Interview with Kacem Zoughari

Shidoshi ho Zoran Mijic San Dan

Bujinkan Sojobo Dojo Banja Luka - BiH

Would you be so kind to explain us the importance of form (Gata) in martial arts?

Importance of the form and the Gata, well they are important because the form inside have many
details and those details came from experience of different masters, different Soke, different founder of
the school. Each one has found something in techniques that he received from his Master and its
accumulation of many things that create a way of moving. So in this case they are very important
because they are one of the aspects of tradition and also a code. Code that we need how to read and
interpreted in order to understand what is behind it and before in same time.

Which process is necessary to pass in order to gain very efficient, flexible and ergonomic movement
like ancient masters?

Well like you said, they are ancient Masters, so it takes time in order to reach what they have. I think it
is a time, time and quality of practice. There is no.., I mean my knowledge is limited in this case, but I
think practice comes with time, but time is difficult to measure, we all have our own definition, we all
spend different time, and we all see quality on different ways. Now in order to really reach summit of
the art its summit, so it takes time to get on the top and each step, each movement have to be done in
certain way, so quality and time, and a lot of passion and patient. You have to have it both, I think!

In your work "The movements tradition in classical combat schools of Japan based on ancient scroll"
you indicate the importance of movement that has helped the ancient masters to be effective in the
fight So, what is the main difference in movement through different periods of ancient Japan?

I dont think there is too much different, there are two legs and two arm, and some people can fight
correctly and survive, and some can fight and survive but have them fall on the back?????, some people
can practice and as they practice more they really destroy their body. Each period brings his own
change, the Master who can adapt himself to the shift of the change and go deeper and survive and in
the same time can find someone who will accept the movement, this is a man who understand the
NEED of a time. So it is not question of in this time you move like this, at this time you move like that,
you can do this for a soldier, but for a MASTER whatever the time, whatever the city, whatever the
people he face, he must adapt himself. So, if the classical school and mainly scroll in classical school and
knowledge of classical school is always about adapt yourself and fit to moment, understand the
moment, be ONE with moment, and if you are able to do that you can do technique, if not school that
you practice is just school created for certain type of movement, certain time area, and you just practice
like Sengoku Jidai and you finish in Edo period with a movement of Sengoku Jidai who cannot ? and now
in 21
st
century you practice a way that is not really good for the body, you dont question youself. I mean
classical martial art (fighting) is a question of adaptation, question how to do, how to be more accurate
according the moment where you live. If art is about living present moment, adaptation is a key of
everything. If you practice dead form, hmm.. not dead form, but let say it form cannot allow you to get
free, to open, to accept, to absorb things I think they are not good form.

Lots of people wonder why you have banned the sale of your videos Does the reason for this lie in
concept Tairyu Jiai which strictly orders us not to fight against others Ryu, in order to keep our waza
secret, and would you be so kind to explain us the concept?

Hehehe..I like this question!!

Why I dont sale video?! Because first Im not a salesman! Right on that
Second, its a question of ..well, a man who calls me for a seminar make a risk, that risk is economical
risk, he might bankrupt, he must invite someone, to pay his fee, etc etc
I am really but maybe more than really aware and very anxious about that. For example, when Srdjan
asked me for a seminar in Serbia, he asked me many times. I said to him Are you sure you can make it -
yeah yeah, are you really sure you can make it means that I said to everyone many time I dont
want to be a economical problem for you, I dont want to be economical problem for you, Im afraid of
that, are you sure you can make it, are you sure you can handle it and I always said it at least more
than four - five times, because, I will say it that I take this on seminar, I say it I take this and if there is
more you give me everything, what you have to have is that everything is covered, because I teach you
behind that, I explain it to you, so the tape is only for him. It is like I give him kind of exclusive rights, he
give something I give tape to him. I that why I dont want to people to tape the things, because first; it
doesnt need it, if they really practice they need to use their eyes and memories, this is a way I did! I
never tape the things in Ishizuka Dojo, and even Hatsumi Sensei Dojo! Never ever, why because you
might lost everything, so how you going to do, how you going to do when you lose everything. If you
attach yourself to DVD image, and when you dont have it - what you going to do?

