Changes to WingMakers Interview Two LEGEND: Words deleted / [Words inserted]

Se ond Interview o! Dr" #nderson [Interview $] By Anne What follows is a session I recorded of Dr. Anderson [Neruda] on December 28, !!". #e $a%e &ermission for me to record his answers to my 'uestions. (his is the transcri&t of that session. (his was one of fi%e times I was able to ta&e)record our con%ersations. I ha%e &reser%ed these transcri&ts &recisely as they occurred. No editin$ was &erformed, and I*%e tried my best to include the e+act words, &hrasin$, and $rammar used by Dr. Anderson [Neruda]. ,It*s recommended that you read the December 2", !!" inter%iew before readin$ this one.#nne: .Before we be$in toni$ht*s session, I wanted to tell you that I*%e listened to last ni$ht*s ta&e and ha%e used it to formulate some new 'uestions. I noticed that I was all o%er the &lace with re$ard to my 'uestions, and toni$ht I*m $oin$ to try and stay more focused. /o I*m 0ust warnin$ you that if I $et off trac1 a$ain, remind me to stay on course. 21ay3. Dr" #nderson: .I*ll certainly do my best... althou$h I*m not sure what your course is.. #nne: .Well, I $uess I*d li1e to stay more centered on the Win$4a1ers and [the arftifacts of ] their time ca&sule.. Dr" #nderson: .(hat*s fine with me.. [But let me ma1e one clarification first.] #nne: .21ay, last ni$ht you mentioned that the Win$4a1ers had a&&ointed you to be their liaison. 5ou also said that they wanted you to be their liaison because 6ifteen was a &awn of the 7orteum. 7an you elaborate on that3. Dr" #nderson: .I was a&&arently selected to be their s&o1es&erson in this time, and not only hel& translate their te+t, &aintin$s, and symbol &ictures, but also hel& in brin$in$ these thin$s to the &ublic*s attention. In other words, I don*t thin1 the Win$4a1ers desired the contents of their time ca&sules to be held in a secret re&ository dee& within the bowels of the 8abyrinth 9rou&. .As for 6ifteen, I thin1 the Win$4a1ers felt he was too in%ol%ed with the 7orteum to ob0ecti%ely assess the Win$4a1ers* time ca&sule and determine how to brin$ it to the &ublic*s attention. Bear in mind, 6ifteen has a sin$le)minded ambition to successfully de&loy B/( ,an acronym that stands for Blan1 /late (echnolo$y-. (o the e+tent the Win$4a1ers* time ca&sule accelerated or facilitated this de%elo&ment, 6ifteen would be e+tremely interested in the Win$4a1ers. (o the 1

e+tent they did not, it would li1ely be his ob0ecti%e to seal the &ro0ect and mo%e it to the bac1 burner of the 8abyrinth 9rou&*s research a$enda. .7ulture and &hiloso&hy were im&ortant to 6ifteen, but only to the e+tent of &ersonal enhancement . . . they didn*t ha%e a &lace in the 8abyrinth 9rou&*s research a$enda unless it somehow had direct bearin$ on de%elo&in$ interacti%e time tra%el.. #nne: .But didn*t you say that in the &rocess of decodin$ and translatin$ their lan$ua$e that your intelli$ence was effected in a way that would ma1e it more ada&ti%e to the stresses of time tra%el3. Dr" #nderson: .I don*t thin1 it was a 'uestion of intelli$ence. I thin1 it was more of a multidimensional awareness or ability to sense the hi$her circuits of consciousness, which I su&&ose, is a form of intelli$ence. It seemed to me that the Win$4a1ers were &articularly concerned with de%elo&in$ a holistic sensory &erce&tion, and that the reason they encoded their lan$ua$e was to de%elo& these hi$her senses. A$ain, I asserted that the ability to interacti%ely time tra%el re'uires a " sensory, multidimensional &ers&ecti%e. It can*t be done in the :) dimensional ; sensory conte+t of normal human awareness.. #nne: .But still . . . if you had these enhancements to your consciousness or intelli$ence and you thou$ht they were inte$ral to the de&loyment of B/(, why wouldn*t 6ifteen listen to you3. Dr" #nderson: .#e did listen . . . it*s 0ust that he didn*t a$ree with my theory. (he moment I mentioned that I had an interaction with the Win$4a1ers, he seemed to discount my assertions.. #nne: .What was it about your interactions that seemed to &ersuade him that you were mis$uided or not trustworthy3. Dr" #nderson: .I was the first one to read their lan$ua$e and understand it. 2nce we unloc1ed the o&tical disc, we &rinted out o%er 8, << &a$es of symbol &ictures li1e the ones contained in their art wor1, e+ce&t much more %aried, and, in some instances, much more com&le+. (here were 2: cha&ters of te+t or symbol &ictures )) each consistin$ of about :;< &a$es. I decoded the first se$ment or cha&ter of this te+t usin$ a %ersion of the /umerian translation inde+ I had set)u& for the access code to the o&tical disc. .#owe%er, as I be$an to decode and translate the te+t I be$an to $ain an understandin$ into the Win$4a1ers* culture. (hey had &hiloso&hical discourses that were fascinatin$ to read . . . . [ Note: The !ollowing se tion was inserted ] [ Dr. Neruda= .(hat*s fine with me. But let me ma1e one clarification first. .(he Ancient Arrow site was labeled initially as an >+traterrestrial (ime 7a&sule, or >(7, howe%er, it is not actually, in my o&inion, a time ca&sule.. /arah= .9ood, let*s start ri$ht there. What e+actly is it, in your o&inion3. 2

Dr. Neruda= .(he site is &art of a lar$er structure that*s interconnected throu$h some means I don*t understand. We 1now there*re se%en sites that ha%e been constructed on earth )) &resumably in the ninth century. We 1now that these sites ha%e some defensi%e &ur&ose, and we 1now that the sites &lanners re&resent themsel%es are culture bearers, and are most li1ely re&resentati%es from the 7entral ?ace.. /arah= .I hear a lot about *defensi%e wea&on*, but how can these wall &aintin$s or the music artifacts be considered &art of a defensi%e wea&on3. Dr. Neruda= .We 1now from our ?@ sessions, that the Win$4a1ers desi$ned these sites to be more than a defensi%e wea&on, otherwise, as you &oint out, the cultural artifacts wouldn*t ma1e any sense. #owe%er, it also doesn*t ma1e sense that they*d be com&letely unrelated to the ob0ecti%es of a defensi%e wea&on. I*d ma1e the hy&othesis that they*re DNA tri$$ers.. /arah= .5ou mean they acti%ate somethin$ within our DNA))as you were describin$ last ni$ht3. Dr. Neruda= .7orrect.. /arah= .And how does this relate to a defensi%e wea&on3. Dr. Neruda= .It was our hy&othesis that the cultural artifacts, if studied or e+amined, would somehow acti%ate &arts of our DNA. 6or what &ur&ose we weren*t certain, but I intuit that it has somethin$ to do with stimulatin$ our fluid intelli$ence and enablin$ sensory in&uts that ha%e been dormant within our central ner%ous system.. /arah= .And do you ha%e a hy&othesis as to why3. Dr. Neruda= .Aresumably the enhancements to the central ner%ous system ma1es the defensi%e wea&on more effecti%e.. /arah= .It*s so damn easy to $et side)trac1ed when tal1in$ with you, but I*m $oin$ to resist the tem&tation to mo%e into a line of neurolo$ical discourse, not that I 1now anythin$ about it anyway. .(ell me more about your role with the Win$4a1ers* time ca&sule))or whate%er you want to call it.. Dr. Neruda= .I thin1 for accuracy and consistency, we can refer to it as the Ancient Arrow site. As I said before, I*m confident that it*s not a time ca&sule. .(o your 'uestion, thou$h, I was wor1in$ with a com&uter we call B>4I, hel&in$ to translate the data contained on the o&tical disc found in the twenty)third chamber of the site. It contained te+t, symbol &ictures, mathematical e'uations, and what turned out to be music files. .2nce the site was located, my &rimary focus was to decode the o&tical disc and ma1e the data therein sensible and, as much as &ossible, a&&licable to B/(..

/arah= .Did any of it a&&ly to B/(3. Dr. Neruda= .Not directly, at least nothin$ that I*%e read. (he te+t was of a more &hiloso&hical nature. I was the first one to read their lan$ua$e. 2nce we unloc1ed the o&tical disc, we &rinted out ei$ht thousand forty)fi%e &a$es of symbol &ictures li1e the ones contained in their art wor1, e+ce&t much more %aried, and, in some instances, much more com&le+. (here were 2: cha&ters of te+t or symbol &ictures )) each consistin$ of about :;< &a$es. .I read the first se$ment or cha&ter of this te+t and was amaCed to find that there were &assa$es of te+t )) in the introduction )) that were only readable to me. (his was additional confirmation that I had a role to &lay in $ettin$ this information into the &ublic domain.. /arah= .Are you sayin$ that the te+t you read disa&&eared after you read it or that you deleted it3. Dr. Neruda= .It disa&&eared. It deleted itself.. /arah= /o only the first eyes would see the messa$e3. Dr. Neruda= .7orrect.. /arah= ./o what did it say3. Dr. Neruda= .I can recite the e+act words if you li1e, but it would ta1e a few minutes.. /arah= .9i%e me a summary.. Dr. Neruda= .(he essence of this &assa$e was %alidatin$ what the A7I2 had already 1nown )) that the Animus were sendin$ &robes in 2< , and it was written in the form of a warnin$. It stated that the Win$4a1ers had installed a defensi%e wea&on on earth that would render the &lanet in%isible to the Animus &robes.. /arah= .In%isible3 #ow3. Dr. Neruda= .(hey didn*t e+&lain with any &recision. (hey wrote that hi$her fre'uencies were emanatin$ from the central uni%erse, and that these se%en sites com&rised a collecti%e technolo$y that somehow coordinated these fre'uencies or hi$her ener$ies to brin$ about a shift in the &lanet*s %ibratory structure, enablin$ life on the &lanet to sur%i%e the shift and remain undetected by the Animus.. /arah= .All life forms3. Dr. Neruda= .(echnically, the te+t didn*t s&ecify.. /arah= .And this was for your eyes only3.

Dr. Neruda= .5es, the B>4I o&erator did not find any e%idence of this section of the te+t. It com&letely disa&&eared.. /arah= .What else did it say3. Dr. Neruda= .It confirmed that we*re dealin$ with the 7entral ?ace, and that they want the cultural artifacts from the se%en sites to be shared with the &ublic. (hese elements were connected to the effecti%eness of the defensi%e wea&on.. /arah= .In what way3. Dr. Neruda= .In the sense that the materials acti%ate as&ects of our DNA that ma1e the shift easier, or &erha&s &ossible, I*m not certain because they were a bit %a$ue.. /arah= ./o, by readin$ the &hiloso&hy I*m su&&osed to be able to become in%isible3. Dr. Neruda= .I thin1 it*s more holistic than that. (hey left behind &oetry, music, &aintin$s, and e%en a $lossary. It seems to me that all of these elements )) in addition to the &hiloso&hy )) are connected. Also, I*m su$$estin$ that somethin$ fundamentally chan$es when these materials are absorbed, and &erha&s this chan$e, whate%er it is, resonates with the technolo$y from the se%en sites.. /arah= ./ounds far)fetched to me. Why do you belie%e this3. Dr. Neruda= .I*%e absorbed the materials and I*%e noticed chan$es.. /arah= ./uch as3. Dr. Neruda= .I defected from the A7I2. (o me, that*s the bi$$est chan$e ima$inable.. /arah= .5ou*re not im&lyin$ that the materials you*%e read induced you to defect are you3. Dr. Neruda= .It was a combination of many thin$s, but it certainly had a si$nificant im&act on my decision. Did you read any of the materials I left last ni$ht3. ] #nne: .I read the ones you left for me, [the first section and a little of the $lossary.] I didn*t understand most of what they said [it]. (hey seemed [It was] too abstract. (hey [It] did ha%e an effect on me thou$h . . . [))] they [it] mana$ed to &ut me to slee& e%ery time I tried to read them.. Dr" #nderson: .I 1now they*re [it*s] a little intense, but you ha%e to admit, they*re [it*s] %ery interestin$ if for no other reason than they*re re&resentati%e of how humans [our distant ancestors] )) or at least some humans )) will belie%e ";< years from now [thin1 and belie%e]. (hey*re literally the only records we ha%e of our future belief systems. .But what I was $oin$ to say before, is that they not only had &hiloso&hy, they also had &oetry and musical notations. /o I be$an to theoriCe that each chamber had a set of ob0ects= a 5

&aintin$, &oem, &hiloso&hical discourse, musical com&osition, and a technolo$ical artifact that held a s&ecific messa$e or theme. And the time ca&sule was desi$ned to be understood by lin1in$ these themes to$ether 0ust as I had lin1ed the 2: master symbols from the &aintin$s to access the o&tical disc.. #nne: .And what do you thin1 was the messa$e they were tryin$ to con%ey3. Dr" #nderson: .I don*t 1now. We only finished decodin$ 2 entire chambers when I had left. And since lea%in$, I*%e mana$ed to decode most of the third chamber as well. #owe%er, the technolo$ical artifact that was found in each of the chambers remains a mystery. In most instances, they can*t e%en be &robed by our technolo$y to determine where or how to acti%ate them. #nne: .But [And] you ha%e a co&y of the 8 << [all of] &a$es of te+t3. Dr" #nderson: .5es.. #nne: .And can I see it3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, but it*s not somethin$ I carry around with me.. #nne: .I still don*t understand why all the com&licated encodin$ and decodin$ and /umerian translation inde+es. 6or 9od*s sa1e, these are humans aren*t they3 Why don*t they sim&ly s&ea1 >n$lish or at least some %ariant of it3 I mean ";< years a$o &eo&le &retty much s&o1e the same lan$ua$es that we do today. Why would they chan$e so dramatically in another ";< years3. [.(ell me a little bit about the translation &rocess since you were in%ol%ed in it3.] Dr" #nderson: .I can only s&eculate that if the &ur&ose of the time ca&sule were to somehow acti%ate hi$her circuits of learnin$ or intelli$ence, then &erha&s the time ca&sule would be &ur&osely encoded in order to force a decodin$. And in this &rocess of decodin$, the acti%ation is tri$$ered. If they did it in sim&le >n$lish or some other lan$ua$e of the day, we*d miss the acti%ation of our hi$her senses. (hat*s my hy&othesis.. #nne: .5ou said last ni$ht that only about "D of the te+t is translated thus far, and that*s after months of wor1in$ on it after disco%erin$ the translation inde+es. If you ha%e such &owerful com&utin$ technolo$y, why can*t the 8abyrinth 9rou& decode and translate the entire %olume of te+t in a matter of a 1eystro1e3. Dr" #nderson: .It*s more com&licated than that. (he Win$4a1ers* lan$ua$e is based on !8 different symbol &ictures instead of the 2E found in our own al&habet. (he com&uter)based translation inde+es were a&&lied to the entire te+t, but we found so many inconsistencies in the semantics that it became literally im&ossible to rely on the com&uter %ersions. (heir lan$ua$e is much more &recise than our own and therefore more sensiti%e to semantic accuracy. .Because of the semantic differentials it was necessary to cross)chec1 the translation manually. Which meant that about e%ery ;th word needed to be tested or %erified for its meanin$ in the conte+t of the sentence and &ara$ra&h structure it was &laced into. And the only way this could 6

be done effecti%ely is with myself and another collea$ue who was hel&in$ in the manual translation.. #nne: ./till it seems to ha%e ta1en you an awful lon$ time to com&lete 0ust "D of their te+t . . . . Dr" #nderson: .But for e%ery &a$e of te+t, we in%ested the e'ui%alent of about 2< hours of &ainsta1in$ cross)chec1in$ to ensure the accuracy of the translation. (he translation is the 1ey to the usefulness of the time ca&sule, and it doesn*t ma1e any sense to rush the translation and draw wron$ conclusions because of semantic or translation errors. .In our translation inde+es there are many dimensions where errors can be made and at each le%el, if they*re not cau$ht, they com&ound or am&lify the translation errors at the ne+t le%el. 6or e+am&le, there are inde+es written for each letter or symbol &icture, there is one for each combination of letters )) which for an al&habet of !8 characters )) you can ima$ine the %ariety of combinations. (here are also inde+es for sentence structure and one for semantic conte+t. 2n to& of these %ariables, there must be considerations $i%en to the linearity of the lan$ua$e or its se'uence. .6urthermore, as I stated earlier, the te+t consisted of more than mere &rose (here was also musical notations and &oetry. /o we re'uired, for each of the 2: se$ments of te+t, a translation that was ca&able of discernin$ all the nuance of the &rose and also the &oetry and music.. [ Note: The !ollowing se tion was inserted ] [ /arah= .(ell me a little bit about the translation &rocess since you were in%ol%ed in it3. Dr. Neruda= .(he translation is the 1ey to the usefulness of the o&tical disc, and usin$ a carefully se'uenced set of e+&eriments, conducted by B>4I, we were able to access the disc*s data files in fi%e days.. /arah= .#ow do you 1now that the translation is accurate3. Dr. Neruda= .Within the disc, once it was accessed, were translations inde+es that enabled their te+t to &rint out in &erfect >n$lish, or about si+ty other lan$ua$es. It too1 us a two days to fi$ure out how to access the disc, but once we did, we were able to access the 2F sections of te+t in the s&an of se%enteen hours.. (he most %e+in$ of the translations, and the one in which we ha%e the least confidence is the music.. ] #nne: .9ood, I*m $lad you brou$ht u& the music because I don*t understand that element of the time ca&sule.. Dr" #nderson: .#ow do you mean that3.

