Ansbacher Cayman Report Appendix Volume 6

Record Number: 1999 /163 Cos
THE HIGH COURT

IN THE MATTER OF THE COMPANIES ACTS 1963 to 1990
AND IN THE MATTER OF PART II OF THE COMPANIES ACT 1990 AND SECTIONS 8 AND 17
AND IN THE MATTER OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED
(formerly GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED,
ANSBACHER LIMITED and CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AND TRUST COMPANY
LIMITED)
REPORT OF THE INSPECTORS

APPOINTED TO ENQUIRE INTO THE
AFFAIRS OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN)
LIMITED
Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002
VOLUME [6]: APPENDIX X V ( 4 3 ) TO X V ( 5 4 )

ISBN 0-7557-1355-9
© Government of Ireland 2002

Appendix XV (43) Mr Denis Foley
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Denis Foley.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Denis Foley dated 7 April 2000.
b) Statement and related appendices of Mr Denis Foley dated 7 April 2000.

Appendix XV (43) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. DENNIS FOLEY
UNDER OATH
ON FRIDAY, 7TH APRIL 2000
I hereby certify the
following to be a true and
accurate transcript of my
shorthand notes in the
above named interview.
Stenographer
PRESENT
The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MS. MACKEY BL
Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS
Interviewee: MR. DENNIS FOLEY
Represented by: MR. TOM 0'HALLORAN
UPPER ASHE STREET
TRALEE
CO. KERRY
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. D. FOLEY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MS. MACKEY
1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON FRIDAY
2 7TH APRIL 2000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Foley, we will start
5 our interview then. I am
6 Declan Costello and on my right is Ms. Mackey. As
7 you know we have been appointed by The High Court
8 as Inspectors.
10 I should explain, as I do to other people who come
11 to interview, that this is not a Court and it is not
12 a Tribunal. It is an interview.
13
14 If in the course of the interview I or Ms. Mackey
15 ask you a question on which you would like to take
16 legal advice, please tell me and we will stop
17 questioning and you can talk to Mr. O'Halloran.
18
19 Similarly, if your solicitor wishes us to stop
20 asking questions so that he can discuss the matter
21 with you, he can indicate to us the position and we
22 will stop asking the questions.
23 MR. FOLEY: Thank you Judge.
24
25
26
27
28
29
4
1 MR. DENNIS FOLEY WAS EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Foley, we got a
5 statement from you
6 yesterday and we got the appendices this morning and
7 because we have not had time to consider all these
8 documents, as we would like, it may be necessary for
9 us to call you back at a later date?
10 A. Yes.
11 2 Q. However, we will see how we can get on this morning?
12 A. Right, Sir.
13 3 Q. It may not be necessary for us to trouble you again.
14 However, I have to tell you that that is the
15 position?
16 A. Yes. Right, Sir.
17 4 Q. It did occur to me, Mr. Foley, considering the
18 documents, that it might be possible to shorten this
19 whole matter of our interview with you in this way:
20 Your statement indicates the state of knowledge
21 which you said you had about the funds you gave
22 to Mr. Traynor?
23 A. Yes, Sir.
24 5 Q. As I understand your statement your state of
25 knowledge has now changed considerably as a result
26 of documents that were made available to you?
27 A. At the Tribunal, that is right, Sir.
28 6 Q. I think I am correct in saying, and correct me if I
29 am wrong, that what caused a change in your,
5
1 knowledge were these bank statements that were given
2 to you showing that money that was in the name of
3 "Ansbacher" firstly, and then money that was in the
4 name of Hamilton Ross, which was deposited, is that
5 correct?
6 A. That is correct, Sir.
7 7 Q. Also it appears that there was a code given on the
8 right-hand side of the documents. I think I am
9 correct in saying Mr. Foley that it is quite clear
10 that you were one of the coded accounts that
11 "Ansbacher" had and then later Hamilton Ross had?
12 A. That was...(INTERJECTION).
13 8 Q. Do you accept that?
14 A. That was brought to my notice at the Tribunal,
15 Judge.
16 9 Q. Yes. Mr. Foley, would it not follow that this
17 company "Ansbacher", whom I am dealing with, changed
18 its name? It was originally Guinness Mahon Cayman
19 Trust?
20 A. Yes .
21 10 Q. That your money was part of the deposit that that
22 company had ever since 197 9 when you first gave the
23 money to Mr. Traynor?
24 A. Judge, can I explain about 197 9 if you do not mind?
25 11 Q. Of course?
26 A. In October 1979 when I went to Guinness & Mahon to
27 lodge the £50,000 I met Mr. Traynor. Mr. Keane
28 joined the company there in the discussions and
29 Mr. Traynor assured me that I was going into an

1 investment group, Klic Investments.
2 12 Q. What I am doing Mr. Foley?
3 A. Sorry, Sir.
4 13 Q. We will, of course, allow you to go into all of
5 that?
6 A. Sorry.
7 14 Q. If it is necessary?
8 A. Yes.
9 15 Q. I am just asking you now in the light of the
10 documents that you have now received?
11 A. That is right, Sir.
12 16 Q. Does it not look as if your money was on deposit in
13 the name of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, later
14 "Ansbacher", in Dublin and that you were one of the
15 coded accounts?
17 17 Q. It looks like that, does it not?
19 18 Q. I will come to in a moment what you believed to be
20 the position?
21 A. Yes.
22 19 Q. You did receive documents from time to time and the
23 top was cut off them?
24 A. Yes.
25 20 Q. We have had a look at these documents and it is
26 quite clear that these documents show that the money
27 that was shown to be yours, the capital, was earning
28 interest?
7
1 21 Q. Am I correct in saying that you did not return the
2 interest on any of the money?
3 A. No, Sir.
4 22 Q. To the Revenue Authorities?
5 A. No, Sir.
6 23 Q. Just a propos of that, did you have an accountant to
7 look after your tax affairs or did you handle them
8 yourself?
9 A. I had an accountant in Tralee looking after my tax
10 affairs in Tralee.
11 24 Q. Yes?
12 A. And then sometime in 1998 I made an appointment here
13 with an accountant in Dublin. I have been trying
14 since 1991 to close the account and I made an
15 appointment in 1998 here with an accountant
16 in Dublin and he insisted on getting statements.
17 I told him my position that I wanted to make a full
18 disclosure to the Revenue Commissioners.
19 25 Q. Just who was your accountant in Listowel?
20 A. In Tralee, my accountant...(INTERJECTION).
21 26 Q. In Tralee?
22 A. Loughran & Company.
23 27 Q. Loughran & Company?
24 A. Yes.
25 28 Q. Did you disclose to them that you had this money
26 that was earning interest and that you were not
27 returning it?
28 A. No, Sir.
29 29 Q. You did not return that?
8
1 A. No, Sir.
2 30 Q. When you came up in 1991 then to a Dublin accountant
3 what did...(INTERJECTION)?
4 A. No, in 1991 I came to Des Traynor.
5 31 Q. Des Traynor?
6 A. Yes, whith a view to closing the account.
7 32 Q. I see?
8 A. And he told me at that stage that I was in a ten
9 year cycle.
10 33 Q. Just give...(INTERJECTION).
11 A. Sorry.
12 34 Q. I want to clarify something: I was asking you about
13 your own affairs and they were looked after by?
14 A. Loughran & Company in Tralee.
15 35 Q. In Tralee?
16 A. Yes.
17 36 Q. Do they continue looking after your affairs?
18 A. They still do.
19 37 Q. They still do?
20 A. Yes.
21 38 Q. However, you had a talk with Mr. Traynor 1991 about
22 this fund?
23 A. To close the account.
24 39 Q. I will come to that in a moment?
25 A. Right, Sir.
26 MR. 0'HALLORAN: Judge, I am sorry to
27 interrupt.
28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes.
29 MR. 0'HALLORAN: Just in relation to
9
1 accountants the man
2 Kieran Ryan, to whom he refers, was an accountant
3 who he used in Dublin. He continues to use
4 Mr. Loughran.
6 MR. 0'HALLORAN: But he came in 19 98 to
7 Mr. Kieran Ryan to deal
8 with the tax implications.
9 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Of this.
10 MR. 0'HALLORAN: Of this.
11 40 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, I see. Mr. Ryan is
12 looking after these?
13 A. That is right.
14 41 Q. These particular?
16 42 Q. Since 1998?
18 43 Q. Very well. I will come in a moment Mr. Foley to
19 what you understood?
20 A. Yes .
21 44 Q. However, from all you have learnt since, and all
22 that has been in the public domain since, about the
23 way these monies that were given to Mr. Trainer were
24 dealt with, you, I think, have become aware of the
25 system in other cases that Mr. Traynor operated,
26 namely, the establishment of trusts in Cayman?
27 A. Yes .
28 45 Q. You are aware of that?

1 4 6 Q. Are you aware too Mr. Foley that it would appear
2 that the person who had the money, call him the
3 Irish client, did not even sign the Trust Deed and
4 that somebody was appointed as Settlor in the
5 Cayman, either a representative of Mr. Furze of the
6 Cayman company or an accountant. Do you remember
7 noticing this in the papers and the account of the
8 way the funds were used by Mr. Traynor?
9 A. I don't recollect it but if you say it is correct.
10 47 Q. Yes?
11 A. I accept it, Sir.
12 48 Q. And that the monies were then transferred to the
13 trust company, which was Ansbacher or Guinness Mahon
14 Cayman Trust, and that the practice then was to
15 establish a company and Ansbacher took the shares of
16 the company and owned the company in Cayman, and the
17 holding company then either got funds or was loaned
18 funds from the trustees. Do you recollect reading
19 this in the papers?
20 A. Not really, Sir.
21 49 Q. Not really?
22 A. No.
23 50 Q. Am I correct in saying that you did not know
24 anything that would indicate that your funds were
25 treated in this way?
26 A. No, Sir.
27 51 Q. You have been in touch with the Ansbacher
28 authorities, have you not?
29 A. Yes.
11
1 52 Q. With Mr. Benjamin?
2 A. Yes, I wrote a letter to Mr. Benjamin sometime after
3 the Tribunal and the correspondence was returned.
4 53 Q. What I would like you to do Mr. Foley, you or your
5 solicitor, is to write again to Mr. Benjamin to ask
6 him for all the records?
7 A. Yes.
8 54 Q. Which he might have?
9 A. Yes.
10 55 Q. Relating to your arrangements with "Ansbacher"?
11 A. Yes.
12 56 Q. And particularly any arrangements, any
13 correspondance, that he might have had with
14 Mr. Traynor?
15 A. Yes.
16 57 Q. And also whether any trust was established in
17 relation to the funds that you had given to
18 Mr. Traynor?
19 A. Certainly, Sir.
20 58 Q. You will do that?
21 A. Certainly, Sir.
22 59 Q. Very well. Perhaps, we could just briefly go
23 through then what occurred. You had a conversation
24 with Mr. Traynor in 1975 and then in 1979, in
25 October 1979, you had a further arrangement with
26 him, as a result of which you gave him £50,000?
28 60 Q. You were going to tell me what he told you was going
29 to happen or what did Mr. Traynor indicate to you
12
1 what would be done with the £50,000?
2 A. That I was going into an investment group known as
3 Klic Investments.
4 61 Q. Yes. Did he tell you where it was established?
5 A. No, Sir, no.
6 62 Q. You had no idea that your money was going into the
7 Cayman company?
8 A. No, Sir. As I say I was dealing with
9 Guinness & Mahon at that time. I took it for
10 granted it was through Guinness & Mahon.
11 63 Q. You got those statements, which have been given to
12 us in appendix two. Did they come to you through
13 the post?
14 A. They did, yes, Sir.
15 64 Q. Were they as a result of asking for them?
17 65 Q. Who did you ask, Mr. Foley?
18 A. Des Traynor, Sir.
19 66 Q. Just so that we understand actually what the
20 position is, these are statements which you got and
21 they are dated from 1981?
22 A. Yes.
23 67 Q. Had you any other statements from Mr. Traynor during
24 this period which you may have lost or destroyed?
25 A. No, Sir.
26 68 Q. Are these the only ones you got?
28 69 Q. Where did you keep these statements?
29 A. I kept them in my home filing cabinet.
13
1 7 0 Q. At home?
2 A. Yes, Sir.
3 71 Q. Yes. There was written on this the words:
4 "In this name Klic Investments

Limited."
5
6 Who wrote that Mr. Foley?
7 A. I did, Sir.
8 72 Q. Why did you write those?
9 A. I will tell you. I got a heart attack in 1987.
10 73 Q. Yes?
11 A. A serious heart attack.
12 74 Q. Yes?
13 A. And sometime after that I was told by
14 Professor Brian Keogh to get my affairs in order.
15 So, I wrote on that. I am not sure when I wrote it
16 but the reason was that if anybody got these
17 documents after me, if anything had happened to me,
18 they would have the information on it.
19 75 Q. Yes. Mr. Foley, Ms. Cummins has drawn my attention
20 to an important fact, that I forgot to ask her to
21 swear you in.
22 A. Sorry.
23 76 Q. Your evidence should be given under oath?
24 A. Sorry.
25 77 Q. What I propose to do now is to ask Ms. Cummins to
26 swear you and then if you would confirm then that
27 the evidence you have given us heretofore was
28 correct?
29 A. Sure.
30
14
2 MR. DENNIS FOLEY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS AGAIN
3 EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
5 78 Q. Perhaps, formally then Mr. Foley you would confirm,
6 now under oath, that the evidence you have
7 heretofore given was correct?
8 A. I confirm that the evidence I have given.
9 79 Q. Was correct?
10 A. Was correct.
11 80 Q. Those statements that you have exhibited in appendix
12 two (Exhibit 1) are they not the sort of statements
13 that you would obtain from a bank? Do they not look
14 like it?
15 A. No. They would in actual fact, yes, but the only
16 thing is that there was nothing on top. The top was
17 taken off.
18 81 Q. Was taken off?
19 A. Yes.
20 82 Q. Yes. However, what I am asking you to comment on is
21 that it appears to be the sort of statement that you
22 obtain from a bank but with the top cut off?
24 83 Q. For example it shows the balance there?
25 A. Yes.
26 84 Q. It shows the interest that was earned on the
27 balance, it shows the credits and the debits?
29 85 Q. Did it not occur to you that this would seem to
15
1 indicate that your money was on deposit in a bank
2 somewhere?
3 A. I in actual fact phoned Des Traynor when I got it.
4 I wanted to know the reason why the tops were taken
5 off.
6 86 Q. Yes?
7 A. And he said that was for security reasons when they
8 were posting them out.
9 87 Q. Yes. However, did it not occur to you that this
10 appeared that the money was on deposit in a bank?
12 88 Q. Yes. You then later discovered -- you were in touch
13 with Mr. Keane and according to your statement
14 (Exhibit 1) you were told, you note here, that the
15 position on the 3rd March 1988 was that there was
16 £82,688. This was per Martin Keane, is that
17 correct?
19 89 Q. Is that your writing or somebody else's?
20 A. That is my writing, Sir.
21 90 Q. Yes. Who then wrote "Klic stg£72,893"?
22 A. That was the note -- I will just get that out now.
23 91 Q. Yes. If you look at -- it is appendix three?
24 A. That was a note — "Klic stg£72,893" was a note I
25 got off Des Traynor again.
26 92 Q. However, is that your writing?
27 A. No, that is not my writing there.
28 93 Q. Who wrote that?
29 A. I take it that was his writing.

1 94 Q. His writing?
2 A. Yes.
3 95 Q. However, then...(INTERJECTION)?
4 A. My writing is under that again, "Guinness & Mahon".
5 96 Q. This was a note you had?
6 A. Yes.
7 97 Q. Then you added these to it later on?
8 A. That is right.
9 98 Q. Is that it?
11 99 Q. This was a note?
13 100 Q. Yes. I notice from your statement (Exhibit 1) that
14 you opened an account in 1986?
16 101 Q. It was this "resident call deposit account"?
18 102 Q. That was a straightforward account?
19 A. Straightforward, Sir.
20 103 Q. In Guinness & Mahon?
22 104 Q. You got seriously ill then?
24 105 Q. You put it into the joint names of your sister -- of
25 your daughter and yourself?
26 A. I wrote to Guinness & Mahon I think on the
27 25th May 1988.
28 106 Q. Yes?
29 A. Asking them to put it into my daughter's name even
17
1 thought she didn't know it at the time.
2 107 Q. Yes?
3 A. But I was advised to get my affairs in order.
4 108 Q. This then was taken out of this account and given to
5 Mr. Foley to add to the previous funds you had given
6 him?
7 A. Mr?
8 109 Q. Sorry, Mr. Traynor?
9 A. Mr. Traynor.
10 110 Q. To add to the previous funds you had given him?
11 A. Yes. Mr. Traynor phoned me sometime in 1990 and he
12 said that that account was a waste of time. There
13 was no interest in it and he transferred it into my
14 investment account.
15 111 Q. Yes?
16 A. And I agreed.
17 112 Q. You agreed?
18 A. Yes.
19 113 Q. That joined the funds that you had already given
20 him?
22 114 Q. Apart from that Mr. Foley did you add any other
23 funds?
24 A. No, Sir.
25 115 Q. To Mr. Traynor?
26 A. No, Sir.
27 116 Q. Yes. We knew Mr. Foley that you withdrew funds?
28 A. I did, yes, Sir.
29 117 Q. We know that you withdrew £30,000 I think?
18
1 A. £20,000, £10,000 and £50,000.
2 118 Q. And £10,000?
3 A. Yes.
4 119 Q. In 1989, £20,000?
5 A. 1989 and 1990.
6 120 Q. In 1993, £10,000?
7 A. That is right, yes, Sir.
8 121 Q. Then you withdrew -- you got £50,000 from
9 Mr. Collery, is that not right?
10 A. In 1995.
11 122 Q. In 1995?
12 A. Yes.
13 123 Q. Yes. Could you assist me Mr. Foley in explaining
14 why you came to the conclusion, in writing your
15 letter as you did to Cayman, that the amount of
16 money that was then in your fund was, I think,
17 stg£140, 000, is that right?
18 A. That was the figure I got from the Tribunal, Sir.
19 124 Q. Yes?
20 A. Approximate figure.
21 125 Q. Yes. How had it reached that figure? Have you any
22 idea?
23 A. No, Sir, no. The figure was given to me at the
24 Tribunal.
25 126 Q. However, after...(INTERJECTION)?
26 A. It is interest, I believe, accumulating.
27 127 Q. Interest?
28 A. Yes.
29 128 Q. After... (INTERJECTION)
19
1 MR. 0'HALLORAN: I think it might have been
2 Mr. Collery's.
3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry?
4 MR. 0'HALLORAN: I think it might have come
5 from documentation from
6 Mr. Collery.
8 MR. 0'HALLORAN: Yes.
9 129 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Collery gave the
10 Tribunal documentation.
11 Have you given us all the documentation that the
12 Tribunal gave you Mr. Foley, that they might have
13 got from Mr. Collery or otherwise?
14 A. I will ask my solicitor.
15 130 Q. Yes. Do you know?
16 MR. 0'HALLORAN: No. We got various
17 folders. Now, this isn't
18 all of it but there may be, say, memorandum of
19 statements from Mr. Collery, the statement of
20 Sandra Kells and other exhibits that wouldn't --
21 they would not all have been produced at the public
22 hearing.
24 MR. 0'HALLORAN: But certainly they are
25 here if you wish to see
26 them.
27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I do not know Mr.
28 0'Halloran if we should —
29 I do not want to express any opinion on it as of
20
1 now. As of now I do not think we need all the
2 documents that were given to Mr. Foley.
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: By the Tribunal.
6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We do not need all the
7 documents because some of
8 them may or may not be confidential. I do not want
9 to express any view on it. What I would be very
10 anxious however is that any documents relating to
11 his own affairs which he may have obtained, which
12 the Tribunal may have obtained from Mr. Collery,
13 relating to his own affairs, be made available to
14 us.
15 MR. 0'HALLORAN: I think I would say that
16 they were produced to him
17 in evidence and they would be part of the exhibits
18 that I handed over this morning.
19 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I see.
20 MR. 0'HALLORAN: They are the exhibits that
21 were referred to in the
22 evidence.
23 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: In the evidence, yes.
24 MR. 0'HALLORAN: At the Tribunal.
25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, yes.
26 MR. 0'HALLORAN: I think my instructions
27 from Mr. Foley are to
28 cooperate with you in every respect.
29 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, yes.
21
1 MR. 0'HALLORAN: And certainly I have no
2 objection. You can take
3 them to look at them and if you want to give them
4 back to me or whatever.
5 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you. We will
6 consider that.
8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You see...(INTERJECTION).
9 MR. 0'HALLORAN: In fact I think I have
10 them all except the folder
11 I did not bring with me, which was in relation to
12 the Central Hotel in Ballybunnion.
14 MR. 0'HALLORAN: There was another folder.
16 MR. 0'HALLORAN: I think that folder and
17 the folder relating to
18 The Central Hotel in Ballybunnion would probably
19 approximate to all the documents that the Tribunal
20 have given us.
21 131 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I see. Very well. Thank
22 you Mr. 0'Halloran. After
23 Mr. Traynor's death you must have been concerned,
24 Mr. Foley?
25 A. I was certainly, Sir. I was very concerned.
26 132 Q. You contacted Mr. Collery?
27 A. I eventually got Mr. Collery.
28 133 Q. Did he not tell you how much money you had then?
29 A. No, Sir.
1 134 Q. Did you ask him?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 135 Q. Is that not strange?
4 A. What I ... (INTERJECTION) .
5 136 Q. Very strange?
6 A. I would accept that but what I was anxious at that
7 time was to get out £50,000.
8 137 Q. Had you any particular reason for wanting £50,000
9 then?
10 A. Well, first of all I was holding -- it was my
11 intention to hold that £50,000 and pay it on account
12 to the Revenue Commissioners and furthermore that
13 £50,000 plus the £30,000 I had taken
14 out...(INTERJECTION).
15 138 Q. Was what?
16 A. I had £30,000 taken out previously and that £50,000
17 was £80,000.
18 139 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
19 A. And that in actual fact was just over my total
20 investment.
21 140 Q. Is that what you were doing then? You thought you
22 were getting back your total investment, did you?
23 A. Well, I was concerned about the money at the time
24 and as I say I -- when I phoned Mr. Collery I told
25 him I wanted to get £50,000. He told me, "This is
26 a large sum of money," and he indicated to me at
27 that time I think that it was a Mr. John Furze
28 dealing with it and I said, "I never knew Mr. Furze,
29 heard or dealt with Mr. Furze".

1 141 Q. I am just wondering did he tell you that the money
2 was in two accounts?
3 A. No. No, Sir.
4 142 Q. You know now that your money was in two accounts?
5 A. I know now from the Tribunal it was in two accounts,
6 Sir.
7 143 Q. Yes. It does appear that there was one account
8 "A/A49", is that not right?
9 A. Yes, Sir.
10 144 Q. The other account was "A/A40"?
11 A. Yes Sir.
12 145 Q. Can you explain how the money...(INTERJECTION)?
13 A. I understand...(INTERJECTION).
14 146 Q. Was in two accounts?
15 A. I understand that the second account was made up of
16 the £24,000, which was transferred from the resident
17 call account.
18 147 Q. Yes?
19 A. And that first number there related to the original
20 investment of £50,000.
21 148 Q. The "A/A49", you think, might have been the resident
22 account because it was in 1993, it was £28,000?
24 149 Q. You think that is the funds that you transferred
25 from your account?
26 A. That is what I assume, Sir, yes.
27 150 Q. Yes. The other money then was the original money
28 that you put in?
24
1 151 Q. Yes. If that is so the original money, the original
2 fund, in 1996 had risen to £91,000?
3 A. Yes.
4 152 Q. Even though you had made these, taken out these,
5 funds that we have talked about?
7 153 Q. Can you explain how that is so?
8 A. I understand that was interest.
9 154 Q. Yes?
10 A. I infer that that was interest.
11 155 Q. You think it was interest?
12 A. Yes, Sir.
13 156 Q. Have you asked Mr. Collery whether he has any other
14 records relating to the deposit, the account
15 "A/A40", which would have been in IIB and then
16 before that in Guinness & Mahon Ireland? Has he any
17 statements in relation to that?
18 A. I didn't speak to him.
19 157 Q. Yes?
20 A. When I asked Mr. Collery for statements.
21 158 Q. Yes?
22 A. I eventually got the statements of May 1999.
23 159 Q. Are these the ones that we are referring to now or
24 are these other ones?
25 A. They are, Sir.
26 160 Q. Have a look there and see?
27 A. Yes.
28 MR. 0'HALLORAN: They would be the ones
29 headed "Ansbacher" towards
25
1 the back.
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Appendix five, is it?
4 A. Yes. Appendix is right.
5 161 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Appendix five are the
6 documents you got from
7 Mr. Collery in May?
9 162 Q. What were the documents you got from the Tribunal?
10 Were there any statements in relation to your
11 account obtained by the Tribunal?
12 A. I give...(INTERJECTION).
13 MR. 0'HALLORAN: No, no.
14 A. No, Sir, on the advice. We got them back from the
15 Tribunal as far as I can remember. I would like to
16 say, Sir, that everything I had I gave to the
17 Tribunal; I got back that documentation.
19 Well...(INTERJECTION).
20 MR. 0'HALLORAN: Judge, I think it might be
21 as well to clarify that.
22 Just my recollection is that I am not so sure that
23 he got anything from Collery at that time and that
24 those are the -- this is what he got from the
25 Tribunal but I would just like to clarify that.
26 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Would you clarify it
27 because it could be
28 important. I would like to know which was obtained
29 from Mr. Collery. Ms. Mackey draws my attention to
26
1 what is said in your statement about these. It is
2 at page 7 of your statement. It is the fifth line
3 from the top at page 7:
4 "Sometime later in May 1999 I received

by post at my home address..."
5
6 A. That is right.
7 163 Q.
"...a series of bank statements..."
8
10 164 Q.
"...bearing the names "Ansbacher" and
11 "Hamilton Ross"."
12
14 MR. 0'HALLORAN: Sorry, Judge. That is it.
15 165 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And the statements
16 concerned and they are
17 appendix five?
20 166 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well then. Then it
21 looks as if you did not
22 get any statements, bank statements, through the
23 Tribunal or is that not right?
24 MR. 0'HALLORAN: No, I think there were --
25 there was some more
26 detail.
27 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That came from the
28 Tribunal.
29 MR. 0'HALLORAN: There would have been some
27
1 -- I think some of the
2 internal workings came to us from the Tribunal.
3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Relating to this account?
5 167 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes. I think we have it
6 then. Yes, thank you.
7 Mr. Foley, I just want to turn now to another topic
8 and that is The Central Holding?
9 A. Central Tourist Holding, Sir.
10 168 Q. Central Tourist Holding Limited?
11 A. Yes.
12 169 Q. This company owned the hotel in Ballybunnion?
13 A. The Old Central Hotel in Ballybunnion.
14 170 Q. Yes. You were a Director of that company?
16 171 Q. Did you have any role in the running of the company?
17 A. I did, yes, Sir.
18 172 Q. You were the licensee of the company?
19 A. Yes. Well, there were four in 1972. Can I just go
20 back and relate?
21 173 Q. Yes?
22 A. In 1972 Mr. Billy Clifford came to me and said that
23 the Directors of The Brandon, who were John Byrne,
24 Tom Clifford and Billy Clifford, were interested in
25 purchasing The Old Central In Ballybunnion.
26 174 Q. Yes?
27 A. And they asked me would I be interested in coming
28 in. I asked them what it would cost me and they
29 said £5,000 approximately. Each of the Directors
28
1 would be putting that up. That was in 1972. So, I
2 became a Director following that -- that was a
3 loan taken out from Guinness & Mahon for
4 approximately £70,000.
5 175 Q. Yes?
6 A. I wasn't involved in negotiating that loan.
7 176 Q. Yes. Did you run the hotel or was there somebody
8 else running the hotel?
9 A. No, there was a manager.
10 177 Q. Right?
11 A. From 1976 onwards I became very much involved in it.
12 178 Q. In running the hotel?
13 A. In running it.
14 179 Q. Yes?
15 A. Like when I say I became very much involved I was in
16 over at the hotel most weekends. There was a
17 manager there.
18 180 Q. Were you a signatory, a bank signatory?
19 A. I was one of four.
20 181 Q. One of four?
21 A. Yes .
22 182 Q. Did you, in fact, then help to look after the
23 financial affairs of the enterprise or did somebody
24 else do that?
25 A. First of all Sir they asked me to become the
26 licence holder because the other two local
27 Directors, Billy Clifford and Tom Clifford, were
28 already licence holders for two other premises in
29 Tralee. So, I was getting the statements from
29
1 Guinness & Mahon on their own.
2 183 Q. Yes. Did you have a bank account as well?
3 A. Bank Of Ireland, Ballybunnion.
4 184 Q. The Bank Of Ireland in Ballybunnion?
5 A. Ballybunnion.
6 185 Q. Yes. The hotel was sold in 1986. Do you remember
7 what you got for the hotel?
8 A. I think the hotel and ballroom was sold, I think,
9 for £177,000 totally.
10 186 Q. Yes?
11 A. I am open to correction there.
12 187 Q. Yes?
13 A. But as far as I can recollect.
14 188 Q. Yes?
15 A. Just to be honest I think it was late 1986/1987
16 before the sale was finalised.
17 189 Q. Yes. Who were the solicitors who were
18 acting...(INTERJECTION)?
19 A. Grace & Company.
20 190 Q. Grace & Company?
21 A. Yes.
22 191 Q. Are they...(INTERJECTION)?
23 MR. 0'HALLORAN: No, they are no longer in
24 existence?
25 A. They are no longer in existence.
26 192 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Were they local
27 solicitors?
28 A. Local solicitors in Tralee.
29 MR. 0'HALLORAN: Downing & Grace was the
30
1 name.
2 193 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes. I just want to
3 ask you how it came about
4 that you signed this cheque of the 20th October 1987
5 for £42,580?
6 A. That is right, Sir. I was asked. That was in
7 October, yes.
8 194 Q. Yes?
9 A. As far as I can recollect I was asked by the
10 solicitor, Mr. Grace.
11 195 Q. Who?
12 A. Mr. Grace.
13 196 Q. Mr. Grace, yes?
14 A. And that was paid either to Haughey Boland or
15 Guinness & Mahon.
16 197 Q. Why was the cheque on an account opened by
17 Mr. Grace?
18 A. Sorry, sorry. When the sale was sold it was after
19 the summer season and he opened an account in the
20 Bank Of Ireland in Listowel.
21 198 Q. Why did he do that?
22 A. Because he put all the funds in there. I don't know
23 because it was easier for him I would say to
24 transaction business with Listowel.
25 199 Q. Why was that Mr. Foley?
26 A. I am not sure but maybe Ballybunnion, I am open to
27 correction here again, may have been closed at that
28 stage now.
29 200 Q. Yes?
31
1 A. It may or may not but I know the whole account was
2 transferred to Listowel.
3 MR. 0'HALLORAN: My recollection, Judge, is
4 that it was lodged in the
5 name of the company, not the solicitor's name, in
6 Ballybunnion.
7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes. That is what I
8 understood and I am sorry
9 if I gave the wrong impression.
11 201 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I am just wondering why
12 the cheque was drawn then,
13 the Bank Of Ireland in Listowel?
14 A. I understood the cheque was drawn to pay off the
15 creditors.
16 202 Q. Sorry?
17 A. I understood that cheque was paid to pay off
19 203 Q. Guinness & Mahon?
20 A. Yes.
21 204 Q. However, what I am asking you is why it was drawn,
22 do you know, in the Bank Of Ireland in Listowel
23 rather than in Ballybunnion?
24 A. Because the funds -- when the sale was closed he
25 lodged the proceeds of the sale into Listowel.
26 205 Q. I see?
27 A. Because at that stage we did owe money to the bank
28 in Ballybunnion.
29 206 Q. Yes. I think you know now that it was used to put
32
1 into an account entitled "The Amiens S/L No. 2 A/C".
2 You know that now?
3 A. That was brought to my notice at the Tribunal, Sir.
4 207 Q. You did not know anything about that?
5 A. No, Sir.
6 208 Q. The money was, in fact, paid into this account?
7 A. Yes, Sir. Could I point out at that stage Judge if
8 you allow me?
9 209 Q. Yes?
10 A. Late May/early June I got a serious heart attack in
11 1987 and I was out of action for a number of months.
12 210 Q. Yes?
13 A. And I had only just come back to -- around that
14 time. I would say maybe late August.
15 211 Q. Yes. Did you know whether or not the loan, that you
16 had obtained from Guinness & Mahon, the company
17 claimed, had been backed by a cash deposit or not?
18 A. No, Sir.
19 212 Q. You did not know about that?
20 A. No knowledge whatsoever, Sir.
21 213 Q. The documents show it was -- security was a
22 guarantee, a personal guarantee?
23 A. Personal guarantee by the four Directors and that
24 caused me a lot of problems. I blamed that for the
25 heart attack I got because I could see myself paying
26 substantial money.
27 214 Q. However, did you know that either your personal
28 guarantee or the loan that was due by the company to
29 Guinness & Mahon, was backed by a cash deposit?
33
1 A. No, Sir.
2 215 Q. You do not know?
3 A. No, Sir.
4 216 Q. I see. Mr. Foley, I have not very much more to ask.
5 However, we could stop now. We could break now for
6 a cup of coffee for ten minutes or so?
7 A. I would appreciate that.
8 217 Q. And we will come back?
9 A. Thank you very much.
10
11 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
12
13 218 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I just want to get
14 something clarified,
15 Mr. Foley. You had correspondence with Cayman?
16 A. Yes.
17 219 Q. And you wrote to Hamilton Ross and you have not yet
18 written to Ansbacher, is that the position?
19 A. That is.
20 MR. 0'HALLORAN: They are the only two
21 letters we have written
22 Judge.
23 220 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes. What I want to just
24 make clear is that we
25 require you now is to write to Ansbacher to obtain
26 their records?
27 A. Right, Sir.
28 221 Q. Going back to 1972?
29 A. Right, Sir.
34
1 222 Q. Because they are the people that originally would
2 have been dealing with your funds?
3 A. Yes.
4 223 Q. Very well. Mr. Foley, that is all I wish to ask.
5 However, Ms. Mackey has a few questions she wants to
6 ask you?
7 A. Yes.
8 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. DENNIS FOLEY BY
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
35
1 MR. DENNIS FOLEY WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY
2 MS. MACKEY
4 224 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Foley, this will not
5 really take a moment. It
6 is just to finish up on the affairs of Central
7 Tourist Holdings?
8 A. Yes.
9 225 Q. You told us before the break there that you are
10 aware now from information that you received at the
11 Moriarty Tribunal, from some documents that you saw
12 there, that the loan to Central Tourist Holdings was
13 secured on a deposit in Ansbacher, is that not
14 correct?
15 A. That is correct.
16 226 Q. You know that now?
17 A. That was brought to my notice at the Tribunal.
18 227 Q. At the Tribunal?
19 A. And I informed the Tribunal had I known that at the
20 time I probably wouldn't have had a serious heart
21 attack.
22 228 Q. Yes?
23 A. Because I was still getting statements right up to
24 the close of the sale showing substantial money due.
25 229 Q. That is right. I understand that?
26 A. Yes.
27 230 Q. Is it correct also to say that you were made aware
28 at the Tribunal that, in fact, the loan was cleared
29 by monies paid from Ansbacher?
36
2 231 Q. That is correct?
3 A. Yes. I understood that was paid off in 1985.
4 232 Q. 1985?
5 A. That is what I understood and I was still getting
6 statements right up to 1987.
7 233 Q. Is it the case that the cheque that you were telling
8 us about before the break?
9 A. Yes.
10 234 Q. Which was drawn on the account of the company in
11 Listowel, Bank Of Ireland?
13 235 Q. Signed by you?
14 A. Yes.
15 236 Q. That your understanding of that was that it was
16 going to make a settlement with Guinness & Mahon?
17 A. That is what I understood.
18 237 Q. In respect of this loan, is that what you are
19 saying?
20 A. I had -- yes, in respect of this loan because it
21 was showing £135,000 but I had made the case that we
22 had paid substantial interest over the years and
23 that we paid back more than double the £70,000.
24 238 Q. Yes?
25 A. And I felt we were entitled to a settlement.
26 239 Q. Just remind me of the date of when you wrote that
27 cheque again?
28 A. October, was it, 1987?
29 240 Q. October 1987?
37
1 A. I can just check that now. I am speaking from
2 memory.
3 241 Q. Yes. October 1987?
4 A. 20th October 1987.
5 242 Q. In fact, the loan had been cleared in 1985?
6 A. That is what I understood from the Tribunal.
7 243 Q. You had not received any notice of that?
8 A. No knowledge of it. I was still getting statements
9 showing in excess of £135,000 due.
10 244 Q. You were getting statements from Guinness & Mahon?
11 A. From Guinness & Mahon showing in excess of £135,000
12 due.
13 245 Q. Right up to 1987?
14 A. Right up to 1987, up to the close of the sale.
15 246 Q. Since your evidence to the Moriarty Tribunal
16 Mr. Foley have you learned any more about how that
17 loan was paid off?
18 A. No.
19 247 Q. Have you enquired from Mr. Collery about this
20 matter?
21 A. No, I haven't spoken to Mr. Collery.
22 248 Q. You have not spoken to Mr. Collery?
23 A. No, no.
24 249 Q. When was the last time you spoke to Mr. Collery?
25 A. 1998 as far as I can remember. 1998 I met him at
26 Dublin Airport.
27 250 Q. That is right. Was that prior to your learning
28 anything about the loan having been paid off?
29 A. Yes, prior to it, yes.
38
1 251 Q. Yes. The first that you knew about this loan being
2 paid off was when you were so informed by the
3 Moriarty Tribunal?
4 A. My recent visit to the Tribunal.
5 252 Q. Very well then. Those are the all the questions I
6 have for you, Mr. Foley?
7 A. Thank you very much. Thanks Ms. Mackey.
8 253 Q. Thank you.
9 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. DENNIS FOLEY BY MS. MACKEY
10
11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well Mr. Foley. Your
12 evidence will be
13 transcribed and we would ask you then to come up to
14 sign the transcript as soon as it is ready?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. 0'HALLORAN: Judge just so that — in
17 relation to the letter to
18 Ansbacher.
20 MR. 0'HALLORAN: There seemed to be a
21 certain amount of
22 confusion as to where we should write.
24 MR. 0'HALLORAN: That is why we wrote to
25 the people that we wrote
26 to there, Hamilton Ross. Could you tell me the
27 address that you would like me to address the
28 correspondence to?
39
1 MS. MACKEY: We can give it to you in
2 writing.
3 MR. 0'HALLORAN: I can get that.
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It is here in this. It is
5 here in the appendix, the
6 letter from "Ansbacher" to Hamilton Ross.
7 MR. 0'HALLORAN: In fact we were writing in
8 relation to funds. I
9 think the evidence was that it had been transferred
10 to Hamilton Ross.
11 MS. MACKEY: Yes.
12 MR. 0'HALLORAN: Yes, certainly we will do
13 that.
14 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You see, as you probably
15 know Mr. O'Halloran that
16 all the funds that would have been originally given
17 by Mr. Foley would have been under the control of
18 this. They would have been, apparently at any rate,
19 deposited with the company Guinness Mahon Cayman
20 Trust in Cayman.
21 MR. O'HALLORAN: Yes.
22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It is now known as
23 Ansbacher.
24 MR. O'HALLORAN: Yes.
25 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: What I would be anxious to
26 obtain is any documents
27 relating to the circumstances in which this
28 originally came about and whether or not a trust was
29 established and Ansbacher would be the people to
40
1 tell you that.
2 MR. 0'HALLORAN: Yes, certainly, yes.
3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well then that is all
4 for today. Thank you.
5 A. Thank you very much Judge. Thank you Ms. Mackey.
6 MR. 0'HALLORAN: Thank you.
8 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
41
ôUo^Vor
\7 VÂcoâcoO
Appendix XV (43) (1) (b)
B U U t "X
STATEMENT OF DENIS FOLEY T.D. T O THE

INSPECTORS APPOINTED BY ORDER OF THE HIGH
COURT TO ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED
Thomn J. O'Halloran
Solicitors
Upper Ash» Stmt
Tralse
County Karry
llfTROPWTTQN
1.1 make this unsworn statement In response to a request by the Inspectors

appointed by Order of the High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited (the
"Inspectors"). If the Inspectors have any queries arising out of this unsworn
statement both I and my Solicitor would be happytorespond to queries.
2.1 am a member of Dall Eireannfor the constituency of North Keny. I first stood as
a candidate for the Raima Fail party in that constituency in (he 1977. General
Election. I was unsuccessful in that election. I stood again in the General Election
in 1681 and was elected for the first time at that election. Apart from a period
between 1989 and 1992 when I was a member of Seanad Eireann, I have been a
member of Dali Eireann since the date of my election tn 1981 to the present time.
I am also a member of Kerry County Council having been elected to the Council
for thefirsttime In 1979.
3. tn 18591 joined Tralee U.D.C. as a Revenue Colector. Initially, I was Involved In

the collection of rents, in or about 1967 I was appointed Rate Collector for the
town of Tralee. I continued In this position until my election as a T.D. In 1981.
INVOLVEMENT WITH 9UINNEH * MAHON (IRELAND) LIMITED
AND/OR DE8M0WD T R A Y N O R
4. In 19651 was asked by one of the directors of the Mount Brandon HotBl In Tralee,
which was in the course of construction at the time, to assist in obtaining bands to
play In the Hotel's ballroom. I was also asked to give some assistance In
arranging publicity for the new ballroom. As part of my arrangement with the
Mount Brandon Hotel I would receive payment from both the ballroom and from
the bands themselves. I was also asked to book bands for the ballroom for the
Central Hotel in Ballybunlon. The Central and Mount Brandon ballrooms were
successful for a period and I succeeded in obtaining all the top bands In the
country during this period. I terminated my arrangement with the Mount Brandon
when I became a member of Dail Eireann In 19B1.1 was also a director of the
company which owned the Central Hotel, Central Tourist Holdings Limited
("CTH"). 1 also invested the sum of IRES,000 in this business. My Involvement In
CTH came to an end In 1987 when I contributed funds totalling IR£7,787.58
towards the discharge of creditors of that company.
5.1first met Desmond Traynor ("Mr. Traynor") at the time of my Involvement with the
Mount Brandon Hotel In the 1960's. Mr. Traynor used to visit the Hotel In his
capacity as an accountant with the firm of Haugtiey Boiand whom I befleve d d the
accounts for the Hotel. I can recall on one occasion discussing with Mr. Traynor
my Involvement with the Hotel and in particular my rale In booking bands for the
ballroom in the Hotel. I befleve that Mr. Traynor visited the Hotel once or twice a
year. Some time In the mld-1970's (I believe It was in 1975 or 1976 although i
cannot be certain) Mr. Traynor asked me about my financial position. He informed
me that through his bank. Guinness & Mahon in Dublin, he would be able to get
me a good return on any funds which I might have to invest Guinness & Mahon
was also' involved In the granting of loan facilities to CTH although I waa not
responsible far organising thesefecfliflee which were made available In 1972.
6. Some yean later, in October 1979,1 had the sum of IR£50,000 to invest This
sum Included the sum of approximately IR£30,000 which I had accumulated since
1966 from commission payments from bands booked by me for the Mount
Brandon Hotel and for the Central Hotel and also from payments made to me by
the Brandon Hotel for obtaining the bands. The sums paid to me were converted
to bank drafts fromtimeto time which Irenewed during the period. The balance of
IR£20,000 was made up of payments which I received by way of contribution
towards my election expenses for the general election of 1977. Of this IR£20,000,
approximately IR£14,000 was received from members of my own family with the
balance of IR£6,000 from other persona. These sums I also converted into bank
drafts which I believe I renewed from time to time since 1977.1 decided that I
would Invest the sum of IR£50,000 with Guinness & Mahon as I remembered my
conversation with Mr. Traynor back in 1975 or 1976 when he indicated that he
could get me a goodreturnon any funds which I Invested with the bank.
7. I met with Mr. Traynor on 5 October 1979 at the Bank's premises in Oame Street
In Dublin by prior arrangement. I Informed him that I had IR£50,000 to invest and
that I would be looking for the best rate of return he could get me. He Informed
/ me that he could get me a very good return hrough the Bank with a fund called
"KHc Investments*. I invested the sum with Guinness & Mahon and received two
Guinness & Mahon lodgment dockets for 1R£30,000 and IR£20,000 respectively.
Copies of these lodgment dockets are attached at Appendix 1 to this unsworn
statement. Martin Keane, another employee of Guinness & Mahon, was also
present at this meeting.
!Hj| 8. i believe that Mr. Traynor informed ma that I would be furnished with statements
f In respect of my investment on a periodic basis. However, i did not receive
statements and I made contact with Mr. Traynor about this. Following my request
Iff!! I was furnished with some statements in late 1882 or early 1883. Copies of the
statements which I received at this time are attached at Appendix 2 to this
unsworn statement These statements related to the period from 19 August 1981
to 20 September 1982. The statements did not contain any heading and I have a
recollection of contacting Mr. Traynor and asking him why this was so. He
Informed me that It was for 'security mason?, When I received the statements I
wrote in my own handwriting on one of the pages of the statements "£60,000
• lodged to Guinness + Mahon Oct f979". I also wrote on the same statement
"K/fc Investments Limited
Martin Keane
Guinness + Mahon Limited
£60,000".
I subsequently added the other words which now appear on thefirst page of the
statements. I believe I added these words some time prior to 1880.
9. Some time later I made further enquiries with Mr. Traynor concerning my
Investment and he gave me a slip of paper stating the following'.
•Kile - £72,893 Stg*.

Some time later In 1888 I was Informed by Martin Keane of Guinness & Mahon
that the total of my Investment was Stg£82,888.00.1 noted this in handwriting on
the slip of paper which Mr. Traynor had previously given me. A copy of the slip of
paper together with my handwritten addition Is attached at Appendix 3. It was at
ail times my belief that my investment was with Guinness & Mahon in a fund
known as KBc Investments. At no time was I informed by Mr. Traynor or by any
other person in Guinness & Mahon or otherwise that my funds were invested or
otherwise held by any other entity such as Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited
("Ansbacher"). As will appear later in this statement the first time I received any
statement whatsoever which Indicated a possibility that my funds may have been
invested or otherwise held in Ansbacher was In May 1898. m i
10.1 made two withdrawals from my investment by arrangement with Mr. Traynor.
Those two withdrawals were: IR£20,000 on 13 April 1989 and IR£10,000 on 18
June 1993.
The first withdrawal was made by way of a Guinness & Mahon bank draft which
Mr. Traynor informed me I could cash in the South Mad, Cork branch of Guinness
& Mahon. The second withdrawal was in cash. Both these withdrawals were made
by arrangement with Mr. Traynor.
11. Foftowing my election to DaH Elreann In 1981 my contacts with Mr. Traynor were
rare. I telephoned him on a number of occasions and I believe I called to see him
on two occasions at his office In FttzwWiam Square to discuss how my investment
was progressing. I believe that It was Mr. Traynor who Informed me that Mr.
Keane had left Guinness 4 Mahon and that he had been replaced by Mr. Collery.
I received a letter from Mr. Collery In March 1990 informing me that he was no
longer working with Guinness & Mahon and that he could be contacted at Mr.
Traynor's office In FltzwilHam Square. A copy of Mr. Coiieiy's letter to me dated 22
March 1990 Is attached at Appendix 4tothie unsworn statement.
12.1 became concerned about my investment since I had not been receiving any
statements. Following Mr. Traynor's death In May 1994 I attempted to make
contact with Mr. Collery. I had some difficulty In making oontact with him but finally
succeeded in August 1995. I informed him that I was anxious to withdraw
IR£50,000 from my Investment I also Informed Mm that I was anxious to obtain
statements in relation to my investment This conversation took place on the
telephone. Mr. Collery told me that I was seeking to make a large withdrawal. He
also infoimed me that my investment was being dealt with by a Mr. John Furze. I
had not heard of this name before and I Informed Mr. Collery that as far as I was
concerned it was Mr. Traynor and, following hit death, Mr. Codery who was
handling my investment I arranged to meet with Mr. Collery In early September
1995 In Jury's Hotel in Dublin so that I could obtain my withdrawal. I had never
met Mr. Collery In person before and he gave me a description of himself so that I
could recognise him. I recognised Mr. Coftery from his description and he
furnished me with the proceeds of my withdrawal of 1R£50,000 in cash. I
converted the cash Into two bank drafts In Bank of Ireland In Tralee. The proceeds
of these bank drafts were used by ms in December 1999 towards discharging
outstanding tax labllitiea which I have to the Revenue CommlssionerB. I was
unaware as to the mechanism used by Mr. Collery to obtain the funds for my
withdrawal. 1 was merely seeking a withdrawal from the funds which I had
Invested with Mr. Traynor in October 1979. I have recently discovered from
evidence before the Tribunal of Inquiry (Payments to Messrs Charles Haughey
and Michael Lowry) (the "Moriarty Tribunal") that the proceeds for this withdrawal
were obtained by Mr. Collery from Irish Intercontinental Bank and in turn debited
to an account in the name of Hamilton Roes. I was entirely awam of these matters
have had no dealings whatsoever with either Irish Intercontinental Bank or
Hamilton Ross. As for as I was concerned I was making a withdrawal from my
own Investment with Mr. Traynor.
13.1 had one further meeting with Mr. Collery in August 1998.1 had telephoned Mr.
Collery to lookfor statements in relationtomy investment. I arranged to meet with
him in Dublin Airport on 18 August 1998. The whole purpose of the meeting was
so that I could obtain statements from Mr. Collery. I had made an appointment
later that day to bring the statements which I required from Mr. Collery to my
accountant In Dublin. The meeting took place in the Trust House Forte Hotel at
Dubln Airport However, Mr. Collery informed me at the outset of the meeting that
he did not have the statements which I was looking for. The meeting broke up
shortly after this. Mr. Collery Informed me that he would furnish the statements to
me as soon as he could. I then telephoned my accountant and cancelled the
appointment which I had made with him. The appointment was subsequently
rearranged for a date in September 1998. However, since I had not received the
statements from Mr. Collery by then I cancelled the September appointment with
my accountant I was unsuccessful In attempting to contact Mr. Cotlery by phone
following the August meeting. Some time later, tr) May 1999,1 received by poet at
my home address in Kerry, a series of bank statements bearing the names
Ansbacher and Hamilton Ross. The statements concerned the period from
January 1993 to April 1997. They contained the account codes A/A40 and A/A49.
Copies of the statements which I received by post in May 1999 are attached at
Appendix 5 to this unsworn statement The statements did not contain my name
and were not accompanied by any covering letter or note so as to Indicate the
person who sent them. There was nothing on (he face of the statements to
indicate that they related to any investment of mine. I had not previously heard.
either name ft) connection with my Investment I am, however, aware now from
evidence before the Moriarty Tribunal that the funds referred to in the statements
which i received in May 1999 may be the funds which I invested with Mr. Traynor
In 1979. I have given instructions to Mr. Barry Benjamin, whom I have been
Informed by the Moriarty TrS>tinal Is In control of these funds, to release the funds
to my Solicitor to be used to discharge outstanding tax HabllUes. A copy of this
correspondence is attached at Appendix 6. Apart from this I have no contact
whatsoever with Ansbacher or Hamilton Rosa or any person or body representing
either entity.
14. In addition to my Investment with Mr. Traynor in 1879 I also opened a bank
account with Guinness & Mahon in December 1986. The account was a "Resident
Call Deposit Account*, it bore account number 10683009.1 opened the account in
December 1986 with a cheque In the sum of IRE3,342.05. Confirmation of the
opening of the account Is contained in a letter dated 22 December 1988 from Mr.
Collery. A copy of this letter is attached at Appendix 7.1 made further lodgments
of IRE4.885.27 and IR£12,180.50 in August 1987 and March 1988 respectively. In
May 1988 I decided to put this account In the Joint names of myself and my
daughter. Margaret as I was concerned about the state of my health at the time. I
had suffered a heart attack in June 1987. I wrote to Guinness & Mahon
requesting my daughter's name to be added to the account by tetter dated 25
May 1988.1 received a reply from Pat O'Dwyer, Banking Manager of Guinness &
Mahon on 30 May 1988 confirming that the account had been transferred into my
daughter's joint name. Copies of these letters are attached at Appendix 8. In late
19901 was advised by Mr. Traynor that this account should be dosed and that the
balance should be transferred to the Investment account with the fimds which I
had invested in 1979 so that I could enjoy the same beneficial Interest rates. The
account was dosed on 15 November 1990 and the sum of IR£24,009.95 was
withdrawn. Copies of the statements in respect of this Guinness & Mahon account
are contained at Appendix 9.1 assumed ihe funds were transferred to accompany
the other funds which I had invested with Mr. Traynor In 1979. However 1 did not
receive any documentation confirming this. Mr. Traynor did not inform me of the
mechanism by which the account had been dosed and the monies transferred to
accompany my earlier investment I Just assumed it was a straight forward
transaction which he was arranging. From evidence given at the Moriarty Tribunal
there appears to have been a series of transactions between various accounts in
different flnandai Institutions Involving the sum of IRE24.005.95 which was the
balance in my Guinness & Mahon account when It was dosed in November 1990.
However, I had no knowledge whatsoever of any of these transactions. My
understanding was that the deposit account would be closed and that the
proceeds transferred to accompany my earter Investment i was entirely unaware
of the mechanics as to how Mr. Traynor was proposing to implement this
arrangement. Furthermore, I was unaware (as appears to be the case) that the
proceeds of the deposit account were lodged to an account in Ihe name of or held
by Ansbacher or Hamilton Ross.
CENTRAL TOURIST HOLDIMQ8 UiHTTO
. 15.1 have referred earter to C T R I became a director of CTHIn 1972.1 was also an
Investor in the company by means of an investment of IRES,000. I had been
informed by the late William A. Clifford of The Spa, Tralee, County Kerry that the
directors of the Mount Brandon Hotel were interested in acquiring and developing
the old Central Hotel and ballroom in Baltybunion, County Kerry. I agreed to
partidpate In the venture and Invested the sum of IR£5,000 as I have indicated.
The other directors of CTH were John J. Byrne of Slmmonscourt Lodge,
Simmonscourt Road, Balhsbridge, Dublin 4, Thomas Clifford of The Kerries,
Tralee, County Kerry and the late William A. Clifford. I had understood that the
other directors were making a similar investment and that the balance of the
money required for the venture was being borrowed, i was not responsible for
arranging the borrowing. However, i am aware that CTH obtained loan facilities of
IR£70,000 from Guinness & Mahon in or about June 1972. It was my
understanding that this loan was a straightforward loan from Guinness & Mahon
to CTH. I received statements concerning the loan on a regular basis up to in or
around the date of the closing of the sale of the Hotel in 1986. The premises were
purchased and renovated and operated solely as an entertainment centre with a
bar. I held the licence for CTH as the two other local directors already held
licences for other premises in the area. Following a deterioration In the business
of the company it was decided to cease trading andtoseU the premises. I believe
the premises were sold in 1986. The directors at CTH were required to contribute
monies to fund a settlement with the Revenue Commissioners and with other
creditors of the company. I made one contribution of IR£5,000 by cheque made
payable to Haughey Botand on 16 October 1987. The purpose of this payment
was, I was led to believe, by way of contribution towards the repayment of
creditors of the company. I paid another cheque in the sum of IR£2,787 on 28
October 1987 (also payable to Haughey Boland) which I understood represented
my contribution towards repaying the Revenue Commissioners who were owed
monies from CTH. The arrangements for the winding up of the business of the
company were managed by CTH's Solicitors and by Paul Carty of Haughey
Boland. i signed a cheque dated 20 October 1987 In the sum of IR£42,680.00
payable to Guinness & Mahon. This cheque was drawn on an account opened by
CTH's Solicitors in the name of CTH In Bank of Ireland, Listowel with the
proceeds of sale of the premises. My recollection is that I waa requested to draw
the cheque by the company's Solicitors in order to finalise matters with Guinness
& Mahon. I believe I gave the cheque to either Mr. Grace, the company's Solicitor,
or to . Paul Carty of Haughey Boland. I was unaware as to what Guinness &
Mahon did with the cheque. However I understand from evidence at the Moriarty
Trfounal that the proceeds of the cheque may have been credited on 23 October
1987 to an account entitled "Amiens S/L No. 2 Account No. 10407006". I have no
knowledge, however, about that account I was unaware as to how the cheque
was dealt with once it was paid over. I was glad to be out of the business of CTH
as it had cost me money and I believe It seriously affected my health.
CQNCLUPtNQ COMMENTS
18.1 would be happy to explain or clarify any issue arising from this unsworn
statement I am also happy to co-operate fuBy with the Inspectors and as best I
can to deaf with any further queries which they may have.
<e
Dated: ? April 2000
Denis Foley
A P P E N D I X 1
STATEMENT OFlDENIS FOLEY T.D. TO THE

INSPECTORS APPOINTED BY ORDER OF THE HIGH
COURT TO ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED
LODGMENT FOfl
CURRENT ACCOUNT OF
0.0 c ^ o
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LODGMENT I
CURRENT ACCOUNT. OF
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• X
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RATE CHANCE
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frlSPhALAHCC BROUCHT (QRMARO'
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T«L766t 44/763066 42 .FfTZWILLIAM S Q U A R E
taMbitl 2035
DUBLIN 2.
22nd March, 1990.

Denis Foley, Esq.,
6 Day Place,
TRALEE,
Co. Kerry.
Dear Denis,
I am writing to advise you that I am no longer working in
Guinness « Mahon. My new telephone number is or .
you can leave a message with Joan Williams, Mr. Des Traynov1
Secretary, at the above number and she will contact me. '
I would be grateful if you could give me a call in the next
week or so to arrange a meeting aa there are one or two
things I would like to discuss with you.
Yours sincerely.
(L>
P.P. Collerv.
A P P E N D I X
— —' -WHSBACyREFTT — E C f
P.O. Boy MT Qiand Cayman " i Waal Indtaa
1 £ TaUpt'on* No.
TdwCPaas cawa Addnaa Gutanaaa
GbSSbar .Itaitad
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11/12/H ?n-nri"willB
A NSBACHER LIMITED ^
jSL- .J. Box mt Grand Cayman British Waal li..'»»
Talaphona No. 8—48S3*
jCCULTOM BOSS- - Tata CP 305 Cabla Mdraaa Gulnnaaa
A/MO
J MOOUMTNUMaW 80001629 M I
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W/06/93 MouaHi nmmo

Il/OT/93 16/06/93 IS 10000
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A P P E N D I X
'31 January 2000
RBG'D POST
Mr Barry Benjamin
Hamilton Boss Ltd
P.O. BoX 887
Grand Caynan
^ Cayman Islands
British West Indies
RE: Memorandum Accounts K/K40 & A/A49
Dear Mr Benjamin
I an informed that my' investments originally made per the late
Bes Traynor are in the above named accounts and amount to a sum
ill excess of £140,000 sterling* I now wish to withdraw these
funds and I trust that you will accept this letter as formal
•• authorisation. I instruct you to furnish the funds to my
' solicitor Thomas J O'Halloran, Solicitor, Upper Ashe Street,
Tralee, County Kerry. Ireland.
If for any reason tlie funds cannot be release^ to my solicitor
immediately, please let me know.
^ I am sending a letter on similar terms directly to Hamilton Ross.
Yours faithfully
DENIS F0LB7
31 January 2000
REG'D POST i
Hamilton Ross Ltd
P.O. Box 887
r'Grand Cayman
Cayman islands '
.British West Indies
i
RE? Memorandum Accounts A/A40 & A/A49
Dear Sirs
I an informed thatrayinvestments originally/made per the late
Das Traynor are in the above named accounts and amount to a sum
in excess of £140,000 sterling. X now wish to withdraw these
'• iuads and 1 trust that you will accept this-letter as formal
authorisation. I instruct you to furnish/the funds to my
solicitor Thoaas J O'Halloran, Solicitor< Upper Ashe Street,
Tralee, County Kerry, Ireland.
t i
If for any reason the funds cannot ba released to my solicitor
^ immediately, please let me know.
f I an sending a letter on similar terms dirictly to Mr. Barry
Benjamin.
yours faithfully
DENIS FOLBY
ANSBACHBR (CATMAN)
PO Box 117 Grand Ctynun
HENRY ANSBACHER CAYMAN ISLANDS
Biitiib W m loAa
TdtpJjom +1 34S 9*9 B<55
Fudjnite +1 MS 949 73+6
T d n CP +305 ANSBAC C
E-imfl mibay@cu>dwJqr
REGISTERED MAIL
14 February 2000 .
Hamilton Row J
i\0. Box 1
CAYMAN
Dear Sirs,
We are enclosing a letter (and the relevant envelope) from a Mr. Denis Foley addressed to you with
our P.O.' Box number in error, which was opened by us inadvertently. W e also enclose another
envelope (both came by Registered Mail) addressed to Mr. Barry Beiysunin, again incorrectly using
ourP.O. Box.
Rather than return the mail as incorrectly addressed, we have decided to forward them on to you on
this occasion. N o doubt you will advise your contacts of your address and that there is no
relationship wife Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited.
Yours faifhftdly,
J.ll. Bothwdl
Managing Director
Encs:
c.c. Mr. Denis Foley
i y t t W t—f
•7I«» PlVXWILUAM • OUAnt.
Ou«Li« a, imlans
TUIMOmi (OI> 878 >721 '
. FAX (Ol) 87* Mt7
•HAH. rOITMAirKft9VBLAW.lt
INCENT & BEAITY Wtum www.vaua.ia
i.o.b. toaeai.
O U 1 C I T O R S
Thomas J. OHallorsn Esq.,

Solicitor, RECEIVED
Upper Ashe Street, w&3*fr
2 - MAR 1999
Tralee,
Co. Kerry.
FagNo 066 7123024
kroh2000
R E : Deals Foley and Hamilton Ross.
Dear Sir,
Fudjier to our recentfinew e have beenrequestedby Hamilton Rosa Limited to n p l y to your

Client's letter to them o f the 31" l a w n y lest
Fast o f sill we should p u n t out that your Client's letter was addressed to P.O. B o x 887 which
meansthatftreacluxlHenry Anabacher who sent it onto H a m ^ 14 a ulU They
jsaoestcd Hamilton Ross to inform any correspondent Out there is no relationship between
lilton Ross and Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited. The P.O. Box of Hamilton Ross is 1369.
j ect to authorisation with verification and validationJEIimiltan Rosi is prepared to transfer

fbnda in accordance with transfer instructions.
Please forward to us the following:
1. The signed authorisation o fyour Client authorising Hamilton Rom to transfer ftmda to
your firm. T h e authorisation should identify a copy of your Client's Passport or
Driving Licence (with photograph). The authorisation will have to be completed before
a Notary Public who will also verify the copy Passport or Driving Licence. The Notary
Public seal must be validated at the Apostile Office in theDepsrtment o f Foreign
Af&irs.
2. . A letter of confirmation from Mr. Fadraig Collery which will have attached to it a copy
of Mr. Foley's authority to your firm identifying Mr. Foley u the person entitled to
•v' claim the Kinds held by Hamilton Ross on his behalf. The letter of confirmation from
mi
WU.TC* MAW IKOTAUT rV*UC),

mmaumiIiH lrt»u»>iu< firuuilur.
2 VINCENT &BEATTY
Mr. Colleiy should identify a copy of hi* Passport or Driving licence (wife
photograph). Mr. CoUeiyssigMture istobe witnessed by a Notary Public who will
also be teqoind to verify the copy Passport or Driving Licence. The seal o f the Notary
Public will have to be validated by the Apostile Office in the Department of Foreign
ACDius.
W h a forwarding these docmnenfetous plesae state how t h e f t s If
theyare to be creditedtoan account of your finnpleaaegiven the name snd address o f the
bank, die number of the account and the sort code.
Yours fiuthfully,
VINCENT ftBEATTY.
r fafp-iiLt >>
I GUINNESS+MAHON LTD
17 ColWs* 6rt«a Dublin 2 P.O. Box MA Td: 796944 fcOUhwl
I
I O u r Re* AO'C/PMcG
I 22 December l?S6
Mr D e n i s F o l e y
I A Day P l a c e
Tralee
CO KERRY
Dear Sir
RE: Account No. 1058^0? 1
V * r e f e r to y o u r r e c e n t v i s i t t o o u r o f f i c e . T e c o n f i r m h a v i n g
l o d g e d cheque f o r 1 3 , 2 4 2 . 0 5 ( t h r e e t h o u s a n d , t h r e e h u n d r e d and
' f o r t y - t w o pounds end f i v e pence) t o a new R e s i d e n t C a l l D e p o s i t
A c c o u n t 'In y o u r name, v a l u e d a t e d 22/12/S4.
The I n t e r e s t r a t e a p p l i c a b l e t o y o u r a c c o u n t f o r t h i s m o n t h i s
11 p e r cceenntt g r o s s . G r o s s I n t e r e s t when a p p l i e d i s s u b j e c t t o
33 p e r c e n t R e t e n t i o n T a x .
T h e r a t e p a i d i s r e v i e w a b l e on t h e l a s t w o r k i n g d e y o f e a c h
rrwnth. T h e p r e v a i l i n g r a t e n a y be a s c e r t a i n e d by t e l e p h o n e d /
w r i t t e n e n q u i r y , o r by r e f e r e n c e to T h e t r i a h I n d e p e n d e n t *nd
T h e I r i s h Tirr.es each Monday.
? l e a s e f i n d e n c l o s e d s i g n a t u r e card to signed by y o u r s t l f and
r e t u r n e d to us a t y o u r e a r l i e s t c o n v e n i e n c e .
Yours i a l t h i u i l y
for OHWSSS^MHON LIMITED
/.yn'P Collery
i' ASSOCIATE DIS2CT0R
;nc
f riff**** twit TAI Dii.fp' mi JH CwmM ItoMMlU-t IW W„ M, WW-

f.
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M s ^
—
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i y f " r&fiijî ft —-^g-N aîr,iHvti"» \ A M iivifctj.
flft* "V^ >v *. f l i K NViO
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ft
r
i '
BAÎ^S
it uutuut unt> m tux t
rcuntuyt »•«
PO'D/SC
30th'May, 1988.
Mr. Denis Foley,

6 Day Plica,
Tralee,
CO. KBRHZ
Dear Denis,
,\a/C No. 10S83009
Thank you. for your latter of the 23th Inst. As requested I

have arranged to transfer the balance of. the above account to a
joint account in your name and that of your daughter Ma.
Margaret Voley.
I enclose a joint mandate for completion and return.
. With kindest regards.
y?uml sincerely,
S4
Pat o*Dwyer,
Banking Manager.
.vox iKtecrtt't MKtL-ru*» r w m*>*»tiu iMtiNH ch.\um.v\ n immtfimcmj r mmmii.

