Getting to the Heart of Animation with Eric Goldberg

AnimationTrip caught up with animation director Eric Goldberg recently when he visited our neighboring Laguna College of Art and Design to give an insightful lecture on the work of Chuck Jones Goldberg!s inspiring two"hour presentation also included his personal selection of film clips that spanned Jones# career $n the audience were several notable animators and directors from Los Angeles The event inaugurated The %riends of Chuck Jones Lecture &eries at the college and was introduced by Aubry 'int() Chair of Animation) with the following notes on Jones as well as Goldberg* +Thank you all for ,oining us on this special day -e are here today to celebrate the one and only Chuck Jones $n his si.ty"year career) Chuck has left us with over three hundred films / which is) if my math is correct) 0)120)333 frames -ith each viewing we are able to escape from our daily lives and laugh until our sides hurt Chuck#s humor and intelligence touched Eric Goldberg millions of people internationally and continues to do so for generations to come Today we bring you some of the greatest films Chuck Jones ever made and some you haven!t seen before Chuck once said) 4The least you owe an audience is the best that you can do 5 Chuck definitely showed us his best Chuck set a standard that will be difficult to match As industry professionals) teachers and students alike we continue to strive daily to catch a glimpse of re"creating this magic Chuck has left us great films to watch) and books to study and teach from) and we are fortunate to do so $f there was one animation director that could help us understand the genius of Chuck Jones and has also mastered the animation art form) it is our special guest presenter) Chuck#s close friend and admirer) Eric Goldberg %or those that don!t know) Eric is responsible for supervising the Genie in Disney!s Aladdin) co"directing Disney!s 6ocahontas) animating 6hil in 7ercules) and with his wife &usan as art director) wrote) animated and directed two critically" acclaimed se8uences in %antasia 0333 / Carnival of the Animals and 9hapsody in :lue %urthermore) Eric is one of the few if not the only person alive that could bring Chuck!s beloved characters to life as animation director for Looney Tunes* :ack in Action ;ot only did he animate the likes of :ugs :unny) Daffy Duck) Elmer) Coyote and the rest of the Looney Tunes) but $ have also heard he might have done a few voices $f you listen closely you might here him as &peedy Gon(ales) Tweety and Chuck Jones 'arvin the 'artian Today would not be possible without the effort and support of the faculty) students and staff of LCDA and the members of the Chuck Jones %oundation + -henever $ see something e.traordinary in animation $ can#t help but to think about the keen talent that went into the creation of a particular scene / and then sometimes a line from :utch Cassidy and the &undance <id comes to mind* +-ho are those guys=+ -ell) in the animation industry) Eric Goldberg is widely respected as one of +those guys+ and) thanks to Aubry and the rest of the good folks at LCAD) we#re pleased to present to you our interview with him Also) special gratitude goes to animation director) &am Chen) whose creative passion for filmmaking e.tends beyond his own film pro,ects as our engaging and knowledgeable guest interviewer

 Chris 6adilla)
Editor &am Chen* &o) thank you) Eric) for being here and sharing about Chuck Jones Eric Goldberg* 'y pleasure &C* $t#s like rediscovering Chuck Jones for us &o) real 8uick) if you could ,ust summari(e what lessons you#ve learned from Chuck Jones $ mean) what sets him apart for you= EG* $ think a big lesson is economy ;ot over"animating something / only moving something moving it well) but only moving enough to get the idea across without having to put a lot of flapping and thrashing around on top of it >ou know) he really is the only animation director that $ can think of whose work was funny and elegant at the same time And he got that elegance through the beautiful poses and through knowing how to utili(e them and how to convey that to his animators Certainly) timing in a Chuck Jones cartoon is superb There are certain technical things $#ve learned %or e.ample) <en 7arris $ kind of learned) second generation) how to animate from <en 7arris because he was at 9ichard -illiam#s studio at the same time $ was ?sed to take him to lunch every Tuesday and he used to go) +@h) $ can#t drawA $ don#t know what $#m doingA Dick does it all for meA+ And he could turn out thirty feet a week when he was eightyA And it was all goodA BlaughingC &o $ would ask him) and he would give me that answer) so $ went and asked Dick) +7ow does he do it=+ And Dick could analy(e it for me Dick told me about how he uses the two poses and a skew break down drawing to give him automatic overlap so when you put in the in"betweens you get overlaps 4for free 5 &o it#s a masterly use of in"between charts with as little drawing as possible &ure he#d go back and add bells and whistles where necessary but for the most part that#s how he did it >ou know) and he did it his whole lifeA &C* ;ow did you utili(e that for the Genie or EG* AbsolutelyA $ mean that#s the method of animating that $ use) which actually isn#t very different from say) 'ilt <ahl#s method of animating over at Disney >ou know) he would hit story"telling poses and then get from one to another in an interesting way And it#s a very sound method because it grounds your character but it also affords you the possibilities to get a lot of variation in the movement and the timing The other thing that Chuck did a lot of the time is not ,ust free(e on one of his poses &omething might arrive there fast) but it would take a Hercules couple more frames for the ear to catch up and things like that Little subtle things that are) what we called) the 4grace notes5 ,ust set the animation apart $t#s not basic stuff anymore $t#s ,ust playing a finely tuned violin &C* %inesse staggering and overlapping

