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Throbbing Gristle



udu'trial Culture-it is a little late, yuu knuw. Merely

to think in terms of "industrial" is, of course, to admit that a
particular phase of activity has passed into the history books.
It is not for me to judge whether the subject will constitute a
mere footnote or a weighty chapter, but the fact that a series
of different, if related, projects can be given such a generic
indicates assimilation and eventual supersession. That is not
to say that the individual ideas concerned have lost their
validity: simply that the conditions of the dialogue between
the "avant-garde" and "pop"-into which "industrial" was a
brief and vigorous intervention-have changed parameters.
Focus has shifted from "the underground" to the "mainstream": our problems are too pressing to permit the ghettoization of possible new solutions.
Mind you, if we talk of expression as disturbance, then
"industrial" was rather suited to our time's own particular
malaise. Consider Lewis Mumford:
"Between 1820 and 1900 the destruction and disorder
within great cities is like that of a battlefield, proportionate
to the very extent of their equipment and the strength of the
forces employed. In the new province of city building, one
must now keep one's eyes on the bankers, industrialists, and
the mechanical inventors. They were responsible for most of
what was good and almost all that was bad. In their own
image, they created a new type of city-that which Dickens,
in Hard Times, called Coketown. In a greater or lesser
degree, every city in the Western World was stamped with
the archetypal characteristics of Coketown. Industrialism,
the main creative force of the nineteenth century, produced
the most degraded urban environment the world had yet
seen: for even the quarters of the ruling classes were
befouled and overcrowded." ('Ibe City In History, 1961).

"The street where Gen and Cosey live is unremittingly

grim: 1850's artisan housing-dirty brick facades, gaping
wounds stretch the length of the street, broken only by a low
railway, almost mathematically. Exactly the kind of street you
can imagine Victorian murders of the cruelest, meanest kind
committed, and no one ever knowing. Cobbles, grey
sky .... " (Intro to interview with Genesis P-Orridge, taped
Nov 77, printed in Search & Destroy, April 78.) "The terrace
opposite stops short in the grey air, thick with moisture,
revealing vistas of factories, tower blocks, endless tightly
patterned semi's ... hills in the distance. Sometimes the
factories work at night-the noise can be heard in the
house, jiltering through dreams: dull, percussive, hypnotic." (Intro to interview with Cabaret Voltaire, Search &
Destroy, June 78).

In the gap caused by the failure of punk rock's apocalyptic
rhetoric, "industrial" seemed like a good idea. Punk's implicit
concentration, in its purest form, on situationi eo -the
"boredom" of everyday life, and the images that filled
fanzines and sleeve graphics-graffiti, "cut-ups of fifties
consumer goods and the council block death factories in /
South London"-had left the door open for an even more
comprehensive investi ation of ca italism's deca . In the
superheated atmosphere of London in 1977, when 1984 (if
not armageddon) appeared round every crumbling corner;
when arrays of dark glasses hid clinical paranoias; when the
fabric of English society appeared to have been unraveled, by
punk rock, into vicious threads of sectarian in-fighting, fascist
and leftist violence on the streets, and financial crises; anything seemed possible, and indeed necessary. Punk, by this
time, had not gone far enough: its style had become a pose,
window-dressing for packaging and consumption through the
usual commercial channels. Something newwas needed: what
was there?
If "industrial" was the most thorough examination yet of )
the decaying English environment, both physical and psychic, then it was also one very thorough reaction against
what "punk" rock had become-good 01' rock'n'roll. Really,
there was no option. In November 1977, three writers, Jane
Suck, Sandy Robertson and myself-as the three "punk"
correspondents on Sounds-were asked by the editor to
provide another long feature about Generic Punk Rock-or
New Wave, perhaps. We refused, forcibly.
Consulting our own overheated imaginations, we inde-pendently came I:lp with the same thing. The November 26,
1977 edition of Sounds contained the blueprint for what has
become Generic Industrial, and more besides: called "New
Musick," it contained pieces about Eno, Devo, 1beResidents,
Krajtwerk, and, archetypally, 1brobbing Gristle. Indices
were the synthetic disco of Giorgio Moroder, whose "I Feel
Love" had been a huge summer hit; the first 1brobbing
Gristle album, Second Annual Report; Devo as heard on a
live tape from the Mabuhay in San Francisco; and many
extra-musical sources, particularly William Burroughs and
cut-up theory.
As it happened, our emotional reaction, although imperfect on detail, was correct. The issue brought to light many
ideas which had been floating around the Performance Art or
Mail Art categories, which later became part of pop parlance;
the new styles promoted by the phrase "New Musick" were
always intended to be part of a full meeting of pop and what is

called, in a phrase usually denoting lack of access and

cultural impotence, "avant-garde." "The insistent pulse beat
makes them accessible to anyone who wants to listen: Tesco
Disco ....Avant-garde smokescreens can put people off
needlessly. The box is in your head .... "
Quite apart from the impact on mainstream popular
music, "New Musick" had opened Pandora's box. Out flew all
manner of ideas and mutations. In England, in 1978, these
were best exemplified by Throbbing Gristle in London, and
Cabaret Voltaire in Sheffield, who were also benefiting from
punk's protracted regionalism. These two, in particular, used
the space offered to them to develop the ideas which I, in my
purism, would prefer to call, for the sake of argument,
"industrial." These included:
1) ORGANIZATIONAL AlffONOMY. The choice to record
for their own, or "independent" labels was partly enforced,
but mainly voluntary. It was felt that the major record
companies were both tainted and unnecessary. This period
saw the rise of the "independent" network to its peak of
1980: some independent labels like Mute and Some
Bizarre-who both touch on "industrial" ideas-are still
haVing a commercial success thought impossible six years
2) ACCESS TO INFORMATION. At this time, the phrase
"Information War" -meaning that the struggle for control
was now not territorial but communicatory-came into currency. With the limited access then available, Ibrobbing
Gristle and Cabaret Voltaire extended as far as was possible
Burroughs' precepts about control into the popular mediathe former in particular, as disseminators of information and
propagandists par excellence. For example, their Industrial
News [a periodical] would contain all manner of details about
control techniques, among more conventional information
and listings. The French magazine Sordide Sentimental produced packages which, in a happy marriage of form and
content, contained outstanding examples of "industrial" and
affiliated music-like Joy Division's "Dead Souls"-allied
with detailed and illuminatory philosophical and spiritual
treatises, often written by Jean-Pierre Turmel or Yves von
Bontee. In this way, music was the key to a level of information and discussion which had not previously existed in this
arena. Taboos were being openly examined; control, in a
small sphere, challenged.
self-explanatory. Although music was the means to an end,
rather than the end in itself, there was still the necessity of

matching form to format. In this, Throbbing Gristle's Second

Annual Report (1977) with its reliance on synthesizers and
non-musical sounds, was prototypical. Punk's predilection for
amplified noise-as well as works like "Loop'" or "Sister
Ray" -was refined into a new approach to "music." This
development was taken (and is still being taken) to its fullest
extent by the profoundly disturbing and haunting work of
certain "industrial" artists, whose occasional records provide
perhaps the true soundtrack to the final quarter of the
twentieth century.
4) EXTRA-MUSICAL ELEMENTS. Much of this comes under
"Access To Information," but there is more besides. Introduction of literary elements in a thorough-as opposed to
typical pop dilettantism-manner: the full debt was made
clear only long after "Industrial" had passed, in the Final
Academy held in London in October, 1982. Another element
was the use of films and videos, simultaneous to musical
performance: this last is perhaps the most relevant, as
television becomes a far more powerful agent of control than
popular music. Both Cabaret Voltaire and Psychic Tv, to
name a couple, are producing their own television, and will
concentrate upon this area more and more.
S) SHOCK TACTICS. A time honored technique to make
sure what you have to say gets noticed. Lost in press reaction
to TG and CV's more superficial aspects (and in audience
reaction also, as on separate dates I saw both forced to stop a
performance because of audience violence against them:
true Performance Art Success!) was the industrial preceptcarried out most faithfully by the Industrial label-of
self-determination and self-control ... to name but a few.
You will, by now, have noticed that the situation has
changed. As with punk rock, many of "industrial's" preoccupations have been shown to be fact: as often, these days, art
cannot compete with "life." Many of the strands first isolated
five or six years ago have been fully unraveled, to the extent
where the term "industrial" is now obsolete and useless,
except as an example. You will hear cut-ups played freely on
the radio, in popular "scratch" and "rap" music; you will
hear groups with synthesizers at the top of the American
charts. The apocalyptic feelings of 1977 and 1978 have
burned out: what has replaced them is a grimmer determination to translate that desperation into positive action, in our
slide to the depths of decline. The context has shifted: pop is
no longer important; temporarily, television is. It is there that
the next round in the Information War is being fought.
-Jon Savage, London 1983

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Throbbing Gristle, Los Angeles 1981 (Photo: Suzan Carsonl) Previous pages: artwork/photo by Throbbing Gristle.

I n 1976, Industrial Records was fnunded by

Throbbing Gristle specifically to explore the psychological, visual and aural territory suggested by the term
"Industrial." They demonstrated that with hardly any
mnney they could produce records and~res with
outstanding graphic standards an~iant ecorded
content-from death threats to
ory noise to
vanilla-smooth Abba tributes. TG focused on the control process, fighting the information war in a general revolt against the obedience instinct. As they put it,
"We're just troublemakers, really, 'cause otherwise the
world's a very boring place to be .... "
Special interests included tortures, cults, wars, psychological techniques of persuasion, unusual murders
(especially by children and psychopaths), forensic
pathology, venereology, concentration camp behavior,
the history of uniforms and insignia, Aleister Crowley's
magick, and much more. There were also deliberate
attempts to apply the cut-up techniques of William S.
Burroughs and Brion Gysin.
June 23, 1981: Throbbing Gristle split into two
partnerships: CTI (Chris Carter and Cosey Fanni Tutti's Creative Technology Institute) and Psychic
IV/fhe Temple ofPsychick Youth founded by Genesis
P-Orridge and Peter 'Sleazy' Christopherson. Both
groups have records available.
What follows are interviews with Genesis, Cosey and
Chris summarizing the intentions, means and achievements of Throbbing Gristle, as well as some words on
Coum Transmissions, the performance art group
Genesis and Cosey directed from 1969-1976 (Sleazy
joined the last year).
We're interested in information,
we're not interested in music as such.
And we believe that the whole battlefield, if there is one in the human
situation, is about information.
R/S: When you started Industrial Records in 1976, what
did you have in mind?
GEN: It seemed inevitable, the reasons for it at the
time. There's an irony in the word "industrial"
because there's the music industry. And then there's
the joke we often used to make in interviews about
churning out records like motorcars- that sense of
industrial. And ... up till then the music had been kind
of based on the blues and slavery, and we thought it

was time to update it to at least Victorian times-you

know, the Industrial Revolution.
Rock'n'roll had been somewhere away in the sugarcane fields of the West Indies and the cottonfields of
America, so we thought it was time to try and update it
somewhat, towards the world as it is now ... meaning
then. (And it still is like that.)
And "industrial" has a very cynical ring to it. It's not
like that kind of romance of"paying your dues, man";
of being "on the road"-rock'n'roll as a -career being
worthwhile in itself, and all that shit. So it was cynical
and ironic, and also accurate. And we liked the imagery of factories- I mean, we just thought there was a
whole untapped area of imagery and noise which was
suggested when we thought of "industrial."
And then Monte Cazazza was the person who suggested the slogan "Industrial Music for Industrial Peo-

Throbbing Gristle on video. (Photo: Throbbing Gristle)

TG after last show. San Francisco. May 31. 1981. (Photo: Clay Holden)

pIe." Funny enough, one of the earliest thoughts was

"Factory Records," named after Warhol's Factory and
his idea of silkscreening painted pictures and then
signing them. But we decided that was too obvious,
and that Warhol wasn't really good enough!
That was when we were thinking around an industrial idea, so we thought: use the actual word industriaL And there's also industry, like work-putting a
lot of work into it. There's lots of nice connotationsit's far better than Factory! A factory's an empty building until people are in it-it's not quite as interesting. I
doubt if Factory Records even thought that far about
it-but they made more money. Then again, a diluted
form of something usually does ....
R/S: Do you think you started an "industrial culture"?
GEN: There has been a phenomena; I don't know
whether it's strong enough to be a culture. I do think
what we did has had a reverberation right around the

thought it was an incredible breakthrough for a punk

band to do a rock'n'roll single on their own label. So
we did a non-rock'n'roll LP. Everyone said we must be
complete mental suicides. It turned out not to be ....
R/S: Lots of contradictions and ironiesGEN: And lots of secret information.Just about every
record had some reference in it towards one that had
gone before or one that was coming next. So there was
this strange spider's web building up. And a lot of
people weren't sure what it was, but they got this
feeling that if they could just get the pattern on the
kaleidoscope, it would suddenly all become clear. We
used to put in enough red herrings to prevent that!
Assuming that we had no basic interest in making
records, no basic interest in music per se, it's pretty
weird to think that we've released something like 10
albums, plus bootlegs; 40 cassettes ... that have had an
effect on the whole popular music scene, forever.

world and back. It obviously revealed that there were

a lot of people in all sorts of different countries that
you wouldn't expect to have a very similar view or
vision of what was happening.
There was a market everywhere for that material,
and to a certain extent there still is-all our records
are still selling. But I don't know how many of those
people have actually analyzed it beyond a certain
point. I think a lot of them got an initial recognition
buzz ... and they also got a novelty buzz, and it made
sense to them. It seemed to be relevant to some people, so that they've actually declared that it's changed
their lives!
Even graphics have been affected by it-barbedwire
and factories are suddenly incredibly acceptable, chic
images, when once they were completely ignored
R/S: Or not even thought of as suitable content.
GEN: It's funny, because in a way it's added a kind of
romance to the urban landscape- urban decay in factories has become a kind ofromance. I don't like using
the word "real," but in a sense we were trying to make
everything more real ... and to portray, the same way
that a Cut-up theoretically does: what it's like to be in a
house and go along the street and have a car go past or
a train and work in a factory or walk past a factory.
Just a kind of industrial life, or suburban-urban-industrial life.
When we finished that first record, we went outside
and we suddenly heard trains going past, and little
workshops under the railway arches, and the lathes
going, and electric saws, and we suddenly thought,
"We haven't actually created anything at all, we've just
taken it in subconsciously and re-created it."
The funny thing is, we didn't sit there to make industrial noises, per se. Afterwards, we discovered that one
could actually sort of describe in a very documentary
way, exactly where we'd created the sounds, in and
around Martello Street. Then again, according to our
theories of initiated magick, it seemed perfectly reasonable .... That's the way it always seems to be-you
suddenly realize afterwards that it was very accurate,
whereas the initial act is usually instinct. ...
We were also being deliberately perverse by doing
the opposite ofeverything everyone else said was feasible or practical or acceptable. Like everyone else

Then again, I wouldn't have seen the point ofhaving

a group that was just entertainment. I'd only have
wanted it to be a group that would remain some kind
of cult group like the Velvet Underground did-to
have that kind of longevity, to be a seminal group. So
although I find it on one level irritating or boring that
it still exists, at the same time it had to be that way.
But I'm really so disinterested in that now [Sept
1982]-it's got a life of its own now.
R/S: There's a fair number of imitators, imitating the content
and tonalitiesGEN: Other people are making their living out of it,
existing, releasing these posthumous records. Maggots eating a corpse. . .. It's the old story, isn't it, of
people completely misunderstanding the message.
It's like Joy Division-to a large extent they evolved a
unique sound of their own. a new sound amongst the
sort-of progression of musical sound They had their
own recognizable, individual style. And then suddenly there's 50 other groups who, because they like
Joy Division, use the same style that can't ever have
the content because they're not Ian Curtis.
Ian Curtis was talking about himself, and it had
nothing to do with any separation between his lyrics
and the reality inside his head and his emotions. And
they might tell you that they are the same-but if they
were the same, the sound would be different because
they would have to have a different sound to describe
their true individual emotion. The same with us, tooour sound is describing our collective and individual
emotions and visions. And the sound came from what
we thought and saw; it was second. To just copy the
sound-there's no way anyone can have the same
sound as us and be describing themselves in a truthful
way. It's just not possible.
Because that sound is completely inseparable from
the way we felt at any given moment, which is why we
did so much live, and why so much happened live.


Whatever happened live was exactly what was going

through us all at that time, just like being possessed in
a seance. And you can't imitate that or mimic it or copy
it. ...
There we are, trying to say: Go and check and f"md
your individual potential and your own voice ... and
they don't. If they even looked at the records they
would see that the style and the sound fluctuate
immensely. It isn't all industrial noise-there's "Distant Dreams" and tracks on Jazz Funk Greats-we
never felt any style was taboo-there's the Martin
Denny one on Journey Through A Body.
We had no fear of having to stick to one style. We
always saw it as a complete entity, and all the records
as being chapters of this one big book. And when the
book was f"mished, we stopped. And it's now a reference book.
It's like going into the Louvre and doing a drawing of
the Mona Lisa and thinking you're a fuckin~ artist.
That's what they're doing. They'd laugh at somebody
who came to them and said, "Hey, I'm really originallook at this pencil drawing of the Mona Lisa." Or, "I've
done an exact copy of a Picasso-that means I'm a
creative, unique artist." They'd laugh ... and then they
go and do the same thing with sound.
R!S: What you've done has involved a constant manipulation
and reassessmentGEN: Every record we did, we sat back and thought,
"Weil, what are they expecting now, having done the
other one ... and how can we manipulate and twist and
change things?" There's no way that you can have
failed, because you've done the track you wanted and
that's all you've ever said you are going to do. There-

all the options we wanted to keep. And we were just as

able to outrage them by doing something pretty ... and
yet they weren't even able to understand that that's
what we were doing. I hope they go away and never
buy our records again! -go and make a tent out oftheir
raincoats, and talk about ax-murderers and ....
R/S: You've presented a lor of taboo subjects for listeners to
research-mass murders, atrocities, mutilations. What do you
think of that?
GEN: It varies. Sometimes, although It's embarrassing, there are exceptions when there's such genuine
enthusiasm, and the other person is aware that it's
silly. You can't help tolerating it because there is no
harm in it- it's not actually doing them any harm, it's a
pleasurable hobby, and it's in perspective in their
entire life. It's still worrying, but-to do anything to
discourage it beyond a certain point would be very
cruel, and wouldn't actually be constructive.
But in the vast majority of cases, it's just another
example of people totally misunderstanding everything you ever said and did. In its worst cases it's
pathologically pathetic. And in most cases it's just a
waste of time. I mean, there obviously must be cases
where people just genuinely became interested
because of being directed toward a subject, and it is a
genuine interest-and you were just an accidental
catalyst toward something that probably would have
happened anyway. But let's put it this way-we get
these letters from people who try desperately to write
an outrageous, sick letter, and they try and use every
swear word they've heard, and mention pseudoMarquis de Sade scenarios. I don't know if they think
it's supposed to be impressive or make us wonder what

fore, per se, you cannot have failed. So- they either
don't like it (which is their privilege), or they don't
understand what we're doing, or refuse to accept what
we are doing.
But I think it's just as bad to not be able to take TG
when it's melodic, as it is when it's un-melodic. That's
why we did "Adrenalln" and "Distant Dreams"-to
make the point that we refused point-blank to give up

they're like or think they're really interesting people,

but I just throw them straight into the dustbin. There's
a lot of people around who'd be better off dead! Or at
least asleep somewhere, out of the way.
R!S: On the other hand, there are hopefully people out
there who send you items of interestGEN: Two or three. The strange thing is, most of the
people who are helpful are people we already knew.

Skull display, living room of Genesis POrridge. (Photo: Vale)

Sleazy. Cosey. Chris. Genesis. 1977. (Photo: Monte Cazazza)

Percentage-wise, itleaves something to be desired! I'm

pretty sure we'd have found just as many people we
liked and got on with if we'd never done TG. I don't
think it's increased our circle of lasting acquaintances
in the real sense at alL
R/S: How did you happen to study veal disease and
medical texts in general?
GEN: Monte had to do with that. And Sleazy-he was
doing all that work with injuries. I think he may have
gotten The ColourAtlas ofForensicPathology deliberately for research, whereas when I saw it I thought it
was great graphics! But Monte was always interested in
medical topics, because he'd done a project on Siamese twins before, and he had books on diseases and
amputations and things like that.
Then again, Monte was instantly one of us. It was
great when we first met, because he had the same
library he used to keep away from people in San
Francisco, because when they saw the books he had,
they'd tell him he was mentally sick and a sadist and a
Nazi, and he'd of course go, "Yeah .. . 50 what?" But
actually, it did upset him that he couldn't display what
he was really interested in ... freely discuss what he
was interested in.
The main reason we got on so well when we met
was-there was nothing he could produce that would
faze or disturb us. It was like instant rapport-and we
were swapping anecdotes about who's got information on what. He had loads of books that I hadn't
thought cf investigating or hadn't had access to
because they were American. And I'd say, "Have you
tried reading this, that and the other?" So, it was a very
fast cross-fertilization.

And he was very instrumental in the whole

concept-he was there when we called it Industrial
Records. He immediately coined that phrase and did a
collage of that; made the big TG wooden sign with that
flash on it. And he was very involved in tactics. He
even stuck the labels on most of the LP covers of the
first LP, the original white ones, evolving a special
template to make it easier. He was very, very involved
at the beginning, because he was living here with us
for 3 months. The tactics and marketing and propaganda and even the fact of dealing with it as propaganda and tactics was equally as much Monte's as ours.
I always have fun when Monte's here-he makes me
more extreme. It's very healthy.
R/S: You flfst visited him in 1976?
GEN: He was still living on Shattuck Avenue, in
R/S: You originally met him through the mail art
GEN: Yes. That was one of the few times when I'd
written to somebody first. I actually courted him.
Anna Banana wrote me this letter that she was living
with Bill Gaglione and had met this really horrible,
revolting person-the nastiest person she'd ever met
in her life, and he was evil and disgusting and vileshe went on and on about how horrible he was. And
he was called Monte Cazazza. And the one bad thing
about living in San Francisco was the fact he existed
All she did was totally incite my desire to know him
So I wrote to Opal Nations (because she wouldn't
give me his address) and got his address and wrote
more or less a fan letter which said something like,




.. ';;:~;;:{ii-+;~:

"You don't know me, but you sound pretty good .... "
And he wrote back, "I don't usually reply to anybody,
but something about your letter made it seem like you
weren't just another asshole." So we were both very
tentative, really, because we'd both been let down
lots of times.
And then I sent him a dead mouse-I found this
plastic plate with a knife and fork and a dead mouse in
the street, and I stuck it on the plate and sent it to him
as his breakfast so he'd get it ... bywhich time it'd be
pretty stinky. Then it got more out of hand I started
getting rtberglass resin and making big parcels with
mutant animals made out of bits of rabbits and
chickens and I'd send them in the mail. And at one
point he nearly got prosecuted by the post office for
receiving maggot-ridden, disgusting, stinking parcels!
He got called into the post office-there was this parcel on the desk addressed to him that was just rotten

Genesis with daughter Caresse. Sept 1982. (Photo: Vale)



meat, and they said to him, "Didyou ask for this parcel
to be sent?" He had to deny that he knew anything
about it-he had to say that some lunatic in England
had sent it ....
Anything dead I found I used to send to Monte. And I
remember him once telling me that some art critic
was trying to chat him up for some reason, so he took
him this jam jar with a rotten dead mouse in it that
he'd received from me ... and kept presenting it to this
art critic. It was really foul and smelly. I think he gave
it to him on the bus.
I was going through my maggots-and-meat-throughthe-mail phase then. There was this exhibition in canada that General Idea did, with lots of perspex boxes
in a big mural. And they wrote to hundreds of people
and you had to send them something to put in one of
these perspex boxes, until there was something in
every box. Everybody else was doing these arty or

witty Fluxus-type things-I sent them a pint of live

maggots and, I think, a used tampax-but they didn't
put them in (laughs).
I wanted to have something in there that everyone
would go, ''Yecchh!'' Because for all their so-called
radicalism, they were incredibly conservative and
very moral-they used to get really incensed at some
of my pornographic collages-especially people in
"mail art"R/S: They're so smug about being outside the "art establishment-"
GEN: Because they're not good enough to be inthey couldn't survive inside.
R/S: There's only a few people you still correspond with that
you met through mail artGEN: Monte, Skot Annst, Jerry Dreva, Bobby Bon
Bon, sergei ... and AI Ackerman. Out of hundreds and
hundreds of people I wrote to, honed down to six
people. We got sick to death ofmall art people, and just
wanted to do insensitive ugly things to piss them off,
and just get left alone.
We wasted a hell of a lot of money on stamps. And
the novelty ofreceiving somewhat odd packages in the
post just wore off, because we noticed that the best
ones were always from the same four or five people.
Monte always wrote good letters.
So not long ago I went through my filing cabinets
and burned masses and masses ofold "mall art" letters.
It's not worth keeping it just in case one day it's worth
money-it's taking up space. We had a big bonfire-it
was great. All these photos of mall artists curling up,
turning brown and blistering. Xeroxed dada collages ... how much better it is!
There was a period when I was really into it very
enthusiastically ... and then it kind of got diluted and
plagiarized and misunderstood What had been a thing
where you just did a really special hand-done letter,
with collages and photos, just for a friend-not as art,
or mail art, but just because it was nice to get a letter
like that. Suddenly there were all these people doing
all these envelopes-xeroxes of absolutely crass, bad
collages with a rubber stamp stamped on it somewhere, and a funny name. And that was their
interpretation-that was their understanding of it.

Exactly the same problem we had with Industrial

Records-that's why you have to move on quick before
it's too late-you get swamped by second-rate
That's not to claim that everything we've ever done is
good, but at least the motivation was correct. I mean,
good in terms of- if there is some scale you can mea-

sure value of work against. I'm not trying to claim that

we are fantastically talented or wonderful, but-we've
always had integrity of motive. And whether it has any
value beyond that I don't know, but I do always care
about the motivation and the integrity and I get upset
when I see that being smeared and misunderstood.
And there's not a lot you can do except move on
quick to something where there's still a space to move.
I mean, there are still people who are locked into those
fucking xeroxes now! That's like years and years and
years after it was obviously a redundant thing to do.
Nice letters aren't redundant. but then people who did
the nicest letters have been doing them anyway,
before they'd heard of mail art. and carried on doing
them after they thought mail art was redundant. The
best things have come from the people who didn't
need to think ofit as mall art or correspondence-they
were friends!
RlS: What do you think of Mark Pauline?
GEN: What do you mean?-we're friends! He has
integrity. I always try to tell people in England about
Mark Pauline ... I like Neal as well-I see them as the
ultimate sort of frontier Americans, the Clint Eastwoods of the art world. 100% reasonable behavior ...
(Genesis invents a fantasy scenario for a Mark Pauline
feature film a la Mad Max or The Cars ThatAte Paris).
He's one of the good guys.
R/S: I didn't know you knew Z'ev?
GEN: Yes, he's one of the good guys too. I like him.
There's not many people around; you've got to take
them when you canI When I like somebody, I don't
really care what they do-when I do, it's a bonus. He's
another kind of individuaL He's weird-highly intelligent and very weird. I see people like Zev and Mark
Pauline-to me they're like modern alchemists. All the
best people are like that. in that alchemical tradition. I
said that to Zev and he agreed ...wisely nodding.
I'm always flattered when people like Zev and Mark
Pauline bother to stay in touch, because I know they
don't bother to unless they really want to. Zev played
with TG at the Lyceum. I met him through Rod Pierce
(of Fetish Records).
Boyd Rice is good- I like him a lot. I wanted to
release an LP of Boyd on Industrial but .... We did

manage to get him on with us a few times-we put him

on the first time he ever played England, at the London
Filmmakers Co-op. And it was at that gig that Daniel
Miller saw him and then signed him to Mute. I even
mixed for him-some people said it was the loudest
they've ever heard Boyd. I had it up loud-it literally
made people move. It moved their stomachs like they
had been hit. See, Monte told me that we should put
Boyd up-that it was the best dance music he'd ever
heard. I thought Monte was being ironic, but when I
heard it the f'lrst time I understood what he meant.
Because it was so pbysicalRlS: When he can get the volume he requiresGEN: And he played with us in Berlin two nights, and
at the Lyceum. So we played with him four times.
RlS: You place extremely high value on work-don't you
work all the time?
GEN: Yes. But then you get somebody like Crowleywho wrote all those bloody books! And he goes mountaineering, and has lots of sex; he does paintings, he
travels, he does magazines, he gets books published as
well as writing them, he organizes magickal societies,
he has political in-f'lghting going on, he's drugging
it-how the hell did he do it all? How on earth is it
RlS: Plus he wrote joumalsGEN: That have never yet come out-I know. Reams.
It takes all my time to write half a page of a diary every
day-and it's not even particularly interesting to read!
And this bloke has spewed forth masses ofprovocative
stuff, and he could speak all those languages, and he
was a very good mathematician-an amazing mathematician. And it makes you feel really pathetic.
RlS: Maybe the more writing you do, the faster it gets?
GEN: I've gotten slower. I used to be able to write
really fast-now I take ages.
R/S: Yes, but you were writing more letters then, whereas
now you're writing more philosophical, compressed essays.
GEN: It is more compressed. But it's much more
RlS: Somebody said that writing is the only way to learn
anything .... Incidentally, does Sleazy write?
GEN: Sleazy is a big tactician; he's been much more
seminal in what we've been doing than a lot ofpeople
realize. He's very very particular in every sense, and is
always checking out tactics and responses. He's very
much the head of graphics and design, and is equally
involved in the philosophy. He's very much a puristalways trying to make sure we never strayed from our
pure directions. It was usually Sleazy whom I would
turn to, to have a very long analysis/rap session, about
the essential nature of what we're all really doing ....

The more you tell the truth. the more

camouflaged it is.
When we shifted from Coum Transmissions to TG,
we were also stating that we wanted to go into popular
culture, away from the art gallery context. and show
that the same techniques that had been made to operate in that system could wor)t. We wanted to test it out
in the real world, or nearer to the real world, at a more
street level-with young kids who had no education in


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:;~~~. :
, ,;', '~\'. :~;, ~'.:
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art perception, who came along and either empathized or didn't; either liked the noise or didn't.
A little mini-Dada movement, eh?
R/S: Possibly, with the power to affect people lacking a
sophisticated art background.
GEN: Well, that's something we've always tried to do.
Now we're going to try and do that with a sort of
philosophical, mystical magick, so non-dogmatic and
non-authoritative-people who've been brought up to
despise anything that smacks of"religion"-maybe we
can remind them that there are useful structures; that
spiritual values aren't necessarily to be despised or
ridiculed; that there are certain individual attentions
which, when used in a mystical way, actually are quite
I'd like to be able to present whatever we do so that
somebody with no training can get into it as easily as
somebody with training. Quite often it is the people
without training who get into it quicker. And often it is
the people with training who are most antagonistic.
And to do it without simplifying it, without taking any

level, aren't they? It is worrying.

R/S: It's the old problem-they can't grasp the spirit behind
the material forms.
GEN: All of us were working before it became "industrial," and discovered each other and recognized that
kindred spirit, that driving force, and that's what made
us all, if you like, "industrial culture." It's just that we
wanted to have some kind of alliance, because we felt
like we were all a kind of outlaw-but we all had some
basic motivation and drive in common.
None of us were worried whether we sounded stylistically the same. It never even-I mean we were all
quite happy that we didn't! It didn't even matter
whether we thought each other was good-that had
nothing to do with it. Or whether we liked everything
that each one did What was interesting was the people
irwolved.. . and that we'd arrived at the same
alienated, cynical point, and somehow found a way,
a method to rationalize it and integrate it back.
Like we've often said-I can't really like a lot of
records or a lot of thin~ unless I like the people who

of its power away, so that you're not being

patronizing-you're merely trying to take away the
mystique and the vested interest in trying to sound like
you've got to be special to understand this. It doesn't
have to be a bastardized version to be understood by a
lot of people. I'd like to try and flnd a form that treats
everybody as being intelligent, at least potentially ....
You assume initially that people want a bit more
content, some project which has a lot more depth to it,
and that the fact that everyone says "Oh, everyone just
wants trivia and superflciality" isn't true. People are
actually pleased to be given a bit more credit for a bit
more intelligence. I think it's far better to make something on the assumption that people will work to
understand it ...
And, there's no fun if there isn't risk ... Sometimes I
think we've given birth to a monster, uncontrollable,
thrashing, spewing forth mentions ofAuschwitz for no
reason. It's funny, because when I really think about it,
the original haif-dozen who started it all off are still the
best ones, like the Cabs and Boyd-the first wave. I
suppose that's inevitable. It's the old story, like in the
60's-Zappa was completely different to Beetheart,
who was completely different to the Doors, who were
completely different to the Velvet Underground. And
we were completely different to the Cabs, really. And
Boyd Rice was totally different, and Z'ev is different.
Monte's different in his way. And we've all got a quite
clear individual style linked to our individual lives.
Whereas now they all sound like each other, and more
than each other they sound like weedy fragments that
they've honed in on, of one or the other people. The
way they can even not notice that every one of the
original industrial groups and people was totally different from each other-they've even missed that fact.
That Mark Pauline does not sound like "Slug Bait," that
Boyd Rice doesn't sound like "Nag Nag Nag," and so on.
They don't even seem to be able to take that information in.
R/S: And Boyd is capable of doing a totally pop song, totally
opPOsite in an unrecognizable direction ...
GEN: These youn~ters are less interesting on every

do them. I don't know the Velvet Underground and I

enjoy their records, but that's actually an exception.
But then it gets funny, because it goes one stage
further-if I like the people, it no longer matters
whether I ever listen to what they do. It's got beyond
that point now- I just trust the reason they're working.
I think the reason they're working is valid-that's the
crux of the matter. And I don't need to keep checking
up on what they're up to!
The other thing that is quite staggering is that
"industrial" has become a word that is used
worldwide-there are record sections in shops in
Japan that say "Industrial Music" And journalists now
use "industrial" as a term like they would "blues." It's
become part of the vocabulary. And I'm sure most of
them have totally forgotten where it came from and
don't even realize how it appeared-I think they just
write as if it always was a term they used! If we had a
royalty for every time the word "industrial" was used,
we'd be doing all right! Luckily you don't really think
of it like that; if you did, it'd become really scary. Will
"psychic" become a trend next? Where will it all end?
R/S: You can feel another occult revival just around the
GEN: Sandy Robertson did a 2-page feature on
Aleister Crowley in Sounds, and the photo we
gave them had lots of psychick crosses added to all
of the regalia. It was credited: "Photo courtesy of
The Temple of Psychick Youth." And it brought more
mail than they've had in 2 years!
The propaganda war has begun! It's time for optimism and hope! And love, with a bit of naughty sex
thrown in for good measure ....

(I'm sure we were misdirected-but we've seen the

error of our ways, dear public! We understand now;
Leonard Cohen was the answer. Leonard Cohen and
Ennio Morrlcone had the true image of reality, and
violins and ceUos definitely play theirpart In fact, we
might say acoustic music is the thing. Oh, sad day that
we decided the machine was somehow relevant!)

These youngsters are less

interesting on every level, aren't
they? It is worrying.


(The performance art group Genesis and Cosey developed with other collaborators; Sleazy joined the final
year. Watch for a coming history of Coum Transmissions by Gray Watson: Power, Sex and Magick.)

Cosey with 2 cats. Chris with Abba picture disc. 1982.

(Photos: Andree Juno)


(from a May 28, 1981 interview with Chris and Cosey
just before the last TG concert, san Francisco)

R/S: What are your instruments?

COSEY: Cornet and lead guitar, usually with a slide. I
prefer that sound because of all the other noises that
are going on-it comes through then, otherwise it's
just a muddy sound underneath everything else.
R/S: Did you teach yourself?
COSEY: I just bash it around- I don't play it sussed. I
just get what I can out of it; I could never use it as a
melody instrument which most guitars are used as. I
use it as a rhythmic instrument.
R/S: Chris, you devised the rhythmic tracks?
CHRIS: (nods.) Some of the rhythms are quite old,
from 2 years ago. They're all on cassettes.
RlS: Did you build a lot of the equipment?
CHRIS: I built Sleazy's keyboard. It's a one-octave
keyboard; each line is triggering 3 Sony stereo cassette
machines, loaded with cassettes with prerecorded
noises on them. He makes tape loops with constant
noises on them-shortwave noises, a tape loop of a
piano, screaming voices, and other things. He had a
Jim Jones tape but it was like a subliminal.
He just has all the outputs running through his keyboard, and he can play with the output. He's got a little
sequencer built in that can override the keyboard, that
can build up a rhythm if he wants to. And he's got a
little harmonizer-for pitch changing-and we've all
got little Roland micro-monitor amplifiers.
RlS: It's all very compact, suitcase-sizedCHRIS: Gen's is the biggest-he's got a bass guitar so
he's got to have a bigger amp, a Cube. He's got a pedalboard in the lid of his box, so he takes the lid off and
all his pedals are on. And Cosey's got the same sort of
thing. I've just got a small Casio keyboard, the slightly
bigger model, with all sorts of pedals-a harmonizer,
phaser, flanger, etc. And I've got a cassette machine
which I play all the rhythms on.
And we've got a small box, a chorus echo, that we put
all the vocals through, so I can speed them up and slow
them down, repeat them, and things like that.
R/S: You modify the vocals live?
CHRIS: Yes. And Cosey's got her cornet as well which
she puts through her box. That's it! Very mobile.