I C U»V«.J>»_U II, IMUIU MIIOH.
(XtCl'TlVt 0UICT1JH1 MIOU1LJ ItMlIk U V.\AUlSU. OHIK CI MCULIM. Of..-
MRALOC j »UC».\CKt.* .ICPIITMIV ,u«.MUC«»V.N.\0»»« ) W»W*ttl
n< i.-.itKnixm mv ntivim; mim«.». ..
ftlffiftlinf ftfPtflBant' 27/07/98 15:59:08
•jnt: 1058&009 RESIDENT CALL D/A
inent start Date

V..
Value Narrative . Post Asount Balance • •>•'
ULY87 Balance brought forward 3;474.05CR
JLY87 CR. INTEREST RATE CHANGED 3,474.05CR
9.00 GROSS
AUG87 LOOSED 4..885.27CR 8,359.32CR
AUG87 CR. INTEREST RATE CHANGED 8.359.32CR
8.50 CROSS
'SEP87 CR. INTEREST RATE CHANGED
8.00 GROSS
RETENTION TAX AT 35.00* 48,3900
IHT. APPLIED TO 3O8EP07 138.27CR 8,449.20GR
QCT87 RETENTION TAX AT 35.00% 20.080R
INT. APPLIED TO 310CT87 S7.39CR 8,486.51CR
IN0V87 CR. INTEREST RATE CHANGED
7.50 GROSS
1 - Exit,
<
•5» .
"I
•:t
27/07/98 15:59:46
:courrt: 10583009 RESIDENT CALL D/A
atenent start Date
1 Value Narrative Post Aaourrt Balaoca k

30NDV87 7.50 GROSS
RETENTION TAX AT 35.00% 19.48QR
INT. APPLIED TO 30N0V87 55.67CR 8.522.70CR
. 310EC87 RETENTION TAX AT 35.00% 18.990R
INT. APPLIED TO 31DEC87 54.26CR 8.557.97CR
29JAN89 RETENTION TAX AT 35.00% 19.080R
INT. APPLIED TO 31JAN88 54.59CR • 8.593.42CR
29FEB88 RETENTION TAX AT 35.00% 17.90CR '
INT. APPLIED TO 29FEB88 51.17CR 8,626.69CR
01HAR88 LODGED 12,180.54CR 20,807.23CR
31HAR88 RETENTION TAX AT 35.00% 42.47DR
INT. APPLIED TO 31HAR88 121.35CR 20,886.11CR
29APR88 RETENTION TAX AT 35.00% 42.060R •
INT. APPLIED TO 30APR88 120.18CR 20.964.23C +
•0-1 - Exit,
Account Stateeerit 27/07/98 15:59:51
ourrt: 10583009 • RESIDENT CALL D/A
tenant start Date
Value Narrative Poat Aeourrt Balance

29APR88 INT. APPLIED TO 30APB88 120.18CR . 20.964.23CR
31HAY88 RETENTION TAX AT 35.00% 43.41DO
INT. APPLIED TO 31HAY88 124.04CR 21.044.&6CR
50JUN88 RETENTION TAX AT 35.00% 36.330R
Irrt. Applied To 30JUN88 1O3.0OCR . 21.112.d3Cn
30SEP88 RETENTION TAX AT 35.00% 124.520R
Int. Applied To 30SEP88 355.79CR • 21,343.6OCR
JOOEC88 RETENTION TAX AT 35.00% 127.190R
Int. Applied To 31DEC88 363.40CR 21J579 81CR
J1HAR89 RETENTION TAX AT 35.00% 125.68DR
Irrt. Applied To 31HAR89 359.1OCR 21.ei3.23CR
J0JUN89 RETENTION TAX AT 32.00% 121.86DR
Int. Applied To 30JUN99 380.83CR 22.072.20CR
'.9SEP89 RETENTION TAX AT 32.00% 139.89DR
l 1 - Exit,
AWMTrt stateierrt; 27/07/98 15.59:57
•.count: 10683009 - RESIDENT CALL D/A
atanerrt s t a r t Date
h
L Value Narrative Post Aaourrt
29SEP86 RETENTION TAX AT 32.00% 1-39.890R Balance
I n t . Applied To 30SEP69 437.16CR
29DEC88 RETENTION TAX AT 32.00% 160.72DR 22,369.47CR
Irrt. Applied To 31DEC89 502.26CR
30HAR90 RETENTION TAX AT 32.00% 177.74DR 22.711.01CR
Irrt. Applied To 31HAR90 555.46CR
29JUN90 RETENTION TAX AT 30.00 % 161.4800 23,0^8.73CR
I n t . Applied To 30JUN90 538.27CR
28SEP90 RETENTION TAX AT 30.00 % 155.530R 23,465.52CR
I n t . Applied To 30SEP90 518.44CR
15NGV90 HR D AND HRS H FOLEY 24.005.950R 23,828.43CR
RETENTION TAX § 30% 76.07DR
INT TO 151190 2S3.59CR O.OOCR
Id 1 - E x i t ,
Appendix XV (44) Fruit Importers of Ireland Limited
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to
Fruit Importers of Ireland Limited.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Neil McCann dated 31 March 2000.
b) Letter of 2 March 2000 from Neil McCann to Inspectors.
c) Purchase agreement of 20 March 1974.
d) Authorisation to open deposit a/c of 4 October 1978.
e) Authorisation to open deposit a/c dated February 1979.
f) Guinness and Mahon statement of externalfixed deposit re International

Fruit Agents dated 23 November 1976.
g) Telex of 14 October 1977 from John Furze to Guinness and Mahon.
h) GMCT statement of a/c of 26 November 1974.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. NEIL McCANN
UNDER OATH
ON FRIDAY, 31ST MARCH 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. NEIL McCANN
Represented by: MR. DAN O'KEEFE SC
Instructed by: MR. MICHAEL MEGHEN
ARTHUR COX
EARLSFORT CENTRE
EARLSFORT TERRACE
DUBLIN 2
I N D E X
WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE
MR. N. McCANN MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 6 - 6 2
MS. MACKEY 63 - 69
MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 70 - 73

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON FRIDAY
2 31ST MARCH 2000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr McCann, we will start
5 our interview now.
6 MR. McCANN: Yes.
7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I am Declan Costello and
8 on my right is Ms. Mackey.
9 MR. McCANN: Yes.
10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We are two of the
11 Inspectors that have been
12 appointed by The High Court.
13 MR. McCANN: Yes.
14 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: What I explain to people
15 who come for interview is
16 this that this is not a Court.
17 MR. McCANN: Yes, right.
18 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It is not a Tribunal.
19 MR. McCANN: Yes.
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It is an interview.
21 MR. McCANN: Right.
22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If during the course of
23 this interview you want to
24 consult with your counsel or solicitor please tell
25 me and I will stop asking you questions and you
26 could do so.
28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And if during the
29 interview your counsel or
4
1 solicitor wish to consult with you.
3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: They can indicate this to
4 me and we will stop the
5 questions and then you can consult with your legal
6 advisors.
7 MR. McCANN: Thank you very much.
8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. McCann, this
9 interview, as you know, is
10 under oath and I would ask now Ms. Cummins, our
11 solicitor, to administer the oath to you.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. NEIL McCANN, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AS
2 FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. McCann, I think
5 we could best start if you
6 give us a bit of background?
7 A. Yes.
8 2 Q. To yourself?
9 A. Yes.
10 3 Q. And to the company Fruit Importers Ireland Limited?
11 A. Yes.
12 4 Q. And what members of your family were involved in
13 that and how the shares were held. Could you just
14 give me general background information?
15 A. Sure. Well, my father and brother died within two
16 years of each other back in 1952 and 1954 and I ran
17 then -- I took over the running of the company,
18 which was a family company operated out of Dundalk.
19 5 Q. Yes?
20 A. And then through the years, moving through the 1950s
21 into the 1960s, the company started to grow somewhat
22 and we moved into Dublin to establish a brokerage
23 business and partnership there with a North of
24 Ireland firm. Through the 1960s, you know, that
25 developed. In the 1970s we kept on, you know
26 growing until finally we came into the 1980s and at
27 that stage, in the early 1980s, the company merged
28 with D.C.C., and also went public, I think, a year
29 ot two afterwards.
6
1 6 Q. Yes?
2 A. And probably in those early 1980s, you know, one of
3 my sons came into the business as Finance Director.
4 In 1986 we bought the UK company, which was Fyffes.
5 As I say we acquired that company and eventually we
6 changed the name of what had been FII -- the
7 company I think was changed from McCann to
8 Tormey Brothers & McCann then to FII. It went then
9 from FII to Fyffes. Fyffes was a pretty substantial
10 public company -- well, by our standards pretty
11 substantial.
12 7 Q. Yes?
13 A. Then another son then came in. He was a solicitor
14 and he came in, I think, in 1988 or 1987 and that
15 leaves us where we are today.
16 8 Q. Mr. McCann, was it the same company all these years
17 or was a separate company incorporated called FII?
18 A. I think FII was incorporated separately, yes, and it
19 acquired Tormey Brothers & McCann, which was the
20 partnership and then...(INTERJECTION).
21 9 Q. Yes. I...(INTERJECTION)?
22 A. Sorry?
23 10 Q. Sorry, Mr. McCann I just want to get the technical
24 details. The business that you carried on after
25 your father died?
26 A. Yes .
27 11 Q. Was that a Limited company?
28 A. That was a Limited company.
29 12 Q. What was the name of that company?

1 A. It was Charles McCann Limited.
2 13 Q. Limited?
3 A. Yes .
4 14 Q. Yes. Was it in 1968 that FII was incorporated as a
5 new company?
6 A. I am just not sure. I knew we had been inviting in
7 various people and we said -- it was about that
8 time.
9 15 Q. However, am I right in saying that a new company was
10 formed called...(INTERJECTION)?
11 A. I am sorry, Justice.
12 16 Q. Yes .
13 MR. MEGHEN: Judge, my understanding is
14 that the new company was
15 formed at the time of the D.C.C., investment, which
16 was in either 1979 or 1980.
17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes .
18 MR. MEGHEN: And that the business and
19 assets of the former
20 companies.
21 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is ... (INTERJECTION)
22 MR. MEGHEN: Were transferred.
23 17 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Sorry, I may have been --
24 I may have misunderstood
25 some of the documents, Mr. McCann?
26 A. Yes .
27 18 Q. I understood that a new company was formed in 1968
28 called Fruit Importers Ireland Limited, am I wrong
29 in that?
8
1 A. I think you are right, Justice.
3 A. I think you are right. I am not just sure of the
4 years and that FII lived until -- it lived until the
5 beginning of the 1980s and then there was a new
6 company formed.
7 20 Q. Yes. I will come to that later. Really what I am
8 concerned at the moment is...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. I think you are right. I am sorry I should know
10 that.
11 21 Q. With FII?
12 A. Yes.
13 22 Q. Yes?
14 A. I think I can find that out, you know, very quickly.
15 23 Q. If you look at page 3 of your statement to us
16 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 1)?
17 A. Yes, you are very good.
18 24 Q. Do you see part "B"? You say there:
19 "Fyffes pic is an Irish publicly quoted

company"?
20
21 A. Yes.
22 25 Q.
"I control approximately 10% of
23 Fyffes pic. Fyffes pic was
incorporated in 1980 and acquired the
24 fruit distribution business previously
carried on by another Irish company
25 Fruit Importers of Ireland Limited
which was incorporated in 1968"?
26
27 A. I think that the piece about, you know,
28 "Fruit Importers of Ireland Limited

incorporated in 1968,"
29
9
1 I think this is accurate.
2 26 Q. That is really all I am concerned about?
3 A. Well, that is accurate.
4 27 Q. At the moment?
5 A. I believe.
6 28 Q. Yes. Presumably then this was incorporated and took
7 over the business which had been previously carried
8 on by Charles McCann Limited?
9 A. Yes, which had spread over the years.
10 29 Q. Of course?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 30 Q. What I am concerned to know is, in 1968, who held
13 the shares in the company Fruit Importers of Ireland
14 limited?
15 A. Right.
16 31 Q. Just generally?
17 A. Okay, the general way...(INTERJECTION).
18 32 Q. Approximately?
19 A. Well, I controlled I think -- I certainly controlled
20 the majority of the shares.
21 33 Q. Yes?
22 A. Through my own holding and family trusts.
23 34 Q. Yes?
24 A. Which were being done around that time I think.
25 They were done through The Bank Of Ireland.
26 35 Q. Yes?
27 A. But it was more than 50%. It was probably in the
28 order of sixty something per cent.
29 36 Q. Yes. Who else was in the company then?
10
1 A. Well, then there were a number of people in the
2 company. There were family companies around the
3 country and there were people in the market there
4 who had been invited to participate and they took
5 shares in the company.
6 37 Q. You were the major shareholder?
7 A. I was a major shareholder.
8 38 Q. Had you...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. My ownself or my trusts.
10 39 Q. Your trusts?
11 A. Yes.
12 40 Q. We held the other shares then, the other 40%
13 approximately?
14 A. Yes.
15 41 Q. Divided up amongst a number of different people?
16 A. A number of different people.
17 42 Q. Yes?
18 A. Some big and some small.
19 43 Q. Small, yes. I see. Did you have any brothers or
20 sisters in the company?
21 A. No.
22 44 Q. At that stage?
23 A. No, no.
24 45 Q. It was mainly controlled then by yourself?
25 A. Yes.
26 4 6 Q. And then later your sons came in and we can deal
27 with that later?
28 A. Yes.
29 47 Q. Who were your accountants, the firms, the company's
11
1 accountants, then?
2 A. The accountants were a firm called Story & Phelan.
3 48 Q. Yes?
4 A. Which the Managing Partner was Jack Story.
5 49 Q. Yes?
6 A. And they continued as the accountants from the
7 foundation until right into after the deal was done
8 with Fyffes.
9 50 Q. Yes. That would be in the 1980s?
10 A. In the 1980s.
11 51 Q. Yes?
12 A. And then they were acquired by SKC.
13 52 Q. Yes. Story & Phelan were acquired?
14 A. Story & Phelan.
15 53 Q. Story & Phelan were your accountants then, the
16 firm's accountants?
17 A. They were the auditors, yes.
18 54 Q. And auditors, yes?
19 A. Yes.
20 55 Q. Did you have a personal accountant yourself looking
21 after your own personal affairs or did they look
22 after your affairs as well?
23 A. I think SKC were the personal accountants.
24 56 Q. Yes. You would have an association with SKC then
25 for a very long time?
26 A. For a long time.
27 57 Q. Yes. Did you have a solicitor then, a personal
28 solicitor, who looked after your own affairs?
29 A. Yes. Well, there were two firms involved there.
12
1 58 Q. Yes?
2 A. I had a firm in Dundalk called Daniel O'Connell &
3 Son.
4 59 Q. Yes?
5 A. The principal was Peter O'Connell.
6 60 Q. Yes?
7 A. And then in Dublin we had Coxs and we operated
8 mostly with Denis Bergin and at a later stage with
9 Mr. Michael Meghen.
10 61 Q. Yes. I want to come to your meeting in
11 Guinness & Mahon, your first association with them.
12 When did you first become associated with
13 Guinness & Mahon?
14 A. I think it was at a time in the 1960s that we were
15 trying to buy a company called The Tropical Fruit
16 Company and Guinness & Mahon were acting for them,
17 and we more or less thought we had negotiated a deal
18 but it fell through, and the person at that stage
19 was a man called William Forwood.
20 62 Q. Yes. That is when you first met them?
21 A. I believe so.
22 63 Q. When did you first start then to enter into a client
23 relationship with them?
24 A. Again, I am fairly certain but I will just say I
25 think or I believe, I think it was the time of the
26 first bank strike.
27 64 Q. Yes?
28 A. And they stayed open during the bank strike and they
29 gave, you know, a very good services.
13
1 65 Q. Yes. Did you meet Mr. Traynor?
2 A. I met Mr. Traynor, I would say maybe seven or eight
3 times over the years, just to shake hands and say
4 hello.
5 66 Q. Who then was your main contact in Guinness & Mahon?
6 A. The main contact would have been Maurice 0'Kelly.
7 67 Q. Yes?
8 A. And then it kind of varied. In the early stages it
9 was certainly Maurice O'Kelly.
10 68 Q. Yes?
11 A. Whom I got to know very well.
12 69 Q. Yes?
13 A. And then at a later stage also Martin Keane.
14 70 Q. Yes?
15 A. And then there were a few names, one was a chap in
16 the Foreign Exchange Department with whom I had a
17 fair few dealings called Scully.
18 71 Q. Yes?
19 A. But that was very much a phone business and that was
20 about it.
21 72 Q. Did you meet Mr. Collery at all?
22 A. No.
23 73 Q. Mr. Traynor then you would have only met over the
24 years a number of times, a few times?
25 A. I don't think I ever had a full conversation with
26 him.
27 74 Q. Yes. Mr. McCann, if Stokes Kennedy Crowley then
28 were looking after your own personal affairs, in
29 relation to the matters that you referred to about
14
1 Paris Investments?
2 A. Yes .
3 75 Q. And the steps that were then taken?
4 A. Sure.
5 76 Q. In relation to tax avoidance schemes that were being
6 operated, that was on the advice of Stokes Kennedy
7 Crowley?
8 A. That was on the advice of Stokes Kennedy Crowley I
9 believe.
10 77 Q. Yes. Who in Stokes Kennedy Crowley were you
11 discussing these affairs with?
12 A. Now, the involved people there I believe were
13 Alex Spain at some stage and John Callaghan at
14 another stage.
15 78 Q. Yes?
16 A. And maybe, you know, various people at a lower level
17 but I believe it was Alex Spain and John Callaghan.
18 79 Q. What about Mr. Reid, Mr. Don Reid?
19 A. Mr. Reid, sorry, Mr. Don Reid, yes.
20 80 Q. Yes?
21 A. It wasn't very much with him but I do know that he
22 appeared at some stage.
23 81 Q. Yes?
24 A. Just, I should also say, that at that time I mean I
25 was a kind of a hands on person dealing with all
26 aspects of the business.
27 82 Q. Yes?
28 A. And I wasn't familiar with what was happening in
29 wherever, in Bermuda, and eventually Paris and so

1 on. I was probably kept in the picture but I wasn't
2 really, you know in the driving seat, as it were,
3 because I was running all the rest of the business.
4 We were growing and there was, you know -- people
5 were working terribly hard and so on.
6 83 Q. Yes?
7 A. But in any event I have gleaned a lot in the last
8 few months of what, you know, was happening.
9 84 Q. Did...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. I wasn't entirely in the dark either.
11 85 Q. Did you go into Stokes Kennedy Crowley and see
12 Mr. Spain and Mr. Reid?
13 A. I see a reference in these papers here, it was
14 suggesting having a meeting with myself and then I
15 saw another -- I think there was -- one of the
16 letters was copied to me. I think Alex Spain's
17 letter was copied to me but I notice the following
18 letters -- sorry, pardon me. The following letters
19 were not copied to me.
20 86 Q. Yes?
21 A. As I say I am familiar now with what had been
22 happening.
23 87 Q. I see a reference in the correspondance to a
24 Ms. Spain?
25 A. Yes .
26 88 Q. Who is your Financial Director?
27 A. Yes .
28 89 Q. Was she then related to Alex Spain?
29 A. A sister.
1 90 Q. Was she an accountant herself?
2 A. She is a qualified accountant.
3 91 Q. Would she have been involved, do you think, with
4 Mr. Alex Spain in these arrangements?
5 A. She was involved, yes.
6 92 Q. Yes?
7 A. Yes. She was a very competent lady.
8 93 Q. Yes?
9 A. And a very what would you say, you know, meticulous
10 and a person of the highest integrity.
11 94 Q. Then she would have been a person that would have
12 been involved then in these tax planning proposals
13 that were being discussed?
14 A. Yes .
15 95 Q. Yes?
16 A. Yes .
17 96 Q. Perhaps, more than you were?
18 A. I would say more than I was but having said that I
19 mean the responsibility would clearly have been
20 mine.
21 97 Q. Ms. Spain is she alive? Is she able to give
22 evidence?
23 A. She is alive. Well, if you ask me that question I
24 would say there is a question mark. Ms. Spain at
25 that stage was under an awful lot of pressure
26 because she was a very scrupulous person and she was
27 overwhelmed with work and I think I was at fault for
28 that but in 1979 or that period, 1979/1980, she was
29 quite ill and it was on and off. I mean I assume --

1 am I talking in-house.
2 98 Q. Yes, or course?
3 A. Yes.
4 99 Q. This is absolutely confidential?
5 A. Right, yes.
6 100 Q. Yes?
7 A. Well, anyway she had severe bouts of depression at
8 that stage.
9 101 Q. Yes?
10 A. And eventually I think in 1979/1980 she had a long
11 period in hospital. She came back to the business
12 for a while but eventually she retired early in 1982
13 or 1983 or thereabouts. I am not sure about dates.
14 102 Q. Yes?
15 A. But she had a very bad time and probably the
16 pressures of mergers and public companies, off shore
17 accounts and, you know, maybe lack of consideration
18 on my part in not providing her with proper people
19 and that to back her up, but she was very much
20 involved.
21 103 Q. She was involved then but, you say, she retired
22 early?
23 A. Yes.
24 104 Q. She went into ill health?
25 A. Yes.
26 105 Q. And she retired early then?
27 A. Yes.
28 106 Q. Had she been out of the business ever since?
29 A. That must be the best part of about 17 or 18 years
18
1 ago.
2 107 Q. Yes?
3 A. She has been out of the business since except that
4 she does some little bit. I mean she is officially
5 retired but she takes care at the same time.
6 108 Q. Did you consider asking her about this question of
7 this trust, that we will come to now in a moment?
8 A. Yes.
9 109 Q. And your letter concerning it?
10 A. At first I was very nervous of speaking to her at
11 all in case I might trigger off a repeat.
12 110 Q. Yes?
13 A. Or a return of the illness.
14 111 Q. Yes?
15 A. But some of the other people in our place have
16 spoken to her.
17 112 Q. Yes?
18 A. I have spoken to her.
19 113 Q. Yes?
20 A. But in a very limited way.
21 114 Q. Yes?
22 A. I gather that she has a fairly clear picture.
23 115 Q. I see?
24 A. Of what went on.
25 116 Q. Yes. I would like to come to this letter that you
26 wrote to the Cayman company. It is page 26 of our
27 documents (Exhibit 2) (Same Handed)?
28 A. You are marvelous. Thank you very much. Yes.
29 117 Q. Was that your personal, your private, address,
19
1 "Miltown Grange, Castlebellingham"?
2 A. Yes .
3 118 Q. The copy of the letter that we have is undated. Can
4 you explain that?
5 A. I can't. In fact I can't explain anything about
6 this letter.
7 119 Q. I will come to that in a moment, Mr. McCann?
8 A. Sorry.
9 120 Q. However, I am just wondering -- we have been given,
10 we all presume, a photocopy and it seems to be a
11 photocopy of a copy of a letter. However, do you
12 now whether the original copy is undated or not?
13 A. Yes, undated.
14 121 Q. It is undated?
15 A. Undated.
16 122 Q. The document you got was undated?
17 A. Yes .
18 123 Q. Before we go into this document I want you to tell
19 me how you came across this document?
20 A. Well, when I got the letter from yourselves.
21 124 Q. Yes?
22 A. About the enquiry.
23 125 Q. Yes?
24 A. I was staggered. Anyway having said that we
25 immediately appointed a team of three people, the
26 Finance Director Mr. Gernon and Mrs. Ghose, who
27 manages my personal affairs and also she is a
28 Taxation Manager for the company, and also a man
29 called John Hennessy, who was a partner in Arthur
20
1 Anderson and is now practicing at the Bar. They
2 have done very little else for the last two months
3 but try and get, try and build, up the information
4 on what went on over these years.
5 126 Q. Yes?
6 A. And it is a lot of work and I must say that most of
7 the people that we approached were more than helpful
8 in making files available and any information.
9 127 Q. Yes?
10 A. And I think, trawling through the SKC files, they
11 found this letter (Exhibit 2).
12 128 Q. Yes. When you say "they" do you mean either
13 Mr. Gernon, Mrs. Ghose or Mr. Hennessy?
14 A. Yes .
15 129 Q. They found the letter?
16 A. Yes, in SKC.
17 130 Q. You must have contacted Stokes Kennedy Crowley to
18 ask permission?
19 A. We did.
20 131 Q. Who did you contact in Stokes Kennedy Crowley?
21 A. I just don't know that, who was contacted, but I
22 know at various -- I spoke to Alex Spain myself at
23 some stage.
24 132 Q. Yes?
25 A. I spoke to Don Reid at another stage.
26 133 Q. Yes?
27 A. And I gather that some members of that team, maybe
28 Mrs. Ghose, who had worked for years in SKC,
29 approached other people -- Don Reid and Alex Spain
21
1 have left the company or the partnership at this
2 stage.
3 134 Q. Yes?
4 A. And also John Callaghan but various members of
5 that group spoke to those other people. I spoke to
6 Mr. Sean Mooney as well.
7 135 Q. Who is Mr. Mooney?
8 A. Mr. Mooney is the taxation man in SKC.
9 136 Q. I am just wondering, SKC must have searched their
10 files?
11 A. Yes.
12 137 Q. Their records?
13 A. Sure.
14 138 Q. For documents?
15 A. Yes.
16 139 Q. I am just wondering who in SKC would have done this?
17 Who would have undertaken this task? Were you in
18 touch with the Managing Partner of SKC or who were
19 you in touch with do you know?
20 A. Well, I know I was in touch with, as I say,
21 Alex Spain.
22 140 Q. However, they are retired now?
23 A. Yes, they are retired.
24 141 Q. Yes?
25 A. I was also in touch with Sean Murphy.
26 142 Q. What... (INTERJECTION)?
27 A. And he would have made approaches to other members.
28 143 Q. Yes?
29 A. But I can find out very quickly and very easily.
22
1 144 Q. Who actually...(INTERJECTION)?
2 A. Who opened the file.
3 145 Q. Yes. Then as a result of this one letter?
4 A. Sure.
5 146 Q. Has been given to you?
6 A. Yes.
7 147 Q. Were you given any other letters?
8 A. I think other letters, I mean of the dealings with
9 ourselves and SKC, were available to us but there
10 was nothing pertinent.
11 148 Q. Yes?
12 A. That our people deemed pertinent.
13 14 9 Q. Were you given any correspondance that SKC may have
14 had with Cayman?
15 A. I think if that had been there it would have --
16 sorry, with Cayman.
17 150 Q. Yes?
18 A. Anything we got from...(INTERJECTION).
19 151 Q. Can you remember now, Mr. McCann?
20 A. No, no. I can tell you that whatever we got from
21 SKC has been sent to you.
22 152 Q. I wonder is that right? I mean have you given us
23 every piece of paper that SKC gave you?
24 A. Everything -- I will put it another way, everything
25 that we deemed was part of your requirement here.
26 153 Q. Yes. What I am concerned about?
27 A. Yes.
28 154 Q. Is that we have no correspondence that
29 Stokes Kennedy Crowley may have had with
23
1 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust?
2 A. Sure.
3 155 Q. It would seem to me very likely that such
4 correspondence must have taken place?
5 A. Well, you know, it may be. I don't know.
6 156 Q. Yes?
7 A. Yes.
8 157 Q. I take it Mr. McCann you can make enquiries?
9 A. Absolutely.
10 158 Q. Yes?
11 A. Yes.
12 159 Q. This is the only document then (Exhibit 2)?
13 A. Yes.
14 160 Q. That you have been given by Stokes Kennedy Crowley
15 that they have been able to find in relation to a
16 possible trust?
17 A. Sure.
18 161 Q. Yes?
19 A. I believe that is absolutely correct.
20 162 Q. It appears to be your address on the top of it?
21 A. Sure.
22 163 Q. It is not a Stokes Kennedy Crowley letter?
23 A. Right.
24 164 Q. It is in their possession?
25 A. Yes.
26 165 Q. Did you keep any correspondence in your home in
27 relation to your financial matters?
28 A. I think not really. I mean from time to time I
29 would have stuff at home and that. I might have
24
1 some old diaries and that but no.
2 166 Q. Did you?
3 A. No, the answer is no.
4 167 Q. If a trust or something like that had been created,
5 in which you personally were involved, you would not
6 have kept the documents? You would have left them
7 with your accountant. The accountant would have
8 dealt with them?
9 A. Well, no. I kept fairly good files in the office.
10 168 Q. Yes?
11 A. Now, they mightn't be very sophisticated but I would
12 have kept most important things.
13 169 Q. Yes. Your own personal affairs?
14 A. Yes.
15 170 Q. Have you looked...(INTERJECTION)?
16 A. I have always -- sorry?
17 171 Q. Sorry?
18 A. I was going to say I have always -- I have had the
19 benefit for over 30 years of having a qualified
20 person's service available to manage the things.
21 172 Q. Have you looked in your own personal files?
22 A. Absolutely, I have been through files up and down.
23 173 Q. Have you any files going back to the period, to the
24 early 1970s?
25 A. There are bits and pieces of things but there is
26 certainly nothing with this thing here.
27 174 Q. Yes.
28 A. And, you know, while there might have been so many
29 things happening at various stages, you know, with
25
1 acquisitions of companies and developing and so on,
2 that I wouldn't remember a connection with the
3 company.
4 175 Q. Yes?
5 A. But the idea of setting up anything apart from
6 The Bank Of Ireland trusts, you know, on the local,
7 on the Irish, scene, I -- okay, you can't remember
8 so many things but I think I would remember that to
9 do with the family.
10 176 Q. The Bank of Ireland set up trusts for you?
11 A. Yes.
12 177 Q. Were these discretionary trusts?
13 A. Yes.
14 178 Q. You were familiar with the concept of discretionary
15 trusts?
16 A. Yes.
17 179 Q. Yes?
18 A. I wasn't familiar with all the different companies
19 they have on the chart coming down.
20 180 Q. Yes?
21 A. But I was... (INTERJECTION) .
22 181 Q. However, you were familiar with the concept of
23 discretionary trust, that the trustees have a
24 discretion?
25 A. Sure.
26 182 Q. To give the benefit?
27 A. Yes.
28 183 Q. That they are in?
29 A. Yes.
26
1 184 Q. The funds in the trust to a group of people?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 185 Q. And have a discretion?
4 A. Yes.
5 186 Q. Are you familiar with the concept of a letter of
6 wishes?
7 A. Yes.
8 187 Q. That the Settlor?
9 A. Yes.
10 188 Q. Would give a letter of wishes?
11 A. Yes.
12 189 Q. And that in the normal course of events the Settlor
13 would expect the trustees to comply with the Letter
14 of Wishes?
15 A. Absolutely, yes.
16 190 Q. You are familiar with that concept?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 191 Q. Would you just take the letter for a moment here.
19 Do you see that it is addressed to the Directors of
20 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited, with an address
21 in the West Indies?
22 A. Yes.
23 192 Q. Did you know about Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust?
24 A. No, I wasn't familiar with that at all.
25 193 Q. Perhaps I did not put the question properly or
26 fairly to you, because you did become familiar with
27 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited, did you not, in
28 relation to the scheme with Paris Investment?
29 A. Well, I should say clearly -- going back to those
27
1 years, and trying to go back to those years in my
2 mind, I had no knowledge of Guinness Mahon Cayman
3 Trust. I had no knowledge of the detail of what was
4 to be done. I knew we were doing something in
5 Bermuda and afterwards something in Cayman but I had
6 no -- I wouldn't have known the refinement of
7 Guinness Mahon Cayman or whatever the different
8 names of that company was.
9 194 Q. Did you not know, in fact you told us in your
10 statement, that Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited
11 owned the shares in Paris Investment's?
12 A. May I look at this?
13 195 Q. Sure, yes. If you look at page 4 of your statement?
14 Have you got page 4 of your statement (Exhibit 1)?
15 A. Yes .
16 196 Q. Yes. Do you see Fruit Importers...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. On this, yes, sorry.
18 197 Q. Do you see Fruit Importers of Ireland Limited? You
19 see the second paragraph:
20 "The company held the shares in Paris

Investments Limited in trust for the
21 shareholders of FII"?
22
23 A. Yes, the company.
24 198 Q. Is that right?
25 A. Yes, I follow.
26 199 Q. What I am pointing out to you Mr. McCann is that you
27 must have been aware of the existence of this Cayman
28 company, Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited?
29 A. I am sorry I think where I am confused is that I
28
1 notice I have a little chart here and I have a line
2 from FII, you know, down to Paris, and then I have
3 Cayman marked outside here as
4 being...(INTERJECTION).
5 200 Q. Look...(INTERJECTION)?
6 A. Of the Cayman company, yes.
7 201 Q. Yes. If you look at the very beginning? Turn to
8 the very first page of your letter?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 202 Q.
"As requested I set out below a
11 statement of all of my dealings whether
direct or indirect with Ansbacher
12 (Cayman) Limited formerly known as
Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited,
13 Ansbacher Limited and Cayman
International Bank and Trust
14 Company Limited (the Company)."
15
16 In your letter the company is referred to?
17 A. Referred to.
18 203 Q. As to what we have been calling "Ansbacher"?
19 A. Yes.
20 204 Q. Or in those days it was known as Guinness Mahon
21 Cayman Trust?
22 A. Right, yes. I think I have lost my way, Justice.
23 205 Q. What I am coming back to, if you come back to page 4
24 (Exhibit 1)?
25 A. Yes.
26 206 Q. Under "Fruit Importers Of Ireland Limited" it says:
27 "The company held the shares in Paris

Investments Limited in trust for the
28 shareholders of FII"?
29
29
1 A. Right.
2 207 Q. What I am asking you Mr. McCann is: Does it not
3 appear that you must have been aware of the
4 existence of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust at the time
5 that this tax planning was undertaken?
6 A. No, because my memory going back to all of this is
7 that I was not familiar with those things but I have
8 become familiar with them in the trawling that has
9 gone on.
10 208 Q. Yes?
11 A. But at that stage it was just very much a thing of
12 we were doing something with Bermuda and at a later
13 stage we were doing something with Cayman, and I
14 think the knowledge that it was Paris or whatever,
15 or IFS and what have you.
16 209 Q. Did you...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. That is recent for me.
18 210 Q. Yes?
19 A. Recent knowledge.
20 211 Q. Very well. However, when you say you were doing
21 something in Bermuda and doing something in Cayman?
22 A. Yes .
23 212 Q. Do you mean that you were moving funds there and
24 they were involved in the tax planning that was
25 being undertaken?
26 A. Yes, absolutely.
27 213 Q. Did you know that you were doing something in Cayman
28 with a subsidiary of Guinness & Mahon in Dublin?
29 A. It was something which Guinness & Mahon Dublin were
30
1 involved.
2 214 Q. Yes?
3 A. But as regards the details of it at that time I
4 didn't know.
5 215 Q. What do you mean that they were involved?
6 A. Well, they were either advising or helping to advise
7 maybe SKC.
8 216 Q. Did you not know that, in fact, you were
9 transferring funds or getting involved with a
10 company in the Cayman Islands?
11 A. Sure.
12 217 Q. Which was a subsidiary of Guinness Mahon in Ireland,
13 in Dublin?
14 A. Well, I am not so sure of that because I was sure of
15 the fact that SKC, in whom we had the utmost
16 confidence, and possibly to a lesser extent
17 Guinness Mahon, were helping to set up something.
18 218 Q. Yes?
19 A. To do with off shore business in...(INTERJECTION).
20 219 Q. In the Cayman?
21 A. In the Cayman.
22 220 Q. Yes?
23 A. Yes.
25 A. But beyond that I wouldn't have known a name or a
26 detail about it.
27 222 Q. You must have known the amounts of funds?
28 A. No.
29 223 Q. That were transferred, did you?
31
1 A. No.
2 224 Q. You did not?
3 A. I imagine at some stage as the cash, you know, would
4 have come through, or as things would have come
5 through, there might have been information passing
6 through the FII company accounts. There would have
7 been something there for me to see but none of that
8 registers.
9 225 Q. Now, is that it?
10 A. It registers now because I have been through it all.
11 226 Q. Yes. However, you had forgotten, until this was
12 brought to your memory you had forgotten?
13 A. Yes. I mean it was quite a shock that this came in.
14 227 Q. Very good. Yes. Let us look at this in some
15 detail?
16 A. Yes.
17 228 Q. It is a letter addressed to the company in Cayman?
18 A. I am sorry. Yes, yes, sorry, yes.
19 229 Q. You say that you now know about the Guinness Mahon
20 Cayman Trust Limited. Does it not appear that if
21 you wrote the letter, this letter, that you would
22 have then known the address or alternatively that
23 this letter was drafted by someone for your
24 signature, and that the person who drafted it would
25 have known the address?
26 A. Justice, can I say to you very clearly.
27 230 Q. Yes?
28 A. This letter is absolutely news to me, from the day
29 it came back from the files of SKC.
32
1 231 Q. Yes?
2 A. And nothing that I have been told since helps to
3 make me think otherwise.
4 232 Q. Let us just look at the terms of the letter (Exhibit
5 2) ?
6 A. Yes.
7 233 Q. It reads:
8 "I refer to a Deed of Settlement dated

31st March, 1972, whereby John Andrew
9 Furze appointed Guinness and Mahon
Cayman Trust Limited as Trustees of a
10 Settlement for the benefit of the
issue of the late Charles McCann
11 and Rosetta McCann."
12
13 They are your father and mother?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 234 Q. It refers to a Deed of Settlement of the 31st March?
16 A. Yes.
17 235 Q. Have you made enquiries about this?
18 A. Absolutely, and I have spoken particularly to the
19 people at SKC and the view -- there is a view there
20 that Mr. Mooney would say he vaguely remembers
21 something about that but he says if he did and if
22 there was such a thing being mooted it never was
23 implemented.
24 236 Q. Mr. Mooney?
25 A. Mr. Mooney.
26 237 Q. Mr. Mooney is Sean Mooney, is that right?
27 A. Mr. Sean Mooney.
28 238 Q. You have mentioned?
29 A. The taxation partner.
33
1 239 Q. Was he in the firm in 1972?
2 A. He must have been, yes.
3 240 Q. Yes. What about Mr. Alex Spain?
4 A. Alex Spain was very much involved. I see from the
5 correspondence was very much involved early on but I
6 think after that he kind of went off the scene.
7 241 Q. Did you ask him did he remember anything about this?
8 A. Well, when I saw Alex Spain I hadn't seen this.
9 242 Q. So you have not asked him since?
10 A. No.
11 243 Q. Yes?
12 A. But he said to me at that stage, "Look, I can
13 remember nothing about what went on at the time."
14 244 Q. Yes?
15 A. "I do know we set up trusts," he said, "in Bermuda
16 and Cayman until they were no longer legal or
17 legitimate."
18 245 Q. He told he that they did set up trusts?
19 A. This was for, yes, in accordance with that letter.
20 You know the letter that came in recently to you,
21 the most recent letter?
22 246 Q. Mr. Spain told you that he had set up trusts until
23 they became illegal?
24 A. I am sorry I put it the wrong way. He set up
25 companies in Cayman, in Bermuda and Cayman.
26 247 Q. You have not shown him this letter (Exhibit 2)?
27 A. No.
28 248 Q. Have you shown this to Don Reid, this letter?
29 A. Yes.
34
1 249 Q. Does he remember it?
2 A. No.
3 250 Q. Yes?
4 A. And I had certainly a very serious discussion with
5 Mr. Mooney and he is the only one that says that it
6 is any way familiar to him but...(INTERJECTION).
7 251 Q. You see I should explain to you Mr. McCann, you may
8 not know it, but what is said in this letter?
9 A. Yes.
10 252 Q. Has been, on the information we have got, quite a
11 common way of setting up trusts?
12 A. Sure.
13 253 Q. Which Stokes Kennedy Crowley were engaged in at this
14 stage?
15 A. Right.
16 254 Q. It seems to mirror exactly what they did in other
17 cases that we have come across?
18 A. Sure, I hear you.
19 255 Q. What I am wondering is who could help us if your
20 memory is such that you do not remember this?
21 A. Right.
22 256 Q. Who could help us? You think Mr. Mooney could
23 help us?
24 A. I think Mr. Mooney could help.
25 257 Q. Do you think Mr. Spain could help us?
26 A. Yes, but I believe absolutely -- I believe that no
27 trust of any kind of that nature was formed or that
28 anything came into it or out of it.
29 258 Q. Yes?
35
1 A. And I don't think, there is a few things to do with
2 the family.
3 259 Q. Yes?
4 A. That I could be mistaken in that.
5 260 Q. If we just look at the letter (Exhibit 2)? It goes
6 on:
7 "In their capacity as Trustees,

Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust Limited,
8 through their nominees own the entire
issued share capital of Blue Limited"?
9
10 A. Yes .
11 261 Q. The letter goes on then:
12 "I hereby authorise you to transfer at

par to Neil Collins or his nominee the
13 entire issued share capital of
Blue Limited."
14
15 A. Yes .
16 262 Q. Do you know who Neil Collins?
17 A. I know Neil Collins, yes.
18 263 Q. Who is he?
19 A. Neil Collins is -- well, he is an individual in
20 Cork, a businessman in Cork, who was very active in
21 business some years ago.
22 264 Q. Yes?
23 A. The reason why his name is perhaps -- well, wait
24 until we see Neil Collins -- any involvement I had
25 was at some stage I had a share in a property in
26 Dundalk in partnership with two other people and I
27 opted out of it and my shares -- I was paid for my
28 shares and I understood afterwards -- I had never
29 spoken to him about that but I understood afterwards
36
1 that Mr. Collins took my place as the shareholder,
2 or partner, or whatever in that property company.
3 265 Q. Yes?
4 A. But I didn't have any dealings with him and my
5 dealings were purely with the two other
6 shareholders.
7 266 Q. How is that relevant to this letter?
8 A. Because you asked me about Neil Collins.
9 267 Q. Yes?
10 A. And the association.
11 268 Q. Yes?
12 A. And that is the only time I knew anything about
13 Neil Collins.
14 269 Q. How would you be authorising the transfer of shares
15 to Neil Collins?
16 A. I don't believe I did anything of the sort. As to
17 whether you want me to speculate I could say well If
18 Collins replaced me...(INTERJECTION)?
19 270 Q. No. I do not want you to speculate, Mr. McCann?
20 A. No, but that... (INTERJECTION) .
21 271 Q. Because what I understand is that you have no
22 recollection of this?
23 A. No, no.
24 272 Q. I am just wondering however this letter was written,
25 how it came about that you were authorising the
26 transfer of the shares to Neil Collins?
27 A. I don't believe that I did.
28 273 Q. Is there any other Neil Collins that this could be?
29 A. No, no. I am quite sure that is the person and this
37
1 may have been intended to be done in some way or
2 another but certainly I have no recollection
3 whatever of this authorisation.
4 274 Q. Yes. Perhaps, you might tell me about this
5 arrangement with Mr. Collins? Did you knew him
6 personally?
7 A. No, I heard of him. I met him once afterwards I
8 think, again only "Hello, nice day".
9 275 Q. You had no -- you had no...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. I knew he was.
11 276 Q. You knew who he was?
12 A. Yes.
13 277 Q. He was a Cork businessman?
14 A. And he was pretty well known.
15 278 Q. You must have been very surprised when you saw this
16 letter?
17 A. In the last few weeks, my Lord?
18 279 Q. Yes?
19 A. I was very surprised.
20 280 Q. When did you see this letter for the first time?
21 A. Well, it is since the trawl started.
22 281 Q. Yes?
23 A. So, it has to have been in the last four weeks or
24 so.
25 282 Q. Since you got our letter?
26 A. Yes, yes.
27 283 Q. In December?
28 A. Yes, absolutely, as a result of.
29 284 Q. Yes. Did you contact Mr. Collins?
38
1 A. No, because I had no dealings with him.
2 285 Q. Just tell me, you have indicated to me that
3 Mr. Collins may have taken your place as partner in
4 some business venture?
5 A. In Dundalk.
6 i Q.
2 36 In Dundalk?
7 A. Yes .
8 2 37
i Q. However, that is a very remote connection with
9 Mr. Collins, is it not?
10 A. Very remote.
11 288 Q. You would not have met him?
12 A. No.
13 i Q.
2 39 Did you know that there was a Mr. John Collins
14 who was Managing Director of Guinness Mahon
15 Cayman Trust Limited?
16 A. No.
17 290 Q. You did not know that?
18 A. No, no. I never heard of him. I didn't know any
19 people in this Cayman Trust.
20 291 Q. There is just one other matter I want to refer to in
21 this letter, the last paragraph goes on:
22
"I hereby authorise you to transfer at
23 par to Neil Collins or his nominee the
entire issued share capital of
24 Blue Limited."
25
26 Does that not indicate Mr. McCann, from the way in
27 which that is worded, that you had authority to tell
28 the Trustees to transfer?
29 A. Yes .
1 292 Q. To Mr. Collins the share capital?
2 A. It would appear to but, you know, I never saw that
3 letter.
4 293 Q. I understand?
5 A. Or that draft.
6 294 Q. Yes?
7 A. Or I don't know of anybody else who has.
8 295 Q. Yes?
9 A. I don't believe any of it happened.
10 296 Q. Yes. However, if you had authority it would
11 mean that the Trustees must have appointed, under
12 the Deed of Trust, the property in the trust to you
13 in order to give you...(INTERJECTION)?
14 A. If it was true.
15 297 Q. If it was true?
16 A. Yes.
17 298 Q. Very well. I want you to refer to page 64. It is
18 tab 15 (Exhibit 3) (Same Handed)?
19 A. Thank you.
20 299 Q. This is a record of resident and non-resident loans
21 of £5,000 and over, which has been obtained from the
22 records of Guinness & Mahon Ireland. You will see
23 on the left-hand side the customers and towards the
24 end, the fourth from the bottom:
25 "Fruit Importers of Ireland Limited."
26
27 Do you see that?
28 A. Yes.
29 300 Q. Do you see that it shows the present balance
40
1 of £225,844?
2 A. Yes.
3 301 Q. Do you see under the column headed "Comments"
4 "Suitably secured."
6 Do you see that?
7 A. I do.
8 302 Q. Are you familiar Mr. McCann with the concept of cash
9 backed loans?
10 A. I am sorry Justice, am I familiar with the
11 concept of?
12 303 Q. The concept of cash backed loans?
13 A. Cash backed loans? Yes, I think so, yes.
14 304 Q. That the loan would be given in this case by the
15 bank and they would use as security a deposit?
16 A. Sure.
17 305 Q. For the same amount of the loan in fact?
18 A. Right.
19 306 Q. You are familiar with that?
20 A. Yeah, I am familiar with that, yes.
21 307 Q. I must inform you Mr. McCann that our information is
22 that where Guinness & Mahon Ireland refer to a
23 suitably secured loan that they mean a loan which is
24 cash backed by a deposit?
25 A. Yes.
26 308 Q. It would appear therefore that your company had a
27 very substantial loan or overdraft, it is not clear
28 which, and that it was secured by a deposit with the
29 company, is that not so?
41
1 A. Well, I read it here.
2 309 Q. You read it there?
3 A. But... (INTERJECTION) .
4 310 Q. Yes. I take it that you have no recollection of it?
5 A. No.
6 311 Q. Do you see again it is your information that people
7 who had established trusts were enabled to use the
8 deposit in Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, which that
9 Cayman company had in Guinness & Mahon in Ireland,
10 as a security. You see that in the letter?
11 A. Yes. I am sorry Judge am I missing something? I do
12 not see -- is there a date.
13 312 Q. The date, the repayment date, is the best we can
14 give?
15 A. Yes, March 1973.
16 313 Q. 31st March 1973?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 314 Q. There is a very substantial deposit apparently being
19 used to secure that loan?
20 A. Yes.
21 315 Q. Have you any explanation for...(INTERJECTION)?
22 A. Well, I just am not familiar with it.
23 316 Q. You are not familiar with it?
24 A. No.
25 317 Q. Perhaps you might try to see?
26 A. Yes.
27 318 Q. If you can get any information about it?
28 A. If I may take a copy?
29 319 Q. You may take it, yes. We have kept out the other
42
1 information?
2 A. Okay.
3 320 Q. Of other people in other companies?
4 A. So, we will pursue that one.
5 321 Q. If you can pursue that one, yes?
6 A. Yes .
7 322 Q. We also have information that there was a
8 management report in the 1974 to the effect
9 that there was a suitably secured loan to your
10 company of £96,000. That is in the management
11 report of 31st October 1974. Can you see if
12 you can get any information on that?
13 A. I will. I would be very happy to, Justice.
14 323 Q. Mr. McCann, we do take a coffee break. I was just
15 wondering if this would be a suitable time for a
16 coffee break?
17 A. That is a very nice idea.
18 324 Q. Very well then. We will say about ten minutes or
19 so?
20 A. Yes .
21
23
24 A. Apologies Judge.
25 325 Q. No, that is fine Mr. McCann. We will continue then
26 Mr. McCann?
27 A. Yes .
28 326 Q. I was just asking you about your relations with
29 Mr. Collins?
1 A. Yes.
2 327 Q. The people that you had the arrangement with or you
3 were in business with in Dundalk; what were their
4 names, Mr. McCann?
5 A. Alex Spain was one.
6 328 Q. Yes?
7 A. And Philip Monahan was another.
8 329 Q. Yes. Was your place taken in that by Mr. Collins?
9 A. I believe so.
10 330 Q. You believe so?
11 A. Yes.
12 331 Q. Was that a property development or what was it?
13 A. It was a property development. There had been, you
14 know, bits of property involved in the thing and a
15 particular development they were going to do and I
16 didn't feel comfortable and I said that I would like
17 to opt out.
18 332 Q. Yes?
19 A. And they produced.
20 333 Q. Mr. Collins?
21 A. Yes, I believe.
22 334 Q. Yes. Would you have any objection to our writing to
23 Mr. Collins to get his evidence in this connection?
24 A. Absolutely not.
25 335 Q. Very well. I want to deal with another matter now
26 about Fruit Importers of Ireland Limited?
27 A. Yes.
28 336 Q. It appears that Fruit Importers of Ireland Limited
29 had a deposit in Cayman, in Guinness Mahon Cayman
44
1 Trust?
2 A. I am not sure where we are, Judge.
3 337 Q. I think it may refresh your memory if we turn to
4 page 48, the telex to Mr. Keane. Have you got the
5 telex of the 14th October 1977 (Same Handed)?
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 338 Q. You knew Mr. Martin Keane?
8 A. Yes.
9 339 Q. Would you have dealings with him?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 340 Q. You never met Mr. John Furze?
12 A. No.
13 341 Q. Did you know of Mr. Furze's existence until
14 the recent developments that have been in the
15 public domain?
16 A. No.
18 A. No.
19 343 Q. You have seen this telex I take it (Exhibit 4)?
20 A. Yes.
21 344 Q. Does it not appear from that that FII had a deposit
22 of $29,927?
23 A. Yes, it appears that way.
24 345 Q. Have you any recollection of this?
25 A. No.
26 346 Q. You have not?
27 A. No.
28 347 Q. You have read this document?
29 A. Yes.
45
1 348 Q. It dose appear that this was an instruction, was it
2 not, given my Mr. Furze on behalf of the Guinness
3 Mahon Cayman Trust which had an account in Dublin,
4 and out of this sum, this FII deposit, you were to
5 be paid two drafts?
6 A. I mean since I saw this I mean I have racked my
7 brains. I have looked through old diaries. I have
8 looked through everywhere in my own files and just
9 -- it bugs me. There is nothing I can recall about
10 this and as I said I know Martin Keane. I never
11 heard of the other man and none of this rings any
12 bells, just nothing.
13 349 Q. Is it not clear that you are receiving from the
14 account of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust in
15 Guinness & Mahon in Dublin this sum of money?
16 A. Well, its certainly -- the internal memo is there
17 and it appears from that that there was an
18 arrangement to do that but I can't throw any light
19 on it Judge and as I said...(INTERJECTION).
20 350 Q. We have, and I will show you, the sundary
21 sub-company account and it is a bad photostat but
22 you will able to make out the -- (Exhibit 5)(Same
23 Handed)?
24 A. Yes. Thank you.
25 351 Q. If you see the payment to Fruit Importers of this
26 figure of £2,166?
27 A. Yes.
28 352 Q. You will then see on the right-hand side the balance
29 that was left and now unfortunately the photostat
46
1 has not come out in relation to the figure that
2 shows the balance on the right-hand side, there
3 is £33,000 and the other balance. However, the
4 arithmetic of the situation shows that the balance
5 that was left amounts to the figure, that is
6 referred to in this Telex, of £14,655?
7 A. Yes.
8 353 Q. What I am indicating to you is that the money came
9 out?
10 A. Right.
11 354 Q. Of the account?
12 A. Right.
13 355 Q. That Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited had in
14 Dublin, have you any doubt about this?
15 A. Well, I mean that looks fairly strong.
16 356 Q. Yes. Well...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. I can't see the date of the money coming out.
18 357 Q. No, the photostat is very bad. I agree with you
19 Mr. McCann it is very hard to make it out?
20 A. I see the date now.
21 358 Q. However, the date is there. It is 1977?
22 A. It is October.
23 359 Q. It is 13th October 1977?
24 A. Yes. This one here is -- yes, yes, yes. I just
25 have, you know -- I have no memory of it.
26 360 Q. Yes. Let us assume that the record shows this
27 payment?
28 A. Sure.
29 361 Q. Can you explain how you came to be paid money which
47
1 apparently was on deposit in the name of FAI in
2 Cayman Islands?
3 A. Well, I mean if I am speculating, you know, perhaps
4 -- I just don't know.
5 362 Q. Very well.
6 A. I don't know.
7 363 Q. I want now to turn to The International Fruit Agents
8 Limited?
9 A. Right, Judge.
10 364 Q. If you would like to look at your statement to
11 refresh your memory on it?
12 A. Yes.
13 365 Q. It was incorporated in the year ending the
14 31st October 1972?
15 A. Yes.
16 366 Q. It is listed as a subsidiary of FII in its accounts,
17 is that not right?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 367 Q. The documents, which I will put to you in a moment,
20 show that its address was C/O Guinness Mahon
21 Cayman Trust. Did you know that?
22 A. No.
23 368 Q. You tell us that it was sold in March 1974 to a
24 company called Montagu Insurance Company. Would
25 you just look at this, it is Exhibit 5 of your
26 documents (Same Handed)?
27 A. Right. You are very good. Thank you very much.
28 Yes.
29 369 Q. You see this is dated 24th March 1974. It is
48
1 between Fruit Importers Of Ireland Limited
2 and Montagu Insurance Limited of an address in
3 Grand Cayman?
4 A. Yes .
5 370 Q. It is an agreement by which FII agreed to
6 sell the equity in a firm called International Fruit
7 Agents Limited, 100 ordinary shares and the price
8 was apparently £110,800?
9 A. Yes .
10 371 Q. FII sold its shareholding in the company to
11 Montagu Insurance Limited by that document, is that
12 not so?
13 A. Yes .
14 372 Q. I want you to refer now to the documents on
15 pages 38 to 41 of our file. Ms. Cummins, they
16 are new accounts being opened (Exhibit 1)(Same
17 Handed)?
18 A. Thank you.
19 373 Q. Have you got these?
20 A. Yes .
21 374 Q. International -- it is slightly not quite in order
22 in my copy but let us look at what it is?
23 A. Yes .
24 375 Q. It is an authorisation to open a new account. The
25 name is International Fruit Agents and the address
26 is C/O GMCT, which is Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust?
27 A. Yes .
28 376 Q. The address of the International Fruit Agents is
29 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust. It is a fixed deposit.

1 The number of the account is hard to make out but it
2 is up there on the right-hand side?
3 A. Yes .
4 377 Q. It is in French Francs I think. It is from the
5 French Francs Ledger?
6 A. Yes .
7 378 Q. Would you turn over the next page?
8 A. Yes .
9 379 Q. It is again an authorisation to open a deposit
10 account. It is the 4th October 1978?
11 A. Yes .
12 380 Q. It is the International Fruit Agents Limited. The
13 account number is given and the amount of the
14 deposit is given in French Francs. It is nearly one
15 million French Francs?
16 A. Right.
17 381 Q. The next document is another authorisation to open
18 Deposit Account. The name of the company we have
19 mentioned. The address is C/O Guinness Mahon and it
20 is -- the amount of the deposit is half a million
21 French Francs?
22 A. Yes .
23 382 Q. The last document, that I want to refer to you, is
24 dated earlier. It is International Fruit Agents.
25 It is external fixed deposits in French Francs and
26 it is 23rd November 1976?
27 A. Yes .
28 383 Q. It shows, in fact, the balance there of French
29 Francs and apparently it was reduced to a small
50
1 amount. I want to refer you now to your own
2 statement. See at page five of your own statement,
3 it is a continuation of the paragraph, which on the
4 previous paragraph refers to International Fruit
5 Agents Limited?
6 A. Sorry, yes, International Fruit Agents Limited on
7 page 4.
8 384 Q. Yes?
9 A. On the top of page five.
10 385 Q. I am on top of page 5 now. Look at the last
11 sentence in the paragraph?
12 A. Yes.
13 386 Q. It reads:
14 "I believe that..."
15
16 It is the second last sentence:
17 "I believe that FII was the beneficial

owner of the funds in these bank
18 accounts."
19
20 These bank accounts are referred to in the earlier
21 sentence:
22 "Notwithstanding the said sale it

appears that non-resident bank accounts
23 were maintained with the Bank in the
name of International Fruit Agents
24 from October 1976 to approximately
October 1980."
25
26 A. Yes.
27 387 Q. I want you to tell us how it came about that FII was
28 the beneficial owner of the funds in these bank
29 accounts?
51
1 A. This is the company FIA that had been sold.
2 388 Q. Yes .
3 A. And then this happened.
4 389 Q. Yes?
5 A. Yes, I think -- I believe that this, you know -- it
6 puzzles us.
7 390 Q. Yes?
8 A. And I don't understand why or how IFA, you know,
9 continued, or the name would have ever continued,
10 after the thing had been sold and I think it just
11 looks -- it looks a mess from that period 1976 until
12 it was...(INTERJECTION).
13 391 Q. However, surely Mr. McCann just to say it looks a
14 mess isn't a proper explanation?
15 A. Sorry.
16 392 Q. For the situation?
17 A. Sorry.
18 393 Q. If you say and in your statement say they were
19 beneficially owned, how did FII beneficially own the
20 monies in these accounts?
21 A. I understand that, your know, the particular -- but
22 again this is not first-hand but I understand that
23 Ms. Spain dealing with that particular business was
24 absolutely aware of what monies were due to FII that
25 had not been transferred and eventually all of those
26 monies were transferred back into FII in Dublin.
27 394 Q. However, Mr. McCann if the documents reflect the
28 true situation?
29 A. Yes .
52
1 395 Q. All the shares were sold and FII no longer had any
2 interest in this company?
3 A. Sure.
4 396 Q. What I want to know is why you say in your statement
5 that your company beneficially owned these sums in
6 the account?
7 A. I ... (INTERJECTION) .
8 397 Q. Yes?
9 A. Sorry, I was going to say I just don't understand.
10 398 Q. You do not understand?
11 A. Yes.
12 399 Q. I see?
13 A. May I consult for a moment?
14 400 Q. Yes, yes?
15 MR. O'KEEFFE: Can we step outside the door?
16 A. Yes, of course, yes.
17
19
20 A. Judge, I am sorry but...(INTERJECTION).
21 401 Q. No, I am sorry for rushing you, Mr. McCann?
22 A. No, you are not.
23 402 Q. What I wanted to suggest was if there are matters
24 that you want to clarify later on you can do it by
25 letter to us, if necessary?
26 A. Sure.
27 403 Q. I just want to get your statement today as to what
28 you recollect. You see what I want you to clarify
29 what you have stated in your statement to us?
53
1 A. Sure.
2 404 Q. That your company was the beneficial owner of it?
3 A. Right.
4 405 Q. That is what I want to clarify?
5 A. Well, now as I understand and please bear with me
6 because I am not familiar with the original
7 transactions.
8 406 Q. Yes?
9 A. But I have been through all of this but I just may
10 not have taken it all on board.
11 407 Q. Yes?
12 A. Anyway just to say that the company was sold
13 to Montagu.
14 408 Q. Can I just stop you there. Do you know who Montagu
15 were?
16 A. No, just the buyer but who they were or anything
17 about them I don't know.
18 409 Q. It might have been a shelf company?
19 A. It may have been.
20 410 Q. Yes?
21 A. I just... (INTERJECTION) .
22 411 Q. Very well?
23 A. I don't know but the consideration went back to
24 Dublin, I think was shown in the accounts.
25 412 Q. Yes?
26 A. And, you know, clearly was dealt with.
27 413 Q. Yes?
28 A. And then after that this other cash started to come
29 through and was lodged and I think the first one or
54
1 two documents show, you know, lodgement to
2 International Fruit Agents Limited, you know. Is it
3 an explanation? I don't think so. International
4 Fruit Agents but not International Fruit Agents
5 Limited and some of the later ones I think have
6 Limited.
7 414 Q. Yes?
8 A. But whether that was a mistake or deliberate but
9 none of it explains the fact that this International
10 Fruit Agents had been disposed of.
11 415 Q. Yes?
12 A. And the funds had gone bank into the company at
13 home, our Irish company, and the re-appearance of
14 this is obviously irregular and I don't have an
15 explanation.
16 416 Q. Very well. I just want to refer you to another
17 document. That document now is page 52, Ms. Cummins
18 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 4)?
19 A. Thank you.
20 417 Q. This is a document, it is an internal memorandum of
21 Guinness & Mahon and the upper photostat is bad but
22 the lower photostat is clearer?
23 A. Sure.
24 418 Q. It is a "Changes In Static Data." This is a banking
25 term, as I understand it, which is just merely a
26 note saying any changes in the data in the account
27 are noted on these pieces of paper?
28 A. Yes.
29 419 Q. However, what I want to draw your attention to is
55
1 this: It is the 23rd November 1976. Do you see
2 that?
3 A. Yes.
4 420 Q. It says:
5 "International Fruit Agents Limited."
7 Do you see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 421 Q. Then it says:
10 "NR"
11
12 which is non-resident?
13 A. Yes.
14 422 Q. Then:
15 "Fixed DA"
16
17 that is deposit account?
18 A. Yes.
19 423 Q.
"Jersey & with GMCT"?
20
21 A. Yes.
22 424 Q. The very difficult photostat to read above that?
23 A. Yes, but...(INTERJECTION).
24 425 Q. Also show Guinness & Mahon. It is a "Changes In
25 Static Data"?
26 A. Yes.
27 426 Q. It seems to be the 25th November?
28 A. Yes.
29 427 Q. And it refers to the company's name:
56
"Fruit Agents,"
2
3 that comes out all right. However then it says:
4 "Jersey Islands Ledger"?
6 A. Yes.
7 428 Q. Sorry, it is:
8 "Channel Islands Ledger"?
10 A. Yes.
11 429 Q. However, we need not bother about that one. The
12 bottom one is a record which shows that this company
13 International Fruit Agents Limited had a fixed
14 deposit account in the Jersey Islands, in Jersey?
15 A. I just don't have any fast answer for that, Judge.
16 430 Q. Yes?
17 A. If I might be permitted?
18 431 Q. Yes, do?
19 A. To search.
20 432 Q. Yes. You can consider it and I think unfortunately
21 we may have to ask you come back again or we can do
22 it by letter but you can consider it?
23 A. Yes.
24 433 Q. I want you to see what I am suggesting is that this
25 company which you said you beneficially owned the
26 accounts of?
27 A. Sure.
28 434 Q. Which were in Guinness & Mahon in Dublin also had
29 accounts in Jersey?
57
1 A. Sure.
2 435 Q. And that there is a subsidiary of Guinness & Mahon
3 in Jersey, there was a subsidiary of
4 Guinness & Mahon in Jersey, at the time, Guinness
5 Mahon Jersey Limited?
6 A. Yes.
7 436 Q. You know nothing about this?
8 A. I know nothing about the whole of this.
9 437 Q. Just in that connection I want to put another letter
10 to you. It is page 56 (Exhibit 7)(Same Handed)?
11 A. Yes.
12 438 Q. This is a very long letter. There is confidential
13 information in this letter and I know you will treat
14 it as confidential?
15 A. Sure.
16 439 Q. I am only referring it to you because of one part in
17 it which I will draw your attention to?
18 A. Yes.
19 440 Q. I will just tell you what the letter is. It is
20 dated 16th October 1987. It is a letter from the
21 English Guinness & Mahon company?
22 A. Yes.
23 441 Q. Which was the parent company of Guinness & Mahon
24 Ireland?
25 A. Yes.
26 442 Q. It is addressed to Mr. Pender in Guinness & Mahon
27 Limited in Dublin. Do you see that?
28 A. Yes, I do.
29 443 Q. It is about College Trustees. Do you see that
58
1 "College Trustees"?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 444 Q. If I may just pause there?
4 A. Yes .
5 445 Q. Have you heard of College Trustees?
6 A. Yes, but only since.
7 446 Q. Since this has started?
8 A. Yes .
9 447 Q. College Trustees, I think you know, is a company.
10 It is a subsidiary of the Guinness & Mahon group of
11 companies. It was then. It was originally a
12 subsidiary of Guinness & Mahon in Ireland. What
13 this letter is: Is a discussion about the sale of
14 College Trustees?
15 A. Yes .
16 448 Q. Which, in fact, did take place later on?
17 A. Yes .
18 449 Q. I am only drawing your attention to this letter for
19 this purpose: The writer of this letter is
20 discussing the various circumstances that could
21 arise in respect of the sale of College Trustees?
22 A. Yes .
23 450 Q. He discusses on the second page the clients of
24 College Trustees,
25 "...which may have a loyalty..."
26
27 he says,
28 "to Guinness & Mahon specifically or

the Guinness & Mahon group generally."
29
1 He sets out the number of the trusts?
2 A. Yes .
3 451 Q. Which College Trustees managed and then he sets out
4 the companies which they managed. If you would turn
5 over the page you will see "trusts" and then
6 "companies"?
7 A. All right.
8 452 Q. You will see half way...(INTERJECTION)?
9 A. Yes, sorry, I have it here.
10 453 Q. Have you got it there?
11 A. Yes .
12 454 Q. You will see half way -- do you see the list that is
13 headed "companies"?
14 A. Yes .
15 455 Q.
"International Fruit Limited"?
16
17 A. Yes .
18 456 Q. What I am pointing out to you Mr. McCann is that
19 International Fruit Limited was in 1987 a company
20 which was a client of College Trustees?
21 A. Yes .
22 457 Q. And this lends support to the note that I referred
23 you to earlier that College Trustees -- that this
24 company had an account in the Jersey company of
25 Guinness & Mahon. You know nothing about it, is
26 that the position?
27 A. International Fruit Limited I don't.
28 458 Q. Yes?
29 A. But I do know I think at some stage that -- no, I

1 don't. I am sorry I was going to say Fyffes but
2 that is not as Fyffes.
3 459 Q. That is not Fyffes, no?
4 A. No, Fyffes had some relationship, a management
5 relationship, for a short while in...(INTERJECTION).
6 460 Q. I will give you a copy of this letter but I do think
7 we would have to keep the confidential information
8 out of it?
9 A. Yes.
10 461 Q. If that is all right with you, Mr. O'Keeffe?
11 MR. O'KEEFFE: Of course.
12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If you would like to look
13 at it?
14 MR. O'KEEFFE: Yes, Judge.
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And read it yourself.
16 MR. O'KEEFFE: We can look at it before
17 we leave.
18 462 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You can look at it before
19 you leave, yes.
20 Mr. McCann, we did receive documents yesterday from
21 your solicitor in relation to Paris Investments
22 Limited?
23 A. Yes.
24 4 63 Q. We have not had an opportunity to examine them
25 properly?
26 A. Fine.
27 464 Q. So it may be necessary to call you back when we have
28 had an examination of it?
29 A. Right.
61
1 465 Q. There may be other matters arising which we would
2 like your assistance on?
3 A. Yes.
4 466 Q. That is all I have to ask you at the moment.
5 Ms. Mackey would like to ask you a few questions
6 however?
7 A. Sure.
8 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. NEIL McCANN BY
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
62
1 MR. NEIL McCANN WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY
2 MS. MACKEY
4 4 67 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. McCann, just if we
5 could go back for a moment
6 to your statement?
7 A. Yes.
8 468 Q. Have you got it there?
9 A. Yes.
10 469 Q. If you would just turn to page 5 (Exhibit 1)?
11 A. Yes.
12 470 Q. Up at the top, it is a continuation of the part of
13 your statement that deals with International Fruit
14 Agents Limited, which began on the previous page?
15 A. Right.
16 471 Q. It is what we have just been talking about now,
17 International Fruit Agents' accounts in
18 Guinness & Mahon from 1976 to 1980?
19 A. Yes, at least I think...(INTERJECTION).
20 472 Q. It is what we were talking about earlier?
21 A. Yes, right.
22 473 Q. As I understand what you were saying to us earlier,
23 after International Fruit Agents had been sold money
24 continued to be transferred and was lodged into its
25 account there?
26 A. Sure.
27 474 Q. And you described it as a mess and so on?
28 A. Yes.
29 475 Q. However, I am just not totally clear and if I could
63
1 clarify it a little bit better I would be glad?
2 A. Right, I will try.
3 476 Q. Yes?
4 A. Yes.
5 477 Q. What exactly happened at that stage? An account in
6 the name of International Fruit Agents appears to
7 have been opened in Guinness & Mahon in 1976, is
8 that right?
9 A. It appears that way, yes.
10 478 Q. There was not one there dating from the time prior
11 to the sale, was there?
12 A. I don't think so.
13 479 Q. No, so this was opened. Into that account came what
14 monies exactly?
15 A. I have a note here if I may read it.
16 480 Q. Certainly?
17 A. Maybe it will be more helpful.
18 481 Q. Yes?
19 A. It just says:
20 "International Fruit Agents 1976 -