EG* >eah) but it#s ,ust enough to not call attention to itself but to keep a character alive $t really is the way that $ animate And there are all sorts of little things in Case of the 'issing 7are when the magician is chuckling to himself you know) $ analy(ed that chuckle and it was a revelation because most people would animate a chuckle where the head#s moving up and down and the mouth is opening and closing <en did e.actly the opposite 7e put the head on a smooth path and let the shoulders go up and down And it works beautifully it#s so subtle but it) gosh) does it feel like a chuckleA BlaughingC &C* $t also looks different) right= $t#s so out of the ordinary) but yet familiar EG* >eah &C* -hat about 9ichard -illiams and %reddy 'oore -hat are some things you#ve learned from them=

Fantasia 2000 - Rhapsody in Blue

EG* Gosh) where do $ start= -here do $ stop= 9ichard -illiams was really my mentor) you know) in my formative years &C* And everyone!s because he wrote that wonderful book) T7E A;$'AT@9!& &?9D$DAL <$T EG* >eah) but this is way before $ first hooked up with him on 9aggedy Ann and Andy in E2F1 And $ was an assistant animator on that film and started to learn some things $!d always admired his movie title work and some of his short films like Love 'e) Love 'e) Love 'e and it was clear that this was a guy who liked going back to the past in order to recapture a lot of the 8ualities of the classic animation And to that end he would employ classic animators to work on Cobbler and the Thief amongst other pro,ects so $ got to work with Art :abbitt $ got to work with <en 7arris $ got to work with Emery 7awkins And that was great And of course Dick was terrific at articulating work >ou know) he#d be able to break a wrist ninety"eight ways before it finally resolved into this poseA And so his work always looked tremendously fluid and he was always encouraging of people who were trying to achieve that look and feel of the classic stuff As far as %reddy 'oore goes $ mean) $ never knew the guy but) you know) ,ust in terms of observation) his work had a 8uality that $ try to employ which is that his characters look like they#re en,oying themselves on the screen :oth he and -ard <imball had that 8uality to their animation that it looks like they#re having fun And there#s a spontaneity and a ,oy to that) you know) that you don#t see when somebody#s ,ust trying to ,ust push the stuff around Also) it#s been said that %reddy ,ust couldn#t keep up with the more sophisticated animation at Disney when they started doing things like &leeping :eauty and stuff like that And frankly) $#m not sure that#s true $ think %reddy and -ard#s animation is immensely sophisticated because it takes a lot to put comedy over >ou know) having co"directed 6ocahontas) $ can tell you that $ could approve scenes on 6ocahontas that were animated on eights) because she didn#t move much @kay= &o if you got those) then chances are that if the in"betweens filled in the right spot) it would be an okay scene >ou could never do that with the comedy scenes because they have to be that precise >ou got to put in more drawings) more e.tra) more ,uice to actually get it to read And hopefully elicit a laugh That#s a tall orderA &C* <ind of like the in"between frames that Chuck did with the e.aggerations EG* >eah &C* :ack to 9ichard -illiams Did he actually create +breaking of the ,oints+) or) did he codify it= -as he the first to do that= EG* ;o) that was Art :abbitt &C* @h really= EG* And he got that from :abbitt and he pushed it forward :ut :abbitt was the first one to coin the term And he was using it particularly about Goofy at the studio when he was animating Goofy in films like 'oving Day And it took people out of the idea of animating rubber hose animation and that you could get that same fluidity by ,ust breaking the ,oints) you know) between the elbow and the wrist) for e.ample &C* Even going beyond what is physically possible EG* >eah &C* -ell) speaking of 9ichard -illiams) you mentioned that you worked on 9oger 9abbit 0 or at least developing it and you took it to the CG realm and you said that the s8uash and stretch were ama(ing Can you share some of that= EG* >eah $t was a pro,ect that didn#t get made partially because of a lot of politics Disney would have to get in bed with &teven &pielberg again) and so on and so forth And this group owned one set of characters and another group owned another set of characters so it ,ust became politically unwieldy And everyone knew going in that it was going to be a costly film $ went the CG route because no matter how well you did the 0D on top of live action) people have already seen it The gimmick that made 9oger 9abbit a success couldn#t be used any more as a gimmick so $ went the ne.t Pocahontas

