Crlglnally publlshed ln new lormaLlons, n. 49, Sprlng 2003, London, pp. 73-90.

1rans-Genes|s: An Interv|ew w|th Lduardo kac

Lduardo kac (2003) - |nterv|ew by L|sa Lynch

As Lhe year 2000 drew Lo a close, Lduardo kac may well have reflecLed LhaL unpredlcLablllLy
- a conslsLenL elemenL ln hls arL pracLlce - had become a drlvlng force ln hls llfe slnce Lhe
blrLh of Alba Lhe glowlng rabblL. Much Lo hls surprlse, kac had become a celebrlLy, due Lo a
snag ln Lhe execuLlon of hls arL plece Cl 8unny. 1he Lransgenlc rabblL whose creaLlon kac
had seL lnLo moLlon had aLLracLed Lhe aLLenLlon of everyone from ArLnews Lo 8lology news Lo
A8C news afLer Lhe lab LhaL creaLed her refused Lo release her Lo kac, who had lnLended Lo
ralse her aL home. lrom summer of 2000 onwards, kac has been lnLervlewed endlessly abouL
l'affalr Alba," an ongolng cusLody baLLle LhaL lnvolves ldeas of lnLellecLual properLy, arLlsLlc
freedom, and Lhe safeLy and proprleLy of allowlng Lransgenlc anlmals Lo move ouL of Lhe lab
and lnLo Lhe world aL large.

Much of Lhe furor abouL Alba, however, has managed Lo ellde Lhe larger sLory behlnd Alba's
creaLlon - and, for LhaL maLLer, Lhe long Lra[ecLory of kac's career LhaL has led Lo creaLlon of
whaL kac descrlbes as Lransgenlc arL." lor aL leasL Lhe pasL Lwo decades, kac (pronounced
kaLz) has been lnLeresLed ln explorlng Lhe lnLerface beLween Lechnology and Lhe vlsual arLs.
AfLer comlng Lo Lhe u.S. from 8razll ln Lhe mld-1980s, kac flrsL became known for
holopoems" LhaL used holography Lo Lransform Lhe experlence of readlng. ln hls subsequenL
work, he has deployed LelecommunlcaLlons and lnLerneL Lechnology, roboLlcs, v8, and now
bloLechnology Lo creaLe arLwork LhaL conslsLenLly emphaslzes Lhe role of Lhe audlence ln Lhe
producLlon of meanlng. Cver Lhe years, Lhese pro[ecLs have been exhlblLed ln places such as
aL Lhe annual Luropean dlglLal arLs fesLlval Ars LlecLronlca, Lhe new ?ork CenLer for Medla
ArLs, new ?ork, Lhe Museum of Modern ArL ln 8lo de !anelro, 8razll, and Lhe ?okohama
1rlennale, ln !apan. kac hlmself, now an AssoclaLe rofessor aL Lhe School of Lhe ArL lnsLlLuLe
of Chlcago, has come Lo wlLness Lhe lncreased lnLeresL ln boLh hls own work and Lhe work of
newly emerglng arLlsLs who share hls concerns.

1hls lnLeresL was amply demonsLraLed by Lhe crowds LhaL gaLhered around kac's work
Cenesls when lL was on vlew durlng SepLember and CcLober 2000 as parL of a ManhaLLan
gallery show called aradlse now: lcLurlng ArL ln Lhe CeneLlc Age." ln Cenesls, kac plays
slmulLaneously wlLh Lhe muLablllLy of language and Lhe muLablllLy of llfe forms. 1he plece has
lLs genesls" ln Lhe Lngllsh verslon of a 8lbllcal verse - LeL man have domlnlon over Lhe flsh
of Lhe sea, and Lhe fowl of Lhe alr, and over every llvlng Lhlng LhaL moves upon Lhe earLh." kac
flrsL converLed Lhls senLence lnLo Morse code, Lhe Morse code characLers were Lhen
LranslaLed lnLo Lhe four leLLers of Lhe geneLlc code. WlLh Lhe help of geneLlclsL Charles SLrom,
kac Lhen had a bloLech company synLheslze Lhe gene wrlLLen" by Lhe code, and lnserLed Lhls
gene lnLo a bacLerla culLure. 1o see" Lhe geneLlc arLwork, vlewers hlL a Loggle buLLon - ln
Lhe gallery or vla Lhe lnLerneL - and a uv llghL slmulLaneously lllumlnaLes Lhe bacLerla and
muLaLes lL Lhrough ulLravloleL exposure. Lach Llme Cenesls has been shown (ln Llnz, So
aulo, Chlcago, new ?ork, ?okohama, ALhens, Madrld, and lLLsburgh) a new LranslaLlon" of
Lhe 8lble verse, and a new sLraln of bacLerla, have been produced.



Whlle Cenesls suggesLs LhaL Lhe ordlnary gallery vlslLor - or lnLerneL surfer - can ln facL galn
access Lo Lhe bulldlng blocks of Lhe geneLlc code, Lhe unlnLended conLroversy surroundlng
Cl 8unny has suggesLed LhaL Lhe bloLech lndusLry ls loaLh Lo loosen lLs grlp on Lhe rlghL Lo
own" geneLlc manlpulaLlon. kac's lnLenLlon was Lo creaLe a Lransgenlc anlmal ln a research
lab - one LhaL would glow when a gene derlved from fluorescenL [ellyflsh proLeln (Cl) was
added Lo lLs unA - and Lhen ralse Lhls anlmal as a domesLlc peL. 1he resulLlng work would
address lssues lncludlng whaL kac labels Lransphobla" and Lhe LreaLmenL of laboraLory
research anlmals. Crlglnally, kac planned Lo creaLe a glowlng dog (Cl k9) buL he declded Lo
pursue hls ldea wlLh a lrench lab, ln8A, LhaL had lnLegraLed Cl lnLo rabblL unA. 1he
resulLlng rabbblL, whlch kac and hls famlly named Alba, was born ln lebruary 2000. kac
announced he would spend one week wlLh Alba ln a performance space ln Avlgnon ln !une of
2000, and Lhen brlng her Lo Lhe unlLed SLaLes.

As of uecember 2000, however, Alba remalns aL ln8A. 1he lab clalms LhaL kac never galned
Lhe auLhorlzaLlon Lo Lake her home, such an acLlon, a spokesperson has suggesLed, would be
a sclenLlflc and eLhlcal lmproprleLy. kac ls acLlvely pursulng Lhe llberaLlon" of Alba from
ln8A, on hls webslLe, (www.ekac.org), he expresses a concern for her welfare LhaL can only
be descrlbed as parenLal. ln Lhe meanLlme, medlcal eLhlclsLs have denounced kac as
lrresponslble, anlmal rlghLs acLlvlsLs have halled hls efforLs Lo free Lhe glowlng rabblL, and kac
hlmself has been shuLLllng around Lhe unlLed SLaLes and Lurope explalnlng hls ldeas abouL
Lransgenlc arL" and Alba - and belng explalned, ln Lurn, by boLh sclenLlsLs and arL crlLlcs
who lnvelgh abouL Lhe slgnlflcance or presumpLlveness of hls pro[ecL. ln Lhe mldsL of all Lhls
furor, kac Look some Llme Lo meeL wlLh me ln hls offlce aL Lhe SAlC. We dlscussed hls pasL and
currenL pro[ecLs, and l asked kac Lo glve hls own lnLerpreLaLlon of Lhe currenL debaLe abouL
Alba and whaL she represenLs.

Let's start off ta|k|ng about your ear||er work. I'm cur|ous about the way your career has
covered vast|y d|fferent geograph|c and conceptua| terra|ns. Ior examp|e, you began your
career as an art|st |n 8raz|| |n the ear|y 1980s, w|th performance p|eces that had a def|n|te
po||t|ca| d|mens|on.

My early work emerges ln a very speclflc conLexL. ln Lhe early 1980s, 8razll was sLlll under a
mlllLary dlcLaLorshlp LhaL was suppresslng freedom of speech and ellmlnaLlng publlc space, lL
also LorLured and kllled lLs own clLlzens. AL Lhe same Llme, however, Lhls governmenL had
collapsed economlcally, globallzaLlon was Laklng lLs lnlLlal sLeps, and Lhe proLecLlonlsL model
of Lhe mlllLary dlcLaLorshlp was no longer useful. So Lhe counLry was movlng Lowards a
LranslLlon, buL lL was sLlll under a clear mlllLary rule. lL remalned an envlronmenL where Lhe
prlmary ldea of Lhe body was LhaL of Lhe LorLured body, of Lhe dlsLorLed body, of Lhe sufferlng
body. ln Lhls conLexL, l saw Lhe opporLunlLy as clLlzen and as an arLlsL Lo creaLe publlc space
where Lhere wasn'L one. l was lnsplred by Marcuse, 8elch, 8arLhes, Lo Lhlnk abouL how a
parLlcular world vlew - ln Lhls case, Lhe world vlew of Lhls dlcLaLorshlp - baslcally
consLralned Lhe body and channeled lLs llbldlnal power Lowards producLlve labor. l wondered
how Lo unleash LhaL creaLlve power of Lhe llbldo ln a manner LhaL would help Lo rebulld Lhe
counLry, and help Lo bulld a sense of awareness of Lhe slLuaLlon we were faclng aL LhaL Llme.

