Welding Forum - Heat Input Calculation

8/8/14 Welding Forum > Heat Input Calculation
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pin hole
Ballbearing
pin hole
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Sep 3 2012, 01:45 AM
HELLO GUYS,
I HAVE BEEN GIVEN A HEAT INPUT CALCULATION REGISTER TO ENSURE OUR WELDERS ARE
WORKING IN ACCORDANCE WITH OUR PROCEDURES.
THE PROBLEM I HAVE IS, THE TRAVEL SPEED AND HEAT INPUT NEVER MATCHES UP WITH
OUR WPS.
OUR PQR WAS DONE ON A 4INCH SCHEDULE 80 BUTT.(SS 316)
WQR WAS DONE ON 2 INCH SCHED 10.
WHEN WELDING 6 INCH STAINLESS BUTTS THE TRAVEL TIME AND HEAT INPUT DOES NOT
MATCH OUR WPS TRAVEL TIME AND HEAT INPUT.
WHAT HAPPENS IN THESE SITUATIONS?
CAN OUR 3RD PARTY INSPECTORS ASK US TO DO AN ADDITIONAL WPS.
IS THE DIFFERENCE IN PIPE SIZE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION WITH REGARDS TO TRAVEL
TIME HEAT INPUT.
PLEASE ADVISE.........
THANX
Sep 3 2012, 11:48 AM
Pinhole,
Firstly why on earth would you do welder quals on 50 nb Sch 10 ?
The idea is to get the greatest diameter range and thickness range out of one test coupon.
Your 100 nb Sch 80 PQR gives you 8.56 mm x 2 = 17.12 mm
50 nb Sch 10 is 2.77 mm which gives your welders a maximum of 5.54 mm
A 50 nb Sch 40 or 80 will give you a maximum of 7.82 or 11.08 mm.
Back to your initial question.
You mention travel time and heat input - travel time or travel speed is part of the heat
input, not separate.
Do your WPS's list a minimum and maximum heat input ? ( a heat input range)
With S/S your maximum heat input needs to be monitored - dependant on the code you are
usually not allowed to exceed the heat input qualified on the PQR.
If you are exceeding it then yes, you will need to qualify a new procedure.
Hope that helps,
Cheers,
BB
Sep 3 2012, 12:52 PM
Ballbearing
Technic Al
Q.C
welderteacher
10062014
Ballbearing ,
All the stainless work on the job is sched 10 stainless. smallest butt 2inch and largest 6inch.
when monitoring welders on the 6 inch pipe work, they alwas exceed the maximum travel
time allowed on the wps which in turn gives you a highier heat input reading.
they have no problem at all with the smaller butts.
amps x volts / travel speed x .06 is the formular i use.
would the parameters(travel speed) and heat input still need to as per wps even though the
diameter of the pipe is large than what we used when qualifying the procedure?
Sep 4 2012, 12:52 PM
Pinhole,
Something doesn't sound right ?
Your 4" PQR was done on thicker material so amps would have been a little more and your
travel speed a little less than what you would have done on a Sch 10 4". (but ultimate heat
input would be similar)
Welding on smaller bore would be faster travel speed (reduced heat input) and even 6"
shouldn't be too much difference.
If your welders can't comply with the travel speed on the WPS it is time to stand behind
them with a big stick. LOL !
If you need assistance send your WPS/PQR to sbrwelding@hotmail.com and I will see if I
can help,
Cheers,
BB
Sep 4 2012, 05:14 PM
Pinhole..........I dont understand the Travel Speed x 0.06...........whats the 0.06 for
I think the easiest is VAT over ROL.........volts x amps x time divided by run out length
Sep 4 2012, 05:28 PM
0.6 is the efficiency factor of the welding process used, thats usually used when calculating
arc energy rather than heat input if i remember correctly?
Sep 4 2012, 06:35 PM
volts x amps over travel speed (mm\second ) x 1000 then x thermic equivalent
T E is 1for sub arc 0.8 for mma mig mag flux core 0.6 tig
doing it without TE is the arc energy
WT
Sep 4 2012, 06:50 PM
This is the one I use WT although I am really confused now
Technic Al
welderteacher
Ballbearing
Technic Al
Ballbearing
Sep 4 2012, 07:09 PM
The Arc Energy is Volts x Amps.....isnt it??