#nne: .Was the music already on the o&tical disc and you sim&ly ca&tured it from the disc, or was it basically &roduced by the 8abyrinth 9rou& based on the musical notations3. Dr" #nderson: .Actually, it was a bit of a combination of the two. (heir musical notations were %ery &recise and they left di$ital sam&les of each of their instruments )) e%en %ocals. /o we sim&ly translated their di$ital sam&les to a 4IDI standard and &roduced our own %ersion of their music. 2f all the thin$s that we*%e translated, the music was the easiest to &roduce, but also the one that we*re not sure as to its accuracy.. #nne: ./o were you in%ol%ed in the music translations as well3. Dr" #nderson: .5es. I hel&ed in the initial disco%ery of their musical notation and hel&ed with the translation inde+es. I wasn*t in%ol%ed in its &roduction &hase, thou$h I was %ery curious as to what it would sound li1e.. #nne: .7an I hear any of these com&ositions3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, of course. When I left, the A7I2 had successfully translated < [ten] of the 2: [twenty)three] music com&ositions. I ha%e these. And they*%e been con%erted to both 7D and cassette standards. I also ha%e com&lete files of the remainin$ : [thirteen] com&ositions in their raw, de)constructed form.. #nne: .#ow were they &roduced e+actly3. Dr" #nderson: .Do you mean that technically or artistically3. #nne: .I $uess both.. Dr" #nderson: .2n the technical end we needed to ste& their sam&les down to a resolution of :8F)bit in order to use them in our com&uter systems. When we first heard the sam&les of instrumentation, we were somewhat relie%ed to hear familiar sounds. (here were some that were different, but for the most &art, the di$ital sam&les that were encoded on the o&tical disc were the same as contem&orary musical instruments heard around the world. .2nce we had ca&tured their sam&les and or$aniCed them into octa%es, we too1 their com&ositional notations and essentially let the com&uter select the di$ital instrumentation based on their sam&les. >%entually this all had to be ste&&ed down to a 2F)bit commercial 7D masterin$ system, which was them &ressed on a 7D and recorded onto a cassette ta&e. .As for the artistic &roduction, there really wasn*t much that we did. (he com&uters did all the inter&retati%e wor1 and essentially &erformed the &roduction for that matter. We had some of our staff &erform o%erdubs on %arious %ersions to e+&eriment with the com&ositions. (he music was %ery &o&ular, &articularly when you listened to it at a sam&lin$ resolution of :8F)bit.. #nne: .Didn*t anyone wonder why the time ca&sule included a musical construction 1it instead of 0ust ha%in$ a recordin$ of the music . . . [3] I mean [,] why ha%e us brin$ an artistic inter&retation to their music3. 8

Dr" #nderson: .>%erythin$ was wondered about in the Ancient Arrow &ro0ect. >%erythin$. .We didn*t 1now why they did it the way they did it, but a$ain our hy&othesis was that the Win$4a1ers didn*t ha%e a way to brin$ their music into our world because we lac1ed the technolo$y to listen to it. /o they disassembled their music into )) as you &ut it )) a construction 1it, which enabled us to reconstruct the music so it could be listened to on our technolo$y. It*s the most lo$ical reason. .(here were se%eral of us who were able to e+&erience chambers one and two as a com&letely inte$rated form of e+&ression and it was a %ery &owerful e+&erience . . . [))] to say the least. When you hear the music in :8F)bit resolution with the ori$inal &aintin$s, standin$ inside the actual chamber in which they were &laced, it is a %ery mo%in$ and s&iritual e+&erience. Gnli1e any I*%e e%er had.. #nne: .In what way3. Dr" #nderson: .Hust that the sense of bein$ &ulled out of your body and into the &ortal of the &aintin$ is irresistible. (here is a %ery stron$ sense of mo%ement into and beyond these &aintin$s, and the music and &aintin$s are only two of the art forms, the third, the &oetry is also &art of the e+&erience.. #nne: ./o tell me about the &oetry.. Dr" #nderson: .(he &oems are e+&ressi%e of a wide ran$e of sub0ects. (o most of us at the A7I2, they could ha%e been written by any contem&orary &oet. (here was really nothin$ that caused them to stand out as re&resentin$ a culture ";< years in our future [billions of years older than our own]. 4any of the same themes about s&irituality, lo%e, relationshi&s, and death were e%ident in their &oems as well. 4ost of the &oetry has been translated because there isn*t much te+t in%ol%ed . . . at least com&ared to their &hiloso&hical and scientific &a&ers. (here*re actually two &oems for each chamber &aintin$, so there*s a total of FE &oems. #nne: .(hat*s interestin$. >%erythin$ else )) the &aintin$s, music, artifacts, &hiloso&hy )) is &laced one)&er)chamber. Why do you su&&ose they*%e &laced two &oems in each chamber instead of one3. Dr" #nderson: .In my o&inion it was to &ro%ide a broader &ers&ecti%e into the &articular theme re&resented by a s&ecific chamber. (he &oetry a&&ears to be desi$ned in such a way to &ro%ide both a &ersonal and uni%ersal &ers&ecti%e in each of the chambers . . . [))] but a$ain, it*s 0ust a wor1in$ hy&othesis at this time.. #nne: .I assume from the e+am&les you left me, that the &oetry is also a bit less abstract when com&ared to their &hiloso&hy and &aintin$s. #a%e you considered how the &oetry is related to the &aintin$s3. Dr" #nderson: .5es. And I belie%e the &oetry and the &aintin$s ha%e the stron$est connection of all the ob0ects in each of the chambers. I thin1 the &aintin$s illustrate )) in some subtle way )) the themes re&resented in the &oetry. In some instances, when the &aintin$ re&resents an 9

assembla$e of abstract ob0ects, the &oetry is also more abstract. When the &aintin$ is more illustrati%e, the &oetry seems more li1e &rose.. #nne: Are you sayin$ then that the &oetry carries the central meanin$ of each chamber3. Dr" #nderson: .I*m not sure, but it does seem that the &oetry is somehow im&lied symbolically in the chamber &aintin$ that it*s associated with. (he &roblem is that the &oetry is so hi$hly inter&reti%e that it*s im&ossible to 1now &recisely what its theme is intended to be. Also, and I should ha%e mentioned this before, but the $rammar and synta+ of their lan$ua$e is %ery different from ours in that they ha%e no end to their lan$ua$e &unctuated with &eriods. .In other words, if we made a literal translation, there would be no sentence structure . . . [))] more li1e a lo$ic syntactical a&&roach . . . [))] which sim&ly means an abstracted lan$ua$e flow which would be, for most &eo&le, %ery difficult to understand. When I was doin$ the translations of the &oetry, I &laced it in a sentence structure that fra$mented its meanin$ so that it could be better understood. Aerha&s in the &rocess I unintentionally chan$ed the meanin$, but it was either that or the &oetry would be too abstracted to understand.. #nne: .Is there a connection between the &oetry and the &hiloso&hy of each chamber3. Dr" #nderson: .4y collea$ue and I felt that all of the ob0ects within a s&ecific chamber were connected . . . [))] &robably in ways we couldn*t fathom. We were constantly worried that our translation inde+es were somehow inaccurate, and that this was limitin$ our ability to see the lin1a$es between the %arious ob0ects. And of course the most &uCClin$ connection was the technolo$y artifacts because we had no way to &robe or reach any conclusions about their &ur&ose or function.. #nne: .8et*s tal1 a little bit about the artifacts found in each chamber. (he only one that I*%e really heard about was the one found in the 2:rd [twenty)third] chamber, the o&tical disc. I 1now you*%e shown me some &hotos of the others, but could you describe them better with res&ect to how you analyCed them and what, if any, ideas you ha%e as to their connection to the o%erall time ca&sule3. Dr" #nderson: .(he o&tical disc is the only artifact of the 2: [twenty)third] we found, that the AI72 had successfully accessed, at least that I*m aware of. (he other artifacts were all ta1en to the 8abyrinth 9rou&*s research laboratory in @ir$inia immediately after they were disco%ered. (hese were ne%er ac1nowled$ed to anyone below a 2+ [security le%el twel%e] clearance. (here were rumors within the broader A7I2 that there were technolo$ies within the time ca&sule [Ancient Arrow site], but these ne%er $ained any serious consideration, and certainly not by the N/A. .(he technolo$y artifacts were of the $reatest curiosity to 6ifteen because they re&resented the &ossible solutions to B/(. And, as I mentioned earlier, 6ifteen and most of the 8abyrinths 9rou& for that matter, felt that the Win$4a1ers may re&resent the future of the 8abyrinth 9rou& [not allow the 8abyrinth 9rou& to de&loy B/(] tryin$ to &ass its interacti%e time tra%el technolo$y to us wor1in$ in the &resent. #ence, 6ifteen lo$ically considered these &articular artifacts could

10

re&resent a &iece of the &uCCle that had alluded him thus far. [the Win$4a1ers as &ossible foes, instead of allies.]. #nne: .But what I*%e seen don*t [doesn*t] loo1 %ery ad%anced or based in hi$h technolo$y. (hey could &ass for sim&le crystals or roc1s . . . [))] or somethin$ or$anic. Why was the 8abyrinth 9rou& so con%inced they held the 1eys to time tra%el [intri$ued by them]3. Dr" #nderson: .(he crystalline structures that were found, in most cases, did loo1 'uite ordinary in the sense that when they were e+amined by the eye, they a&&eared to be crystals, but when you loo1ed at them throu$h %arious molecular and atomic analyses, it was ob%ious that they were manmade ob0ects. In other words, they were synthetic crystalline structures, and we held the hy&othesis that they were encoded with information much li1e the o&tical disc or the &aintin$s. We also held the hy&othesis that they were &otentially connected to the o&tical disc since it was the last of the artifacts and seemed the e'ui%alent of a 1eystone or master 1ey.. #nne: .Did any of the te+t translated from the o&tical disc refer to the other artifacts3. Dr" #nderson: .No, to our cha$rin [disa&&ointment], there were no references . . . at least so far.. #nne: .5ou ne%er really answered [didn*t answer] my 'uestion about whether you felt there was a connection between the technolo$y artifacts and the s&ecific cultural artifacts related to each chamber.. Dr" #nderson: ./orry, I $uess it*s my turn to $et side)trac1ed toni$ht. Anyway, yes, there were connections . . . [))] we were certain of this, but at the same time, because we couldn*t $et inside the artifacts and &robe them, we couldn*t &ro%e our theory. 7onse'uently, we &laced all of our time and ener$y on the o&tical disc because is seemed to be the most im&ortant of the artifacts as well as the one we had the best chance of accessin$ throu$h our technolo$y.. #nne: .5et, when you say that, didn*t you also tell me earlier that it too1 o%er a year to fi$ure out how to access the o&tical disc3. .Why3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, that*s true. But you must bear in mind that the technolo$y artifacts were e+tremely alien to our technolo$ies. 2ther than the o&tical disc, the other technolo$ies were a combination of synthetic materials based on or$anic structures, and in some instances actually &ossessed human DNA within their structures. (hese were . . . [))]. #nne: .5ou*re sayin$ that the technolo$ies were in &art human3. Dr" #nderson: .5es... in a way. But what I was $oin$ to say, is that these artifacts seemed to ha%e molecular)based com&uter systems that acti%ated by a s&ecific human touch. And we weren*t certain whether it was literally a s&ecific human, or a s&ecific ty&e of human, or &erha&s any human in a s&ecific state of emotion or mind. We had ; [one hundred and fifteen] &ossible e+&eriments de%elo&ed for testin$ and all failed. /o e%entually, we $a%e u& on

11

accessin$ the or$anically based artifacts and concentrated our ener$ies and technolo$ies on accessin$ the o&tical disc.. #nne: .But this is real odd . . . [))] why would human DNA be inside a technolo$y . . . [))] and this tal1 about synthetic crystals . . . [))] it lea%es me cold.. Dr" #nderson: .We had some similar mis$i%in$s until we were able to translate some of the te+t within the o&tical disc. (he &hiloso&hical &a&ers from chambers one and two con%inced us that the Win$4a1ers could indeed be authentic and we had no other reason to disbelie%e their story. (hat*s not to say that we sus&ended all of our disbelief or caution, but the &hiloso&hy was a brea1throu$h to our understandin$ of their &ercei%ed mission with contem&orary human1ind.. #nne: .I don*t 1now . . . [))] I read the first two &hiloso&hy &a&ers you left for me, and I could belie%e that they*re from an alien race. I could also belie%e that they*re from a dece&ti%e race that uses &hiloso&hy and all this cultural stuff to lull us into belie%in$ they*re bene%olent when in fact they*re not at all. I mean isn*t that &art of the &ro&hecy you s&o1e about last ni$ht3. Dr" #nderson: .Well, I see you remain the e%er)s1e&tical 0ournalist. I*m actually $lad to see that reaction. .Anne [/arah], all I can tell you is that when you ta1e into account all of the cultural artifacts found within the Ancient Arrow site, and you immerse yourself in their content and &hiloso&hy, it*s hard to belie%e they ori$inate from e%il intent.. #nne: .Gnless that*s e+actly what they wanted you to belie%e.. Dr" #nderson: .Aerha&s. It*s hard to debate such a thin$. I thin1 at some &oint it*s an indi%idual decision. (he 8abyrinth 9rou& )) and I*m includin$ the 7orteum when I say that )) was in a$reement that it was an authentic disclosure [from the 7entral ?ace,] and felt confident that we were not dealin$ with dece&tion. But we ne%er close the door to that &ossibility. 2ur security and o&erations directors &ut contin$ency &lans in &lace in the e%ent e%idence was accumulated that increased the &robability of fraud or dece&tion.. #nne: .2ne of thin$s that seemed odd to me, ha%in$ loo1ed at the &hoto$ra&hs of the chamber &aintin$s, was how similar they all were. (hey were clearly done by the same artist . . . or I su&&ose a $rou& of artists. But when I thin1 of a time ca&sule, I would thin1 you would include a %ariety of art from a di%erse assortment of artists that re&resent a %ariety of &ers&ecti%es and so forth. And that isn*t the case here. Why do you su&&ose3. Dr" #nderson: .I don*t thin1 their moti%e was to inform us about their artists or the di%ersity of their artistic culture. I thin1 they intend that the art function initially as a form of communication, and subse'uently as a form of time tra%el or mo%in$ out of the body consciousness. (he continuity of the 2: &aintin$s seen as a whole seem to be in%itin$ the consciousness of the obser%er to 'uite literally ste& into the world of the Win$4a1ers. As thou$h they were &ortals, and I*%e e+&erienced this myself.

