[quote="vinasp"]Hi everyone,

If it makes no sense when interpreted in a literal way, then why not interpret
it in a figurative way?
The knife is a symbol of wisdom. And attaining arahantship is psychological dea
th.
They seem to love this sort of word-play, but it is often impossible to transla
te.
Regards, Vincent.[/quote]
it makes a beatiful simile, but whether this is what was meant in the sutta is i
mpossible to establish
------------------------------------------------------------
as i stated in a deleted comment it's not about [u]omniscience[/u], why [b]daver
upa[/b] did it i have no idea, abusing moderator rights must be a pleasant exper
ience
alright i will repeat it, it's about mind reading, which has more to do with int
uition
[quote="Samannaphala sutta (DN 2)"]
Mind Reading
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from d
efects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs
and inclines it to knowledge of the awareness of other beings. He knows the awar
eness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awa
reness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind witho
ut passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind
with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He disce
rns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as
a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, an
d a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlar
ged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind. He discerns an excelled
mind [one that is not at the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an u
nexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a concentrated mind as a conce
ntrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind. He discerns
a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind
. Just as if a young woman or man fond of ornaments, examining the reflection of
her own face in a bright mirror or a bowl of clear water would know 'blemished'
if it were blemished, or 'unblemished' if it were not. In the same way with his
mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, p
liant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability the monk directs and
inclines it to knowledge of the awareness of other beings. He knows the awarenes
s of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awarene
ss. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without p
assion as a mind without passion... a released mind as a released mind, and an u
nreleased mind as an unreleased mind.
[/quote]
[quote="Uposatha sutta (KN : Ud 5.5)"]When the night was (yet further) advanced
and the last watch had ended, as dawn was approaching and the night was drawing
to a close, a third time the Venerable Ananda arose from his seat... and said to
the Lord: "The night is far advanced, revered sir, the last watch has ended; da
wn is approaching and the night is drawing to a close and the bhikkhus have been
sitting for a long time. Revered sir, let the Lord recite the Patimokka to the
bhikkhus."
"The gathering is not pure, Ananda."
Then the Venerable Mahamoggallana thought: "Concerning which person has the Lord
said, 'The gathering is not pure, Ananda'?" And the Venerable Mahamoggallana, c
omprehending the minds of the whole Order of bhikkhus with his own mind, saw tha
t person sitting in the midst of the Order of bhikkhus immoral, wicked, of impur
e and suspect behavior, secretive in his acts, no recluse though pretending to b
e one, not practicing the holy life though pretending to do so, rotten within, l
ustful and corrupt. On seeing him he arose from his seat, approached that person
, and said: "Get up, friend. You are seen by the Lord. You cannot live in commun
ion with the bhikkhus." But that person remained silent.
A second time and a third time the Venerable Mahamoggallana told that person to
get up, and a second time and a third time that person remained silent. Then the
Venerable Mahamoggllana took that person by the arm, pulled him outside the gat
e, and bolted it. Then he approached the Lord and said: "Revered sir, I have eje
cted that person. The assembly is quite pure. Revered sir, let the Lord recite t
he Patimokkha to the bhikkhus."
"It is strange, Moggallana, it is remarkable, Moggallana, how that stupid person
should have waited until he was taken by the arm."
[/quote]
[quote="Kativiya sutta (AN 3.129)"]At one time the Blessed One was abiding in th
e deer park in Isipatana in Benares. The Blessed One putting on robes in the mor
ning and taking bowl and robes entered Benares for the alms round and saw a cert
ain bhikkhu going for alms, under a fig tree where cattle are bound. He was inte
rnally dissatisfied and his interests were turned out wards, forgetful, not awar
e and distracted the mind straying with uncontrolled mental faculties. Seeing hi
m the Blessed One said: Bhikkhu, do not defile yourself. When you defile yoursel
f an evil smell emanates and it is impossible that flies would not settle.
