PV System Values: Solar Energy Needs Electrical Storage

Now
Joseph McCabe, PE
Agosto 31, 2012 | 35 Comments
Dramatic cost reduction in photovoltaics (PV), combined with lower electrical storage costs from batteries for the
automotive industry, are creating new business opportunities for grid-tied PV systems that include energy storage.
This article addresses the technical and economical justification for electrical storage with PV and what it means for
the PV industry.
Why Storage
In 2002 the California Energy Commission Public Interest Energy Research (CEC PIER) funded an investigation into
the value of electrical storage combined with PV by Dr. Richard Perez of the State University of New York Albany.
This work was intended to address the intermittency associated with PV technology. Intermittency is the reduction of
solar output caused by the movement of clouds over PV modules. Dr. Perez came up with the term Solar Load
Control (SLC).
A small amount of electrical storage has great value for grid-tied PV. For commercial buildings with PV, small amounts
of storage can ensure a demand reduction value on the utility bill (a similar demand reduction can be obtained from
energy management systems turning off non-essential equipment). A small amount of deployable electrical storage
or a demand reduction strategy can provide more value to the PV system owner and the utility.
At the time, this research concluded that when extrapolating solar load control utility-wide, 104 MW of direct load
control provided a firm 249 MW peak reduction from PV (see Figure 1 below). In collaboration with Tom Hoff of Clean
Power Research, Dr. Perez has also shown that intermittency of less than 15 minutes can be minimized with a
portfolio of PV systems dispersed geographically within a 10 km X 10 km area.
Figure 1: In the ideal situation at left, peak load is reduced by the full installed PV capacity with no disruption from
clouds. PV output may be reduced before the end of peak period because of clouds, reducing the achievable
demand reduction (middle). By shedding load in response to the reduced PV output due to clouds, the solar load
control restores the full demand reduction (right).
The CEC PIER funded two PV demand reduction research and development projects during the same time period as
the studies on load control. One project developed the ability for an inverter to dispatch stored electrical energy in
batteries upon a signal. The other project deployed a two-axis PV tracker system to supply power directly to irrigation
pumps upon a signal the pumps would be turned off, thus sending all PV electricity as peak electrical production to
the utility if necessary. These projects had challenges regarding the signal, the security of the signal and who owned
the signal. (Dispatchable techniques will be discussed in Part II.)
Ten years later, this CEC PIER PV research and development work is proving to be quite valuable to address
intermittency concerns for large penetration of PV technologies at the utility level. Lower costs for electrical storage
technologies due to increased interest in hybrid and electric vehicles are driving the cost-effective economics of PV
with electrical storage.
Utilities are investigating various strategies to levelize the electrical production from PV and wind including smart grid,
energy storage, microgrids and more. The following is a resource glossary to help the reader navigate the confusing
nomenclature of energy storage: Direct Load Control (DLC), Demand Response (DR), Demand Side Management
(DSM), Distributed Energy Storage System (DESS), Dynamic Demand Control (DDC), Grid to Vehicle (G2V), Vehicle
to Grid (V2G), Variable Energy Resources (VER), Critical Peak Pricing (CPP), Critical Peak-time Rebate (CPR),
Advanced Metering Infrastructure (AMI), Real-time Pricing (RTP), Time of Use (TOU), and Day Ahead Demand
Response Program (DADRP).
Todays Storage Costs
At Intersolar 2012 SMUD reported that certain storage technology appears to be below the $400/kWh threshold for
cost-effective utility storage. Driven by plug-in hybrid and electric vehicles (PHEV), future stationary applications, like
lithium-ion storage, promise to be under $400 per kilowatt hour ($/kWh) including balance of plant costs for power
electronics and utility interconnection.
Different energy storage technologies and their current costs broken out by system size have been presented by the
Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) and are shown in Figure 2. Figure 2 shows the installed capacity costs in
dollars per kilowatt ($/kW). The difference between $/kW and $/kWh includes the amount of time the storage is used
over the system lifetime including all costs. These costs are constantly being lowered, with correspondingly higher
and higher values being discovered by the utilities.