12

.(he &aintin$s are incredibly brilliant in their colors. 5ou really can*t ima$ine how much im&act they ha%e when you see them in &erson, &articularly after their cleanin$ and restoration was com&leted. But e%en when they were first disco%ered without any touch)u&, it was eerie how luminous they were and %ibrant in their colors after , ;< years. (here were many times when those of us who were in%ol%ed in restoration and catalo$in$ of the artifacts, would sit in the chambers and stare at these &aintin$s. 2n se%eral occasions I did this for hours 0ust lettin$ my eyes wander throu$h the &aintin$, and ima$inin$ the mind of the artist and what they were tryin$ to communicate. It was a %ery, %ery &owerful e+&erience . . . unli1e anythin$ I had e%ery e+&erienced before.. #nne: .I thin1 they*d scare me a little bit.. Dr" #nderson: I*m only lau$hin$ because I had such an e+&erience. 2ne ni$ht after a lon$ day of wor1in$ in the artifact chambers, I was left as the last one inside the site. I had been so absorbed in what I was doin$ I scarcely remembered bein$ told to acti%ate the security system on my way out. About a half)hour went by, and I finally realiCed I was alone inside the time ca&sule . . . [))] the silence was incredible. Any rate, I was wal1in$ down the corridor that connected all of the 2: chambers, and &assed each chamber and I be$an to feel a &resence that was o%erwhelmin$. >%ery time I would come u&on one of the chambers I e+&ected somethin$ from the &aintin$ to 0um& out at me. (hey literally seemed ali%e. .2ur li$htin$ was a %ery hi$h 'uality &ortable halo$en system and e%ery chamber was outfitted &recisely the same. When I $ot to the bottom of the corridor )) what we called the s&iral staircase )) and loo1ed into chamber two, I clearly saw motion and nearly 0um&ed out of my s1in. Not necessarily out of fear, but out of e+citement I su&&ose, thou$h there was fear as well. But this motion was sim&ly a blurred ima$e of somethin$ ste&&in$ out of the &aintin$ and then disa&&earin$ into thin air . . . [))] I couldn*t really . . . [))]. #nne: .What was it3 Was it human3. Dr" #nderson: .I couldn*t see it clearly enou$h to tell you what it was, but now that I*%e had some interactions with the Win$4a1ers I 1now it was them [I be$an to theoriCe that some of the chamber &aintin$s may ha%e &ur&oses beyond 0ust %isual stimulation]. (hey were somehow usin$ these &aintin$s to a&&ear in our time. It was shortly after that e+&erience that I be$an to theoriCe that the &aintin$s were actually &ortals that could enable time tra%el or somethin$ li1e it. [2ur ?@ also had some e+&eriences of sensin$ motion in the &aintin$s, feelin$ as thou$h she was bein$ &ulled out of her body.]. #nne: .(his may seem to be an odd, off)the)wall 'uestion, but how do you 1now this wasn*t all a hoa+3 (hat someone or some $rou& created this whole thin$ to loo1 li1e an alien or future time ca&sule 0ust for the fun of &layin$ with your minds3. Dr" #nderson: .(he one thin$ we 1now for certain is that this is not a hoa+. (he Ancient Arrow site consists of an enormous roc1 structure that has literally been hollowed out in the form of a s&iral staircase [heli+] that detours e%ery :< [ten] meters into a se&arate chamber )) 2: [twenty)three] to be e+act. (he entire structure would ha%e ta1en an incredible technolo$y to build. We ha%e accurate datin$ of when the chamber &aintin$s were created, and they were 13

conclusi%ely &roduced in the !th [ninth] century, and we*re certain that this technolo$y didn*t e+ist then.. #nne: .I*m not tryin$ to ar$ue with you . . . [))] but if these artifacts are really from a time ";< years in our future [the 7entral ?ace], it 0ust seems so odd that they*d be buried inside a hu$e roc1 in the middle of nowhere . . . [))] in New 4e+ico of all &laces. And it also seems odd that they*d $o to all this wor1, but ma1e it so damn hard to understand what the hell they were tryin$ to say. Do you see what I mean3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, I understand, and I don*t ta1e your 'uestions as ar$umentati%e. But the &oint I*m ma1in$ is that this time ca&sule [site], or whate%er you choose to call it, is indeed a set of real ob0ects. And these ob0ects don*t e%en corres&ond to the same time frame. 6or e+am&le, while the &aintin$s were created about , ;< [ele%en hundred] years a$o, the artifacts do not e%en res&ond to our carbon datin$ or biochemical analysis. (o com&licate matters, the &icto$ra&hs that started to mysteriously a&&ear in and around the Ancient Arrow site were determined to ha%e been created in the &ast ;< [fifty] years, and could %ery well ha%e been done in the year, or month, the site was disco%ered. .(hese real ob0ects are admittedly an eni$ma, but they are not a hoa+ to my eyes. (he real 'uestion is whether the Win$4a1ers* identity [and &ur&ose] is as they re&resent it )) a future as&ect of humanity or an alien race that %isited earth around AD 8;<.. #nne: .21ay, let*s say it*s not a hoa+. (hen tell me why are you so con%inced it*s a time ca&sule [defensi%e wea&on]. It seems to me, that it mi$ht be more of a communication de%ice . . . [))] or &erha&s an educational tool of some 1ind. Why a time ca&sule [wea&on]3. Dr" #nderson: [.(he te+t from the o&tical disc states this. And we had an ?@ session that corroborated it..] .Aartly because it seemed that its creators wanted to share their culture with us. When we first be$an our analysis of the Ancient Arrow site, we felt that e%erythin$ within the chambers was alien. We were initially con%inced that this was an >( contact site, and we e%en considered the &ossibility that they had left these items behind to reco%er at a later date . ... #nne: ./ort of li1e an >( stora$e loc1er3. Dr" #nderson: .5es. #owe%er, some of the &aintin$s de&icted humans, and the landsca&es were of earth )) s&ecifically that re$ion of the &lanet in northern New 4e+ico. /o to us, it seemed less li1ely it was from an alien race. We also saw e%idence that there were interactions with the &recursor to the Na%a0o and &erha&s #o&i Indian tribes, 1nown today as the AnasaCi Indians. And a$ain, this was deduced from the &aintin$s . . . which initially were the only real records that we could inter&ret from. .As I recall we had a total of F" &ossible scenarios that had been de%elo&ed. 2ur most &robable scenario )) ran1ed by our com&uter systems )) was that the Ancient Arrow site re&resented an >( race that had left behind the e'ui%alent of a museum that recorded its interactions with the AnasaCi Indians. 2ur second most &robable scenario was that the site re&resented a time ca&sule left behind by the future %ersion of the 8abyrinth 9rou&.. 14

#nne: .(hat still seems odd to me . . . why did you thin1 it was a future %ersion of the 8abyrinth 9rou&3. Dr" #nderson: .(he 8abyrinth 9rou& uses as its identification symbol three concentric circles surroundin$ a s&here. (here were am&le de&ictions of this symbol within their &aintin$s. Also, it seemed so &eculiar to us that we had disco%ered this site in the manner that we did . . . it literally felt as thou$h we were $uided to this site. And remember, 6ifteen was %ery confident in the 8abyrinth 9rou&*s &ros&ects at de%elo&in$ B/(, and he 1new that the future %ersion of the 8abyrinth 9rou& would somehow ma1e contact. It was 0ust a matter of when and how.. #nne: .I 1now I must sound li1e the bi$$est doubter you*%e e%er encountered before, but it still doesn*t seem li1e a time ca&sule to me.. Dr" #nderson: .I*m not sayin$ you*re wron$. I*m only tellin$ you that that*s how it*s officially classified within the 8abyrinth 9rou&. It could %ery well ha%e multi&le meanin$s and &ur&oses. I for one, belie%e it*s more than a time ca&sule, thou$h I thin1 it has that element to it.. #nne: ./o what do you thin1 its &rimary &ur&ose is3. Dr" #nderson: .If you ta1e the Win$4a1ers on face %alue, in other words, what do they say it is, it*s a time ca&sule that will hel& facilitate the de%elo&ment of a $lobal culture. (hey claim that somehow, when all se%en of the time ca&sules are disco%ered, that they*ll ser%e as a communication brid$e between humans of today and their future sel%es.. [Note: The !ollowing se tion was inserted] [ Dr. Neruda= .(he te+t from the o&tical disc states this. And we had an ?@ session that corroborated it.. /arah= ./o, earth is this $enetic library that the Animus want to use in order to re)create themsel%es as soul carriers, as you &ut it3 And the Ancient Arrow site )) and its si+ com&anion sites )) is $oin$ to &rotect earth and all of us from these maraudin$ aliens3 #ow am I doin$ so far3. Dr. Neruda= .I can*t say that your s&ecific conclusions are ri$ht or wron$. I can only tell you that the Animus are a real threat and that the Win$4a1ers intend to &rotect their $enetics.. /arah= .21ay, then tell me, why would the 7entral ?ace, who li%es trillions of li$ht years away, would care about what ha&&ens to us3. Dr. Neruda= .(he 7entral ?ace is res&onsible for seedin$ and culti%atin$ hi$her life forms throu$hout the uni%erse, they*re %itally interested in &rotectin$ their $enetics from the Animus. >arth isn*t the only $enetic re&ository that they &rotect in this manner. 2ur ?@ sessions unco%ered a database of &lanets throu$hout our su&eruni%erse that was incalculably lar$e.. /arah= ./o this is 0ust standard o&eratin$ &rocedure for this race))to install a defensi%e wea&on on the &lanets they seed with life3. 15

Dr. Neruda= .I belie%e so.. /arah= .I loo1ed the word *Animus* u& in the dictionary this mornin$. It*s a real word. #ow did a race whose most recent %isit to earth was some three hundred million years a$o become an entry in Webster*s dictionary3. Dr. Neruda= .(heir name is 1nown e%en by the Win$4a1ers. (hey used the same word in their translation inde+es. (here are certain words that ha%e been &ur&osely seeded within our lan$ua$e by the Win$4a1ers.. /arah= ./o now you*re sayin$ that Win$4a1ers actually &lace words into our dictionaries3. Dr. Neruda= .No. ?emember when I told you that the Win$4a1ers were culture bearers3. /arah= .5es.. Dr. Neruda= .(hey ha%e encoded the disco%ery of lan$ua$e, mathematics, music, and so forth into our $enetic structures. As we e%ol%e, certain forerunners of our s&ecies )) &eo&le li1e you and I )) acti%ate a &art of their DNA before the rest of us. (hese forerunners are able to retrie%e this encoded information and share it with the s&ecies. In subse'uent $enerations, this insi$ht is transmitted, and &retty soon, the entire s&ecies encom&asses this new information or s1ill. /arah= ./o you*re really sayin$ that the word Animus was encoded into our sense of lan$ua$e, and someone in%ented the word, not realiCin$ it was the name of this alien synthetic race3. Dr. Neruda= .5es, somethin$ li1e that.. ] #nne: .I [also] read the memo that Dr. /authers [[a collea$ue of Dr. Neruda]] wrote and I remember those statements too, but a $lobal culture seems so unli1ely . . . so im&ossible [about a $lobal culture bein$ an outcome of this technolo$y from the Win$4a1ers* sites]. And furthermore, how could these ob0ects [from the Ancient Arrow site] be used to build a $lobal culture3 It seems a little naI%e to me.. Dr" #nderson: .All I can tell you is that it*s related to the Internet and a new communication technolo$y that the Win$4a1ers referred to as 28IN or the 2ne 8an$ua$e Intelli$ent Networ1. If you read the $lossary section that I left behind, you*ll see it referenced there. (he Win$4a1ers seem to feel confident that the 28IN technolo$y will hel& create the $lobal culture throu$h the Internet. (his incidentally is consistent with &ro&hecies that the 8abyrinth 9rou& was &ri%y to datin$ as far bac1 as ,;<< years a$o. 2f course the enablin$ technolo$y wasn*t called 28IN, but the notion of a $lobal culture and unified $o%ernance has been &redicted for many centuries.. #nne: .(his is what 9eor$e Bush used to call the New World order isn*t it3 Dr" #nderson: .5es, but there ha%e been four other &residents who*%e ac1nowled$ed this conce&t..

16

#nne: .What would ma1e the world*s &eo&le decide to unify under one $o%ernin$ body, or for that matter, create a $lobal culture . . . [))] whate%er that means3 I 0ust can*t en%ision it ha&&enin$ . . . [))] not in my lifetime.. Dr" #nderson: .Accordin$ to the Win$4a1ers it will ha&&en throu$h the di$ital economy and then throu$h the Internet*s 28IN technolo$y &latform. And throu$h this $lobal networ1, entertainment and educational content will be $lobaliCed. (his is the basis of a $lobal culture with unified commerce, content, and communities. 2nce these &ieces of the infrastructure are in &lace, then the need to $o%ern this infrastructure will loom as the &reeminent issue of the day. And the Gnited Nations is the lo$ical rulin$ body for such an endea%or. As lon$ as the World*s &eo&le allow the di$itiCation of the economy and embrace the 28IN technolo$y &latform, a $lobal $o%ernment and culture is %irtually assured to emer$e.. #nne: .And as you said last ni$ht, this is su&&osed to occur in 2< 83. Dr" #nderson: .Accordin$ to &ro&hecy, that*s when the Gnited Nations will hold initial elections for a unified world $o%ernment. And it won*t be an all &owerful, centraliCed authority, but rather a $lobal &ublic &olicy decision and enforcement or$aniCation for issues that effect the world at lar$e. Issues li1e &ollution, $lobal warmin$, border dis&utes, s&ace tra%el, terrorism, trade, commerce, 28IN technolo$y u&$rades, and $eneral technolo$y transfer &ro$rams.. #nne: ./o what will ha&&en to National so%erei$nty in this new role of the Gnited Nations3. Dr" #nderson: .I*m willin$ to answer your 'uestion in the form of a s&eculati%e res&onse, but I*m also aware that you had as1ed me at the outset of this inter%iew to remind you if you $ot off course. What would you li1e . . . [))]. #nne: No, you*re absolutely ri$ht. /orry. 8et*s $o bac1 to the artifacts . . . [))] what was the condition of the site when you first entered . . . [))] or better still, why don*t you 0ust describe your first encounter $oin$ inside the site.. Dr" #nderson: .I was one of fi%e from the A7I2 who made the tri& to New 4e+ico to e+&lore the site after it was initially determined to ha%e &otential >( im&lications. None of us at the time 1new anythin$ that would ha%e led us to conclude that the Ancient Arrow site would become such an im&ortant disco%ery. .(he only real clue we had was an artifact that had been reco%ered near, what was determined much later, as the entrance of the interior chamber of the time ca&sule. It was this artifact that brou$ht the &ro0ect under the control of the A7I2 because the artifact was considered by the N/A to ha%e &otential >( ori$ins.. #nne: .What s&ecifically led the N/A to conclude the artifact was alien3. Dr" #nderson: .8i1e all the other artifacts it showed no res&onse to carbon datin$ analysis and it had &eculiar mar1in$s or symbols that seemed other)worldly. It was a &ure $rade titanium) beryllium com&osite [of un1nown ori$in], which, as you may 1now, is e+tremely rare. Also, and &erha&s more im&ortantly, there was no ob%ious way to acti%ate the artifact or access its 17

interior controls. Its interior was im&er%ious to %arious s&ectrum analyses )) e%en sim&le +)rays were unable to &enetrate the ob0ect. .Any rate, this artifact was essentially handed o%er to the A7I2, which deemed it to be of >( ori$ins, and then &roceeded to in%esti$ate the re$ion in which it was found. We did this initially with no results, but on a subse'uent %isit we were able to use the artifact because one of our scientists )) 'uite by accident )) had fi$ured out how to acti%ate the artifact. [We disco%ered that the outside casin$ of the artifact held a detailed to&o$ra&hical ma& that defined the re$ion in which it was disco%ered. We be$an to thin1 the artifact mi$ht acti%ate or become more useful if ta1en to the re$ion de&icted on its casin$] We wanted to see what effect if any it would ha%e if acti%ated in the area it had been found.. #nne: .Is this the artifact you showed me &ictures of3. Dr" #nderson: .5es. [.No. (his artifact destroyed itself after it led us to the Ancient Arrow site..] #nne: .Why did you thin1 it was im&ortant to acti%ate it where it was found3. Dr" #nderson: .Because it was thou$ht to be a form of a com&ass or homin$ beacon. We weren*t sure, but we couldn*t determine any functional &ur&ose in the laboratory, so it seemed li1e a lo$ical e+&eriment to see how the de%ice would function in the area in which it was disco%ered. [Also, the ori$inal &eo&le who found the artifact com&lained that it induced a hallucino$enic e+&erience when it was held near the stomach area.] .(his was the first time I was in%ited to $o to the site. /o any rate, bac1 to my story, this [(he] e+&loration team from the A7I2 fi$ured out how to use this de%ice to locate the entrance to the interior of the canyon wall in which the time ca&sule [Ancient Arrow site] was hidden. (he de%ice, when acti%ated, seemed to &ass thou$ht wa%es or mental &ictures of where it wanted the &erson to $o. (he leader [?@ assi$ned to] of our team was the one holdin$ the de%ice when it was first acti%ated outside the site, and he [she] immediately be$an to see &ictures [. I did as well. Gltimately,] that [it] led him [us] into a ca%e)li1e structure tuc1ed 2<):< meters inside one of the clefts of the canyon wall.. #nne: .It seems a bit stran$e that you found the interior of the site usin$ this artifact you mentioned earlier . . . I mean doesn*t it seem a little too con%enient to find this thin$ ri$ht outside the entrance and then it $uides you inside3 Wasn*t [Was] there an entrance already or did you ha%e to blast your way inside3. Dr" #nderson: .(he way into the interior was cle%erly hidden behind a natural made ca%ern, which in its own ri$ht was well hidden by natural underbrush. (his ca%ern was about 2; meters dee& and led inside the canyon wall. We &resumed it was an Indian dwellin$ of some 1ind that had lon$ been abandoned. (owards the end of this ca%ern there was a small chamber [corridor] that 0utted off to the side, and at the bac1 of this chamber [corridor] there was [another chamber] a lar$e, flat roc1 on the floor . . . maybe two and half meters across and about two decimeters thic1. [A lar$e, flat roc1 on the floor hid the entrance to the site.] (he de%ice or artifact that had been found earlier was emittin$ mental &ictures to our team leader who was 18

