1

UNITED STATES SENATE

2

Select Committee on Ethics

3

Washington, D.C.
4
5

6 IN RE: ENSIGN INQUIRY

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8
9

10 CONFIDENTIAL DEPOSITION OF
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15 Tuesday, November 30, 2010
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18 Hart Senate Office Building
19 Suite 220
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24 REPORTED BY:
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SSCE0000984
1 Confidential Deposition of

2 called for examination pursuant to notice of

3 deposition, on Tuesday, November 30, 2010, in

4 Washington, DC, at the Senate Select Committee on

5 Ethics, Hart Senate Office Building, Suite 220, at

6 10:01 a.m., before a Notary Public

7 within and for the District of Columbia, when were

8 present on behalf of the respective parties:

9 ESQ.

10 ESQ.

11 ESQ.

12 ESQ.

13

1111111111 ESQ.

14

United States Senate Select

15

Committee on Ethics

16

220 Hart Senate Office Building

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Washington, DC 20510

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202-224-2981

19

ethics. senate. gov

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IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIgethics.senate.gov

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IIIIIIIIIIIIIkethics.senate.gov

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IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIkethics.senate.gov

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IIIIIIII1Fethics.senate.gov

24

On behalf of Senate Ethics Committee

25

-- continued --
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2
1 APPEARANCES (Continued):
2
3 ESQ.
4 Law Office of
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6 Washington, DC 20006
7 202-
8 .com
9 On behalf of Witness
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SSCE0000986
1 PROCEEDINGS

2 EXAMINATION

3 BY

4
Q
Good morning.

5 A Good morning.

6
Q
the United States Senate

7 Select Committee on Ethics has summoned you here

today for this deposition as a witness in connection

9 with the Committee's preliminary inquiry concerning

10 Senator John Ensign. I'm counsel

11 here, and I have been joined by Chief Counsel,

12 to my left. To 'Ellett we have

13 and to my

14 right we have who is the

15

16 All of us have been authorized to ask you

17 questions today. However, I'll be doing most of the

18 questioning, okay? Our questions and your answers

19 will be recorded by the court reporter. Because

20 this is a deposition before a legislative branch

21 agency, your statements today are subject to the

22 False Statements Statute, Section 1001 of

23 Title XVIII of the United States Code.

24 Additionally, because this is a sworn

25 deposition, your statements are subject to penalty

26
4
IMIBSSCE0000987
1 of perjury under Section 7(b) of the Supplementary

2 Procedural Rules of the Select Committee on Ethics

3 and Section 1621 of Title XVIII of the United States

4 Code, as well as the Obstruction of Congress

5 Statute, Section 1505.

6 Thus, you may not make any intentionally

7 false statements or knowingly mislead the committee

8 through your answers today.

9 Do you understand?

10 A I do.

11 : At this point, I would ask that

12 the court reporter administer the oath.'

13 Whereupon,
14

15 was called as a witness and, having first been duly

16 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

17 : Also at this time I'd also like

18 to invite your counsel to enter his appearance on

19 the record.

20 : Thank you,

21 I just want to state for the record that

22 is here voluntarily as a fact witness,

23 and she intends to fully cooperate with the

24 committee's investigation. And I request that the

25 Committee consult with counsel for Senator Ensign

26
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-SSCE0000988
should it decide to make any information from this

testimony public, given that it could concern

3 testimony covered by the Speech or Debate privilege.

4 BY

5 Q So do you understand that your

6 statements today are subject to statutes and

7 Committee rules concerning false statements, perjury

and obstruction of Congress?

9 A Id

10

And the record should reflect that you're

11

here today with your counsel, and we're

12

confident that he has explained to you all issues

13 related to your presentation.

14 We are aware, however, that some

15 witnesses' attorneys fees are being paid by Senator

16 Ensign. Therefore, I must ask you whether you

17 understand that your attorney represents you and

18 owes his full duty of loyalty to you and you alone,

19 no matter who may be paying your fees.

20 Do you understand that?

21 A I do.

22 Q Furthermore, I must ask whether you

23 understand that you do not owe any duty of loyalty

24 to any other person merely because they may be

25 paying your attorney fees. Do you also understand

26
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MII
-SSCE0000989
1 that your duty today is to answer the questions

2 truthfully and completely to the best of your

3 ability?

4 A I do.

5
Q
We have provided your attorney with a copy

6 of our procedural rules. As a general matter,

7 Supplementary Procedural Rule 8 dictates strict

8 confidentiality on our part regarding the fact of

9 this deposition and all statements that are made

10 here today.

11 These rules do not govern your own

12 discussions of this interview. However, it is the

13 committee's expectation that no witness will tailor

14 or coordinate his or her testimony based on an

15 earlier deposition.

16 Thus, we request that you refrain from

17 discussing our questions and your answers with

18 anyone other than your attorney.

19 Do you understand?

20 A I do.

21
Q
And pursuant to Supplementary Procedural

22 Rule 6, you are entitled to the opportunity to

23 inspect the transcript of your deposition in the

24 committee's offices and request that any

25 transcription errors be corrected.

26
1-SSCE0000990
8

1 Any errors of fact must be brought to the

2 committee's attention through the submission of a

3 sworn statement. If you wish to inspect the

4 transcript, please let us know in the next week or

5 two, and well be happy to arrange a time for you to

come in, okay?

A Okay.

Great. Finally, if at any time during

9 this deposition you want to take a break to talk

10 with your attorney or just to take a few minutes or

11 for whatever, just let us know, okay?

12 A Okay.

13
Q
Also, before we get started, I just would

14 like to show you what we're going to mark as Exhibit

15 11111.

16 (Exhibit-1 identified.)

17 BY

18
Q
Take a moment and look at this.

19 could you confirm that this. is the

20 notice that we sent to your counsel that has

21 requested that you attend here today?

22 A Yeah.

23
Q
Okay. Thank you.

24 Please just state and spell your full name

25 for the record.

26
SSCE0000991
9

1 A
2

3 Q
And could you just give us a description

4
of your educational background after you completed

5 high school.

6 A
7
8

9 Q
When did you graduate?

10 A
11

12 A
13

14 Q
I'm sorry?

15 A
16

17 Q
And then you were
for Senator

18
Ensign. Could you give me approximate dates for

19
when you were -- served as

20
and for Senator Ensign's office?
21
A
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IM-SSCE0000992
1
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3 A Yes.
10
5
6

7 A
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19
20
21

22 position.
23
24

25 interview.
(Laughter.)
But other than that, I didn't have an
I understand.
A No,
And how did you come to get In
with Senator Ensign's office?
A I applied.
And if you can, tell me what you can
recall about the interview process.
A I didn't really have an interview process.
I just submitted my resume, and as a Nevada
resident, I assumed I was qualified for the
26
-SSCE0000993
Who did you work under as a
A Well, I worked under

1 Q
Did you meet with anybody at all before

2 you came in?

3 A No.

4 Q
They just said -- so you received a call
5.

and they said we would like you to come in and work?

6 A We would like you to come in, uh-huh.

7 Q
What kind of things did you do as III

You were

for about two months, it

looks like?

10 A Yeah.
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18

19 Q
Do you recall what title was?

20 A
21
22

23 A Yes.

24 Q
This is while you were

25 A Yes.
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-SSCE0000994
A An opening came up.
and Senator Ensign met
with me and suggested that maybe I apply,
So did the Senator call you into his

1 Q
How did you come to be hired onto the

2 staff as a full-time employee?

3
4
5
6
7
8
9

10 office and say let's chat or did he send you an

11 e-mail? How did that come up?

12 A Senator Ensign
13
14
15
16
17

18
And I kind of wanted to get familiar

19 with the interview process out here, and that's when

20 he suggested applying for this job.

21 Q And so did you know the Senator before you

22 started working on his staff as

23 A
24
25
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16 call it the
17 A Yeah.
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19
20 A
21
22
23
24
Q
Is there a
25 come in to replace
26
Just tell me how it's set up now that
that

1 A

3
Q
So you came on in What

4 was your title?

5 A
6
7
8
9
10
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13

14 A Uh-huh.

15
Q
So tell me how the -- can I
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MIIIIISSCE0000996
14

1 A No, that position would be what I would be

2 eventually promoted to, but you start out as

3 before receiving that title change.

4 Q Anybody else working doing IIIIIIIIIIIthat

5 we haven't discussed yet?

6 A Not during this time, no.

7 Q And so when did you get promoted to

8

9 A I think probably

10 Q And what brought about your promotion?

11 A I think just work and how I was moving up

12 quickly and learning kind of the ins and outs of how

13 things were going, I just came up for review, and a

14 promotion was what I was given.

15 Q And how did your responsibilities change

16 when you were made -- or rather when you became

17

18 A I was more responsible for kind of

19 taking --
20
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22
23

24

And are you still the

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A I'm not. I'm the
So you're -- is that the same as
A Yes, in our office it is, uh-huh.
So you're the

now?
A Yes.
So when did you get your promotion, your
most recent promotion?
A Well, let's see.
So did come back at all?
A
Q So the official promotion occurred after
officially left the payroll? Is that a fair
thing to state?
A
yes.
15
M-SSCE0000998
1 some point. When was that?

2 A I think it was beginning of

3 of this year.
A Yes.

6 Q
7

8 A Uh-huh.

9 Q
Okay. So let's focus in during this time

10 period
11
12

13 Can you just sort of walk me through

14 any personnel changes that are occurring?

15 A
16
17
18
19

20 Q
Could you explain,

21 so how could --

22 A No, That's --

23 Senator Ensign was chairman of that before,

24

25 Q Then
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1

2 A
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5

6 A
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8
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10

11
But as for putting Senator Ensign on Fox

12 News or coordinating a big policy floor speech,

13 would have been involved in that.

14
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16
17

18 A
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20
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22

23 Q
you

24 work directly is that correct?

25 A Yes.
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1
2
3 A Yes.
4
5
6 A
7
8
9
10
11
12
Q
Did you have a counterpart over at the
13
14 A I did not. It was just
15
16 A Uh-huh.
17 Q
Did you manage anybody?
18 A I think maybe I had a at
19 one point. That didn't last long. Otherwise,
20
21
22 Q And in Nevada did have anyone helping
23
24 A No.
25 Q
So you said that once you were promoted,
26
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MIIIIII-SSCE0001001
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1

you then began to

2
3

A Uh -huh.

Anything else I'm leaving out?

A
Not really. Not that I can recall.

And we did talk about the fact that you

8 would --
9

10
A
11
12
13
14
15 Q
So outside of the time in Nevada, not much
16
socializing?
17
A Huh-uh, no.
18
Q
Did you ever go to the Senator's home here
19 in D.C.?
20
A
21
Senator Ensign - none of the senators were home
22
during that time.
23
Q
It wasn't, you know, so stop by for work
24
or something?
25 A
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11.111SSCE0001002
20
1

2 Q
Okay. Have you worked on any of the

3
Senator's campaigns?

4 A No.

5 Q
Okay. Any other campaign work besides

6 A
7
8

9 Q
Just nothing since you've joined the

10 Senate?

11 A No.

12
Q Did the

have regular meetings?

13
I'm looking in this 2008 time frame. You know,

14
you've gotten your promotion. Do you all have a

15

regular sort of meeting schedule?

16 A
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SSCE0001003
1
Q
Did you all have any interaction with the

2 leg. staff at all?

3 A Yeah. I mean, most offices on the Hill

4 when you're working in kind of like the bullpen

5 area, sure, we interacted with leg. staff all the

6 time
7

8
Q
Did you attend any of their meetings?

9 A We attend -- we have a weekly leg. staff

10 meeting every -- well, not weekly, every day that

11 the Senator is in town, just to kind of brief him on

12 his day or what issues may be going on on the floor,

13 so we're all in attendance. All staff attends that.

14

So leg. staff,

15

A Uh-huh.

16

How about admin staff, are they there?

17 A 11111111 111 11111111111111111

18
19

20 Q And, you know, in doing your job as MN

21 how often would you meet with the

22 Senator?

23 A Depending on what was going on, I mean, we

24 could meet several times a day, or I could not see

25 him at all that day aside from leg. staff. It just

26
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IMISSCE0001004
22
1

kind of depended on what we were working on.

2
3
4
6

7
So I mean, there tends to be a lot of

8
interaction with Senator Ensign if it's a busy week.
9
10
11
12

13
A Yes.

14
Q
Okay. And did you travel with the

15
Senator?

16
A
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A
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A Uh -huh, yes.
A
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A Yes.
18 Q
That's something you would do?
19
A Uh-huh, yes.
20
21
22
A Yes,
23
24

Oftentimes the three of us went together.

25 Q
Did you primarily work out of the D.C.
26
-SSCE0001006
office or were you in the Nevada office a lot?

A When I was working with him in the state,

3 I would work out of whatever state office we were

4 in, whether it be Carson, Reno or Las Vegas. But my

5 main duty station, as you would say, would be

6

7 Q
So would you go back home during recess?

8 A If he had workdays that I -- yes, I would

9 go back there to staff him for those work days.

10 Q
So for workdays, would it be fair to say

11 that you would be in Las Vegas?

12 A Yes.

13 Q
As opposed -- so you would be where he

14 was, I think is a fair statement?

15 A Yes, yes.

16 BY

17 Q
I'm sorry, can I just clarify?
18
19

20 A It's in general. Oftentimes,

21
22
23

24 Q
Is it more often than not that Mondays and

25 Fridays would be workdays that he would return home

26
-SSCE0001007
1 to the state? So in other words, are you going home

2 more often than not, going to Las Vegas?

3 A I'm only going home during recesses. When

4 he goes home every weekend, I stay here.

5 Q
Okay. And let me just clarify also, just

6 so we get an understanding of your relationship with

7 the Senator,
8

9 A
10

11 Q
All right.

12 A Uh-huh, yes.

13 Q
Okay.
14
15

16 A No, no.

17
: Thank you.

18 BY

19 Q
When you staff the Senator back in the

20 home state, were there others traveling with you or

21 was it just you and the Senator?

22 A There were often several state staffers

23 that travel, whichever state staffer put together

24 the event that he would be attending, they would be

25 there.
26
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SSCE0001 008
26
1
2
3
4

Okay. When did

come on?

6 A
7
8
9

10

Okay. Whatis

title?

11 A

12 Q
And is --

13
A is
,
no longer with us.

14 Q
So now under your
15

16
A Uh-huh.

17 Q
Who works under you besides

18
A

19 Q
Anybody else?

20
A Nope.
21
22

23
Q , Do you have a sense of what time frame".

24 worked there?

25
A
26
-SSCE0001009
So this year?

A I'm a little fuzzier -- yes, was only

6 there a couple of months, yes.

7 Q
Did you ever receive ethics training here

8 at the Senate?

9 A I did. I received it obviously as an

10
and then I received it as a staffer.

11 Q
Okay. And when you received your staff

12 training, did you attend a session?

13 A Yeah, two-hour session, I think it was.

14 Q Something like that.

15 A Something like that.

16 Q
Do you know what the office's protocols

17
were with regard to ethics issues?

18

A Any ethics issues that I had, I would send

19

to the

20

would report to the Senate

21

Ethics Committee.

22

How did you know to send them to the

23

24 A That's what I was told. That's -- and I

25 had watched always do that as well.

26
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1
2
3
4
5
IIIII
SSCE0001010
1 : Who is the

2 at this time?

3 THE WITNESS:

4 at this time.

BY

I think just we're going to be talking

7 about this 2008 time frame.

8 A Okay.

9 Q
If we want to talk about something else,

10 we'll be more particular, okay?

11 A Okay.

12
Q
So
13

14 A I never had anything that I needed to send

15 but I was under the impression that if I had

16 anything,

17 Q
Were you also under the impression that if

18 you had something, say, you didn't want ill o know,

19 that you could call Ethics yourself?

20 A I wasn't aware of that, so -- no.

21
Q
As a are there issues that

22 arise in terms of ethics, just any that you can

23 recall from your work with

24 A I think the only thing I can recall is we

25 deal with this woman out here,

26
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1
2
3
4
5
6

7 Q
Pretty typical situation.

A That was my only --

Q People mean to be nice and then they

10

create a problem.

11

A Yes.

12

So now you've mentioned

13
14
15
16

17 A
18
19
20
21

22 A
23
24
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IM-SSCE0001012
Okay. How about
1
2

You mentioned those leg. staff meetings.

Did attend those?

A Yes, he did.
6
7
8

9 A
10
11

12 Q
It sounds like you worked closely with

13 Is that fair to say?

14 A Yes, I worked more closely with than

15 I did with just because of the distance.

16

Okay. How about

Did you

17 work closely with

18 A Sure.
19
20
21
22

23 A Yes,

I worked well together. I

24 would often go to her with HR concerns that I would

25 have or just as kind of a -- you know, a mentor as

26
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111111.
-SSCE0001013
1 to someone, you know, to kind of look up to and get

2 guidance from in the office.

3
Q
Did you do any projects with at all?

4 A Not that I can recall.

5 QSo

just a good office resource?

6 A Yes.

7 Q
How about

8 A
9

10
and our Sotomayor

11

speech that we had.

12

13 Q
What about when
14

15 A
16
17
18
19

20
Q
And I just want to make sure we don't miss

21 anything. Thinking back to when you first came on

22 as

23 and up through your promotion, so we're not - you

24 know, it's basically Up to the time

25
26
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IMSSCE0001014
1 change?

2 A I think I just started taking on more

3 responsibility, a bigger hand. =111111.11.11.1

4
5
7
8

9 Q
How about crisis management?

10 A Crisis management did not come into effect

11 until June 16 of 2009, MIIIIMIIIIM11111.11.1

12
13
14

15 Crisis management was a little different.

16 That was certainly all hands on deck,

17
18
19

20 Q
Okay. We'll come back to crisis

21 management, I just wanted -- just figured it was

22 something you probably had worked on during that

21 time.

24 A A little bit, yes.

25 Q
Wanted to make sure we accounted for it.
26
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Did you work with
A I worked with

'in kind of an
out-of-the-office capacity.
So when there were things that we maybe
wanted to kind of put up on a campaign Web site or
something, that would certainly be --
Q Okay.
A Right, to do something with that.
Were you close to or friendly with anyone
in the office?
someone who you worked -- you had a good
relationship with. Anybody else?
A
33
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1 There was a couple of us in the office

2 that are, you know, friendly.

3 Q
Okay. And do you know

4 A I do know

5 Q
Okay. And you worked with in the

6 Senate office; is that correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q
Did you start around the same time as

9 do you know, or --

10 A I don't believe I started around the same

11 time as I'm not sure what start

12 date was.

13 Q
That's fine.

14 A
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24

25 Q
And you mentioned seeing
26
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1
2

3 A Yes.
4

A Somewhat.

7 Q Connection is understood.

8 A Yes.
9

10 or --

11
THE WITNESS: I did not, no, I did not.

12 BY

13 Q
then; is

14 that correct?

15 A I had, uh-huh. yes.

16
17
18

19 A No.

20 Q
So when you started, was already on

21 staff?

22 A
Yes'Ill was'

23 Q
Do you know what III title was?

24 A I believe Illwas the

25
26
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IIIIM-SSCE0001018
2

3 Q
Do you know what
4

5 A I don't just because I didn't work with --

6 in the administrative office.

7 Q
So you knew that the Senator and

8
then; is that correct?

9 A Yes.
10

11 A Yes.
12
13

14 A Yes.

15

How would you describe their friendship?

16 A Their friendship, from what I had seen

17 early on, was -- was certainly good. They treated

18
each other more like brothers. Their families were

19 obviously very close.

20 Q
Did you have a chance to observe the

21 relationship between

22 A I did. That was certainly a more strained

23 relationship. There wasn't a lot of interaction

24 between the two. You wouldn't see them often in

25
each other's office kind of chatting or catching up.
26
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1 Very formal.