Figure 2: Summary of installed energy storage system costs in $/kW by size and type. (Courtesy of EPRI, Source:
EPRI 2011 Energy Storage Cost Data Base; EPRI 2012 Energy Storage Cost Benchmarking Report. Estimates are in
2012 dollars and do not reflect regional cost differences across the US. Not all applications and technology options
are represented. Site specific and application specific costs can vary significantly.)
Research Driving Storage Costs Even Lower
New federally funded research promises to reduce the levelized cost of electrical storage technology. The Advanced
Research Projects Agency-Energy (ARPA-E) recently announced awards for projects that are designed to reduce
storage technology costs, including: Fords High Precision Life Testing of Automotive and Grid Storage Batteries; ITN
Energy Systems Advanced Vanadium Redox Flow Battery, Energy Storage Systems Iron Flow Battery, TVNs
Hydrogen-Bromine Electrical Energy Storage System, Materials & Systems Researchs Advanced Sodium Battery,
and a slue of other battery projects including sensor, temperature regulation, energy management and other
promising cost-effective solutions.
The Department of Energy (DOE) is also currently funding various smart grid and energy storage solutions for PV
projects. On September 1, 2011, the DOE SunShot Initiative announced the selection of eight projects under the
Solar Energy Grid Integration Systems Advanced Concepts (SEGIS-AC) program to receive $25.9 million in total
funding. The awardees included:
Advanced Energy will develop, demonstrate, and commercialize ramp control by using energy storage,
islanding detection, and synchrophasor technologies
Alencon will develop, demonstrate, and commercialize a drastically cost-reduced PV system with a centralized
inverter system
Delphi will develop and demonstrate a modular, cascaded, multilevel PV inverter architecture to lower
manufacturing costs
EPRI will develop, implement, and demonstrate smart-grid ready PV inverters with grid support functionality,
utility communication, and control link.
GE Global Research will demonstrate a systems-level cost reduction approach for the module-embedded PV
microinverter
Satcon will develop and demonstrate a PV inverter control architecture with automatic voltage control
capabilities
SolarBridge will develop an innovative PV alternating current (AC) module that consists of an integrated
universal dock with high-reliability
University of Hawaii will develop and demonstrate utility-controlled, smart grid-enabled residential PV inverters
at two widely different utilities.
Why Now
Cost-effective PV systems began in space in the late 1950s, which were used in remote off-grid systems and by the
telecommunications industry. When net metering arrived in the late 1990s, large amounts of PV became grid-tied.
Some grid-tied systems included battery back ups in the late 1990s to early 2000s, partially due to confusion
regarding reliability of the grid and PV. Since then, most grid-tied PV does not include battery back up except for
survivalist or critical load concerns.
Utility interest for increased capacity from PV, and the corresponding interest in electrical storage, is being driven by
intermittency, green house gas (GHG) regulations, sustainable energy goals, planning for PHEV customers,
renewable energy portfolio standard (RPS) compliance, distribution system capacity, and utility peak load
management concerns. Increased utility scale capacity from both wind and solar come with technology specific
challenges that are also driving interest in electrical storage including:
In the wind sector, many analysts have concerns about the reliability of forecasting, concerns about ramp rates, off-
peak production times, and have a perception about unpredictable production during peak demand periods.
In solar, analysts believe that it has a peak period that is generally 4 to 5 hours before the utility peak period, and
also have concerns about ramp rates.
The Sacramento Municipal Utility District (SMUD) is now researching PV storage technology with pilot projects. At
Intersolar 2012 SMUD reported that on top of their existing generating capacity of 3,300 MW, they are interested in
500 to 800 new MW of PV in the next five years. At these large capacity levels, it will not be acceptable for clouds to
minimize energy production, therefore SMUD is moving forward with pilot projects including residential PV and
electrical storage, utility sited PV with storage, a residential energy smart community project, solar EV charge port
with storage, and a microgrid with energy storage demonstration project. (REWorld has previously written about
SMUD energy storage activities here: Utility Works to Unlock Smart-Grid Potential of Solar-Storage.")
In addition to the utility factors driving the need for storage, new applications and benefits of storage have been
identified and investigated including central storage, distributed storage and location specific storage. Some of the
benefits from these various applications are listed in Figure 3 provided by Jim Eyer of Strategen Consulting.