con%inced it had led him to this flat roc1. We tried to mo%e the roc1, but it was clearly too hea%y for the fi%e of us to e%en bud$e. .It was actually the followin$ day that we returned to the site with &ic1 a+es and sled$e hammers, and be$an the tedious tas1 of brea1in$ the roc1 . . . . #nne: ./o you were con%inced there was somethin$ underneath the roc13. Dr" #nderson: .We thou$ht there had to be a reason that the de%ice had sent such a clear ima$e to our leader of this flat roc1 in the bac1 of this natural ca%ern. It seemed lo$ical that the de%ice )) if it were a homin$ de%ice of some 1ind )) mi$ht be leadin$ us to somethin$ it was desi$ned to hel& us find. .After about two hours of smashin$ the roc1, we finally crac1ed it into small enou$h &ieces that [5es. After remo%in$ the roc1,] we were able to determine a tunnel was indeed underneath it. (he tunnel was in the form of a .H. and was about one meter in diameter. We too1 turns and [I] slid down [first throu$h] the tunnel and stood at [crawled my way to] the entrance of the s&iral staircase [site].. #nne: ./o all fi%e of you were inside this . . . [))] this s&iral staircase [site] loo1in$ around with flashli$hts, what was runnin$ throu$h your mind at the time3. Dr" #nderson: .We were all %ery e+cited and somewhat a&&rehensi%e as well. We thou$ht we mi$ht find an >( site, and were half)aware that it could be an acti%e site . . . [))] which 1e&t us all on $uard. (he de%ice, or artifact be$an to emit a sound fre'uency that continued to rise in &itch as we wal1ed u& the tunnel and as we $ot to the first chamber it went entirely dead . . . as if its &ur&ose had been ser%ed and sim&ly shut down.. #nne: .And this whole thin$ was car%ed out of roc13. Dr" #nderson: .It was com&letely manmade . . . [))] or alien . . . [))] and we 1new it the instant we $ot out of the transition tunnel. It was li1e bein$ born into a com&letely new world. It was absolutely silentJ the air was cool, but not uncomfortably cold. (here were no si$ns of life, and it seemed li1e e%erythin$ too1 on a new &ur&ose . . . [))] an intelli$ent &ur&ose that we couldn*t wait to unra%el. .What was so remar1able was the incredible sense of wal1in$ into a surreal world )) a world that was created by somethin$ com&letely alien. We assumed it was of >( construction from the moment we ste&&ed out of the .H. tunnel. #nne: .But how did you immediately 1now it was an artificial construction, and not a natural set of chambers or ca%es3. Dr" #nderson: .At the be$innin$ of the s&iral staircase there were ornate &etro$ly&hs car%ed in the stone with a &recision ne%er before seen by our eyes. Also, the entire tunnel system was clearly too smooth )) almost &olished )) to be of natural construction. (here was a sense of architecture . . . [))] a sense that someone desi$ned it with e+treme care and &ur&ose. 19

.AmaCin$ly there was nothin$ on the floor. Not e%en a &ebble or a $rain of sand. >%ery surface was com&letely clean, smooth, and &olished. (here was dust, but only dust. And somethin$ li1e a &olymer coatin$ had been a&&lied to e%ery s'uare centimeter of the structure includin$ the ceilin$s. .When we arri%ed at the first chamber, which is only about :< meters from the entrance, I can clearly recall a sense of awe or somethin$ a&&roachin$ a reli$ious e+&erience I su&&ose. No one s&o1e for a lon$ time after our li$hts hit the first chamber &aintin$. >%eryone*s flashli$ht con%er$ed on the &aintin$ and we all 0ust stared for about F< seconds in the incredible silence of this tombli1e structure. I was the first to find my %oice, and all I could muster was *(his is definitely not Na%aho or any other Indian tribe for that matter.*. #nne: .Did you find all the chambers that same day3. Dr" #nderson: .5es. We went from chamber to chamber each time feelin$ li1e we had stumbled into an alien natural history museum. 5ou ha%e to understand that our li$htin$ was not %ery $ood because we hadn*t e+&ected to need anythin$ more than basic flashli$hts. I %i%idly remember seein$ each of the chamber &aintin$s for the first time and 0ust starin$ at them . . . [))] mesmeriCed by the incredible anachronism of the &lace. I*d ne%er been in such a surreal en%ironment . . . [))] it was both eerie and com&letely enchantin$ at the same time.. #nne: ./o how lar$e were the chambers and the &aintin$s themsel%es3. Dr" #nderson: .(he chambers themsel%es were relati%ely small . . . [))] about four meters in diameter with fairly hi$h ceilin$s, in some instances as hi$h as si+ meters. #nne: ./o[,] 0ud$in$ from the &hoto$ra&hs I*%e seen of the chamber &aintin$s, the &aintin$s themsel%es must be fairly lar$e3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, they*re lar$e and always face the entrance of the chamber. If you stand 0ust outside the entrance of a &articular chamber, you can*t see the whole &aintin$J it*s too lar$e. 5ou ha%e to wal1 into the chamber in order to see the whole com&osition.. #nne: .What, in the o&inions of the 8abyrinth 9rou&, are the artistic merits of these &aintin$s3. Dr" #nderson: .No one within the 8abyrinth 9rou& claims to be an art critic I can assure you. I thin1 it*s fair to say that of those who saw the chamber &aintin$s in their ori$inal en%ironment )) the chambers themsel%es )) they found the artistic merits to be %ery com&ellin$, e%en ca&ti%atin$. I thin1 those who saw them only re&resented in &hoto$ra&hs thou$ht they were less art and more of a co$ in some masterfully desi$ned wheel li1e an illustration in a children*s boo1.. #nne: .Not to chan$e the sub0ect, but I 1ee& wonderin$ how you came to choose me . . . [))] I mean . . . [))] I 1now you said it was com&letely random, but why did you select an a%era$e 0ournalist to share this story3 Why not a scientist or someone who could at least as1 you more so&histicated 'uestions3 I ha%e to confess that I feel com&letely inade'uate to inter%iew you, mostly because I don*t e%en 1now what 'uestions I should be as1in$ you . . . . 20

Dr" #nderson: .5ou*re doin$ a fine 0ob . . . [))] absolutely fine. 5ou shouldn*t worry about your 'uestions. (hey*re insi$htful. And most &eo&le, who will read this information, will be more interested in the thin$s you*%e in'uired about than the &hysics or science in%ol%ed anyway.. #nne: .Aerha&s, but I ha%e this na$$in$ feelin$ that if I could as1 you the scientific 'uestions then you could more easily &ro%e your story or credibility. I thin1 I*m handica&&in$ you in some way.. Dr" #nderson: .What is it e+actly that you feel you*re not as1in$ me3. #nne: .I $uess it*s mostly thin$s related to time tra%el and B/(. 8ast ni$ht you tal1ed about some thin$s that when I re)read them earlier today, I felt li1e I should ha%e as1ed more in) de&th 'uestions . . . . Dr" #nderson: .8i1e . . . [3]. #nne: .(hat*s the &roblem, I don*t 1now.. Dr" #nderson: .Anne [/arah], the reason I selected you was sim&le. I needed to find someone who 1new how to access the mainstream media, and yet be relati%ely obscure. #ad I chosen a science editor from a ma0or news&a&er, I may ha%e ended u& with more scientific 'uestions and less about the cultural, artistic, and social im&lications of the Ancient Arrow &ro0ect. 2f my random selections, I 1new that you had no established ima$e to &rotect, that you 1new how to access the media, and could as1 sound 'uestions that wouldn*t betray your identity. (hat*s why we*re tal1in$ ri$ht now . . . [))] and the fact that you didn*t thin1 I was craCy.. #nne: .I ne%er as1ed you this before, but I*m 0ust curious, was I the first 0ournalist you tal1ed with, or did someone turn you down before you found me3. Dr" #nderson: .No, you were the first and only &erson outside of the 8abyrinth 9rou& whom I*%e tal1ed with about this story.. #nne: .I*d li1e to chan$e the to&ic sli$htly and as1 you about 6ifteen*s &ersonality . . . [))] is that o1ay3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, that*s fine.. #nne: .What*s he li1e as a leader3. Dr" #nderson: .#e*s e+tremely focused, and demands e%eryone he wor1s with to be similarly focused. #e*s a wor1aholic, slee&s about four hours a ni$ht and wor1s the rest of his time on some as&ect of B/(. If there*s research or de%elo&ment of new technolo$ies that don*t ha%e a s&ecific and strate$ic im&act on B/(, he*s not in%ol%ed in it. Won*t e%en as1 'uestions about &ro0ects of that nature, and $enerally within the A7I2, there*s [are] always three or four &ro0ects that are unrelated to B/(. Within the 8abyrinth 9rou&, e%ery &ro0ect is related to B/(.. #nne: .What*s he loo1 li1e3. 21

Dr" #nderson: .#e*s about a%era$e hei$ht and has fairly lon$ $ray hair down to his shoulders which he usually wears in a &onytail. #e*s always reminded me of Aablo Aicasso with lon$ hair . . . [))] he has those same &enetratin$ eyes. #e*s ori$inally from /&ain, so it*s no coincidence that he loo1s li1e Aicasso. #is most notable feature is his eyes, they*re mischie%ous li1e you*d e+&ect from a child who*s done somethin$ wron$ on the surface, but underneath, they*%e created somethin$ wonderful, it*s 0ust that nobody understands the wonderful &art yet. (hat*s what you see $oin$ on behind his eyes.. #nne: .I may ha%e already as1ed you this, but how old is he3. Dr" #nderson: .#e*s about E< years old I thin1 )) or at least he loo1s about that old. I*%e ne%er heard anyone say his a$e. I 1now when he was a student, he was su&&osed to loo1 old for his a$e. I thin1 he started $ettin$ $ray hair when he was in his early twenties, and that*s &robably why he was often mista1en for a &rofessor rather than a student.. #nne: .5ou said earlier that he was 1ic1ed out of school. Why3. Dr" #nderson: .?emember, he was, e%en at an a$e when most 1ids are concerned about datin$ and &arties, wor1in$ on B/( . . . [))] or at least early %ersions of time tra%el. #e*s one of those %isionaries that enter the &hysical world and 1new at a %ery early a$e what he came to do. 6ifteen was born to time tra%el. Aeriod . . . [))] end of story. (hat*s all he*s e%er cared about. .In the fifties, researchin$ B/( was considered a waste of time, no &un intended. It was sim&ly too theoretical and disconnected from anythin$ &ractical. I thin1 6ifteen also rubbed his &rofessors the wron$ way because he was so bri$ht as a student that he intimidated most of them. #e*s also %ery stubborn, and when the &rofessors told him to chan$e his research to somethin$ more &ractical, 6ifteen a&&arently told them they were small)minded . . . or somethin$ to that effect. 8ater that semester he was forcibly e+&elled as the story was told to me. .#owe%er, Bell 8abs hired him for a short stint because his research on 'uantum ob0ects and how they could be influenced by consciousness was of interest to [interested] them.. #nne: .6or$i%e me, but what e+actly are 'uantum ob0ects3. Dr" #nderson: .(hey*re elementals li1e electrons or neutrons. Kuantum ob0ects are fundamental buildin$ bloc1s of matter, and they can a&&ear both as a wa%e and a &article.. #nne: .21ay, so 6ifteen was tryin$ to &ro%e that 'uantum ob0ects are influenced by consciousness. Why was that so dan$erous to a research uni%ersity3. Dr" #nderson: .(hat in itself wasn*t so radical, but it was only a small &art of his total research into how to construct B/( usin$ the new &hysics that was bein$ introduced ra&idly in the community of 'uantum &hysics. 6ifteen has always maintained that >instein*s $eneral theory of relati%ity was flawed. Which is not a &o&ular &osition to ta1e. In somewhat the same way that Newton*s theory of the mechanistic uni%erse became too constricted and unable to e+&lain so

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much of the &henomenon of what we call today, com&le+ity or chaos theory, 6ifteen felt that >instein*s theories underestimated the influence that consciousness had on 'uantum ob0ects. .In the fifties and si+ties, this was tantamount to heresy, &articularly because it was im&ossible to &ro%e by mathematical modelin$ or formula. /o [7onse'uently,] 6ifteen 0ust continued to de%elo& his theories in secret and be$an to become noticed by the A7I2 when he became in%ol%ed in a &ro0ect ha%in$ to do with heuristic learnin$ systems based on a technolo$y that the A7I2 had re)en$ineered from the 9reys. .(he &ro0ect leader from the A7I2 reco$niCed his intellect and rou$e creati%ity and be$an to de%elo& a relationshi& with the youn$ man. /e%eral months later, 6ifteen was recruited to 0oin the A7I2 and essentially left his identity behind[,] and 'uic1ly rose [risin$] to the &osition of director of research. #e was later introduced to the 7orteum intelli$ence accelerator technolo$y, and the rest is history as they say.. #nne: .#ow e+actly does this 7orteum technolo$y accelerate or e+&and the intelli$ence3. Dr" #nderson: .6ew &eo&le realiCe that their conscious mind only &rocesses about ; bits of information &er second of linear time. #owe%er, in %ertical time, the unconscious mind is &rocessin$ a&&ro+imately "<)8< million bits of information. (hus, in normal consciousness, humans are aware of only an infinitesimal amount of the information that is constantly bein$ fed to them at the unconscious le%el. (he 7orteum technolo$y was desi$ned to reduce the filterin$ as&ects of the conscious mind and enable the hi$her fre'uency information &ac1ets to be fed to the conscious mind. .In &arallel with this effort, the brain circuitry )) if you will )) is re)wired to handle the hi$her %olta$e of the information that is bein$ fed to the consciousness, allowin$ ca&abilities li1e &hoto$ra&hic memory and abstract thou$ht to co)e+ist. (hese ca&abilities become the matri+ filter that draws from the unconscious re&ositories the most rele%ant information at any &articular time based on the &roblem or tas1 at hand.. #nne: .If I were a beha%ioral scientist, I*d be able to as1 you about a thousand 'uestions ri$ht now. But I*m lost in what you say . . . [))] I mean, how many bits of information can you &rocess ri$ht now3. Dr" #nderson: .It*s not really a sim&le 'uestion of the 'uantity of information &rocessin$, but rather the rele%ance of the information in linear time based on the intention of the indi%idual. When one $oes throu$h the &rocess of the 7orteum technolo$y, their ability to tune into information &ac1ets that are rele%ant to a situation or &roblem is %astly im&ro%ed. In most &eo&le, when a $i%en situation confronts them they access their conscious mind and &ull out the solution that has ser%ed them in the &ast. (hus, &eo&le fall into ruts and &atterned beha%ior which closes down their access to the unconscious information &ac1ets that are based on real) time situation analysis and ha%e e+tremely hi$h rele%ancy. .(his technolo$y accelerates e%olutionary thou$ht &rocesses and enables the circulation of information between the conscious and unconscious as&ects of the mind to flow in the &attern of an ascendin$ s&iral rather than the &attern of a re&etitious circle. And it*s because of this 23

'uality of the 7orteum technolo$y that [it] unleashes the innate intelli$ence of the indi%idual. /o you see, the 7orteum technolo$y doesn*t increase raw intelli$ence, it sim&ly facilitates the natural intelli$ence of the indi%idual.. #nne: .(his is %ery cool. I wish I could under$o this re$imen of the 7orteum intelli$ence accelerator so I could really as1 you some Cin$er 'uestionsL And with that, let*s ta1e a short brea1.. < minute brea1 . . . Dr" #nderson: ./ince you ha%e the ta&e recorder on now, let me re&eat myself. (he 7orteum technolo$y was the sin$le most influential element in hel&in$ 6ifteen become the >+ecuti%e Director of both the A7I2 and the 8abyrinth 9rou&. 9ranted, he had a brilliant mind before he underwent the 7orteum intelli$ence enhancement &rocess, but for some reason, the technolo$y seemed to enhance his intelli$ence more than anyone else . . . [))] by a si$nificant de$ree.. #nne: .Did anyone e%er sus&ect that the 7orteum and 6ifteen were somehow a se&arate force from the 8abyrinth 9rou&. I mean, did anyone consider the &ossibility that they had a se&arate a$enda . . . [))] maybe B/( wasn*t their ultimate $oal3. Dr" #nderson: .No. (here was, and I &resume still is, absolute faith in both 6ifteen and the 7orteum. 5ou ha%e to understand that the 7orteum are a bene%olent race. We ne%er saw any e%idence that they had anythin$ but $ood intentions to assist us, and, to the e+tent &ossible, we tried to assist them in return. It was a courteous and com&letely reci&rocal &artnershi&.. #nne: .5ou said last ni$ht that the 7orteum were &art of the 8abyrinth 9rou&, but only a cou&le hundred or so were actual members. #ow did they become &art of the 8abyrinth 9rou&3. Dr" #nderson: .Actually, I don*t 1now for certain. I can only tell you what I was told when I as1ed the same 'uestion of one of the directors who s&onsored me for entry into the 8abyrinth 9rou&. #e told me that 6ifteen had been selected by the 7orteum to be their liaison with the A7I2. (hey sin$led him out, as the one throu$h which they would initiate their technolo$y transfer &ro$ram with humans. .6ifteen a$reed to sub0ect himself to the intelli$ence enhancement technolo$y the 7orteum offered. It was from this e+&erience that 6ifteen*s %ision of how B/( could be de%elo&ed was crystalliCed. #e essentially created the framewor1 and desi$n blue&rint. .2ne of the thin$s that the 7orteum ha%e in abundance is lo$ical intelli$ence. (hey are %ery ade&t in terms of scientific in'uiry and lo$ical reasonin$. By their own admission, where they lac1 ability is in the creati%e %isionary as&ect of disco%ery. (his is &recisely where 6ifteen e+cels .... #nne: .But you*re tal1in$ about a race that is su&erior to us in their technolo$ies, how can they lac1 creati%e insi$hts3.