GENESIS: I used to do things like stick severed

chickens' heads over my penis, and then try and masturbate them, whilst pouring maggots all over it ....
In Los Angeles, in 1976, at the Institute of Contemporary Arts (LAICA), Cosey and I did a performance
where I was naked. I drank a bottle of whisky and
stood on a lot of tacks. And then I gave myself enemas
with blood, milk and urine, and then broke wind so a
jet of blood, milk and urine combined shot across the
floor in front of Chris Burden and assorted visual
artists. I then licked it off the floor, which was a notclean concrete floor.
Then I got a to-inch nail and tried to swallow it,
which made me vomit. Then I licked the vomit off the
floor and Cosey helped me lick the vomit offthe floor.
And she was naked and trying to sever her vagina to
her navel-well, she cut it from her vagina to her navel
with a razor blade, and she injected blood into her
vagina which then trickled out, and we then sucked
the blood from her vagina into a syringe and injected
it into eggs painted black, which we then tried to eat.
And we vomited again, which we used for enemas.
Then I needed to urinate, so I urinated into a large
glass bottle and drank it all while it was still warm.
(This was all improvised.) And then we gradually
crawled to each other, licking the floor clean ('cause
we don't like to leave a mess, y'know; after all, it's not
fair to insult an art gallery). Chris Burden, who's
known for being outrageous, walked out with his girlfriend, saying, ''This is not art, this is the most disgusting thing I've ever seen, and these people are sick."
In Amsterdam we did a performance in the red-light
district. The people in the theater asked, "What kind of
lighting do you want?" and we said, "Ob, just put on all
the red lights." Then we played tapes of Charles Manson's LP, Lie, cut-up with soundtracks of trains going
through thunderstorms, and we went through all different kinds of fetishes. Sleazy cut his throat and had
to kind of do a tourniquet on his throat, and Cosey and
I did this thing of spitting at each other and then
licking all the spit off, and then licking each other's
genitals, and then having sexual intercourse while
her hair was set on rue with candles. There was an
audience of around 2,000 people.
And each day it got heavier, so that on EasterSunday
I was crucified on a wooden cross, whipped with 2
bullwhips, covered in human vomit and chicken
wings and chicken legs, while I had to hold burning
torches-people in the audience could hear the skin
burning on my hands. And then I urinated down
Cosey's legs while she stuck a lighted candle up her
vagina, so there was flames coming out of her vagina.
Just ordinary everyday ways of avoiding the commercials on the television....


. /!' ....


Poem for Uncle Bill

UB who UB
supposedly an evil power
an old man
sometimes it showed
drinking whisky
till it slurred
E am E
we agree it was inevitable
Uncle Bill
"in search of an alternative universe"
Passing a Rolls-Royce
E promise to buy one
complete with chauffeur
he promised night
such a sickness
never known


"this planet rotten"

The Passionate Years/Caresse Crosby

Funeral Rites/Jean Genet
Black Sun/Geoffrey Wolff
Shadows of the Sun/Harry Crosby
Shock Value/John Waters
Naked City
Murderer's Who's Who/Gaute & Odell
Surrealist Art/Sarane Alexandrian
Surrealism/Patrick Waldberg
Sex life of the Foot & Shoe
Dada & Surrealism
Seven Dadaist Manifestos/Tristan Tzara
Arsenal of Democracy/ed Tom Gervasi
law Enforcement Bible/ed R A Scanlon
Camouflage (2 titles)
Army Uniforms of World War II/Mollo
Post-Mortem Procedures/Gresham
& Turner
Forensic Pathology/Gresham
Syphilis/U.S. Public Health Service
Anatomy of the S.S. State
Uniforms, Organization & History of the
Waffen SS (4 vol/Bender & Taylor)
Things That Matter/Rubenstein & Block
Heavily Tattooed Men & Women/
Spider Webb
Murders of the Black Museum
A Century of Murderers
Feelings About Childbirth
Design Motifs of Ancient Mexico/Encisco
Very Special People/Frederick Drimmer
All About Iguanas/Roberts & Roberts
Keep The River On Your Right/Schneebaum
Trip Trap
Dowsing/Tom Graves
Book of the Damned/Charles Fort
Witch, Spirit, Devil!A.E. Scott
History of Magic, Witchcraft and
Occultism/W.e. Crow
The Alchemists/F. Sherwood Taylor
Dictionary of Gynecological History/
Berkeley & Sonney
Ascent of Man/Bronowski
Songs of Gods, Songs of Humans/
Siava Ranko aka Donald L. Philippi
Grotowski's laboratory
Milton's Poetical Works
I Ching
Ritual in the Dark/Colin Wilson
SWingin' Dors/Diana Dors
A Scanner Darkly/Philip K. Dick
Now Wait for last Year/P.K. Dick
Cosmic Trigger/Robert A. Wilson
Dada Almanach/HUlsenbeck
Art et Communication Marginale/
Herve Fischer
Autobiography of a Yogi/Yogananda

some future some futility one future

how ridiculous
a name becoums
a dream becoums
a card becoums
a conversation
we agree to eradicate
a few phenomena and parted
-genesis p-orridge
(after meeting Bill Burroughs, 1973)

COUM Transmissions performance. (Photo: Coum Transmissions)


Across Poland
Prostitutes/Denise Winn
The Underground Film
A Crystal Age/W.H. Hudson
Dictionary of Contemporary
American Artists
life Star/Hermine Demoriane
Contemporary Artists/ed P-Orridge/Naylor
Infamous Murderers
The Rise of Communist China
Requiem For A Dream/Hubert Selby
National Suicide
The Home Birth Handbook
Breast Is Best
Magic of Tone & the Art of Music
Nuclear Survival Handbook/B Popkess
The Third Wave/Alvin Toffler
None Dare Call It Conspiracy/Allen
None Dare Call It Treason
The Beat Scene
Heartbeat/Carolyn Cassady
Visions of Cody/Jack Kerouac
Visions of Gerard/ "
Kerouac/ Ann Charters
Kaddish/ Allen Ginsberg
The Tin Drum/Gunter Grass
Dead Souis/Gogol
Diary of a Madman/Gogol
The Government Inspector/Gogol
Overcoat & Other Taies/Gogol
Intimacy/Jean-Paul Sartre
The Age of Reason/JPS
Being & Nothingness/JPS
No Exit & 3 Other Plays/JPS
Malleus Maleficarum
Dagon/H P lovecraft
At the Mountains of Madness/HPl
The lurking Fear/HPl
The Tomb/HPl
Case of Charles Dexter Ward/HPl
The Shuttered Room/HPl
Orgasm/Helen Bishop
Fall of the House of Usher/Poe
Tales of Mystery & Imagination/Poe
Harry S Truman/Margaret Truman
The Agatha Christie Mystery
Through Music To The Self
The Books In My life/Henry Miller
Hitler's Mein Kampf
Technology & Human Affairs
I Was Hitler's Doctor
Human Societies
Inside the 4th Reich/Erdstein & Bean
Number of the Beast/Heinlein
Identity Papers
Drums, Tom Toms & Rattles/B S Mason
Aleister Crowley & The Hidden God/
Kenneth Grant
Commandant of Auschwitz
Magical Revival/Kenneth Grant
The Magician/Somerset Maugham



::::,,~~ ..~.~~},;~ ::~,

Magician of the Golden Dawn/Roberts
The Magicians of the Golden Dawn/
Ellie Howe
The Magical World of Aleister Crowley/
Francis King
Outside the Circles of TIme/K. Grant
Cults of the Shadow/Kenneth Grant
The Golden Dawn/Israel Regardie
The Golden Dawn: Inner Teachings/
R.G. Torrens
The Great Beast/John Symonds
Key of the Mysteries/Eliphas Levi
Legend of Aleister Crowley/Regardie
Secret Rituals of the O.T.O.
Ritual Magic in England/F. King
The Star in the West/Capt. Fuller
Book of Sacred Magic of Abra-Melin
Lesser Key of Solomon: Goetia/
de Laurence
Le Mystere de Cathedrales/Fulcanelli
The Fulcanelli Phenomenon/K.R. Johnson
Rosy Cross Unveiled
Sword of Wisdom/lthell Colquhoun
Transcendental Magic/Eliphas Levi
Ceremonial Magic/Israel Regardie
Vril/ Bulwer-lytton
Ritual Magic: An Occult Primer/
David Conway
Dictionary of Occult, Hermetic 8<
Alchemical Sigils/Fred Gettings
Alchemists and Gold/Jacques Sadoul
Crystal Magick/Carlyle A. Pushong
Deadly Magic/Eric Maple
Drum and Candle/David St.Clair
Flight From Reason/Berninghausen
The Psychic Mafia
Ritual Magic/Francis King
Satan Wants You/Arthur lyons
The Satanic Mass/H.T.F. Rhodes
Sex in Witchcraft/Lauran Pajre
Voodoo-Eros/ Bry
Images 8< Oracles of Austin
Osman Spare/Kenneth Grant
The Manson Murders/Cooper
Five To Die
The Killing of Sharon Tate
Witness to Evil/George Bishop
Blood Family
Cults in America/David Hanna
The Family/Ed Sanders
Son of Sam/George Carpozi Jr
Ted Bundy: The Killer Next Door
Great Crimes of San Francisco
The St. Albans Poisoner
Urge to Kill
Anatomy of a Psycho
The Denial of Death/Becker
Hitler's Secret Ufe/Glenn B. Infield
The Dark Side of t'istory/Edwardes
The Bertin Bunker/J.P. O'Donnell
Satan and Swastika/Francis King
Hitler: The Fuhrer and the People

Soldier's Handbook/Col Anthony B Herbert

House of Dolls/Ka-Tzetnik
Children of the SS
The Knights of Bushido
The Scourge of the Swastika
The Third World War
Truly Murderous
Bad Blood
The Yorkshire Ripper/Roger Cross
Complete Jack The Ripper/D Rumbelow
I'm Jack
The Monsters of the Moors
Beyond Belief
The Killer/Colin Wilson
Wanted! The Search for Nazis in America
Breakthrough/Constantin Raudive
Japan At War 1937-1945
Day of the TriffidslWyndham
120 Days of Sodom/de Sade
Life 8< Ideas of Marquis de Sade
Gods 8< Beasts: Nazis 8< Occult
Nazi Propaganda/Z A Zeman
Schoolgirl Murder Case/C Wilson
Myth of the Master Race


Book of Lies
Book of Thoth
Book of Wisdom or Folly
Commentaries of Al
Complete Astrological Writings
Crowley on Christ
Diary of a Drug Fiend
Equinox/10 volume set
The Eye in the Triangle
Gems from the Equinox
I Ching
The Law Is For All
Liber Aleph
Magick in Theory 8< Practice
Magickal Diaries of A. Crowley
Magickal Record of the Beast 666

White Stains
Yoga 8< Magic
The Vision and The Voice

Alain Presencer Uve
Mongolian Gongs
Moroccan Music
Velvet Underground
Master Musicians of Jajouka
New Guinea
New York Poetique
Ed Kemper
Gary Gilmore (2)

Richard Chase
Aleister Crowley
W.S. Burroughs (many)
Brion Gysin (many)
Raudive Voices
Hitler Speaks
Gay Chickens
P.T.V. lectures

TEMPLE MAil ORDERS. 10 Martello St,
london E.8 England. For Throbbing Gristle lPs.
remaining Industrial records including the rare
William Burroughs lP Nothing Here Now But
The Recordings (7 air mail). Inquiries only
send 2 IRCs.
ROUGH TRADE, 326 6th St. San Francisco
CA 94103. $1 for catalog. (415) 6214307.
ROUGH TRADE, 137 Blenheim Crescent.
london W11 England. 01-221-1100. Send 2
IRCs for information. (Also contact address for
Chris & Cosey. )
SYSTEMATIC. 729 Heinz Av, Berkeley CA
94710. (415) 845-3352. $1 for catalog.
MICHAEL SHAM BERG. Videos. 1050 6th
Av, NYC 10018. (212) 840-0659.
NANAVESH. TG Magazine. $10 airmail.
Dave Farmer, 48 Markwell Close, longton
Grove, Sydenham. london SE26 60G.
GEFF RUSHTON. 1) Nothing Short of A
Total War. 2} Assume Power Focus. lPs 8<
cassettes, 7 airmail each. 14 Beverley Rd.
london W4 England.
RIP-OFF. Rambachstr. 13, 2000 Hamburg
11. 040-313846. Send 2 IRCs for catalog.
VOX Magazine. Back issues on TG, 2 each.
Dave Clifford, 449A South Circular Rd. Rialto.
Dublin 8, Ireland. 753-768.
PSYCHIC TV c/o Some Bizarre. 17 StAnnes
Court, london W1 England. Send 5 for
CLEM (good source for updated TG info. current issue $2). PO Box 86010, North Vancouver. 8.C., Canada V7l 4J5.




NOTE: A comprehensive discography of Throbbing Gristle was printed in RelSearch #4/5

(still available). For updated availability of
records, cassettes and videocassettes by
Throbbing Gristle. Psychic TV, and Chris and
Cosey, write Rough Trade.

Every In Print Book by William S Burroughs

Bnon GyslO. and J G Ballard avaIlable from
C,ty lIghts Bookstore
261 Columbus.
San FrancIsco CA 94133

.. ::0::::


Mark Pauline in the indoor assembly room at the original SRL headquarters, San Francisco. C02 laser apparatus in background. (Photo: Bobby Adams)
Previous pages: serial photos of Nov 13, 1982 show by Mark Austin/portrait of Matty and Mark in action by 80bby Adams.

.', .'.

M a r k Pauline manufactures maniac

machines with personalities ... then turns them loose
on people in parking lots and other public sites amidst
dynamite detonations, spurting blood, rockets on
cables, dead animal-robot mutations, mechanical flipping men, huge blowers, giant paintings of public
figures being mercilessly mocked and tormented-the
general atmosphere of a rusty carnival in hell exuding
sweat, fire and poisonous fumes. Often machines battle
each other to the death, fall on each other from great
heights, and in other ways demonstrate the follies of
impersonal power and injustice. Hieronymus Bosch
come to life in the graveyard of the Industrial
Revolution ....
No two performances have been (or can be) alike, as
constant destruction requires constant replacement.
(Gone are the guitar-copulating cat, the pigeon-eating
centrifuge, the mechanical scorpion, the bloody claw,
the face-stabbing conveyer blades, and other memorable monsters.) In their place are newer beasts of
mayhem whose iron limbs often display fur and flesh
from hapless creatures. As well as technically sophisticated perversions of the missile launcher, the helicopter and the laser.
The most exalted values and hazards of assemblyline civilization are paid tribute in Mr. Pauline's cargo
cult-like celebrations. In a theater of simulated warfare,
machines run free and amok in all directions, expressing very specific ideas of destruction and confusion.
Each show requires extensive preparations. All
details of construction (ranging from large backdrop
paintings which will be destroyed, to placement of
xenon lighting, to carefully spliced ambient soundtracks, to pre-planted explosive charges, to multiple
warhead targeting-as well as the invention of the
principal machines themselves) are supervised and
implemented by Survival Research Laboratories: Mark
Pauline, with assistants Matthew Heckert, Eric Werner,
Mary Svirsky, Neal Pauline, Jim Storm, Mark & Janice
Sangerman, Monte Cazazza and other souls with morticians' smiles.
In these interviews, Mark Pauline recounts events
directing him toward his present state of obsessive
morbid inventiveness ....



.".:.,.g . . .



:~ ,;'.,.:~;.

,,:,'.,: : :'



fixing them up and selling them because they were

too fucked up to fix!
R/S: You also went hunting?
MARK: I never really went hunting, just shooting at
anything. We used to play the numbers game-we
would hunt with our pellet guns and .22's. We used to
go out and see how many birds we could kill a day
because these blackbirds would be flocking and we'd
get up to 100 birds apiece. We'd see who could kill the
most birds first. There were lots of offshoots of that
Before we had rifles we hunted rabbits with bows
and arrows which was a real favorite 'cause if you
shoot them with an arrow they run through the
bushes and you could always track them downthey'd rustle the bushes and you'd flnd them struggling with an arrow stuck in them. Of course we had
wrist rocket slingshots from a very early age- you'd go
to a surgical supply store and get the extra extra thick
surgical bands to give it a little boost-those were
good. They were good for shooting turtles that used to
be under bridges-we'd shoot them with big pieces of

Then there was the stabbing arm

which was blowing up the faces of
those unfortunate people who presumably were tortured souls ...
tortured by reactionary thought.

The mobile Mr. Satan hangs from his radio-controlled vehicle at

the Nov 13, 1982 spectacle. (Photo: Mark Sangerman)

R/S: When did you flIst realize you could make things?
I think the real revelation came when I went
to the Police Museum at Fort Charlotte, Florida, and
saw zip guns. I took at least a whole year out of my life
perfecting the zip gun. I just learned how many permutations the zip gun could come in, all the different kind of loads you could put in. I used spokes from
Harley Davidsons, pipes, anything you could imagine.
I used shotgun shell powder, auto weights, nails ....
R/S: Did you go to stock car races??
MARK: As a family activity we were pretty much restricted to three things: we either went out to the parks
or the woods or we went to the horror films that
showed a lot in the South, every weekend at all the
theaters. If it wasn't those two itwas the stock ear races.
R/S: So you learned early how to work on cars?
MARK: Not really-the people I hung around were
more interested in motorcycles. You couldn't drive a
car till you were 16 but you could drive a motorcycle
when you were 14. We used to buy HarleySportsters
and drive them around when we were 14 and that's
when I first learned mechanical things- I spent many
hours of astute study in the art of repairing motorcycles. I spent all my time and in shop classes in high
school working on my motorcycle. Making them faster, then wrecking them, then fixing them up and then
wrecking them 'cause they were too fast, and then

That was the main kind of hunting that we did-we

just hunted anything that moved. Back then you could
be 11 years old and carry guns around and no one
would say anything.
R/S: I suppose you went fishing as well?
MARK: We used to bunt flsh-we used to shoot flsh
with rifles, that was another hunting game. We'd hunt
flsh with bombs-we used to tie M-80's and throw
them down into the water. They would blow up and
the flsh would float to the surface and you could jump
in and get them while they were stunned. We experimented with that a lot.
R/S: Where'd you get the M-80's?
MARK: When I was a kid you could send away for the
powder. Another place wouldn't ship you the powder
but would ship you all the components, the M-80 casings and the fuses, and you would just mix them
together. That's how you could get around the ban on
fireworks in the state.
R/S: Did you ever try to make a Super M-80?
MARK: Well-that's what it was all about! You'd buy
the powder and instead of using the casings you'd
walk around behind the department stores and get the
big thick cardboard rolls from adding-machine paper,
pack the powder in there with a little epoxy and wrap
it with a half pound of packing tape. Then you figure
out what to do with it. We used to blow up picture
windows and do all sorts of things-make time
bombs ....
R/S: With a clock for a fuse?
MARK: With cigarette fuses.
R/S: 2V2 minutes.
MARK: Right. Everybody did that kind of stuff.


But not everybody got 100 birds in one day.

That was exceptionally good-me and this
guy would get up really early and go out to where
these birds would flock. They would eat these palm
berries and get really drunk. and you could just sit
there and go Bam! Bam! Bam! until they finally went
(Mark gives a confused look), "Hey, let's get outta
here'" These birds were so stupid, incredibly dumbdrunk. that you could just kill and kill again.
R!S: How did you transition out of all this? When did you
cross the line and start making your machines?
MARK: I made that decision in stages, pretty much.
In the first place I decided (like anybody else who
really thinks) that obviously the ideas that are supposed to be right arejust Ues. And once I realized that
they were lies I realized I didn't have to quit all the fun
things I did when I was a kid. So I pretty much kept
doing them- I just worked on different things. 'Cause
I knew it was OK to have fun, but you had to work on
things because there was more to life than having fun.
So I worked on things like learning how to reall:y
think. I tried to learn how to think in the classical
sense of thinking. I went to school. I went to collegeof course I still did pretty much anything I wanted
to- but by the time I was done I was prettywell versed
in the art of thinking up things and taking ideas, getting your own ideas, understanding what ideas were
yours, sifting them out from all the other trash that
you're surrounded by... and being able to make some
kind of communication of them. The machines were

just a connection between my teaching myself to use

my hands and make all these gadgets, which I did
early on ... and learning how to think things out. And
then just doing what I wanted to do. This just all
coalesced with all the machines ... ending up being a
natural and powerful vehicle for me to get across ideas
that I always had and had never abandoned, never
grew out of.
Rls: What are some of these ideas?
MARK: Well, I've always liked to think that I can stir
up trouble. It excites me to think that I can cause
trouble. It's a very exciting thing and it still continues
to make me excited: to think that I can make trouble
and annoy people. Not just annoy people, but in more
of an open-ended way annoy people in a way that
confuses them. There's a big difference between that,
and the kind of thing I did when I was 11 years old and
would break half the windows in the block and steal
cars and run them into poles just for fun. If you continue to think about what you're doing-all the ramifications of what you're doing-you eventually realize
there are other ways ....
R!S: Well, you also attacked billboards. I've always hated
those insults and lies on billboards, but you did something
about them ....
MARK: Well, that just fits in with the idea: I like to
make trouble and I like to work hard. I think it's really
good to work hard. It's something I've always thought
was good: to try to make the distinction between working really hard and getting nowhere ... and working

Close-up showing a confrontation between two mummies on the MummyGoRound. November 13.1982 show. (Photo: Mark Sangerman)


Mr. Pauline posing with the rabot, one example of SRL's experiments with organic robots (makes the dead rabbit walk backward).
Sept 1981 show. (Photo: Carol Detweiler)

rea1!y hard and accomplishing something that's hard

to do. That's the easiest point to get confused on:
wasting time or not wasting time. If you spend too
much time doing things, then you'll inevitably get
confused and start repeating meaningless things over
and over again and just waste your time.
R/S: How did you get to the point where you realized you
could do a performance?
MARK: 1 just had all this stuff-I would go into all
these factories and collect all this stuff. I'd been thinking about six months before, "God, I've got to do something; I've got to take advantage of my training." 1 had
all this training in all these areas that 1 didn't use
So 1 started doing things like randomly going
around and breaking into all these industrial places,
just because 1 didn't really know what to do with
myself-I was just looking around for something else
to do. (I always do that-when 1want to come up with
something different, 1 just start snooping around) 1
started breaking into all these places, and 1sawall this
cool stuff and 1 brought it home ... and started getting
a lot of it. And after awhile 1 was doing those billboards ... but 1 started thinking 1 should do things
with machines.
You can make an object and inevitably it falls into
the category of sculpture ... and becomes just another

part of the art world that 1was not interested in having

to deal with. So to keep it out of that category 1 put it

into the scheme ofthe performance: I'd spend months
and months making this equipment and do a show
that lasted only 10 minutes-which makes the whole
thing more absurd and ridiculous and pointless. 1
wanted to see if you could spend all that time and
distill it down into those few minutes and-would it
still be worth doing? It worked okay for me, and 1
continued to make more sophisticated devices as well
as cruder devices, and bigger things.
Now I'm trying to make more sophisticated things
that are smaller and have more possibilities for output.
I'm trying to make more ofa technology breakthrough
and do things that are a little bit more complicated and
see if it could stillwork out. Anytime you work on a real
technical level with machines, there's always this
danger that you can go overboard and come up against
the wall of wasting time. You've really got to watch it.
I've sort of played that card of increasing complexity
and it's worked out and it also hasn't- it's taken a lot of
time. But then again, if you don't do it then you're still
doing the same things you were doing before. Then
you might as well just forget it.
You look at the paper and see someone who's been
doing jazz for 30 years-why would you want to go and
see him? Or a Country &: Western singer who's been

J' . . '



singing the same songs for 40 years- why would you
want to go see someone do the same things for so long?
That's justawful. Writers or scientists don't work on the
same projects for 50 years. But in entertainment and
the arts, it all gets wrapped up in that game of repetition, because repetition is like money-you can print
it. If you can print enough of the same thing, then you
can get some value out of it.
Anyone who does anything original never repeats
themselves. And if you're really original and clever
you can do the same things and change them enough
so they don't have the- same repeated effect... so it's
not a copy of what you've done before.
R/S: Can you describe what you do for someone who's never
seen you?
MARK: I use all these different tangible devices to
conjure up, for anyone who's going to come in contact
with it, very spedfic ideas. Every show is pretty much
just a collection of extremely spedfic ideas acted out,
with very specific promotion. I've come to the conclusion that if you pack enough very SPecific ideas, and
can generate enough preconceived notions in people's minds, then they come to a show, the show starts
going, and ... if you can throw as many specific and
det1ned images and ideas in as short a time as you can,
you can end up having a real profound effect on people. And that's pretty much what all these shows and all
the equipment is geared to.

My mother was puzzled. not so

much that we would steal things.
but that .we used a blowtorch-I
think that really puzzled herand then just took gum.
The machines have a lot of advantages in that
respect: you can get across ideas in a background of
incredible power and endurance that you can't do
otherwise. If you start having human performers
you're very limited, because there are too many preconceived notions. By using machines you can escape
that; by throwing up a lot of very specffic ideas and
images at people you can confuse them.
If you try to impose enough order and organization
and throw it out at people, they're going to reject all of
it consciously, but subconsciously they can't reject it
because they're there in the midst of it and it's all
happening around them. And that's the area I'm
always aiming at to have an effect, because I'm just not
a t1rm believer in the transmission of any specffic
ideas-I don't have any specific ideas I want to communicate. I don't have any specffic dogmas I think
anyone else should believe in, but I like the idea of
throwing up a lot of information and having it affect
people any which way it can, as Clint Eastwood says.
R/S: What was a specific idea of your Fort Mason
MARK: Specifically Mysteries of the Reactionary
Mind: an exploration of the mechanics underlying
reactionary thought Everyone likes to think they
have specffic ideas about things like religion and politics, so naturally, if you promote something on the

basis of politics, people are going to be thinking of

what you do in those terms. Whether it has anything to
do with that or not, people are going to try to read into
it. Then, all the images in it were just devil and horror
images pretty much, like a reactionary horror movie.
There was the devil on a moving platform with the
bags of brown and black liquid that had bombs behind
them-he was moving into position, jockeying, t1ghting against the radio car with the big claw that was
stabbing at him, t1ring rockets at him. Then there was
the clawing arms getting dragged across the ground,
smashing after it went up a ramp and then fell. Then
there was the stabbing arm which was stabbing pic
tures and blowing up the faces of those unfortunate
people who presumably were tortured souls ... tortured by reactionary thought. Then there was the BB
machine t1ring at the glass ....
R/S: Whose huge face was that?
MARK: Oh, that was Lucretia Borgia's father in Fritz
Lang's mm ... her father was really mad at her because
she poisoned some people. That was a picture of him
really mad He had his face ripped off by a spitting
spike ball and then brown stuff squirted out from it.
That was what it was. I don't know what connection it
had to the poster, but those were some ofthe ideas and
images you could have seen.
R/S: What about the Unfortunate Spectacle of Violent SelfDestruction?
MARK: That was a little more thematic and consistent
throughout; I'd been thinking all along that this
should be a show about accidents. That's kinda what it
was about. There was a lot of equipment there that had
accidents; a lot of equipment was destroyed I tried to
make sure that the things that were destroyed were as
helpless as possible. Things were really tied down,
roped up, like the big skeletal man, Flippy Man, that
got hauled way up in the air and then crashed.. and
the robot thing whose heads kept blowing up ... and
the catapault t1ring at the huge face. Just all these
things, like the guy getting hit in the head with a rock
who tried to sue me ... breaking the girl's windshield
with the ballbearings that got thrown into the blower
... accidents. I emptied a t1ve-pound bag into this big
blower; the bearings went past where people were and
broke the windshield of a ear.

.:, .'

j.i.;.:;.c~.,.~ ~

. ,' .



1 Ox1 O' face-prop with moving jaw prior to its destruction. televised live on network TV. 6-26-81. (Photo: M. Pauline)


.. ,


..... '.







.... :,,"..







Reactionary! Mind show?

MARK: When I first went there to put up posters, G.
Gordon Liddy was walking towards me and I looked at

What about the organic robots?

That's just another phase. Dead animalsthings that are dead-make people feel funny. Then I
thought, Well if things that are dead make people feel
funny, then what are people going to think if they see
things that are definitely dead, but are moving around
and look like they're alive? When we first made the
little robot for the Night of the Succubus, that's when
me and Monte Cazazza started on a new trend
R/S: That robot elicited a rather strong reaction-someone
attacked it with a chairMARK: That robot became a big star- he was in
theater, lV, in the paper one time. Monte wanted a
prop for this show he and Factrlx were doing. He had
made a dart gun already; we were talking about it and I
said, Why don't you make a robot with meat parts? And
he goes, Yeah! Sowe got all these meat parts and sewed
them onto this robot. We used pigs feet, pig hide, and a
cows head and bolted it onto this little fellow who
kinda looked like a pig- it had a motor on it and when
you turned the motor on it would just vibrate and
shake like he was sick, like he maybe had a fever. His
little paws were hanging down in front and kind of
drawn up in back and his back was twisted in a funny
way. One of his paws had a little cable attached to it,
and if you've ever seen an animal that's been injured
(like hit by a car) that's the motion we got. Then his
arm would hit his head and make his head turn to the
side. We had him wrapped up in butcher paper on the
stage- I cut the butcher paper offwith my butcher suit
on, and Monte started shooting it with exploding
darts. Factrlx and Monte made a goodvideotape ofthat.

Did anything unusual happen at the Mysteries oj the

him and said, "Hello, Mr. Liddy. I'm a real big fan of
yours," and I gave him one of my posters. And he said
(with a quizzical smile), "Thank you." I couldn't
believe it.
G. Gordon Liddy's so funny, such a little macho guy.
But he's a cool guy- he doesn't say anything stupid,
he's not a jerk. He gets a little carried away sometimes.
I like his stories. Like the IU"St thing he did when he
came into prison was f1nd the biggest guy in there and
get into a f1ght with him-he said, Then no one will
bother you anymore, they'll think you're crazy-no
one bothers a crazy person.
R/S: How did you blow apart your right hand?
MARK: I was preparing a rocket motor for a show. I
had a pretty good instruction manual, and was finishing one of the processing stages which involved mixing the propellant, casting it, and then removing the
mandrill which is a cylinder of metal that you put
down the center of the propellant-you have to take
that out after it cures. I'd tested the propellant by hitting it with a sledge hammer- it didn't seem too sensitive. To get this rod out ofthe center, I thought I'd tap it
out with a hammer. I went outside, made a little
wooden dowel to f1t on top ofit, and started tapping on
the dowel with a hammer. Then it got stuck, and I said,
Dh fuck, and then I hit it a little harder, and it moved
some. Then I hit it again, and it just blew up, and it
really blew up- blew me back about 2 or 3 feet away. I

Piggty-wiggty: the first attempt at mating meat with machinery. Equipped with one fully articulated right foreleg and a shuddering mechanism.
Photo shows subject impaled by darts fired by Monte Cazazza. "Night of the Succubus," Ed Mock Dance Studio. 1981. (Photo: Jim Jocoy)

~.' ':~

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.. ~.: :I.":'::."~".::'
':":; '.:i.




looked up and I was laying on the ground and blood
just went in a sheet of red over my eyes. And then I
shook it out of my eyes and looked at my hand, 'cause
my hand felt funny, and all I could see was just the
bones on my hand; there was no skin on any of the
bones. Then they took me to the hospital and put me
out and that was it
None of the shrapnel hit me, so all I lost was a few
fingers. More than anything I had lost time-all that
time spent in the hospital, having to learn to work
again with one hand. I had to think about what kind of
state I was in that allowed that to happen. I don't really
consider it an accident, it was just a stupid mistake.
Why do you do things that are really dumb? You just
get in a funny mood and these things start to
happen ....
In terms of microsurgery, it turns out that some of
the best surgeons are in San Francisco General Hospital just two blocks from my house. Over a period of7 or
8 months they're in the process of assembling what
they can of my hand, to give me the basic functions: to
pinch, to grasp. Those type of operations are basically
experimental. They've done a real good job. It's still
hard to climb fences; it's hard to carry liVe-gallon
buckets, you know. But it didn't take as long as I
thought it would to be able to do things again. Like, I
drove my motorcycle over here.
R/S: How'd you do that?
MARK: I hitched up the front brake and the back
brake to the footpedal so you can stop fast, because you
can't with just the back brake.

What day was the accident?

