andrewcd@...> Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:55 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

mynameisnot drew
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Thanks for sharing, this is interesting. Can anyone share any technical drawings? Also, I see from flowfarm website that it needs about 100 pounds of fuelwood to get the offgases flammable and then pyrolyze about 2000 pounds of feedstock. Is this about accurate/how much does this vary? And has anybody stuck a few thermocouples inside of one of these things to get at the operating temperature or the thermal gradient between the top and the bottom of the retort? Looking forward to learning more. Cheers, Andrew

Tom Miles wrote:

Another char maker by New England Biochar and Chris Adam. Thanks Fredde. Tom http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/flowfarmadamretort
From: biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of freddeneedle Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 4:26 AM To: biochar@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA

Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA. It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org

Reply

#106 62

"Tom Miles" <tmiles@...> Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:07 pm Subject: RE: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

trmilesjr
Offline Send Email

Andrew, The Adam Retort design is owned by Chris Adam, Adam & Partner (http://www.biocoal.org/3.html ) and licensed in the US through New England Biochar. NE Biochar has also developed a mobile version of the retort that you can see in recent posts. http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/taxonomy/term/1150 The fuel wood requirement is about right. It will vary depending on the moisture of the charge in the retort and the moisture of the fuel in the burner. NE Biochar has a method of recovering stack gases from the unit they say can heat a 5,000 ft2 greenhouse. Best to contact Peter Hirst at New England Biochar peter@... Tom
From: biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Crane-Droesch Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:55 AM To: biochar@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA Thanks for sharing, this is interesting. Can anyone share any technical drawings? Also, I see from flowfarm website that it needs about 100 pounds of fuelwood to get the offgases flammable and then pyrolyze about 2000 pounds of feedstock. Is this about accurate/how much does this vary? And has anybody stuck a few thermocouples inside of one of these things to get at the operating temperature or the thermal gradient between the top and the bottom of the retort? Looking forward to learning more. Cheers, Andrew

Tom Miles wrote:

Another char maker by New England Biochar and Chris Adam. Thanks Fredde. Tom http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/flowfarmadamretort
From: biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of freddeneedle Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 4:26 AM To: biochar@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA. It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org

Reply

#106 68

"Ben Discoe" <ben@...> Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:30 am Subject: RE: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

bdiscoe
Offline Send Email

> ----> From: Andrew Crane-Droesch > > this is interesting. drawings? Can anyone share any technical

Nobody can, because the Adam business model is to treat the retort design as a trade secret which is licensed. to do so, but Of course they're entitled

IMHO it's a very odd model for agriculture, akin to selling a tractor

without revealing how many gears it has, or how many horsepower. I'm not sure how many folks would take such a big bet on a deliberately unknown process.

Their website also lacks any mention of a license cost, so the only source of information currently is rumor, which says it's a few thousand dollars. Presumably you pay the money to learn the mechanism, and if you then conclude that the mechanism isn't going to work well for your local construction materials and abilities, then, well, you're out the money. IMHO, a strange and unfortunate model.

Presuming the mechanism has merit (perhaps we'll never know), I can only wish that the inventors had grasped the open source model, or more historically the 'design for livingry' of Buckminster Fuller, who patented all his inventions specifically to donate them for benefiting all humanity.

-Ben

Reply

#106 69

Andrew Crane-Droesch <andrewcd@...> Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:05 am Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From: Date:

mynameisnot drew
Offline Send Email

Well, I'm not trying to criticize their business model. I'm simply curious to what degree a bottom-heated retort, that is heated by recycled pyrolysis gas, can sustain temps >400C throughout the whole vessel for more than an hour or two. It seems like a tall order with a simple system, given that pyrolysis gas tends to start coming out of the feedstock pretty quickly, pretty strongly, and not for as long as one would like in order to bake the material long enough to get high levels of highly conjugated aromatic carbon. I am actually trying to design something similar myself, so I'd like to learn from what he has! Best, Andrew Ben Discoe wrote: ----From: Andrew Crane-Droesch this is interesting. Can anyone share any technical drawings? Nobody can, because the Adam business model is to treat the retort design as a trade secret which is licensed. Of course they're entitled to do so, but IMHO it's a very odd model for agriculture, akin to selling a tractor without revealing how many gears it has, or how many horsepower. I'm not sure how many folks would take such a big bet on a deliberately unknown process. Their website also lacks any mention of a license cost, so the only source of information currently is rumor, which says it's a few thousand dollars. Presumably you pay the money to learn the mechanism, and if you then

conclude that the mechanism isn't going to work well for your local construction materials and abilities, then, well, you're out the money. IMHO, a strange and unfortunate model. Presuming the mechanism has merit (perhaps we'll never know), I can only wish that the inventors had grasped the open source model, or more historically the 'design for livingry' of Buckminster Fuller, who patented all his inventions specifically to donate them for benefiting all humanity. -Ben -----------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: biochar-digest@yahoogroups.com biocharfullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: biochar-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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#106 77

