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Story about the combination WANHAN WUOREN NAISEN TUOKSU
(Poeme) x BRONCE HUATUNTUPAC (Bruce) . The breeder of Bronce
and Brisa is Marisa de la Rosa, Lima, Peru. Owned by Kim Borgans.

After the birth of my second litter P the problems started with BRISA
HUATUNTUPAQ, the sister of the male BRONCE I have used for
breeding of this litter. BRISA HUATUNTUPAC has juvenile cataracts
in BOTH eyes, she is blind. For the hole story see Kim Borgans, the
owner of this two dogs.

All of my BB have found the best Pethome and loving owners, NOT to
breeders or kennels. Paconda and Taquille stay with me. From that
moment I was waiting to see how this litter will develop in the future.
I show Paconda & Puno Taquille, the puppies looked great and happy.

DUTCHREBELS PARIVA, an other sister of this P litter,
has Hanging Tongue Syndrome as well as an underdeveloped lower
jaw at young age.

Until the real drama started :( I need to let go my first kiddo :(

DUTCHREBELS PAQARI, one of the girls of the P Litter, has primary
idiopathic epilepsy.

Through this Hereditary disease we need to let her go at young age
(15 months). For the owner of Paqari, Jeanine, this was very sad. And
the real health dogs got a black page forever in this sad story .

I have informed the breeders of PSPP about health and care in dogs
life, to warn for this kind of people they breed dogs and don't give the
right information about health problems. ( PB mails)

We need to warn together to take dogs OUT of breeding they have
Hereditary diseases. Marisa la Rosa sent us the most terrible poor
dogs, without the RIGHT information about them.
We, Kim and me, never get a reply from this breeder. This means for
me personally, we can NOT trust the dogs who arrived from Marisa la
Rosa. (Scroll down for the mail Kim did sent to Marisa )
This is the right time for me to close the door for Breeders like this.
First let them make rules for DNA and ECVO testing. And don't forget
research of the FOXI 3 gen !! Untill that time I will never trust dogs of
the Huatuntupac kennel anymore for one of my combinations.

Marisa needs to work on a breeding program for the dogs she sends
to Europe, there is no transparency or monitoring .
For god's sake every day to learn from your breeding please, then we
have a good corporation for our breed.

I hope we learn from this very sad drama. I will let you know I fight
for my dogs worldwide. I have healthy, strong dogs and will protect
them !! Pedigree dogs NEED a happy, good life for a long time. The
healthy dogs are suffering under arrogance of people, with selfish
behavior and the most of all : MONEY :( .

The P litter is out of breeding or show program for the future. More
info at :

Thanks Marisa la Rosa, you have stolen my pictures and information
of the Dutchrebels website and the database. It is a shame you give
the wrong information about dogs/ kennels worldwide .
Shame on you !!

DUTCHREBELS Trude van Padt

Hello Marisa and Clelia,

I hope you both are fine. After my last message true FB I did not get
any reply. I told you that I was greatfull that you kept your word to
replace me a new puppy for the catatact of Brisa. But because I stop
breeding for now ( or ever) and don't feel to anticipate shows
anymore it would be not wise to take another of your beautifull BB's
while somebody else would be very happy to have one. So I proposed
that you'd sell the pup and send me the money. But no replay so far,
maybe you did not read/get that message. Facebook is not always
working well as we know,....

But now we have a new and even bigger problem in this line: one of
the female puppys of Bruce has severe epileptic seisures! In the
beginning we did not believe the owner, she is pregnant and a little
bit hysteric. It started at christmass,... Some small seisures, but last
saturday she had multiple at one day!!! And we have it on film too. It
is terrible to watch! This week Bronce will be castrated, because this
can only come from his line. The Wanhan Wuoren line is 100% clean
of epilepsie. So now both Briss and Bronce are taken out of breeding
and the whole litter must be sterilized too!!

This is terrible and a nightmare for Trude, kennel Dutchrebels, who
is the breeder of this litter,..... I have no words how to discribe this
horror of an epileptic dog, so sad! And the fear and panic of the
pregnant owner really breaks my heart!

I will send you 2 movies right after this email, so you can judge for
yourself. I hope that all health problems of siblings will be in the open
and not covered up!

Hope to hear from you, have a nice day.