My background, prlor Lo Lhese flrsL performances, was ln llLeraLure - speclflcally
experlmenLal wrlLlng - and communlcaLlons. As a very young man, Lhe llLLle money LhaL l
had wenL lnLo Lhls fanLasLlc booksLore ln 8lo LhaL baslcally broughL ln everyLhlng from Spaln,,

lLaly, unlLed SLaLes, lrance, and Lngland. lrom LhaL booksLore, l acqulred an undersLandlng of
llLeraLure and arL hlsLory. And when l declded Lo go Lo school, and l could noL flnd a sulLable
arL school - Lhls ls 8razll LwenLy years ago - l wenL lnLo a communlcaLlons program, where l
sLudled phllosophy and llngulsLlcs and semloLlcs.

So, comlng from Lhls paLched-LogeLher educaLlon, l seL ouL Lo form a performance group, and
sLaged performances ln publlc spaces over a perlod of abouL Lwo years. MosL Look place on
lrlday nlghLs ln a square ln Lhe hearL of 8lo, Clnelandla, bordered by Lhe naLlonal Llbrary and
Lhe Munlclpal 1heaLre. Cn frlday nlghLs Lhe bars, resLauranLs and sldewalks of Lhls square are
populaLed by blue-collar workers, LransvesLlLes, sLudenLs, male/female prosLlLuLes, and
lnLellecLuals. 1hese performances were abouL developlng a new sense of body pollLlcs, ln
whlch Lhe body became a slLe of pleasure LhaL could ln Lurn lgnlLe a sense of clvlc
reconsLrucLlon, Lhey were Lhus exLremely pollLlcal. Powever, Lhey were also exLremely
humorous, l would walk around Lhls square ln a plnk mlnlsklrL - a plece of cloLhlng LhaL
suggesLed, leL's say, someLhlng oLher Lhan performance arL ln Lhls envlronmenL - and l
would reclLe brlef poems, whaL l Lhen called porn poeLry. 1hls poeLry had noLhlng Lo do wlLh
pornography ln Lhe sense of explolLaLlon of sexuallLy: lnsLead, Lhe poems were almed aL Lhe
undolng of LhaL explolLaLlon. ln a sense, Lhe language of pornography was approprlaLed Lo
undo pornography, as l laLer approprlaLed Lhe Lools of sclence and Lechnology. 1hls undolng
happened Lhrough my creaLlng new meanlngs for Lhe words ln quesLlon, meanlngs LhaL
expressed a world-vlew LhaL was pollLlcally crlLlcal and celebraLed Lhe volces of persons who
don'L geL heard.

1hls semanLlc pro[ecL of reclalmlng, and Lhe ldea of Lhe flesh expressed ln language, ln Lurn
led Lo a serles of performances ln whlch l wroLe wlLh my own body. l began Lo documenL
some of Lhese performances ln phoLographs: aL LhaL Llme, l was looklng Lo focus on language
and medla, and Lo focus on soclal lssues on a larger scale, ln a way ln whlch physlcal presence
would noL be a necessary componenL of Lhe work. Some of Lhese lmages were publlshed ln a
book, Lscracho, LhaL l publlshed ln 1983, aL Lhe end of my performance work. Lscracho also
feaLures Lhe work of oLher wrlLers and arLlsLs whose work was lmporLanL Lo me aL Lhe Llme -
for example Lhe work of CLavlo uonascl. Pe creaLed whaL he descrlbed as vldeoLheaLre, ln
whlch Lhe acLor's head ls replaced by a verLlcal Lelevlslon seL, Lhe resulLlng acLor ls a
comblnaLlon of a human body and an elecLronlc head.

our acqua|ntance w|th Donasc| a|so |ed you through a cha|n of c|rcumstance to your
next pro[ect, the creat|on of ho|ograph|c poems.

When l flnlshed Lscracho, l wenL Lo Sao aulo and gave uonascl a copy of Lhe book. We
Lurned Lo dlscusslng whaL l wanLed Lo focus on nexL. l Lold hlm LhaL afLer all Lhese
experlmenLs ln verbal-vlsual expresslon ln dlfferenL medla, Lhe nexL pro[ecL l lmaglned was
noL so much a semanLlc pro[ecL, buL raLher a synLacLlc pro[ecL LhaL would creaLe an
lmmaLerlal llngulsLlc form. l wanLed Lo creaLe a poeLlcs LhaL would be based noL on Lhe
physlcal rlgldlLy of language as we experlence lL on Lhe page, buL LhaL would lnsLead sLep off
Lhe page, sLlll, lL would noL fully flnd lLself embodled. A poeLlcs, ln oLher words, LhaL would
exlsL beLween Lwo dlmenslons and Lhree dlmenslons, LhaL would change and Lransform lLself
accordlng Lo dlfferenL polnLs of vlew. ln such a klnesLheLlcally orlenLed work, Lhe acL of
readlng would lmpacL meanlng and language could change color or could change form.


When l was Len years old, l had read an arLlcle on holography, and l was so lnLrlgued LhaL l'd
kepL lL, l had [usL reread lL. l sald Lo uonascl, l don'L know, Lhls seems really dlfflculL, lL
lnvolves experlmenLaLlon ln a lab, buL Lhe resulL of Lhls holographlc process sounds very much
llke whaL l would be lnLeresLed ln creaLlng." And he sald, l acLually know someone who [usL
seL up a holography lab." l wenL Lo Lhls lab and saw a hologram for Lhe flrsL Llme. lL was clear
Lo me Lhen LhaL someone had lnvenLed a Lechnology LhaL would allow me Lo address Lhe
aesLheLlc problem l had creaLed for myself. So l sLarLed Lo work wlLh LhaL medlum
lmmedlaLely. l creaLed Lhese dlssolvlng llngulsLlc sLrucLures LhaL were dynamlc and beauLlful,
and whlch Lled meanlng Lo Lhe polnL of vlew of Lhe observer. l called Lhem holographlc poeLry
or holopoeLry. l produced holopoems from 1983 Lo 1993, abouL LwenLy or so.

ln holopoeLry, l seL ouL Lo undermlne Lhe Lwo-dlmenslonal page, Lhe Lwo-dlmenslonal LexL.
lrom no perspecLlve can you have Lhe LoLallLy of Lhe LexL. When l have Lheorlzed holopoeLry,
l have Lalked abouL lL ln Lerms of Lhree prlmary aspecLs, dlsconLlnuous synLax, blnocular
readlng, and semanLlc lnLerpolaLlon. ulsconLlnuous synLax means LhaL Lhe LexL ls never seen
from a slngle perspecLlve, Lhere are always [umps LhaL exlsL as Lruly Lopologlcal, fourLh-
dlmenslonal [umps. 8lnocular readlng means LhaL a condlLlon can be creaLed whlle readlng ln
whlch your lefL eye reads one word whlle your rlghL eye reads a compleLely dlfferenL word,
and readlng Lhus becomes a more lnLense experlence. SemanLlc lnLerpolaLlon means LhaL a
sllghL movemenL of your head produces someLhlng else, Lhe process of lnLerpolaLlng beLween
Lhlngs LhaL allude Lo dlfferenL semanLlc flelds ln Lurn produces new meanlng. lor example,
Lhlnk of Lhe word 'sun' and Lhe word 'knlfe.' lf you Lhlnk of 'black' and 'whlLe 'you can Lhlnk of
a word LhaL deslgnaLes a mlddle poslLlon beLween Lhe Lwo - gray - buL Lhere ls no Lerm for
beLween 'sun' and 'knlfe.' WhaL l wlsh Lo do ls noL Lo sLablllze LhaL condlLlon, buL Lo produce
Lhe osclllaLlon beLween Lhe Lwo exLremes vlsually so you suggesL a word wlLhouL flxlng Lhe
word.

our product|on of ho|opoetry "|n the |ab," so to speak, was the f|rst |nstance when you
co||aborated w|th a sc|ent|st or eng|neer to produce an artwork.