"David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...> Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:39 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From: Date:

yarrow_david
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the adam retort license costs is very modest -- on the order of a few hundred dollars, not thousands. the figure $350 bubbles into my brain. as i understand it, the license fee is not to enrich the designer, but to support the deployment of more units in third world countries. similarly, the secrecy is not to protect a cash cow proprietary process, but to prevent ripoff copycats that short circuit this modest means to raise small change to fund third world projects. this is third hand information. chris adam saw the primitive, polluting, inefficient, wood-wasting methods being used in (i believe) kenya to make charcoal for cooking, and developed the retort as a far more efficient, resource conserving, low tech way to make this essential, universal household need. as i understand the story, he has

since built his retortd in several other african and asian nations. my hat is off to this good man and his noble efforts. i'm happy to pay him the modest license fee, except i'm interested in far smaller, on-farm scale units. reality is this simple technology was developed for third world nations where technology, sheet steel, electricity, temperature sensors, motors, even a simple fan are hard to find or money to buy. the key component is the two pieces of sheet steel that are the lid of the firebox, and lid of the retort. the rest -- essentially the vertical components -- can be any sort of masonry, from clay to firebox to stone. the physical design is elegant simplicity, and is not a big mystery or revelation. it's basically just like an oven, with the fire underneath, and a baking chamber above. however, the baking chamber -- the retort, for you technos -- is sealed (mostly) and has dual exhaust ports: one vents the water-laden initial pyrolysis exhausts; then, after the water is baked out, this is shut and another port opened to vent pyrolysis gases into the firebox for self-sustained burn. the secrecy is mostly the exact dimensions and placement of these components to sustain an efficient thermal process. for a green & peaceful planet, David Yarrow Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary 44 Gilligan Rd, East Greenbush, NY 12061 802-778-0663 www.carbon-negative.us www.dyarrow.org www.ancientforests.us www.nutrient-dense.info www.farmandfood.org www.SeaAgri.com www.OnondagaVesica.info www.TurtleEyeland.org ----- Original Message ----From: Andrew Crane-Droesch To: biochar@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA Well, I'm not trying to criticize their business model. I'm simply curious to what degree a bottom-heated retort, that is heated by recycled pyrolysis gas, can sustain temps >400C throughout the whole vessel for more than an hour or two. It seems like a tall order with a simple system, given that pyrolysis gas tends to start coming out of the feedstock pretty quickly, pretty strongly, and not for as long as one would like in order to bake the material long enough to get high levels of highly conjugated aromatic carbon. I am actually trying to design something similar myself, so I'd like to learn from what he has!

Best, Andrew
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#106 63

"Geralyn D" <palmtreepathos@...> Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:38 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

palmtreepath os
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Hello freddeneedle

exciting for burner for sure!

I would love to see a video of it working... How do they unload the charcoal? it first then shoveling it out. hand out

Did you see it?

I would think wetting and crushing

Would that be possible?

Or do they

each piece which seems a bit labor intensive?

Geralyn D.

Reply

#106 66

"flowfarmchar" <flowfarmchar@...> Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:11 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From: Date:

flowfarmchar
Offline Send Email

We had the local news station out to do a presentation for Earth Day so we will release that video when it becomes available.

As far as unloading it, we use manure forks and snow shovels, it was a little labor intensive at first until we figured out our methods and what we were going to store it in after unloading.

Now that we have that part figured out it has become very easy to unload and get prepared for the next burn.

Flow Farm Aberdeen, NC

flowfarm.org

--- In biochar@yahoogroups.com, "Geralyn D" <palmtreepathos@...> wrote: > > > > Hello freddeneedle > > I would love to see a video of it working... it? How do > they unload the charcoal? it first > then shoveling it out. hand out Did you see exciting for burner for sure!

I would think wetting and crushing

Would that be possible?