That bhikkhu advised by the Blessed One in this manner became remorseful. The Bl
essed One after going the alms round and after the meal was over addressed the b
hikkhus: Bhikkhus, I put on robes in the morning and taking bowl and robes enter
ed Benares for the alms round and saw a certain bhikkhu going for alms, under a
fig tree where cattle are bound. He was internally dissatisfied and his interest
s were turned out wards, forgetful, not aware and distracted, his mind straying
with uncontrolled mental faculties. Seeing him I said: Bhikkhu, do not defile yo
urself. When you defile yourself an evil smell emanates and it is impossible tha
t flies would not settle.
That bhikkhu advised by me became remorseful.
When this was said a certain bhikkhu said: Venerable sir, what is defiling, what
is the evil smell and what are flies?
Bhikikhu, the defiling is covetousness, the evil smell is aversion and flies are
evil demeritorious thoughts. That bhikkhu defiling himself and emanating an evi
l smell, that flies should not settle is not possible.
With unprotected eyes and ears and mental faculties uncontrolled,
Flies in the form of greedy thoughts will settle.
The defiled bhikkhu emanates evil smells
Far from extinction, he has destroyed bliss.
In village or in forest not achieving his inner peace,
The fool sets forth followed by flies.
He that is virtuous and wisely attached to appeasemment
Sleeps well having destroyed the flies.
[/quote]
theoretically while teaching asubha bhavana the Buddha could have read the mind
state of at least one monk with suicidal tendencies starting to develop
besides intuition there's common sense, being seasoned meditator and samana he m
ust have been aware of possible adverse effects of this type of practice, enhanc
ed with his power of conviction, and cautioned the monks or not taught it at all
.
that he didn't expect such an outcome looks like naivety and carelessness, it go
es without saying that if a disciple gets harmed by the teaching, one way or ano
ther the teacher is responsible
also considering Buddha's famous skill in means, the ability to tailor his Dhamm
a talks to the audience, the sutta describes quite a failure in its application,
because the community was obviously unfit for this particular teaching

it's just that this episode stands in triking contrast with the passages where t
he Tathagata is extolled as almost a supreme creature
__________________________________________________________________________
[quote="vinasp"]Hi everyone,
If it makes no sense when interpreted in a literal way, then why not interpret
it in a figurative way?
The knife is a symbol of wisdom. And attaining arahantship is psychological dea
th.
They seem to love this sort of word-play, but it is often impossible to transla
te.
Regards, Vincent.[/quote]
that makes a beautiful simile, but whether this is what was meant in the sutta i
s impossible to establish
----------------------------------
as i stated in a moderator deleted comment [u]it's not about omniscience[/u]
alright i will repeat it then, it's about mind reading which has more to do with
intuition
[quote="[url=http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html]Samann
aphala sutta (DN 2)[/url]"]Mind Reading
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from d
efects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs
and inclines it to knowledge of the awareness of other beings. He knows the awar
eness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awa
reness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind witho
ut passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind
with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He disce
rns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as
a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, an
d a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlar
ged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind. He discerns an excelled
mind [one that is not at the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an u
nexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a concentrated mind as a conce
ntrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind. He discerns
a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind
. Just as if a young woman or man fond of ornaments, examining the reflection of
her own face in a bright mirror or a bowl of clear water would know 'blemished'
if it were blemished, or 'unblemished' if it were not. In the same way with his
mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, p
liant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability the monk directs and
inclines it to knowledge of the awareness of other beings. He knows the awarenes
s of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awarene
ss. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without p
assion as a mind without passion... a released mind as a released mind, and an u
nreleased mind as an unreleased mind.[/quote]
[quote="[url=http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.05.irel.html]Upo
satha sutta (KN : Ud 5.5)[/url]"]When the night was (yet further) advanced and t
he last watch had ended, as dawn was approaching and the night was drawing to a
close, a third time the Venerable Ananda arose from his seat... and said to the
Lord: "The night is far advanced, revered sir, the last watch has ended; dawn is
approaching and the night is drawing to a close and the bhikkhus have been sitt
ing for a long time. Revered sir, let the Lord recite the Patimokka to the bhikk
hus."