MARK: June 12, 1982.
BOYD: Haven't you already been water-skiing?
MARK: Yeah. And welding too- I've made about four
hundred bucks this week. You can work almost as fast.
R/S: The last time I saw you, you were pretty worried about
how you'd make money.
MARK: Yeah, but then I got all these jobs and I just
had to do them. So I guess I decided that I could do it. I
was just having self-pity for myself when I talked to
you. But you can't do anything when you think those
things-that's a mental handicap.
I worry more about having accidents. I don't want to
have any more accidents, but I've always really worried about accidents. I've always spent a lot of time
thinking about all the awful things that could happen
to me- I thought about it all the time. I either thought
about doing awful things to other people, or the awful
things that could happen to me. Every day I spent
about an hour thinking about that, for years, ever since
I was 7 or 8. You know, the things you daydream
about-well, that was the 2 things I daydreamed
Now that I've had an accident, I still worry about
things like that. But I never had an accident before, I
never got hurt before, ever, in anyway. I never got sick.
I almost got hurt hundreds of time but nothing ever
happened to me, it was just almost It was justalways a
close call-more exciting than anything else.
But after it happens to you, it just teaches you that
some things really are dangerous, and some things
aren't. It doesn't mean that you can't do the same
things you did before, you just have to know that there
are better ways to do things, to keep yourself from

getting surprises. But how you can think about: How

am I going to avoid having a bad thing happen to me?
It's really stupid to spend a lot of time thinking about
that. You don't prevent those kind of things, you just
don't let them happen.
The accident hasn't changed any of the kind of
things I would do- I certainly don't think I'm going to
do any safer things than I did before. I just won't do
stupid things. Making this rocket motor was just
stupid. I just went out and bought 3 rocket motors
yesterday, and 3 of those together would have been
almost as powerful as one of these big motors I was
making. I just wanted to make one, it was sort of like a
dare, you know-"I can make helicopters, I can make
other stuff, I ought to be able to make a rocket motor."
And I was wrong. Because those kinds of chemical
combinations are far too dangerous-they're just
totally unpredictable.
You occasionally read in the papers about how
rocket motors blow up just spontaneously. Rocket
motors basically consist of an oxidizer- some kind of
chemical that has lots of free oxygen atoms that are
very easily released by any kind of heat; and very, very
densely saturated fuels; and catalyzers that make the
fuels burn even faster when they mix with the oxygen.
And that's what I made-I made a whole concoction
like that, and it just doesn't take much to make it go off.
When a company makes a rocket motor, they have a
whole system-all their buildings are spaced very far
apart, and everything that can possibly be done
A palm reading featuring Eric Werner's (of SRL) fully automated
mechanical arm. (Photo: Bobby Adams)


remotely is done remotely. That's kind of what you

have to have ....
R/S: Do you think of yourself more as an inventor than an
MARK: Thinking of yourself as anything, but specifically thinking of yourself (say, as an artist because
that's what everyone wants to think anybody who tries
to get across ideas is) in terms of what other people
think ofyou is just a demoralizing thing. So I try not to
think of myself as an artist-no doubt about it, I am a
commentator. I process information that comes my
way, and control what information comes my way to a
certain extent, as much as anybody can, and make a
comment based on what's been coming around... just
because that's something I like to do. People like to do
things that are fun for them to do. At least it's a fun
thing for me to do; it's a good game to try to communicate, just to make some kind of a comment on what
you've been thinking about. Collecting information,
trying to verify it, and writing up some kind of a conclusion. In my case it just happens to be with machinery, performance equipment, whatever it is.
R/S: So the accident didn't do anything to really discourage
MARK: I don't think so. I just feel really bad that it's
been such a long time since the last show; that just
kind of makes me feel sick when I think about it. You
don't really get stopped unless you have a really bad
accident. It's just one more annoying thing to think

interesting-it's not any different than any of the

other things that bother me- it's like they bother me
but I can still do whatever it is I want to do. It's not any
worse than any ofthe other things, and in a way it's not
any more real than any of the other things- I mean
any more real in the sense that it stops you from
getting what you really want to get.
R/S: What limits your shows?
MARK: Money. Before, when I needed something, I
could always just find it somewhere for free, but when
I started doing more technical things there was just no
way-I started having to depend on other peoplethat was very bad, and I've definitely moved away from
that. But, limitations-I would always have liked
things to go more perfect. I'd like to have lots more
time to set these shows up- 3 or 4 days. And that goes
back to money- ifl had more money itwould be more
possible to have that kind of time to set up, but I don't.
I just bend limitations that have come up. Once all
the machines had to stay in one place and none of
them could really move around, so I made machines
that could drive around Then I ran into the problem of
too many cords to control the things that moved
around, so I made machines that could move around
by themselves- radio-controlled equipment ....
Then I did a lot of work with things hanging from
cables, to sort of bring a more three-dimensional feeling to it. I guess the latest things are a more technical
approach- the burning laser, and now I've gotten into

Matthew Heckert fires his hand-held flamethrower at a roomful of imaginary assailants. See schematic drawing of flamethrower elsewhere in
this publication. (Photo: SF ExaminerlNicole Bengiveno)

about. I'm the kind of person that's just annoyed,

anyway-I'm an annoyed person. Everything bothers
me, all the time. Now I just have another annoyance,
and it's turned into just something else that bothers
I look at my hand and I just say, "Oil, man, what the
fuck?" But it doesn't really bother me-it's

flying machines- having aerial robots that can fly

around It can go on from there-I have millions of
ideas if I could do them; there's enough ideas where
you could keep doing more or less the same thing for
years, or at least as long as I live ....
R/S: Why did you make the helicopter?
MARK: I wanted to make a big flying, hovering thing






1 ;:~~}{f.lJl~

a. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
since I was about eight years old ... a saucer I could sit
in, that had propeller blades with a little pusher prop
in the back. I wanted to make one really bad... then I
gave up and just made a boat in shop class instead. I
couldn't have ever done it before, because I didn't have
the equipment. But I ended up with a full-enough
machine shop where I could make something like that
and have it function effectively.
R $: What are you going to do with this helicopter?
MARK: Maybe the first time it'll just be a bomber. It'll
have a bomb rack underneath; it'll be able to drop
powerful explosives, one at a time, on different
targets. Eventually I'd like to have a claw underneath,
so it can descend on an object, pick it up, and then
drop it from f"Jity feet and wreck it-that kind of thing.
I've thought of having spikes as landing gear- a big set
of spikes so it could hover and then just drop on something and spear it with all these spikes.
Physically, it makes so much noise, so much wind
and air blast, that if you want to move people's attention from one side of the show to another, you can just
move the helicopter and everyone will look at it.
R/S: Where'd you get the helicopter blades?
MARK: From Oklahoma. I talked to this guy on the
phone and he goes, "Well, I got a whole barrel ofthese
blades out back in the yard, lemme go look." And he
goes and looks and says, "Yeah, I got a whole barrel of
Hughes 500 blades-you wanna buy some of those?" I
said, "Oh ... kay." He says, "I'll sell 'em to you for

think there's something that's probably good about

art. And people don't think they have to understand
the arts-all they have to do is support them.
I think people in the United States feel like they're
obligated to understand art whenever they see it. And
if they don't understand it, it just makes them know
that they don't like it because they don't understand it.
The problem, ofcourse, in the f"11"St place is them thinking that they have to understand it- it's something that
has nothing to do with them, basically... or something that has too much to do with them. Art usually
has too much to do with what people think, or nothing
to do with them-either way, it doesn't work out very
BOYD: I think it was good at Project Artaud where
you had films of your other machines- because you
got the complete impression of the machines but you
didn't have to move those big huge things thereMARK: yeah.... You know, nobody ever calls up and
says, Will you do a show here? Ever. Anybody who
makes you an offer makes a stupid offer, and then they
never call you back again. I have to withhold hope for
that kind of thing.
R/S: Who makes those loud soundtracks at your shows?
MARK: I made just the real simple ones; I have no

twenty bucks each. You're not gonna use these on a

real helicopter now, are you?" I said, "NO, no." He said,
"Well, I don't have any papers on 'em- you can get in a
lot of trouble for usin' those on a helicopter. Those
were used in the military but there's no papers on any
of 'em-I would never put 'em in a real helicopter."
I said, "Okay; you man 'em to me." The biggest helicopter graveyard in the United States is in Alva,
Oklahoma-miles long like a big auto wrecking yard,
but all helicopters, I guess.
R/S: How did you happen to get a laser?
MARK: This doctorate student at Stanford had just
seen the Folsom show, and he figured I could maybe
use some help. He called me up and said, "How would
you like to make a laser? It'll be real easy." He got me all
the parts, but it just wasn't easy. That took a long time.
R!S: How could you take your act to, say, Europe?
MARK: If I was going to try to do something in
Europe, I'd approach it differently. I'd probably just
bring over a lot of radio-control equipment and get
people to give me some big pieces of equipment like
bulldozers, stuff like that. And maybe I could put
rocket launchers on them so they could have fights
with each other. That's how I'd try to get around itjust use things there. That's a lot to ask, but people do
funny things for art in Europe- they'll do things they
would never do here. I mean, if you tell that to the
mayor of some town, maybe he'd just think, "Oh
yeah- kunst!"
I think iliat people in Europe at least have some kind
of an idea that they should support the arts; that the
arts are a good thing, and that the artists aren't just like
bums who can't work because they're too lazy. They

pretensions about being able to do anything in particular in sound. If I do it myself I just end up borrowing
it-maybe I'll listen to the 1V and record the things
that appeal to me, and then organize them in a tape
and play the tape back real loud. That's one way.
Monte helped me work on a couple soundtracks, and
Factrix did one soundtrack, and Matty made a couple
of the soundtracks up, and I've worked with Matty on
some of the soundtracks, and Matty's worked with
Bond-you know, just different people. I don't ever try
to do anything fancy, because it's just not my cup of
tea. I think the sound is really important but I don't
ever want people to think that I have any pretensions
about being a band or something. So I avoid the situation by being very crude.
RlS: Did you do the art on your walls?
MARK: Sure. I went to school and majored in Visual
Arts and Experimental Literature. I read a lot ofweird
books and did weird things in the more established
formats- graphics, drawings, films, theater- but
always with the same type of attitude- the attitude has
not really changed ever, for me-it's always been
pretty much the same bad attitude. It's just thatyou're older, you figure out what's better, I guess.
R/S: Do you think money would ultimately just make you
MARK: You look at people who were supposed to be
unconventional; when they got a lot of money they
became conventional. Because they just got too close
to the people with money-you get too close to those
people and they destroy you. But it's not the mom"
that made people change, it's their association with
people who are really consen;ative who are handling

How would you like to make a

laser? It'll be real easy ..


Posing with the Mr. Satan robot. l to R: Mark Pauline. Eric Werner. Matthew Heckert.
(Photo: Bobby Adams)

:: . '.,- --~-~ . ;<;:-..


': ..\.

this money. That's what makes people change.

Look at the movie industry; lookwhat happens when
somebody like Tobe Hooper (Texas Chainsaw Massacre) or Wes Craven (The Hills Have Eyes) starts to get
money-then they make these really stupid movies.
And they even say in print, "Well, this is the kind of
movie I always wanted to make." They become like
zombies, you know; they just get influenced too much
by those people.
R/S: What books influenced you?
MARK: I just read The Lost Ones by Samuel Beckett.
Odd literature has always been the most influential
thing in my mind's development, def'mitely. I've read
pretty much all the American avant-garde writers-of
course, Burroughs- I read all his books when I was in
college.J.G. Ballard, I've read all of his books. Thomas
Pynchon; Barth; Walter Abish-he's pretty funny. All
kinds of weird science-fiction books-Kill Test-any
kind of unusual literature- Beckett; Marguerite
Duras-all her books.
I use literature to maintain a certain sort of order in
my mind If I don't read literature that has something
to do with my interests, the kind of cynical ideas I have,
the structure of my mind starts to fall apart, and I can't
think effectively anymore ... my own ideas. That's
what I do- I read and pretty much strip the structure
out of books-I use it to shore up my own faulty system. For some reason I need that; I have to have literature to be able to function correctly. That's how I
trained my mind to work in the first place: through
reading, and analyzing what I read.
I started reading weird books when I was 10 or 11that's what made me realize there were other ways of
looking at things. My mom started bringing these
weird books home from the bookstore she worked at
and said, "Well, why don't you read The Crying ofLot
49?" when I was like, IH2 years old. Or she'd bring
home KurtVonnegut books: "These are good for youyou'll like Mr. Rosewater. I started reading these books
and came to the conclusion that there was a whole
different set of values that had nothing to do with
anything I'd ever seen-I'd always only seen horror
movies and real straight stuff. I didn't know there was
anything different that people really thought. That
there was,like, a real voice of dissent .... Some people
I like more- the tendency is to like the literature that
strikes more chords in me, you know. They're probably the writers people would expect me to say, so I
won't. But I read a lot.
If I don't read, bad things happen. It probably has
something to do with this accident- that I wasn't reading enough. I think that's definitely true- I was working too much and not reading enough. So I got into a
wrong state of mind
R/S: Well, the accident then forced you to read a lotMARK: It did, I read a lot in the hospital.
R/S: How do you think horror movies have influenced you?
MARK: Well, I started going to them ... and eventually I really started to understand what fear was. Like,
I'd see Red Skelton on TV and everybody in the whole
room would be laughing at him and I'd just go, Wlry are
they laughing? He's notfunny. This is really stupid, it's
not funny. And then I'd watch and see all the comedians, and everyone'd laugh at them and people would

say funny things on TV, and then they'd have that

canned laughter, and I'd go, Wlry did they think that's
funny? That's not funny.
But then I saw this show on Black Humor, and I
realized that Black Humor is like when really awful
things happen to people. Like someone breaks their
leg, and you think it's funny. And then I realized that
horror ffims were comedy. I used to be really scared of
horror ffims, but when I was about 8 I realized that
horror ffims were like comedy for some people. And I
watched them real differently after that- I'd just laugh
when I'd see the really bad things, instead ofcowering,
Like someone would get their head cut off and it'd just
be like Hat Hat Horror films became a real form of
entertainment for me-they sort of made up for my
not thinking that other things were funny.
But then I used to get confused, because really bad
things used to happen to people and I'd laugh at them,
but then I'd feel bad that I laughed at them. Like one
time there was this big pile of logs ... and I said to my
brothers, "Let's give Bruce a ride in this shopping cart!"
And they went, "OK!" So we totally stuffed him in this
shopping cart and pushed him down this big log, and
then he fell about 15 feet down to the ground and the
shopping cart fell on top of him and knocked both of
his front teeth out. And I just laughed! I laughed and
laughed and laughed Our brothers laughed a little bit,
but then they kind of flipped out. And then I felt so bad
that I'd laughed at him, but it was so funny that it had
knocked his teeth out.... It really used to confuse me
when things like that happened, because I knew that
they were funny ... but it seemed bad to laugh at
them ....
R/S: Your drawings look almost like photorealism.
MARK: Yeah, I wanted to learn how to draw real fast,
so I learned how to in a few months. I justlearned how
to look at things .... I never ever did any abstract stuff,
because that just seemed so stupid-that's what you
think of as "artists"- just kind of a joke; I thought that
was really bad I only drew things as real as I couldthat's the only way I ever did graphics.
I just did really weird drawings, sort of surreal drawings, more conceptual things, not even surreal, just
more ideas- one idea or another idea done in that
mode. Because I didn't really have any particular
modes of my own at that time; to pretend that I did
would have just been a lie. So I just used modes that I
knew about, and tried to get original ideas.
R/S: So you painted those huge faces and other targets used
in your shows?
MARK: Yeah, I can draw them really fast. I can draw
one of those 10xl0' paintings in about 3 or 4 hours. I
project an outline up against a canvas or cardboard,
and then I just fill it in.
R/S: With an overhead projector?
MARK: It's much faster.
BOYD: Norman RockweU uses them!
MARK: Everybody uses those; if you're in a hurry,
how else can you do it? I used to always look at things
and draw them, but after I realized ... I just said, Forget
it-that's just another ruse.
BOYD: Yeah, there's this weird idea people have
about "cheating." How can you cheat?
MARK: I know, it's just a joke. Who cares about the



, 1 .

R/S: How did you deface that huge billboard with Telly
SavaJas advertising Black Velvet?
MARK: I just drove around and then I saw that
billboard- it was a hand-painted one so I knew that
they weren't going to change it for a long time. And il
was on the freeway, too. I just saw it, and it said, "Feel
The Velvet, Baby" and I looked at it and I said, NO! Not
Feel The Velvet, Feel the Pain. I knew that Feel The
Pain was the hidden meaning-you had to drink the
scotch because you're in pain, right, so you wouldn't
feel pain anymore. So I wanted to say that you
shouldn't not feel the pain, you should feel it.
So I just changed Telly's face around, made all these
parts up so he would look more convincing, so he
would look more like he would be saying that, and
then threw in a few other odds and ends, like some
weird little monster dog jumping out of the picture- I
pasted that on. And had some guy with a gun in the
corner, and then gave Telly one of those mouths from
dental school opening wide.
R/S: Didn't you have to climb up high?
MARK: We had to climb on top of a building, and use
a ladder to get up to the billboard. We used ropes to
hang off the billboard and change it. Fetish Times
printed a picture of it because of the S&M
The first night we went there we got about half of it
stuck up and then the cops came, because I guess they

4 Sil" :JrJnrisctl <!lIrollidr

* ..

thought we were trying to break into the building. We

tricked 'em and got away from them, and then I went
back the next night by myself and stuck the eyes up
and some of the mouth and finished it up. It was in the
Chronicle the next day. And I had a warning up there
saying that they couldn't take it down before "x"
number of days. They left it up, I guess, 4 or 5 days.
They took down one of the other billboards that we
did 'way before they were supposed to, so we went
around and fIlled up fire extinguishers with red paint
and painted Kll.L! on about twelve billboards all over
town, in letters about twelve feet high. And then my
neighbor flipped out that week and killed somebody!
He killed some guy he didn't even know; the guy was
leaving work next door and he shot him in the back
with a .357 magnum right through a window- he
didn't even open the window. And the window still
has a hole in it.
R/S: He just shot the guy randomly?
MARK: I think he thought he was someone else he
had gotten in an argument with about his dogs, a week
before. He flipped out and killed the guy... 'cause he
kinda had the same color hair.
R/S: ... A lot of your machines are constructed from useful
machines that really were abandoned, that were not being
used by the people who originally had themMARK: Temporarily abandoned-just no one was
around when I got 'em-let's just put it that way! But
yeah, that's definitely a part of it, too: taking equip-

Thtn. Jan. 25, 1979

lelly With leeth

Someone hos defaced a billboard visible from the Central
freeway near the Boy Bridge. Among the changes, television's

Kojok - Telly Savalos - got new teeth. And the message was
changed from 'feel the velvet' to 'feel the pain.'

ment and remanufacturing it, turning it against its

engineers' better wishes. Making things out of it it was
never intended to do. I think there's a nice form of
justice there: turning something into something it
shouldn't be. It confuses an issue ofthese things in the
first place, because any time you take something that's
so utilitarian, and do something non-utilitarian with
it, it's just confusing-it just blurs the reality of what
you're doing even more. Just makes it harder to pin
R/S: Have you ever been caught?
MARK: Not really. A few months ago they kinda
caught us with all this weird stuff we got from this big
factory. Like a gallon of pure sulphuric acid, tons of
laboratory equipment, tools, chucks, glue guns, some
chemicals, thermometers, metal shears-all sorts of
weird stuff. We piled it into my truck. These railroad
cops saw us leave, but they didn't see us pile it in there,
and they followed us and pulled us over. They looked
in the truck and said, "Where'd you get all this stuffYOU srOLE TIllS STUFF!" "No, we didn't steal it, it was
in the truck the whole time." So they called the real
cops who took us in to the station. and all the guys

there thought we were really weird- they kept asking

me and Matty if we were in the Hitler Youth, because
we had really short hair.
They were nice to us; they just joked with us the
whole time. All these guys were going, "Ab, they're not
guilty, let's let 'em go! These guys are all right. Let's just
get these guys outta here; we got enough trouble-we
don't need to Cuck around with guys like these." They
were looking at all the stuff in the boxes, going, ''Wow,
what are you going to do with this?" We just said we
used it for our experiments ....
The railroad cops kept trying to trick us into signing
these confessions. But when they walked out of the
room, the other cops came up to me and Matty and
said, "Hey look, don't pay any attention to what those
guys say. They're not even real cops-you saw when
they came in, we made 'em take off their guns. We're
just going to let you go. You can get your stuff back if
you call this place in five days."
And then the railroad cops tried to trick us again! We
just said, "Look, we didn't take this stuff, it's our stuff.
We own it, we didn't break into anywhere." They kept
trying to do these Hawaii-Five-O cop tricks on us.
Then a cop took us back and said, "Look, we're real
sorry about this; we're sorry 'hat we hadyou in here so
long. If it would have been us, we would have just let
you go, because even ifyou did steal that, it's just weird
stuff, and we just don't care about it-we got better
things to do." My truck wasn't registered, andMatty had
warrants out for him-they didn't even say anything
about it.
Five days later we called up and the detective
assigned to the property said, ''This stuff is yours." But

then he goes, "Well, the engineer at that brewery over

there seems to think that some of the stuff might have
come out of there." And Matty says, "Look. It didn't
come out ofthere. It's ours, and I want it back." The guy
goes, ''Well, I have to call this guy back and check with
him and see what he thinks." The guy calls back five
minutes later and says, ''Well, I talked with the engineer out there and he says that some ofthat stuff might
have been his, but he wasn't SUTe. So, you can have it
back." So we went down there and got it back. We had
picked stuff that didn't have any identifying marks on
it, so they couldn't prove it was theirs; they just had to
let us go.
That was the closestwe came, but it was still nothing.
You just have to be kinda careful, but that's like one
time out of a thousand- at least seven or eight
hundred times I've gone out and got stuff and got
caught once. We've done things a lot crazier than that,
in broad daylight.


by Anne Janowitz
What events in your childhood appear as turning
MARK: Well, there are several that have really always
haunted me, that have led me to believe they're important. When I was four or five years old, I was out in the
backyard playing with these little stemmed flowers
that you could spin around-they had like little propeller blades that would float to the ground. I started
thinking about them, and thinking about spaceships,
and I realized they were like spaceships. It scared me,
because I thought, ''Wait a minute-I never thought
about that before." I thought that someone put the idea
in my head. And from then 011, whenever I would think
anything that had to do with outer space or spaceships
or monsters- I thought that someone else was making
me think about this.
When I used to see horror movies, I'd sometimes
have nightmares afterwards. And I thought that the
monsters were making me afraid of them, making me
think about them. My mother gave me this clay, and I
started working with this clay, making little things out
of it. I came to realize that I had to do it, because these
monsters, these beings that I was representing, were
making me represent them. I realized that I had to do
It because I was serving them. So from about the age of
five till I was ten years old, every day I had to- and
then it became connected with taking a shit, somehow.
I just started putting these clay things on the back of
the toilet-monsters, and making these very detailed
models of other planets, grapefruit-sized, with mountains on them, etc. I invented this whole universe- I
knew it was to pay tribute to these people who were
always watching, watching everything I did. I had to
please them.
At that point I was confused with like, religion,
because they told me what religion was and that god
was like these things that were making me do this. But
then I learned that god was really evil, and thatI hated
him, because I started blaming him for anything bad
that happened to me. Then I realized there was a difference between god and these other beings from
other planets-that they were good, and that god was



evil, because he made things happen like the wind

blow against me when I was riding my bicycle to
school, and he made me get hurt, and it was his fault
and I hated him. Then I quit believing in god.
I never told anybody about this; nobody ever knew
about it- but these were the kind of things that were
important to me when I was young, because it made
me do things. Instead of being like other kids and
going out and fooling around, I really thought that
there was something I bad to do, that they were making me do this, and that it was really important that I do
this. There was no point in telling anybody about it- it
just contributed to my thinking that people were really
different than me.
The kids in the playground, I didn't like to play with
them because they weren't like me. So I just hung
around with my brothers, almost always. I liked feeling that these beings were in control of me. . . . It still
seems kinda like that-I didn't become an artist
because I wanted to become one- it wasn't like, "I'll
become a mechanic." I just sort of ended up doing it,
and then I couldn't really stop doing it. I did it because
there was nothing else I could really do; there was
nothing else that made me-not happy, but made me
feel like I was doing the right thing. There's not really
such a thing as achieving happiness-that's just like a
lie, but you can, like, do the perfect thing. It's possible
for people to achieve a perfect function, to achieve
total efficiency as a human being. That's what's

R S: When you were a kid. were there things that bothered

MARK: There were things that bothered me a lot! I
was involved in my own world. It wasn't like I hung
around with really bad kids until I got to be about 11. In
junior high school I was in a gang, the Fuckers Island
Gang. We had boats 'cause none of us were old enough
to drive. We had these souped-up boats; we used to
wear Nazi helmets, stuff like that, and go around and
have wars- throw rocks at each other from these
boats. We used to have military-type maneuvers
against each other, and against other people in boats.
On our own island we had these wild parties- one
time some kid called a girl in our gang a whore, and we
went over and broke every window in his parents'
house, every window. About 30 kids. We were the only
gang that had a name in our whole town. We were like
really bad- I wasn't that bad. I stole anything-a lot of
cars, stuff like that, but there were other kids we hung
around that were really bad-they were like, incredible. We just did total mindless destruction.
R/S: Did you have any ideas of what you wanted to be'
MARK: I didn't really think about what I wanted to do
until I was pretty old- until I started doing it, really.
R/S: Did you have any political notions then?
MARK: Yeah. I became really violent and extremely
destructive after I got out ofCatholic grade school and
realized that they had been lying to me all this time,
and that I had kind of believed it. That made me really
mad. So then I got in with these really bad people and

Flamethrower scorches 4xS' sheet of glass triggering its explosion. From Noise. a performance in Golden Gate Park opposite the King Tut
Exhibit. Sept 21, 1979. (Photo: Janice Sangerman)

- :' ...

we went around terrorizing anybody we could-to

throw off the way things were working.
When I was 12 or 13 I became more involved with
ideas- that's when I really started to come to an understanding about the people that were running the
world- the people that were doing what they wanted
to to other people. I realized that I was one of the
people who was supposed to do what the other people
wanted me to do. And when I realized that, I just
immediately knew that it was really bad, really evil,
that there could be people like that that wanted me to
do such banal things.

At least seven or eight hundred

times I've gone out and got
stuff and got caught once.

Were you against the Vietnam War then?

I liked war! But I thought anybody who went
was just a dope.
RlS: What did you think of hippies?
MARK: I hated hippies. Hippies were for peace, and I
wasn't for peace, I was for death and destruction. We
didn't dress flower power-no way, we were like heavies, biker kids, more like that-tight pants, mean.
R!S: What kind of music did you like?
MARK: jimi Hendrix, The Fugs, Frank Zappa, stuff
like that. Kind of sleazy music. The Doors.
R/S: Do you still feel connected with your adolescence?
MARK: Yeah, totally. That's all it's been. It's been like
one scene to another scene-they're all the same.
After I became about 17 I never paid any attention to
things like music, because I hated all the music that
happened after that, until I was about 19-then I liked
the Motown music.
Now I like people who have intentions that .correspond somewhat to mine-like Factrlx, Z'evespecially now that there isn't much going on that has
any connection with me, with what I do.
R/S: What do you think the "industrial scene" is about?
MARK: It always seemed to me about people who take
forms, and deal with them in a way that perverts them,
somehow. It's the choice o.lthe things as well-almost
always things that have some kind of connection to
high technology, to the trappings of modern
R/S: Have you ever been attracted to Eastern philosophy?
MARK: Not at all. It's just too passive. I just think it's a
waste to think of existence in terms of being passive
about it. It's a waste of life. I just think that too much of
it looks towards death as like, a good thing, and
equates it with something that's better than life ... regardless of how much it goes on to say that death is like
an equal thing to life, and that death leads to life. I just
think that's a cop-out, a ruse. The actual fact is, it's like a
passivity that just doesn't work-it's ineffective, it's
wrong for this day and age. It doesn't lend itself to
modern society, existing in the world as it is now, as
maybe it ~ed to in an agrarian kind ofworld. So that's
why it's never held much of an interest to me, other
than the fact of the obvious connotations of hippies
being into it- it must be wrong if they were interested

in it!
R S: Back to your childhood-did you have any pets?
MARK: Me and my brothers used to collect a lot of
animals; we never had too many pets. There's a lot of
animals in Florida, and the pet stores would buy them
from you. So we used to have tons and tons of animals
in our garage, and sell them to the pet stores. I never
got too attached to any of them. We had 30 to 40 hamsters around; we'd breed 'em. We always had lots of
different kinds of snakes, iguanas; lots ofweird turtles.
We used to raid birds' nests and steal the babies and try
to raise them.
R/S: What was growing up in Florida like?
MARK: There's lots of weird places in Florida,
because in the '20s they really built it up. Before the
bust came, they had so much money they put a lot of
money into these really weird places. You'll find
incredible buildings- the Coral Gardens, castles built
out in the middle ofnowhere, coveredwith vines. A lot
of places were abandoned when they took a highway
and re-routed it into an Interstate. Hundreds ofhouses
are abandoned. We used to look through a lot of
houses and find some cool stuff....
RlS: What's your earliest remembered crime?
MARK: I broke into the house next door. I used to
break into houses a lot when I was little. I think one of
the earliest ones was: me and my brother broke into
our neighbor's house (I was about three-and-a-haIf
years old) and just walked around. I knew it was really
bad to do that, and he knew more than I did- he was
afraid, but I told him that it was okay. We just walked
around and looked at stuff, never did take anything. I
just remember the clock by the bed.
RlS: When was the first crime you got caught for?
MARK: Hmmm. I was about ten years old; me and my
friend took a propane torch and we used it to burn
through the plastic on a bubble gum machine, and we
stole all the bubble gum. We got caught by the police,
and they took us to jail. The police had to chase us for
hours; we almost got away from them so many times,
and they had all these squad cars. My mother didn't
really understand why; she was puzzled, not so much
that we would steal things, but that we used a
blowtorch-I think that really puzzled her-and then
just took gum. We had to melt it because it was a kind of
plastic you couldn't break-it was impact resistant.
R!S: What were your favorite lV shows?
MARK: Outer Limits and Night GaUery.
RlS: What about now?
MARK: Monster movies, and the news. I like ABC
because it's more sensationalized; I like the guy with
the funny haircut, Ted Koppel.
R/S: What were your favorite comic books?
MARK: The horror ones, like Eerie and The Swamp
Monster. Metal Men was really good.
R!S: What was the first important sex experience?
MARK: Probably the' most interesting one was this
girl who really wanted to have sex with me. We were
15. We kept trying to fuck all the time but it was really
hard- her pussy was too tight and stuff like that and it
was really weird because we wanted to do this really
bad, it wasn't like we thought that it was wrong-we
just wanted to do it. It took us two or three times, and
then finally we did it. It was interesting, and then it




:: . ... .


became def"tnitely more exciting soon afterwards.

R/S: Whar's your sexual orientarion now?
MARK: I like girls. Totally, I'm def"tnitely heterosexual. I'm not bisexual, and never really have been, or
homosexual. I especially dislike clones ... homos as
they are these days. They were interesting in the '70s
because they were part ofthe counter-culture, but now
they're certainly very dull, middle-class, and I don't
like that.
R/S: Ideal relationship?
MARK: Just to have a girl to be really good friends
with, and hang around with, and have wild sex with
and-just mostly have a companion that I can count
on. that's of the opposite sex, that you have sex with.
R/S: Whar's your social life now?
MARK: I really only hang around with the people I
work with on the shows. I spend a long time workingI don't really have much of a social life. Occasional
parties. Most of the time I spend at home with my
R/S: Do you write down ideas for your performances?
MARK: Not really, I just think of them and remember
them. I have like a photographic memory for any ideas




I ,_,
I t~~



.... _-,







I think of. I remember all of them. I never lack ideas;

now I'm certain there's an endless supply.
R/S: Did you ever play an instrument when you were a child?
MARK: Never. I neverwas interested in music. I never
tried to playa musical instrument; I never wanted to.
R/S: Any hobby?
MARK: The only hobby I have that doesn't directly
connect to the kind of shows I do is probably shooting
guns. I like to shoot guns a lot. I go out shooting quite
RlS: How would you describe where you live?
MARK: It's a junkyard, naturally. It's justa place at the
end of its rope, that was once a thriving industrial site
where they made scaffolds for the Bay Bridge-it's just
gone downhill from there .... I like to live by myself; I
have to have my own place. (Matty comes in with a
flamethrower and demonstrates it.) I made the
cylinder and the tank; he made the electronics.
RlS: If you could make a model thar was about 1/4 that size
and sell ir to the women's movementMARK: We were thinking about marketing it: Burn
your attackers beyond recognition!
R/S: I'd feel really safe if I had one of those-

The device detailed here is basically a handheld flamethrower. It will produce a blazing
flame up to 25 ft. A prototype has been testproven to be reliable, effective. and safe when
handled properly. Fuel requirements are satisfied with gasoline, ethyl ether, glo-fuel, or any
variety of flammable liquids. Fuel cell pressure
can be achieved with any compressor, tire
pump, or aerosol can.
Functioning is as follows: after filling the fuel
cell, it is pressurized to approximately 100 psi
(actual pressure will depend on nozzle diameter, fluid viscosity and the type of flame
desired). Depressing ignition switch G activates Timer circuit C which through the use of a
switching transistor allows power from batteries B to pulse through high voltage coil A which
produces its discharge across the gap between
o and M directly in front of fuel discharge nozzle E. Upon working lever F, pressurized fuel is
released from nozzle E and is thus ignited by the
spark between 0 and M.
-Matthew Heckert






A) High Voltage Coil

B) Batteries for HV Coil
C) Ignition Circuit
D) HV Discharge Mount
E) Fuel Discharge Nozzle
F) High Pressure Needle Valve
G) Ignition Switch
H) Fuel Cell
I) Pick-up Tube
J) Fuel Insertion Point
K) Fuel Cell Pressurizing Fitting
L) Battery for Ignition Circuit
M) Ground Point for HV Discharge

Flamethrower schematic: Dan Osborne.

. '.
'\: ,'0..~:' .~ ,. . ;

about six hundred people in that squat in the end.

Where would you like to live if you could live
MARK: I think this is a good place to have a headquarters. I'd like to live in the desert, though. The absence
of life appeals to me-I like the idea that everything
has to struggle to exist there, , . ,
R/S: What are your sleeping hours?
MARK: I sleep about eight hours a night, usually from
about 12-1 to about 8 in the morning. Sometimes when
I work on these shows I don't sleep very much for
about two weeks.
R/S: What's your favorite foods? Are you a vegetarian?
MARK: I don't really go out and buy meat-it's okay,
but I don't go out of my way to buy it. It doesn't really
thrill me that much. I like fish; I like seafood the best.
I'll eat just about anything.
R/S: What kind of clothing do you usually wear?
MARK: Second-hand Used clothing. I have never
bought new clothing, since I was about 11. I haven't
worn underwear either, since I was 10 or 11.
R/S: Did you have a djscussion about it with your mom?
MARK: No, I just told her I couldn't wear it anymore.
She said, "That's good, then I won't have to buy it
anymore for you."
R/S: Do you wear the same clothes for a performance that
you would any normal day?
MARK: Vb-huh. Sometimes I wear my dirty clothes;
they're my work clothes.
R/S: What do you think about your physical appearance?
MARK: I don't know. It's okay. I think that I look
weird, though. When I look at myself in the mirror, I
just think it's weird that I look that way, it's strange. I
don't really think of myself as "looking good"-it
appears to me that I look weird When I'm talking to
people I don't know, straight people especially, I
always feel that they probably think I'm crazy, just
because of the way I look and the way I act. The combination of those two things and my mannerisms probably convinces most people that I'm strange and not
R/S: Can you talk about the origin of Survival Research
MARK: Sure. In an early Soldier ofFortune there was
an ad for a real fly-by-night organization-they only
had that one advertisement, and after that I never saw
an ad for them again. A couple months later, I was
given a free page in a local magazine. I thought, OK, I'll
do an ad, but what am I going to call myself? Because
there were people helping me do activitiesmodifying billboards, that kind of thing. So I thought,
I'll just call it Survival Research Laboratories-I'll take
their name. So I made an ad for Survival Research
Laboratories, and ever since then that's just what it's
I don't do all the work, obviously; there are other
people. And it's good to have a name like that when
you're dealing with companies (which I have to do a
lot), and for publicity. I don't like the idea of people
saying, "Well, it's all Mark Pauline." I think it's better
because it makes it more confusing, plus it's just more
industrial-it's more in the spirit of the industrial
theme-of having a company, the whole mystique of
the organization ....

Eric Werner's mechanical hand emerges from its oil-filled aquarium

only to serve as an object of worship for three genuflecting,
mechanically-activated rabbits. (Photo: Bobby Adams)

It's a good terror weapon. I think it's illegal,

R/S: Would you ever make devices for a terrorist group if
they approached you?
MARK: I know what would happen-if they got
caught they'd all say that I gave them the stuff, and
then I'd get put in jail, while they would all get offeasy
like Patty Hearst....
R!S, Do you make any money off your performances?
MARK: Not really- think ofall the time, and the stuff.
R/S, How do you make money?
MARK: Sometimes I weld for a union- you make a lot
of money, twenty bucks an hour, almost, doing that
kind ofwork. In one week you can make seven or eight
hundred dollars. I have all these tools here and do
little jobs, get a couple hundred dollars here, a
hundred dollars there.
R/S: On the average, how much time per week doyou spend
doing straight work?
MARK: Not very much, about six or seven hours. I
don't need much to live on, and I don't pay for any of
that stuff-I just get it all.
R/S, Have you traveled much?
MARK: I was in England for awhile, Italy, ... There
wasn't much going on in England in 1974, but it was
kind of fun anyhow. I stayed in a Cornwall Terrace
squat, that giant one they had right next to the park.
We were about the first twenty people to break into
there-somebody who was English told us we could
live for free there. No one would move in right at first
because they thought the police were going to kick
them out, but we just went in and took over a whole
apartment building, with free electricity and water for
about eight months. It was really cool. There were


4. ....




1966) J.H.S. Member Fuckers Island Gang.
Initial drug experiences, severe delinquency.
1967) J.H.S. Member Fuckers Island Gang.
Increasing drug use, juvenile delinquency.
1968) J.H.S. Drugs, vandalism.
1969) Same, involved in group Goethe Gang
headed by charismatic J. Goethe. 8elief network included accepting/assuming death at
early age, extremes of drug use, hatred of any
other approach to existence.
1970) H.S. Motorcycles, drugs.
1971) Grad H.S. Worked on Harley Choppers,
rode motorcycles. Drugs.
1972-3) Worked various machine shops, factories, aerospace work for Eglin AF Base in Flo
Constructed F-II! aircraft target robots, missile
launchers, unidentifiable parts. Worked oilfields in Santa Barbara, CA as fabricatorrepairman.
1973) Began attending Eckerd College, St.
Petersburg, Flo
1974) Attended college in london, England.
lived 6 mos in Cornwall Terrace squat.
1975) Attended college, Italy. Film, still image
1976) Attended college, same as above.
1977) April: Art Exhibition. Invitations were
State of Fl Grand Jury Subpoena Forms complete with embossed stamp. lighting was
directed at Viewers' faces; static from wideband radio used as soundtrack.
June: Nearly halted college graduation
ceremony due to violently shredded gown
exposing black bikini, & boots & hair grease
mixed with fluorescent hot pink paint.
Sept: Arrived in San Francisco.
1978) April: Participated in SF's first Punk Art
Show, occurring at SFAI, featuring the
July: First billboard modification of Pizza
Advertisement at Columbus/Vallejo Sts.
Sept: Pasted up a 6xT drawing depicting a
woman in bondage.
Oct: Installation of threat billboard at
Columbus/Vallejo Sts. Collected "donations"
at anonymous PO Box.
Nov: Bank threat posters installed on Bank
of China, Columbus/Green Sts, and Wells
Fargo Bank, Geary/Arguello Sts. Due to violation of warning, mixture of urine/nitric acid
poured into safe deposit box at Wells Fargo
Dec: Third bank threat poster installed on
First Federal Bank in Sarasota Fl during family


A remotely-activated rocket launcher opens and fires, searing

the heads of an army of cardboard soldiers; then violently
impacts into a large unfortunate face situated thirty yards away,
as another radio-controlled rocket launcher prowls in the background. Kezar Pavilion, Dec 3, 1980. (Photos: Mark Sangerman)

- MACHINE SEX (Sunday Feb 25, 1979

2 pm, Chevron Station, Columbus/Green.
Pigeons play the part of martyrs in a
gas station to a musical accompaniment
based on Camus' The Stranger.
- FOOD FOR MACHINES (Sunday, May 20
1979/2pm, United Nations Plaza). Food is
consumed in all the wrong ways for all the
wrong reasons.