Or do they

> each piece which seems a bit labor intensive? > > Geralyn D. >

Reply

#106 64

"Dave Green" <gardenbees@...> Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:20 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

pollinator2001
Offline Send Email

----- Original Message ----From: "freddeneedle" <freddeneedle@...> > > It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the > name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at > flowfarm.org

It was disappointing to go to their home page and see: "No synthetic pesticides, herbicides or fungicides are ever used on the property." Herbicides and fungicides ARE pesticides, just as insecticides and rodenticides, etc.

It's about akin to saying "Baptists and Christians" or "fruit and apples." It's a case of mixing a group with its members.

Such sloppy writing is a clue the writer doesn't know what he's talking about, and always make me want to triplecheck anything else he writes. Or else I just quit reading right there...

Dave

Reply

#106 65

"flowfarmchar" <flowfarmchar@...> Date: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:51 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

flowfarmchar
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Dave,

I appreciate your comments regarding the website and as I have just taken over the website and the management of the farm I will endeavor to change that.

Regards

Flow Farm Aberdeen, NC flowfarm.org

--- In biochar@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Green" <gardenbees@...> wrote: >

> > ----- Original Message ----> From: "freddeneedle" <freddeneedle@...> > > > > It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the > > name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at > > flowfarm.org > > It was disappointing to go to their home page and see: "No synthetic > pesticides, herbicides or fungicides are ever used on the property." > Herbicides and fungicides ARE pesticides, just as insecticides and > rodenticides, etc. > > It's about akin to saying "Baptists and Christians" or "fruit and apples." > It's a case of mixing a group with its members. > > Such sloppy writing is a clue the writer doesn't know what he's talking > about, and always make me want to triplecheck anything else he writes. Or > else I just quit reading right there... >

> Dave >

Reply

#106 67

"Ben Discoe" <ben@...> Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 am Subject: RE: Adam Retort in the USA
From: Date:

bdiscoe
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> ----> From: Dave Green > > It was disappointing to go to their home page and see: "No synthetic > pesticides, herbicides or fungicides are ever used on the property." > Herbicides and fungicides ARE pesticides

Dave, i don't know what semantic high horse you're riding, but the meaning is perfectly clear and correct in colloquial English as used by organic farmers in the USA: Pesticides kills unwanted members of the animal kingdom, herbicides kill the vegetable kingdom, and fungicides kill fungi.

> It's a case of mixing a group with its members. Such sloppy writing > is a clue the writer doesn't know what he's talking about

You might want to get a grip. insecticides or

If they wrote "no pesticides,

rodenticides", then you could raise a minor quibble on redundancy. But "pesticides and herbicides" is, in context, neither redundant nor ambiguous.

-Ben

Reply

#106 70

"Dave Green" <gardenbees@...> Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:21 am Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From: Date:

pollinator2001
Offline Send Email

----- Original Message ----From: "Ben Discoe" <ben@...> > Dave, i don't know what semantic high horse you're riding

It's called plain English. Say what you mean and mean what you say. We'd all communicate better, if we followed it.

"A pesticide is any substance or mixture of substances intended for preventing, destroying, repelling, or mitigating any pest. Pests can be insects, mice and other animals, unwanted plants (weeds), fungi, or microorganisms like bacteria and viruses. Though often misunderstood to refer only to insecticides, the term pesticide also applies to herbicides, fungicides, and various other substances used to control pests. Under United States law, a pesticide is also any substance or mixture of substances intended for use as a plant regulator, defoliant, or desiccant." (EPA)

Dave

Reply

#106 71

"Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm@...> Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:44 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

redirondog
Offline Send Email

Dear David ----- Original Message ----From: Dave Green To: biochar@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:20 PM Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA

----- Original Message ----From: "freddeneedle" <freddeneedle@yahoo.com> > > It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the > name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at > flowfarm.org It was disappointing to go to their home page and see: "No synthetic pesticides, herbicides or fungicides are ever used on the property." Herbicides and fungicides ARE pesticides, just as insecticides and rodenticides, etc.

# You might be technically correct, but to many people... #PESTICIDES are what kills creepy crawlies # INSECTICIDES also kill creepie crawlies # HERBICIDES are what kills weeds and # FUNGICIDES are what kills molds, mushrooms, strange lookijng growths, and bad stuff I can't see.
It's about akin to saying "Baptists and Christians" or "fruit and apples." It's a case of mixing a group with its members. Such sloppy writing is a clue the writer doesn't know what he's talking about, and always make me want to triplecheck anything else he writes. Or else I just quit reading right there...

# Have you found anything else of significance that was wrong,

inaccurate or misleading about the article or posting? Best wishes, Kevin

Dave

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#106 72

"flowfarmchar" <flowfarmchar@...> Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:31 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

flowfarmchar
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I appreciate the passion that people have on here, but it seems that the whole intent of having the Adam Retort and the bio char is getting lost.