WlLh holopoeLry, l had a very speclflc ob[ecLlve, buL dldn'L have any experlence wlLh Lhe
medlum. So l wenL Lhrough a qulck learnlng process, and sLarLed Lo wrlLe Lhe holopoems
myself. lL's never an lssue of leL me see whaL l can do wlLh Lhls," or oh, you make alrplanes?
LeL me see lf l can make alrplane arL." lL's always someLhlng LhaL has Lo do wlLh my lnqulry
and lnlLlaLlve. Cf course, someLlmes Lhe sclenLlsLs lnvolved have Lhelr own lnLeresLs and Lhelr
own lnqulrles, and someLlmes Lhese lnLeresLs colnclde, someLlmes a sclenLlsL or englneer wlll
be lnLeresLed ln a pro[ecL for hls or her own reasons. l flnd when worklng wlLh sclenLlsLs or
englneers LhaL Lhe dlalogue ls fanLasLlc: Lhey have a world-vlew and vocabulary enLlrely
separaLe from LhaL of arLlsLs and wrlLers. lL ls my hope LhaL Lhe sclenLlsLs galn as much
lnLellecLually as l do from Lhe process of worklng LogeLher.

At the same t|me you were work|ng on ho|opoetry, you began work|ng on a ser|es of other
pro[ects. Cou|d you descr|be th|s other work?

Aslde from holography, anoLher lmmaLerlal domaln for Lhe word-lmage hybrld LhaL l was
explorlng aL Lhe Llme was Lhe emerglng global neLwork. lL ls lmporLanL Lo be clear LhaL
neLwork" here lncludes Lhe pre-lnLerneL neLwork. 1he currenL sLaLe of Lhe lnLerneL ls noL
Lden, lL ls [usL one momenL ln a long hlsLory of neLworklng. 1he lnLerneL of Lhe fuLure wlll be

very dlfferenL from Lhe lnLerneL of Loday, [usL as when l sLarLed Lo work wlLh neLworklng ln
1983 Lhe neLwork felL very dlfferenL. lL was equally exclLlng, buL Lhe way you worked, whaL
you were able Lo accompllsh, Lhe Lopology of Lhe neLwork, how you were Lo reach ouL Lo
oLher spaces and how Lhe audlence experlenced lL, everyLhlng was dlfferenL. My flrsL neLwork
pro[ecLs were wlLh Lhe LelecommunlcaLlons neLwork, l sLarLed Lo work wlLh Lhe lrench
MlnlLel sysLem ln 1983. l creaLed a serles of flve or slx pleces LhaL would dlsplay on Lhe MlnlLel
screen, pleces LhaL were abouL language emerglng over Llme. lL was an exclLlng fronLler for
arLlsLs aL Lhe Llme, because you were creaLlng Lruly lmmaLerlal arLwork. 1here was a sense
LhaL Lhe process of demaLerlallzaLlon of Lhe arL ob[ecL had reached a klnd of closure. WlLh Lhe
beglnnlng of Lhe neLworks, we sLarLed Lo bulld someLhlng new.

Can you exp|a|n what you mean by |mmater|a| artwork?

ArLlsLs have wrlLLen abouL demaLerlallzaLlon LhroughouL Lhe 20Lh cenLury. erhaps Lhe
process sLarLed wlLh uuchamp and Cabo, and lL may have been flrsL Lheorlzed by Lhe 8usslan
consLrucLlvlsL LlsslsLzky, who acLually used Lhe word demaLerlallzaLlon" - Moholy-nagy also
spoke of vlrLual sculpLures, sculpLures LhaL do noL have volume buL Lhrough moLlon are
percelved Lo have volume. 8uL Lhls experlmenLaLlon galned closure wlLh Lhe rlse of
communlcaLlons medla, lncludlng vldeo, and Lhe passage lnLo a Lruly lmmaLerlal means of
producLlon, Lhe neLwork. 1he neLwork enabled us Lo creaLe, presenL, and experlence works
LhaL are purely dlglLal or LhaL hybrldlze Lhe dlglLal and Lhe analogue. lL ls noL longer a maLLer
of reduclng Lhe maLerlallLy of an arL work (concepLuallsm), or approprlaLlng an exlsLlng ob[ecL
(ready-made), or mlnlmlzlng Lhe form of a consLrucLed plece (mlnlmallsm). 1he neLwork
enables us Lo creaLe lmmaLerlal work LhaL prlvlllges lnLerpersonal communlcaLlon as an
arLlsLlc sLraLegy, where whaL ls really lmporLanL ls Lhe flow of daLa Lhrough cyberspace, Lhe
nomadlc and ephemeral neLwork Lopologles creaLed by arLlsLs, and Lhe modallLles of
lnLersub[ecLlve remoLe lnLeracLlon. WlLh a neLwork you can also reach ouL beyond geographlc
borders.

I'm cur|ous about the tens|on between th|s |nterest |n e||m|nat|on of geograph|c borders
that I see |n your network pro[ects th|s seems a pers|stent character|st|c, as we||, of most
new med|a art and the geograph|c spec|f|c|ty of your ear||er work, wh|ch seems
grounded |n the po||t|cs of the nat|on-state.

1haL sorL of naLlonal ldenLlLy ls noL really someLhlng l am concerned wlLh now. l was
concerned wlLh lL aL Lhe Llme because Lhere was a sense of urgency LhaL was exLremely
lnLense and as a young arLlsL l felL l had Lo respond. Also, Lo reduce LhaL work only Lo Lhe
pollLlcs of naLlonal ldenLlLy would be erroneous: Lhe llLerary aspecL of LhaL pro[ecL was also
very lmporLanL, and LhaL was lnformed by conLexLs beyond Lhe pollLlcs of 8razll. l even don'L
really llke Lhe Lerm naLlonal ldenLlLy." lL [usL so happens LhaL - by geographlc accldenL, as ls
always Lhe case - you happen Lo be born somewhere and when you open your eyes you do
LhaL ln a parLlcular conLexL. 1haL wlll lnevlLably lnform one's ldenLlLy, you don'L llve
somewhere for a long perlod of Llme and lgnore Lhe envlronmenL. 8uL once l made Lhe
LranslLlon from Lhe early performance work, l Lurned Lo work LhaL looked beyond such
geographlc conLexLs, LhaL had Lo do lnsLead wlLh overcomlng geographlc dlsLance. Worklng ln
Lhe lmmaLerlal realm of Lhe neLwork allowed me Lo do Lhls.



Cf course, we can'L speak of Lhls nalvely. We have Lo undersLand LhaL Lngllsh ls Lhe llngua
franca of Loday, as lrench was once and LaLln before LhaL. 1haL facL enables Lhose who work
wlLh Lngllsh Lo go beyond naLlonallLy, because LhaL's Lhe language of buslness, LhaL's Lhe
language of Lhe lnLerneL, LhaL's Lhe language of pop culLure worldwlde.

So wou|d you descr|be yourse|f as |ess po||t|ca| |n your current work?

l don'L really separaLe Lhe phllosophlcal lnqulry from Lhe pollLlcal. 1here ls a very lmporLanL
phllosophlcal dlmenslon ln my laLer work LhaL exLends from my earller sense of engagemenL.
8eglnnlng ln Lhe holopoeLry, and especlally ln my work wlLh LelecommunlcaLlons and
Lelepresence, my work embraces whaL l have called a dlaloglc aesLheLlcs. ulaloglc arL ls noL
framed as sLable maLerlal composlLlon Lo produce conLemplaLlon and lnLerpreLaLlon, buL ls
predlcaLed on Lhe ldea LhaL whaL sub[ecLs brlng Lo Lhe work conLrlbuLes Lo Lhe experlence
LhaL Lhey have. WlLh holopoeLry, Lhls aesLheLlcs was presenL buL subdued. vlewers dldn'L
need Lo do much Lo engage wlLh Lhe work: [usL a sllghL movemenL of Lhelr head would mean
LhaL a leLLer or word would dlsappear, and Lhls would enable Lhem Lo experlence Lhe facL LhaL
Lhey were consLrucLlng meanlng Lhrough Lhelr process of looklng. 8uL ln Lhe neLwork pro[ecLs
LhaL followed my mlnlLel work sub[ecLs are acLlvely engaged.

ulaloglc aesLheLlcs ls a challenge Lo convenLlonal ldeas abouL arL-maklng. lf you have a
dlalogue, you cerLalnly don'L have Lhe LradlLlonal ldea of Lhe arLlsL as an lndlvldual who ls
solely responslble for Lhe work. l have been Lrylng Lo creaLe arLworks ln whlch you can sLlll
recognlze Lhe role of Lhe arLlsL - Lhere's a LlLle LhaL helps frame a sense of lnqulry, and Lhere
ls a speclflc maLerlal conLexL - buL whaL acLually unfolds ls noL someLhlng LhaL l can conLrol.
Cne could say LhaL wlLh any arLwork Lhere ls an elemenL of unconLrollablllLy, slnce
lnLerpreLaLlon ls noL someLhlng LhaL Lhe arLlsL can conLrol. 8uL ln dlaloglc work Lhls
unconLrollablllLy ls manlfesLed ln a klnesLheLlc manner. 1he formaLlon of meanlng ls noL
lnLrospecLlve, noL someLhlng LhaL happens purely and slmply aL a level of cognlLlon. ?ou are
an acLlve, physlcal maker of meanlng. 1hrough Lhls process of maklng meanlng - ldeally -
Lhe vlewer wlll come lnLo conLacL wlLh hls or her own process of dlscovery and creaLlvlLy.