Figure 3: Various benefits of storage by sector. Courtesy of Jim Eyer of Strategen Consulting.
The value of storage in comparison to the cost of storage at $400/kWh are reflected in Figure 4 below. Transmission
distribution deferral and aggregation values are clearly already above the $400/kWh threshold. When adding up all
these values, storage combined with PV is now providing economic incentives to the utility.
Figure 4: Values of storage per application, courtesy of SMUD, July 9th 2012 Intersolar presentation by Mark
Rawson, originally attributable to EPRI.
As the cost of PV continues to fall, it increasingly is becoming a generating resource to utilities. Electrical storage has
been proven cost effective in hybrid electric vehicles, off-grid PV systems, and is now being investigated in utilities
that have large portfolios of wind and solar technologies.
Cost-effective electrical storage technologies driven by research and development is increasing the value and market
for PV across the nation. These storage approaches are expanding the grid-tied market and address utility concerns
that include intermittency, capacity and other policy-driven goals. Researchers should now investigate the value of
retrofitting storage on PV systems, if utilities can benefit and if PV inverter companies can include dispatchable
electrical storage options in future products. If trends continue, we will be seeing lots of PV combined with electrical
storage in the near future.
Please comment below and help influence the next part of this two-part article. Part II will address a new PV business
model which promises to capitalize on electrical storage, utility values and smart grid technologies. Thanks in
advance, hope this helps.
We stand on the shoulders of giants who come before us in these efforts; thanks for all the help developing this
article including the work of Dr. Richard Perez, Jim Eyer, Mark Rawson, Dan Rastler, SMUD, the CEC, EPRI and
many others.
Lead image: Solar panels via Shutterstock
35 COMMENTS REGISTER TO COMMENT
BRIAN DONOVAN
20 de Julho de 2014
That 15 minute time span your are talking is normally called spinning reserve or reserve. This is the
application for all those used ecar batteries. Right now we waste between 3-and 20% of our fossils fuels
on spinning reserve. (I would love good numbers, mine are all footnotes). Sniping reserve generators
must literally be spinning, so any change in voltage of phase is strongly resisted by the inertia ot the
generator. Electronics can do this with essentially zero wasted energy.
Spinning reserve get's paid very high prices for just being ready, and electronic reserve deserves the
same.
This is NOT a solar or renewable caused problem. Solar and wind are highly predictable, including
clouds, and the large and more solar and wind we get, the less it will vary or be effected by clouds.
The need for spinning reserve comes for those stupid customers who will not use energy as predicted.
Demand is more unpredictably variable than solar or wind over 10% of the total demand.
I repeat, intermittency of solar and wind is minor and irreverent. Demand is more unpredictable and
variable.
26M$ is pathetic for solar research. versus 700M for nuclear even after 50 years.
http://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2013/04/f0/FY%202014%20Budget%20Request.pdf and god
knows what for fracking and fossils.
Your table is false. Centralized storage is unable to cope with rapid grid fluctuations. The great east
coast blackout proved this. The inherent delay in the grid makes it impossible to control the grid
centrally. ONLY distributed storage and response can stop grid blackouts. Your table also claims
central does not have I2R problems, avoided transmission costs reduce T&D costs, ? what bs.
Weather prediction is plenty to integrate solar and wind into the grid, since demand varies more and is
unpredictable.
Batteries are for ecars. When ecars are done with them, and they still have 760% capacity, ecar
batteries are great for spinning reserve. That is the best use. The other use is for local emergency
backup. Finally, the old ecar batteries could be used by individual and large commercial rooftop solar
folks to load shift and make or save money.
Let's hope regulation and business follow that plan.