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Dr" #nderson: .(hese thin$s are all rele%ant. 7om&ared to %irtually all other humans, the 7orteum are creati%e and %isionary. But there are formati%e &rinci&les of &hysics that reside in a dimensional matri+ that are com&letely forei$n to all bein$s e+ce&t the most &enetratin$ intellects. And 6ifteen has such an intellect. (he 7orteum are ho&in$ that 6ifteen, and more $enerally, the 8abyrinth 9rou&, can de%elo& B/( because the 7orteum ha%e their own a&&lication for this technolo$y.. #nne: .But last ni$ht you said there are other races within our $ala+y that already ha%e time tra%el ca&abilities, why don*t the 7orteum sim&ly $o to these races and ma1e a deal with them3. Dr" #nderson: .As I said before, a s&ecies that has, of their own initiati%e, de%elo&ed time tra%el will be unwillin$ to share it with another race. It is truly the most $uarded of all technolo$ies. And one doesn*t sim&ly as1 to borrow the technolo$y when they need it. >%en when the need seems com&ellin$ and true. It*s so easy to become de&endent on the technolo$y itself. 6urthermore, as I tried to e+&lain last e%enin$, there*s a considerable difference between time tra%el and B/(. I*m not aware of any s&ecies that &ossesses the form of B/( that the 8abyrinth 9rou& is attem&tin$ to de%elo&. .It*s li1e this, Anne, B/( re'uires a suite of interde&endent, but discrete technolo$ies that re'uire a de%elo&er to a&&ly new theorems, new laws of &hysics, that ha%e ne%er been disco%ered before. And then to build this suite of technolo$ies based fundamentally on a new matri+ of how the world wor1s . . . [))] it*s a dauntin$ tas1. >%erythin$ &re%iously held to be true needs to be destroyed, needs to be re)in%ented, re)formulated, and then inte$rated into this new matri+. .(his is the %ery nature of B/(, you start with a blan1 slate and re)in%ent, re)formulate, and recreate the consciousness of matter.. #nne: ./low down . . . [))] 5ou [you] 0ust lost me. (he consciousness of matter3. Dr" #nderson: .?emember what I said earlier about 'uantum ob0ects and how they*re influenced by consciousness3. #nne: .5es.. Dr" #nderson: .Kuantum ob0ects become increasin$ly $ranular or refined until they become &ure li$ht ener$y and cease to ha%e mass. (hey are not of &hysical reality, but rather of a &ure) state ener$y. (his ener$y is further se$mented into octa%es of %ibration. In other words, this li$ht ener$y %ibrates, and 0ust li1e music, there are fundamentals and harmonics. (he harmonics resonate with the fundamental ener$y %ibration and the whole ener$y &ac1et sin$s li1e a choir . . . [))] e+ce&t its %oice is li$ht. .(his sin$in$, if you will, is the e'ui%alent of a consciousness that &er%ades all matter . . . e%ery &hysical ob0ect in the entire uni%erse. 6ifteen has successfully &ro%en this all)&er%asi%e consciousness or what he calls the 8i$ht)>ncoded ?eality 4atri+ or 8>?4, for those of us who li1e shorthand. Any way, 8>?4 is 0ust one of the new theorems that were re'uired in order to

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de%ise a way to &ro%e that B/( was indeed a &ossibility, and not 0ust a fanciful %ision inside the mind of 6ifteen.. #nne: .(his all)&er%asi%e consciousness you mentioned, are you really tal1in$ about s&irit or 9od3. Dr" #nderson: .>+actly.. #nne: .Now you*%e really crossed o%er the line. 5ou*re $oin$ to tell me that 6ifteen disco%ered 9od. (hat he has &roof of 9od3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, in a way, but . . . [))] but 9od isn*t what we call it. It*s 8>?4. And 6ifteen was 'uite em&hatic that we ne%er refer to 8>?4 as 9od or e%en 9od)li1e. #e &referred to thin1 of 8>?4 as the shadow of 9od. (he li$ht that casts the shadow, and the ob0ect of the shadow itself, he belie%es is im&ossible to &ro%e throu$h science or any other ob0ecti%e form of in'uiry.. #nne: .21ay . . . [))] o1ay. But listen to me for a minute. If 8>?4 is the shadow of 9od, as you &ut it, then it &ro%es the e+istence of 9od, ri$ht3. Dr" #nderson: .(o those of us within the 8abyrinth 9rou& who understand the wor1 of 6ifteen, the answer is yes.. #nne: ./o isn*t this e%en more im&ortant than the Ancient Arrow &ro0ect3 I mean, if someone had &roof of 9od, isn*t it their moral res&onsibility to share this information with the &ublic3. Dr" #nderson: .Aerha&s, but the only way this could be shared with the &ublic is to disclose who the 8abyrinth 9rou& is, and that isn*t somethin$ that 6ifteen e%en li1es to contem&late doin$. #e*s afraid of the ridicule and misunderstandin$ that would result, and firmly belie%es that no one would belie%e him anyway because there are so many hidden technolo$ies that led him to his findin$s, and he has no interest in disclosin$ these technolo$ies to academia, $o%ernment institutions, or the media. #e*d become the ne+t messiah . . . or de%il, de&endin$ on your &ers&ecti%e.. #nne: ./o he*s tra&&ed in his own secrecy . . . . Dr" #nderson: .In a way, but he*s not feelin$ tra&&ed. #e*s sim&ly so far remo%ed from the social fabric and scientific communities of academia that he has, for &ractical &ur&oses, burned his brid$es and has no intention of e%er crossin$ the chasm that se&arates himself from all that he*s left behind.. #nne: .#e must be incredibly lonely.. Dr" #nderson: .I don*t thin1 so. #e seems e+tremely ener$iCed and basically ha&&y. #e*s doin$ e+actly what he wants to do, I can*t say I*%e e%er seen him de&ressed . . . [))] maybe disa&&ointed, but ne%er de&ressed.. #nne: .I still don*t see the connection between 8>?4 and B/( . . . . 26

Dr" #nderson: .5ou see, if matter ultimately dissol%es into octa%es of li$ht, and li$ht dissol%es into octa%es of consciousness, and consciousness dissol%es into octa%es of reality, then matter, li$ht, consciousness, and reality are all interde&endent li1e an ecosystem. And li1e an ecosystem, if you chan$e one element you effect the whole. /o isolatin$ any of the elements contained within 8>?4, and chan$in$ it, it can chan$e reality. And this is a fundamental construct of B/(. Does that answer your 'uestion3. #nne: .I*m not sure . . . I don*t 1now, maybe all of this doesn*t matter. A$ain, I*m feelin$ out of my territory. I find this interestin$, but at the same time, it*s frustratin$. I e%en find myself feelin$ &issed off that all of this stuff is $oin$ on in my world and I don*t 1now about it . . . well, I mean I didn*t 1now about it until 0ust now. It seems li1e an in0ustice to me. It*s the old ha%es and ha%e)nots story all o%er a$ain. 7an you a&&reciate how someone would feel . . . hearin$ all of this for the first time, and feelin$ so left out3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, I understand.. #nne: .(o you, you can ta1e all of this for $ranted. Afterall, you*re in the 1now. But the rest of us, we muddle throu$h our little li%es thin1in$ the world is this and that, when really we*re 0ust bum&in$ into each other in the dar1. We*re essentially clueless, aren*t we3. Dr" #nderson: .I don*t 1now . . . maybe. 4aybe you*re ri$ht, it doesn*t matter. I sim&ly 1now what I 1now and I belie%e what I belie%e. Any more than that, it*s as mysterious to me as it is to you. It would be a $reat mista1e to thin1 that the 8abyrinth 9rou&[,] or any of its members, includin$ 6ifteen and the 7orteum, understand it all. (hey don*t. But they wor1 hard to $et the answers, Anne. I mean really hard. (hey*%e de%oted their entire li%es to this mission of B/(. (hey didn*t sim&ly fall into the 1nowled$e by accident. (hey tried and failed at thousands of different e+&eriments until they found the e+istence of 8>?4, and they*ll &robably fail another thousand times before they find the solution to B/(. But belie%e me, these indi%iduals didn*t arri%e at their 1nowled$e casually or because it was $ifted to them by some hi$her force.. #nne: .No, I didn*t mean it that way. I*m $lad for the 8abyrinth 9rou& . . . [))] I mean it. I*m ha&&y that someone on this &lanet has fi$ured this out, or at least is tryin$. It*s 0ust unfair that so few ha%e the &roof . . . [))] the 1nowled$e . . . [))] the o&&ortunity to understand all of this. (heir li%es are so different, they mi$ht as well be li%in$ on some other &lanet. (hey mi$ht as well be e+traterrestrials.. Dr" #nderson: .I*m only lau$hin$ because that*s been a fear of 6ifteen*s from the startJ that if someone e%er did find out about the 8abyrinth 9rou& and its a$enda, they would be re$arded as >(s. And here you are, confirmin$ that fear.. #nne: .In a way, I wish you hadn*t selected me. 4y life is so different now. (his is all I can thin1 about. It consumes me e%ery wa1in$ minute. I ha%e no idea how I*m $oin$ to $et this story out. I ha%e no idea. None.. Dr" #nderson: .Anne, do you remember the first time we tal1ed and I mentioned the 7orteum3 5our first 'uestion was, What do they loo1 li1e3.

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#nne: .5es. And your &oint is . . . 3. Dr" #nderson: .(hese are the natural 'uestions that &eo&le will ha%e. 8>?4 may interest a few scientists, but I doubt it. What*s &ortrayed in these inter%iews is so su&erficial that I doubt any scientist would ta1e it %ery seriously. And those that would, would find it to be a noble $esture to authenticate monistic idealism, and nothin$ more. /o you see, your initial instincts should be trusted. As1 the 'uestions that &eo&le would be interested in that a&&eal to their basic sense of curiosity. And don*t worry about chan$in$ the world throu$h anythin$ I ha%e to say. I don*t need that wei$ht on my shoulders.. #nne: .21ay, you*re ri$ht. 5ou*re absolutely ri$ht. Besides, I*m not sure about the truth of all of this. I*m still not con%inced of what you say . . . [))] 0ust for the record.. Dr" #nderson: .And I*m still not tryin$ to con%ince you or anybody else. I*m 0ust answerin$ your 'uestions as truthfully as I 1now how.. #nne: .(ouchM. .Now, for the benefit of those who read this inter%iew e%entually, what do the 7orteum loo1 li1e3. Dr" #nderson: .I thou$ht you*d ne%er as1. (hey stand nearly three meters hi$h and ha%e %ery elon$ated heads and bodies. (heir s1in is %ery fair . . . [))] almost translucent, li1e you mi$ht e+&ect from a ca%e dweller. (heir eyes are relati%ely lar$e and ha%e %arious colors 0ust li1e our own, e+ce&t the 7orteum ha%e different colors to their eyes de&endin$ on their a$e and, in some instances, their emotional state. .What*s %ery uni'ue about the 7orteum is that they ha%e an incredibly articulate ner%ous system that enables them to &rocess %irtually e%erythin$ that occurs within their en%ironment, includin$ the thou$hts of another. Which means that when you*re in their &resence, you need to ha%e control of your thou$hts or else you*ll &otentially offend them. (hey*re %ery sensiti%e emotionally. #nne: .#ow do they communicate with you3. Dr" #nderson: .(hey s&ea1 &erfect >n$lish or 6rench, Italian, /&anish, or most any other lan$ua$e for that matter. (hey*re %ery $ifted lin$uists and can ac'uire a%era$e lan$ua$e s1ills in a matter of a few wee1s, and o&erate as masters of the lan$ua$e within a few months. (heir minds are li1e s&on$es, but li1e I said before, while they &ossess incredible mental &owers to absorb new information and synthesiCe it with &re%ious information, they*re not necessarily ade&t at creatin$ new information totally unrelated to e+istin$ information. (hat*s &recisely what im&ressed them so much with 6ifteen.. #nne: .What*s their interest in the Ancient Arrow &ro0ect3.

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Dr" #nderson: .No different than 6ifteen*s I &resume. (hey*re com&letely absorbed in the efforts to create B/(, and ho&e that there*s some technolo$y or theorem within the Ancient Arrow site that can hel& accelerate the de%elo&ment of B/(.. #nne: .And what do the 7orteum want to do with B/(3. Dr" #nderson: .(he 7orteum ha%e a &lanetary system that*s in a %ery fra$ile state because its &rotecti%e atmos&here is de$eneratin$ at an alarmin$ rate. (heir atmos&here &rotects them, 0ust as our own, from harmful li$ht wa%es that are $enerated from their local sun, and, to a lesser e+tent, their closest stars. Anyway, this condition has led them to become nocturnal, only %enturin$ outside at ni$ht, and e%en then, only for as short a time as necessary. 2%er many $enerations, this has left them increasin$ly susce&tible to the %ery condition that they*re tryin$ to sol%e. (heir outer s1ins become more and more sensiti%e while their atmos&here becomes less &rotecti%e. .(heir scientists &redict it*s only about <)2< years before they*ll ha%e to stay in under$round communities year)round. (his has had a ma0or im&act on their standard of li%in$, economy, social structure, e%ery &ossible as&ect of their society has been effected, and mostly in a ne$ati%e way, at least by their own measure. (hey ho&e that B/( will enable them to install a technolo$y that they*%e recently disco%ered to &re%ent the deterioration of their atmos&here.. #nne: .Why can*t they sim&ly de&loy this technolo$y now3. Dr" #nderson: .It*s not a re$enerati%e technolo$y, it*s a &re%entati%e technolo$y. ?e$enerati%e technolo$ies are im&ossible once a system reaches a certain retro$rade tra0ectory. In their scenario, only B/( would restore their en%ironment.. #nne: .2b%iously they ha%e s&ace tra%el technolo$y, why don*t they &ic1 out another &lanet and coloniCe it3. Dr" #nderson: .(hey ha%e tried, but e%ery &lanet they*%e found that*s suitable for their s&ecies is occu&ied. And they*re not interested in bein$ assimilated into an e+istin$ culture or society. (hey want their own identity and social structure. Also, what they deem suitable for habitation is e+tremely &articular. 6or e+am&le, they ha%e the same &roblem with earth as they ha%e with their own &lanet . . . [))] in fact, it*s worse here. (hey ha%e to li%e in our under$round base in order to sur%i%e on our &lanet. It re'uired that we build a s&ecial way)station for their s&acecraft.. #nne: .Do they want to interact with our $o%ernments and our &eo&le3. Dr" #nderson: .Initially I thin1 they did. And in fact they tried. But they were 'uic1ly escorted to the A7I2 and we con%inced the N/A and all other interested &arties that the 7orteum had left earth fearful of their li%es. /o . . . [))] as far as our o&erati%es within the N/A are concerned, the 7orteum are lon$ $one, and fortunately the N/A at the time were 'uite &reoccu&ied with other >( issues anyway, namely the 9reys..