I've read a coup|e of art|c|es that suggest you fee| that d|a|og|c art |s a necessary d|rect|on
of contemporary art, that we cannot re|y on art forms of the past to commun|cate the
comp|ex|t|es of the present. I be||eve both of them quoted you as say|ng, "|t makes no
sense to pa|nt as we pa|nted |n the caves."

ln Lhose arLlcles l'm belng quoLed ouL of conLexL from a long response LhaL l gave Lo a
quesLlon abouL Lhe relaLlonshlp beLween arL of Lhe pasL and arL of Lhe presenL. alnLlng has a
clrcumscrlbed maLerlallLy, a speclflc reach and scope, oLher medla offer dlfferenL posslblllLles
LhaL palnLlng can never possess, such as connecLlvlLy and lmmaLerlallLy, for example. So Lhe
quesLlon ls noL Lhe deaLh of palnLlng, buL an undersLandlng of lLs hlsLorlcal llmlLaLlons. WhaL
we cannoL afford ls Lo have a hlerarchy of medla, wlLh one medlum aL Lhe Lop and oLher
medla formlng Lhe base of Lhe pyramld. ln arL whaL ls lmporLanL ls noL only Lhe cholce of
medla, buL Lhe level of accompllshmenL wlLhln a speclflc medlum. CreaL palnLlng ls greaL arL
as much as a greaL neLwork plece ls greaL arL, one noL belng more lmporLanL Lhan Lhe oLher
slmply because of Lhe execuLlon medlum. PlsLorlcally, we need Lo develop Lechnologlcal
llLeracy, l.e., we need Lo formulaLe a crlLlcal vocabulary LhaL ls noL anchored Lo Lhe pasL, wlLh
whlch we wlll be able Lo recognlze and dlscuss wlLh profundlLy greaL achlevemenL ln

lmmaLerlal medla. arL of Lhe currenL problem ls lack of ouLleLs for LhaL whlch ls dlfferenL.
ulaloglcal aesLheLlcs ls an alLernaLlve, a dlfferenL way of Lhlnklng abouL and maklng arL.

And the techno|ogy you beg|n to work w|th enab|es th|s a|ternat|ve.

?es. 1hrough LelecommunlcaLlons arL a more lnLenslfled dlaloglcal experlence became
posslble. ln LelecommunlcaLlons arL, l could lncorporaLe geographlc dlsLance, Llme zones, and
Lhe absence of vlsual lmmedlacy as an aesLheLlc elemenL. 8uL more lmporLanLly, l could
enable vlewers Lo use Lhe neLwork Lo negoLlaLe meanlng, and also Lo creaLe a Lruly vlsual
dlalogue by sendlng, recelvlng and Lransformlng LexL sound and lmage. And when l shlfLed Lo
whaL l call Lelepresence arL, l was able Lo add yeL anoLher elemenL of agency and remoLe
physlcallLy Lo Lhe neLwork envlronmenL. 1elepresence arL Look Lhe prevlous work ln
LelecommunlcaLlons and Lhen coupled lL wlLh roboLlcs. ln sclence, anoLher Lerm used for Lhls
Lechnologlcal coupllng ls LeleroboLlcs - dolng someLhlng aL a dlsLance. 8uL Lhe sclenLlflc Lerm
emphaslzes whaL ls less lnLeresLlng Lo me. l am less concerned wlLh remoLe operaLlons, and
more lnLeresLed ln sub[ecLlvlLy and soclal space. Whlle LelecommunlcaLlons allows us Lo
creaLe a vlrLual shared space desplLe dlsLance, Lelepresence allows us Lo ellmlnaLe Lhe effecLs
of dlsLance, lL allows Lo physlcally affecL or occupy LhaL shared space. WlLh Lelepresence, one
sub[ecLs oneself Lo a remoLe roboLlc body and flnds oneself lnslde LhaL body, able Lo make
declslons wlrelessly Lhrough Lhe neLwork.

When l began work wlLh Lelepresence, l was lnLeresLed ln Lwo Lhlngs LhaL emerge from Lhls
process of lnLerpolaLlon. llrsL was Lhe ldea of experlenclng a place, a world, a soclal
envlronmenL, from a perspecLlve oLher Lhan your own - boLh llLerally and symbollcally. ln my
own wrlLlng, l have suggesLed LhaL Lhls process of experlenclng a space from a perspecLlve
oLher Lhan your own calls for Lele-empaLhy, or empaLhy aL a dlsLance. 1hls ln Lurn provokes
an acuLe undersLandlng of one of Lhe cenLral aspecLs of conLemporary culLure, namely, LhaL
someLhlng LhaL exlsLs ln a remoLe space [usL beyond Lhe access of your senses sLlll has a
sLrong effecL ln your llfe, as Lhe meLaphor of Lhe buLLerfly effecL remlnds us. Second, l wanLed
Lo explore Lhe ldea LhaL Lhe elemenLs LhaL are puL ln place ln Lhe arL of Lelepresence -
lncludlng Lhe lnLerface, Lhe Lopology of Lhe neLwork, Lhe roboLlc body, Lhe space LhaL you
lnvenL, and Lhe relaLlve scale of LhaL space ln relaLlon Lo Lhe body of Lhe roboL - are less
abouL enabllng an experlence and more abouL consLrucLlng LhaL experlence. ln oLher words,
whaL Lhe vlewer ls engaged wlLh ls less, whaL ls lL llke Lo be Lhere?" Lhen, how do l consLrucL
meanlng?" And each person who experlences Lhe work wlll have a compleLely dlfferenL map
of LhaL space, Lhus a dlfferenL sense of meanlng, so Lhls space becomes mulLlplled vlcarlously.

WlLh Lhls ln mlnd, l sLarLed Lo open up Lwo dlfferenL rouLes of lnvesLlgaLlon, exempllfled ln
ulaloglcal urawlng (1994) and Lssay Concernlng Puman undersLandlng (1994). ulaloglcal
urawlng asked Lhe quesLlon: whaL ls Lhe condlLlon of Lhe arL ob[ecL ln a neLwork
envlronmenL? ulaloglcal urawlng conslsLs of whaL seems Lo be an arL ob[ecL LhaL you hang on
Lhe wall llke any oLher, lL has no wlres or anLennae marklng lL as dlfferenL. 8uL lf you look aL lL,
you soon noLlce LhaL someLhlng's happenlng: sounds are comlng from lL. LvenLually, Lhrough
your own process of dlscovery, you reallze Lhere ls an ldenLlcal ob[ecL hanglng ln anoLher
space, and someone else ls dolng [usL whaL Lhey are dolng: noLlclng LhaL Lhere ls someone on
Lhe oLher end. lf you say someLhlng, you flnd you can Lalk Lo Lhls oLher person remoLely. ?ou
Lhen sLop conLemplaLlng Lhe work aL a dlsLance and move closer Lo lL so Lhey can speak lnLo

lL, you sLop looklng, and creaLe Lhls shared menLal space. ?ou are no longer ln deLached
conLemplaLlon, buL ln a soclal sphere of dlaloglcal lnLeracLlon

noL all of my dlaloglcal proposlLlons are for humans, however. ln Lssay Concernlng Puman
undersLandlng, a blrd ls slnglng ln a cage 400 mlles away from a planL ln anoLher space. 1he
song Lravels Lo Lhe space, and ls played ln real Llme for Lhe planL. An elecLrode Louchlng Lhe
planL senses Lhe planL's response Lhrough mlcrovolLage flucLuaLlons, and uses LhaL daLa Lo
generaLe sound LhaL Lravels back Lo Lhe blrd. A sphere of soclal lnLeracLlon beLween members
of Lwo dlfferenL specles ls esLabllshed LhaL way. And whlle Lhe plece ls Lhus noL creaLed for
humans, humans are welcome Lo engage wlLh lL. When Lhey do approach Lhe planL and Lhe
blrd, Lhe behavlor of Lhe planL and Lhe blrd changes accordlng Lo how people behave. 1he
audlence becomes aware LhaL dependlng on whaL Lhey do, Lhe experlence Lhey have ls
dramaLlcally dlfferenL, afLer all, Lhe blrd and planL are senLlenL belngs respondlng Lo Lhelr
envlronmenL. So whaL we have ls a very complex example of whaL MaLurana calls consensual
domalns: shared spheres of percepLlon, cognlLlon and agency ln whlch Lwo or more senLlenL
belngs (human or oLherwlse) can negoLlaLe Lhelr experlence dlaloglcally.

noLe LhaL Lhls pro[ecL ls noL abouL slmulaLlon, lL ls abouL dlsLance. WhaL ls slgnlflcanL ls Lhe
facL LhaL someLhlng ls ln a dlfferenL space rlghL now. 1he vlewer/parLlclpanL doesn'L have
vlsual access Lo lL and has Lo helghLen Lhe oLher senses and work aL Lhe level of klnesLheLlc
experlence because he or she no longer has Lhe vlsual means Lo gulde experlence. 1he
lmporLance of Lhls drama of dlsLance, of geographlc separaLlon, has been severely
mlsundersLood ln arL-maklng, and my work has consLanLly soughL Lo produce Lhls awareness.