ANN VOLE
8 de Setembro de 2012
@ JHB : The idea with these lighting units is to have one in each room (with the fire alarm optional for
rooms like the bathroom) and to have the house heating/cooling/HRV(heat recovery ventilation)
controlled separately for each room by this same unit. An infrared detector could be incorporated in it to
measure the floor temperature (and internal ceiling temperature measured) to get an accurate
temperature profile of the room. CO2 detection is part of CO detection so can also be used to detect air
quality along with humidity detection to control the ventilation through the HRV. HRV units usually use
brushless electronically controlled DC motors (many times as efficient) and last longer) so HRV fans can
be located in each room instead of in HRV unit (a flow detector can be used to match the flow of the
opposite flow) or an even more radical idea of an HRV for each room (they are a bit expensive so the
increase in efficiency is likely not enough to justify the extra expense). This idea came to me on a quest
to make houses without the need for utilities and using high insulation and high air-tightness to
compensate for the lack of solar in city homes with a building 4 feet to the south of your house. In such
a situation, there is a bit of solar but only for a short time in the day on the roof so electrical energy is at
a premium and so is concentrating thermal solar for hot water and some heating. It can still be
applicable to grid customers though for safety and security during power outages and of course
building energy efficiency (no matter the source of the heat). An interim system I am planning to use
incorporates a tankless condensing natural gas water heater as the source of thermal energy to be
replaced later with concentrating thermal solar panels later. A stratified hot water storage tank will store
the 'used' hot water in the HRV that replaces the furnace until I add the radiant floor heating in each
room. check out PassivHaus and "1 watt house"
JOE BARNES
8 de Setembro de 2012
Ann, thanks for that very informative post. Once you have developed your Led lighting system please
tell us all about it and how much you require to light a three bedroom home.
Scott, may I also thank you for your information, I did not realise that the idea would be feasable. I will
look up the site shortly.
ANN VOLE
7 de Setembro de 2012
@ JHB : the biggest problem with low voltage is the amperage squared is used to calculate the energy
loss in the wires. If you drop the voltage by 10 times (125v to 12.5v), you increase the energy loss in
the wires by 100 times (10 x 10) or with a wire that is 100 times as thick in cross-sectional area will have
the same loss as the original wire using the 125v. This can be solved by putting the battery close to or
inside the appliance using the energy but you still have to connect the batteries to the source (solar?
wind? fuel burning generator?) so you are still stuck with a high amperage, thick-expensive wire
problem. I am hoping to design units for homes that provide light (LED), occupancy detection (turns on
the lights and heat/cool only when needed), fire alarm, and a small sealed battery with charging
circuitry. This unit would receive 125 v AC from a "micro grid" of the solar panels that only is powered
when the sun is shining and the small battery would take care of the lighting in the rooms. Some
inverters will detect electrical need so plugs can be hooked to such inverters and they will only operate
when someone plugs stuff in (and powered by bigger batteries located in a protected box outside the
house). More things can also be powered by rechargeable batteries (like power tools) and only charged
up when an energy source is available. Like what has already been mentioned in this thread, thermal
storage can keep your refrigerator cold over night and your hot water tank hot all night and only be
using energy when the sun is shining. This local storage is great for customers of the grid but only if
they pay different rates based on solar or wind energy availability. Otherwise, it is not part of the
discussion of grid management but rather how to no longer need the grid (which power companies
obviously do not like to hear).
SCOTT SKLAR
7 de Setembro de 2012
Joe, there is a big movement here for DC current, just like ib you car or an RV which would be very
feasible, look at www.nextek.com which has a great video on it. Scott Sklar
JOE BARNES
7 de Setembro de 2012
I am not too deep into this electric storage and have always wondered why we are using high voltages
to provide our household and industrial appliances. Why don't we simply convert to twelve or twenty
four volt battery power so that all our appliances can provide us with our needs without the National
Grid and all the other rubbish that is costing us a fortune to have the use of. Each dwelling could then
be independant of the state once we have purchased our method of renewable energy.Perhaps some
people are already using this method, so please tell me how I can do my cooking using low voltage.
Thank you. Joe.
JOSEPH MCCABE
7 de Setembro de 2012
Thanks to everyone for all the great comments thus far. Here is a recent Bloomberg article that expands
upon energy storage options: http://tinyurl.com/9gc4hgv . I knew there would be flavors of choice
comments for storage; keep them coming.
I will use the comments from this part to help develop the next part, which should be finished after SPI.
Let me know if anyone wants to discuss this at SPI. Thanks again. -Joe Mc.