So, Tai Ryu Shi Nai Ashi, I respect very well, but the way I give class and my very limited experience I met
many people from different martial art and I always try on them. Tai Ryu is more like Sengoku Jidai area
and before, you dont do this because they afraid if you lost the name of your school will not be like it
anymore and its banished and in the same time when you fight and you lost, the man in front of you
have seen some techniques of the school, so he can create counter technique. So this is main reason. I
dont care if someone want to try, to challenge me, Im open Im always open, and Im smiling! Im
very happy! Unfortunately not too much people can, now is someone say it I challenge you, Ok come to
see me, Im open, anytime six oclock in the morning if you want. But here again, for example, when
Andrej invited me for the first time I said to him the tape is only for you no sales and only one guy
has sales tape, English guy, I will not say his name. Since then I dont do seminar anymore. It is not
question of business, cause if it was about business, well I have lots of tapes, and do you know how
many people ask me to sale them a tapes, just from Russia one told me we will pay you the price. NO,
so sales are not my thing.

We know that you have made research of many Bujutsu and among them also teachings of Tetsuzan
Kuroda Sensei, would you be able to explain his saying that Soft Kata will produce fast and
disappearing movement ()? How it can be used through our
practice in Ninpotaijutsu?
Well, first of all, Im not student of Mr. Tetsuzan Kuroda sensei, I respect him but Im not his student. If
you become student of Kuroda you need to sign a paper and you are not allowed to teach and
everything. All the way I do its completely different than Kuroda Sensei. I can show you tomorrow the
way they do Kata and everything, of course there are some common points, and common points not
because of him but because of classical schools. They follow certain order, certain rules of fighting, rules
of using the sword, rules of using the body. So this you can find everywhere. Like you said soft kata will
produce fast and disappearing movement well first we practice both side and Kuroda Tetsuzan Sensei
practice for example in case of sword only one side. In case of Jujutsu they practice both side but when
you watch tape and things like that its always from one side. But anyway, they do both side. In Jojutsu I
think they practice both side, in Jutte they practice one side, in Kodachi they practice one side, Im sorry
but I practice both sides. First I try to do same things from right and left. It has to be same! When you
use right and left, people need to say this man is left handed or right handed. These two things are very
important. Number three; you have to have correct form, correct form means correct body structure,
and correct bone structure in same time, you shouldnt bend you back, you head should move as she
wants, you knees should be a line etc etc
All this alignment and structure has to be, has to follow the rules of moving with weapons. And more
you go slowly the more you see details. The more you see details more you are effective. So its not
question of been fast, what Im looking for its to be precise, fast is not this, because when you are fast
you are tired. How can I do seminar with 70 or 80 people more or less I do in same way as private class
with two or four people, my movement should be the same!? If the movement is not the same then is
not good. It have to be same from both side, and it have to be straight from each side. There is old
saying in a scroll, I remember it very well cause when I read that I was pretty much touched in my heart.
It was said that: Slow is smooth smooth is fast. So you have to move in certain way that more you
move slowly it became smooth, and because is smooth it becomes fast, because one cannot see how,
the starting point of the movement, he cannot see what type of the muscle there is. When you practice
form and if the form is correct the way you shift weight of your body from one leg to another and the
way you walk doesnt follow the sport way of doing. Because what you looking in the sport is
immediately effectiveness, you looking for immediate explosiveness of power. In classical martial arts is
opposite. Of course you are looking for what is effective directly, but effective in long term. What you
can do it now, tomorrow should be done better. And in ten years even more better!
In sports you are very good when you are young, you get skill when it takes years, and when you
became old you just experimented. Which means you just gives advice. In martial arts is opposite!
Because in martial arts you are always to give proof. And proof is can you do it now and can you put him
down now?!! Of course there are many ways! Best way is one that allows you to do this, of course
effectively but in the way that you dont hurt your partner, but you let him feel that what you do is really
dangerous. So, yes I did study many martial arts because this is also part of the Ninjutsu, and I just follow
the rules of Ninjutsu. In Ninjutsu you have to be aware of other martial arts, so I study other martial arts.
Not only because its rule of Ninjutsu, but because I like to know and curiosity. Its not curiosity in order
to let other people that I know a lot, I like them so I study them.
I was very interesting on Kuroda Tetsuzan Sensei schools because one of his, actually two of his schools:
Komagawa Kaishin Ryu Kenjutsu and Tamiya Ryu Iai they are from
Kamizumi Ise no Kami line, and they still have the same form. So I was pretty much fund of Kage Ryu,
Shinkage Ryu, Taisha Ryu, and those schools ...Ive try to find form which you can find in Kage Mokuroku