2 Q
At some point in 2008, did you learn that

3
was going to be leaving the Senate

4 office?

5 A I did. We had an all-staff video

6 conference where we were told that

7 would be returning home. Before that,

8 though, 111 had been noticeably absent from the

9 office for periods of time. And we were just told:

10 that Illwas working out of the Vegas office, but it

11 was certainly noticeable that presence wasn't

12 around.

13 Q
Who had noticed?

14 A
15
16
17
18
19

20 Q Do you recall having discussions before

21
the announcement that he was leaving, you know, hey,

22 where's anybody know?

23 A Sure. I mean, all of us would kind of ask

24 around, have you seen Has anyone heard from

25 And again, we were just told by you

26
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of rehash role in our office kind of thing.
It was very to the point.
And I have not seen since then.

1 know, that III told her III was working out of the

2 Vegas office.

3 Q
And you mentioned at the video conference

4 you all were told that and so III was

5 leaving. Can you think of anything else that was

6 said at that video conference?

7 A I think just that, you know I think

8 Senator Ensign maybe mentioned, you know, he was,

9 you know, just not going to be around anymore. It

10 was a very short video conference. It wasn't a kind

11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18

19 Q
Did

speak at the video conference, do

20 you remember?

21 A I don't remember. I remember Senator

22 Ensign taking more of a lead role in it. was

23 certainly present.

24
Q
Were people surprised that was

25 leaving, do you recall?

26
38
IIIIII-SSCE0001021
1 A Maybe. I don't know. I don't want to

2 speak to how other people felt. I was surprised.

3
Q
So you were surprised?

4 A I was surprised, yeah.

5
Q
Do you recall any conversations or chatter

6 after the -- after the conference?

7 A I think people were just more so shocked

8 as to why a was leaving, and But

9 again, Illhadn't really been around, so it seemed to

10 fit that maybe in that we hadn't seen

11 1111 often.
12
13

14 Did you have any conversations with

15 IIIIIas to why' was leaving the office outside of

16 that?

17 A No, no, I didn't see again. III

18 immediately departed. I didn't see after that.

19 Q
Did you take part in or overhear any

20 conversations about what would be doing after

21 IN left the Senate office?

22 A I mean, I think some people maybe had

23 mentioned that Iliwould be kind of working with some

24 Nevada entities out there. As to what that meant, I

25 don't -- I don't know.

26
39
=SSCE0001022
You had some understanding that Illwas

2 going to be doing --

3 A I assumedilliwould be doing fine in

4 Nevada. Illwas fine before our office; I assumed.

5 would be fine after.

6 Q
It's a long time ago, I understand. Do

7 you know who you might have heard that from or

8 A No, I can't recall.

9 Q Are you familiar with November Inc.?

10 A I am.

11 Q
Okay. Did the name "November Inc." come

12 up at all in connection with going to work

13 after left the office?

14 A After the fact, I think it may have come

15 up. And again, I don't know if it was a

16
conversation with Senator Ensign or someone else in

17 our office, that would be working with

18 over there.

19 Q Did you talk with the Senator about

20 departure?

21 A No.

22 Q
So before left the office, did you

23 and ever talk about any substantive policy

24 matters at all?

25 A No.
26
40
111.111-SSCE0001023
1
Q
So has gone and you mentioned that
you had the e-mail, you got a nice response back.

3 Did you have any other contact with you know,

4 at any time in that year after 1111 left the office?

5 A No.

6 Q
Okay. Were you aware of having

7
contact with any Ensign employees during that time

8 period? And this is during that post-May 2008

9 period when left, were you aware of having

10 contact with anybody in the office?

11 A Yes.
office is in my suite.

12 1111 sits at the back of my suite. And

13
out

14 in the state, was in there. And Illmentioned that

15 IIIIIwould be coming in for a lunch.

16
And somehow later that day or another day,

17 I'm not sure, I remember Senator Ensign coming out

18 and standing in front of my desk and meeting

19
there and, you know, very upsettingly asking

20 why was coming in, that hadn't

21 been -- it's only been six months or it hadn't

22 been time yet, year wasn't up, and

23
assured him that everything was fine and

24 that Illwould take care of it.

25
That was where I first -- my interest was
26
111111-SSCE0001024
1 first piqued into still having contact

2 with our office.

3 Q Okay. And I want to back up. You said

4 that the Senator was upset?

A Yes.

6 Q
How did you know he was upset?

7 A He doesn't often get upset, so when he

8 does, it's very noticeable that his demeanor is

9 different. He was -- his face was very agitated,

10 his voice was agitated, and he just kind of

11 confronted at my desk, asking why

12 was coming in.

13 Q
Do you know when this might have been,

14 what time this might have been?

15 A I've learned after that this was the lunch

16 that they had with

17 So I learned that later that day from

18 Q
So you learned that -- told you

19 that day?

20 A Yes.

21 Q
So take a moment -- you've got a good

22 recollection, but I just want to make sure we don't

23 miss anything. Go back to that day. is at

24 desk? Actually, tell me how the suite is set

25 up. You said desk was near yours. How is that?

26
42
=-SSCE0001025
43
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
A Yeah.
Where is the Senator's office?

9
.A
The Senator's office is one suite over,

10
right next to mine is where

office is, all

11
the administrative offices are, and then John

12
Ensign's office is right next to that.

13 Q
So he would have to walk through the admin

14
suite, walk past you to get back over to

15
Is that accurate?

16
A Yes.

17 Q
So tell us again what you recall.

18
A
19
20
21
22
23 Q
Okay.
24
A
And John Ensign very agitatedly asked
25
why
was coming into the office,
26
11111.-SSCE0001026
44
that it hadn't been
year yet. And -- or
2 I'm sorry,
just kind of very passively
3
said its fine, I'll take care of it.
4 Q
And the Senator said?
A Make sure you do.
6
BY
7 Q
Who else was present?
8
A
9
111111111111111111111111 I believe was also in the
10
office. But the two of us -- we haven't talked
11
about this conversation. Again, I. was facing
12
forward, so I don't know who might have heard, who
13
was paying attention.
14
15
16
A
17
18
He
19
would have to stop at
desk in order to come out
20
of his office.
21 Q
Do you remember
being present when
22
this interaction between

and the Senator

23 occurred?
24
A
I don't recall. I mean, there's a wall
25
between our offices, so I wouldn't have seen
26
SSCE0001027
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
BY
Would it be fair to say if you're sitting
here, 11111Iliterally on the other side of the wall?
A Yes. On the other side of the room, yes.
Exactly where my desk is in the other suite.
BY
Could you hear what went on in front of
desk, if people are talking in front of 1111
desk, could you hear?
A Depending on their volume of their voice,
you can. I mean depending on who it is. Some
staffers you can hear across the whole suite of
rooms and some you can't hear at all. So it would
depend on who was standing there.
What was the volume of this conversation?
A Senator Ensign's voice was -- was
agitated, not raised. He doesn't raise his voice.
But it was certainly something I could hear standing
right there. And I would believe that people
immediately behind him or next to him would also
hear the conversation.
If they would have been on the other side
of the wall?
A I guess it would depend on where you're
standing.
45
IIIIIISSCE0001028
1

BY

2 Q
Just to back up, the Senator came out and

3 seemed surprised that was coming to

4 this lunch or --

5 A Senator Ensign often doesn't check his

6
calendar until immediately right before his next

7 appointment, so I would imagine that he must have

8 just been scrolling through his BlackBerry, but

9 again, I can't attest to that.

10 Q
But he raised the issue of

11 A Yes.

12 Q
To

13 A Yes.

14 Q
In front of you?

15 A Yes.

16 BY

17 Q
Where did they go after that interaction?

18 A Senator Ensign went back into his office.

19 I don't remember if walked back into

20 III seemed as though was heading out the door

21 maybe to use the restroom or something, I don't

22 remember if Ucontinued out the door.

23 Q
Illcould have followed the Senator back

24 A No, they went separate ways as far as I

25 remember.
26
46
SSCE000I 029
1 Q
They did go separate ways, okay.

2 BY

3 Q
So as you learned, this was the lunch that

4 occurred in the dining room?

5 A Yes.

6 Q
And do you know sort of how close that

7 occurred to the time left the office?

8 left in May of 2008.

9 A Well, judging by Senator Ensign's

10 reaction, I would assume it was not within his year

11 ban. I don't -- I don't know the exact date of that

12 lunch, though.

13 Q
Okay. Just look back before that lunch.

14 Had you been aware or made aware of having any

15 contact with anyone in the office before that point?

16 A There was -- I don't remember if this was

17 before or after the lunch, but there was kind of a

18 blowup between and where I

19 had only heard the tail end of the conversation,

20 where said that staff was not going to be

21 helping in any way. And I then

22 remember her going to and tell

23 I. needed to contact Senate Ethics Committee and

24 report back to

25 Q
Let's start of walk back to this. You
26
47
IIIM-SSCE0001030
48
1
described it as a blowup. Why would you call it a
2 blowup?
3
A Because
was yelling, Illican often
4 raise
voice, but in this time
was just vex'y
5
adamant, getting III point across, that
leg.
6
staff was not going to be assisting
in
7
any way to assist
8 Q
Okay. Were you present during this
9 blowup?
10
A
11
12
A
The beginning part took place in
13
office.
14
15
A
16 Q
Tim getting that impression.
17
A
18
Everything kind of tends to
19
take place around there.
20 Q
Now, you mentioned that

was .
21
yelling. Was
yelling?
22
A
I don't remember what

reaction.was.
23
alwas
liras not a, yeller. Illwas more passive.
24 Q
Was 111 upset?
25
A
I don't know. I just remember
26
Mit SSCE0001031
1 reaction.

. 2 Q But it's fair to say that Illwas upset?

3 A was, yes.

4 Q Who else was present for this blowup?

5 A Again, are also in

6
that suite. Whether they saw this, I'm not -- I

7
never discussed it with them, so I don't know if

8 they witnessed that as well.

9 Q
Okay. And you said that said that

10 staff wasn't going to help

to help
11

12 A Yes.

13 Q Did you have any sense of what meant

14 by that?

15 A
16
17
18

19 Q Do you know what brought about this

20 conversation?

21

A I don't. I can assume, based on

22
information that we've received after, and what

23 has said in hindsight, that had been reaching

24 out to a couple of our

25
and a couple other -- I would assume -- I
26
111111ISSCE0001032
1 know you know, for different kind of

2 questions for the companies that Illwas

3 representing. And to that was a big

4 red flag.

5 Q So at that time, though, were you aware

6 that had reached out to at all?

7 A No.

8 Q
Okay. So you were aware that there was

9 some disagreement, and you knew it was about

10 though; is that correct?

11 A Yes.

12 Q
And that there was a directive that no one

13 could assist

14 A directed leg. staff that

15 anyone -- no one should assist and if

16 they received any inquiries from they

17 needed to take those directly to and to

18 not respond, not to handle it.

19
Q
Now, were you present for that directive?

20 A told me that after the fact.

21 Q
When you say "after the fact, " when was

22 that?

23 A Certainly in talking about all of this

24 stuff over the past year, all of this stuff has come

25 up again, so I don't know if III had mentioned that

26
50
IMI-SSCE0001033
1 to me during the course of this year or if recently

2 after made that announcement.

3
Q
Take a moment, because we all have learned

4 so much, you know, and so you

5 learned more than everyone, probably.

6 A Right.

7 Q
But thinking back, you witnessed a blowup?

8 A Yes.

9 Q
Between and It was about a

10 contact from Were you personally or were you

11 told or did you learn of a directive to staff not to

12 have interaction with -- with

13 pardon me, at that time?

14 A I can't say how soon after that I was

15 aware of that directive. My assumption was always

16 that did not get along well with

17 and I assumed that it was more people --

18 didn't want to help in any way

19 because of that. That was my interpretation of it.

20 Obviously come to find out down the road,

21 through New York Times and other outlets, that these

22 were actual legislative questions that

23 was prompting. I wasn't aware of that until that

24 story came out.

25 Q At that time, you could have thought that

26
51
ISSCE0001034
1 didn't like and III didn't want to try to

2 help

3 A Without the background information as to

4 what their conversation was and what each LA was

5 dealing with, I wouldn't have been able to come to

6 the conclusion.

7 Q Did you talk with or

8 about this blowup?

9 A I don't think so. I don't think so.

10 Q How about anybody on leg. staff?

11 A Not that I can remember.

12 Q Do you recall any leg. staff chatter,

13 people were talking about this, you know, directive

14 from or anything related to it?

15 A Well, there was always kind of a tension

16 between and so I think a

17 lot of people just kind of felt that this fell

18 within that. I certainly did. I didn't -- it

19 wasn't a huge red flag to me that they had had a

20 disagreement or something to do with at that

21 time.

22 Q Why was there always a tension between

23 them?

24 A I think there just was. I don't -- I

25 don't know why. I've never talked with either of

26
52
-SSCE0001035
1 them about it.

2
Q
But you could sense that they --

3 A You could sense it sometimes, sure.

4 Q So had they butted heads before on other

issues that you were aware of?

6 A I don't remember.
Q And you said that -- earlier, you said

8 that Illiwent to 11111111111= How do you know

9 that?

10 A I heard her. I heard her say.= name

11 across the suite -- and then come back in and tell

12 that told to call Ethics and

13 check with Ethics on this, and that 111 would be

14 coming back to And then walked away.

15 heard say that to

16

Q Now, earlier you said would be

17

getting back toIIIIIII Would!. be getting back

18 to -- do you remember, went to 11.11.1advised

19 to call Ethics.

20 A removed herself from the situation and

21 tasked with checking with Ethics and have

22 report to on it.

23
Q
Do you recall giving any

24 push-back in terms of well, you know, we can help

25 1111111 we don't --
26
53
MSSCE0001036
1

A I don't recall reaction.

BY

Do you recall ifillisaid anything or you

4 just don't recall what Illsaid or --

A I don't recall what'll said. III may have

6 said something.' may not have said something. I

7 don't remember.

8 MEM Thank you.

9
BY IIIIIIIII:

10
Q
Do you recall any follow-up conversations

11 about this issue of contacting with any of the

12 people you mentioned,

13 A I remember

going into IIII

14 office with what had heard from Ethics

15 Committee. It was a closed-door conversation, so I

16 don't know what was discussed.

17
Q
Do you know if was in that

18 meeting?

19 A I don't believe that was.

20
Q
Do you know if the Senator was aware of

21 this blowup over this issue?

22 A I don't know. I don't know if he was

23 aware.

24 BY

25
Q
Just sticking with that meeting for a
26
54
1111.11-SSCE0001037
1

second. Did you get any indication of the tone of

2 that meeting during or after?

3 A I mean,

so he is -- he

4 very seriously goes and says stuff matter of fact

5 and walks out. So that was -- but again, the door

6 was closed, so I don't know what was discussed, what

7 was said.

8
Q
But you also seem to be a very good reader

9 of emotion. Do you recall any indication that..

10 was upset or annoyed or anything, or was

11 afterwards?

12 A I think was certainly concerned. I

13 think that he -- you know, to him I think that this

14 was probably a red flag, which is why 1111-111

15 seemed to take it very seriously. III looked very

16 serious when"' walked in there.

17 Q
When II walked in. Any difference when

18 walked out?

19 A I didn't see when walked out.

20 BY

21
Q
So you mentioned that seemed

22 concerned, and I think, as IIII has pointed out, that

23 you've been pretty good about relaying your recall

24 of how people's emotional responses were. Did it

25 seem as if was less concerned than

26
1111=-SSCE0001038
56

1
about this?
A I think I was more paying attention to 1111

3 and
Certainly, paid attention to

4
because the agitated one,IIIIII

5 the one causing a fuss, and just kind -- or

6 I'm sorry, was I don't remember what

7
reaction was.

8
has a certain swagger and way that

9
illwalks that makes you notice more than 11111

10 and would have been in office.

11 So chances are was probably seated behind a desk

12
or something that you would not -- I wouldn't have

13 been able to gauge what reaction was. And I

14
certainly wasn't looking through the window.

15
: That's not just because

16
by the way.

17
(Laughter.)

18
: I think that's just him.
19 BY
20 Q
So there is this blowup, and do you know
21
if there were any policy changes that resulted
22 because of this
.
blowup?
23 A
24
25
And in hindsight, like I said, with
26
-SSCE0001039
1 talking with when all these articles

2 and stuff was coming out, let me know that

3 had instruct leg. staff to not work in any

4 capacity to help or help

5
11111111111111

6
Q
Do you recall ever being at a leg. time or

7 any leg. staff meeting where this topic of

having contact with the office came up?

9 A I don't recall.

10
Q
Because I understand that spoke to

11 leg. staff, but there's press staff and there's

12 admin staff. So I just --

13 A We would not have been contacted by

14 though. I mean,

15 We were just

16 simply Senator Ensign's

17 wouldn't have reached out to

18 us to help in some way. So we wouldn't have

19 been -- there wouldn't have been some thing that we

20 would have been a part of, I guess is what I'm

21 trying to say on that.

22
Q
Just to follow up, then, no one ever told

23 you -- didn't tell you, for example,

24 since was your manager, listen, if contacts

25 you to do -- to do something?
26
57
-SSCE0001040
1 A

I don't remember

ever saying that to

2 me, no.

3 Q
Did anyone ever advise you as to what you
should do if called you and said hey, I have a

5 question about a or can you tell me

6 what's going to happen here?

7 A Not that I recall. I mean, again, I

8 didn't have any interaction with after III left,

9 so I -- I don't know if did. I don't know if

10 that was something we would have been dealing with

11 in our

12 Q
After 11111left, did you and the Senator

13 discuss at all during this time frame?

14 A Not really. I mean, it was just kind of

15 as thought just was gone.

16 Q
So after this blowup, at any time -- and

17 this is after the blowup, and do you think the

18 blowup occurred before or after the lunch that you

19 were aware of?

20 A That I don't know.

21 Q
You don't know, okay. I can tell you that

22 it was before, so to give you some sense.

23 A Okay.

24 Q
Were you aware at any time, I guess,

25 during this blowup and this lunch of =MI

26
SSCE0001041
1 having contact with at all?

2 A No.

3 Q We're going to move on a little bit to

4 2009, okay?

5 A Okay.
To June. And I guess my question for you

7 is how did you first become aware that Senator

8 Ensign had had an affair with

9 A I had not spoken to

10 in a couple of months. And I woke up to

11 about 11 missed phone calls from the night that

12 Senator Ensign was meeting with his senior staffers

13 to let them know.

14 So I got in to work early, and nobody was

15 there. wasn't there, wasn't there,

16 called me, told me to come up to office.

17 I went up there. told me Senator

18 Ensign was on a plane back home, that he had had an

19 affair with and he was going to hold a

20 press conference. And at that time I called

21 and

22 just kind

23 of background information on it.

24 And then the rest of that day I spent up

25 in office -- or office at IIII kind

26
59
-SSCE0001042
1 of trying to keep the from knowing what he was

2 going to announce that afternoon.

3
Q
I want to back up and make sure we don't

4 miss anything. First of all, do you know what day

5 he made his disclosure?

6 A June 16.

7 Q
So the calls that you got, those would

8 have been the 15th?

9 A The night of the 15th, yes.

10
Q
So you mentioned that he met with his

11 senior staffers, and that would have been the night

12 of the 15th too; is that correct?

13 A Yes.

14
Q
And you were not at that meeting; correct?

15 A I was not at that meeting.

16
Q
Do you know who was there?

17 A From what I believe, I think it was

18
19

20
Q
And how do you know that? Who told you?

21 A I think, told me. told me.

22 They all told me that they were there that night.

23
Q
Okay. So you spoke with that

24 morning, called you after you came into the

25 office?
26
60
SSCE000I 043
1 A Yeah. 1111 called me, 1111 and I often walk

2 to get coffee in the mornings. And I had gotten in

3 earlier, wanted to see if wanted to walk down

4 earlier. Illitold me to come up there, needed

5 to talk to me.

