READ THE FULL INTERVIEW BETWEEN THE MAGAZINE THE DIPLOMAT AND

FELIX ABT HERE:

Question 1: I think it would be fair to say you are highly skeptical of some of the claims
regarding human rights abuses in North Korea. Why do you think these claims are exaggerated
and in what way?

Answer: I suppose many of the stories that defectors present are true, even though they cannot be
verified. I only challenge claims that are obviously exaggerated or plain false. Let me illustrate
that with two examples: Park Yeon-mi, a prominent defector spoke a few weeks ago of an
ongoing holocaust in North Korea and said that plastic bottles in the Royal Canal reminded her
of floating bodies that appear in North Korean creeks every morning. I widely traveled the
country and didnt come across dead bodies. Sure, there may have been floating bodies in rivers
in the terrible crisis years of the nineties when 600.000 people starved to death according to an
estimate by the U.N. official who was then supervising foreign aid during the famine in the
country. But since then things have clearly changed for the better (no more mass starvation,
recovery of the economy etc.) which many activists do not recognize. Another defector and
doctor claims, for example, that all people born with defects are systematically killed. However,
I have met handicapped North Koreans and know foreign NGOs who work with handicapped
people in the country. And a few weeks ago North Korea even sent a team to the Paralympic
games in South Korea.

Question 2: As per our recent Twitter exchange, you don't believe some defector testimony. For
instance, you don't believe defector Park Yeon-mi when she says there are often
bodies in the country's rivers. Why don't you believe this?

Answer: See my answer under 1.

Question 3: Related to the previous question, would you acknowledge that you were not free to
travel in North Korea without restrictions? If so, is it not possible that you were kept away from
the worst abuses?

Answer: I could drive and walk alone in the capital and travel to the port city of Nampo day and
night, that is without minders. However, as every foreigner and every North Korean I needed a
permit to travel farther just as it was still the case when Vietnam or China started opening up.
But when I had a reason for traveling I got it quickly, that is it was rather a formality. Since my
business activities were not limited to the capital but stretched to the whole country, I could
regularly travel to remote provinces. Most Pyongyangites cant travel to remote provinces and I
even met senior officials who have never been to provinces I have visited or have not even left
the capital. Also, my visits were of a more technical nature and were therefore not orchestrated
like in the case of foreign visitors and resident diplomats. So I did see poverty-stricken areas,
infrastructure in shambles, broken bridges over rivers and I would certainly have seen dead
bodies if there were any.

Question 4: Do you accept the findings of the U.N. COI report that North Korea is the site of
crimes against humanity without any parallel in the contemporary world"? Why/why not?

Answer: The North Korean law stipulates a range of punishments that includes various types of
reeducation through labor and labor reform or forfeiture of property or monetary fines. Below is
an extract from the high school textbook on Socialist ethics and law
5 which illustrates it.


**********

quote

In our country, mentally ill persons, and persons under 14 years of age, even if they commit a
crime, are not considered as criminals, and cannot be punished under criminal law.

The types of punishment for criminal offenses in our country include the following: death
penalty, indefinite *life sentence* of reeducation through labor (), fixed period
of reeducation through labor (), reform through labor (something like
community service) (), loss of voting rights (), forfeiture of property
(), forfeiture of certificates or qualifications (), or suspension of
qualifications (). , death penalty, or forfeiture of life, is the most extreme
penalty under law, and is reserved for the most serious and dangerous crimes of treason against
the country or the Korean people, or the most brutal and atrocious forms of intentional murder.

and (indefinite and fixed period reeducation through labor
punishment) involve isolating the criminal from society in a correctional facility (),
forfeiture of physical freedom,
and performance of physical labor under strict discipline and supervision. This punishment is
given both for acts against the country or the Korean people, and to ordinary criminals.

(reform through labor) involves the criminal being sent to a specified location to
perform labor. During the time of punishment the basic rights of citizens are guaranteed.

(forfeiture of voting rights) is used as a supplementary punishment only for acts
against the country or against the Korean people, and begins when the labor reform or
reeducation period ends).

, , can be given as supplementary punishment beginning
the day after the labor punishments end, or can be given administratively for minor violations
involving use of faulty qualifications, traffic accidents, violations against public health or public
service projects,
violations against child services and so on

unquote
**********

Of course, Im not an expert and I cant judge how this works in practice and Im relying only on
the reports by former labor camp inmates, just as the U.N. COI does, who have extensively
described the brutal excesses that happen there. I also suppose the commissions estimates that
there are 80.000 120.000 inmates in labor camps or 0.3 0.5% of the total population are
correct. On the other hand, the repression has significantly decreased over the last 20 years and
the number of prisoners has halved in that period according to well-informed experts such as the
North Korea historian Andrei Lankov. However, I do not agree with the conclusions made by
many that ever more pressure and more isolation on a country already sanctioned to the bones
would lead to fewer human rights abuses. On the contrary, it would only cement the status quo or
make it even worse. Without having a presence in North Korea and without economic interaction
and interconnections there is no power to influence anything.