MARC MICHON
7 de Setembro de 2012
Xantrex WX do anything ya want Solar charge battery pack house Grid tie, off line run off house pack
Charge EV pack automatic grid shut off Should be able to hook EV pack to Generator hook up, draw
from pack I'd have to reread manual WX do just about any function you can think of.
AZMAT MALIK
7 de Setembro de 2012
The term we need to use instead of storage is 'arbitrage'. Private investors should build (if that is
necessary) grid extensions to the remote renewable sites; Once the connection is made the need for
storage declines, since gas turbines can react to short-term demand. Rather than spending so much
R&D $ on all varieties of renewables and storage (ALL of which have significant 'unintended'
consequences .. the kind 'we dont know that we dont know') > why not quieter micro turbines at home or
community level. Wonder if someone can do (or has done) the arithmetic on the viability of small scale
gas turbines vs. PV etc. Hydro storage has a round-trip efficiency of about 70% > better than most
battery technologies. That alone is the practical alternative ... others, such as CAS, are very risky ... no
matter what anyone says >>> I would NOT want the EPA-type rules to apply there" The harm has to be
proven before something can be banned. I would rather use the FDA rule (as misused as it is) 'prove
efficacy and safety before you can sell.'
TECK KEE SHIH
6 de Setembro de 2012
Scott,
I totally agree with you that MW storage is going to be the holy grail of electricity companies but what
AES is doing is playing with fire. Large capacity lithium systems have inherent safety issues that are still
not fully resolved. Individual cell capacity of lithium systems are still too small to be used in MW storage
application. The more cells you link up together, you increase the chances of having something going
terribly wrong.
In this MW storage race, everyone is still at the same starting line. Betting on lithium, is like playing with
fire.
TK
SCOTT SKLAR
6 de Setembro de 2012
This is an important article, and storage is the holy grail of electricity. Companies such as AES (VA) and
Axion Power (PA) are fielding large containerized battery banks tied to electric utility lines. Arbitraging
lower cost electricity to meet electric loads at other times is critical. Storage can also relieve electric line
congestion or constrictions and provide high electric power quality (less surges, sags, and transients.
The cost issue for storage is totally reliant on scale of deployment. Just like energy efficiency, federal
and state regulators need to build in ways to monetize storage if such technologies improve electric
power rate stability, power quality, and overall electric grid reliability. Scott Sklar
Scott Sklar
President
The Stella Group, Ltd.
E-mail: solarsklar@aol.com
Web site: www.thestellagroupltd.com
The Stella Group, Ltd. is a strategic technology optimization and policy firm for clean distributed energy
users and companies. Scott Sklar is Chair of the Steering Committee of the Sustainable Energy
Coalition and serves on the (non-profit) Boards of Directors of, the Business Council for Sustainable
Energy, and the Renewable Energy Policy Project, and The Solar Foundation. Sklar is an Adjunct
Professor at the George Washington University teaching a unique multi-disciplinary sustainable energy
course.
PETER BRADSHAW
6 de Setembro de 2012
"For the record, pumped hydro is the only current grid-level solution. It depends on optimum geology
(elevation differential near a water source) and takes years of planning and construction."
Many, probably most, hydro-electric power plants could be converted to pumped=storage facilities.
There would long-term be a need for bigger grid-tie, and often a below-facility reservoir size increase,
but the capability could be added slowly: most such plants have several turbine-generators, so one at a
time could be converted to bidirectional turbine-pump generator-motor operation, as needed.
ERIK KIEHLE
6 de Setembro de 2012
>erikkiehle - in EV already have DC-DC converter from pack voltage to 12 volt. I
>just hook up a cheap 12v DC to 120 V AC inverter. plug into house circuits I want
>to run. no big deal.
That's one way to do it but still keeps your PV/wind system and inverter offline. Why can't the Inverter
utilize an EV battery pack instead of the grid and utilize the PV/wind source as available for house or EV
recharging.
Essentially in a grid-tie, no battery system if the grid is down your house is without power. I want to know
if there's an inverter that can use the EV as a plug-in battery bank restoring full function.
MARC MICHON
6 de Setembro de 2012
erikkiehle - in EV already have DC-DC converter from pack voltage to 12 volt. I just hook up a cheap
12v DC to 120 V AC inverter. plug into house circuits I want to run. no big deal.