6 Q Just take a moment and think back to what

7 Illisaid to you.

8 A Well, I walked in, and I said, you know,

9 what's going on? And said John had an affair

10 with and he's going to announce it this

11 afternoon at a press conference in Vegas. It was, I

12 mean, that matter of fact.

13
Q
And you said?

14 A "What?"

15
Q
Did 1111explain further?

16 A I don't recall. I think that -- and I

17 and were up there talking quite a bit

18 that day because we were the only staffers at that

19 point who knew. The rest of our staff didn't know,

20 aside from senior staff.

21 And I don't remember if said that it

22 was -- he was coming forward because of I= claims

23 for 8 million, $2 million, and that's why John was

24 coming forward about it. I think that took

25 course -- took place at some point that day, that

26
61
SSCE000I 044
1 afternoon.

2
Q
Why were you all up in the office?

3 A A lot of -- you know, we didn't want to

4 have any happen before Senator Ensign

5 was able to give his press conference, and obviously

6 . some media back home in the state had been tipped

7 off, I don't know by who, that this was coming

8 forward.
9
10
11

12 And we also needed to stay away from the

13 rest of the staff, because Senator Ensign was going

14 to, over a phone call, kind of announce to staff

15 what was going on and what he was going to say in

16 his press conference.

17 So it was important that we not be around

18 them at that point because we knew and they didn't.

19
Q
Okay. And I take it the offices are

20 more private than your very popular spot downstairs?

21 A Yeah, had a -- used to have a huge

22 office up there, so it was kind of our command

23 central that day. And the 1111 people are way across

24 the wing. No one was around office.

25
Q
Was with you all that day as
26
62
IIIMI-SSCE0001045
1 well?

2 A came up intermittently throughout the

3 day. came in a little later that morning just

4 because they'd been up so late that night. And then

5 she was kind of up there with us at certain points

6 during the day, going back down to the office every

once in a while so people wouldn't think that there

8 was some big thing about to happen.

9 Q
Any other senior staffers come up that

10 day?

11 A Not that I remember.

12
Q
Okay. And so you said that very

13 matter of factually explained that there had been an

14 affair and =mentioned that the reason that he may

15 be coming forward -- or may have mentioned it

16 was because there had been a demand for money.

17 A Yes.

18
Q
Did describe the C Street meeting at

19 all?

20 A III told us that they had -- they were at

21 C Street that night and that John had kind of just

22 laid it out there for them, what was going on and

23 what this past year had kind of been like for him.

24 just kind of explained that.

25 Q
Did say anything else the Senator had
26
63
MSSCE0001046
64

1 told them?
A My details on that night are fuzzy, only

3
because it's -- I don't recall what was told to me

4
after New York Times story came out or what was told
that day. That day is just a blur.
It's a blur, okay. Do you -- just

7 thinking back, do you know if mentioned if the

8
Senator mentioned making any sort of payment to the

9 at that point?

10 A No.
11

12 A

13 Q
Was upset?

14 A I believe that was upset, but I think

15
that we were all so focused on making sure that the

16
story didn't leak that you really didn't have time

17

to deal with the emotion of the situation until the

18 end of the day.

19 Q How about Did talk with

20 you about the meeting?

21 A was upset.

22 Q
I was guessing. So it's fair to say that

23 was upset?

24 A Yes.

25 Q And did in any way relay to you or

26
IMMISSCE0001047
65
1
talk with you about what had occurred the evening
2
before at C Street?
3
A
1111 just kind of was relaying 1111
4
interpretation of John's -- or sorry, Senator
5
Ensign's emotions at that time and kind of how he
6
relayed this to
and their discussions that kind
7
of took place that night about his affair and how he
8
had let this happen and how, you know, kind of his
9
coming to -- I wouldn't say come to Jesus kind of
10
moment with all of it, but kind of a cathartic
11
release for him on what he had been holding back
12
this past year.
13
kind of touched on that a little bit.
14
Obviously the details of that meeting have come out
15
more as we have discussed more of the situation.
16 Q
Was Illlupset about anything in
17
particular, do you know?
18
A

I think
was upset about a myriad of
19
things, one of them being that he had an affair, one
20
of them being the
21

I think the fact that it had happened a year ago and

22
none of us had known.
23
I think that

was upset about all

24
that.
25
26
IIIIIISSCE0001048
angle in all of this.
22
A
23
24
25
66
A
Not that day, no.
But at some point -- were really right in
4
the day of the 16th and just within that week. So
5
we're going to try to focus at some point during
6
that -- you know, that early crisis period, do you
7
remember Illidiscussing it?
8
A
9
10
11
I went there for that week, so I was
12
gone Senator Ensign's first week back. So I have a
13
week missing there.
14
Q
That's helpful to know, thanks.
15
BY
16 Q
Before we leave that day --
17

: I'm not done, but go ahead.

18
You can go ahead.
19
BY
20 Q
I was just going to ask, what did
21 tell you?
1
2
3
26
1111111.-SSCE0001049
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Q

Is
A
Q And did Illknow anything about money or
anything like that?
A
Q
A
67
allISSCE0001050
1
2

3 goon.
4
5
6
7
8

9 A
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18

19 A
68
: We'll get into that as we
BY
A bh-huh,. yes.
20 Q
I want to go back to that day up at the
21
One thing we haven't talked about is, what
22
were you tasked with doing that day? You mentioned
23
sort of, you know, keeping information close. But
24 did you have any particular task that you were
25 assigned to just on that day?
26
MIIM-SSCE0001051
1 A I was working -- I was fielding a lot of

2 the calls from our Nevada reporters, just to kind of

3 let them know any announcement Senator Ensign would

4 be making would take place later in the day, just to

5 kind the calm the storm.

6 I was assisting more so that day.

7 Certainly, there were -- there was the drafting of

8 Senator Ensign's statement that we put out. And

9 there was also

10
11

12 Q
We'll come to both of those things. I

13 just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything.

14
So you fielded calls from Nevada reporters

15 to let them know that you would talk to them or

16 that someone would talk with them later?

17 A Yes.

18 Q
Statement would be coming out. 111111.
19
20

21 A No.

22 Q
Anything else.' needed assistance with

23 that day, do you know?

24 A No, I think those were our main focuses

25 that day.
26
69
MIN-SSCE0001052
70

And also you helped with

2

A Yes.

We're going to do these things in pieces.

5

A Just, you know, that we would be having --

7 Senator Ensign would be holding a press conference

8 later that afternoon and that there wasn't anything

9 we were going to be discussing about that

10 beforehand.

11 Q
You know, I'm going to back up before we

12 move into your duties that day. was

13 also up at the periodically; correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q
Do you recall if told you anything

16 about what had occurred at C Street?

17 A I don't -- and I really didn't talk

18 about what had happened the night before that day.

19 was coming up more so just to kind of have a

20 chance to maybe sit down and not have to deal with

21 people coming in and out of 1111office wondering

22 where Senator Ensign was, why all their meetings

23
were canceled, should they still be holding meetings

24 if Senator Ensign wasn't there. I think IIII just

25 was needing to get away from that.

26
MIIIII-SSCE0001053
1 Q
Did come up at all that

2 day?

3 A Illicame up -- yes, did. 1111 came up

4 intermittently as well.

5 Q
So was also aware, then?

6 A Yes. Well, had gone to111111111

7 apartment that night after the -- after John spoke

8 with all his senior staff, and 1111sat down with

9 afterward to kind of let know, because

10 needed to book his flight home.

11 Q
Did 1111111 discuss with you -- or rather

12 did share with you anything about the affair or

13 the meeting that you didn't already know? Do you

14 remember learning anything from

15 A I don't believe so.

16
Q
Anybody else up there that I missed?
17

18 A Toward the end of the day, after Senator

19 Ensign did his conference call and did his press

20 conference and we were just kind of hanging up

21 there, having some wine, I think may

22 have come up, just people trickling up

23 there to kind of relax.

24 Q
Kind of commiserate?

25
A
Yes.
26
71
SSCE0001 054
1
Q
Fair enough. You mentioned that you did

2 assist with the statement. So I guess the

3 first question is where is the Senator at when all

4 this was occurring?

5 A Senator Ensign would have been on a plane

6 this morning, and then after he landed, that's when

7 the e-mails began about what he wanted to say, kind

8 of what -- was on the plane with him,

9 so we were kind of in communication with about

10 what our statement should say and editing back and

11 forth.

12 Q
Now, do you know who made the initial

13 draft of the statement?

14 A I don't know who initially drafted it.

15 Q
Did do it, do you know?

16 A I assumed that 1111didn't. I thought it

17 was maybe either or Senator Ensign because the

18 two of them were together on the plane.

19
Q
so it got drafted?

20 A Yes. And then we received a copy of it.

21 Q
But you all received a copy?

22 A Yes.

23
Q
I want to show you a copy. I should tell

24 you you may not be on this document, but I'm going

25 to show it to you to refresh your recollection.

26
72
MEESSCE0001055
1 (Exhibit 1111-2 identified.)

2 BY

3 Q This is marked Exhibit 11[2, and the Bates

4 range -- Bates range just so you know is the

5 numbers, so we can keep track of all of the stuff we

6 have, is 000409 to 411. It's a three-page document.

7 Take a moment and look at it. First

8 e-mail in the chain, as you know, since -- is at the

9 back. Take a moment and review it, please.

10 (Witness reviewed the document.)

11 You're not copied on this; is that

12 correct.

13 A No, I was at computer.

14 Q
You have seen this before, fair to say?

15 A Yes.

16 Q
And so gets this. Did you all

17 have any discussion about this draft when it came in

18 that you can recall? If so, could you describe what

19 you can recall, please.

20 A I don't recall if we had any discussion on

21 it. I think we were e-mailing back and forth with

22 I believe we may have spoken with on the

23 phone at one point. Again, would have taken

24
the lead in that conversation and it would have been

25 on speakerphone. I don't recall the discussion

26
73
11.11SSCE0001056
1 around this statement.

2 Q
Okay. So describe the working situation.
You're over shoulder maybe looking at the

4 computer. Is present when you all are

working on the statement?

A 1111 is intermittently as well, coming in

7 and out. Again, it was kind of

certainly

8 office, was in there for a portion of it.

9 But I don't recall if was around during this.

10 I'm sure 1111 walked in and out.

11 Q
But is on the other end on speaker?

12 A Yes.

13 Q
Do you know who was on the phone with
14

15 A Well, would have been with Senator

16
Ensign, so he would have been on speakerphone with

17 us.

18 Q
So you recall Senator Ensign being on that

19
call, then. Is that fair to say?

20 A No, I believe he was with Senator Ensign.

21
Senator Ensign wasn't on our call at this point.

22
was communicating to Senator Ensign in person.

23 We were talking to on the phone.

24 Q
is on the phone, speaker is on,

25
Senator Ensign is in the background. Do you know if
26
74
IIIII.-SSCE0001057
anyone else is with them?

2 A I don't know if anyone else is with them.

Okay. And so looking here, and we're

4 going to start on this last page, 411, can you just

5 read that first sentence beginning "sorry"?

6 A "Sorry if I missed anyone. JE deleted his

7 original. This is what we typed up."

8 Q
Did you have an understanding as to who
the "we" is that typed this up?

10 A I believed that it was and Senator

11 Ensign.

12 Q
I'm going to ask you to look -- we're

13 going to focus on -- it's the seventh line up from

14 the bottom. And the sentence begins, "last year."

15 A Did you want me to read that out loud?

16 Q
Please do.

17 A
18
19
20
21
22
23

24 Q
So that statement, was this your first

25 understanding that some sort of payment had been

26
75
ME-SSCE0001058
76
1
made to the
2
A Yes.
3 Q
Okay. And do You recall any discussions
4
on the phone with

and
about that
5
statement in particular?
6
A
I -- I know and I can say that Senator
7
Ensign,
8
9 Q
ITm going to get to that. So but at that
10
point, before counsel weighs in, did you all
11
discuss -- can you recall any questions or
12
discussions regarding this decision?
13
A
14
15
16
17
Q
And would it be your understanding that
18
this statement here -- that they reflect the
19
Senatorls words at that time?
20
A Yes.
21
22
23
24
25
A
26
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 5 9
1
2
3
4
5
7
8
9
10 A Yes. At that time, yes.
11 Q
What led you to believe that?
.
12 A From what had told me, that that's
13 why Senator Ensign told them that night that he was
14 coming forward.
15
Q
Because before he said you were uncertain.
16 So Illkust have told you that because you were
17 under that impression?*
18 A Yeah.
19 Q
Okay. Great. Thanks. I think we're done
20 with that one.
21
22
23 A Yes.
24 Q
Do you know why that was?
25 A
26
77
IIIIIMI-SSCE0001060
78
1
2

How did you know that advice had been

4 communicated?

5 A That's what I was told.

6 Q
Who told you?

7 A I don't remember if it was I don't

8 remember if it was a lawyer. I don't recall at that

9 time who said that.

10 Q
I'm going to show you a document --

11
Obviously, any conversations

12 involving Senator Ensign's counsel could be subject

13 to attorney-client privilege so we'll have to

14 address those as they Come up.

15
Definitely. And it would just

16 depend on whether or not you all could establish a

17 foundation for privilege. So depending on who was

18 present, it could be any privilege is vitiated. If

19 it comes up, we'll take a moment, if need be, go off

20 the record and try to establish a foundation.

21 : Understood.

22 (Exhibit 1113 identified.)

23 BY

24 Q I'm going to show you a document that

25 might refresh your recollection, and this is going

26
11111111-SSCE0001061
1 to be II-3. Take a moment to look at that.

2 (Witness reviewed the document.)

3 Let me know wherever you're ready.

4 A Okay.
Could you take a moment and just explain
what this document is for the record, please.

7 A I believe this is our official statement

8 that we ended up or this is what Senator Ensign

9 ended up reading at his press conference.

10
Q
So you think this is the actual official

11 statement?

12 A I think so. Again --

13 Q
I have a copy if you want to compare.

14 A I would love a copy if you have one.

15 (Exhibit 114 identified.)

16 BY

17 Q
I'll give you what's known as , then.

18 Because you would be the expert on this.

19 A Thanks.

20 (Witness reviewed the document.)

21
Q
So are they the same?

22 A They are not.

23 Q
They're a little different?

24 A They are.

25 Q
Looks like there might have been some
26
79
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 6 2
1 further tweaking?

2 A A little PR fluff in there.

3 Q
Would you consider the changes to be

4 significant, though?

5 A From the from this one (indicating)?

6 Q
From the one you thought was final, to the

7 final.

8 A From 11-2? I don't think they're

9
significant. I think that they're just a little

10
you can certainly see more of Senator Ensign's voice

11 in the III-4.

12
: Just so the record is

13
clear, we're comparing documents 11E3 and M-4.

14 THE WITNESS: Yes.

15 BY

16 Q
So let's go back to 1113. And it says,
A
21
22 A
23
24
25 A I believe so, or it could have taken place
26
80
17
18
19
20
- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 6 3
1 on a phone call and this was the follow-up e-mail.

2 Q
Were you present during any phone calls

3 where discussed the statement?

4 A I don't recall if I was. If I was in the

5 room with that day, probably. But I don't

6 recall a definitive conversation with

7 Q
But do you ever recall sitting there with

8 the phone on speaker and being able to hear

9 talk about the statement?

10 A Yes, I think so.

11 Q
Okay. And so tell us what you can recall

12 about that conversation.

13 A
14

15 Q
Sure.

16 A I believe at this point, it was that we

17 didn't want Senator Ensign,

18
19
20
21
22

23 A
24
25
26
81
- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 6 4
1
2 A
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
With
A Yes.
At any point were you asked to leave the
82
11 room because there was a discussion where legal
12 advice was communicated?
13 A I don't remember if that took place that
14 day or down -- I mean, certainly down the road we
15 used to have conversations where we would have to
16 leave the room.
17
Q
I'll get to that.
18 A Okay.
19 Q
But on this particular day, did that
20 happen, do you recall?
21 A I don't remember.
22 Q
It's a long time ago, I understand. I'm
23 going to ask lots of questions, and you're doing a
24 great job, being perfectly candid and honest, so I
25 appreciate that.
26
IMME-SSCE0001065
Do you recall if the Senator was on these
calls or
A I don't remember if Senator Ensign was on
the calls that we had at a staff level or if
was communicating to him what was being discussed on
the call.

9 I remember having a conversation where

10 Senator -- I'm sorry, Senator Ensign was on

11 speakerphone. That was tight before he spoke to

12 staff. And I think that that was when we were kind

13 of hashing out statement.

14 But again, I don't remember if he was on

15 these phone calls or if was communicating to

16 him what was being discussed on the calls.

17 Q At any point during the day of the 16th,

18 did you directly talk with Senator Ensign to confirm

19 information or ask questions at all?

20 A No, I don't believe so.

21 Anyone else have anything else

22 on these topics?

23 BY

24 Q
Yeah, I just want to clarify something you

25 said, explaining the difference between

26
83
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 6 6
84
1 position and position. As you recall,
2

I think you testified wanted it

3

either on background or down the road; correct?

4

A Yes.
5

And you said you believed

6 agreed with that; is that correct?
7
8
9
10
A Yes.


11 A
12
13
14 BY
15 Q
And you recall --
16 A
17
18 BY
19
20
21 A No.
22
23
24 A
25
26
- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 6 7
Is that your opinion now or do you recall
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8

9 Q And why wouldn't anyone want it out there?

10 Was it seen as a negative versus a positive? Were

11

the pros and cons discussed?

12 A
13
14
15
16
17
18
19

20 that being the discussion at the time?

21

A No, I recall that being the discussion.

22

Q Okay.
23
24

25 A
26
85
- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 6 8
1
2
3
4
5
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16 A
17
18
19
20 Q
Was that at that time when you were
21
talking about the initial statement or was that a
22 few weeks down the road?
23 A This could have been the next day or the
24
initial day. It certainly was in a short timeframe.
25 BY
26
86
ME-SSCE0001069
Yes, yes.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 A Well, it wasn't in the statement but it
24
was obviously something that Senator Ensign would
25 have wanted to address at some point. It certainly
26
87
1 1 1 1 .1 I- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 70
1 was on his mind that this came out. It was just a

2 matter of how we get that out there, the best way to

3 go about doing so.

4 Q
How did you know it was on the Senator's

5 mind?

6 A It was discussed. He certainly had

7 discussed that they had done so after the fact. I

8 think in his mind, from what I can garner, he had

9
done a lot of covering up over that past year, and I

10 think that he just wanted to be done with -- he just

11 wanted to get everything out there and it was kind

12 of what's the best way to go about doing so.

13
14
15
16
17

18

A Yes.

19 Q
And you recall those types of discussions

20
in particular. Anything else about the statement

21 and what would go in or not go into it that you can

22 recall sort of having, you know, Illstrategy about?

23 A Not that I can recall. I mean, obviously

24 you have e-mail chains where the discussion was

25 pretty clear on what -- on the back and forths of

26
IIIIII- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 71
88
1 the drafting of the statement.

2
Q
I'm just trying to get your recollections.

3 I may show you things today to refresh your

4 recollection, but you have pretty good recall, so I

5 want to just see what you might know about.

6 A I can just say that this is -- a lot of

7 this day is a blur, and the drafting of statement is

8 just not anything tht any of us would have ever

9 thought that we would be doing. So a lot of the in

10 and outs, details of it, kind of tend to blur

11 together when it comes to the drafting of this

12 particular statement.

13
Q
Would it be fair to say that you all

14 discussed the drafting of the statement a lot that

15 day?

16 A Once Senator Ensign landed, yes. And

17 there was only a short period of time between when

18 he landed and when he was going to be giving his

19 press conference, so it wasn't a long, drawn-out

20 conversation as much as it was just quick

21 decisionmaking at this time.