When you say "th|s |s not a pro[ect about s|mu|at|on," |t rem|nds me that one of the th|ngs
that I've not|ced about your work |s that |ack of |nterest |n s|mu|at|on and v|rtua||ty you
may use Vk headsets, but your |ntent|on |s not to pro[ect your v|ewers |nto a fabr|cated
un|verse.

A dlsembodled, deLached, purely vlrLual experlence ls noL really of greaL lnLeresL Lo me. l'm
lnLeresLed ln when dlfferenL senLlenL belngs and dlfferenL sub[ecLlvlLles come LogeLher and
become shared. ln Lhese momenLs, we can even enLerLaln from Lhe polnL of vlew of
lmaglnaLlon whaL lL mlghL be llke Lo occupy Lhese dlfferenL sub[ecLlvlLles. l don'L belleve LhaL
one can, of course. l can barely know who l am, how can l posslbly know whaL lL's llke Lo be
someone else?

1he |dea of occupy|ng the sub[ect|v|ty of another |s at the center of kara Av|s, a p|ece wh|ch
fo||ows Lssay Concern|ng numan Understand|ng.

8ara Avls (1996) ls an aLLempL Lo sLudy Lhe noLlon of exoLlclsm, whlch has Lo do wlLh
geographlc dlsLance and also wlLh lack of appreclaLlon of dlfference. 1he vlewer comes lnLo
Lhe gallery and puLs on a v8 headseL, he or she Lhen flnds hlm or herself ln Lhe body of Lhls
roboL blrd, a macaw. 1hls roboL macaw, ln Lurn, ls ln a cage shared wlLh 30 smaller gray blrds,
llve blrds, lL ls seL aparL from Lhem ln Lerms of boLh color and slze. Suddenly Lhe vlewer ls Lhls
exoLlc blrd ln Lhe cage, looklng ouL. Pe or she ls boLh Lhe ob[ecL and Lhe sub[ecL of
conLemplaLlon, ln a cage and ouLslde of a cage. When Lhe vlewer looks aL Lhe so-called
exoLlc", he sees hlmself.

ln anoLher work from Lhls perlod, uarker Lhan nlghL (1999), whaL Lhe vlewer experlences ls
Lhe sub[ecL perspecLlve of a baL ln darkness. l wanLed Lo creaLe momenLs of ephemeral
muLual awareness beLween human and baL. lL ls a common mlspercepLlon LhaL baLs are bllnd,
Lhey are noL bllnd, buL Lhey do experlence Lhe world prlmarlly Lhrough Lhelr echolocaLlon,
Lhelr sonar. So ln Lhls plece, you puL on a v8 headseL LhaL lnforms a roboLlc baL ln an acLual
baL cave Lo emlL ulLrasound. 1he baLs can hear and respond Lo Lhls sonar. 1he roboL Lhen
LransmlLs Lhe calls of Lhe baLs, whlch are converLed from ulLrasound Lo sound so LhaL humans
can hear Lhem. 1he place where sonlc emlsslons colnclde ls represenLed vlsually ln Lhe v8
headseL as a serles of movlng whlLe doLs agalnsL a black background.

1h|s emphas|s |n your work on human-an|ma| |ntersub[ect|ve commun|cat|on
h|gh||ghted, |n the works you've [ust descr|bed and |n your specu|at|ons on the "en|gma of
an|ma||ty" |n your recent GI 8unny pro[ect |s a|so a feature of contemporary wr|t|ng on
an|ma| eth|cs, work made popu|ar recent|y by the wr|t|ng of authors as d|verse as I.M.
Coetzee and eter S|nger. What |s your |nvestment |n an|ma| eth|cs, and are you read|ng
some of the new work that's come out on the top|c?

Much of my reflecLlon on anlmal eLhlcs comes from my readlng of phllosophy. l flnd LhaL Lhe
WesLern phllosophlcal canon ls faulLy ln lLs consLrucLlon of anlmallLy. 1haL ls Lo say, ln my
readlng, Lhe vlslons of anlmallLy presenL ln ArlsLoLle, uescarLes, Locke, LelbnlLz, and kanL are
blased ln regard Lo Lhe cognlLlve and emoLlonal llfe of anlmals. 1hls ls Lroubllng, because Lhe
ldea of humanlLy ln Lhls phllosophy ls largely based on Lhe dlfference beLween Lhe anlmal and
Lhe human. CognlLlve eLhology has unequlvocally demonsLraLed LhaL lssues such as self-
recognlLlon, Lool creaLlon and use, and Lhe Leachlng of culLural LralLs Lo Lhe young can no
longer be used Lo dlsLlngulsh humans from non-human anlmals. Lxamples lnclude uonald
Crlffln, !ane Coodall, lranz de Wall, and many more. And now, ln Lhe conLexL of geneLlcs, our
proxlmlLy Lo oLherness and Lo anlmallLy ls belng dlscussed ln ways LhaL exerL Lremendous
lnfluence on people's llves aL Lhe everyday level: healLh lnsurance, famlly plannlng, medlcal
research, prlvacy ln Lhe workplace, whaL we eaL. 1he wrlLlngs of SLeve 8aker, uonna Paraway
and Cary Wolfe, for example, have also conLrlbuLed slgnlflcanLly Lo Lhe developmenL of a
respecLful and LhoughLful approach Lo Lhe quesLlon of Lhe anlmal ln Lhe conLexL of arL and
culLure wlLhouL Lhe Lrapplngs of a counLer-producLlve an excesslve senLlmenLallLy.

I'd ||ke to move on to your two current pro[ects, Genes|s and GI 8unny. Genes|s seems to
me to draw together key aspects from the rest of your work a concern w|th the
v|sua||zat|on of |anguage and the cont|ngency of |anguage, a concern w|th the re|at|on
between man and an|ma|s, and what you descr|be e|sewhere as an "aesthet|cs of
te|epresence." Cou|d you speak a b|t about the genes|s of Genes|s?

?ou're rlghL ln noLlng LhaL Cenesls has a very sLrong sense of conLlnuaLlon wlLh lssues ln my
earller work. lL brlngs LogeLher Lhe semloLlc conLlnuum beLween word and lmage, Lhe sense
of LransformaLlon, Lhe ablllLy Lo modlfy someLhlng aL a dlsLance. Cenesls ls probably Lhe mosL
dramaLlc manlfesLaLlon of Lhls modlflcaLlon ln my work, because one ls modlfylng Lhe geneLlc
sLrucLure of llvlng organlsms. 8uL Cenesls ls also a deparLure, slnce lL ls Lhe flrsL Lransgenlc
arLwork l have developed and fully reallzed. My earller work couples Lhe blologlcal and
Lechnologlcal - creaLes a neLwork beLween Lhem, or an ecology beLween Lhem. 8uL ln
Cenesls and Cl 8unny Lhe blologlcal and Lechnologlcal come LogeLher. 1he process LhaL l use
Lo creaLe Lhe Cenesls gene ls absoluLely Lechnologlcal, absoluLely synLheLlc. Powever, once l

creaLe an organlsm, l cannoL separaLe whaL was dry ln Lhe laboraLory from someLhlng LhaL ls
muLaLed ln Lhe body of llvlng bacLerla. lL ls noL only Lhe blologlcal and Lechnologlcal LhaL are
conflaLed ln Lhls work, however, lL also becomes lmposslble Lo separaLe arL" from llfe." Cne
ls qulLe llLerally - wheLher ln Lhe gallery or from home - looklng aL llfe forms, whlch dld noL
exlsL as such before Lhe creaLlon of my work. ln facL, you're noL only looklng aL Lhem, you are
changlng Lhem from wlLhln when you do so. So Lhe ldea of geneLlc modlflcaLlon ls noL only ln
Lhe hands of Lhe arLlsL. lL ls noL [usL Lhe means for me Lo creaLe an arL ob[ecL. CeneLlc
modlflcaLlon ls bullL ln Lo Lhe acL of percelvlng Lhe arLwork. 1housands of people who have
vlslLed Lhe slLe have changed Lhe bacLerla.