written by Kamizumi Ise no Kami 1566. So I was thinking where we can find those, these days? Most of
the people who practice this school now are more than aware of using the body and Kuroda Tetsuzan
Sensei still keeps the same method of modality of using the body like they used to do period of
Kamizumi Ise no kami sensei, that is why is he so effective and very good. But he is not only one in Japan
who have thing like that. You can find there in Kumo Yoshinori etc etc. Now the good things would be, is
to see those people doing against others styles. And this is what I like. Because doing Kata and been
good in his own school and with your own student its great but this is not martial art then. Bujutsu,
techniques of war, which every country that you are; Africa, Zimbabwe, Brazil, Canada, whatever art you
need to face, its not like; first you need to grab like this, attack like that, and do like this. Those are Dojo
rules. In Bujutsu there are no rules. But I understand that you need rules in order to teach. So I think,
once again in order to gain accuracy and speed in the practice everything depends on three points: first
the form, second the way you shift from one point to another and how, third the process which
you follow through the years in your practice. When you have those three aspects, of course flexibility is
inside; everything is in the form, because the form is the body. When you follow this normally you find,
but after all of these there is one most important aspect is your heart. Why you do that? What is that
you looking for? Your ego! If you are looking for a name, if you are looking for fame, its very difficult to
answer, so you may follow these rules and to become good, but after that you will just be good. You
cannot grow because you just look things from you own perspective and this is not practice of the
classical martial arts. You have to follow certain Nagare, or certain flow, you need to understand
relationships, relationships with a master, and to polish that. So its not just a technique its a whole.
Does the disappearing movement refers to Musoku ?
For example; I have learn one thing and this maybe one thing which is different with many people in the
practice, when I use Japanese words, also it can be French word, English word, Arabic word, I want to
know definition of this word. In the time when she was use it. For that I will check many dictionaries,
many book in order to see what is a definition. So, Musoku most of the people when they take Japanese
books translate as Mu nothingness or without, and Soku Legs, so NO LEGS. But when you say
Musoku no Ho its kind of rules of no legs. For regular Japanese it means nothing as for foreigner. After
you dig in Japanese history you start to find word Musoku Nin, and you will find it in chronicle with
stretch back to Muromachi period, and Musoku Nin is People who doesnt have legs. This can create
confusion, like wow maybe those were people whose legs were cut off etc etc..
Musoku Nin was a name for certain type of warrior who can work for big family, but they didnt have
right to have a name. So they were a samurai, but not real samurai. So these are a first one. After,
Musoku Nin was also a name given to a lot of people who lived in Iga and Koga, two birth place of
Ninjutsu and Ninja, because there was no warlord who ruled, but many samurai family who hold piece
of land that not really belongs to them but they act as it belongs to them. And finally we start to call
Ninja at very beginning of 16 century Musoku Nin people whose legs you dont see. So, we some
researchers in Japan, and historians starts to explain that those people have certain way to walk, to
move their body and to fight that allowed them, that you dont understand how they shift weight of
body from one leg to another. And you can find this already in No theaters because Kanami and Zenami
foundation of No theater and they art was known as Sarugaku. And they have developed very high way
of walking. Of course they were from Iga and Koga family with ninja family background, so they were
already Musoku Nin. Later on Musoku no Ho become method in Jujutsu, Kenjutsu, Sojutsu and most of
classical schools have it, its a method were you use your body in a way you dont let your enemy see a
shift of a body in a way that when you fight see how it works. And this is very important! This is how it
starts. So Musoku no Ho, you can find in different expressions, Kieru Go ki Movement that shot down
himself, Kage Fumi walking in the shadow, Kage Ryu, Togakure Ryu etc etc. So, in the certain way
yes.
Would you explain to us a method of transmitting knowledge within martial arts through three levels:
Taiden, Kuden and Shinden Gokui?
Hey, man you have question, that you are killing me. Its very difficult, because I dont remember what
does it means. In order to transmit knowledge, first you need one master, and master who have
capacity to do something that he really have skills from both sides. If you dont have this.
Second, he needs to find someone who is open to hear, open to receive, open to absorb, and open to
accept, but in same time master need to see in him future. Which means that by what you give to him,
he can dig it more and go deeper. Thats one thing! And this is what we call Taiden body transmission.
And body transmission is how long you stay with your master and everything you feel from him. So its
stay in your body and in same time you going to practice that a long, so it is also like renaissance, like a
recall what you have seen and feel from him. And this is what you have so from him and kept in your
heart, so the actual image this is called Shinden and when you have that you can understand Kuden.
