jghrist (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 12:36

Quote:
For 3-phase symmetrical fault, !oul" thi#$ the a%erage force o# outer co#"uctors fee"i#g the
fault !oul" &e attracti%e (&ecause 120 "egrees-apart curre#ts are i# opposite "irectio# for 2'3 of
the cycle), right(
)he# the curre#ts are i# the opposite "irectio#, the forces are repulsi%e*
electricpete (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 12:+,
-es, you.re right / ha" that &ac$!ar"s for a mome#t*
0o! let.s circle &ac$ a#" re%isit the phase-to-phase fault* # that case curre#ts are flo!i#g
opposite "irectio# as !ell, so shoul"#.t they &e repulsi%e(

1111111111111111111111111111111111111
E#g-tips forums: 2he &est place o# the !e& for e#gi#eeri#g "iscussio#s*
electricpete (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 12:31
0e%er mi#" - that.s e4actly !hat you sai"*
1111111111111111111111111111111111111
E#g-tips forums: 2he &est place o# the !e& for e#gi#eeri#g "iscussio#s*
su##y51 (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 13:3,
2ha#$s e%eryo#e, great i#formatio#*
0o!, !oul" it &e safe to assume for my pro'mecha#ica a#alysis for a symmetrical 3phase fault,
that the &race !oul" &e seei#g a force of say 1000l&s o# 6 a#" 1000l&s o# 7 phase goi#g i# the
opposite "irectio#s, cause 8 phase forces !oul" a%erage out to 9ero*

jghrist (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 13:0,
Quote:
0o!, !oul" it &e safe to assume for my pro'mecha#ica a#alysis for a symmetrical 3phase fault,
that the &race !oul" &e seei#g a force of say 1000l&s o# 6 a#" 1000l&s o# 7 phase goi#g i# the
opposite "irectio#s, cause 8 phase forces !oul" a%erage out to 9ero*
EEE :t" 603, IEEE Guide for Design of Substation Rigid-Bus Structures co#si"ers pea$ force
"uri#g a# asymmetrical fault, #ot a%erage "uri#g a symmetrical fault* 2he force o# the mi""le
phase "uri#g a 3; fault is 0*566 times the force o# the &uses "uri#g a ;-; fault of the same
mag#itu"e* 2he force o# the outsi"e phases is 0*505 times the ;-; fault force*