Is the 0.6 the correction factor that used to be part of BS5135 which was designed for
stick welding so the given estimated heat inputs could be used for Sub Arc etc by applying
the correction factor.
I dont think its part of a Heat Input Calculation
VAT / ROL = j/mm / 1000 = Kj/mm
Isnt it?
Surely the numbers inputted and the speed would distinguish between different
processes....which is why SA is a high heat input process and FCW is low..............by
applying a factor you would equalise the processes.
Sep 4 2012, 09:45 PM
Thats what i was taught for arc energy (heat that makes it in to the material)
and heat input
Sep 4 2012, 10:26 PM
Heat input is (amps x volts x 60) divided by (travel speed (mm/min) x 1000)
This will give you a heat input in Kj/mm
Pinholes formula of multiplying amps x volts/travel speed x .06 may give exactly the same
result, I have not checked.
Cheers,
BB
Sep 4 2012, 10:32 PM
WT
Im fairly sure you were taught incorrectly
The arc energy is VAT = joules
Having said that Im open to discussion. EN 1011 should give us the answer but I dont have
a copy.
Sep 5 2012, 12:16 AM
Pinhole has stated he is working to ASME - this is from ASME IX
QW-409 Electrical Characteristics
(a) Heat input [J/in. (J/mm)]
Voltage x Amperage x 60 divided by Travel Speed [in./min (mm/min)]
In the Southern Hemisphere we generally multiply the travel speed by 1000 to give Kj/mm
rather than J/mm
pin hole
rotten_root
tackeruperer
Hope that helps,
Regards,
BB
Sep 5 2012, 01:38 AM
AMPS X VOLTS / TRAVEL X .06
GIVES THE SAME ANSWER AS
AMPS X VOLTS X 60 / TRAVEL SPEED X 1000
ITS JUST A SHORTER WAY OF CALCULATING IT
Sep 5 2012, 06:32 AM
Ball bearing
Do you not devide by 1000 to achieve kj / mm ?
Amps x volts x 60 / travel speed (mm / min) / 1000 = kj/mm
That's how we do it.
RR
Sep 5 2012, 07:16 AM
Hi All
Hope this helps
ARC ENERGY
The amount of heat generated in the welding arc per unit length of weld.
Expressed in kilo Joules per millimetre length of weld (kJ/mm).
Arc energy (kJ/mm)= Volts x Amps
welding speed(mrn/s) x 1000
HEAT INPUT
The energy supplied by the welding arc to the work piece. Expressed in terms of;
arc energy x thermal efficiency factor
Thermal efficiency factor is the ratio of heat energy introduced into the weld to the
electrical energy consumed by the arc
Thermal efficiency factor k of welding processes
SAW x 1.0
MIG/MAG x 0.8
MMA x 0.8
Ballbearing
rotten_root
Technic Al
Ballbearing
Technic Al
TIG x 0.6
Thanks T
Sep 5 2012, 07:52 AM
RR,
Take 180 amps, 22 volts and 240 mm/min.
Calculate your way then calculate my way and see what you get.
Exactly the same answer !
Cheers,
BB
Sep 5 2012, 08:11 AM
Ballbearing,
Gotcha
just another way of doing it
Cheers
Sep 5 2012, 11:12 AM
http://www.twi.co.uk/technical-knowledge/f...and-arc-energy/
Its me thats out of touch........the calculation has changed
I still dont understand where the 60 comes from and why you would use a factor to
equalise the processes.
I must be getting too old for this
Sep 5 2012, 11:55 AM
TA,
The Americans and the British/Europeans do things a lot differently.
The question was originally about ASME IX which does not even mention arc energy.
Heat input as per ASME is as per calculation I posted above.
You think that is confusing - I operate in a world where I am regularly exposed to ASME -
BS/EN - and the crazy Australian codes where nothing is similar,
Roll on retirement,
Cheers,
BB
Sep 5 2012, 12:46 PM
Im confused as to where the 60 came from........Volts x Amps = Watts x time = Joules
So I assume its 60 seconds
So why 60 and not the actual time as in VAT
welderteacher
rotten_root
Technic Al
10062014
try_some_welding
doing my head in..........Ive got some trees to chop down
Sep 5 2012, 09:09 PM
I think you only need to x 60 if your travel speed is minutes and not seconds
Sep 6 2012, 04:54 PM
Here's one for you then,
When using hot wire GTAW for cladding, how do you add the hot wire into the equation?