- NOISE (Sunday, Sept 21, 1979/3pm,

Golden Gate Park Bandshell). An assault on
leisure promenades complete with exploding
glass. Videotape available from S.R.lo
- UNTiTlED (Friday, Oct 20, 1979/11 :30pm,
Mabuhay Gardens). A mechanical ritual of violent abuse for certain rival candidates in 1979's
local elections.
(Saturday, March 11, 1979/12:30pm, Union
Square). An omni-directional slap in the face at
Soviet Premier leonid Brezhnev, to which the
Consulate General of Red China was invited.
Videotape (banned by govts of East Germany &
Czechoslovakia) available.
- USElESS MECHANICAL ACTIVITY (Saturday, Feb 9, 1980/2pm, Palace of Fine Arts
rotunda). A running commentary on the psychology of acts of military aggression and their
consequences. Color video available.
(Sunday, April 30, 1980/9pm, Studio Erasmus at Project Artaud). A mechanical cabaret
filled with detonations and shock waves. Also
featured were Non, Factrix, and Z'ev.
- ElEMENTARY SCHOOL NIGHTMARE (Saturday, June 7, 1980/8pm, Cabrillo Elementary School amphitheatre). Show included
premiere of SXXX-BO, a sex education/alienation film by Monte Cazazza and Tana Emmolo.
"Raised serious questions about the school districts monitoring of private organizations renting public school property." Filmed by KQED
Ch 9, aired on John Rozak's Art Notes program. Videotape available.
28, 1980/9pm, Eureka Theatre). Sentimental
rhapsodies of the state of male-female relations, with unexplained overtones of violence.
Also on bill were DNA and Minimal Man.
- PEARL HARBOR DAY (Saturday, Dec 3,
1980/8pm, Kezar Pavilion). Terrifying scenes
from the battlefields oftomorrow, enacted live.
Unique in its extensive use of rockets. Also performances by Monte Cazazza, Tana Emmolo,
and Factrix. Color videotape available.
(Sunday, April 5, 1981/3:30pm, Fort Mason
Center). An examination of the underlying
mechanisms that characterize reactionary
thought. Nervewracking special effects led to
some uncomfortably close calls for the
audience. Color videotape available; also a
Super-8 film by Andrea Juno from Re/Search,
20 Romolo #B, SF CA 94133.
- LIVE ON 4 (Friday, May 5, 1981/4:40pm,
Myrtle Street). A wild 1 20-second robot drama
of predator and helpless prey. Aired live on Ch 4
with narration by anchorman Evan White.
Videotape available.
June 26, 1981/7:40pm, Cadillac lot, 1000
Van Ness Av). Eleven minutes of hellish fury are
unleashed on Ch 4's SFO with Steve Jamison.
Estimated viewers 500,000. With special guest
Monte Cazazza on exploding dart machine,
soundtrack by Factrix. Videotape available.

1981/8:30pm. Parking lot at Folsom/2nd
Sts). Most complex and dangerous show
staged to date. in which a wide variety of equipment (organic robots, dart guns. laser-aimed
explosive rockets. land mines. and a catapault)
interacted to effect a frightening illusion of ultimate misfortune. SRL's first audience injury.
Videotaped by Ned Judge. Ch 4 News (6 minute condensed version aired Sept 16 on Ch 4
live On 4).
(Friday. Oct 30. 1981/11 :30pm. parking lot at
950 Columbus). SRL machine operators ride
through flaming tubs of gasoline. detonate
bombs attached to their bodies. fire handheld
flamethrowers. as a robotfuck machine with an
expanding and deflating rubber head mates
with a huge black bag in its flaming pen and a
radio-controlled buzz saw-equipped tank
careens out of control. threatening and finally
assaulting the audience and Target Video crew.
Sound by Bond Bergland of Factrix and Matthew Heckert (also main stunt driver). Videotape available. Staged in connection with SF
International Video Festival; aired on KQED Ch
9 Videowest.
USES (Saturday, Nov 13, 1982/9pm. outdoor
lot at 934 Brannan St). A parable of reanimated flesh. highlighted with fires of varying origin. The most technically advanced show
yet. featuring the huge Billy Graham robot
(with Billy Graham sounds), real robotized
mummies. a military type CO' laser. a mobile
Mr Satan, the rabbit Kow-Tow. a fully automated mechanical arm. stink dogs. a squirming
rocket target. a 400-lb mechanized tick, and
the Mummy-Go-Round. Major destruction of
show equipment at the end of event by the
Integrator. Mechanical hand built by Eric
Werner; Soundtrack and Mummy-Go-Round
by Matthew Heckert. High (broadcast) quality
videotape available. Staged as part of the
National Offense Show.

Here are a few classic records that should
never be forgotten but already have been. They
can be found at thrift stores or garage sales for
10C-75C. Certainly there's another 1000 that
should be on this list. Don't get discouraged
when you snag a whole batch thatturn out to be
all dogs-in time you'll learn to like them, too.
-Matthew Heckert
The Three Suns
Warm & Tender
Twilight Me-nories
Alfred Hause & His Tango Orchestra
TIme To Tango
Steve Allen
Bossa Nova Jazz

Joe Vento
Golden Hits vol. 1 & 2
The Many Moods of JV
Ferrante & Teicher
Perez Prado
Havana 3 AM
Mucho Mambo (rare EP)
Exotic Suite of the Americas
Latin Dance Rhythms
Barry White
Greatest Hits
Edmundo Ros
Latin Carnival
Astrud Gilberto
The Astrud Gilberto Album
A Certain Smile A Certain Sadness
Les Baxter
Ritual of the Savage
Jungle Jazz


Primary Sources (UK. v 1)
Damage magazine (#1)
Vacation magazine (#1.3,4)
Slash magazine (vol 3 #5)
Fetish Times (#66,67)
Another Room magazine (vol 2 #4)
Re/Search (#2, still available)
Artbeat (May-June 81. Spring 82)
City Arts (vol 3 #6, vol 4 #5)
High Performance (Summer 81)
Artweek (Nov 15, 81)
Trashola (Vol 1 #7)
Art Com (Fall 81)
Storms of Youth/High Performance
(#3, Fall 82)
NO magazine (Winter 82)
HIP magazine (Japan, May 82)
SF Chronicle (Jan 25, 79/Nov 25, 82)
SF Examiner (June 10, 80/July 25. 82)
Ego #5. #6 (Dec-Jan, Feb-Mar, 83)
Brutus (Japan, March 83)
Bomb (NYC, March 83)
High Times (March 83)
- Video '83 (March 83)

"_1 -

All Books by JG Ballard

Prefer Cut-up Novels by WS Burroughs
Locus Sol us/Raymond Roussel
Impressions of Africa/R Roussel
A Canticle For Leibowitz/Walter Miller Jr
Hunger/Knut Hamsun
Extraordinary Popular Delusions
& The Madness of Crowds
Ice Pick Slim
Ice/ Anna Kavan
Mutant 59: The Plastic Eaters/
Kit Pedler & Jerry Davis
No Brother. No Friend/R Meredith
Vestiges of TIme/R Meredith
The Iron Dream/Norman Spinrad
The Dead Father/Donald Barthelme
All Books by Marguerite Duras
All Books by Walter Abish
All Books by Thomas Pynchon
Armada magazine (Zurich)
Armed Forces Journal
Aviation Week & Space Technology

All Films/Herschell Gordon Lewis
Most Films/David Cronenberg
Most Films/George Romero
(except Creepshow)
Doctor Butcher/Frank Martin
Blood Red/Dario Argento
Twins of Evil/John Hough
Asylum/Roy Ward Baker
The Hills Have Eyes/West Craven
Last House on the left/ ..
Don't Look in the Basement/Brownrigg
Witchcraft Through The Ages/Christensen
Mark of the Devil/Michael Armstrong


;~:<~ . '~.';-:': ~_:.;:'

Previous pages: performance photos by Erich Mueller; Sheffield portraits by Vale. Above photo of Mal and Richard by Pete Care.

Cabaret Voltaire are a band of genuine outsiders, by choice isolated from London. In Sheffield
over 10 years ago, Richard Kirk, Stephen "Mal" Mallinder and Chris Watson began exploring electronic
sound territory with ideas and attitudes inspired by the
Dadaists and William Burroughs. In their first gig they
were attacked and physically forced to stop (Mal had a
bone in his back broken)-the audience wanted
"rock'n'roll." They continued to experiment with Cutups, subliminals, noise, non-instrumental sound sources, chance, acddent, news recordings-gigs were
scarce and they had plenty of time to work out ideas on
tapes as well as paper (they've done numerous collages
and writings).
A turning point came in 1977 when Rough Trade
put out their first single, Extended Play, including the
first song to immortalize the desecration of the bodies
of Mussolini and his mistress by former avid supporters. They also released the first song alluding to the

faked suicides of the Baader-Meinhof. Subsequent

record titles have included "The Set-Up," "Control
Addict," "Silent Command," "Split-Second Feeling,"
"War of Nerves," "Spread The Virus" -obviously indicating their interests. Right from the start their records
sold well around the world, enabling them to quit their
day jobs and experiment full time in their Western
Works studio.
Since the Fall 1981 departure of Chris Watson (for a
position with Tyne-Tees Television), Richard Kirk and
Stephen Mallinder have continued to develop their
propaganda war against the propaganda war. Their
newest tool is video, their newest venture a video
company, Double Vision (thanks to a high-speed
duplicator). Their first videocassette release directly
turns images of oppression against their originators,
utilizing music to give impact while avoiding the
Number One political pitfalls-the facile slogan and
the pat statement ....
In this interview Richard, his girlfriend Lynn, and
Mal converse about motivations and meanings. Questions by Andrea Juno and Vale ....

R/S: Do you think your message has changed since you

MAL: I think the methods have changed-the instrumentation, the way we use the tools, the channels
available to us and our approach, but those are
superficial-I don't think the basics have changed
R/S: Long ago you stated that you were journalists reporting
on issues of importance rather than musiciansMAL: I think that's still the case. We still don't see
ourselves as being technicians-that's secondary. But
we are becoming more aware of discipline-of the
need to articulate more precisely.
R/S: The visual information level has been expandedMAL: Now our visuals have video as an outlet. And
the use of video means that we can document a lot
easier. I don't think we're neglecting the music side,
but you've got to be aware of the age that we're in. The
visual side is a much more potent form of feedback
that's becoming more and more obvious in people's
daily lives.
R/S: With video you can present more ofyour total visionRICHARD: I think the advent of video in our price
range has brought the 2 sides ofwhat we do together.
R/S: Before, you had to do collages on paper, but now you
present them in rhythm-living time-in video.
MAL: I think in people's senses there is a hierarchy,
and the visual side is a lot more spontaneous-people
react a lot more immediately to a visual image than to
an audio image. Visuals tend to have a greater immediate impact-I'm not saying it's longer lasting. Audio
can be a lot more subconscious, more subliminal, but
audio doesn't have the immediacy of the sense of
RICHARD: People have said that after seeing the
video, our music makes a lot more sense! Maybe that's
because of a lack of imagination on their part ....
MAL: There's a lot more crossover ifyou see and hear
something together-it seems to be a more complete
experience. We should do a smellorama video-thank
god we can't!
R!S: Video can leap more language barriers than just
audioMAL: We found that particularly inJapan, our success
was more international than a lot of other music
groups who were more colloquial Because it's not so
specific and its limits not so defined, our music is a lot
more of an international language. I'm not saying
we're the only ones, butRICHARD: We've always taken our source material
from all over the world, not just Britain.
R/S: Have you consciously tried to evolve a philosophy of
color in video?
MAL: Not really. We've used the notion of equating
black and white with certain moods in music, as
opposed to color, but not in terms of evoMng a color
philosophy. I know about people like Whitney who've
worked on that. But we've never wanted to get bogged
down in rigid sort of structures like that and lose a lot
of the chance element we work with. It's intriguing to
do, but not in terms of an overall approach.
R/S: Do video in all army colorsMAL: It'd be interesting-I'd love to know more
about the whole range of the color spectrum, the
sound spectrum. I do know a bit from video mixing

It's funny, you don't realize how

quickly the media pushes things
out of your mind. We've got
videos of Afghanistan and Iranunless you actually record it, the
media immediately sweep it under
the carpet next week!
and editingR/S: What kind of video editing set-up do you have? Isn't
video editing really expensive?
MAL: We have a rough editing facility-3 decks for
mixing down from video to video. It's not unsuccessful
but it is crude to an extent. Synchronization of soundtracks is pretty impossible; just working on image editing is easy enough to do. The master editing for our
video was done in Manchester at Factory's editing
R/S: These days, I think a lot of people are imitating form
without supplying content. We've met people who think innovation means adding a linle noise when they play their rock
songs, or who think they're making an "industrial" film by just
filming sewer pipes or factories. They don't realize the deeper
sense of rebellion-they've never felt what it's like to do
something original in spite of great social rejection.
MAL: It's strange, because it's somewhat flattering to
have people copying us and TG and other groups, but
the whole point was you didn't want people to copy
you. The reason you were doing it that way was
because it was individual, because you had something
basic you were working on which was your ownwhich you'd come to terms with.
R/S: Now that you've moved over into video, it seems you're
in a territory you can explOit until you're at least 80 years old.
The youth culture/pop music province seems to have built-in
limitations to artistic development. At the same time, people
like to feel rhythmic power and drive. But in this culture
rhythmic power seems exclusively confmed to young people's pop music, whereas in a culture like jajouka, you can
have 60-year-old men drumming like demons ....
RICHARD: Well, we don't intend to do this foreverwe don't want to be the old men of industrial or electronic music! I think we see ourselves moving more
and more into visual productions, or soundtrack
music. That's where we come into our own, ifyou like:
working with film, and providing soundtrack music
for other people's films. If someone would give us the
opportunity to do a soundtrack for a fairly high-budget
film, we'd be quite pleased! I think we could do a good
R/S: You could have done a good job on The Blade Runner.... For some time we've been interested primarily in soundtrack music, rather than the "latest" by any of these fucking
new wave groupsMAL: I know what you mean. You have to now search
outside those areas (which were once a showground
for creativity) to f"md something interesting, because
the whole thing's become so predictable.
RICHARD: There's so many groups in England at the
moment with the scratchy nIms and the slides- it


automatically goes that if you do anything that's

vaguely "experimental" - well that's what we're trying
to move away from! We're bringing in the use ofvideo
as an alternative to what's going on, not just for the
sake of it, but because it's new to explore and experiment with ....
R/S: I must say I like the New Guinea images that you
modified in your video. You were always using music as
propaganda anyway, to try and provoke people's minds-and
bodiesRICHARD: - At the moment we're trying to do it
through the body as a sidestep to the mind-that's the
new tactic.
MAL: We're very interested in rhythms now. The
basic inspiration or philosophy is that we're primitive,
but primitive in an urban way-also primitive in our
fascination with the ethnic primitive as well. I'm not
saying we're an ethnic group, but we're aware (like in
the Jajouka musicians) of that primitive force that
goes through all of us. Instead of emulating ethnic
primitivism we're modern primitives. I don't think we
contrive ourselves to be that way, I think that's basically what we are-I think that's in us. We don't have a
propaganda, we don't say this is what we're trying to
interpret, this is what we are. To us, the way we work is
very natural and the way we feel music is instinctive.
Whether we try and make it commercial or whether
we try and make it weird, the whole point is that it's
instinctive, and in that sense I think we're primitive.
R/S: Trust yourselft I think it's admirable to remain in Sheffield, away from the supposedly advantageous distractions
that London offers.
MAL: It's still close, but people aren't going to be
dropping in on us. It allows us our identity. One disadvantage of London is that it can get very incestuous,

full of wheelings and dealings, and that's what we

don't want. Much as we feel a greataftlnitywith a lot of
people in London, our greatest affinity is with ourselves! For a group in our position it would be slightly
easy to get engrossed in the superficial sideRICHARD: We're bullshit fighters!
R/S: -and the fashion sideMAL: I think we're getting a bit too old to be fashionable now!
R/S: How do you think the videotapes you've collected
reflect you? What are some of the titles?
RICHARD: We don't want to get prosecuted for having too many bootlegs! Everything from Clockwork
Orange to Taxi Driver to Midnight Express. Also real
trash sci-fi and trash horror.
MAL: And European mms like Aguirre and Fit:z:carraldo which are still fascinating. You've got your
kitsch American mms for the trash element, and European ones for the subtlety. I mean, you need a bit of
People's approach to video is so hampered in a lot of
ways-the whole idea of the music business promo
video we find annoying. We haven't produced a perfect video, but we've given some idea (just a sketch) of
an alternative. And now we've started Double Vision
which is not just an outlet for Cabaret Voltaire videos;
we want it to be a total alternative video label which
will bring out mms and performances which might
not be mass-marketable (but that doesn't mean they
shouldn't be available). Where if we don't do it, there's
a fair chance no one will. But the label has to be
self-supporting. We want to make sure it's quite
flexible-some videos we might get an order for 100
straight off, and other videos might only sell a total of

Mal. Richard and Chris in front of Rough Trade. San Francisco 1980. (Photo: Clay Holden)

RIS: What have you read lately? Besides the new William
Burroughs Reader?

RICHARD: I just read AndyWarhol's From A toBand

Back Again. Before then I was reading Philip K. Dick's
A Scanner Darkly. Before that I read Cities of the Red
Night when I was in the hospital. I had my appendix
taken out 2 weeks after I came back from Japan.
MAL: I just read a really good book, Through a Black
Sun, by aJapanese journalistwho was inVietnam from
'64-65. Before that I read Auto-da-Fe by Canetti.
RICHARD: I have a lot of books on military psychology which I pick up from time to time and read. I go
through phases where I don't read anything at an. and
then I'll have a total fit of reading for a few weeks.
MAL: I think reading should be a natural process. I
think there's a certain elitist attitude where you feel
obliged to have a certain amount ofintellectual intake,
which is very bourgeois. But reading should be something you do which you eJ9~-You shouldn't feel
obliged to take in this written data just for the sake ofit,
just to store up the knowledge. It takes me 2 weeks to
read a book-I'm permanently reading, but I don't
read 4 books a week and constantly feel, "Oh, I must
get that," because then you become just like a record
coUector. I think reading should be enjoyable and
natural and something that you use-if you read 1
book and you use it for the rest of your life, that's
greater than reading a book a week that's just there, of
no use whatsoever to you.
RICHARD: I keep loads of books around for reference, so I can pick up a book and read maybe 2 chapters out of it... and go back to certain books every now
and then and pick out certain things that crop up in a
conversation or f11m or anything. I prefer to do it on
that basis a lot of the time.
R/S; It makes sense to have information potentially accessible, so that ifyou do get curious about a topic, you can quickly
look it up. Most people who don't read are forced to readadverrisements! And people who do read usually read what the
reviewers select for them-they never bother to search out
what might truly appeal to their own desires. If you're rebellious enough, you usually do find those weird books that do
change your life and are offthe beaten path; that really become

Paranoia ... the only healthy

state in which .to exist. There is a
huge plot, but what is it?
Anyway, you don't follow or focus on the philosophy ofany
panicular personRICHARD: I prefer to take a little from everyone, to
take the best bits out ofwhat's available, mixed in with
a lot of my own personal observations.
R/S; Reading philosophy involves a recognition processit's not that you're learning something brand-new so much as
you're recognizing something you already knew but hadn't
formulated or verbalized
RICHARD: Someone told us afterwatching us work in
the studio that it was like the "street" amplified
through some strange tribal processMAL: He said the studio was like all of the outside

microscoped into one room, because we're working, we've got the TV on, the sounds are there-he
thought it was just extremely tribal.
R!S: What do you think you've gained from traveling to other
RICHARD: The thing that affected me like nothing
else was the nrst time we went to America. And maybe
going to Japan was next. Europe's not so far removed
from Britain, really.
MAL: Whatever country you're in, everybody's sort of
stifled by the jingoism of the country they're in-sort
of an out-and-out imperialism that is totally subconscious in people (with us even, it's still there). It's only
when you go outside your own environment that you
can get rid ofit, a little bit at least. It's good to travel and
exorcise those things that are inside you, because you
get too embroiled in your surroundings and your "way
of life." It's nice to be jarred!
R/S; How did America "jar" you?
MAL: It's strange seeing America, because it's the way
England is going but an extra step further-like walking 10 years into the future in England. I mean Britain's a consumer country, but not to the extent as )
America. You become aware of the way the society's
geared-to thewaste-and-design product theme, to the
consumer. I don't mean just the products that are available, more the general attitude.
RICHARD: Just the spatial thing was pretty much of a
shock- England's so small and a lot of it is built-up
areas. But in America there's so much more room for
everything and the roads are so much bigger. And the
fact that (I don't know about all of the US, but) New
York is a 24-hour place, whereas in England everything, during the week at least, f'mishes at 10:30. Maybe
in London a few places will stay open later, but that's
only fairly recently. A lot ofplaces in Europe are more
24-hour, where you can exist at times that you choose,
at times that suit you.
MAL: England is still geared to the 1870s, the Industrial Revolution, which is completely based on the
work ethic. For over 100 years they've socialized and
educated people to the notion that their moral right is
to work. All the licensing laws are geared toward people working from morning 'til night, and to make sure
they get up on time there's less distraction. They still
live in that 19th-century dream; they've built into people's heads the ideology that if you're not working,
then morally you are of no use to yourself or the
community. Now they've got an entire generation of
people who don't work, who've been taught that ifthey
don't work they're lepers. And that's why this country's
totally screwed up.
RICHARD: They're going to have to go through a process of de-control!
MAL: They've got this whole screwed-up generation
of kids who've been taught at school that their only
role in life is to work, and therefore justify themselves
through work. Then when they f'lOish school, they
realize they're never going to work for the rest oftheir
lives. A totally psychotic generation-which oddly
enough we're detached from, yet because we've grown
up through the same processes, we're aware of.
I suppose they'll bring back the poorhouses, and it'll
be really Dickensian again ....




R/S: ... Have any movies been shot near Sheffield?

RICHARD: They made one about the BlackPanther, a
guy who was a bit crazy-always used to wear a black
hood. He'd got all the military gear and was obsessed
with that- he'd been in the army. He robbed a few post
offices and blew a few people away. And kidnapped
this heiress and hid her in a drainage shed. The SAS got
R/S; How would you describe the SAS?
MAL: Seventy percent of them are volunteers from
the armyRICHARD: They're really well trainedMAL: Almost like the SS. They're also very narcissist
as well-they wear black silk flying suits which they
ceremonially destroy after each mission.
RICHARD: They've got laser-sighted guns so they
shoot along a beam of light, things like thatMAL: During the Iranian embassy siege, all the 1V
channels stopped and showed the siege going ahead
like it was a film -the end of the siege, the raid on the
embassy, in real time.
RICHARD: And that's been made into a film now,
Who Dares Wins. And real footage of the Falklands is
going to be available on a 2-hour videocassette. I ~up
pose the money's going to go to benefit families of
men that were killed.
R/S: How many people were killed?
RICHARD: I think the final score was Argentinians
about 1,000 dead, Britain 200 or 300. They used to
show it regularly like football scores on the 1V!
R/S: The news proves you don't have to develop virtuosity
for years and years to produce interesting videoMAL: Yes. But we don't like the attitude of nonprofessional chic. It was goodwhen we first started- it
was the anti- man stance-but that in itselfhas become
a fashion, it's the unfashionable fashion. And we find
that as people have caught up with us on that level, it's
time for us to (instead ofgoing against the techniques)
use the techniques to our advantageRICHARD: Sort of tidy up the loose edges in what we
do to make it more acceptable to more people, yet not
really selling anything out. Opening a few more doors.
Making a few tiny compromises so we don't have to
make the big compromise in anything.
R/S: At this time it seems that formlessness and anti form
have been explored almost enough. You and a few others
were in revolt against all the established forms at a time when
no one else was; now you do the opposite-take the forms
themselves and subvert them. Lyric content hasn't been
compromised-you've used moral majority tapes, brain oper
ation narratives-"this woman's brain has been split in two."
What happened there?
MAL: The original tape said that, but on the tape we
played back to you, a voice in the background was
whispering "I know.... "
RICHARD: The woman's right hand and left hand
were not coordinated in any way. It was like having
your body cut in twoLYNN: Her brain was saying I want to wear the green
dress but her hand went for the pink dress. So, she
might have wanted to eat the cheese in the fridge but
her hand went for the ham ....
RICHARD: One side ofyour brain is "artistic," and the
other side is more technical.

Richard in a sporting mood. (Photo: Vale)

R/S: Personal obsessions and interests?

RICHARD: Pornography, kitsch and firearms. We
have to f"md some new ones!
MAL: I think there's a danger that if you're aware of
them becoming obsessions, it can get very contrived. ./
There's a certain amount of chic in getting an obses- ........
sion with things that other people find repulsive. It's
one thing to ignore bourgeois morality in being fascinated with something, but to go to the other extremethen your attitude becomes just as bourgeois, but in a
different area. Inquisitivefascination is about as far as
I would call my obsessions-I wouldn't call them)
obsessive as such.
R/S: When you visit other countries, don't you look for
specific things that appeal to you? For example, didn't you get
some switchblades in Italy?
RICHARD: Yeah! I brought back a really big one ....
R/S: Also, didn't you buy some military clothing?
RICHARD: Yes, it's very functional. Good for traveling around in. The pockets are really useful.
MAL: Functional is one of the main things about
RICHARD: I used to wear military gear since I was
about 14-itwas part ofthe skinhead thing: army dungarees and military-type boots.
MAL: We were skinheads at a time when it didn't have
the overt violence, the right-wing association. It was
just a working-class youth culture, more fashionoriented. The point is, they've just been used They
didn't set out to be a political movement, a right-wing
spearhead-they were manipulated either through
their own stupidity, or they were misinformed.
They're very pliable as a mass. A lot of them are young
and slightly gullible. The way people picture skinheads as a youth culture now is totally different from
when we were skinheads.
R/S; Do you buy many records?
RICHARD: There's so many wankers. I don't go and
see many groups and I don't buy many records by
contemporary bands. There's nothing ....


.,l.- .. ~~

,. ~

f::.'~ .:.:_.::'"~

EXTENDED PLAY (4-song EP): Talkover-Here
She Comes Now-Do The Mussolini (Headkick!)The Set Up. Rough Trade RT 003.
NAG NAG NAG/Is That Me (Finding Someone
At The Door Again). RT 018.
SILENT COMMAND/Extract from soundtrack
for 'Chance versus Causality.' RT 035.
JAZZ THE GLASS/8urnt To The Ground. RT
SLUGGIN' FER JESUS/Your Agent Man. Crepescule TW1 081.
19 Jan 1982. Solid No.1. (Cabaret Voltaire
performed under pseudonym The Pressure
Company to benefit Solidarity in Poland.)
MIX-UP. Rough 4.
YMCA LIVE. Rough 7.
RED MECCA. Rough 27.
2x45. Rough 42.
HAl! Rough Trade RTL 23.
CABARET VOLTAIRE 1974-76. IndustriallRC
RICHARD H. KIRK: Disposable Half Truths.
Industrial IRC 34.
C81 Cassette.
Sampler EP, Fac 4.
INVOCATION. Ghosts of Christmas Past LP,
Crepuscule TW1 058.
OVER AND OVER. Flexi-disc for Vinyl magazine #13.
JOHNNY YES NO. Soundtrack forfilm by Peter
Kerr, unreleased.
Send 20 for SO-minute videocassette to Double Vision c/o 267 Ellesmere Rd, Sheffield 54
70 P, Yorkshire England or write Michael Shamberg, 1050 6th Av, NYC NY 10018 (212) 8400659. Or contact Rough Trade.

Unlimited Dream Company/J.G. Ballard
From A to B & Back Again/Warhol ..--Stargazer (about Warhol's Films)
Hospital Ship/Martin Bax
Diary of a Nazi lady/Gillian Freeman
The Necronomicon/ed. Hay
A Scanner Darkly/Philip K Dick
The Big Beat Scene

55 Regalia
Beautiful Losers/Leonard Cohen
Last Exit to Brooklyn/Hubert Selby
Capone/John Kobler
Carlos: Terror International
George Jackson: Soledad Brother
CIA & the Cult of Intelligence/Marchetti
Confessions of Aleister Crowley
(& other selected Crowley writings)
The Dark Side of History/Michael Edwardes
(occult; "this ties up a few loose ends")
Mysteries of Life & Death/Prof Keith Simpson
Marquis de Sade/lwan Bloch
The Voodoo Gods/Maya Deren
Prehistoric Germ Warfare/Robin Collyns
New Soviet Psychic Discoveries/Gris & Dick
The Living & The Dead/Patrick White
The Real Howard Hughes Story/Madden
Justine/Marquis de Sade
It's Smart to Use a Dummy/Hilton
Selling the War/Jacques Sternberg
Vietnam Inc.lGriffiths
Crimes & Punishment/vol. III
The Third Mind/Burroughs & Gysin
("a good reference book")
OMNI Magazine

Anything by Luis Bunuel
Anything by Warhol/Morrisey
Performance/Nicholas Roeg
The War Game/Peter Watkins
Dreams That Money Can Buy/Richter
The Rebel/Tony HanCOCK
The Criminal
The Man With The Golden Arm
Years of Lightning 1963/1967
(British TV Cut-up Style Program)
I Spit On Your Grave/Meir Zarchi
Plan 9 From Outer Space/Edw 0 Wood Jr
The Exorcist/William Friedkin
Shivers/David Cronenberg
Scum/ Alan Clarke
Taxi Driver/Martin Scorcese
A Touch of Evil/Orson Welles
The Crazies/George Romero
Death Wish/Michael Winner
Empire of the Senses/Oshima
Blade Runner/Ridley Scott
Outer Limits (TV)/Joseph Stefano
Texas Chainsaw Massacre/Tobe Hooper
Enter The Dragon/Robert Clouse
Living Dead at the Manchester Morgue
Island of Mutations/Sergio Martino
The Third Mind
Psycho/Alfred Hitchcock
Clockwork Orange/Stanley Kubrick
Phantasm/Don Coscarelli
Fistful of Dollars/Sergio Leone
Apocalypse Now/F F Coppola
55 Program

Vanishing Point/Richard Sarafian

55 Experiment Camp
East 1 03rd Street
King Creole (best Elvis movie)
Headhunters (early 20's footage)
Brain (brain surgery series)
A Limited Nuclear War
Swedish Erotica
Seven Samurai/ Akira Kurosawa
The Long Knives (S.A.)
Hells Angels on Wheels/Rich Rush
History of Riots
Rise & Fall of Idi Amin
King Kong
Johnny Yes No (CV did soundtrack)
Fists of Fury/Lo Wei
Shogun Assassin/Kenji Misumi
Doctor Who
The Hills Have Eyes/Wes Craven
Repulsion/Roman Polanski
Venus Flytrap (documentary)
War Footage
Auschwitz & the Allies
News From 1981
World's Most Dangerous Man
(about Frank Terpel)
Beast from 20,000 Fathoms
Iran Torture Footage
Images of War
Papua, New Guinea
Panic in Needle Park/J SchatZberg
Will Hays, Convict
Kagemusha/ Akira Kurosawa
Kenneth Anger Films
Nightmares in a Damaged Brain
The Mad Foxes
Escape From New York/J Carpenter
Namid Desert Creatures
Zombie/Lucio Fulci
Don't Look Now/Nicholas Roeg
James Brown Story
The Frightened City
Leiber & Stoller
Mad Max 1 & 2/George Miller

- 49

.. " ... ~.,.

Above photo: Ed Colver. Previous pages: Boyd as boy; Boyd in shooting gallery and next to 50's porno booth by Steve Hitchcock;
Boyd with Laurie O'Connell at Peoples Temple; large portrait by Ed Colver.

. '.' . . .

....-, ." .

';;", _.W. '.

. . ~ ... " - .,: -


7.:~:~r};}:;; -

Since 1977 Non (Boyd Rice) has systematiCJlly
. h Id
d' h

~~:~h~~.::="?;al=f f;!3~i=

floor, was more than a critique -

the recording

shaking their fists at me, and I thought that at any

"cry,") The next 45 was the first to offer extended

possibilities for listener-modified playback, with 2-4
(he would have liked more) holes in the center for
multi-axial rotation. The history of Non-musical innovation is documented and still available on Mute
Records. Two new albums will soon be released,
Non's live performances offer sheer (but varied)
noise at the pain threshold - the objective being to
offer the listener personalfreedom to impose shape,
rhythms and organization on the offered input. He's
used a shoe polisher, a guitar with a fan on it, as well as
processed tapes of sounds generated by his own inventions. Cut in are various subliminals taken from sources
like the last 45 minutes at Jonestown, quotations from
newspaper headlines ("Water Balloon Prank Fatal To
Pedestrian"), and excerpts from tapes made at Disneyland, Playland, Winchell's Donuts, and other fun spots.
Non considers his performances "de-indoctrination
rites"-as he once said, "I think that most music is
dangerous because it tends to systematize thoughtyou think in patterns-you know what's coming
before you even hear it." After two European tours and
numerous American dates, Non still succeeds in outraging audiences anywhere, especially music lovers ....
Currently Boyd Rice is writing a guide to Incredibly
Strange Films, co-written with Jim Morton of Trashola,
to be published by Re/Search ....

volume, but they're afraid. You need to have somebody right there to push it up a little louderwhen they
turn it down. Like when Daniel Miller (head of Mute
Records) does the sound, he does it real loud. One
time I got the best vocal effect ever-my voice was
completely Arrrh-aggrrh-arrh. And at the time I
thought, God what's he doing to those vocals? I
thought that because I was mad about something, he
had turned it up extra loud that night justto be nice. A
couple days later I asked hi.m. "Hey Daniel, what'dyou
do to those vocals a couple nights ago?" And he said,
"Oh, that must have been the night you blew the
R/S: Do you know of any actual physical reactions to your
NON: One girl told me it had induced an acid flashback in her-she'd never had one before, and didn't

of beer in it, and the beer ran down my face and I

Si~i~~:E~~?~;:~;=~s~~r:~:~~::: :~:?~F;;::;:~n:~


~c;:.~.'~N.:.;..;,~.: ~:. ;

::;:~L~;~~~f::;~~E~r~~~f~~r~ pZ~~~~f~~~~;'r:::~ ;~?~1t,f;j;;~

Boyd with broken records; photo taken for NON Black Album label.

R/S: Which performances have made people the angriest?

NON: In New York I was one of the first people in
years to actually get catcallsl People were screaming, I
want my $7.50 back! And in Den Haag, Holland, they
were real angry. Because in Den Haag everybody who
likes music goes to every concert, especially if it's by
someone from America or England. I guess they go to
everything because there's nothing to do there.
They reaDy disliked me. At the show I had these
bright lights shining in their eyes so they could barely
see me-they were trying to reach up and smash the
lights, but the lights were just out of their reach. One


believe they existed. Another girl reported it jarred

one of her fillings loose, giving her a toothache. Some
people find it torturous ... some people find it
extremely soothing and relaxing. Some people find it
painful but like it anyway-at the end ofone DeafClub
show some girls spontaneously started yelling in unison, "More pain! More pain!" I've always liked the idea
of one stimulus being able to cause completely different reactions in people.
R!5: When did Non begin performances?
NON: Well, I did performances before I did Nonalthough they weren't really performances. Z'ev did
them too- me and him did them at La Mamelle long
ago when there really wasn't any other place. I just
happened to be in San Francisco, and a guy called me
up and said, "Hey Boyd, there's going to be a sound

poetry event at La Mamelle- you can do sound poetry,

can't you?"
I'd always known that words structured thought, and
thought structured reality, so I was already interested
in that area although I wasn't the least bit interested in
"sound poetry." So, I did these things where I'd have
about 8 people, and I'd give them a word and tell them
to repeat the word until it became completely incomprehensible, until it was just syllables repeated .... If
you repeat a word enough it becomes something else,
like a blanket of sound, a big blur of sound. But that
was just something I had an opportunity to do so I did
When I first started doing Non. I'd been making
noise music for myself for a long time.
R!5: How did you get the idea?
I started doing my own music so I could have
something to listen to. I liked music, but there wasn't
any music out there that fulfilled what I thought music
should be. I'd think, Well if I had invented the idea of
music, having never heard music before, what I would
I want it to be for me? What elements would it have?
I thought, Well it should be repetitive, and sort of
catchy, but vague enough so you wouldn't really
remember it or be humming it when you weren't
listening to it. So you'd have to experience it at the
time, and when the record was off- forget it! I started
making musical tapes, and at the same time I started
making a number of noise tapes that I played just for
myself. I made my first record of the more musical
tapes. And then I decided to explore the noise more.
When punk rock first came out, my friend Steve
Hitchcock wanted to form a band, because he liked the
ideas behind punk-he liked anarchy, but he didn't
really like the music-he didn't think the music was
an expression of the ideas. So he wanted to form a
band that would take those ideas and give them form.
Me and him got together with Robert Turman, who
seemed to want to get involved-he had equipment
and amps and we made this band for awhile, but it
didn't work out. It was one of these democratic situations where nobody really got anything expressednobody ever pushed their ideas out there-everybody
sort of just held back. Eventually Steve left, and I just
sort of took over and made Non what it turned out to
While starting Non. I did a performance that was just
a BoydRice performance. It was justa big long screech
of noise with a lot of subtle stuff underneath that you
could just barely hear. It lasted a long time. My idea
was that I'd set it up and everything would just be
going by itself and I'd leave. But every time I left, the
audience would leave too, and when I came back to
make adjustments so it would change and be different
for awhile, everybody would come back in too. They
had to have somebody to look at while they were
listening to that....
Incidentally, Javier of the Zeros was in the Boyd
Rice performance. He and I did some music together.
It was just experimental, but it was interesting how he
could be given this premise and he could just perfectly
do something that was real experimental.
The first actual Non performance was in 1978, even

Non with rota-guitar at the Deaf Club. San Francisco 1979; Laurie
O'Connell from Monitor on background vocals. (Photo: Vale)





.' ~~



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to do, and it's changed here or there, but it's been

simple way. I have other things I've made to play them

',' .