22
Q
Do you know how much time it was?

23 A I mean, I think our press conference was

24 maybe around 3:00 or 4:00 Nevada time so -- I don't

25 remember it being a lot of time. Again, I will tell

26
89
MIIII- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 72
you that this day just for a lot of us just went by

2 very slow in the morning and very quick at the end.

3 : Okay. I would like to take a

4 short break now. Off the record.

5 (Recess.)

6 BY

7 Q
I'd like to remind you what you're still

8 under oath,

9 A Okay.

10 Q Couple of questions from my colleagues to

11 follow up here.

12 BY

13 Q
Just to clarify. On that day or two,

14 16th, 17th, when you all were discussing the issue

15 of the statements,
16
17

18 A
19
20
21
22
23
24

25 Q
Correct. But at that time?
26
90
S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 73
A At that time, without the weight that that

2 word carries, yes, we were using that word.

3 Thank you.

4
BY
5
6
7
8

9 A
10
11
12
13
14
15

16 Q
And there was no discussion among the

17 people --

18 A No.
19
20

21 A No, not at that time.

22 BY

23 Q
One last question on this issue and then I

24 want to move on. If you could look again,

25 please, on the last page, 411. The section I had

26
91
EIB
SSCE0001074
1
2
3
4
5
6
8

9 A I don't -- I don't recall that being

10 discussed at this time. No.

11 Q So at that time would you have learned a

12 specific amount, do you think?

13 A I did not know a number amount at that

14
time. I didn't learn a number amount until

15 went on show in Las Vegas.

16 Q My next question, it's like you have ESP.

17
Okay. Besides working on the statement,

18
were you all tasked with giving out any background

19 information at all that day?

20 A I was not. I believe that -- I believe

21 that
was in contact with reporters in the

22
state. I think.' was in contact with

23 for background information.

24

25 Q
Okay. I'm going to show you a document
26
92
- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 75
1 we're going to mark

2 (Exhibit II-5 identified.)

3 BY

4 Q
Bates number is 000166 to 167.

5
(Witness reviewed the document.)

6 A Okay.

7 Q
Are you copied on this e-mail, do you

8 know?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Okay. Can you just describe what this

11 document is for the record?

12 A Well, this document would have been all

13
the background information that we would give to a

14
reporter. The top obviously sets up the dates that

15 they would need for their stories, and then Senator

16 Ensign's statement, and then statement for

17 the record.

18 Q
Okay. And is this what you were referring

19 to when I asked you about background information?

20 Is this the kind of thing would have been

21 giving out?

22 A Yes.

23 Q
And do you have an understanding,

24
there's -- I just lost the page, I apologize. On

25
the first page, there, there's an e-mail from John
26
93
- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 76
1 to several people, including you as a copyee,

2 or you're copied.
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10

11 Q
Now, you mentioned just a moment ago that

12 you didn't learn an amount until went

13 on show?

14 A Yes.

15 Q
Could you explain what you mean by that?

16 A
gave a pretty in-depth

17 interview to
who is a political pundit

18 back in Las Vegas, on affair with Senator

19 Ensign, and Illmentioned the money that was given

20 from -- by Senator Ensign's family.

21 Q
And do you recall what said about the

22 money?

23 A I remember that he wasn't very clear on

24 what the money was for, and I remember being

25
kind of inconsistent with what Illsaid, the money
26
94
S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 77
1 was given to but then the money was also

2 given to You probably have a transcript of

3 that.

4 Q
I do. I have a transcript I can show you
to refresh your recollection. And since I know we

6
don't want to read all of it today, I am going to

7 tab the page that you can look at, okay. And this

8 is part 1 and part 2 of the interview.

9
And this document is not Bates stamped,

10
but it is a transcript of a July 8, 2009 interview

11 with

12 A I think I transcribed that, so

13 Q
I was going to ask you. Lucky you. There

14 you go. And that would be Ilk.

15
(Exhibit 1116 identified.)

16
(Witness reviewed the document.)

17 THE WITNESS: Okay.

18 BY

19 Q
Without asking you to read every single

20
section or every single question and answer here,

21
I'm going to start at the top here. It's

22
speaking, andillIrefers to a New York Times

23
article that indicated that a person close to the

24 Ensign family stated that was dismissed

25
from his political team with a severance that was
26
95
1 1 1 1 =- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 78
96

1 paid from his own pocket. Is that true? Do you see

2 answer there?

3 A Yes.

4 Q
And his answer is?

5 A Yes,

6 Q
And then they go on to talk about

7 severance. What amount does indicate the

8 severance was there? Can you tell?

9 ' A More than 25,000.

10 Q Okay. So it appears it was absolutely

11 more than $25,000, he said.

12 A Uh-huh, yes.
13
14
15

16 Q
Okay.
17

18 A We had watched it, and then we wanted to

19
go back through, transcribe it and kind of refute,

20 if there was anything to refute what had said.

21
We just needed to know what'll was saying publicly

22
about this affair and the aftermath of it.

23 Q
Okay. And you say "we had watched it."

24 Who was "we"?

25 A I watched it, I believe, with

26
E llitS S C E 0 0 0 1 0 79
97
1
I think -- I don't recall if Senator
2
Ensign was there for this. He gave two interviews.
3
I don't know which one Senator Ensign watched.
4
probably would have also watched it
5
at this point, and
6

Q
Did Senator Ensign watch one of them,
though, do you know?
8
A
I believe he watched the first one, yes.
9
Q
With you all?
10
A Yes.
11
Q
And whose idea was it to go through and
12
begin to refute what

said?
13
A
I don't. recall who came up with the idea.
14
15
16
A Yes.
17 Q
1
18
A
19
Senator Ensign, and kind of the people in charge at
20
that time -- I believe his lawyers were also given a
21
copy.
certainly would have been given a copy,
22
and we kind of all combed through it
23
24
25
26
together.
- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 80
1
2

3 A There probably was a discussion

4 surrounding it. I don't remember the details of

5
what it would have been or if I would have been in

6
the room for that portion of the discussion.
7
8

9 A
10
11
12
13

14 A
15
16

17 Q
And who put the statement out,
18

19 A
20

21 Q
And do you recall what the statement said

22 to clarify comments?

23 A I believe it was referencing the fact that

24 I think that he gave $96,000.

25 Q
Who is he?
26
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- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 81
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A
2
Q Anything else?
3
A
Not that I can recall.
4
Q
I have it. I'll show it to you.
5
A Okay.
6
Q
I'll show you that now. Also, you
7
mentioned that you transcribed it and provided it.
8
Did Senator Ensign give you any comments on your
9
transcript at all?
10
A
He did. He edited one of them.
11
Q
I'm going to show you a copy of that. I
12
think we're going to mark this 11-7, And
13
unfortunately, it's supposed to be in red and blue,
14
but we don't have fancy printers. Take a moment and
15 look at it
16
(Exhibit 1117 identified.)
17
(Witness reviewed the document.)
18
Can we just have a moment?
19
Sure.
20
(Recess.)
21
BY
22
Q
Back on the record. And
23
you're still under oath, as you know.
24
: Yes.
25
BY
26
1 1 1 .1 1 1 1 1 - S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 82
1 0 0
1
Q . So when you left, you were reviewing the
2
annotated transcript. Could you just describe this
3
document and tell me if you are copied as a sender
4
or rather if you're a sender or recipient.
5
A
6 Q
Okay.. Are you familiar with this
7
document?
8
A
I am, yes,
9
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Q Okay.
18
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/1.111111111111.1111.11111
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A
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MIIIII- S S C E 0 0 0 1 0 83
3 Q I t just looks l i k e the one from the
4 o f f i c i a l transcript page, that's
5 A , I think we had typed some into i t already,
6 and then they had posted from the transcript was
7 online, so I think i t ' s a mixture of what we had
8 already typed and what was posted online, just
9 because already done so much work on
10 So i t appears there should have been an
11 attachment here, 1 with JE
12 notes doc. Would that have been your transcript, .
13 document, do you think?
14 Maybe. I don't r e c a l l what the attachment
15 would be.
16 Q 'Okay. Because there appears to be l i k e
17 there's an embedded transcript and then perhaps --
18 I'm just guessing by looking at i t .
19 A I see what you're saying.
2 0 Q Just trying to figure out what happened,
21 that's a l l .
22 A Okay.
2 3 Q So when you say we sat down, who i s we
24 that sat down and went through the transcript?
2 5 A I t would have been with Senator Ensign.
26

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1 I t would have been probably and
2 Q So as the you guys were going
3 through i t . For what purpose?
4 A Just to see what i s being honest
5 about, what dishonest about, what
6 information i s out there that we didn't put out and
7 now maybe we can comment on. Just kind of f i g u r i n g
8 out i s coming from on a l o t of t h i s .
9 This i s time that spoken p u b l i c l y .
10 Q So to assist you a l l i n dealing with t h i s
11 from a
12 A Yes.
13 Q Is that a f a i r thing to say?
14 A Yes.
15 Q So you've already indicated that whatever
16 notations i n here that r e f l e c t that are bold or
17 would be i n red, those are from the Senator; i s that
18 correct?
19 A Yes.
2 0 But you typed them. I notice that t h i s i s
21 j u s t f o r interview part 1. Is there also an
22 annotated f o r part 2, do you know?
2 3 A You know, I don't r e c a l l . I know that we
24 sat down and spoke about that interview. But
2 5 whether or not he had any edits with t h a t , I don't
26

103
1 know i f that was something that he discussed with me
2 or j u s t d i r e c t l y with his lawyers.
3 Q Okay. .
4 A I haven't found any documents to that
5 e f f e c t .
6 Q Okay. So you're -- I want to go back,
7 your ultimate purpose f o r doing t h i s was to figure
8 out what the d i f f e r e n t -- from a to do
9 from a perspective, but then I notice that i t ' s
10 sent to lawyer. So i t t o , I assume, one of his
11 attorneys as w e l l , then?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay. I t may be b e t t e r to look i n the
14 o f f i c i a l t r a n s c r i p t I gave you on the page that's
15 blue-tabbed. And I believe there's a reference i n
16 there to refers to a New York Times
17 piece, and I think i t was op ed, but i t may have
18 been an a r t i c l e , that says that a person close to
19 the Ensign family or to Mr. Ensign's family who
2 0 spoke only on the condition of anonymity, and t h i s
21 person said that the Senator had confessed the
22 a f f a i r , and he had dismissed

had
paid severance from his own pocket.
24 Did you a l l know who that person was?
25 A I don't know who that person i s , whether
26

104
1 I don't know.
2 Q I'm j u s t asking, did you a l l at the
3 time --
4 A I don't know who that i s .
5 Q Do you r e c a l l discussions about who
6 could have said this?
7 A No, not that I r e c a l l .
8 Q

10 Q Do you have any information or reason t o
believe that know?
12 A Well, I -- I only would assume that maybe
13 would know because was the one going on
14 background with reporters. So I don't know i f
15 that's information that supplied or i f would
16 know maybe put a reporter i n contact with someone
17 to supply that I don't know.
18 Q Do you know i f that p a r t i c u l a r information
19 was ever discussed to be put out on background?
2 0 A I t was not discussed with me.
BY
2 2 Q Going back to the annotated version that
23 you sent around, as we've mentioned, i t ' s only f o r
24 part 1. And you've t e s t i f i e d that you're not
2 5 certain as to whether or not a part 2 annotation
26

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even exists.
A
Q We know the Senator gave you comments and
notes about things that, i t appears from looking
through here, I see absolutely false, false, not
true. I f we look, we can see that i n bold.
Do you r e c a l l having a discussion with the
Senator w i t h regard to discussions on
severance as to what was false or not true?
A I don't r e c a l l that conversation.
Q Now going to show you the actual New
York Times a r t i c l e that we've been r e f e r r i n g to. Or
rather the o f f i c i a l statement. And we're going to
c a l l And i t ' s not Bates stamped, but
i t ' s dated July 10, 2009. Take a moment and look at
that, please.
(Exhibit i d e n t i f i e d . )
(Witness reviewed the document.)
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY
Right. I t was
So now does t h i s refresh your

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Q So what was your role i n g e t t i n g t h i s
statement out? I guess I'm not clear on that.
A I didn't play a big role i n t h i s . This
would have been

working
I j u s t would have been around f o r i t . And Senator
Ensign.

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Q But the

have some r o l e i n
t h i s statement that went out u l t i m a t e l y . Is that
your testimony?
A Yes, u l t i m a t e l y .
Q
A I'm sure i t would have been on an e-mail
t r a i n , the beginning of who drafted i t . I'm not
sure who took the lead on i t . I know eventually i t
came
Q
A No.
Q How about
r a i s i n g t h i s issue?
A Not that I can r e c a l l .
Q
Do you r e c a l l
ever

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A
I assume i t was j u s t above my pay grade,
that there was maybe information that hadn't been
of a statement maybe was incorrect on numbers, that
there was some type of d e t a i l missing i n the
beginning that I p r i v y to or that someone
else didn't have knowledge of that would have
required the to be more streamlined and
more detailed.
shared with me, or that maybe i n an early d r a f t

115
1 Q But you do see a discrepancy, I guess what
2 I'm g e t t i n g at. You can see that they're not the
3 same statement?
4 A Yes, they're not the same statement.
5 ' Q s what
7

those are d i f f e r e n t .
8 Did anybody else comment on that
9 discrepancy i n your presence?
10 A Not to me and not around me, no.
11 Okay. Nothing else from me.
12 You a l l , anything else on this?
BY
14 . Q And then t h i s i s the l a s t on t h i s topic,
15 but we're a c t u a l l y going to move forward i n time to
16 November of 2009. And now I think we're on
17 Bates -- i t ' s not Bated, but i t ' s an
18 e-mail from you that started i n November of 2009 and
19 appears to have a weird date, I guess s p i t out of
20 our system, so ignore the top date, i s what I'm
21 looking to.
22 (Exhibit i d e n t i f i e d . )
24 Q Have a look at t h i s .
2 5 (Witness reviewed the document.)
26

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T e l l me what's going on here i n t h i s
e-mail chain.
A
Q Okay. And so would he have done that i n
November of 2009? In other words, would i t have
been contemporaneous with your e-mail, do you know?
Can you say?
A I would assume so. I don't -- I don't
remember when he asked me to do that, but I do
remember what he asked me to do.
Q And do you r e c a l l any discussions with him
as to why he needed you to go back through?
A
Q He actually gave you the
A
|: Anybody else on t h i s one?

2 Q Now would be a good time, I think, to take
3 a l l the exhibits you have, p i l e them up, so that way
4 we don't lose them.
5 I'd l i k e to go back to t h i s day of the
6 16th which was such a b l u r and j u s t make sure that
7 we haven't missed anything else that you were doing.
8 A Okay.
9 Q So you said that you b a s i c a l l y helped with
10 the e d i t i n g and revising of the statement, and you
11 dealt w i t h Nevada reporters and sort of kept them
12 bay?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you l i s t e n to the that
15 the Senator had i n the o f f i c e that day?
16 A I listened to a portion of i t . I went
17 down and sent out and was w r i t i n g my computer to
18 send out our statement to be i n conjunction with the
19 statement that he was saying i n his press
2 0 conference. So I was there for a p o r t i o n of i t .
21 Q So you didn't hear the whole thing?
2 2 A No.
2 3 Do you r e c a l l what he said f o r the portion
24 that you did hear?
2 5 A I j u s t remember him t e l l i n g s t a f f that he
26

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had made a huge mistake and, you know, j u s t kind of
the same along the lines of what was i n our
statement. You know, he'd obviously caused a l o t of
people a l o t of pain, and he knew that he had l e t
down people i n the o f f i c e .
You also mentioned that you worked with
p r i o r to t h i s
A Yes.
Q Had you worked with
a l l - s t a f f
A Just real quickly on the phone r i g h t

Q I think we saw the f i n a l i n one of those
points there?
A
Q

15 Q Did you a l l have discussions about
16 going to the podium that
17 A I wasn't involved i n those discussions. I
18 t h i n k Senator Ensign didn't want to do that either,
19 I for the same reason of

2 0 s p o t l i g h t under judgment.
21 Q Anything else from the statement that you
22 can recall?
2 3 A
24 Anybody else have anything
2 5 about the statement?
26

2 Q Okay. Crisis has started. Now what?
3 What are you tasked with doing now that he's had his
4 press conference? Now what do you do?
5 A Right now we're j u s t monitoring the news
6 cycles on a basis, sending around every news
7 story, r e a l l y monitoring the Chances are i f
8 something i s reported i n c o r r e c t l y i n a i t gets
9 on a wire story and i t now becomes t r u t h to a
10 reporter. So i t ' s j u s t kind of maintaining that,
11 kind of t r y i n g to keep as much control over the
12 d i f f e r e n t legs of the story that we can.


15 Q Lucky you. So the purpose of monitoring
16 the news cycle was to see what's going out there,
17 and you're looking f o r inaccuracies?
18 A Yes.
19 Q You're r e a l l y concerned about the blogs.
2 0 Is that f a i r to say?
21 A Yes.
22 Q So i f you do come across inaccuracies,
23 what's the process? How do you deal w i t h them?
24 A We would c e r t a i n l y send our statement on
2 5 to them to kind of reinforce what the o f f i c i a l
26

121
1 statement i s on t h i s issue.. And c e r t a i n l y there
2 would be -- i f there was something that was out
3 there that we weren't aware of, which I don't
4 believe happened i n those early days, we would have
5 wrapped back around with everyone who was involved
6 kind of i n the c r i s i s management at t h i s point to
7 see kind of what the next step should be or i f
8 there's a way f o r us to correct t h i s moving forward.
9 But again, that was the point of doing i t ,
10 and I don't remember discrepancies out i n
11 these early days.
12 Q So the early days i t was --
13 A We controlled i t p r e t t y well i n the
14 beginning, yeah.
15 Q I'm j u s t going to show you a couple
16 documents to refresh your r e c o l l e c t i o n as to some of
17 the things you a l l had been doing.
18 Also do you have a personal e-mail account

21 Q I won't bother to show you that. You're
22 sending yourself i s that correct?
2 3 A Yes.
24 Q We saw some of those and I thought they
2 5 were you.
26

122
A Yes.
(Exhibit identified.)


4


5 2009 e-mail. I t ' s a l i t t l e l a t e r i n the process,
6 but I just have a question for you. .
reviewed the document.)
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY

Q you describe the e-mail and
11 confirm that you, i n fact, either received i t or
12 sent i t ?