"esertfo4 (Mecha#ical) 3 Mar 10 16:15
<i su##y51
f you clic$ o# the li#$ ga%e you i# my earlier post, the# clic$ o# electromag#etic stresses it
!ill gi%e you formula.s for calculati#g the forces o# the &us&ars for your situatio#*
"esertfo4
!aross (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 21:22
6#ytime "uri#g the cycle that the curre#t is 9ero i# a &us, the force o# that &us !ill &e 9ero*
# practice the force o# the outer &us &ars !ill &e out!ar" a#" the ce#ter &us !ill te#" to s!i#g
&ac$ a#" forth &et!ee# them*
8ill
--------------------
=)hy #ot the &est(=
>immy 7arter
jac$6235 (Electrical) 20 Mar 10 12:3,
)ell, this is a great ?uestio# a#" let.s start !ith the fu#"ame#tals* 2he ?uestio# is !here is the
greatest force "epe#"s o# the &us co#figuratio#* :urely this ma$es se#se*
For e4ample a &us that is co#firuge" is a hori9o#tal pla#e li$e 687 "oes #ot create the same
force as a &us that has a co#figuratio# of a# e?ualitratel pla#e( a# e?ual lateral traia#gle)* 2he
e?ual-lateral tria#gle has e?ual force o# each co#"uctor (that is the "esig# parameter) !her a
687 arra#geme#t has the ma4imum force o#the mi""le co#"uctor*
:o !hat is the force o# co#"uctors i# the same pla#e(
<ere are the co#si"eratio#s:
1*-ou #ee" to "etermi#e the sectio# mo"ulus of the co#"uctors* For recta#gular co#"uctors the
sectio# mo"ulus is :1 &@ "A2'6 !here " is the !i"th a#" & is the height*(Befere#ce Mecha#ic of
Materials ,Fairma# C 7utshall, >oh# )iley C :o#s, page 113*
2*s the &us 6lumi#um or 7opper* 2he &us may ha%e the same sectio# mo"ulus &ut as you
$#o!, alumi#um may ha%e a lo!er yiel" stre#gth tha# 7opper a#" this ma$es it a !ea$er
system*
3* For a &uses i# the same pla#e, the ma4imum force is o# the phase 8 co#"uctor a#" this force
occurs +3 "egrees after the short circuit occurs i# phase 8 as the curre#t passes through a
curre#t 9ero %alue* 6ll othe short circut occurre#ces pro"uce less force*
+* 2he Force is gi%e# &y:
F(l&s'#A21 3D.3@ A2@10A6'(10AD@E) !here E "ista#ce &et!ee# the ce#ter to ce#ter
&us &uses)*
6*F#ce you $#o! the sectio# mo"ulus, the short circuit i# symmetrical amps, the "ista#ce
&et!ee# &uses , you ca# easily "etermi#e the re?uire" "ista#ce &et!ee# &raci#g re?uireme#ts*
F&%iously this is #ot a calculatio# for roo$ies*
>ac$
!aross (Electrical) 20 Mar 10 16:+1
Quote:
the ma4imum force is o# the phase 8 co#"uctor a#" this force occurs +3 "egrees after the short
circuit occurs i# phase 8 as the curre#t passes through a curre#t 9ero %alue* 6ll othe short
circut occurre#ces pro"uce less force*
Ma4imum force at 9ero curre#t(
Ei" rea" this properly(
thought that the repelli#g force !as greatest &et!ee# a"jace#t co#"uctors !he# the curre#ts
!ere e?ual* 2hat is !he# the sum of the s?uares of the curre#ts !ill &e greatest*
8ill
--------------------
=)hy #ot the &est(=
>immy 7arter
"esertfo4 (Mecha#ical) 20 Mar 10 16:+,
<i !aross
0o you rea" jac$s post correctly*
F&%iously my li#$ to short circuit forces o# &us&ars must &e i#%isi&le other tha# to me*
"esertfo4
jac$6235 (Electrical) 20 Mar 10 1D:15
Mr* 8ill,

shoul" ha%e &ee# more specific a&out !he# the ma4imum force occurs---a#" tha#$ you for
#oti#g !as #ot clear o# that specific poi#t* 6ctually there !ere se%eral poi#ts !hich #ee"e"
a""itio#al e4platio#*
7o#cer#i#g !he# the ma4imum force occurs*
2he ma4imum force occurs !he# the short circuit occurs +3 "egrees after the 9ero curre#t i#
Ghase 8* 2he ma4imum force !ill the# occurs 1'2 cycle after the i#sta#t of the short circuit*
6#y other com&i#atio# of circumsta#ces !ill pro"uce a smaller %alue*
:ta#ley Hillia#, he !as a Ee%elopmet a#" Besearch E#gi#eer for Eelta :tar Electric 7ompa#y
(7hicago), "escri&es this i# greater "etail i# =Forces Eue to :hort 7ircuit 7urre#ts= Electrical
)orl", Eecem&er 12, 1,+2*
6lso co#cer#i#g the 8raci#g Be?uireme#ts
Ffte#, or sometimes, the &us &ars are #ot i# the same pla#e* 2hat is they are i# a staggere"
pla#e or they co#tai# &e#"s* 0ot a# easy solutio# to this* <ere is !hat is happe#i#g* )he# the
forces are #ot i# the same pla#e, the forces causes the &uses to !a#t to =t!ist= or rotate so the
&us &ars !ill #ee" to resist this motio#* sol%e this &y calculati#g the &raci#g "ista#ce for &uses
i# the same pla#e a#" a""i#g a &race i# the mi""le of the calculatio#* For e4ample, Bather tha#
12 = !oul" a"" o#e at 6 i#ches*
6#other item co#cer#i#g &raci#g*
2o really calculate the &raci#g "ista#ces, you #ee" to $#o! the e4act yiel" stre#gth (G:) of the
&us &ar material* Most calculatio# are for copper* 6lumi#um alloy are #o! almost e?ual to the
yiel" of 7opper* 2he calculatio#s are ma"e for copper a#" the# a"juste" for 6I* For e4ample
if the yiel" stre#gth of alumi#um is 6000 G: a#" copper is 13,000 G:, the# the calculatio#s
are a"juste" to J6000'13000KA0*3 10*633 of the "ista#ce for copper material* :o you calculate
10 i#ch &raci#g for copper a#" for 6l the &raci#g re?uireme#t is 10@*633 1 6*33 i#ches* t all
"epe#"s o# the yiel" stre#gth for the material use" i# your calculatio#s*
<ope this helps a#" ma#y tha#$s to 8ill for as$i#g that ?uestio#* !as i# a hurry a#" shoul"
ha%e ta$e# the time to fully e4plai#* :orryL
6lso, there appears to &e sig#ifica#t i#terest i# this su&ject as the i#sura#ce compa#ies for
i#"ustrials as$ for short circuit a#" flash ha9ar" calculatio#s* ha%e helpe" se%eral sol%e these
pro&lems a#" a%oi" a replaceme#t or re&uil"*
2he &asic e#gi#eeri#g for this topic ca# &e fou#" i# the !or$ &y 7*<* Ma# 6spe# of <y"ro
Electro Go!er 7omissio# of F#tario -1,22 a#" also <*8 E!ight*
>ac$