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#nne: .I want to return to the Win$4a1ers for a moment. What do the 7orteum thin1 of the Win$4a1ers* time ca&sule, I assume they*%e seen e%erythin$3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, they*%e been in%ol%ed from the be$innin$. (he 7orteum are as inte$ral to the 8abyrinth 9rou& as any of its human members, so nothin$ is hidden from them. (he leader of the 7orteum mission to earth is called )) in >n$lish )) 4ahunahi, and he ha&&ens to be an artist first and foremost, and a scientist is his secondary nature. #e was always e+cited to see and hear about our findin$s. #e as1ed if we could create a way)station to the Ancient Arrow site so he could %isit the site himself, but it 0ust wasn*t &ractical to do so without drawin$ attention to the site.. #nne: .I ha%e a few oddball 'uestions, so bear with me. 6irst, e%ery time you mention a member of the A7I2, 8abyrinth 9rou&, or 7orteum, it*s always a male reference. Are their any women in any of these or$aniCations3 And secondly, why would an artist be the leader of a s&ace mission of the 7orteum3 (hat seems %ery stran$e to me.. Dr" #nderson: .In answer to your first 'uestion, it*s true that the 8abyrinth 9rou& is mostly male. I*m not aware of this bein$ by desi$n, but rather by accident. 2ne of the directors is a woman, she*s in char$e of communications, and, as a director has a le%el F [fourteen] clearance. We also ha%e &erha&s ! females who are in the 2 [twel%e] or : [thirteen] clearance cate$ories, all of them are e+tremely bri$ht and ca&able and share res&onsibility with their male counter&arts without any form of discrimination . . . [))] at least that I*%e e%er been aware of. We e%en ha%e one married cou&le. >ach &erson )) re$ardless of se+ )) is &aid the identical sum of money and has all the same &ri%ile$es . . . [))] there*s no distinction whatsoe%er within the ran1s of the 8abyrinth 9rou&, and that*s at 6ifteen*s insistence. .As for the 7orteum, they*re all males. (heir culture is much more role)defined than our own. And it*s not to say the females are treated as the lesser se+ . . . [))] no, in fact it may be the 'uite the o&&osite, it*s 0ust that s&ace tra%el and interaction with other s&ecies is left to the male se+ until s&ecies interaction &rocedures are in%o1ed. (hat*s so their children can retain access to their mothers and their families can remain more intact. 4ost, if not all, of the members of the 7orteum contin$ent are married. .As for your second 'uestion, the 7orteum loo1 at science, reli$ion, and art as three e'ual members of a unified belief system that defines their social order. As I understand it, leadershi& %aries between each of these three elements of their social order, de&endin$ on the contact that is made with an alien race. When they first made contact with humans it was decided that the leadershi& should come from the ran1s of the artistic side because they felt we were more of an e'ual in this domain and thus the leader could more a&&ro&riately understand our moti%ations and desires.. #nne: .(hat*s interestin$. (hey actually thou$ht we were more artistic than scientific or s&iritual. I $uess now that I thin1 about it, I can understand that. As a race, we &robably are more inclined in that way than the others.. Dr" #nderson: .(hat was their assessment any way..

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#nne: .I*d li1e to $o bac1 to the artifacts for a minute. (he artifacts that are technolo$y based, where are they ri$ht now3. Dr" #nderson: .After the initial disco%ery of the Ancient Arrow site, all of the &hysical artifacts that could be remo%ed from the site were carefully &ac1ed in shi&&in$ crates and shi&&ed to the A7I2 research lab in @ir$inia [/outhern 7alifornia], and are held by the 8abyrinth 9rou& in its own laboratory. (hat*s where they still are, to the best of my 1nowled$e.. #nne: .And only the homin$ de%ice found outside the site and the o&tical disc ha%e been, to some e+tent, understood3. Dr" #nderson: .(hat*s correct.. #nne: .5ou 1now, somethin$ you said earlier doesn*t ma1e much sense to me. If the Win$4a1ers did re&resent a future %ersion of humanity, and let*s say they were tryin$ to &ro%ide the entire reci&e for B/( throu$h this time ca&sule, why wouldn*t they sim&ly beam themsel%es to your head'uarters in @ir$inia and 0ust cut to the chase. All of this other stuff . . . the &aintin$s, the &oetry, the music, the eni$matic artifacts, the &hiloso&hy, e%en the elaborate site itself, why not 0ust $i%e the blue&rints to 6ifteen and be done with it3. Dr" #nderson: .It*s actually a %ery $ood 'uestion, and I was wonderin$ if you*d as1 it. (here are a few facts that we 1now of for certain. (he Win$4a1ers can time tra%el and they can interact &hysically with the time and s&ace that they %isit . . . that*s ob%ious $i%en what they did with the Ancient Arrow site. #owe%er, we don*t 1now if they ha%e all fi%e elements of B/(. ?emember the element that &ertains to inter%ention &oints3. #nne: .5es, that*s the one that defines when to inter%ene at the &oint in time that is causal and has the least ri&&le effect on related, but se&arate e%ents. ?i$ht3. Dr" #nderson: .5our definition is missin$ only one thin$, inter%ention &oints are co)de&endent on both time and s&ace. In other words, B/( re'uires a &recise fi+ on both the time and s&ace coordinates of an e%ent when it was in its conce&tual sta$e )) or the sta$e that &recedes &hysical manifestation of the e%ent. (he s&ace com&onent is usually a &hysical &erson or an e%ent of nature that is focused in s&ace. (his is a %ery tric1y technolo$y, and I belie%e that the Win$4a1ers ha%e disco%ered interacti%e time tra%el, but still lac1 the technolo$y to define inter%ention &oints with &recision.. #nne: .2r &erha&s they 0ust li1e &uCCles.. Dr" #nderson: .2r &erha&s they 0ust li1e &uCCles . . . e+actly.. #nne: ./o we really don*t 1now whether B/( is &ossible, do we3. Dr" #nderson: .We 1now it*s &ossible, but it*s li1e anythin$ that is e+tremely com&licated and interde&endent, one needs a fine $rain understandin$ of the total en%ironment that encom&asses the &roblem before they can modify or chan$e the en%ironment to sol%e the &roblem. And this re'uires an understandin$ of 8>?4 that is still e%ol%in$ within the 8abyrinth 31

9rou&, and I dare say, may yet re'uire another decade [years] of e+&erimentation before its understandin$ is sufficient to identify inter%ention &oints and time)s&lice in such a way to minimiCe undesirable effects.. #nne: ./o we*re bac1 to the shadow of 9od discussion . . . [))] or 8>?4 as you affectionately call it. Why is the understandin$ of 8>?4 so fundamental to achie%in$ B/(3. Dr" #nderson: .Because 8>?4 is the e'ui%alent of $enetics for consciousness, and consciousness is the e'ui%alent of reality formulation for sentient bein$s. /o if 8>?4 is understood, one understands the causal system that o&erates in non)time and non)s&ace, which fundamentally constructs the reality framewor1 of s&ace, time, ener$y, and matter. Kuantum ob0ects o&eratin$ in the construct of 8>?4 ha%e an e+istence that is entirely different from macro ob0ects li1e this table or chair. Kuantum ob0ects )) in their true state )) ha%e ne%er been seen by a human. /cientists ha%e witnessed the effects and some of the &ro&erties of 'uantum ob0ects, but their causal nature is not %isible throu$h scientific instruments . . . [))] no matter how &owerful they are, because scientific instruments are &hysical and therefore ha%e a relationshi& to s&ace and time. Whereas 'uantum ob0ects ha%e no relationshi& to time and s&ace other than throu$h an obser%er.. #nne: ./o you*re sayin$ that the buildin$ bloc1s of matter )) these 'uantum ob0ects )) ha%e no e+istence unless someone is obser%in$ them . . . [))] that consciousness ma1es them a&&ear real and fi+ed in time and s&ace3 Is that what you*re sayin$3. Dr" #nderson: In a way, but not e+actly. 8et me try and e+&lain it li1e this. 7onsciousness stems or ori$inates from non)time and non)s&ace as a form of ener$y that is a basic buildin$ bloc1 of 8>?4. 7onsciousness becomes localiCed as it becomes &hysical. In other words, consciousness becomes human, or animal, or &lant or some ob0ect that has &hysical characteristics. Are you with me so far3. #nne: .5es.. Dr" #nderson: .9ood. As consciousness becomes a localiCed &hysical ob0ect, it essentially orchestrates 8>?4 to conform to a reality matri+ that has been encoded into the $enetic or &hysical &ro&erties of the ob0ect it has become. In other words, consciousness mo%es from non) s&ace and non)time to become matter, and then it orchestrates 8>?4 to &roduce a &hysical reality consistent to the encoded $enetic &ro&erties of the &hysical ob0ect it has become. If that ob0ect is a human bein$, then the $enetic tri$$ers that are uni'uely human become the tools of consciousness from which it constructs its reality. .8>?4 is essentially an infinite field of &ossibilities, or, as Aristotle referred to it, Aotentia. (his Aotentia is li1e fertile soil from which &hysical ob0ects are created. (hose who can orchestrate 8>?4 throu$h the a&&lication of their consciousness are able to manifest reality and not sim&ly react to it. (his manifestation can be instantaneous because a$ain, 'uantum ob0ects ori$inate in non)time and non)s&ace . . . .

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#nne: .Not to $et o%erly reli$ious here, but what you*re really tal1in$ about is what Hesus or other &ro&hets ha%e done . . . [))] essentially manifest thin$s li1e turnin$ water to wine or curin$ the sic1. ?i$ht3. Dr" #nderson: .5es. It*s the same &rinci&le only I*%e described it instead of &erformed it. It*s much easier to &erform than describe.. #nne: ./o now you*re $oin$ to tell me you can turn water into wine3. Dr" #nderson: .Actually I*%e ne%er tried that before, but yes, all of the members of the 8abyrinth 9rou& can manifest &hysical ob0ects from out of 8>?4. (his was actually one of the outcomes of 6ifteen*s disco%ery. (he &rocess of orchestratin$ 8>?4 and manifestin$ &hysical ob0ects on demand.. #nne: .21ay, now you*%e definitely $ot my interest, but I*m feelin$ a little $uilty because I swore I was $oin$ to stay on the sub0ect of the Win$4a1ers and the Ancient Arrow &ro0ect. /o tell me, can you teach me how to manifest thin$s out of thin air3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, but it would ta1e some time . . . [))] &robably a few wee1s or so.. #nne: .7an you show me some e+am&les of how you do it3. Dr" #nderson: .#ow*s this3. #nne: .6or &ur&oses of those readin$ these transcri&ts later on. Dr. Anderson 0ust made a ball of twine a&&ear out of no where. #e 0ust made it disa&&ear as well. Now it has rea&&eared a$ain. (his is incredible. #e*s not holdin$ it, so it*s not li1e a ma$ician who*s ma1in$ this a&&ear from his slee%e or from behind his hands somehow. It*s 'uite literally a&&earin$ and disa&&earin$ on a table about : [three] feet in front of him, which is about E [si+] feet away from me. I can see it all %ery clearly. .I*m &ic1in$ u& the ball of strin$ and it is definitely a &hysical ob0ect . . . [))] not sim&ly a mira$e or . . . [))] or holo$ram. It has all the normal &ro&erties . . . [))] wei$ht . . . [))] te+ture . . . [))] it*s sli$htly warm to the touch, but in e%ery other res&ect, it*s e+actly how I*d e+&ect a ball of twine to feel. .7an you ma1e somethin$ else a&&ear . . . [))] somethin$ more com&licated, li1e a million dollars in cash3. Dr" #nderson: .5es.. #nne: .21ay, let*s see it.. Dr" #nderson: .5ou see this is the &roblem with these disco%eries and ca&abilities. If I &roduced a million dollars in cash ri$ht now, you*d ha%e a dilemma. What to do with a million dollars3 7ould you bear to see me ma1e it disa&&ear as easily as I ma1e it a&&ear3.

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#nne: .Are you craCy3 /ince the first moment I met you, I*%e ne%er belie%ed in what you*%e said until now. And I*m not e%en sayin$ I totally belie%e you e%en now, but I*m a hell of a lot closer. I . . . [))] no, &eo&le in $eneral, need to see thin$s with our eyes. We need to belie%e in what our eyes tell us because they )) of all the senses )) seem to ha%e a fi+ on reality. And you*%e finally shown me somethin$ that is tan$ible . . . [))] that my eyes relate to. I*m 0ust as1in$ for one more confirmation of your abilities. I mean, a ball of strin$ doesn*t seem li1e such a hu$e deal . . . [))] not that I*m not im&ressed. But if you could &roduce a million dollars in cash . . . [))] now that*s a hu$e deal.. Dr" #nderson: .And the dilemma3. #nne: .21ay, I ha%e a &ro&osition for you. I*m $oin$ to need to 'uit my 0ob for at least a few months to $et this story out to the &ublic and maybe e%en relocate or mo%e under$round somewhat. What if I 1e&t 0ust . . . N <,<<< to hel& me throu$h the ne+t two months3 7ould that wor1 for you3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, I could do that.. #nne: .I*m now loo1in$ at a loose &ile of N << bills that a&&ear to be &erfect re&licas. I*m touchin$ them . . . a$ain they feel sli$htly warm to the touch, but these would definitely &ass as the real thin$ . . . wow . . . I can*t belie%e it. But this can*t be a million dollars, you only manifested N <,<<< didn*t you3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, $i%e or ta1e a few hundred dollars.. #nne: .5ou do realiCe that you 0ust undermined your own credibility to those who will read this transcri&t. 5ou 0ust made yourself unbelie%able. I*m not e%en sure I should include this because no one will be belie%e it anyway, and it may instead hurt your credibility in all the other areas of our discussion. (his is truly not a belie%able e+&erience unless you see it with your own eyes. What should I do3. Dr" #nderson: .Anne [/arah], whether any one belie%es me isn*t im&ortant. No one belie%es anythin$ anyway unless they e+&erience it, and e%en then, most &eo&le fall bac1 into doubt. Belief is short)li%ed and always 'uestionedJ as it should be. >%en the most de%ote belie%er is in doubt most of the time, re$ardless of what they say. /o don*t worry about whether this im&airs my credibility or not. I don*t care. It doesn*t matter because I*m not tryin$ to con%ince anyone of anythin$. I*m only tryin$ to $et information about the Win$4a1ers to &eo&le who can ma1e their own determination of what is true and belie%able.. #nne: .21ay . . . [))] so much for my concern. It*ll be the last time I worry about your credibility. .If you can manifest money li1e this so easy, why do you need to $et &aid3 I mean who needs money from wor13. Dr" #nderson: .When this technolo$y was disco%ered, it was only shared within the 8abyrinth 9rou&, and it was only used for e+&eriments a&&ro%ed by 6ifteen. (he same &rinci&le would 34

a&&ly to B/( or any other technolo$y disco%ered by the 8abyrinth 9rou& that could be used for &ersonal $ain or benefit.. #nne: .4an, you must be a %ery disci&lined $rou&. I don*t thin1 I could resist.. Dr" #nderson: (he truth is, I*m sure all the members of the 8abyrinth 9rou& ha%e, from time) to)time, e+&erimented with this technolo$y in the &ri%acy of their own homes.. #nne: .Why do you refer to it as a technolo$y3 It seems to me that it*s a mental thin$. 5ou weren*t usin$ anythin$ other than your mind were you3. Dr" #nderson: .It*s a technolo$y only from the stand&oint of understandin$ the mental &rocess. (here*s nothin$ electronic or mechanical if that*s what you mean. But it*s more than mind control. It*s really a belief in 8>?4 and its unerrin$ly &erfect &rocesses of creation )) mo%in$ 'uantum ob0ects from non)s&ace and non)time to the world of matter in our time and s&ace. It*s more closely related to faith than technolo$y . . . [))] as odd as that may sound.. #nne: .Actually, I was fi$urin$ that if Hesus and others who*%e wal1ed the earth could do these thin$s thousands of years a$o, it must not ha%e much to do with technolo$y. But when you see it ha&&en with your own eyes, you ha%e a tendency to thin1 there*s some technolo$y behind the scenes that*s doin$ it. (hat it couldn*t 0ust be a natural &ower of humans . . . [))] that doesn*t seem &ossible to me for some reason.. Dr" #nderson: .I understand, but nonetheless, it*s really a matter of &ers&ecti%e, and once you ha%e the &ers&ecti%e on 8>?4 and it becomes a fundamental construct of your belief system, it becomes amaCin$ly easy to do this. It*s a little li1e a so&histicated o&tical illusion based on a holo$ram that ta1es you se%eral months of concentratin$ to see the &icture that is subtly embedded, but the moment you see it, you can instantly see it the rest of your life without effort. (hat*s how this o&erates. /ome &eo&le can &ic1 it u& in a matter of a few days, others re'uire hundreds of hours, but what e%eryone has in common is that once you $et it, it becomes as natural as breathin$.. #nne: .And you thin1 you could teach me in a matter of a few wee1s, when it too1 some of your collea$ues )) with $enius IKs, I mi$ht add )) hundreds of hours to learn the techni'ue3. Dr" #nderson: .It*s not related to IK. It*s related to understandin$ and belief. (he understandin$ comes from seein$ the e+istence of 8>?4 and understandin$ how it o&erates at its fundamental le%el. Whether you ha%e an a%era$e intelli$ence or are a $enius, it doesn*t matter, so lon$ as you understand and belie%e what you understand.. #nne: ./o how do you $et me to belie%e in 8>?43. Dr" #nderson: .5ou already do dee& inside you. It*s your conscious mind that re0ects your dee&er belief and understandin$. /o I would hel& you to consciously understand what you already 1now at a dee&er le%el of your bein$. And I would do this by showin$ you 8>?4.. #nne: .And how would you do that3. 35