Each of us should know what epilepsy is and whats causing it. But
few are prepared to admit the existence of it in their own dogs and
breeding lines. Even fewer are prepared to go public with that
information and to admit, that their dog is sick or they may possibly
be carrying epilepsy. There seem to be plenty of lies and secrecy. Not
many have the courage to tell the truth. And even fewer are prepared
for real to do everything possible to prevent epilepsy from spreading.
It is extremely easy to continue breeding in sick bloodlines and
especially to blame dogs by other breeders.

We all should have at least some knowledge about the mechanism
of epilepsy.

Each breeder has their own goals and ways of breeding and also their
own integrity in growing the number of dogs. You dont buy your
honesty towards the race and your own breeding with lies,
accusations and dirt throwing.

Every one of us has our own opinion of which dog is good enough for
breeding and which dog is a GENUINE hairless, which is HEALTHY
and which has a GOOD NATURE. And we shouldnt forget what the
race is supposed to be like.

There is a lot more when it comes to responsible breeding. We also
have the right to choose who we are working with and whose dogs
we are using / to whom we give our dogs for breeding or even sell
our dogs. Only few have the guts to use this right.

The less glamorous side of breeding dogs is a lot more than secrecy,
blaming others and lies. I have always said and will say it again, that
we all get bad puppies sometimes. It is nothing you need to do on
purpose. And nobody has to lower their morality it is not in the
interest of the race.
Dirt throwing, envy and politics this is the dirty side of breeding
dogs. Sometimes it would be good to look in the mirror and face the

It is very unfortunate that the race database was misused as means of
some one trying to benefit their own cause. It is very easy to find and
share information from the database without knowing the dogs and
their true health information.

I used to publicise the information and my suspicions of epilepsy on
my webpage information concerning my dogs and their bloodlines.

I knew about this incoming storm and sent a message containing
the info abroad to a few of people having a dog bred by me and one
breeder, of whom I have one dog. I havent made any calls or had any
other kind of contact to them. In the message I didnt give out any
specific names of dogs or breeders I was referring to. Not one of the
persons receiving this message felt needing further information or
asked which dogs the matter concerned.
Why did I send this message to foreign owners of my dogs? They
have bred / will be breeding my bloodlines.
They had the right to know and I had the duty to provide them with
an explanation before this public dirt throwing would begin. And I
knew it would begin Ive seen it before. And I know where it is
I know that you Marisa la Rosa could have chose to press reply all
and expressed your opinion properly and to people involved in the
matter. If you were referring to the message I sent.

But it doesnt remove the fact that a descendant of your dog has
died of this disease. And the dead dog is also a descendant of my

My situation is a bit different from yours.
My dogs have a fairly long pedigree. The dogs used for breeding have
lived/live with families. I usually dont use very young dogs for
breeding, because I want to take time to see if any health problems
emerge. Surely I have made some exceptions even lately.

I can understand that in order to defend your own breeding, you
copied / actually STOLE all possible information from the health
database of the race and publicised it.
That was really low of you.
You dont know the dogs, most of them you havent even seen or had
any contact with their owners or even breeders. I would call this
shooting all over the place in panic.
You had no need or intention to find out the truth, you only wanted
to defend your own breeding.

If you had spent a bit more time with the pedigree of this race, you
could probably have understood the situation a little better and also
been able to interpret it the right way.
My help is / would have been available.

The epilepsy of my dogs is an easy matter to solve.

My epileptic ILL dog


Is the only sure certainly of epilepsy case in my knowledge concerning
my dogs, and it has had four epileptic attacks / or epileptic-type attacks in
her life time.
Chili is not on medication, because she has not had the attacks very often
and in these days the attacks have been so mild.
Other members of Chilis litter havent had any sign of epilepsy.
The owners of Chilis siblings and all the other owners of my dogs, have
been informed about Chilis epilepsy.

The Hitti-litter of which Chili comes from, has been excluded from
The puppies of this litter, were never used in breeding. These dogs
have lived as pets in the owners homes.

We have never used any of Chilis mothers Sde siblings in
breeding either. Chilis mother or her siblings have never had any
symptoms of epilepsy.

Chilis father Tiittus has been used for breeding three times in years
Chilis father or his siblings have never had any symptoms of
epilepsy. No epilepsy has been discovered in the descendants of
Chiliss fathers siblings. Not in the next generations either.
There has been no epilepsy in Tiittuss other descendants or in other
combinations. We used Tiittus for breeding before Chilis epileptic
attacks emerged.

The bloodline of Tiittus has been used in continuous breeding in
descending generations.
There has been no signs or symptoms in the descending generations.

It is the duty of every dog owner to inform the breeder about
any signs of sicknesses appearing in their dogs.