1980. We do not know or why --"
21
22 482 Q. Sorry, could I just interrupt you for a moment
23 Mr. McCann?
24 A. Yes.
25 483 Q. Did you prepare this note?
26 A. No, it is prepared by the people who have been, you
27 know, working, the professionals and the people
28 in-house and sorry...(INTERJECTION).
29 MR. MEGHEN: Not by us.
64
1 A. No, no. I am sorry it hasn't. This has been
2 prepared by the people in-house but it
3 is...(INTERJECTION).
4 4 84 Q. MS. MACKEY: In Fyffes?
5 A. In Fyffes.
6 485 Q. Who would have prepared it?
7 A. Mrs. Ghose in particular.
8 486 Q. What information would she have used in order to
9 prepare this?
10 A. Well, all the information that she would have had in
11 talking to people and looking through files and
12 talking to the professionals and so on.
13 487 Q. Very well. Okay.
14 A. So, anyway:
15 "We do not know or why this company

appears to come back into existence in
16 1976. We think that it was a name of
convenience used on a number of bank
17 accounts held with Guinness & Mahon in
Dublin.
18
Money was transferred to these accounts
19 by overstating the cost of fruit in the
books of FII.
20
The practice was discontinued in 1979
21 and all of the accumulated monies were
brought back into the P & L account in
22 1980 and were chargeable to tax.
23 We do not know who advised..."
24
25 If anybody I think they should be saying,
26
"...in relation to this structure.
27
We have supplied some bank statements
28 in connection with this period of
activity. The statements supplied
29 refer to Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust.
There were other accounts on which
65
1 there was no reference to Guinness &
Mahon Cayman Trust."
2
3 488 Q. If I could just stop you there Mr. McCann?
4 A. Yes.
5 489 Q. Then the money that was transferred into IFA came
6 from FII, is that correct?
7 A. I believe so.
8 4 90 Q. Right.
9 491 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Can you give us a copy of
10 that please Mr. McCann?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 4 92 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes.
13 A. I can give it to you afterwards because I have been
14 scribbling. I am not quite sure where -- I think I
15 need it back.
16 493 Q. So...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. I am sorry, Ms. Mackey.
18 494 Q. Yes. Is it on that basis then Mr. McCann that you
19 say that FII is the beneficial owner of the monies
20 in it?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 4 95 Q. When you say here in your statement:
23 "I believe that FII was the beneficial

owner"
24
25 do you believe that of your only knowledge or have
26 your researchers...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. No, I don't have my own knowledge of it. This is
28 just from enquiries.
29 496 Q. From your researchers?
66
1 A. And research.
2 497 Q. Yes. Very good. Moving on down to just two
3 paragraphs below that?
4 A. Yes.
5 498 Q. You set out how the funds in these bank accounts
6 were applied. Do you see that:
7 "I believe that all of the funds

transferred into these bank accounts
8 together with interest earned thereon
were applied (1)"?
9
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 499 Q. So (1) in the transfer of part of such funds to FII?
12 A. Yes.
13 500 Q. They went back to FII again?
14 A. Yes.
15 501 Q. And then in making payment to suppliers and thirdly:
16 "In making payments to personnel of

FII" .
17
18 What does that relate to?
19 A. I understand that that is payments perhaps of
20 bonuses to staff, gross without deduction of tax.
21 502 Q. Without deduction of tax?
22 A. Yes.
23 503 Q. Would that be to particular members of staff or
24 personnel?
25 A. Well, yes.
26 504 Q. Yes?
27 A. But I am not sure, I don't know who they were.
28 505 Q. Would it be a particular grade or level of staff?
29 A. No, it wouldn't be like that.
67
1 506 Q. No. Okay. Just two things in relation to what you
2 have told us. In regard to the Telex (Exhibit
3 4)that we looked at from John Furze to Martin Keane,
4 you remember the one about the withdrawal of the
5 money?
6 A. Yes .
7 507 Q. From FII deposit?
8 A. Yes .
9 508 Q. Have you enquired from Mr. Keane if he has any
10 knowledge or memory of this Telex?
11 A. I didn't speak to him.
12 509 Q. Yes?
13 A. But I understand that some of our people did.
14 510 Q. Right?
15 A. And I think he comments on what it was without
16 indicating any knowledge of the particular one.
17 511 Q. Yes?
18 A. But I think he said, "Yes, that is an in-house
19 internal memo," and I don't thing he had any
20 information to give us that helped us to identify
21 it.
22 512 Q. Right. That is very good. Then just one other
23 question: In relation to the drafts you are
24 satisfied, you say in your statement, that you did
25 not receive these for your personal use?
27 513 Q. Have you, this relates to 1977, checked your
28 personal bank accounts for 1977?
29 A. We have checked everything personal around that
68
1 period and, you know.
2 514 Q. Do you keep records of your personal bank accounts
3 going back that far?
4 A. Yes, and going back even ten years earlier.
5 515 Q. Right?
6 A. The personal records are fortunately, you know, very
7 complete.
8 516 Q. Yes. Very good. I have not any...(INTERJECTION).
9 A. Which is not -- sorry, which is not the case for
10 some of the companies things because of change of
11 location and one thing and another.
12 517 Q. I have not any further questions. Thank you
13 Mr. McCann.
14 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. NEIL McCANN BY MS. MACKEY
15
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20
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23
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28
29
69
1 MR. NEIL McCANN WAS EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY
4 518 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. McCann?
5 MR. O'KEEFFE: Judge, we handed in the
6 contents of the letter
7 that we wrote initially to KPMG, as they are now.
9 MR. O'KEEFE: We also handed in a copy
10 of the reply which we got.
12 MR. O'KEEFFE: And we have handed in a
13 letter that we sent to the
14 Cayman Islands Company's Office and again no reply.
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes?
16 A. And Judge just if I may ask you a question just for
17 guidance.
18 519 Q. Yes?
19 A. In the light now of, you know, the questions and
20 answers and the things that I have felt unduly vague
21 about, if there is something I feel or our people
22 feel when we discuss, you know, what has taken place
23 that there may be something, you know, that may be
24 helpful would you like us to put that on paper to
25 you if there is anything?
26 520 Q. Yes. Mr. McCann, we are investigating this
27 situation?
28 A. Yes.
29 521 Q. On behalf of The High Court?
70
1 A. Sure.
2 522 Q. All information that you can gave us that would
3 indicate what occurred?
4 A. Yes .
5 523 Q. In this situation we would require?
6 A. Yes .
7 524 Q. If there is any further information that you can
8 give us please do so?
9 A. Yes .
10 525 Q. You can send it on by letter to us?
11 A. Yes .
12 526 Q. And we can consider it?
13 A. Yes, and if I may just, you know, stress again, you
14 know -- I appreciate very much the courteous way you
15 are dealing with the inquiry and to say to you that
16 we at our end have involved three most senior people
17 and we will investigate everything that we can and
18 it is the intention to be absolutely open.
19 527 Q. Yes?
20 A. And the same instructions have been given to all
21 people in the organisation.
22 528 Q. Yes. Just a propos of that Mr. McCann: There have
23 been some cases that we have considered in which the
24 person that we were interviewing had, in fact, been
25 previously approached and given information by
26 Guinness & Mahon or sometimes from, in one or two
27 cases, the Cayman Islands. This did not happen in
28 your case? You got no information from anybody
29 about this investigation until our letter, is that

1 the position?
3 529 Q. Yes .
4 A. And we wrote to -- we wrote to the various -- to any
5 address we had about company registration and so on
6 in the Cayman and Bermuda and Ireland.
7 530 Q. Yes?
8 A. And we didn't get answers •
9 531 Q. Yes. Very well?
10 A. But we haven't been approached by anybody.
11 532 Q. Very well Mr. McCann.
12 MR. O'KEEFFE: Just Judge in relation to
13 the last question that you
14 raised?
15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes?
16 MR. O'KEEFE: I think that we might just
17 have to look into the
18 Telex matter, the Telex, to see if had we got a copy
19 of that before or after.
20 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: No, no.
21 It. . . (INTERJECTION) .
22 MR. MEGHEN: We had been sent a copy of
23 the Telex. I cannot
24 remember by whom.
25 MR. O'KEEFFE: Yes .
26 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: It does appear
27 Mr. O'Keeffe
28 that Guinness & Mahon had been asked to produce
29 certain records.
1 MR. O'KEEFFE: Yes.
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: And they felt that they
3 were obliged to ask their
4 clients.
6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: For permission.
8 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: To produce these records.
9 MR. O'KEEFFE: Yes, sure.
10 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That was one instance.
12 533 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I was wondering whether
13 that had happened in this
14 case?
15 A. I think so.
16 534 Q. Secondly, the report of the Authorized Officer was
17 made available to the representative of "Ansbacher"
18 here in Dublin and he has made portions of that
19 report available to some of the witnesses?
20 A. Yes.
21 535 Q. I just wanted to see whether that had happened.
22 Very well then. Thank you.
23 A. Thank you very much.
24
26
27
28
29
73
y-\ajs.va GXXKYIO^J
Miltown Grange
Castlebellingham
. Co. Louth
2 nd March 2000
m f *
Mr. Justice Declan Costello

Ms. Nomen Mackey
Mr. Paul Rowan BY nOTTRTPy
Office of fiie Inspectors
Third Floor
Trident House
Blacbrock
Co. Dublin
Dear Sirs & Madam,

I refer to your letter of 20* January.
As requested, I set out below a statement of all of my dealings whether direct or indirect with
Ansbacher (Cayman) limited formerly known as Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited,
Ansbacher Limited and Cayman International Bank and Trust Company Limited (the
Company). I have conducted or have had conducted on my behalf an extensive search of all
records in my custody or power or in the custody or power of Fyffes pic in relation to the
matters which are the subject of your letter. I have also made or caused to be made .enquiries
of persons whom I believed could be of assistance in enabling me to prepare this reply. The
enquiries made on my behalf included a letter of request to the Company [EX1] seeking any
information or records held by it however no response to this request has been received to
date.
Imakethis statement on the basis of such records and information as have been disclosed by
the searches referred to above, on the basis of such limited recollection as I have of the
relevant events and circumstances having regard to the passage of time and on the basis of the
documentation referred to herein and enclosed herewith.
For ease of reference I have divided nry response to the questions raised by you in Appendix
C into two parts. Part A deals with the personal affairs of myself and my wife including any
companies controlled by either or both of us and Part B deals with the affairs of Fyffes Pic (of
which I am Chairman), its subsidiaries from time to time and its predecessors.
PART A
I have been a long-standing client of Guinness & Mahon Limited (the Bank) where I
maintained and continue to maintain a small current account (my principal account being
mflintainftH with ABB). I started my relationship with the Bank during the 1971 bank strike.
From time to time I invested someftmds with the Bank in accounts which were at all times
designated "resident accounts".
Question (1)
I am advised and believe that I am entitled to answer this question in the negative because I
do not believe that I caused a Deed of Trust to be executed and transferred money or other
assets to such a trust. However, I attach afile copy of an undated letter which appears to.
have been sent by me to Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust limited [EX2]. This letter was
obtainedfrom thefiles of my advisors SKC, now known as KPMG, arising out of a search
conducted at my request for the purpose of enabling me to furnish this reply. This letter
constitutes the only documentation in my custody or power in relation to Guinness Mahon
Cayman Trust Limited and its possible involvement in nry personal affairs. I have no further
information or recollection on who may have advised in relation to the establishment of the
trust or as to whether it was ever actually established.
From this letter it would appear that on 31 March 1972,1 may have caused a settlement for
die benefit of the issue of my parents, the late Charles and Rosetta McCann, to be created by
John Andrew Furze who appointed Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust Limited as trustees.
Notwithstanding the reference to Mr.ftirze in the letter I have no recollection of ever having
heard of Mr. Furze until the public disclosure of his name in relation to the McCracken
Tribunal. I never met him.
The letter suggests that the trust, if established, may have owned the share capital of Blue
Limited. I recollect nothing about Blue Limited and have not been able to obtain any
information in relation to this company despite enquiries made on my behalf with the Registrar
of Companies in Grand Cayman [EX3] and searches conducted at the Companies Registration
Office in Dublin.
From the letter it would appear that the trust's interest in Blue Limited was disposed of.
However apartfrom the information supplied above I do not hawe any further or more detailed
responses to your questions 1(a) - to - 1(g) in relation to the foregoing events which occurred
almost thirty years ago. hi particular my recollection and that of my advisors at that time,
SKC, is that if the trust was ever put in place, I never settled any assets or transferred any cash
to such trust and that the trust was never used.
Question (2)
I did not avail of the service described.
Question (3)
Question (4)
Question (5)
Question (fi)
See reply at (1) above.
Qnestion(7)
Question (8)
See reply to (1) above.
PARTS
Fyffes pic is an Irish publicly quoted company of which I am currently a director and the
chairman. I control approximately 10% of Fyffes pic. Fyffes pic was incorporated in 1980
and acquired the fruit distribution business previously carried on by another Irish company
Fruit Importers of Ireland limited which was incorporated in 1968.
I set out below my responses to the specific questions raised dividing my response between
Fyffes pic and Fruit Importers of Ireland Limited
Fyffes pic
In all cases the response is given in relation to Fyffes pic and each of its subsidiary or
associated companies.
Question (1)
Fyffes pic did not avail of the service described.
Question (2)
Question (3)
Question (4)
Question (5)
Question (6)
Not applicable.
Question (7)
Question (9)
None.
Fruit Importers of Ireland Limited

In all cases the response is given in relation to Fruit Importers of Ireland Limited and each of
its subsidiary or associated companies ("EH"). This company ceased trading in 1980.
FII had dealings with two Cayman Island companies in the early 1970ies, namely Paris
Investments Limited and International Fruit Agents Limited which are dealt with in more detail
below. The Company held the shares in Paris Investments Limited in trust for the
shareholders of FII. Apart from this I am not aware of any connection between the Company
and these two companies at that time. In particular I do not know, whether these companies
or any of their assets were managed by the Company at that time and accordingly it is not clear
whether these companies are covered by theforms of your letter. .
Paris Investments Limited

A Cayman company called Paris Investments Limited (Paris) was established in 1972 and it
was referred to in the financial statements of Fruit Importers of Ireland Limitedfor that year.
I attach a copy of the saidfinancial statements in which reference to Paris appears on pages
5 and 8 [EX4]. Paris was established to acquire the share capital of two Bermudan
subsidiaries of FII, namely International Fruit Shippers Limited and Fruit Exporters Limited.
I believe it is likely that these companies were acquired at nominal cost by Paris from FQ.
During the year to 31* October 1972 International Fruit Shippers Limited, was acquired and
subsequently disposed of as a subsidiary and therefore was not listed as a subsidiary as at 31"
October 1972. I believe that these two companies were liquidated and the proceeds of
liquidation were used by Paris to subscribe for new shares in FII: Paris was subsequently
liquidated and the shares in FII were distributed in specie to the shareholders of FH..
As this transaction pre-dated the Corporation Tax Act, the Capital Gains Tax Act and the 1974
Finance Act, I have been advised by KPMG that the transaction does not give rise to any Irish
tax exposure for the companies involved or for the shareholders in FII.
International Fruit Agents Limited

FII acquired a subsidiary called International Fruit Agents Limited incorporated in the Cayman
Islands during the year ended 31. October 1972 though it may not have caused that company
to be established in the first instance. Its share capital was Cy$100. It was listed as a
subsidiary at page 11 of the financial statements of FII in that year a copy of which is set out
in [EX4], The company was involved in the buying and selling of fruit and received
commissions for these activities. In March 1974 the company was sold. I attach a copy of the
sale agreement [EX5]. Notwithstanding the said sale it appears that non-resident bank
accounts were maintained with the Bank in the name of International Fruit Agents from
October 1976, to approximately October 1980. I believe that FII was the beneficial owner of
the funds in these bank accounts. A number of documents relating to certain of these accounts
refer to the Company and copies of these documents are attached. [EX6].
I am not aware of what, if any, service was provided by the Company in relation to these
bank accounts.
I believe that all of the funds transferred into these bank accounts together with interest earned
thereon were applied (1) in the transfer of part of such funds to FIIfrom 1976 to 1980 in
circumstances where FII believes that the said amounts were brought into the P & L account
of FH for die relevant year and accordingly would haveformed part of the profits liable to tax
for that year; (2) in making payments to suppliers from November - to - December 1976 and
March - to - June 1979; (3) in making payments to personnel of Ê; and (4) in discharging
bank charges and other costs. Despite extensive enquiries no closing statements far these bank
accounts have been located nor are there any accounting records available reflecting the
closure of these bank accounts. Full disclosure of relevant facts has been made to the
Revenue Commissioners.
I am advised and believe that any Exchange Control consents required in respect of Paris
Investments Limited were sought and obtained try the Bank. I attach a copy of a letter from
the Bank to Story & Phelan, Chartered Accountants, dated 19 October 1972 [EX7]. I do not
know whether Exchange Control consent was necessary or obtained in relation to the
transactions undertaken by International Fruit Agents described above.
Other
Guinness and Mahon Limited have supplied me with a copy of a telex [EX8] which refers to
a dollar deposit in the name of FII containing, at the relevant time, $29,927.54. The fact that
John Furze was the author of the telex and a handwritten reference to "GMCT file" appears
in the top corner suggests a link between the account and the Company. The telex refers to the
debiting "of the sundry sub company account" and a hand-written note indicates that two drafts
for the total amount in the account, after deducting a number of expenses, were made payable
to me. I have no recollection of receiving these drafts. No reference to this account has been
located in what remains of the records of FII. Having enquired of a former employee of the
Bank I am advised that the references to the "sub-company * account and to replenishing the
account refers to an inter-bank account between the Bank and the Company. I have carried
out or have had carried out an extensive review of all of my personal bank accounts and
financial affairs and I am satisfied that these drafts were not given to me for my personal use.
Appendix XV (44) (1) (c)
oenes.xcj.ax owneranip^îp^x^^êquip
.'< .bee n": lodq e<i\w si is1 ^'-iâpie s,a
: •«;. .. - Grand CayrtaiA;'; Briti8h';.i?es€.'I«.difeisrj
.. * :. .. ; - •.• .. •••*.' -v-'^v. ^'''F&Yto^nlimWEBB
• 'tion'as' tescrw.&g^nt
-
<in the "joint\ s-3
• •. • •• VI • •'.
a'nrJ. Van^nv 4-ri Ka raT^nea^ a\
• . x- : v.- • •>> . • . r .
Appendix XV (44) (1) (d)
A
Authorisation to open Deposit Account
STRIBUTION OF COPIES WHITE : CUrialSrctlom. YELLOW»B***i»tMtmytr. HNK ; Cash. BLUE : Ctntnl ««mr CHE
Account OpanadB V ! Daw Opanad: Authorlnd By : & - f M ^ L - . Data
fe^cL lo-** Control Qarlcal
A/C Contact
— y•• • '•• •—-
' Aridiini
FRMFO Oft** -r.
Statamtnt Nana: (Ifdl/fertitt JVom ibovt)
Actdrio; (Ifdlfftrtntfrom tiort) •

^ ^. * ..
Tataih ol ixuting account* haM:
-SIGNING Individual A/C Signature Card

OWERS Jolnt/Flrm/Company A/C Mandaw Form. SENT OUT RECEIVED
/StrOtt out whhhtvr not qplkmMej
JltfrjWftrif Bi* >wm i•X"
n
ÂUTHORISED TO SUPPLY INFORMATION (tfafflrmmti** mar"X")
FORWARD INFORMATION TO 1 •
i •mif' r**)*^" >••«• •• Mt^ft M
3
• CALL/NOTICE
AMOUNT Off DEPOSIT
CALL
RataX RataX RataX RataX
2 OAYS.. 7 DAYS.... 14 DAYS.
DEPOSIT airiTrn nnii in
RataX RataX
I MONTH 3 MONTHS... OTHER tSo.ctfy,.
MATURITY DATE If-. ^ RataX
FIXED TERM
DEPOSIT
STANDING INSTRUCTIONS TO RELODGE
.mvattmam Cuttomvri A/CIf applictble tick

N with Staff*nAccount
box "X If *pp tic ft If tick box with m
COMPUTER FILE SET-UP FORM COMPLETED BY
_ o r->
Appendix XV (44) (1) (e)
Authorisation to open Deposit Account
I DISTRIBUTION OP COPIES WHITE: On** S*ct<o*. Y1LL0Wi tmktntMumftr. PINKI Ctth.
CHECKLISBLUE:
T CtntrmlPiling
Account Opanad By: Data Opanad J Data
Clarkal
Sontrol
Account Nun*: / C F ,/fa-i
A/C Contact
Addran:
Statarnant Nama: llfillfftrm ftnm atam

Addrun: urdlffmni frum tbort)
Oataili ol muting account! Md:
1^ ACCOUNT NUMBER fr | & l iJ H f l Oft I CLASSIFICATION

M COOS
RESIDENCY STATUS Raddant j

| | N
| No
on
n-
-R
f«
l«
ak
»i
la
dn
tt
m |
{ || Extamal
Ttet Rtknmt tax with an "X"
CURRENCY DESIGNATION Irlah Paunda Othar

TTelr KHnmtboxa wM T"Psundt Starling Specif*
-
STATEMENT MATURITY
REQUIREMENTS INSTRUCTIONS
SIGNING Individual A/C Sgnatur* Card

POWERS Joint/Firm/Company A/C Mandatt. 1 SENT OUT RECEIVED
fSrrike out wMrtnw not mpplltmhlt/
TTrtfltknnr taf irttfi an ~X"
AUTHORISED TO SUPPLY INFORMATION Hf^pnmHn wfi* "X")
<ORWARO INFORMATION TO •
I
AMOUNT OP OIPOSIT
RataX KaaaX
CALL/NOTICE
DEPOSIT call .Jgfl 2 DAYS. 7 DAYS..——— T4 DAYS.——n-
Ra«X
1 MONTH 3 MONTHS..TirrntTinnim gTHtn
'T lietHfri,,.
FIXED TERM MATURITY DATE Ran X
DEPOSIT
STANOING INSTRUCTIONS TO RELODGE
I InvMtmant Curamari AIfapptlctblt
/C Hek bux [with
staff Accan [
If tppllablt
ount".vf tick box with an "X" | |
COMPUTER FILE SET-UP FORM COMPLETED BY
•TO BE COMPLETED BY By OtaakadBv Filed By

CLERICAL SECTION KARDEX CARD
Form Paaaad for Pning By : DATS:
Appendix XV (44) (1) (f)
Appendix XV (44) (1) (g)
iSzkAr
Gut ^ O L / i w
5 MARS E l
GM DUBLIN
14.10*77
FOR MR MARTIN KEANE
RE YOUR T E L E X OF YESTERDAY.THE BALANCE INCLUDING INTEREST TO

DATE ON THE F . I . I . O E P O S I T WAS 2 S . S 2 7 . 5 4 DOLLARS.
EQUIVALENT I S POUNOS 1 6 , 8 7 0 . 0 9 . A F ™ DEDUCTING PAYMENT YOU

INDICATE OF 2166.59 AND TELEX AND SUNDRY CHARGES DUE TO US OF
POUNDS 1*8.04 THERE I S A BALANCE OF 14.656.If6. CONFIRM YOU MAY
- . . D E B I T T H I S TO SUNDRY' SUB-COMPANY ACCOUNT. PLEASE ASK T . f i . L .
- TO TELEX ADVISE SUNDRY SUB COMPANY ACCOUNT BALANCE SO T H A f WE CAN
v ; REPLENISH IF ACCOUNT j S OVERDRAWN BY REASON OF ABOVE TRANSACTION
REGARDS
JOHN FURZE
t
\
CORRECT I ONi THERE IS A BALANCE OF 14,655.46
5205 MARS E l
305GUINNESS CP
a a
Appendix XV (44) (1) (h)
SDHDRY .
statement SU9. .Wa,.!! ![account CLASSIFICATION NK -.GR.QDP.
dole cod. cathllawfl) mhuI • lllliitlnJ.nn ft-*! drfc*

2674 1,50^145. TO 10 J LOO
GUINNESS HAHON CAYMAN TRUST LTD i7Siio<;c
10 JO
data cod. cuMUwOI mnwI m4iWim limit (2 ) Ei
m> r MMKMAV Milt CUOtl
JOV 25*74 Vh 416.14 • 141.42 4,07934
250j(X) £7,666.14 • 141U2 4,07934
,7k TSFD FROH B/A . 22047*-
.-if27'/4 V.O. 30/9 INT 01FF B/2 fcf
40*27*74 .0. 30,3,7k - 7a«v
*W 27*74 I 1TT0
TSFD FROH A/M 14 H
'500j00«- 1*457.61 • 143J5 4,0793^
14SJ0C 4,07934
H S R ' P S W W ^ 1 ' " 5 - m . 156 JO:
4
DEC 20 74 :HEQUE IN F/0 LLOYDS BBK RE 'FAR= i OE
N^ ttss
*d£C 20*74 'UBLISHERS LTD* 1S5J3' 4,07J>
"EC24*74 r.D. I»/I2 INT OIFF FOR 0/A 4,12421 •
DEC 24 74 r
OR P/l '8.27
'5329 4,0793
•DEC 24*74 rF FROH EXT. SUSP/ -20615 4,679.62 • 196 Jl 4,0793
DEC3174 [NT TO DATE 23031 4,51053 • 196 3 4,0793
91055 • S1QJK
BUT DIFFEKENTAL PER OEC W»T
Jtt l»W »*C TELEX CHMdES CAYMAN tit 26M*
4,737.15 V 697.48 • 5iar
8*75 INT DIFF L/J/6 L/0 63.72' 5,735.40 •
IAN 1575 < .0. 31.12.74 INT OIFF ON B/L 17J
47j24" *78&64 • 5134 .45108!
W22'ft V.O. 31/12 TF FROM A/C 76755- 1Q^549J9 • ,*%510.85
iAB24'7'» V.O. 19.9.7*1 TO REVERSE ENTRY 1,182.79' 11,732.68 • 4655 S <.31035
-Ai28 *5 NT RECO FROH F.N.C.BK ON <10*000 FROf 51J57* 4.310J5
J*i2i /5 10/12 TO 27/1 AT I1XX 34S11' 12,077.0 • i
61M 4,310.15
J'-Sl 28*75 ODGED BY L/0 sôoaio.- 21,077.8} • 61.16 4,310.6
JA'.'29n .00 GEO
J-I.2V.5 | 2 5^01170- 11,09L» • 66.41 4,3lalS
rfCI ITS I 00GEO 64000.00
1^091.59 • OUT J 4,310 JK
®UB 4'/5 7AL Jl 12 7V jNTL. FKUIT AGtNTS SbOOOjOO* 1 \ 926.12 ' • SLIT
164.67' * 4,31a*
..c 5'/5 IOOGED (8/G) ~ 15(100
.fc i'/5 1 SFO «s« 1S0U lsaou
• iB 575 ] ELEPHOflE CALLS OUBLIN 56&40
fc 575 IRAWN 15,649.52 • 84.54 { 4,3iate
SYMaOLf Of III INIiRiSf cuotr SIMlING fOUIVAllNT
II debit bil*nct • credit bdanc* HO,!, No authority to supply inform,
iniMMt cm oammWon over phone or to auditors. Rate
l( tadgmni cw c«h withdrawal 8% fixed. Int. qrt. on 31st March
and 31st nnr.. each vear. Tnt. OONOt
cb chequebook to ft*ndin( order
Appendix XV (45) Mr Arthur Gibney
Arthur Gibney.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Arthur Gibney dated 15 March 2000.
b) Guinness and Mahon letter of 18 October 1977 to Mr Arthur Gibney.
c) Guinness and Mahon letter of 14 October 1976 to Mr Arthur Gibney.
d) Guinness and Mahon letter of 28 September 1976 to Mr Arthur Gibney.
e) Guinness and Mahon internal memo of 18 May 1976.
f) Letter of 13 March 2000from Hayes & Sons to Inspectors.
g) Statements of a/c ref: A/A2 Ansbacher Limited of 31 October 1992,

31 December 1992, 31 January 1993 and 30 April 1997.
h) Undated letter of guarantee to Guinness and Mahon.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. ARTHUR GIBNEY
UNDER OATH
ON WEDNESDAY, 15TH MARCH 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MR. ROWAN FCA
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. ARTHUR GIBNEY
Represented by: MR. ANDREW WALKER
HAYES & SONS SOLICITORS
LAVERY HOUSE
EARLSFORT TERRACE
DUBLIN 2
INDEX
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. A. GIBNEY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MR. ROWAN
MS. MACKEY
1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON WEDNESDAY,
2 15TH MARCH 2000.
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Gibney, we will start
5 our interview then.
6 My name is Declan Costello and on my right
7 is Ms. Mackey and on my left is Mr. Rowan. As you
8 know we have been appointed Inspectors by The High
9 Court.
10 MR. GIBNEY: I understand.
11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I should explain to you,
12 as I am sure you
13 appreciate, this is not a Court and it is not a
14 Tribunal. We are merely carrying out an
15 investigation and this is an interview.
16 MR. GIBNEY: Yes.
17 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: If, in fact, you have any
18 difficulties about any of
19 the questions that we ask, please feel free to
20 consult your solicitor about them.
21 MR. GIBNEY: Yes.
22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Similarly, if there are
23 any problems that your
24 solicitor has in relation to any questions that we
25 would ask he can tell us so and we will stop and you
26 can take advice.
27 MR. GIBNEY: Yes.
28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Your evidence Mr. Gibney
29 will be taken under Oath
4
1 and now I'd ask our solicitor, Ms. Cummins, to
2 administer the Oath to you.
3 MR. GIBNEY: Yes.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
5
1 MR. ARTHUR GIBNEY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED
2 AS FOLLOWS.
4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Gibney, you supplied
5 us with a number of
6 documents, which we obtained yesterday. Your
7 solicitor supplied us with a statement, which he
8 informed us he was sending on your behalf?
9 A. Yes.
10 2 Q. I want to begin by referring you to a document in
11 this file you sent us?
12 A. Yes.
13 3 Q. It is a document dated 18th October 1977 addressed
14 to you by Mr. O'Dwyer from the loans office (Exhibit
15 1) ?
16 A. Yes.
17 4 Q. The reference is 136 at the top of
18 the...(INTERJECTION)
19 MR. WALKER: Which section of the
20 number is it? There are a
21 number of different sections in the file?
22 MS. CUMMINS: We actually have a
23 paginated copy (Same
24 handed).
25 MR. WALKER: All right.
26 5 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You see there Mr. Gibney
27 that there is a letter of
28 18th October 1977 to you?
29 A. Yes.
6
1 6 Q. It says:
2 "Chris Dodd recently wrote to Mr. J.D.

Traynor to get copies of personal
3 accounts of both Sam Stephenson and
yourself..."
4
6 "...and the backing funds from the
7 1st October 1976."

o
o
9 A. Yes .
10 7 Q. And they had,
11 "I have today written to him giving him

the information relative to Sam and
12 advising that I am writing to you
letting you have information covering
13 your own position."
14
15 Then:
16 "Accordingly, I have pleasure in

attaching hereto a statement covering
17 your resident loan from the 1st October
1976 to closing. Also note covering
18 the Cayman position from the 1st
October to closing."
19
20 Could you turn over the page then Mr. Gibney?
21 A. Yes .
22 8 Q. Do you see:
23 "Cayman, 1st October 1976, balance

£142,973.40"?
24
25 A. Yes .
26 9 Q. Do you see that?
27 A. Yes .
28 10 Q. Then interest and then interest and the total
29 £147...(INTERJECTION)?
7
1 A. Yes.
2 11 Q. Yes.
3 "Account closed by transfer to

Arthur Gibney loan"?
4
5 A. Yes.
6 12 Q. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, I see that.
8 13 Q. Does that mean Mr. Gibney that at that time you had
9 in the Cayman account £147, 371.62?
10 A. That would appear so.
11 14 Q. Yes?
12 A. Yes.
13 15 Q. I want you to tell me about that account?
14 A. How it occurred.
15 16 Q. And how it occurred?
16 A. Yes.
17 17 Q. And when it occurred?
18 A. Yes.
19 18 Q. I want you to go into as much detail?
20 A. Detail.
21 19 Q. As you can?
22 A. Yes.
23 20 Q. I know that it is a long time ago?
24 A. Yes.
25 21 Q. Mr. Gibney?
26 A. Yes. Well, I will tell you. I will tell you as you
27 far as I can. In the 1960's I was in practice as a
28 partner in Stephenson Gibney & Associates.
29 22 Q. Yes?
8
1 A. Mr. Desmond Traynor was our accountant and we became
2 involved in a series of property deals. We became
3 involved as architects and we became involved as
4 developers with a consortium of businessmen.
5 23 Q. Yes?
6 A. And there were a number of sites involved. The most
7 important site, I think, was the present
8 Fitzwilliam Tennis Club site, which related also to
9 a previous Fitzwilliam Tennis Club site which was
10 along the canal.
11 24 Q. Yes?
12 A. And there were a number of other sites as well but
13 they were never developed.
14 25 Q. Yes?
15 A. Now, we started making profits in dealing with these
16 sites and the profits were, I think, handled by
17 Mr. Traynor on behalf of the consortium and around
18 about 1970 he moved from being an accountant
19 in Haughey Boland to a senior position in
20 Guinness & Mahon. I don't know whether he was then
21 a Manager Director but he ultimately became
22 Managing Director.
23 26 Q. Yes?
24 A. And at this stage there were a certain amount of
25 profits made but this is before the acquisition of
26 the Fitzwilliam Tennis Club site. There were other
27 minor sites involved. There was no actual
28 development as far as I can remember, no actual
29 building, on any of these sites at this stage.
9
1 27 Q. Yes?
2 A. But we were involved ourselves, this is myself and
3 Sam Stephenson, in the ownership of three sites. We
4 had them as our offices in Appian Way, Winton Road.
5 It was number three -- I am not certain if the other
6 was number four -- no, number five and number six I
7 think. They were part of this development parcel.
8 So, we sold these sites to this development
9 consortium. We made a fair amount.
10 28 Q. What is the name of the development consortium?
11 A. I might get it wrong.
12 MR. WALKER: I think there were a
13 number of companies.
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. WALKER: And there is -- one of the
16 letters lists the
17 different names.
18 29 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We will leave it for the
19 moment then. Continue
20 Mr. Gibney?
21 A. Sure I can always find it for you.
22 30 Q. Yes. Continue Mr. Gibney.
23 A. Sure, Okay.
24 31 Q. You are giving evidence to me now?
25 A. Yes, sure.
26 32 Q. To the Inspectors?
27 A. Certainly, yes.
28 33 Q. You are not giving evidence to your solicitor?
29 A. Yes.
10
1 34 Q. Just answer my questions then, will you please?
2 A. Repeat your question again please?
3 35 Q. Yes, I am not bothering at the moment in relation to
4 that?
5 A. Yes .
6 36 Q. We will come back to it later on?
7 A. Yes .
8 37 Q. I am just concerned about the deposit in the
9 Cayman Islands?
10 A. Well, at this stage Mr. Traynor came to myself and
11 Mr. Stephenson and he suggested it would be
12 providential for us to have a trust fund for our
13 families. He himself was particularly concerned, I
14 think, because his health hadn't been very good. He
15 had, I think, had a heart attack just when he had --
16 as he went into Guinness & Mahon he had a very
17 serious coronary condition.
18 38 Q. Yes?
19 A. He had four or five in the family and he was
20 concerned about his own family. Sam Stephenson had
21 three or four children. I had no children at this
22 stage and I wasn't particularly concerned but he
23 thought it was probably a good idea to have a family
24 trust.
25 39 Q. Yes?
26 A. And my memory of this is a bit vague but I do
27 recollect him bringing in an expert who -- I think
28 his name was Don Reid. I think at that stage he was
29 from another accountant's office, the firm that

1 preceeded Stokes Kennedy Crowley. I think
2 Kennedy Crowley. He talked about setting up a
3 trust, a family trust. Part of this money, that was
4 these profits, were put in a Cayman account. This
5 was around 1970/71.
6 40 Q. Yes?
7 A. As far as I can recollect.
8 41 Q. Are you going to be a little bit more specific
9 Mr. Gibney?
10 A. In terms of dates?
11 42 Q. No, in terms of the arrangement?
12 A. Well...(INTERJECTION).
13 43 Q. He talked about the trust?
14 A. He talked about the trust. As far as I know there
15 was never a formal trust instituted but we did
16 have...(INTERJECTION).
17 44 Q. Why do you say that? Did you get
18 a...(INTERJECTION)?
19 A. I never — I never -- I never remember any -- I
20 remember myself and my wife signing many documents
21 but I never remember any document signed which
22 related to -- I mean my idea of a trust was a fund
23 which I couldn't touch.
24 45 Q. Yes. Perhaps, I might assist you in your
25 recollection Mr. Gibney?
26 A. Yes .
27 46 Q. From other evidence we have obtained?
28 A. Yes .
29 47 Q. Were you told by Mr. Reid the details of this trust?

1 For example were you told it would be a
2 discretionary trust?
3 A. Yes, I think so.
4 48 Q. Yes?
5 A. Yes.
6 49 Q. And that you would be one of the beneficiaries of
7 the beneficial trust?
8 A. I am not certain about that.
9 50 Q. You are not certain?
10 A. I am not, no.
11 51 Q. Whether you would be?
12 A. Yes.
13 52 Q. However, you were not going to give away the money
14 so that you would have no control over it, were you?
15 A. Well, my understanding, and why I remember this was
16 because I didn't particularly like it, was that it
17 would be entailed in a way that only my family and I
18 couldn't -- it would be for the benefit of children,
19 my children.
20 53 Q. Yes?
21 A. And I wasn't particularly interested in it at the
22 time because I hadn't got children.
24 A. I adopted a son.
25 55 Q. You mean to say you were going -- he was suggesting
26 the establishment of a trust, a discretionary trust,
27 for your children?
28 A. That is what the talk was about.
29 56 Q. At a time when you had no children?
13
1 A. Yes, I was adopting a child at this stage but I
2 hadn't got a family. The other two people involved
3 had families.
4 57 Q. Did he tell you that in fact an accountant in the
5 Cayman Islands would in fact be the settlor in the
6 trust?
7 A. He may have told me that, yes. I remember he talked
8 about a setup in the Cayman Islands.
9 58 Q. Doing the best you can now?
10 A. Yes .
11 59 Q. Can you remember him telling you that?
12 A. No, he told me they were establishing an office in
13 the Cayman Islands.
14 60 Q. I am not talking about an office. I am talking
15 about trusts, Mr. Gibney. Do you see this would
16 explain, would it not, why you did not sign any
17 trust deeds, if he told you that the scheme was that
18 there would be a trust set up in Cayman but you
19 would not be the actual settlor? You would not be
20 able to transfer funds to it?
21 A. Yes .
22 61 Q. It would be set up and the actual settlor would be
23 perhaps one of the accountants out in the Caymans.
24 Did he tell you that?
25 A. I can't recollect. He may well have.
26 62 Q. He may well have?
27 A. He may well have, yes. I can't be certain of it.
28 63 Q. Do you see I will be referring you in a few moments
29 to another document which refers to trust funds. I

1 was wondering can you be any more specific about
2 whether or not they may have set up an trust out in
3 the Caymans?
4 A. Well, I thought they had set a trust up.
5 64 Q. You did?
6 A. I thought -- yes, I always had the belief that there
7 was a trust set up out in the Cayman.
8 65 Q. For... (INTERJECTION)?
9 A. In the Caymans.
10 66 Q. For you?
11 A. Well, for my family, yes.
12 67 Q. Yes. However, you used the money that was sent out?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 68 Q. How could you have used it if a trust was set up and
15 you had no interest in it?
16 A. Well, I then presumed that they had never finalised
17 the trust. I mean I have been trying to figure this
18 out myself over a period of the last year and I went
19 and saw Mr. Stephenson to discuss it with him in the
20 hope that he could enlighten me. He couldn't
21 remember until I prompted him -- he couldn't
22 remember ever meeting this man Don Reid.
23 69 Q. Yes?
24 A. And I said, "Don't you remember this?"
25 70 Q. Perhaps, we will take it in a different way?
26 A. Yes.
27 71 Q. Funds were sent out?
28 A. Yes.
29 72 Q. To the Cayman?
15
1 A. Yes.
2 73 Q. How were these transferred?
3 A. I have no idea. I mean Mr. Traynor took care of all
4 of that.
5 74 Q. You must have known the amount that was sent out?
6 A. At the time, yes, I am sure I did.
7 75 Q. You see it was a substantial sum that went out, was
8 it not?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 76 Q. Yes?
11 A. At the time I am sure I did.
12 77 Q. Was this from Mr. Traynor?
13 A. Yes.
14 78 Q. For you?
15 A. Yes.
16 79 Q. Was this from the funds obtained as a result of this
17 joint venture with Guinness & Mahon and/or
18 Mr. Traynor?
19 A. It would be. It would be mainly from the joint
20 venture although all the participants in the sort of
21 joint venture, the Fitzwilliam Tennis Club site,
22 wouldn't be involved necessarily in all of the sort
23 of property developments.
24 80 Q. No, I am really interested in your own money out in
25 the Caymans?
26 A. Yes.
27 81 Q. Which came eventually to £147,000?
28 A. Yes.
29 82 Q. Was this part of your fees as an architect that went
16
1 out?
2 A. No, not necessarily. I think they were profits on
3 selling lands, selling sites.
4 83 Q. Surely you can remember whether or not you
5 transferred or informed Mr. Traynor of your fees and
6 whether or not these went out or not?
7 A. Well, I mean the fees -- part of the fees may well
8 have gone out.
9 84 Q. They may have gone out?
10 A. Yes. Part of the fees may well have gone out. I am
11 not certain but I think in most cases as the fees
12 concerned more than myself and Mr. Stephenson. At
13 that stage this was quite a large practice. I don't
14 think it was a question of investing the fees. We
15 wouldn't be able to do that. Most of the money I am
16 sure came from profits made from selling three
17 fairly substantial houses with lands.
18 85 Q. How much were they do you know?
19 A. I can't remember at this stage.
20 86 Q. Have you checked?
21 A. Em...(INTERJECTION).
22 87 Q. Have you checked since?
23 A. No, I haven't but they were quite large houses. We
24 were also involved in a number of other sites and I
25 am trying to again remember precisely which sites we
26 were involved in. We were ultimately involved in
27 the development of an office block in Bride Street,
28 which was sold on to an insurance company and there
29 was a considerable profit made in that.
17
1 88 Q. Right. These profits went out to the
2 Cayman Islands?
3 A. Well, I am not certain about those, about the
4 insurance company, because my memory tells me that
5 they were possibly later than that.
6 89 Q. Yes?
7 A. What date was that letter? I think they were later.
8 90 Q. Yes. I want you to get back to the time when you
9 were...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. Yes, I mean the -- I think the Cayman Island thing
11 was set up before we sold the offices in
12 Bride Street.
13 91 Q. How much money was sent out to it initially do you
14 remember?
15 A. I am not quite certain. I...(INTERJECTION).
16 92 Q. I mean doing the best you can?
17 A. I have no idea but I am sure it was substantial.
18 93 Q. What -- are we talking about £100,000?
19 A. I would say so.
20 94 Q. Yes?
21 A. Yes.
22 95 Q. Initially?
23 A. I am guessing but I can't remember. This was part
24 of a parcel of a lot of other financial
25 undertakings.
26 96 Q. Yes?
27 A. And I would have seen it as part of a lot of other
28 dealings.
29 97 Q. If we could get it this way: We know from the
18
1 document, that I have just given you, that there was
2 £147,000 there?
3 A. Yes.
4 98 Q. In 1977?
5 A. Yes.
6 99 Q. How much of that would have been initially there?
7 How much was...(INTERJECTION)?
8 A. I am sure most of it was.
9 100 Q. Initially?
10 A. Yes.
11 101 Q. It was put out there?
12 A. Yes.
13 102 Q. Was that in the early 1970s then?
14 A. Yes.
15 103 Q. Did you return the interest that that earned to your
16 income tax authorities here in Ireland?
17 A. No, but I presumed Mr. Traynor or his firm would.
18 104 Q. No. However, your personal income tax?
19 A. No, I don't think so.
20 105 Q. Had you an accountant yourself looking after your
21 own personal income tax?
22 A. We had Mr. Traynor's former firm.
23 106 Q. Haughey Boland?
24 A. Yes.
25 107 Q. Yes?
26 A. And ultimately this man Chris Dodd.
27 108 Q. However, at this time in the early 1970's when this
28 deposit was made you had Haughey Boland?
29 A. Yes.
19
1 109 Q. Just to make clear, just so we can understand it,
2 the deposit was in your name, was it not?
3 A. Yes.
4 110 Q. Arthur Gibney?
5 A. Yes.
6 111 Q. However, then would that not have been your
7 responsibility to return that particular interest on
8 that particular deposit to your revenue authorities
9 here in Dublin?
10 A. Yes.
11 112 Q. You did not do that?
12 A. I am not certain whether I did or not. I may not
13 have. I am not quite certain.
14 113 Q. However, surely you would remember or not whether or
15 not you returned this for income tax purposes?
16 A. I am not certain. I am sorry but I would have
17 presumed that Haughey Boland would have known about
18 it.
19 114 Q. Would you like time to make...(INTERJECTION)?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 115 Q. Enquiries with the Revenue authorities?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 116 Q. As to whether or not you returned this for income
24 tax?
25 A. Yes.
26 117 Q. There was this substantial sum of money in the
27 Cayman deposit?
28 A. Yes.
29 118 Q. Did you have an arrangement with Mr. Traynor by
20
1 which you could obtain payment, cash, from this
2 money in the Cayman Islands?
3 A. Not in this particular -- in the case of this
4 particular account.
5 119 Q. Does that mean that you did not take any payments
6 from it?
7 A. No, I took no payment from it.
8 120 Q. You took no payment from it?
9 A. No.
10 121 Q. Right. Did you add to it?
11 A. No.
12 122 Q. At all?
13 A. No.
14 123 Q. During the 1970's?
15 A. No.
16 124 Q. So...(INTERJECTION)?
17 A. Not to my knowledge.
18 125 Q. Really then what we are talking about is a one off
19 sum that was paid, which you left in the Cayman
20 Islands?
21 A. Yes.
22 126 Q. On deposit?
23 A. Yes.
24 127 Q. You do not know whether or not there was a trust?
25 You think there was or may have been a set up, is
26 that the position?
27 A. Yes.
28 128 Q. This may have been trust funds?
29 A. Yes.
21
1 129 Q. In which you had -- with which you could draw on if
2 you wanted?
3 A. I presume so, yes.
4 130 Q. In fact you did draw on it because you transferred
5 the whole lot back to Dublin to your own
6 personal...(INTERJECTION)?
7 A. Yes.
8 131 Q. Did you not?
9 A. Yes.
10 132 Q. You had full control over it?
11 A. Yes.
12 133 Q. Yes. There is a reference in the papers to Gemini,
13 a firm called Gemini, a company called Gemini. What
14 is it?
15 A. I am not certain. I have references to several
16 companies here and I can't recollect precisely what
17 they were but they -- each one of them, I think,
18 related to a different site.
19 134 Q. Were they companies in Ireland or could they have
20 been the company that was managing your trust funds?
21 A. I am honestly not certain.
22 135 Q. You do not know?
23 A. No.
24 136 Q. I want you to look at a letter of the
25 14th October 1976. It is in tab three of our
26 documents. I think it is also in your file
27 Mr. Gibney (Exhibit 2)?
28 A. Yes, I have noticed that.
29 137 Q. This was a time, I think, there were financial
22
1 difficulties ?
2 A. Yes .
3 138 Q. I think involved at this time?
4 A. Yes .
5 139 Q. I would like you to look at the letter of the
6 14th October 1976?
7 A. Yes .
8 140 Q. Do you see it begins:
9 "We refer to the facility letter dated

28th September 1976, addressed to you
10 by us. We have been informed by
Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited
11 that they will carry out your
instructions in the following respect:
12 1. Existing hypothecation agreements
relating to Call Deposits made with
13 them will be cancelled..."
14
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes .
17 141 Q. What were they?
18 A. They must refer to this sum here.
19 142 Q. No, no, I am talking about the "existing
20 hypothecation agreements relating to Call Deposits"
21 with them. You had agreements with Guinness Mahon
22 Cayman Trust Limited by which you hypothecated, you
23 gave as security, these deposits. I want you to
24 tell me about them?
25 A. I am sorry I am a bit confused about this.
26 143 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION).
27 MR. WALKER: Maybe if I could
28 just...(INTERJECTION)
29 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: No, I am sorry.

1 MR. WALKER: Okay.
2 144 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just let the witness tell
3 me. Perhaps, it is the
4 wording you do not understand?
5 A. Yes, I think it is.
6 145 Q. Hypothecation agreements, is that it?
7 A. Yes.
8 146 Q. Do you understand what they are?
9 A. Not clearly.
10 147 Q. I will put it this way to you: Did you have
11 agreements with the Bank out in Cayman by which they
12 lent you money or your firm money?
14 148 Q. Not to your knowledge?
15 A. No.
16 149 Q. I see. Then:
17 "...the funds so deposited with them

will be hypothecated against your
18 person loan account."
19
20 Then if we go back then to the 28th September. Have
21 you got that letter there Mr. Gibney (Exhibit
22 3)(Same Handed)?
23 A. Yes.
24 150 Q. £142,000?
25 A. Yes.
26 151 Q. That letter was a facility letter in relation to
27 £142,000 odd. There was no security mentioned in
28 that but the security then was these -- was the sums
29 that you had on deposit?
24
1 A. Yes .
2 152 Q. Would you look at the letter again of the 14th
3 October 1976 (Exhibit 2)?
4 A. Yes .
5 153 Q. Do you see paragraph three?
6 A. Yes .
7 154 Q. It reads:
8 "£20,000 is to be transferred to our

order in connection with Gemini."
9
10 Do you remember that? Do you know what that is?
11 A. I am trying to remember what it is. It is obviously
12 a debt I had, probably relating to one of the sites
13 that we were involved in. At this stage, 1976, we
14 owed a lot of money to Guinness & Mahon relating to
15 a number of sites.
16 155 Q. Yes?
17 A. Now, I am guessing as to the identity of Gemini.
18 156 Q. However, you think it was an Irish company?
19 A. Yes. I think I was subsequently involved, after the
20 consortium, the Fitzwilliam consortium -- I was
21 subsequently involved with Mr. Stephenson and a
22 number of other people in the purchase of another
23 very large site, The South County Hotel.
24 157 Q. Yes?
25 A. There was large borrowings on that.
26 158 Q. Yes?
27 A. And it ended up disastrously but it could be that or
28 a number of other smaller sites we were involved
29 with at the time.

1 159 Q. Yes. Could I refer you to a letter, it is an
2 internal memo rather, of the 18th May 1976? It is
3 page 46 of the file (Exhibit 4)(Same Handed)?
4 A. Thank you.
5 160 Q. This as from JDT. That is from Mr. Traynor?
6 A. Traynor, yes.
7 161 Q. This is an internal memo. It is strictly private
8 and confidential?
9 A. Yes.
10 162 Q. It is the 18th May 1976?
11 A. Yes.
12 163 Q. It is talking about the indebtedness of you and
13 Mr. Stephenson?
14 A. Yes.
15 164 Q. It says:
16 "A present borrowings by Sam on his

personal accout, Arthur on his personal
17 account... ."
18
19 A. Yes.
20 165 Q. Then:
21 "In addition Guinness & Mahon London

has guaranteed £65,000 to the Bank in
22 Dublin. Sam Stephenson is guaranteed
Avoca Limited. The total involvement
23 would therefore be..."
24
25 And it gives the total involvement as per schedule?
26 A. Yes.
27 166 Q. If you could turn over two pages you will see the
28 schedule and, Mr. Gibney, on your personal account
29 your debt was £102,000?
26
1 A. Yes.
2 167 Q. Then:
3 "Ailesbury Securities. Stephenson &

Gibney..."
4
5 And the total was £236,991.64?
6 A. Yes.
7 168 Q. That was in May 1976?
8 A. Yes.
9 169 Q. Would you just see underneath that total there on
10 the first page of the document of the 18th May:
11 "Against this there would be trust

funds totalling £332,376, making a
12 shortfall of £256,038."
13
14 Do you see that they refer to trust funds?
15 A. Yes.
16 170 Q. What is reference there to, do you know?
17 A. Well, obviously it is these funds in the Cayman
18 Islands.
19 171 Q. Yes?
20 A. Yes.
21 172 Q. They refer to them as trust funds?
22 A. Yes.
23 173 Q. It looks then as if they must have established a
24 trust?
25 A. Yes, yes.
26 174 Q. Yes. The funds in the Cayman Islands are yours and
27 Mr. Stephensons?
28 A. Yes.
29 175 Q. I see. Mr. Gibney, I want to refer you now to your
27
1 statement that your solicitor sent us (Exhibit 5)?
2 A. Yes .
3 176 Q. Do you see on the first page, the end of the first
4 page:
5 "Our client did have Cayman deposits in

this period which related to his
6 property development activities"?
8 A. Yes .
9 177 Q. Is that what you have been telling us?
10 A. That is what I believed. I mean you are telling me,
11 in your estimation, clearly there was a trust
12 established. I am beginning to see that now.
13 178 Q. Yes?
14 A. But I mean I didn't realize -- I had somehow got the
15 idea that a trust was something that would be
16 outside my control.
17 179 Q. However, that really is not the point I am making
18 because it is quite clear that this deposit was
19 completely under your control. Whether it was set
20 up by as a trust or not I am not concerned with at
21 the moment?
22 A. Yes .
23 180 Q. It would appear you have agreed that there probably
24 was a trust?
25 A. Yes, yes.
26 181 Q. However, it was a trust in such a form that you had
27 complete control over it?
28 A. Yes .
29 182 Q.
"Which related to property development
28
1 activities."
3 What does that mean?
4 A. Well, the money accrued from profits.
5 183 Q. From property?
6 A. Made from buying sites to develop.
7 184 Q. Yes?
8 A. And selling the sites.
9 185 Q. Yes?
10 A. Or attempting to develop them and selling the sites.
11 186 Q. Yes. If you would just turn over the page
12 then Mr. Gibney. You refer to the difficulties that
13 occurred?
14 A. Yes.
15 187 Q. Then you go on to say:
16 "At this state our client's Cayman

deposits were repatriated to pay off
17 these Irish loans"?
18
19 A. Yes.
20 188 Q. Is that what occurred?
21 A. That is what occurred.
22 189 Q. Yes?
23 A. Yes.
24 190 Q. You then refer to these conversations you had with
25 Mr. Traynor and Mr. Reid about trusts. Then you go
26 on then in the next paragraph:
27 "By the mid 1970's the entire or our

Client's assets had been consumed by
28 his liabilities due to the Banks on
loans ..."
29
29
1 A. Yes.
2 191 Q.
"...At this time in the late 1970's
3 Mr. Traynor advised Mr. Gibney that in
recognition of his co-operation in
4 settling his indebtedness, Mr. Traynor
would set aside a sum of approximately
5 £25,000."
8 Tell me about that Mr. Gibney?
9 A. Yes. It is a little bit more complicated than that.
10 When I found myself in this situation I had also
11 found that myself and Mr. Stephenson weren't getting
12 on in terms of what we both wanted to do.
13 192 Q. Yes?
14 A. He wanted to continue his involvement in property
15 development and he wanted to develop the firm in a
16 way that I disagreed with.
17 193 Q. Yes?
18 A. We fell out. We didn't nave a nasty falling out.
19 We fell out and we decided we were -- I was going to
20 leave the partnership. One of the problems that
21 accrued was when Guinness & Mahon looked for their
22 money back -- I think Guinness & Mahon were probably
23 in difficulties. They had been involved in a lot of
24 property development other than the ones they were
25 involved in with us. I think there were
26 difficulties there because I think two of the senior
27 people had to leave.
28 194 Q. Yes?
29 A. I think Desmond Traynor was retained because he was
30
1 probably not terribly involved. He was more
2 involved in the financial end of it rather than the
3 sort of property development end. At this stage
4 Mr. Stephenson really felt that we were not being
5 treated properly by Guinness & Mahon. He disputed
6 figures and disputed the fact that he owned this
7 money. I wanted to get shut of the whole thing. I
8 wanted to start a new practice away from property.
9 I wanted to get away from property development and
10 start a small practice.
11 195 Q. Yes?
12 A. And one of the problems I encountered was that in
13 the settlement, after I had sold property in
14 Wexford, sold property in Clontarf, was that my
15 home, which was a Mews in Lesson Place, was also in
16 question. Mr. Traynor demanded that -- they had
17 the Deeds of all my properties but he wanted the
18 Deeds of my home. Sam Stephenson refused to give
19 him the Deeds of his home and it ended up with my
20 Mews being mortgaged to defray the indebtedness to
21 City Bank.
22 196 Q. Yes?
23 A. Now, at that stage I think -- although it says
24 £65,000 here, from my memory and from what I perused
25 in documents the indebtedness was less. It was
26 about £35,000.
27 197 Q. Yes?
28 A. At this stage I was more or less bankrupt. I was
29 leaving a large firm and starting up a very small
31
1 firm with no assets and my solicitor, who at that
2 stage was the late Terance Doyle, said; "Look, I
3 think you have been treated very unfairly."
5 My wife was particularly annoyed about this and she
6 had been dealing with Terance Doyle, and more on her
7 behalf than mine, anyway he went and saw
8 Mr. Traynor. He said:
9 "I think my client has been treated

very unfairly. He has acceded to all
10 your demands. He has given you
everything he has. You have now taken
11 his home and put him into a very
difficult position because he is
12 falling out with Mr. Stephenson. Mr.
Stephenson owes money, which he may not
13 pay, he is disputing it."
14
15 And there were solicitors letters going from
16 Mr. Stephenson to Mr. Traynor threatening suits.
17
18 He made the point that I was in a very awkward
19 position and Mr. Traynor said;
20 "Yes, I agree. Mr. Gibney has been

very co-operative. He has done his
21 best to pay off the stuff. I agree his
Mews is in danger because Mr.
22 Stephenson may not pay the remainder of
this debt."
23
24 He called me in and he said, "Look," he said, "I
25 don't think I can cover the amount of £25,000" or
26 whatever the amount was. It was something like
27 that, that was owed, but he said; "I will set aside
28 something out of the account £20,000/£25,000." He
29 said, "Just in case your Mews -- you lose your Mews"
32
1 as a security. That is the figure that is referred
2 to here.
3 198 Q. I am not following?
4 A. I know it is a bit...(INTERJECTION).
5 199 Q. What... (INTERJECTION)?
6 A. I am sorry.
7 200 Q. No, just listen to me?
8 A. Yes.
9 201 Q. What account was he setting aside the £25,000 from?
10 A. From the money that we had paid back. The debt that
11 we had paid back.
12 202 Q. No. What account? Was this an account that you had
13 in Guinness & Mahon?
14 A. Well, I had an account in Guinness & Mahon quite
15 apart from the Cayman account. I had an account in
16 Guinness & Mahon but...(INTERJECTION).
17 203 Q. Where was the £25,000 being set aside from?
18 A. I'm not certain. I mean I was so glad to be
19 reassured at the time. Mr. Traynor to a great
20 extent doesn't, didn't, explain a lot of the things
21 he did. I had more or less over the years
22 accepted...(INTERJECTION).
23 204 Q. Did you understand that you were getting £25,000?
24 A. Well, what I understood at the time was that he
25 would try to balance -- if anything happened my Mews
26 this £25,000 would go against it. It would repay
27 whatever was remaining of the debt so that I would
28 hold my Mews and I understood the £25,000 would be
29 mine.
33
1 205 Q. Yes?
2 A. Yes. I don't know where it came from. It came
3 obviously from part of the money we paid in.
4 I...(INTERJECTION).
5 206 Q. Does it not look as if...(INTERJECTION)?
6 A. He was doing me a favour.
7 207 Q. However, does it not look as if it was part of the
8 sum that you had paid to discharge the debt, he was
9 going to say you had -- he was keeping £25,000 of
10 that for you?
11 A. It looks like that, yes.
12 208 Q. Is that what it was, do you think?
13 A. I think it was.
14 209 Q. You had £25,000?
15 A. Yes.
16 210 Q. That Mr. Traynor was looking after for you?
17 A. Yes.
18 211 Q. When was that do you think?
19 A. That was 1977.
20 212 Q. Is that the time of this?
21 A. It was just after we had paid back that money.
22 After, yes. I had already left Stephenson Gibney.
23 I had started off a new small practice.
24 213 Q. When was that?
25 A. 1977.
26 214 Q. It was in 1977 that this happened?
27 A. Yes, 1977. Yes, I think 1977.
28 215 Q. Yes?
29 A. Certainly either late 1976 or mid 1977. Sometime
34
1 around that period.
2 216 Q. It is not important to be exact Mr. Gibney?
3 A. Yes .
4 217 Q. However, just in relation to the period it is
5 sometime late 1976 early 1977 and you can identify
6 that time?
7 A. Yes .
8 218 Q. Because it was the time of your financial
9 difficulties ?
10 A. Yes .
11 219 Q. Your split up with Mr. Stephenson?
12 A. Exactly, exactly, exactly.
13 220 Q. Would you just look over at the next page, at page
14 three?
15 A. Yes .
16 221 Q. Do you see b & C:
17 "Our client can not give any further

information or documentation in
18 relation to the first account other
than as set out above. Our Client
19 cannot be specific as to when the
second account was set up but it
20 appears to have been some time in the
mid 1980's."
21
22 What is that?
23 A. Well, that is an attempt to explain that while --
24 Stephenson was paying back -- he did ultimately pay
25 back all the money owed to City Bank. If it was at
26 1977 the money -- I think the money was put against
27 the sort of indebtedness. I presume the money was
28 put into an account for me in the early 1980's. It
29 took him, I think, four or five years to pay back
35
1 the money.
2 222 Q. However, I am talking about an agreement made in
3 1977 by which you understood you had £25,000
4 available to you?
5 A. Yes.
6 223 Q. In an account that Mr. Traynor was looking after?
7 A. Well, by the...(INTERJECTION).
8 224 Q. Why are you referring then to the mid 1980's?
9 A. By 1980, what I am trying to explain is that I felt
10 that the money, I had no control over the money. I
11 couldn't get the money.
12 225 Q. Yes?
13 A. Because Mr. Stephenson was paying off debts.
14 226 Q. Yes?
15 A. That I presumed by 1980 he had his debts paid off.
16 227 Q. Go back to page two:
17 "Some time in the early 1980's

