On Postmodernism and Popular Culture

Reading the signs of the times from the American mass media, a Protestant theologian sees new opportunities for evangelization among young people who have lost confidence in the ideals of the Enlightenment. Interview by Francis X. Maier Jan. 07, 00 !tanley "renz is Pioneer #ac$onald Professor of %aptist &eritage, 'heology, and Ethics at (arey 'heological (ollege, and professor of theology and ethics at Regent (ollege in )ancouver, %ritish (olum*ia. &e is the author and co+author of numerous *oo,s, including most recently, A Primer on Postmodernism. -n his Primer, "renz charts the themes of late 0th century culture in television, art, popular music, fiction, and architecture. &e e.amines the spirit *ehind today/s youngsters in the age group that has *een du**ed 0"eneration 120 and he outlines the challenges and opportunities facing all (hristians in preaching the "ospel as the millennium draws to a close. &e spo,e with (3R recently from his home in (anada. 44444 3hy should the average (hristian on the street++of whatever denomination++give two hoots a*out an issue li,e 0postmodernism05 !tanley "renz6 7irst, *ecause everyone/s *eing influenced *y it, if only through osmosis. 3e live in a world that is increasingly postmodern in its ethos, and we/re therefore *ecoming postmodern whether we li,e it or not. !econd, we have the tas, of connecting the "ospel with the culture in which we live, the human environment "od has called us to serve. 3e need to understand the culture around us if we/re going to *etter live and witness the "ospel. 8n a practical level, what are the implications of postmodernism for *elievers in the late 9::0s5 "renz6 -n the past, on university campuses in the late 9:;0s, the ,ey <uestion was, 0&ow do - ,now -/m right50 3e *elieved that if we assem*led the right arguments and answers, we could persuade others to *ecome (hristians. 'oday, in the postmodern conte.t, *eing 0right0 in that sense is no longer impressive to people. 'hey/re loo,ing for other things++such as, 0&ow do - ,now that - can *elong50 -t *ehooves us to understand that ,ind of <uestion *efore we can answer it. 0!tar 're,0 is one of the great popular icons of =! culture. >ou *egin your *oo,, rather surprisingly, *y comparing the themes and spirit of the two television series6 0!tar 're,0 in the 9:;0s, and 0!tar 're,6 'he ?e.t "eneration0 in the 9:@0s and 9::0s. 3hy5 "renz6 "ene Rodden*erry, who created the original 0!tar 're,0 and to this day remains the patron saint of the 0!tar 're,0 se<uels, had an agenda. &e did not *elieve in "od and did not *elieve religion was finally important. !o he gave us a series, in the original 0!tar 're,,0 that was, in its assumptions, the ape. of modernity at wor,. As a character, !cience 8fficer !poc, is <uintessentially 0modern0++completely rational, with incredi*le powers of o*servation and deductive reasoning, always with his emotions in chec,, and he uses his reasoning to dispel ignorance, solve pro*lems, and so forth. %y the time we come to 0!tar 're,6 'he ?e.t "eneration0 0 years later, the ground has shifted, and the creators of the series introduce themes that are <uite distinctively different. -n 0'he ?e.t "eneration,0 we find a character similar to !poc, named $ata, who also has superior powers of reasoning. %ut rather than *eing portrayed as a transcendental ideal, $ata is in fact an android, a su*human machine, a computer. And he/s only one of several characters in the cast who solve pro*lems. 'hat shift++from rationality as the

ideal to rationality, ta,en *y itself, *eing su*human++is significant. -t/s the change from a modern to a postmodern outloo,. !o 0'he ?e.t "eneration0 is more sympathetic to issues li,e religion5 "renz6 -f you loo, at the progression from 0!tar 're,0 to 0'he ?e.t "eneration,0 and then to the su*se<uent series in the 0!tar 're,0 family, 0$eep !pace ?ine0 and most recently 0)oyager,0 you see a growing sociological understanding of religion++e.g., religious myth as an important force in culture+ formation. And finally you see an ac,nowledgement that medical science and science itself simply cannot give us all the answers we need, and therefore there must *e room for personal commitment and *elief. 