Kuden is what he told you, what he said to you. So, first student never understand what his master has
said, its same with what his fathers has said, he only think that he understand dont do or he will feel it
something on his face, and when he get older he will say it Shut up old men you dont understand me
or my feeling, you are too old, and his father usually will say it to him when you gone have my age you
will understand it. Yeah, Yeah,yeah.
And when you get his age you will say it ohh yes he was right. So Kuden is this, you need certain
experience, certain process to the practice of receiving get betrayed, stubbed, disappointed, happy etc
etc..Through the practice and each time you go to the process which is same as Masters but in different
time, with the different aspects but the inside is the same and in this moment you start to understand
what he said and you understand what he said and you understand what he said after you have
experimented in your body in your heart. You cannot understand him just cause of his words, and that is
why we use to say that Martial arts cannot be thought by words. Its imaginative, its now. If you have to
think of what you gone transmit, or you have to stop, or start by ABC..to put order so that you get
imaginative flow, this is what we call shikki den-direct of course there are many types of DEN; Taiden,
Shinden, Kuden these are mainly things but after that Isshin Den, Isshi Soden, Jikki Den, Nai Den, Kai Den
many many..
So all in all it is super position off the three aspects of the practice that allows you to understand one
day the Master and in same time to walk in his footsteps, when you can do that you are part of legacy
you are part of transmission of something that goes together and you can call this an ART. You can call
this ART when there are many man together who have sacrifice many things and gave the best they
have in order to put a stone and many stones makes a house.
Which is the best method of self-practice? Could you tell us how and what do you practice?
NO! Well, Self practice in two words SELF and PRACTICE, so you practice alone. Problem is if I tell you
how I do, how Kacem Zoughari does, which means; my blood, my flesh, my small muscles, my small
brain. Everyone have different looking at the Art, everyone have different way of feelings, enjoying Coca
Cola and 2 Pac music. So I dont think it will help if I explain how I practice. Anyway I can tell that I
practice, I think for me breathing is practice, standing is practice, talking with people is practice, sleeping
is in certain way practice, going to toilet is practice. Third there is what we call regular practice, how do
you repeat thing, how many times, frequency, quality, what you looking for in the practice and what you
aim in practice-the goal, the objective. When this start to be a little bit on his way this regular practice
need to be integrated in life, in daily life movement, in daily life of talking, in every daily life aspects in
your job, in your relationships with your family, with yourself, so it is attitude, daily life attitude. After
that there is no difference between regular practice and life. At this moment what you do become way
of living and when it becomes way of living you start to reach what is meant by ART. And finally, there is
also some times when you are tired, when you get ill, when your body gets hurt, at this moment you
have to see how you can keep on practice and how you can change, because everything is changing and
this will influence on how you practice but not essence. Essence is continuity, because practicing one,
month, six month one year and then stop is nothing. It have to become one kind of discipline, like
drinking water, if you dont drink, you feel ill and die. This is how I think practice is supposed to be. It is
not like you just do 100 Tsuki, if you can do 10 correct and good with full application of yourself it is
enough. Quality is always better then quantity. This is how I practice!
I think is quality, now people can say it yes its quality but we all can have different opinion about what is
quality.
Which is the proper attitude required for a student of martial arts?
Questions and politeness, patience and lot of courage. And not to be stupid but that is gone be very
difficult cause you can have lots of questions, be polite and have courage but be stupid. It is very difficult
to be born with everything and be rich and beautiful in same time, it is impossible. But I think for
student is necessary to be polite. It is always very nice to talk with someone who is polite, who got good
manners, who is clean, when he go to class his Keiko Gi is always clean, he take the time, he never hurt
he always let the people start, this is already mark or sign of someone who gone grow very deeply in all
aspects, the beautiful flower he will become. Second is patience, when you are very polite you learn to
be patient. Because politeness is actually showing what you are inside, and form of Martial arts is like for
example Safe, if you want to get inside you need good combination, and one of best combinations is
politeness, but take care politeness from a heart not fake politeness, ceremonial politeness. Patient is
very important, because when you are young you want to go fast, and it is impossible, you can learn a
lot but you will need time to adapt, adjust according to many situation, so patient is very important
especially in Ninjutsu which is art of remain patient, always. Patient is needed to understand how to
study and to know how to avoid certain problem and how to absorb. Finally courage, cause is not that
easy, is not that easy. But this is what is good. If it so easy no one would do it.

Mr. Kacem thank you very much for your time and effort.