The intent for Flow Farm was for us to be able to use the Adam Retort as part of our learning and educational center (in process) and of course primarily to add to our soil. We are also in the process of establishing ourselves as a Non-profit organization.

Our typical PH here in this region is 4.5 to 5.1 and the area is aptly named the Sandhills. To say our soil was fast draining would be an understatement.

We are also a Vegan farm, we use no blood meal, bone meal etc in the preparation of our soil.

Before someone says it, yes we do allow worms in our beds and we do use worm tea for side dressings and compost tea. Yes, we created some of our own challenges but that was our choice.

So, back to the Bio Char, we were interested in the Adam Retort unit for several reasons, (Not in any particular order)

To fit in with the future plans of Flow Farm.

Our proximity to the NC Farm Center that has the BCS 1000.

The availability and expertise of Peter Hirst from New England Bio Char to oversee construction.

The availability of Chris Adam to communicate ideas and suggestions for construction and for the operation of the system.

Our poor soil content.

As far as licensing and costs, we are not licensing the unit or building it for others why would we put the pricing on our website as its not

ours to give?

But for those that are interested in licensing and construction you can contact New England Biochar or Chris Adam and they will tell you how much it costs, after all that's how we did it. It took one email and one phone call to get all the information that we needed.

It's not a secret it's just a matter of going to the right people.

It seems that many are wary because of the inability to see a unit of the data from a unit, well now there is one here in the USA so you can see it, touch it, feel it, smell it.

If you want to crawl inside it and spend the night in there to get the full experience we can arrange it.

Seriously though, For those that would like to come visit and see the unit in operation then please contact us and we would be more than happy to show you it.

Bring gloves and comfy clothes that you don't mind getting

dirty as you will be loading and unloading the unit as part of the educational experience.

Flow Farm Aberdeen, NC flowfarm.org

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#106 74

"Dave" <gardenbees@...> Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:53 pm Subject: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
From:

pollinator2001
Offline Send Email

--- In biochar@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm@...> wrote: > > > > > # INSECTICIDES also kill creepie crawlies #PESTICIDES are what kills creepy crawlies # You might be technically correct, but to many people...

> > > > > > # FUNGICIDES are what kills molds, mushrooms, strange lookijng growths, and bad stuff I can't see. and # HERBICIDES are what kills weeds

OK, write your own definitions. Live in an Orwellian world, if you wish.

The point is that, if you wish to COMMUNICATE, it's not a good idea to discredit yourself to a significant portion of the audience you wish to reach.

In other words, if you want to be part of a little subgroup, then you can easily stay a little subgroup. Have your own jargon; don't use the language of the majority. If you can't lift a finger to learn some language skills, you can always stay on the outside looking in.

Dave

(Daddy's words to me: The day you don't learn something new is the day you start getting old.)

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#106 76

"Mark Ludlow" <mark@...> Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:24 pm Subject: RE: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
From:

dosidicus...
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Hi Dave, From a strictly legal point of view, in the USA virtually all substances sold for agriculture use are regulated by the USEPA as described by the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) which was first passed in 1947, which also includes substances such as plant growth regulators (PGR). All products are considered to be pesticides as any regulatory consultant will quickly confirm. Its not exactly a foreign language if youre associated with agriculture, although semantically it may be a bit confusing to understand how a fertilizer can be a pesticide. Best, Mark
From: biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 8:53 AM To: biochar@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?

--- In biochar@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm@...> wrote: > # You might be technically correct, but to many people... > > #PESTICIDES are what kills creepy crawlies > > # INSECTICIDES also kill creepie crawlies > > # HERBICIDES are what kills weeds > > and >

> # FUNGICIDES are what kills molds, mushrooms, strange lookijng growths, and bad stuff I can't see. OK, write your own definitions. Live in an Orwellian world, if you wish. The point is that, if you wish to COMMUNICATE, it's not a good idea to discredit yourself to a significant portion of the audience you wish to reach. In other words, if you want to be part of a little subgroup, then you can easily stay a little subgroup. Have your own jargon; don't use the language of the majority. If you can't lift a finger to learn some language skills, you can always stay on the outside looking in. Dave (Daddy's words to me: The day you don't learn something new is the day you start getting old.)