Mr. Traynor informed our Client that
18 the amount set aside by
Mr. Traynor/Guinness & Mahon Bank
19 still existed"?
20
21 A. Yes.
22 228 Q. In the early 1980s you...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. Yes. You see I didn't see Mr. Traynor for years. I
24 didn't meet with Mr. Traynor for a long period. I
25 was busily trying to set up a small practice. I
26 wasn't involved in property dealings or anything
27 else. I didn't meet Mr. Traynor but he telephoned
28 me.
29 229 Q. Yes?
36
1 A. He wanted me to do some work on his house because my
2 previous firm had done some work on his house and
3 there were problems and he telephoned me and asked
4 me would I do some -- go out and sort some things
5 out in his house.
6 230 Q. Yes?
7 A. I went out to his house and he told me then, he
8 said, "By the way that money is there. It is in
9 your name".
10 231 Q. This £25,000?
11 A. Yes.
12 232 Q. That meant that he had an account somewhere?
13 A. Yes.
14 233 Q. Which was available to you?
15 A. Yes.
16 234 Q. To the amount of £25,000 pounds?
17 A. Yes, and I was conscious of this but I never -- I
18 didn't see him for...(INTERJECTION).
19 235 Q. Yes?
20 A. Certainly I didn't see him in the late 1970's. I
21 had no reason to see him.
22 236 Q. Yes?
23 A. And he rang me and asked me, as I said, to do some
24 work on his house over a period of about two years.
25 237 Q. Yes?
26 A. In the 1980's. I am not quite certain when.
27 238 Q. If I could just refer you now to the documents that
28 you produced?
29 A. Yes.
37
1 239 Q. You produced the "Ansbacher" Limited accounts and
2 the Hamilton Ross accounts. It is a statement of
3 account.
4 A. Yes.
5 240 Q. These ones?
6 A. Yes.
7 241 Q. Yes. This is the statement of account of
8 "Ansbacher" Limited of the 1st October 1992 and it
9 is £98,431.96 (Exhibit 6)?
10 A. Yes.
11 242 Q. Then if you look at the other documents that you
12 gave us. The next one refers to the interest and it
13 is "Ansbacher" Limited Cayman. Then we go on, the
14 third page is Hamilton Ross?
15 A. Yes.
16 243 Q. It is £100,000 there?
17 A. Yes.
18 244 Q. Then the later ones are all Hamilton Ross?
19 A. Yes.
20 245 Q. And it comes up to £107,011.82 in 1997?
21 A. Yes.
22 246 Q. Can you explain how it rose from £25,000 to that
23 figure?
24 A. Well, it must have been interest.
25 247 Q. Interest?
26 A. I didn't put any money into any account in
27 Guinness & Mahon or elsewhere.
28 248 Q. Would you turn to page three of your letter, of your
29 statement. I think you have it there, Mr. Gibney?
38
1 A. Yes .
2 249 Q. Page three of your statement (Exhibit 5)?
3 A. Yes .
4 250 Q. Do you see "D"?
5 A. Yes .
6 251 Q. Then:
7 "In relation to the first account all

transactions on the account were
8 conducted by Mr. Traynor, who had an
interest in the property transactions
9 conducted by our Client."
10
11 A. Yes .
12 252 Q.
"Withdrawals in relation to the second
13 account were effected by our Client
contacting Mr. Traynor"
14
15 A. Yes .
16 253 Q.
"To the best of our Client's
17 recollection most withdrawals received
from Mr. Traynor were in cash."
18
19 A. Yes .
20 254 Q.
"After Mr. Traynor's death our Client
21 contacted Mr. Traynor's secretary,
Ms. Joan Williams who advised him that
22 he should contact a Mr. Collery. Our
Client could not contact Mr. Collery
23 and ultimately contacted
Sam Field Corbett who formerly worked
24 in Guinness & Mahon. Money withdrawn
after Mr. Traynor's death was usually
25 in cash."?
26
27 A. Yes .
28 255 Q. How often used you go to obtain cash
29 from Mr. Traynor?
39
1 A. Very infrequently. Not on a regular basis.
2 256 Q. What was the purpose of the cash withdrawals that
3 you made?
4 A. Mostly work on my house.
5 257 Q. Can you remember then how much you would have
6 obtained from the account?
7 A. Other than what is in those withdrawals there, no,
8 because I didn't withdraw money from the account for
9 a long time. It was only, I think, probably over
10 the last eight or nine years that I withdraw money
11 from the account.
12 258 Q. Tell me how much you think you withdrew?
13 A. I don't think I withdrew more than you see in those
14 withdrawals.
15 259 Q. No, just tell me, apart from the documents, what can
16 you recall?
17 A. Well, I would withdraw sums like £2,000, £3,000,
18 £4,000, £5,000.
19 260 Q. Small sums?
20 A. That type of sum.
21 261 Q. Where used you go to withdraw them?
22 A. Well, I was still in touch with Mr. Traynor at times
23 about his house. I would telephone him. It might
24 take me two or three days to get hold of him on the
25 telephone and I -- he would ask me, "Do you want
26 money" and I would say, "Yes". He would say, "How
27 much" and he would say, "I will telephone you in a
28 day or so" and he would tell me to come into his
29 office or to his house because I was again
40
1 consistently doing odds and ends on his house, not
2 on, you know -- not continuous on a yearly basis but
3 two or three times I was...(INTERJECTION).
4 262 Q. Was it only in his house that you obtained the
5 money?
6 A. Sometimes in his house.
7 263 Q. Yes?
8 A. No, sometimes in his office.
9 264 Q. Where?
10 A. In Fitzwilliam Street.
11 265 Q. That is in Cement Roadstone?
12 A. Yes.
13 266 Q. Used you go into Roadstone and get...(INTERJECTION)?
14 A. Yes.
15 267 Q. Get cash?
16 A. Yes, I did, yes.
17 268 Q. Did you ever get a statement, a piece of paper that
18 the top had been cut off?
19 A. No.
20 269 Q. That was a statement of...(INTERJECTION)?
21 A. I received no statements at all.
22 270 Q. Yes?
23 A. I received no documentation at all.
24 271 Q. Then the money just rose there and you just left the
25 money there?
26 A. Yes.
27 272 Q. Did you return the interest from this for your
28 income tax?
29 A. No, I didn't.
41
2 A. No.
3 274 Q. Would it be possible that you have other documents,
4 other than these, in relation to the account?
6 275 Q. Where did you get these?
7 A. I am quite certain.
8 276 Q. Where did you get these from?
9 A. I got those after pursuing Mr. Collery. It took me
10 some time to find him and ultimately I asked for a
11 meeting with him to try and understanding what was
12 going on and he handed me those.
13 277 Q. Did he explain to you exactly was what going on?
14 A. No.
15 278 Q. Did you know for example what A/A2 was on these?
16 A. No.
17 279 Q. Did he explain to you there they were coded accounts
18 in Guinness & Mahon?
19 A. No, he didn't.
20 280 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION)?
21 A. I had never heard of the name "Ansbacher".
22 281 Q. Yes?
23 A. I knew of an "Ansbacher" Bank in Dublin.
24 282 Q. Yes?
25 A. I had some dealings with it.
26 283 Q. No, I am not...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. Yes.
28 284 Q. I am just wondering did he tell you that they were
29 coded accounts, that these were kept in
42
1 Guinness & Mahon, and then in the IIB Bank?
2 A. No.
3 285 Q. Did he tell you anything about that?
4 A. No.
5 286 Q. Nothing at all?
6 A. He was very reticent.
7 287 Q. Yes?
8 A. My sole discussion with him frankly was I had
9 intended going to see the Revenue Commissioners and
10 I just wanted to find out about the account so I
11 could go to the Revenue Commissioners. He told me
12 he was already dealing with the Revenue
13 Commissioners himself.
14 288 Q. Did Field Corbett explain to you what had happened?
15 A. No.
16 289 Q. The position then was that this money was there, you
17 only drew bits of it from time to time?
18 A. Yes.
19 290 Q. And it accumulated?
20 A. Yes.
21 291 Q. In the way we described?
22 A. Yes, and I only drew it in the later portion.
23 292 Q. Yes?
24 A. I don't think I drew anything in the 1980's. I
25 wasn't in touch with Mr. Traynor very much until I
26 went to him in his house and I rarely saw him until
27 the end of 1980's then.
28 293 Q. Yes. Then it was after that then that you -- did
29 you go to him regularly then after that in the
43
1 early 1990's?
2 A. Well, as regularly as those accounts show, not every
3 six months.
4 294 Q. These accounts do not show anything from
5 before 1992?
6 A. Well, I cannot swear that I didn't go to him before
7 then. I may have gone to him in the late 1980's. I
8 am not certain of that frankly but I didn't go that
9 frequently.
10 295 Q. Did you every hear of Amiens Securities?
11 A. No. No, and having said that there were so many
12 companies going through sort of my life particularly
13 in the early stages, in the 1970's, that I may have
14 seen the words "Amiens Securities" but there were
15 hundreds of companies and I may have seen it but I
16 don't recollect it. I don't know what it means.
17 296 Q. It was a company which had an account in
18 Guinness & Mahon from which payments were made by
19 Mr. Traynor to people who had accounts
20 in Guinness & Mahon, who had coded accounts. I am
21 just wondering if you can, from these records,
22 recollect -- our information is that there was a
23 payment from Amiens Securities on the
24 7th November 1986, A Gibney & Partners, of £6,000.
25 Can you remember sums like that?
26 A. Arthur Gibney & Partners had an account with
27 Guinness & Mahon. We borrowed money from Guinness &
28 Mahon and...(INTERJECTION).
29 297 Q. No. No, I am talking about money been paid to you
44
1 from this Amiens Securities Limited?
2 A. I am absolutely quite certain that no money was paid
3 to me other than money I went in and asked
4 Mr. Traynor for.
5 298 Q. Mr. Traynor for?
6 A. Which I got. As I say to the best of my knowledge
7 from Mr. Traynor in cash form.
8 299 Q. Could it have been sum of £6,000?
9 A. No, I don't think so.
10 300 Q. There is another document, another record, which we
11 have and perhaps you may be able to assist us on it,
12 of February 1985, Mr. A. Gibney, £12,000?
13 A. No.
14 301 Q. MR. WALKER: These are withdrawals from
15 the Amien account?
16 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: The Amien account, yes.
17 Payments from the Amien
18 account and the payee is Mr. Gibney.
19 MR. WALKER: Yes.
20 302 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: The records also show a
21 lodgement to this Amien
22 account from the A Gibney account of £8,350.89?
23 A. I am aware of having a letter about this, which was
24 an inquiry from the Tribunal.
25 303 Q. Yes?
26 A. And again I don't understand it.
27 304 Q. You do not remember it?
28 A. And I don't understand it.
29 305 Q. Yes. Very well. Mr. Gibney, I do not think I have
45
1 any further questions to you. However, I would like
2 just to look at my notes. This might be an
3 opportunity to have a coffee break. We will break
4 for say ten minutes?
5 A. Yes, certainly.
6 306 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: All right.
9 SHORT ADJOURNMENT
10
11
12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Gibney, we will renew
13 our interview. I have no
14 further questions but I will pass one of colleagues
15 over to you. Mr. Rowan would like to ask you some
16 questions?
17 A. Yes.
18
19 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. GIBNEY BY MR. JUSTICE
20 COSTELLO.
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
46
1 MR. A. GIBNEY EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY MR. ROWAN.
3 307 Q. MR. ROWAN: Mr. Gibney, you told us
4 that in the 1970s or
5 thereabouts you had as your advisors, accountancy
6 advisors, Haughey Boland?
7 A. That is right.
8 308 Q. Who were your legal advisors at that stage?
9 A. Do you mean in terms of my own personal affairs or
10 in terms of property development.
11 309 Q. Both?
12 A. The property development end, Liam McGonigal was
13 very involved in it. He was involved in a lot of
14 the development. My own affairs were taken care of
15 by Hugh Doyle, Terence Doyle & Sons. I can't
16 remember if we had, and I am sure we had, another
17 legal advisor for the firm generally. I am sure we
18 had, you know. There was another one. I am trying
19 to recollect who that might be.
20 310 Q. Have you continued to retain the services of
21 Haughey Boland?
22 A. No, Haughey Boland's services were retained, I
23 think, while I was a partner in Stephenson Gibney up
24 to -- probably the problems that arose.
25 Mr. Stephenson and Mr. Traynor weren't hitting it
26 off. They were very good friends for a long time
27 but they weren't hitting it off. Mr. Stephenson is
28 the managing partner of the firm. I was more or
29 less involved in the architecture, more in the
47
1 architecture work, not that he wasn't involved in
2 architecture work.
3 311 Q. Yes?
4 A. He was the managing partner. He fell out
5 drastically with Mr. Traynor and he felt that the
6 firm needed another advisor and he obtained -- I am
7 sorry. I am confused, yes. No, I am right. He
8 obtained the services of Mr. Christopher Dodd, who
9 had worked for Guinness & Mahon previously and had
10 gone into private practice as an accountant. Now, I
11 am not quite certain when this was but I would say
12 it was around 1975/76 when Mr. Traynor and
13 Mr. Stephenson started having problems about the
14 debt and repayments. He would have advised me at
15 that stage too in terms of being a partner there.
16 When I left I took another totally different
17 accountant.
18 312 Q. Who was that?
19 A. I can't remember the name of the firm. I will
20 recollect it but I ultimately changed in the 1980s
21 to Niall Byrne & Partners.
22 313 Q. Do you continue to use their services?
23 A. Yes, yes. I think that the previous accountants
24 names were -- thought that would be from when I left
25 Mr. Stephenson until sometime in the 1980s.
26 314 Q. You explained to us that the first Cayman deposit
27 that you had arose from the profits on a number of
28 property transactions in the late 60s or
29 thereabouts?
48
1 A. The 1970s.
2 315 Q. Into the 1970s?
3 A. It might have been 1969.
4 316 Q. Yes?
5 A. Yes .
6 317 Q. You told us that Mr. Traynor was your advisor in
7 connection with those, that was prior to him joining
8 ...(INTERJECTION)
9 A. Yes .
10 318 Q. Guinness & Mahon?
11 A. Yes, yes. He was I think, I am fairly certain that
12 he was involved before he joined Guinness & Mahon,
13 yes .
14 319 Q. Right.
15 A. A year or so, not for a long period.
16 320 Q. Yes. So that when he joined Guinness & Mahon who
17 was looking after the accountancy associated with
18 these developments, which I think you said were
19 usually in separate limited liability entities?
20 A. Yes, I am not quite certain. I was in a position
21 where I was not dealing daily with this,
22 Mr. Stephenson was to a greater extent. I was
23 present at all important meetings, but I wasn't
24 dealing it with on a daily basis, I was dealing more
25 with the architecture. I can't recollect if there
26 was a partner from -- there was certainly a partner
27 from Haughey Boland who was looking after our
28 general financial affairs. I can't recollect who
29 would be centrally involved in looking after the
49
1 mortgage end of it. Mr. Traynor was centrally
2 involved in that.
3 321 Q. So that when a development was complete there would
4 have been some accounting done to determine what
5 the profit was?
6 A. Yes, now when I said the development, in most cases
7 buildings weren't built. Sites were sold.
8 322 Q. Yes?
9 A. More frequently, that would be Mr. Traynor.
10 323 Q. But I am confused, Mr. Gibney. I don't know whether
11 it was Mr. Traynor wearing his Haughey Boland hat or
12 Mr. Traynor wearing his Guiness & Mahon hat?
13 A. I know, I see your confusion and well appreciate it.
14 He wasn't a partner of Haughey Boland's at time, but
15 I think he probably would have been involved in --
16 certainly in a lot of cases he would have been the
17 one who decided what the profit was.
18 324 Q. Yes. So that profit would have been divvied up to
19 the people who had the interest in that particular
20 development ?
21 A. Yes, in most cases, in some cases like it would only
22 be myself and Mr. Stephenson. Like, for instance,
23 when we sold these houses in Appian Way, Winton
24 Road, it would only be myself and Mr. Stephenson.
25 There were other occasions when there were five or
26 six people involved.
27 325 Q. So if it had been yourself and Mr. Stephenson and it
28 had been 50/50 adventure then 50% of the profit of
29 that particular development would have been sent off
50
1 to Cayman?
2 A. I don't think it happened, I think the Cayman thing
3 was a one off situation. Now I could be wrong here,
4 I am sorry to be so vague, but I think it is was a
5 one off thing. I think it happened when there was
6 profits sent, whatever the sum was over there. I
7 do not recollect enough to be sure of it but, I feel
8 it was a one off situation. I think Mr. Traynor at
9 one stage said: Okay, we will send all that over to
10 the Cayman Islands, and there was an account in our
11 name in Guiness & Mahon which was used for other
12 property purchases.
13 326 Q. All right?
14 A. That is my recollection, and I know it is terribly
15 vague.
16 327 Q. I understand that. But let us suppose, Mr. Gibney,
17 that the profits of these various developments
18 which, of course, did not all get calculated on 31st
19 December one year?
20 A. Yes.
21 328 Q. They would have arisen at different times over a
22 period?
23 A. Yes.
24 329 Q. Lets suppose that your share of the profits had been
25 gradually building up in an account in Guinness &
26 Mahon?
27 A. Yes.
28 330 Q. And at some point that account, the balance of that
29 account was transferred to Cayman?
51
1 A. Yes, I think that...(INTERJECTION)
2 331 Q. Is that the way you see it?
3 A. Now I could be completely wrong, but that is the way
4 I perceive it.
5 332 Q. Yes .
6 A. And, my memory is better now than it was a year ago.
7 I have been for the last year trying to sort out in
8 my own mind, I am still trying to sort out what
9 these companies are, they are what site they related
10 to, and I am sorry to be so vague about it, but to a
11 great extent Mr. Traynor might have a meeting at 7
12 o'clock in the morning with breakfast at Mr.
13 Stephenson's house. Mr. Stephenson might some times
14 be there, they would decide things, I would be told
15 afterwards. Now I am not trying to get out of
16 responsibility, but I accepted it if they made
17 decisions about this kind of money, and I am not
18 talking again about moving stuff to Cayman. That
19 was fully discussed, but in terms of buying sites
20 and that, and I would say; okay, I mean...
21 333 Q. All right. When a property was sold or development
22 completed, there would presumably have been an
23 account raised and you would have had that document
24 put in front of you, I imagine?
25 A. I would say, yes. Whether I got a copy of it or
26 kept or copy of it or not, I would say, yes. The
27 most pertinent one from that regard, and certainly
28 there was a full kind of look at it and
29 distribution, would be one which for convenience I

1 am calling Ailesbury Securities, and that might not
2 be the one, but I have been trying to piece together
3 which was which, and that was a development in Bride
4 Street which was our own offices which was sold to
5 New Ireland Insurance Company. That was the only
6 one that was completed as a development, as it were.
7 The profit on that totally accrued to myself and
8 Mr. Stephenson.
9 334 Q. Yes?
10 A. As far as I know, only us two.
11 335 Q. Then when to go back to the accounting document?
12 A. Yes .
13 336 Q. Call it what you will.
14 A. Yes .
15 337 Q. Would that document have been provided at some stage
16 by someone and if so who, to the tax authorities?
17 A. I am not certain and, I mean, most of the stuff that
18 we were dealing with Mr. Traynor would have prepared
19 all the documentation on.
20 338 Q. So, you do not know whether the profits on the
21 developments which Mr. Stephenson and yourself and
22 others were involved in, were subject to tax?
23 A. I am not certain. Certainly there were profits
24 made.
25 339 Q. But at this stage Haughey Boland were your firm?
26 A. Yes, for most of that period Haughey Boland were. I
27 think they only stopped when the kissing stopped, as
28 it were.
29 340 Q. Would you like to ask after our interview today,
53
1 would you like to ask Haughey Boland if they have
2 any records of any of those property development
3 transactions? Accountancy firms sometimes retain
4 tax related records for quite a long time for
5 convenience for clients?
6 A. All right.
7 341 Q. Yes?
8 A. Certainly.
9 342 Q. If you would get them for us please?
10 A. Yes, certainly I will do that.
11 343 Q. Where over the period we've been talking about, 60s,
12 70s, 80's now, where have you been resident for tax?
13 A. Here in my house.
14 344 Q. In Ireland?
15 A. In Dublin, yes.
16 345 Q. Right. May I turn you to the statement which your
17 solicitors produced on your behalf and ask you
18 please to turn to page three of that (Exhibit 5)?
19 A. Yes.
20 346 Q. You see small "d"?
21 A. Yes.
22 347 Q. Where it says:
23 "In relation to the first account, all

transactions on the account were
24 conducted by Mr. Traynor who had an
interest in the property
25 transactions... ."
26
27 Could you tell us a bit more about that?
28 A. Yes, the particular property?
29 348 Q. Well, whatever you were thinking about whenever your
54
1 solicitor wrote that on your behalf?
2 A. Well, from '69, say, until '73, '74, myself and
3 Mr. Stephenson were engaged with a fairly large
4 group of people. They included New Ireland
5 Insurance Company, and they included Mclnerney
6 Properties in amassing sites and, as I said, the
7 largest of them and sort of the one that I think we
8 were most involved in as a group, was the transfer
9 of the Fitzwilliam Tennis Club from where they were
10 on the canal, to the site that was partially
11 occupied by the three offices that we had and by
12 Wesley College, and there were a number of other
13 sites. There was a site, a warehouse near the Four
14 Courts on the quays in a place off Cuckoo Lane. I
15 remember that, I can't remember -- some of the other
16 sites were smaller and less conspicuous. There were
17 three or four sites.
18
19 Now that group participated in profit marking and we
20 participated specifically in selling part of the
21 land which was used for the Tennis Club to the
22 consortium.
23 34 9 Q. And Mr. Traynor was involved?
24 A. Yes, he would.
25 350 Q. As a member of that consortium?
26 A. He would have been the sort of the central figure in
27 the organisation of all the finance, both borrowing
28 if borrowing was required and coordinating and
29 distribution.
55
1 351 Q. But he had an interest in it?
2 A. Yes.
3 352 Q. He had a financial interest in it?
4 A. Yes he had, yes.
5 353 Q. This you said was in the 1960's?
6 A. It started in the 1960's but I don't think anything
7 really happened in the 1960s.
8 354 Q. At the time when Mr. Traynor was still with
9 Haughey Boland?
11 355 Q. He was, therefore, involved directly in the
12 investment?
13 A. Yes.
14 356 Q. He was a partner in a firm of accountants who
15 offered you, at least you and Mr. Stephenson advice
16 as your advisors?
17 A. Yes.
18 357 Q. And so on?
19 A. Yes.
20 358 Q. And presumably offered you advice in respect of this
21 investment?
22 A. Yes, financial advice, yes.
23 359 Q. Yes?
24 A. Not property advice.
25 360 Q. No, I understand?
26 A. If I could continue just to clarify one small thing,
27 it may not be important at all. After 1974,
28 Mr. Traynor was again involved with Mr. Stephenson
29 and myself in another group other than that group in
56
1 further property transactions, albeit, a little
2 unwillingly.
3 361 Q. What was the name of that?
4 A. It concerned, I can't remember the name of it. I
5 mean they coin names so frequently I get them
6 confused but the site involved was the South County
7 Hotel.
8 362 Q. That was in the 1970's?
9 A. That was after 1974 and 1974, 1975, 1976, it was a
10 bit later than the site at Fitzwilliam. You see the
11 property market had changed.
12 363 Q. May I pass you up a document?
13 A. Certainly.
14 364 Q. Which may have something to do with that. This as
15 you see is a document to Guinness & Mahon (Exhibit
16 7) ?
17 A. Yes.
18 365 Q. Which says where you will see that you and others
19 are writing to Guinness & Mahon, saying?
20 A. That is right, yes.
21 366 Q.
"In consideration of your placing at
22 the disposal of Beresford Investments
Limited?"
23
24 A. Yes, yes, that strikes a note, Beresford
25 Investments, yes.
26 367 Q. Is that using the name of...(INTERJECTION)?
27 A. That is certainly a very familiar name. I have seen
28 it many times.
29 368 Q. Yes?
57
1 A. With other names but if it relates to one site or
2 not or whether it relates to a group name, I am not
3 certain. It obviously here relates to a group of
4 people and at least one site.
5 369 Q. You see Mr. Gibney that the people who are giving
6 this guarantee are LD. McGonagle, KP. O'Reilly
7 Hyland, J.D. Traynor, JJ. Finnegan, S. Stephenson
8 and Arthur Gibney, yourself?
9 A. Yes .
10 370 Q. So that here we have Mr. Traynor involved?
11 A. Yes .
12 371 Q. In this investment?
13 A. Yes .
14 372 Q. At which point, of course, he would have been
15 involved with Guiness & Mahon?
16 A. Yes, there is no date on this is there? Well, he
17 obviously is, yes.
18 373 Q. Yes, there is a date somewhere in this?
19 A. They refer to a letter of the 5th January 1970.
20 374 Q. They do, that is right?
21 A. Yes .
22 375 Q. What was Beresford Investments doing?
23 A. Buying sites and developing property. Now whether
24 this group were known as Beresford Investments or
25 not, I am not certain. As I say, there are four or
26 five companies. Beresford Investments may have
27 related to one or two particular sites. I am not
28 certain what name the major development was held in
29 but certainly it is a very familiar name to me,
58
1 Beresford Investments.
2 376 Q. Can you tell me who brought this group of people
3 together?
4 A. There was I think Mr. Stephenson and Mr. Traynor
5 were very friendly and Mr. Traynor was very friendly
6 with Mr. McGonagle.
7 377 Q. Who was a solicitor?
8 A. A solicitor, yes and Mr. Stephenson knew him. He
9 may have been in school with him but, he,
10 Mr. Traynor I think probably was the main connection
11 between them because he I think may have been
12 involved with them at an earlier stage. They had
13 been, apart from Mr. Traynor, all these people had
14 been involved previously in property development and
15 when I met them, they had already built, developed
16 and successfully built at least one major office
17 space, maybe more. They were all involved in the
18 property; well, certainly some of them are involved
19 in professions related to property.
20 378 Q. Do you know whether Beresford Investments was hit by
21 the property slump?
22 A. Yes, all sorts of companies that were involved were
23 badly hit by the property slump in 1974. I am very
24 conscious of that because Mr. Stephenson refused to
25 see it as a property slump and wanted to go on where
26 nobody else did. Hence, that other
27 consortium I talked to you about which had that
28 site, the South County site and Mr. Traynor was
29 involved in that as well.
59
1 379 Q. Turning now to another company which you mentioned,
2 Ailesbury Securities?
3 A. Yes .
4 380 Q. What can you tell us about Ailesbury Securities?
5 A. No, I could be totally wrong, I thought I had the
6 impression that Ailesbury Securities might have been
7 the company of myself and Mr. Stephenson to develop
8 our own offices. Now I would be wrong about that.
9 I have been trying to put together what all of these
10 companies meant in terms of a particular development
11 package and I have not succeeded in my own mind.
12 381 Q. Perhaps Haughey Boland would be able to assist you.
13 I think Haughey Boland are now Deloitte & Touche?
14 A. Yes .
15 382 Q. I think that is right?
16 A. I think one of the people in Deloitte & Touche, they
17 were existing partners are still there. I think I
18 know one partner there still.
19 383 Q. There is also a company called Avoca Investments
20 mentioned?
21 A. That doesn't ring a bell but I might have been
22 involved but it doesn't ring a bell.
23 Wren Securities is another one that rings a bell but
24 I don't know what it is.
25 384 Q. I am going on then Mr. Gibney, in 1992, 1993 or
26 thereabout, there was a tax amnesty?
27 A. Yes .
28 385 Q. Did you avail of that tax amnesty?
29 A. No, I didn't, I was unconscious of the tax amnesty
60
1 and I was unconscious of the need to do it at the
2 time. I am very sorry I did not but I would be very
3 far away from thinking about finances. I would be
4 very involved in developing my own profession in
5 terms of my own career, institutionally and I missed
6 the tax amnesty.
7 386 Q. Of course, perhaps you did not realise there was an
8 issue to be dealt with?
9 A. I didn't fully. It was something I was unconscious
10 of.
11 387 Q. This was because, of course, Mr. Traynor, had said
12 £25,000 aside?
13 A. Yes, it was...(INTERJECTION).
14 388 Q. And that was...(INTERJECTION).
15 A. I wasn't investing at all and as
16 such...(INTERJECTION).
17 389 Q. Sorry, just one moment please, that was, therefore,
18 sitting accumulating interest?
19 A. I wasn't certain whether it was or not.
20 390 Q. And you were unconscious of it?
21 A. Yes .
22 391 Q. It accumulated interest and as you can see from your
23 papers, it had risen to a value of
24 substantial...(INTERJECTION)?
25 A. I was highly surprised.
26 392 Q. Yes?
27 A. As people around the table obviously where too.
28 393 Q. Yes, but for someone who was on his knees
29 financially and trying to get going again, get your
61
1 own architectural firm going again?
2 A. Yes.
3 394 Q. It does maybe seem a little surprising that you were
4 not interested in the fact that you had £25,000
5 sitting in an account?
6 A. I am not surprised at your statement. I was very
7 strapped for money in the 1970s and in the early
8 1980s. Quite apart from the fact that I was
9 starting off de nouveau, it was a very bad period.
10 A very very bad period. Hence, you will find I
11 borrowed money from Guiness & Mahon. It was very
12 hard to get money anywhere.
13 395 Q. I do not understand in that case why if you had a
14 need to borrow money, why you just did not go and
15 get hold of this £25,000?
16 A. To a great extent, I did not really realise whether
17 it was mine or not. I was very -- I mean Traynor
18 was very much a kind of -- he is a very dominant
19 figure and he never explained very much, well,
20 certainly people he was dealing with like me and he
21 had done me, I thought, an immense favour but I did
22 not know how to deal with the situation. He was a
23 man of very few words. He never explained anything
24 and I went to him looking for money and he said, I
25 can get you a loan. I told him I was anxious also
26 to start -- being self-employed at the time, I
27 hadn't really started off the idea of a pension
28 until very very late in life. I went to him and I
29 said can I invest some of that money in a pension
62
1 fund and he said, look, listen he said pensions you
2 are throwing your money away, particularly at your
3 age he said. You can have the money, he said, as
4 part of a pension fund when you retire.
5 396 Q. You make him sound, you make Mr. Traynor sound, in
6 some ways, a somewhat intimidatory character?
7 A. He wasn't intimidatory in the normal course of
8 events. I think he was a very ordinary person but
9 in my terms, he intimidated me about money and my
10 lack of knowledge of the financial world. I looked
11 upon him as a great benefactor at the time because
12 he had basically, although there was nearly a court
13 case going to happen between himself and
14 Mr. Stephenson. I had fallen out with
15 Mr. Stephenson over other things. I felt he had
16 been extremely generous to me. He had helped me at
17 a time when I was virtually bankrupt and I treated
18 him with great respect. He was also at the time I
19 was a very small practitioner, he was Chairman of
20 Cement Roadstone. He was on various big national
21 boards so I treated him with a great deal of
22 diffidence and respect and whatever he told me to
23 do, I would do. That was the case even earlier on
24 in financial terms. He had a reputation as a whizz
25 kid.
26 MR. ROWAN: Thank you very much
27 Mr. Gibney.
28
29 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. GIBNEY BY MR. ROWAN
63
2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Ms. Mackey
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
1 MR. GIBNEY WAS EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MS. MACKEY
3 397 Q. MS. MACKEY: Yes, I just have a few
4 questions, Mr. Gibney,
5 just to tie up a few loose ends that I did not quite
6 follow?
7 A. Sure.
8 398 Q. In relation to the money in the first account or
9 trust or what ever?
10 A. Cayman, yes.
11 399 Q. Or whatever you call it in Cayman, yes. You said
12 early on that you believed for quite some time that
13 it was a trust?
14 A. Yes.
15 400 Q. Then you were doubtful because you felt a trust was
16 something that you should not be able to touch?
17 A. Yes.
18 401 Q. When did you become aware that you could touch this
19 money?
20 A. When did I become aware?
21 402 Q. That you could touch that money in the trust?
22 A. I am thinking back over a long period. I was
23 unconscious of the money while it was there in the
24 1970's because there was other money and everyday
25 there was some other deal going on, there was a lot
26 -- and I wasn't conscious of it at all. I had the
27 impression that it was and this only came about from
28 Mr. Stephenson's conversations with me as he was
29 dealing with Mr. Traynor much more frequently than I
65
1 was but after this man Reid came in, they were
2 talking about a trust which was designed to protect
3 families if people died. I know Traynor himself, as
4 I said, had been in bad health, had a very serious
5 heart attack and had a family and he died very
6 young. He was conscious of this and that is why I
7 recollect the idea that it is for your children and
8 Stephenson said, you know you can't touch it if it
9 is for your children. I said, yes, I said but I am
10 adopting a child at the moment but I said, I have no
11 family. I knew I would not have a big family and I
12 wasn't particularly interested. I do not recollect
13 thinking about the money until we were confronted
14 with a situation where we owed a lot of money and
15 Mr. Traynor said, I am moving your money from here
16 to there. I was unconscious of it. I never drew
17 money from it. To the best of my knowledge, it went
18 in one lump and nothing else went into it.
19 403 Q. Mr. Traynor did not ask you then if you could use
20 that money. He said he was moving it, is that the
21 way it happened?
22 A. That is way he dealt but he had to have our
23 agreement fully. I mean I am very conscious of that
24 and we signed an agreement. He was managing it and,
25 as far as we knew, it was there but we never, I am
26 fairly certain I am speaking for Stephenson as well,
27 we were never conscious of it. It was something
28 that -- I bought a largish house in the country at
29 one stage and it was financed out of money I made
66
1 but I never thought about saying, can I move some of
2 this to do it. It never occurred to me.
3 404 Q. Is that the first time that you knew you could use
4 it was to pay off your loan?
5 A. The first time I was conscious of it, that sounds
6 like a very lame excuse but --
7 405 Q. Can I just refer you again to page three of the
8 statement that your solicitor prepared there
9 (Exhibit 5)?
10 A. Sure.
11 406 Q. And to paragraph d?
12 A. Yes .
13 407 Q. You say:
14
"In relation to the first account, all
15 transactions on the account were
conducted by Mr. Traynor."
16
17 What do you mean by all transactions?
18 A. The only transaction I recollect is putting the
19 money there and taking it out again.
20 408 Q. That is what you mean by all transactions so opening
21 and closing?
22 A. Yes, I mean I do not recollect any other
23 transactions.
24 409 Q. Another question slightly related but on a different
25 aspect of it, the consortium that was involved on
26 that occasion; can you give me the name of the
27 people in that consortium?
28 A. In the first one?
29 410 Q. Yes?
1 A. Yes, certainly. The names of the people who were in
2 your letter related to Beresford Investments. They
3 were the central figures of the consortium. They
4 did also have Mclnerney Properties or Mclnerney -- I
5 am not certain whether the company was Mclnerney
6 Properties but they were represented by
7 Mr. Ambrose Mclnerney at the time and they had
8 New Ireland Insurance Company as partners for part
9 of the development, this is only one site. This is
10 the big site.
11 411 Q. The individual?
12 A. Individuals, were the individuals enumerated in that
13 letter, I do not think there were any more.
14 412 Q. There were no others?
15 A. Not individuals. They would be involved in two or
16 three sites as opposed to the one site on the tennis
17 court which had other participants.
18 413 Q. When you tell us that Des Traynor suggested to all
19 of you at that stage that it might be providential
20 to set up trusts, it was to that group of people he
21 suggested it?
22 A. As far as I knew, he was dealing with myself and
23 Stephenson. He may have been dealing with them but
24 I was unconscious of their -- I do not know what he
25 did with them but certainly when he talked to us, it
26 was to myself and Stephenson more or less as an
27 accountant.
28 414 Q. Okay?
29 A. He was a mentor of Mr. Stephenson for a long time
68
1 and it was more or less as an accountant I think.
2 415 Q. Very good. In relation to the loans that you had
3 over the years in Guinness & Mahon, did you claim
4 tax relief on those loans?
5 A. No, I do not think so. My accountant might have but
6 I am unconscious of whether he did or not. These
7 were the two loans in the 1980s.
8 416 Q. Yes?
9 A. My accountant might have.
10 417 Q. Yes, I noticed that there is a certificate -- he
11 asked for certificates of tax there of interest?
12 A. Yes.
13 418 Q. In relation to the second account, the £25,000. As
14 you say it was there for a number of years. It was
15 set aside, you did not know where it was and you
16 were not aware until Mr. Traynor mentioned it again
17 to you and you went to do...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. I was conscious of it but I felt rather awkward
19 about it.
20 419 Q. When did you become aware that you could actually
21 withdraw money from that account?
22 A. I think probably when I went into borrow money and
23 when I started talking about my pension to him.
24 420 Q. Yes?
25 A. He said to me, he said, look if you want a few
26 thousand pounds. I told him I wanted -- my house at
27 this stage, I had decided to expand it. I had
28 brought in the 1980s part of the site next door.
29 421 Q. But I am really just interested to know how you
69
1 became aware you could take money out?
2 A. He told me then. I wanted money to build and he
3 said if you want a few thousand pounds, he said at
4 any stage, he said, ring me.
5 422 Q. Did he say to you that few thousand would come out
6 of the £25,000 set aside?
7 A. Yes .
8 423 Q. You were clear about that?
9 A. Yes, yes, it wasn't a loan.
10 424 Q. Was that around 1980, when would that have been?
11 A. I am not certain when I first took money out. I
12 think it must have been in the late 1980s because I
13 didn't do anything with
14 Mr. Traynor...(INTERJECTION).
15 425 Q. You were saying it was in relation to, you went in
16 to speak to him about a pension and you were doing
17 work on his house?
18 A. That would be I think the late 1980s.
19 426 Q. The late 1980's?
20 A. Yes .
21 427 Q. At that stage, you knew you could withdraw money
22 from this account?
23 A. Yes .
24 428 Q. You knew there was £25,000 in it?
25 A. Yes .
26 429 Q. How much did you feel you could withdraw. You were
27 receiving no statements so how did you know what
28 state it was in?
29 A. I didn't.
2 A. I didn't.
3 431 Q. So you just withdraw that...(INTERJECTION)?
4 A. Yes, if I got money I was glad to get it. I was as
5 surprised as you were, in fact, by the statements I
6 got.
7 432 Q. At no stage during the period that followed up to
8 time that you got these statements did you know how
9 much money was in it at all?
10 A. No.
11 433 Q. When you went along to Mr. Collery and he gave you
12 these documents, as we saw when we were looking at
13 them there, they were simply headed Ansbacher Cayman
14 A/A2?
15 A. Yes .
16 434 Q. You must have looked at those and said, I am seeing
17 this large sum of money and said, how does this
18 relate to me? I mean who says this is my statement.
19 Did you ask him about that?
20 A. No, I didn't.
21 435 Q. Did you not wonder why something without your name
22 on it...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. I didn't look at the statements while I was with
24 him. I took them away with me.
25 436 Q. When you went home?
26 A. When I went home I went into my accountant and
27 showed them to him.
28 437 Q. Were you satisfied it was yours?
29 A. I didn't know.
1 438 Q. What did you do?
2 A. I presumed it was mine.
3 439 Q. Why did you presume that?
4 A. Because he gave it to me.
5 440 Q. You did not raise the matter with him and say, are
6 you sure these are mine?
7 A. No, frankly when I was with Mr. Collery, it was for
8 a very short period. It was in an evening and I was
9 much more concerned about the problems that were
10 arising out of the account and the
11 Revenue Commissioners. Any question I asked him was
12 about, I said, have you been speaking to the
13 Revenue Commissioners and who do I go to and things
14 like that. That is the questions I asked him.
15 441 Q. But you did not go back to him when you had a chance
16 to look at it?
17 A. No, I tried to find Mr. Collery again and could not
18 get him and rang numbers for a period and could not
19 get him. He seemed to have disappeared.
20 442 Q. What is the state of that particular account now?
21 A. I honestly don't know. I don't know where it is or
22 what.
23 443 Q. You did not close it?
24 A. No, I did nothing.
25 444 Q. When was the last time you saw a balance on it? It
26 is these documents that we have here?
27 A. When I got those, yes.
28 445 Q. You have done nothing in relation to it since?
29 A. Nothing.
1 446 Q. Have you spoken to Mr. Collery in recent times about
2 it?
3 A. I spoke to him once again through an accountant who
4 worked in my office who is a very close fend of
5 mine. I said I would like to get my hands on this
6 man Collery to find out; again, I was more concerned
7 about trying to get this affair righted. He brought
8 me down to another accountant's office, a friend of
9 his and Mr. Collery was there and my real reason
10 for...(INTERJECTION).
11 447 Q. What was this other accountant's office where you
12 met Mr. Collery?
13 A. Somewhere in Maynooth but I can't remember the name
14 of the man. The man who brought me down, his name
15 was Neil Lund. He was a personal accountant working
16 in Stephenson & Gibney and is a very close friend of
17 mine and the reason I wanted to see Mr. Collery was
18 because I was very worried about a letter I received
19 from the Tribunal about this £8,000. I did not know
20 what it was.
21 448 Q. The payment into Amiens?
22 A. Yes and I wanted to find out about this and I spent
23 certainly two or three weeks looking for
24 Mr. Collery. Eventually, this man said, look I know
25 where this guy is, do you want to see him. I went
26 down and I asked him about the account and I didn't
27 get a very satisfactory answer. He said, he thought
28 it was an internal situation, moving money.
29 449 Q. When was it that you saw him about that?
73
1 A. That was, let me see?
2 450 Q. Roughly, was it last year or the year before?
3 A. Last year, some time before the summer last year.
4 451 Q. On that occasion did you speak to
5 him...(INTERJECTION)?
6 A. I didn't.
7 4 52 Q. About your own account?
8 A. I just said -- yes, the other reason I saw him was
9 my accountant and my solicitor both warned me before
10 you go near the Revenue Commissioners, you better
11 make certain that money is around. That they have
12 not taken it away some place. I asked him, I said
13 look, I said, where is this money?
14 453 Q. What did he say?
15 A. He said the money is here, it is in Dublin.
16 454 Q. Did you say, well can I have it?
17 A. No, no I didn't.
18 455 Q. Why not?
19 A. I presumed it was there.
20 456 Q. Where in Dublin did he say it was?
21 A. He didn't tell me.
22 457 Q. And you did not ask?
23 A. No.
24 458 Q. Can you find that out?
25 A. I suppose I could see, yes.
26 459 Q. It would be useful, would it not, if you could?
27 A. Yes.
28 4 60 Q. Would you contact Mr. Collery? Do you know where he
29 can be found now?
74
1 A. I would find him the same way I found him before. I
2 would ask this...(INTERJECTION).
3 461 Q. We can tell you straight away where he is. He works
4 in Kindle Banking?
5 MS. CUMMINS: Kindle Banking in
6 Eastwall.
7 A. In?
8 MS. CUMMINS: In the Eastwall Project.
9 I can give you the
10 address.
11 462 Q. MS. MACKEY: We can give you or your
12 solicitor the address?
13 A. I presumed he was in Maynooth.
14 463 Q. No, he is not. He is working here in Dublin and we
15 can give you an address before you leave today. If
16 you would contact him and if you would ask him where
17 the money is now, if he says it is here, where
18 exactly, getting precise details, a precise amount
19 and a statement?
20 A. Okay.
21 464 Q. And if you would furnish that then to us?
22 A. Yes, certainly.
23 465 Q. That would be grand and I just have one more
24 question and then I am finished. You mentioned
25 again that when you went to see Mr. Traynor to ask
26 him about a pension, you said to him, you would like
27 to invest some of that money is what you said, in
28 pension. Some of what money were you referring to?
29 A. The money that was in this account. The money that

1 he had retained to protect my mews, yes.
2 466 Q. The £25,000 so you knew when you went along to him
3 on that occasion that it was there?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. MACKEY: That is grand. Thank you
6 very much Mr. Gibney.
7 That is all the questions I have.
9 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. GIBNEY BY MS. MACKEY
10
11 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: That is all Mr. Gibney for
12 today then. If you could
13 get the information that we require?
14 A. Could I go over again precisely the information.
15 Mr. Collery, the monies, its whereabouts and the
16 amount of it.
17 MS. MACKEY: To get documents if you
18 have those.
19 A. Get documents, yes. Haughey Boland and those
20 companies?
21 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You were to also ascertain
22 from the Revenue
23 Commissioners whether you paid tax on the interest
24 in the Cayman Islands.
25 A. Okay.
26 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: There may be other matters
27 but we will see from the
28 transcript of the evidence?
29 A. Yes.
76
MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We will require you,
Mr. Gibney, to come in
when the transcript is ready to sign the transcript.
Certainly.
MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well then,
Mr. Gibney. Thank you.
THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED

Jo^cJLV-or
Y A ^ 3LO o o
IStb October 1977.
Chris Dodd recently wrote to Hr. J.D. Traynor to get copies

of Personal Accounts of both San Stephenson and yourself and
the backing funds from tbe 1st October 1978. I have today
written to bin giving bin the Information relative to Sam and
advising that I am writing to you letting you have Information»
covering your own position.
Accordingly I have pleasure in attaching bereto a
Statement aoverlng your Resident Loan Aooount from tbe
1st October 1976 to eloslng and also a note covering tbe
Cayman position from the 1st October eloslng.
Tours sincerely,
P. O'Dwyer,
Loans Officer.
CAYMAN
1st Ootobor 1978 fiftlftllM €142,973.40

%
Slat Doovabtr 1076 lat*mt £ 3,803.71
20th Jaauarj 1977 Int«r«at £ J00.51

2l47t377.62
Aooount eloMd by transfer to

Arthur Oiba«y Loan
om GUINNESS+MAHON LTD
17 College Green Dublin 2 P Q Sox 55A ^lepncne ra2uw
BAKERS
Private and Confidential 14eh October, 1976.
Arthur Gibney, Esq.,

Uossrs. Stephenson Gibney & Associates,
Molyneux House,
67/69 Bride Street,
DUBLIN 3.
Dear Sir,
"We reft-r to the facility letter dated 28th
September, 1976 ard addressed to you by us. We have
been informed by Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited
that they will carry out your instructions in the
following respect.'.'.:
1. Existing hypothecation agreements relating
to Call Deposits made with them will be
cancelled and funds so deposited with them
will be hypothecated against your personal
loan account and that of ilr. Sam Stephenson's
in this Bank only.
2. Existing second lien on Call Deposits will
be cancelled. ^
3. £20,000 is- to be transferred to our order in
connection with Gemini and your Cayman deposits
are to be debited correspondingly.
• .
4. Your Cayman deposits are to' be deb'ited with

£13,954.05 and this amount credited to Mr.
Sam Stephenson's Cayman deposits.
Yours faithfully,
GUINNESS & UAIION LTD.
^ u l p ^ J Jfaut
Appendix XV (45) ( l ) ( d )
i• •
r
Our ref: PO'D/UBL 28th September, 1976.
Arthur Gibney, Esq.

47, Leeaon Place,
Dublin 2.
Dear Sir,
ire are pleased to confirm that Gulnness+Hahon
Limited are preparnd to make a iaoility available to
you, subject to thu following terms and conditions:-
Cl) Borrower: Arthur Gibney. '
(2) Amount: £142,973.40 (One Hundred and Forty
Two Thousand, Nine Hundred and Seventy
Three Pounds Forty Pence) - Irish fi.
(3) Tern: A l l funds advanced are repayable on
demand, but in any case not later
than 80tb September, 1977.
(4) Interest: Ye propose charging interest on tbe
Loan at 12% per annua fixed. Interest
shall be debited to the account and
become payable hjr*you on tbe Slat *
December, 31st March, 80th June and
at maturity, of the Loan.
(8) Drawdown: Tbe funds will be.mad© available to
you by way of'Loan-Account in your
name. Such funds will be drawn by
you on the 1st October, 1976 by
transfer to your existing Loan Account
in repayment thereof.
(6) Liquidity If there shall be any Increase in the
Clause: cost to us of making or maintaining the
Loan by an amount which we deem material
resulting from any changes in the reserve
or liquidity requirements to which we
may be subjected, then we shall be
entitled to call for payment of additional
/over
-t
" Liquidity Clause
(Contd.): interest of such amount as we shall
certify as the amount required to
compensate for such Increased cost
with effect from the date of notification.
You shall be at liberty within one month
after such notification and without
payment of any premium or penalty-to
repay the full amount of. the facility
outstanding together with interest at
the rate applying prior to notification.
' W e enclose herewith a copy of this facility letter -

•for signature by you and return, thereby confirming your
acceptance of the facilities on the terms mentioned.
Yours faithfully,
For GUINNESS+'MAHQH LIMITED
P. O'Dwyer
Loans Officer
B.J. llcliojfghlln
Authorised Signature
STRICTLY PRIVATE k CCWriDZMTIAL
J.P.y. to Ki lath Hay, 1976.
G.McC.
Be; 8AM STKPHffirSOW ftABTHPR GIBKSY
Attached hereto Is a schedule showing the present borrowings by

Sam on his personal Account, Arthur on bis personal Account,
Stephenson GibneyfeAssociates Partnership Account, Stephenson
and Gibney Joint Account, Aileabury Securities Account
(beneficially owned by Sas and Arthur) and Saa Stephenson Vara
Account.
In addition Guinness Uahon London has guaranteed £68,000 to
r.K.C.B. Dublin on their behalf and we, of course, have counter-
guaranteed London.
Saa Stephenson has guaranteed the Account of Avoca Investments
Limited on which a loss of £36,000 is estimated.
The total Involvement could therefore be as follows*
Per Schedule 498,414
Guarantee F.N.C.B. 68,000
Guarantee Avoca 28,000
£888,414
Against this there would be Trust Yunds totalling £332,376 making

a shortfall of £286,038.
The security which we hold la as follows
Title Deeds Ailesbury Securities Limited
estimated to realise not leas than 75,000
Ballynoe Bouse and Farm estimated 145,000
SAM Stephenson Hews . estimated 45,000
Arthur Gibney Hews estimated 30,000
Arthur Gibney Wexford Farm estimated 60,000
Arthur Gibney Clontarf Bouse estimated 9,000
£354,000
Each has signed a joint and several Guarantee limited to £10,000

for Beresford Investments Limited, This has been ignored AS
it is considered nothing will be needed from the Guarantors.
- a-
8AM STSPmwSfflf h ARTHUR GIBWtY 18th Uay, 1976.
Each has alsnad a Guarantee for 12|% of a loaa in Gealni

Securities.
M i \ mNo entries other than g*nh Intaraat/Charges or Crsdita can' be
! a d * poir •pae«tic antaoriaation.
JDT/AJV
s. tissa EHt
taiMi< lW,ri7. IS Dr. tm,m. to nr. 1229,981. (5.Dr.
Ml«kwy SaearltlM. J7J07..M Or. S 37,907. *JJr. t 79,114. 7Z.0r.
Stififcuun Blbaw M^ bueliUi. I K.M1. OB Dr. ( 5MS1. o* or. • fill Jtt. )« Dr.
Stiptwiw ud filbMV. c n op. 1 NJH. 71 Jr. III ,S37. 40 Dr.
hmtaaab t .01. OCT. i si. a er.
£201.48. 7l.Br. fZM.Ml. <4 Dr. MM,414. 40 Dr.
MMWB US Kt 17TH.WW. 1CT

Appendix XV (45) (l)(f)
Hayes & Sons
SOLICITORS
% '
LAVERY HOUSE, EARLSFORT TERRACE, DUBLIN 2

TELEPHONE+ 353-1 -6624747 FAX+ 363-1 -6612163 MMU: hajiwoMeieeure«MiLie DXDUBLIN 173
Office of the Inspectors, 4tfN 8 t

Third Floor,"
Trident House,
Blackrock,
County Dublin.
OwnfimMci HNfi||bnM Datt
AW/MB 13 March 2000
OwrGHent: Arthur Gibney.
Dear Mr. Justice Costello, Ms. Mackey & Mr. Rowan.
We actfor Arthur Gibney of 47 Leeson Place, Dublin 2 who has passed us your letter of
the 20* January.
Firstly we would wishtoapologise on our Client's behalf for the delay in responding.
Our Client's comments will havetobe taken in the context of the fact that many of the
relevant events occurred between twenty and thirty years ago. No documentary evidence
was available to our Client until he was furnished with documentation on two occasions
over the course of the past two years by Guinness & Mahon.
Our Client does not believe that at any time he had either a Caymeu Island or Jersey
Trust
In the late 1960s and early 1970s our Client practised as an Architect in Stephenson
Gibney & Associates. Our Client and Mr. Stephenson were involved in several large site
acquisitions in this period, the largest of the sites acquired being the old Fitzwilliam
Lawn Tennis Club (upon which now stands the I.D.A. building) and some property on
the Appian Way. At that time, Guinness & Mahon was the lead Banker of a group of
Bankers, which financed these transactions.
Our Client did have Caymen deposits in this period which related to his property
development activities.
r*
QfiTINUATION SHEET No. HAYES Sc SONS
- 2 -
"J'
In or about 1974, there was a severe downturn in the property market leaving the Banks
from whom our Client and his partner had borrowed exposed on their security. Our
Client disposed of all of the properties in which he had an interest and in order to make
up the shortfell on borrowings, our Clientfound himself having to sell a house which he
had bought in Enniscarthy, County Wexford and a house at St Laurence's Road,
Clontarf, which his Wife had owned,tosettle his indebtedness with Guinness A Mahon.
At this time our Clients Caymen Deposits were repatriated to pay off these Irish loans.
Copies of the correspondence which our Client received fiom Guinness & Mahon
regarding this are attached and these set out the names of persons with whom our Client
dealt in this period in addition to Mr. Des Traynor at the Bank.
The correspondence does refer to Guinness Mahon Caymen Trust Limited, but as
indicated above our Client does not recall having executed any Trust documentation. He
does recall on one occasion having met Des Trayoor of Guinness & Mahon together with
an Expert who he believes was called Don Reid when he received advice about the use of
Offshore Deposits and Trusts. This would have been in or about the early or mid 1970s.
By the mid 1970s the entire of our Client's assets had been consumed by his liabilities
due to the Banks on loans tofinance property development. At this time in the late
1970s, Mr. Traynor advised Mr. Gibney that in recognition of his co-operation in settling
his indebtedness, Mr. Traynor would set aside a sum of approximately £25,000. At this
time portion of the debts which he had incurred tfah Mr. Stephenson remained
outstanding. Mr. Stephenson disputed portion of the debt and made settlement over a
longer period than Mr. Gibney. Mr. Stephenson continued to make payments from the
indebtedness until some time in the early 1980s. Our Client understood that had Mr.
Stephenson not dealt with his side of the liabilities due, the £25,000 referred to by Mr.
Traynor would have been appropriated by the Bankfor debt reduction.
Some time in the early 1980s Mr. Traynor informed our Client that the amount set aside
by Mr. Traynor/Guinness & Mahon Bank still existed. Our Client was never advised at
to the manner in which these funds were held, never received a statement or Annual
Certificates of Interest, was never advised that the funds were off-shore and nor did he
receive any correspondence or information whatsoever in relation to these monies.
The first occasion on which our Client received correspondence relating to the monies
was when he was notified by Guinness & Mahon of the Moriarty Tribunal on the 16* of
January 1998. It took our Client from January until March of 1998 to establish the
otfrIt<UATION SHEET No. HAYES IS SONS
-3-
..J
person in Guinness ft Mahonfrom whom he could obtain information relative to his

account. In March 1998 he met Mr. Collery who handed him a number of statements,
copies of which are attached. These are the only statements our CKent has received. He
subsequently received the attached booklet of documentsfrom Guinness & Mahon which
contain the correspondence relating to the closure of our Client's Caymen Account in
1976, other loans taken out by him and some unrelated matters.
With regard to the specific queries at page 10 of Appendix C:
a. In relation to the earlier Account, our Client was informed of the service by Mr.
Des Traynor and Mr. Don Reid. Our Client is unaware of Mr. Raid's address and
no correspondence exists other than thatfamished herewith. Our Client believes
that Mr. Reid was a partner in Stokes Kennedy Crowley, whichfirm advised Mr.
Traynor. As stated above our Client was unaware that the second offshore
deposit had been set 19. He has no documentation relating to it other than as
furnished and believes that it was set up by Mr. Des Traynor.
b. & c.Our Client can not give any further information or documentation in relation to the
first account other than as set out above. Our Client cannot be specific as to
when the second account was set up but it appears to have been sometimein the
mid 1980s. No sums were deposited by him. "He has no further documentation
other than that which has been furnished herewith.
d. In relation to thefirst account, all transactions on the account were conducted by
Mr. Traynor, who had an interest in the property transactions conducted by our
Client Withdrawals in relation to the second account were effected by our Client
contacting Mr. Traynor. To be best of our Client's recollection most withdrawals
. receivedfrom Mr. Traynor were in cash. After Mr. Traynor's death, our Client
contacted Mr. Traynor's secretary, Mrs. Joan Williams who advised him that he
should contact a Mr. Collery. Our Client could not contact Mr. Collery and
ultimately contacted Sam Field Corbett whoformerly worked in Guinness &
Mahon. Money withdrawn after Mr. Traynor's death was usually in cash
although on one occasion a withdrawal was by means of a cheque drawn on the
Irish Intercontinental Bank.
r*
ONTINUATION SHEET No. HAYESfc SONS
-4-
..J
e. Not to our Client's knowledge. Our Client didreceivea queryfrom the Moriaxty
Tribunal by letter dated 10 July 1998 relating to an account in the name of
Amiens S/L No. 2 Account. A copy of our response thereto dated 7* August
1998 is attached.
f. A-A2. '
With regard to Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited, our Client was unaware of this
service except to say as stated above that one of the cheques which he received was
drawn on the Irish Intercontinental Bank.
With regard to item 4 on page 12, our Client did have loansfrom Guinness & Mahon for
the purpose of his practice as an Architect at 20 Harcourt Street. These loans, however,
were unsecured and copies of the documentation furnished to our Client are attached
together with handwritten statement showing details of interest and repayments made
from our Client's Practice.
With regard to item 5 on page 12, our Client did noj have any dealings with Irish
Intercontinental Bank or Kreditbank N.V. other than as stated above.
With regard to item 6 on page 13, our Client did not applyfor Exchange Control in
relation to any transactions. He is unaware as to whether or not any other person so
applied.
If any clarification of the matters set out above is required, please do not hesitate to
contact us.
Yours faithfiilly,
A N S B A C H E R LIMITED
P.O. Box 887 Qrand Cayman British Waal Indies
Talaptiona No. 8—4653/4
Afisbacher Limited Telax CP 305 Cabla Addraaa Qulnnaat
baywn
A/A2
J ACCOUNT NUMBER 8000)025

BALANCES SHOWN AflE IN:
^ PAGE
starling
37
1/10/92 30/ 9/92 90431.96
51/10/92 98431.96
s CARRIED FORWARD /
4
L-W.WJAIJ.lH.lg^.i.llhlf A N S B A C H E R LIMITED
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British Waal Indfaa
• ^nsbacher United
Telephone No. 9—4853/4
Telex C P 305 Cable Addraaa Qulnnaaa
caywu
J ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001023

BALANCES SHOWN AM> IN: starling
PMC 28
10/11/93 BBOUOHTFOBWAIW 98431.96

11/12/92 31/12/92 I n t a r a a t t o 31/12/92 1828.42
31/12/92 100260.38
CARRIED FORWARD
n
A N S B A C H E R LIMITED
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British Wast Indiaa
Talaphons No. 0—4863(4
«
IILTON SOSS Telex CP 309 Cable Address Qulnness
A/A2
L J ACCOUNT NUMBER 8000X029 PAOE
BALANCES SHOWN A M Mfc s t a r l i n g
>4/01/93 BflOUQHT FORWARD 0.00

14/01/93 31/12/92 LODGED 100260.38
>4/01/93 31/12/92 IK1000 1075.00
il/01/93 CARRIED FORWARD

99183.38 j
STATEMENT OF ACCOUNT
[HAM
HAMILTON BOSS
A/A2
ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001029 P A Q E 22
BALANCES SHOWN ARE i t «tar ling
31/03/97 BROUGHT FWWTABD 107011.83

01/04/97 01/04/97 IEP4000 3910.00
30/04/97 103101.82
CARRIED FORWARD
Guinness & Mahon Ltd., /
17, College Green, /
DUHLIN. 2. —
Dear Sirs,
- In conalderationof your Placing at the
disposal of BEBISIOKD iKVlB'BlfiiTS LIMITED 29, Molesworth
Street, Dublin, (hereinafter referred to as
"the Principals", which expression shall include the
successors in title to the Principals) a loan facility
of up to £72,500 (seventy-t»o thousand, fiv® hundred
pounds) on terms and conditions set out in a letter
dated 5th January, 1970 addressed by you to the Principala,
we the undersigned L.D. McGonagle, K.P. O'Rellly-Hyland,
J.D. Traynor, J.J. Mnnegan, S. stephenaon and Arthur
Gibney hereby guarantee to you that in the event of the
Principals failing for any reaaon whatsoever to place
you in funds, sufficient to repay whan due any loan
or loana made or liabilities incurred under such loan
facility or failing for any reaaon whatsoever to pay
you as and when the same ought to be paid any commission,
interest, other charges and expenses, including legal
cos.ts, payable to'you under the terms of such loan
facility, we ahall forthwith jn demand remit to you the
full amount of every loan or loans made or liabilities
incurred then o u t s t a n d i n g , together with an amount-equal
to all commlasion, interest, *ther charges and expenses,
including legal costs, unpaid as aforesaid PROVIDED
ALWAYS that the liabilities enforceable against us
respectively under this guarantee shall not exceed in
total 85% of any loss incurred by you in consequence of
your loan and shall not exceed in the case of any one
of us the sum of £10,000.
This g u a r a n t e e shall notjie considered as

satisfied by any i n t e r m e d i a t e payment.or aatiafaction
of the whole or any part of any sum or sums of money o w i n g
to you aa aforesaid, but shall be a continuing security
and shall extend to cover any sum or sums of money which
shall for the time being constitute the balance due from
the Principals to you under such loan facility
(Including all c o m m i s s i o n , interest, other charges and
expenses, including legal costs, payable to you by the
Principals) and any admiasion or acknowledgment in
writing by the p r i n c i p a l s or any person authorised by
the Principals of the amount of the Indebtedness of the
Principals to you shall be binding and conclusive against
us or our respective e x e c u t o r s and legal personal
representatives.
We undertake this guarantee as principal
debtora and not merely as this guarantee
and your rights under it shall not be prejudiced or
affected by your enlarging, reaucing, Q r v a r y i n B t h e
aforesaid loan facility, or by your holding now or
hereafter any collateral, or otjar security for all or
for any part of the monies nereoy guaranteed or by your
varying, releasing or omitting or neglecting to enforce
any of the terms and condition^ff auch loan facility
*""IJI "
• r
f indulgence to or making any other arrangements with

the Principals or any person liable on any securities
held or to be held by you.
In the event of the Principals going into
liquidation we shall not prove in competition with you •
in such liquidation in respect of any debt due from the
Principals to you as aforesaid, but shall give you the
benefit of any proof which we may be entitled to make
in respect of any part of such debt paid by us until
you have received the full amount of the said debt.
1
No change whatsoever in the constitution
of your Company or in the constitution of the Principals
shall Impair or discharge our liability under this
guarantee.
Appendix XV (46) Mr Francis P Glennon
Francis Glennon.
a) Letter of 7 January 1991 from Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
b) Letter of 10 January 1991 from Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and

Mahon.
c) Letter of 5 March 1990 from Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
d) Letter of 2 April 1990 from JD Traynor to Guinness and Mahon.
e) Letter of 24 July 1990 from Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
f) Letter of 12 October 1990 from Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and

Mahon.
g) Letter of 4 December 1990 from Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and

Mahon.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Francis P Glennon.
a) Letter of 17 August 2001 from Arthur Cox to Mary Cummins, Solicitor to

the Inspectors.
Ansbacher l i m i t e d
A Member of tht Henry Ansbacher Hcldbtgt PLC Merchant Amkbig
p O Box 187. Grand Caywan, British Wait India

Please reply to: Phone: d m MMCS3/4
42 Fitzwilliam Square. Tale* CP 4X3
Fuc (S09) 949-7946
Dublin 2. (809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
7th January, 1991.

Gareth Logan, Esq., Tfll
Irish intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Gareth,
I would be grateful if you could arrange to let me have
for collection from your Reception Desk a Sterling Draft for
Stgx£S8Q ,OOOiOO payable to MfK»Waltk GletiWJn.
Please debit the cost to our Account No.01087-027-81V O <SO\«.
%
cOC ts J^Mof^—ff
Yours sincerely, * J 0 ^
c
T
Pi Travnor,
JDT/AJW
Rvfe
A Mtmbtr cftlm Hmvrf Ambaetw HolOngt
P.O. Box 887, Grand Cqmu, Brfetah West India

Please reply to: FIiom: (109) 949-4653/4
42 PTtrwDliam Square, TOnc CP 4303
Fix (809) 949-7944
Dublin 2. (809) 949-3267
Tel: 765144/763065
Rue 612035
10th January, 1991

C. Waits, Eaq.,
Guinness A Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Chris,
Please transfer sbaoher Limited Account
No.13154602 to 's Currant Account.
Yours sincerely.
"J.D. Traynor.
JDT/AJW
01 612035
05/03/90 15s16
tLCMmbm* snay
Please reply to: P A I m K7. Onatf Ctyma. Mtak « m i

42 Fltrwilliam Square,
(WW «»/«
MkCTIM
Dublin 2. Ituc M»-7946
Tel: 765144/763063 <KWM»-5397
Fax- 612035
5th March, 1990.

M. D a v i d H u m p h r i e s , K s q . #
S « n i o r Manager - O p e r a t i o n s ,
Rn1nn<»ft* ft Mahon L i m i t e d ,
17 C o l l a g e G r e e n ,
DUBLIN 2 .
Dear David,
Could you plttAsa a r r a n g e t o have a v a i l a b l e f o r o o l l e c t i o n

from G u i n n e s s a Mahon t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g I R E 3 , 0 0 0 i n c a s h . .-i
The d e b i t s h o u l d U*» t o K e n t f o r d S e c u r i t i e s A c c o u n t No
12460002 • T ^
c o u l d y o u a l s o ple*!tft a r r a n g e t o h a v e a v a i l a b l e f o r c o l l e c t i o n
a t t h e same t i m e a S t e r l i n g d r a f t f o r 3 6 2 , 0 0 0 p a y a b l e t o
- The d e b i t i n t h i s e a s e s h o u l d be
Ansbacher L i m i t e d Account No.13154502.
AS b o t h i t e m s a r e w a n t e d u r g e n t l y , t o s a v e t i m e
o f F r a n k G l e n n o n L i m i t e d w i l l c a l l t o t h e Bank t o
oil t e n t t h * c a s h a n d d r a f t . *
Yours sincerely,
r -
i n i z K a i
JDT/AJW
To g i v e n o t i c e o f t h i s r e t i r e m e n t a copy of t h i s l e t t e r is
t>«lng s e n t b y Any p r o b l e m s - p l e a s e ' p h o n e .
«t 7«144/763066 42 FITZWILLIAM SQUARE
êsknifi*: 612035
DUBLIN 2.
2nd A p r i l , 1990
M. D a v i d H u m p h r i e s , E s q . ,
S e n i o r Manager - O p e r a t i o n s ,
G u i n n e s s ft Mahon L i m i t e d ,
17 C o l l e g e G r e e n ,
DUBLIN 2 .
Dear David,
Could you p l e a s e a r r a n g e for the transfer of IRES,000
to
A l l i e d I r i a h Banks,
12 S t . S t e p h e n ' s G r e e n ,
Dublin 2,
f o r c r e d i t o f t h e A c c o u n t of
F r a n c i a P. Glennon, Eaq.,
Account No.10387035.
T h e d e b i t s h o u l d b e t o Kentford S e c u r i t i e s L i m i t e d Account
No.12460002.
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Traynor
JDT/AJW
OJbM
Ansbacher Limited
A Uwmbtr oft>» Hwnry Ambacbtr Holdfngt PLC Utrchanr Banking Group
P.O. Bn SS7, Gnwd Cayman. British Wot lndfea

Please reply to: Phone (109) 949-4633/4
42 Fltzwflliam Square, Tatac CP 4303
Fax (109) 949-7946
Dublin 2 (809)949-3267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
24th July, 1990

G u i n n e s s * Mahon L i m i t e d ,
DUBLIN 2 .
Dear David,
Could you p l e a s e a r r a n g e t o t r a n s f e r IR£5,000.00 to
A l l i e d I r i s h Banks
12 S t . S t e p h e n ' s Green,
Dublin 2,
f o r c r e d i t of t h e Account of
F r a n c i s P . Glennon
Account No.10387035
P l e a s e arrange t o d e b i t t h e S t e r l i n g c o s t t o Ansbacher Limited

Yours sincerely.
JDT/AJW
— ^ -|f7Ansbacher Limited
fLC Mtrchmti Banking Orovp
(Quad Ctymu, MtWi Wat Indiai

Please reply to: ik (MS) 949-4643/4
Trioc CP 4305
42 Fitzvrilliam S<j Hue (109) 940-7946
Dublin 2. (•09) 94M267
Td: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
12th October, 1990..
G u i n n e s s , A Mahon L i m i t e d ,
DUBLIN2.
Dear David,
Could you p l e a s e a r r a n g e t o t r a n s f e / £ 2 , 5 0 0 . 0 0 from A n s b a c h e r
S n i t e d Account No.13154602 t o t h ^ C u r r e n t Account of
Mr. F . Glennon.
Yours sincere
j.D. Traynor
JDT/AJW
ibacher Limited
A Menbtr gfth* Bmry Aiabochtr
XC Uttthm* BankIng Group
Ctjnu, British Wat tafia
Pleasereplyto: f Hwaos (»8) 949-4633/4
42 Fitzwffliam Sqnjurct Tata CP 4309
Dublin 2. I Buc (MS) 9494946
009) 9494367
Tel: 765144/763065 I _ ^ .
Fax: 612035 FT Z ^ ^ * * !
1
I ** * — —1««-»''lunaiVi j
4th Dei
M. David Humphries, Esq.,
Senior Manager - Operations,
Guinness A Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
I -I DPBLIN 2.
Dear David,
Could you please arrange the risfer of Stg.£2,500 from
Ansbacher Limited Account No. \54602 to the Account of
Mr. Frank Glennon.
Tours sincerely.
J.D. Traynor.
V
i
JDT/AJW
T
ARTHUR COX
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Direct Dial: 618 0530
17th August, 2001
STRICTLY PRIVATE & CONFIDENTIAL
Ms Mary Cummins 7
Solicitor
Office of the Inspectors Appointed
by Order of the High Court to
Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd
3rd Floor Trident House
Blackrock
Co Dublin
Re: Francis P. Glennon, deceased
Dear Ms Cummins,
I refer to the letter from the Inspectors dated 31 st July addressed to Mr David A Glennon and
I wish to notify the Inspectors that my clients, David A Glennon and Frank Glennon Limited,
wish to reply to the preliminary conclusion reached by the Inspectors in relation to Francis P.
Glennon, deceased.
Firstly, on a point of clarification, my clients would request that all references to the late Mr
Glennon should read "Francis P. Glennon, deceased", in order to distinguish him from Mr
Frank Glennon (junior), one of his sons.
My clients consider that the statement of preliminary findings of the Inspectors (enclosed
with the Inspectors' letter) and/or the inferences that may be drawn therefrom, as presently
worded, are adverse to the interests, good name and/or reputation of the late Mr Glennon and
Frank Glennon Limited.
It is my clients' opinion that the available evidence clearly shows that the late Mr Glennon
was not a resident of Ireland at the relevant times in relation to this matter, having left Ireland
in 1984 approximately, with Exchange Control clearance from the Central Bank of Ireland
and with clearance from the Revenue Commissioners. Therefore, it is my clients' strongly
held view that any statement of a finding that the late Mr Glennon was a client of Ansbacher
should include a statement to the effect that at all relevant times Mr Glennon was not resident
in Ireland and had transferred his assets abroad with clearance from the Central Bank of
Ireland and the Revenue Commissioners.
(AMI ? O'DW'YI K 1'U I>k McUii'in.ix
I AI I.III I\ IAN A. S K H T lonx G. I:L-II |)AXII:I. K. O'COXNOR Pirn-IR ROIIIKT ISOI.TOX JOHN V O'DWYMR RONAX WALSH HI'OI-XK P FAXXIXC
UONOGII CKOWI I:Y JOHN S.W'AI.SII MHTIAU. MIAUIIX JO~I:I'II I.I;YI>I:N WIII.IAM JOHNSTON I:I\:I:XI: MCCAIHI: N'ILIUH.AS G. MUORI-: DI-XI.AN HAYLS
HA\ IN (VDONOIIOI: COI M I)I\;I; W C 0 ' ? N 11\AN I?AIIN. I OI IA JOHX MI AMI: CONOR MIDOXNIT.I. PATRIC K MCGOVLRX GRAIXXL HLNXL^SY SIUMTS GIVLN COLIN BYRNH
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HI 1/mu:i ii IIOTIIS i J i Xmiii ULKKL WN ' 11 \M L)\V ANDKIVI I.INNY|onx Mrxrox PATRICK O'HRIHX OKI A O'CONNOR BRIAN O'CORMAK MARK SAI'NDKKS
C'OXÎIIANI?; VlX(T NI W'\l ~ll 1 )l XI? J. UI IvVTN Cl I L I \U II )l I I.\M11 I ON NIAI .1. Ml' I.AlII IN I)R. YVOXNL Sl'ANNLLI. 1>R. RoitLRT C-
l'ARK
ARTHUR COX Page 2
My clients are also strongly of the view that the reference to "Frank Glennon Limited" in the
third paragraph of the letter of 5 th March 1990 from J D Traynor to David Humphries of
Guinness & Mahon Limited should be deleted (in the same way as references to other names
have already been deleted by the Inspectors from the second paragraph and third paragraph
respectively of that letter).
It is submitted by my clients that the above alterations to the statement of preliminary

findings of the Inspectors are required in order to protect the interests, good name and
reputation of Frank Glennon Limited, a long-established company which continues to do
business under the name "Frank Glennon" and to which substantial goodwill attaches. These
changes are also required in order to protect the good name of the late Mr Glennon. My
clients feel that it is not unreasonable to request the Inspectors to make these changes in order
to more fairly reflect the evidence in relation to the late Mr Glennon in the context of the
Inspectors' investigation and their report, which most likely will be made public, in due
course.
My clients would respectfully request the Inspectors to make the changes referred to above in
their statement of findings which will form the basis of their report to the High Court (insofar
as the late Mr Glennon is concerned).
I should be grateful to hear from you further in this regard, in due course.
Yours sincerely,
r
A
RONAN WALSH
Appendix XV (47) Mr Paul Goode
Paul Goode.
a) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 1 June 1978.
b) Undated letter from Orbit Investments Limited to Mr Paul Goode.