Dr" #nderson: .5ou would need to come to the 8abyrinth 9rou&*s research facility in @ir$inia [/outhern 7alifornia]. It*s the only &lace in the world where I can show you the indis&utable e%idence of 8>?4.. #nne: .Gnder the circumstances, that doesn*t seem li1e a scenario that will e%er ha&&en. (here must be another alternati%e . . . [))] or said another way, what is it that I*d see at this research center that I couldn*t $et somewhere else . . . or throu$h some other means3. Dr" #nderson: .I*m not sayin$ that the only way to ac'uire this ability is by seein$ 8>?4 in action, but it is %ery con%incin$. (he 8abyrinth 9rou& has a technolo$y )) desi$ned by 6ifteen himself )) that 'uite literally enables an indi%idual to e+&erience 8>?4. (here are also the mystical or shamanic means, but these are far less li1ely to occur in a two)wee1 &eriod of time. (hese methods seem inde&endent of circumstance and more de&endent on some dee&er, &redestined or &re)encoded awa1enin$ that the indi%idual is not aware of consciously, but nonetheless tri$$ers an awa1enin$ that causes them to transform their understandin$ by themsel%es. In some instances this awa1enin$ includes an ability to manifest &hysical ob0ects, but $enerally, it*s done without a conscious 1nowled$e of how it*s done. It 0ust wor1s.. #nne: .21ay, so let*s assume I*m not cut out to be a mystic or shaman, what would I see with this technolo$y that would con%ince me of my abilities to do what you 0ust did3. Dr" #nderson: .I can*t really tell you. It*s one of those e+&eriences that words are wholly inade'uate to describe or e+&lain. About all I can tell you is that 8>?4 is e+&erienced throu$h this technolo$y, and it essentially, as a result of the e+&erience, re)wires your internal electrical system. In this &rocess, new circuits are cut in your ner%ous system, and these new circuits enable you to utiliCe 8>?4 as an out$rowth of your e+&erience of it. .I doubt this e+&lanation does you any $ood whatsoe%er. I*%e ne%er tried to e+&lain it before, and I can see by the loo1 on your face that I failed miserably . . . . #nne: .No, it*s not that. I*m 0ust tired of always feelin$ li1e I*%e li%ed on a different &lanet all my life. (hat I*%e missed out on all of this . . . [))] it*s really distressin$ to me when I thin1 about it. .I remember readin$ a bio$ra&hy about >instein and he was 'uoted sayin$ somethin$ li1e we humans only use about 2D [two &ercent] of our intellectual ca&ability. Well, that*s about how I feel ri$ht now. (hat I*%e li%ed my life at about the 2D [two &ercent] le%el )) if that )) and I*m 0ust be$innin$ to see what he meant. I ne%er had a com&arison before now that let me see what the other !8D [ninety)ei$ht &ercent] mi$ht be li1e. It*s not alto$ether &leasant to see what*s been left out or o%erloo1ed . . . [))] or under%alued.. Dr" #nderson: .I understand.. #nne: .2n to somethin$ else. 5ou said earlier that certain technolo$ies li1e 8>?4 and B/( were not allowed to be used for &ersonal $ain by members of the 8abyrinth 9rou&. 5et, if B/( did e+ist, wouldn*t e%eryone line u& and as1 to use it3 I 1now I would. (here are a lot of e%ents in

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my life I*d chan$e if I could. 2nce the cat*s out of the ba$, how could B/( e%er be 1e&t under wra&s3. Dr" #nderson: .8i1e e%erythin$, there are im&lications and moral and ethical considerations that ha%e to be wei$hed. 2ne of the thin$s that 6ifteen and more $enerally the 8abyrinth 9rou& is $ood at, is to consider these im&lications in the broader sco&e of the social order. 6ifteen, from an early a$e, always felt that the technolo$ies of B/( and 8>?4 would only be $ranted to those or$aniCations that would &ro&erly honor the ethical considerations that were elicited by the technolo$y itself. .(his is one of the fundamental charters of the 8abyrinth 9rou&, and all of its members ta1e it %ery seriously. As a new technolo$y is bein$ de%elo&ed, there are always members of the team who are concerned with the ethical im&lications of the technolo$y and are res&onsible for usa$e $uidelines and de&loyment rules. (his is an inte$ral &art of any &ro0ect*s de%elo&ment.. #nne: .(hat*s $ood to hear, but couldn*t such a charter also be used to &re%ent the s&read of these technolo$ies to a broader audience3. Dr" #nderson: .Gn'uestionably. A technolo$y li1e B/( )) once de%elo&ed and tested )) could, in time, become a consumer technolo$y. But as lon$ as the 8abyrinth 9rou& e+ists, it would &rotect B/( from any and all outside forces. Within the 8abyrinth 9rou& there is a committee called the (echnolo$y (ransfer Aro$ram or ((A 7ommittee. (his committee has two missions, one, to assess the incomin$ technolo$ies that are assimilated from >(s, and two, they*re res&onsible for which technolo$ies and in what state of dilution they*re transferred to our &ri%ate industry &artners, N/A, or the military. (he ((A 7ommittee is in control of the &ure)state technolo$ies that are de%elo&ed by the 8abyrinth 9rou&. (hese &ure)state technolo$ies are %irtually ne%er transferred to outside or$aniCations. >%en those staff members in the A7I2 who are not &art of the 8abyrinth 9rou& are unaware of these &ure)state technolo$ies, and when . . . [))]. #nne: .But if I &lace these inter%iew transcri&ts on the Internet or some media &ublication &ic1s u& this story, more than 0ust the A7I2 staff members are $oin$ to 1now about this stuff. Isn*t this $oin$ to screw u& the 8abyrinth 9rou&*s cloa1 of secrecy3. Dr" #nderson: .No. (he 8abyrinth 9rou& is more than a secret or$aniCation. 6or all &ractical &ur&oses, it doesn*t e+ist. (he A7I2 doesn*t e+ist. No one will be able to trace the A7I2 let alone the 8abyrinth 9rou&. (heir security technolo$ies are so %astly su&erior they are com&letely in%ulnerable in this re$ard. Nothin$ I say, or you &ublish, will ma1e them more %ulnerable. As I said before, their only concern will be the &recedent of my defection and how it could create more defections o%er time.. #nne: .Why, why would anyone want to lea%e . . . [))] I mean I understand your case . . . [))] you didn*t want your memories chan$ed or remo%ed. But they don*t commonly do that do they3.

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Dr" #nderson: .Not often, but I*m certainly not the first to be tar$eted to under$o memory im&lant sessions or other forms of in%asi%e security measures. (hey*re all &art of the culture of the 8abyrinth 9rou& and the A7I2. >%eryone who enters either of those worlds, understands what they must sub0ect themsel%es to. It*s %ery clear why the &aranoia must be &art of the culture. But o%er time, certain indi%iduals find it suffocatin$. And these indi%iduals are the ones who are most at ris1 to see my defection as a reason for their own. .I may be entirely wron$ about this, but I belie%e there are <)2< [ten to twenty] indi%iduals who would lea%e the A7I2 or the 8abyrinth 9rou& if they were $i%en the choice without re&ercussions.. #nne: .But I thou$ht you said last ni$ht that these &eo&le were in lo%e with their 0obs because of the s&ecial access to technolo$ies and research labs that were so ad%anced to anythin$ else a%ailable3 If that*s the case, what would they do in normal society3. Dr" #nderson: .I*ll find out. I*ll be the first to e+&erience normal society . . . [))] as a normal &erson.. #nne: .Well, at least you won*t ha%e any &roblem $ettin$ a 0ob . . . [))] what am I sayin$, you won*t e%en need to wor1. I for$ot you can ma1e your own money out of thin air.. Dr" #nderson: .5ou*d be sur&rised to 1now that I li%e a &retty sim&le life. I own a !2* #onda Accord and li%e in a modest three)bedroom home in a suburban nei$hborhood of modest homes .... #nne: .5ou*re 1iddin$3. Dr" #nderson: .No.. #nne: .5ou ma1e NF<<,<<< a year ta+ free and . . . [))] and ha%e a money tree in your mind, and you li%e li1e I do3 If you don*t mind my as1in$, what do you do with all your money3. Dr" #nderson: .I ha%e charities that I contribute to, and the rest I*%e used to set)u& trust funds for causes that are $enerally related to the en%ironment.. .I ha%e blind trusts.. #nne: .Are all the 8abyrinth 9rou& members li1e you3. Dr" #nderson: .5ou mean in re$ard to money and &ossessions3. #nne: .5es.. Dr" #nderson: .4ost li%e at a hi$her standard of li%in$ than I do, but it is &art of our culture to li%e modestly and none of the members li%e a &retentious lifestyle. 6ifteen &ays &eo&le what they*re worth, not because he wants them to throw money around and li%e flamboyantly, but because he wants his collea$ues to be able to donate money to charities of their choice, or build new charities that hel& our local communities. #e*s a bi$ belie%er in this, and he himself, e%en more than I, li%es humbly.. 38

#nne: .I find this really hard to belie%e. I thin1 of 0ust about e%erythin$ you*%e told me so far, this is one of the hardest thin$s to belie%e. I*m totally baffled here . . . . Dr" #nderson: .I can a&&reciate that, but what I*m tellin$ you is the truth. .Initially, the way new &eo&le are recruited to 0oin the A7I2 is lar$ely because of the monetary incenti%es. (hese are e+tremely bri$ht and ca&able &eo&le and could easily secure &ositions in academia or &ri%ate industry ma1in$ N2<<,<<< &er year [, and more]. (he A7I2 lures them by at least doublin$ their salary and offerin$ them lifetime em&loyment contracts. But those who ultimately earn the ri$ht to enter the 2th [twelfth] le%el are then inducted into the 8abyrinth 9rou&, and by the time an indi%idual has risen to this status, money has become increasin$ly unim&ortant . . . [))] &articularly after the 7orteum intelli$ence accelerator e+&erience . . . [))] after the 8>?4 e+&erience, it*s diminished e%en more. .5ou*d &robably find it interestin$ that 6ifteen li%es in a small, three)bedroom home in a re$ular community where the a%era$e &ro&erty %alue is about N2<<,<<<. (hat*s not much of a house by >ast 7oast standards. #is automobile must ha%e at least <<,<<< miles on it, no air conditionin$, and he*s &erfectly content with his situation. New A7I2 recruits are always amaCed at 6ifteen*s thrift . . . [))] I thin1 bewildered is a better way of &uttin$ it. But o%er time, they learn to res&ect him not as an eccentric, but as an e+tremely dedicated $enius who sim&ly li1es to li%e li1e other &eo&le and blend in.. #nne: .21ay . . . [))] I*%e $ot to $et &ersonal here, and I 1now I*%e totally betrayed my a$enda, but you*%e $ot to tell me a few thin$s about . . . [))] well li1e, what do your nei$hbors thin1 you do3. Dr" #nderson: .I don*t 1now my nei$hbors %ery well. I*%e wor1ed 8< [se%enty] hours &er wee1 since I was 8 [ei$hteen] years old. When I socialiCe, it*s $enerally with my collea$ues. (here*s %ery little time for establishin$ other relationshi&s. But to answer you 'uestion directly, I don*t 1now for sure what they thin1 I do . . . [))] I*%e only told them I*m a research scientist for the $o%ernment. 6or most &eo&le that settles their curiosity.. #nne: .But what if you met a woman and fell in lo%e. /he*d want to 1now what you did and how much money you made and so forth . . . [))] what would you tell her3. Dr" #nderson: .I wor1 for the N/A. I*m a research scientist in%ol%ed in lin$uistics and decodin$ [a&&lied chaos theory], and I ma1e N8;,<<< &er year.. #nne: ./o you*d lie3. Dr" #nderson: .It*s &art of the culture of the 8abyrinth 9rou&. We can*t tell the truth, and if we did, the %ast ma0ority of &eo&le would thin1 we were craCy. It*s also why we 1ee& to our own . . . [))] we can tell the truth amon$ oursel%es.. #nne: .When I first heard about the A7I2 and its secret mission, and that you were defectin$ and afraid for your life . . . [))] I thou$ht the A7I2 was an e%il)minded, control)the)world ty&e of or$aniCation. (hen I heard about the 1ind of money you all made and I &ictured a bunch of 39

intellectual snobs dri%in$ bullet)&roof 4ercedes BenCes and li%in$ in &osh mansions . . . and you 0ust dismantled my ima$e. 5ou com&letely destroyed it. /o why are you so afraid3. Dr" #nderson: .(he 8abyrinth 9rou&, because of its connection to the A7I2, is still %ery much connected to the secret networ1 of or$aniCations who control a $reat deal of the world*s monetary and natural resource assets. (his networ1 of or$aniCations will 1now about my defection the instant these materials I*%e $i%en you $ain any %isibility in the &ress or on the Internet. (hey will 1now of its authenticity by sim&ly readin$ these two inter%iews. While there*s nothin$ they can do to the A7I2 or the 8abyrinth 9rou&, they can ma1e my life difficult to li%e. .And they will most definitely try. I 1now all about their technolo$ies and how they de&loy them. I 1now the &eo&le behind these or$aniCations and I 1now how they o&erate. I ha%e 1nowled$e that I*%e only shown you a small fraction of. And this 1nowled$e would ma1e certain indi%iduals )) %ery &owerful indi%iduals )) %ery uncomfortable. It*s e+tremely rare, but when hi$h)le%el o&erati%es defect, they*re hunted li1e do$s until they*re found and dis&osed of, or, if they ser%e an on$oin$ &ur&ose, their memories are selecti%ely wi&ed clean. It*s one of the unfortunate realities of ha%in$ dealt with these or$aniCations.. #nne: .But you were 0ust a scientist . . . [))] a lin$uist, for 9od*s sa1e. #ow does that ma1e you a threat to these secret or$aniCations3. Dr" #nderson: .I was the one that created the underlyin$ encry&tion technolo$y for their security system that o%erlays their &redicti%e modelin$ software for the world*s stoc1 e+chan$es. I may be a sim&le scientist in your eyes, but my talents for lin$uistics is not the only talent I &ossess. I*m also $ifted in the field of encry&tion. And within the world of economics, I*m sim&ly the best. And this talent was $i%en to certain or$aniCations to hel& them, and in the &rocess of doin$ so, I learned about these or$aniCations and how they o&erate. It ma1es me a security ris1.. #nne: .Why3 I mean if the A7I2 and 8abyrinth 9rou& ha%e so much money . . . [))] why wor1 with these e%il $rou&s3. Dr" #nderson: .6irst of all, they*re not e%il. (hese or$aniCations consist of well)educated elitists who*re self)absorbed &erha&s, but not e%il. (hey loo1 at the world as a biolo$ical e+&erience where the stron$ sur%i%e, the &owerful thri%e, and the secreti%e control. (hey li1e bein$ in control of the e+&erience. (hey are the ultimate control frea1s, but not for the sa1e of adoration or e$o)$ratification, but for the sa1e that they $enuinely belie%e they*re the best at ma1in$ &olicy decisions that effect the world*s economy and security. ./o, don*t [Don*t] confuse control with e%il intent. It*s not necessarily one and the same thin$. (hat*s the $ame they choose to &lay. (he fact that they ma1e incredible sums of money, is sim&ly &art of the $ame, but it*s not the reason they sit in the dri%er*s seat of the world*s economy . . . [))] they sim&ly want to &rotect their life*s a$enda li1e anyone else would. It*s 0ust that they*re in the &osition to actually do it. (hey $et their security from bein$ at the to& of the economic food)chain..

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#nne: .But they*re mani&ulatin$ &eo&le and 1ee&in$ information from them. If this isn*t e%il, what is3. Dr" #nderson: .By your definition, our national $o%ernment, our local $o%ernment, %irtually e%ery business and or$aniCation, is e%il. >%eryone mani&ulates and 1ee&s information hidden. 9o%ernments, or$aniCations, and indi%iduals.. #nne: .5ou*re twistin$ my words. It*s a matter of de$ree isn*t it3 I mean, it*s one thin$ if I don*t tell you my true hair color, and it*s another thin$ if, as &art of this secret networ1, I withhold information about how I*m mani&ulatin$ the world economy. (hey*re entirely different in scale. 5ou can*t com&are them. I still thin1 it*s e%il when or$aniCations mani&ulate and control thin$s for their own $ain.. Dr" #nderson: .Belie%e me, I didn*t set out to be the defender of these or$aniCations, but you need to understand this because it*s im&ortant and it may effect you in the days ahead. (his secret networ1 of &owerful or$aniCations are more ali$ned with the $oals of the 8abyrinth 9rou& than our world*s $o%ernments, and, in &articular, our military leaders. If you*re worried about anythin$, you would be well ad%ised to worry more about the administration, 7on$ress, and the De&artment of Defense . . . not only in the Gnited /tates, but in e%ery country.. #nne: .#ow can you say that3 Are you sayin$ that our $o%ernment and military leaders are tryin$ to cause us harm and these secret, mani&ulati%e or$aniCations are tryin$ to hel& us3. Dr" #nderson: .I*m sayin$ that the leadershi& in the world*s community of nations is ine&t, and can be bou$ht with the holy dollar. And that it*s not the secret networ1 that I*%e been tal1in$ about who*s mani&ulatin$ our $o%ernment and military leadershi& to in%est hu$e amounts of money in destructi%e forces li1e nuclear and biolo$ical wea&ons. (his, they*re decidin$ on their own. (he secret or$aniCations that I*m &ointin$ the fin$er at are o&&osed to these military build) u&s because they inter0ect a de$ree of uncertainty in their models for controllin$ economic and social order. .(he &oliticians and military leaders are the ones who*re in%estin$ time, ener$y, and money in wea&ons of mass destruction, and these, if there is such a thin$ as e%il, are it.. #nne: .21ay. I see your &oint. But you im&lied that these secret or$aniCations would try and 1ill us if we &ublished and distributed all of this3 I still don*t see how that ma1es them so noble.. Dr" #nderson: .I don*t thin1 you ha%e to be concerned about these secret or$aniCations. 5ou don*t 1now enou$h to be dan$erous to them. Besides, they*re used to 0ournalists snoo&in$ around and tryin$ to e+&ose them. None ha%e succeeded in any meanin$ful way. DoCens of boo1s ha%e been written about them. /o they*re not $oin$ to bother you. (heir interest will be in me and me alone. It*s one of the reasons why I*m careful in what I tell you. I 1now they*ll read these transcri&ts[,] as will the N/A, 7IA, A7I2, and the entire 8abyrinth 9rou&. I*m allowin$ you to record these con%ersations because I 1now who will hear these e+act words, and I want them to 1now &recisely what I ha%e shared with you, and throu$h you, to others.