:cottyNH (Electrical) 20 Mar 10 1D:2+
"esertfo4,
ca# see it*
2he co#te#t of the !e& page !as o#ce pu&lishe" as a har"co%er &oo$ &y the 7E6 calle"
.7opper for 8us&ars., a#" some of the "iagrams ha%e &ee# sca##e" i# !hich e4plai#s the
i#"iffere#t ?uality of the images* 2he &oo$ is !ell !orth trac$i#g "o!# if o#ly for the images
of co#temporary e?uipme#t* My perso#al fa%ourite is the +0,0006 230M E7 circuit &rea$er, as
i# +0,0006 thermal rati#g, #ot &rea$i#g capacity* t is the si9e of a small truc$*

----------------------------------

f !e lear# from our mista$es .m getti#g a great e"ucatio#L

"esertfo4 (Mecha#ical) 20 Mar 10 1D:3,
<i :cottyNH
-es ha%e a copy of that %ery &oo$ a#" thought it !as still a%aila&le, it is !ell !orth ha%i#g a
copy agree*
<ere.s a ?uote o# the ma4 force.s "ue to a si#gle phase a#" three phase fault:-
Ma4imum stresses
)he# a &us&ar system is ru##i#g #ormally the i#terphase forces are #ormally %ery small !ith
the static !eight of the &us&ars &ei#g the "omi#a#t compo#e#t* N#"er short-circuit co#"itio#s
this is %ery ofte# #ot the case as the curre#t rises to a pea$ of some thirty times its #ormal %alue,
falli#g after a fe! cycles to te# times its i#itial %alue* 2hese high tra#sitory curre#ts create large
mecha#ical forces #ot o#ly i# the &us&ars themsel%es &ut also i# their supporti#g system* 2his
mea#s that the support i#sulators a#" their associate" steel!or$ must &e "esig#e" to !ithsta#"
these high loa"s as !ell as their #ormal structural re?uireme#ts such as !i#", ice, seismic a#"
static loa"s*
2he pea$ or fully asymmetrical short circuit curre#t is "epe#"e#t o# the po!er factor (cos f) of
the &us&ar system a#" its associate" co##ecte" electrical pla#t* 2he %alue is o&tai#e" &y
multiplyi#g the r*m*s* symmetrical curre#t &y the appropriate factor gi%e# i# 8ala#ce" three-
phase short-circuit stresses*
f the po!er factor of the system is #ot $#o!# the# a factor of 2*33 !ill #ormally &e close to the
actual system %alue especially !here ge#eratio# is co#cer#e"* 0ote that the theoretical
ma4imum for this factor is 2O2 or 2*525 !here cos f 1 0* 2hese pea$ %alues re"uce
e4po#e#tially a#" after appro4imately 10 cycles the factor falls to 1*0, i*e*, the symmetrical
r*m*s* short circuit curre#t* 2he pea$ forces therefore #ormally occur i# the first t!o cycles
(0*0+ s) as sho!# i# Figure 13*
# the case of a completely asymmetrical curre#t !a%e, the forces !ill &e applie" !ith a
fre?ue#cy e?ual to that of the supply fre?ue#cy a#" !ith a "ou&le fre?ue#cy as the !a%e
&ecomes symmetrical* 2herefore i# the case of a 30 <9 supply these forces ha%e fre?ue#cies of
30 or 100 <9*
2he ma4imum stresses to !hich a &us structure is li$ely to &e su&jecte" !oul" occur "uri#g a
short-circuit o# a si#gle-phase &us&ar system i# !hich the li#e short-circuit curre#ts are
"isplace" &y 150P*