14 Google alert that I would have gotten for a
15 of Senator Ensign's name i n a story. And I think
16 was j u s t asking i f could send that on to
17 Senator Ensign.
Q you know why you were concerned abor
19 sending anything to Senator Ensign with regard tc
2 0 Google -- i t ' s a Google a l e r t , p r e t t y innocuous.
We t r i e d to only send him new
22 because obviously the same story i s reprinted
23 multiple times i n a publication. So maybe was
24 . checking i f t h i s one been sent before. I don't
2 5 remember there being a concern about i t .
26

123
1 Q Do you ever r e c a l l a time when the
2 Senator -- there was concern about what type of
3 things you sent the Senator substantively?
4 A I know that there was a time when we were
5 taking lawyers o f f of the e-mails that we were
6 sending on news s t o r i e s , j u s t because legal b i l l s
7 were mounting. But I don't remember -- I don't
8 remember the concern surrounding t h i s story.
9 Q Okay. But no substantive things, l i k e
10 don't send the Senator more information about
11 something he already knows, that type of thing?
12 A He d e f i n i t e l y , i f i t was a new news story,
13 he wanted to know that i t was a new story and to
14 kind of denote that i n the subject l i n e . Otherwise,
15 he would j u s t assume i t was a r e p r i n t of an e a r l i e r
16 story and not any new information.
17 Q So I'm going to show you your performance
18 review. I think you drafted i t yourself i n 2 0 09, so
19 you've seen i t . I t ' s going to be

i t ' s a
2 0 six-page document, and i t ' s undated. Take a moment
21 t o look at i t , and we're going to be focused on, I
22 believe, page 4. Page 4.
23 (Exhibit i d e n t i f i e d . )
24 (Witness reviewed the document.)
2 5 THE WITNESS: Okay.
26

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Q And so as I stated, t h i s i s your

A Yeah, i t ' s l i k e a diary entry.
Q I was going to say, and I take i t these
are your words; i s that correct?
A they
Q And there's a sentence i n the f i r s t
paragraph, I believe i t ' s the f i r s t -- i t ' s the
second f u l l sentence, "following Senator Ensign's

That's what you j u s t described to us;
correct?
A
Q Anything else that you d i d sort of i n that
f i r s t week following the c r i s i s that we haven't
touched upon or that's not included i n here?
A No.
Q

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What work are you doing?
A Well, Senator Ensign i s back i n
Washington, D.C., at this point. So he's certainly
being followed around by reporters a l o t more. He's
much more public now, so i t ' s important that we are
kind of with him a l l the time to walk with him, just
because obviously the media onslaught has grown.
Other than that, we're t r y i n g to keep his
p r o f i l e r e l a t i v e l y low and gear up for the August
recess, which would kind of be his f i r s t public
appearance back i n the state since his announcement.
Q
A As much as you can i n the summer, with a
session coming i n and out a l o t , and then him being
i n the -- or i n the state a l l of August.
Q Okay. I'm going to get to August. I just
want to focus on -- and so you were s t i l l referring
to -- or rather monitoring media reports?
A
Q
A I wasn't at that point.

probably deal with that more. I was t r y i n g to s t i l l
operate our o f f i c i a l duties, so putting out

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on l e g i s l a t i v e i n i t i a t i v e s or votes and a l l
that kind of stuff, t r y i n g to get him back i n an
o f f i c i a l role again.
So you were actually doing the business of
the o f f i c e at that time?
A Yes, I was.
Q Someone had to be doing
A
Q A l l r i g h t .
A There were certainly a l o t of questions, a
l o t of apologies he was making to his constituents
during t h i s time. We had a l o t of small constituent
meetings one-on-one with a l o t of his big supporters
or people that certainly took his announcement hard
i n the state, just for them to kind of have
one-on-one frank conversations with Senator Ensign
and for him to l i s t e n to them on t h e i r anger or why
they may be upset with him and for him to kind of
apologize to them. That's pretty much how that

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August recess
Very small public appearances, very small
media access.
And you set those up or
A Well, state s t a f f puts together his

Q So the Fernley Chamber?
A Yes.
Q I skipped something, and I don't want to
miss i t while i t ' s i n my Did you meet with
the Senator at a l l when he came back to D.C.?
A Oh, I did. He held meetings one-on-one

him at his request a f t e r I returned.
Q T e l l me about that meeting with the

A I t was a very frank meeting.
9 Q How do you know that?
10 A t o l d me. sat on a l l of
11 those meetings.
12 Q Did you ask him any questions?
13 A I didn't so much give him a chance to
14 speak as I spoke to him. I think i t was important
15 that the t i t l e be done away with and you kind of
16 speak to him on a personal l e v e l , j u s t because t h i s
17 was a personal i n d i s c r e t i o n .
18 He obviously t o l d me he was working to
19 make amends, he and his family had come to make
2 0 amends. I didn't want to hear a l l that. I'd known
21 that i n the d r a f t i n g of the statements. I
22 wanted a chance to t e l l him how I f e l t about
23
24 Q And so he admitted that he had made a huge
2 5 personal mistake, the biggest mistake, he said, of


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Q Anything else that he said that you can
recall?
A Not that I can r e c a l l . I t was j u s t a

Q Did he mention at a l l statements to the
A No.
Q So you're s t a f f i n g the Senator back i n the
home state, and I imagine those must have been
p r e t t y d i f f i c u l t sessions at times?
A they
Q Do you r e c a l l any conversation with the
Senator during t h i s time i n the home state about
t h i s matter, his disclosure, you know, sort of
following some of the tougher sessions that you can
recall?
A No. I mean obviously, he was brought t o
his knees by the whole experience, and c e r t a i n l y
s i t t i n g l i s t e n i n g to people and t h e i r negative
feedback and tough things that they have to say t o

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you i s n ' t easy for anybody. So there were times he
would be very broken-down about that.
Q to show you just a couple of
e-mails we have from t h i s time period. We won't
p u l l every single one out but we w i l l look at a
couple of them/
I'm going to show you one, not Bates
stamped but the exhibit w i l l and i t ' s an
August 19, 2009 e-mail chain. You can read from the
bottom up, an e-mail from you to
The i s
(Exhibit
(Witness reviewed the document.)
BY

Q can you j u s t t e l l us going on
here and why need to t a l k on t h i s
topic?
A
t h i s i s our AP
reporter at the time, and he was --he had the f i r s t
interview with him at the Fernley Chamber event.
Q Did you and the Senator have a

131
1 conversation about why he didn't resign a f t e r t h i s
2 interchange?
3 A No, not a f t e r t h i s interchange. I j u s t
4 knew he wasn't resigning. I mean, i t was j u s t
5 understood that he going to be doing
6 The question about Clinton was from
7 statements that he made during his days i n the
8 House, when he had c a l l e d f o r Clinton's resignation,
9 so that's where t h i s comes i n t o play.
10 Q Okay. And d i d the Senator -- was he
11 concerned about what he had said before? Did he
12 r e c a l l i t ?
13 A He recalled what he had said, and he -- he
14 of j u s t i f i e d i t by saying that, you know,
15 President Clinton had l i e d under oath, he had
16 perjured himself, and that's why he was asking f o r
17 his resignation, not so much because of the a f f a i r .
18 I'm going to show you another
19 not a Batesed e x h i b i t , but i t ' s an August 24 e-mail,
20 and the exhibit number i s And i t ' s e n t i t l e d
"past
22 (Exhibit i d e n t i f i e d . )
2 3 (Witness reviewed the document.)
24 THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY
26

132
So can you describe what's happening i n
2 . e-mail?

This i s just me


4 I don't know i f just gotten back from
and



6 things. I was s t i l l out i n the state with Senator
7 .
believe that he had for his
9 past quotes on what he had said about Larry Craig
10 and President Clinton, just so that he was aware
1 1 moving what his statements had been so i f
contradictions come up i n interviews, he's prepared
13 for what previous.
1 4
Q okay. And then I have one last e-mail
1 8 from t h i s time period, and t h i s would be 14.

BY
Q Again, t h i s i s not Batesed. i s
22 another August 24 e-mail. And you don't need
read the a r t i c l e at the bottom. I'm j u s t looking
24 for the conversation beginning i n the middle e-mai:
reviewed the
26

133
1 A
2 Q Can you j u s t describe what's going on here
3 with regard to him staying on message with the Tahoe
4 strategy?
5. A The thing about Senator Ensign i s he's
6 never wanted to seem l i k e he's hiding anything from
7 anyone back home, he wants to be as
8 forthcoming as he can. Obviously his lawyers have
9 concerns about that, from a perspective, we don't
10 want him creating new stories based on an offhand
11 comment that he gives.
12 So i t was j u s t kind of a hard task f o r us
13 to keep him on message with staying with what our
14 o f f i c i a l statement was, that we were cooperating
15 with any i n q u i r i e s , and kind of what our o f f i c i a l
16 statement was, and hoping that he didn't stray too
17 much from that. We didn't want any new stories
18 created.
19 Q So i t was your job to keep him on message,
2 0 though?
21 A To remind him to stay on message, yes.
22 Q To remind him to stay on message?
2 3 A Yes.
24 Q Was that a hard f o r you at t h i s time?
2 5 A I t can be, yes.
26

11 want to show you an e-mail, and we're going to c a l l
t h i s
13 (Exhibit
14 (Witness reviewed the
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY
17 Q Could you j u s t describe t h i s e-mail f o r
18 the record, please. This chain.
A This would have been a new story that I
2 0 sent around to everyone on our e-mail l i s t . And
21 obviously responded that corrected two of
22 the things that were f a c t u a l l y inaccurate i n the
2 3 story.
Q Who i s
25 A I believe must have been the reporter.
26

135
1 Q Okay. And so do you r e c a l l discussions
2 about, you know, t h i s needs to be corrected, t h i s
3 p a r t i c u l a r a r t i c l e ?
4 A No. There would have been an e-mail chain
5 that followed that, i f there was a back and f o r t h
6 with lawyers. I'm sure maybe - - o r Senator
7 Ensign maybe called or there was some
8 discussion w i t h as to what needed to
9
10 Q So you mentioned j u s t now that Senator
11 Ensign may have called Would corrections come
12 from Senator Ensign?
13 A I f he saw something that he thought would
14 be inaccurate and he wanted i t dealt with, he would
15 give you a heads up that t h i s i s what he was looking
16 at, and i f you didn't agree or i f you thought that
17 maybe t h i s wasn't something worth dealing, i t would
18 j u s t be a conversation that you would have.
19 His lawyers may also have brought
2 0 something forward that they wanted corrected.
21 Q But Senator Ensign himself would, i f there
2 2 was something out there that was inaccurate, he
2 3 would l e t you a l l know that he wanted to have that
24 challenged. I s that accurate?
2 5 A Yes.
26

136
1 Q You mentioned also e a r l i e r you talked
2 about a f t e r the announcement and you had come back
3

that there were I guess
4 where you a l l would get together and
5 t a l k about how to deal with t h i s . Could you j u s t
6 describe sort generally how that worked?
7 A Well, i n the couple of days a f t e r the
8 announcement, came on as part of a
9 c r i s i s management person to help us get through that
10 couple of days. I believe he may have stayed on
11 through August or the end of that summer. So a l o t
12 of those would be kind of strategy sessions what
13 information was out there. We would only r e a l l y
14 have those conversations i f some new information
15 came to l i g h t i n the press or i f we wanted to get
16 some type of information out there. And we would
17 j u s t kind of have conference c a l l s where we would
18 kind of discuss as a team what we wanted to do.
19 Senator Ensign may or may not have been involved i n
2 0 some of those c a l l s and then he and his lawyers
21 would discuss things.
22 Q So you said he and his lawyers would
23 discuss things. Were there separate c a l l s w i t h the
24 Senator and his attorneys that were from
2 5 the c a l l s that you might have with
26

137
1 A I believe Senator Ensign was i n contact
2 with his lawyers a l o t more than we were i n contact
3 with his lawyers, so I think that would be a safe
4 assumption.
5 Q Do you ever r e c a l l being asked to drop
6 a c a l l because there would be f u r t h e r discussion
7 with lawyers?
8 A Yeah. There were times where we would go
9 i n , kind of lay out what the reporter question i s ,
10 what the story i s looking l i k e , kind of give our
11 perspective on i t , and then we would leave the c a l l
12 while Senator Ensign discussed with his attorneys,
13 and then Senator Ensign would kind of come out and
14 l e t us know what we were going to be doing moving
15 forward or he would have us c a l l one of his
16 attorneys back to f i n i s h up the c a l l .
17 Q But i f legal advice was given, they would
18 ask you guys, we need you to step out of the room?
19 A Yes, yeah.
2 0 Q So i f you were on a c a l l , you guys were
21 p r i m a r i l y discussing s t u f f . Is that f a i r to say?
2 2 A Yes.
BY

24 Q I'm sorry, what was role
2 5 again?
26

138
1 A was helping us with c r i s i s management
2 i n the f i r s t couple of weeks of the announcement.
3 Q And c r i s i s management i n a sense,
4 managing message?
5 A
BY

8 Q Who would be on these c a l l s from s t a f f ?
9 A Well, i t c e r t a i n l y would have been
10 and I was i n some of them, not i n a l l of
11 them. maybe not, j u s t kind of was
12 depending on what was going on.
13

involved i n some of them.


15 when s t i l l maybe would have been
16 involved i n some of them, c e r t a i n l y not a l l of them.
17 And obviously Senator Ensign.
18 Q But the whole would be on them,
19 i s that f a i r to say?
2 0 A Yes.
Q Now, you mentioned

22 haven't heard name i n a while. What was
2 3 doing during t h i s timeframe? Were you working w i t h
24 at a l l ?
2 5 A I don't r e a l l y know what was
26

139
1 doing during t h i s timeframe. was gone from our
2 o f f i c e the morning of the announcement. The night
3 of -- the morning of the i n our
4 o f f i c e .
5 came i n t o our o f f i c e f o r the conference
6 c a l l , and then l e f t . And then the day,
7 wasn't at work. I don't know what was
8 was somewhat involved i n some of these
9 discussions, but more j u s t as a body i n the room,
10 not as an actual -- I don't know, didn't r e a l l y
11 partake i n anything.
12 Q Now, you mentioned early on t h i s morning
13 that, you know, i f you a l l had you
14 would go t o sometimes to get approval f o r
15 things or to get Was that happening with
16 regard to t h i s matter?
17 A was on some of the e-mails.
18 sign-off c e r t a i n l y wasn't as important as Senator
19 Ensign's sign-off was on some things. And sometimes
2 0 wouldn't respond to e-mails.
22 Q That's okay, we
23 A Okay. So t
24 as playing a big during a l l of t h i s
2 5 c r i s i s management.
26

140
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Q Around t h i s time, d i d you
leaving?
A I learned that was leaving when
I was i n a car going to lunch and
Senator Ensign had a f t e r a meeting that
had with l e t t i n g know that
going to be leaving our o f f i c e at the end of August
or whenever termination
Q And around what time would that have been?
You were with so i t means i t wasn't August
recess; right?
A Right. I t was probably July or i t was
c e r t a i n l y i t was probably a Thursday or a Friday.
Senator Ensign tends to f l y back to state on
Thursdays or
BY
Q Did t e l l you -- f i r s t of a l l , d i d
you overhear what the Senator was t e l l i n g
A No, I didn't. I j u s t knew that he was
t a l k i n g to on the I t know what was
discussed. j u s t relayed to me that
Q
A
Did
give any more d e t a i l s about i t ?

142
17 And you also mentioned that you somehow
18 knew or had heard that i n other one-on-one meetings
19 that there were complaints How had you
2 0 heard that?
21 A I think s t a f f when we knew we were going
2 2 to be able to have one-on-one meetings that
2 3 week kind of saw t h i s as a culmination of a l o t of
24 the f r u s t r a t i o n we'd been having w i t h the
2 5 organization of the o f f i c e beforehand, and a l o t of
26

143
1 them were seeing t h i s as an opportunity to vent
2 those since t h i s would be a frank
3 meeting where you wouldn't r e a l l y have to worry
4 about your r o l e i n the o f f i c e being i n jeopardy or
5 whatever i t may be or protocol, you could kind of
6 j u s t t e l l him how i t was. That was a good
7 opportunity to do so.
8 Q Did people express f r u s t r a t i o n about
9 A Oh, I'm sure they did. I didn't because I
10 didn't have any d i r e c t working r e l a t i o n s h i p with
11 but I'm sure leg. were often confused on the
13 and reporting and a l l that kind of
14
15 But again, I didn't have any --
16 Q Did someone -- you might have overheard
17 that or someone said oh, yeah, the problem.
18 A Yeah, yeah, there were a l o t of
19 f r u s t r a t i o n s
BY
21 Q One question. Going back to the morning
22 of June 16, I think that you mentioned that
2 3 was not i n the o f f i c e that morning. Did
24 anyone mention to you that had gone to see
2 5 Senator employment counsel?
26

144
1 A No. He t o l d us that he was making phone
2 c a l l s , and that's why he wasn't around. We knew
3 that he had held kind of a meeting with state s t a f f
4 before he met with s t a f f to kind of l e t them
5 know everything that was going on, and a l o t of
6 people i n D.C. were obviously very upset at that,
7 considering that they weren't l e t i n on i t before
8 state s t a f f was.
9 But no, there was no mention of where he
10 had gone that day.
record f o r
13 second.
14 (Discussion o f f the record.)
15 Back on the record.
BY
17 Q I ' l l say t h i s hopefully f o r
18 the l a s t time today, but maybe not. But you're
19 s t i l l under oath. Do you understand that?
2 0 A Yes.
21 Q Great. Okay. We'd l i k e -- we're going
22 back to 2009, and t h i s i s a f t e r the Senator has made
23 his disclosure.
24 At some point during that summer, d i d you
25 learn that The New York Times was going to publish
26

145
1 an a r t i c l e that discussed alleged lobbying ban
2 v i o l a t i o n s by with your office?
3 A The New York Times -- we had heard
4 rumblings from some former Ensign s t a f f e r s that they
5 had been contacted by The New York Times about a
6 couple months beforehand, and then The New York
7 Times approached us with the information that they
8 had gathered.
And



10 down w i t h them and j u s t kind of had them present
11 what they had. We recorded what they had. We typed
12 that up, a t r a n s c r i p t of that. And then we combed
13 through that on our own.
14 Q Let's go back to the f i r s t thing you said.
15 You said that you a l l had heard rumblings from a
16 couple of former employees. What do you mean by
17 rumblings? And then who -- which former employees?
18 A I don't know the names of the former
19 employees. I t was j u s t brought to my a t t e n t i o n by
2 0

j u s t that some s t a f f e r s had maybe
21 contacted that they had been contacted by The
2 2 New York Times reporters,


2 3 Q So you were hearing s t i l l hearing from
24

t h i s matter?
25 A Well, yeah, because would have been
26

146
1 around i n those f i r s t couple of months that The
2 New York Times was reaching out to people.
3 Ultimately was t h e i r contact

4 l e f t . But was s t i l l i n our o f f i c e .
5 Q Do you r e c a l l

6 A Well, came on, I think, o f f i c i a l l y
7 i n maybe

that year.
8 Q Okay.
9 A And I think l e f t some point i n early
10 There was an overlap.
11 Q There was an overlap?
12 A There was overlap.
13 Q And did the s t a f f e r s indicate why they had
14 been contacted by The New York Times?
15 A Not to me.
16 Q But

t h i s to you?
17 A Yeah, I'm sure, yeah.
18 Q What did the



19 for --
2 0 A We didn't do anything. We didn't know
21 what they had. We didn't know any of t h e i r
22 allegations. I t was j u s t kind of something on our
2 3 radar. You often hear about that when reporters are
24 looking f o r background information, reaching out to
2 5 former s t a f f e r s .
26

147
1 Q Do you know i f Senator Ensign was made
2 aware of the rumblings?
3 A I don't know i f he was.
4 Q So you said at some point, The
5 New York Times approached o f f i c e . Do you know
6 who they approached?
7 A Yes. They e-mailed

8 they asked to come i n and kind of present the
9 information that they had gathered and obviously
10 wanted to s i t down with Senator Ensign. Obviously
11 we would agree t o that and so they
12 came i n and kind of l a i d out the story that they
13 were b u i l d i n g and the supplemental facts they had to
14 support i t and gave us a week or two to kind of put
15 together what our responses would be and i f we would
16 allow f o r an interview with Senator Ensign.
17 Q Okay. So were you at the meeting where
18 they l a i d out t h e i r --
19 A I wasn't. We recorded i t on our l i t t l e
2 0 recorder, and then I typed up that t r a n s c r i p t . And
21 then we gave that t r a n s c r i p t to lawyers and Senator
22 Ensign to review.
2 3 Q Okay. I'm going to show you a couple of
24 exhibits, j u s t to refresh your r e c o l l e c t i o n and
25 confirm that these might be the t r a n s c r i p t s . There


148
1 are two d i f f e r e n t documents. The f i r s t i s an e-mail
2 w i t h an attachment dated Thursday, September 24,
3 2009, and the Bates range i s 000102 to 108. This
4 would be
5 (Exhibit i d e n t i f i e d . )
6 MS. FORD: And the second would be --
7 doesn't have a cover sheet so I apologize, but i t ' s
8 Bates numbered 001385 to 1391. This would be
9 (Exhibit i d e n t i f i e d . )
10 (Witness reviewed the document.)
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.