Let's say it's it's 250A @ 16V for the GTAW and 40A @ 4V for the hot wire.
Travel speed 35 cm/ min
RR
Sep 6 2012, 07:36 PM
RR
Its always been a quandary for me. Theres also Twin and Tandem Sub Arc...do you calc as
two seperate passes or as one arc (especially twin)
I dont know.......as you can see the whole thing has me effed
Welderteacher.......it doesnt say that though
I remain confused
Sep 6 2012, 08:15 PM
Surely if 2 separate arcs are returning to 2 separate returns you have to calculate for both
then average ???
Sep 6 2012, 09:47 PM
QUOTE (Technic Al @ Sep 6 2012, 08:36 PM)
RR
Its always been a quandary for me. Theres also Twin and Tandem Sub Arc...do you calc
as two seperate passes or as one arc (especially twin)
I dont know.......as you can see the whole thing has me effed
...
I remain confused
I reckon you have to "break free" and think of your technical situation.
If it's HAZ grain growth, you calculate the heat input of each arc separately - it's about
Ballbearing
Technic Al
Ballbearing
time at more than about 1100C - just in the millimetres around each arc.
If it's HAZ hardness, it's probably the sum of all arcs in the run, because it's cooling rate
between 800C and 500C which matters
If it's Duplex Stainless Steel you need really the sum of heat inputs of all runs unless the
thing is allowed to cool between runs or the weldment is huge, as it's temperature dwelling
at above about 250C and sigma formation.
Another one to rock the applecart - for strip-cladding you have to think in tems of kJ/mm^2
(not kJ/mm).
What with the strip having width.
For me it's about being able to visualise all that's going on and work-out what's important in
what way.
TS
Sep 7 2012, 04:20 AM
TA,
I was scratching my head as to where the 60 came from.
As WT stated - it is the standardisation of minutes / seconds
180 amps x 20 volts x 60 divided by 400 mm/min = 540 J/mm (0.54 Kj/mm)
Now divide 400 mm/min by 60 and you have 6.666 mm per second
180 amps x 20 volts divided by 6.666 mm/sec = 540 J/mm (0.54 Kj/mm)
Hope that helps,
Cheers,
BB
Sep 8 2012, 12:36 PM
Right BB
So V x A = Watts.........Watt per Second = Joule
Now I know where the 60 comes from
So the old Heat Input VAT (T in secs) divided by ROL is now called Arc Energy
The NEW heat input is Arc Energy x an efficiency factor for the process (when I say new I
mean to me)
So all those years on 5135 etc we were doing it wrong.
Next conundrum.....who decided on the Factors and why is the factor for TIG lower than
MIG / FCW. Ive always considered TIG to be a higher heat input process due to it being
slow.
Sep 8 2012, 01:20 PM
TA,
Now you are confusing me.
Technic Al
Ballbearing
welderteacher
apprentice
I work with ASME which as stated previously does not recognise "arc energy" or "ROL".
We both know there are unfortunately huge differences between ASME and BS/EN but if the
original question was based on ASME then that is what the responses should be based on.
Cheers,
BB
Sep 8 2012, 08:21 PM
I think we have moved on past the original question. We can you know....it is allowed

Incidentally did the OP mention ASME?
Dont worry BB I have a tendency to confuse everyone these days (mostly myself). It
comes with age I think.
Sep 9 2012, 06:17 AM
Sorry TA,
Pinhole had mentioned in a different post that he was working to ASME B31.3,
Cheers,
BB
Sep 14 2012, 11:56 AM
I know that SAW is 1 because the arc is completly covered not letting any heat out.
I would guess it may be down to lower volts for the rest but not sure
Sep 14 2012, 02:32 PM
Hi all,
A Joule, is a power of one watt, applied for a period of one second;
so, ROUGHLY speaking, [the world of welding seems to have forgotten all about power
factor]
Volts x Amps = Watts ... Yeah????
Now then, obviously we need to use KJ [so we divide by 100] as overwise the numbers
would be rather large....