TOi ANNA DOUD.
FROMi T.R.L.
REi ORBIT INVESTMENTS LTD.,
Anna,
Tha beneficiary of thia Company la now a Mr. Paul Goode. All

correspondence to Mr.Goode moat be handsd to Annstte Bssonsr
for posting. All other aspsota of the Orbit acconnta remain
unchanged.
ORBIT INVESTMENTS LTD
Tekpheiw? 9-WJ3/4 P.O. Box 817
Trim CPttS Grind Cayman
OyrnM hMi
Brtthh Wnt Indies
Paul Goode Esq.,

Haras da Clarbec,
14130, Pont L'Eveque,
FRANCE
Deer Mr. Goode,

ORBET INVESTMENTS Is giving the permission to the trainer Jeen-Miehel
de CHOUBERSKY to sell the horse PUTTING and to endorse the carte d'immatrlcula-
tlon.
Yours sincerely,
Appendix XV (48) Mr Christopher Goosen
Christopher Goosen.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Christopher Goosen dated 12 July 2000.
b) Letter of 30 July 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
c) Letter of 15 October 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.

d) Letter of 12 December 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and
Mahon.
e) Letter of 17 September 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and

Mahon.
1) Ansbacher Cayman Limited current a/c statement of 4 November 1996.
g) Ansbacher Cayman Limited current a/c statement of 22 April 1996.
h) Ansbacher Cayman Limited current a/c statement of 18 December 1995.
i) Ansbacher Cayman Limited current a/c statement of 28 September 1995.
j) Ansbacher Cayman Limited current a/c statement of 11 August 1995.
k) Ansbacher Cayman Limited current a/c statement of 31 May 1995.
1) Ansbacher Cayman Limited current a/c statement of 27 March 1995.
m) Ansbacher Cayman Limited current a/c statement of 1 October 1994.
n) Cayman International Bank & Trust Co Limited current a/c statement of 8

August 1994.
o) Cayman International Bank & Trust Co Limited current a/c statement of

20 June 1994.
p) Cayman International Bank & Trust Co Limited current a/c statement of

11 April 1994.
q) Cayman International Bank & Trust Co Limited current a/c statement of 7

February 1994.
Cayman International Bank & Trust Co Limited current a/c statement of
30 December 1993.
Cayman International Bank & Trust Co Limited current a/c statement of

18 October 1993.
Ansbacher Cayman Limited current a/c statement of 11 May 1992.
Ansbacher Cayman Limited current a/c statement of 15 February 1991.
Statement of Mr Christopher Goosen dated 27 October 2000.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. CHRIS GOOSEN
UNDER OATH
ON WEDNESDAY 12TH JULY 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
MS. MACKEY BL
Interviewee: MR. CHRIS GOOSEN

INDEX
WITNESS EXAMINATION
MR. C. GOOSEN MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

1 THE EXAMINATION COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON WEDNESDAY,
2 12TH JULY 2000:
5 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Goosen, we will start
6 our interview then. I
7 should explain to you that this is not a Court
8 hearing. It is not a Tribunal. It is an
9 investigation.
10
11 My name is Declan Costello and on my right is
12 Ms. Mackey. As you know from our correspondence we
13 have been appointed Inspectors by The Court here in
14 Dublin.
15
16 I should explain Mr. Goosen that we have these
17 interviews under oath and I ask our solicitor now,
18 Ms. Cummins, to administer the oath to you.
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
4
1 MR. CHRIS GOOSEN, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AS
2 FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO:
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Goosen, have you
5 got there in papers the
6 letter, the original letter, that we wrote to you,
7 the first letter we wrote to you?
8 A. I think the only letter, yes.
9 1 Q. On the 4th...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. Is it the 8th June?
11 2 Q. There is one of the 4th May?
12 A. Sorry.
13 3 Q. Have you got that?
14 A. No. No, I don't.
15 MS. CUMMINS: There is a copy of it
16 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 1).
17 A. Thank you.
18 4 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Would you just look at
19 letter of 4th May? Have
20 you got it there?
21 A. Yes.
22 5 Q. Would you just look at Appendix C of that letter.
23 It is about the tenth page I think. Have you got
24 that, appendix C?
25 A. Yes, I think so, yes.
26 6 Q. Do you see we asked you that:
27 "You should provide a full and detailed

statement of all the dealings with the
28 Company..."
29
5
1 That you had with the Company. That is with
2 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited and then later
3 called Ansbacher.
4 "...had with you, whether directly or

indirectly. This should include
5 details of the manner in which services
were supplied by the Company, the dates
6 on which they were supplied, the names
of the person or persons who acted on
7 behalf of the Company in supplying them
and the names of your professional
8 advisers..."
10 You did not comply with that request Mr. Goosen?
11 A. But I wrote to you saying that I didn't have
12 anything.
13 7 Q. No. You wrote saying that you did not have any
14 correspondence. However, we were asking you for a
15 full and detailed statement?
16 A. Well, I think that is my statement with respect,
17 that I don't have anything.
18 8 Q. What do you mean? We are not asking you what you
19 have?
20 A. Yes.
21 9 Q. We are asking you for all the dealings with the
22 Company?
23 A. Sorry. I may read it again. Well, I must say that
24 I didn't particularly understand that you were
25 expecting to get a statement from me there.
26 10 Q. Did you not?
27 A. But, as I have said in my letter to you now and why
28 I am here, I am happy to help in any way that I can.
29 11 Q. Yes?
6
1 A. Although I doubt...(INTERJECTION).
2 12 Q. You doubt what?
3 A. I doubt that I have -- I really doubt that I have
4 any information relevant to you.
5 13 Q. First of all, you did have dealings with
6 Ansbacher Cayman, did you not?
7 A. The company that I was involved with I believe --
8 well, had dealings with Guinness & Mahon in Dublin.
9 14 Q. Yes?
10 A. There is no doubt about that.
11 15 Q. What about its subsidiary in the Cayman Islands?
12 A. I think that through Guinness & Mahon Dublin there
13 were dealings with Guinness & Mahon in the Cayman
14 Islands but I really don't know much about that.
15 16 Q. Perhaps, now that you know what we want Mr. Goosen
16 you might make a statement now to us as to what your
17 personal dealings were with Guinness & Mahon in the
18 Cayman Island company?
19 A. I have no personal dealings.
20 17 Q. You have no personal dealings?
21 A. No.
22 18 Q. What about the company Super Ser, did it have any
23 dealings?
24 A. Are you familiar with my position within Super Ser?
25 19 Q. No, I am going to ask you about that in a moment?
26 A. Yes.
27 20 Q. Before that I would like you just to assist us in a
28 general statement. Did Super Ser have dealings with
7
2 21 Q. Not to your knowledge.
3 A. The company's dealings were with Guinness & Mahon.
4 22 Q. In Dublin?
5 A. In Dublin, yes.
6 23 Q. It had no dealings to your knowledge with
8 A. No.
9 24 Q. Did it come...(INTERJECTION)?
10 A. And certainly none that I was involved in.
11 25 Q. No, I am not talking about involved in?
12 A. Yes.
13 26 Q. I am talking about your knowledge of whether the
14 Company, which we will come to in a moment, had any
15 dealings with it? Did you not know about that?
16 A. No.
17 27 Q. Did it come as a surprise to you then to be told
18 that Super Ser Limited might have been involved
19 itself as a Company with the Cayman Islands?
20 A. I don't think that Super Ser Limited was involved
21 with Cayman Islands.
22 28 Q. I see. You personally...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. If I could just say to you Sir that I was --
24 although I was a Director my part was really based
25 in the UK.
26 29 Q. We will come to that in a moment. I just want to
27 get a general picture first Mr. Goosen. You
28 personally yourself had no dealings, you say, with
29 the Company?
8
2 30 Q. Perhaps, then you might just give me a summary
3 Mr. Goosen of your involvement in this Country with
4 Super Ser Limited and any other company that you may
5 have been involved with here in Ireland?
6 A. Certainly. I am not pin sharp on dates, you know.
7 I believe that the dates -- I have tried to imagine
8 what it was you wanted from me and I have thought
9 about the dates that would be relevant and, as I
10 said, I might not be strictly accurate because I
11 haven't been working from any records or anything.
12 31 Q. Yes?
13 A. But I think that Super Ser in Ireland probably
14 started about 1967 and I was a co-founder of it, in
15 that I was a shareholder and a Director, although I
16 wasn't the boss by any stretch of the imagination.
17 I sort of worked for it until 1970 when I moved to
18 the UK.
19 32 Q. Yes?
20 A. When I moved to the UK I started a company up there
21 that was a wholly owned subsidiary of Super Ser
22 Limited, the Irish company, and really from that
23 moment I had no direct dealings with Super Ser in
24 Ireland.
25 33 Q. Yes?
26 A. The company in the UK was Super Ser (UK) Limited and
27 then at a later date, but I can't be sure of the
28 date, somewhere between 1970 and 1978, there was
29 another UK company called Impact Heaters Limited. I
9
1 can't really remember whether UK was in that one.
2 Impact Heaters Limited I think it was. I don't
3 think there was a UK in it.
4 34 Q. Yes?
5 A. So, that is my involvement with it, you know. So,
6 in that time frame, from 1970, I was in the UK
7 working for Super Ser Heaters UK Limited.
8 35 Q. Yes?
9 A. Until I think 1981 or until 1979 -- sorry, until I
10 think 1979. I think I left the company but I did
11 then subsequently come back to it for a short time.
12 I think it finally ceased, went out of existence,
13 in 1983. I really have no idea about, you know,
14 what particular time frame you are specifically
15 interested in.
16 36 Q. Yes?
17 A. But presumably it is somewhere in that span.
18 37 Q. Was the company incorporated in Ireland as
19 Super Ser Limited?
20 A. The original company was, yes.
21 38 Q. Yes. Who were your solicitors, do you remember?
22 A. No, Sir, I don't.
23 39 Q. You do not remember. Had you lived in Ireland
24 yourself Mr. Goosen?
25 A. Until that time, yes.
26 40 Q. You had lived in Ireland?
27 A. Yes .
28 41 Q. Had you been brought up in Ireland? Were you Irish?
29 A. Yes, I was. Well, I was born in Northern Ireland.

2 A. Went to school right here in Blackrock.
3 43 Q. Yes?
4 A. And I worked in Dublin in the motor cycle trade for
5 a period of time.
6 44 Q. Yes?
7 A. And then I left Ireland for the motor cycle crazy
8 profession, of motor cycle racing, for I think three
9 years and then returned to start that business, the
10 Super Ser business, when I had enough of it.
11 45 Q. Yes. You started with Mr. Lindsay?
13 46 Q. Did you each have a 50% interest in the company?
14 A. Yes, it was 50/50 although he had the -- I think
15 "casting vote" is the terminology of it.
16 47 Q. Who were the Directors of the company?
17 A. I think just the two of us.
18 48 Q. Yes. The business was started in 1967 then, you
19 think about that time?
20 A. Yes, I think so.
21 4 9 Q. When you moved to England did you come back to
22 Ireland for Director's meetings?
23 A. No, no. When I moved to England I really moved to
24 England but I had nothing to do with the running of
25 the company here as such although I may have
26 been...(INTERJECTION).
27 50 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION) ?
28 A. I may have been back on occasions. My parents still
29 lived here.
11
2 A. And I may have been back on occasions but very brief
3 visits.
4 52 Q. Did you remain a 50% shareholder in the Company?
5 A. Yes.
6 53 Q. Yes. Did anybody else come in as a Director of the
7 Company or did you and Mr. Lindsay remain as
8 Directors of the Company?
9 A. To my knowledge nobody else came in. I think we
10 remained.
11 54 Q. Yes. The UK Company that was formed, that was a
12 subsidiary of the Irish company?
13 A. Yes.
14 55 Q. So that any profit it made went into the parent
15 Company, the Dublin Company?
16 A. Yes.
17 56 Q. Would the same apply to the other one, the
18 Impact Heaters Limited?
19 A. Yes.
20 57 Q. It was also one?
21 A. Yes.
22 58 Q. Did you then reside in England since then?
23 A. Yes.
24 59 Q. Is that the position?
25 A. Yes, indeed.
26 60 Q. You became a taxpayer in England, not in Ireland?
27 A. Yes, indeed.
28 61 Q. Did you...(INTERJECTION)?
29 A. Sorry to interrupt Sir.
12
2 A. The companies also paid tax in England obviously.
3 63 Q. The companies that were incorporated in England?
4 A. Yes.
5 64 Q. Yes, of course. Did you take up residency in
6 England then?
7 A. Yes.
8 65 Q. Where did you reside Mr. Goosen?
9 A. In the total sort of 30 year period I have lived in
10 three houses.
11 66 Q. Yes?
12 A. Firstly in Dowridge, at 11 Earlswood Road, Dowridge
13 and then -- I think that was for about three years
14 or something like that, two or three years. Then at
15 Furlong Field, Tamworth on Arden.
16 67 Q. Yes?
17 A. For I think 12 years approximately.
18 68 Q. Yes?
19 A. And then where I live now, where I have been for
20 15 years.
21 69 Q. Yes. When Super Ser finished its business in
22 Ireland, did you have any business in Ireland to
23 come back to?
24 A. No, Sir.
25 70 Q. Had you any reason then to come back to Ireland from
26 then on? Had you family still to visit?
27 A. Only until my mother died.
28 71 Q. When was that?
29 A. About five years ago.
13
1 72 Q. Yes. You would come back to visit her then from
2 time to time. Were these regular visits?
3 A. Not really.
4 73 Q. Once a year or so?
5 A. Too irregular really.
6 74 Q. Yes?
7 A. She used to visit me rather than me visit her.
8 75 Q. How often would you come back to Ireland then after
9 Super Ser finished?
10 A. I think there was probably a period of four or five
11 years when I didn't at all. I would think may be
12 really in that -- I can really only recall about
13 three visits to Ireland.
14 76 Q. Yes. I see. From what you are indicating to us
15 Mr. Goosen you would have had little or no hand in
16 running the Irish business from 1970's, is that
17 right?
18 A. That is so, yes.
19 77 Q. Before 1970 had you assisted in running the
20 business, this is when you went to England?
21 A. Before 1970 I have got to say I really did run it,
22 the day-to-day running of it.
23 78 Q. Yes?
24 A. In that I think I was the only employee of it. When
25 it started up it was Mr. Lindsay's idea, a very good
26 idea. He was in -- I had previously worked for him
27 in the motor cycle trade. He was an importer of
28 Suzuki motor cycles and I was a representative for
29 him. He was still very involved in the motor cycle

1 thing and to begin with this business was very very
2 small.
3 79 Q. Yes?
4 A. How it began was basically I had one heater in the
5 back of a car and went and sold it.
6 80 Q. Yes?
7 A. And that was how it started.
8 81 Q. Were you an employee of the Company?
9 A. Yes.
10 82 Q. You were actually paid your wage by the Company?
11 A. Yes.
12 83 Q. Was he an employee and did he get paid a wage or did
13 he give...(INTERJECTION)?
14 A. I can't honestly say.
15 84 Q. You cannot say?
16 A. I don't recall.
17 85 Q. Who...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. I doubt it because to begin with at that stage, we
19 are just talking about the first three years.
20 86 Q. Yes?
21 A. He didn't really work in it.
22 87 Q. I am just wondering who looked after the financial
23 end and the administration end of the Company; did
24 you or he or both?
25 A. I can tell you that when we started I imported the
26 product. I sold the product. I invoiced the
27 product. I collected the money for the product and
28 at that stage the bookkeeping was done by the office
29 of the motor cycle business really. I think they
15
1 did it to start with.
2 88 Q. What motor cycle business was that?
3 A. Lindsay Motors.
4 89 Q. Mr. Lindsay's?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 90 Q. Yes?
7 A. Yes, and then, you know, it was a business with good
8 potential but obviously even better potential in
9 the UK. So, I went to the UK, or initially went to
10 the UK, to take a look and see what could be done to
11 introduce it there.
12 91 Q. I am just wondering about your contact with
13 Guinness & Mahon here in Ireland Mr. Goosen. When
14 did you make contact, personally yourself, with
15 Guinness & Mahon here in Ireland?
16 A. I think when we very first started initially the
17 Bank -- sorry, it is not answering your question
18 straightaway but I think it might have been the
19 Bank of Ireland Stephen's Green which was the Bank
20 that the Company had to start with.
21 92 Q. Yes?
22 A. Then do you recall when the Irish bank strike was?
23 93 Q. Just continue?
24 A. Because...(INTERJECTION).
25 94 Q. Just continue?
26 A. Because that was the date of starting the company in
27 the UK and the Irish Company had been profitable and
28 had money in its bank account, I believe in the
29 Bank of Ireland in Stephen's Green, and when I went
16
1 to the UK to start the Company -- when I needed
2 finance, when I needed funds, we couldn't get it
3 because the banks were on strike in Ireland. I
4 remember that because it was so unusual and I think
5 that was the occasion perhaps. Now, that would have
6 been the date, whatever that date was, that
7 Mr. Lindsay went to I think the Merchants Bankers.
8 Were they Guinness & Mahon at that stage?
9 95 Q. The question I had asked you was when you went, you
10 yourself? When did you have first make contact with
11 Guinness & Mahon?
12 A. I think I -- I can't recall.
13 96 Q. Yes?
14 A. But I can't recall but at a guess I would say it was
15 probably shortly after that that I...(INTERJECTION).
16 97 Q. That what?
17 A. That I probably met them or had to meet them.
18 98 Q. Who did you meet?
19 A. Or I probably had to sign or something like that.
20 99 Q. Who did you meet? What do you remember?
21 A. I can't recall the first time I met them to be
22 honest with you. I can't remember.
23 100 Q. No. Then the second or third or forth time what do
24 you recall? What did you do?
25 A. Usually when I met -- unusual if I met them it was
26 because I had to sign something because the
27 signature of mine was required.
28 101 Q. Who did you meet?
29 A. Well, one name that comes to memory is Mr. Traynor.

1 102 Q. Yes. Anybody else?
2 A. I can't recall any other name, no.
3 103 Q. Yes?
4 A. In fact I don't know that I met anybody else. I
5 think he was probably the only one.
6 104 Q. Just Traynor?
7 A. Yes.
8 105 Q. How often would you have met Mr. Traynor?
9 A. Probably three or four times over whatever it was,
10 the 12 years, something like that.
11 106 Q. Yes. Did you meet a Mr. Stakelum?
12 A. Yes. Mr. Stakelum?
13 107 Q. Yes?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 108 Q. Would you tell me about what role he played?
16 A. Mr. Stakelum was I think -- I mean in the early days
17 I don't know that he -- I don't think he was
18 involved at all in the early days.
19 109 Q. Yes?
20 A. Oh, yes, I think perhaps he was. Did he work for
21 the accountants Haughey Boland to begin with? I
22 think he may have worked for Haughey Boland and then
23 may be at about that time that they started
24 preparing the accounts for the Irish Company. Then
25 I think he started business on his own and I think
26 Mr. Lindsay used him as a financial adviser but he
27 didn't work for the Company.
28 110 Q. Did you meet him?
29 A. Yes, I did, yes.
18
1 111 Q. Do you recall did you meet him about anything
2 specific about the affairs of the Company?
3 A. I don't remember in specifics initially about
4 Company affairs but I remember in the years that we
5 were really quite busy that one of the things that
6 we used to do was take a number of dealers to the
7 factory in Spain.
8 112 Q. Yes?
9 A. And in addition to the actual dealers there were
10 times when we took people who either worked for us
11 or supplied us in some other way and he certainly
12 came on one of those trips.
13 113 Q. Yes. Did he advise you at all on your own personal
14 tax affairs?
15 A. No, no.
16 114 Q. Did you have an adviser for your own personal tax
17 affairs, either in this Country or in England?
18 A. Yes. When I first went to England -- I mean I
19 didn't -- yes, when I first went to England since
20 Haughey Boland were the Company's, the parent
21 Company's, auditors accountants they automatically
22 came over and dealt with the UK situation and they
23 also dealt with my personal affairs.
24 115 Q. Who in Haughey Boland? Who is this?
25 A. In those early days.
26 116 Q. Who was that?
27 A. Mr. Carty. I don't recall any other name.
28 117 Q. In those early days you say?
29 A. Yes .
1 118 Q. Did it continue that Haughey Boland were the
2 accountants for the English Company and your
3 own personal accountant?
4 A. I think Haughey Boland continued to be the
5 Company's accountant.
6 119 Q. Yes?
7 A. For so long as the Company existed.
8 120 Q. Yes. Who were yours?
9 A. And they continued to be mine for as long as I was
10 with the Company and the Company existed but once
11 that ceased I then moved my personal affairs to
12 Baker Tilly in Birmingham, which was called
13 something else.
14 121 Q. Yes?
15 A. Halls I think, yes.
16 122 Q. I now want to ask you some questions about
17 the decision to cease the operations of
18 Super Ser Limited?
19 A. Yes .
20 123 Q. Was the company wound up?
21 A. When you say "wound up" I don't believe it was
22 wound up in terms of a Company being wound up by
23 a liquidator or a receiver but it didn't go out in
24 a blaze. It didn't go out in a blaze of glory.
25 It, I think, traded to a stop.
26 124 Q. It ceased trading?
27 A. Yes .
28 125 Q. A liquidator was not appointed. It just ceased
29 trading?
1 A. That is right.
2 126 Q. When do you think that was?
3 A. I think 1983.
4 127 Q. Yes. What happened to its subsidiaries in England?
5 A. Well, England went first.
6 128 Q. Did they just cease trading, the Companies?
7 A. Yes .
8 129 Q. They were not formally wound up?
9 A. No.
10 130 Q. Mr. Goosen, I want you to look at some documents
11 now. It is tab 7 & 6. Tab 7 first. I think if
12 we just hold it a minute. Just hold it because
13 they are slightly out of order. Page 38 please
14 (Exhibit 2) (Same Handed). This is a letter, an
15 internal letter, from Mr. Traynor. It is headed
16 Ansbacher Limited. It is addressed to Mr. Humphries
17 in Guinness & Mahon Limited. It is dated 30th July
18 1990. It is:
19
"Dear David, Could you please have
20 someone make the necessary arrangements
with Guinness Mahon & Co. in London so
21 that Mr. Chris Goosen may call in some
time on Thursday, 2nd August, to
22 collect Stg.£20,000.00 in cash.
23 Mr. Goosen has called to Guinness Mahon

& Co. on numerous occasions and is
24 probably known to Brenda Bartlett but,
as usual, I will ask him to bring his
25 Passport with him for identification
purposes.
26
The debit should go to Ansbacher
27 Limited Account No..."
9 fi
Z o
29 And it gives the number of the account.
21
"... Perhaps you would have someone
2 confirm to Joan or myself that it will
be in order for Mr. Goosen to call to
3 Guinness Mahon on Thursday so that I in
turn can confirm the arrangement to
4 him."
6 Could you tell me about that Mr. Goosen?
7 A. Specifically I can't tell you anything about it.
8 131 Q. Unspecifically can you tell me about it?
9 A. No, Sir.
10 132 Q. Do you understand what the letter means?
11 A. Well, I believe so.
12 133 Q. What does it mean?
13 A. Well, I mean I am reading it.
14 134 Q. What does it mean?
15 A. Could I ask you -- I mean I am not completely clear
16 as to what this inquiry is about.
17 135 Q. Yes. I will explain to you in a few moments?
18 A. And...(INTERJECTION).
19 136 Q. Just answer my questions first Mr. Goosen. Just
20 tell me what you understand that letter means?
21 A. Well, it is Mr. Traynor asking to make a sum of
22 money available to me.
23 137 Q. In cash?
24 A. But I can't remember what it is for.
25 138 Q. In cash?
26 A. Yes.
27 139 Q. You cannot remember what it is for?
28 A. No.
29 140 Q. However, you did receive the sum of money that is
22
1 referred to there?
2 A. I can't confirm that Sir, no.
3 141 Q. I think it is unlikely that you did?
4 A. I just can't recall.
5 142 Q. Yes?
6 A. So I can't confirm or...(INTERJECTION).
7 143 Q. Or Deny?
8 A. Deny really.
9 144 Q. What do you think? Do you think you did not
10 receive it?
11 A. I don't know, Sir.
12 145 Q. Just a moment Mr. Goosen. You are under oath now
13 Mr. Goosen. You do not know whether you received
14 it?
15 A. No, I don't.
16 146 Q. I will put the question somewhat differently to you.
17 Were you in the habit of obtaining money from
18 Guinness & Mahon, either in Guinness & Mahon in
19 Dublin or in London?
20 A. No, I wouldn't have said so.
21 147 Q. What would you say then? Did you ever receive
22 money?
23 A. There may have been occasions when I received some
24 money but I wouldn't say I was in the habit of doing
25 it.
26 148 Q. Alright. There may have been occasions?
27 A. Yes.
28 149 Q. How did that come about?
29 A. I can't recall the specifics.
23
1 150 Q. No. I am not asking specifics?
2 A. No.
3 151 Q. I am asking you how it came about that you received
4 money in Dublin or in London from Guinness & Mahon?
5 A. Well, all I can say is for example when I left the
6 Company, or when I sold my shares in the Company,
7 the payments were through Guinness & Mahon and
8 through Mr. Traynor.
9 152 Q. Are you saying that these are the payments for your
10 shares ?
11 A. That could well be a part of it. I would expect it
12 probably is but, you know, you have just given me a
13 piece of paper and I have no...(INTERJECTION).
14 153 Q. Yes. I will give you another piece of paper
15 Mr. Goosen. Could you look at a letter of the
16 15th October, page 40 (same handed) (Exhibit 3)?
17 This is dated 15th October to Mr. Humphries:
18
"Dear David, Could you please have
19 someone make the necessary arrangements
with Guinness Mahon & Co. in London so
20 that Mr. Chris Goosen may call on
Thursday morning next, 18th October,
21 about 11 a.m. and collect
Stg.£20,000.00 in cash.
22
Mr. Goosen has called to Guinness Mahon
23 & Co. on several previous occasions and
is probably known to some of the staff
24 members."
25
26 Do you recall that?
27 A. No, I don't.
28 154 Q. What would you suggest is the conclusion we should
29 draw from this letter? Do you think we should draw
24
1 the conclusion that you got £20,000 around about the
2 15th October in London?
3 A. I can understand why you would draw that conclusion
4 from that.
5 155 Q. Yes. Can you give us any reason?
6 A. And I don't think that is unreasonable by any means.
7 156 Q. Can you give us any reason?
8 A. For you to draw that conclusion.
9 157 Q. Can you give us any reason why we should not?
10 A. No, I can't Sir, no.
11 158 Q. Yes. Then, if that is so then, how did it
12 come about that you were drawing money from
13 Guinness Mahon, which was debiting the account of
14 Ansbacher Limited with the funds that you were
15 getting?
16 A. As I have explained I sold my shares in the Company
17 and I was being paid by Guinness Mahon.
18 159 Q. Is your explanation for this: These are payments
19 for your shares? Is that what you are telling us?
20 A. I would think so more than likely, yes.
21 160 Q. Why? Why would they be paying you from the
22 Ansbacher Limited account, their own account in
23 Guinness Mahon? Why would they be paying you the
24 shares ?
25 A. I don't know what the internal workings are.
26 161 Q. You do not know. You cannot explain to us?
27 A. No, Sir.
28 162 Q. Would you just turn to a letter, which is page 42,
29 (Exhibit 4) of the 12th December 1990 (Same Handed).

1 Here is another arrangement being made for a payment
2 of £2 0,000 in cash?
3 A. Can you tell me what the total of these adds up to?
4 163 Q. No. I will in a moment Mr. Goosen. I want your
5 explanation first?
6 A. May I ask you?
7 164 Q. Yes?
8 A. Because to begin with you said to me that I wasn't
9 on trial. I mean I am beginning to feel that you
10 are putting me under a bit of pressure. I am
11 beginning to feel that you are sort of putting me on
12 trial.
13 165 Q. No, Mr. Goosen.
14 A. I came here to help you as best as I can.
15 166 Q. No. Mr. Goosen, I will tell you what we are doing
16 here. It is perfectly clear from our letter. It
17 appears from this that you drew money from Guinness
18 Mahon?
19 A. Yes .
20 167 Q. Given in cash?
21 A. Yes .
22 168 Q. From an account in the Company, whose affairs we are
23 investigating, Ansbacher Limited and I want your
24 explanation for it and so far you have not been able
25 to give me any explanation for it. We will
26 continue. I want you to refer now to the letter of
27 the 12th December (Exhibit 4). This, again, is a
28 sum of £20,000 in cash. Can you explain why you
29 were receiving the money in cash?
26
1 A. I can only say the same answer as I have said to
2 you for the previous two.
3 169 Q. Can you explain why you were taking the money in
4 cash?
5 A. No, Sir.
6 170 Q. However, was it not a bit strange that here is
7 £60,000 that you took in cash? Why was that
8 happening do you think?
9 A. I would like -- I mean if we are going to continue
10 asking me as if I am being tried for something, in
11 that case then I think may be I should have some
12 legal representation.
13 171 Q. No, Mr. Goosen?
14 A. I mean I have come here to help you as much as I
15 can, out of goodwill, you know. I quite honestly
16 do not understand...(INTERJECTION).
17 172 Q. Perhaps, it will become...(INTERJECTION)?
18 A. The jurisdiction of myself being a UK resident in
19 answering these questions to you Sir, with the
20 greatest of respect. I don't understand that
21 because I have no legal counsel or advice to base
22 that on.
23 173 Q. Alright. Yes. We made clear in our letter to
24 you what our jurisdiction was Mr. Goosen. I want
25 to continue now with another letter of the
26 17th September 1990. It is page 36 (Same Handed)
27 (Exhibit 5).
28 A. Could you explain that to me please Sir because I
29 don't understand it really? You say you explained
27
1 your jurisdiction to me.
2 174 Q. Yes. The letter Mr. Goosen, which we sent you,
3 explained fully the Order of the Court?
4 A. Yes .
5 175 Q. The investigation into the affairs of
6 Ansbacher Limited, which was formally known as
7 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited?
8 A. Yes .
9 176 Q. And its Irish business?
10 A. Yes .
11 177 Q. And its Irish business included business which it
12 conducted here in Ireland. It appears from these
13 documents that Ansbacher Limited, the Cayman
14 company, had an account with Guinness & Mahon in
15 Ireland?
16 A. Yes .
17 178 Q. Which, I am sure you know by now, was a subsidiary,
18 that Ansbacher was a subsidiary in the Cayman of
19 Guinness & Mahon in Ireland?
20 A. Yes .
21 179 Q. It appears from this that you availed of the
22 services of Ansbacher Limited in that you were able
23 to, whatever arrangements were made, obtain funds
24 from Guinness & Mahon here in Ireland by contacting
25 Mr. Traynor?
26 A. Yes .
27 180 Q. And that is the matter in which I am enquiring into
28 now?
29 A. Right.
1 181 Q. So we will continue. If you...(INTERJECTION)?
2 A. But Sir could I just ask you please just to advise
3 me as a UK resident and as a UK taxpayer and as
4 someone who has -- I mean am I not outside the scope
5 of that enquiry.
6 182 Q. No, you are not outside the scope of the enquiry.
7 This is not a trial, as I told you?
8 A. Right.
9 183 Q. We are reporting to The High Court?
10 A. Right.
11 184 Q. The result of our investigations?
12 A. Yes.
13 185 Q. I would like you to look at the letter of
14 17th September (Exhibit 5) which
15 is...(INTERJECTION)?
16 A. Sorry, one final question.
17 186 Q. Yes?
18 A. May I ask to take some legal advice on this since --
19 I mean since you start talking about The High Court
20 or something then I think I should have some legal
21 advice?
22 187 Q. When you say "we start talking about The High
23 Court", was it not clear from our letter that we
24 were Inspectors appointed by the High Court?
25 A. I saw that. Yes, I saw that you were Inspectors
26 appointed by The High Court.
27 188 Q. Yes?
28 A. Yes, Sir, I saw that.
29 189 Q. Did you discuss our letter with any legal person in
29
1 England?
2 A. No.
3 190 Q. Did you discuss it with Mr. Lindsay?
4 A. No.
5 191 Q. So you have...(INTERJECTION)?
6 A. I have tried, in fact, but I mean presumably -- have
7 you spoken to Mr. Lindsay?
8 192 Q. If you would just answer the questions please
9 Mr. Goosen?
10 A. Yes. I have tried but I haven't discussed it with
11 him, no. When I say "I have tried" I have tried to
12 get in contact with him but I think he is out of --
13 I don't know where he is. His answer phone seems to
14 be on all the time.
15 193 Q. Mr. Goosen, we requested you to give us an unsworn
16 statement, which you did not do. We asked you to
17 attend, which you have done so and you have attended
18 now. Do I understand that you are now refusing to
19 answer further questions until you have got legal
20 advice?
21 A. No, no, Sir. You are quite right. I didn't
22 understand really that you were asking me to make an
23 unsworn statement. I understood that the purpose of
24 your initial letter was to ask me for copies of any
25 documentation that I had.
26 194 Q. No, that was not in our letter at all?
27 A. I mean what made me aware of this in the first place
28 was that I got a letter from Guinness & Mahon saying
29 that I may be a person whom the inquiry is
30
1 interested in.
2 195 Q. Yes?
3 A. Which really surprised me.
4 196 Q. If we return now to the question I was asking you
5 Mr. Goosen: Are you refusing to answer further
6 questions ?
7 A. No, Sir.
8 197 Q. No?
9 A. No, no.
10 198 Q. Very well. Let us continue because I want to make
11 it absolutely clear to you that this is an
12 investigation into the affairs of Ansbacher. We are
13 endeavouring to find out what services you availed
14 of?
15 A. Yes .
16 199 Q. Because it is quite clear from the documents we have
17 that you did avail of it and that is the purpose of
18 our investigation here today. If we continue then?
19 A. But Sir then can I -- does that mean that I can't
20 have legal representation or I can't take legal
21 advice on...(INTERJECTION).
22 200 Q. No. It means that if you -- you can decide that you
23 do not wish to go on with this interview today on
24 the basis that you have not got legal advice. You
25 can say that to us if you want to say that, in which
26 event we will take it that you are declining now to
27 answer any further questions until you get legal
28 advice. You can take that line or alternatively we
29 can go on with the investigation today?
31
1 A. Okay. I mean I believe I have been fully
2 cooperative with you so far. I would want to
3 continue doing that.
4 201 Q. Very well?
5 A. There is no, you know -- I don't want it to be
6 hostile.
7 202 Q. Very well?
8 A. But I don't want to -- I don't know. I am not a
9 legal mind but if I got some rights I want, you
10 know -- may be I need to be told about them.
11 203 Q. Yes. I just want to know do you not wish to answer
12 further questions until you have got legal advice
13 and been told about your legal entitlements?
14 A. Well, shall we go on a bit further?
15 204 Q. Very well then?
16 A. You know I want to show willingness but -- yes.
17 205 Q. Very well. We will go on until you ask us to stop?
18 A. Yes.
19 206 Q. This is a letter to Mr. Humphries from Mr. Traynor
20 of the 17th September 1999. It is: (Exhibit 5)
21
"Dear David, I should be grateful if
22 you would arrange to let me have a
draft for Stg.£25,000.00 payable to
23 Mr. C. Goosen.
24 The debit should be to Ansbacher

Limited Account..."
25
26 And it is numbered.
27
"...Padraig Collery will call to the
28 Bank at 3.00 p.m. this afternoon and I
would appreciate if he could collect
29 the draft at that time"?
32
2 A. I have no specific recollection.
3 207 Q. No?
4 A. I can only refer you to my previous answer.
5 208 Q. Do you know who...(INTERJECTION)?
6 A. I believe it is part of the same thing.
7 209 Q. Do you know who Mr. Padraig Collery is?
8 A. No.
9 210 Q. Sorry?
10 A. No, I don't.
11 211 Q. You do not. This was a draft payable to Mr. Goosen,
12 that is you. Do you remember receiving a draft in
13 Dublin?
14 A. No, Sir.
15 212 Q. Sorry?
16 A. No, I don't.
17 213 Q. Was one ever posted to you?
18 A. I don't believe so. I don't know.
19 214 Q. Pardon?
20 A. I don't know. I don't believe so.
21 215 Q. You do not...(INTERJECTION)?
22 A. I don't know. I just don't know.
23 216 Q. Yes. Have you any recollection of a draft being
24 posted to you?
25 A. No.
26 217 Q. This letter would appear to be indicating that
27 Mr. Collery, who was an employee of the Bank, was
28 going to receive a draft which was payable to you.
29 Can you recall receiving a draft?
33
2 218 Q. Do you think it is likely you did?
3 A. No.
4 219 Q. You do not think it is likely?
5 A. No, I don't recall anything about that Sir.
6 220 Q. Yes. You do not think it is likely that you
7 received the draft?
8 A. I just don't recall.
9 221 Q. Yes. Mr. Goosen, these drafts, that I have been
10 referring to, from July to December amounted to
11 £100,000?
12 A. Yes. I think the ones that I have got here are
13 £85,000?
14 222 Q. Yes, I see. There is another one then. You can
15 take it that there was £100,000, £85,000 or
16 £100,000?
17 A. Yes.
18 223 Q. Do you remember getting that sum from
19 Guinness & Mahon in 1990?
20 A. That seems to be -- it is possible, yes.
21 224 Q. The question is: Do you remember it?
22 A. I don't remember it, no.
23 225 Q. You do not remember it. However, it is possible
24 that you did?
25 A. Yes.
26 226 Q. Why would they have been paying you that sum,
27 deducting it from the Ansbacher account in Guinness
28 & Mahon? Why would they have been paying it to you?
29 A. What their accounting was I have no idea but why I
34
1 would be receiving it would be for the sale of my
2 shares.
3 227 Q. The sale of your shares?
4 A. Yes.
5 228 Q. Which took place when?
6 A. I think that is the time.
7 229 Q. The Company ceased business in...(INTERJECTION)?
8 A. No, earlier than that, sorry. That is what it would
9 be.
10 230 Q. Seven years after the Company ceased trading?
11 A. The Company ceased trading when -- yes.
12 231 Q. Who did you sell your shares to?
13 A. To an American company that was involved with
14 Super Ser Dublin, I think at the time when they were
15 trying to get into America.
16 232 Q. What was the name of the Company?
17 A. I can't recall.
18 233 Q. What was the purchase price of the shares?
19 A. It was, I think, £250,000.
20 234 Q. For all the Company?
21 A. No.
22 235 Q. For all the shares?
23 A. For my shares.
24 236 Q. Yes. You were unpaid between 1983 and 1990 for your
25 shares?
26 A. I can't recall.
27 237 Q. You cannot. Is there a difficulty in the statement
28 I have just made? It is arising from your own
29 evidence that the Company ceased trading in 1983.
35
1 You say these might have been payments for the
2 shares ?
3 A. I would need to try to do some more specific sort of
4 research to look back into that to be honest with
5 you.
6 238 Q. I see. Can you explain why the Cayman Islands
7 company would have been paying you for the shares?
8 A. No, other than the fact that they were connected to
9 Guinness & Mahon Dublin, who short of brokered the
10 deal, brokered the arrangement.
11 239 Q. Yes. Who in Guinness & Mahon Dublin brokered it
12 Mr. Goosen?
13 A. Well, Mr. Traynor was the only person that I know of
14 there.
15 240 Q. Did he broker it?
16 A. Well, when you say "broker" may be I have used a
17 bad word. He was certainly the person in
18 Guinness & Mahon who was involved in administering
19 the funds, the proceeds of the sale.
20 241 Q. Who actually negotiated the sale then?
21 A. I think Mr. Lindsay.
22 242 Q. Yes?
23 A. Mr. Lindsay and Mr. Stakelum -- sorry, Mr. Lindsay
24 and Mr. Traynor.
25 243 Q. Mr. Lindsay and Mr. Traynor?
26 A. Yes .
27 244 Q. They must have been in touch with you about it, were
28 they?
29 A. Yes, I mean at the time -- well, I had to agree to
36
1 it. It was a question of getting something or
2 getting absolutely nothing for it.
3 245 Q. Yes?
4 A. So, yes.
5 246 Q. They were in touch with you about?
6 A. Yes, we did meet about that.
7 247 Q. Did they write to you about it?
8 A. I don't think so.
9 248 Q. Yes. Did you come over to Ireland then to discuss
10 it with them?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 249 Q. Who were the discussions with? Was it Mr. Stakelum
13 and your partner Mr. Lindsay?
14 A. Yes.
15 250 Q. Did you discuss it with any of the purchasers of the
16 shares?
17 A. No, my dealings were done through Mr. Lindsay.
18 251 Q. Yes?
19 A. And Mr. Stakelum and Mr. Traynor in total.
20 252 Q. Yes. The funds that I have indicated to you now do
21 not amount to the total purchase price of the
22 shares. Do you remember how the balance of the
23 purchase price of the shares was paid?
24 A. No, not specifically, no.
25 253 Q. Unspecifically do you remember?
26 A. No, Sir, the same, I don't.
27 254 Q. You do not remember?
28 A. I don't. I haven't got those details.
29 255 Q. You see there are documents here which show that you
37
1 received sums of £20,150 on a regular basis from
2 February 1991 from Henry Ansbacher & Company Limited
3 in London, the account being Ansbacher Cayman
4 Limited's account in London. Do you recall going in
5 and getting cash in the London Bank of Ansbacher?
6 A. Yes .
7 256 Q. Tell me about that? What did you do?
8 A. I know I did go to the London Bank of Ansbacher. I
9 mean I think at that time -- was it that time that
10 Ansbacher bought out Guinness & Mahon or something
11 or is that the time?
12 257 Q. Just tell me what you recall?
13 A. I think, you know, I went there one day and it was
14 Guinness & Mahon. The next time I went there it was
15 Ansbacher and I really don't know anything to do
16 with the connection between Guinness & Mahon and
17 Ansbacher.
18 258 Q. Just let us get the facts?
19 A. Other than I think Ansbacher bought
21 259 Q. I have documents here, which I can show you in a
22 moment Mr. Goosen...(INTERJECTION)?
23 A. That is all I can say to you.
24 260 Q. Just let me finish?
25 A. Yes .
26 261 Q. Between 1991 and 1996 you went regularly to Henry
27 Ansbacher & Co. Limited and received cash, £20,150
28 each time. Do you recall going regularly and
29 receiving cash from them?
38
1 A. Well, I was there on a number...(INTERJECTION).
2 262 Q. Do you recall regularly going and receiving cash?
3 A. I recall going there.
4 263 Q. Yes?
5 A. I cannot be specific about...(INTERJECTION).
6 264 Q. I will just put the documents to you?
7 A. Yes.
8 265 Q. It is tab 8 (Same Handed) (Exhibit 6)?
9 A. Thank you.
10 266 Q. Do you see these are Henry Ansbacher & Co. Limited
11 statements of account. It is the account of
12 Ansbacher Cayman Limited. That is the Company in
13 the Cayman Islands. It is debiting cash to their
14 account that you received. Do you see -- I am not
15 quite certain if you have got it in proper order.
16 If you look at the back, page 62 the bottom?
17 A. Yes.
18 267 Q. It is February 1991, it begins?
19 A. So, that is leading on from this, isn't it?
20 268 Q. If you would just turn each page. We will go
21 through each page. £20,000 in cash?
22 A. Yes.
23 269 Q. £20,000 in May of 1992, in cash. Then in May of --
24 the next page, in October 1993 cash. December 1993,
25 £15,000 in cash. February 1994, £20,100 cash.
26 April 1994, £20,100 cash?
27 A. Yes.
28 270 Q. And so it continues on up to 1996. Do you remember
29 these drawings now Mr. Goosen?
39
1 A. Its the same thing that we have been talking about.
2 271 Q. Just answer the question: Do you remember these
3 drawings?
4 A. I don't remember them specifically, I say again,
5 but...(INTERJECTION).
6 272 Q. But what?
7 A. But that is drawings that I was entitled to have
8 because, if that is presumably what that is, that is
9 why I sold the shares of the Company.
10 273 Q. Are you saying then that these are drawings of the
11 proceeds of the sale of shares in the Company?
12 These are cash for the shares of the Company, is
13 that what you are telling us?
14 A. Yes, I get that, yes, yes.
15 274 Q. They come to over £300,000?
16 A. Because there is no other -- yes.
17 275 Q. You told me, with the other document that I have
18 referred to, that there is £100,000 in the others
19 that you drew in Dublin. That is £400,000. Can you
20 explain how, if the shares were sold for £250,000,
21 you obtained this amount?
22 A. I believe they were invested and they accumulated.
23 276 Q. Why do you believe that?
24 A. Because that is what they were. They were invested.
25 277 Q. Did somebody tell you that?
26 A. Yes.
27 278 Q. Who told you that?
28 A. Mr. Traynor.
29 279 Q. When did he tell you that?
40
1 A. Well, it was with Mr. Traynor that I made the
2 arrangement.
3 280 Q. What arrangement?
4 A. That he would invest the proceeds of the sale, my
5 share of the proceeds of sale, of the Company.
6 281 Q. Yes?
7 A. And that when I wanted to draw money from it I could
8 draw money from it.
9 282 Q. I see. The sale of the shares then, you gave the
10 purchase price. You arranged with Mr. Traynor that
11 he would invest it?
12 A. Yes.
13 283 Q. Did he tell you where he was doing so, where he was
14 going to put it?
15 A. No.
16 284 Q. Did he tell you that it was in a subsidiary of
17 Guinness & Mahon Ireland?
18 A. No.
19 285 Q. Did you know where it was?
20 A. No.
21 286 Q. Did he ever then account to you from time to time?
22 A. I suppose so but -- yes.
23 287 Q. He did?
24 A. Yes.
25 288 Q. In what way did he do that Mr. Goosen?
26 A. When I met him or he might have sent me something in
27 the post.
28 289 Q. Right. In England, to England?
29 A. Yes.
41
1 290 Q. When you met him, you met him in Ireland?
2 A. Yes.
3 291 Q. Where in Ireland?
4 A. In -- is it George's Street? Was it George's Street
5 I was in?
6 292 Q. The offices of Guinness & Mahon you mean?
7 A. Yes.
8 293 Q. You would go into the offices and meet Mr. Traynor?
9 A. Yes.
10 294 Q. He would give you an account then of your
11 investments?
12 A. Yes.
13 295 Q. All that happened after the sale of the shares of
14 the Company in 1983?
15 A. Yes.
16 296 Q. How often would you have gone into him then?
17 A. Not often.
18 297 Q. Not often?
19 A. No.
20 298 Q. He would give you an account when you went in?
21 A. Yes.
22 299 Q. Have you kept any of these documents?
23 A. No.
24 300 Q. Do you remember what the accounts showed?
25 A. No. You are probably going to show me in a minute.
26 301 Q. Do you remember what the accounts showed?
27 A. No.
28 302 Q. Did you know that the funds that he had invested
29 on your behalf were earning interest?
42
1 A. Yes, that was the whole point.
2 303 Q. The whole point, yes. You think he invested them
3 successfully then so that the funds that you got in
4 Dublin and then later through the Bank in London
5 were the proceeds, the increased proceeds, of sale
6 due to the investments that he carried out on your
7 behalf?
8 A. Yes.
9 304 Q. Mr. Goosen, the terms of reference under which we
10 are acting by The Court Order, a copy of which we
11 sent to you, ask us to investigate whether the
12 Cayman Island company was carrying on its business
13 so as to enable its customers to defraud their
14 Revenue, the Revenue authorities of their Country.
15
16 Our terms of reference mean that if they were
17 carrying on Irish business for people who were
18 resident in England or in America in such a way as
19 to enable them to defraud the Revenue authorities of
20 their Country, that this is a matter which calls for
21 our investigation.
22
23 Accordingly, I have to ask you whether or not you
24 returned the interest which was earned on the sale
25 of these shares, which were invested you say by
26 Mr. Traynor on your behalf, to your authorities,
27 your Revenue authorities in England?
28 A. I would say to you at this stage that I would now
29 like to terminate the interview.
43
1 305 Q. Yes. Very well?
2 A. And get my accountants and whatever legal assistance
3 I might need.
4 306 Q. Very good?
5 A. Please?
6 307 Q. Yes. You do that. We will do that Mr. Goosen.
7 A. Thank you.
8 308 Q. What would be helpful would be if you could, having
9 taken legal advice and considered the matter with
10 your accountants, give us a statement then of the
11 position. It would help us if you could do that?
12 A. Yes .
13 309 Q. If you do not wish to do that what we would require
14 you to do then is to continue this sworn testimony
15 at a later date. If you send us on a written
16 statement it may be unnecessary to continue this
17 investigation. However, if you do not we would
18 ask you if you could return to continue the
19 investigation when you have had an opportunity of
20 considering the position?
21 A. Sorry, you said not a sworn statement. You say a
22 statement but not a sworn statement. A statement
23 specifically about what?
24 310 Q. About as we have indicated in our letter to you in
25 the original letter to you?
26 A. A statement to the Investigators. After which it
27 may be necessary to have another meeting or it may
28 not be.
29 311 Q. Yes, depending on whether or not we consider we are

1 required to do so.
2 A. Will it be possible Sir to get a copy
3 of...(INTERJECTION).
4 312 Q. These documents?
5 A. A memorandum or whatever of today's interview.
6 313 Q. A transcript of today's interview will be sent to
7 you. We would be glad if you would sign it. You
8 are required by law to sign it?
9 A. Right.
10 314 Q. We want to arrange for you to do so. Ms. Cummins
11 will be in touch with you about that?
12 A. Okay.
13 315 Q. I appreciate that you wish to terminate the
14 interview now and I will do so, of course. However,
15 I should explain that one of the matters on which I
16 would like your assistance Mr. Goosen is in relation
17 to the Company itself having deposits in the
18 Cayman Islands, whether you knew about that?
19 A. No.
20 316 Q. As I say I do not wish to prolong the investigation.
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 317 Q. However, it is a matter which I would like your
23 assistance on, whether you knew whether or not the
24 Company itself had deposits in the Cayman Islands?
25 A. No.
26 318 Q. Mr. Goosen, we will conclude then. We would be glad
27 then if you, having got legal advice and considered
28 matters with your accountants, could give us an
29 unsworn statement. We will consider that and we

1 will be it touch with you then. If we do think that
2 our responsibilities to the Court require us to ask
3 you to come back we will let you know?
4 A. Okay.
5 319 Q. Very good. Thank you Mr. Goosen?
6 A. Is there any possibility of claiming expenses for
7 coming today?
8 320 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION)?
9 A. Since I think I have saved you quite a bit in you
10 all coming to England.
11 321 Q. Yes. The position is we have not any authority
12 Mr. Goosen to order expenses. However, the Statute
13 deals with it and I will ask Ms. Cummins to give you
14 a copy of the relevant section of the Statute?
15 A. Okay.
16 322 Q. It is not within our power?
17 A. Okay.
18 323 Q. To award anything?
19 A. Thank you.
20 324 Q. Any expenses?
21 A. Thank you.
22
24
25
26
27
28
29
46
AT
V^vfH-v-
"JV/ S"' •lAfiÔl O-OO'L
,T6
R. W. STAMPS
Notary PubHs
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Ansbacher Limited
• '' * " fam Btnry
***** BoiOngJ PLC Merchant Mmktog Omqt
1
r d ' iv. ' to. Bm W, Onnd Ckymu, Brifcb Wat IndUi
<».' Pleajereplyto. Phone (KB) 9494633/4
s
42 FitzwHliam Square, TdncCP4joj
' ' Dublin 2. * * 252JE22
Tel: 765144/763065 («*>WM*7
Fax: 612035
30th July, 1990.
M. David Humphries, Bag.,
Senior Manager - operations,
Guinness & Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
POBLIN 2.
Dear David,
Could you please have someone make the necessary arrangements
with Guinness Mahon * Co. in London so that Mr. Chris Goosen
may call in some time on Thursday, 2nd August, to collect
Stg.E20,000.00 in cash*
Mr. Goosen has called to Guinness Mahon i Co. on numerous
occasions and is probably known to Brands Bartlett but, as
usual, I will ask him to bring his Passport with him for
identification purposes.
The debit should go to Ansbacher Limited Account No.13154602.
Perhaps you would have someone confirm to Joan or myself that
it will be in order for Mr. Goosen to call to Guinness Mahon
on Thursday soJ that
M A L I
J . in turn can confirm the arrangement to
hiy.
%
/
Yours sincerely.
J.D. Traynor.
JDT/AJW ^ s k w u , t / f o v c**2e & £>. H.

c N
3 R
£*Hi6i-r 3
Ansbacher Limited
nCMmham Banking Grvu.
817, Goad Cayman, Britiah W«t Iodic

Please repl] ~ Me (MS) MM633)
42 Tatar CP43C
Fmc 009) 949-79C
Dublin 2. (809) MM2t
Tel: 7651
Fax: 612035
15th October, 1?90.
17 College Green,
DOBLIN 2.
Dear David,
Could you please have someone mi the necessary arrangements
with Guinneas Mahon I Co. in on so that Mr. Chris Goosen
may call on Thursday morning , 18th October, about 11 a.m
and collect Stg.£20,000 in i
Mr. Goosen has called to Gtiinness Mahon ft Co. on several
previous occasions and is^probably known to some of the staff
members. He will, oy course, bring some identification wi
him.
Please debit the costf to Ansbacher Limited Account No. 131546C
Yours sincerely.
J.D. Travno:
JDT/AJW f
i*rr it
Ansbacher limited •v-f.^v;-^...:-

A Mtmbtr qflt* Htnry Ambathtr HoUngs tUC Utrchtm Banking Group
Please reply to:

P.O. Box 1ST, Onuri Csyaou, Britkh Wot lata
Mmm: (pOD MM493/4
42 Fitzwilliam Square, TUhb CP43QS i • .••• •
Dublin 2. fiuc (105) M9-7M6 r '
wmm-aa
Td: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
1 2 t h December, 1990.
G u i n n e s s ft Mahon L i m i t e d ,
DOBLIN 2 .
Dear David,
C o u l d you p l e a s e make t h e n e c e s s a r y a r r a n g e m e n t s w i t h G u i n n e s s
Mahon ft Co. i n London s o t h a t Mr. C h r i s Goosen may c a l l i n t h e r e
o n F r i d a y 1 4 t h December and c o l l e c t S t g . £ 2 0 , 0 0 0 i n c a s h .
M r . Goosen h a s c a l l e d i n t o G u i n n e s s Mahon on numerous
o c c a s i o n s a n d i s known t o B r e n d a B a r t l e t t and I am s u r e t o
o t h e r s t a f f members. He w i l l , of c o u r s e , b r i n g - s o m e form o f
i d e n t i f i c a t i o n with him.
B e c a u s e of t h e s h o r t n o t i c e , I p r o p o s e s e n d i n g a copy o f t h i s
t o you by f a x w i t h t h e o r i g i n a l f o l l o w i n g i n t h e m o r n i n g .
. ' e r h a p s y o u c o u l d h a v e someone r i n g J o a n t o c o n f i r m when
a r r a n g e m e n t s h a v e b e e n made s o t h a t s h e may a d v i s e Mr. G o o s e n .
f^' x'he c o s t s h o u l d b e d e b i t e d t o A n s b a c h e r L i m i t e d A c c o u n t
No.13154602.
f ^ JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (48) (l)(c)
Ansbacher Limited
A Member of the Henry Ansbacher Holdings PLC Merchant Banking Group
P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, British West Indies

P l e a s e r e p l y to:
Phone: (809) 949-4653/4
42 Fitzwilliam Square,. Telex: CP 4305
D u b l i n 2. Fax: (809) 949-7946
(809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065
F a x : 612035
17th September, 1990.
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear David,
I should be grateful if you would arrange to let me have a
draft for Stg.£25,000.00 payable to Mr. C. Goosen.
The debit should be to Ansbacher Limited Account No.13154602.
Padraig Collery yill call to the Bank at 3.00 p.m. this
afternoon and I would appreciate if he could collect the draft
at that time.
To expedite matters I am sending this to you by fax and
Padraig will bring the original with him when he calls this
afternoon.
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Traynor.
- A :
JDT/AJW
J
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Appendix XV (48) (1) (v)
•3 W
Statementfrom Francis Christopher Goosen
This statement is prepared in response to the requestfrom the Ansbacher Enquiry.

In 19671 returned to Ireland and became one of two founder members of the
company Super Ser Ltd. Which was formed in Dublin in 1967. I held 50% of the
company's shares, Mr. Harry Lindsay held the other 50% of the shares. Mr. Lindsay
had previously employed me in his motorcycle business as a representative.
The company carried out the business of importing gas heatersfrom Spain and selling
them in Ireland. Initially during thefirst year or so I was the only person actively
working at this business because it was so small.
By 1970 the business had developed well in Ireland and I moved to the United
Kingdom to set up a business there. Super Ser Heaters (UK) Ltd wasformed as a
wholly owned subsidiary of Super Ser Ltd. And at a later date Impact Heaters (UK)
Ltd wasformed to import a different brand name of heater. This company was also a
wholly owned subsidiary of Super Ser Ltd.
I lived and worked in the UK between 1970 -1978 employed by Super Ser Heaters
(UK) Ltd and Impact Heaters (UK) Ltd. During this time my position was Managing
Director of these companies engaged in the development and importation of a range
of gas heatersfrom Spain, which we distributed throughout the UK. Ardant Heaters
Ltd. Was an additional companyformed in Ireland to manufacture heaters. During
thistimethe company used the services of Guinness & Mahon Bank of Dublin for its
financial services and Haughey Boland Ltd. of Dublin as its accountants.
In 1979 there was a difference of opinion between myself and Mr Hairy Lindsay as to
what we should do. Mr Lindsay was determined to expand into the United States and I
wanted to sell the companies. Mr Lindsay had the casting vote and my efforts to sell
were blocked. I resignedfrom the companies in 1979.
Between 1979 - 19831 was engaged in the production of a series of underwater
documentaryfilms, which werefilmed around the world. During this time I had
nothing to do with the running of the companies. I later learned that during this time
the companies had many problems and in 1983 my shares were sold. After this I had
no further dealings with the companies although I did continue to use the services of
Guinness and Mahon Bank in the form of Mr Traynor who had brokered the sale of
my shares to an American company. The proceeds being sent to an offshore company
in the Cayman Islands which Mr Traynor had set up. I understand that this was a
legitimate procedure and that the company was professionally run and that where
appropriate the company accounted for taxes.
In conclusion I would like to confirm that I have not resided in Ireland since 1970 and
I have not been actively associated with any company or business in Ireland since
1979. The companies that I was associated with up to that date, accounted to the Irish
Revenue as required.
Signed Date 27 October 2000

F>
Appendix XV (49) Ms Clare Griffin
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Ms
Clare Griffin.
a) Letter of 6 July 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
b) Letter of 14 December 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and

Mahon.
c) Letter of 13 November 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and

Mahon.
d) Letter of 4 May 1993 - Cayman International Bank & Trust Co Limited to

IIB.
e) Letter of 4 May 1993 - Cayman International Bank & Trust Co Limited to

IIB.
f) Letter of 4 May 1993 - Cayman International Bank & Trust Co Limited to

IIB.
Ansbacher Limited
A Mtmbtr tfdm Smry Awt*Mn Hut*m> PLC Htrdm* MmUm Group
P.a * » W. Qnad Ctynws, Bad* V«t fate

Please icply to: Plm: (M) MMtiD/4
42FitnriIIiamSquare, Trine CP430S
DqUSB Z Rue (*W) M9-7946
TisL 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
6th July, 1990

M. D a v i d B u a p h r i e s , E s q . ,
G u i n n e s a ft Mahon L i m i t e d ,
I DUBLIN 2 .
Dear David,
Could you please arrange to let mm have zor collection a
Sterling Draft for Stg.£2f000 payable to Clare Griffin.
The coat should be debited to Ansbacher Limited Account
No.13154602.
Yours sincerely,
JDT/AJW
o
Ambachor limitfd
_ _
Pkuereplyto: tJ0.WmW.0mi
42 FkzwiQiam Square, (H)MMiO/4
Dublin 2. (W) waff
m7«514V763065
Rue 612035
14th Deceabar, 1990.
N. D a v i d H u m p h r i e s , S s g . ,
S a n i o r Manager - O p e r a t i o n s ,
A G u i n n e a s ft Mahon L i m i t e d ,
PUBLIW 2 .
Daar D a v i d ,
Could you p l e a s e a r r a n g e t o l a t a a have f o r c o l l e c t i o n on
T u e s d a y a o r a i n g n e x t 1 8 t h December:
(1) A S t a r l i n g Draft for £tg.£2,000.00 payable to

Mra. G r i f f i n .
(2) XR£1,000 i n c a s h .
The c o s t o f b o t h i t e m s a h o a l d b e d e b i t e d t o A n s b a c h e r L i m i t e d
A c c o u n t Wo. 1 3 1 5 4 6 0 2 .
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Traynor.
JDT/AJW
Ansbacher limited
nCtMm MmBm Smm
Please FIMMS 0M) MM0/4

42 U b CP 4X0
Item«MMC
Ddblial MMM7
T«±7651'
Hue 612035
13th Hovealbar, 1990.

M. David B u a p h r i e s , B a g . ,
Guinness A Mahon U n i t e d ,
17 C o l l e g e Green,
DOBLIN 2 . M-
l>-N
Dear David,
Could you p l e a s e a r r a n g e t o l 4 t a e have f o r c o l l e c t i o n a
Draft f o r XR£2,000.00 p a y a b l * t o Mrs. C. G r i f f i n and d e b i t
t h e S t e r l i n g c o s t t o Ansbaaher Limited Account No.13154602.
Yours s i n c e r e l y ,
J.D. Traynor.
»
JDT/AJW
rs
Pleasereplyto: PD. Box &87, Grand Ca; Cayman Islands. British Wen Indies
94946SS Tele* CP 43(15
42 Fitzwllliam Square, Facsimile (809) 949-7946
Dublin 2.
(Fonncriy Aarindier Limited)
Tel: 676 5144/676 3065
Pax: 6612035
4 t h May, 1993.
Ronan Redmond, Esq.,
Corporate Services,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Linited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Could you p l e a s e arrange the t r a n s f e r o f E 1 1 0 , 1 2 3 . 6 0 from our

Account No.02/01087/81 t o
G u i n n e s s Mahon G u e m s e v Limited
P . O . Box 1 8 8
La V i e l l e Cour
St. Peter Port
Guernsey
for credit to: Account Mrs. C. G r i f f i n
Account No.360001
Yours sincerely.
F o r CAY
CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AND TRUST CO.' LTD.
y I T — HII.JE-. - i • ..
DPC/AJW I CHE£>:£?C
l»r«rv • •• »• -— N.
I Guernsey • Monaco • Zurich - Nasstu - Cayman - B VI
H-C&l
Pleasereplyto: P.O. Box ,87. o™- ^
42 RtewUIiam Square, Faataile(J09)9<9-794«
Dublin 2.
Tel: 6765144/676 306? ffoaaafy AubacferUniiaQ
Fax: 6612035 . V
• \ • , V'.'*""3*
4th May, 1993.
Ronan Redaond, Esq., •
Corporate Services,
Irish intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Herrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan*
Could you please arrange to transfer £50.000 from our Account
No.02/01087/81 to
Barclays Bank Services (Gib.) Ltd.,
P.O. Box 187,
Regal Bouse,
3 Queans Way,
Gibraltar.
For credit tot Account Mrs. Claire and Mr. Barry Griffin
Account No.6709.
Yours sincerely,
\ /
::
V
For CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AND TROST CO. LTD
fsiGWSfiE
M
DPC/AJW
I CHEryrt
Guernsey - Monaco - Zurich - N u n u - Cayman • BV1

Pleasereplylo: P.O. Box 8*7, Grand Cayman, Ciymin Jklands, British West Indies
Telephone (809)94944S3 Telex CP 430$
42 HtzwiUhun Square, Facsimile (809)949-794*
Dublin 2.
Tel: 676 5144/676 3065 (Focmeriy Aaslmcfaer Linked)
'"'-Fax:6612035 •
4 t h May, 1993.
Ronan Redmond, E s q . ,
Corporate Services,
I r i s h I n t e r c o n t i n e n t a l Bank L i n i t e d ,
91 M e r r i o n S q u a r e ,
DUBLIN 2 .
Dear Bona?,
P l e a s e a r r a n g e t h e t r a n s f e r of £ 5 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 fm*" o u r A c c o u n t
No.02/01087/81 t o
Banco N a t N e s t
C e n t r o Commercial P l a z a
Nueva A n d a l u e i a
29600 M a r b e l l a
Malaga
Spain
for c r e d i t t o : A c c o u n t Mrs. C l a i r e a n d Mr. B a r r y G r i f f i n
Aocount NO. 0 0 1 3 / 0 2 4 0 - 5 7 - 0 1 0 0 0 8 9 9 8 3
Yours sincerely,
F o r CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AMP TBP8T CO. LTD.
. 'if-
j SlSfiATufiE j
DPC/AJW [CHECKgO V 5| f^y ^ ^ y ^
Mfflftl^----'
Guernsey - Monaco - Zurich - Nassau - Cayman - BVI
L
fOQt
Appendix XV (50) Mr James Griffin Jnr
James Griffin Jnr.
a) Guinness and Mahon credit committee application of 8 August 1990.
b) Guinness and Mahon credit committee application of 21 August 1989.
c) Guinness and Mahon credit committee memorandum of 7 July 1987.
d) Letter of 13 April 1989 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.

n
CREDIT OOMMITTBB APPLICATION

Unit ' "3.5 M. Dublin Minute No: Date: V r ^
ffliW/RENEWAL/IMgKBASH/RBDUCTION/XK8MHMBHT: Credit Class: Satiafactory
BORROWER: James Griffin (Jnr)
AMOUNT: US$62,000 (Reduction from US$75,000)
PROPOSAL & PURPOSE OP FACILITY(S):
Loan originally approved in July 1987 at the request of Ansbacher. A
capital reduction for the year ended 1989 of US$13,000 has been received
and we are asked to extend the reduced facility for a further twelve
months. ,
Source of Repayment, Repayment Programme & Final Maturity: —
^ Subject to annual review.
^-nJc's income (including Return on capital):
h --gin 1% (No use of capital)
S»—mrity and Security Margin: — — — — — _
2nd Mortgage over freehold property at 9751 SW 99th Street, Miami,
Fxorida. I
2. Deposit of US$62,000 from Ansbacher. ' i
3. Security is adequate. '
Other Conditions Precedent; """"
Other Information:
BANK'S RISK EXPOSURE - Aggregate (inclusive of this proposal) to:

Customer Related Customer Total
Committed/Limit: US$62,000 — £38,050
^ Country
Balance:RisFT US$62,000 — ; £38,050
r onary
mtiiru Risk:
B4«1r* Limit: Country of Primary Risk:USA
Cotnmt: Secondary Risk:USA
... Drawn: Domicile:USA
Sector Risk:
sector: Limit: GM Business Sector:Personal
Commt: CBofl Business Sector:10.0
Drawn: Risk Asset WelqhtlngtOffset
introduced by: Ansbacher Recommended by:C.A. Waite
Decision
Credit Committee Chairman

Minute No: Minute No:
Dublin Board Date: GM&Co. Date:

/CC
n
CREDIT COMMITTEE APPLICATION

Unit: Ci.a H. Dublin Minute Ho: / D a t e : Xt. t>
11^/gaafSyAL/IMCU^g/ia^ : credit Class Satisfactory
BORROWER/OBLIGOR J James Griffin
AMOUNT: US$75,000
PROPOSAL 6 PURPOSE OF FACILITY(S):
Loan originally approved in July 1997 at the request of Ansbacher. We
have been requested to extend loan for further year. Security consists of
2nd Mortgage over property In Miami, we also hold a Deposit from
Ansbacher. Recommend we agree to extend for further yepr.
Source of Repayment, Repayment programme & Final Maturity:
Subject to annual review.
mc>s income (including seturn on capital):
Margin 1%
" -ninty and Security Margin: .
. , 2nd Mortgage over freehold property at 97S1 SW 99th Street, Miami.
2) Deposit of US$ 75,000 from Ansbacher. f
3) Security is adequate. r
other Conditions Precedent:
other information:
B W s RISK MxttaStttai - Aggregate (inclusive of t h i s proposal) fco:
Customer Related Customer Total
Committed/Limit: US$75,000 - US$75,000
Balance: US$75.000 - US$75.000
country R i s k : •
i»*lmary Risk: Limit: Country of Primary Risk:USA
Commt: Secondary Risk:USA
Drawn: Domicile:
f tor Risk:
- -ctor: Limit: GM Businass Sector:Personal
Coiwnt: CBofl Business Sector:10.0
Drawn: Risk Asset Weighting:Offset
introduced by: Ansbaciier Recommended by: j. Ryaii
Decision:
Minute No: Minute No:
Dublin Board Date: GMSCo. Date:

/CC
H/jT^.
ADDRESS:
Mr. J a m e s Griffin 1 j n r .
9751 S.V/. 99th Street, Miami, Florida.

c dwflt MinMfifldMi D P C .
Submltwdby:
Equity Slikt; N/A
9
C.B. Approval: *NVmOC N/A
OCOIPATKJN: C u s t o m e r introduced by G M C T Pw million Obtained
D»l*:
THIS APPLICATION: Haw PicililY M
"Exiilint facililin ovtrtaf
(Othtt M JppropriHll
TYPE: AMOUNT: .t.7§«899. KATE: JJ3b..£taed PEE: Sf.g. n.im
(Margin 1%)
IL«TMMIM*MHLM»H*«*M
PURPOSE/DRAWDOWN: If iww nf Inumml

F• TVWMWWV
/
""*v 'Irvestment purposes. fadlKta, li drawdown
ptrmitMd prior to
eomWatlon of Moiritv?
i YESMIf)
TERM OF FACILITIES: REVIEW DATES:
1 year. 24.6.88
SOURCE OP REPAYMENT:
From Investments. *
SECURITY: tf additional or •xisting

fKility. is wcurlty In onktl
a). 2nd Mortgage over client's home - 0751 S.W. 99th Street,
Miami, Florida M " 0
^m^ b). Funds held in name of GMCT jf No; glva dttiili Mparatriy.
Documents o f 2nd Mortgage
will follow In due course.
BACKGROUND NOTE/
OUTLINE OF PROPOSAL:
Faculty requested by GMCT for Griffin who is their customer.
Ralattd Facilitiat/Borrowart: CREDIT COMMITTEE

IBalanc* or Limit, whichtvar I* graittrl %
Mlnut* >±w.. ; D.«. d . z L ±
...Jf.
R«ea(jpm*nd*d
BOARD
TOM* 6xp05ur»: £51,500 Minuta... S*JL » J.4..