13 Q Are you ready?
14 A Yes.
15 Q A l l r i g h t . So i t appears as i f one of
16 these e x h i b i t s , and I guess that would be i s
17 f o r - - i s dated September 24, and the other one i s
18 dated 29th; i s that correct?
19 A Yeah.
2 0 Q Okay. And do you know i f they were two
21 separate sit-down meetings with the New York time?
22 A There were. The New York Times came to us
23 f o r the f i r s t time with t h i s information. We
24 obviously went back, went through our records,
2 5 refuted what we can, and then we sat down with them
26

149
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2
3
4
5
6
7
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
again to present that information to them. Then
they came back with additional information.
Q . And that would be the second meeting here?
That would be the second meeting, yes.
I knew you would say
(Laughter.)
Okay. And so let's go back to the f i r s t
transcript

THE WITNESS: Oh,
personal e-mail.

Q So then after they meet with them, t e l l me
what you a l l do a
A Well, we certainly put together the
t r a n s c r i p t . We reviewed i t , and then I believe that
i t went to Senator Ensign's lawyers and Senator
Ensign.

was over at this time, also came down on
own because would have been the
during some of t h i s period of time, and we
kind of t r i e d to recollect what we about
8 a l o t of the that they were presenting with

Q so who asked

11 know?

think maybe

know.
Q So you a l l went through the transcript
together. And then what were you tasked with doing?
A I mean, our goal was obviously to
establish that Senator Ensign had long advocated for
these Nevada companies and we had a long history of
18 doing so, and that the work that

with them was simply p a r a l l e l to work that we had
2 0 already been doing with them.
And we t r i e d to come up with as much
documentation, whether that be l e t t e r s to, you know,
Secretary LaHood or whoever at the time, to kind of
j u s t i f y that this is work that we had been that
2 5 had been ongoing i n our o f f i c e .
26
13
14
15
16
17
21
22
23
24

151
1 Q Whose i d e a was i t , because you s a i d "our
2 g o a l . " Whose i d e a was i t t o have t h a t as y o u r g o a l ?
3 A Well,' I mean, t h a t was what t h e p o i n t o f
4 t h e s t o r y was, f o r us t o be a b l e t o r e f u t e t h a t he
5 wasn't d o i n g work f o r t h e s e companies because
6

7 Ensign's -- c e r t a i n l y h i s c l e a r d i r e c t i v e t h a t he
8 had been d o i n g t h i s work f o r t h e s e companies f o r a
9 l o n g t i m e .
10 Q And do you r e c a l l t a l k i n g w i t h S e n a t o r
11 E n s i g n about t h e f a c t t h a t he -- t h a t t h e o f f i c e had
12 been --
13 A There were a c o u p l e o f c o n v e r s a t i o n s on
14 t h i s . I remember i f t h e y t o o k p l a c e w i t h me
15 w i t h t h i s f i r s t one o r i f i t was t h e second one.
16 But c e r t a i n l y , he was v e r y f r u s t r a t e d t h a t t h e r e was
17 b e i n g a c o n n e c t i o n drawn between and
18

work f o r t h e s e
19
2 I n e v e r spoke w i t h him about i f he spoke
21 w i t h o r any o f t h a t about t h i s s t u f f .
22 I'm n o t -- I d i d n ' t u n d e r s t a n d y o u r l a s t
23 s t a t e m e n t . You're s a y i n g w i t h r e g a r d t o t h i s
24 a r t i c l e , you d o n ' t know i f t h e Senator spoke t o him?
25 A I d i d n ' t have any d i r e c t c o n v e r s a t i o n s
26

152
1 w i t h S e n a t o r E n s i g n about m e n t i o n i n
2 h e r e and t h e work t h a t d i d w i t h
3 That was n o t p a r t o f t h e work t h a t I was
4 i n v o l v e d i n .
5 My work was t o f i n d d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h a t
6 w o u l d back up t h a t we as an o f f i c e had been w o r k i n g
7 f o r t h e s e Nevada companies l o n g b e f o r e
8 came on b o a r d .
9 Q So t h e n was someone -- was someone
10 r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t a l k i n g t o t h e S e n a t o r about what
was d o i n g w i t h do you know?
12 A Not t h a t I'm aware o f .
13 Q So d i d anybody -- a g a i n , t a l k i n g about t h e

15 and s i n c e t h e y appear t o have been w o r k i n g on
16 . t h i s p r o j e c t . I s t h a t f a i r t o say?
17 A Uh-huh.
18 Q Do you know a t some p o i n t , d i d someone
19 say, w e l l , who i s g o i n g t o t a l k w i t h t h e S e n a t o r
2 0 about t h e a l l e g a t i o n s and
21 w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r , do you know?
2 2 A I wasn't a p a r t o f t h o s e c o n v e r s a t i o n s . I
2 3 assume --
24 Q Do you know i f t h e y o c c u r r e d ?
2 5 A I d o n ' t know t h a t t h e y o c c u r r e d . I
26

153
1 assumed maybe t h a t w o u l d be a l a w y e r t h i n g .
BY
3 Q Can I j u s t ask about t h a t ? D i d anyone
4 doubt t h a t a c t u a l l y been a s k i n g


a c t i o n s on b e h a l f o f t h o s e
6 companies?
7 A I t h i n k t h a t when we h e a r d what t h e
8 a l l e g a t i o n s were f r o m New York Times, I t h i n k t h a t
9 my f e e l i n g was shocked t h a t t h e r e had been t h i s
10 y e a r ' s w o r t h o f work b e h i n d t h e scenes t h a t we
11 w e r e n ' t aware o f and t h a t

one
12 h e a d i n g i t up.
13 t o me was s u r p r i s i n g , b u t i t made
14 t h i n g s f i t t o g e t h e r . When you w o r r i e d about h i s
15 c o n c e r n w i t h t h e m e e t i n g -- l u n c h m e e t i n g , Senator
16 E n s i g n ' s concern w i t h t h a t , and when you p u t i n t o
p e r s p e c t i v e f e e l i n g s about
18 l e g . s t a f f n o t w o r k i n g I
19 t h i n k t h a t a l l o f t h a t made sense when we r e c e i v e d
2 0 t h i s f r o m them.
21 Q A l l r i g h t . L e t me e x p l o r e t h a t a l i t t l e
22 b i t . B u t f i r s t s t a r t back a t t h e p r e m i s e . So you
23 were shocked, b u t i n t h e end, y o u ' r e n o t aware o f
24 anyone w o r k i n g t o d i s p u t e t h a t b a s i c p r e m i s e t h a t
2 5 had been d o i n g t h a t work
26

154
1 o v e r t h e year?
2 A
3 Q Okay. So t h e r e was no a c t i v e -- nobody
4 was engaged i n d i s p u t i n g t h a t ?
5 A W e l l , on o u r s t a f f a t
6 t h i s p o i n t , and t h e r e c e r t a i n l y wasn't communication
7 w i t h So i t wasn't o u r j o b t o d i s p u t e t h a t as
8 much as i t was t o a s s e r t t h a t Senator E n s i g n d i d n ' t
9 have a r o l e i n
10 Q Okay. W e l l , t h a t ' s a n o t h e r avenue t h a t we
11 need t o e x p l o r e , t h e d i s t i n c t i o n . F i r s t o f a l l ,
12 o b v i o u s l y , anyone c o u l d have p i c k e d up t h e phone and
13 c a l l e d t h e y wanted t o ?
14 A We weren't s p e a k i n g w i t h

15 t h i s p o i n t . We were d i r e c t e d n o t t o .
16 had r e t a i n e d c o u n s e l .
17 Q A l l r i g h t . So t h a t ' s one p o i n t . Then you
18 s a i d t h a t y o u r j o b was t o show t h a t t h e S e n a t o r was
19 n o t i n v o l v e d i n what, was d o i n g w i t h
21 A Our u n d e r s t a n d i n g f r o m a
22

o b j e c t i v e w i t h t h i s s t o r y was
2 3 t o p r o v e t h a t o u r o f f i c e had l o n g a d v o c a t e d f o r
24 t h e s e companies. The r o l e t h a t p l a y e d i n
2 5 t h a t advocacy w i t h

something
26

155
1 t h a t we were w o r k i n g t o w a r d on t h i s s t o r y .
2 Q Okay. But you d i d -- you d i d add one
3 e x t r a l i t t l e p i e c e i n t h e r e j u s t a m i n u t e ago, w h i c h
4 was something about t h e S e n a t o r ' s knowledge o f
w i t h
6 A R i g h t . I d o n ' t know what h i s knowledge
7 was o f work w i t h -- I can t e l l you t h a t
8. he was s u r p r i s e d when The New York Times came t o us
9 w i t h t h i s and when we p r e s e n t e d i t t o him. He was
10 s u r p r i s e d a t t h e a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t t h e y had.
11 I d o n ' t have background i n f o r m a t i o n as t o
12 what c o n v e r s a t i o n s t o o k p l a c e between and
13 John E n s i g n .
14 Q Do you know s p e c i f i c a l l y what he was
15 s u r p r i s e d - - d o you want t o do t h a t ?
Go ahead.
BY
18 Q Do you know s p e c i f i c a l l y he was
19 s u r p r i s e d about i n t h e a l l e g a t i o n s ?
2 0 A I t h i n k t h a t he was s u r p r i s e d t h a t t h e r e
21 was maybe -- t h e y were t r y i n g t o make a c o n n e c t i o n
2 2 t h a t we were c i r c u m v e n t i n g t h e l o b b y i n g ban. I
23 t h i n k t h a t t h a t ' s what h i s c o n c e r n c e n t e r e d on.
24 Q I s t h a t because he was s u r p r i s e d t h a t
25 had any c o n t a c t w i t h a t a l l , o r i s
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1 t h a t because t h e s t o r y t h a t he w o u l d have done t h e s e
2 t h i n g s f o r NV Energy and A l l e g i a n t no m a t t e r who was
3 l o b b y i n g f o r them?
4 A I don't know. I know t h a t he would say
5 t h a t he w o u l d do t h e s e t h i n g s f o r t h i s company.
6 That w o u l d be my u n d e r s t a n d i n g . A g a i n , I c a n ' t
7 speak t o what he knew about o r what
8 c o n v e r s a t i o n s may have t a k e n p l a c e between t h e two
9 o f them o r i f he was aware t h a t was i n
10 c o n t a c t That I d o n ' t know.
11 Q So you're n o t aware o f anybody w o r k i n g on
12 t h a t a s p e c t o r what t h e work was?
13 A No.
14 Q And y o u ' r e n o t aware o f anybody d i s p u t i n g
15 t h a t t h e Senator was aware o f -- t h a t was
16 h a v i n g c o n t a c t w i t h
17 A My o p e r a t i n g , what I o p e r a t e d on, was t h a t
18 John E n s i g n was n o t o f t h i s . T h a t was my
19 o p e r a t i o n j u s t f r o m my p e r s p e c t i v e . I b e l i e v e d t h a t
2 0 John E n s i g n was n o t aware t h a t was w o r k i n g
21 w i t h t h e s e Nevada companies t o h e l p
22 That's t h e assumption I o p e r a t e d on.
2 3 Q Okay. Were t h e r e any f a c t s t h a t u n d e r l i e d
24 t h a t a s s u m p t i o n o r t h a t b a s i s ?
2 5 A t h a t I had.
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1 So i t was y o u r p e r s o n a l f e e l i n g ?
2 A Yes.
BY
5 Q J u s t because you've m e n t i o n e d t h a t t h e
6 S e n a t o r was f r u s t r a t e d , and I w r o t e down what you
7 s a i d , by t h e c o n n e c t i o n between what y o u r o f f i c e had
8 been d o i n g f o r t h e s e companies and by t h e a r t i c l e s
9 making a c o n n e c t i o n between what was g o i n g on
between and And you a l s o s a i d t h a t
11 you t h o u g h t he was s u r p r i s e d t h a t t h a t c o n n e c t i o n
12 was b e i n g made. I s t h a t --
13 A Yes.
14 Yes. J u s t s o r t o f t o -- you know, because
15 I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t you a l l w e r e n ' t d e a l i n g w i t h what
conduct was, because d i d n ' t work i n t h e
17 o f f i c e , I g e t t h a t . But was t h e S e n a t o r s u r p r i s e d
18 t o l e a r n , i n f r o n t o f you, a t some p o i n t d i d he say,
19 gee, I'm s u r p r i s e d t o see t h a t t h e y were h a v i n g
2 0 t h e s e c o n v e r s a t i o n s ?
21 A I d o n ' t remember i f t h a t was d i s c u s s e d o r
2 2
2 3 Q So you --
24 A I d o n ' t want t o speak t o s o m e t h i n g t h a t I
25 d o n ' t remember f u l l y on t h a t r e g a r d .
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1 Q And I want you
2 A R i g h t .
3 Q I'm a s k i n g you do you r e c a l l h i m s a y i n g
4
5 But you do r e c a l l b e i n g p r e s e n t f o r him
6 e x p r e s s i n g f r u s t r a t i o n about t h e c o n n e c t i o n between
7 t h e o f f i c e ' s work and any sense t h a t t h e r e had been
8 something i m p r o p e r g o i n g on?
9 A
10 Q And when d i d t h a t occur? Was t h a t i n a
11 m e e t i n g o r d i d someone t e l l you t h a t he was
12 f r u s t r a t e d ?
13 a No, i t was i n a m e e t i n g w i t h him, when I
14 gave him t h i s t r a n s c r i p t , and t h e subsequent
15 f o l l o w - u p , t h a t t h i s was such a h a r d c o n n e c t i o n f o r
16 us t o make because we had done so much work f o r
17 t h e s e Nevada companies, and t h e f a c t t h a t
18 now w o r k i n g f o r them, you c o u l d draw t h e l i n e t h a t
19 we were d o i n g t h i s work because

2 0 w o r k i n g f o r them.
21 So i t was us. t r y i n g t o p r o v e t h a t we were
2 2 d o i n g t h i s work anyway. I t h i n k he was f r u s t r a t e d
23 t h a t The New York Times wasn't g e t t i n g t h a t f u l l y ,
24 t h a t t h e y were s t i l l moving f o r w a r d w i t h t h e s t o r y ,
2 5 when he f e l t as t h o u g h we had k i n d o f r e f u t e d a l o t
26

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1 o f t h e i r c l a i m s .
BY
3 Q D i d anybody t r y and g i v e t h e
4 a d v o c a t e s i d e o f t h a t ? D i d anybody say why The
5 New York Times m i g h t n o t c a r e a b o u t t h a t ?
6 A Not meetings t h a t I was i n . Keep
7 i n m i n d t h a t S e n a t o r Ensign's
8 l a w y e r s have had v e r y f r a n k c o n v e r s a t i o n s r e g a r d i n g
9 t h i s t o p i c t h a t

10 been i n v o l v e d i n .
11 We're n o t a s k i n g you about
12 t h o s e because you weren't t h e r e .
13 THE WITNESS:
BY fl^^^HlliH
:
15 Q But were you aware o f anybody s a y i n g w e l l ,
16 what d i d was s t i l l i l l e g a l , w h e t h e r o r n o t we
17 w o u l d have done anyway? l o b b y i n g was
18 s t i l l i l l e g a l , whether o r n o t we w o u l d have a c t e d on
19 t h e i r r e q u e s t , no m a t t e r who t h e l o b b y i s t was?
20 A W e l l , o f course we w o u l d agree
21 would be i l l e g a l . But when we're
22 t r y i n g t o say t h a t we were w o r k i n g w i t h t h e s e
23 companies b e f o r e came on b o a r d ,
24 b e i n g t h e i r l o b b y i s t d i d n ' t come i n t o p l a y
25 w i t h t h e f a c t t h a t we were a l r e a d y a d v o c a t i n g on
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2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
b e h a l f of these companies.
Q I understand. A l l I'm -- I u n d e r s t a n d
t h a t p o i n t , and I'm not t r y i n g t o have -- I promise
you I'm n o t t r y i n g t o have a l e g a l debate w i t h you.
I'm t r y i n g t o determine your r e c o l l e c t i o n
whether anybody was t a k i n g c e r t a i n p o s i t i o n s back
t h e n o r whether anybody -- whether t h e r e any
d i s c u s s i o n o f t h a t whether or n o t t h e y were a c t i n g
on b e h a l f o f p e r s o n a l l y , t h a t t h e
o f f i c e had a problem w i t h h e l p i n g
lobby.
A A b s o l u t e l y t h e o f f i c e would have a problem
w i t h h e l p i n g lobby i f i t was i n h i s
year of l o b b y i n g ban. I t h i n k t h a t was common
between

myself, t h a t


l o b b y our o f f i c e , t h a t would be i l l e g a l , i n t h a t i t
would be i n year l o b b y i n g ban.
Q And t h a t was d i s c u s s e d a t t h e time?
A
Q Okay. And d i d d i s p u t e t h a t
t o you i n your presence t o your r e c o l l e c t i o n ?
A That i t would n o t be i l l e g a l ?
Q

161
1 A No.
2 Okay. Thank you.
BY
4 Q One o f t h e t h i n g s -- so you t a l k e d about
5 y o u r p r i m a r y p r o j e c t , i t appears, was, you know,
6 g o i n g t h r o u g h y o u r p a s t r e c o r d s t o show t h a t you a l l
7 had a h i s t o r y o f h e l p i n g t h e s e companies; i s t h a t
8 c o r r e c t ?
9 A
10 Q Was t h e r e any i n v e s t i g a t i o n , d i d you a l l
11 do any t a l k i n g t o o t h e r employees t o see, w e l l , d i d
12 you t a l k t o

H I
13

t o see who e l s e m i g h t
have spoken t o
15 A I b e l i e v e t h a t have headed
wasn't o u r

17 t h e t i m e , b u t I know -- i t was c o n t a c t w i t h
and t h a t
19 g o t t h e f i l e s and paperwork f r o m t h a t c o n t a c t .
2 0 Q So t h a t w o u l d be a s e p a r a t e s o r t o f e f f o r t
21 t o r e f u t e t h e a r t i c l e t h a t you a l l d i d some
22 i n v e s t i g a t i o n , and you d i d n ' t do i t b u t you b e l i e v e
2 3


24 A Yes.
2 5 Q I s t h a t f a i r t o say? Okay.
26

162
BY
2 Q And I j u s t need t o f i n i s h . I had k i n d o f
3 s t a r t e d f o l l o w i n g up on one t h i n g you s a i d and went
4 on t o a n o t h e r
5 What I o r i g i n a l l y wanted t o f o l l o w up on
6 was you s a i d l e a r n i n g t h e i n f o r m a t i o n about
7 c o n t a c t s o v e r t h e y e a r p u t o t h e r t h i n g s --
8 made o t h e r t h i n g s make
9 A
10 Q And one o f t h o s e was t h e S e n a t o r ' s
11 s t a t e m e n t about -- and I assume y o u ' r e r e f e r r i n g t o
12 y o u r e a r l i e r t e s t i m o n y when t h e S e n a t o r s a i d how
13 c o u l d you l e t him come - - o r w h a t e v e r he s a i d a t
14 t h a t l u n c h e o n ; r i g h t ?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And e x p l a i n how t h a t p u t s t h a t i n t o
17 c o n t e x t f o r us o r what you were t h i n k i n g a t t h a t
18 t i m e about how t h a t p u t t h a t i n t o c o n t e x t .
19 A I guess i t would, f o r me, make i t seem as
2 0 t h o u g h t h a t wasn't a one-time d e a l ,
21 had c e r t a i n l y been r e a c h i n g o u t t o o u r
22 o f f i c e , and t h a t t h e l u n c h was j u s t one s i t u a t i o n
2 3 o f , a c c o r d i n g t o The New York Times, many where he
24 had reached o u t t o us t h r o u g h
2 5 That t o me p u t t h a t more i n t o p e r s p e c t i v e
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1 and made k i n d o f some o f t h e a l l e g a t i o n s i n h e r e
2 maybe a l i t t l e b i t more s u b s t a n t i v e t o me.
3 Q And so when you say i t h e l p s e x p l a i n i t o r
4 p u t i t i n t o c o n t e x t , a r e you t a l k i n g a b o u t
5 a c t i o n s a l o n e o r what t h e S e n a t o r was t h i n k i n g a t
6 t h e t i m e ?
A No, a c t i o n s a r e what was p u t i n t o
8 p e r s p e c t i v e f o r me.