So, for an example; 28V at 300A So, it is 28V x 300A = 8400/100 = 84KJ but this is for ONE
SECOND
Now then, the "60" bit. All this is, is to give us our travel speed in mm per minute.. [mm per
socond would be a bit hard to measure!!!!]
So, it is 84KJ x 60 = 5040KJ divided by our travel speed in mm per minute.
So, say our travel speed was 300mm a minute, it would be;
Technic Al
Uncle D
apprentice
Technic Al
apprentice
Brunson
28V x 300A = 8400/100 = 84KJ x 60 = 5040KJ
Then, the 5040KJ is divided by our travel speed of say, 300mm/min, so 5040/300 gives a
heat input of = 16.8 KJ/mm
So, once again, the complete calculation would look like this;
28V x 300A = 8400/100 = 84KJ x 60 = 5040KJ/300 = 16.8 KJ/mm
Hope this helps!!!
john..
Sep 14 2012, 03:50 PM
John
Apart from weve already been there and done that. I think the 100 should be 1000 to
change J/mm into Kj/mm.
we cant do a bloody sum between us........welders
Sep 14 2012, 03:55 PM
Take a look at this link -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat-affected_zone
Sep 14 2012, 03:56 PM
Hi Al !!!
You are of course right!!!! I have not done this for 20 years!!
john....
Sep 14 2012, 03:59 PM
I have.........and it looks like Ive been doing it wrong

My defence is that some bugger changed it and didnt tell me
Sep 14 2012, 04:53 PM
Still think you are right!!! The laws of physics have not changed!!!!!
john....
Dec 14 2012, 08:21 PM
When do you calculate heat inputs using efficiency factor and when do you not?
boilermaker
try_some_welding
Brunson
Dec 15 2012, 08:51 PM
TA/BB
I will move over and make some space for you if I could remember where I am supposed to
sit!
Dec 18 2012, 03:50 AM
QUOTE (Brunson @ Dec 14 2012, 08:21 PM)
When do you calculate heat inputs using efficiency factor and when do you not?
Look out for the correct and formal answer.
I'll give you an independent alternative one.
"When it makes sense to do so" <-> "when it gives a more practically useful answer" <->
"when it correctly represents what you are concerned about" (any and/or all of these
three)
If you are worried about grain-growth in the HAZ (too high heat input) or hydrogen cracking
(too low a heat input can put you in a "danger zone"), you want heat input. Take the case
that you are concerned about grain growth. What arc energy does not make it into the
weldment does not do any harm. So a higher arc energy is tolerable for TIG with an
efficiency of 0.6 (60% efficient; 40% of arc energy lost without entering weldment) than
for subarc, with efficiency of 1 (100%; all arc energy goes into weldment)
Example - if your maximum heat input were 1kJ/mm, the maximum arc energy of subarc is
1kJ/mm - whereas for TIG an arc-energy of 1.7kJ/mm could be tolerated as this gives
required maximum heat input of 1kJ/mm given the 40% energy loss directly to the
environment.
So you do want to use "heat input" not "arc energy" in this case.
Same would apply to getting a high enough heat input to avoid hydrogen cracking.
An example of when "heat input" does not make sense and you want "arc energy".
If you want to estimate your electricity bill as a part of the cost, you need arc-energy.
As you've paid for any energy lost, regardless of whether or not it goes into the weldment.
As I said previously - you want a measure which is useful in serving a purpose.
Something I mentioned previously - when strip-cladding you need heat-input in kJ/mm^2
(not kJ/mm) as the arc is nothing like a point source of most welding processes and has
width. That just has to be the case - you don't need to reference any Standards or
anything to know that is what's required.
Try Some
Dec 18 2012, 07:42 AM
try some welding, I meant if you are an inspector and you go to a job and are calculating
heat inputs and already have the WPSs, would you use efficiency factor or not.
try_some_welding
From my own point of view in the future I'll just ask the other inspectors or engineers what
way they want it done. (with or without efficiency factor)
Dec 19 2012, 07:21 PM
Brunson - sorry mate. If I recall righty EN's / ISO's use Heat Input and North American
specs use arc energy.
But that is often labelled "heat input" (!).
I used to often have to back-calculate to work out which was meant.
Anyone comment on whether I am right about where heat input and arc energy are cited?
Try Some
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