# a three-phase system a short-circuit &et!ee# t!o phases is almost i"e#tical to the si#gle-
phase case a#" although the phase curre#ts are #ormally "isplace" &y 120P, u#"er short-circuit
co#"itio#s the phase curre#ts of the t!o phases are almost 150P out of phase* 2he effect of the
thir" phase ca# &e #eglecte"*
# a &ala#ce" three-phase short-circuit, the resulta#t forces o# a#y o#e of the three phases is less
tha# i# the si#gle-phase case a#" is "epe#"e#t o# the relati%e physical positio#s of the three
phases*
# the case of a si#gle-phase short-circuit, the forces pro"uce" are u#i"irectio#al a#" are
therefore more se%ere tha# those "ue to a three-phase short-circuit, !hich alter#ate i# "irectio#*
2he short-circuit forces ha%e to &e a&sor&e" first &y the co#"uctor* 2he co#"uctor therefore
must ha%e a# a"e?uate proof stre#gth to carry these forces !ithout perma#e#t "istortio#*
7opper satisfies this re?uireme#t as it has high stre#gth compare" !ith other co#"uctor
materials (2a&le 2)* 8ecause of the high stre#gth of copper, the i#sulators ca# &e more !i"ely
space" tha# is possi&le !ith lo!er-
2hie#ma (Electrical) 1+ May 0, ,:2,
<i 6ll,
.m a &it pu99li#g &y the Qamma Factor of 1, *566, a#" *505 liste" o# 2a&le 2 of the EEE
sta#"ar" as a"justme#t factors for the &us force "epe#" o# the type of fault a#" co#"uctor
locatio#* .m see$i#g a"%ice o#:
1) f you ha%e a#y refere#ce or "ocume#t sho!i#g ho! these factors !ere "eri%e"*
2) 7a# these factors &e use" to calculate the actual &us &ar fault curre#t !ithsta#" capa&ility
(i*e* Multiply the Qamma factor to the asymmetrical curre#t)(((
.m %ery much co#fuse" &y this a#" a#y a"%ice is greatly appreciate"* 2ha#$ you for your time*
"esertfo4 (Mecha#ical) 1+ May 0, ,:3D
<i 2hie#a
2his site might help:-
http:''!!!*copperi#fo*co*u$'&us&ars'pu&22-copper-for-&us&ars'sec6*htmRElectromag#etic
S20:tresses
"esertfo4
2hie#ma (Electrical) 1+ May 0, 10:30
2ha#$s "esertfo4,
ha%e see# that "ocume#t i# the past, &ut #ot ?uite sure ho! "i" they come up !ith the *566 or *
505 factors* 6lso, ho! ca# these factors &e applie" to calculate, electrically, the ma4imum
fault curre#t that the &us shoul" &e a&le to !ithsta#"* f !ere to o&tai# the asymmetrical
curre#t of the &us usi#g the T'B ratio at 1'2 cycle pea$ follo!i#g fault, ca# multiply this
asymmetrical curre#t !ith the "ecreme#t factor of *566 to get the ma4imum fault curre#t that
the &us must !ithsta#"(( !as tal$i#g !ith someo#e !ho propose" such, &ut "o#.t $#o!
ho! %ali" it is a#" &ee# loo$i#g for some sort of "is-proof or co#firmatio#*
jghrist (Electrical) 1+ May 0, 10:3D
2he 1, 0*566, a#" 0*505 factors are "eri%e" from calculati#g the pea$ forces usi#g
"iffere#tiatio# of the #et si#usoi"al forces o# the &us&ars for the "iffere#t faults* "o#.t ha%e
a#y refere#ces for the "eri%atio#, &ut ha%e "o#e the calculatio#s myself to co#firm that the
factors are correct*