Thank you.
10 I had f o l l o w - u p and l o s t i t .
11 Maybe i t w i l l come back. S o r r y .
BY
13 Q Oh. Were you aware o r d i d anyone t e l l
w h e t h e r be


15 t h a t had, i n f a c t , c a l l e d them a b o u t t h e
16 a r t i c l e t h a t was coming o u t , do you know?
17 A I t h i n k t h a t maybe spoke w i t h
18 because I remember l e t t i n g us know gave
19 l i k e an o n - t h e - r e c o r d s t a t e m e n t o r s o m e t h i n g t o t h a t
20 e f f e c t , t h a t had commented on t h i s s t o r y .
21 Q So you were aware had, i n f a c t ,
22 commented on t h e s t o r y ?
23 A Yes, b e f o r e t h e s t o r y came o u t , I knew
24 t h a t . I d i d n ' t -- I d o n ' t t h i n k we knew t h a t a t
25 t h i s t i m e .
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1 Q Okay. And who t o l d you t h a t you a l l
c o n t a c t
A I t h i n k i t was
4 Q And so was t h e r e some e f f o r t t o you
5 know what, we have t o c a l l

6 came back and s a i d no, you c a n ' t c a l l him?
7 A I t h i n k i t was j u s t a m a t t e r o f we c a n ' t
8 ask t h e s e q u e s t i o n s , k i n d o f c o n v e r s a t i o n .
9 And we were k i n d o f t r y i n g t o p u t t o g e t h e r when j u s t
10 t h e t h r e e o f us were s i t t i n g t h e r e , k i n d o f t a l k i n g
11 a b o u t t h i s and t h e i r a l l e g a t i o n s , l i k e i t w o u l d be
12 r e a l l y h e l p f u l t o be a b l e t o t a l k t o
13 r i g h t now. And I t h i n k s a i d something t o t h e
14 e f f e c t o f w e l l , we c a n ' t
15 Q And a t t h a t t i m e e x p l a i n e d i t was
16 because had c o u n s e l o r j u s t d i d n ' t e x p l a i n
17 why?
18 A d i d n ' t e x p l a i n i t .
19 Q I have The New York Times a r t i c l e . D i d
2 0 you r e a d t h e a r t i c l e when i t came o u t ?
21 A I d i d .
22 Q I was g u e s s i n g you d i d .
2 3 ( L a u g h t e r . )
24 D i d you have a chance t o r e v i e w t h e
25 e x h i b i t s ?
26

165
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY

3 Q Okay. I'm n o t g o i n g t o ask you t o r e a d i t
4 h e r e t o d a y , b u t I do have i f we need t o r e f e r to'
5 i t , okay?
6 A
7 Q I'm j u s t g o i n g t o go ahead and mark i t and
8 p u t i t i n t o e v i d e n c e . You know what? I have
9 a n o t h e r q u e s t i o n t o o .
10 L e t ' s mark t h i s as j u s t so we have
11 i t .
12 ( E x h i b i t i d e n t i f i e d . )
BY
14 I'm g o i n g t o i n c l u d e a l l t h e e x h i b i t s ,
15 j u s t make i t one b i g massive e x h i b i t and hope we
d o n ' t have t o go t h r o u g h i t document by document.
17 You can h o l d o f f f o r a moment on r e v i e w i n g t h a t .
I want t o show you a document I j u s t
19 f o r g o t about. I had f o r g o t t e n a few t h i n g s a b o u t
2 0 t h e t r a n s c r i p t , so b e f o r e we move on t o t h e
21 p u b l i c a t i o n , I want t o make s u r e we g e t e v e r y t h i n g
22 we can about p r e p a r i n g f o r t h e p u b l i c a t i o n .
23 And so you m e n t i o n e d t h a t a f t e r t h e f i r s t
24 s i t - d o w n w i t h t h e r e p o r t e r s , you a l l began t o work,
25 and t h e r e was some meetings w i t h Senator E n s i g n .
26

166
1 There was a second m e e t i n g . And I want t o d i r e c t
2 y o u r a t t e n t i o n t o t h e second t r a n s c r i p t d a t e d
3 September 29, '09.
4 A
5 Q And i t ' s on page t h e f i r s t page o f t h e
6 document, and i t ' s something you t y p e d up. And
7 t h e r e i s a q u o t e t h e r e , i t ' s t h e second s t a t e m e n t
8



Gould you
9 r e a d t h a t f o r us on t h e r e c o r d . Do you see where
10 I'm t a l k i n g about?
11 Which?
12 Q I'm s o r r y . I t ' s on -- I t h i n k i t m i g h t be
13 17.
14 Bates stamped 13 85.
15 THE WITNESS: The second --
BY
17 Q I t ' s t h e second q u o t a t i o n , t h e s t a t e m e n t
f r o m
19 S t a r t s w i t h " t o ensure my
20 o f f i c e . "
2 1 THE WITNESS: "To ensure my o f f i c e f u l l y
22 c o m p l i e s w i t h a l l laws and e t h i c s r u l e s r e g a r d i n g
2 3 l o b b y i n g , I have f o r y e a r s f o l l o w e d t h e recommended
24 b e s t p r a c t i c e s o f a p p o i n t i n g a s e n i o r e t h i c s , o f f i c e r
2 5 i n my D.C. o f f i c e . I c o n f i d e n t we f u l l y c o m p l i e d
26

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1 w i t h t h e r e l e v a n t laws and r u l e s g o v e r n i n g c u r r e n t
2 and p a s t I have worked on t h e s e Nevada
3 i s s u e s and w i t h t h e s e Nevada companies f o r y e a r s ,
4 l o n g b e f o r e l e f t my o f f i c e . "
BY
6 Q Do you r e c a l l w o r k i n g on h a v i n g t h a t
7 s t a t e m e n t d r a f t e d ?
8 A No. I do n o t r e c a l l h e l p i n g w i t h t h a t
9
10 Q Okay. Were you aware o f any d i s c u s s i o n s
a b o u t what y o u r o f f i c e d i d t o f u l l y comply w i t h a l l
12 laws and e t h i c s r u l e s r e g a r d i n g l o b b y i n g ?
13 A I j u s t know f r o m my e x p e r i e n c e , you know,
14 i f t h e r e were an e t h i c s q u e s t i o n o r something, you
15 w o u l d r a i s e i t t o




16 a s s u m p t i o n t h a t he w o u l d c a l l E t h i c s and check i t
17 o u t and g e t back t o you.
18 Q But i n t h e c o n t e x t o f t h i s , s i n c e
19 a q u e s t i o n about t h e e t h i c s o f



20 a l l r e c a l l d i s c u s s i n g , you know, as a r e s u l t o f t h e
21 f a l l - o u t o f t h i s a r t i c l e coming o u t , t h e r e ' s a
22 q u e s t i o n about whether o r n o t t h e o f f i c e has
23 c o m p l i e d w i t h e t h i c s r u l e s . D i d you a l l do any
24 i n v e s t i g a t i n g , and I mean you as i n t h e
2 5 do you r e c a l l p e o p l e l o o k i n g t o see what had been
26

168
1 done t o ensure t h a t you a l l had, i n f a c t , c o m p l i e d
2 w i t h t h e r u l e s ?
3 A I b e l i e v e we l o o k e d
4 n o t e s on t h e m e e t i n g t h a t had w i t h Senate E t h i c s
5 Committee f o l l o w i n g d i r e c t i o n a f t e r
had blowup w i t h
7 Q Do you know i f anybody t a l k e d t o t h e
8 Senator t o see what was aware o f i n terms o f what
9 had been done t o comply w i t h e t h i c s r u l e s ?
10 A I b e l i e v e . I b e l i e v e he was l o o p e d i n on
11 t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h E t h i c s Committee. I can o n l y
12 assume t h a t . I wasn't p r i v y t o t h a t .
13 Q I t h i n k y o u ' r e a n s w e r i n g a d i f f e r e n t
14 q u e s t i o n . I want t o make s u r e we're g e t t i n g t h e
15 r i g h t answer. I'm a s k i n g do you know i f t h e S e n a t o r
16 was c o n s u l t e d about what y o u r o f f i c e d i d t o comply?
17 So i n o t h e r words, i n r e s p o n d i n g t o The New York
18 Times, d i d someone say, S e n a t o r , do you know what we
19 d i d t o comply w i t h e t h i c s r u l e s ? I t ' s supposed t o
2 0 be h i s s t a t e m e n t , so I assume someone s h o u l d have
21 t a l k e d t o him about i t .
22 A W e l l , he w o u l d have approved t h e
2 3 s t a t e m e n t . What I'm r e f e r r i n g t o i s t h e f a c t t h a t
24 i f i n t h i s s t a t e m e n t we're r e f e r r i n g t o t h a t we
25 c o m p l i e d w i t h e t h i c s and we're r e f e r r i n g t o New York
26

169
1 Times s t o r y , t h e n we w o u l d be r e f e r r i n g back t o
2 m e e t i n g w i t h t h e Senate E t h i c s
3 Committee a t d i r e c t i o n
4 c o n t a c t w i t h o u r o f f i c e .
5 what t h e p e r t i n e n t
6 w o u l d have been i n t h i s
7 Q So y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g ?
8 A T h a t ' s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f what t h i s i s .
9 Q But you know t h a t
10 That's j u s t y o u r
11 A No.
BY
13 Q You s a i d t h a t t h e
14 m e e t i n g , t h a t you t h o u g h t t h e S e n a t o r was
15 l o o p e d i n a b o u t t h a t . Do you know why -- I mean,
16 why d i d you t h i n k t h a t ?
17 A I w o u l d hope and I w o u l d assume t h a t
18 w o u l d have f o l l o w e d t h r o u g h w i t h him on what
19 t h e a d v i c e was f r o m t h e E t h i c s Committee and what
2 0 o u r o f f i c e p r o c e d u r e was. I assume t h a t t h a t w o u l d
21 have t a k e n p l a c e .
22 O b v i o u s l y , i f h i s l e g i s l a t i v e s t a f f was
23 d i r e c t e d t o n o t d e a l w i t h c o n t a c t w i t h
24 I hope someone on t h e s e n i o r l e v e l -- I wasn't
2 5

p o i n t -- w o u l d have f o l l o w e d up
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1 w i t h S e n a t o r E n s i g n .
2 Q But you d o n ' t know i f anybody d i d ?
3 A I d o n ' t know. I b e l i e v e t h a t t h a t w o u l d
have been a t a s k


and
BY
7 A t any p o i n t w h i l e w o r k i n g t o r e s p o n d t o
8 t h i s a r t i c l e coming o u t , d i d t h e S e n a t o r say, w e l l ,
9 I d i d know t h a t t h a t had o c c u r r e d ? D i d he, i n f a c t ,
10 i n d i c a t e t h a t he had been aware?
11 A Not t o my r e c o l l e c t i o n . I d o n ' t remember
12 b e i n g a p a r t o f t h a t c o n v e r s a t i o n .
BY

14 Q L e t me t r y and r e c o n c i l e a c o u p l e o f
15 t h i n g s t h a t we've h e a r d . A g a i n , I'm n o t a s k i n g you
16 t o draw any c o n c l u s i o n s , and I'm t r y i n g t o see i f
17 d i s c u s s i o n s happened a t t h a t t i m e .
18 You t e s t i f i e d a l i t t l e b i t ago t h a t a t
among you and


2 0 i t was c l e a r t h a t i f
21 t h a t was c o u l d be i l l e g a l .
22 That was y o u r
2 3 A Yes.
24 Q And t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t The New York Times
2 5 p r e s e n t e d was s u g g e s t i n g t h a t . You s a i d you l o o k e d
26

171
1 a t t h a t , and t h a t p u t t h i n g s i n t o p e r s p e c t i v e ; i s
2 t h a t c o r r e c t ?
3 A
4 Q Okay. T h i s s t a t e m e n t s u g g e s t s t h a t t h e
5 o f f i c e has c o m p l i e d w i t h a l l e t h i c s r u l e s and laws;
6 c o r r e c t ?
7 A
8 Q Was t h e r e ever a d i s c u s s i o n about a
9 p o t e n t i a l c o n f l i c t between t h e i m p r e s s i o n you a l l
10 had about what

11 s t a t e m e n t t h a t you were p u t t i n g o u t on b e h a l f o f
12 t h e Senator?
13 A Not t h a t I was a p a r t o f , b u t t h e r e c o u l d
14 have -- I mean, t h e r e c e r t a i n l y were c o n v e r s a t i o n s




16 t h i s s t u f f as w e l l .
17 Q D i d you have any c o n c e r n about t h e
18 c o n f l i c t between those two t h i n g s ?
mean,
21 Q Okay. S p e c i f i c a l l y t o a c t i o n s r e l a t e d
2 2 t o The New York Times a r t i c l e and t h e a l l e g a t i o n s
2 3 t h e r e , d i d you have concerns t h a t
24 v i o l a t e d e i t h e r e t h i c s r u l e s o r laws?
2 5 A Yes, I d i d .
26

172
1 Q And d i d you have t h o s e concerns a t t h e
2 t i m e ?
3 A
4 Q Okay. And so d i d you r e v i e w t h i s
5 s t a t e m e n t a t t h e t i m e ?
6 A P r o b a b l y . I mean --
7 Q You were aware o f t h e s t a t e m e n t ; c o r r e c t ?
8 A
9 Q Okay. So do you r e c a l l h a v i n g a c o n c e r n
10 a t t h e t i m e t h a t y o u r o f what
11 d i d c o n f l i c t e d w i t h t h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t we,
12 meaning t h e o f f i c e , c o m p l i e d w i t h a l l e t h i c s r u l e s
13 and laws?
14 A I t was my u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t o u r o f f i c e
15 c o m p l i e d . What d i d on h i s own, I'm n o t
16 aware o f . But f r o m o u r o f f i c e s t a n d p o i n t , I b e l i e v e
17 t h a t o u r o f f i c e c o m p l i e d w i t h t h e e t h i c s r u l e s .
18 Q Okay. So was t h e r e any c o n v e r s a t i o n t h a t
19 you e i t h e r p a r t i c i p a t e d i n o r were aware o f , were
2 0 t o l d about, i n w h i c h i t was s a i d we can s e p a r a t e
21 o u r s e l v e s f r o m what d i d ?
22 A I wasn't a p a r t o f t h a t c o n v e r s a t i o n , i f
2 3 t h e r e was one.
24 Q Okay. And you w e r e n ' t y o u ' r e n o t
2 5 aware o f t h a t ?
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1 A No, t h a t w o u l d have been a s e n i o r s t a f f .
2 Q So you n e v e r h e a r d -- what you j u s t s a i d ,
3 what d i d on h i s own, i s n o t something you
4 h e a r d anybody e l s e say?
5 A No.
6 Q Okay. And d i d you e v e r hear, e i t h e r were
7 you i n a d i s c u s s i o n o r d i d you e v e r h e a r anybody
8. e l s e t e l l you about a d i s c u s s i o n , where anyone s a i d
9 a n y t h i n g t o t h e e f f e c t o f we have t o t h r o w
10 under t h e bus o r we've g o t t o --
13 And so was t h e r e e v e r a d i s c u s s i o n t h a t
14 you were aware o f as t o why a r e n ' t we d o i n g t h a t ?
15 A I'm -- c e r t a i n l y , I would t h i n k t h a t
16 S e n a t o r -- I mean, I guess i t was S e n a t o r Ensign's
17 p o s i t i o n t h a t he wasn't g o i n g t o j u s t t h r o w
t h e
W e l l , he c e r t a i n l y has s a i d p u b l i c l y i f
22 b r o k e any. laws, t h a t ' s p r o b l e m ;
23 c o r r e c t ?
24 A R i g h t , r i g h t .
2 5 Q And so has t h e r e e v e r been a d i s c u s s i o n


174
1 t h a t o f about why n o t say t h a t a b o u t
as
3 A Not w i t h S e n a t o r E n s i g n . I mean, I
4 c e r t a i n l y have s a i d t h a t t o o r t o
5 c e r t a i n l y o u t o f f r u s t r a t i o n . But I w i s h t h a t we
6 c o u l d do
7 Q What i s -- what i s t h e i r response?
8 A W e l l , t h e y agree. O b v i o u s l y , i f t h e s e a r e
9 t h i n g s we can r e f u t e , we w o u l d l o v e t o r e f u t e them
10 p u b l i c l y . But I'm n o t aware o f t h e r a t i o n a l e f o r
why we
12 Q A l l r i g h t . So have you h e a r d anybody
13 say -- g i v e any r e a s o n f o r why y o u ' r e n o t d o i n g
14 t h a t ?
15 A No.
BY
17 Q To f o l l o w up -- so you m e n t i o n e d t h a t you,
18 i n e x a m i n i n g t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e y gave you a l l and
19 s e e i n g what o c c u r r e d , you had some concerns t h a t
0



2 1 A Yes.
2 2 Q D i d t h e S e n a t o r make t h a t same s t a t e m e n t
2 3 t o you, t h a t , you know, c o n d u c t c o u l d have
24 v i o l a t e d t h e law?
2 5 A
26

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1 And t h e n you mentioned t h a t t h i s n o t i o n o f
2 t h r o w i n g him under t h e bus, w h i c h w e ' l l use t h a t
3 t e r m because we a l l know what i t means, t h a t you had
4 d i s c u s s e d i t and d i s c u s s e d i t w i t h and
5 and, you know, you a l l d i d n ' t go i n t h a t d i r e c t i o n .
6 Was t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g -- was t h a t
7 because S e n a t o r E n s i g n s a i d we're n o t g o i n g i n t h a t
8 d i r e c t i o n ? I s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g ?
9 A I know what -- I I know
10 t h a t t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n s I have a r e c e r t a i n l y o u t o f
11 f r u s t r a t i o n and, you know, b e i n g u p s e t a t
12 and p a s t i s s u e s , and j u s t b e i n g f r u s t r a t e d t h a t i f
13 t h i s i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t we can j u s t k i n d o f n i p i n
14 t h e b u t t , so t o speak, now. I w i s h t h a t we c o u l d .
15 I c e r t a i n l y u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e r e ' s a
16 p u b l i c image i s s u e w i t h Senator E n s i g n

18 a sudden when t i m e s g e t t o u g h , he t h r o w s

19 t h e bus. I can u n d e r s t a n d how t h a t c o u l d k i n d o f be
2 0 a p e r s o n a l i s s u e t h a t Senator E n s i g n may g r a p p l e
21 w i t h . And, you know, o b v i o u s l y as h i s
22

s o m e t h i n g
2 3 upon him.
24 But I w o u l d l o v e , i f we c o u l d , i n some
2 5 n o n l e g a l way g e t t h a t o u t t h e r e , I w o u l d l o v e t o do
26

176
1
2 Q This may be asked and answered, but I j u s t
3 want to make sure -- so Senator Ensign never t o l d
4 you d i r e c t l y that, you know, we can't go ahead and
5 j u s t blame i t a l l on But did you have the
6 impression that the Senator i s u n w i l l i n g to blame i t

