electricpete (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 12:49

Yes, you're right I ha that !ac"#ars $or a %o%e&t'

(o# let's circle !ac" a& re)isit the phase*to*phase $ault' I& that case curre&ts are $lo#i&g
opposite irectio& as #ell, so shoul&'t they !e repulsi)e+

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
E&g*tips $oru%s: -he !est place o& the #e! $or e&gi&eeri&g iscussio&s'
electricpete (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 12:.1
(e)er %i& * that's e/actly #hat you sai'
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
E&g*tips $oru%s: -he !est place o& the #e! $or e&gi&eeri&g iscussio&s'
su&&y01 (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 13:39
-ha&"s e)eryo&e, great i&$or%atio&'
(o#, #oul it !e sa$e to assu%e $or %y pro1%echa&ica a&alysis $or a sy%%etrical 3phase $ault,
that the !race #oul !e seei&g a $orce o$ say 1000l!s o& 2 a& 1000l!s o& 3 phase goi&g i& the
opposite irectio&s, cause 4 phase $orces #oul a)erage out to 5ero'

6ghrist (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 1.:09
Quote:
(o#, #oul it !e sa$e to assu%e $or %y pro1%echa&ica a&alysis $or a sy%%etrical 3phase $ault,
that the !race #oul !e seei&g a $orce o$ say 1000l!s o& 2 a& 1000l!s o& 3 phase goi&g i& the
opposite irectio&s, cause 4 phase $orces #oul a)erage out to 5ero'
IEEE 7t 80., IEEE Guide for Design of Substation Rigid-Bus Structures co&siers pea" $orce
uri&g a& asy%%etrical $ault, &ot a)erage uri&g a sy%%etrical $ault' -he $orce o& the %ile
phase uri&g a 39 $ault is 0'088 ti%es the $orce o& the !uses uri&g a 9*9 $ault o$ the sa%e
%ag&itue' -he $orce o& the outsie phases is 0'000 ti%es the 9*9 $ault $orce'

esert$o/ (Mecha&ical) 3 Mar 10 18:10
:i su&&y01
I$ you clic" o& the li&" I ga)e you i& %y earlier post, the& clic" o& electro%ag&etic stresses it
#ill gi)e you $or%ula's $or calculati&g the $orces o& the !us!ars $or your situatio&'
esert$o/
#aross (Electrical) 3 Mar 10 21:22
2&yti%e uri&g the cycle that the curre&t is 5ero i& a !us, the $orce o& that !us #ill !e 5ero'
I& practice the $orce o& the outer !us !ars #ill !e out#ar a& the ce&ter !us #ill te& to s#i&g
!ac" a& $orth !et#ee& the%'
4ill
********************
;<hy &ot the !est+;
=i%%y 3arter
6ac"8230 (Electrical) 20 Mar 10 12:39
<ell, this is a great >uestio& a& let's start #ith the $u&a%e&tals' -he >uestio& is #here is the
greatest $orce epe&s o& the !us co&$iguratio&' 7urely this %a"es se&se'
?or e/a%ple a !us that is co&$iruge is a hori5o&tal pla&e li"e 243 oes &ot create the sa%e
$orce as a !us that has a co&$iguratio& o$ a& e>ualitratel pla&e( a& e>ual lateral traia&gle)' -he
e>ual*lateral tria&gle has e>ual $orce o& each co&uctor (that is the esig& para%eter) #her a
243 arra&ge%e&t has the %a/i%u% $orce o&the %ile co&uctor'
7o #hat is the $orce o& co&uctors i& the sa%e pla&e+
:ere are the co&sieratio&s:
1'You &ee to eter%i&e the sectio& %oulus o$ the co&uctors' ?or recta&gular co&uctors the
sectio& %oulus is 7, !@ A218 #here is the #ith a& ! is the height'(Be$ere&ce Mecha&ic o$
Materials ,?air%a& C 3utshall, =oh& <iley C 7o&s, page 113'
2'Is the !us 2lu%i&u% or 3opper' -he !us %ay ha)e the sa%e sectio& %oulus !ut as you
"&o#, alu%i&u% %ay ha)e a lo#er yiel stre&gth tha& 3opper a& this %a"es it a #ea"er
syste%'
3' ?or a !uses i& the sa%e pla&e, the %a/i%u% $orce is o& the phase 4 co&uctor a& this $orce
occurs 4. egrees a$ter the short circuit occurs i& phase 4 as the curre&t passes through a
curre&t 5ero )alue' 2ll othe short circut occurre&ces prouce less $orce'
4' -he ?orce is gi)e& !y:
?(l!s1I&A2, 3D'.@ IA2@10A81(10AD@E) #here E ista&ce !et#ee& the ce&ter to ce&ter
!us !uses)'
8'F&ce you "&o# the sectio& %oulus, the short circuit i& sy%%etrical a%ps, the ista&ce
!et#ee& !uses , you ca& easily eter%i&e the re>uire ista&ce !et#ee& !raci&g re>uire%e&ts'
F!)iously this is &ot a calculatio& $or roo"ies'
=ac"
#aross (Electrical) 20 Mar 10 18:41
Quote:
the %a/i%u% $orce is o& the phase 4 co&uctor a& this $orce occurs 4. egrees a$ter the short
circuit occurs i& phase 4 as the curre&t passes through a curre&t 5ero )alue' 2ll othe short
circut occurre&ces prouce less $orce'
Ma/i%u% $orce at 5ero curre&t+
Ei I rea this properly+
I thought that the repelli&g $orce #as greatest !et#ee& a6ace&t co&uctors #he& the curre&ts
#ere e>ual' -hat is #he& the su% o$ the s>uares o$ the curre&ts #ill !e greatest'
4ill
********************
;<hy &ot the !est+;
=i%%y 3arter
esert$o/ (Mecha&ical) 20 Mar 10 18:49
:i #aross
(o you rea 6ac"s post correctly'
F!)iously %y li&" to short circuit $orces o& !us!ars %ust !e i&)isi!le other tha& to %e'
esert$o/
6ac"8230 (Electrical) 20 Mar 10 1D:10
Mr' 4ill,