Question 5: Some of your critics accuse you of being an apologist for the regime. How do you
respond to this?

Answer: I can understand their reaction: if you read and hear only horrifying reports about a
country for decades, you expect nothing but shocking accounts of cruelty and subjection to come
out of it. A balanced view showing an altogether different picture is therefore too much of a
challenge and cannot be accepted by many readers. So, for trying to stick to facts and unbiased
observations they call me then a regime apologist. Others, informed people like the prominent
writer John Feffer call me a change agent instead. This is probably because I helped bring
responsible capitalism to North Korea. At the business school that I co-founded and run we not
only taught business executives strategy and business plan but also corporate social
responsibility (e.g. no child labor, safe working environment, protection of nature) or the respect
of contractual obligations. Most of the corporate executives have applied at least some of what
they have learned and reported encouraging results. Others became even pioneers: One of my
students, a bank director, introduced the first debit card and another one became CEO of the first
advertising company. Remember, advertising was hitherto banned as anti-socialist. As
president of the first foreign chamber of commerce I lobbied with decision makers for reforms
and a level playing field for all businesses and they were increasingly listening and sometimes
made changes in favour of enterprises. I sold modern equipment including safety gear to mines
which must have saved quite a lot of ordinary lives (the elites dont work in mines). And as the
CEO of the first foreign-invested pharmaceutical factory we were the first to achieve an
internationally acknowledged quality standard recognized by the WHO and, strange to many, we
shared our knowledge with our local competitors to help increase their quality standards as well.
Better and safer medicine must thus have saved a good number of ordinary patients lives (the
elites had access to more expensive imported brand name pharmaceuticals instead). And you
need to know that in the past decade the lack of good medicine must have killed most likely
many more people than the lack of food. So I just wonder how many North Korean lives were
saved by those who trash me for engaging with this country and demand to strangulate it even
more.

Question 6: You have said that "North Korea's "slaves" are addicted to mobile phones just like
the slaves in the West."

Answer: With this sarcastic comment on a photo of a group of North Koreans all typing on and
staring at their mobile phones, I just wanted to express that North Koreans are not the
automatons and slaves as portrayed by mainstream media for decades but tend to adopt similar
consumerist behavior patterns as elsewhere in the world.

Question: And that: "In a society as strongly Confucian as North Korea, people show respect to
the leaders and expect that they take care of their needs, which is often misunderstood by
Westerners living in, at least formally, more egalitarian societies." Are such statements
misunderstood, or do you believe that, respectively, Westerners are just as controlled as North
Koreans, and the North Korean leadership is taking care of, rather than oppressing, its
population in accordance with North Koreans' wishes?

Answer: Confucius once told his disciples that heaven bestows its mandate to a just ruler, the
Son of Heaven, supposed to govern well and fairly and that he may be overthrown by the people
if the ruler is unable and despotic. In other words, even in a Confucianist society inability and
abuse of power would not be accepted for ever. If no meaningful economic and social reforms
are carried out the people may withdraw the mandate of heaven. The rulers know that and they
seem to follow, albeit very slowly and cautiously, Vietnams
and Chinas examples.

Question 7: At the very least, would you accept North Koreans have minimal freedom of travel,
speech and religion, no democratic rights and little in the way of wealth compared to their
counterparts in the South? Who do you think is primarily responsible for this situation, the North
Korean leadership or the West including the U.S.?

Answer: North Korea is changing and laws and policies or at least their application is greatly
affected by it. More people are traveling despite travel bans, more speak up, more read foreign
books and watch foreign movies even though its still not allowed and a middle class of private
traders and manufacturers is emerging which constitute the most important agents of change in
North Koreas society. More about all this can be found in my book. Sanctions do not stop the
production of nuclear weapons that a government under foreign pressure needs for its survival,
but it blocks beneficial market forces since its getting increasingly difficult for the
manufacturing and trading entrepreneurs to find foreign buyers and suppliers, willing to do
business with them under such dissuasive circumstances.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/10/north-korea-defectors-and-their-skeptics/
P.S. To correct a possible misperception: Felix Abt did not go alone to remote provinces but with
at least a North Korean driver, his staff or business partners.