~~g~~~::::::::7: ~~T:.Efi;;;;;;:;;;; ~.;.,;N.~_'~


machine and other devices-


At one performance we used an indoctrination

,- .......

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;~.f~":~a~~E ~~~1~~~~2gE;::E:~ ;j3:;i:~:t.;:

tings, and get amazing frequencies. We had a

roto-guitar too-a guitar with a fan on it.
R/S: Who made that?
NON: I did- it was an obvious idea to produce more
noise with less effort-it sounded like a squadron of
bombers taking off. But eventually it was just too much
always interested in the idea of doing less and getting

Actually when I first thought of the idea of making

music, I thought of a whole orchestra of instruments
that you'd be able to just turn on and they'd be working at the same time, producing repetitive music. But
eventually I figured out a way to do it much easier, so I
thought, Why build this whole orchestra of instruments (and drag them around) when I can do something extremely simple and get the same effects?
R/S: Give me just one example of these instruments.
NON: I thought of inventing an organ made out of
cows' lungs, windpipes and larynxes-8 or 10 sets of
them in a series, hooked up to air compressors.
R/S: That might be a little difficult to haul around. Nowyour
act is extremely portable?
NON: Extremely. I can put all my instruments in a
lunch pail. I use tape recorders as musical instruNon stand-in onstage at the Whisky. los Angeles 1982.
(Photo: Peggy Photo)

are used to, so that by the time we came on maybe

they'd be. , .. It was a hokey thing to do-obviously it
wasn't going to work, but I liked the idea of it.
I also had taped quotes from the Manson girls saying
things like "Rich people better watch outl" that were
funny but would get people in a certain mood
R/S: Your performances are quite shortNON: They started out being 20 minutes or a half
hour but they've gotten shorter-the last one I did at
the Whisky-a-Go-Go I think was 5 minutes long!
R/S: You weren't on stage at all for that one?
NON: No. I was sitting in the dressing room over the
R/S: Well, what happened? What was the performance?
NON: It was a scarecrow. I had everything prearranged so that all I had to do was set it in motion.
And people liked it-they clapped to a scarecrow with
a plaster head
R/S: Your performances are intentionally not very visual?
NON: Sometimes there were lights behind me, and
you couldn't see me, but when I'd move, the lights
would throw offdifferent shadows. One time I had two
two huge horrifying, screaming clown faces behind
me. But I usually make it as visually bland as possible.
However, I don't have any firm commitment to look-

ing bland- I could go exactly the opposite at any time.

R/S: Once at the Deaf Club, you had Laurie from Monitor
behind you. Why?
NON: I had her come on and sing one song. She'd
sing it so you could almost hear it, but not quite; e~r
once in a while you'd hear a couple words and start
listening harder... then the mike would go away from
her mouth. And it would be something innocuous,
like a line from an Annette Funicello song: AU the
chicks are bikini-clad which would then fade back
into noise ...
R/S: What effect would you want, ideally, in an audience?
NON: I don't want specific responses. Like when people react really favorably or don't, I'm not moved by it
one way or the other. If I had the audience in mind
while thinking about what I wanted to do, it wouldn't
be what I wanted to do. I'm trying to do just what I'd
like to hear, with the minimum of intent, almost.
R/S: Well, when I've heard the intense noise you've generated, after a while I start to impose patterns and structures on
what I'm hearing, but at the same time they don't seem to
really be there.
NON: Yes, I think a lot ofthe noise suggests structures


in people's heads that aren't really there. Which is

what I think it should do. I've made a lot of tapes of
pure noise and I know there are no voices on them, yet
you listen back to them and you'd swear there are
voices. And on Pagan Muzak, even though that's just
loops of noise, you can hear definite little melodies
coming out ... the most subtle elements can become
very pronounced.
For a long time I've wanted to get ahold of these
records that are made for mental patients, saying
things like wubnyahuhwhub-sort ofmumbledvoices
that are saying nothing really. And they'll play them
for the patients and ask, "What's this man saying?" And
the patient will say, "He's saying .... "
R/S: Obviously the patient says something relating to his
problems. That sounds good-like a sound Rorschach test.
NON: On the Black Album, there are a lot ofvoices. I
don't know where they came from-they sound like
voices and you can listen to them say certain phrases
over and over again. And then at an abrupt point they'll
start saying something else-you can tell they've
altered the phrase and are saying something different.
And I know all that's not there, but it's there for the
R/S: Describe the Black Album.
NON: Okay. It's my first record and my earliest
recordings, from '75 on. I put it out in 1977, I think. It's
the rust record you can play at any different speed, so
you get 4 times as much for your .... ! I followed that


NON: I did. Some of them have 3 or 4 holes.

R/S: Ah, rare collectors' items. I only have a two-hole one.
NON: Oh, sorry. Ideally I'd leave a big hole in the
middle and people could put it anywhere they wanted
to, but people won't do that. You've got to force them
to-if that extra hole's there and it's real for them,
they'll do it, but if it's not, they'll (pathetic tone of
voice) "Oh, I don't know, I'm not going to play it off
center," But if they see it's in the record, WeU....
In the first record I even wanted loop grooves- I
wanted overlapping loop grooves.
R/S: What are overlapping loop groves?
NON: Theoretically there would be about three of
them, and they'd overlap at certain points, and they
might do random things-the needle might go in a
pattern for awhile, then change. But over the phone,
long distance, I couldn't even get the pressing plant to
do a loop groove. On the second record, I persevered,
and finally got it.
R/S: How many copies were made of the first record?
NON: Eighty-six. I ordered 75 but they accidentally
made 11 extra.
R/S: Was that all you could afford?
NON: Well at the time I thought, How many people in
the world are going to want to listen to this kind of
music? I wasn't aware that there might be a market for
it. You're sitting alone in your room doing this and you
think, Gee .... Like I thought I invented tape loops-I
thought I'd found the perfect way to make repetitive






Peggy March
Male nidll
den Teufel
an die Wand
Of Heidelberg

with the multi-axial single, which can not only be

played at all 4 speeds but off-center too, so you get way
more for your money.
R/S: Didn't you have some difficulty getting the single made
with more than one hole?
NON: The record companywouldn't do that-I had to
drill all the extra holes myself.
R/S: Didn't you want even 3 or 4 holes?

music. I was real-I hate to say bummed out-to find

out there were other people doing this ....
R/S: After the multi-axial single, didn't you do the world's
first 7" album in a J2-inch sleeve?
NON: Pagan Muzak, all loop grooves. Then a 12"
single: one live song, one studio song I did in London,
and another real old thing I did in 1978-more poppy,
repetitive, really dense material. I did the Frank and

Boyd album (don't know when that's coming out; hate

to think it's lost in the vaults. That was done with Frank
of Fad Gadget) Now there's a live album that should
be out any time, a real album, of performances all
over, in different styles.
R/S: Sort of like The Best OJ?
NON: Well, I've tried to present noise as simplistically
as possible, but I've found a whole bunch of different
ways to go about it-different styles, different
approaches. So it's kind of like a spectrum of those
different possibilities.
R/S: You work principally with noise. So why do you like a
lot of blatantly pop music, usually by female vocalists?
NON: I've always liked female vocalists because of
the quality of their voice-it's so high-pitched Those
high frequencies have always really appealed to me!
The music sung by girls seems to be poppier, more
lively. What 1 like about all those different types of
music by Peggy March, Annette, Manuela and the Five
Dops, Lesley Gore (I always liked Johnny Crawford;
even though he's a boy, he has a high voice and sings
kind of the same sort of songs that these girls do),
Abba -all these types of music seemed like they had a
different mentality behind it. 1didn't even look upon it
or consider it as music-I was looking for a certain
underlying feeling, a feeling that's in a lot of things
like certain weird movies. But when that element's
there, that indef"tnable elementR/S: Does that "element" involve a random psychotic

elements blending together to form something that's

much more than just the sum of the parts.
R/S: Can you give me an example of this?
NON: Sandie Shaw did a song about being obsessed
with this guy, following him around everywhere, until
f"tnaIly she caught him. And he was everything she
dreamed of, and this and that. But then, after awhile,
all of a sudden she was with him one day and realized
that she didn't want him anymore. So she tried to leave
him, but he wouldn't go for that, and then he just
followed her everywhere she goes, and says he doesn't
want anyone new!
A lot of the songs deal with paranoia-hers are a lot
more cold and paranoid than some. There's a line in a
Johnny Crawford song which says, "Everyone in
town/wants to put me down/with their rumours." Everyone in town-jeez! There's always this fear of persecution and delusion of grandeur in these songs, all
these overblown fears. He's got another one where he
just sits looking at this chair; his friends tell him it's
empty but he can see her sitting there. He knows he's
crazy, that he's living in the past; but he says, "People
say I'm just playing a game/but to me it's all the same."
And Annette's songs are always about these weird
abnormal characters that are somehow endowed with
real positive connotations. Like Jo-Jo the Dog-jaced
Boy is a guy so ugly that his face is covered with wool
and he looks like a dog; he wears weird clothes and
drives an ugly old car. But everybody likes him

NON: Yeah! (laughs) That, and it seems like a lot of
the music was written by adults for children, so there's
this whole weird, twisted perspective ofwhat an adult
thinks a child will like. Like, they'll make the production overly childish ... or certain things that would
ordinarily be subde they'll make overly obvious, and
so on down the line. And you'll get all these different

because he's such a wild guy. See, the very characteristics that people would ordinarily nnd repulsive are
what make him interesting and exciting. That's great
input for kids, you know!
A record like that more truly communicates; the
structure, her voice, the content, is like wilder than
captain Beefheart could ever hope to be! That's what 1
like about a lot of this music- it forces a certain



~~ .~.


hebephrenic mental state on you. You can be a serious

adult and listen to some of this music and it sort ofcuts
through all the nonsense, all the false barriers you
Bottom to Top: Martin Denny (next to tiki), Harvey Ragsdale, Julius
Wechter, and Augie Colon. (Photo from Exotica III, Uberty Records)

erected as you've "grown up." So-called intelligence

and sophistication which people attach so much
importance to, and think give them clear perceptions,
are the very barriers which keep them from ever having any clear perceptions.
R S: What do you like about Abba?
NON: They're getting a lot more paranoid and
stranger, saying a lot ofvague-I wonder if they know
what they're getting at. There's a certain Abba
mentality-I don't know what it is; a certain lack of
intelligence and sophistication?-that seems to permit
them to come up with songs that are really haywire,
like that heavy-metal women's lib song they wrote.
And I like their music, too- it has that lack of sophistication that's really childish and pure and basic. But at
the same time they're extremely sophisticated in their
whole way of operating-their production qualities,
the way they run their business, etc. They've managed
to be cold and calculating on a lot of levels, while
somehow preserving a naive and childish quality.
I think Americans have really lost that, because even
when I was a kid-I remember being on a bus going to
summer camp in the t.. .f th grade, and "Sugar Sugar"
came on the radio. And all my friends- they were just
little kids, f1fth-graders-they hated it. And "Dizzy"
came on and they hated that too. Because here were
songs that were just direct, catchy, and happy, and
even f'lfth-grade kids were too sophisticated to like
something that was bubble-gum. And I think that gets
in the way of people's experience of life on so many
different levels.
R/S: Didn't you meet Martin Denny?
NON: Yeah, he's still playing at this hotel on Maui.
He's been there the past 4 years, throughout the week.
After he played his set I went over and introduced
myself. We just started talking.
I asked him how he got interested in exotic sounds,
and he said that when he was a lot younger he traveled
in Peru and became interested in ethnic and exotic
sounds there. Later on, in 1956 at The Shell Bar in

Boyd Rice with identical tiki 25 years later, Maui, Hawaii. The tiki
has since been removed.


-. ..
.... ....


Waikiki, he and his band would play outside and these

birds would make bird sounds and more or less interfere. Since it was such a prevalent sound, they decided
to incorporate it into their act. They started having
members of the band do birdcalls.
R 5: Vocally?
NON: Yeah; different members of the band were talented in that direction. And then they made the Quiet
Village album which became a Number One hit. He
said it was in the charts for 13 weeks.
Anyway, I asked him how he got these strange
instruments he uses. He said they knew people who
worked for the airlines who would bring them back
unusual instruments. They'd try them out and build a
number around different odd instruments. He said he
was always interested in sounds and always interested
in experimentation.
R/S: Did he have any theories of sound?
BOYD: He said that when a writer writes a book, he
introduces all these characters and elaborates on
them. And that's what he was trying to do with musicevery theme represented a character. He said aU
sounds represented colors as well. When they played
the Tiki Bar in the International Marketplace, they had
colors rhythmically blinking, and the rhythm of the
percussion interactedwith this big fan that swung back
and forth in front of the stage. Sort of hypnotic.
He said they were always trying something outweird instruments from Bali, anything. Sometimes it
worked and sometimes it didn't, but they always kept
doing it because they never knew what they might
find Back then there was nobody doing anything
similar-nobody was using any primitive or ethnic
instruments except the cultures that created them.
On one song they used brass pans- they'd hit them
and gotten a really good sound, so they got them in 4
or 5 different sizes and used them just as an instrument, basing a whole song around them. You know,
that's like Z'ev....
R/S: Can you describe any other instruments?

white keys on a piano, but they took it apart and put the
black keys in with the white keys so they could be able
to run up and down the notes.

R/S: What do you think makes Martin Denny so noteworthy?

NON: Once in a while somebody does something so
personal, so much them, that it seems just completely
separate from everything else. What Martin Denny did
back then was completely different from anything
people were doing. Later, after he became popular, a
million people put out "exotic" albums, but he was
using all these strange instruments and these
unclicbed sounds and I think it had a more direct
appeal, was more genuine-at least to me.
It was such a strange idea to combine primitive
instrumentation with relaxing, easy-listening
arrangements-can you imagine the mind that would
combine those two?
He was really interested in the idea of things being
incongruent In the old days, when they were playing
the International Marketplace, they'd be playing some
exotic number and then go directly into "Frankie and
Johnnie." He did weird arrangements that only he
would think of, like playing "Tiny Bubbles" in a classical style like Tchaikovsky or Bach. The most normal
songs, in completely improbable arrangements.
R/S: Did he do any film soundtracks?
NON: He did the music for a fUm called Forbidden
Island, by the same guy who made Crab Men From
Outer Space. They did a song based around a drum
made out of a log.
R/S: Does Martin Dennv ever tour?
NON: The band owOed so many different instruments that it was impossible to travel-all these deli-

NON: One was made specifically for the soundtrack

of The King And I. It was made out of cut-off pipes of
different lengths fastened to a huge log, and it
sounded like a gamelan. It was played with mallets or
hammers. It weighed a ton, and was impossible to take
around, unless they were playing one place for long
periods of time. They designed one song around this
instrument, but since itwas only used for the one song,
it was kind of impractical. Then this guy who had the
largest collection of instruments on the East Coast
bought it. It was shipped to him the cheapest way
possible- on a slow boat through the Panama canaland now this guy in New York rents it out, and it's
named after Martin Denny.
R/S: Did he say anything specifically about harmony?
NON: He said that harmony isn't what makes music
interesting, that dissonance is. He said that when
things grate against each other the sound seems to
have a bite that appeals to the ear.
R/S: Did he modify existing instruments?
NON: They took apart a xylophone and reconstructed it so they could do a perfect glissando on it.
Ordinarily all the notes on a xylophone are like all the

cate, weird, primitive instruments. He said they didn't

like to travel anyway, because all the guys were in love
with Hawaii-the beach and everything. You know,
playing in Detroit when it was snowing?!
R/S: What instruments does he use now?
NON: He just does solo piano, but interestingly
enough he uses tapes of bird sounds. Sometimes he
uses a rhythm generator but mostly he does solo
piano. What he does is extremely intricate-it's hard
to believe that there's just one person playing it ....
R/S: Ultely you've been paying a lot more attention to films
that have some inexplicable mentality ... to the extent that
you're writing a book about them: Incredibly Strange MOl'ies
(co-written with]im Morton of Trashola fame). Can you state
what ties them all together?
NON: It's something extremely elusive-that's what
gives them the quality of being exceptional. You can
tell that films which on the surface appear to be complete opposites share a special vitality that transcends
the elements of the film.
When I was young I wanted to like horror roms, and
went to see tons ofthem. But I felt they were always the
same movie- they always had the monster get killed








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in the end, etc. Eventually I got tired of them because

they weren't fulfilling the promise that I thought
they'd made to me!
Then one day I saw Moonlighting Wives-itwasona
triple feature with a couple of horror f'1Ims in a cruddy
theater-an early low-budget sexploitation film. And
right from the start I thought, What's this? This is
different-I haven't seen anything like this before.
How'd this fUm get into this theater? I think it starts out
with a policeman talking about lust circles that were
forming around the country, where bored housewives
would go into prostitution because they were bored
and wanted something to do, and they wanted money
to buy pretty things. So, they were trying to crack down
on these: "This could be any town, this could be the
town you're living in."
It started out with amazing weird sets and weird
actors and everything about it was off, somehow. The
whole f'1Im follows their story: the housewives getting
together and making the arrangements, the police
sending guys out into the field undercover, gathering
information, etc. Then at the end, the police arrive and
arrest everybody just as they'd all converged at this
house and were dressed up only in their underwear
and black halloween masks. (That f'1Im was by Joe
Then a short time later I saw Herschell Gordon
Lewis's The Gruesome Twosome. I saw that with a couple normal horror films in a cruddy theater; I wasn't
expecting anything. It starts off with a couple of wigheads talking to each other-wig-heads with faces
drawn on them like with a ball-point pen, in front of
this backdrop, and holes cut in the backdrop with
people's hands coming through moving these heads
while they were talking to each other, saying these
jokes that weren't really funny.
I couldn't believe what I was seeing; I kept looking
around the theater- I felt like I was in a dream. The

The King of Noise Music meets The King of Surf Music. Dick Dale.

whole f'1Im, one scene after another, was just

This lady runs a combination wig shop and dormitory for girls, young co-eds, and her son lives in the
back room. He's mentally deficient or psychotic, and
he takes the cOoed girls that live there and kills them
and cuts off their scalps, and then their scalps are sold
as wigs in the wig store. And I thought, This is just a
one-in-a-million film; it's just some strange accident
that this happened out into the world..
But right after that I saw The Incredibly Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-up Zombies. And I couldn't believe how great it was. Actually
when I first saw it itwas playing under the title Teenage
Psycho Vs. Bloody Mary, at Halloween. The ad said
something like "See living monsters rip from the
screen and carry off members of the audience." It also
said, "1001 of the weirdest scenes ever." And it showed
a woman and said, "She keeps monsters in cages for
pets." And it showed a man, and said, "He kidnaps wild
go-go girls."
R/S: What are some other films you've selected?
NON: Terrified (with Rod Lauren) is about a young
man obsessed with the idea of fear, who's writing a
term paper on the subject of fear. His friend's been
turned into a "slobbering oyster" by this horrifying
accident that happened to him out in the cemetery at
the old ghost town-somebody poured cement on
him, up to his neck until his mind snapped. This guy
Rod Lauren thinks he'll be able to go out there and
come to terms with terror which has plagued him all
his life. So he goes out there and ... it's an amazing
R/S: What about EqUinox?
NON: Apparently the guy who made this film saw
some special effects footage Jim Danforth did, and
he said, "Hey, this is great footage! We oughta somehow film a whole story around it and work it in." So

Cash Flag AKA Ray Dennis Steckler. the creator of The Incredibly
Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living And Became Mixed-up
Zombies. The Thrill Kiffers and other classic films.

they came up with this wild incoherent story. The

original footage was shot a long time before the movie
was shot, so when they integrated it together you see
things like, when they cut back and forth, the length of
the girl's hair will change; she's wearing tons of
makeup in one scene and absolutely none in the next
It was real rich with that sort of detail.

I think "intelligence" imposes

order and clarity where none exists.
I'm definitely against that. just like I'm
against rationality and determinacy
and seriousness and so on ....
The plot is that they go out to have a picnic and visit
some old professor, but when they get out there the
house has been smashed in. Then they run into some
old kook living in a cave who croaks, "You want the
book! You want the book, don't you?" "We don't want
the book." But he gives it to them anyway, and it's an
old Black Magic book. They read it and accidentally
call up these monsters, these big gumby-ish
monsters ....
Decoy for Terror is about a demented artist who
kills his models because they won't stay still. He's trying to paint a painting of a dream that torments him,
and he thinks that if he paints the dream it will stop
tormenting him. But he can't find a girl who can stay
still long enough for him to ....
R/S: What else will your book have in it?
NON: It's got whole sections on sexploitation, ISD
films, beach party BIros, drivers' ed BIros .... There's
interviews with major Bgures like Ray DennisSteckler
who made The Incredibly Strange Creatures.
R/S: Are there any I5D-sexploitation films jn there?
NON: Yes, several. There's a drug-Little Red Riding
Hood sexploitation film. Little Red Riding Hood is this
hippie girl who goes to take some grass to grandmoth-

Boyd administering personal variation of acupuncture therapy. (Photo: Bobby Adams)

er's house. The wolf sees her, follows her there and
gobbles up grandmother, and is dressed as grandmother when Red gets there with the grass. Then I
guess they smoke some dope and have sex. The wolfis
wearing a great wolf mask that looks absolutely
crazy ....
All these mros compose a def"tnite genre but not in
any traditional sense. All these films are tied together
by something excepttonalwhich can definitely be perceived yet not easily def"wed It's usually a combination of different factors in each mm. Sometimes it's
using sets that are real places and actors that are real
people; sometimes it's the actual plot and dialogue,
sometimes it's because a film is low-budget-there are
an almost limitless combination of reasons why a f"tIm
will be exceptional. Many of these f"tlms are overlooked because they can't be readily categorized in
any genre. Some films succeed in spite ofhuge budgets
(The Ten Commandments). Other f"tlms remain sleepers for years until some accidental discovery by some
famous "critic" brings them widespread public attention (Peeping Tom).
Most f"tlms, you go see them and right from the
beginning you know how they're going to turn outthe characters aren't believable and even if they were
convincing, they're so uninteresting you wouldn't care
what happened to them anyway. No amount of technique or style in a ("tim can help such a basic situation.
A lot of the f"tlms in this book are considered to be
bad, and yet in a strange way they succeed where all
the others fail. It's a shame most of these f"tlms are
obscure, because they're far "better" than what people
consider to be "great films"-they're more entertaining, more unusual, yet more genuine and more truly
effective. For one reason or another, all the films I
discuss seem to transcend all the cinematic criteria
that are usually applied That is why they're all Incredibly Strange Movies!

Javier Escovedo (of the Zeros) and Boyd Rice in Tijuana. 1977. having purchased switchblades
and pointed shoes.



RIS: Have you ever played any practical jokes?
NON: When I was younger my friend Barry Alfonso
and I used the phone to test out people's credulityjust to see how far you could go. We'd pretend to be
delivery persons- people would get really scared that
we would deliver something they didn't want or hadn't
We had a double-talk phrase that was incomprehensible-just below the threshold ofunderstanding. They'd ask, ''What are you going to deliver?" and
we'd say, "Well, we have a ga-shack-gonna-have-ahear, and we have to bring it by some time today-it's
been on the loading dock for awhile and we have to
get rid of it." They'd say, "You have a what?" and we'd
Boyd Rice at the Main Street Station, Disneyland, 1964.

say, "Yeah, is there going to be somebody there to sign

for it?" and they'd say, "But what do you have?" and
we'd just keep skirting the issue and they'd be afraid
that we were going to deliver something they'd have to
pay for.
Every once in a while we'd call up and the person
would ask, "Oh, are you from Sears? Is it about the
couch?" And we'd say, "Yeah, we've got the couch, ...
Did anybody call you about that smoke damage?" And
they'd say, "What smoke damage?" We'd say, ''Well, it
wasn't really burnt in the warehouse, but it's mostly
on the back-you won't even see it. But the discount
will probably be on the bill." They'd say, "Hey, wait a
minute-what are you talking about?" We'd say, "Is
somebody going to be there around 2:30?" And they'd
say, "Hey, wait a minute!" andwe'd say, ''Well, we'll see
you at 2:30-have someone home to sign for itl" and
hang up as they were saying, "Wait a minute-"
We got a woman to cry over the phone.
Rls: How?
NON: We called up a woman and told herwe were the
police and that we had her daughter-her daughter
had been down in this main part of town indecently
exposing herself and setting f'tres. And the woman
goes, "Omigod! I've been expecting something like
this." And we said, "She was with a bunch of Hare
Krishnas at the time." And the woman goes, "Oh, my
god. I knew my daughter knew some Hare Krishnas- I
knew something like this was going to happen. Oh, my
god." And it got worse-everything we'd say, the
woman would go, "Oh, no no no."
Then she started crying, "I'm sorry-excuse me, I'm
sorry to act this way." And I said (deep voice), "I understand. ma'am, I have a daughter of my own .... Ordinarily we'd just release her into your custody, but
arson's a pretty serious charge-you better come down
to the Sheriffs sub-station right away." She sobbed.
"I'll call my husband at work and we'll be right down."
Rls: You're tapping into a set of verbal and behavioral conventions, ferreting out people's vulnerability. By sounding
"official" and evoking their obedience-to-authorityconditioning, you can manipulate them into all kinds of seemingly
correct but ludicrous behavior.
NON: You can do it in person sometimes, but over the
phone you can do it to anybody. One time, at about 2 in
the morning, Barry and I picked one guy out of the
phone book and woke him out of a sound sleep. Barry
said. "Hi! I'm sorry to call you up this late at night, but
my friend and I just got into town, and you said ifl ever
came to town to give you a call. So here I am." Meanwhile, you could hear the wife in the background real
groggy, coming in and saying, ''Who is it? Who is that?"
And Barry says, ''Well, we're going to look for a motel
tomorrow, but it's kind of late tonight-do you think
maybe we could come over and stay with you?" And the
guy says, "Vh, well, sure-I don't see why notl" So
Barry says, "I'm sorry to inconvenience you- I know
it's late, but I'm not familiar with this town at all; can
you give me directions on how to get to your place?"
And the guy starts giving him really clear instructions,
but Barry keeps getting confused and asking him more
and more directions, f'mally saying, ''Well here-talk
to my friend-he's more familiar with the town." And
he handed the phone over to me.

Boyd Rice at "The Happiest Place In The World."

I said, "How do we get over to your house?" and the

guy was explaining. And I said, "Oh, I hope these bags
of cement we have won't be a problem." And the guy
says, "Huh?" I say, ''We've got quite abitofcement,and
we kinda need some place to put it for a week or so.
How are you fixed for space?" And the guy says, ''Well,
my wife and I are in a mobile home, and we don't have
much room." I said, ''Well, there aren't many ofthesemaybe you could move the couch out and put them
between the couch and the wall. It wouldn't take up
much room. Or, you could put 'em on the grass, and
I'm sure a week of cement on that grass wouldn't kill
it." And the guy was saying, "Cement?" and I said, "Oh,
you know-these bags."
The guy's wife was getting real pissed off in the
background, saying: "Who is it? WHO-:5 coming to stay
here?" and you could hear him arguing with his wife.
Then the wife grabs the phone away from the guy and
says, "Listen, I don't know who you are, but this is
kinda late at night. Can't you find a motel room?" And I
said, ''Well ... we're strangers in town, and we'd really
feel uncomfortable staying in a motel room." Then I
said, "Hey! But how's this? We could pay for you to go to
a motel room and then we could sleep in your trailer. I
think we'd like that a lot more!" Then the lady says, real
mad, "We aren't going to go stay in any motel roomYOU stay in a motel room! WHOEVER you are!"
It's amazing how people are willing to go along with
anything, no matter how outrageous it is. I've had

people almost ready to get on a plane and fly across the

R/S: Come on!
NON: I really did one time. This was in England. I
called up this British guy who worked as a session
musician doing back-up vocals and said, "Hi. I'm calling from the 'States." I sounded American, so he
bought it. I said, ''We need you for some sessions in
NewYork-we're going to be laying down some heavy
tracks" and all this double-talk. And the guy completely bought it. I could have said, "Hey, howwould it
be if you get a ticket on a plane and come right over
and we'll pay you as soon as you get here?" but we
didn't take it that far. We just didn't call him back; we
let him fantasize for awhile. He'd really screwed over a
friend of ours-that's why we'd called him.
R/S: Why do you think people are still interested in Manson?
NON: There's a human instinct that wants or needs
that kind of focus-like, why are people so fascinated
with Hitler 40 years after his death? I think we're talking about people not having anything in themselves.
In Manson's case he probably represents a kind of
self-actualization that people unconsciously would
like to have but can't.
Most people, when you ask them who they aretheir personalities seem to be def"rned by what they
likeR/S: And what they buyNON: The rock stars they listen to, the 1V shows they


Boyd beneath a crossroads of the world. (Photo: Bobby Adams)

watch. . .. You ask a Star Trekkie, you know- that

def"IDes their whole personality and shapes their
whole lives. Take away that input and they'll be
nothing. And almost everybody's like that to an
extreme degree. People have forgotten what it's like to
be living and walking around, having direct experience or real feelings.
In a field of vision your mind sees everything. Like
whenever I'm with people I'll always be the first one to
see cats-I really like cats. And other people'll go, "I
don't see any cats"- then they'll notice them.
R/S: Your knowledge and desires influence your visionNON: That was obviously the case with Adolf Hider.
From the time he was a child he knew exactly what he
wanted to do, what he was going to do, and he felt it so
deeply and his fantasies about it were so vivid that he
didn't even know where fantasy stopped and reality
started, and consequendythey just blended. He always
acted like everything he thought was going to be an
actuality, and in fact it happened!
When he was a youngster, he drew these complex
plans for completely redesigning the city he grew up
in. His friends thought he was just a nut becausehow's a kid ever going to be able to do that? Yet he
never doubted that he could do it. Eventually he got to
the position where he canied out these plans, down to
the most minute detail.
R!S: That's what surprised me about this book on Nazi insignia I was reading. There were hundreds of awards, like a
certain gold one for women with over 15 children, a silver one
for women with over lO-rewards for every conceivable
achievement. But despite this diversity of design, Hitler had to
personally approve each one before they could be manufactured. And he must have had a million other things to do as
NON: Well, when you're in a position like that you
want to make sure that everything's done right! Ifl was
leader of a country, I wouldn't want some kind of
award to go out that I didn't know about. Like-who the
hell put that out? It's like making records-you don't
want to leave important things like the design up to
record companies.
R/S: Hitler and Manson are amazing-their power came
from other people believing in their words.
NON: People always believe that there's a right thing
to believe, or that eventually they're going to hit upon
it, someday. Or they'll think they're pretty right but
that eventually they'll run into some person who's
more right than themR/S: That's the guru pathologyNON: Basically people don't want to give up what
they believe in, and even worse- give up belief altogether. 'Cause people can see inserting another belief,
and saying, ''Well, I won't believe in this anymore but
I'll believe in that." That's easy, but people can't just
remove aU belief. Because they've always had "standards" to judge things by, and If they removed all
beliefs, they just wouldn't know how to exist!
People think they know: "Oh, look at that ugly person!" Or, "look at this tacky paintingl" But somebody,
somewhere, has told them what's what. And then they
wonder why they can't enjoy themselves more! Why
there isn't more to life than this?
I kind of always never put any value in what everybody told me. At the same time, I thought that things



Boyd Rice and laurie O'Connell at the Spahn Ranch just before it
burned down in 1982.

that seemed superficially to go against these values

didn't really have any value either. I'd be in church
looking around at people and thinking, "Now these
people can't reaUy be believing all this. They can't
believe a word this guy's saying." So I got interested in
witchcraft and Satanism, then I thought, ''Well that's a
crock of shit too-all Satan is, is just the opposite ofall
that other crap I don't believe."
So there was a whole spectrum of other values- not
just religion, that I didn't believe in or think was
important. When people rebel against religion, they
just give it credence. If they really didn't believe, they
wouldn't do a thing about it. They'd just go on with
their lives.
R/S: Don't you think rebellion is important?
NON: People prefer to have a symbol of rebellion
that they can buy, or pay homage to. To fuel their
conversations. Something that in reality isn't the least
bit rebellious at all.
Take James "Rebel Without A Cause" Dean. Well-he
didn't rebel against anything!" The things he believed
in were "common decency" and "doing the right
thing." He was supposed to be the only decent guy in a
corrupt and twisted world-where values had become
corrupt. But all he ever was, was a "decent guy" who
just had the same ideas that everybody else has.What a


~".: ' ~',

_ . " .... '1,

At the scene of a serious accident in los Angeles, 1981. (Photo: Andrea Juno)
Run/Sandie Shaw
Kusse Unterm Regenbogen/Manuela
love & Kisses/ "
Horch, Was Kommt Von Draussen Rein/ "
Es 1st Zum Weinen/
ABC/ "
Wenn Du leibst/
Helicopter US Navy 66/
Hundert Jahre Und Noch Mehr/Peggy March
Spar Die Deine Dollar/
Wedding In My Dreams/
Puppe Mit Oem Goldnen Haar/ "
Male Nicht Den Teufel An Wand/
Die Maschen Der Manner/ "
Einmal Verleibt, Immer Verleibt/ "
Ein Boy Wie Du/
Uttle John/
Ich Hab Ein Herz Zu Vershenken/
Goodbye Goodbye Goodbye/
He:lo Heartache, Goodbye love/
It's Easier To Cry/Shangri-la's
Indian Giver/Annette
Party Girl/Bernadette Carol
The Big Hurt/Susan Rafey
Popsicles & Icesicles/Murmaids
Mal Nein Sagen Konn'n/Gitte

Hei, Hei, Hei, Mein Herz 1st Nicht/ "

Mehr Frei/Ric Gerty .
Cease To Resist/Beach Boys (rip-off
of Manson song "Cease To Exist")
Sick City/Manson
Cease to Exist/Manson
Big Iron Door/Manson
People Say I'm No Good/Manson
Home Is Where You're Happy/Manson
look At Your Game, Girl/Manson
I Once Knew A Man/Manson
Eyes Of A Dreamer/Manson
I'll Never Say Never To Always/
Manson Girls
1) Dumbhead/Ginny Arnel (A tale of stupidity
and self-hatred)
2) I Wish I Knew What Dress To Wear/Ginny
Arnel (Decisions, decisions)
3) Rebel Rider/Annette (Death Before
4) Roses On The Sea/Peggy March ( " )
5) Endless Sleep/The Poppy Family (love &
Death & Water)
6) Bermuda/linda Scott (Further love, Death
& Water. Recorded in pre-Triangle days)
7) There's No Blood In Bone/Poppy Family (A
love song)

8) The Sun Goes Down/OD,D, B, M&T (A

man about to die)
9) Seasons In The Sun/Terry Jacks ( " )
10) Nightmare/lori Burton (Fake Shangri-las'
song by 60's singer-songwriter)
11) leader Of The Pack/The Compacts (Fake
group from a 60's compilation lP. listen
12) Motor Beine/Benny Quick (No comment)
13) Feelin' Groovy/The Specialists (Hip ren(Hip rendition of the 60's standard)
14) Help Yourself/The Now Sound of Sandi &
Salli (Wild version of the Tom Jones classic)
15) California Nights/The King Cousins (Blissfully bland version of Lesley Gore's hit)
16) Cherry Hill Park/The Specialists
(Extended version; a pulsating freak-out)
17) On The Trail/The Charles Randolph Grean
Sounde (A personal favorite for over 10 years)
18) No Matter What Shape Your Stomach's
In/The New Classic Singers (Vocal orgy)
19) Spinning Wheel/The Specialists
20) The Age of Aquarius/The Specialists
(Insightful astrological excursion)
21) Everybody's Talkin' At Me/ "
22) Aries/The Zodiac ("A Real Trip")
23) Tiger/Krista (A salute to Abba by the wellknown trio, Krista)


.: :~.~ :'. .