I shoul ha)e !ee& %ore speci$ic a!out #he& the %a/i%u% $orce occurs***a& tha&" you $or
&oti&g I #as &ot clear o& that speci$ic poi&t' 2ctually there #ere se)eral poi&ts #hich &eee
aitio&al e/platio&'
3o&cer&i&g #he& the %a/i%u% $orce occurs'
-he %a/i%u% $orce occurs #he& the short circuit occurs 4. egrees a$ter the 5ero curre&t i&
Ghase 4' -he %a/i%u% $orce #ill the& occurs 112 cycle a$ter the i&sta&t o$ the short circuit'
2&y other co%!i&atio& o$ circu%sta&ces #ill prouce a s%aller )alue'
7ta&ley Hillia&, he #as a Ee)elop%et a& Besearch E&gi&eer $or Eelta 7tar Electric 3o%pa&y
(3hicago), escri!es this i& greater etail i& ;?orces Eue to 7hort 3ircuit 3urre&ts; Electrical
<orl, Eece%!er 12, 1942'
2lso co&cer&i&g the 4raci&g Be>uire%e&ts
F$te&, or so%eti%es, the !us !ars are &ot i& the sa%e pla&e' -hat is they are i& a staggere
pla&e or they co&tai& !e&s' (ot a& easy solutio& to this' :ere is #hat is happe&i&g' <he& the
$orces are &ot i& the sa%e pla&e, the $orces causes the !uses to #a&t to ;t#ist; or rotate so the
!us !ars #ill &ee to resist this %otio&' I sol)e this !y calculati&g the !raci&g ista&ce $or !uses
i& the sa%e pla&e a& ai&g a !race i& the %ile o$ the calculatio&' ?or e/a%ple, Bather tha&
12 ; I #oul a o&e at 8 i&ches'
2&other ite% co&cer&i&g !raci&g'
-o really calculate the !raci&g ista&ces, you &ee to "&o# the e/act yiel stre&gth (G7I) o$ the
!us !ar %aterial' Most calculatio& are $or copper' 2lu%i&u% alloy are &o# al%ost e>ual to the
yiel o$ 3opper' -he calculatio&s are %ae $or copper a& the& a6uste $or 2I' ?or e/a%ple
i$ the yiel stre&gth o$ alu%i&u% is 8000 G7I a& copper is 1.,000 G7I, the& the calculatio&s
are a6uste to J800011.000KA0'. ,0'833 o$ the ista&ce $or copper %aterial' 7o you calculate
10 i&ch !raci&g $or copper a& $or 2l the !raci&g re>uire%e&t is 10@'833 , 8'33 i&ches' It all
epe&s o& the yiel stre&gth $or the %aterial use i& your calculatio&s'
I :ope this helps a& %a&y tha&"s to 4ill $or as"i&g that >uestio&' I #as i& a hurry a& shoul
ha)e ta"e& the ti%e to $ully e/plai&' 7orryL
2lso, there appears to !e sig&i$ica&t i&terest i& this su!6ect as the i&sura&ce co%pa&ies $or
i&ustrials as" $or short circuit a& $lash ha5ar calculatio&s' I ha)e helpe se)eral sol)e these
pro!le%s a& a)oi a replace%e&t or re!uil'
-he !asic e&gi&eeri&g $or this topic ca& !e $ou& i& the #or" !y 3':' Ma& 2spe& o$ :yro
Electro Go#er 3o%issio& o$ F&tario *1922 a& also :'4 E#ight'
=ac"