Do you have any |dea exact|y how many peop|e have v|s|ted the s|te and mutated the
Genes|s bacter|a?

1he Cenesls server does keep a log flle, buL l don'L scruLlnlze lL. l used Lo keep log flles aL Lhe
beglnnlng of my lnLerneL arLwork. 8uL Lhey're huge, and Lhere are loLs of counLrles lnvolved,
and lL Lurned ouL Lo be Loo much work for no concreLe reason. l know LhaL people are vlslLlng
because Lhey wrlLe emalls, posL dlscusslon polnLs, publlsh arLlcles, eLc., one geLs a sense LhaL
Lhere ls a large response. l have no lnLeresL ln quanLlfylng Lhe experlence of arL.

What |s the durat|on of Genes|s? Is the code "trans|ated back" |nto Morse and reassemb|ed
after each exh|b|t?

Cenesls does noL have a speclflc duraLlon. Some gallerles hosL Lhe show for a few monLhs,
oLhers for a few weeks. 1haL ls noL someLhlng LhaL l deLermlne, LhaL ls deLermlned by Lhe
gallery. 1he code ls noL LranslaLed back afLer each and every show. When Cenesls premlered
aL Ars LlecLronlca ln 1999, l dld Lake lL back Lo Lhe lab and read lL back lnLo Morse, and Lhen
lnLo Lngllsh, and Lhen posLed Lhe resulLs. lL's noL Lhe polnL of Lhe plece Lo keep readlng aL
every presenLaLlon. l could see how lnLeresLlng lL could be Lo read all muLaLlons and look aL
Lhese dlfferenL meanlngs, buL LhaL would be a dlfferenL pro[ecL. ln Lhls pro[ecL, l'm really
focused on playfully explorlng Lhe amblgulLy of Lhe ldea of Lhe Cenesls" gene lLself. When l
speak of Lhe genesls gene l'm cerLalnly referrlng Lo Lhe genesls gene ln Lhe conLexL of my
work - noL a gene responslble for Lhe creaLlon of Lhe blbllcal Cenesls - buL Lhe amblgulLy
serves a purpose. We consLanLly see sclenLlsLs reduclng complex emoLlonal, behavloral, soclal
LralLs Lo a gene, for example, Lhe ' gay' gene or Lhe 'alcohollsm' gene. 1hls ls absurd. So,
llkewlse, here's Lhe Cenesls" gene. lL shows how rldlculous lL ls Lo reduce Lhe complexlLy of
human llfe and human cholce Lo a slmple unA sequence.

ou have wr|tten that the GI 8unny ro[ect, "compr|ses the creat|on of a green
f|uorescent rabb|t, |ts soc|a| |ntegrat|on, and the ensu|ng pub||c debate. 1he creat|on of
A|ba, and the pub||c debate, have certa|n|y been accomp||shed, but A|ba has not been
'soc|a||y |ntegrated,' you have not been a||owed to br|ng her home. I'd ||ke to ask a few
quest|ons about the debate surround|ng A|ba. Some sc|ent|sts and med|ca| eth|c|sts who
have been cr|t|ca| of GI 8unny have suggested that art |s not a suff|c|ent reason to engage
|n the sort of pro[ect that A|ba represents. Ior examp|e, b|o|og|st Stewart Newman, a
member of the U.S. Counc|| Ior kespons|b|e Genet|cs, has commented that "I don't th|nk
we shou|d be man|pu|at|ng comp|ex organ|sms |n the name of art." It seems that those who
make th|s cr|t|c|sm are m|staken |n assum|ng that the creat|on of "GI bunn|es" such as
A|ba |s un|que to your pro[ect.

Alba ls noL an experlmenL" - l dld noL wanL Lhls Lo be an experlmenL. l dld noL wanL Lhere Lo
be errors LhaL could resulL ln sufferlng or deformlLy. Louls-Marle Poudeblne, Lhe sclenLlsL aL
1he lrench naLlonal lnsLlLuLe for Argonomlc 8esearch (ln8A) LhaL worked wlLh me on Lhls
pro[ecL, has produced oLher rabblLs LhaL express green fluorescenL proLeln. l wouldn'L say he
does lL on a regular basls, aL Lhls polnL Lhe lnsLlLuLe has abouL Len anlmals. And Poudeblne
knows Lhe physlology of Lhe rabblL beLLer Lhan almosL anyone: Lhls ls why l chose Lo work
wlLh hlm. Pe was, by Lhe way, as surprlsed as l was abouL whaL happened wlLh Alba, because
we had boLh agreed on her comlng home wlLh me.

So Alba ls noL unlque: she ls only dlfferenL ln Lhe facL LhaL she expresses Cl ln Lhe enLlre
body. 1hls ls someLhlng generally only done when sclenLlsLs are developlng Lhe meLhod for
Cl expresslon ln a parLlcular anlmal. AfLer Lhls, Lhey go Lo LargeL expresslon. ln oLher words,
sclenLlsLs always sLudy a speclflc Lhlng, for example, hypoLheLlcally, how cancer spreads from
Lhe llver Lo Lhe lung. So Lhey aLLach Lhe gene for green fluorescenL proLeln Lo a speclflc
sequence, Lhus when an organlsm develops Lhey are able Lo observe ln vlvo how Lhe
parLlcular lssue manlfesLs lLself. ublqulLous, or full-body, gfp expresslon ls noL Loo common
because lL ls noL useful ln sclence.

8egardlng SLewarL newman's remark, ln an arLlcle publlshed ln new ?ork ArLs Magazlne
abouL my work, he was quoLed as conflrmlng Lhe valldlLy of Lhe arLlsLlc lnqulry and Lhe
conLrlbuLlon Lo culLural knowledge broughL by arL. ur. newman knows LhaL denylng arLlsLs
access Lo bloLechnology ls an unsusLalnable poslLlon. !usL llke all of us, he ls looklng for a new
way Lo undersLand and conLrlbuLe Lo Lhe changes underway.

Spokesmen for INkA have suggested that |t |s somehow |mproper or even dangerous for
A|ba to be taken outs|de of a |aboratory context. What do you make of th|s |mp||cat|on that
A|ba m|ght somehow "contam|nate" the non-transgen|c an|ma| popu|at|on were she to be
|et out of the |ab?

We have Lo quesLlon Lhe naLure of Lhe sLaLemenL from whlch Lhe quesLlon follows. l don'L
belleve Lhls Lo be a correcL sLaLemenL. l mean, we already see farms wlLh Lransgenlc plgs and
Lransgenlc sheep, Lhese anlmals aren'L ln Lhe wlld," cerLalnly, buL Lhey are ln conLacL wlLh
humans and oLher anlmals. lL seems Lo be a conLradlcLlon. lf Lransgenlc Lechnology ls safe for
Lhe producLlon of lnsulln and human proLeln ln Lhe mllk of plgs, eLc.- and lf lLs safe Lo have
Lhese anlmals ln conLacL wlLh oLher anlmals - Lhen Lhere ls noLhlng unsafe abouL Alba. ln
oLher words, Lhe very processes of sclence conLradlcL LhaL sLaLemenL. 1here's no problem
wlLh releaslng Alba, she's noL golng Lo do anyLhlng. She's [usL golng Lo be a bunny ln Lhe home
of a famlly. Cf course, lf Lhere are concerns abouL reproducLlon, l would agree Lo spay her. As
ls common knowledge, veLerlnarlans regularly recommend spaylng and neuLerlng dogs, caLs,
and rabblLs.

If "danger" |s not the |ssue w|th re|eas|ng A|ba, then what wou|d you say |s the |ssue?

Cf course l can only speculaLe. My susplclon ls LhaL Lhe former dlrecLor - Lhere ls now a new
dlrecLor, who came ln Lhe mlddle of all of Lhls - chose Lo Lake Lhe safe rouLe of maklng a
declslon based on whaL he percelved Lhe reacLlon of Lhe publlc mlghL be. 1hls ls lnsLead of
chooslng Lo play an acLlve role ln changlng publlc percepLlon of Lhls lssue. Changlng such
percepLlon ls preclsely, ln parL, whaL my work can conLrlbuLe.

When you say "pub||c," do you mean spec|f|ca||y the Irench pub||c, wh|ch seems to be
part|cu|ar|y anx|ous about b|otech research, or do you mean the |arger Luro-Amer|can
context for b|otech research?

l don'L Lhlnk Lhe dlrecLor was Lhlnklng lnLernaLlonally, he was Lhlnklng abouL Lhe lrench
publlc. 8uL Lhls pro[ecL ls lnLended Lo cross beLween norLh Amerlca and Lurope and Lhe world
over, and Lo promoLe a dlalogue beLween sclenLlsLs, arLlsLs, and Lhe publlc ln all places LhaL
such a dlalogue ls posslble. Poudeblne, when he became lnvolved wlLh Lhe pro[ecL, also felL
LhaL Lhls was an opporLunlLy Lo furLher such a dlalogue. unforLunaLely, Lhe dlrecLor dldn'L
seem Lo feel Lhls way.

