the "definitive" japanese navy grey...? - WWII - Britmodeller.

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11/10/2013

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the "definitive" japanese navy grey...?

Started by expositor , Oct 10 2010 08:29 PM Please log in to reply 14 replies to this topic

expositor
New Member Posted 10 October 2010 - 08:29 PM

#1

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sorry to start this anew, but after searching, you gents have had a lot to say on this subject, but i was hoping to add that i had read somewhere years ago that the ijn used spar varnish to seal their camouflaged carrier aircraft, accounting for the 'ameiro' color for the ship-born planes as opposed to their land-based ones. is this true, or bogus? if this has been discussed already and i missed it, please forgive my reopening this worm can. thanks!

Graham Boak
Completely Obsessed Member Posted 11 October 2010 - 12:11 PM

#2

In short, it's bogus. Go to j-aircraft.org for the best advice, but be prepared to set aside some time. If you are lucky Nick Millman may pop in with some shorter help.
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expositor
New Member Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:06 AM

#3

hi again gb, i did check one japanese site which seemed to indicate that some camouflaged naval aircraft were coated with some type of clear or caramel-tinted coating, but for the a5m not the a6m, so i await with patience, for one of our experts to set me straight on the grey color i can use on my zeke models....which i probably won't complete for years.... thanks!

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Nick Millman
Very Obsessed Member Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:20 AM

#4

Worm can? I don't think so. There is a contemporaneous description of the factory colour in the official Kugiho 0266 report from February 1942 which is consistent with the current appearance of the paint surface on surviving pieces. Separate pieces from different aircraft have been measured with photospectrometric equipment to identify their colour values by two separate researchers in two different countries with exactly similar results. The original pigments in the paint have now been identified and when recreated and aged in laboratory conditions the appearance is exactly similar to the surviving pieces. Most of the surviving paint surfaces have darkened and yellowed slightly with thermal ageing. Across scores of artifacts a clear coat of varnish has been found on only one example and is suspected to have been added post-war to protect it as a "souvenir". The "caramel" or amber (ameiro) effect on the grey is not the result of a varnish but rather an inherent characteristic of the interaction of the pigments and additives used in the original paint (as is the slightly greenish appearance) and specifically designed for application to light metals. Fabric surfaces (rudder and ailerons) were coated with a different formula that did not possess this characteristic and were more neutral grey in appearance.

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There are no definitive Navy greys available in hobby paints but the selection of these remains a matter of personal choice. Comparing them to the actual paint colour Tamiya XF-76 represents a moderately weathered (oxidised and "chalked") appearance on a Mitsubishi aircraft. White Ensigns Colour Coats ACJ16 Mitsubishi Zero Grey-Green is perhaps the closest to the colour as applied at the factory but just a little too brown. RAF "Hemp" is also similar but not exactly so - the Humbrol version being a little off. Polly Scale or Floquil "Concrete" are reasonable for a slightly weathered example. Gunze (GSI/Creos) RLM 02 is a little too dark and not quite amber enough. None of these paints quite captures the hue and reflectivity of the original (unscaled) colour. It is remarkably subtle - and pleasing - in appearance. Greg Springer's mix for the unscaled paint on Pearl Harbor era Mitsubishi Zeros using Tamiya paint is as follows:100 drops J.A. Grey XF14 40 drops Khaki XF49 3 drops Neutral Grey XF53 3 drops White XF2 2 drops Red XF7 The closest colour standards are FS 16350 (still slightly too brown) and RAL 7002 Olivgrau (Olive Grey) or RAL 7034 Gelbgrau (Yellow Grey). The latter descriptions are appropriate. The colour is very similar to RLM 02 and has the same metamerismic shift between green and brown. There is a whole swathe of paint technology and colour science behind this observation that I won't go into here. In operational use, particularly in tropical environments the paint surface oxidised and "chalked" rapidly towards the appearance of the bleached neutral and slightly blueish greys known so well.

expositor
New Member Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:09 PM

#5

hello nick, many thanks for taking the time to enlighten me. might there be any mixes for humbrol or testors paints? (white ensign paints aren't so easy to get this side of the pond.) i know many modelers like to do scale lightening and fading, but i lighten very little if at all in 1/72, as the decals aren't and without an airbrush, lightening them to any extent is next to impossible; at least for the lesser talented among us like me. how about a couple of drops of yellow in rlm 02 for a near factory-fresh aircraft? thanks again, jim

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Steve N
New Member Posted 15 October 2010 - 01:12 AM

#6

Here's my 1/72 Hasegawa Zero 21 painted with Gunze Aqueous RLM 02. I know it's not exact, but I'm happy with it. SN
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Nick Millman
Very Obsessed Member Posted 15 October 2010 - 08:27 AM