7cottyNH (Electrical) 20 Mar 10 1D:24
esert$o/,
I ca& see it'
-he co&te&t o$ the #e! page #as o&ce pu!lishe as a harco)er !oo" !y the 3E2 calle
'3opper $or 4us!ars', a& so%e o$ the iagra%s ha)e !ee& sca&&e i& #hich e/plai&s the
i&i$$ere&t >uality o$ the i%ages' -he !oo" is #ell #orth trac"i&g o#& i$ o&ly $or the i%ages
o$ co&te%porary e>uip%e&t' My perso&al $a)ourite is the 40,0002 2.0M E3 circuit !rea"er, as
i& 40,0002 ther%al rati&g, &ot !rea"i&g capacity' It is the si5e o$ a s%all truc"'

**********************************

I$ #e lear& $ro% our %ista"es I'% getti&g a great eucatio&L

esert$o/ (Mecha&ical) 20 Mar 10 1D:.9
:i 7cottyNH
Yes I ha)e a copy o$ that )ery !oo" a& I thought it #as still a)aila!le, it is #ell #orth ha)i&g a
copy I agree'
:ere's a >uote o& the %a/ $orce's ue to a si&gle phase a& three phase $ault:*
Ma/i%u% stresses
<he& a !us!ar syste% is ru&&i&g &or%ally the i&terphase $orces are &or%ally )ery s%all #ith
the static #eight o$ the !us!ars !ei&g the o%i&a&t co%po&e&t' N&er short*circuit co&itio&s
this is )ery o$te& &ot the case as the curre&t rises to a pea" o$ so%e thirty ti%es its &or%al )alue,
$alli&g a$ter a $e# cycles to te& ti%es its i&itial )alue' -hese high tra&sitory curre&ts create large
%echa&ical $orces &ot o&ly i& the !us!ars the%sel)es !ut also i& their supporti&g syste%' -his
%ea&s that the support i&sulators a& their associate steel#or" %ust !e esig&e to #ithsta&
these high loas as #ell as their &or%al structural re>uire%e&ts such as #i&, ice, seis%ic a&
static loas'
-he pea" or $ully asy%%etrical short circuit curre&t is epe&e&t o& the po#er $actor (cos $) o$
the !us!ar syste% a& its associate co&&ecte electrical pla&t' -he )alue is o!tai&e !y
%ultiplyi&g the r'%'s' sy%%etrical curre&t !y the appropriate $actor gi)e& i& 4ala&ce three*
phase short*circuit stresses'
I$ the po#er $actor o$ the syste% is &ot "&o#& the& a $actor o$ 2'.. #ill &or%ally !e close to the
actual syste% )alue especially #here ge&eratio& is co&cer&e' (ote that the theoretical
%a/i%u% $or this $actor is 2O2 or 2'020 #here cos $ , 0' -hese pea" )alues reuce
e/po&e&tially a& a$ter appro/i%ately 10 cycles the $actor $alls to 1'0, i'e', the sy%%etrical
r'%'s' short circuit curre&t' -he pea" $orces there$ore &or%ally occur i& the $irst t#o cycles
(0'04 s) as sho#& i& ?igure 13'
I& the case o$ a co%pletely asy%%etrical curre&t #a)e, the $orces #ill !e applie #ith a
$re>ue&cy e>ual to that o$ the supply $re>ue&cy a& #ith a ou!le $re>ue&cy as the #a)e
!eco%es sy%%etrical' -here$ore i& the case o$ a .0 :5 supply these $orces ha)e $re>ue&cies o$
.0 or 100 :5'
-he %a/i%u% stresses to #hich a !us structure is li"ely to !e su!6ecte #oul occur uri&g a
short*circuit o& a si&gle*phase !us!ar syste% i& #hich the li&e short*circuit curre&ts are
isplace !y 100P'