"esertfo4 (Mecha#ical) 1+ May 0, 10:+5
hi 2hie#ma
-es it "oes#.t say !ere the factors came from assume" it !as li#$e" to the asymmetry of the
fault curre#t*
0ot sure !hy you !a#t the &us&ar fault curre#t !ithsta#", assume that the !ithsta#" curre#t
!oul" &e "etermi#e" &y the temperature rise or ho! ?uic$ the heat ca# &e "issapate" from the
&us&ar a#" also the stresses set up &et!ee# a"jace#t &us&ars "uri#g a fault*
From my e4perie#ce the fault rati#gs for &us&ars is either o#e or three seco#"s if "uri#g that
time the temperature "oes#.t get to high a#" the mecha#ical stresses are e4cepta&le ie:- they are
#ot perma#e#tly "eflecte" the# the system shoul" &e o$ay*
f you go to the i#"e4 o# the li#$ pro%i"e" i# the pre%ious post there are sectio#s o# the
curre#t rati#gs of &us&ars*
http:''!!!*copperi#fo*co*u$'&us&ars'pu&22-copper-for-&us&ars'sec3*htm
"esertfo4
2hie#ma (Electrical) 1+ May 0, 11:0,
Eesertfo4,
2he reaso# !hy i !as loo$i#g for the short-circuit !ithsta#" capa&ility is that !e ha%e o#e of
the &uses i# our system !hich comes pretty close to the "esig#e" electrical curre#t rati#g, a#"
!as #ot certai# if the same rati#g is a"e?uate gi%e# the prese#t co#figuratio#* 2hrough tal$i#g
!ith a fello! e#gi#eer, he suggeste" that the *566 factor ca# &e use" to "erate the total fault
curre#t impacti#g the &us, a#" i.m "o a little soul searchi#g to see if i#"ee" his suggestio# is
%ali" a#" if the same approach !as &ei#g use" else!here*
"esertfo4 (Mecha#ical) 1+ May 0, 11:+3
<i 2hie#ma
# that case !oul" use the formula for:- :hort 7ircuit <eati#g of 8ars i# the seco#" li#$
poste" earlier*
2he time t calculate" from this must &e greater tha# the short circuit time rati#g for the system*
"esertfo4
jghrist (Electrical) 1+ May 0, 1D:31
2he 0*566 is applica&le o#ly for the short circuit force calculatio#, #ot for the thermal rati#g* t
has to "o !ith the fact that the curre#ts i# a"jace#t &uses "uri#g a 3; fault are #ot 150P out of
phase li$e they are "uri#g a ;-; fault*

patric$D,61 (Electrical) 13 May 0, 10:01
2he reaso# !hy i !as loo$i#g for the short-circuit !ithsta#" capa&ility is that !e ha%e o#e of
the &uses i# our system !hich comes pretty close to the "esig#e" electrical curre#t rati#g, a#"
!as #ot certai# if the same rati#g is a"e?uate gi%e# the prese#t co#figuratio#*
i# or"er to &e assure" that the &us i# ?uestio# is i# complie#ce !ith 603 you #ee" to loo$ at the
co#ti#ous curre#t rati#g, the short c$t rati#g, chec$ that the &us %oltage gra"ie#t a#" thermal
e4pa#sio# are o$*
-ou !ill #ee" to calculate the total %ectorial force o# the &us, the# you ca# chec$ the ma4 spa#
&ase" o# &us stre#gth, &us "eflectio#, a#" i#sulator stre#gth* -ou !ill also ha%e to $#o! !hat
loa"i#g "istrict you are i# light, me"ium, hea%y* -ou also #ee" to $#o! !hat type of %i&ratio#
"ampers are i#stalle"*
you ca# chec$ the fault curre#t &y
17@10A6@6@JlogU(2f-20VH'Q)'(2i-20VH'Q)W'tKA*3