The duty of the breeder is to tell the owners about any signs of
sicknesses appearing in the bred dogs. And for those who are
planning to get a dog from her, or using her dogs for further
breeding. The breeder should always inform the owners of her
dogs about serious sicknesses and especially hereditary
I myself inform the owners, who are involved in the matter
and the breeders working in collaboration, who are using a
dog of my bloodline.

This information is not to be added to the race health
database updated by Sonja K.
All rights reserved.

Here is a combination of a dog sick of epilepsy:
As you can see, the father is from Peru and died recently. It lead a
truly healthy and epilepsy free life.
Tara - BLUE CREST'S QUEEN OF MILLIONS died a year ago. She
had epilepsy of which I told publicly. And got a lot of negative
publicity for it. The epilepsy of Tara was probably caused by an
accident. She almost died of leather bone stuck to her throat. We only
discovered what was going on when she was already stiff, her eyes
were glazed and she hadnt been able to breathe for a long time. We
had to force her mouth open. We couldnt get the bone out, so we
forced it down her throat and she started breathing. Ive had many
discussions with experts about this incident and they have felt this
might be one of the reasons causing her epilepsy.

Taras last puppies were almost a year old, when she got her first
recorded epileptic attack.

Only two dogs of this line have been used in breeding. This litter had
4 puppies.

Magi - I went public with the information about the first one in
race born without an ear canal ( in europe). Two of the puppies were
put down and sent to the pathologist. All the documents are safe with
That was the end of this line.
The father Vicus of this litter is still in good shape and alive.
Without epilepsy. The mother Magi is perky old lady and living
without epilepsy.

This is the other line I have been using, and here you can see the
pedigree of the latest one in line, living at my home .
This line has been built up really carefully. The puppies of latest litter
( by accident) are now over three years old. I had no intention of
having the litter. The mother and father were living with my friend
and a registered the puppies on my kennel name.
Goes without saying that these puppies havent had any epileptic
attacks. When the puppies are old enough we will consider real hard
weather to use them for breeding or not.

We were following this TARA-PELE bloodline real close. This dog
Roli (whose pedigree you can see) had two sort of epileptic-TYPE
attacks according to the owner.
This dog has been sterilized and as far as I know it hasnt had any big
or small actual attacks. And it hasnt had any more thorough
investigations done. The suspicion was enough for me. Its siblings
havent either had epilepsy.

No other dogs from this line have been used for breeding, they have
all been cut out. They are no threat to the health or future of the race.
And so they havent brought any good or bad sides of them to any
dog, not ever or nowhere.

The dog that still seems to be blamed for epilepsy is my first hairless
Peruvian dog MAX:
This dog Max has lived with me and also my friends so that they
could get acquainted with the race. It has spent a happy life in a
family. Max has never had an epileptic attack.

The pedigrees Marisa la Rosa has been showing are not 100%
identical to Maxs own pedigree. If we know the basics of epilepsy, we
know that: all the puppies of a litter are possibly not even carriers of
the decease. It is difficult to tell apart the healthy ones. Only time will
tell and the puppies to come. And I think that 17 years is a long time
enough! It is for me and the owners of my dogs. And it should be
enough for others too.

I wish that everybody could present the pedigrees of their dogs for at
least a period of 12 years and that they would know in person the
dogs in these pedigrees for a period of 7 years.

The other dog still accused of epilepsy is a dog I imported from Peru,
Flipper is an old dog and is still feeling good. Probably living his last
year. This dog hasnt had a single epileptic attack. Flipper has shared
his fabulous character but also severe problems with missing teeth.
It is difficult to get rid of those problems, but I would rather breed
dogs missing teeth than knowingly breed dogs that have epilepsy. 13
years is also the time to discover epilepsy, if there was some.

Amy Malmivaara asked You to present the documents proving Her
dogs being sick / a risk for the race. I am looking forward to seeing
these documents too. We dont want to listen to hearsay. Or what
ever someone has been telling.

There are so many parts involved in this drama.
This is the pedigree of Poeme. She was the mother of the litter of
which the epileptic puppy was part. Poemes father is BEREBERE
D'MICHANZAMAN and it has lived in Finland since 2006. It is still
healthy and has never had any recorded or seen epileptic attacks.
More information about its pedigree will probably be found in Peru.

Then there is Tupac, who came from Peru together with Bere and is
still healthy and free of epilepsy. Tupac is the grandfather of the
dead puppy.