Ansbacher Limited
* A Mtmhtr 'tftht Hmrr Anthtthet HoUmm PIC Mmhjnr Brnikx* Gtoup
C O B,,. <M7. CnnJCtvnun. Bfirah W«w Indict

H»w S | C91 •H9445V4
Ttlrr CP 410$
F»«; I8C9J 449-7940
<8091 449-5Z6T
April 13, 1989
BY COURIER
Mr. P a d r a i g C o l l e r y
G u i n n e s s & Mahor. L e d .
17 C o l l e g e Green
Dublin 2
IRELAND
Dear Padraig,
Ref: U n i v e r s a l C r e d i t Back t o Back
I
P l e a s e f i n d e n c l o s e d a c h e q u e from J a m e s G r i f f i n Jrifc.,
f o r U S $ 4 , 1 2 5 . 0 0 b e i n g i n t e r e s t on t h e a b o v e b a c k t o b a c k
t o 3 1 s t December 1 9 8 8 .
No doubc you w i l l a d v i s e u s when you c r e d i t our
c l i e n t s p o r t i o n t o o u r CM D o l l a r a c c o u n t .
Best regards.
Yours s i n c e r e l y ,
tin..
WGD/cra \
Appendix XV (51) Mrs Jennifer Guinness
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to
Mrs Jennifer Guinness.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mrs Jennifer Guinness dated 18 April 2000.
b) Statement of Jennifer Guinness of 18 April 2000.
c) Letter of 4 December 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.
d) Letter of 16 November 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and

Mahon.
e) Letter of 12 August 1991 - JD Traynor to IIB.
f) Letter of 13 December 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
g) Letter of 2 March 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
h) Letter of 23 September 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
i) Letter of 8 February 1993 - Hamilton Ross Co Limited to IIB.
j) Letter of 3 March 1993 - Hamilton Ross Co Limited to IIB.
k) Letter of 17 May 1993 - Joan Williams to IIB.
1) Trust Deed of 28 January 1972.
T
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF
MRS. JENNIFER GUINNESS
UNDER OATH
ON TUESDAY, 18TH APRIL 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
THE INSPECTORS: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MS. MACKEY B.L.
SOLICITOR TO THE INSPECTORS: MS. M. CUMMINS
INTERVIEWEE: MRS. JENNIFER GUINNESS
INSTRUCTED BY: MR. MICHAEL O'SHEA
KENNEDY McGONAGLE BALLAGH
2 0 NORTHUMBERLAND ROAD
DUBLIN 4
1 THE INTERVIEW COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY,
2 18TH APRIL 2000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mrs. Guinness, we will
5 start our interview. I am
7 you know, we have been appointed two of the
8 Inspectors by the High Court. I explain to people
9 who we wish to interview such as you, Mrs. Guinness,
10 that we are not a court, we are not a tribunal but
11 this is merely just an interview. It will be under
12 oath and I will ask our solicitor, Ms. Cummins, to
13 administer the oath in a moment to you. There is
14 one preliminary point I should make, if at any time
15 you wish to consult your solicitor about a question
16 that we ask, please tell us you wish to do so and we
17 will stop asking you questions and you can consult
18 your solicitor. Similarly, your solicitor can
19 inform us if there is any question that we are
20 asking you on which he thinks he should give you
21 legal advice, and he can tell us and we will stop.
22
23 I will ask Ms. Cummins to administer the oath now.
24
25
26
27
28
29
3
1 MRS. JENNIFER GUINNESS HAVING BEEN SWORN WAS
2 INTERVIEWED, AS FOLLOWS, BY THE INSPECTORS
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mrs. Guinness, I will ask
5 Ms. Mackey to ask you some
6 questions.
7 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Good morning,
8 Mrs. Guinness. I am going
9 to ask you questions by reference to the statement
10 that you supplied us with and I know all this
11 happened quite a while ago and many of the events
12 may not be clear in your mind. If at any time you
13 simply do not remember something, it will be quite
14 sufficient to say that you do not remember it. Do
15 you have a copy of the statement that you can refer
16 to? (Exhibit 1)
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 2 Q. First of all, your late husband was, I think,
19 Chairman of Guinness & Mahon; is that correct?
20 A. That's right.
21 3 Q. You say here in your statement that after his death
22 in 1988 Mr. Traynor who was a personal friend of
23 yours asked you to call to his office and explained
24 to you the matters that you set out then. Was
25 Mr. Traynor a personal friend of you and your
26 husband for a long time going back a long way?
27 A. Yes.
28 4 Q. Could you tell me a little bit about when you got to
29 know him?
4
1 A. Really ever since I knew John. I don't remember, it
2 would have been in 1961 or 1962 when we came back to
3 live in Dublin.
4 5 Q. He was a friend of your husband's?
5 A. Yes .
6 6 Q. Before you knew him?
7 A. Yes .
8 7 Q. Then of course they were both in Guinness Mahon?
9 A. That's right.
10 8 Q. Apart from a business association, you and your
11 husband always had a personal friendship with
12 Mr. Traynor, would that be right?
13 A. It was very closely business personal linked. I
14 don't suppose you can really divide the two, they
15 worked together and they were business partners as
16 well as friends.
17 9 Q. But you met socially as well?
18 A. Yes .
19 10 Q. You go on to say that when Mr. Traynor asked you to
20 call in to see him, he told you, in general terms
21 anyway, that your husband had established a Trust
22 for your benefit and that of your children. During
23 your husband's lifetime had you heard of this Trust?
24 A. Not really. You see there was Guinness Mahon
25 Cayman.
26 11 Q. You knew of Guinness Mahon Cayman?
27 A. I knew that something existed there because he and
28 Des Traynor went there.
29 12 Q. They went out to Cayman?

1 A. Yes .
2 13 Q. Your husband went out?
3 A. Yes .
4 14 Q. You were aware that there was an entity called
6 A. Yes .
7 15 Q. Did you know that was a subsidiary of Guinness
8 Mahon?
9 A. I don't know, I didn't get involved in the details
10 at all, I am afraid. I just was aware that they had
11 an interest in Cayman.
12 16 Q. What did you know then about a Trust that might have
13 been set up for your benefit and your children
14 during your husband's lifetime?
15 A. Absolutely nothing.
16 17 Q. You did not know anything about it at all?
17 A. No.
18 18 Q. This was the first you heard of this Trust?
19 A. Yes, you have to understand that my husband was a
20 banker, a merchant banker in the old fashioned sense
21 of the word and confidentiality meant
22 confidentiality. He never really discussed business
23 affairs with me. I used to get a bit cross with him
24 at times but he wouldn't discuss any business
25 matters with us at all.
26 19 Q. After your husband's death anyway Mr. Traynor told
27 you that your husband had in fact established this
28 Trust?
29 A. Yes .
1 20 Q. Can you recollect what he told you about that Trust?
2 A. Not really.
3 21 Q. Did he tell you it was a discretionary Trust?
4 A. He didn't go in to details.
5 22 Q. Did he explain when or how the Trust had been set
6 up?
7 A. No.
8 23 Q. He did say it was in the Cayman Islands?
9 A. Yes.
10 24 Q. Did he say Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust was the
11 Trustee?
12 A. I have no idea. I am sorry, I really just don't
13 remember.
14 25 Q. I am asking you detailed questions about it because
15 they might jog your memory. Did he mention a
16 Mr. Furze in connection with it?
17 A. I knew the name, but it was more John Collins I
18 think is a name that I remember. I am not sure if I
19 ever met Mr. Furze.
20 26 Q. You met Mr. Collins, did you?
21 A. I think so.
22 27 Q. Anyway in connection with this particular occasion
23 when Mr. Traynor told you about the Trust, you do
24 not recollect that he mentioned Mr. Furze as being
25 involved?
26 A. No.
27 28 Q. He told you apparently that you and your children
28 were beneficiaries?
29 A. Yes.
7
1 29 Q. Did he say to you that a company was holding the
2 funds of the Trust?
3 A. I don't think so, he just said there was a Trust in
4 Cayman for us.
5 30 Q. That was really all you remember. Does the name
6 National Finance Association ring any bells?
7 A. No, I am afraid not.
8 31 Q. You do not remember him mentioning that in
9 connection with the trust?
10 A. Mr. Traynor very seldom said very much. He would
11 have just said there was a Trust in Cayman for us
12 and that would have been the end of the matter.
13 32 Q. Would he have explained how you were going to
14 benefit from this Trust?
15 A. He sort of indicated if I needed money to spend, I
16 could ask for it.
17 33 Q. Ask him?
18 A. Yes .
19 34 Q. Did he give you the impression that that would not
20 be a problem, that at any time you required money
21 you should just ask him?
22 A. Yes, I think he probably did, but again it wasn't
23 money to be used day to day in Ireland. It was
24 money to spend on holidays, airline tickets and that
25 sort of thing. I wasn't to assume that I could just
26 draw down on a regular basis money to use in
27 Ireland.
28 35 Q. You could draw it down, that was the point?
29 A. Yes .
1 36 Q. On the occasions, because you say in your statement
2 you subsequently availed of that from time to time,
3 on the occasions in which you did, what did you do?
4 Did you ring him or write to him?
5 A. I rang him.
6 37 Q. What would you say to him?
7 A. I would say, 'Des, look I am going to Australia' or
8 I am going to wherever and he would say 'fine'.
9 38 Q. You would just tell him the amount you wanted?
10 A. Yes. It was never in cash, it would always have
11 been in travellers cheques.
12 39 Q. On occasion would it be transferred to your bank
13 account?
14 A. Not in this country.
15 40 Q. In London?
16 A. I had an account in Barclays Bank in Great
17 Missenden, I think.
18 41 Q. On occasion if you wished funds transferred to that
19 account, you told him; is that it?
20 A. I can't really remember. I remember going to CRH
21 and collecting travellers cheques but I don't
22 remember -- I was trying to remember about the
23 Barclays bank accounts that you asked about, but I
24 don't really remember.
25 42 Q. You do not remember. We have some correspondence
26 between Des Traynor and Guinness Mahon in relation
27 to those which I will show you in a moment. When
28 you wished to have travellers cheques, having
29 contacted Mr. Traynor, you would go along to his

1 office in CRH and pick them up there?
2 A. Yes.
3 43 Q. You would meet occasionally Ms. Williams?
4 A. Yes.
5 44 Q. You knew Ms. Williams?
6 A. Yes.
7 45 Q. You say in the second paragraph of your statement:
8 "After my return to Ireland I saw

Mr. Traynor from time to time and on
9 many of these occasions he showed me
statements which gave the value of the
10 Trust."
11
12 Could you tell me a little bit about these
13 statements. Did he give them to you?
14 A. No.
15 4 6 Q. He showed them to you?
16 A. Yes.
17 47 Q. At the time, going back to when he first told you
18 the Trust was being set up, did he give you
19 documents in relation to it?
20 A. No.
21 48 Q. None at all?
22 A. No.
23 49 Q. Did you ask him if he could provide you with
24 documents?
25 A. No.
26 50 Q. In relation to the statements, can you describe them
27 to me?
28 A. They were just ....(INTERJECTION).
29 51 Q. Were they on headed paper?
10
1 A. They were sort of like bank statements, I don't
2 think they had any heading.
3 52 Q. Just like bank statements?
4 A. They looked like bank statements. I didn't really
5 pay a lot of attention to them.
6 53 Q. Do you recollect if they had the name of a bank or a
7 company on top?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 54 Q. Do you recollect if they were unheaded?
10 A. They weren't on formal headed paper like that, they
11 were just a bank statement.
12 55 Q. What sort of information appeared on those?
13 A. Probably a list of stocks and shares.
14 56 Q. A list of stocks and shares. Did these appear to be
15 the statement of affairs of a company?
16 A. I have no idea. I presumed they were just the
17 things that John had had in this Trust and I was
18 supposed to just have a look at them.
19 57 Q. Would Mr. Traynor go through them with you?
20 A. Not really.
21 58 Q. He would just hand them to you?
22 A. Yes, I think probably to keep his records straight
23 or something. I get statements every so often
24 because I am supposed to look at my stocks and
25 shares, but I just look at them.
26 59 Q. Would it ultimately show the balance of the funds
27 held?
28 A. But I don't remember what it was.
29 60 Q. You do remember that there was a balance, it would
11
1 show you the state of it; would it?
2 A. I imagine so, most bank statements do, but I am
3 awfully hazy about it, it was just a piece of
4 statement.
5 61 Q. It showed transactions and almost certainly it
6 showed a balance?
7 A. I am sure it would have shown a balance but it was
8 more a list of stocks and shares and I don't think
9 it showed transactions. There was no profit and
10 loss statement or anything like that.
11 62 Q. As you say, it was like a bank statement?
12 A. Like a bank statement.
13 63 Q. Like a bank statement did it show the interest that
14 had accrued?
15 A. I don't know, I shouldn't think so, I just don't
16 know. I just remember a list of stocks and shares
17 down the left-hand side and, presumably, it had a
18 valuation.
19 64 Q. When Mr. Traynor told you this Trust had been set
20 up, did he tell you the value of the Trust? I am
21 not asking you for the value, but whether he told
22 you about it at the time?
23 A. I am sure I probably could have looked at the list
24 of stocks and shares and worked it out, but we
25 didn't mention ....(INTERJECTION).
26 65 Q. Do you recollect whether it was a substantial
27 amount ?
28 A. I don't, but I assume it probably was a reasonable
29 amount, but that is as much in hindsight.
12
1 66 Q. Moving on down through your statement, well, just
2 before we come to that, were you one of the
3 executors of your husband's estate, Mrs. Guinness?
4 A. Yes .
5 67 Q. You were?
6 A. I don't know. Could I ask?
7 68 Q. Certainly.
8 A. Yes, I think Peter and I were, my brother in-law and
9 I.
10 69 Q. Can you recollect at this stage Mrs. Guinness, and I
11 realise you might not be prepared for this question,
12 can you recollect when returning a schedule of your
13 husband's assets to the Revenue Commissioners in the
14 administration of his estate if you listed as an
15 asset the Trust funds?
16 A. I think I discovered about the Trust much later.
17 70 Q. After the estate had been administered?
18 A. I don't know, I really don't.
19 71 Q. You cannot remember the sequence?
20 A. No, I can't remember the sequence.
21 72 Q. So you cannot say whether or not you returned the
22 Trust funds on the schedule of assets for the
23 estate?
24 A. I didn't.
25 73 Q. You did not, okay.
26 A. I don't think I really realised the Trust funds had
27 anything to do with the estate in Ireland. It is
28 all a bit hazy. It sounds as though I was very
29 disinterested, but friends of John's were sort of

1 minding me and I really didn't express any huge
2 interest in anything.
3 74 Q. Did you have a legal advisor or accountant at that
4 stage that might have been dealing with those
5 matters ?
6 A. With what?
7 75 Q. To help you with the administration of the estate.
8 A. There were so many, there were a huge number of
9 people helping.
10 76 Q. Did you have a specific solicitor?
11 A. Liam McGonagle.
12 77 Q. Would he have been dealing with the legal affairs,
13 winding up your husband's affairs and so on of his
14 estate?
15 A. Pretty well so, yes.
16 78 Q. Were you yourself, Mrs. Guinness, a beneficiary
17 under your husband's will?
18 A. Yes, because I inherited it all.
19 79 Q. You were the sole beneficiary?
20 A. Yes, I think so, apart from a few small bequests.
21 80 Q. Could you, Mrs. Guinness, provide us with a copy of
22 the will and the Revenue affidavit?
23 A. I am sure I could, yes.
24 81 Q. Thank you very much. Going back to your statement
25 here, you say in the second paragraph that at some
26 of these meetings you had with Mr. Traynor you
27 expressed a general unease about the Trust. Could
28 you tell me a little more about that and why you
29 became uneasy?
1 A. He had Lloyds, he was a member of Lloyds and I
2 didn't like that because my father had been a member
3 of Lloyds and you felt your whole house was at risk
4 and I don't really like stocks and shares very much.
5 I don't really have a huge interest, so I wanted to
6 get out of that, out of Lloyds. This thing was much
7 the same sort of thing, it was just something I
8 didn't understand. I felt that it was something
9 maybe if you were a banker you could handle, but I
10 didn't like it.
11 82 Q. You go on to say that you think on reflection this
12 was because of a nagging worry about taxation, what
13 specifically worried you about the taxation aspects
14 of it?
15 A. It was a little bit cloak and dagger going to
16 collect travellers cheques.
17 83 Q. You felt the secrecy aspect of it did not appeal to
18 you?
19 A. I just believe if you live in a country you should
20 pay your taxes. Life is much less complicated if
21 you pay your taxes in the country you live in, like
22 paying VAT on boats and things. It is much easier
23 if you pay your tax, then you don't have to worry.
24 84 Q. Did you understand at that time that in some way or
25 other tax was not being paid on these transactions?
26 A. I was beginning to wonder but again, I suppose I
27 didn't question because these were, as far as I was
28 concerned, very reputable people who had been
29 friends and it is very hard to believe that the
15
1 person -- I mean banking was a very respectable
2 profession and it is very hard to believe that
3 people aren't as straight...
4 85 Q. As you expect.
5 A. It took a long time, I suppose, before I actually
6 began to worry. I was trying to get my life
7 together and it was a long time before I started to
8 question.
9 86 Q. When you did begin to worry you mentioned it to
10 Mr. Traynor, as you say here. How did he react to
11 you expressing worry about the taxation aspect of
12 it? Did he reassure you?
13 A. I am sure he probably did. The sequence of events,
14 I don't really remember. I do remember the Tax
15 Amnesty coming up and the huge relief that now this
16 was going to be easy to deal with.
17 87 Q. By the time the Tax Amnesty came up then, you were
18 in your own mind satisfied that tax was due, on the
19 interest on this deposit; is that correct?
20 A. I suppose it seemed like a golden opportunity to
21 clear the whole thing up because people weren't
22 giving me, perhaps, the straightest of answers when
23 I did ask.
24 88 Q. People being?
25 A. Well, Des.
26 89 Q. You felt he was not explaining the things correctly
27 to you?
28 A. No, I don't even remember what I asked him. As I
29 say, it was just a general feeling that this perhaps
16
1 wasn't something I wanted to continue.
2 90 Q. In relation to the Tax Amnesty then, were you
3 complying with the Tax Amnesty specifically in
4 respect of the interest that was accruing on the
5 Trust funds?
6 A. I have no idea.
7 91 Q. Mr. Reid was your advisor there?
8 A. Yes .
9 92 Q. Mr. Reid, as you say, came to advise you about that.
10 You had heard of him but you had not met him, so do
11 you know whether he advised your husband originally
12 in the setting up of this Trust?
13 A. I have no idea. I think the Trust was there for a
14 long, long time.
15 93 Q. You do not know when it was set up, do you?
16 A. No.
17 94 Q. Did Mr. Reid, when he came to advise you on this,
18 did you have to explain to him the setting up of the
19 Trust or had Mr. Traynor done that?
20 A. No, it was slightly different. Mr. Traynor just
21 said Don Reid would set it up and deal with it all
22 for me, so I just went along to SKC, I think it was
23 then, and just signed a piece of paper.
24 95 Q. You just signed a piece of paper, there was no
25 discussion about the Trust or anything else?
26 A. No.
27 96 Q. You had no discussions whatsoever with Mr. Reid?
28 A. No.
29 97 Q. None?
1 A. I suppose I might have met him, but I don't think
2 there was any detailed discussion. He just dealt
3 with it.
4 98 Q. We must presume then that the information he got, he
5 got from Mr. Traynor?
6 A. Yes.
7 99 Q. It would appear then that Mr. Reid must have a
8 certain amount of knowledge about the workings of
9 this Trust and how it was set up and so on. If we
10 contact him, he should be able to give us some
11 information or tell us what documents he had before
12 him at that stage?
13 A. I have no idea. There was a promise of
14 confidentiality around the Tax Amnesty, so I am not
15 sure that he would know.
16 100 Q. That he himself would know?
17 A. I don't know.
18 101 Q. I think the confidentiality related to not revealing
19 the details of the person availing of the Amnesty or
20 complying with the Amnesty.
21 A. I have no idea, I didn't see the legislation.
22 102 Q. Presumably Mr. Reid in order to undertake
23 negotiations with the Revenue Commissioners must
24 have known something about your affairs or your
25 husband's affairs?
26 A. I presume so.
27 103 Q. You then say that the assets of the Trust were
28 appointed to yourself and to your children at this
29 time and the Trust was dissolved. How do you know
18
1 that the assets were appointed to you?
2 A. Well, the money just arrived in Ireland.
3 104 Q. You did not see a Deed of Appointment?
4 A. No.
5 105 Q. Did Mr. Traynor say anything?
6 A. No.
7 106 Q. When you say the money arrived in Ireland, did you
8 ask that it would arrive or how did that come about?
9 A. No, it didn't go to Guinness Mahon, it went to NCB
10 because we had fallen out with Guinness Mahon, I had
11 no more accounts with Guinness Mahon.
12 107 Q. What I am really trying to find out here is what
13 caused the money to arrive in Ireland. Some
14 decision must have been made by somebody.
15 A. I am sure Des just arranged for it to be
16 transferred.
17 108 Q. Did he tell you he was going to do this or did you
18 ask him?
19 A. I have no idea. The money came.
20 109 Q. It arrived in NCB under your name?
21 A. Yes, it joined into my portfolio there.
22 110 Q. In NCB. When you say the Trust was dissolved, you
23 simply mean that no more happened after that. As
24 far as you were concerned ....(INTERJECTION).
25 A. It was closed down.
26 111 Q. You do not have a document or anything to show?
27 A. No.
28 112 Q. Or any letter from Mr. Traynor?
29 A. No. You see it wasn't really my Trust anyway. If
19
1 it had been my Trust, I would have been able to deal
2 with it, it wasn't my Trust, it was something that
3 was overseas and I just happened to be the
4 beneficiary of it. I really didn't have any hand or
5 part in it.
6 113 Q. Yes, I understand. I would just like to show you
7 some of the correspondence that we have between
8 Des Traynor and Guinness Mahon, just to ask you if
9 you recognise particular payments referred to and so
10 on. Could we look at page 12 (SAME HANDED TO
11 MRS. GUINNESS)(Exhibit 2). You have a document
12 there in front of you which is a letter from
13 Guinness Mahon from Mr. Traynor on 4th December 1990
14 to David Humphries of Guinness Mahon. You see there
15 it asks him to have travellers cheques ready for you
16 and at the bottom you see the amount is to be
17 debited to the Ansbacher Limited account, number
18 13154602 and that was the Ansbacher pooled account
19 in Guinness Mahon in which various people who had
20 accounts with Ansbacher had their sub-accounts and
21 from which they could withdraw money. Do you
22 recollect that particular transaction or does it
23 appear to you to be one of the transactions you have
24 been talking about?
25 A. I presume it is one of the ones we are talking
26 about. I was trying to remember whether we went to
27 Australia in December 1990 or 1989, but it would
28 have been ....(INTERJECTION).
29 114 Q. In any event this would appear to you to be the kind
20
1 of transaction whereby you would go to Mr. Traynor
2 and ask for money from the Trust?
3 A. That's right.
4 115 Q. It appears from this document that in fact the money
5 was coming out of an account in Guinness Mahon in
6 the name of Ansbacher?
7 A. Yes.
8 116 Q. Can I ask you to look at another document which is
9 page 21. (SAME HANDED TO MRS. GUINNESS)(Exhibit 3).
10 Again you see it is a similar letter from
11 Mr. Traynor to the same person in Guinness Mahon
12 dated 16th November 1992. Here the amount to be
13 debited is to be debited to Ansbacher Limited Re
14 Poinciana Fund Number 2 account. Does that name
15 mean anything, have you ever heard that?
17 117 Q. Again does that appear to be one of the transactions
18 that you would have had with Mr. Traynor?
19 A. I presume so.
20 118 Q. I will just show you maybe two more of around that
21 time, page 13 and 14. (SAME HANDED TO
22 MRS. GUINNESS)(Exhibits 4 & 5). Actually, if you
23 just look at all of those, Mrs. Guinness, and
24 confirm to me that they appear to you to be the
25 transactions you were carrying out with Mr. Traynor.
26 If we could just go through them page by page, you
27 will see that the pages are numbered down at the
28 bottom right hand corner, so if we go through them
29 in that order. Page 13 is a letter of 12th August
21
1 1991 (Exhibit 4)and it is signed with an
2 indecipherable signature for Ansbacher Limited and
3 it is addressed this time to Irish Intercontinental
4 Bank. I do not know whether you know or not that
5 the Ansbacher account was transferred at a
6 particular point from Guinness Mahon to Irish
7 Intercontinental Bank which is why he is writing
8 there. Again you see it is in respect this time of
9 a transfer to your account in Barclay's and again
10 the cost is to be debited to the Ansbacher account,
11 this time in IIB.
12 A. I never would have seen these letters, I would have
13 only just rung Des and said, 'look, I need a bit
14 more money.'
15 119 Q. All I am concerned with at this stage is to see
16 whether they appear to be the sort of transactions
17 you would have gone to Mr. Traynor about.
18 A. I don't really know because I wasn't really involved
19 in this end of it.
20 120 Q. When I say the sort of transactions, you would be
21 asking him to transfer £2,000 to your account in
22 Barclay's. It is unlikely to be anything other than
23 you withdrawing money from the Trust fund?
24 A. Unlikely, yes.
25 121 Q. If we look at page 14, we see a letter of
26 13th December (Exhibit 6) and it is signed this time
27 by Joan Williams, who was Mr. Traynor's secretary?
28 A. That's right.
29 122 Q. To IIB and again it refers to a transfer, this time
22
1 of £15,000stg. to your Barclay's bank account?
2 A. Yes.
3 123 Q. The cost to be debited to Ansbacher. Page 16,
4 (Exhibit 7)a similar transaction signed by Joan
5 Williams to IIB, 2nd March 1992 and it is another
6 transfer of sterling to Barclay's Bank, the cost to
7 be debited to Ansbacher. On page 17 you have the
8 23rd September 1992 (Exhibit 8) and this time a
9 transfer of £5,000stg. to Barclay's and the cost to
10 be debited to Ansbacher. At page 18 we are in to
11 1993 and it is 8th February (Exhibit 9)and again it
12 is a transfer of £5,000stg. to your account in
13 Barclays and this time it refers to debiting the
14 cost to the Hamilton Ross account. Are you familiar
15 with that? Again that was a further account used by
16 Mr. Traynor in which to keep the funds of persons
17 who had a relationship with Ansbacher, who had money
18 in Ansbacher. On page 19, 3rd March 1993, (Exhibit
19 10) Joan Williams writing to IIB asking to transfer
20 £6,000stg. to your account in Barclay's Bank.
21 Finally page 20, on 17th May 1993 there is the
22 transfer of £3,000 to Barclay's Bank. That appears
23 to be quite a number of transactions in the space of
24 a couple of years. Would you have been withdrawing
25 on a fairly frequent basis as is indicated by those?
26 A. I am just trying to remember what I spent it on. I
27 know I spent a lot on air fares because I was
28 sailing around the world and I came backwards and
29 forwards quite a lot. The rest would have been on
23
1 going to London and clothes, that sort of thing.
2 124 Q. Getting back to the return of the funds, that must
3 have been later in 1993, was it, or was it early in
4 1994 that that happened when you complied with the
5 Amnesty?
6 A. Late 1993.
7 125 Q. Just again to try and clarify what actually happened
8 and how the funds came back to NCB. Here we see
9 that whenever you wished to carry out some
10 transaction you contacted Mr. Traynor and then he
11 did the rest.
12 A. Yes.
13 126 Q. When it came to complying with the Tax Amnesty, you
14 needed to have that money back here and did you then
15 ask Mr. Traynor to return the balance of it here?
16 A. As far as I remember when the Tax Amnesty was
17 announced, I rang my brother-in-law and asked him to
18 come over because he was really my
19 ....(INTERJECTION).
20 127 Q. Mr. Traynor rang you?
21 A. No, I did. We went to see Des and said, 'look, I
22 want to avail of the Amnesty' and he said, 'fine, I
23 will arrange it' as far as I remember. The next
24 thing was he said that Don Reid would act for us in
25 this matter and negotiate with the Revenue here.
26 Then eventually we just went along and signed some
27 papers and the money was transferred to my stocks or
28 shares, well, the stocks and shares must have been
29 transferred to NCB.
24
1 128 Q. How did you know it had been transferred?
2 A. Because it appeared in my account in NCB.
3 129 Q. Did anyone tell you before that that this was going
4 to happen?
5 A. I don't understand.
6 130 Q. The money was over there in Cayman or in Dublin,
7 wherever it was, it was in a Trust?
8 A. I never thought of the money being in Dublin. I
9 always assumed that it was actually genuinely in a
10 bank in Cayman.
11 131 Q. Wherever it physically was, it was in Trust
12 somewhere?
13 A. Yes .
14 132 Q. Because of the Tax Amnesty and because, as you
15 explained, you wanted to clear up the whole thing,
16 you wanted to make a settlement with the Revenue
17 Commissioners, pay whatever tax was outstanding and
18 then, presumably, you wanted to be finished with
19 this Trust?
20 A. Yes .
21 133 Q. Mr. Reid on your behalf dealt with the Revenue
22 Commissioners, but how exactly did you finish with
23 the Trust? Did you say to Mr. Traynor, 'look, close
24 down this Trust and bring the money back here' or
25 what?
26 A. I suppose so, I don't really remember. It just
27 happened. He must have closed it down.
28 134 Q. It is just that obviously you know these things do
29 not just happen by themselves. Someone was given an
25
1 instruction?
2 A. I instructed Des Traynor to finish with the Trust.
3 135 Q. You actually said to him?
4 A. I don't remember what I said to him, but I just
5 assume that I was sitting around and said, 'look,
6 Des, I want to finish with this, I don't like it.'
7 He would have then said it was all going to be
8 tidied up and brought back here. I don't remember
9 the actual words of the conversation.
10 136 Q. I am sure you do not. Would he not have asked you
11 what you wanted to do with these funds?
12 A. They would have come back here to my portfolio.
13 137 Q. I know that is what happened, as you have explained.
14 Someone must have asked you if that was what you
15 wished to do or did you wish to put them in a bank
16 account or what did you wish to do with these funds
17 that were now going to come back?
18 A. They were in stocks and shares.
19 138 Q. Anyway.
20 A. Yes, I didn't transfer cash into stocks and shares.
21 As I understood it, there was a sort of portfolio in
22 Cayman, innocently I thought it was actually there
23 and I thought that the bank in Cayman would just
24 merely transfer it or the assets of the Trust which
25 were in stocks and shares, some of them were
26 American and some of them were English and they
27 would have come across and gone to NCB.
28 139 Q. Clearly there were funds apart from stocks and
29 shares because you were able to withdraw money?
26
1 A. I have no idea, I don't think I even thought of the
2 detail. You get interest on stocks and shares, so
3 that, presumably, was where -- I didn't know whether
4 they sold stocks and shares, I presume that stocks
5 and shares had some sort of value or income.
6 140 Q. Clearly the money was coming from somewhere that you
7 could draw upon?
8 A. Yes, I presumed that was the income from the stocks
9 and shares in Cayman.
10 141 Q. What happened to that income?
11 A. I don't know, a lot of it must have gone to pay the
12 taxman.
13 142 Q. Did you ask Des Traynor to bring that back or did
14 you distinguish between that?
15 A. I didn't distinguish at all, I just said I wanted
16 the whole thing shut down. I presume they must have
17 had to sell some stocks and shares to pay the tax
18 bill, so there would not have been cash lying
19 around, I wouldn't have thought, at the end of
20 paying the Revenue.
21 143 Q. Is it your understanding that Mr. Reid would have
22 dealt with that aspect of things?
23 A. I don't know whether he did or Des did, but somebody
24 did.
25 144 Q. Did you have any other advisors or any other
26 accountant at that stage?
27 A. No. SKC, and I don't know who was actually the
28 regular accountant in SKC ....(INTERJECTION).
29 145 Q. Are these your accountants or were they?
27
1 A. They were, yes, and they still are. They are KMPG
2 now.
3 146 Q. Yes, that's right. During all of this time when you
4 were worried about the Trust and you were talking to
5 Mr. Traynor about it, did you discuss that with your
6 accountants from SKC at that stage?
7 A. You see, I wasn't really worried. Des was a
8 respectable friend, it was just something that
9 nagged away. I didn't get up every morning or I
10 didn't see Des more than maybe occasionally and ring
11 him up when I asked him for money, but I wouldn't be
12 discussing it with him on a regular basis.
13 147 Q. You did not feel you needed any independent advice
14 on this whole thing to see whether it was okay to
15 continue withdrawing or not?
16 A. It never occurred to me that it wasn't.
17 148 Q. You were a little bit worried?
18 A. Yes, but it took a long time before -- I spent
19 couple of years travelling and getting organised and
20 it took a bit of time before I actually started to
21 get a handle on things. In the beginning it just
22 didn't really matter, money didn't seem terribly
23 important.
24 149 Q. Yes .
25 A. There was plenty of money there for my needs and
26 that was really all...
27 150 Q. That you worried about. I think we might take a
28 five or ten minute break and have a cup of coffee,
29 Mrs. Guinness, and we will come back. I will not

1 have very much more to ask you after that and it
2 will give you time to take a breath.
4 (SHORT ADJOURNMENT)
6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mrs. Guinness, we have no
7 further questions to ask
8 you. What you said today will be transcribed now
9 and we would ask you to come in to sign the
10 transcript, it will be some time after Easter.
11 A. There is one slight correction that Michael O'Shea
12 says I should make and I was thinking about it, but
13 immediately after John died Pat McCann dealt with
14 the regular tax returns to the Revenue because he
15 had an office just around, so immediately afterwards
16 I didn't deal with SKC, I dealt with Pat McCann &
17 Partners. He returned ....(INTERJECTION).
18 151 Q. MS. MACKEY: McCann & Partners?
19 A. Was it McCann & Associates?
20 MR. O'SHEA: I am not sure of the name.
21 A. They had an office in Andrew Street and then they
22 moved down to Winetavern Street and they did all the
23 CAT returns on the children and everything like
24 that.
25 152 Q. MS. MACKEY: They would have been
26 likely to have dealt with
27 the Schedule of Assets for the Revenue?
28 A. I think it is probably -- I just don't know. I
29 don't know whether...
29
1 153 Q. Do you know if they are still in Winetavern Street?
2 A. Yes.
3 154 Q. It is called Pat McCann & Associates?
5 MR. O'SHEA: I will try to
6 find the name for you.
7 MS. MACKEY: If you would, please.
8 A. It was Pat McCann that we dealt with immediately
9 after John died as a tax consultant. I didn't have
10 SKC in those days.
11 155 Q. Okay.
12 A. Just so as you are not looking in the wrong place.
13 MS. MACKEY: Thank you very much.
14 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you.
15
16 END OF INTERVIEW
17
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Appendix XV (51) (l)(b)
STATEMENT OF JENNIFER GUINNESS
My husband John died on 27 February 1988 and a short time afterwards Des Traynor
who was a personal friend of ours asked me to call to his office. I called as requested
a short time later. Mr. Traynor spoke to me about John and while I do not recall his
precise words the gist of it was that my late husband John had established a trust for
the benefit of myself and my children and that the trust was administered in the
Cayman Islands. I now realise that I did not fully appreciate what he said at the time
and indeed it took me a number of years after my husband's death before fully
appreciating the trust and other aspects of my late husband's business affairs. I do
recall Mr. Traynor saying that if I needed funds he would arrange for payment to be
madefrom the trust and I availed of this suggestion to defray the costs of a sailing trip
around the world that I embarked upon after my husband's death. Some other
payments were also made to me by the trustees.
After my return permanently to Ireland, I saw Mr. Traynorfrom time to time and on
many of these occasions he showed me statements which gave the value of the trust.
At some of these meetings I expressed a general unease about the trust, I think, on
reflexion, because of a nagging worry about taxation and also because I had no real
knowledge of the workings of the trust and no control over it or of the funds in the
trust. When the tax amnesty was announced it provided me the opportunity to
regularise my tax affairs and Mr. Traynor agreed to assist me in this. He instructed
Don Reid to act on my behalf. Mr. Reid is a tax expert of whom I had heard but had
not met. Mr. Reid made Returns to the Revenue Commissioners and entered into
negotiations with them on my behalf. Settlement was reached with the Revenue
Commissioners and a payment made to themfrom the funds of the trust which was at
that time distributed. While I signed Returns to the Revenue Commissioners I do not
have copies of these and I do not now recall the details of the discussions and
negotiations undertaken by Mr. Reid with the Revenue Commissioners on the amount
paid to them.
The assets of the trust were appointed to myself and my children at this time and the
trust was dissolved. I had no reason to think of the trust thereafter until the
McCracken and Moriarty Tribunals. Until these Tribunals I was not familiar with the
name Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited or the extent of the trust operations of that Bank.
I do not have and never had in my possession the Trust Deed or Letter of Wishes. I
do not know who the trustees were other than that the trust was administered in the
Cayman Islands. I have no knowledge of Amiens Investments Limited or Kentford
Securities Limited nor of any of the arrangements described in the letter to me of 7
February 2000 from the Office of the Inspectors appointed by Order of the High Court
to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited.
Dated the day of fif'l f 2000

Ansbacher Limited
A Mtmbtr of tht Htnry Ansbachtr Holdings PLC Utrcham Banking Croup
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887, Grand Qiytmn, Britith Wot India
Phone (809) 949-4653/4
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Tetec CP 4303
Dublin! Fax: (809) 949-7946
(809) 949-3267
Tel: 765144/763065 .
Fax: 612035
4th December, 1990.

M. David Humphries, Bsq.,
| 17 College Green,
DOBLIN 2.
| Dear David,
j.
•.crp^Could you please arrange to let me have for collection on
^Friday morning Travellers Cheques issued in the name of
$Mrs. Jennifer Guinness, Censure House, Baily, Co. Dublin.
.. - —i
||/The total value of TravellersTcheques required is Stg.kj,.6.00

ifsad she would like to have half in Sterling cheques arjtTTiSI
"
KVia U.S. Dollar cheques.
• i *
1 >;
would be grateful if you could have someone organise this
jpand advise me of the total Sterling cpst which should be
debited to Ansbacher Limited Account No.13154602.
Appendix XV (51) (l)(d)
FILEUNDER:
Please reply to: Ansbacher Limite I
42 FitrwiHiam Square, P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, tayman Islands, British West Indies
Dublin 2. Telephone: (WW) 949-tttt telex: CP 4305
Tel: 765144/763065 Facsiinile (809) 949-7946 (809) 949-5267
Fax: 612035
16th November, 1992.

S e n i o r Manager - Operations,
*17 College Green,
j DUBLIN 2.
I
1i - '
]Dear David,
i Could you please arrange to let me have for collection some
i U.S. Dollar Travellers Cheques for Mrs. Jennifer Guinness to
(the value of US$8,400.00. The cost should be debited to
j Ansbacher Limited re Poinciana Fund Limited No.2 Account
I No.06428030. 0 0
$ ?OQO /«- '
1
Mrs. Guinness address is: j //too ao's
Censure House,
Censure Hoad,
Baily,
Co. Dublin.
I would appreciate it if I could have these collected from you
on Monday morning 23rd November. I will then have Mrs.
Guinness sign and return the relevant parts to you withd&t
delay.
Kind regards,
Yours sincerely,
J.D. Traynor.
JDT/AJW
A Htmbtr a/ tht Jb*r An&mh* HoUhtgi Pl£ Mtrekmt Anting Croup
Pleasereplyto: f-O. Box 117. Grind Ctymuu WiWi W« fadfe

MMM:<I09)MM4U/4
42 FitzwQliaxD Square, Ttk* CP 4305
Dublin 2. Ftae (109) 949.7946
Tel: 765144/763065
<H9)MM2i7
Rue 612035
12th August, 1991
Garrett iogan, Ssq.,
I r i s h i n t e r c o n t i n e n t a l Bank L i m i t e d ,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Garxrett,
Could you p l e a s e a r r a n g e t o t r a n s f e r S t g . £ 2 , 0 0 0 t o :
B a r c l a y s Bank,
28 High S t r e e t ,
Great Kissenden,
Bucks. SPt6 OAO
f o r c r e d i t t o t h e Account of
Mrs. J e n n i f e r G u i n n e s s
P l e a s e d e b i t t h e c o s t t o Ansbacher L i m i t e d Account No.02/010B7/B1.
Yours s i n c e r e l y .
JDT/AJW
V5U-
Ansbacher Limited
Dublin! Telephone:(JOT)949-8633 Telex:CP4305

TO: 765144/763063 Ficdmae «09) >49-7946 (809) 949-3267
Fax- 612035
13th D t c c n b i r , 1991.
G a r r e t t Lagan, E s q . ,
Irish Intercontinental Bank L i m i t e d , -•
DOBLIN 2. ••
Dear Garrett,
Could you p l e a s e a r r a n g e t h e t r a n s f e r of S t g . E I 5 , 0 0 0 to:

2ft High S t r e e t ,
Great Hisseitden,
Bucks. HP16 OAC7,
Bank Code: 2 0 / 0 2 / 0 6
f o r c r e d i t t o t h e Account of
Mrs. J e n n i f e r Guinness
P l e a s e d e b i t t h e c o a t t o Ansbacher L i m i t e d Account N o . 0 2 / 0 1 0 8 7 / 8 1 . •
I would be g r a t e f u l i f you c o u l d a d v i s e when t h e funds s h o n i a
r e a c h B a r c l a y s so t h a t I may i n t u r n a d v i s e t h e C l i e n t .
Yours sincerely,
h lr*
SBACHER LIMITED
C o V w YfiS&e^
0 ^ UlSVl,
JDT/AJW
A, WtMltK OTTKZ W(S»AC)aH IKTtWATlORU. THUTT 0*0 U? Or COkffAXDO WTTO OmCM „ , 7
Amboe*mwTWM}UMM,iMniKvnoRiBUMH. /12.2.3
cunuocY. Monaco aw jwrmauNo -Z
• llt$
1 4
Please reply to: Ansbacher Limited
42 BtrviDiam Square, P.O. Box 117, Gnad Cayman, Cayman Mindi, British Wat Indie,
Dublin! Takphane: (109) 949465i t«t«c CP 4305
Tel: 765144/763065 Ptotafla (809) 949-7946 (809) 949-5267
Fax: 612035
2nd March, 1992.

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
POBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange the transfer of Stg.SI0,000 to:
Barclays Bank,
28 High Street,
Great Missenden,
Bucks« HS15 OAU,
Bank Codes 20/02/06,
for credit to the Account of
Mrs. Jennifer <j6inness
Account No.00v(06023.
P l . a . . d«bit th* cost t o h u b a e h t r Limit.d Xccount No.
) Yours sinc.r.ly.
Zi-s JsEbnaturi
F o>E
r AWSB
ANSBACHER LIMITED (checked
/AJW
sPf ' " 5a •
. *
* u u o u cr *rm o m a i
Appendix XV (51) (l)(h)
Ansbacher Limited
Please reply to: P.O. Box 117. Grand Cayman. Cayman blinds. British W m tîw
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Telephone: (109) 949-1635 Telex: CP 4305
Dublin 1 Facsimile (109) 949-7946 (809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
23rd September, 1992.
R o n a n Redmond, E s q . *
Corporate Services,
I r i s h I n t e r c o n t i n e n t a l Bank L i m i t e d ,
91. M e r r i o n S q u a r e ,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan, ~
Could you p l e a s e a r r a n g e t o t r a n s f e r Stg.85,000 to

26 H i g h S t r e e t ,
Great Missenden,
B u c k s . HP16 0AU,
Bank C o d e :
for c r e d i t t o the Account of

20/02/06
Mrs. J e n n i f e r Guinness
Account No.00406023. /
/A \J ' w V ^
/
P l e a s e d e b i t t h e c o s t t o Ansbacher L i m i t e I .Account
No.02/01087/81. V
o»l
Yours sincerely.
„ A, —m
V*
F o r ANSBACHER LIMITED
/AJW
A utxaznor TK* ANMAOO» IXTIWATIOHM. NUM anou* or COKMRNU WNN omen

OUKXMZY, MONACO ANSSWTTEOLAMJ
1 7
Appendix XV (51) (l)(i)
P.O. Box 887. Grand Cayman. Cayman Islands. British West Indies
Please rtply to: Telephone: (809) 949-8655 Telex: CP 4303
SqUare
' Facsimile:(809)949-7946, (809)949-5257
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
8th February, 1993.
Corporate Services,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to transfer St?.£5,000 to
Barclays Bank,
28 High Street,
Great Missenden,
Bucks. HP16 0AU,
Bank Code: 20/02/06
Mrs. Jennifer Guinness
Please debit the cost to Hamilton Ross Account No.02/01354/81.
Yours sincerely,
P
111
A
V
For HAMILTON ROSS CO. LIMITED
^ { c o ntinmifg.
5 'C -c
/AJW • "f '..
Appendix XV (51) (1) (j)
Pleasereplyto: P.O. Box 837. Grand Cayman. Cayman Islands. British West Indies
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Telephone (809) 949-8655 Telex: CP 4303
Dublin 2. Facsimile: (809) 949-7944. (809) 949-5267
Td: 765144/763065
Fax- 612035
3rd March, 1993

Corporate Servicea,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to transfer Stg.£6,000 to
Barclays Bank,
28 High Street,
Great Miasenden,
Bucks. HP16 0AU
Bank Code: 20/02/06
Please debit the cost to Hamilton Ross Account No.02/01354/81.
Yours sincerely,
^sc&l.
Appendix XV (51) (1) (k)
P^Bwir.QwdCtynttaOrBunljta^BÂ^,^
43BtndBsDSfHRi Telephone: (109) 9494633 Tele* C? 4305
S Uri: 6765144/676 3065 Facsimile; (109) 949-7946. (809)949-^7
Fax 6612035
17th May, 1993.

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DOB I. IN 2.
Dear Ronan,
Could you pleaae arrange to transfer Stg.£3,000 to
Barclays Bank .
28 High Street
Great Miaaandan
Bucks. HP16 OAU
Bank Coda: 20/02/06
Account No.00406023
Please debit the cost to Hamilton Rosa Account No.02/01354/81
Tours sincerely,
liiil^ -^jt
/AJH
Zoo0
T H I S INDENTURE OF SETTLEMENT i a m a d e t h e >• !> day of —j
A.D. 1 9 7 2 BF.TWEEN J o h n H e n r y G u i n n e s s o f C e n s u r e H o u s e , Censure Rpad,
The n a i l e y , Howth, Ireland (hereinafter called "the Settlor") of the
one p a r t a n d GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED a c o m p a n y incorporated
under the l a w s of t h e Cayman I s l a n d s and c a r r y i n g on b u s i n e s s therein
# v
" ** (hereinafter called "the Trustees" which term s h a l l also include any
additional or successor trustee or trustees hereof) of the other •
" 'part
WHEREAS t h e S e t t l o r h a s c a u s e d the property described in

the F i r s t Schedule hereto (which t o g e t h e r .with t h e money investments
and p r o p e r t y for the time being representing t h e same and any additions
or diminishmonts thereto and any f u r t h e r p r o p e r t y becoming subject
to the trusts hereof is hereinafter called " t h e T r u s t Fund) to be
duly t r a n s f e r r e d • i n t o t h e name o r u n d e r t h e c o n t r o l of the Trustees
with the intent that the same s h a l l b e h e l d u p o n t h e t r u s t s hereinafter
expressed
I
*
NOW T H I S SETTLEMENT WITNESSETH a s follows

• 1. The T r u s t e e s shall stand possessed of t h e T r u s t Fund during
' the period commencing on t h e d a t e o f e x e c u T E I b n of. t h e s e p r e s e n t s and
terminating on t h e expiration of twenty (20) years after the death
of the last survivor of the lineal d 6 s c e n d e n t s now l i v i n g o f His
Lnfce M a j e s t y K i n g G e o r g e t h e F i f t h o r on t h e e x p i r a t i o n of seventy
years from the date hereof (whichever s h a l l be the e a r l i e r ) (said
period boing hereinafter called "the Accumulation Period" and said
*
termination date being hereinafter called "the Fixed Date")

UPON TRUST a s to investments or property other t h a n money either
to permit all or any of the same t o r e m a i n a s i n v e s t e d for as long
as the Trustees shall in their absolute discretion deem f i t or to s e l l call
in or convert i n t o money a l l or any of such investments or property
UPON TRUST a s t o money i n c l u d i n g t h e money a r i s i n g from any such sale
calling in or conversion as aforesaid to invest the same i n or upon(>. _
any of the investments hereinafter authorised ... <•
2. THE T r u s t e e s may a p p l y o r i n v e s t t h e T r u s t Fund i n the
purchase of or at interest upon t h e s e c u r i t y of such s t o c k s funds shares
securities options or other investments or p r o p e r t y whether r e a l or
personal m o v a b l e o r immovable of w h a t e v e r n a t u r e and w h e r e e v e r situate
(including any fractional or undivided interest therein and including
t h e p u r c h a s e m a i n t e n a n c e or improvement of &'.freehold or leasehold
dwellinghouse situate anywhere i n t h e world for u s e a s a r e s i d e n c e ) and
whether involving liability or not and whether producing income or
c
not or upon such p e r s o n a l credit with.or without security as the
Trustees in their absolute discretion shall think fit w i t h power from
time to time t o vary such investments for others of a l i k e nature (yet
being under no duty t o d i v e r s i f y investments) and w i t h power t o hold
cash funds uninvested and o t h e r non-income p r o d u c i n g p r o p e r t y t o t h e ,
extent that the Trustees s h a l l have t h e same f u l l and unrestricted
powers of Investing t h e T r u s t Fund i n a l l respects,as it they were
absolute owners b e n e f i c i a l l y entitled PROVIDED h o w e v e r t h a t in the '
professed execution of t h e t r u s t s and p o w e r s h e r e o f the Trustees shall
not be liable for any l o s s t o t h e T r u s t Fund a r i s i n g by r e a s o n of any
i n v e s t m e n t s made i n good f a i t h o r by r e a s o n of any m i s t a k e o r omission
made i n good f a i t h by t h e T r u s t e e s o r b y r e a s o n of any o t h e r m a t t e r or
thing except wilful and i n d i v i d u a l fraud or wilful and individual
wrong-doing on t h e p a r t o f t h e T r u s t e e s who a r e s o u g h t t o b e m a d e liable
without limiting the generality of t h e f o r e g o i n g the Trustees are
hereby s p e c i f i c a l l y empowered t o make i n v e s t m e n t s a n d t o acquire
property without any requirement of d i v e r s i f i c a t i o n even though such
investments o r p r o p e r t y may b e h i g h l y s p e c u l a t i v e or not of a type
which a r e ordinarily l e g a l or s u i t a b l e tjryjrt i n v e s t m e n t s o r holdings
in particular t h e T r u s t e e s may m a r g i n o r h y p o t h e c a t e trust assets or
securities i n whole or in p a r t sell short purchase or s e l l options puts
calls or other contracts or s e c u r i t i e s o r c o m m o d i t i e s and c a r r y on
trading activities of e v e r y t y p e whatsoever
«
_THE T r u s t e e s s h a l l have t h e power t o s e l l lease or exchange

and t o g r a n t options to purchase lease o r exchange any p r o p e r t y movable
or immovable (which expression s h a l l b e deemed a l w a y s t o i n c l u d e any
part or share of a n y s u c h p r o p e r t y w h i c h may a t any time constitute
t h e whole or any p a r t of t h e T r u s t Fund e i t h e r at public auction or
private sale for such c o n s i d e r a t i o n and on s u c h t e r m s c r e d i t or security
as the Trustees may deem a d v i s a b l e and w h e t h e r for the purpose of
re-investment distribution or d i v e r s i o n a n d no p u r c h a s e r on a n y sale
by t h e T r u s t e e s or other person dealing with the Trustees shall
be concerned to inquire into the propriety or v a l i d i t y of any act
of the Trustees or to see to the application of a n y money paid
or property transferred t o or upon t h e o r d e r of the Trustees.
4. DURING t h e A c c u m u l a t i o n P e r i o d the Trustees shall stand

possessed of the Trust Fund and t h e income t h e r e o f upon the following
trusts that is to say:-
(a) Upon t r u s t for all or any t o t h e e x c l u s i o n of the others
or other of the persona described in the Second Schedule hereto
(hereinafter called "the Beneficiaries") in s u c h s h a r e s and i n .'such
Manner and s u b j e c t to such limitations and p r o v i s i o n s as the Trustees
in their absolute and u n c o n t r o l l e d discretion at arty t i m e o r times
before t h e F i x e d Date by any deed or deeds r e v o c a b l e or irrevocable
without transgressing the rule against porpetuities nay appoint and
so t h a t by any such appointment t h e T r u s t e e s may c o n f e r upon any
appointee any v a l i d pover or powers of 'appointment in favour of any
other Beneficiary AND i t ie expressly provided (without prejudice to
the generality of the foregoing) that t h e T r u s t e e s may a p p o i n t on
discretionary trusts and t h a t such t r u s t s may i n c l u d e as objects of
t h e powers as regards income of t h e T r u s t Fund a n £ B e n e f i c i a r y and
may d i s p o s e of t h e whole o r any p a r t of the Trust Fund t o t h e T r u s t e e s ,
(pf a n y o t h e r Settlement (in existence at the t i m e .of such disposition
t
and whether in accordance with the laws of t h e dayman I s l a n d s or not)
under which any Beneficiary is a beneficiary t o be held a s an accretion
to the Trust Fund t h e r e o f and s u b j e c t t o any such appointment and
so far as the s a m e may n o t extend
(b) Upon T r u s t to accumulate income of t h e T r u s t Fund
in t h e way o f compound I n t e r e s t by i n v e s t i n g the same and t h e resulting
income therefrom in' any of the investments hereinbefore authorised
and adding such .accumulations and r e s u l t i n g income a s a c c r e t i o n s to
and a s a p a r t of. t h e T r u s t Fund
(c) Provided always t h a t the Trustees in their absolute
discretion may p a y o r a p p l y a t any t i m e and from time t o time during
the Accumulation Period all or any p a r t of t h e income or c a p i t a l of
the Trust Fund t o o r f o r the benefit of the Beneficiaries and i f more
than one for any one o r more t o t h e e x c l u s i o n of the other or others
of them and in such shares as t h e T r u s t e e s may i n t h e i r absolute
discretion think fit
(d) Upon t h e termination of the Truat on t h e F i x e d Date
- Upon T m n t nn t o tho balnnan of th" Truat Fund t o or for tho bnnefit
of the children of J n h n Henry G u i n n e s a as s h a l l be living immediately
before the Fixed Dato if more t h a n one in equal sharoe per stirpes
and s u b j e c t ae aforesaid the Trustees shall hold tho capital' and
e
income of the Trust Fund i n T r u s t for tho National Trust of Ireland

and t h e receipts of the Treasurer for the time being of such Charity
shall be a good d i s c h a r g e to the Trustees
i
(e) Any p a y m e n t or a p p l i c a t i o n of the Trust Fund t o o'r for
the benefit of a n y one o r more of the p a r t i e s hereinbefore enumerated
>tnay b e m a d e e i t h e r outright or in t r u s t for the said party or parties
• which t r u s t or trusts may b e f o r m e d by t h e T r u s t e e s with such
if • provisions and upon such t e r m s and c o n d i t i o n s including trusts and
powers exercisable at the discretion of any p e r s o n or p e r s o n s as the
Trustees may i n their absolute discretion think fit
5. IN_addit ion to all t h e powers vested in the Trustees'expressly

or by i m p l i c a t i o n hereunder or by law o r s t a t u t e the Trustees ahall
have a l l tho following p o w e r s a n d may i n t h e i r absolute discretion'
exercise all or any of the same from t i m e t o t i m e in such manner and
to such extent if at all a s may s e e m t o t h e m desirable
i
(a) To r e c e i v e additional property o r d o n a t i o n s by g i f t or

will or by t h e p r o v i s i o n s of any o t h e r trust or t r u s t s or otherwise
from any p e r s o n or persons as additions to this Trust and a s p a r t of the
Trust Fund and t o h o l d t h e same u p o n t h e T r u s t s h e r e i n set for.th and
to administer such additions under the provisions hereof
(b) Vith respect t o any p r o p e r t y constituting the whole or

part of tho Trust Fund t o exercise all p'owers w h i c h individual
oeneficia) dwners might exercise without ueing r e s t r i c t e d in any way
uy t h e office of trustee including (without prejudice to the
generality of the foregoing) the following powers
(i) To p r o m o t e and i n c o r p o r a t e companies to carry on any
business whatsoever and power t o liquidate the same and
distribute their assets in specie or otherwise
(ii) To v o t e upon o r i n r e s p e c t of any s h a r e s securities
bonds n o t e s or o t h e r evidence or i n t e r e s t in or obligations
of nny c o r p o r a t i o n t r u s t a s s o c i a t i o n or concern^whether or
not affecting t h o s o c u r i t y o r t h e a p p a r e n t s e c u r i t y of. any -
part of t h o T r u s t Fund o r t h e p u r c h a s e o r s a l e o r l e a s e of t h e "" "
( i l l ) To g i v e p r o x i e s o r p o w e r s of a t t o r n e y w i t h or
w i t h o u t power of n u h n t i t u t t o n f o r V o t i n g o r a a t l n a en B e h a l f
o f t h o T r u s t o e s a s t h e owners o f any s u o h p r o p e r t y and
(iv) To p a r t i c i p a t e i n and c o n s e n t t o a n y corporate
r o o r g n n i s a t i o n c o n s o l i d a t i o n mergerliquidation
* . •
d i s s o l u t i o n s a l e or l e a s e or i n a n d ' t o * a n y o t h e r change i n
any c o r p o r a t i o n or i n i t s f i n a n c i a l structure affecting
nny s e c u r i t i e s o r o t h e r p r o p o r t y h o l d h e r e u n d e r and
v
(v) To become a p a r t y t o any v o t i n g t r < u s t . o r d e p o s i t any
° s e c u r i t i e s o r p r o p e r t y h e l d h e r e u n d e r w i t h any p r o t e c t i v e
r e o r g a n i s a t i o n or s i m i l a r committee o r i n any v o t i n g
trust o r w i t h any d e p o s i t a r y d e s i g n a t e d t h e r e b y and
(vi) To e x e r c i s e o r c o n c u r i n e x e r c i s i n g t h e v o t i n g and
o t h e r r i g h t s a t t a c h i n g t o any s e c u r i t i e s f o r the time being
f o r m i n g p a r t o f t h e T r u s t Fund s o a s t o become a D i r e c t o r
or other officer o r employee of a n y company and t o b e
i n t i t l n d t o v o t e f o r and t o b o p a i d a n d t o r e t a i n f o r
t h e T r u s t e e s * u s e and o e n e f i t reasonable remuneration for-
tho Trustees* services
( v i l ) To h o l d o r d e p o s i t any s e c u r i t i e s o r o t h e r property
i n b e a r e r form o r i n t h e name of t h e T r u s t e e s o r i n the
name o f a n y one of them b e i n g a T r u s t C o r p o r a t i o n o r
•
i n t h o name o f some o t h e r p e r s o n s o r p a r t n e r s h i p o r i n
t
t h e name of a d u l y a p p o i n t e d n o m i n e e w i t h o u t d i s c l o s i n g
the fiduciary relationship and
( v i i i ) To o m i t t o r e g i s t e r uonds o r s e c u r i t i e s and
(ix) To k e e p t h e whole o r any p a i r t ^ o f t h e documents
r e l a t i n g t o and t h e money i n v e s t m e n t s a n d p r o p e r t y comprised
i n t h e s a i d T r u s t Fund w i t h i h o r w i t h o u t t h e s a i d Cayman
Islands
(c) To i n v e s t r e - i n v e s t and manage t h e T r u s t Fund either
s e p a r a t e l y o r t o g o t h e r w i t h o t h e r f u n d s t o a c q u i r e and r e t a i n tho shares
o r s e c u r i t i e s of i n v e s t m e n t c o m p a n i e s o r i n v e s t m e n t t r u s t s w h e t h e r of
t h e o p e n o r c l o s e d t y p e and w i t h o u t n o t i c e t o a n y o n e t o p a r t i c i p a t e ii\
any common t r u s t fund m a i n t a i n e d oy a n y c o r p o r a t e t r u s t e e a t any t i m e
serving hereunder
(d) To e n g a g e t h e s e r v i c e s of an i n v e s t m o n t advisor or
u
advisors at tho expense of the Trust Fund and w i t h o u t liability to
follow the recommendations of such advisor or a d v i s o r s e v e n -(hough
such recommendations may De h i g h l y s p e c u l a t i v e or not of a type — .
(c). v To o o r r o w o r l e n d money o n s u c h t e r m s - a n d from £
or t o s u c h p e r s o n s i n c l u d i n g t h e B e n e f i c i a r i e s a s t h e T r u s t e e s may *
d e t e r m i n e t o s e r e a s o n a b l e and p r o p e r and w i t h o u t l i m i t i n g the
g e n e r a l i t y of t h o f o r e g o i n g t o margin or h y p o t h e c a t e a l l o r any
protion_of the Trust Pund.
(f) To make e x e c u t e and d e l i v e r d e e d s conveyances

a s s i g n m e n t s t r a n s g e r s o p t i o n s l e a s e s m o r t g a g e s i n s t r u m e n t s of pledge
instruments creating l i e n s c o n t r a c t s and o t h e r i n s t r u m e n t s sealed
o r u n s e a l e d t o r a s o o r e r e c t any b u i l d i n g o r o t ^ i e r s t r u c t u r e s and t o
make a n y k i n d of i m p r o v e m e n t s w h i c h t h e Trustees* 1 deem p r o p e r
(g) V i t h o u t p r e j u d i c e t o t h e j u r i s d i c t i o n of t h e Court and

a c c o r d i n g t o - t h e r e s p e c t i v e r i g h t s and i n t e r e s t s o f t h e persons
i n t e r e s t e d t o t r e a t a s income o r c a p i t a l o r t o a p p o n t i o n between
income and c a p i t a l a n y d i v i d e n d s s t o c k d i v i d e n d s r i g h t s interest
rent i s s u e s and p r o f i t s d e r i v e d from a n y p r o p e r t y a t a n y t i m e c o m p r i s e d
i n t h o T r u s t Pund and g e n e r a l l y t o d e t e r m i n e what p a r t o f t h e receipts
o f t h e T r u s t i s ; income and what i s c a p i t a l and w h e t h e r o r n o t such
p r o p e r t y i s w a s t i n g o r u n p r o d u c t i v e o r was p u r c h a s e d a t a premium
o r d i s c o n n t and n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g t h o t i m o when s u c h d i v i d e n d s stock
d i v i d e n d s r i g h t s i n t e r e s t r e n t s i s s u e s or p r o f i t s were earned accrued
d e c l a r e d o r p a i d t o mako s u c h r e s e r v e s o u t o f i n c o m e o r c a p i t a l as
t h o T r u s t e e s deem p r o p e r f o r e x p o n s e s t a x e s and o t h e r l i a b i l i t i e s of
t h e T r u s t t o p a y from i n c o m e Or from c a p i t a l o r t o a p p o r t i o n between
i n c o m e a n d c a p i t a l a n y e x p e n s e s o f making«o& c h a n g i n g i n v e s t m e n t s and
i
of s o i l i n g e x c h a n g i n g o r l e a s i n g i n c l u d i n f f - t M - o k e r s ' c o m m i s s i o n s and
c h a r g e s a n d g e n e r a l l y t o d e t e r m i n e what p a r t of t h e e x p e n s e s of the
T r u s t s h a l l b e c h a r g e d t o c a p i t a l and what p a r t t o i n c o m e and t o
d e t e r m i n e a s o e t w e e n s e p a r a t e f u n d s and s e p a r a t e p a r t s o r s h a r e s the
a l l o c a t i o n of income*gains p r o f i t s l o s s e s and distributions
(h) To c a r r y on p a r t i c i p a t e o r i n v e s t i n a n y c o r p o r a t i o n
p a r t n e r s h i p j o i n t v e n t u r e o r c o - o p e r a t i v e and t o e n t e r i n t o such
l e a s e s c o n t r a c t s o r o t h e r u n d e r t a k i n g s r e l a t i n g t o t h e T r u s t Pund
o r any p a r t o f i t a s t h e T r u s t e e s s h a l l i n t h e i r uncontrolled
d i s c r e t i o n deem a d v a n t a g e o u s n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g t i a t s u c h l e a s e s contracts
o r u n d e r t a k i n g s e x t e n d or may e x t e n d beyond t h e t e r m i n a t i o n of this
Trust
(i) To i n s t i t u t e p r o s o c u t o nnd d e f e n d any s u i t s or
a c t i o n s or other proceedings affecting the T r u s t e e s or the Trust-
Fund o r a n y p a r t t h e r e o f t o compromise any m a t t e r s of d i f f e r e n c e or
compound any debit* owing t o limn AM T n i n t c n s o r any o t h e r c l a i m s and
t o a d j u s t a n y d i s p u t e s i n r e l a t i o n t o d e b t s o r c l a i m s a g a i n s t them a s
T r u s t e o s u p o n e v i d e n c e t h a t t o t h e T r u s t e e s s h a l l seem s u f f i c i e n t and
i n whole or in p a r t a t p u b l i c a u c t i o n or p r i v a t e s a l e or otherwise
and u p o n s u c h t e r m s a n d f o r s u c h t e r m s a s t h e T r u s t e e s deem
a d v i s a b l e t o make p a r t i t i o n w i t h t h e c o - o w n e r s o r j o i n t o w n e r s besides
t h e T r u s t h a v i n g any i n t e r e s t i n any p r o p e r t i e s i n which t h e Trustees
are i n t e r e s t e d and t o make s u c h p a r t i t i o n e i t h e r by s a l e o r b y s e t - o f f
o r by a g r e e m e n t o r o t h e r w i s e ( i n c l u d i n g whore deemed desirable
p r o v i s i o n f o r e q u a l i t y of exchange)
(j) To t a k e t h o o p i n i o n o r a d v i c e of c o u n s e l concerning
any d i f f e r o n c e a r i s i n g u n d e r t h i s S e t t l e m e n t o r any m a t t e r i n any way
relating t o t h e T r u s t Fund o r t o t h e T r u s t e e s ' duties in connection
w i t h t h e T r u s t Fund and i n a l l s u c h m a t t e r s t o a c t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h
t h e o p i n i o n of such c o u n s e l
(k) To employ and p a y a t t h e e x p e n s e of t h e T r u s t Fund a n y

a g e n t i n a n y p a r t of t h e w o r l d w h o t h e r an a t t o r n e y s o l i c i t o r banker
a c c o u n t a n t s t o c k b r o k e r o r o t h e r a g e n t and w h e t h e r o r n o t b e i n g one
of t h e T r u s t e e s h e r e u n d e r t o t r a n s a c t a n y b u s i n e s s o r do a n y act'
required t o b e t r a n s a c t e d o r done i n t h e e x e c u t i o n of t h e trusts
hereof including the receipt o r payment of money a n d t h e execution
o f d o c u m e n t s and no f i r m a s s o c i a t i o n o r c o r p o r a t i o n any of whose
s e c u r i t i e s a e i n c l u d e d w i t h i n t h e T r u s t « £ u n d and no p u r c h a s e r o r other
person d e a l i n g with.any agent purporting t o act under d e l e g a t i o n of
a u t h o r i t y from t h e T r u s t e e s s h a l l b e r e q u i r e d t o a s c e r t a i n o r inquire
w h e t h e r a c a s e e x i s t s i n which such d e l e g a t i o n i s p e r m i t t e d or w h e t h e r
such d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i t y i s s t i l l s u b s i s t i n g PROVIDED however t h a t the
T r u s t e e s s h a l l not be r e s p o n s i b l e for t h e d e f a u l t negligence or fraud
of a n y a g e n t , s o employed o r f o r any l o s s o c c a s i o n e d t h e r e b y a l t h o u g h .
t h e employment of s u c h a g e n t was n o t s t r i c t l y n e c e s s a r y o r expedient
(l) Upon ahd f o r t h e p u r p o s e of any d i s t r i b u t i o n or

appropriation of t h o T r u s t Fund o r any p a r t t h e r o f in their
unfettered d i s c r e t i o n t o p l a c e s u c h v a l u e on any and a l l a s s e t s from
t i m e t o t i m e f o r m i n g p a r t of t h e T r u s t Fund a s t o .them i n t h e i r .
a b s o l u t e and u n c o n t r o l l e d d i s c r e t i o n s h a l l seem j u s t a n d p r o p e r
and a n y s u c h v a l u a t i o n mado i n good f a i t h s h a l l be absolutely
final and b i n d i r p n n d c o n o l u n l v ? on n i l nnnoficiariea hereunder
and f u r t h e r u p o n a n y s u c h d i s c r e t i o n o r a p p r o p r i a t i o n t o d e t e r m i n e to
whom s p e c i f i e d a s s e t s s h a l l b e g i v e n and t o d i s t r i b u t e t h e same
. s u b j e c t t o t h e p a y m e n t of s u c h a m o u n t s a s mny b e n e c e s s a r y t o adjust'
t h e s h a r e s of t h e v a r i o u s B e n e f i c i a r i e s and f u r t h e r that any
distributions of t h e T r u s t Fund may b e e i t h e r made d i r e c t l y t o a n y
Beneficiary o r a p p l i e d for h i s b e n o f i t by t h e T r u s t e e s o r d u r i n g his
1
m i n o r i t y mado t o h i s d u l y a p p o i n t e d g u a r d i a n o r t o ' a n y p e r s o n with
whom h e l i v e s o r r e s i d e s f o r t h e u s e of s a i d B e n e f i c i a r y without
r e s p o n s i b i l i t y for i t s expenditure
^WITHOUT p r e j u d i c e t o t h e g e n e r a l i t y o f C l a u s e 5 h e r e o f if
t h e T r u s t Fund s h a l l i n c l u d e any s h a r e s ' o r o t h e r i n t e r e s t s i n a company
th<» o w n e r s h i p o f w h i c h g i v e s t o thorn t h o r i g h t i n any circumstances
to control the affairs of t h e Company o r of any o f i t s subsidiaries-
t h e T r u s t e e s s h a l l b e u n d e r no l i a b i l i t y o r d u t y t o a p p o i n t any
r e p r e s e n t a t i v e t o t h e Board o f t h e s a i d Company o r o f a n y o f its
s u b s i d i a r i e s and f u r t h e r s h a l l have no r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o e n q u i r e into
o v e r s e e o r t a k e p a r t i n t h e management o r a f f a i r s o r b u s i n e s s of the
Company o r a n y o f i t ' s subsidiaries
i
7 IN a d d i t i o n t o r e i n b u r s e m e n t of t h e i r p r o p e r expenses<the
T r u s t e e s s h a l l be e n t i t l e d t o remuneration ( f r e e of a n y p r o b a t e
s u c c e s s i o n e s t a t e o r o t h e r d e a t h d u t i e s w h e r e s o e v e r p a y a b l e and a s
a first c h a r g e on t h e T r u s t Fund) f o r t h e i r s e r v i c e s a s T r u s t e e s in
a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e i r p u b l i s h e d s c a l e of*f%es i n f o r c e from t i m e to
t i m e PROVIDED h o w e v e r t h a t t h e T r u s t e o s may t r a n s a c t on b e h a l f of or
w i t h t h e T r u s t o r any B e n e f i c i a r y h e r e u n d e r any b u s i n e s s w h i c h b y their
c o n s t i t u t i o n t h e y a r e a u t h o r i s e d t o u n d e r t a k e u p o n t h e same t e r m s as
would f o r t h e t i m e b e i n g b e made w i t h an o r d i n a r y c u s t o m e r and w i t h o u t
accounting for aty p r o f i t t h e r e b y made and i n p a r t i c u l a r and w i t h o u t
p r e j u d i c e t o t h e g e n e r a l i t y of t h e f o r e g o i n g t h e T r u s t e e s may r e t a i n
on c u r r e n t a c c o u n t o r d e p o s i t a c c o u n t o r a d v a n c e a t i n t e r e s t all
moneys n e c e s s a r y o r c o n v e n i e n t t o b e r e t a i n e d o r a d v a n c e d in
c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h e T r u s t and may r e t a i n f o r t h e m s e l v e s any commission
o r r e m u n e r a t i o n p a i d o r a l l o w e d by s t o c k b r o k e r s i n s u r a n c e companies
o r o t h e r a g e n t s w i t h o u t b e i n g l i a b l e t o an a c c o u n t f o r any p r o f i t
t h e r e b y made PROVIDED f u r t h e r t h a t t h e T r u s t e e s may t r a n s a c t business
on b e h a l f of t h e T r u s t or any b e n e f i c i a r y h o r e u n d o r w i t h any c o r p o r a t i o n
o r p a r t n e r s h i p i n which t h e T r u s t e e s a r e o f f i c e h o l d e r s or shareholders
or p a r t n e r s o r a r e o t h e r w i s e f i n a n c i a l l y i n t e r e s t e d o r w i t h any p e r s o n
or f i r m h o l d i n g s h a r e s o r b e i n g o t h e r w i s e f i n a n c i a l l y interested in
t h e T r u s t e e s w i t h o u t being l i a b l e t o account for any p r o f i t accruing to
t h e T r u s t e e s a s such office holders s h a r e h o l d e r s or p a r t n e r s as a r e s u l t
of s u c h b u s i n e s s and t h e T r u s t e e s may h o l d offic-e i n any c o r p o r a t i o n
s h a r e s o r s e c u r i t i e s i n which c o m p r i s e o r form p a r t of t h e T r u s t fund
and s h a l l n o t b e l i a b l e t o a c c o u n t t o t h e T r u s t f o r emoluments received
by them a a s u c h o f f i c e holders. *
§_ i s l - I U ? Trustees hereof (whether o r i g i n a l o r s u b s t i t u t e d ) may

a t any t i m e o r t i m e b o removed from t h o i r o f f i c e of T r u s t e e s by n
Coed e x e c u t e d oy t h e S e t t l o r (hereinafter c a l l e d "the Appointor") and
d e l i v e r e d t o t h e T r u s t e e s and t h o A p p o i n t o r may by d e e d e x e c u t e d and
delivnred as aforesaid a p p o i n t any o t h o r p e r s o n o r p e r s o n s w h e t h e r o r n o t
resident i n t h e Cayman I s l a n d s t o b e T r u s t e e s e i t h e r J o i n t l y w i t h any
other than continuing Trustees or solely if after removal t h e r e shall
n o t b e any c o n t i n u i n g T r u s t e e s and t h e r e u p o n t h e T r u s t Pund s h a l l b e
by a n a s s u r a n c e a s may b e n e c e s s a r y o r e x p e d i e n t v e s t e d j o i n t l y i n t h e
p e r s o n s who s h a l l t h e r e u p o n become t h e T r u s t e e s o f t h e T r u s t s h e r e b y
c r e a t e d PROVIDED h o w e v e r , t h a t en o u t g o i n g t r u s t e e who i s l i a b l e a s a
t r u s t e e h e r e o f o r may on t h e ^ £ a t h of any p e r s o n become l i a b l e a s a f o r m e r

t r u s t e e t h e r e o f for any income p r o b a t e e s t a t e o r o t h e r d u t i e s f e e s or
t a x e s s h a l l n o t be bound t o t r a n s f e r t h o T r u s t Fund a s a f o r e s a i d - u n l e s s
r e a s o n a b l e s e c u r i t y i s provided for indemnifying such outgoing trustee
a g a i n s t s u c h l i a b i l i t y PHOVIDKD ALSO t h a t no r e m o v a l of t r u s t e e s by
t h e Appointor s h a l l be effective u n l e s s after- such removal (either
w i t h o r w i t h o u t a new a p p o i n t m e n t ) t h e r e s h a l l r e m a i n a t l e a s t one
t r u s t e e b e i n g a t r u s t c o r p o r a t i o n or two t r u s t e e s b e i n g individuals
(b) W i t h o u t p r e j u d i c e t o t h e powers c o n t a i n e d i n sub-clause