,. . .........., ':.

:'.;:. ,",1'




' '


... - .....

. N' ....
.. ....

Killer/about Carl Panzram
Six Years With God (Jonestown)
Impressions of Africa/by Raymond Roussel
The Encyclopedia of Barbie Dolls
Will You Die For Me7lTex Watson
The Psychopathic God (Hitler)
The Complete Books of Charles Fort
Your Children/by Charles Manson
My Life With Charles Manson/Paul Watkins

Mondo Bolordo
The Cool and The Crazy/Wm Whitney
Reform School Girl/Edward Bernds
The 17 Floodgates
Death Smiles on a Murderer/Massaccesi
Day The Earth Froze/Julius Strandberg
House of Dark Shadows/Dan Curtis
In the Land of the Headhunters
Badlands/Terrence Malick
Pretty Poison/Noel Black
-30-/Jack Webb

Alarma (Mexican)
Alerta (Mexican)
Homicidio (Mexican)
Weekly World News
California Highway Patrol

All Films: Ray Dennis Steckler (The Incredibly Strange Creatures That Stopped
Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies.
Thrill Killers. Wild Guitar. etc)
All Films: Ted V. Mikal (Astro Zombies.
Corpse Grinders. Worm-Eaters. etc)
All films: Joe Sarno (Young Playthings.
Moonlighting Wives. etc)
All Films: Herschell Gordon Lewis (Gruesome Twosome. 2000 Maniacs. etc)
Decoy For Terror/Enrick Santamaran
Dementia (Daughter of Horror)/John Parker
Equinox/David Allen & Jim Danforth
Mondo Cane/Gualtiero Jacopetti
Mondo Bizarro/Cresse & Frost
Love Camp 7/

The Incomparables
(every record recommended):
Peggy March
Lesley Gore
Annette Funicello: The Story
of My Teens. etc.
Martin Denny
The Paris Sisters Sing From The
Glass House
Johnny Crawford/His Greatest Hits
Johnny Crawford/I Wanna Be A Good Guy
The Poppy Family Featuring Susan Jacks
LIE by Charles Manson
The Things We Did Last Summer/
Shelly Fabares
Manuela: Die Grosse Erfolge
Sandie Shaw: Pye file series
Space Escapade/Les Baxter

At Alfred Jarry's old residence on Rue Cassette. Paris. 1979

Choo Ja Kim: Golden Hits

Filipinki: It's Us!
Meet Ginny Arnel
Dark Shadows
Susan Rafey: Hurt So Bad
Diane Renay: Navy Blue
The Legendary Stardust Cowboy:
Who's Knockin' On My Door (45)





THE BLACK ALBUM. First Boyd Rice LP.
Released with solid black cover and no title.
Later re-released on Mute with glossier cover
embossed with Boyd Rice in lower rig ht corner.
Playable at any speed.
First Non single. Besides the songs it came
with 3 loop grooves. Extra hole allows record to
playoff center. Re-released on Mute records.
Live recording of "Knive Ladder" was the first
song of the first Non concert.
DARKER SKRATCHER (compilation LP).
Contains "Cleanliness & Order" by Boyd Rice
and Daniel Miller. Also contains version of NonWatusi that somehow changed completely
between the time the tape was mailed and the
record was pressed. Exactly what happened
still remains a mystery to all those involved.
PAGAN MUZAK. First Non album. Contains
17 loop grooves. playable at any speed. Also
has second hole for off axis playback. First
pressing contained one side with grooves. the
other blank. Second pressing contained the
same grooves on both sides. 7" disc in 12"
cover. Second pressing had serial #3301
etched in record.
RISE. 12" Non single. Also contains "Out
Out Out." a live recording from S036 in Berlin.
and "Romance Fatal Dentro De Un Auto"
recorded in 1978. Mute Records #015.
FRANK & BOYD. An album done in collaboration with Frank Tovey (of Fad Gadget).
Recorded in London the week before Rise. As
yet unreleased by Mute Records.
PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. An album of live
Non performances recorded over a period of
years in Los Angeles. London. Dusseldorf.
Paris. Berlin. Mute Records.


. .-:.




A bit from the BLACK ALBUM was used on
an album released by United Dairy records in
England. No further information available.
A track from PAGAN MUZAK was used by
German group Der Plan as background for a
piece they contributed to a German compilation album. Again. no further information
Horrible bootleg tape LIVE AT THE PRESS
CLUB features the worst Non set ever. but also
contains a version of Charles Manson's "Sick
City." sung by Boyd with Laurie O'Connell and
backed up musically by the Meat Puppets.
Watch for Boyd Rice's forthcoming book.
Incredibly Strange Films. co-written with Jim
Morton of Trashola. the monthly newsletter for
fans of the grotesque. which is available free
(send $3.50 to cover postage) from Jim
Morton. Suite 583. 109 Minna St, San Francisco CA 94105.











Above photo of Monte Cazazza and Tana Emmolo by Ric Soloway.

Preceding pages: serial photos of Monte & Cosey by G. P-Orridge; Dart Gun photo by Vale; large photo by Mark Berlin.

most nodergronnd artist io this handbook

is Monte Cazazza from San Francisco. His notoriety
stems from an erratic history of insanity-outbreaks
thinly disguised as art events, beginning in the early
1970's through the present future. Along with disrupting the Bay Area 'Dadaist scene' and ridiculing the
'Correspondence Art' network, he was the first to make
an artists' film featuring fist-fucking.
His territory was all and everything forbidden,
taboo, repulsive, sexually. politically and morbidly
explicit-transmuted into shock graphics, collages,
performances, sacrileges, photographs, films, videos,
records. interviews, writings and inventions.
Mr. Cazazza's work has given a new and deeper
forensic significance to the term 'hardcore.' The 'worst'
human impulses, desires and behavior as documented
by history and science are examined with an optically
predse scrutiny ....
Very few artists can prove by their history to have
pursued their life's aims with genuine disdain for society's opinions and rewards. It can safely be said that by
his work, which is mostly unprintable, Monte Cazazza
has demonstrated a focused, perverse commitment
undiluted by compromise for the sake of ambition or
the mere desire to please. A commitment that is the
only one justifiable: to the purity of one's inner vision,
fed from an endless resource in today's world: black
humor. And for today's world, laughter is the only
medicine left ....
R/S: Tell us your earliesl acts of mayhem?
MONTE: There were lots of acts of mayhem. When I
flrst had to go to school, I didn't like it. So I sat there for
about a week and just screamed Unbeknownst to me,
if I had sat there about another week I probably never
would have had to go to school, because they would
have ended up giving me a tutor, or something. But I
didn't know that, and my voice gave out before they
This was in catholic school in Philadelphia. I had
this nun who really hated me-she used to hit me all
the time. See, I was like the example- God's
R S: I thought that was iIlegalMONTE: Not in those schools-in those schools you
kneel to the boss, as Cabaret Voltaire would say. So
what happened was-one time she was smacking me
and f'mally I said I've had enough of this! and ripped
her habit off. Of course, her hair was cropped about
half an inch-all the kids thought she was totally
bald-and she flipped out. Then they sent me to see

the priest because they thought I was possessed ...

The look on her face was priceless. And she never hit
me again either after that.
R S: When did YOU leave home?
MONTE: The flrst time I started running away was
when I was about 9 years old I would hide in museums. I would hide in libraries. I even slept in a very
expensive hotel once. But then I would get caughtabout 3 days would be tops before someone, somehow, flgured out that I wasn't supposed to be where I
was, and get ahold of me, and start demanding who I
was and where I lived, and why wasn't I in school etc.
R S: Tell us aboul your High School experiences?
MONTE: My parents had moved to the suburbs,
which I detested immediately. I hated everyone that
lived there. So in high school, literally, for one year I
didn't talk to anyone. Just went to school, sat in the
very last seat in the flrst row, and didn't talk to anyone
because I didn't like anyone there. No one knewanything about me, I was just this person, and mostly they
left me alone. I didn't have any friends in high school
and I didn't want any.
The police, though, came to arrest me once. I had
this business going where I would shoplift cartons of
cigarettes-my whole locker was fllled with cigarettes.
And I was selling them to everyone very cheap.
Teachers, everyone. I used to go into these 2 big supermarkets with my gym bag and I would just ml it up
with cartons of cigarettes and go home. And one time I
got caught shoplifting. The store people called the
police and they showed up. Somehow they flgured out
that I must have been doing this for a long time,
because of their inventory or something. I don't know
how they added 2 and 2 together, but ... flrst they
talked to me, and then let me go home. Later on they
got a warrant to search my locker. So I'm sitting in
history class and these police come in and tell me I
have to go with them. I wouldn't tell them the combination of my locker, so they smashed it open and
found the whole thing just totally fllled with
cigarettes. And I thought I really was in a lot of trouble
On top of old smokey
All covered with blood
I shot my poor teacher
With a forty-five slug.
With a forty-five slug
I blew out her brains
They then had me committed
For the criminally insane.
They said to plant flowers
On the grave of that old maid
They said to plant flowers
Instead I threw a grenade
-Monte Cazazza. 1975

then, but actually nothing else happened beyond that

point. They just conf'lscated them all and told me I
better not get caught shoplifting again ... and I better
not sell any more cigarettes ....
I think that because all the teachers were buying
cigarettes, they were all kind of implicated. They
asked me what I was doing, and I said I was just trying




to make money and better myself, in the American

way. The best thing was that I didn't smoke!
R/S: Do you remember some books more important to you?
MONTE: ThiefsJournal byJean Genet, which I gave a
very explicit unappreciated book report on. I used to
go to this porno store and they would let me buy all of
the Olympia Press books in the green covers published by Maurice Girodias because they didn't have
any pictures in them. I had a deal with this guy
because I sold him cigarettes really cheap. I had a
whole collection of them: Tropic of Cancer, Naked
Lunch, StradeUa, Whip Angels, etc. etc. Someone I
would like to interview very much is Maurice
Girodias-I think he's a very important person who's
never really gotten the credit he deserves. He took a
lot of chances, publishing those books at that time in
the early Sixties-most of those books would have
never seen the light of day-or the black ofnight- if it
wasn't for him.
Another of my favorite authors was Daniel P. Mannix, who wrote a book on the Roman games called
Those About To Die; a book on a nineteenth-century
English cult called The HeUfire Club; Memoirs of a
Sword-SwaUower; and a book on Aleister Crowley,
The Beast Mr. Mannix caused me to search out other
books in these veins. I found a good book called The
Bad Popes-definitely not approved by the Catholic
church! Also, Ballantine Books published a number of
books in a series- one was titled Rumor, Fear, and The

Portrait of Mary Bell by Val Denham/Lyrics: M. Cazazza.

Madness of Crowds (by J.P. Chaplin)-which from a

historical viewpoint are quite good, because they
really give you a trashy, but concrete view of what
went on, and humanity in general.
You get to see how the world really works from
books like that. They're not the kind ofbooks that your
high school history teacher is going to recommend
you read, but I recommend you read them!
R/S: Most people don't get their information from books,
but from the newsMONTE: There's a secret broadcasting station in
Europe, the European Broadcasting Union. They're
broadcasting film 24 hours a day, from all the hotspots
like Iran or Ireland. It's on all the time, unedited,

broadcasting on this special frequency. You need an

extra large aerial to pick it up, but you can get it on a
regular lV with a special converter box. That's how
they get a lot of what they show on newsreels-they
just chop out bits to use for a story in the evening ....
They've been trying to train people for newscasting
so when they're telling a lie, there's no stress in their
voice. So even if you were monitoring with a stress
analyzer, you wouldn't catch it. I want to get one of
those really bad: you can watch lV, and if someone's
giving a speech, you can tell immediately whether or
not they're lying.
A lot of big businesses have voice stress analyzers
hooked up to their phones, so when someone's quoting their "lowest price" or whatever, they can go,
"Hmmm, I think he's probably lying. ... "
R/S: How can you beat that, or lie detectors in general?
MONTE: A good little trick that I read in a crime book
is: if you ever have to take a lie detector test, what you
do is, you keep wiggling your toes, right? For some
reason it wrecks the test. If you just keep on doing that
they can't tell what the hell's going on. These 2 murderers discovered it accidentally. So simple-that's
what you have to do.
R/S: That kind of information used to be unavailable. Since
the Freedom of Information Act, the CIA must be doing
something to maintain their secrecy-they're not going to
give that up without a whimperMONTE: The CIA's transferring all their information

Three faces of Charles Milles Manson. b. Nov 12, 1934.

onto videodiscs. They've developed something like a

Need To Know code-unless you have the code, you
can't find any bit of information. There's something
like 30,000 bits on each disc-you could spend your
whole life looking for it and never find it. The Freedom of Information Act got them into so much trouble
that now they want to get rid of all printed material:
"You find it- we don't know where it is. But we can't
let you look through all these discs, because all the
information's stored randomly, and a lot of it's
sensitive. "
R/S: , .. How did you happen to write a song on Mary Bell?
MONTE: I've always been interested in criminals and
criminology. The first time I was in England Mary Bell

escaped. The second time I was there she was coming
up for parole. Every time I was there she was in the
news. So it just coincided-I read the book on her, The
Case of Mary BeU, and thought it was interesting ... and sat down and wrote the little nursery
rhyme. That's how it got on record.
R/S: Wasn't that record a nod in the direction of the Manson
girls (who recorded a nursery rhyme)?
MONTE: Well, it has other references. My perception
on it, whether it would actually occur, historically
speaking, was: after I'd be dead, little girls would be
jumping rope to that, and no one would remember
where it came from-it'd just end up being this jump
rope song, which I hope, after I'm dead, happens.
R/S: What attracted you to Manson?
MONTE: What attracted all these thousands of other
people to him? What attracted CBS, ABC, NBC, all these
newspapers? I'm not the only person attracted to him.
When you start looking at all the aspects involved, it's a
really interesting case. He didn't get a fair trial-he
didn't have a snowball's chance in helll-the president declaring him gullty-it's a very complicated
case. Technically, I don't think he should be in prison.
I don't think anyone really knows what went on in that
case except the people directly involved. The trial was
a shambles, the whole case very interesting: where it
occurred, who the victims were, and how everything
kind of tied it together. It was almost like fate that a lot
of that was going to happen. A real interesting reflec-

(because if he got executed, they might be next, and it

would set this precedent for other executions), and he
was under so much pressure to break down. What was
interesting was how he was able to maintain his persistence of vision, or just persistence, through all of
that. Everything, including all the lV coverage, was
just fascinating. And he looked great on television-he
looked like a saint, he looked likeJoan ofArc going off
to be burnt. When he went on his hunger strike, he
really looked beatific in his white prison coveralls,
when he told everyone to go to hell and not interfere
in his execution and let's get on with it! What he was
saying was, My life is a total mess, it's totally fucked up,
and I don't want to rot in prison for the rest of my life,
so it's preferable for me to be executed, and at least go
out with some semblance of dignity and style, rather
than be cut down inch by inch.
R/S: Isn't Jonestown also one of your main interests?
MONTE: Yes, and I hope to be doing a film about that
soon. I have a lot of material that hasn't really been
seen yet; material from the Peoples Temple auction.
The Government Report (The Assassination ofRepresentative Leo J. Ryan and the Jonestown, Gu;yana,
Tragedy Report) is a very good book. You can't get it
anymore; since Ronald Reagan came in they took it off
the shelves. And I would love to see the cklssified
version, because the gaps that are in the version I have
leave much to the imagination ....
I mean, there were a lot of people involved in that

Gary Gilmore Memorial Society. (Photo: Coum Transmissions)

tion of this culture and society.

R!S: At the London Wax Museum you can see Manson and
three of the girls. You can also see Gary Gilmore executed
before your very eyes, staged every 60 seconds.
MONTE: I'll have to go there and shoot my own
Super-8 film of that! Gary Gilmore's another person
I'm definitely interested in. Whatwas interesting to me
was not the crimes he committed. Here was this person
who was sentenced to be executed, and he decided,
Since I'm sentenced to death, the state should carry out
its responsibility and execute me. What was interesting was-the whole time this was going on there were
thousands ofpeople trying to stop him-the AUU, his
family, other prisoners who didn't want to be executed

whole thing-JimJones did not do all that by himself.

He had a lot of cooperation from a lot ofpeople in the
government. He knew almost every politician .... And
I have a lot of tapes ofdifferent prayer meetings-one,
I happened to be watching that Leonard Nimoy program on lV, In Search OJ, and they had this program
on psychic healing, and at the very end they had about
a twenty-minute segment of a healing thatJimJones
had done in Los Angeles. I just happened to have my
tape recorder on at the time.
And I got other tapes, including a tape ofthe last 40
minutes-on our record [California Babylon] all
those people screaming is from a prayer meeting. The
last 40 minutes where everyone is committing suicide



, ;~. ~~


"'";;" ;'t.

.:- ::. ~ ~ .


is very much calmer-that makes it really scary, I

think, because it's not all these people freaking out, it's
people lining up and taking their last drink and-there
are some children crying, but it's not total pandemonium. And, who made that tape-was it a CIA agent?
I even went to some meetings at the Peoples Temple
in San Francisco about 2 years before Jonestown.
Someone just told me I should go there, and I went
about 3 or 4 times to meetings that were open to the
public. Most of them that were public were only open
to the public for a certain amount of time, then you'd
have to leave and the meeting would continue on.
Really scary and really interesting at the same time.
Jones was very charismatic, without a doubt-very
charismatic and very knowledgeable in controlling
crowds. Very determined and in some ways a very
receptive person because he was able to receive all that
energy and use it, like a circular relationship in a way.
Any person, no matter who they are, can only handle
so much-he could only handle so much energy, and
they were giving him more and more and more. And it
gets to be like Catch-22, and I think that's what
R/S: How could he have avoided it?
MONTE: It's very hard, because it's very temptingit's like drugs. Just from doing a few concerts, I know
it's very tempting. If you don't know how to use the
energy, or what you're doing-it just gets totally out of

share a lot of responsibility for what happened, who

have never had any charges leveled against them-any
at all. Except for Larry Layton, and it looks like his case
is going to be dropped
But he just happens to be the scapegoat, in some
ways, for what actually happened But people like
Terry Buford might have their share of the guilt, and
nothing's going to happen to them. And if I have some
strange accident, like a truck hits me-you'll know
why! Because if you step on people's toes, you can
make dangerous enemies.... But if something
happens-it wasn't an acddentlJust like that CIA guy
they found in the snow with his pants pulled down, in
front of his cabin. He was the main prosecution witness for that CIA-Libya case with Frank Terpel. They
said that he died from exposure-but all he had to do
was break a window to get in. What a calling carodead with your pants pulled down ....
R/S: They don't even bother to cover up their crimes any
more ....
MONTE: They're just totally sloppy. But what can
anyone do?
R!S: Most of these criminals are men; doyou know ofexceptional women criminals?
MONTE: There's the Manson girls; the Honeymoon
Killers; SaraJane Moore, who tried to shoot the President; the Baader-Meinhof gang, all the women
involved in the SLA, etc. etc. There's more than they
will admit; they don't want to double the amount of


Dead of a gun.hol Wound

Jim Jones the teenager.

Jones-aid: contains arsenic

At the same time, all these other maniac religious

leaders-it's what they want, too. The thing that disturbed them about him was-Jonestown could have
blown the whole ball game for everybody. But it didn't,
because they squashed that fast. There were never any
giant investigations into what went on-the government report should have been a starter report. But
they realized there was too much at stake there-as far
as I'm concerned they swept that under the rug fast,
and nailed the rug down after they did
There was too much at stake. There were a lot of
government officials involved in that; a lot of integral
relationships that were never talked about, that never
came out. There are people running around now who

Jim Jones the boy.

imaginative criminals. They're having enough trouble

with all the lone male maniacs that are out there,
without having lone females, and couples who are
probably the most dangerous-they can watch each
other's backs.
R/S: Male and female crime actMONTE: Myra Hindley and Ian Brady. None of this is
very new-there have been ritualistic murders since
Day One, and probably every other type also. There is
a whole industry devoted to all that, so I'm not being
all that macabre ....
R/S: What about the vampire trial you attended?
MONTE: JimJocoy and I attended that. And we hope
to be doing a more extensive article on that in the

future. Believe me, he was a goner from the word
go-the jury had made up their mind way before the
trial was over to hang him high! They did At the same
time the Dan White trial was going on, and from my
viewpoint this guy, Richard Chase-if he wasn't
insane, nobody was. And Dan White gets to be found
not guilty and insane and Richard Chase, who definitely was insane, was found guilty and sane and sentenced to the gas chamber. So it was pretty interesting
watching these 2 cases occur at the same time.
R/S: I've read that the majority of criminals don't get caught.
MONI'E: Some people don't get caught. But it's not a
life I would recommend to anyone. If you're going to
do that, you better have a mental set that you're not
going to get caught. A lot ofpeople do these things and
they are sorry for them-they want to be punished,
which is why they get caught. These days there seem to
.be a lot fewer criminals with integrity.
R/S: What do you mean by integrity?
MONI'E: Well, it doesn't take much guts to snatch an
old woman's purse. And any of these so-called bad
dudes that are out there that think it does, are full of
shit. And I've met many of them in my brief stays in
jail, and they don't impress me one bit. I think there's a
difference between doing that and appropriating
something you may really need and use. Taking it
from a store or larger institution than yourself is a lot
more difficult, and requires a lot more intestinal fortitude than just victimizing someone who's weaker or

cation for getting it that way. I don't advocate atry type

of illegal activity, I think it's far better to not get
involved in the legal process-as far as I'm concerned,
jail is no place I want to be, nor do I want to see any of
my friends in there. Etc. etc. etc. Youdon'twanttoget
involved in that process-believe me, it is notworth it.
You have to know what your limitations are and
work within those, and if fate happens to present you
with a golden opportunity, well then you can make the
most of it!
But it can also get to be a form of addictive
behavior-which I think is very bad That's what happened to me when I had my little business dealing
cigarettes- it got to be so easy I was going totally mad
Walking out with ten cartons at once- could 1 make it
eleven? That's probablywhy I got caught. When it starts
becoming a form of addictive behavior, you should get
out of that immediately. Because people can't control
themselves. The trick is to not reach that point with
whatever you're involved in.
It's really hard to maintain that balance, because
you're not taught how to-you only learn from experience and from what other people can pass on to you.
I mean, I think there should be informative booklets
like, What Is Stealing For? What Is Sex For? What Are
Drugs For? I think there should be more research into
areas like that....
R/S: What are drugs for?
MONI'E: I don't think chemicals should be used for

-.; .

...: -

Sandy. Ouisch. Cathy, and Mary.

Myra Hindley

more defenseless than you are. I don't recommend

that people break the law. Then again, I don't not
recommend that people break the law. It depends on
the situation, what you're capable of and what you
think you can get away with, and what you're going to
do with what you appropriate. Sometimes you're just
taking something that no one wants anyhow. If you're
going to put it to much better use, I can see a certain
type of logic to that. But I don't think you just take
things to supply yourself with various thrills ... biochemical entertainment.
If you need a certain tool in order to accomplish a
certain project and the onlyway you can possibly get it
is by appropriating it, then there might be some justifi-

Ian Brady

entertainment purposes; I don't think that's their

R/S: Do you still do casualty simulation?
MONI'E: Yes. Sleazy taught me things, and I keep
practicing. You look at pictures in different books, and
then try and make it look even better! Maybe more or
less extreme depending on the situation. I'd like to be
doing a lot more ofthat, but materials are expensive. If
someone doing a film could really pay me, I could do a
lot more ....
R/S: What were you holding out on that poster?
MONI'E: A cow's heart. I tried to procure a human
one but I was under a deadline. Mine came from one of
those UFO experiments ...



. ,:~:






R/S: What's your interest in dream images?

MONTE: A lot of my work comes from dream images,
from dreams that I have, and a lot of my future work is
going to come from that. Because it's an area that I'm
interested in and pursue actively.
R/S: Do you keep notes?
MONTE: Yes, I keep journals, and I like to read other
peoples' dreams. If people want to send in dreams and
dream images. . .. A lot of my favorite t1lmmakers'
films deal with that aspect of things-that's what I'm
interested in.
R/S: Which filmmakers?
MONTE: Bunuel, Roman Polanski, Fellini, David
Lynch, Kenneth Anger.... The people that I preferthat's where their imagery comes from. A lot of it is
based on reality, too, but it's also intermixed with all
these things, just like your life is! When you're awake
you're awake, and when you're sleeping you're having
these experiences which in some cultures are considered more real than the ones you have when you're
R/S: Like the Senoi of Malayasia .... When Boyd Rice was
staying here, some of the most fun moments were getting up
in the morning-he'd say, "Oh' I had this amazing
dream .... " How do you keep up the discipline of keeping a
MONTE: I used to have a really big one, but one day in

a fit of despair and anger I burnt it, which was a very

bad loss for me. . .. You just have to try and force
yourself. It's best to do it as soon as you wake up or
shortly after-the most efficient way is to have it near
where you sleep. You have to kind of trainyourself. In
the morning, if you remember it, write it down right
away! Or at least tum on your tape recorder. Because
what will happen later is you will totally forget it- you
will not be able to recaQ it I've forgotten about a lot of
them; that's the way it works- you have to train yourselfto record them, and it is hard But you can increase
the percentage of the ones you remember by writing
them down.
There's one book called CreativeDreaming by Patricia Garfield-it's a little wishy-washy in some aspects,
but it can give you a few pointers.
I believe that you can use dreams to solve some of
your problems, and to try and manifest more of your
destiny. It is not easy, and does not work 100% of the
time, but nothing does. Nothing that is worth anything
is easy-it doesn't always work, and is not the total
answer-you can look at anything that way.
R/S: You mentioned an interesting word-destiny. How do
you think people can have that manifested to them, and work
toward fulfilling it?
MONTE: I think that you can, but you have to make
very difficult decisions about whether you want to do

People's Temple Children's Black Light Discipline Room. (Photo: Jim Jocovl

that or not! And you're going to have to pay a heavy

price. And it is not pleasurable-it's painful. There's
resistance-there's always resistance to anyone trying
to manifest their destiny, even if they're trying to do it
in the correct manner, because society is not structured to have people do that, and they don't want
people to. That's my perception.
I'm just speaking for myself, as always. I'm not
speaking for anyone else, or any philosophy, nor do I
want any followers or adherents. Because collaboration is great, but I don't need any fans! I'm only interested in dealing with people on a collaborative or
equal level. At any point in time, some people know
more from experience than others, but you can still
deal with people on an equal level, because who
/mows? Later on they may surpass what you're doingwhich is always the goal. Then one is doing one's job.
And it works out for everyone's benefit. It's like
evolution-one long big chain, you have to keep it
R/S: That's the only aspect of mail art that appeared
valuableMONTE: Yes, but I do not believe that it did, because a
lot of those people had no conception of what they
were doing-it became a fad. Genesis and I had a
conversation about that-someone had said, ''Well, do
you have examples of your mail art?" Some of them I
Monte next to his Los Angeles environmental artwork forcibly
exacted from convenient building wall. (Photo: Lynda Burdickl

have taken pictures of, but they were like personal

letters that I made for specific people. I don't have
them anymore-I didn't do them to print one thousand copies of them! They were letters that I did for
specific people, on specific topics, for that person.
They were not art to be put on some gallery wall or in
some magazine. And I think all these people got confused with doing that, and having these big shows with
just anything in it.Justbecause it was sent through the
mail made it mail art, but it didn't necessarily make it
of any value! I guess my viewpoint is more elitist than
other people's, but that's the way I am.
R/S: I don't think it's elitist, I just think none ofus have all the
time in the world. We have our work that we really want to do,
and we just want to get rid of every distractionMONTE: You do, and especially when people don't
want to put any effort into it. I get a fair amount ofmail
from people, and I answer a lot ofit, I'm not impossible
to get ahold of. I make ita little bit difficult, but that's to
separate people, because I don't have the constant
amount of time necessary. There are certain people I
have been writing to for a long time, but that's because
they put effort into what they write to me. They don't
just write to ask for things-they send things to me
also. They enter into a dialogue.
R/S: Is it possible to state a reason for performing-or, your
next live performance?
MONTE: Okay. I don't know. One, I could just be an
egomaniac. Two, I'm just so disturbed that the only
way I can not totally lose my mind is by doing something. I don't know. I try and structure events so that
no 2 performances are ever exactly alike. It's just
something I fell into and started doing, and I didn't
have any ulterior motive.

R/S: Do you have any thoughts on developing the will?

MONTE: Yes, I think that psychology is half the battle. And probably anyone can do almost anything. It's
just their lack ofself-confidence, and derogatory training, that stops them. And it's a really sad fact that makes
the world a much less interesting place. It's humanity's
loss that this is still continuing to happen.
In some ways I've been lucky, just because ofcertain
chances. But I also capitalized on those chances when
they occurred, and tried to recognize them-butactually I've decided that I didn't capitalize on them
You shOuld be doing work because you want to do it.
Yon think it'svaluable and worth doing. And maybe it's
just part of your personality. That's a really involved
and very complicated question, and I don't really think
there is one total answer; there's all these different
types of answers that enter into it. And as Mark Pauline
would say, "All work is dirty." It's all dirty work no
matter what it is, and that's the way it is. Ifpeople don't
realize that, and they are going to get into these forms
of activity, they should stay out of them if they don't
expect that. And they should not interfere in our
work-because it's hard enough to do already. No one
is writing you big checks-all along, what you've done
is because you wanted to do it.
R/S: Well, isn't this a masochistic society?
MONTE: I want to take my rightful sadistic place!
From my viewpoint ofthe people I know, whose work I
appreciate, their reasons for working are not just
money or status, but reasons that spring from their
basic emotions. Reasons that money cannot buy!
Because if it doesn't come from that, then all of this is
for naught....


(Brief Conversation Between Monte Cazazza, Henry

MorgenthauJr, AndreaJuno & Vale)
MONTE: Did you see NASA's projection for colonies
in space, with golf courses and shopping centers?!
That's the last thing I need .... Do you read Aviation
Week and Space Technology?
HENRY: Yes, they were the first to break the news
about Russian particle beam weapons. The diagrams
showed massive cylinders of metal surrounded by the
beam projectors. If anything could start a war, it could
be a breakthrough in anti-missile technology. Once a
nation has a 99% kill rate on incoming missiles, it can
get aggressive with impunity.
MONTE: Well if you built it flrst, you might decide,
"We can have the first strike!"
HENRY: Everybody calls America imperialist, but at
the end of WWlI just about every other industrial
nation was decimated and we were the ones with the
atomic bomb. If we had really wanted world control,
we could have taken it right then. We are the only
country in the entire history of earth that had a wideopen chance at world domination-it was just sitting
in our laps, but we let it go.
MONTE: If America had listened to General Patton,
all the Russians would be speaking English now!
VALE: It's the propaganda war now. Howdoyou think mind
control works?
HENRY: Persuasion, subliminal advertising. It's
impossible to inspect all the lV commercials frame by
frame. They could be intersplicing pictures from
porno films into ads for wonder bread and rice crispies. They did this in The Exorcist, so I heard. In the
f"1rst edition of the film, they spliced in scenes of gruesome, bloody auto accidents from Red Asphalt and
Wheels ofTragedy. People were getting physically sick
because they were seeing these single frames spliced
in. Supposedly the producer ofthe f'tIm admitted to the
deed, and he took the frames out for the second
MONTE: In Thief, if you listen carefully you can hear
very low frequencies that are used subliminally to
create tension-just like you're right there stealing
something. If you've ever stolen anything you'll know
what I mean. It's a natural feeling you get in that
adrenalin-high state. Those low cycles are quite dangerous, physically dangerous. They can affect 'your
heart rate-if I had a computer and the time and the
money I could probably give you a heart attack with
Monte Cazazza and Cosey Fanni Tutti. (Photo: Genesis P-Orridge)

HENRY: You know resonant frequencies affect you. A

troop of soldiers marching across a bridge can set up
frequencies that shake the bridge apart. Nikola Tesla
understood this completely. He said that given a low
horsepower motorized pendulum swinging this little
weight back and forth, he could shake down the tallest
skyscraper in New York by putting it at the top and
slowly building up the vibrations. Each body structure
has its own resonant frequency which can be turned
against it. Strobe lights tuned to the right frequency
can make you nauseous. As a weapon you could aim
ultrasound at people with a point transmitter and a
parabolic reflector, andVALE: I thought strobes only affected epilepticsHENRY: Strobes can synchronize with anybody's
brainwaves. Epileptics are just super-sensitive.
VALE: Are you saying that epilepsy is a matter of degree?
HENRY: Right. There's grand mal epilepsy and petit
mal. They can be induced in anyone. Epilepsy is
hyperactive neural f"1ring. That's why they cut the corpus callosum-to stop this uncontrolled f"1ring from
spreading. Television can do something like that too.
The electron gun scans at a certain frequency that gets
your brain into the alpha wave state. That's the relaxed
state where you don't do too much thinking about
what's coming in, you just integrate it.
VALE: Why aren't people who absorb lots oflV data smarter?
MONTE: Because of what they're programmed with.
HENRY: You're in that state being imprinted with
bullshit-anti-perspirants and soaps. I'd like to think
that the massive rush of data is helping people, but I
read a study that correlated low intelligence with
amount of lV watched.
MONTE: You've got to develop a hypercritical mindHENRY: That's like dodging arrows. I guess that if you
can scan a tube and take the bullshit they tht-owat you
and see how it's bullshit a million different ways
(cause they're always trying to fool you)-that's good
experience for living in the real world.
BiUMoyers went around to a lot ofkindergarten kids
and posed the question, "If you had to chose between
never talking to your daddy again and never watching
lV, which would you choose?" More than half of them
would rather watch 1V!
VALE: Can a computer read your mind yet?
HENRY: It's a question of receptor technology.
They've found that when people think words, they
actually move the muscles in their lips and tongue as
though they were pronouncing the words out loudit's just the amplitude is lower. Knowing that, you can
infer neural f'tring in the motor cortex, and special
electrical waveforms associated with each word
I saw a demonstration with Rebecca Mahoney, a
hot-shot computer programmer, sitting in front of a
ClU wearing a hood which has a large number of disc
electrodes on the inside. She can think simple words:
near far left rightup down and stop and the computer
can analyze the EEG waveform and move a dot around
on the screen in accordance with her wishes. Multiple
electrode recordings allowed the computer to classify
the waveforms with a high degree of success. It is

actually the thought that produces the wavefonn

which the computer can recognize. This is technological mental telepathy-even though it's limited, it's a
MONTE: Don't you think that some people are just
extra-sensitive, and that's what mental telepathy really
HENRY: Definitely. Schizophrenics feel they are
receiving radio transmissions from other people's
brains, and that they are transmitting their own brain
waves to others. They could be people with very good
"neural hearing" who can hear sounds the rest of us
don't hear.
ANDREA: Isn't there an invention which electronically monitors the eyes so that paraplegics can push buttons just by

A whole nation could be held

hostage by their own genetic codes.
looking at them?
HENRY: I've seen the actual state-of-the-art devices at
SRI. Dr. Hewitt Crane showed me his invention which
is not only for wheelchair invalids but also for fighter
plane pilots who look at their targets, then push a
button to f"lre the missiles. That's probably the main
reason it's being developed How does it work? Your
eyeball isn't a completely round sphere. The colored
part ofyour eye sticks out a bit; that's why your contact
lenses don't slip into the white part of the eye.
They can bounce infrared beams offthat part ofyour
eye, and by gathering and analyzing the patterns of
reflected light, tell where you're looking in 3 dimensions. Since the shape of the lens changes to focus on
near or far objects, the light reflected off the front and
the light reflected off the back of the lens will fonn
different patterns depending on the focal length.
They're making new discoveries in pupillometry;
when you see something you like, your pupils will get
dilated They have pairs of pictures of girls, one unretouched and the other altered so as to have large pupils. Guys will always pick the girl with the dilated
pupils. More attractive. If they want to find out if somebody's gay, show them a homo porn flick, and watch
their pupils!
MONTE: Professional gamblers usually wear sunglasses so people can't check their pupils to see
whether they have a good hand
HENRY: These kind of technologies with military
applications are usually kept quiet. They have satellites with optical technology capable of reading
license plates and recognizing faces from orbit. If it's
the best it's probably top secret.
VALE: What do you know about control by drugs, like
HENRY: Honnones by definition are the natural
drugs of the body. They can't really make new hormones, but they can make new chemicals that mimic
natural honnones, like birth control pills.
MONTE: The receptors in your brain are shaped to fit
certain types of chemicals. Heroin works because it's
similar to the brain's natural opiates-endorphins and

HENRY: Tranquilizers generally suppress neural

activity. Any agent which is going to make it harder for
a cell to lue, anything which raises the threshold at
which firing occurs will depress central nervous system (CNS) activity. Shoot up speed, and there's a lot of
firing. People on downers-a lot calmer. Too much
speed can produce amphetamine psychosis.
VALE: How does genetic warfare work?
HENRY: It's possible to alter the genetic code with a
virus, which works parasitically by inserting its
genetic code into the nucleus of the cell, so that the
cell starts using that code to make more viruses. Sometimes, instead of immediately making more viruses,
the cell just incorporates the viral DNA code into its
own, going into hibernation, and then 5 or 10 years
later it can express itself. A cell which appears perfectly healthy can be a host for donnant infectious
viruses. That's a basis for a delayed action genetic warfare agent.
If you're going to set up a country for destruction,
you don't want to do it all at once, with people falling
dead in the streets. You want something that's going to
make them feel a little queasy, make their thought a
little hazy, and do it continuously over a time period of
months. A whole nation could be held hostage by their
own genetic codes. Put it in the water supply ....
MONTE: You never know about fluoridesHENRY: That's something the right-wingers were
right about. They didn't want fluorides perverting
their precious bodily fluids. Involuntary medical
treatment-I don't think that's right.
VALE: How does pain function neurologically?
MONTE: A lot of pain is a psychological interpretation of what under other conditions may not really be
painful. Like exercising-there's a certain amount of
pain associated with that, but it's not really pain.
VALE: The pleasure-pain equation.
HENRY: It was found that in the male monkey there
were separate systems for erection, for ejaculation,
and for orgasm. With an electrode in the separate
orgasm system the monkey would stimulate this
region and go through a total orgasm without erection
and without ejaculation. Given the apparatus with
which it could stimulate itselfonce every 3 minutes for
24 hours a day, the monkey stimulated this site and
had orgasms once every 3 minutes for 16 hours, then
slept 8 hours and started again the next day.
MONTE: Full time job.
HENRY: Sixteen hours-he's working a double shift.
There's reports where the monkeys self-stimulated to
total starvation. At the end they looked like concentration camp survivors.
MONTE: I have material telling how they tested the
effects of the neutron bomb on monkeys. They built a
big treadmill, had the monkeys wired up, and subjected them to neutron radiation. They put them on
the treadmill and with electroshock kept them walking
until they fell over dead The idea was to Imd out how
long soldiers could keep moving after they were
exposed to neutron radiation. I'd like to see those
films! See the flash, see them drop ....