Reply

#106 78

"David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...> Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:45 pm Subject: Re: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
From:

yarrow_david
Offline Send Email

out of common courtesy and netiquette, would you guys please take this kind of contentious and largely irrelevant chatter off-line. argue this nonsense on you own bandwidth and stop cluttering up this list. show some decency, judgment and restraint. this is a prime reason why people abandon this list, and we lose the benefit of their participation. yes, i am in a grumpy mood today. we had 8 inches of rain in a recent new england storm, and 11 inches in the one before that. people are suffering as the temperate zone collapses. we have more serious issues to discuss. dancing turtle ----- Original Message ----From: Mark Ludlow To: biochar@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:24 PM Subject: RE: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?

Hi Dave, From a strictly legal point of view, in the USA virtually all substances sold for agriculture use are regulated by the USEPA as described by the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) which was first passed in 1947, which also includes substances such as plant growth regulators (PGR). All products are considered to be pesticides as any regulatory consultant will quickly confirm. Its not exactly a foreign language if youre associated with agriculture,

although semantically it may be a bit confusing to understand how a fertilizer can be a pesticide. Best, Mark
MARKETPLACE

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#106 83

Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy Design Ltd <mark@...> Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:10 pm Subject: Re: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
From: Date:

markhyphen
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hear hear

David Yarrow wrote: > > out of common courtesy and netiquette, would you guys please take this > kind of contentious and largely irrelevant chatter off-line. argue > this nonsense on you own bandwidth and stop cluttering up this list. > show some decency, judgment and restraint. this is a prime reason why > people abandon this list, and we lose the benefit of their participation.

> yes, i am in a grumpy mood today. we had 8 inches of rain in a recent > new england storm, and 11 inches in the one before that. people are > suffering as the temperate zone collapses. we have more serious issues > to discuss. > dancing turtle > > > ----- Original Message ----*From:* Mark Ludlow <mailto:mark@...>

> *To:* biochar@yahoogroups.com <mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > all From a strictly legal point of view, in the USA virtually Hi Dave, *Sent:* Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:24 PM *Subject:* RE: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?

> substances sold for agriculture use are regulated by the USEPA as > described by the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide > Act (FIFRA) which was first passed in 1947, which also includes > substances such as plant growth regulators (PGR). All products are

> considered to be pesticides as any regulatory consultant will > > > with Its not exactly a foreign language if youre associated quickly confirm.

> agriculture, although semantically it may be a bit confusing to > > > > > > > Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're > > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15ohtmanp/M=493064.13983314.139652 07.13298430/D=gro\ ups/S=1707418612:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1271183114/L=23f55320-471911df-b2e5-37a781423\ 1d8/B=8MwZHGKJiVg/J=1271175914751148/K=sbQs1EQ.kpQfDTUeDXu3cA/A=6060255/R=0/SIG\ =1194m4keh/*http://us.toolbar.yahoo.com/?.cpdl=grpj> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. MARKETPLACE Best, Mark understand how a fertilizer can be a pesticide.

> > Welcome to Mom Connection! Share stories, news and more with moms > > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15oo11h0l/M=493064.13814537.139652 24.10835568/D=gro\ ups/S=1707418612:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1271183114/L=23f55320-471911df-b2e5-37a781423\ 1d8/B=8cwZHGKJiVg/J=1271175914751148/K=sbQs1EQ.kpQfDTUeDXu3cA/A=6042764/R=0/SIG\ =11jbo19n3/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/momconnection> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! > > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15o06tmik/M=493064.14012770.139637 57.13298430/D=gro\ ups/S=1707418612:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1271183114/L=23f55320-471911df-b2e5-37a781423\ 1d8/B=8swZHGKJiVg/J=1271175914751148/K=sbQs1EQ.kpQfDTUeDXu3cA/A=6015306/R=0/SIG\ =11vlkvigg/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/hobbiesandactiv itieszone/> > Explore new interests. like you.

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#106 84

"Mark Ludlow" <mark@...> Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:51 am Subject: RE: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
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dosidicus...
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Dear Mr. Dancing Turtle, What, pray, did your post have to do with Biochar? Mark

-----Original Message----From: biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Bigland-Pritchard / Low Energy Design Ltd Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:10 AM To: biochar@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?

hear hear

David Yarrow wrote: > > out of common courtesy and netiquette, would you guys please take this > kind of contentious and largely irrelevant chatter off-line. argue

> this nonsense on you own bandwidth and stop cluttering up this list. > show some decency, judgment and restraint. this is a prime reason why > people abandon this list, and we lose the benefit of their participation. > yes, i am in a grumpy mood today. we had 8 inches of rain in a recent > new england storm, and 11 inches in the one before that. people are > suffering as the temperate zone collapses. we have more serious issues > to discuss. > dancing turtle > > > ----- Original Message ----*From:* Mark Ludlow <mailto:mark@...>

> *To:* biochar@yahoogroups.com <mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > all From a strictly legal point of view, in the USA virtually Hi Dave, *Sent:* Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:24 PM *Subject:* RE: [biochar] Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?