#7

Hi Jim Sorry for my late response. One thing to bear in mind if using RLM 02 is that the Testors version is lighter and greyer than the Gunze (GSI/Creos), more like a quite heavily oxidised and chalked example. Rather than adding straight yellow it is better to use a yellow ochre like Humbrol's 225 Matt Mid Stone in hue (I'm sorry I cannot suggest a Testors alternative to this). This will introduce the amber at the expense of the green but very little is required. The incremental shift from a neutral grey to a brownish or amber grey is tiny. The stock Humbrol paint always suggested for RLM 02 does not have this yellow/brown characteristic being rather a "cool" grey-green. As part of the research into this I also measured as many examples of RLM 02 as I could access and found them all to have this yellow element in the measured values - they are "warm" not "cool" colours. Even the Gunze paint is a little too "cool" but being in the ballpark you could probably add a little yellow and white. The main goal is that the aircraft should still appear to be primarily grey (albeit a yellow/amber grey) in colour rather than brown or green. If it looks brown or green you have gone too far! The problem is that unless matching to a swatch of the actual paint you are in the dark with these adjustments so to speak. I am planning to make these available as decent sized paint swatches which can be used in conjunction with the suggested mixes. Nevertheless, Steve's excellent model shows just how attractive the Zero looks when painted in straight RLM 02 and there is nothing wrong with a little experimentation. Another thing to bear in mind if using Steve's model as a reference point is that the decking under the canopy should really be painted in the anti-glare colour - the same blueish-black as the cowling. HTH Regards Nick

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Steve N
New Member Posted 15 October 2010 - 12:01 PM

#8

Unfortunately I didn't find out about the rear deck color until after I'd finished the model. I also incorrectly painted the insides of the gear doors and wheel wells Aotake. I understand they should be the exterior color. SN
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dragonlanceHR
Established Member Posted 15 October 2010 - 04:22 PM

#9

Nic,
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whatever happened to the idea of using RAF Hemp colour for IJN grey? Its also one of those maybe greenish maybe brownish greys.... Regards, Vedran

expositor
New Member Posted 15 October 2010 - 07:26 PM

#10

hi nick and steve, nick, no response is 'late;' i really appreciate your time in sharing your knowledge. i think testors has a middlestone color so i'll try that, though i do have humbrol's as well. since my particular interest is naval and maritime aviation, i have that desert color so i can eventually do a couple of russian navy p-40 tomahawks; your mix suggestion with the rlm 02 should be close enough for any zeke i might finish. might i also ask if that color was used throughout the war for not only the undersurfaces of later zekes, but for the other naval combat aircraft as well? steve, that zeke looks great, and as the hospital porter said to john merrick, "...i wouldn't change a thing(!)" by the way, i don't think you're wrong on the wheelwell color either, at least for the earlier versions, but hey, what do i know...?

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nick, re: the rear cockpit area, i thought that was just the interior green shade specific to the manufacturer; if you say black, then black (or blue-black?) it is! many thanks again! jim
Edited by expositor, 15 October 2010 - 07:27 PM.

Nick Millman
Very Obsessed Member Posted 15 October 2010 - 08:03 PM dragonlanceHR, on Oct 15 2010, 05:22 PM, said: Nic, Gold Member whatever happened to the idea of using RAF Hemp colour for IJN grey? Its also one of those maybe greenish maybe brownish greys.... 2,418 posts Regards, Vedran

#11

Hi Vedran If you re-read my post I think you will see that I do mention RAF Hemp as being very similar . . . As with all colours it depends on how close is close . . . Regards Nick

Nick Millman
Very Obsessed Member Posted 15 October 2010 - 08:33 PM expositor, on Oct 15 2010, 08:26 PM, said:

#12

might i also ask if that color was used throughout the war for not only the undersurfaces of later zekes, but for the other naval combat aircraft as well? Gold Member nick, re: the rear cockpit area, i thought that was just the interior green shade specific to the manufacturer; if you say black, then black (or blue-black?) it is! 2,418 posts

Hi James Once the Nakajima built Zero appeared on the scene there were slightly different colours in play but Mitsubishi went on using it after the dark green camouflage was introduced. To begin with the Nakajima 'grey' tended to be an even more amber hue than the Mitsubishi but from about mid-1943, after the dark green upper surfaces were introduced, the Nakajima grey changed to a light medium "cool" grey without the strong amber appearance. Other companies such as Aichi did use similar "warm" olive greys to the Mitsubishi too. The cockpit decking is verified by the recovery of several actual examples and you can see one here where the remains of the canopy frame has protected the original paint:http://www.straggler...re-colours.html The Hasegawa kits, I think, suggest painting this area the upper surface colour which may be where the idea came from but the anti-glare areas were specified to include the decking under the canopy so, whilst not ruling it out, such a finish (using the upper surface colour) would have to be considered as non-standard. The Mitsubishi blue-black was similar to FS 25042 and tended to fade rapidly towards a blue-grey whilst one example from Nakajima is closer to FS 27038. The colour was "black" in exactly the same way that RAF Night was "black". Both paints contained ultramarine pigment and the difference between Mitsubishi and Nakajima was probably due to the procurement of synthetic and natural ultramarine pigments which had not been specified. HTH Regards Nick

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expositor
New Member Posted 17 October 2010 - 06:42 AM

#13

hi nick, many thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions, and providing that link. now, if i could manage finishing a zeke that looks half as nice as steve's....
Members 66 posts

sincerely, jim

Mentalguru
Very Obsessed Member Posted 17 October 2010 - 08:22 AM

#14

Hi guys- very interesting thread- thank you all for making it so. Nice indeed to have an "open to all" Japanese topic thread, one that does what it says on the tin without constant referral to J-aircraft, and to have knowledge delivered in a concise and polite manner.
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Graham Boak
Completely Obsessed Member Posted 17 October 2010 - 09:16 AM

#15

There's an immense amount of information on j-aircraft. What is wrong with pointing those seeking information on Japanese colours at one of the best sources? Who knows, they might even find something that interests them outside of their initial query.

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