I& a three*phase syste% a short*circuit !et#ee& t#o phases is al%ost ie&tical to the si&gle*
phase case a& although the phase curre&ts are &or%ally isplace !y 120P, u&er short*circuit
co&itio&s the phase curre&ts o$ the t#o phases are al%ost 100P out o$ phase' -he e$$ect o$ the
thir phase ca& !e &eglecte'
I& a !ala&ce three*phase short*circuit, the resulta&t $orces o& a&y o&e o$ the three phases is less
tha& i& the si&gle*phase case a& is epe&e&t o& the relati)e physical positio&s o$ the three
phases'
I& the case o$ a si&gle*phase short*circuit, the $orces prouce are u&iirectio&al a& are
there$ore %ore se)ere tha& those ue to a three*phase short*circuit, #hich alter&ate i& irectio&'
-he short*circuit $orces ha)e to !e a!sor!e $irst !y the co&uctor' -he co&uctor there$ore
%ust ha)e a& ae>uate proo$ stre&gth to carry these $orces #ithout per%a&e&t istortio&'
3opper satis$ies this re>uire%e&t as it has high stre&gth co%pare #ith other co&uctor
%aterials (-a!le 2)' 4ecause o$ the high stre&gth o$ copper, the i&sulators ca& !e %ore #iely
space tha& is possi!le #ith lo#er*
-hie&%a (Electrical) 14 May 09 9:29
:i 2ll,
I'% a !it pu55li&g !y the Qa%%a ?actor o$ 1, '088, a& '000 liste o& -a!le 2 o$ the IEEE
sta&ar as a6ust%e&t $actors $or the !us $orce epe& o& the type o$ $ault a& co&uctor
locatio&' I'% see"i&g a)ice o&:
1) I$ you ha)e a&y re$ere&ce or ocu%e&t sho#i&g ho# these $actors #ere eri)e'
2) 3a& these $actors !e use to calculate the actual !us !ar $ault curre&t #ithsta& capa!ility
(i'e' Multiply the Qa%%a $actor to the asy%%etrical curre&t)+++
I'% )ery %uch co&$use !y this a& a&y a)ice is greatly appreciate' -ha&" you $or your ti%e'
esert$o/ (Mecha&ical) 14 May 09 9:3D
:i -hie&a
-his site %ight help:*
http:11###'copperi&$o'co'u"1!us!ars1pu!22*copper*$or*!us!ars1sec8'ht%RElectro%ag&etic
S207tresses
esert$o/
-hie&%a (Electrical) 14 May 09 10:30
-ha&"s esert$o/,
I ha)e see& that ocu%e&t i& the past, !ut &ot >uite sure ho# i they co%e up #ith the '088 or '
000 $actors' 2lso, ho# ca& these $actors !e applie to calculate, electrically, the %a/i%u%
$ault curre&t that the !us shoul !e a!le to #ithsta&' I$ I #ere to o!tai& the asy%%etrical
curre&t o$ the !us usi&g the T1B ratio at 112 cycle pea" $ollo#i&g $ault, ca& I %ultiply this
asy%%etrical curre&t #ith the ecre%e&t $actor o$ '088 to get the %a/i%u% $ault curre&t that
the !us %ust #ithsta&++ I #as tal"i&g #ith so%eo&e #ho propose such, !ut I o&'t "&o#
ho# )ali it is a& !ee& loo"i&g $or so%e sort o$ is*proo$ or co&$ir%atio&'
6ghrist (Electrical) 14 May 09 10:3D
-he 1, 0'088, a& 0'000 $actors are eri)e $ro% calculati&g the pea" $orces usi&g
i$$ere&tiatio& o$ the &et si&usoial $orces o& the !us!ars $or the i$$ere&t $aults' I o&'t ha)e
a&y re$ere&ces $or the eri)atio&, !ut I ha)e o&e the calculatio&s %ysel$ to co&$ir% that the
$actors are correct'