( a ) of t h e C l a u s e i f a T r u s t e e h e r e o f w h e t h e r o r i g i n a l o r substituted
shall d i e o r b e i n g a c o r p o r a t i o n be d i s s o l v e d o r s h a l l d e s i r e t o b e
discharged from a l l o r any of t h e t r u s t s o r p o w e r s h e r e o f o r shall
rofuse o r become u n f i t t o a c t t h e r e i n o r become i n c a p a b l e of acting
t h e r e i n then t h e following persons namoly:-
(i) The S e t t l o r o r i f he s h a l l b e dead or u n a b l e o r
unwilling to act
(ii) Tho s u r v i v i n g or c o n t i n u i n g T r u s t e e s h e r e o f f o r the
t i m e b e i n g or i f t h e r e be no s u r v i v i n g o r " c o n t i n u i n g T r u s f e e s "
(iii) The p e r s o n a l r e p r o s o n t a t i v e a of t h e I n s t surviving
l a s t T r u s t e e was a c o r p o r a t i o n then such l a s t - t r u s t e e
upon rotlromont may by dood appoint ono o r moro o t h o r
persons or corporation ( w h e t h e r o r n o t Doing o r including
t h e p e r s o n s o x e r c i s i n g t h e p o w e r ) t o oe a T r u s t e e o r
T r u s t e e s i n t h e p l a c e of t h e T r u s t e e s o d e c e a s e d dissolved
d e s i r i n g t o be discharged r e f u s i n g or.being unfit or being
incapaule as aforesaid.
i
(c) The p o w e r s i n s u o - c l a u s e ( a ) OF THIS C l a u s e contained
may a t a n y t i m e o e i r r e v o c a b l y r e l e a s e d by a d e e d e x e c u t e d b y t h e
A p p o i n t o r and d e l i v e r e d t o t h e T r u s t e e s and t h e A p p o i n t o r may i n like
manner r e v o c a o l y o r i r r e v o c a u l y g r a n t t h e s a i d p o w e r s t o a n y p e r s o n
or persons to take effect immediately o r a f t e r t h e death of the
A p p o i n t o r a s . t h e c a s e may b e .
(d) The T r u s t e e s h e r e o f o r any o f them ( w h e t h e r o r i g i n a l or

s u o s t i t u t o d ) may i f t h e y s o d e s i r o r e s i g n an T r u s t e e s H e r e u n d e r after
3 0 d a y s w r i t t e n n o t i c e of t h e i r i n t e n t i o n s o t o do s e n t Dy r e g i s t e r e d
p r e p a i d p o s t t o t h e A p p o i n t o r o r s u c h p e r s o n a s t h e A p p o i n t o r may from
t i m e t o t i m e a p p o i n t i n w r i t i n g s u c h r e s i g n a t i o n s h a l l oecome e f f e c t i v e
upon t h e d a y s p e c i f i e d i n s u c h n o t i c e of. r e s i g n a t i o n
1
(e) I n t h o e v e n t of t h e r e s i g n a t i o n of t h e T r u s t e e s hereof
o r i n c a s e t h e r e s h a l l be no t r u s t e e h e r e u n d e r G u i n n e s s Mahon Bahamas
T r u s t Company L i m i t e d o r i t s s u c c e s s o r s s h a l l become substituted
Trustees hereunder
(f) Upon t h e r e s i g n a t i o n o r r e m o v a l of t h e T r u s t e e s as
hereinbefore p r o v i d e d t h e T r u s t e e s s h a l l be e n t i t l e d t o receive
r e i m b u r s e m e n t o u t of t h e T r u s t Pund f o r a l l e x p e n s e s i n c u r r e d by them
i n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h e S e t t l e m e n t of t h e a c c o u n t of t h e Trustees
(g) On e v e r y c h a n g e i n t h e t r u s t e e s h i p a memorandum shall

be e n d o r s e d on o r p e r m a n e n t l y a f f i x e d to t h i s Settlement s t a t i n g the
names of t h e T r u s t e e s for t h e t i m e Deing and s h a l l oe s i g n e d uy t h e
p e r s o n s s o named and a u t h e n t i c a t e d by a n o t a r y o r n o t a r i e s p u o l i c and
any p e r s o n d e a l i n g w i t h t h e T r u s t s h a l l oe e n t i t l e d t o r e l y upon any '
s u c h memorandum ( o r t h e l a t e s t of s u c h memoranda i f more t h a n o n e ) as
sufficient e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e p e r s o n s named t h e r e i n a r e t h e f u l l y
c o n s t i t u t e d T r u s t e e s f o r t h e t i m e Deing of t h i s ' . S e t t l e m e n t • ......
Al,
y s u b s t i t u t e d T r u s t e e s of t h i s S e t t l e m e n t shall
have a l l t h e powers conferred upon t h o T r u s t e e s by law and t h e s e
p r e s e n t s a n d any and a l l bank* orolteri* iteminooa o r o t h e r depositories
c u s t o d i a n s o f t h e T r u s t Fund s h a l l b e a u t h o r i s e d t o accept
instructions from t h e s a i d s u b s t i t u t e d T r u s t e e s a s t o the
dispositions thereof
9. T1IB T r u s t e e s s h a l l p r o v i d e f o r t h e s a f e k e e p i n g of a l l documents
o f t i t l e a n d s e c u r i t i e s t h e s u b j e c t o f thiB S e t t l e m e n t and may a t the
e x p o n s e o f t h e T r u s t Fund (which e x p e n s e may i n c l u d e a n y c h a r g e s f o r
t h e s a f e c u s t o d y o f s e c u r i t i e s and t h e c o l l e c t i o n a n d r e m i t t a n c e
o f i n c o m e ) d e p o s i t t h e same i n t h e c u s t o d y o f a n y b a n k b a n k i n g company
c o r p o r a t e t r u s t e e or stockbroker i n any p a r t o f t h o w o r l d t h a t under-
t a k e s t h e s a f e c u s t o d y of s e c u r i t i e s a s p a r t o f i t s b u s i n e s s b u t so
that t h e T r u s t e e s a h a l l h o t bo i n any w i s e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e m i s -
a p p l i c a t i o n of t h e same o r any o f them by s u c h b a n k b a n k i n g company
c o r p o r a t e t r u s t e e o r s t o c k b r o k e r o r f o r any l o s s w h i c h may b e
occasioned thereby
10. IN t h e e v e n t of any income p r o u a t o e s t a t e o r o t h e r duties

f e e s o r t a x e s b e c o m i n g p a y a b l e i n t h e Cayman I s l a n d s o r e l s e w h e r e in
respect o f t h e T r u s t Fund o r any p a r t t h e r e o f on t h e d e a t h o f the
i
S e t t l o r o r of a n y B e n e f i c i a r y o r o t h e r w i s e t h e T r u s t e e s may a t their
d i s c r e t i o n pay a l l o r a n y p a r t of s u c h d u t i e s f e e s and t a x e s o u t of
t h e T r u s t Fund w i t h o u t r e c o u r s o a g a i n s t any B e n e f i c i a r y or r e f u s e t o p a y
the
same o r any p a r t t h e r e o f u n l e s s i n d e m n i f i e d and t o d e t e r m i n e the
t i m e a n d m a n n e r o f s u c h payment i f any ,
__N0 bond s h a l l b e r e q u i r e d of t h e T r u s t e e s h e r e i n named
(whether o r i g i n a l or s u b s t i t u t e d ) o r i f a bond s h o u l d b e r e q u i r e d by
law t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t a w a i v e r by t h e S e t t l o r i s e f f e c t i v e no s u r e t y
s h a l l b e r e q u i r e d on s u c h a oond
12. THIS T r u s t s h a l l bo i r r e v o c a b l e and t h e S e t t l o r expressly

waives a l l r i g h t and power w h e t h e r a l o n e o r i n c o n j u n c t i o n w i t h any
o t h e r p e r s o n t o a l t e r amend o r r e v o k e t h i s S e t t l e m e n t i n w h o l e o r in
part o r a s t o a n y of i t s terms
11.__ T r u s t e e s s h a l l not be p e r s o n a l l y l i a b l e on c o n t r a c t made
by them i n t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i o n of t h o T r u s t and p e r s o n s e n t e r i n g into
contract with the Trustees shall look s o l e l y t o t h e T r u s t Fund
iA. WITHOUT p r e j u d i c e t o t h e r i g h t u n d e r t h e g e n e r a l l a v of the

T r u s t e e s t o r e f u s e d i s c l o s u r e of any d o c u m e n t . i t i s hereby declared
that the Trustees shall n o t bo bound t o d i s c l o s e t o a n y p e r s o n a n y
of t h e f o l l o w i n g documents t h a t i s t o say:-
(1) Any document d i s c l o s i n g any d e l i b e r a t i o n s o f the

T r u s t e e s ( o r a n y of t h e T r u s t e e s ) a s t o t h e manner i n w h i c h t h e .
T r u s t e e s s h o u l d e x e r c i s e any power o r any d i s c r e t i o n c o n f e r r e d upon
t h o T r u s t e e s by t h i s S e t t l e m e n t o r d i s c l o s i n g t h o r e a s o n s f o r any
p a r t i c u l a r e x e r c i s e of any s u c h power o r any s u c h d i s c r e t i o n o r the
m a t e r i a l upon which such r e a s o n s s h a l l o r might have been based
(2) . A n y o t h e r document r e l a t i n g t o t h e e x e r a i s e o r proposed

e x e r c i s e of any power o r any d i s c r e t i o n c o n f e r r e d on t h e T r u s t e e s oy
this Settlement ( n o t b e i n g l e g a l a d v i c e o b t a i n e d by t h e T r u s t e e s at
t h e c o s t of t h e t r u s t estate)
T H A T T H E
TRUSTEES MAT PERMIT ANT
B e n e f i c i a r y p e r s o n a l l y t o i n s p e c t any c o p y of t h i s , S e t t l e m e n t o r a n y
documents r e l a t i n g t o t h e Trust a t the p r i n c i p a l office of any
c o r p o r a t e t r u s t o e h e r e o f o u t s h a l l n o t be bound t o g i v e a n y f u r t h e r
information t o any B e n e f i c i a r y r e l a t i n g t o t h e a f f a i r s of t h e T r u s t
o r t o permit any Beneficiary t o make any*-ttopies of a n y d o c u m e n t s
r e l a t i n g to the Trust »
15. THIS s o t t l e m e n t i s made u n d e r t h e l a w s of t h e Cayman Islands

a n d t h e r i g h t s o f a l l p a r t i e s and t h e c o n s t r u c t i o n and e f f e c t o f e a c h and
every p r o v i s i o n hereof s h a l l oe s u b j e c t t o t h e e x c l u s i v e jurisdiction
o f and c o n s t r u e d o n l y a c c o r d i n g t o t h e l a w s of t h e Cayman I s l a n d s which
s h a l l b e t h e forum f o r t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i o n of t h i s Trust
PROVIDED h o w e v e r t h a t t h e T r u s t e e s may from t i m e t o t i m e d u r i n g t h e .
A c c u m u l a t i o n P e r i o d by d e e d d e c l a r e t h a t t h i s T r u s t and t h e rights
of a l l p a r t i e s a n d t h e c o n s t r u c t i o n and e f f e c t of t h e p r o v i s i o n s hereof
shall from t h e d a t e of s u c h d e c l a r a t i o n b e s u b j e c t t o t h e exclusive
jurisdiction of and c o n s t r u e d o n l y a c c o r d i n g t o t h e l a w s of some o t h e r
jurisdiction ( o t h e r t h a n t h e Cayman I s l a n d s ) i n w h i c h o n e o r more....
of t h e T r u s t e e s t h e n s e r v i n g i n o f f i c e i n r e s i d e n t and t h a t the
forum f o r t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i o n of t h i s T r u s t s h a l l t h e n c e f o r t h be such
other j u r i s d i c t i o n PROVIDED f u r t h e r t h a t t h e T r u s t e e s may n o t declare
t h a t " t h i s T r u s t a n d t h e r i g h t of a l l p a r t i e s a n d t h e construction
and e f f e c t of t h e p r o v i s i o n s hereof s h a l l be s u b j e c t t o t h e jurisdiction
o f and c o n s t r u e d a c c o r d i n g t o t h e l a w s o f a j u r i s d i c t i o n w h i c h would •
c a u s e a m a t e r i a l change i n t h e r i g h t s of t h e B e n e f i c i a r i e s hereunder
o r w h i c h w o u l d n o t r e g o g n i s e t h e v a l i d i t y of t h i s T r u s t i f such
n o n - r e c o g n i t i o n w o u l d r e s u l t i n t h e r e v o c a t i o n o r t e r m i n a t i o n of the
Trust
1. ANY p e r s o n o f f u l l a g e t o whom o r f o r whose b e n e f i t any c a p i t a l

o r income may b e l i a b l e t o b e a p p o i n t e d t r a n s f e r r e d p a i d o r a p p l i e d by
o r i n c o n s e q u e n c e o f a n e x e r c i s e o f any p o w e r o r d i s c r e t i o n vested
i n t h e T r u s t e e s o r i n a n y o t h e r p e r s o n may b y d e e d r e v o c a b l y o r
I r r e v o c a b l y d i s c l a i m h i s i n t e r e s t a s a n o b j e c t of s u c h power o r discretion
e i t h e r w h o l l y o r w i t h r e s p e c t t o any s p e c i f i e d p a r t o r s h a r e of such
c a p i t a l o r i n c o m e a n d t h e n s u c h power o r d i s c r e t i o n s h a l l (despite
a n y t h i n g c o n t a i n e d e l s e w h e r e i n t h i s Deed p r o t a n t o c e a s e t o b e
exercisable
IN WITNESS w h e r e o f t h e s a i d J o h n Henry G u i n n e s s h a s s e t h i s h a n d a n d '

s e a l a n d t h e Common S e a l o f G u i n n e s s Mahon Cayman TxMst L i m i t e d
has been h e r e u n t o affixed t h e day and y e a r f i r s t above w r i t t e n .
. One h u n d r e d pounda sterling(£100.00)

THF. SECOND SCHEDULE
•••••••BBBiaNBIIIIR
The S e t t l o r
nsure
1. The B a i l e i owt I r e l a n d and h i s wife o r widow
a n d I s s u e ( o f w h a t e v e r d e g r e e ) h i s p a r e n t s and t h e p a r e n t s o f
h i s w i f e h i s b r o t h e r s a n d s i s t e r s and t h e i r i s s u e ( o f W h a t e v e r
d e g r e e ) a n d t h e b r o t h e r s and s i s t e r s of h i s w i f e a n d t h e i r issue
(of whatever degree) i
JOCAL INVESTMENTS LIMITED of George T f Grqnd Cayman

2.
SIGNED SEALED AND DELIVERED )

b y t h e above-named )
in the presence o f t - )
X THE COMMONWEAL OF GUINNESS MAHON

CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED HAS BEEN
HEREUNTO AFFIXED IN THE PRESENCE
OFs-
Appendix XV (52) Mr John Guinness, deceased
John Guinness.
a) Transcript of evidence of Mrs Jennifer Guinness dated 18 April 2000.
b) Statement of Mrs Jennifer Guinness dated 18 April 2000.
c) Trust Deed of 28 January 1972.

PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF
MRS. JENNIFER GUINNESS
UNDER OATH
ON TUESDAY, 18TH APRIL 2000
Stenographer
PRESENT
THE INSPECTORS: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO
MS. MACKEY B.L.
SOLICITOR TO THE INSPECTORS: MS. M. CUMMINS
INTERVIEWEE: MRS. JENNIFER GUINNESS
INSTRUCTED BY: MR. MICHAEL O'SHEA
KENNEDY McGONAGLE BALLAGH
2 0 NORTHUMBERLAND ROAD
DUBLIN 4
1 THE INTERVIEW COMMENCED, AS FOLLOWS, ON TUESDAY,
2 18TH APRIL 2000
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mrs. Guinness, we will
5 start our interview. I am
7 you know, we have been appointed two of the
8 Inspectors by the High Court. I explain to people
9 who we wish to interview such as you, Mrs. Guinness,
10 that we are not a court, we are not a tribunal but
11 this is merely just an interview. It will be under
12 oath and I will ask our solicitor, Ms. Cummins, to
13 administer the oath in a moment to you. There is
14 one preliminary point I should make, if at any time
15 you wish to consult your solicitor about a question
16 that we ask, please tell us you wish to do so and we
17 will stop asking you questions and you can consult
18 your solicitor. Similarly, your solicitor can
19 inform us if there is any question that we are
20 asking you on which he thinks he should give you
21 legal advice, and he can tell us and we will stop.
22
23 I will ask Ms. Cummins to administer the oath now.
24
25
26
27
28
29
3
1 MRS. JENNIFER GUINNESS HAVING BEEN SWORN WAS
2 INTERVIEWED, AS FOLLOWS, BY THE INSPECTORS
4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mrs. Guinness, I will ask
5 Ms. Mackey to ask you some
6 questions.
7 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Good morning,
8 Mrs. Guinness. I am going
9 to ask you questions by reference to the statement
10 that you supplied us with and I know all this
11 happened quite a while ago and many of the events
12 may not be clear in your mind. If at any time you
13 simply do not remember something, it will be quite
14 sufficient to say that you do not remember it. Do
15 you have a copy of the statement that you can refer
16 to? (Exhibit 1)
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 2 Q. First of all, your late husband was, I think,
19 Chairman of Guinness & Mahon; is that correct?
20 A. That's right.
21 3 Q. You say here in your statement that after his death
22 in 1988 Mr. Traynor who was a personal friend of
23 yours asked you to call to his office and explained
24 to you the matters that you set out then. Was
25 Mr. Traynor a personal friend of you and your
26 husband for a long time going back a long way?
27 A. Yes.
28 4 Q. Could you tell me a little bit about when you got to
29 know him?
4
1 A. Really ever since I knew John. I don't remember, it
2 would have been in 1961 or 1962 when we came back to
3 live in Dublin.
4 5 Q. He was a friend of your husband's?
5 A. Yes .
6 6 Q. Before you knew him?
7 A. Yes .
8 7 Q. Then of course they were both in Guinness Mahon?
9 A. That's right.
10 8 Q. Apart from a business association, you and your
11 husband always had a personal friendship with
12 Mr. Traynor, would that be right?
13 A. It was very closely business personal linked. I
14 don't suppose you can really divide the two, they
15 worked together and they were business partners as
16 well as friends.
17 9 Q. But you met socially as well?
18 A. Yes .
19 10 Q. You go on to say that when Mr. Traynor asked you to
20 call in to see him, he told you, in general terms
21 anyway, that your husband had established a Trust
22 for your benefit and that of your children. During
23 your husband's lifetime had you heard of this Trust?
24 A. Not really. You see there was Guinness Mahon
25 Cayman.
26 11 Q. You knew of Guinness Mahon Cayman?
27 A. I knew that something existed there because he and
28 Des Traynor went there.
29 12 Q. They went out to Cayman?

1 A. Yes .
2 13 Q. Your husband went out?
3 A. Yes .
4 14 Q. You were aware that there was an entity called
6 A. Yes .
7 15 Q. Did you know that was a subsidiary of Guinness
8 Mahon?
9 A. I don't know, I didn't get involved in the details
10 at all, I am afraid. I just was aware that they had
11 an interest in Cayman.
12 16 Q. What did you know then about a Trust that might have
13 been set up for your benefit and your children
14 during your husband's lifetime?
15 A. Absolutely nothing.
16 17 Q. You did not know anything about it at all?
17 A. No.
18 18 Q. This was the first you heard of this Trust?
19 A. Yes, you have to understand that my husband was a
20 banker, a merchant banker in the old fashioned sense
21 of the word and confidentiality meant
22 confidentiality. He never really discussed business
23 affairs with me. I used to get a bit cross with him
24 at times but he wouldn't discuss any business
25 matters with us at all.
26 19 Q. After your husband's death anyway Mr. Traynor told
27 you that your husband had in fact established this
28 Trust?
29 A. Yes .
1 20 Q. Can you recollect what he told you about that Trust?
2 A. Not really.
3 21 Q. Did he tell you it was a discretionary Trust?
4 A. He didn't go in to details.
5 22 Q. Did he explain when or how the Trust had been set
6 up?
7 A. No.
8 23 Q. He did say it was in the Cayman Islands?
9 A. Yes.
10 24 Q. Did he say Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust was the
11 Trustee?
12 A. I have no idea. I am sorry, I really just don't
13 remember.
14 25 Q. I am asking you detailed questions about it because
15 they might jog your memory. Did he mention a
16 Mr. Furze in connection with it?
17 A. I knew the name, but it was more John Collins I
18 think is a name that I remember. I am not sure if I
19 ever met Mr. Furze.
20 26 Q. You met Mr. Collins, did you?
21 A. I think so.
22 27 Q. Anyway in connection with this particular occasion
23 when Mr. Traynor told you about the Trust, you do
24 not recollect that he mentioned Mr. Furze as being
25 involved?
26 A. No.
27 28 Q. He told you apparently that you and your children
28 were beneficiaries?
29 A. Yes.
7
1 29 Q. Did he say to you that a company was holding the
2 funds of the Trust?
3 A. I don't think so, he just said there was a Trust in
4 Cayman for us.
5 30 Q. That was really all you remember. Does the name
6 National Finance Association ring any bells?
8 31 Q. You do not remember him mentioning that in
9 connection with the trust?
10 A. Mr. Traynor very seldom said very much. He would
11 have just said there was a Trust in Cayman for us
12 and that would have been the end of the matter.
13 32 Q. Would he have explained how you were going to
14 benefit from this Trust?
15 A. He sort of indicated if I needed money to spend, I
16 could ask for it.
17 33 Q. Ask him?
18 A. Yes .
19 34 Q. Did he give you the impression that that would not
20 be a problem, that at any time you required money
21 you should just ask him?
22 A. Yes, I think he probably did, but again it wasn't
23 money to be used day to day in Ireland. It was
24 money to spend on holidays, airline tickets and that
25 sort of thing. I wasn't to assume that I could just
26 draw down on a regular basis money to use in
27 Ireland.
28 35 Q. You could draw it down, that was the point?
29 A. Yes .
1 36 Q. On the occasions, because you say in your statement
2 you subsequently availed of that from time to time,
3 on the occasions in which you did, what did you do?
4 Did you ring him or write to him?
5 A. I rang him.
6 37 Q. What would you say to him?
7 A. I would say, 'Des, look I am going to Australia' or
8 I am going to wherever and he would say 'fine'.
9 38 Q. You would just tell him the amount you wanted?
10 A. Yes. It was never in cash, it would always have
11 been in travellers cheques.
12 39 Q. On occasion would it be transferred to your bank
13 account?
14 A. Not in this country.
15 40 Q. In London?
16 A. I had an account in Barclays Bank in Great
17 Missenden, I think.
18 41 Q. On occasion if you wished funds transferred to that
19 account, you told him; is that it?
20 A. I can't really remember. I remember going to CRH
21 and collecting travellers cheques but I don't
22 remember -- I was trying to remember about the
23 Barclays bank accounts that you asked about, but I
24 don't really remember.
25 42 Q. You do not remember. We have some correspondence
26 between Des Traynor and Guinness Mahon in relation
27 to those which I will show you in a moment. When
28 you wished to have travellers cheques, having
29 contacted Mr. Traynor, you would go along to his

1 office in CRH and pick them up there?
2 A. Yes.
3 43 Q. You would meet occasionally Ms. Williams?
4 A. Yes.
5 44 Q. You knew Ms. Williams?
6 A. Yes.
7 45 Q. You say in the second paragraph of your statement:
8 "After my return to Ireland I saw

Mr. Traynor from time to time and on
9 many of these occasions he showed me
statements which gave the value of the
10 Trust."
11
12 Could you tell me a little bit about these
13 statements. Did he give them to you?
14 A. No.
15 4 6 Q. He showed them to you?
16 A. Yes.
17 47 Q. At the time, going back to when he first told you
18 the Trust was being set up, did he give you
19 documents in relation to it?
20 A. No.
21 48 Q. None at all?
22 A. No.
23 49 Q. Did you ask him if he could provide you with
24 documents?
25 A. No.
26 50 Q. In relation to the statements, can you describe them
27 to me?
28 A. They were just ....(INTERJECTION).
29 51 Q. Were they on headed paper?
10
1 A. They were sort of like bank statements, I don't
2 think they had any heading.
3 52 Q. Just like bank statements?
4 A. They looked like bank statements. I didn't really
5 pay a lot of attention to them.
6 53 Q. Do you recollect if they had the name of a bank or a
7 company on top?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 54 Q. Do you recollect if they were unheaded?
10 A. They weren't on formal headed paper like that, they
11 were just a bank statement.
12 55 Q. What sort of information appeared on those?
13 A. Probably a list of stocks and shares.
14 56 Q. A list of stocks and shares. Did these appear to be
15 the statement of affairs of a company?
16 A. I have no idea. I presumed they were just the
17 things that John had had in this Trust and I was
18 supposed to just have a look at them.
19 57 Q. Would Mr. Traynor go through them with you?
20 A. Not really.
21 58 Q. He would just hand them to you?
22 A. Yes, I think probably to keep his records straight
23 or something. I get statements every so often
24 because I am supposed to look at my stocks and
25 shares, but I just look at them.
26 59 Q. Would it ultimately show the balance of the funds
27 held?
28 A. But I don't remember what it was.
29 60 Q. You do remember that there was a balance, it would
11
1 show you the state of it; would it?
2 A. I imagine so, most bank statements do, but I am
3 awfully hazy about it, it was just a piece of
4 statement.
5 61 Q. It showed transactions and almost certainly it
6 showed a balance?
7 A. I am sure it would have shown a balance but it was
8 more a list of stocks and shares and I don't think
9 it showed transactions. There was no profit and
10 loss statement or anything like that.
11 62 Q. As you say, it was like a bank statement?
12 A. Like a bank statement.
13 63 Q. Like a bank statement did it show the interest that
14 had accrued?
15 A. I don't know, I shouldn't think so, I just don't
16 know. I just remember a list of stocks and shares
17 down the left-hand side and, presumably, it had a
18 valuation.
19 64 Q. When Mr. Traynor told you this Trust had been set
20 up, did he tell you the value of the Trust? I am
21 not asking you for the value, but whether he told
22 you about it at the time?
23 A. I am sure I probably could have looked at the list
24 of stocks and shares and worked it out, but we
25 didn't mention ....(INTERJECTION).
26 65 Q. Do you recollect whether it was a substantial
27 amount ?
28 A. I don't, but I assume it probably was a reasonable
29 amount, but that is as much in hindsight.
12
1 66 Q. Moving on down through your statement, well, just
2 before we come to that, were you one of the
3 executors of your husband's estate, Mrs. Guinness?
4 A. Yes .
5 67 Q. You were?
6 A. I don't know. Could I ask?
7 68 Q. Certainly.
8 A. Yes, I think Peter and I were, my brother in-law and
9 I.
10 69 Q. Can you recollect at this stage Mrs. Guinness, and I
11 realise you might not be prepared for this question,
12 can you recollect when returning a schedule of your
13 husband's assets to the Revenue Commissioners in the
14 administration of his estate if you listed as an
15 asset the Trust funds?
16 A. I think I discovered about the Trust much later.
17 70 Q. After the estate had been administered?
18 A. I don't know, I really don't.
19 71 Q. You cannot remember the sequence?
20 A. No, I can't remember the sequence.
21 72 Q. So you cannot say whether or not you returned the
22 Trust funds on the schedule of assets for the
23 estate?
24 A. I didn't.
25 73 Q. You did not, okay.
26 A. I don't think I really realised the Trust funds had
27 anything to do with the estate in Ireland. It is
28 all a bit hazy. It sounds as though I was very
29 disinterested, but friends of John's were sort of

1 minding me and I really didn't express any huge
2 interest in anything.
3 74 Q. Did you have a legal advisor or accountant at that
4 stage that might have been dealing with those
5 matters ?
6 A. With what?
7 75 Q. To help you with the administration of the estate.
8 A. There were so many, there were a huge number of
9 people helping.
10 76 Q. Did you have a specific solicitor?
11 A. Liam McGonagle.
12 77 Q. Would he have been dealing with the legal affairs,
13 winding up your husband's affairs and so on of his
14 estate?
15 A. Pretty well so, yes.
16 78 Q. Were you yourself, Mrs. Guinness, a beneficiary
17 under your husband's will?
18 A. Yes, because I inherited it all.
19 79 Q. You were the sole beneficiary?
20 A. Yes, I think so, apart from a few small bequests.
21 80 Q. Could you, Mrs. Guinness, provide us with a copy of
22 the will and the Revenue affidavit?
23 A. I am sure I could, yes.
24 81 Q. Thank you very much. Going back to your statement
25 here, you say in the second paragraph that at some
26 of these meetings you had with Mr. Traynor you
27 expressed a general unease about the Trust. Could
28 you tell me a little more about that and why you
29 became uneasy?
1 A. He had Lloyds, he was a member of Lloyds and I
2 didn't like that because my father had been a member
3 of Lloyds and you felt your whole house was at risk
4 and I don't really like stocks and shares very much.
5 I don't really have a huge interest, so I wanted to
6 get out of that, out of Lloyds. This thing was much
7 the same sort of thing, it was just something I
8 didn't understand. I felt that it was something
9 maybe if you were a banker you could handle, but I
10 didn't like it.
11 82 Q. You go on to say that you think on reflection this
12 was because of a nagging worry about taxation, what
13 specifically worried you about the taxation aspects
14 of it?
15 A. It was a little bit cloak and dagger going to
16 collect travellers cheques.
17 83 Q. You felt the secrecy aspect of it did not appeal to
18 you?
19 A. I just believe if you live in a country you should
20 pay your taxes. Life is much less complicated if
21 you pay your taxes in the country you live in, like
22 paying VAT on boats and things. It is much easier
23 if you pay your tax, then you don't have to worry.
24 84 Q. Did you understand at that time that in some way or
25 other tax was not being paid on these transactions?
26 A. I was beginning to wonder but again, I suppose I
27 didn't question because these were, as far as I was
28 concerned, very reputable people who had been
29 friends and it is very hard to believe that the
15
1 person -- I mean banking was a very respectable
2 profession and it is very hard to believe that
3 people aren't as straight...
4 85 Q. As you expect.
5 A. It took a long time, I suppose, before I actually
6 began to worry. I was trying to get my life
7 together and it was a long time before I started to
8 question.
9 86 Q. When you did begin to worry you mentioned it to
10 Mr. Traynor, as you say here. How did he react to
11 you expressing worry about the taxation aspect of
12 it? Did he reassure you?
13 A. I am sure he probably did. The sequence of events,
14 I don't really remember. I do remember the Tax
15 Amnesty coming up and the huge relief that now this
16 was going to be easy to deal with.
17 87 Q. By the time the Tax Amnesty came up then, you were
18 in your own mind satisfied that tax was due, on the
19 interest on this deposit; is that correct?
20 A. I suppose it seemed like a golden opportunity to
21 clear the whole thing up because people weren't
22 giving me, perhaps, the straightest of answers when
23 I did ask.
24 88 Q. People being?
25 A. Well, Des.
26 89 Q. You felt he was not explaining the things correctly
27 to you?
28 A. No, I don't even remember what I asked him. As I
29 say, it was just a general feeling that this perhaps
16
1 wasn't something I wanted to continue.
2 90 Q. In relation to the Tax Amnesty then, were you
3 complying with the Tax Amnesty specifically in
4 respect of the interest that was accruing on the
5 Trust funds?
7 91 Q. Mr. Reid was your advisor there?
8 A. Yes .
9 92 Q. Mr. Reid, as you say, came to advise you about that.
10 You had heard of him but you had not met him, so do
11 you know whether he advised your husband originally
12 in the setting up of this Trust?
13 A. I have no idea. I think the Trust was there for a
14 long, long time.
15 93 Q. You do not know when it was set up, do you?
16 A. No.
17 94 Q. Did Mr. Reid, when he came to advise you on this,
18 did you have to explain to him the setting up of the
19 Trust or had Mr. Traynor done that?
20 A. No, it was slightly different. Mr. Traynor just
21 said Don Reid would set it up and deal with it all
22 for me, so I just went along to SKC, I think it was
23 then, and just signed a piece of paper.
24 95 Q. You just signed a piece of paper, there was no
25 discussion about the Trust or anything else?
26 A. No.
27 96 Q. You had no discussions whatsoever with Mr. Reid?
28 A. No.
29 97 Q. None?
1 A. I suppose I might have met him, but I don't think
2 there was any detailed discussion. He just dealt
3 with it.
4 98 Q. We must presume then that the information he got, he
5 got from Mr. Traynor?
6 A. Yes.
7 99 Q. It would appear then that Mr. Reid must have a
8 certain amount of knowledge about the workings of
9 this Trust and how it was set up and so on. If we
10 contact him, he should be able to give us some
11 information or tell us what documents he had before
12 him at that stage?
13 A. I have no idea. There was a promise of
14 confidentiality around the Tax Amnesty, so I am not
15 sure that he would know.
16 100 Q. That he himself would know?
17 A. I don't know.
18 101 Q. I think the confidentiality related to not revealing
19 the details of the person availing of the Amnesty or
20 complying with the Amnesty.
21 A. I have no idea, I didn't see the legislation.
22 102 Q. Presumably Mr. Reid in order to undertake
23 negotiations with the Revenue Commissioners must
24 have known something about your affairs or your
25 husband's affairs?
26 A. I presume so.
27 103 Q. You then say that the assets of the Trust were
28 appointed to yourself and to your children at this
29 time and the Trust was dissolved. How do you know
18
1 that the assets were appointed to you?
2 A. Well, the money just arrived in Ireland.
3 104 Q. You did not see a Deed of Appointment?
4 A. No.
5 105 Q. Did Mr. Traynor say anything?
6 A. No.
7 106 Q. When you say the money arrived in Ireland, did you
8 ask that it would arrive or how did that come about?
9 A. No, it didn't go to Guinness Mahon, it went to NCB
10 because we had fallen out with Guinness Mahon, I had
11 no more accounts with Guinness Mahon.
12 107 Q. What I am really trying to find out here is what
13 caused the money to arrive in Ireland. Some
14 decision must have been made by somebody.
15 A. I am sure Des just arranged for it to be
16 transferred.
17 108 Q. Did he tell you he was going to do this or did you
18 ask him?
19 A. I have no idea. The money came.
20 109 Q. It arrived in NCB under your name?
21 A. Yes, it joined into my portfolio there.
22 110 Q. In NCB. When you say the Trust was dissolved, you
23 simply mean that no more happened after that. As
24 far as you were concerned ....(INTERJECTION).
25 A. It was closed down.
26 111 Q. You do not have a document or anything to show?
27 A. No.
28 112 Q. Or any letter from Mr. Traynor?
29 A. No. You see it wasn't really my Trust anyway. If
19
1 it had been my Trust, I would have been able to deal
2 with it, it wasn't my Trust, it was something that
3 was overseas and I just happened to be the
4 beneficiary of it. I really didn't have any hand or
5 part in it.
6 113 Q. Yes, I understand. I would just like to show you
7 some of the correspondence that we have between
8 Des Traynor and Guinness Mahon, just to ask you if
9 you recognise particular payments referred to and so
10 on. Could we look at page 12 (SAME HANDED TO
11 MRS. GUINNESS)(Exhibit 2). You have a document
12 there in front of you which is a letter from
13 Guinness Mahon from Mr. Traynor on 4th December 1990
14 to David Humphries of Guinness Mahon. You see there
15 it asks him to have travellers cheques ready for you
16 and at the bottom you see the amount is to be
17 debited to the Ansbacher Limited account, number
18 13154602 and that was the Ansbacher pooled account
19 in Guinness Mahon in which various people who had
20 accounts with Ansbacher had their sub-accounts and
21 from which they could withdraw money. Do you
22 recollect that particular transaction or does it
23 appear to you to be one of the transactions you have
24 been talking about?
25 A. I presume it is one of the ones we are talking
26 about. I was trying to remember whether we went to
27 Australia in December 1990 or 1989, but it would
28 have been ....(INTERJECTION).
29 114 Q. In any event this would appear to you to be the kind
20
1 of transaction whereby you would go to Mr. Traynor
2 and ask for money from the Trust?
3 A. That's right.
4 115 Q. It appears from this document that in fact the money
5 was coming out of an account in Guinness Mahon in
6 the name of Ansbacher?
7 A. Yes.
8 116 Q. Can I ask you to look at another document which is
9 page 21. (SAME HANDED TO MRS. GUINNESS)(Exhibit 3).
10 Again you see it is a similar letter from
11 Mr. Traynor to the same person in Guinness Mahon
12 dated 16th November 1992. Here the amount to be
13 debited is to be debited to Ansbacher Limited Re
14 Poinciana Fund Number 2 account. Does that name
15 mean anything, have you ever heard that?
17 117 Q. Again does that appear to be one of the transactions
18 that you would have had with Mr. Traynor?
19 A. I presume so.
20 118 Q. I will just show you maybe two more of around that
21 time, page 13 and 14. (SAME HANDED TO
22 MRS. GUINNESS)(Exhibits 4 & 5). Actually, if you
23 just look at all of those, Mrs. Guinness, and
24 confirm to me that they appear to you to be the
25 transactions you were carrying out with Mr. Traynor.
26 If we could just go through them page by page, you
27 will see that the pages are numbered down at the
28 bottom right hand corner, so if we go through them
29 in that order. Page 13 is a letter of 12th August
21
1 1991 (Exhibit 4)and it is signed with an
2 indecipherable signature for Ansbacher Limited and
3 it is addressed this time to Irish Intercontinental
4 Bank. I do not know whether you know or not that
5 the Ansbacher account was transferred at a
6 particular point from Guinness Mahon to Irish
7 Intercontinental Bank which is why he is writing
8 there. Again you see it is in respect this time of
9 a transfer to your account in Barclay's and again
10 the cost is to be debited to the Ansbacher account,
11 this time in IIB.
12 A. I never would have seen these letters, I would have
13 only just rung Des and said, 'look, I need a bit
14 more money.'
15 119 Q. All I am concerned with at this stage is to see
16 whether they appear to be the sort of transactions
17 you would have gone to Mr. Traynor about.
18 A. I don't really know because I wasn't really involved
19 in this end of it.
20 120 Q. When I say the sort of transactions, you would be
21 asking him to transfer £2,000 to your account in
22 Barclay's. It is unlikely to be anything other than
23 you withdrawing money from the Trust fund?
24 A. Unlikely, yes.
25 121 Q. If we look at page 14, we see a letter of
26 13th December (Exhibit 6) and it is signed this time
27 by Joan Williams, who was Mr. Traynor's secretary?
28 A. That's right.
29 122 Q. To IIB and again it refers to a transfer, this time
22
1 of £15,000stg. to your Barclay's bank account?
2 A. Yes.
3 123 Q. The cost to be debited to Ansbacher. Page 16,
4 (Exhibit 7)a similar transaction signed by Joan
5 Williams to IIB, 2nd March 1992 and it is another
6 transfer of sterling to Barclay's Bank, the cost to
7 be debited to Ansbacher. On page 17 you have the
8 23rd September 1992 (Exhibit 8) and this time a
9 transfer of £5,000stg. to Barclay's and the cost to
10 be debited to Ansbacher. At page 18 we are in to
11 1993 and it is 8th February (Exhibit 9)and again it
12 is a transfer of £5,000stg. to your account in
13 Barclays and this time it refers to debiting the
14 cost to the Hamilton Ross account. Are you familiar
15 with that? Again that was a further account used by
16 Mr. Traynor in which to keep the funds of persons
17 who had a relationship with Ansbacher, who had money
18 in Ansbacher. On page 19, 3rd March 1993, (Exhibit
19 10) Joan Williams writing to IIB asking to transfer
20 £6,000stg. to your account in Barclay's Bank.
21 Finally page 20, on 17th May 1993 there is the
22 transfer of £3,000 to Barclay's Bank. That appears
23 to be quite a number of transactions in the space of
24 a couple of years. Would you have been withdrawing
25 on a fairly frequent basis as is indicated by those?
26 A. I am just trying to remember what I spent it on. I
27 know I spent a lot on air fares because I was
28 sailing around the world and I came backwards and
29 forwards quite a lot. The rest would have been on
23
1 going to London and clothes, that sort of thing.
2 124 Q. Getting back to the return of the funds, that must
3 have been later in 1993, was it, or was it early in
4 1994 that that happened when you complied with the
5 Amnesty?
6 A. Late 1993.
7 125 Q. Just again to try and clarify what actually happened
8 and how the funds came back to NCB. Here we see
9 that whenever you wished to carry out some
10 transaction you contacted Mr. Traynor and then he
11 did the rest.
12 A. Yes.
13 126 Q. When it came to complying with the Tax Amnesty, you
14 needed to have that money back here and did you then
15 ask Mr. Traynor to return the balance of it here?
16 A. As far as I remember when the Tax Amnesty was
17 announced, I rang my brother-in-law and asked him to
18 come over because he was really my
19 ....(INTERJECTION).
20 127 Q. Mr. Traynor rang you?
21 A. No, I did. We went to see Des and said, 'look, I
22 want to avail of the Amnesty' and he said, 'fine, I
23 will arrange it' as far as I remember. The next
24 thing was he said that Don Reid would act for us in
25 this matter and negotiate with the Revenue here.
26 Then eventually we just went along and signed some
27 papers and the money was transferred to my stocks or
28 shares, well, the stocks and shares must have been
29 transferred to NCB.
24
1 128 Q. How did you know it had been transferred?
2 A. Because it appeared in my account in NCB.
3 129 Q. Did anyone tell you before that that this was going
4 to happen?
5 A. I don't understand.
6 130 Q. The money was over there in Cayman or in Dublin,
7 wherever it was, it was in a Trust?
8 A. I never thought of the money being in Dublin. I
9 always assumed that it was actually genuinely in a
10 bank in Cayman.
11 131 Q. Wherever it physically was, it was in Trust
12 somewhere?
13 A. Yes .
14 132 Q. Because of the Tax Amnesty and because, as you
15 explained, you wanted to clear up the whole thing,
16 you wanted to make a settlement with the Revenue
17 Commissioners, pay whatever tax was outstanding and
18 then, presumably, you wanted to be finished with
19 this Trust?
20 A. Yes .
21 133 Q. Mr. Reid on your behalf dealt with the Revenue
22 Commissioners, but how exactly did you finish with
23 the Trust? Did you say to Mr. Traynor, 'look, close
24 down this Trust and bring the money back here' or
25 what?
26 A. I suppose so, I don't really remember. It just
27 happened. He must have closed it down.
28 134 Q. It is just that obviously you know these things do
29 not just happen by themselves. Someone was given an
25
1 instruction?
2 A. I instructed Des Traynor to finish with the Trust.
3 135 Q. You actually said to him?
4 A. I don't remember what I said to him, but I just
5 assume that I was sitting around and said, 'look,
6 Des, I want to finish with this, I don't like it.'
7 He would have then said it was all going to be
8 tidied up and brought back here. I don't remember
9 the actual words of the conversation.
10 136 Q. I am sure you do not. Would he not have asked you
11 what you wanted to do with these funds?
12 A. They would have come back here to my portfolio.
13 137 Q. I know that is what happened, as you have explained.
14 Someone must have asked you if that was what you
15 wished to do or did you wish to put them in a bank
16 account or what did you wish to do with these funds
17 that were now going to come back?
18 A. They were in stocks and shares.
19 138 Q. Anyway.
20 A. Yes, I didn't transfer cash into stocks and shares.
21 As I understood it, there was a sort of portfolio in
22 Cayman, innocently I thought it was actually there
23 and I thought that the bank in Cayman would just
24 merely transfer it or the assets of the Trust which
25 were in stocks and shares, some of them were
26 American and some of them were English and they
27 would have come across and gone to NCB.
28 139 Q. Clearly there were funds apart from stocks and
29 shares because you were able to withdraw money?
26
1 A. I have no idea, I don't think I even thought of the
2 detail. You get interest on stocks and shares, so
3 that, presumably, was where -- I didn't know whether
4 they sold stocks and shares, I presume that stocks
5 and shares had some sort of value or income.
6 140 Q. Clearly the money was coming from somewhere that you
7 could draw upon?
8 A. Yes, I presumed that was the income from the stocks
9 and shares in Cayman.
10 141 Q. What happened to that income?
11 A. I don't know, a lot of it must have gone to pay the
12 taxman.
13 142 Q. Did you ask Des Traynor to bring that back or did
14 you distinguish between that?
15 A. I didn't distinguish at all, I just said I wanted
16 the whole thing shut down. I presume they must have
17 had to sell some stocks and shares to pay the tax
18 bill, so there would not have been cash lying
19 around, I wouldn't have thought, at the end of
20 paying the Revenue.
21 143 Q. Is it your understanding that Mr. Reid would have
22 dealt with that aspect of things?
23 A. I don't know whether he did or Des did, but somebody
24 did.
25 144 Q. Did you have any other advisors or any other
26 accountant at that stage?
27 A. No. SKC, and I don't know who was actually the
28 regular accountant in SKC ....(INTERJECTION).
29 145 Q. Are these your accountants or were they?
27
1 A. They were, yes, and they still are. They are KMPG
2 now.
3 146 Q. Yes, that's right. During all of this time when you
4 were worried about the Trust and you were talking to
5 Mr. Traynor about it, did you discuss that with your
6 accountants from SKC at that stage?
7 A. You see, I wasn't really worried. Des was a
8 respectable friend, it was just something that
9 nagged away. I didn't get up every morning or I
10 didn't see Des more than maybe occasionally and ring
11 him up when I asked him for money, but I wouldn't be
12 discussing it with him on a regular basis.
13 147 Q. You did not feel you needed any independent advice
14 on this whole thing to see whether it was okay to
15 continue withdrawing or not?
16 A. It never occurred to me that it wasn't.
17 148 Q. You were a little bit worried?
18 A. Yes, but it took a long time before -- I spent
19 couple of years travelling and getting organised and
20 it took a bit of time before I actually started to
21 get a handle on things. In the beginning it just
22 didn't really matter, money didn't seem terribly
23 important.
24 149 Q. Yes .
25 A. There was plenty of money there for my needs and
26 that was really all...
27 150 Q. That you worried about. I think we might take a
28 five or ten minute break and have a cup of coffee,
29 Mrs. Guinness, and we will come back. I will not

1 have very much more to ask you after that and it
2 will give you time to take a breath.
4 (SHORT ADJOURNMENT)
6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mrs. Guinness, we have no
7 further questions to ask
8 you. What you said today will be transcribed now
9 and we would ask you to come in to sign the
10 transcript, it will be some time after Easter.
11 A. There is one slight correction that Michael O'Shea
12 says I should make and I was thinking about it, but
13 immediately after John died Pat McCann dealt with
14 the regular tax returns to the Revenue because he
15 had an office just around, so immediately afterwards
16 I didn't deal with SKC, I dealt with Pat McCann &
17 Partners. He returned ....(INTERJECTION).
18 151 Q. MS. MACKEY: McCann & Partners?
19 A. Was it McCann & Associates?
20 MR. O'SHEA: I am not sure of the name.
21 A. They had an office in Andrew Street and then they
22 moved down to Winetavern Street and they did all the
23 CAT returns on the children and everything like
24 that.
25 152 Q. MS. MACKEY: They would have been
26 likely to have dealt with
27 the Schedule of Assets for the Revenue?
28 A. I think it is probably -- I just don't know. I
29 don't know whether...
29
1 153 Q. Do you know if they are still in Winetavern Street?
2 A. Yes.
3 154 Q. It is called Pat McCann & Associates?
5 MR. O'SHEA: I will try to
6 find the name for you.
7 MS. MACKEY: If you would, please.
8 A. It was Pat McCann that we dealt with immediately
9 after John died as a tax consultant. I didn't have
10 SKC in those days.
11 155 Q. Okay.
12 A. Just so as you are not looking in the wrong place.
13 MS. MACKEY: Thank you very much.
14 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you.
15
16 END OF INTERVIEW
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
c
VACXTA^ Gos.(vy.iKxrst
So VLo^Vq r
to T V J ^ aooo
Appendix XV (52) (l)(b)
STATEMENT OF JENNIFER GUINNESS
My husband John died on 27 February 1988 and a short time afterwards Des Traynor
who was a personal friend of ours asked me to call to his office. I called as requested
a short time later. Mr. Traynor spoke to me about John and while I do not recall his
/"-v precise words the gist of it was that my late husband John had established a trust for
the benefit of myself and my children and that the trust was administered in the
Cayman Islands. I now realise that I did not fully appreciate what he said at the time
and indeed it took me a number of years after my husband's death before fully
appreciating the trust and other aspects of my late husband's business affairs. I do
recall Mr. Traynor saying that if I needed funds he would arrange for payment to be
made from the trust and I availed of this suggestion to defray the costs of a sailing trip
around the world that I embarked upon after my husband's death. Some other
payments were also made to me by the trustees.
After my return permanently to Ireland, I saw Mr. Traynor from time to time and on
many of these occasions he showed me statements which gave the value of the trust.
At some of these meetings I expressed a general unease about the trust, I think, on
reflexion, because of a nagging worry about taxation and also because I had no real
knowledge of the workings of the trust and no control over it or of the funds in the
trust. When the tax amnesty was announced it provided me the opportunity to
regularise my tax affairs and Mr. Traynor agreed to assist me in this. He instructed
Don Reid to act on my behalf. Mr. Reid is a tax expert of whom I had heard but had
not met. Mr. Reid made Returns to the Revenue Commissioners and entered into
negotiations with them on my behalf. Settlement was reached with the Revenue
Commissioners and a payment made to them from the funds of the trust which was at
that time distributed. While I signed Returns to the Revenue Commissioners I do not
have copies of these and I do not now recall the details of the discussions and
negotiations undertaken by Mr. Reid with the Revenue Commissioners on the amount
paid to them.
The assets of the trust were appointed to myself and iqy children at this time and the
trust was dissolved. I had no reason to think of the trust thereafter until the
McCracken and Moriarty Tribunals. Until these Tribunals I was not familiar with the
name Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited or the extent of the trust operations of that Bank.
I do not have and never had in my possession the Trust Deed or Letter of Wishes. I
do not know who the trustees were other than that the trust was administered in the
Cayman Islands. I have no knowledge of Amiens Investments Limited or Kentford
Securities Limited nor of any of the arrangements described in the letter to me of 7
February 2000 from the Office of the Inspectors appointed by Order of the High Court
to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited.
Dated the tr day of fif*.! 2000
Signed:
n
.'-iIJV- •'•^S'li' *
T H I S INDENTURE OF SETTLEMENT i s m a d e t h e day of -j

A.D. 1 9 7 2 BETWEEN J o h n H e n r y G u i n n o s s o f C e n s u r e H o u s e , Censure Rpad,
•The R a t l e y , Howth, Ireland (hereinafter called "the Settlor") of the
one p a r t a n d GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED a c o m p a n y incorporated
under t h e laws of t h e Cayman I s l a n d s and c a r r y i n g on b u s i n e s s therein
^ (hereinafter called "the Trustees" which term s h a l l also include any
additional or successor trustee or trustees hereof) of the other •
" part
WHEREAS t h e S e t t l o r has caused the property described in

tho F i r s t Schedule hereto (which t o g e t h e r .with t h e money investments
and p r o p e r t y for the time being r e p r e s e n t i n g t h e same and any additions
or diminishmonts thornto and any f u r t h e r property becoming subject
to the trusts hereof is hereinafter called " t h e T r u s t Fund) to be
duly transferred•into t h e name o r u n d e r the control of the Trustees
with the i n t e n t that the same s h a l l be h e l d upon t h e trusts hereinafter
expressed
NOW T H I S SETTLEMENT WITNESSETH a s follows