. .





Monte is a necrophiliac in action. Rather than

stifling his nightmares, he throws them in the
face of the world. At the College of Arts and
Crafts in Oakland, his first sculpture consisted
of a cascade of cement that blocked the
entrance of the school. He was dismissed the
next day.
Passing from hospital into prison, he surfaced with pornographic collages in San Francisco. In 1971, invited to a weekend of
conferences on art in the woods, he brought
along an armed bodyguard and garnished the
food with arsenic. At breakfast he dropped
bricks painted with the word 'Dada' on the feet
of people convened to eat. And at the dinner
table he burned the partially decomposed,
worm-infested body of a cat. His bodyguard
blocked the exit and several guests fell sick
from the stench.
In 1974, Genesis P-Orridge and Cosey Fanni
Tutti were fascinated by a photo showing
Monte covered with blood on the cover of Vile
Magazine, vol. 1, no. 1. February 14 1985.
Together. they fabricated the famous Gary Gilmore Memorial card, posing blindfolded on
electric chairs. It was reproduced on T-shirts.
Six thousand copies were sold in Britain; it was
on the cover of the Hong Kong Daily News.
In 1977 Monte entered the studios of Industrial Records to record 'Plastic Surgery:
'Busted Kneecaps: 'Fistfuckers of America:
'Hate: and 'To Mom on Mother's Day.' His first
45 is out of print. A film was made with Th,obbing G,istle where Monte and a 14-year-old
boy were electrocuted. He plays also in the film
Deccadance of Kerry Colonna with razor
Monte seldom goes out, except on Halloween when he goes out with a cheap plastic
mask, a green army bag filled with livers and
hearts (like Hermann Nitsch) and the head of a
bloody mannequin used by medical students to
learn mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.
(T,anslated by Dalia Judowitz f,om New
Wave II 13, available f,om Aline Richa,d. P.R.

Videotape of performances at the SCALA

CINEMA and Live at OUNDLE SCHOOL (write
Industrial Records, 10 Martello St, London E.8,
Berkeley CA 94701; produced in collaboration
with Factrix. 1981)

GUERRILLA ART. Street activities and

events. For example, molotov cocktails left on
street. Large display titled "Defend Yourself'"
featured board with knives stuck in it (free for
the taking). Mannikins dressed as winos and
bag people left in alleys, with hidden cheap
cassette recorders playing tape loops of
screams and ranting and raving. Spring 1972.
Oakland, CA. USA.
June 1973. Censored.
FUTURIST SINTESI. Galeria 591. Sexreligious show; giant statue of Jesus got chainsawed and gang-raped into oblivion. Dec 21,
1975. San Francisco, CA. USA.
Shattuck Ave. Studios. Lecture with medical
slides featuring live demonstration of quick
separation of Siamese twins. May 16, 1976.
Berkeley, CA, USA.
DANCE. Shattuck Ave. Studios. Giant wall
construction of televisions and radios playing
for 3 days (& nights) straight. June 25, 1976.
Berkeley, CA, USA.
MANIC MOVEMENT. Collaboration with
Kimberly Rae. Berkeley Square. Kim tied up on
spring-mounted platform; Monte appears
squirming on floor in black body bag, cuts self
out, cuts Kim loose, then destroys toys and
props with hatchet to loud Romper Room
record. Ended in fire. Jan 30, 1981. Berkeley,

Bu,eau No. 93. 75010 Pa,is fo, 30 F,ench


TO MOM ON MOTHER'S DAY (45, Industrial
Records, IR 005, 1979)
Records, IR 0010, 1980)
MONTE CAZAZZA LIVE (C60 cassette, Industrial Records, IRC 28, 1980)
CALIFORNIA BABYLON (LP, in collaboration
with Fact,ix; $8 from Subterranean Records,
577 Valencia, San Francisco CA 94110; Sub
STAIRWAY TO HELL (SS 45-007, special
package with 45, $12 from Sordide Sentimental, B.P. 534, 76005 Rouen Cedex, France;

REVOLT 2000. 1974 (stolen from Monte).
DIARY OF A RUBBER SLAVE. 1974 (stolen).
MONDO-HOMO. 1974 (stolen).
MYSTERY MOVIE (in collaboration with Cosey
Fanni Tutti and Genesis P-Orridge, 1976)
DEATH WISH (in collaboration with Genesis
P-Orridge and Peter Christopherson, 1977)
SXXX-80 (in collaboration with Tana Emmolo
Smith, 1980)

1) "New York Correspondance School Exhibition under the auspices of Ray Johnson."
Whitney Museum. 1970. New York City, USA.
2) "Marcel Duchamp Club West:' organized
with Barry McCallion. San Bernardino Valley
College. Oct-Nov 1971. San Bernardino, CA,
3) Mostly Flowers Gallery. Mar-Apr 1973. San
Francisco, CA, USA.
4) "'nternational Encyclopedia." Anderson
Gallery. May-June 1973. Richmond. VA. USA.
5) Wall Mural. National Research Library.
1 973. Ottawa, Canada.
6) "Exhibition of Degenerate Art." Done in
collaboration with Stuart Horn at the South
Street Gallery. Pornography, violence, sex posters plastered all over; reconstructions of crime
scenes left on streets. Apr- May 1974. Philadelphia, PA, USA.
7) Hayward Annual Show. Curated by Genesis
P-Orridge at the Hayward Art Museum (Arts
Council of Great Britain). Room with 3 reading
tables, each displaying a large book filled with
correspondence from Skot Armst, Monte
Cazazza, AI Ackerman (The Blasters). Collages,
photos, news clippings. personal writing, small
objects, assemblages-some letters 3'x4' in
size. Lines of people waited to read the correspondence (which only proves that people love
gossip). July-Aug 1979. London, England.

F. CLUB, with Th,obbing G,istle and Clock
DVA. Tapes, synthesizer, processed voices
including recording of the Leeds Ripper. Tana
Emmolo on guitar. First music performance.
Feb 24, 1980. Leeds, England.
SCALA CINEMA, with Th,obbingG,istleand
the Leather Nun. All night Industrial Records
concert, with films of William S. Burroughs,
Brion Gysin, Kenneth Anger, Otto Muhl and
Herman Nitsch. Tana Emmolo in collaboration.
Feb 29, 1980. London, England.
OUNDLE SCHOOL, with Throbbing G,istle.
Performance in main lecture hall of all-boys
school. Special subliminal sex tapes; a near riot;
documented by video. March 16, 1980. Oundie. England.
KEZAR PAVILION. Performance spectacular
with Ma,k Pauline and Factrix. First time working with Ma,k. War machines; spinning swastika with Monte inside; Scott & Beth B films;
also showing of "Behind The Iron Curtain" by
Monte. Dec 6, 1980. San Francisco, CA USA.
BERKELEY SaUARE. Guest appearance
with Factrix. All music, more sedate show. Dec
12, 1980. Berkeley, CA.
Succubus" in collaboration with Fact,ix. Films,
slides, organic robots, dance by Kimberly Rae,
dart gun used for first time by Monte, electroshock, dental surgery on dead animal-machine.
Member of audience angrily attacked 'rabot'
with chair, shouting that it wasn't 'erotic.'
Video available. June 6, 1981. San Francisco,
L.A. PRESS CLUB, in collaboration with Factrix. Show featured medical and Hiroshima
slides, projections and slides by Ruby Ray, and
a new electronic torture device, The Tingle,.
Two people fainted from viewing "SXXX-80."
Sept 4, 1981. Los Angeles, CA USA.

(This booklist represents only a small
section of my library)
by William S. Burroughs:
Naked lunch
Soft Machine
Ticket That Exploded
The Job
etc. etc.
by Brion Gysin:
Brion Gysin let The Mice In
Here To Go
The Third Mind
by Daniel Mannix:
The Hellfire Club
The History of Torture
Those About To Die
Memoirs of a Sword Swallower
The Beast (on Crowley)
by lord Russell of liverpool:
Scourge of the Swastika
Knights of Bushido
by Colin Wilson:
The Occult
The Outsider
Order of Assassins
by Peter Beard:
Eyelids of Morning
End of the Game
by Yukio Mishima:
Forbidden Colors
Sun and Steel
Six Years With God/E.Milis
The Strongest Poison/Mark lane
Suicide Cult/Kilduff & Javers
The Assassination of leo J. Ryan
and the Jonestown, Guyana, Tragedy
Executioner's Song/N.Mailer
The Case of Mary Bell/Gitta Sereny
Theory & Practice of Hell/Eugene Kogon
House of Dolls/Ka Tzetnik
Diaries of Joseph Goebbels
The loves of Adolph Hitler/
Gerald McKnight
Inside the Third Reich/ Albert Speer
Spear of Destiny/Trevor Ravenscroft
Our lady of the Flowers &
Thief's Journal/Jean Genet
Music for Chameleons/Truman Capote
The Exorcist/William Blatty
Samuel Fuller/Nicholas Garnham
Velvet Underground/Michael leigh
Farouk/Michael Stern
Satyricon/ Petronius
Extremism U.S.A.!John Carpenter
Helter Skelter/Vincent Bugliosi
The Family/Ed Sanders
Killing of Sharon Tate
Child of Satan/Child of God by
Susan Atkins
My life With Charles Manson/
Paul Watkins
Assassin's Diary/Arthur Bremer
Mass Murder in Houston/John Gurwell
Man with The Candy/Jack Olsen
Colour Atlas of Forensic Pathology
Colour Atlas of Human Anatomy

Transvestism/David O. Caudwell
Sexual Secrets/Douglass & Slinger
Novo Vision/Yves Adrien
Andy Warhol's Index Book
Andy Warhol: Stockholm Exhibition
SHOTGUN NEWS $15 subscription from Box
669, Hastings NE 68901.

-Schmuck #1, 12/72. Beau Geste Press,

Great Britain.
-File. vol 1 #2-3, 1972. Toronto, Canada.
-8x10 Art Portfolio, 6/72. NY, NY.
-Fluxshoe, 9/72. Beau Geste Press, Arts
Council, Great Britain.
-N. Y.C.S. Weekly Breeder, Vol 3 #3, 1972.

-International Image Exchange Directory.

1972. Talon Books, Canada.
-N. Y.C.S. Weekly Breeder, Vol 3 #6, 1973.
San Francisco, CA.

-One Thousand Dollar Proposition. 1973.

-All Star Correspondants Calendar, 1974. Pub
by Stuart Horn.

-Vile #1 {Cover}, 2/74. San Francisco, CA.

-Nitrous Oxide #1 (Editor). 1974.
-Ovum, 6/74. Uruguay.
-Strange Faeces #15, 1975. U.S.A.
- Wet Tip Reports (Co-author with Judith Bell).

- Vile, Vol 3 #1, 12/75. San Francisco, CA.

-"White House Cancer" (Author). 1976.
-"Thirteen Tragic Tales" (Author). 3/76.
-Hong Kong Standard (front page), 3/8/77.
-Vile, vol 3 #2,1977. San Francisco, CA.
-Time. 1977.
-Nitrous Oxide #2 (Editor). 11/77.
-File, vol 3 #4, 1977. Toronto, Canada.
-Virus, Winter 1977. Montreal. Canada.
-Sordide Sentimental. 12/77. Rouen, France.
-Widows and Orphans #5, Winter-Spring
77-78. Pub by Jim Jocoy.

- Widows and Orphans Calendar, 1978. Pub by

Jim Jocoy, Sunnyvale CA.

-A Salute To Jacqueline Kennedy, 1978.

-Industrial News. 6/78. Pub by Industrial
Records, london, England.

-Entropy-Intermedia. Vol 2 #1, 1978. San

Francisco, CA.

-Widows and Orphans #6 (with Tana Emmolo

& Jim Jocoy), 1978.

-Mr. Prolong, 1/79.

-Primary Sources #3, 1979. london, Eng.
-Industrial News (Special edition prepared for
Hayward Annual). london, England.

-Industrial News. 9/3/79. Pub by Industrial

Records, london, Eng.

-Blue Booklet. 1979.

-Slash. vol 3 #5, 1980. World Update (Intv
with Mark Pauline & intv with Factrix). los
Angeles, CA.

-Industrial News, 11/4/80.

Pub by Industrial Records,
london, England.

-Isolation Inteflectuefle #0,

1980. Rouen, France.

-Re/Search #2, 1981. San

Francisco, CA.

-Re/Search #3, 1981. San

Francisco, CA.

"I want to expreS$ my appreciation to
the following people. Without their support I would have nol been able to con-

tinue: Throbbing Gristle esp. Genesis

P-Orridge. Fsctrix. Tana Emmolo. Ric &.
Cheryl Soloway, Subterranean Records.

Sordide Sentimental. Many Quayzar.

Deviation Social. and Marte: Pauline.
"Basically I think the idea of putting out
this issue of and on Industrial Culture is

beating 8 dead horse. While all of the various people involved were doing their
initial work. they were paid very little
attention-just met with dishonest animosity. However, resistance does make one
stronger and keeps one on the right
track ....
"It i, really only after the fact that bandwegon jumpers have decided to hitch a
ride on our little virus. Well,if people think
it is for fun or entertainment, they are in
for a bad surprise ....
I'm not here to publicly educate people,
especially when they Ire too lazy to go out
and educate themselves or mike any
attempt to do 10. When all they want to do
is sit home and watch TV and play video
games, and elect MCond~rate actors for
president ....
I did this article mainly because of
Vale's persuasion and involvement and
for my own mercenary interests, in order
to continue work which stemsfrom rebel
lion. At this point in time I personalty con
sider the sum total of my work to equal
only failure. I am not interested in other
people's opinions on this subject, nor do I
need their approval for my continued
existence; time shall vindicate me."
-Monte Caazza


SOrdide Sentimental (literally sentimental sordidness) is more than a small avant-garde record
company-their personal creativity saturates everything they have released. Beginning in 1976 they premiered graphics by the subseque-ntly famous/
influential Bazooka group, issued the first records by
Throbbing Gristle and Joy Division, all the while
maintaining a perversely high standard of philosophic
content in their unusual, limited edition packages.
Subsequent records reflected an almost incongruous
variety of musical choices-from extremely primitive
rock to sophisticated synthesizer productions.
Each record was accompanied by a strikingly
designed folder, a warning, a thought-provoking text,
graphics, sometimes a color print-all enclosed in an
81f2xll" plastic pouch. To date the series cumulatively
represents a most individual achievement-destined
for appreciation by individuals ....
Disdaining Paris as needlessly bustling and vapid,
Jean-Pierre Turmel and Yves Von Bontee prefer the late
medieval splendor of Rouen, a town of 100 cathedrals,
several preserved alchemists' homes, and the L'Aitre
Saint-Maclou, a rectangular courtyard carved with a
vast frieze of macabre objects-hundreds of skulls,
bones and similarly sinister symbols commemorating
the Black Plague of 1348. It's difficult to fault their
decision-there are enough old bookstores, record
stores, cheese, wine and food shops to supply a
demanding connoisseur. Jean-Pierre is a gourmet cook
and wine expert-if anything, Sordide Sentimental
reflects the sensibility of a post-rock'n'roll
Huysmans ....
In this interview, Jean-Pierre and Yves reveal some
motives and insights to Andrea Juno and Vale ....
Preceding pages: Artwork and Photo by Sordide Sentimental.

It is difficult to think of history as progress.

Maybe it is, maybe it is not-who can decide?
R/S: Maybe some progress is made, in the sense that penicillin can save a lot of lives ... but then new viruses develop that
are resistant to penicillin. Syphilis may be gone but herpes is
)PT: We have new technology but man himself is
always the same-a sort of ape completely controlled
by something inside him he can't understand, something more animal.
YVES: But the man now on earth is not the same as
the one who was there 2000 years ago. There is an


interrelation between the technology created by man

and the man-through that you can have a kind of
)PT: Perhaps. I always say perhaps- no certitude!
YVES: Whether it's good or it's bad, it's an evolution.
You can't stop it.
)PT: We could also ask the question: who needs the
sense of history? Because our life is very short. So, do
you feel really human? Do you feel yourself part of
humanity? For myself, I feel completely outside. So in
that sense, a sense of history means nothing.
YVES: I don't know what "humanity" means.

.. :.


.," . . ~.

------------------JP1': I know-humanity means

the rest! I am a completely egocentric person.

R/S: That ought to be made a first condition of educationtraining to feel apart from humanity.
YVES: Everything people talk about is perhaps true
and perhaps wrong. You have to take in the world and
not just consider the words in themselves. When you
use words, you use them with "meaning" but also you
use them with your own experience, your own symbols, your complex imagination, dreams, everything.
People will receive that... but they also don't receive
that at all.
When I am writing, most of the time I try to stop in
the middle of a sentence, just to try to oblige people to
continue the sentence with their own imagination,
and to work with the meaning. I hate people only
wanting to receive, who don't want to give anything,
who don't want to participate. You stop, and that is all
When I write for myself (in my journal), I'm writing
in French and I stop writing in French and write in
German, and then I stop writing in German and put an
English word into a German sentence, and I mix it up.
I put my own experience into words and if it sounds
better in German, I do that.
R/S: It might be funny to compile a list ofhalf-sentences that
anyone could finish as soon as they read the first fewwords-a
lot of our communication could be reduced to those.
JP1': Yes. It's an interesting game to playwith a group
of people. They may be discussing one subject, and at
one moment everything seems to be okay. Suddenly
you ask them, "You talk about this [concept] - what
does it mean?" And one by one, what you see is that
each person has a different definition of the concept.
Finally, it seems that they understood each other, but
in fact it was complete illusion.
Often people use words as slogans, but they don't
really know the exact sense of the terms, the words.
For instance, if you ask people, Tell me, what is a
fascist? you will have one hundred definitions (or
more). And if you tell them, A fascist is one who wants
to destroy capitalism, they will say, Oh, you are crazy!
But it's true-that's found in texts-fascists wanted to
destroy capitalism. So, where is reality?
YVES: Yesterday I was in Germany and an SO-yearold man told me, "Yes, there is a great difference
between fascism which was Mussolini's, and Hitler's
which was National Socialist. Hitler's wasn't fascism."
JP1': In a way he was right, because "fascism" came
from the word fascio which is an Italian word. Always
the same problem: words are the basis of all illusions.
R/S: I think one of the big problems today, which ].G.
Ballard has illuminated, is that the myths that really matter,
that affect people the most powerfully, are not the ones held
up that we ordinarily think ofas myths. For example, the space
program, the car crash death, the great collective myth of the
coming nuclear destruction-one doesn't necessarily regard
these as myths.
JP1': I like very much Ballard-he really sees the
world like a forest of symbols, myths and so on. He
describes worlds which are mythological worlds. The
new gods are not very different from the gods of
antiquity-for instance, the movie stars, monsters,
everything like that.
RjS: He's brought precise medical and scientific terms into

the vocabulary-

JP1': I like the fact that behind the man you always

see the animal. And the difference is very thin.

I think a good question would be to ask: What is the
difference between man, and the new manR/S: If there can be oneJP1': Because we can't ask now what is the difference
between animal and human. Everybody is trying to
answer those questions, but there is no real answer.
R/S: Ancient Egyptians had an interesting model to explain
the diverse abilities humans display; each animal represented
a principle of nature, or neter, and humans embodied different neters-not necessarily just one, although usually one
JP1': Some humans are very intelligent with a little
brain, and some humans with big brains are complete
idiots. What is the conclusion? An elephant has a very
big brainYVES: But it doesn't have any cortex.
JP1': I like very much theories. Theory is a pleasure in
itself. I like theories not because they reflect the
truthR/S: Oh, theories-I thought you said fairies!
JP1': Most of the time theories are fairies! That's
excellent-you have a very good unconscious.
R/S: That's part of the big game-to gain more and more
access to the unconscious, where creativity comes out ofJP1': Yes.
YVES: I like theory too, because it's used to destroy
the meatJP1': -of reality, of the truth.
YVES: We use it in a simple way. We are always building lots of theories with which we can destroy reality,
to make a splash.
JP1': When somebody asked Epicurus a question, he
used to give 10 or more answers, saying to the person, Choose. It is astonishing to me that this simple
evidence was known in the past, thousands of years
ago, but it's not still understood by people. It's more
than a problem ofculture-the problem is they refuse.
Something which is very constant is imbecility, and
you can do nothing against that.
YVES: People don't want to find themselves.
R/S: Because people are taught to be lazy and to be satisfied
too easily?
JP1': Yes, and also, they are afraid of everything, by
the facts of life. If you tell them there are many
answers to one question, they are afraid-there is no
stability, they are walking on quicksand. Even the
ecologists who seem to be very intelligent, positive
and so on-flnally, what is their vision of the world?
It's a vision of an ecology which is completely fixed,
without any evolution. So it's crazy, it's not an ecology,
it's only conservatism. Use the right words!
And it seems that each time you are trying to open a
door, there are one thousand people who shut it. And
in fact they are very intelligent; all these people know
they can't destroy these new ideas, but they know that
the best way to attack the ideas themselves is to change
the orientation of the idea in a negative way, always.
The only conclusion is always to escape from the
It's always the same game of hide-and-seek from
them. One of the other conclusions we tlnd in Sordide




'. .'



.;:-.. ~. ~"'.::~ ,,#

Sentimental is that you can't really use logical argumentation, logical arguments. The only way to try to
change things is to attack on the very subliminal level,
the level that they can't understand If they understand, it's f"tnished!
For instance, the punk movement. First, most people reject that because they don't understand. Little by
little they understand, so it was not very dangerous.
They can take it and change it, because they knew it.
There is something interesting in the I Ching which
says if you want to convince your enemy, be your

I personally thinl< that theory is

the most important aspect of our
civilization-everything, every
moment in our life, is only theory.
People don't really live. they first
need a reason, an explanation, to
hate or to like. For most people, a
thing without theory does not
even exist.

enemy f"U'St. Be inside your enemy, inside his logic.

After, you can change him like you want. And it's the
same for any concept. And it's what the masses are
doing: f"U'St they reject-that's the good moment of
any revolution. It's the moment when they don't
understand But after, once they understand, it's
YVFS: They take what they want from it, change it,
and project back, feed it back, diluted.
]PT: I like very much the ideas of SPK about subliminal influences. To use very important words-you
choose a word and put it in place very carefully in a
special place in the text, so all the influence is on this
word, but people read it and notice nothing. But that
word is in their heads. You can do it also with images.
Finally, that is what we are trying to do more and
more. Often it works.
R/S: Is that your theory of music too?
YVFS: We have many theories of music.
]PT: I should want to play music; it's a question of
time and room.
YVFS: It would be interesting to only play lou
music- music for brain-damaged people. Most of
these brain-damaged people are put away from
society; people don't want to hear from them, or see
them; they think they are sick and dangerous.
R/S: There have been shows of paintings that have traveled
around-art of the insane, art brut But music of the
insane-that's hardly been publicized.
]PT: The question we could ask is, what do we mean
by music? Because for people music is f"U'St to go on
stage and play in front of a mass ofpeople. But it could
be something else. You could do, for instance, only
records. You could do, of course, only music for yourself without any records. There are different questions. If it is only music for myself-like I was saying, I

have a lot of things I would like to express. And I would

like to compose, but f"mally, for myself. The problem
of the stage is completely different, because you are
confronting, literally, the problem ofthe masses. They
are in front of you, and what will you do?
My position now is to use a new weapon: deception.
And it's also a new weapon that Genesis uses. I'm interested in the final results. The interest in deception is:
when people are deceived, suddenly they don't protect
themselves. Their defenses are droppedR/S: Because you distracted them and slipped in another
]PT: So, it's the ideal moment to send some disturbing concept in. It's a new way I'm trying to explore.
R/S: How can you use deception?
]PT: For instance, you are saying something which
seems not very extraordinary-people are awaiting
something brilliant, and you give them something
grey. They don't understand, and their reaction is to
think, Oh, they are really boring. But at the end you put
something short but really disturbing-an idea. This is
dangerous for them.
R/S: The confusion principle.
]PT: Look, for instance, at the people in front of
Throbbing Gristle. Little by little they are accustomed
to provocation, to aggressivity, things like that. At the
end, people are proud So it's finished! You have to do
something else. Most bands, what are they doing? They
are trying to do more and more, but it's failure. Apart
from the fact that most bands are boring now, finally,
they are not boring enough!
YVFS: Most of the time they are on a stage to promote
a record, nothing elseR/S: A most boring motive.
]PT: The problem is to give an interesting deception.
It's not easy, it's very difficult. The only way is to
develop the concept of evidences. There is a deception
in the audience when they say, It's evident! By that
they mean banal, obvious. But often most evident
things are not banal. On the contrary they are very
important, but it is these important things that people
reject. So maybe one way is to write again, say again, all
these evidences. For instance to say, There is no perfect theory. If you say that to people, they say, Yes, it's
R/S: While they're buying imperfect theories all the time in
the form of books and records!
]PT: People always expect you to do one thing; if you
do something else ....
YVFS: But it takes a lot of time and energy to do
something else]PT: Yes, there is the risk of saturation. Personally I
like very much playing this game of hide-and-seek. It's
very fun.
R/S: What do you think of the theory that there's a sort ofbell
curve to almost every creative project-everything has its
beginning, ascendancy, peak and decline? That you can't keep
doing anything very long?
]PT: That's true. Most people are very afraid of
decline; they are afraid to be without a new fashion. If
they don't have a new fashion, it's horrible-life stops
suddenly. For us, it's not important. There is no new
movement-it's not important; we continue.
YVFS: We have enough energy to do something for


ourselves. Most people need food-either music food

or image food or lV food- they just want to be fed! But
there is no food anymore. What can they do? Go to
church and pray?
JPT: Take the rock critics in the newspapers. When
there is a new very clear movement like the punk
movement, it is fantastic for them because they have
no anxiety, it's perfect. Life has a sense-there is a
fashion. Suddenly the punk movement goes down.
YVES: What can they say? What can they do?
JPI': They are completely obsessed with what is new
now. What is it, and where is it? And the anxiety is so
strong that they create, themselves, anything.
R/S: New Romanticism this month, Rap Music nextJPI': Anything only for one week. Like a junkie, ifyou
have not your normal drug, you take anything. Most
people, they are junkies. And from time to time they
don't have their drug, so they take anything.
We used to accuse the record companies of doing
uninteresting fashions. But everybody is accomplices- the audience, the record company, the
rock critics, all have the same interest-they need a
new fashion, all ofthem. This is the major obsession of
the rock market: what will be the future? Horrible ....
YVES: And they always say how nice the past was.
JPI': The rock movement is interesting because it's a
micro-society. It's easier to analyze, but in fact it's the
same. About the stage, the fact to play on stage- I think
that's very important, because there is a religious
dimension to the fact of going on stage. God is dead,
but we still need a religion, and rock is a religion. It
needs its martyrsR/S: And rituals. When you say we need a religion, do you
think there are more creative substitutes for rock as a religion?
JPI': What is the need of any religion? To communicate with the gods. What are the gods? The gods are
inside us. It's always the same problem.
When the human speaks, he often says the contrary
of reality. Often. So when he speaks about the heaven,
in fact he is speaking about inside. I can say the contrary of the same sentence I said just a few minutes
ago, and suddenly it seems true-it's often like that.
It's often interesting to play this joke: you take any
aff"trmation, and completely say the opposite. Often
you are very surprised by the result-often it seems
more appropriate. This is not far from the Zen system
of absurd communication. Somebody says a word,
another person says something completely different,
and suddenly something springs into viewR/S: A psychic leap.
YVES: We are so conditioned to avoid the real problems that often it's very simple-if you take the contrary you find what is true.
JPI': Yes, it's alchemical. I think it's the Zohar which
said what is up-side is like what is down-side.
R/S: "As above, so below"-by the legendary Hermes Trismegistus. How do you think people can evolve faster?
JPI': I'm just trying to make evolve a very small
number of persons, no more. Because I think for the
rest it's finished! If I try I shall destroy myself, it's too
much. Some people say that Sordide Sentimental is
elitist. Yes, in a way it's elitist, because we are not
trying to give a solution to everybody.
YVES: We just want to be ourselves.

We are sending some words here and there, and

from time to time there is a good reply. That's alL And I
think it's fantastic. For the rest-give me a reason to do
something for these people. What are they doing for
me-nothing but trying to make me a slave.
R/S: But once in a while you meet someone like my friend
who's very young, 15 andJPI': Very young? You need to start much earlier-the
most important years are the first 3 years! The difference between the old and the young is that the young
have more energy. That's the only difference- the old
ones are tired, so they stop to agitate. The young ones
are not doing anything, they are just agitated, so they
follow the first one who makes movement in pure
imitation-no real expression.
We have a very interesting man in France called
Henri Laborit (author of Decoding the Human Message, about biochemical processes of the brain). He
helped the filmmaker Alain Resnais with the film Mon
Oncle d'Amerique. The writer's a biologist who found
an anti-anxiety drug, among other things. One time I
saw an interviewwith him on lV. They projected some
films about new youth, young people who are "doing
things," and the man who did the interviewasked him:
''They're more interesting, aren't they?" Suddenly
Laborit laughed: "Oh-they're completely idiots, like
the others!" Little by little he destroyed completely
everything the young people were doing-that they
were only imitators doing bullshit, and so on. It was



, >- ;


Monte Cazazza Record Package Art (ptg on glass): Mark Beyer

~:.' \ l


:.. ~~::~.>~~'

:.:' ..



completely depressing for the intemewer, but for me

it was really exciting!
There was another intemew in Cannes in which
Laborit explained everything about Resnais' film. At
the end, his conclusion was again to smlle and say,
"Anyway, that film will have absolutely no consequence about the evolution of humanity."
You can say to people what are the problems. But
nothing works. I'm not sure-maybe the solution is
subliminal influences. Maybe it's the only way-to
work with the symbols.
R/S: The advertisers spend millions and seem to think it
works-why not turn it toward a more ideological
JPI': The last election in France 2 years ago was proof
of the strength of subliminal influence. In fact the
elections were completely absurd; people don't vote
for anything reasonable, they vote for a dream. The
person who wins is the person who gives the strongest
dream. But you need to be intelligent-if you tell
them, "I will give you twice as much money," they will
go, "Oh .... " You have to be more subtle, for instance:
"We give you an image of a France that is very quiet.
This is our dream: a quiet, peaceful France." And it

works. The late President gave them numbers; technical, logical things, and people looking at the 1V said:
"Oh, it's boring." (He lost.)
In fact, the only work for a politician is to find new
dreams. In politics, like everywhere, there is a fasWon.
From time to time the fasWon is to give technological
information. And after, it will be to give a dream. It's
only a question of fashion.
We have been very influenced by the Internationale
Situationniste. We try to continue in this vein.
R/S: When you were talking about deception-that seemed
to be originated in practice by the situationisrs. In San Francisco, 1973, they plastered the city with official-looking posters
with the mayor's seal and phone number, entitled DID YOU
EVER FEEL liKE STFALING EVERYlliING? and offering a free
"I Like To Shop" button and a free $50 coupon toward the
purchase of anything if you carne down to the mayor's office.
The mayor's phone was jammed by calls.
JPI': The situationists saw we are living in a society of
consumers. Consuming is more than consuming
objects; we are also consuming more abstract things,
and fasWon is one of the most important.
R/S: Fashionable attitudes, likes and dislikesJPI': We could say also that we are living in a world of
theory. People need theory for anything-a theory for
the weekend, a theory for what to drink, what to wear,
what to eat. Suddenly you see everybody in the street
jogging-I think that will change as they begin to have
some problem with their legs, heart, and so on. Everything is like that.
I have no particular theory about food, except we
need good food without many additives. But what to
eat- I have no theory. I am trying to listen to my own
body. Suddenly if you like to eat something you have
not eaten for many years-like one month ago I had
the desire to put vinegarwith potatoes; suddenly it was
very attractive to me. A few months before it was with a
very special cheese, gruyere, wWch I don't like very
much-it seems tasteless. The problem, again, is to
fight conditioning.
The human is very flexible; he can eat nearly everything. Of course, some things are more or less
R/S: Diet for an Industrial CultureJPI': It's not an industrial culture, it's an industrial
R/s: That's right, you work in industry as a worker in a gas
JPI': Many years, for Shell Oil. Now I'm behind a desk,
with buttons, alarms, and so on-we are living in a
science-fiction novel! In my life, my industrial life is
not far from a certain asceticism, because physically
it's very hard for the nervous system. And you can
compare it with the asceticism of the saints who for
instance stopped eating, stopped drinking, stopped
sleeping, to try to find a very special level of
consciousness-or unconsciousness. That's the
problem-what is the definition of this very special
level? Is it still consciousness, or unconsciousness? We
are between them, like a robber ....
When you are very tired, suddenly images come
from the inside to your conscious spontaneously. And
I notice that after holidays, I was completely unable
& incapable to write the texts-I needed to go back to




can't avoid the subjective, but they pretend to be objective. And it's untrue. So, confronted with this problem,
we decided to be completely subjective.
YVES: Anytime you use words, you are subjective.
You use words in your own way; you can't be objective.
JPT: We don't give people direct information. For
instance, we don't say "they began there" ... "at that
moment" .... and so on. Often we talk about something else. And finally, everything goes to the same
point, because things are not separated.
R/S: What is the theory of transparency?
JPT: Why that's transparent!
YVES: To say what you want to say, what you mean
exactly. For example, we could say we are doing Sordide Sentimental to bring people more information, to
show off more art. In fact it's not true-we say it's for
ourselves. Most people don't say that. We do that for
JPT: For instance, transparency for Throbbing Gristle
is to say, We are also people who drink tea. Because
that's not obvious for most people.
But it's something else, the theory of transparency.
In my mind, it's also a way to control people.
YVES: You say what you want to do so people know
what you want to do.
JPT: For two reasons. We notice that for instance you
can say to somebody, I am a crook. Finally you do it,
and the fact that you tell him that you are a crook
doesn't stop anything. But another consequence ofthe
theory of transparency is that we pretend to say the
truth. But what is truth? There is no truth. So finally, we
are obliged to say that we are still trying to control
people. So perhaps the ultimate consequence is that
there is nothing transparent!
I said to Genesis: "You have been too much influenced by this theory." Because he doesn't notice all
the consequences of the theory. Yes, in appearance
he seems to be transparent; for instance, in his problem with Cosey he was very "transparent"; he said
things are like that, and like that But was it really the

In this world we make everything

a sign: the network of
correspondences is infinite and it's
that which feeds the major illusion
of the real and its definitions,
truth? We can't be sure. The only true thing behind
what he was saying was that he wanted to control
Cosey again. That was the only sure thing. So I talked
to him: "Stop to use this theory." That was last year.
But it's also very interesting to use as a joke to play.
It's good training for yourself, but you need to be very
careful, because the illusion is so easy.
R/s: You can take the theory of transparency to a point of
self-justifying godhood, where you think you're so pure, so
transparent, that you can't even recognize your own most
devious power motives.
JPT: You said the word, pure. There is in Genesis,
behind the fact he pretends to be the devil, the fact that





the factory and be very tired. So I can say that for me,
industry is something very close to mysticism!
The separation between creative life and the other is
not so clear. It was clear at the beginning-my reasons
were rational: I prefer to separate my creative life from
my job only for the money. But after a few years, I
noticed it was not separated. I noticed this industrial
life was necessary for my production. So now I can't
stop, because I have the feeling that if I stop, my ideas
will stop.
R/S: Didn't you refuse the offer ofbeing fully paid for editing
a science-fiction magazine?
JPT: My reason was: it would be necessary for me to
meet persons I don't really need to meet. Or want It's
not a need and it's not a desire, so- I think it's horrible,
and very limiting for yourself. And very destructiveyou oblige yourself to do something you don't want. I
think that's the worst alienation, because you have still
the illusion of doing something you like!
If you are going to the factory, you know that's something painful. You are not going to the factory telling
yourself you are doing something fantastic. You know
exactly what you are doing-you know it's for the
money. It's a very evident form of prostitution, but
very clear. Finally, I want to be clear with myself, I'm
trying to be clear. What I saw in the professional fields
(for instance science fiction, rock magazines, and so
on) are some people who finally were not very happy
to be doing what they were doing. And at the same
time they were proclaiming they were doing what they
wanted. I say they are lying! They can lie to other
persons, but the worst thing is they lie to themselves.
R/S: Their vision is clouded by notions of glamor-they
think they're doing their creative work, writing and getting
paid as well. Of course, they never question the content of
what they write.
}Pf: There is also the specific fact of their own vision
of what is a critic-a critic of science fiction ora critic
of rock. For them, finally, it's a failure. Because most of
them wanted to be a science-fiction writer or a musician in a band. So in their mind, to write a text about
somebody else is horrible.
In fact, it's very interesting- to write articles is a real
way of expression, like doing a novel. For instance,
when Huysmans wrote some critical articles about art,
he was really creative in his texts-not a simple critic
with a small c, but text. It was something important, it
must be important. But what we see is-all these critics
are only doing paraphraseYVES: ''The slide guitar is good, and the synthesizer
works okay, and the first song has this kind of tempo
and .... "
JPT: That's all, it's bullshit.
YVES: No new information.
JPT: The best critics give information; the others are
only trying to-I don't know. I think the only way is to
use what you critique as a stepping-stone for yourself
to go elsewhere. You need to do more, not only describe. Most critics are only vampires-they take but
do not give.
YVES: Quick writingR/S: Like fast food. They stay away from real ideas.
JPT: Where is the information? You can't give a definition ofinformation- information aboutwhat? They






he wants to be pure. That's why I talked with him about

the concept of the scapegoat, because he wants to be
the innocent victim; he wants to be pure.
R/S: When reading books about Jonestown, I noticed how
often Jim Jones would predict repression was going to fall
upon the church-how he would even have members fire
guns outside the meetings and then announce, "They're here;
they're going to kill us all now! But I can save us!" I'm sure
you've read about all those control tricks.
]Pf: There are many aspects to this theory. For
instance, if you pretend to be something which you
are not-if you pretend to be a "rocker" yet you come
from a very bourgeois society-if you tell people you
come from a high society it's okay. Not as a provocation, very simply. Suddenly you are transparent; people will not notice you. But people always notice
people who don't acceptwhat they are. So this is a good
aspect of the theory; the conclusion is you need to
know exactly what it is you are trying to know. Of
course, that's not completely possible, but ....
Genesis accepted being a different person. He used
part of my letter in a magazine [Vox #12]:
"An individual has many personalities or characters at

the same time or alternatively (recent cognitive brain

theory supports this). Most people little by little eliminate the personalities considered to be dangerous by
their peer group or societal unit and finally keep only
one: the social personality ... one dimensional, 'flat'
people. But other people, called paradoxica1ly 'individuals,' are always trying to develop all their personalities, even if there's an internal conflict between them.
So we can clearly see that the individualist person
10gica1ly must use 'we' to name himself whilst the
person who belongs to the masses must use the 'I'. The
first is multi-dimensional, the second is unidimensional."