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.I*m not ma1in$ a %alue 0ud$ment as to whether these secret or$aniCations are noble or not. I*m merely &ointin$ out that they*re not the ones wastin$ hu$e sums of money and intellectual ca&ital on wea&ons of mass destruction. (hey*re si$nificantly more com&etent to rule than our &oliticians and military leaders are. And this is sim&ly my o&inion.. #nne: .I still don*t $et it. If the 8abyrinth 9rou&, the A7I2 and this secret networ1 of or$aniCations are all so noble and bene%olent, why are you afraid for your life3 And why are they hidin$ from the &ublic li1e coc1roaches3. Dr" #nderson: .(o answer your first 'uestion, I fear for my life because I 1now information that could cause irre&arable harm to a %ariety of secret or$aniCations . . . thou$h I ha%e no intention to do so.. #nne: .But sim&ly because you 1now these thin$s they*ll hunt you down and 1ill you3 /ounds li1e a nice $rou& to me. 7ertainly not e%il . . . . Dr" #nderson: ?emember . . . [))] they*re control frea1s. (hey don*t li1e ha%in$ anyone loose who could cause them &otential harm. If I wanted to, I could brin$ them down. I 1now that much about their com&uter al$orithms and encry&tion technolo$ies.. #nne: .But how would you $et access to their system. It would seem to me that you*d be &lacin$ yourself in $reat 0eo&ardy if you tried to $et into their system.. Dr" #nderson: .I don*t need to $et into their system to cause them harm, I need to $et into their system to &re%ent harm. (hey will in%ite me into their system.. #nne: .I don*t understand . . . . Dr" #nderson: .When I de%elo&ed the system initially, there were certain time)delayed al$orithms that were scri&ted to occur at s&ecific times, and if they were not maintained accordin$ly, the &ro$ram would essentially self)destruct. /omethin$ that these or$aniCations cannot afford to ha&&en.. #nne: .Why did they a$ree to this3. Dr" #nderson: .It*s &art of the fee that the 8abyrinth 9rou& e+tracts from its clients. 4ore im&ortantly, it ensures that our technolo$ies )) e%en in their diluted states )) are o&erated accordin$ to our a$reement and not misused. I ha%e the access codes for this system and the maintenance 1ey that will &re%ent it from crashin$. I*%e made certain that I*m the only one who has this 1nowled$e.. #nne: .5ou*re tellin$ me that with all those &hoto$ra&hic memories runnin$ around at the 8abyrinth 9rou&, that you*re the only one who 1nows the code3. Dr" #nderson: .I didn*t e+actly re&ort the ri$ht number when I did my last u&date of their system . . . [))] so, yes, I*m the only one who 1nows the correct code. I desi$ned it that way to ensure my safety . . . [))] . 42

#nne: .But with all the $eniuses in the 8abyrinth 9rou&, you*re tellin$ me that they can*t sol%e this &roblem themsel%es3. Dr" #nderson: .Not without a si$nificant amount of time . . . [))] which is somethin$ 6ifteen won*t a$ree to do. It*s too wasteful and a ma0or distraction to B/( research.. #nne: .Do they already 1now about this3. Dr" #nderson: .2h, yes. I informed them shortly after I defected.. #nne: .(hey must ha%e been &issed.. Dr" #nderson: .It wasn*t a &leasant con%ersation to &ut it mildly.. #nne: .I was thin1in$ about all of this so&histicated technolo$y that the 8abyrinth 9rou& has, but I don*t understand somethin$. #ow do you manufacture it3 I assume Intel isn*t doin$ the manufacturin$. ?i$ht3. Dr" #nderson: .7orrect. (here*s no one on this &lanet that can manufacture these technolo$ies. (hey*re all based u&on the 7orteum technolo$y )) which is about ;< $enerations ahead of our best com&uter technolo$ies here on earth. 6or e+am&le, the 8>?4 &ro0ect used only one domestic technolo$y in the total array of about 2<< different technolo$ies, and it was a relati%ely insi$nificant &art of the &ro0ect . . . . #nne: .What was it3. Dr" #nderson: .It*s a deri%ati%e of a laser telemetry technolo$y that the A7I2 de%elo&ed about 2< years a$o, but it filled the s&ecific needs of the 8>?4 &ro0ect because it was based on analo$ &rotocols which were re'uired for the a&&lication in that s&ecific &art of the e+&eriment.. #nne: ./o the 7orteum &erforms all the manufacturin$ of what the 8abyrinth 9rou& desi$ns. What if the 7orteum decide, for whate%er reason, not to share these technolo$ies all of sudden3 Wouldn*t the 8abyrinth 9rou& cease to e+ist3. Dr" #nderson: .Aerha&s. But 6ifteen is shrewd and he*s &ut certain contin$encies in &lace to hel& ensure nothin$ li1e that would e%er ha&&en. Bear in mind, that the 7orteum are at least as moti%ated as we are to de%elo& this technolo$y, &erha&s more. (hey ha%e tremendous res&ect for 6ifteen as well as the other human contin$ent of the 8abyrinth 9rou&. #owe%er, when the 8abyrinth 9rou& was first formed, 6ifteen ne$otiated with the 7orteum to share all source code for the &ro0ects that came out of B/( research. All base technolo$ies were re&licated in two se&arate research labs. (here*s com&lete redundancy ri$ht down to the &ower su&&lies.. #nne: .Won*t the leaders of these secret or$aniCations try and &ressure 6ifteen to find you . . . [))] with their remote %iewin$ technolo$y, can*t they find you easily3. Dr" #nderson: .(he leaders of these secret or$aniCations well 1now they ha%e no le%era$e with 6ifteen. After they read this information, they will 1now they ha%e e%en less le%era$e. 43

6ifteen and the 8abyrinth 9rou& desi$ned and de%elo&ed all of their security systems. >%ery last one. (hey 1new they had to be indebted to the 8abyrinth 9rou& for certain technolo$ies that made them )) s&ea1in$ meta&horically )) in%isible. 6ifteen cannot be &ressured. In fact, it*s 0ust the o&&osite, 6ifteen can &ressure them[,] . . . thou$h he ne%er would. (o 6ifteen, these or$aniCations sim&ly re&resent the best alternati%e to lettin$ our own $o%ernments ta1e control of the economic en$ines and social order of the world infrastructure. #ence, he sym&athiCes with them and tries to hel& them to the e+tent he can afford the time and ener$y.. #nne: ./o how will you hide from them3. Dr" #nderson: .I be$an this &rocess of defection nearly a year a$o. As I told you before, I be$an to systematically disentan$le myself from the A7I2*s in%asi%e security &recautions[,] . . . which include electronic sensors im&lanted underneath the s1in in the bac1 of the nec1. I effecti%ely stri&&ed myself of these de%ices so I*d ha%e a chance of remainin$ under$round until a reasonable solution could be ne$otiated.. [ The !ollowing se tion was inserted ] [ /arah= .But you said they had ?@ technolo$y that can locate you. What about this3. Dr. Neruda= .(here*s little doubt that they will try this, but it*s not an e+act science. An ?@ could see this room, but not ha%e a clue as to how to find it. (hey mi$ht be able to 1ey in on a &articular ob0ect )) li1e that cloc1, for e+am&le )) but unless it was the only cloc1 of its 1ind and they could trace its location, it wouldn*t hel& them.. /arah= .Is there anythin$ I should be worried about, then3. Dr. Neruda= .I thin1 we need to mo%e around a bit, and %ary our meetin$ time and &lace. We should conduct the ne+t inter%iew in a new en%ironment )) &erha&s outdoors. /omethin$ $eneric without landmar1s.. /arah= ./o they can*t read my street si$n and then loo1 at my house*s address )) I mean if they were doin$ an ?@ session ri$ht now3. Dr. Neruda= .(hey would try, and it*s &ossible they*d be successful, but not li1ely. /arah= .I suddenly $ot %ery ner%ous. 5ou*re not ma1in$ me feel comfortable with this.. Dr. Neruda= .I can only be honest.. /arah= .What would they do with me and my dau$hter if they found us3. Dr. Neruda= .I thin1 you could assume that they*d &erform an 4?A of the entire e+&erience of meetin$ me.. /arah= .(hey wouldn*t 1ill us3.

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Dr. Neruda= .I don*t thin1 so. 6ifteen doesn*t resort to %iolence unless it*s absolutely necessary.. /arah= ./hit. I wish I 1new about this before I a$reed to $et my dau$hter and I in%ol%ed. Hust tell me one thin$J do you 1now when they*re doin$ an ?@ session3 I mean, can you feel it or anythin$3. Dr. Neruda= .I can sense it, but it*s not somethin$ that*s absolute.. /arah= .Is there any defense a$ainst it3. Dr. Neruda= .None.. /arah= ./o all we do is ho&e that their damn ?@ is incom&etent3. Dr. Neruda= .I*ll only stay for short &eriods of time, and it*ll be late at ni$ht when they*re far less li1ely to &erform an ?@ session. It*d be a $ood &ractice to %ary our meetin$ &lace, as I su$$ested before. 2ther than that, I don*t 1now what more we can do.. ] #nne: .I assume there*s nothin$ the &olice or 6BI could do to hel&3. Dr" #nderson: .Nothin$ that I*m interested in.. #nne: .But what will you do to &rotect yourself3. Dr" #nderson: .As you can ima$ine, Anne [/arah], there*s certain information I can*t share with you $i%en the nature of these inter%iews. (his is one instance I can*t tell you more than I already ha%e.. #nne: .Are you able to stay lon$er because I still ha%e some more 'uestions3. Dr" #nderson: .I can stay s lon$ as you li1e toni$ht.. #nne: .9ood, I don* t thin1 it*ll ta1e much lon$er. .I*d li1e to $o all the bac1 to the Win$4a1ers a$ain. I*m not usually so scattered by the way. It*s 0ust that you*re tellin$ me thin$s that $et me $oin$ in a hundred directions at once and I can*t 1ee& myself focused. /orry . . . .Any rate, tell me more about your e+&eriences with the Win$4a1ers. 5ou said earlier that you had %isitations with them . . . ri$ht3. Dr" #nderson: .5es.. #nne: ./o what were they li1e and what did they tell you3*

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Dr" #nderson: .Well I su&&ose the best way to describe them is that they were li1e a lucid dream. (he first time I actually interacted with them, I was ta1in$ a catna& at the lab and I suddenly wo1e u& li1e someone had ta&&ed me on the shoulder to awa1en me, and when I turned around, there was no one there. I shru$$ed it off as a dream, and went bac1 to my na&. (he ne+t thin$ I remembered I wo1e u& and saw two luminous ob0ects about the siCe of a human bein$ and with the $eneral a&&earance of a body . . . thou$h they were too bri$ht for me to loo1 directly at them . . . so I wasn*t really sure of their a&&earance initially. .(he li$ht had a rhythmic &ulsin$ 'uality to it and this &ulsin$ seemed to entrain my own consciousness. It was li1e . . . li1e feelin$ somethin$ that was e+tremely &owerful, but e'ually $entle at the same time... the di&ole effect was %ery unusual. I had no fear of these ob0ects emotionally, but mentally I felt at odds with my trust, as if I should feel fear. I must*%e remained semi)conscious of this e+&erience for maybe ten seconds or so, and then I felt my mind become lin1ed to the mind of these bein$s. .(hey told me they were Win$4a1ers and that they had entered my time to hel& me. (hey were only interested in unloc1in$ their coded messa$es because they felt that their time ca&sule had fallen into $ood hands. (hey encoded their messa$es for two reasons= one, to ensure security of their time ca&sule and its contents, and two, to ma1e certain that the ones who disco%er it will ser%e the Win$4a1ers* a$enda and not their own.. #nne: ./o are you sayin$ they felt that the 8abyrinth 9rou& was not $oin$ to a&&ly their own a$enda3 If that*s the case, I don*t these Win$4a1ers ha%e much insi$ht into the 8abyrinth 9rou&.. Dr" #nderson: .>+ce&t for one small issue. (he Win$4a1ers are the 8abyrinth 9rou& . . . only ";< years in the future.. #nne: .5ou*re 1iddin$. #ow could that be3. Dr" #nderson: .(hat*s almost e+actly what I said at the time, only it was e+&ressed with more amaCement. We had considered the &ossibility as one of our early hy&otheses, but it was ne%er ta1en that seriously because we ne%er had &roof or e%idence other than symbolic re&resentations. .Anyway, that was essentially what they wanted to communicate to me in that first conscious interaction. (hey, for whate%er reason, had chosen me to be their liaison and were intent on hel&in$ me brin$ the contents of their time ca&sule to the &ublic domain, and more s&ecifically, to the Internet. (hat was the essence of their instruction. ./o when . . . . #nne: .I still don*t understand how they could re&resent the 8abyrinth 9rou& . . . If they ha%e B/( then why not hand it o%er li1e I said before3 What*s their concern3. Dr" #nderson: .8i1e most thin$s concernin$ B/(, you ha%e to unlearn all of your con%entional &rece&ts about how thin$s wor1 before you can understand the nature of B/(. 46

.(he Win$4a1ers are the result of a whole new e%olution of human1ind. (hey*re not time) bound. (hey*re able to se&arate their &hysical and non)&hysical sel%es and, in the latter state, tra%el across %ertical time and interact with it. I*m not sure that it*s e+actly the form of B/( that 6ifteen has in mind . . . it*s seems more li1e bi)location e+ce&t in different time &eriods instead of s&ace. While in the forei$n time they can re)materialiCe their &hysical bodies and interact with the &hysical en%ironment if they choose. (hey can e%en brin$ ob0ects with them and transfer these ob0ects to the forei$n time, as they did in the case of the Ancient Arrow site. .But to $i%e B/(, or any as&ect of it, to any indi%idual, or$aniCation, or $o%ernment, you first ha%e to com&letely understand them and throu$h that understandin$, trust them. (hat ta1es time and obser%ational e+&erience. It also ta1es testin$. And I thin1 that*s what the Win$4a1ers are doin$ with their time ca&sules. (hey*re testin$ the 8abyrinth 9rou&, and 6ifteen in &articular, to see what his true intentions are.. #nne: .I 1now this is $oin$ to sound li1e a tan$led u& 'uestion, but the Win$4a1ers are ";< years ahead of us. ?i$ht3. Dr" #nderson: .5es.. #nne: .And in their future, they re&resent the 8abyrinth 9rou&. ?i$ht3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, that*s ri$ht.. #nne: .And they don*t trust the current membershi& andOor leadershi& of the 8abyrinth 9rou&. ?i$ht3. Dr" #nderson: .A&&arently not enou$h to sim&ly hand o%er their technolo$ies.. #nne: ./o that*s why they*%e &laced their 1nowled$e of B/( inside se%en time ca&sules and &lanted them inside or underneath roc1 formations or where%er. But I read in one of the A7I2 memos or . . . maybe you told me . . . that the final time ca&sule wouldn*t be disco%ered until the year 2<2:. And that*s after the ta1eo%er bid by this hostile alien force. It doesn*t ma1e sense.. Dr" #nderson: .I understand your line of 'uestionin$. Gnfortunately, my interactions with the Win$4a1ers ha%e been on different to&ics so far. Aerha&s later I*ll learn more about their &lan as far as the 2< 8 elections and hostile ta1eo%ers are concerned. I*%e only had three interactions with them thus far, and all three ha%e been brief encounters, and mostly one)way communication . . . they communicatin$ messa$es to me.. #nne: .I*m feelin$ the need to brin$ this session to an end. 4y mind is 'uite literally filled to the brim. I thin1 if you told me anythin$ &rofound ri$ht now, it*d 0ust $o in one ear and out the other. 7an we meet a$ain on Wednesday [(uesday] and &erha&s &ic1)u& on these sessions you*%e had with the Win$4a1ers then [where we left off toni$ht]3. Dr" #nderson: .5es, that*s fine with my schedule..

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#nne: .21ay. /i$nin$ off for toni$ht. >nd of /ession

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