'hat/s the last word from 0!tar 're,0 so far. -t was in a recent 0)oyager0 episode. #ost people e<uate the idea of 0modern0 with current or up+to+date. 'hat/s not really what you mean, though, in discussing modernism and its aftermath. "renz6 ?o. ?or am - tal,ing a*out the modernist theological movement that many churches had to deal with earlier this century. 3hen - spea, a*out modernism, - mean the mindset that had its *eginnings *ac, in the Renaissance, *ut came fully to the fore in the Enlightenment, the 97th and 9@th centuries, called the Age of Reason. -t involved an attempt to get *eyond the dogmatic differences among the various (hristian denominations *y setting up human reason as the final ar*iter of truth. 8nly those things that could *e demonstrated *y human reason would *e accepted. -t also involved the depersonalization of "od through deism. "renz6 Right. $ogmatic assertions, li,e a triune "od, were tossed out of court, *ut the ,ind of "od who creates the universe the way a watchma,er ma,es a watch++to use one e.ample from the Enlightenment++ that would *e 8A. 'hese ideas, interestingly enough, stand *ehind the $eclaration of -ndependence and the =! (onstitution, *ecause of the role the deists played in the founding of the American nation. 'wo names stand out in particular in forming the modern mindset. 'he first is the 97th+century philosopher, Rene $escartes, who *uilt on the dictum 0(ogito, ergo sum0++0- thin,, therefore - am0++to define the human person as an autonomous thin,ing self2 in effect. to ma,e the thin,ing self the center of the universe. 'he other is !ir -saac ?ewton, the great %ritish physicist, who thought he could define the whole universe following a mechanistic model. 7rom these two thin,ers, and others li,e them, we/ve come to understand the human person as a rational self who approaches the world as something 0out there0 a*out which we see, to gain ,nowledge. And we define ,nowledge as something rational, o*Bective, certain, and fundamentally good. -t is *etter to ,now than not to ,now. 3e live our lives see,ing to amass ,nowledge, so that we can create a *etter environment for ourselves and control the world so that we can have it there as an o*Bect for us. 'hat/s the genesis of modernism, the genius of the 0modern proBect,0 which we see wor,ing its way out in the great technological society we all enBoy. -s it fair to say that modernism, precisely *ecause of its nature, tends to o*Bectify everything under o*servation5 "renz6 Right. #odernism assumes that all ,nowledge of the world is ,nowledge of an o*Bect. 3e are not participants. 3e come as neutral o*servers. 3e see, to descri*e the world and figure out the laws that ma,e it wor,.

-n politics, a num*er of thin,ers have argued that this modern, rational approach reached its conclusion in the totalitarian regimes of this century, which o*Bectified the human person to the e.treme. 'hat/s de*ata*le. >ou can certainly ma,e a case that ?azism and !talinism are the political wor,ings+out of Enlightenment assumptions. %ut the Enlightenment could ta,e you in another direction as well6 democratic li*eralism, in which every person is seen as a political unit for himself, and society then *ecomes an aggregate of these individual players and appetites. 3hy the sea change, and when did it *egin5 "renz6 'he modern proBect has *een under attac, almost from the *eginning. -n the 9:th century we find the Romantic movement, which was a reaction against it and which gave *irth to ?ietzsche, who is really, in a sense, the patron saint of postmodernism. %ut a full+*lown attac, on modernism didn/t really *egin until the early 9:70s. -t came from a variety of sources, *ut at the heart of it was a sense that the assumptions of modernism were *an,rupt. -n other words, if we define the human person as a primarily rational su*Bect manipulating an o*Bective world, we/re lopping off other important dimensions of what it means to *e human6 emotions, a sense of humor, the a*ility to dream. 'he truth is, we are not merely isolated, autonomous units. 