"The gathering is not pure, Ananda."
Then the Venerable Mahamoggallana thought: "Concerning which person has the Lord
said, 'The gathering is not pure, Ananda'?" And the Venerable Mahamoggallana, c
omprehending the minds of the whole Order of bhikkhus with his own mind, saw tha
t person sitting in the midst of the Order of bhikkhus immoral, wicked, of impur
e and suspect behavior, secretive in his acts, no recluse though pretending to b
e one, not practicing the holy life though pretending to do so, rotten within, l
ustful and corrupt. On seeing him he arose from his seat, approached that person
, and said: "Get up, friend. You are seen by the Lord. You cannot live in commun
ion with the bhikkhus." But that person remained silent.
A second time and a third time the Venerable Mahamoggallana told that person to
get up, and a second time and a third time that person remained silent. Then the
Venerable Mahamoggllana took that person by the arm, pulled him outside the gat
e, and bolted it. Then he approached the Lord and said: "Revered sir, I have eje
cted that person. The assembly is quite pure. Revered sir, let the Lord recite t
he Patimokkha to the bhikkhus."
"It is strange, Moggallana, it is remarkable, Moggallana, how that stupid person
should have waited until he was taken by the arm."[/quote]
[quote="Katuviya sutta (AN 3.129)"]
At one time the Blessed One was abiding in the deer park in Isipatana in Benares
. The Blessed One putting on robes in the morning and taking bowl and robes ente
red Benares for the alms round and saw a certain bhikkhu going for alms, under a
fig tree where cattle are bound. He was internally dissatisfied and his interes
ts were turned out wards, forgetful, not aware and distracted the mind straying
with uncontrolled mental faculties. Seeing him the Blessed One said: Bhikkhu, do
not defile yourself. When you defile yourself an evil smell emanates and it is
impossible that flies would not settle.
That bhikkhu advised by the Blessed One in this manner became remorseful. The Bl
essed One after going the alms round and after the meal was over addressed the b
hikkhus: Bhikkhus, I put on robes in the morning and taking bowl and robes enter
ed Benares for the alms round and saw a certain bhikkhu going for alms, under a
fig tree where cattle are bound. He was internally dissatisfied and his interest
s were turned out wards, forgetful, not aware and distracted, his mind straying
with uncontrolled mental faculties. Seeing him I said: Bhikkhu, do not defile yo
urself. When you defile yourself an evil smell emanates and it is impossible tha
t flies would not settle.
That bhikkhu advised by me became remorseful.
When this was said a certain bhikkhu said: Venerable sir, what is defiling, what
is the evil smell and what are flies?
Bhikikhu, the defiling is covetousness, the evil smell is aversion and flies are
evil demeritorious thoughts. That bhikkhu defiling himself and emanating an evi
l smell, that flies should not settle is not possible.
With unprotected eyes and ears and mental faculties uncontrolled,
Flies in the form of greedy thoughts will settle.
The defiled bhikkhu emanates evil smells
Far from extinction, he has destroyed bliss.
In village or in forest not achieving his inner peace,
The fool sets forth followed by flies.
He that is virtuous and wisely attached to appeasemment
Sleeps well having destroyed the flies.
[/quote]
in theory while preaching the asubha bhavana technique the Buddha could have rea
d the mind state of at least one monk with suicidal tendencies starting to devel
op
besides intuition there's common sense, being seasoned meditator and samana he p
robably must have been aware of possible adverse effects of this type of practic
e, with his power of conviction to enhance them, and cautioned the monks or not
recommended it at all
that he didn't expect such an outcome looks as naivety and carelessness, it goes
without saying that when disciples get harmed by the teaching, the teacher one
way or another is responsible
also considering Buddha's famous skill in means, the ability to tailor his Dhamm
a lectures to the audience, he must have known what and how to preach to that pa
rticular community so it benefits from the teaching, but the sutta describes qui
te a failure in doing so, because the community was obviously unfit for this par
ticular teaching
it's just that this particular episode stands in striking contrast with passages
which extoll Tathagata as almost a supreme creature