8 A I j u s t -- I don't have that impression. I
9 j u s t f e e l as that's not the d i r e c t i o n that we're
.10 going, f o r whatever conversations were discussed
11 early on or whatever Senator Ensign's personal
12 l o y a l t i e s are to



13 though that's not something that we are doing.
Q I have j u s t one -- i t ' s a l i t t l e b i t o f f
15 topic, but I want to make sure we don't miss
16 anything. This w i l l be

September 26 e-mail
e n t i t l e d
18 look at that one.
19 (Exhibit i d e n t i f i e d . )
2 0 (Witness reviewed the document.)
BY
2 2 Q Why were you gathering these
2 3 do you know? Do you recall?
24 A I think i t was j u s t maybe wanting to
2 5 kind of be up to speed on what we had said i n the
26

177
past, since only kind of came on i n
2 Q And was t h i s done i n connection w i t h
3 g e t t i n g ready f o r t h i s a r t i c l e to be published, do
4 you know?
5 A I don't r e c a l l .
6 Q Okay. Thanks. We're going to move on to
7 The New York Times a r t i c l e . I'm not going to ask
8 you to i t , but I am going to ask you to think
9 back to a f t e r i t ' s published and you've gone through
10 i t . And we've answered, or rather we've discussed
11 some of the questions I had already, but one
12 question I did have i s , did the Senator ever d i r e c t
13 you or anyone -- or anyone i n the to
your knowledge, to challenge the v a l i d i t y of any of
15 the statements i n here?.
16 I understand that you a l l don't agree w i t h
17 the g i s t of the a r t i c l e , which i s that there's
18 connection. But d i d he say, w e l l , t h i s j u s t i s n ' t
19 true, t h i s i s not a true conversation, t h i s i s a
2 0 l i e ? Were there things that he had asked you to go
21 through and to challenge or refute?
22 A I don't r e c a l l . That would probably have
gone to
24 Q But do you r e c a l l any discussions where he
2 5 said, you know what, there was no such -- that
26

178
1 contact couldn't have occurred, I don't -- that
2 can't be true?
3 A I mean, I think that there are some things
4 that maybe we disagree with but wouldn't go as
5 as to p u b l i c l y correct.
6 Q Like what, f o r example?
A Well, comment there,
8 about how i f you -- something about you need to h i r e
10 Q D i f f e r e n t a r t i c l e , but I know the one you
11 mean.
12 A So there were two, the follow-up --
13 knowing that's not something that any of us
14 would expect f o r to say. So I think that
15 there -- things l i k e that that j u s t kind of come at
16 you out of the blue. But a public correction,
17 you've got to have a l o t of facts to withstand a
18 public correction.
19 Q And you couldn't correct quote?
2 0 A correct And with the
21 legal implications with Senator Ensign's counsel,
22 there were some things that we were j u s t not able to
23 p u b l i c l y correct, given --
24 Q What I'm r e f e r r i n g to are things that you
25 could correct. So things that deal w i t h e-mails
26

179
1 that have come from your o f f i c e or discussions
2 about conduct that originated i n your that
3 the Senator might have said, you know what, t h i s
4 didn't happen, I know i t didn't happen, or that
5 be
6 A I don't r e c a l l conversations l i k e that.
7 Anybody else on t h i s topic?
BY
9 Q You j u s t reminded me that The New York
10 Times a r t i c l e also had some e-mails, and -- whether
11 i t ' s the o r i g i n a l one or subsequent ones, between
and

discussed a
13 l i t t l e b i t at length the o f f i c e ' s reaction or at
14 least the reaction t o the evidence of
contact
16 Was there discussion of the evidence of
contacts with
18 A Yes. A l o t of us, we r e a l l y didn't know
19 what did, what role i n the state was. I t
2 0 was kind of described to some of us
22 casework.
2 3 Essentially, we would r e f e r to them as
24 kind of isolated themselves from the
25 rest of the l e g i s l a t i v e s t a f f . worked
26

180
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14

16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26

and directed
didn't have any kind of
d i r e c t l y with
d i r e c t l y with
the So
oversight over
So we r e a l l y weren't kind of sure what
connection I know that worked on Nevada
l e g i s l a t i v e issues.
I think the a r t i c l e when i t came out and
we saw how much of a r e l a t i o n s h i p had been b u i l t
between
I think that that was surprising f o r a l o t of
given we didn't r e a l l y know what was doing i n
the state.
Q Now, you said your opinion about what
have done was informed by your personal
feelings about You also j u s t t o l d us i n
a d i f f e r e n t context that the comment about t e l l i n g
one of the p o t e n t i a l c l i e n t s that they had to h i r e
i s not something you would have thought
would have said.
So were there s i m i l a r discussions about
whether was engaging i n problematic a c t i v i t y
f a c i l i t a t i n g and how that in?
A I think j u s t i n the context of t r y i n g to
out everything that New York Times gave

181
1 I don't remember had l e f t our
2 o f f i c e at t h i s point as well, so we have, you know,
5 there as a resource f o r questions. had
6 retained counsel at t h i s point.
7 So as f a r as. her involvement with
8 what we know i s what we know from New
9 York Times, from a press perspective.
10 Q Did anyone t e l l you that had
11 retained counsel?
12 A We learned i t from New York Times.
13 Q Okay. And so then l e t me go back to the
same
15 where the Senator was saying p u b l i c l y that
16 we complied w i t h a l l lobbying rules and relevant
17 laws.
18 And I asked you i f there was a c o n f l i c t
19 w i t h what you had seen evidence of doing,
2 0 and you were able to draw the d i s t i n c t i o n i n your
21 mind that i f that own, that's
22 not "we"; right?
2 3 A Yes.
Q about i f had been
2 5 v i o l a t i n g the ethics rules?
26

6 Okay. So your impression was that the
8 A Yes.
9 Q under might have been, what,
10 Is that an accurate description of what
11 you're thinking?
14 that they act independently i s a correct kind of
15 d i s t i n c t i o n to make, simply because
has no over
17 doing l e g i s l a t i v e l y , given the setup that
established.
19 Q But again I ask -- and I ask i t to see i f
2 0 t h i s f u r t h e r probing refreshes my r e c o l l e c t i o n .
21 But -- so again I ask, do you r e c a l l any
22 conversation, t a l k i n g with anybody, about having a
problem with that says we
24 complied with a l l relevant rules and laws, when a
2 5 p o r t i o n of the o f f i c e was apparently not complying
26

183
18 Okay. And so again to b r i n g i t back to
19 the r e a l relevant point of why we're discussing i t
2 0 here today, i s -- having thought through that j u s t
21 now and given us your perspective, i s i t your -- do
2 2 you have -- you don't have any r e c o l l e c t i o n of
2 3 anyone else discussing that or of your discussing
24 that at the time i n the context of that statement
2 5 that we complied with a l l relevant rules?
26

184
1 A I mean, there may have been a frank
2 conversation between I . Keep i n mind,
3 the only people you can vent with i n these type of
4 situations are the people that you're working with.
5 No one else can know about t h i s . Obviously -- but
6 never with Senator Ensign was I ever a part of
7 those.
8 I don't know conversations
or may have or what
10 may have discussed with Senator Ensign's lawyers, or
11 i f herself found a problem with i t . I -- those
12 aren't conversations that I would have had.

14 Q Just to follow up on t h i s l i n e of
15 questions, at any point while you a l l were preparing
16 f o r The New York Times a r t i c l e to come out, did you
17 learn that the Senator had, i n f a c t , tasked
with handling i n q u i r i e s from
A I wasn't aware of that.
2 0 Q So you never learn --no one ever t o l d you
21 that?
22 I don't know i f I learned that a f t e r or
2 3 before or i f i t ' s something I read i n a story. I've
24 never heard that from Senator Ensign's mouth.
2 5 Q I understand. I said from anyone. Did
26

185
1 anyone i n the o f f i c e say, you know what,
2 me that the Senator t o l d him to handle

3 anyone t e l l you that? Did you learn that at any
4 point?
5 A I r e a l l y don't remember i f I did. I know
6 there have been allegations that Senator Ensign
7 tasked -- t o l d

of i t .
8 that I
9 Q I don't mean allegations. I j u s t mean has
10 anyone -- did anyone t e l l you.
11 A No one has said that to me, no.
12 Q And you never learned that i n the course
13 of g e t t i n g ready f o r t h i s -- because
14


at some point. And
15 we know based on your e a r l i e r testimony that
16 to So d i d someone say,
17 gee, I understood was supposed to
18 deal w i t h i n q u i r i e s , because we know the
19 leg. s t a f f couldn't t a l k to
2 0 Did anyone say that you at a l l ?
21 A Not that I remember.
22 Q But I said that, that wasn't the
2 3 f i r s t time you've heard that statement, I guess?
24 A Right. I t ' s not the f i r s t time I've heard
2 that. I mean, there have been allegations i n the
26

186
1 press that, you know, John Ensign said to
2 take care of i t , handle i t . But I don't
3 know where that came or where that would have
4 been reported.


6 Q I n f a c t , i t ' s my understanding that The
7 New York Times reported that i t came
8 that right?
9 I t ' s i n the a r t i c l e .
BY
11 Q That's one person that said i t , obviously,
12 i s But I was wondering i f any other
13 s t a f f e r said w e l l , that was my understanding, you
14 know, that they ought to go -- go to
supposed to handle Did
16 anyone else say that to you?
17 A Well, I mean, there was the d i r e c t i v e from
19 from that they were supposed to give
2 0 them d i r e c t l y to I had mentioned that
21 e a r l i e r today, that they weren't supposed to
2 2 respond, weren't supposed to do anything, j u s t give
2 3 i t to That was a f t e r directed

2 5 Q And going back to t h i s notion of r e f u t i n g
26

187
1 things i n the a r t i c l e -- and again, you can't
2 control an outside person's quotes, I get that. But
3 said the Senator t o l d me to handle
4 i t . Did the Senator say, w e l l , we've got to go out
5 and correct that because I , i n f a c t , never t o l d
6 to handle that. Did he ever challenge that notion?
7 A I believe that may have been a
8 conversation Senator Ensign had with his lawyers.
Q He never t o l d you as a
10 A He did not t e l l me.
11 Q As a legal matter, I'm not asking you to
12 opine on t h a t .
13 A I t may have been a conversation he had

15 Q You were never t o l d as a
16 A No.
17 Or you were never aware that even
18 was t o l d , you know not true, and the
19 Senator never t o l d anyone, because i f someone said a
2 0 quote that the Senator didn't say, he could say
21 w e l l , I never t o l d anyone to handle anything. Is
22 that f a i r ?
2 3 A Not that I r e c a l l . I don't remember that
24 conversation taking place with me.
2 5 Fair enough.
26

2 Q Are you aware of anyone ever disputing
3 that statement from

anything that
4 has been quoted as saying publicly?
5 A Not that I'm aware of. I mean, we
6 haven't --we have not. p u b l i c l y refuted
the so --
8 But even -- I don't mean p u b l i c l y . I mean
9 are you aware of anybody j u s t p r i v a t e l y saying
10 l y i n g about anything that the press has
11 reported him saying, or saying the press has got i t
12 wrong, you know, one or the other?
13 A I have not had conversations with Senator
14 Ensign regarding Those are not
15 conversations that I have had w i t h him.
19 Q Okay.
2 0 A That i s our i n t e r p r e t a t i o n of i t .
21 Okay. So the answer i s yes, you are aware
22 of discussions --
2 3 A Yes.
24 Q -- i n the o f f i c e --
2 5 A Between s t a f f e r s , yes.
26

189
2 Q I j u s t wanted to make sense of your story,
3 because I have to say, there was a b i g old gaping
4 hole f o r me. But now i t works.
5 (Laughter.)

7 We're i n t o the homestretch here.
8 Other questions?
BY
10 Q Yes, one more piece of that story. I j u s t
11 don't r e c a l l from e a r l i e r today, were you aware of
why would allow the
to not respond to inquiries?
14 A I don't know what I
15 don't know i f i t was because i t was i n v i o l a t i o n of
16 the lobbying ban or i t was because didn't
17 I don't know what that was. I j u s t know
18 t o l d was not going to be helping
19 and followed up with ethics.
2 0 Q And are you -- so you are aware that
21 to that should not be aiding i n a
22 v i o l a t i o n --
23 A I'm aware there's a meeting that took
place between


2 5 ethics said. The doors were closed. I don't know
26

192
1 was said i n that meeting.
2 Q Okay. But you've now
3 notes, r i g h t , because you were the one tasked to go
4 f i n d them?
5 A I never saw
Okay. Thank you.
7 Anybody else on t h i s topic?
8 I'm going to move

10 Q Homestretch. So do you r e c a l l
11 appeared on Nightline i n November of 2009?
12 A I do.
13 Okay. T e l l us what you can r e c a l l about
14 that.
15 A I remember watching i t . I remember
16 big sit-down interview and a l l of t h e i r family
17 photos and t a l k i n g about how h o r r i b l e t h i s has
been f o r
19 Q And did you have any task w i t h regard to


21 dealing with t h i s interview?
2 2 A We watched i t .
2 3 Q And did you transcribe i t ?
24 A No. I don't think I did.
2 5 Q Do you know i f transcribed i t
26

193
1 maybe, then?
2 A I f i t ' s transcribed, then I transcribed
3 i t .
4
5 Q I thought you did, but I could a c t u a l l y be
6 wrong, because i t looks l i k e -- I'm going to show
7 you a document we'll c a l l I t ' s not Batesed.
8 a November 24, 2009 e-mail. I think you might
9 have lucked out on that
10 (Exhibit i d e n t i f i e d . )
11 (Witness reviewed the document.)

13 Q Could you j u s t describe t h i s e-mail chain?
14 A Like I said, the only time you're able to
15 t a l k with anyone kind of openly about t h i s are the
16 people you're working with. This was me and
17 venting, c e r t a i n l y not an e-mail that I -- i t was an
18 honest e-mail.
19 Q They're a l l c o n f i d e n t i a l here, don't
2 0
21 A I know. I'm not worried about that, but
22 i t ' s an honest e-mail, and i t hopefully shows you
2 3 guys that as we've gone through a l o t
24 through a l l of t h i s t h i s past year.
25 Q We've seen the. So i t looks as
26

194
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5
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i f you a l l s p l i t up the duties transcribing.
A Yeah, we s p l i t up the transcript on t h i s .
Were you doing that at the
direction, do you know?
A Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, we were
transcribing everything at t h i s point. I f i t wasn't
at his direction, i t was just for us to have on our
own.
I t ' s l i k e Thanksgiving Day or something.
Q Close to Thanksgiving.
I t ' s at the top of the

196

2 Q Do you know, j u s t w i t h regard to the
3 interview and the t r a n s c r i p t , did the Senator
4 discuss those -- or rather the interview with you
5 a l l ?
6 A I don't remember i f we watched i t w i t h him
7 or i f we j u s t gave him. the t r a n s c r i p t of i t .
8 Q Okay. I'm going to show you an e-mail,
9 and you're not copied on t h i s one, j u s t so you know,
10 so t h i s may be the f i r s t time you're seeing i t .
11 I t ' s Bates numbered 001364 to 1365. Take a look at
12 t h i s .
(Exhibit i d e n t i f i e d . )
14 (Witness reviewed the document.)
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.

17 Q Did you have any -- or rather actually, go
18 ahead and describe the document f o r me j u s t so I can
19 make sure you understand i t .
A I t was j u s t an e-mail and
21 Senator Ensign about a discrepancy he saw i n the
22 Nightline piece.
2 3 Q Do you r e c a l l discussing t h i s discrepancy,
24 which I understand to be between helping someone to
2 5 get a job and helping someone to lobby, do you
26

198
1 r e c a l l discussing that discrepancy w i t h anyone
2 around t h i s time?
3 A No. I wasn't a part of t h i s one.
4 Q Okay. And were you made aware that the
5 Senator was very concerned that t h i s mix-up was
6 occurring?
7 A I a c t u a l l y didn't know that, no.
8 And j u s t sort of thinking back over the
9 publication of The York Times, do you r e c a l l him
10 sort of making a d i s t i n c t i o n between helping someone
11 to get work and helping someone to lobby? Was that
12 something that he was focused on, do you r e c a l l
13 that?
14 A I don't remember having conversations w i t h
15 him about that d i s t i n c t i o n .
16 We'll go o f f the record,
17 please.
18 We're back on the record.
19 And

under oath,
2 0 I'd l i k e to remind you. My colleague has some
21 questions for you.

Q Just a couple of wrap-ups. Within the
24 l a s t couple of weeks there were s t o r i e s out about
2 5 the FECs.
26

A Yes.
Q And I j u s t want to ask, was there any
concern i n the o f f i c e about anything inaccurate
portrayed i n those stories?
A Surrounding the FEC ruling?
Q Surrounding anything that was reported i n
those s t o r i e s , anything that was i n t h e i r documents
or any other documents related to
A Not that's been brought to my a t t e n t i o n .
Q
10

r i g h t .
BY
12 We noted e a r l i e r that you had sent some
13 things from your personal e-mail account as you were
14 doing work. Do you have any documents r e l a t e d to
15 t h i s matter i n your personal e-mail account, do you
know?
17 A I believe that I've given everything that
18 I had through there. I mean, obviously, I can go
19 back through and look, but I believe that I've given
2 0 the documents that I have.
21 Q Okay. But you have done a search, then?
22 A Yeah, several.
23 Q Is there anything else that you'd l i k e to
24 add to your testimony that relates to t h i s matter
2 5 that we haven't discussed yet?


201
1 A Not at t h i s time.
2 Q Anybody else that we should t a l k to about
3 t h i s matter that hasn't come up that you're aware?
4 A I think you guys are t a l k i n g to everybody.
5 1 think you guys are good.
6 Q Well, I'd j u s t l i k e to remind you that
7 under Committee Rule 7, we can make available to you
8 i n our o f f i c e s a copy of the deposition for your
9 review, and you can inspect i t and make any changes,
10 i f there are factual errors. So j u s t l e t us know i f
11 you'd l i k e to do that.
12 And once again, I'd l i k e to remind you
13 that we request you to keep t h i s interview
14 and we are s t i l l receiving
15 documents, we may s t i l l be receiving documents, but
16 i t may be that we'll need to t a l k to you again, not
17 that l i k e l y , but possible, so I j u s t l i k e to l e t you
18 know i n advance that we may be t a l k i n g to you again.
19 A Okay.
2 0 Q Thank you very much f o r your time. Off
21 the record.
22 (Whereupon, at 2:11 p.m., the deposition
2 3 was concluded.)
24
25

1 I HEREBY CERTIFY that I have read this

2 transcript of my deposition and that this transcript

3 accurately states the testimony given by me, with

4 the changes or corrections, if any, as noted.

5
6

7 X
9
10

11 Subscribed and sworn to before me this day of

12 , 20
13
14
15

16 X

17 Notary Public
18
19
20

21 My commission expires:
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CONTENTS
WITNESS EXAMINATION
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8 EXHIBITS
9 EXHIBIT NUMBER IDENTIFIED
10 Exhibit 1 identified 8
11 Exhibit 2 identified 73
12 Exhibit 3 identified 78
13 Exhibit 4 identified 79
14 Exhibit 5 identified 93
15 Exhibit 6 identified 95
16 Exhibit 7 identified 99
17 Exhibit 8 identified 105
18 Exhibit 9 identified 115
19 Exhibit 10 identified 122
20 Exhibit 11 identified 123
21 Exhibit 12 identified 130
22 Exhibit 13 identified 131
23 Exhibit 14 identified 132
24 Exhibit 15 identified 134
25 Exhibit 16 identified 148
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7 Exhibit 18 identified 165
8 Exhibit 19 identified 176
9 Exhibit 20 identified 193
10 Exhibit 21 identified 197
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