1he |mp||c|t suggest|on here |s that transgen|c an|ma|s are on|y "safe," and on|y eth|ca||y
v|ab|e, |n a s|tuat|on where the|r creat|on |s t|ed |nto a sc|ent|f|ca||y |eg|t|mated not|on of
'human benef|t.' What |s your response to the |mp||cat|on that |t |s presumpt|ve for art to
|nsert |tse|f |nto the p|ace of th|s constructed |dea of "human benef|t?"

1hls quesLlon Lakes us lnLo a dlscusslon of meLanarraLlves. 8aslcally, mosL human endeavors
operaLe by havlng an exLernal dlscourse Lo [usLlfy lLs modus operandl. ln Lhe case of corporaLe
bloLech, we are Lold experlmenLaLlon ls greaL, lL's golng Lo generaLe wealLh and creaLe [obs,
lL's golng Lo poslLlon Lhe uS as a leadlng counLry ln Lhls new fleld." Well, Alba doesn'L
generaLe wealLh, Alba doesn'L creaLe [obs, Alba doesn'L conLrlbuLe Lo uS domlnaLlon ln world
affalrs. ln Lhe case of sclence, we're Lold, experlmenLaLlon ls greaL, because lL wlll save llves,
Lhls wlll cure cancer." Alba doesn'L save human llves. She doesn'L cure cancer. ln Lhe case of
anLl-bloLech, we're Lold, experlmenLaLlon ls bad because lL generaLes monsLers, devlanL, slck
problemaLlc llfe forms." Alba lsn'L sufferlng, she ls noL dlseased, she wlll noL cause dlsease. So
corporaLe bloLech, sclence, and anLl-bloLech don'L have Lhelr meLadlscourses Lo arLlculaLe
here. So whaL are we lefL wlLh? We are lefL wlLh Alba: our Lransgenlc oLher. Why ls Lhere so
much Lransphobla? WhaL ls Lhe lssue? Why are we afrald of Lransgenlc" when lLs near Lhe
word arL buL noL afrald of lL when lL ls near Lhe word sclence? ls lL LhaL we are afrald of Lhe
symbollc realm?

1h|s may seem ||ke an off-the-wa|| compar|son to you, but the GI 8unny pro[ect |n
part|cu|ar, your |ntended week-|ong cohab|tat|on w|th A|ba |n a ||v|ng room |nsta||at|on |n
Av|gnon keeps rem|nd|ng me of Ioseph 8euys' 1974 pro[ect, "I ||ke Amer|ca and Amer|ca
||kes me," where 8euys sequestered h|mse|f for a week |n the Un|ted States w|th a ||ve
coyote, an an|ma| that symbo||zed someth|ng |ndeterm|nate about the Western Un|ted
States and the |oss of Amer|caness. I was cur|ous whether 8euys' pro[ect ever came to m|nd
wh||e you were work|ng on GI 8unny, whether you th|nk that your aesthet|cs of d|a|og|sm
had any re|at|on to 8euys' not|on of soc|a| scu|pture, or whether you |n fact fee| your work
str|kes out |n an ent|re|y d|fferent d|rect|on.

My work ls compleLely unrelaLed. 1o undersLand Lhe modulaLlon of soclal space as arL one
has Lo look aL llavlo de Carvalho ln Lhe 30s and 30s, for dlaloglcal aesLheLlcs one has Lo look
aL Lygla Clark ln Lhe 1960s, noL 8euys. l have no lnLeresL ln delluslonal shamanlsLlc fanLasles
and posL-war Cermanlc romanLlc ldeallsm. new research and scholarshlp wlll conLrlbuLe Lo an
expanslon of Lhe cannon. l'm very lnLeresLed ln oLher arLlsLs who worked ln Lhe soclal realm
before 8euys, for example, llavlo de Carvalho, a 8razlllan arLlsL who began worklng ln Lhe
1930s. Carvalho ls perhaps besL known for a serles of drawlngs of hls moLher dylng, buL hls

key conLrlbuLlon ls colnlng Lhe caLegory of experlence" as arL and creaLlng several works LhaL
were Lhemselves experlences LhaL lnLervened ln Lhe soclal fabrlc. Pe was lnLeresLed ln
brlnglng Lo arL meLhods, knowledge, approaches from oLher dlsclpllnes buL Lhen compleLely
Lurnlng Lhem upslde down. Pe was lnLeresLed ln psychology, soclology, anLhropology - ln a
way, acLually, LhaL ls somewhaL analogous Lo my lnLeresL ln phllosophy, geneLlc englneerlng
and roboLlcs. !usL as lL would be a polnLless formallsL exerclse Lo compare Lwo palnLlngs wlLh
red hues slmply because Lhey're recLangular and of relaLed chromaLlclLy, Lwo compleLely
dlfferenL works LhaL lnvolve humans and non-human anlmals cannoL be compared on Lhe
grounds of an apparenL and superflclal formal analogy. 8euys performed wlLh a dead hare
and carrled a rabblL's fooL or LufL of rabblL fur wlLh hlm. l'm noL lnLeresLed ln dead anlmals or
body parLs of dead anlmals. ln my work l seek Lo creaLe new llfe or explore lnLersub[ecLlve
experlences. 1o make lL clear: my work was noL proposed slmply as a one-week cohablLaLlon.
1hls one week was lnLended as a way of enabllng Lhe lrench publlc Lo have Lhe experlence of
sharlng soclal space wlLh a Lransgenlc mammal. So lL was noL abouL me and an anlmal as an
allegory, buL lL was abouL all of us belng LogeLher ln a very real slLuaLlon LhaL was frlghLenlng
or sLlmulaLlng for Lhe publlc. MosL lmporLanLly, Lhe proposal was LhaL lmmedlaLely afLer Lhls
one week, Alba would come home Lo llve wlLh my famlly. SoclallzaLlon and ongolng personal
relaLlonshlp cannoL be compared wlLh a sLaged, one-week performance. Whlle 8euys creaLed
works LhaL were meanL prlmarlly as symbollc archeLypes, my works employ Lhe very Lools
LhaL glve rlse Lo Lhe soclal LransformaLlons l wlsh Lo quesLlon. Pence, my meLhod ls Lo engage
wlLh and Lo lnLervene dlrecLly ln Lhe dlscurslve and maLerlal manlfesLaLlons of soclal reallLles.

What happens next? What spec|f|c steps w||| you be tak|ng |n your attempt to "||berate"
A|ba? I know you're p|ann|ng to go to Irance |n December 2000 - w||| you be a||owed to see
her?

ln a recenL lnLervlew LhaL ln8A's head of research gave Lo a lrench magazlne, he dldn'L say
LhaL Lhe dlrecLor had declded noL Lo release Alba, he sald Lhe dlrecLor had declded noL Lo
release her yeL." 1hls yeL" really made me very happy, and broughL some peace Lo my
hearL, because lL slgnals Lhe posslblllLy of conLlnulng dlalogue. l'm noL glvlng up, Lhough l am
also noL pursulng Lhls lssue ln a negaLlve and aggresslve manner. Pe can'L release her on hls
own. When l go Lo lrance ln uecember, l don'L belleve l can see her buL l'm golng Lo Lry. My
goal ls noL Lo creaLe a dlsLurbance. l wanL people Lo undersLand my moLlvaLlon, LhaL l'm
slncere, LhaL l very much wanL Alba here. We're eagerly awalLlng her.

ou want A|ba at home because you want to show that the transgen|c can be brought |nto
the home. In your exp|anat|on of the concept of transgen|c art, you suggest that "transgen|c
art can be taken home by the pub||c and grown |n the backyard". What do you th|nk of
Nata||e Ierm|[enko's 8|otech nobby|st pro[ects (www.|rat|ona|.org]b|otech), |n wh|ch the
pub||c can buy k|ts to, for examp|e, convert the|r own sk|n w|th the GI Cctopus gene?
Does your |dea of "home-grown" transgen|cs d|ffer from Ierem|[enko's?