> substances sold for agriculture use are regulated by the USEPA as

> described by the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide > Act (FIFRA) which was first passed in 1947, which also includes > substances such as plant growth regulators (PGR). All products are > considered to be "pesticides" as any regulatory consultant will > > > with It's not exactly a foreign language if you're associated quickly confirm.

> agriculture, although semantically it may be a bit confusing to > > > > > > > Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're > > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15ohtmanp/M=493064.13983314.139652 07.13298430/D =groups/S=1707418612:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1271183114/L=23f553204719-11df-b2e5-3 7a7814231d8/B=8MwZHGKJiVgon - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. MARKETPLACE Best, Mark understand how a fertilizer can be a "pesticide".

/J=1271175914751148/K=sbQs1EQ.kpQfDTUeDXu3cA/A=606 0255/R=0/SIG=1194m4keh/*http://us.toolbar.yahoo.com/?.cpdl=grpj > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Welcome to Mom Connection! Share stories, news and more with moms > > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15oo11h0l/M=493064.13814537.139652 24.10835568/D =groups/S=1707418612:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1271183114/L=23f553204719-11df-b2e5-3 7a7814231d8/B=8cwZHGKJiVg/J=1271175914751148/K=sbQs1EQ.kpQfDTUeDXu3cA/A=604 2764/R=0/SIG=11jbo19n3/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mom connection> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! > > Explore new interests. like you.

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15o06tmik/M=493064.14012770.139637 57.13298430/D =groups/S=1707418612:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1271183114/L=23f553204719-11df-b2e5-3 7a7814231d8/B=8swZHGKJiVg/J=1271175914751148/K=sbQs1EQ.kpQfDTUeDXu3cA/A=601 5306/R=0/SIG=11vlkvigg/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/hob biesandactivi tieszone/> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMzBnb2ZqBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkw BGdycElkAzIyN DM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUD MTI3MTE3NTkxN A--> > > > <mailto:biochartraditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Form at:%20Traditional>, > > <mailto:biochardigest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest> > . Unsubscribe Daily Digest Switch to: Text-Only Yahoo! Groups

> <mailto:biocharunsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> . > > > > http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=22438052/grpspId=170 7418612/msgId =10676/stime=1271175914/nc1=4507179/nc2=4025291/nc3=5741398 > > > Terms of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . Web Bug from

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#106

From:

"Dave" <gardenbees@...>

pollinator2001

87

Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:45 am Subject: Re: Pesticides AND herbicides?
Date:

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--- In biochar@yahoogroups.com, "David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...> wrote: > > out of common courtesy and netiquette, would you guys please take this kind of contentious and largely irrelevant chatter off-line. this nonsense on you own bandwidth and stop cluttering up this list. decency, judgment and argue

show some

restraint. this is a prime reason why people abandon this list, and we lose the benefit of their participation. > > yes, i am in a grumpy mood today.

Please, please, don't get in such a grumpy mood that you fail to see who your friends are.

This group is a group to advocate for biochar, is it not? We want to communicate its need and importance to the rest of the world, no?

If this is true, then marginalizing ourselves by making a faux pas that will strike those with some scientific training (seems to me the most important audience with which to communicate) think, "Oh, well, here's another whacko. I'll skip this article."

So it's not irrelevant. Indeed how to best communicate our message is quite central to the purpose of the group.

And it need not be contentious either. The manager of flowfarm used it as a learning moment. He acknowledged the error and said corrections would be made. To me, that shows character.

Others got their panties in a wad, preferring to stick to the small group jargon that shuts them out of possibilities. I was offering a word to the wise...

And you don't need to convince me. I'm making biochar every chance I get to fire up a burn. I'll be blogging about it in the future, and have been posting on garden groups already.

So recognize your friends; don't treat them like enemies. Your scolding might make someone (like me perhaps) think of leaving the list.

I've said all I will say. Those who are willing to learn have done so.