MUKESH BHANDARI
6 de Setembro de 2012
Rich Mignogna - yes Firefly is selling 12V 95-100Ah Group 31 Blocks in tens quantities for evaluation.
By early 2013, larger quantities will be available. 2/4V 100- 300Ah blocks are undergoing testing and
could be available in third quarter of 2013. Please see Firefly website for phone/address etc. Thanks.
ANONYMOUS
6 de Setembro de 2012
One of the technologies considered under former President Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative,
popularly known as "Star Wars" was an enormous laser of some kind -- electron laser or fusion laser or
something -- that might be used to pick off incoming ballistic missiles and zap them out of the sky. The
thing would require an enormous amount of energy at a moment's notice, and the Initiative tried to come
up with a way of storing electrical power on a power plant scale. An old man's memory fails, but it seems
to me that they awarded a contract to somebody at Duke University to assess the feasibility of building a
huge "battery," something that might be several miles in diameter and run like one of these atom
smashers. Does anyone know what ever came of that?
ANN VOLE
5 de Setembro de 2012
an idea I came up with but will never be able to capitalize on is to use street lamp poles to hold storage
batteries and grid interconnections (smart charging and inverter systems controlled by the utilities). The
poles are hollow, have grid wiring, good ventilation, secure, on public land, and located all over
residential areas. Powering street lighting during an outage might also have significant value for public
and traffic safety. Large spiral designed batteries are known to last longer and be relatively cheap to
make but few applications like round batteries... but this use would love round batteries to fit in poles.
ROD NIKULA
5 de Setembro de 2012
erikkiehle - Silent Power, Inc., Baxter, MN makes a residential battery storage unit that can sometimes
be used for grid management and can serve a critical circuits panel during grid outages
CHRISTINA NELSON
5 de Setembro de 2012
The thermal energy consumption of a home is more than 55% of total energy consumed. This would
greatly reduce the amount of electrical storage required. Now, if a house or commercial building had hot
and cold thermal storage, then a low temperature freon turbine (Ormat already does this with solar
ponds) could be used to make the eletricity.
RYAN HARBERT
5 de Setembro de 2012
Interesting concept Christina, and I can see some advantages to thermal storage, but markets will
demand more flexibility than that. Somebody is going to want to turn on an (electric) light at night, so
we've got to find a way to store electric energy, and ultimately get it all (or a portion of it) back as
electric energy.
CHRISTINA NELSON
5 de Setembro de 2012
How's this for scale: Only 10,000 homes with 5,000 gallons of hot water storage. Each house has 245
kw of storage for hot water and space heating. 10,000 homes would have 2,445,780 kw of storage
which is 2,446 MW or 2.4 GW.
RYAN HARBERT
5 de Setembro de 2012
Whoever figures this storage thing out at a grid level is going to be rich. it is the last big technical
bottleneck preventing more widespread rewnewables deployment (politicies and financial issues aside).
I will jump in with others in saying that pumped hydro looks to be one of the best tried and true solutions
we have,... but finding the physical space for those hydro projects is a big challenge, and we need a lot
of them to address the problem at grid scale.
ERIK KIEHLE
5 de Setembro de 2012
I don't want my EV or PHEV's battery to be available for GRID demand as increasing the
charge/discharge cycles will shorten battery life. However I WOULD like to have it as a plug-in battery
bank for grid outages. Are there any residential inverters that offer this plug & play "sometimes" battery
bank option?
ANN VOLE
5 de Setembro de 2012
@ christina-nelson-45845 and Joel_Fairstein The PV people totally ignore the solar thermal industry.
The addition of thermal storage to a solar thermal collection system is very low cost and provides all the
'solar load control' you will need... the solar peak can also be matched with the load peak too and
eliminate a lot of the need for make-up energy that fuel and hydro dams provide allowing solar to
contribute close to 90% of the electricity needs of a grid (10% being extreme rapid use fluctuations -
flywheel storage would be good to fix that). This does not address the fluctuations of PV and Wind
inputs though but adds extra economics to go with solar thermal over PV for large scale operations.