3e participate in the world, and most crucially, we are participants in communities which shape and form us. !o is this shift to a 0postmodern0perspective good news or *ad news for someone who wants to preach the "ospel5 -f you loo, at American popular culture at the moment, how do you read the paranoia of shows li,e 0'he 1+7iles0 or 0$ar, !,ies05 'he worldview of "eneration 1 seems pretty cynical, pretty dar,. "renz6 0"en 10 young people are the first American generation to sincerely *elieve that their lot in life will not *e as good as their parents. =ntil "en 1, every new generation in this country has *een convinced that economically and in other ways, life will improve. 'he %a*y %oomers lived through the threat of nuclear war, and that affected them, *ut "eneration 1 is inheriting a world where, Bust as the nuclear threat is finally waning, all sorts of new catastrophes seem to *e pending++economic, ecological, etc. !o as a result, popular culture is now deeply cynical toward the a*ility of human reason, human progress, to ma,e the world a *etter place. 'his, of course, was the driving idea of modernism. -s that good for the "ospel5 -t/s a mi.ed *ag. %ut for people stuc, in cynicism and hopelessness, the (hristian message that the world has meaning, that the world is going somewhere, can *e incredi*ly powerful and hope+filled. %ut precisely *ecause (hristianity gave *irth to the Renaissance and, in a sense, set the stage for the Enlightenment, hasn/t it also *een a target of this cynicism5 "renz6 $efinitely. 3e see all around us a flourishing of cults and sects and the ?ew Age movement, and a resurgence of -slam, *ut the (hristian message hasn/t seemed to *enefit in <uite the same way. "renz6 -n the 3est, (hristianity was seen as part of the esta*lishment, as part of the progressivism of modernity. !o when modernity is called into <uestion, so also in the (hristian faith. 'hus the idea that we live in a 0post+(hristian0 conte.t. %ut this is Bust another reason for (hristians to interact more vitally with our culture. #uch of what is *eing dismissed today in the (hristian message is an adulteration of the "ospel. -t *ecomes our Bo* to recover the neglected elements of the "ospel as a living message and offer it persuasively as the only answer for contemporary culture. Cet/s tal, a*out the 3ord of "od for a moment. -/m thin,ing of great passages li,e 0'he 3ord was made flesh,0 and 0-n the *eginning was the 3ord.0 &ow do you preach !cripture to a culture dominated *y

thin,ers li,e Jac<ues $errida++scholars who specialize in deconstructing and relativizing language, who argue that no words mean what you thin, they mean5 "renz6 -n the past, we/ve tended to present the 3ord of "od as a series of doctrinal propositions. -f we gave assent to them, we/d *e on our way to heaven. %ut in a postmodern conte.t crying out for relationship and *elonging and hope, you can/t approach people with a message of, 0&ere are the doctrines you have to *elieve.0 $octrines are important, o*viously, *ut they/re not the foundation. >ou have to call people into relationship, into community with "od in (hrist. 'o the postmodern heart, the fact that the 03ord *ecame flesh,0 that the 3ord of "od is a person, is a much more compelling message. "od reconciled the world to himself in (hrist and created the community of disciples. 3hat are the *iggest challenges and opportunities facing the (hristian faith in today/s climate5 "renz6 'he 7rench thin,er Ceotard is one of the gurus of the postmodern mindset. &e descri*ed the spirit of the age as incredulity in the face of all meta+narratives. 3hat that means, plainly put, is that postmoderns tend to reBect the idea that any message can *e meant for all humanity. !o postmoderns are perfectly happy to allow (hristians to have their own little story e.plaining the world. %ut they get very nervous when (hristians claim that Jesus came for all times and cultures and peoples. 'hat/s our *iggest challenge6 not disproving other religions or the good things in the world, *ut showing how they allset the stage for, or flow into, the greater universal truth that Jesus (hrist is for all human,ind. As for opportunities, the first is that we don/t have to fear tal,ing a*out faith anymore. !pirituality is on the front page of 'ime magazine and throughout the mass media. -t/s not li,e D0 years ago, when the fundamental issues were faith vs. atheism and the dominance of the scientific mindset. People today are very willing to tal, a*out religion and spirituality. 