My magnificent import from Peru is FINA:
Fina lived a life totally free of epilepsy. She has really many lineal
descendants. The fact is that some breeders have had epilepsy in
their pedigrees from this line. We still need to look at the big picture.
What other lines have been used for breeding. Are there any common
nominators and many imports to the pedigree?
Fina is absolutely the best dog I have ever imported from Peru. A
fabulous dog. And it is all thanks to Ursula.

And when I look at the pedigree containing all my dogs You have
pronounced sick or under suspicion:

These Diivas puppies are healthy and over 3 years old. They havent
had any problems with their health, not to mention epilepsy. I have
imported a lot of dogs from Peru. Most of them I havent approved as
part of my breeding. My motto has been that you dont need to grow
shit with shit shit always keeps coming anyway. I am also very
picky about using my own dogs for breeding. It certainly isnt good
enough for me that the dog is alive and has sexual organs.

The common nominator in my opinion concerning the pedigree of

As a breeder I can never know what the genetics of each dog is and
how each gene will affect different litters, which is latent and what
will appear now or later in form of carrying the disease or being sick.
This is a fact that every breeder has to live with / risk.

This is the situation of my dogs beginning from year 1997. I have met
and seen also the old lines in Europe. Many of the dogs I have
examined by hand myself and seen them alive. I think I have made
my homework. My knowledge of the race is available to the owners
of my dogs. And I have taken part of the first genetic tests in the
beginning of the 21
century, when the samples were sent to USA

I have always published the information about any sickness or
suspicion of any sickness in my dogs and also informed the owners
whom it may concern.

Truth never dies.
I have had the guts to say out loud that my dogs have this and that
problems. I have also had my dogs tested and examined a lot and I
know a lot about them.

To me this has been and still is the only race Im breeding. It is my
passion and my destiny.
I have had a magnificent honor to have Wonderful and Honest
owners of my dogs. They have taken care on loved my dogs and been
worthy of my trust.

I have never tried to hide any disease, or asked the owners of my
dogs to shut up or hide facts, but rather encouraged them to speak
out the truth.
As I have done also with Trude.
I am proud You told the truth about Your dog.
Even though it affects my own work as a breeder.

Its good that I am such a hated breeder, that all kinds of attempts to
hide things, have no way of succeeding. The truth will always come
out, sooner or later, and this applies to all of us.

Now the discussion of sick dogs is out, and I hope everybody that has
sick or suspicious dogs is brave enough to take part in it.

We dont save the race by hiding facts and blaming each other.
We save it by being honest and by loving the race.
We have to disqualify the sick or suspicious dogs from breeding.
I dont accept using sick lines for breeding. I never have and I never
I dont breed dogs just for selling; I breed them to be family members
for myself and for my friends, and also material for ours own
breeding work.

I still earn my living to support my dogs, my dogs dont support me
or the dogs living with me.

In future I will think really carefully which dogs I will use and to
whom I give them for breeding.

In my opinion if we cant even be honest to the races true
hairlessness, it is hard to believe in honesty in things not visible to
the eye talking about epilepsy or similar diseases.

The dog world is brutal. It knows who to blame for what reason. But
there are just a few of us carrying the responsibility.

The truth Marisa is after all that the descendant of my and your
dog has been really ill and it has been put down because of
Once you have cleared it to you self and you know the lines of all your
dogs and what lies behind them and what has happened to them in
all these years you have bred them then I believe you know the
truth. When you are sure you have done what can be done.

You can have a peaceful rest and trust that the truth will come out in
time. I have time to wait for answers from the future. Time always
tells the truth.
Defaming will end some day and the truth will come out.
Waiting for it to happen.

I have a lot of better thing to do in my life than stuff like this. But I felt
important to clarify this and everybody can read this message for as
many times they find it necessary. In order to get it right.
The dogs that are descendants of Poeme, I have bred or own, have
never suffered of epilepsy or its symptoms.
The only lines that MIGHT have had any signs of epilepsy is Taras and
Chilis line, but nothing else has ever been found or come out.

Nobody knows anything for sure about the CARRIERS. There just
isnt any way of investigating it for sure. Breeding is about risk
management and genetics, which we cannot change.

We can only affect our own breeding and make sure we know the
background of the dogs we are using.

Feel free to email me if you have some questions on your mind.
I am happy to discuss them with you, when I have the time for it. The
computer is just a tool for me, not my whole life and world. I dont
want to waste time sitting online.

Wishing a better time for the race and true HONESTY.

With regards
Pivi Votkin
Wanhan Wuoren Kennel Peruvian Hairless dogs since 1997