Dave

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#106 73

"David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...> Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:48 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From: Date:

yarrow_david
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actually, the NC adam retort is the third in the USA. the first was built by new england biochar in cape cod MA, is owned by ideal compost in peterborough NH, was fully metalized instead of masonry, and is transportable. picture at right. the second, also built by NEB, also fully metalized, also transportable, is still unsold, and operated by redberry farm in orleans, cape cod MA. this version has replaced the second stack with a condenser to capture liquid pyrolytic exhausts and recycle the gases into the firebox. this unit also has small fans to boost and regulate the flow of exhaust gases from both firebox and condenser. also a few temperature sensors embedded to monitor the firebox and retort temperatures, and more precisely regulate the pyrolysis process. and an air conditioner was included to chill the condenser fluids. these modifications also required adding electric power and circuits to the unit, and a water tank to cool ad recirculate condenser fluids. photo below. NEB also built the third adam retort in NC, but as a fixed location masonry structure with steel plate lid and chamber separator. the lid had a flaw in it and cracked, and so the upper lid was replaced with a rather beautiful masonry arch. no photo. the adam retort is a true monster that process 750 lbs. per bach (3/4 cord of firewood) and puts out so much heat, it has deformed and buckled the steel plate of the first metalized version. this also makes the unit somewhat difficult to control. it also requires constant monitoring and fuelwood feeding to sustain pyrolysis gas ignition and temperatures.

the condenser became necessary to satisfy stringent MA air quality regulations, and thus far is performing adequately, though not perfectly. each burn yield 50+ gallons of wood vinegar and other pyrolytic liquids. neither unit has been functioning long enough to have a realistic life cycle assessment. the second version just this sunday completed a 4-day, four burn endurance trial at shelburne farms VT:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jockgill/sets/72157623718106169/
photos courtesy of jock gill. the adam retort is a rather simple, crude device that will need several refinements to be a fully functional pyrloysis unit to made biochar. it is a small scale commercial unit that may prove especiallly valuable for remore site forestry applications. however, it is too large for most on-farm agricultural applications, which is my primary concern. for a green & peaceful planet, David Yarrow Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary 44 Gilligan Rd, East Greenbush, NY 12061 802-778-0663 www.carbon-negative.us www.dyarrow.org www.ancientforests.us www.nutrient-dense.info www.farmandfood.org www.SeaAgri.com www.OnondagaVesica.info www.TurtleEyeland.org ----- Original Message ----From: freddeneedle To: biochar@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:25 AM Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA. It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org

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#106 79

"flowfarmchar" <flowfarmchar@...> Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:08 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
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flowfarmchar
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David, Let me clarify a couple of things, the Adam Retort in North Carolina is the first

masonry unit in the USA and is available for viewing and operation by anyone that cares to come and do so. I am not sure that is the same for the other units. The lid of the unit did not crack, there was a steel plate in the firebox that expanded and cracked the outer brick fascia, we thought we could improve on the original design and added the plate ourselves, obviously that was a mistake. The plate has since been removed and replaced with an arch design and actually gives us more airflow through the chamber when we need it. Arch on Adam Retort Our particular unit is out in the woods, where all the feedstock is, our decision was, do we bring the unit to the feedstock or the feedstock to the unit? We have an abundant supply of feedstock that has been sitting, covered for over a year, the cost of moving all the feedstock would have cost more than the unit itself so that was a no-brainer for us. We also have thermocouples and a data logger to see exactly what the temps are inside the chamber at various points. It is a basic design, agreed, but for the cost factor and the size of our farm we would not need to spend 50K on a mobile unit. For us, its perfect, and we still use the barrel version too as we always have students coming by to learn more about the process. Thanks, Flow Farm Aberdeen, NC flowfarm.org

--- In biochar@yahoogroups.com, "David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...> wrote: > > actually, the NC adam retort is the third in the USA. > > the first was built by new england biochar in cape cod MA, is owned by ideal compost in peterborough NH, was fully metalized instead of masonry, and is transportable. picture at right. > > the second, also built by NEB, also fully metalized, also transportable, is still unsold, and operated by redberry farm in orleans, cape cod MA. this version has replaced the second stack with a condenser to capture liquid pyrolytic exhausts and recycle the gases into the firebox. this unit also has small fans to