'he second opportunity is today/s hunger for *elonging and community. >ou see it everywhere, including popular ') shows li,e 0!einfeld0 or 07riends0++the former is a*out %oomers, the latter a*out "en 1, *ut *oth are a*out *ro,enness and how to cope with it. 3hat are the strengths and wea,nesses of the various (hristian traditions in facing the postmodern terrain5 "renz6 8ne of the wea,nesses of the Evangelical e.perience, or at least Evangelical scholars, has *een our tendency to reduce faith to a set of propositions that we try to get people to assent to. Another is the radical individualism of our emphasis on conversion. 3e place a lot of stress on 0my0 conversion, 0my0 relationship with Jesus (hrist. 8n the other hand, the theme of conversion is also one of Evangelicalism/s particular strengths, *ecause as we each *egin to tell our individual stories of conversion, we can see that they all have the same *asic plot line. 8ur personal responses to the "ospel can *ring us into community *ecause we share this unifying e.perience and dimension of our faith right from the start. Another strength would *e Evangelicalism/s readiness to articulate *i*lical truths in whatever conte.t it finds itself. (atholics have certainly recovered the importance of a personal encounter with !cripture in recent years, as well as a willingness to tal, openly a*out their personal relationship with Jesus (hrist. !ome of that would *e tracea*le to the witness provided *y Evangelicals. "renz6 >es, - thin, so. 3hat a*out the (atholic emphasis on liturgy, sacrament art, music6 these seem to *e particular strengths of the (atholic tradition. 'hey/re very powerful forms of non+ver*al communication.

"renz6 - would agree with that. %ut - thin, the longstanding and very rich tradition of spirituality in the (atholic tradition is another gift (atholics offer to other (hristians. Another is your focus on the fact that you are *ut the contemporary em*odiment of a community and message that transcend the ages and are for all people in all times. 'hat focus has *een less attended to in the Evangelical tradition. And finally, (atholics have ,ept alive the idea of mystery. 'here are two different strains in (atholic tradition6 the rational, that results in the definition of a *ody of dogma, and simultaneously, the mysterious. 'hat sense of mystery is a great value. &ow will the emergence of today/s new communications technologies impact impact the contact and delivery of the (hristian message5 "renz6 'he advent of the screen in all its different forms++computer, cinema, television++fundamentally changes the way we loo, at the world, and if that fact leads to a fracturing of our personal identity, then it presents some great and grave opportunities for the "ospel. 'he (hristian tradition, in all its denominational e.pressions, has always argued that our final identity is found *eyond ourselves in our relationship with Jesus (hrist. 'o a culture of people who don/t ,now who they are, or who thin, they can ma,e themselves into whoever they want to *e++insofar as that leads to fragmentation, the "ospel declaration that we are one in Jesus (hrist will *e increasingly powerful. 3hat/s *een stri,ing throughout this conversation is your lac, of pessimism. 3hy is that5 "renz6 %ecause -/m not ashamed of the "ospel. -t is the power of "od unto salvation. -f we loo, at history, the "ospel has gone out with power in every generation, and if that/s the case, it will go out with power in the postmodern world as well++not *ecause of who we are, *ut *ecause "od is the lord of history. &istory is, in the end, 0&is +story,0 and we are *ut the vehicles of the wor, of the &oly !pirit in proclaiming the "ood ?ews to the culture into which "od has placed us. !o you/re not afraid as we approach the millennium. "renz6 8n the contrary, -/m e.cited. "od has seen fit to place us here at e.actly this moment and to invite us to participate with him in his great plan for human,ind. - wouldn/t want to *e alive at any other time in history than right now. EA='&8R -$F 7rancis 1. #aier is director of communications for the Archdiocese of $enver, (olorado. 'his interview is condensed and adapted from its audio original2 to listen to the full RealAudio version, go to http6GGwww.archden.orgGarchden on the 3orld 3ide 3e*.