!usL as soon as we had compuLers, we had compuLer hackers. l suppose bloLech arLlsLs could
be called hackers of Lhe fuLure, buL of course soon oLhers wlll begln Lo hack blology Loo.
Lugene 1hacker Lalks of open source unA". !usL as boLh arLlsLs and hobbylsLs manlpulaLe
dlglLal lmages, bloLech hacklng wlll Lrlckle down Lo socleLy aL large. 8uL lL seems LhaL
glorlflcaLlon of hobby bloLech" has more Lo do wlLh Lhe novelLy of bloLech, l'm lnLeresLed
lnsLead ln Lhe lnLersecLlon of arL, Lechnology and culLure. l do llke !erml[enko's Cne 1ree

pro[ecL (www.o-r-g.com/CnL18LL/), ln whlch she has vlsually demonsLraLed Lhe sLrlklng
dlfference beLween hundreds of dlfferenL clones of Lhe same Lree. 1hls pro[ecL, llke mosL of
Lhe bloLech arL LhaL l llke, ls lnLeresLlng because of Lhe sLaLemenL lL makes, noL [usL because of
lLs use of bloLechnology.

Speak|ng of the fet|sh|zat|on of b|otech |n art, as the "arad|se Now" exh|b|t drew to a
c|ose, severa| of the part|c|pat|ng art|sts, as we|| as severa| academ|cs |nterested |n cu|tura|
representat|on of the b|otech |ndustry, cr|t|c|zed the exh|b|t for |ts comp||c|ty w|th the
b|otech |ndustry. Spec|f|ca||y, po||t|ca| sc|ent|st Iack|e Stevens argued that 1he Ioy of G|v|ng
Someth|ng, the nonprof|t organ|zat|on that sponsored the exh|b|t, had connect|ons to
b|otech |nterests. She c|a|med that "art about b|otechno|ogy, espec|a||y w|th a cr|t|ca| edge,
serves to reassure v|ewers that ser|ous concerns are be|ng addressed. Lven more
|mportant|y, b|otech-themed art |mp||c|t|y conveys the sense that gene man|pu|at|on |s a
"fact on the ground," someth|ng that ser|ous art|sts are cons|der|ng because |t |s here to
stay." What do you th|nk of the suggest|on that artwork wh|ch |s cr|t|ca| of the b|otech
|ndustry may on|y serve to p|acate the pub||c? And what do you make of the suggest|on
that the changes to be wrought by the b|otech |ndustry m|ght exaggerate and]or be
natura||zed by art wh|ch |mag|nes what these changes m|ght be?

Cne Lhlng LhaL we have Lo be clear abouL ls LhaL lf karl Marx were allve Loday, he would be
wrlLlng 1he CommunlsL ManlfesLo ln Lhe laLesL verslon of MlcrosofL Word, sendlng lL Lhrough
MCl's neLwork, and posLlng lL on Lhe neLLlme llsL, or perhaps sendlng lL vla ACL's lnsLanL
Messanger. So would lL be less valld because he wroLe lL ln a Lool developed by Lhe harblnger
of global caplLallsm? 1he Lools are here. eople drlve cars creaLed by lord: does Lhls mean
LhaL Lhey have Lo embrace hls nazl sympaLhles?

So you're say|ng that we're not rendered comp||c|t by the too|s we use.

l Lhlnk LhaL we have Lo be very careful, as Lhere ls a dlfference beLween uslng Lhe Lools of
bloLech and sharlng Lhe corporaLe bloLechnology worldvlew. Some people have been Loo
qulck Lo crlLlclze bloLech arL. erhaps Lhere are some arLlsLs who do noL reallze exacLly whaL lL
ls LhaL Lhey are dolng, buL Lhls can'L be generallzed. 8loLechnology, as Lhe sLrucLurallsLs were
keen Lo polnL ouL, can be compared Lo a language. So, for example, LelevangellsL aL
8oberLson and rapper Snoop uoggy uog share a language - Lngllsh - buL do Lhey have Lhe
same world-vlew? Llke any oLher Lechnology, bloLechnology operaLes Lhrough Lhe maLerlal
semloLlcs LhaL uonna Parraway wrlLes abouL so eloquenLly. 1here ls a process of slgn
operaLlon LhaL ls noL verbal or vlsual, LhaL ls very much abouL changlng Lhlngs ln Lhe world. So
when you approprlaLe Lhese Lools, buL lnLer[ecL oLher elemenLs, oLher world vlews, and
reconLexLuallze Lhem - as ln Cenesls -Lhls ls ln no way lllusLraLlng Lhe world of bloLech, buL
raLher maLchlng Lhe complexlLy of Lhe lssue wlLh an equally complex relaLlonshlp of aparenLly
unrelaLed elemenLs. SomeLlmes, of course, an arLlsL mlghL run Lhe rlsk of overslmpllfylng Lhls
complexlLy, or Lhe arL crlLlc mlghL fall Lo reallze Lhe complexlLy: Lhen Lhere ls a problem
because lL lmpoverlshes a greaL opporLunlLy for dlalogue.

Speak|ng of comp|ex|ty, your |atest p|ece, 1he L|ghth Day perhaps your most comp|ex
work to date w||| be shown at Ar|zona State from Cct-Dec 2001. ou've created a sort of
transgen|c re-env|s|on|ng of the b|osphere pro[ect, a se|f-conta|ned eco|og|ca| system,
encased |n an acry||c dome, wh|ch |nc|udes both transgen|c an|ma|s (GI8 amoeba, f|sh and

m|ce) amd p|ants and a "b|orobot" whose behav|or |s determ|ned by the d|v|s|on of amoeba
w|th|n |ts manufactured bra|n stem. now do you see th|s pro[ect extend|ng your work |n
GI 8unny and Genes|s? Cne th|ng that |nterest me part|cu|ar|y |s that the an|ma|s |n th|s
p|ece are moved away from the rea|m of the domest|c and fam|||ar, |so|ated |n the sort of
hermet|ca||y sea|ed env|ronment that the d|rector of INkA has |mp||ed wou|d be the
appropr|ate env|ronment for A|ba. ou're once aga|n confront|ng your aud|ence w|th the
poss|b|||ty of a wor|d saturated w|th transgen|c creatures, but what are the d|fferent
|mp||cat|ons of you approach here?

"1he LlghLh uay" ls parL of my "CreaLlon 1rllogy" buL lL ls very dlfferenL from "Cenesls" and
"Cl 8unny". "Cenesls" focused on debunklng Lhe noLlon of supremacy of Lhe unA molecule
by creaLlng an "arLlsL's gene", a synLheLlc gene, and expresslng lL ln bacLerla. "Cenesls"
demonsLraLed Lhe plasLlclLy of Lhe gene, l.e., how one can lnflecL lL wlLh meanlng. lL also
broughL Lo an lnLeracLlve realm Lhe human and Lhe bacLerla neLworks. WlLh "Cl 8unny", one
of Lhe key lssues was noL [usL domesLlclLy, buL Lhe facL LhaL llvlng and growlng ln Lhe domesLlc
conLexL, Lhe rabblL would become parL of Lhe famlly and socleLy Lhrough dally lnLeracLlon,
affecLlon, conLacL, communlcaLlon. Mlce do noL have a hlsLory of domesLlclLy (qulLe Lo Lhe
conLrary) and lL ls noL posslble Lo esLabllsh Lhls level of susLalned lnLersub[ecLlve and lnLlmaLe
lnLeracLlon ln a domesLlc seLLlng wlLh flsh. Cne of my maln goals wlLh "1he LlghLh uay" ls Lo
draw aLLenLlon Lo Lhe facL LhaL a Lransgenlc ecology ls already ln place (prlmarlly ln Lhe uSA,
slnce many crops ln Lhe uSA (corn and soy, for example) are Lransgenlc, buL also lncreaslngly
ln oLher parLs of Lhe world). We do noL grasp Lhe complexlLy of Lhls culLural LransformaLlon
when we open our refrlgeraLor Lo look for corn, or when we go Lo a resLauranL and pour soy
souce over Lhe meal. "1he LlghLh uay" creaLes a dramaLlc seLLlng LhaL brlngs LogeLher belngs
orlglnally developed ln lsolaLlon ln laboraLorles, now selecLed and bred speclflcally for "1he
LlghLh uay". SelecLlve breedlng and muLaLlon are Lwo key evoluLlonary forces, so "1he LlghLh
uay" llLerally Louches on Lhe quesLlon of Lransgenlc evoluLlon. (lL ls also lmporLanL Lo polnL
ouL LhaL Lhe mlce and flsh are ln excellenL healLh and have all of Lhelr needs Laken care of on
a dally basls.) My goal ls Lo produce an lmage LhaL synLheslzes Lhls passage lnLo a new klnd of
envlronmenL, one ln whlch romanLlc noLlons of whaL ls "naLural" have Lo be quesLloned and
Lhe human role ln Lhe evoluLlonary hlsLory of oLher specles (and vlce versa) has Lo be
acknowledged, whlle aL Lhe same Llme respecLfully and humbly marvelllng aL Lhls amazlng
phenomenon we call "llfe".