boost and regulate the flow of exhaust gases from both firebox and condenser. also a few temperature sensors embedded to monitor the firebox and retort temperatures, and more precisely regulate the pyrolysis process. and an air conditioner was included to chill the condenser fluids. these modifications also required adding electric power and circuits to the unit, and a water tank to cool ad recirculate condenser fluids. photo below. > > NEB also built the third adam retort in NC, but as a fixed location masonry structure with steel plate lid and chamber separator. the lid had a flaw in it and cracked, and so the upper lid was replaced with a rather beautiful masonry arch. no photo. > > the adam retort is a true monster that process 750 lbs. per bach (3/4 cord of firewood) and puts out so much heat, it has deformed and buckled the steel plate of the first metalized version. this also makes the unit somewhat difficult to control. it also requires constant monitoring and fuelwood feeding to sustain pyrolysis gas ignition and temperatures. > > the condenser became necessary to satisfy stringent MA air quality regulations, and thus far is performing adequately, though not perfectly. each burn yield 50+ gallons of wood vinegar and other pyrolytic liquids. neither unit has been functioning long enough to have a realistic life cycle assessment. the second version just this sunday completed a 4-day, four burn endurance trial at shelburne farms VT: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jockgill/sets/72157623718106169/ > photos courtesy of jock gill. > > > the adam retort is a rather simple, crude device that will need several refinements to be a fully functional pyrloysis unit to made biochar. it is a small scale commercial unit that may prove especiallly valuable for remore site forestry applications. however, it is too large for most on-farm agricultural applications, which is my primary concern. > > for a green & peaceful planet, > David Yarrow > Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary > 44 Gilligan Rd, East Greenbush, NY 12061 > 802-778-0663 > www.carbon-negative.us > www.dyarrow.org > www.ancientforests.us > www.nutrient-dense.info > www.farmandfood.org > www.SeaAgri.com > www.OnondagaVesica.info > www.TurtleEyeland.org >

> ----- Original Message ----> From: freddeneedle > To: biochar@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:25 AM > Subject: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA > > > > Hello everyone, I just returned from a Bio Char workshop in North Carolina where they have the first Adam Retort in the USA. > > It was exciting to see such simple technology being put to use here, the name of the farm is Flow Farm and you can see their website at flowfarm.org >
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#106 92

"Geralyn D" <palmtreepathos@...> Date: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:40 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

palmtreepath os
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"flowfarmchar" Does the

Thanks for all the great pictures and info.

top of the retort get hot enough to bake pizza or bread? a domed lid from a weber kettle to act as an oven? know... crazy woman questions... I know... I

Maybe

Thanks to David Y for extra info on the retort process... Geralyn D.

Reply

#106 93

"flowfarmchar" <flowfarmchar@...> Date: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:47 am Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

flowfarmchar
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It gets hot enough to fry an egg, we have tried that :)

Sounds like a fun thing to try some pizza though, I will let you know how things turn out.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Flow Farm Aberdeen, NC flowfarm.org

--- In biochar@yahoogroups.com, "Geralyn D" <palmtreepathos@...> wrote: > > > > "flowfarmchar" Does the Thanks for all the great pictures and info.

> top of the retort get hot enough to bake pizza or bread? Maybe a domed > lid from a weber kettle to act as an oven? know... crazy I know... I

> woman questions... > > Thanks to David Y for extra info on the retort process... Geralyn D. >

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#106 80

"Greg and April" <gregandapril@...> Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:04 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From: Date:

gregh80915
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A couple of years ago ( when I looked at the retort ), it was $1000 Euro, which translated to about $2500 US.

I suspect that the license cost is still tied to the Euro, and so the final cost in US$ is calculated at the time of transaction.

Greg H. .

Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.

. ----- Original Message ----From: "Ben Discoe" <ben@...> To: <biochar@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 19:30 Subject: RE: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA

Their website also lacks any mention of a license cost, so the only source of information currently is rumor, which says it's a few thousand dollars. Presumably you pay the money to learn the mechanism, and if you then conclude that the mechanism isn't going to work well for your local construction materials and abilities, then, well, you're out the money. IMHO, a strange and unfortunate model.

Reply

#106 81

"Greg and April" <gregandapril@...> Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:09 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

gregh80915
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If the cost is now $350, then it's come down from what it was a few years ago. Greg H. . Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy. . ----- Original Message ----From: David Yarrow To: biochar@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:39 Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA the adam retort license costs is very modest -- on the order of a few hundred dollars, not thousands. the figure $350 bubbles into my brain.

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#106 82

"David Yarrow" <dyarrow@...> Date: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:08 pm Subject: Re: Adam Retort in the USA
From:

yarrow_david
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as i said, this is third hand info. others will know better than me. the adam retort is not an interest of mine. david ----- Original Message ----From: Greg and April To: biochar@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [biochar] Adam Retort in the USA If the cost is now $350, then it's come down from what it was a few years ago. Greg H. .
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