Looney Tunes: Back in Action

step and did a CG version And in this case) the scene was pre"animated by a 0D animator and then translated to a GD model Eric Guaglioneand his team down in %lorida did the translation and 9oger was there $ mean he was there And what they did was basically match all the stuff that we do in 0D They matched the strength of the poses They matched the 8uick transitions from one pose to the ne.t They had all the overlap $t was tough to do but we did it $ mean) we proved it could be done $ mean) $ don#t think that anybody seeing that test would think anything other than) +>up) there#s 9oger + >ou know) we did the same with the Genie) which we did finish) for Tokyo Disney &eas) which was a GD and a HD ride so to speak $t#s not a ride as much as it is a stage show and the live actors work down here and the Genie works up here on the screen :ut because of the element of GD) if they#re out here) and the Genie sticks his finger out here) because of the stereo) it looks like they#re on the same plane $t looks like they can interact and all that kind of stuff &C* ;ow did the %lorida team basically rotoscope what you guys did with CG= EG* >es The difference is with the Genies $ made) $ made a lot of pose drawings) but the animators animated them -e didn!t pre"animate them $t was under discussion) but the studio figured they!d rather see if the animators could actually get that style of animation &o we did $ had them model CG smear drawings BLaughsC ,ust for one frame) because the stuff wouldn!t come across the same way &C* -ould you have preferred to use the same method for Looney Tunes= EG* ;o $!m happy with what we did with Looney Tunes %irst of all) it!s a tall enough order to try to capture characters that are beloved by everybody Any everybody has a slightly different version of who those characters are in their minds &ome people like a Clampett take) some people like a %releng take) and some people like a Jones take $n the case of Daffy) he!s a bit of a hybrid 7e!s kind of the Jones duck with a bit of Clampett looney" ness thrown in And that was a conscious effort because we knew there were a lot of Clampett fans out there And Joe Dante) who is as much of a geek in this stuff as $ am) was wholly supportive of getting the animation to be as Fantasia 2000 - Carnival o the Ani!als good as possible 7e really wanted it to be hand"drawn 7e felt that was the legacy of these characters and that they should be hand"drawn $ had never shown him any of the CG stuff that we had done) but for the time frame that we had) it would have been impossible to model all of the characters and manipulate them well enough to get that kind of result &C* Can you comment on the trend toward CG with a little bit of your personal e.perience with 9oger 9abbit 0= -hat do you think of the whole trend= EG* -ell) $ think there!s some marvelous stuff being done &C* &uch as= EG* &uch as The $ncredibles Just saw it the other night Love it $ think it!s great There is still a wall) though) in terms of how CG animation is handled and how traditional animation is handled $n my opinion) nobody has gotten to that 4golden place5 yet where you wouldn!t be able to tell the two apart) at least not in anything other than small doses And most people aren!t trying because it!s a very comple. thing to do %or the Genie animation) we had to model about H33 heads) ,ust to be able to morph from one shape to another And if an e.pression is weird) you model that e.pression >ou don!t build a rig on a head that!s so heavy and cumbersome to try to get you to that e.pression >ou build the e.pression and then you play the pose) the way Chuck Jones would play the pose $ think that there!s a difference / $ think it!s partially because of the sub,ect matter in the films The films themselves are less fanciful and trying to be more adultI they!re a little lacking magic in many cases ;ow the 6i.ar films / and $ think they!ve certainly done the best of the CG efforts / were very smart because they first chose things that they knew they could do in CG 7ard"bodied toys 7ard"bodied insects %ish They keep developing new ways of overcoming technical challenges like) 4-hat does underwater look like=5 and 47ow does clothing fold=5 and that kind of stuff And it!s marvelous They did a nice ,ob with hair in The $ncredibles and stuff like that

&C* $t must have been a dream to work with 9obin -illiams as Genie -hat other actor would you love to animate to=

Aladdin

EG* @h) there are tons of themA 'el :rooks Love to do something with 'el :rooks 7mm) who else= There!s so many people where you think) 4@h yeahA 7e!d workA5 &usan suggested Adrian :rody for something the other day) and it!s like) 4>eahA >eah) that worksA5 &o we!re kind of thinking all over &C* Last 8uestion) although $ have so many moreA Can you tell us what you!re working on now and what!s ne.t for the future= -here are you going with your animation= EG* :asically we!ve gone independent) so a lot of that means a lot of freelance work for other pro,ects $!m animating right now some 6ink 6anther titles for :ob <urt( -e did a lot of work for the Aladdin DDD &pecial %eatures thing and we!ll probably be doing more of that work for upcoming DDD!s $ did one of the Drew Carey green screen pieces for the first show And) other than that kind of freelance work) we!re basically trying to get our own pro,ects off the ground $ think they can be done for a lot less money than is normally spent on animated features) as long as the money is spent in the right place) i e don!t waste it all for seven years) ga(ing at your navel in &toryA Just commit to the darn thing and make it) and improve it as you!re making it &C* And no e.ecutive meddling= EG* $ won!t say no BLaughsC A minimum of &C* And what!s in the future= EG* 7opefully getting one of these feature pro,ects off the ground $ can!t say more than that :ut we!ve got a lot of plates spinning &C* Awesome -ell) we look forward to what you and your wife) &usan) will deliver -e!re dying for the ne.t Eric Goldberg &ignature piece EG* Thank you very much