Note that Spain has been leading the way with this form of storage for years and now most new solar
thermal collection systems include some thermal storage. Regarding the "mag-lev weight system", most
rocks are similar to aluminum in density but iron is much higher (about 2.5 times the densest common
rocks as in 7.87 compared to 3.1 g/m^3). I had the idea of lifting the house with hydraulic rams for
weight-elevation storage.
MARC MICHON
5 de Setembro de 2012
Rich Mignoga - V2G storage fantasy V2G works well I have run my house off my EV several times
during power outage i guess V2House. i can send to grid also. But why? My furnace worked while
others in the neighborhood had no heat Where V2G and Solar does not work is with smart grid as smart
meters deployed in California Are not compatible with either. smart meters are not capable of Net
metering 2 way flow of electricity. In CA when you get solar the smart meter has to be changed out to a
non smart meter NEM meter. Rod N - yes I think valuable for Industrial customer. I had a customer on a
solar bid a few years ago that his demand charges were over one half of his bill. Solar wouldn't help him
as high demand was early in the morning. But if he had battery pack,charge at $.05 kwh, pull high
demand off pack he would save $2,000 a month. Think I'll run some numbers. I think 2 year payback
give him $48,000 pack @ $400Kwh current LiFePo Kwh price Elite power solutions, if need that large
pack as only need to draw start up welding units. I think a battery pack would save him more than solar
and faster pay back lower initial cost. bob-plugh1 - yes large users pay less per Kwh but they have to
pay demand charges which increase cost above case add total bill instead of $.05 Kwh customer paying
$.11 kwh. mukesh-bhandari - are those FireFly batteries commercially available yet? christina-nelson-
45845- where can i find more info on solar heating cooling? small scale mostly
CHRISTINA NELSON
5 de Setembro de 2012
Before any energy is stored as electricity, as much energy as possible should be stored as thermal
energy. That is: hot water, cold water and/or ice. Water storage can be installed for less than $1.00 per
gallon. 21 gallons ($21.00) of water is 175 pounds. Water at 120 F used for heating a building will cool
20 F as it passes through the heating coil. 175 pounds X 20 F is 3,500 btu which is equal to 1 KW for
only $21.00. What is the shelf life of water? Thermal storage can be used for potable hot water, space
heating and clothes drying. Cold water is used for air conditioning; ice is used for air conditioning and
40 F refrigeration. Thermal energy storage will provide excellent load leveling by turning the heat
source or cold source on and off and using the stored energy when the wind is calm or the sun is not
shining. I am an inventor looking for partners or sponsors who are interested in intellectual property that
will provide a vehicle to expand into new markets. I have developed technology in air-to-air heat
recovery, solar heating and cooling, dehumidification in industrial freezers, desiccant dehumidification,
thermal electric systems, improved ground source heat pump systems, improved solar distillation,
lumber drying, crop drying and desiccant dehumidification and cooling.
JOEL FAIRSTEIN
5 de Setembro de 2012
The article makes an obscure and not particularly compelling case for the necessity of 'solar load
control,' before segueing to a list of ARPA-E funded solutions. What we need is load control for the
entire grid within which solar is presently a bit player. For the record, pumped hydro is the only current
grid-level solution. It depends on optimum geology (elevation differential near a water source) and takes
years of planning and construction. Perhaps one or more of the ARPA-E funded solutions will pan out.
Another grid-scale storage possibility is a mag-lev weight system, where large cement blocks are
transported up an elevation on tracks. The concept seems plausible and within reach:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE92_Ds6XvI
TECK KEE SHIH
5 de Setembro de 2012
The only large scale 20MW Flywheel storage is in Stephentown New York. The supplier Beacon filed for
chapter 11 before completion of the project. It was supposed to be commissioned last year. Flywheel is
more suitable for frequency regulation not for small off-grid system. A VRB redox flow battery system is
most suitable for small micro grid applications. Charging of VRB can be carried out from any renewable
or clean energy sources. It is versatile enough to balance the intermittent supply as well as to supply
power to off grid community over long periods.
ANTHONY HAVENS
4 de Setembro de 2012
What is the true potential of flywheel storage? Why do we hear so little about it? Can someone please
enlighten me? Specifically I am thinking of a small off-grid community of say 10,000 people - would it be
viable?