- 1. The T r u s t e e s shall stand possessed of t h e T r u s t Fund during
the period commencing on t h e d a t e of executlbn of. t h e s e p r e s e n t s and
terminating on t h e e x p i r a t i o n of twenty (20) years after the death
of the last survivor of the lineal dfescendents now l i v i n g of His
Lnte M a j e s t y King George t h e F i f t h o r on t h e e x p i r a t i o n of seventy
years from the date hereof (whichever shall be the e a r l i e r ) (said
poriod braing h e r e i n a f t e r called "the Accumulation Period" and said
termination date being hereinafter called "the Fixed Date")
UPON TRUST a s to investments or property other t h a n money either
to permit all o r any of t h e same t o r e m a i n a s i n v e s t e d f o r as long
as the Trustees shall in their absolute discretion deem f i t or to s e l l call
in or convert i n t o money a l l or any of such investments or property
UPON TRUST a s t o money i n c l u d i n g t h e money a r i s i n g from any such sale
calling in or conversion as aforesaid to invest the same i n o r u p o n # , .
any of the investments hereinafter authorised ... •,.._._
2. THE T r u s t e e s mAy a p p l y o r invest the Trust Fund i n the
purchase of or at interest upon t h e security of such stocks funds shares
securities options or other investments or property whether real or
personal movable or immovable of w h a t e v e r nature and whereever situate
(including any f r a c t i o n a l or undivided interest therein and including
the purchase maintenance or improvement of a •freehold or leasehold
dwellinghouse situate anywhere in the world for use as a r e s i d e n c e ) and
whether involving liability or not and whether producing income or
i
not or upon such personal credit with.or without security as the
Trustees in their absolute discretion shall think fit with power from
time to time t o vary such investments for others of a like nature (yet
being under no duty t o d i v e r s i f y investments) and w i t h power t o hold
cash funds uninvested and o t h e r n o n - i n c o m e p r o d u c i n g property to the ,
extent that the Trustees s h a l l have the same f u l l and unrestricted
powers of investing the Trust Fund i n a l l respects.as if they were
absolute owners beneficially entitled PROVIDED h o w e v e r t h a t in the '
professed execution of the trusts and p o w e r s h e r e o f the Trustees shall
not be liable for any l o s s t o t h e T r u s t Fund a r i s i n g by r e a s o n of any
i n v e s t m e n t s made i n good f a i t h o r by r e a s o n of any mistake o r omission
made i n good f a i t h by t h e T r u s t e e s or by reason of any o t h e r m a t t e r or
thing except wilful and i n d i v i d u a l fraud or wilful and individual
wrong-doing on t h e p a r t of t h e T r u s t e e s who a r e s o u g h t t o b e made liable
without limiting the generality of the foregoing the Trustees are
hereby specifically empowered t o make i n v e s t m e n t s and t o acquire
property without any requirement of diversification even though such
investments o r p r o p e r t y may b e h i g h l y s p e c u l a t i v e or n o t of a type
which are ordinarily legal or s u i t a b l e tjr^pt investments or holdings
in particular t h e T r u s t e e s may m a r g i n o r h y p o t h e c a t e trust assets or
securities i n whole or in part sell short purchase or s e l l options puts
calls or other contracts or s e c u r i t i e s or commodities and c a r r y on
trading activities of every type whatsoever
u
THE T r u s t e e s shall have t h e power to sell lease or exchange
and t o grant options to purchase lease or exchange any p r o p e r t y movable
or immovable (which expression shall b e deemed a l w a y s t o include any
part or share of a n y s u c h p r o p e r t y w h i c h may a t any time constitute
t h e whole or any p a r t of t h e T r u s t Fund e i t h e r at public auction or
private sale for such consideration and on s u c h t e r m s c r e d i t or security
as the Trustees may d e e m a d v i s a b l e and w h e t h e r for the purpose of
re-investment distribution or d i v e r s i o n and no p u r c h a s e r on a n y sale
by t h e T r u s t e e s or other person dealing with the Trustees shall
be concerned to inquire into the propriety or validity of any act
of the Trustees or to see to the application of a n y money paid
or property transferred t o o r upon t h e order of the Trustees.
4. DURING t h e A c c u m u l a t i o n P e r i o d the Trustees shall stand

possessed of the Trust Fund and t h e income t h e r e o f upon t h e following
trusts that is to say:-
(a) Upon t r u s t for all or any t o the exclusion of the: others
or other of the persons described in the Seconcf S c h e d u l e hereto
(hereinafter called "the Beneficiaries") in such shares and in.'such
manner and s u b j e c t to such limitations and p r o v i s i o n s as the Trustees
in their absolute and u n c o n t r o l l e d discretion at arfy t i m e o r times
before t h e F i x e d Date by any deed or deeds r e v o c a b l e or irrevocable
without transgressing the rule against porpetuities may a p p o i n t and
BO t h a t by any such appointment the Trustees may c o n f e r upon any
appointee any v a l i d power or powers of appointment in favour of any-
other Beneficiary AND i t is expressly provided (without prejudice to
the generality of the foregoing) that t h e T r u s t e e s may a p p o i n t on
discretionary trusts and that such t r u s t s may i n c l u d e as objects of
t h e powers as regards income of t h e T r u s t Fund a n y B e n e f i c i a r y and
may d i s p o s e of t h e whole o r any p a r t of t h e T r u s t Fund t o t h e T r u s t e e s .
J»f a n y other Settlement (in existence at the time of such disposition
and whether in accordance with the laws of the Cayman I s l a n d s or not)
under which any B e n e f i c i a r y is a beneficiary t o b e h e l d a s an accretion
to the Trust Fund t h e r e o f and s u b j e c t t o any such appointment and
so far as the s a m e may n o t extend
(b) Upon T r u s t t o accumulate income of t h e Trust Fund
in t h e way o f compound i n t e r e s t by i n v e s t i n g the same and t h e resulting
income therefrom i n any of t h e investments hereinbefore authorised
and adding such .accumulations and r e s u l t i n g income as a c c r e t i o n s to
and as a part of. t h e T r u s t Fund
(c) Provided always t h a t the Trustees in their absolute
discretion may p a y o r a p p l y a t any t i m e and from time to time during
the Accumulation Period all or any p a r t of t h e income or c a p i t a l of *
the Trust Fund t o o r f o r the benefit of t h e B e n e f i c i a r i e s and i f more
than one for any one o r more t o t h e exclusion of the other or others
of them and i n such shares a s t h e T r u s t e e s may i n their absolute
discretion think fit
(d) Upon t h e termination of the Trust on t h e F i x e d Date
Upon T r i i f t t am t o t h o b a l a n c e of t h " Trunt Fund t o o r f o r the. Benefit
of tho children of J o h n Henry G u i n n e s s as s h a l l be living immediately
before the Fixed Date if more t h a n one i n e q u a l sharos per stirpes
and s u b j e c t as aforesaid the Trustees shall hold the capital and
Income of the Trust Fund i n T r u s t for tho National Trust of Ireland
and t h e r o c e i p t s of the Treasurer for the timq b e i n g of such Charity
shall b e a good d i s c h a r g e to the Trustees '
(e) Any p a y m e n t o r a p p l i c a t i o n of t h e T r u s t F u n d t o o'r f o r

the benefit of any one o r more of the p a r t i e s hereinbefore enumerated
jUnay b e m a d e e i t h e r outright or in t r u s t for the said party or parties
which t r u s t o r t r u s t s may b e f o r m e d by t h e T r u s t e e s with such
provisions and upon such terms and c o n d i t i o n s including trusts and
powers e x e r c i s a b l e at the discretion of any p e r s o n or p e r s o n s as the
T r u s t e e s may i n t h e i r absolute discretion think fit
5. IN a d d i t i o n to all t h e powers v e s t e d in the Trustees'expressly

or by i m p l i c a t i o n hereunder or by law o r s t a t u t e the Trustees shall
have a l l tho following p o w e r s a n d may i n t h e i r absolute discretion'
exercise ail o r a n y of t h e same from t i m e t o t i m e i n s u c h m a n n e r and
to such extent if at all a s may s e e m t o t h e m desirable
t
(a) To r e c e i v e additional property or d o n a t i o n s by g i f t or

will o r by t h e p r o v i s i o n s of any o t h e r trust or t r u s t s or otherwise
from a n y p e r s o n or persons as additions to t h i s Trust and a s p a r t of the
Trust F u n d a n d t o h o l d t h e same u p o n t h e T r u s t s h e r e i n set for.th and
to administer such additions under t h e p r o v i s i o n s hereof
(b) Vith respect t o any p r o p e r t y constituting the whole or

part of the Trust Fund t o e x e r c i s e all p'owers w h i c h individual
ueneficial owners might e x e r c i s e without ueing r e s t r i c t e d i n a n y way
uy t h e o f f i c e of t r u s t e e including (without prejudice to the
generality of the foregoing) the following powers
(i) T o p r o m o t e and i n c o r p o r a t e companies t o carry on any
business whatsoever and p o w e r t o liquidate t h e same and
distribute their assets in specie or otherwise
(ii) To v o t e u p o n o r i n r e s p e c t of any s h a r e s securities
bonds n o t e s or other evidence or i n t e r e s t in or ooligations
of nny c o r p o r a t i o n trust association or concerntiwhether or
not affecting the security or the apparent security of. a n y .
part of the Trust Fund o r t h o p u r c h a s e o r s a l e or l e a s e of t h e
assets of any such corporation^.
(Ill) To g i v e p r o x i e s or powers of attorney with or
without power of wub *t. i t u t i o n f o r voting or M a t i n g on behalf
of the Trustoes as t h e owners of any such p r o p e r t y and
(iv) To p a r t i c i p a t e i n and c o n s e n t to any corporate
reorganisation consolidation merger liquidation
. *
dissolution sale or lease or in and'to-any o t h e r change in
any c o r p o r a t i o n or in i t s financial structure affecting
any s e c u r i t i e s or other property held hereunder and
(v) To become a p a r t y t o any v o t i n g t r u s t ' , o r d e p o s i t any
• securities or property held hereunder w i t h any protective
reorganisation or s i m i l a r committee or i n any voting
trust o r w i t h any d e p o s i t a r y designated ther-eoy and
(vi) To e x e r c i s e or concur in e x e r c i s i n g the voting and
other rights attaching t o any s e c u r i t i e s for the time being
forming part of the Trust Fund s o a s t o become a Director
or other officer o r employee of any company and t o be
intitled t o v o t e for and t o be p a i d and t o retain for
the Trustees' u s e and o e n e f i t reasonable remuneration for-
the Trustees' services
(vil) To h o l d o r d e p o s i t any s e c u r i t i e s or other property
in bearer form o r i n t h e name o f t h e T r u s t e e s or in the
name o f any one of them b e i n g a T r u s t Corporation or
• j
i n t h e name o f some o t h e r persons or partnership or in
t h e name of a duly appointed nominee w i t h o u t disclosing
the fiduciary relationship and
(viii) To o m i t t o r e g i s t e r uonds o r ^ s e c u r i t i e s and
(ix) To k e e p t h e whole o r any p a o j L j o t t h e documents
relating t o a n d t h e money i n v e s t m e n t s a n d p r o p e r t y comprised
in the said Trust Fund w i t h i n o r w i t h o u t the said Cayman
Islands
(c) To i n v e s t re-invest and manage t h e T r u s t Fund either
separately or together vith other funds t o acquire and r e t a i n the shares
or securities of investment companies or investment t r u s t s whether of
the open or c l o s e d t y p e and w i t h o u t n o t i c e t o anyone t o p a r t i c i p a t e in
a n y common t r u s t fund m a i n t a i n e d Dy a n y c o r p o r a t e trustee at any time
serving hereunder
(d) To e n g a g e t h e s e r v i c e s of an i n v e s t m e n t advisor or
y *
advisors at the e x p e n s e of the T r u s t Fund and w i t h o u t liability to

follow the recommendations of s u c h a d v i s o r or a d v i s o r s even tiough _
Buch r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s may b e h i g h l y s p e c u l a t i v e or not of a t y p e - 1
which would o r d i n a r i l y be l e g a l or s u i t a b l e trust investments
(e) v oorrow or l e n d money on s u c h terms* a n d from
or to such p e r s o n s Including the Ocneficiaries as the Trustees may

determine to oe r e a s o n a b l e and p r o p e r and w i t h o u t limiting the
generality of tho foregoing to margin or hypothecate all or any
protion.of the Trust Pund.
(f) To make e x e c u t e and d e l i v e r deeds conveyances •^

assignments transgers options leases mortgages instruments of pledge
instruments creating liens contracts and o t h e r instruments sealed
f
or unsealed to rase or erect any b u i l d i n g or otîer structures and to
1
make any k i n d of improvements which t h e Trustees deem proper
(g) Without p r e j u d i c e t o t h e j u r i s d i c t i o n of the Court and

according to-the respective rights and interests of t h e persons
interested to treat as income or c a p i t a l or to appontion between
income and c a p i t a l any d i v i d e n d s stock dividends rights interest
rent issues and p r o f i t s derived from any p r o p e r t y at any time comprised
in the Trust Pund and g e n e r a l l y to determine what p a r t of the receipts
of the Trust is: income and what is capital and w h e t h e r o r n o t such
property is wasting or unproductive o r was p u r c h a s e d at a premium
or discount and n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g the t i m e when s u c h d i v i d e n d s stock
dividends rights interest rents issues or p r o f i t s were earned accrued
declared or paid t o make s u c h r e s e r v e s out of income or c a p i t a l as
tho Trustees deem p r o p e r for expenses taxes and o t h e r liabilities of
the Trust t o p a y from income or from capital or to apportion between
income and c a p i t a l any expenses of m a k i n g c h a n g i n g investments and
of soiling exchanging or leasing includin0-~torokers' commissions and
charges and g e n e r a l l y to determine what p a r t of the expenses of the
Trust shall be charged to capital and what p a r t to income and to
determine a s oetween separate funds and s e p a r a t e parts or shares the
allocation of income'gains profits l o s s e s and distributions
(h) To c a r r y on p a r t i c i p a t e or invest in any corporation

partnership joint venture or co-operative and t o e n t e r into such
leases contracts or other undertakings relating to the Trust Pund
or any p a r t of it as the Trustees shall in their uncontrolled
discretion deem a d v a n t a g e o u s n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g Uiat s u c h leases contracts
or undertakings extend o r may e x t e n d beyond t h e termination of this
Trust
(i) To i n s t i t u t e prosecute and defend any s u i t s or
actions or other proceedings affecting the Trustees or the Trust-
Fund or any p a r t thereof t o compromise any m a t t e r s of d i f f e r e n c e or
compound any d e b t s owing lo lhem nu T r u s t e e s or any o t h e r c l a i m s and
to adjust any d i s p u t e s in r e l a t i o n to debts or claims against them as
Trustees upon evidence that to the Trustees shall seem s u f f i c i e n t and
in whole or in part at public auction or privkte sale or otherwise
and upon such t e r m s and for such terms as the Trustees deem
advisable t o make p a r t i t i o n with the co-owners or joint owners besides
the Trust having any i n t e r e s t in any p r o p e r t i e s in which the Trustees
are interested a n d t o make s u c h p a r t i t i o n either by s a l e o r by set-off
or by agreement or otherwise (including where deemed desirable
provision for equality of exchange)
(j) To t a k e tho opinion or advice of counsel concerning

any d i f f e r e n c e arising under this Settlement or any m a t t e r in a n y way
relating to the Trust Fund o r t o t h e T r u s t e e s ' duties in connection
with the Trust Fund and i n a l l such matters to act in accordance with
the opinion of such counsel
(k) T o employ a n d p a y a t the expense of the Trust Fund any

agent in any p a r t of t h e w o r l d w h e t h e r an a t t o r n e y solicitor banker
i
accountant stockbroker or othor agent and w h e t h e r or not being one
of the Trustees hereunder to transact any b u s i n e s s o r do any act
required to be transacted or done i n t h e execution of the trusts
hereof including the receipt or payment of money and t h e execution
of documents and no f i r m association or corporation any of whose
securities a e included within the Trust«£und and no p u r c h a s e r or other
person dealing with.any agent purporting to act under delegation of
authority from the Trustees shall be required to ascertain or inquire
whether a case exists i n which such d e l e g a t i o n is permitted or whether
such delegated authority is still subsisting PROVIDED h o w e v e r t h a t the
Trustees shall not be r e s p o n s i b l e for the default negligence or fraud
of any a g e n t , so employed or for any loss occasioned thereby although .
the employment of s u c h a g e n t was n o t strictly necessary or expedient
(l) Upon a h d f o r the purpose of any d i s t r i b u t i o n or

appropriation of the Trust Fund o r any p a r t therof in their
unfettered discretion to place such value on a n y a n d a l l assets from
time to time forming part of the Trust Fund a s t o them i n their
absolute and u n c o n t r o 1 led d i s c r e t i o n shall seem j u s t and proper
and any such valuation mado i n g o o d f a i t h shall bo absolutely
final and b i n d i r o * n d conclusive on n i l Hnneficlaries hereunder
end further upon any such d i s c r e t i o n or appropriation to determine to
whom s p e c i f i e d assets shall be given and t o distribute the same
subject t o t h e payment of s u c h a m o u n t s a s may b e n e c e s s a r y to adjust
the shares of the various Bcneficiaries and f u r t h e r that any
distributions of the Trust F u n d may b o e i t h e r made d i r e c t l y to any
Beneficiary or applied for his benofit by t h e T r u s t e e s or during his
minority mado t o h i s duly appointed guardian or t o any person with
whom h e lives or r e s i d e s for t h e u s e of said Beneficiary without
responsibility for its expenditure
WITHOUT p r e j u d i c e to the generality of Clause 5 hereof if

the Trust Fund s h a l l i n c l u d e any s h a r e s or other interests in a company
tho ownership of which g i v e s t o thorn t h o r i g h t in any circumstances
to control the affairs of t h e Company o r o f any of its subsidiaries*
the Trustees shall be u n d e r no l i a b i l i t y or duty to appoint any
representative t o t h e Board of t h e said Company o r o f any of its
subsidiaries and f u r t h e r shall h a v e no r e s p o n s i b i l i t y to enquire into
oversee or take part i n t h e management or affairs or business of the
Company o r any of its subsidiaries
*
7 IN a d d i t i o n to reinbursement of their proper expenses.the
Trustees shall be e n t i t l e d to remuneration (free of any probate

succession estate or other death duties wheresoever payable and as
a first charge on t h e T r u s t Fund) for their services as Trustees in
accordance with their published scale ofTfees in force from time to
time £2£VIDKD h o w e v e r that the Trusteos may t r a n s a c t on b e h a l f of or
with the Trust or any B e n e f i c i a r y hereunder any b u s i n e s s which by their
constitution they are authorised to undertake upon the same t e r m s as
would for the t i m e b e i n g b e made w i t h a n o r d i n a r y customer and without
accounting for my profit t h e r e b y made a n d i n p a r t i c u l a r and without
prejudice to the generality of t h e foregoing t h e T r u s t e e s may retain
on c u r r e n t account or deposit account or advance at interest all
moneys n e c e s s a r y or convenient t o be r e t a i n e d or advanced in
connection with the Trust a n d may r e t a i n for themselves any commission
or remuneration p a i d o r a l l o w e d by s t o c k b r o k e r s insurance companies
or other agents without being liable to an a c c o u n t for any profit
thereby m a d e PROVIDED f u r t h e r that t h e T r u s t e e s may t r a n s a c t business
n
on b e h a l f of tho Trust o r nny b e n e f i c i a r y hereunder with any corporation

or p a r t n e r s h i p i n which the Trustees are office holders or shareholders
or p a r t n e r s or are otherwise financially interested or with any person
or firm holding shares or being otherwise financially interested in
tho Trusteos without being liable to account for any p r o f i t accruing to
the Trustees as such office holders shareholders or partners as a result
of such business a n d t h e T r u s t e e s may h o l d office i n any corporation
shares or securities in which comprise o r form part of the Trust Fund
and s h a l l not be liable to account to the Trust for emoluments received
1
by them a s such office holders.
5 isl-HL'S T r u s t e e s hereof (whether original or substituted) may

at any time o r t i m e bo removed from their o f f i c e of T r u s t e e s by n
Deed e x e c u t e d oy t h e S e t t l o r (hereinafter called "the Appointor") and
delivered to the Trusteos a n d t h o A p p o i n t o r may b y d e e d e x e c u t e d and
delivered as aforesaid appoint any o t h e r person or persons whether or not
resident in t h e Cayman I s l a n d s t o b e T r u s t e e s either jointly with any
other than continuing Trustees or s o l e l y if after removal t h e r e shall
not be any c o n t i n u i n g Trustees and t h e r e u p o n the Trust Fund s h a l l be
by an a s s u r a n c e a s may b e n e c e s s a r y or expedient vested jointly in the
persons who s h a l l thereupon become t h e T r u s t e e s of the Trusts hereby
created PROVIDED h o w e v e r , that an o u t g o i n g t r u s t e e who i s liable as a
trustee hereof o r may o n t h e dâth of any p e r s o n become liable as a former

trustee thereof for any income p r o b a t e estate or other duties fees or
taxes shall not be bound t o transfer the Trust Fund a s aforesaid-unless
reasonable security is provided for indemnifying such outgoing trustee
against such liability PNOVIDBDÂLSO t h a t no removal of trustees by
the Appointor shall be effective unless after such removal (either
with or without a new a p p o i n t m e n t ) there shall remain at least one
trustee being a trust corporation or two t r u s t e e s Deing individuals
(b) Without prejudice to the powers c o n t a i n e d in sub-clause

(A) of the Clause if a Trustee hereof whether original or substituted
shall die or being a corporation be d i s s o l v e d or shall desire to be
discharged from all or any of the t r u s t s or powers hereof or shall
refuse or become u n f i t to act therein or become i n c a p a b l e of acting
therein then the following persons namoly:-
(i) The S e t t l o r or if he s h a l l be dead or unable or
unwilling to act
(ii) The s u r v i v i n g or c o n t i n u i n g T r u s t e e s hereof for the
time being or if there be no s u r v i v i n g or continuing' Trustees"
(iii) The p e r s o n a l representatives of the Inst surviving
last Trustee was a c o r p o r a t i o n then such last' trustee
upon r o t i r o m n n t may b y doc>d a p p o i n t ono o r more othor
persons or corporation (whether or not Doing or including
the persons exercising t h e power) to oe a T r u s t e e or
Trustees i n t h e p l a c e of the Trustee so deceased dissolved
«
desiring t o be discharged refusing or-being unfit or being

incapaule as aforesaid.
t
(c) The powers i n suo-clauso (a) OP T H I S C l a u s e contained
nay at any t i m e be i r r e v o c a b l y released by a deed e x e c u t e d by the
Appointor and d e l i v e r e d to the Trustees and t h e Appointor may i n like
manner revocably or irrevocaoly grant the said powers t o any person
or persons to take effect i m m e d i a t e l y .or a f t e r t h e d e a t h of the
Appointor as t h e c a s e may be.
(d) The T r u s t e e s h e r e o f or any of them (whether original or

s u D s t i t u t o d ) may i f they so d e s i r e resign as Trustees hereunder after
30 d a y s w r i t t e n notice of t h e i r intention so t o do s e n t oy registered
prepaid post t o the Appointor or such person a s t h e A p p o i n t o r may f r o m
time to time appoint in writing such r e s i g n a t i o n shall oecome effective
upon the day s p e c i f i e d in such n o t i c e of resignation
t
(e) In tho event of the resignation of the Trustees hereof

or in case there shall be no t r u s t e e hereunder G u i n n e s s Mahon Bahamas
Trust Company L i m i t e d or its successors shall become substituted
Trustees hereunder
(f) Upon t h e r e s i g n a t i o n or removal of the Trustees as

hereinbefore provided the Trustees shall be e n t i t l e d to receive
reimbursement out of the Trust Fund f o r all expenses incurred by them
in connection with the Settlement of the account of the Trustees
(g) On e v e r y c h a n g e in the t r u s t e e s h i p a memorandum shall

be endorsed on or p e r m a n e n t l y affixed to this Settlement stating the
names of the Trustees for the time Deing and s h a l l o e s i g n e d uy t h e
persons s o named and a u t h e n t i c a t e d by a n o t a r y or n o t a r i e s puolic and
any p e r s o n dealing with the Trust shall oe e n t i t l e d to rely upon any *
s u c h memorandum (or the latest of s u c h memoranda if more t h a n one) as
sufficient evidence that t h e p e r s o n s named t h e r e i n are the fully
constituted Trustees for the time oeing of t h i s .-.Sett 1 e m e n t ,
r-
f ^
\ • •»
4k
Any s u b s t i t u t e d Trustees of this Settlement shall
have a l l t h e powers conferred upon t h e T r u s t e e s by law and these
presents and any and a l l banket oi*okoj'» u o w l n o o t . o r o t h e r depositories
custodians of the Trust Fund s h a l l be a u t h o r i s e d to accept
instructions from t h e said substituted Trustees as to the
dispositions thereof
9. TUB T r u s t e o s s h a l l provide for the safekoeping of a l l documents

of title and s e c u r i t i e s t h e suDject o f t h i s Settlement a n d may a t the
expense of t h e Trust Fund ( w h i c h o x p o n s e may i n c l u d e a n y c h a r g e s for
the safe custody of securities and t h e c o l l e c t i o n and remittance
of income) deposit the same i n t h e c u s t o d y o f a n y o a n k o a n k i n g company
corporate trustee or stockbroker in any p a r t of t h o world t h a t under-
takes the safe c u s t o d y of s e c u r i t i e s as part of its business taut so
that the Trustees shall hot bo i n a n y w i s e r e s p o n s i b l e for the mis-
application of t h e same o r any of them by s u c h b a n k b a n k i n g company
corporate trustee or stockDroker or for any l o s s w h i c h may b e
occasioned thereby
10. __ IN t h o e v e n t o f any income p r o o a t e ostate or other duties

fees or t a x e s b e c o m i n g p a y a o l e i n t h e Cayman I s l a n d s or elsewhere in
respect of t h e T r u s t Fund or any p a r t thereof on t h e d e a t h of the
Settlor or of any B e n e f i c i a r y o r o t h e r w i s e t h e T r u s t e e s may a t their
discretion pay a l l or any p a r t of such d u t i e s fees and t a x e s out of
the Trust Fund w i t h o u t recourso against any B e n e f i c i a r y or r e f u s e to pay
the same o r any p a r t thereof unless indemnified and t o d e t e r m i n e the
t i m e and manner of s u c h payment i f any »
11. NO b o n d s h a l l be r e q u i r e d of t h e T r u s t e e s h e r e i n named
(whether original or s u b s t i t u t e d ) or if a bond s h o u l d be r e q u i r e d by
law t o t h e extent that a w a i v e r by t h e S e t t l o r is effective no surety
shall be required on s u c h a oond
12. Til I S T r u s t shall be i r r e v o c a b l e and t h e S e t t l o r expressly

waives a l l right and power w h e t h e r alone or in conjunction with any
other person to alter amend o r r e v o k e t h i s Settlement i n whole or in
part or a s t o any of its terms
r-
f"1
®
11. _ THE T r u s t e e s shall not be p e r s o n a l l y liable on c o n t r a c t made
by them i n the administration of tho T r u s t and p e r s o n s entering into
contract with the Trustees shall look s o l e l y to the Trust Fund
l't. WITHOUT p r e j u d i c e to the right under the general law of the

Trustees to refuse disclosure of any document, i t is hereby declared
that the Trustees shall not be bound t o d i s c l o s e to any p e r s o n any
of the following documents t h a t is to say:- '
(1) Any d o c u m e n t d i s c l o s i n g any d e l i b e r a t i o n s of the

Trustees ( o r any of the Trustees) as t o t h e manner i n which the.
Trustees should exercise any power o r any d i s c r e t i o n conferred upon
i' •i
the Trustees by t h i s Settlement or d i s c l o s i n g t h e r.nasons for any
particular exercise of any such power or any such d i s c r e t i o n or the
material upon which such reasons shall or might have been based
(2) Any o t h e r document r e l a t i n g to the exercise or proposed

exercise of any power or any d i s c r e t i o n conferred on t h e T r u s t e e s oy
this Settlement (not- b e i n g legal advice obtained oy t h e T r u s t e e s at
the cost of the trust estate)
THFTT T H E
TRUSTEES MAY PERMIT ANY
Beneficiary personally to inspect any copy of this, Settlement or any
documents r e l a t i n g to the Trust at the principal office of any
/""""V corporate trustee hereof out s h a l l not be bound t o giVe"any further
information to any B e n e f i c i a r y relating to the affairs of the Trust
or to permit any Beneficiary t o make a n y - o o p i e s of any documents
relating to the Trust *-••»•
15. THIS s e t t l e m e n t i s made u n d e r the l a w s o f t h e Cayman Islands

and t h e r i g h t s of all parties and t h e c o n s t r u c t i o n and e f f e c t of each and
every provision hereof shall oe s u b j e c t to the exclusive jurisdiction
of and c o n s t r u e d only according to the laws of t h e Cayman I s l a n d s which
shall be t h e forum for the administration of t h i s Trust
PROVIDED h o w e v e r that t h e T r u s t e e s may f r o m time t o time during the
Accumulation Period by deed d e c l a r e that this Trust and t h e rights
of all parties and t h e c o n s t r u c t i o n and e f f e c t of the provisions hereof
shall from the date of such d e c l a r a t i o n be s u b j e c t to the exclusive
jurisdiction of and c o n s t r u e d only according to t h e laws of some other
jurisdiction (other t h a n t h e Cayman I s l a n d s ) i n w h i c h o n e o r more..,-
r
of t h e T r u s t e e s t h e n s e r v i n g i n o f f i c e i n r e s i d e n t and t h a t the
forum f o r t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i o n of t h i s T r u s t s h a l l t h e n c e f o r t h be such
other jurisdiction PROVIDED f u r t h e r t h a t t h e T r u s t e e s may n o t declare
t h a t t h i s T r u s t a n d t h e r i g h t of a l l p a r t i e s a n d t h e construction
and e f f e c t of t h e p r o v i s i o n s hereof s h a l l be s u b j e c t t o t h e Jurisdiction
o f and c o n s t r u e d a c c o r d i n g t o t h e l a w s o f a J u r i s d i c t i o n w h i c h w o u l d •
c a u s e a m a t e r i a l c h a n g e i n t h e r i g h t s of t h e B e n e f i c i a r i e s hereunder
o r which would n o t r e c o g n i s e t h e v a l i d i t y of t h i s T r u s t i f such
n o n - r e c o g n i t i o n would r e s u l t i n t h e r e v o c a t i o n o r t e r m i n a t i o n o f the
Trust
1. ANY p e r s o n of f u l l a g e t o whom o r f o r whose b e n e f i t any c a p i t a l

o r income may b e l i a b l e t o b e a p p o i n t e d t r a n s f e r r e d p a i d o r a p p l i e d by
o r i n c o n s e q u e n c e o f an e x e r c i s e of any p o w e r o r d i s c r e t i o n vested
i n t h e T r u s t e e s o r i n a n y o t h e r p e r s o n may b y d e e d r e v o c a b l y o r
i r r e v o c a b l y d i s c l a i m h i s i n t e r e s t a s a n o b j e c t of s u c h power o r discretion
e i t h e r w h o l l y o r w i t h r e s p e c t t o any s p e c i f i e d p a r t o r s h a r e of such
c a p i t a l o r i n c o m e and t h e n s u c h power o r d i s c r e t i o n s h a l l (despite
a n y t h i n g c o n t a i n e d e l s e w h e r e i n t h i s Deed p r o t a n t o c e a s e t o b e
exercisable
IN WITNESS w h e r e o f t h e s a i d J o h n Henry G u i n n e s s h a s s e t h i s h a n d and '

s e a l a n d t h e Common S e a l of G u i n n e s s Mahon Cayman T r u s t Limited
h a s been h e r e u n t o affixed t h e d a y and y e a r f i r s t above w r i t t e n .
THE^PI ^ s c h e d u l e
. One h u n d r e d p o u n d s sterling(£!00.00)
r*
t -
THE SECOND SCHEDULE
1. The S e t t l o r nsure Road

XMSGKBIOCIK^^ I r e l a n d and h i s w i f e o r widow
and i s s u e ( o f w h a t e v e r d e g r e e ) h i s p a r e n t s and t h e p a r e n t s o f
h i s ' wife h i s b r o t h e r s and s i s t e r s and t h e i r i s s u e ( o f whatever
d e g r e e } and t h e b r o t h e r s and s i s t e r s of h i s w i f e and t h e i r issue
(of whatever degree) l
JOCAL INVESTMENTS LIMITED o f George Towxw' Grand Cayman

2.
SIGNED SEALED AND DELIVERED UMA

j i xhAavroR.
b y t h e above-named
i n t h e p r e s e n c e of:~
'sec***
THE COMMONWEAL OF GUINNESS MAHON
CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED HAS BEEN
HEREUNTO AFFIXED IN THE PRESENCE
OF!-
Appendix XV (53) Mr Frank Hall
Frank Hall.
a) Letter of 13 January 1982 - Mr John Collins to Pieter Totte.
b) Letter of 15 January 1982 - GMCT to Mr JD Traynor.
c) Guinness and Mahon guarantee of 4 June 1982 to Midland Bank pic.
d) GMCT inter-office memo of 8 November 1982 - Mr John Collins to JD

Traynor.
i -•-"h 1932
Dear Piatsr,
RE: SEKTIKEL SECURITY LTD.
Fran'', lias a s k e d me Co i.u'ite t o you t o c o n f i r m h i s interest-

i n r.he a b o v e pro j e c t .
As I u n d e r s t a n d i t , we a r e t o p r o v i d e a bank g u a r a n t e e t o
t h « above c o n n n n v ' s b a n k e r s t o c o v e r ho^-rov:n'.'s and i n t e r e s t
up to a maximum '£?"gure of £ 3 5 , 0 0 0 . T h i s rutar-inCcs v.-: 11 7••n'-.ably
come frora o u r D u b l i n p a r e n t company, G u i n n e s s & Mahon L t d . For
t h i s a u a r a n t e e we u n d e r s t a n d v?e a r e t o r e c e i v e t v e n f - y - f i v c
p e r c e n t o r t h e i s s u e d c a p i t a l of S e n t i n e l S e c u r i t y L t d . This
s t o c k c a n be i s s u e d i n t h e name of Beech R e n l t y Company L i - ' ' : e d
a n d f o r w a r d e d co u s h e r e . Beech H e a l t v Company £frfjr«'i i s
a Cayman company w h i c h we manage and t h e o f f i c e r s am-iirec-ors
rtvo . a s f o l l o w s :
J o h n A. C o l l i n s - Director
J o h n A. F u r s e - Director
D e l r o s e M. W i l l i a m s - Director/Secretary
F r a n k m e n t i o n e d , t h a t h e would r e q u i r e t h e n o r m a l m i n o r i t y s h a r e -
h o l d e r s a f e g u a r d s b u t t h e s e c o u l d be embodied i n a s e n a r a t ?
a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f and Beech R e s l c v Germany Lir"fce'.i.
I p r e s u m e you a r e t h e owner of t h e o t h e r 75%. 1 think
h a s i n mind t h e u s u a l t y p e of a r r a n g e m e n t s w h e r e b y , l o r e x a m p l e ,
y o u a g r e e t h a t a l l y o u r and a s s o c i a t e d c o m p a n i e s t r a n s a c t i o n s
w i t h S e n t i n e l w i l l be a t arms l e n g t h and any s a l a r y e t c . you
w i s h t o draw w i l l he a g r e e d b e f o r e h a n d .
/cont'd
13th January, 19H2
I would riot think at this stage that either of you will be

interested in dividends and perhaps dividend policy should
be reflected in the agreement. Frank would be hoping eventually
to realise any profits by sale of shares at a capital profit.
Frank is sending me down his thoughts on this agreement but
meantime perhaps you would let me have yours.
As regards the guarantee, I know our Dublin office would prefer
to have this on an annual basis subject to review and renewal
every twelve months.
Frank says" you are looking well and prospering and the house
is coming along. Delighted to hear it.
Love to and best wishes to you both. See you larer in
the year.
Yours,"
cc: Mr. rârk Mall
r^
GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
A Mumb«r of ihu Guinn«ss Mahon Mirrch.mt Banking Group
T.;!ephunc No 9 4f>53 J P 0 Box 8S7
30j Grand C.iym.,r-
Tele*
Cabli." Address Gumn-ss> Eriush VV.--.1 Indies
15th January, 1982
your ref
our ref JAC: ee
Mr. J. D. Traynor
Guinness & Mahon Ltd.
17 College Green
Dublin 2
IRELAND
Dear Des
I enclose a copy of my letter to from which you will note

I may be looking for a bank guarantee from yourself for £35,000 to cover
Frank Hall's latest investment. are
personal friends of ours and has been very successful in his ventures,
so Frank may have picked the right vehicle this time.
I will advise you when confirms he is going ahead and the names
of his bankers etc.
Kind regards,
enc 1
DATED 4th Jure 19 6?
Guiness <& V.aiion Li::.i~e.
To
Guarantee
RE: Sentinal Vehicles Li ited
55,000.CO
T o M i d l a n d B a n K pic
1. 3tl consideration of Midland Bank pic (hereinafter called "the Bank") making
or continuing advances or otherwise giving credit or affording banking facilities
for as long as the Bank may think fit to
ULs.r £I T jUlUs*. .
' I
(hereinafter called" the Principal") tDe I Ma d.
\)zvzby agree to pay and satisfy to the Bank on demand all and every the sum
and sums of money which are now or shall at any time be owing to the Bank
anywhere on any account whatsoever whether from -the Principal solely or from the
Principal jointly with any other person or persons Company or Companies or from
any firm in which the Principal may be a partner including the amount of notes or
bills discounted or paid and other loans credits or advances made to or for the
accommodation or at the request either of the Principal solely or jointly or of any
such firm as aforesaid and all moneys for which the Principal may be liable as
surety or in any other way whatsoever together with in all the cases aforesaid all
interest discount and other Bankers' charges including legal charges occasioned by
or incident to this or any other security held by or offered to the Bank for the same
indebtedness or by or to the enforcement of any such security provided always that
the total liability ultimately enforceable against us und,er this guarantee shall not
exceed the sum of rnl ^ s ^ A
pounds together with interest thereon at the rate of two per cent, per annum_above
the published Base Rate of the Bank for the time being_provided tUff such rate
at
plus the two per cent, be equal other times at
thejute^ the date of demand by the Bank upon us
2. Guarantee shall not be considered as satisfied by any intermediate

payment or satisfaction of the whole or any part of any sum or sums of money
owing as aforesaid but shall be a continuing security and shall extend to cover any
sum or sums of money which shall for the time being constitute the balance due
from the Principal to the Bank upon any such account as hereinbefore mentioned
3. QEfyti Guarantee shall be binding as a continuing security on lis until the

expiration of three calendar months after we shall have given to the Bank notice
in writing to discontinue and determine the same
4. 3fn the event of this Guarantee ceasing from any cause whatsoever to be
binding as a continuing security on us the Bank shall be at liberty without thereby
affecting their rights hereunder to open a fresh account or accounts and to continue
any then existing account with the Principal and no moneys paid from time to time
into any such account or accounts by or on behalf of the Principal and subsequently
drawn out by the Principal shall on settlement of any claim in respect of this
Guarantee be appropriated towards or have the effect of payment of any part of
the moneys due from the Principal at the time of this Guarantee ceasing to be so
binding as a continuing security or of the interest thereon unless the person or
persons paying in such moneys shall at the time in writing direct the Bank specially
to appropriate the same to that purpose
5. !clnP admission or acknowledgment in writing by the Principal or by any~

person authorised by the Principal of the amount of indebtedness of the Principal
• •
to the Bank and any judgment recovered by the Bank against the Principal in
respect of such indebtedness shall be binding and conclusive on and against us in
all Courts of Law and elsewhere
6. Clje Bank shall be at liberty without thereby affecting their rights against
us hereunder at any time to determine enlarge or vary any credit to the Principal
to vary exchange abstain from perfecting or release any other securities held or to
be held by the Bank for or on account of the moneys intended to be hereby secured
or any part thereof to renew bills and promissory notes in any manner and to
compound with give time for payment to accept compositions (rom and make any
other arrangements with the Principal or any obligants on bills notes or other
securities held or to be held by the Bank for and on behalf of the Principal
7. tEf)l£ Guarantee shall be in addition to and shall not be in any way prejudiced
or affected by any collateral or other security now or hereafter held by the Bank for
all or any part of the moneys hereby guaranteed nor shall such collateral or other
security or any lien to which the Bank may be otherwise entitled or the liability of
any person or persons not parties hereto for all or any part of the moneys hereby
secured be in anywise prejudiced or affected by this present Guarantee And the
Bank shall have full power at their discretion to give time for payment to or make
any other arrangement with any such other person or persons without prejudice to
this present Guarantee or any liability hereunder And all moneys received by the
Bank from us or the Principal or any person or persons Company or Companies
liable to pay the same may be applied by the Bank to any account or item of account
or to any transaction to which the same may be applicable
8. imtljOUglj our ultimate liability hereunder cannot exceed the limit herein-
before mentioned yet this present Guarantee shall be construed and take effect as a
guarantee of the whole and every part of the principal moneys and interest owing
and to become owing as aforesaid and accordingly we are not to be entitled as
against the Bank to any right of proof in the liquidation of the Principal or other
right of a surety discharging his liability in respect of the principal debt unless and
until the whole of such principal moneys and interest shall have first been completely
discharged and satisfied And further for the purpose of enabling the Bank to sue the
Principal or prove in its liquidation for the whole of the moneys owing as aforesaid
or to preserve intact the liability of any other party the Bank may at any time place
and keep for such time as they may think prudent any moneys received recovered or
realised hereunder to and at a separate or suspense account to the credit either of
us or of such other person or persons or transaction if any as they shall think fit
without any intermediate obligation on the part of the Bank to apply the same or
any part thereof in or towards the discharge of the moneys owing as aforesaid or
any intermediate right on our part to sue the Principal or prove in its liquidation
in competition with or so as to diminish any dividend or other advantage that
would or might come to the Bank or to treat the liability of the Principal as
diminished
9. B'c have not taken in respect of the liability hereby undertaken by us on behalf
of the Principal and we will not take from the Principal either directly or indirectly
without the consent of the Bank any promissory note bill of exchange mortgage-
charge or other counter-security whether merely persona! or involving a charge on
any property whatsoever of the Principal whereby wc or any person claiming
through us by endorsement assignment or otherwise would or might on the
' • • . • • ' ' • >• . r , i. . n ..,! fi,.v
to the Bank for the fulfilment of our obligations hereunder and shall be forthwith
deposited by us with them for that purpose
10. 3hl addition to all rights of set off conferred by law and without prejudice
to any lien any moneys now or hereafter standing to our credit with the Bank
whether on current or other account shall at the discretion of the Bank be liable
to be set off against our liabilities hereunder
«
11. 0m> moneys shall nonetheless be deemed to be so owing by the Principal

notwithstanding any defect informality or insufficiency in the borrowing powers of
the Principal or in the exercise thereof which might be a defence as between the
Principal and the Bank
12. Wilts Guarantee shall be in addition to and not in substitution for any
other Guarantee for the Principal given by us to the Bank
13. ii'c shall have no liability under this Guarantee in respect of moneys owing
to the Bank by the Principal being moneys applied or utilised by the Principal either
for any purchase or subscription of our shares (or those of any holding company of
ours) or by way of financial assistance direct or indirect for the purpose of or in
connection with any such purchase or subscription
14. expression "the Bank" wherever used herein includes and extends to
their successors and assigns
15. This Guarantee shall be read and construed in accordance with Englis
3n Witness whereof one Director of Guineas and Mahon Limited
duly authorised in this behalf (as the Secretary or another Director hereof
hereby certifies by his signature hereto) by a Resolution passed by its Board
of Directors on or before the date hereof has hereunto set his hand this p 0 urth
day of June One thousand nine hundred and Eighty Two
For and on behalf of Guir.ess & Mahon Limit-d
Director
director or
> ) T £Secretary
G U I N N E S S M A H O N CAYMAN T R U S T LIMITED
INTER-OFFICE MEMORANDUM
TO: J.D.T. FROM: J.A.C.
DATE: 8th November, 1982
^ SUBJECT: FRANK HALL/BEECH
I attach letter to re Debenture financing of Sentinel Vehicles

Ltd. At the moment G & M Dublin have guaranteed Midland Bank £35,000 against
our counter guarantee.
What we would like to do now is that G & M pay the £35,000 to Midland for A/C
Sentinel for release of guarantee and remit a further £20,000 to the company's
lawyers trust account for Sentinel, and receive back from Sentinel a Debenture
for £75,000. We or Frank have already paid £20,000.
We will forward to you cash as backing deposit £50,000 and you will treat
previous £20,000 as remitted through you to obtain total backing deposit of
£75,000.
Turn between loan and deposit we have told Frank will be 17«.
f I f you approve I will have Mike S. arrange with Pat 0'Dwyer.
I mentioned this proposition to London, Robin Faber, when I was there but
that was on basis of guarantee and loan rather than back to back I think.
Prefer deal Dublin as I think particularly initially there may be delays

in payment. I have told Frank don't expect you to keep chasing the interest
payments.
Confirm we will make arrangements for interest to be paid quarterly and

Appendix XV (54) Mr Charles J Haughey
X. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Charles J Haughey.
a) Extract of transcript of evidence given by Mr Conor Haughey to the

Inspectors on 19 July 2001.
b) Letter of 17 November 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
c) Letter of 14 September 1992 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.
d) Extract of Moriarty Tribunal of Inquiry dated 22 September 2000 -

evidence of Charles Haughey.
e) Extract of Moriarty Tribunal of Inquiry dated 29 September 2000 -

evidence of Charles Haughey.
f) Letter of 6 September 2001 - Ivor Fitzpatrick & Co Solicitors to the

Solicitor to the Inspectors.
2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Charles Haughey.
a) Letter of 13 December 2001 - Ivor Fitzpatrick & Co Solicitors to the

Solicitor to the Inspectors.
Appendix XV (54) (l)(a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. CONOR HAPGHBY
UNDER OATH
ON THURSDAY, 19TH JULY 2001

accurate transcript of iny
1 18th November 1992 and debited to the Hamilton Ross
2 deutschemark call deposit account 04/39231/81.
3 I...(INTERJECTION).
4 58 Q. If we turn up page 25 perhaps we can see that
5 letter (Same Handed) (Exhibit 6)?
6 A. Yes, this letter was sent to me by the Tribunal.
7 59 Q. Yes. Just for the record it is a letter from
8 "Ansbacher" of the 17th November 1992 to Irish
9 Intercontinental Bank saying:
10
11 "Could you please arrange to let
me have for collection an Irish
12 Pounds cheque for Ir£15,000 payable
to Conor Haughey and debit the cost
13 to Hamilton Ross deutschemark Deposit
Account 04/39231/81."
14
15
16 So, you did get that £15,000?
17 A. Yes. As I say at the time I was building my house
18 and just in November 1992 I was just about
19 completing it, we had moved in, my father gave me
20 some financial assistance for building my house.
21 Now, where I can't exactly remember this particular
22 cheque it may have been part of that.
23 60 Q. So, your belief is that this cheque came via your
24 father?
25 A. Yes.
26 61 Q. I mean could you be a little more explicit about
27 the circumstances? You know indicate when you
28 knew you were going to get it and how the cheque
29 came to you?
1 A. Well, I have actually checked with my bank, Bank of
2 Ireland in Malahide and there is no record of
3 any deposit of that size around that time. So,
4 that's why I can't say 100% certainly that's what it
5 is but that is my belief: I have no exact
6 recollection of the particular cheque.
7 62 Q. I mean let us suppose for a moment that you did
8 receive the cheque and if you have not lodged it in
9 your bank account, as one might expect, might you
10 have endorsed it on to a builder or something of
11 that sort?
12 A. Possibly.
13 63 Q. I mean can you remember the circumstances? Did
14 you do that when you were building your house?
15 I mean were there different ways of paying your
16 builder or suppliers?
17 A. Yes, possibly, possibly. As I say I can't
18 actually remember the details of this particular
19 cheque (indicating) (Exhibit 6) but I presume that's
20 what it was.
21 64 Q. Do you accept you got the cheque?
22 A. I can only presume I did.
23 65 Q. When the cheque came how would it have come to you?
24 A. Again, I don't know. Possibly I picked it up in
25 IIB. Possibly my father gave it to me. Possibly
26 my father's secretary gave it to me. I don't -
27 I honestly don't remember.
28 66 Q. I see. You will notice from this letter (Exhibit 6)
29 that it has been debited or charged to an account
L
2 A. Yes.
3 67 Q. Hamilton Ross was one of the accounts associated
4 with "Ansbacher". You may be familiar with that
5 from the individual?
6 A. I have heard of it. I have heard it mentioned but I
7 have no idea what it is.
8 68 Q. You will see that this particular account is
/•s 9 denominated in deutschemark?
10 A. Yes.
11 69 Q. In German currency?
12 A. Yes.
13 70 Q. And it is account 04/39231/81?
14 A. Yes.
15 71 Q. So that effectively it would be appear you
16 received this cash from an "Ansbacher" account?
17 A. It would appear so.
18 72 Q. Is this your "Ansbacher" account?
y-v 19 A. No.
20 73 Q. Then whose account is it?
22 74 Q. You have no idea at all?
23 A. No.
24 75 Q. About this?
25 A. No.
26 76 Q. None whatsoever?
27 A. None whatsoever.
28 77 Q. Can we please then turn to page 28 (Same Handed)
29 (Exhibit 7)?
1 A. Thank you.
2 78 Q. This is an another letter from "Ansbacher" of
| 3 the 14th September 1992. Again, it is to Irish
i
4 Intercontinental Bank saying:
5
I
i 6 "Could you please arrange to let
me have for collection an Irish
7 Pounds cheque for Ir£l0,000 payable
to Conor Haughey and debit the
8 sterling cost to 'Ansbacher'
s Limited account no. 02/01087/81."
9
10
11 This is September 1992. Do you recall receiving
12 this money, Mr. Haughey?
13 A. I don't. This is the first time I have seen this
14 particular letter (indicating) (Exhibit 7).
15 September 1992? I don't offhand but I will check in
16 my — I could check my bank account but —
17 79 Q. It would be useful I think if you checked your
18 bank account? .
19 A. Yes.
20 80 Q. And if it were to be the case that this cheque
21 did not show up in your bank account what we
22 might be interested to know is why should those
23 two cheques not show, if that is the case why
24 should both those two cheques not show up, in
25 your bank account?
26 A. Yes. As I say this was also the time I was
27 building my house and I can only presume it was
28 a gift from my father to help me with the building
29 of my house.
E V ^ V
Ansbacher Limited
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands, British West Indies
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Telephone: (809) 949-8655 Telex: CP 4305
Dublin 2. Facsimile (809) 949-7946 (809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035
17th November, 1992.

Corporate Services,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.
(t
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to let me have for collection -
tomorrow morning Wednesday 18th if possible - an Irish Pounds
cheque for IRE15,000.00 payable to Conor Haughey and debit the
cost to Hamilton Ross Deutsche Mark Call Deposit: Amount
Acpc
No.04/39231/81. t p
Yours sincerely,
0
-JLfLsO^ -
For HAMILTON ROSS CO. LTD.
sfi
jfH"
JDT/AJW ©
A MEMBER OF THE ANSBACHER INTERNATIONAL TRUST CROUP OF COMPANIES WITH OFFICES
ALSO LOCATED « TOE BAHAMAS. BRITISH VIRGINISUHDS.
4zosz
GUERNSEY, MONACO AND SWITZERLAND
Ekviuis X
Assbacber Limited
P.O. Box IS7, (Stand Caynaa. Cayum Ulawh, Slid* W m lndi«
Please reply to:
42 FUzwflliam Square, T«I«pbon* (809) 949-1453 Tates: CP 4305
Dublin 2: FtesfaaOft (109) 949-7946 (109) 949-S2CT
Td: 765144/763065
F a r 612035
14th September, 1992.

Bank limited,
91 Merrion Square,
pUBIilW 2.
I
Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to lat ae have for collection an
Xrish Rounds cbaque for XRS10,000.00 payable to Conor Haughey
and debit the Sterling cost to Ansbacher Limited Account
No.02/01087/81.
Yours sincerely,
^ J "
P«r ANSBACHER LIMXTBD
»
JDT/AJW
TRIBUNAL OF INQUIRY
(PAYMENTS TO MESSRS CHARLES HAUGHEY AND MICHAEL LOWKY)
A p p o i n t e d b y i n s t r u m e n t o f An T a o i s a a e h d a t e d
2 6 t h d a y o f S e p t e n b e r 1997
pursuant to the
T r i b u n a l s o f I n q u i r y ( E v i d e n c e ) A c t s 1921 a n d 1979
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS HELD IN DUBLIN CASTLE

BEFORE MR. JUSTICE MICHAEL MORIARTY (CHAIRMAN) ,
ON BRXDMT, 31ST OCTOBER 1997, AND FOLLCMINg DAYS:
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS ON FRIDAY, 22ND SEPTEMBER 2 0 0 0 ;
I hereby certify the following

to be a true and accurate
transcript of my shorthand
notes in the above named
proceedings.
Tel 8722833
Fax...„„...8724488
After Houre.2882097
E-mail: doyleaos@iiidigo.ie
COPYRIGHT
Transcripts are the work of the shorthand
writer and they must not be photocopied
or reproduced in any manner or supplied
or loaned by an appellant to a respondent
or to any other party without written
permission of the shorthand writer.
evidence to be given. But I do not accept that it is not,
to some degree, part of counsel's function to invite a view
on particular facts or the construction that may be put on
it, but I accept that the primary thrust of the matter is
factual. However, I am not going to inhibit Mr. Coughlan
from some controlled and limited degree of inviting a view
from your client on particular matters that may be of
considerable importance.
MR. GARDINER: Thank you, Chairman.
MR. COUGHLAN: Now, Mr. Haughey, I think we were dealing

with that it is known, it is a fact, that Mr. Traynor
approached a certain number of people and asked for money
on your behalf; isn't that correct?
Yes.
And if it be found as a fact that this, the 450,000 going
into this account, did not arise by way of a loan, but was
sourced from other people, I am asking you does it not
appear to you at this stage to be likely that Mr. Traynor
solicited or asked for money on your behalf and didn't ask
for a loan?
I cannot say.
Why can't you say?
Because I have no knowledge of what Mr. Traynor may have
done or not done at that time or what his approach may have
been. It was — that was something that he did of his own
volition.
Very good. Now, this relates to Term of Reference (a),
Mr. Haughey, as to whether any payments — I'll use the
1 term payments to include benefits and matters of that
2 nature — were made to you in circumstances giving rise to
3 a reasonable inference that the motive for making the
4 payment was connected with the public office held by you or
5 had the potential to influence the discharge of such
6 office. You understand that that was why X am asking you
7 — I am not dealing at this period in the Tribunal's
8 evidence with any questions of favours or acts done or
9 anything of that nature. It's monies which may have been
10 given to you or solicited on your behalf in circumstances
11 giving rise to the inference that they are connected with
12 the holding of public office. Do you understand where I
13 am coming from in asking these questions now?
14 A. I am just thinking as you are talking to me, Mr. Coughlan,
15 that you seem to draw a conclusion that if Mr. Traynor
16 approached somebody on my behalf, it had necessarily to be
17 by way of donation, and you mentioned a few cases. I am
18 just recalling that — I think we will be coming later to
19 an incident with Mr. P V Dcyle, I think in that case, it
20 was a case of.borrowing.
21 66 Q. On the face of it, yes, that would appear to be the case on
22 the face of it. But there was evidence given by people
23 from Doyles about that, that there was never anything —
24 A. So that Mr. Traynor's approach, therefore, could be both.
25 It could be sometimes pure donation, sometimes borrowing.
26 67 Q. In the case of Mr. P V Doyle, a loan was raised in Guinness
27 and Mahon guaranteed by Mr. Doyle, effectively guaranteed
28 by Mr. Doyle. That was the way it was done there. It
29 was a loan in Guinness and Mahon. It wasn't a loan from
30 Mr. Doyle.
t
1 A. I think, in effect, it was.

2 68 Q. Well, we'll come to that in due course and how it was dealt
3 with by Mr. Traynor at the end, of course.
4
5 Now, of course, that loan was never paid back.
6 A. I am not aware of that.
7 69 Q. I see. Well, we'll come to it in due course. So if it
8 was done by way of a donation or by way of a loan, can I
9 ask you this, did you ever payback any loan of 450,000 or
10 part thereof, to your recollection?
11 A. I wouldn't pay it back. If it were to be paid back, it
12 would be paid back by Mr. Traynor on my behalf.
13 70 Q. Well, where would the money have come from to do that?
14 A. Well, I have mentioned to you already that my accountant is
15 of the opinion that there were later borrowings which might
16 have been used to repay borrowings at this point, the point
17 we are dealing with, from Guinness and Mahon.
18 71 Q. That is borrowings which took place in Cayman, isn't that
19 correct, in the sum of 400-odd-thousand pounds? And I'll
20 come to that as well. But that is speculation by your
21 accountant now, isn't that correct, looking back at the
22 situation?
23 A. Yes, but you asked me specifically was any money — was any
24 money ever paid to Guinness and Mahon arising — repaid to
25 Guinness and Mahon out of borrowings on this occasion. I
26 am only saying to you, from my own point of view, that I am
27 aware that there is that possibility. I make it no more
28 than that.
29 72 Q. We will examine that in detail in due course, in fairness
30 to you, Mr. Haughey. But on the evidence, which, of course
TRIBUNAL OF INQUIRY
(PAYMENTS TO MESSRS CHARLES HAUGHEY AMD MICHAEL LCWKY)
A p p o i n t e d b y i n s t r u n a n t o f An T a o i a e a c h d a t e d
2 6 t h d a y o f S e p t e m b e r 1997
pursuant to the
T r i b u n a l s o f I n q u i r y ( E v i d e n c e ) A c t s 1921 a n d 1979
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS HEXJD IN DUBLIN CASTLE

BEFORE MR. JUSTICE MICHAEL MORIARTY (CHAIRMAN) ,
ON FEgQAY, 31ST OCTOBER 1 9 9 7 , AND FOLLOWING DAYS:
TRANSCRIPT OF P R O H ^ I N G S ON FRIDAY, 29TH SEPTEMBER 2 0 0 0 :
COPYRIGHT
Transcripts are the work of the shorthand
writer and they must not be photocopied
or reproduced in any manner or supplied
or ioaned by an appellant to a respondent
or to any other party without written
permission of the shorthand writer.
Halpin, who was an authorised officer of the Central Bank,
and he gave evidence on day 28, the 9th July 1999.
Yes, I see that.
Now, Mr. Halpin informed the Tribunal that by letter dated
8th December 1982 addressed to the Manager Exchange
Control, you requested Exchange Control permission to
borrow on behalf of Abbeville Stud, the Sterling equivalent
of 400,000 from Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited.
Interest was expressed to be payable half yearly at 1% over
the cost of three month funds and full repayment of
principal was due on the 31st January 1985.
•
So if I could just ask you to deal with document number 112

at that divider, please, and it is a letter — the address
is Abbeville Stud, Abbeville, Kinsealy, County Dublin.
It's addressed to the Manager Exchange Control, Central
Bank of Ireland, Dublin 2. It reads — 8th December
1982.
"Dear sir, I wish to make application on behalf of

Abbeville Stud for permission to borrow Sterling. The
details are as follows:
"1. The bank: Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited, PO

box, 887, Grand Cayman, British West Indies.
"2. The amount: The Sterling equivalent of 400,000

Irish.
"3. The purpose: Primarily development and commercial
MORIARTY TRIBUNAL ~ MMK/AP

development of the stud.
"4. Draw-down in amounts of 100,000 between the 1st

January 1983 and the 31st January 1983.
"5. Repayment: Full amount on the 31st January 1985.
"6. Interest: Interest payable half-yearly will be at 1%

over the cost of the three-month funds.
"7. Security: Joint and several guarantees of C J

Haughey and Maureen Haughey."
»
And over the page:

»
"The title deeds of stud will be deposited with Mars

Nominees Limited, 17, College Green, on behalf of Guinness
Mahon Cayman Trust Limited and an undertaking given to
formalise the security should this be required.
"I am enclosing herewith an extra copy of this letter for

your convenience.
"Yours faithfully, Charles J Haughey."
And would you agree that was signed by you, Mr. Haughey?
Yes.
Now, do you remember, first of all, making an application
to the Central Bank for exchange control approval?
I am not sure that I do, but now that I see this letter
1 here in front of me, I accept that that's my letter and
2 that I made that application.
3 135 Q. Now, do you remember looking for 400,000 or the equivalent
4 in Sterling?
5 A. No. I would be very clear that that letter would be
6 drafted by Mr. Traynor and given to me to sign.
7 136 Q. Yes, I accept that it must have been drafted by somebody
8 who was familiar in how to put an application before the
9 Central Bank the way it's set out. But did you have any
10 discussion or can you remember having any discussion with
11 Mr. Traynor about applying to the Central Bank for Exchange
12 Control approval?
13 A. I don't remember any discussion, but I would, if you put it
14 to me, I will accept that I must have had — I must have
15 had a discussion with Mr. Traynor about it.
16 137 Q. Perhaps I can assist you in that Mr. Halpin, in his
17 evidence, said that Mr. Des Traynor personally delivered
18 your letter in duplicate to Mr. Bernard Breen who was then
19 the General Manager of the bank. Would you remember that
20 or —
21 A. No. But as I say, I would be fairly definite, looking
22 back, that the procedure would have been that Des Traynor
23 would have drafted the letter, brought it out to me to
24 sign, perhaps, or arranged for me to sign it, and then he
25 would have taken it from there. He would have handled the
26 transaction from then on.
27 138 Q. Now, at the time this application was made, I think you
28 were still Taoiseach?
29 A. Well, it was the time of in and out, but if you say I was
30 Taoiseach, I'll accept that.
1 A. No, I don't remember it.
2 158 Q. Now, the next matter in the documents is document number
3 114, and it's a letter from Mr. Traynor to Mr. Donovan at
4 the Central Bank and it's dated the 22nd January 1985, and
5 it reads:
6
7 "Dear Michael, attached hereto are copies of the following:
8
9 "1. Letters of the 8th December 1982 from C J Haughey to
10 the Central Bank.
11
12 "2. Letter of the 9th December from Bernard to me.
13
14 "3. Two copies of John Furze letter of the 2nd January
15 1985.
16
17 "I will be grateful if, at your convenience, you could let

18 me have approval and also approval for the payment of
19 interest of 68,000 to bring the facility to the revised
20 figure.
21
22 "Yours sincerely, J D Traynor."
23
24 And if you go to the next document, document 115, it's a
25 letter from Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust and it's signed by
26 Mr. John Furze, Managing Director, and it's dated 22nd
27 January 1985, and it's addressed to you, at Abbeville Stud,
28 Abbeville, Kinsealy, County Dublin, Ireland. It reads:
29
30 "Dear sir, re loan extension - 2 years - Sterling
£350,000. We wish to refer to our recent telephone
discussion in connection with the extension of present
facility. We confirm that we are prepared to extend
350,000 Sterling on the following terms and conditions.
"Amount: Sterling £350,000. Repayment in full by the

31st December 1984.
"Interest: Payable quarterly at 1% over the cost of

90-day funds.
"Security: We will continue to retain the joint and

several guarantee of Charles J Haughey and Maureen Haughey.
These guarantees will continue to be supported by the title
deeds presently held.
"We should be grateful if you would:
"1. Have a copy of this facility letter signed by both

yourself and your wife.
"2. Arrange for the Central Bank of Ireland approval to

be stamped on the copy of this letter.
"Having had the above documentation completed, we should be

grateful if you would hand them to Des Traynor for onward
transmission to us.
"Yours faithfully, John A Furze."

1 There then is on this particular document, a signature,
2 Charles J Haughey and Maureen Haughey. Can we take it
3 that that is yours and Mrs. Haughey's signature?
4 A. Yes.
5 159 Q. And then there is stamped the approval of the Central Bank
6 on the document.
7 A. Yes.
8 160 Q. Now, you must have signed that particular document, isn't
9 that correct, yourself and Mrs. Haughey?
10 A. I did, yes.
11 161 Q. And it was addressed to you at Abbeville; isn't that
12 correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 162 Q. And can we take it it must have arrived at Abbeville?
15 A. I beg your pardon?
16 163 Q. It must have arrived at Abbeville.
17 A. Oh yes, I suppose so, yes. Well, there is a possibility
18 that he may have, Mr. Furze, may have made it out to me,
19 sent it to Des Traynor, who may have passed it on to me,
20 but —
21 164 Q. Well, do you remember receiving it? This was effectively
22 a rolling over of the loan, extending the period of the
23 loan.
24 A. Yes.
25 165 Q. Do you remember receiving it?
26 A. Well, I must, because I signed it.
27 166 Q. And do you remember that you were dealing with the Managing
28 Director, that you must have had a telephone conversation
29 with a Mr. Furze, who was the banking Director of Guinness
30 Mahon Cayman Trust?
f
2 "Permission is hereby granted for the extension to the 31st

3 December 1988 of Sterling £350,000 borrowing by Mr. C J
4 Haughey from Mr. Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust. As detailed
5 in Mr. John Furze's letter ... permission is also granted
6 for the payment of Sterling £95,613.58 in respect of
7 interest on the borrowings to the 31st December 1986.
8
9 "Yours sincerely, Mr. Halpin," on behalf of the Central

10 Bank."
11
12 Now, those are the documents available to the Tribunal in

13 respect of what I would describe as the Cayman loan. Now,
14 I think you have what appears to be the Cayman loan — I
15 think you have now furnished to the Tribunal a consent or
16 an authorization to allow the Tribunal to take this matter
17 up on the Cayman side; isn't that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 191 Q. Now, do you yourself ever remember Mr. Traynor telling you
20 that the money had come in from Cayman, that it had been
21 drawn-down?
22 A. I think I have already told you no.
23 192 Q. No, do you yourself ever remember Mr. Traynor ever telling
24 you that such a loan was ever paid back?
25 A. Pardon?
26 193 Q. Ever paid back, to the best of your knowledge?
27 A. No.
28 194 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, there was no demand ever
29 made on you for the repayment of this loan, was there?
30 A. No, you mean by —
1 195 Q. By Cayman or anyone here?
2 A. No.
3 196 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, your title deeds for
4 Abbeville and the stud still remain under your control and
5 possession?
6 A. Am I definite about that, Mr. Coughlan? I am asking your
7 assistance here. We — it was suggested that they would
8 be handed to Mars Nominees Limited.
9 197 Q. Yes.
10 A. And you asked me if I did that.
11 198 Q. Yes.
12 A. And I think my reply was that I didn't.
13 199 Q. Very good.
14 A. The only thing is that I mightn't necessarily have given
15 them to Mars Nominees Limited. If it did arise, I would
16 have given them to Mr. Traynor or perhaps — it's
17 complicated — instructed John S O'Connor & Co to —
18 200 Q. I understand that, that —
19 A. So that's —
20 201 Q. Whilst you mightn't have formally lodged them with Mars
21 Nominees, they were there if Mr. Traynor made a call upon
22 them?
23 A. I don't recall ever doing anything of that nature.
24 202 Q. Very good.
25
26 Now, Mr. Traynor had left Guinness and Mahon in 1986; isn't
27 that correct?
28 A. If that's the date, yes, I'll accept that.
29 203 Q. And the Tribunal, from its analysis of the various accounts
30 held in your name or by Mr. Traynor or accounts used by
IVOR FITZPATRICK & CO.
SOLICITORS
44 - 45 ST. STEPHEN'S GREEN, DUBLIN 2.
TELEPHONE: + 353 1 678 7000 FAX: + 353 1 678 7004 DX 53 DUBLIN.
E-MAIL: info@ivorfitzpatrick.ie website: www.ivorfitzpatrick.ie
Mary Cummins, 6th September 2001

Solicitor to the Inspectors,
Third Floor,
Trident House, Ourref : DC/LMCA AG3813
Blackrock, Your ref
Co. Dublin. Direct Fax : 661 3555
FAX 2833929
h)i7 ®
u o
Re: Our client: Mr. Charles J Haughey
Dear Sirs,
Further to your recent query in respect of this matter our client has confirmed that his
evidence to the Moriarty Tribunal can be relied upon by the inspectors as evidence in the
course of their investigation.
Yours faithfully,
Jennifer Blunden, Deirdre Courtney, Ivor Fitzpatrick, Cormac Gordon, John King, Mary-Claire MarVey, Bernard McEvoy, Michael J. O'Connor, Margaret Scully, Susan R. Stapleton.
John Burke, Karen Hkkey Dwyer, Susan Fenton, Ita Guilfoyie, Edel Kirley, Loma McAullffe,
Marqaret McGlnley, Dympna Murphy, Ortaith O'Brien, Milan Schuster.
. HI 11:47 FAX Of) IVOR FITZPATRICK ©00

SOLICITORS
44 - 45 ST. STEPHEN'S GREEN, DUBLIN 2.
TELEPHONE +353 1 678 7000 FAX: +353 I 678 7004 DX 53 DUBLIN.
E-MAIL: info@ivoifiupatrick.te website; www.ivorfitzpatiick.ie
STRICTLY PRIVATE AND 13 December 2001

CONFIDENTIAL
Mary Cummins,
Solicitor to the Inspectors, Our ref : DC_MGE1691
Third Floor, Your ref
Indent Mouse, Direct Fax : 661 3555
nkickjock,
• 'o Dublin.
By Fax: 2833929
Re: Our client: Mr Charles J Haughey
Dear Sirs,
W?; refer to your letter of the 23 rd November in relation to the above.
S »JGGESTED AMENDMENTS
i/n iVige 1 of your Preliminary Conclusions at the end of the 2 Tid paragraph we would suggest
ux Allowing be added:-
f** ••v.itence was subsequently read into the public record and forms part of the evidence
before the Tribunal"
A twin on page 1 of your Preliminary Conclusions at the end of the 3 rd paragraph the last
sentence could be>
"This conclusion was assisted by the acceptance by him that evidence given by him to the
Tribunal of Inquiry could be availed of by the Inspectors for the purposes of their inquiry
in determining Mr. Haughey '$ involvement with GMCT subsequently known as
a a? backer".
On page 2 the first sentence "has submitted " should be "agreed".
Ch\ page 2 the 3 rd paragraph "The Moriarty Tribunal" should become "No evidence has been
adduced as to whether or not the loan has ever been repaid
'. .-.;irdre Courtney, Ivor fitipatrick. Comae Goroon, John King, Mary-Claire Markey, Barnard MtEvoy, Michael J. O'Connor. Margaret
jchr-> Bui't^, Kaftn Hicksy Owyer, Susan fentori, Its Qulifoyle, Edel Kirley. Lorna McAuliffc,
Margaret McGmley. Dympna Murphy, Qrlaith O'Brien, Milan Schuster.
Hi: i 1 : 47 FAX UO IVOR FITZPATRICK ®003
On page 2 in the next paragraph we would suggest adding after "the loan documented above"
-.tie following "although this is not completely clear"
if. the next paragraph we would suggest "was at that time a person with loan account
approval from GMCT subsequently renamed Ansbacher Limited."
in the next paragraph we would suggest "having arrived at the conclusion that Mr Haughey
••• •••y person with loan account approval from GMCT subsequently renamed Ansbacher
L>niited
v .; v/ould also suggest that the paragraph should finish with the sentence "better left to the
tribunal of Inquiry" and that the remaining words in that paragraph should be deleted.
respect of the Inspectors Preliminary Conclusions we would suggest that the words should
: that "Mr Haughey was at one time a person with loan account approval from GMCT
uhsequently named Ansbacher Limited"
vV£; would also suggesr that the last two sentences are not necessary and the report should end
V iih "the inspectors base their conclusion on the evidence of Mr Haughey as outlined
-.wove
SUBMISSION
Hi .- balance of the evidence referred to does not allow for a definitive conclusion as set out in
your preliminary conclusions.
1L is clear that Mr. Conor Haughey received the two amounts from the accounts from which
iiicy were drawn. Equally if they were received by hixn they may have gone to financing his
bus Iding costs and if so they may have been give to him by his father. However in the
absence of account name details they do not conclusively support without further evidence
the conclusion that Mr. Haughey was a client of Ansbacher - particularly where "client" is
undefined.
would appear that these cheques originated through Mr. Traynor and therefore it would be
Mr Traynor who would be the "client".
we would equally add that the evidence given by Conor Haughey is not necessary to your
êlusions and cannot be relied upon to support your finding on the loan account evidence.
• >ur cheat has always categorically rejected any suggestion or conclusion that he is anything
other than a person with loan account approval from GMCT and as such has always rejected
a conclusion that he was a client of Ansbacher Limited.
VvV. await heanug from you in relation to the above.
Yours faithfully,
iVOR FITZPATRICK & CO,
I IVOR FITZPATRICK & CO.

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Record Number: 1999 /163 Cos

THE HIGH COURT

REPORT OF THE INSPECTORS

Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002

VOLUME [6]: APPENDIX X V ( 4 3 ) TO X V ( 5 4 )

© Government of Ireland 2002

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Denis Foley dated 7 April 2000.

b) Statement and related appendices of Mr Denis Foley dated 7 April 2000.

ON FRIDAY, 7TH APRIL 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. DENNIS FOLEY

Represented by: MR. TOM 0'HALLORAN

UPPER ASHE STREET

MR. D. FOLEY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

2 7TH APRIL 2000

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Foley, we will start

5 our interview then. I am

6 Declan Costello and on my right is Ms. Mackey. As

7 you know we have been appointed by The High Court

10 I should explain, as I do to other people who come

11 to interview, that this is not a Court and it is not

14 If in the course of the interview I or Ms. Mackey

15 ask you a question on which you would like to take

16 legal advice, please tell me and we will stop

17 questioning and you can talk to Mr. O'Halloran.

19 Similarly, if your solicitor wishes us to stop

20 asking questions so that he can discuss the matter

21 with you, he can indicate to us the position and we

22 will stop asking the questions.

23 MR. FOLEY: Thank you Judge.

2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Foley, we got a

5 statement from you

6 yesterday and we got the appendices this morning and

7 because we have not had time to consider all these

8 documents, as we would like, it may be necessary for

9 us to call you back at a later date?

11 2 Q. However, we will see how we can get on this morning?

13 3 Q. It may not be necessary for us to trouble you again.

14 However, I have to tell you that that is the

16 A. Yes. Right, Sir.

17 4 Q. It did occur to me, Mr. Foley, considering the

18 documents, that it might be possible to shorten this

19 whole matter of our interview with you in this way:

20 Your statement indicates the state of knowledge

24 5 Q. As I understand your statement your state of

25 knowledge has now changed considerably as a result

26 of documents that were made available to you?

27 A. At the Tribunal, that is right, Sir.

28 6 Q. I think I am correct in saying, and correct me if I

29 am wrong, that what caused a change in your,

2 to you showing that money that was in the name of

3 "Ansbacher" firstly, and then money that was in the

4 name of Hamilton Ross, which was deposited, is that

6 A. That is correct, Sir.

7 7 Q. Also it appears that there was a code given on the

8 right-hand side of the documents. I think I am

9 correct in saying Mr. Foley that it is quite clear