esert$o/ (Mecha&ical) 14 May 09 10:40
hi -hie&%a
Yes it oes&'t say #ere the $actors ca%e $ro% I assu%e it #as li&"e to the asy%%etry o$ the
$ault curre&t'
(ot sure #hy you #a&t the !us!ar $ault curre&t #ithsta&, I assu%e that the #ithsta& curre&t
#oul !e eter%i&e !y the te%perature rise or ho# >uic" the heat ca& !e issapate $ro% the
!us!ar a& also the stresses set up !et#ee& a6ace&t !us!ars uri&g a $ault'
?ro% %y e/perie&ce the $ault rati&gs $or !us!ars is either o&e or three seco&s i$ uri&g that
ti%e the te%perature oes&'t get to high a& the %echa&ical stresses are e/cepta!le ie:* they are
&ot per%a&e&tly e$lecte the& the syste% shoul !e o"ay'
I$ you go to the i&e/ o& the li&" I pro)ie i& the pre)ious post there are sectio&s o& the
curre&t rati&gs o$ !us!ars'
http:11###'copperi&$o'co'u"1!us!ars1pu!22*copper*$or*!us!ars1sec3'ht%
esert$o/
-hie&%a (Electrical) 14 May 09 11:09
Eesert$o/,
-he reaso& #hy i #as loo"i&g $or the short*circuit #ithsta& capa!ility is that #e ha)e o&e o$
the !uses i& our syste% #hich co%es pretty close to the esig&e electrical curre&t rati&g, a& I
#as &ot certai& i$ the sa%e rati&g is ae>uate gi)e& the prese&t co&$iguratio&' -hrough tal"i&g
#ith a $ello# e&gi&eer, he suggeste that the '088 $actor ca& !e use to erate the total $ault
curre&t i%pacti&g the !us, a& i'% o a little soul searchi&g to see i$ i&ee his suggestio& is
)ali a& i$ the sa%e approach #as !ei&g use else#here'
esert$o/ (Mecha&ical) 14 May 09 11:43
:i -hie&%a
I& that case I #oul use the $or%ula $or:* 7hort 3ircuit :eati&g o$ 4ars i& the seco& li&" I
poste earlier'
-he ti%e t calculate $ro% this %ust !e greater tha& the short circuit ti%e rati&g $or the syste%'
esert$o/
6ghrist (Electrical) 14 May 09 1D:31
-he 0'088 is applica!le o&ly $or the short circuit $orce calculatio&, &ot $or the ther%al rati&g' It
has to o #ith the $act that the curre&ts i& a6ace&t !uses uri&g a 39 $ault are &ot 100P out o$
phase li"e they are uri&g a 9*9 $ault'

patric"D981 (Electrical) 1. May 09 10:01
-he reaso& #hy i #as loo"i&g $or the short*circuit #ithsta& capa!ility is that #e ha)e o&e o$
the !uses i& our syste% #hich co%es pretty close to the esig&e electrical curre&t rati&g, a& I
#as &ot certai& i$ the sa%e rati&g is ae>uate gi)e& the prese&t co&$iguratio&'
Ii& orer to !e assure that the !us i& >uestio& is i& co%plie&ce #ith 80. you &ee to loo" at the
co&ti&ous curre&t rati&g, the short c"t rati&g, chec" that the !us )oltage graie&t a& ther%al
e/pa&sio& are o"'
You #ill &ee to calculate the total )ectorial $orce o& the !us, the& you ca& chec" the %a/ spa&
!ase o& !us stre&gth, !us e$lectio&, a& i&sulator stre&gth' You #ill also ha)e to "&o# #hat
loai&g istrict you are i& light, %eiu%, hea)y' You also &ee to "&o# #hat type o$ )i!ratio&
a%pers are i&stalle'
you ca& chec" the $ault curre&t !y
I,3@10A8@2@JlogU(-$*20VH1Q)1(-i*20VH1Q)W1tKA'.