BOB PLUGH
4 de Setembro de 2012
mukesh-bhandari - at $0.15/kwh (and that is over the lifetime of the batteries) - well, that is more than
the cost of most residential electricity in the United States. While this MAY work for some large industrial
users, it is, at this point, worthless for residential considerations whatsoever.
Here in New Hampshire we have some of the highest electric rates in the country. We pay just a little
less than $0.16/kwh, BUT, not all of that is actual energy cost, part of it (near 50%) is the distribution
cost, so, unless these are at installed at the point of use (i.e. at the residential customer) - that
customer will still get hit with a distribution cost from the power company (they own the power lines).
Tacking that $0.15/kwh PLUS any cost of actual power generation, then ALSO adding in distribution
cost will make this energy cost prohibitive.
Don't forget - large industrial customers typically get price BREAKS based on amount of usage so they
are paying LESS than residential customers.
Sorry - I just don't see this being economically viable - at least not yet.
ROD NIKULA
4 de Setembro de 2012
Battery storage is a valuable tool for the customer and the utility, especially when it is coupled with solar
energy. For the customer it provides back-up power for critical circuits and opportunities to lower their
electric energy bill. For the utility it provides demand reduction, energy arbitrage and new revenue
opportunities in the ancillary services markets. When combined with solar, battery storage is used for
grid stability and to avoid cost shifts between customers. Speaking from an electric cooperative utility's
perspective, I expect battery storage technology to succeed in the marketplace.
ANDREW KAZANTSEV
4 de Setembro de 2012
about storage costs I had already written: by using Air Hydropower (http://airhes.com) we can get a
minimal cost for 1 kWh storage ~ $36-40 (2 km head, hydrogen price $2/kg) - 18 t water is ~100 kWh (3
day household) - compare with other ways here http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/09/got-
storage-how-hard-can-it-be/
MUKESH BHANDARI
3 de Setembro de 2012
Joe, at Firefly we now have a Micro Carbon Foam Battery which will be available in 4V 100Ah+ size,
Flooded type. Now we offer this battery in 12V 100 Ah size. In Bulk, this battery will be available at below
300$/Kwh plus cost of BMS. Cost per kwh over life of the battery will be less than 0.15$. The designed
life can be 20 years. This battery will immediately address many of the issues raised in the article. Small
Energy Storage Systems using MCF Battery with capacity of 500Kwh to 5000Kwh will bring new market
opportunities for Renewable Energy Market. Delivery of Renewable Energy at the Right Time is now
possible. We would like to work with companies who deal in these activities. Thanks.
ANONYMOUS
2 de Setembro de 2012
Regardless of whether the power is solar or wind generated, storage and load leveling are important
problems to resolve if large scale RE is to be successful. However, some of the suggestions proposed
in the article such as battery storage do not currently make sense economically, nor are they likely to
anytime soon. The proposals for peak-pricing or real-time-pricing will not work for residential users with
price controls, and they will only serve to drive away commercial power users.
The only proven, economical large-scale storage technology that currently exists is pumped hydro. The
other cost-effective approach would be to encourage large industrial users of power to relocate closer
to where there is excess power. Many of these large industrial users can ramp their manufacturing
processes up/down each day to meet demand. And they would be happy to relocate for the promise of
lower energy costs. More efficient usage seems smarter than storage.
RICHARD MIGNOGNA
1 de Setembro de 2012
Joe, Nice article. From my perspective it points out that progress is being made... but there is still far to
go. But, please, just don't fall victim to the V2G storage fantasy. That one's not happening, not now, not
ever. Properly managed, PV will have its place, as will CSP and other technologies. None of these can
be all things to the grid. What portion each can assume over time remains to be determined, and is
probably fluid. Cost is an issue. In my opinion, public (taxpayer) funds are better spent on the R&D
needed to bring down the cost of these new technologies rather than providing a subsidy (via ratepayer
funds) to developers which only creates a false sense of grid parity. Regards, Rich Mignoga
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com /rea/news/article/2012/08/electrical-storage-for-solar-
energy-now-part-1