I use a sort of paradox-it's a joke with words.

The conclusion ofGenesis: "One ofthe Temple functions is to encourage and support the development of
multi-dimensional individuals. Hence our use of the
'we' in our texts. Our enemies are flat."
R/S: Enemi~-hardly anyone knows they exist!
]Pf: Yes. I am obsessed by what is the nature of this
limit of separation between the conscious and the
unconscious. Because we have not a precise idea. How
can you imagine this limit-is it a wall, a no man's
R/S: I visualize it as a chain-link fence; a net ofrepressions]Pf: Yes; I am trying to nnd a symbol for this.
R/S: Sometime there are big holes in the net; mostly there
are small holes.
]Pf: Is it like the surface of the separation between
air and water, or is it something like glass? And why at
some moments does this limit seem to be permanent?
I'm obsessed by this problem; for me the door is the
symbol of passage from the conscious to the unconscious. How to open the door? Maybe with drugs, maybe
with fatigue. The true thing is that the separation is not
so absolute.
R/S: You can get a glimpse ofa vision or an idea at the oddest
time-walking down the street, some Hale detail can trigger it.
You get an idea and then you catch that idea and work on it.
]Pf: That's why the situationists said it was good to
walk down the street. They said it was the f"trst political
thing to do ....

Yves von Bontee in J-P Turmel's living room. (Photo: Andrea Juno)


"The first difficulty that man encounters ... is to look things straight
Among the things which plague the "suffering" human species. it
seems to us that his attitude towards language is one of the most
heretic: while he seems to continue to pose himself certain questions
on his existential belief or beliefs. he accepts as an axiom the innate
and immovable quality of this language which he considers to be
unique. and even as a tool. or rather a semblance of a tool of communication. Not that we argue about its necessity in the expression of
individuality. of intercommunication. or the manipulation of abstractions and cultural transmission. but rather the restriction of its use toa
farce of communication embedded in the iron-clad rites of "good"
thinking. of egalitarianism. of pseudo-civism. of monotheism. making
it a rigid structure. the servant of some pretense of a unique "truth."
The structure of this language. too often considered to be selfevident. reflects that of the world as it is-or was perceived by those
who have developed it; projected into the world. it is unavoidably
retroactive. although unconscious or voluntarily hidden. It is responsible for that monolithic system of double-values which supports. and
imprisons words which are then fixed in a binary system. thus excluding them from any further influence. It ends up in the monopoly ofthat
pretense of a unique "truth." notably upheld by monotheistic religions
which are responsible for a real cultural. intellectual. and spiritual
imperialism; furthermore it creates a childish mentality through identification. normalization and sense of security with it ... and finally ends
up by restricting our perceptions.
The absence of any analysis concerning the mechanisms which
finish in the elaboration of the language partly explains this blind belief
in the word; it is enough to note the concurrent phenomena in the
structuralization of the word to show its necessary subjectivity. In
fact. whatever may be the element or primary event which wishes to
be ex-pressed (note the idea of pressure) is situated at infinitely varied
levels of "reality": be it external or internal. microscopic or macroscopic ... this event is first of all perceived. then transformed into a secondary message which is transported to the nerve centers which
integrate it before the final stage occurs: the production of vocalization. The intervention of perception. bringing into play the various
senses which are hence difficult to isolate with any rigor. that of the
brain which in the same way works on the primary event. giving it color
according to its feelings. passions. anguish and education ...
up until the eventual metamorphosis. which is dependent on the
individual. the unique. in whom intervenes a certain determinism.
partly influenced by education; a genetic. cultural. socioeconomic
determinism which furthermore undergoes an evolution in time.
On the basis of this evidence. any belief in a unique. timeless. objective language. supporting a state of double values. is precarious. It thus
becomes necessary to beware words. to permanently-but
"intelligently" -unlearn Education. to protect the individual by a
selective isolation. based on a perpetual re-creation; to have a progressive graduation (thus working against the knife of the double-value
system). to be un-safe. to hold a multitude of truths (thus working
against The One Truth) with a temporal projection which is no longer
linear. having an evolution towards the infinite. but one which is in
spiral form.
"We. Sordide Sentimental. are projecting through the medium of
our publications. our vision. our doubts and incertitudes. our internal
and external conflicts. our loves and our hates ... we manipulate. in
order to justify our expectations and pre-suppositions. our "realities."
-Yves von Bontee (tr by Malcolm Duff)
Hamburg-Rouen. Sept-Oct 1982







(BOOK). 62p book, out of print.
Girls/Five Knuckle Shuffle. 1977. Out of print.
JOY DIVISION: Atmosphere/Dead Souls.
Out of print.
BILLY SYNTH: Hartzdale Drive Destruction/
ISOLATION INTELLECTUELLE No. O. collages. Out of print.
Production: Women In The Moon. For Danny
BIZARROS: The Cube/Underground.
TUXEDO MOON: Une Nuit Au Fond De La
ISOLATION INTELLECTUELLE No 2. Blameless Act: Ado (Humain Trop Humain) Untermenschen/Blameless Act.
MONTE CAZAZZA: Stairway To Hell/Sex Is
No Emergency.
(all limited edition packages 40 French
Francs from: Sordide Sentimental. B.P. 534,
76005 Rouen Cedex, France. Do not inquire
about out-of-print packages.)

All Records by:

The Seeds
Tom Rapp & Pearls Before Swine
The Third Ear Band (UK)
Silver Apples
Mayo Thompson & Red Krayola
Mandrake Memorial
Neu (Germany)
Gene Vincent
The Trashmen
13th Floor Elevator
Comus (UK)
Beacon Street Union
Twice as Much (UK)
The Troggs
Them (UK)
Velvet Underground
Pink Floyd with Syd Barrett
Captain Beefheart
Egg (UK)
Chocolate Watch Band
The Head Shop

Some Call It Loving/John B Harris
The Shout/Jerzy Skolimowski
Heart of GlasslWerner Herzog
Apocalypse Now/Coppola
Night of the Hunter/Chas Laughton
Eraserhead/David Lynch
Glissement Progressif du Plaisir/
Alain Robbe-Grillet
Dehors, Dedans/ Alain Fleisher
Pandora/Albert Lewin
A Bigger Splash/Jack Hazan
Pirates and Warriors/Kung Hu
A Touch of Zen
La Cri du Sorcerier
Teenage Sex
Femme ou Demon/Jonas Middleton
Shogun Assassin/Kenji Misumi & R Houston
Solaris/ Andrei Tarkovsky
The Great Gatsby/Jack Clayton
Dernier Ie Porte Verte
Naked Prey/Cornel Wilde
The Mother & the Whore/Jean Eustache
Celine & Julie Go Boating/J Rivette
Children of Paradise/Marcel Carne
Je T'aime, moi non plus/Serge Gainsbourg
All films/Kenneth Anger


Bunny & The Lakers (Canada)
Raw War 45 (early Diodes, Canada)
Systematics (Australia)
The Maker of the Dead Travels Fast
EST (Australia)
Son of Sam/Chain Gang
TC Matic (Belgium)
Coitus Int (Netherlands)
Aroma Plus (Berlin)
Debris/Static Disposal (USA)
Savage Republic (USA)
Home Comfort/Mark Glynne & Bart Zwier
Circle X Internationale (USA)
Husker Du (USA)
Ballet Mecanique (Denmark)

(Huge Science Fiction Collection)
LiI-Bas/J K Huysmans
Against Nature/J K Huysmans
Ste Lydwine de Schiedam/J K Huysmans
Roberte Ce Soir/Pierre Klossowski
Le Souffleur/Pierre Klossowski
Sade Mon Prochain/Pierre Klossowski
Short Stories/Giovanni Papini
The Torture Garden/Octave Mirbeau
The Soft Machine/William S Burroughs
Ubik/Philip K Dick
3 Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch/P K Dick
La Jongleuse/Rachilde
Diary of a Seducer/Kierkegaard
Precis de Decomposition/Cioran
The Ego and His Own/Max Stirner
Mass Psychology of Fascism/Wilhelm Reich
The Crystal World/JG Ballard
Night Squad/David Goodis
City of the Dead/Herberth Lieberman
Story of the Eye/Georges Bataille
L'eroticism/Georges Bataille
Hollywood Babylon/Kenneth Anger
Kitsch/Gillo Dorfles et al
Encyclopedia of Symbolisme
Panorama of Science Fiction
History of Science Fiction
History of Nazi Cinema
Ecran Demonaique
Las Tatouistes
Pictorial History of Sex in the Movies
Pictorial History of Strip-tease
Histoire de Science Fiction Moderne/Sadoul
100 Years of Science Fiction Illustration
Hier L'an 2000/Jacques Sadoul
Monstres et Vampires
La Sexualite
L'homme et ses idoles
Mummies of Guanajuato
Fantastic Engravings of Wendell Dieterle
Histoire de L'lnsolite
Amour, Erotisme et Cinema/Ado Kyrou
La Dossier Hitler
Hitler et Ses Femmes
L'enfer Nazi
Hans Bellmer
Pour Tuer les Temps
La Musee des Supplices
La Musee des Vampyres
La Musee de la Bestialite
Le Musee du Fetichisme
L'art de Dessin Anime
Obliques/de Sade
Obliques/Bell mer
Masochisme au Cinema
Sex a L'Ecran
Las Mathematiques
Juliette/de Sade






~4j::;:~,?:;~::~:.~-/~?~:'~~~~~:J;.~.)3:f.:~.~,. _

Above photo: Andrew Hickinbotham. Previous pages: artwork courtesy SPK; photo l to R: SPK member. Mark Pauline. Matt Heckert. SPK member. by Vale.
All artwork throughout: courtesy SPK.

name SPK derives frnm a gronp of mental

patients in West Germany who, inspired by the BaaderMeinhof, set up their own terrorist unit with a slogan
Kill Kill Kill For Inner Peace AndMental Health. This
group, the Socialist Patients Kollektiv, blew themselves up while trying to make bombs in their mental
Since 1978, SPK has been the nom-en-hommage of
an Australian entity revolving around one person now
living in London. The "group" has released 2 LPs, 6
singles, 2 pamphlets, cassettes and avideocassette, and
has made several tours of Europe and America. Their
graphics are graphic-the front cover of the Industrial Records 45 was a photograph of a shish-kebabed
male organ with the title Meat Processing Section by
Surgical Penis Klinik. It was not generally displayed in

record stores.
In San Francisco they distinguished themselves by
eating brains from a sheep's head (1981), and by using
a live flamethrower onstage (1982), inadvertently setting a member of the audience on fire. In concert, their
relentless sonic assaults are complemented by vivid (as
in blood red) color slides, video and film projections.
Definitely sensational, but memorable.
In the near future SPK plans to release psychoprobes into the soundtrack medium, troublesome
videos, as well as more research reports on the proliferating epidemiology of mental and emotional disturbances. What follows is an interview with Graeme
Revell, plus Dominic Guerin, James Pinker and Karel
van Bergen, an aggregate for SPK's 1982 U.S.
tour ....

< :"



;,:.~ .. :





:',- ,~~.

~ >~. .



,'. ~ . .

testing procedures, all kinds of procedures which are
not at all different from rites. And in several years'
"The Russians were reported to have
time they wiU be looked upon as bizarre rites, simply
because of the techniques involved. We're just trying
used succinyl chlorine on Israeli
to put ourselves ahead, say 5 or 10 years depending on
prisoners in Syria. 1973. The victim
the acceleration-of-history factor, so we can look at
. feels himself dying for lack of oxygen.
them, thinking, My God, how stupid .... Yet this prealthough the effect is transitory. but
tends to be the state of the art; this is what humanity
there is then the threat of a
has achieved. We look back on old medical procedures
now and we think bleeding, and the putting of typhus
repeat experience.
victims in hot baths-the old Tchaikovsky stoveR/S: What's that?
R/S: Can you explain why in your work you present images SPK: They used to throw TH victims into boiling hot
from forensic pathology, venereal disease and hardcore sex? water and if they survived, it might get rid of the TH.
SPK: I'm not so interested in sex images. Hardcore
They did that to Tchaikovsky's mother when he was
porn usually seems to follow certain obvious lines.
very young, and that's why he deliberately drank
Like there's always some kind of power relationship
infected water at one stage of his life and more or less
going on, even in sexual perversion-especially so
committed suicide (and they threw him into the bath
here, because it's heightened Probably the a la mode
as well). We're trying to exhibit that kind of thing and
variant of the moment is SM-I guess that's been a la
show how close to magic it is. In a lot ofways we're not
mode since the 1700s ...
trying to say it's ridiculous, we're just trying to quesR/S: Now some major publisher is trying to launch a middletion the idea of truth associated with it, and isolate its
class S&M magazinemechanisms, its obsession with empirical verification
SPK: That's just a kind of mirror of an almost archaic
of everything-that nothing can be true unless you
society-porn is like a spectacle state society in microcan see it to be true. Because this acts to the detriment
cosm, and that's why I don't find it very interesting,
of the imaginativefaculties which could come up with
really. To come back to Freud, even though I don't
something in a surrealist sense (or whatever sense
agree much with all that Freud says, death is a great you like), but because it's only art, it's never accorded
deal more powerful than sex, or at least as powerful.
the value of other "truth" like sciences.
And there's a real fascination with images ofyourself
People think: Oh yes, that's interesting, but we
as dead, or images of others as dead Today, even,
would never actually form any belief in an art. But I
when I was shooting guns with Mark Pauline I was
think great art is the equivalent of science-you can
quite terrified ofwhat they can actually do: you're just
believe in it equally as much as you can in science. It's
holding this little lump of metal in your hand, and
very important to believe in the power of the imaginahaving seen forensic photos and things like that, you
tion, and not just let the rationalistic function, the
can all of a sudden imagine just one tiny slip-up in half logical side of the brain, dominate.
R/S: Don't you think the roots of this comes from a convera second and some guys got a fucking red hole out the
back and he's dead, you know. Somebody-it could
gence ofscientific research and art? Ifyou're reading Maldoror
which was written over a hundred years ago, it's obvious that
even be a friend. That kind of image is really basic
dream material, I think. And to actually see it, espeLautreamont had completed a certain amount of scientific
study, in biology at least, before he elaborated
cially in a fairly clinical sense, not in one of these
B-grade movies' violence-for-the-hell-of-it sense, is
imaginatively ...
very striking. It is to me, anyway.
SPK: All the way through 20th century art that's been
Plus a lot of what we're doing is dirt, is filth, and we
very important. Our whole project is to independently
live in a society that pretends to be exceptionally \ get our sound production to a kind of a research stage
clean. It cleans up everything, it paints facades and I where we can be totally precise about everything we
makes things shiny and bright. I think the unifying
do-do everything with a laboratory perspective. The
same as Mark Pauline was talking about today: he says
theme is that we are very conscious that whenever
there's a winner in a clean society, there's a filthy loser
he's only just getting to the stage where he can almost
as well But that tends to be just shoved away either in
challenge military-technological development using
layman's technology-show that they're not the only
a back ward or a jail or a back street or a dirty little
squatter, whatever you call it here.
ones that can do it. Obviously he can't get to nuclear
We have got this childish, if you like, fascination
technology, but he can build a helicopter, for examwith the genre-it may not be childish but I will
ple; he can build his own laser. And it's just to dealways admit that I am fascinated at looking at it, for
institutionalize the process of science, and to link it
probably not very noble motives. A reasoning behind
with art. I just hope the process can continue without
that fascination may be that we feel as though we are
requiring enormous sums of money.
hitting at the soft underbelly of society... at an area
R/S: Back to the problem of using medical images-some
where there's a great deal ofvulnerability. And people
people think you're just trying to raise people's threshold of
shockabilityoften criticize us for being negative, but it's just a focus
of attention.
SPK: That's really just a function of novelty ... a
There's another reason behind our medical interstrangeness index. We Imd that somebodywho's been
ests specifically, and that is the pretentiousness of exposed to those sort of images for a few months
science. There are some things which science does:
doesn't really get shocked by anything at all. And none



of that affects me like one particular guy in the mental

are an attempt to give an impression of a different
hospital I used to have to wake up every morning. He
world order. And we were being critical, but we were
had gangrene all through his body. He couldn't speak,
also trying to be positive in the sense oftrying to put in
and he had a leg and an arm on one side and nothing
a lot of energy, because one of the things we were
on the other side. He used to have pressure sores all
criticizing was apathy. And, we were giving impresover him because he sat all the time in a wheelchair,
sions of different landscapes.
and he'd shit and piss himself in bed every night. So
Also, being positive is not just our problem-it's the
every day I'd pull back the covers and there'd be this
listener's as well. And we can put in a lot of energy, we
pile of feces-a foul smell at 6 in the morning. I had to
can create our landscape, but if they can't see any
pick him up and get all this shit over my arms and
differentiation, if they just nnd that whole thing antichest-there was no other way to do it-and take him
music (which we don't think we are). then I guess
down to his bath and desperately try and-can you
we've failed to a certain extent. But then I think they've
imagine how difficult it is to put somebody in a bath
failed as well to understand what we're doing.
when they haven't got anything on one side of their
I think our visuals reflect a bizarre world view... a
body to hold them with? So each time he'd tend to twist --sense of beauty in the bizan:e....Were not totally stoic,
and fall and go in headfirst. And if he heard a female
s w 0 forbid anyone to have an idea of
voice he'd scream at the top of his lungs.
beauty, but what we do reject is any aesthetic idea""'"
R/S: He didn't want any women to see him in that statewhich is dictated to us either by a convention, or a
SPK: That's right. That was the ultimate for mesocial more or anything like that-most of that's just
there's nothing that's ever remotely bothered me
Tinsel Town stuff, or overly stylized ... it's just all
watered down-it doesn't bear atry relationship to any
real unconscious processes. That's why in a way we
don't really tamper with any of the images, we don't
bring that kind of conscious learned art into it. We do
do collages. but more recently we haven't beenreality seems to be sufficient. And I think there's a
beauty in everything-me personally, I'm trying to
surround myself with a kind of a world I would like to
live in (even though I couldn't live in it). A Fellini or
Jodorowsky landscape or something rather more
scure, inhabited by freaks-just so everythingwasn't so
fucking normalized all the time!
R/S: How do you relate your work to Dada?
SPK: I think that in all great movements there is an
immense process of ideas very early; they get watered
down in such a hurry, and don't get developed either.
What happens is: the ideas get swamped in the products. The thing that annoyed me about Dada was that
even though they were attacking the bourgeoisie, they
were entrenched-doing it with a kind of flippant
looseness. It wasn't precise enough. I'd like to show
how a line can be developed from then to now, probably visually more than any other way. Man Ray's photographic work is just brilliantR/S: As well as the result of accidentSPK: The solarization was completely accidental.
R/S: But it was his recognition of its potential that mattered,
not so much the accident.
SPK: So-there's a great deal still to be done, especiallywith f't1m and video. That's what we really want to
work on.
R/S: Another accusation made is-you're just engaged in
R/S: There's still so much potential, especially in film col
criticizing society, but you have no positive suggestions, or
lage, moving collage. Max Ernst took the collage to an
vision to offer.
advanced development, yet he never used modern photoSPK: I think that's shortsighted to a very large extent.
graphs, or modern scientific photographs.
When we tlrst started playing, I can't really think of
SPK: I've always been very conscious that the most
many other bands who attempted to put out fairly
important thing about collage or Cut-ups is what
uninterpretable noise walls like we do-probably only
you're cutting up. There is such an immense amount of
TG. So we were characterized as beingjust like TG. We
material still to be cut up. After this bloody obsession
thought we didn't sound very much like them at all; in
with structuralism that we've had to go through in the
fact we desperately tried not to sound like them.
60s and early 70s, f'tnally people are deciding that
Now, what happens when people first come across
we've got to get content back into the thing, somehow.
this sort of thing is: they can't differentiate between
And, most important, our work will be centered
products like that, or between ideas. I think our sounds
around the idea of an inorganic unconscious. I really


enjoyed that short story by J.G. BaYard where he rewrote the horoscope, saying, "We've got to get rid of
these Chaldean farmyard animals." That's a really
important realization: that the modern unconscious
must be different from the blood-shit-piss-organicwomb-phobias Freudian-associated neurotic gamut
unconscious of yesterday. We've still got a large
organic hangover.
But, say ifyou were writing a prelude to a description
of the insanity of a future society, you can easily
imagine what all the psychos of tomorrow will have
running around in their brains. You've got a lot nowradars controlling them, radioactivity, brainwaves
being read, stuff like that, that hasn't really been developed yet! There's an immense scope there for future
collage ideas, that also ties together dreams, the
unconscious, madness. (But everyone's mad in a
So, I hope we can work towards a kind offormalizing
the pluralistic possibilities; to open up the space for a
much wider range of unconscious delusions and artistic/creative inter-possibilities ....
Something you t""tnd all the way through philosophy
is a basic idea of primum moveos: there is something
in man that causes him to try to transcend himself.
One of the big questions in philosophy seems to be
why man alone seems to be like this. So, when you
encounter the idea of man as, say, the desiring

Hypnotism, brain implants, drugs,

ultrasound etc do exist, but really
thinl< that control as direct
physical imposition is nothing
compared to soft consent
problem. Fact is, 99% of the
population don't need to
be controlled ....
machines in Deleuze, I think that was limiting the
idea to one kind of description. I didn't think that
desire need be couched in terms of machine imagery.
Then again Duchamp had quite a machine idea; he
designed senseless machines, bachelor machines. A
sad sardonicism in that.
R/s, Which of your aims do you feel is most difficult?
SPK: Something that I would personally like to
achieve is the ability not to be able to discriminate
between quantities of beauty. For example, making
love with what appears to be a very beautiful woman
and making love with a pinhead or mongoloid: questioning the differentiation in the sense ofbeing able to
overcome it. There might be an erotic fascination for
making love with a "freak." but I think there's always
that mental discrimination. I like to question every
idea of beauty, but I think that seems to be one that's
almost impossible to get around. Fetus Prodm:tions
was showing pictures of deformed children and questioning the idea of Miss Universe, but as far as their
own personal experience went, they never did anything to prove they believed their theories. And I think
it's important to show how you can live in the idea.

R/S, The world's still ruled by the idea of eugenicsSPK: Even though it changes subtly. Over a very short
period of time (about 10 years), the model of a female
body changes. Twenties skinny, Thirties quite plump,
Fifties large breasts-Marilyn Monroe, Sixties thin
again, Seventies getting taller. And maybe the very
erotic response is dominated by that kind of motivation. It's disgusting really, but there's so much media
overkill that even an intelligent person can't get
around it. I guess we're just an extremely visuallyoriented species at present in our development; our
aural faculties are very, very poor. Certainly smell is
almost ruled out-by pollution. body sprays and a million varieties of soap .... We can distinguish fuck-all
as far as hearing goes-the minute you get any kind of
noise signal coming in, the 20th century human being
is still quite poor at translating that into any kind of
meaning ...
R/S, What do you think is the value of so-called primitive
SPK: Of course, to us the Aboriginals are very close. If
you look at the Australian aborigine, they're almost
decimated. I don't think another culture in the world's
had their society destroyed like that- thousands were
hunted down like animals. The Tasmanian aborigine
didn't even know how to use fire, and that's primitive. I
don't think there's another one being discovered anywhere who didn't know how to use fire, and it gets cold
R/S, Mastery of fire required some kind of intuitive leap.
Everyone's trying to develop their instincts-that faculty by
which you make intuitive leaps ....
SPK: I think that the area of archetypes is one of the
most important ones to look into-Jungian, postJungian. . .. A French anthropologist called Durand
(whom I'm very influenced by) has this idea of archetypes as types of movement, as dynamic processes,
rather than static forms of information. If you apply
that to the unconscious, you could do something by
looking at primitive societies and seeing how they
reason, or un-reason, and come up with something
different. Yet to leave everything to spontaneity is
inimical to me. I've never been a great fan of
spontaneity-I think you get a lot of rubbish turning
R/S, Then again you can also have the trance stateSPK: Sometimes, sometimes. But sometimes a lot of
drivel comes out of it! It needs to be directed in some
way. This is the problem: I never feel antirationality- I don't think we should go into irrationality pure and simple. That's just the back side of the
mirror-you can't see much there. In a way, you have
to be quite rational to be irrational, or to be consistendy so, anyway. You've got to really look at logicyou get pre-rational consistency theorems, things that
seem to have some claim to truth. I think logic's an
important area of study-it claims to precede mathematics and be a complete science-there is nothing
you can do with it, therefore it must be true. Hopefully
someone will come along and disprove the whole
R/S, The problem with logic is the often-present x factor;
often there are not enough information bits to begin with.
SPK: Right. There're also the well-known paradoxes,



:' ..


. .:

which are sort of unprovable, like Russell's paradox.

And I read in an article on Artificial Intelligence about
a problem which is basically this: whatever you think
of, there's always something outside that which
doesn't fit in with what you've just thought of, that can
annihilate it.
I don't know; I would just hope that this whole
"Industrial Counterculture" can have the ability to
actually become a guerilla movement in some way, a
propagandist guerilla movement, instead of just
another little set of ideas.
R/S: Basically you look at the people actually involved: very
individualistic yetSPK.: All quite cooperative in a way, as long as they
don't have to live on top of each other- have meetings,
and shit like that.
R!S: And some are conspicuously able to defend the convolutions of their careersSPK.: A lot of that is the ability to rationalize yourself
out of awkward questions ... there's a lot of ex post
justification of things that really you do just for the
hell of it. Most of the people are sort of smiling when
they come up with some kind of justification-there's
a lot of humor that goes on. It's just the ability to
handle the required argument systems ...while continuing to entertain .... Entertainment-now there's
a loaded word!
R/S: I think true entenainment involves new information or
new angles or new ideas. There are thousands of new patents
taken out every year-somebody should start a weekly maga-

zine dealing with the patents taken out that week, just taken as
ideas. The context could be the pleasure of invention. . .. I'm
sure Mark Pauline gets a certain satisfaction out of piecing
together meat and metal pans and a motor to create an entity, a
rabot or centipede that actually works, that's got a life of its
own-its own biorhythm, or bio-mechanoid rhythm ....
SPK.: Robot terrorists, for technical mayhem! No, I
don't think they'd make great terrorists. To be a terrorist you've got to have a good publicity organ-a public
voice and public opinion. And that's where the Red
Brigades succeeded where the Baader-Meinhof didn't.
They're precise-they don't blow up anybody that
they're not trying to blow up. They don't put bombs in
rubbish bins on trains- they go up to a guy and they
knock him off, like the Mafia does. And they've usually
got some bloody good reason. And from what I've read,
they've usually got all the symbolic implicationswhen they kidnapped Moro they took him from a certain place like the Fountain of Youth to the Place of
Death in Italy. It was beautiful the way they organized
itR/S: Poetry and revolution-in the best sense!
SPK Yes, it's a great shame they'll have to come to an
end eventually. In fact it's a shame that they have to do
it at all, but I guess they have a lot of fun doing it as
R/S: A shon and exciting life.
SPK.: Mark Pauline came up with the statement that
he thought wars were fun! I said, Well what about
Vietnam-isn't there a difference between that
Brickworks, Australia.

.. "

and ... ? He said he guessed so, but he still liked the

idea-the gratuitous violence, out-and-out instinctual
killing. That's something I find very, very questionable. I don't care if bloody America rons around killing
itself, but to wander off into another countrywhere it's
got no fucking business and kill the natives for no
apparent reason, is totally beyond ....
I'm definitely anti-violence. Even though we might
show violence, I think it's in a negative sense. I'd
rather there were no violence. Given that there is,
Malcolm X said once: "Violence is neither right nor
wrong, it's an aspect of the situation." Since there is
violence, obviously there has to be more- in order to
counter it. I think that's the way society gets away with
a hell of a lot: it pretends to be passive with respect to
violence when in fact it's committing atrocities all the
time-but they're hidden. And that's a lot ofwhat SPK's
got to do with it. We're showing their atrocity exhibition, whereas they don't choose to show it, even
though they perpetrate it all the time. Such as when
they try to make juxtapositions with accepted things,
like drugs to mental patients, while the same drugs
with the same side effects, when administered to soldiers, is the ultimate horror.
Also, the idea of distinctions between hardcore pornographyand soft<ore pornography-ifyou do linguistic analyses you find just the same situation in both,
men and women in the same situation, except the
softcore stuff is a lot more subliminal-it's more dangerous in a way because of that. I find most of the soft
things, the ordinary things that go on in a society,like
advertising, quite atrocious-they're an atroeityon ~
brain, that's for sure. I feel as though I'm being
needled all the time, from everything that comes in.
It's possible to say I'm exaggerating, but really, if you
have got a kind of self-respect for your own intelligence and your own ability to think, this sort of thing
coming in at you aU the time is insane.
Of course, any person who's adjusted can deal with
it-that's what adjustment's called-mtering, really.
Obviously you can't get away from it. I stay at home, I
don't watch television, but it's always there, you know
it's there. Every person wears it all over themself, and
you can't get away from yourself. It's a paranoid
unconscious space we live in.
Art brut painters like Robert Gie whose painting I
love- I always think: God, what would it be like to be a
psycho, and to actually be able to hear all this crap
over the airwaves all the time, and to not be able to get
away from it. Imaginary or real, it doesn't make any
difference-if you could hear, say, KUSF 24 hours a
day, rattling away at your brain. . .. I guess we must
thank 'god' that we are not telepaths-whatwould we
be hearing? If it was just drivel it wouldn't be worth it.
R/S: Why do you like Art Brut?
SPK: Because it's so original. A lot of the trends in art
have been pointed to, often very much before they
became popular. And very unself-unconsciously, very
primevally in a way, usually from no knowledge
R/S: No verbalized theorySPK: Just a perfectly sort of naive artistic attitute in a
way, but still in a weird way reflecting the times. But I
think even more are the little landscapes that are


painted so accurately. I suppose all art is about the

unconscious, really.
I respect Dubuffet for what he did-giving up his
career, just devoting himself to be a researcher, collecting all that stuff. He tours it around Europe all the
Art brut is not necessarily mad art, even though a lot
of it is from institutions-jails and mental hospitals.
It's also people who've died in their home and when
they found them 6 weeks later sort of rotting away,
their house was covered with murals or bits ofwriting .
Some of it's quite ordinary art, but the people them-

A lot of what we're doing is dirt, is filth,

and we live in a society that pretends to
be exceptionally clean.
selves were so obsessive about what they did So it's just
a collection ofpeople that have no artistic training, not
much knowledge of art, who just documented their
mental processes. It suggests that there are millions
more that do the same thing, except not quite so obsessively ... who would never be heard of. In fact, people
that never even documented what their capacities
actually are. That's what it suggests ....
Obsession's not necessarily about quantity but about
commitment. Or, there are people who've almost had
no output-wrote halfa poem, but that halfa poem was
fucking good (there are plenty of people who've written a lot of poetry and none of it was any good). I think
one of the most important things in art is the art of
differentiation-the art of not copying.
It's too easy to be cynical. Not a totally original idea
but one of those that needs to be hammered out and
stated all the time. You can do a Warhol which you can
do at once- that period of art makes me want to chuck
up. You can almost make a statement about it, that it's
not art. I don't know what it is. I like the way Robert
Hughes attacked that.
R/S: What did he say?
SPK: He was really sarcastic about it; he just said that
it was public art, and that you can always take the piss
out of anything ... parody's not amusing. Warhol's like
a parrot or something.
Getting back to the idea of differentiation-it's a
whole recognition that art is a real sort of convulsive
change, or it can be a convulsive change ....
I could ask you a question I've always wondered You
always talk about information, in the sense that you're
researching information, trying to make it more available. What about concentrating equally as much on
imagination as non-factual information?
R/S: We're always looking for suggestions, ways to trigger the
imagination, bringing it into acrual usage more and more.
That's why reading even a biography of a relatively uninterest
ing artist may yield an account of how he (or she) got an idea
or inspiration, and that will be more interesting than anything
the artist ever created. Basically, the big goal is changing the
process of perception, rather than selling people a set of
perceptions or life 'styles' to consume-you know, this year's
fashion selection. People should be able to look at anything
themselves and make an independent judgment. And not even
so much a judgment as a differentiation based onSPK: Taste?



'. ",

R/S: In another part of this handbook, Boyd Rice talks about

the necessity for no taste-the necessity for absolute abolishment of the whole idea of taste. I know what he's trying to get
atSPK: I sort of know what he's trying to get at, too. It's
like, as I said, the idea of (to put it blatantly) screwing a
Playbody girl and screwing a Mongoloid. It's the purest
idea, the idea of no taste. I wonder if it works ....
R/S: I think he means a sort ofall-around aesthetic cleansing
process ....
SPK: I think as far as taste goes, most of us just dis-

imaginativeR/S: Or 99 percent.
SPK: But I'd like to refuse to believe that.
R/S: So would I, because-I look back on myself at certain
stages and shudder.
SPK: Yeah, well I think everybody does. But we try
not to fall prey to facile rationalizations like: It's only
human. That's one of the most loaded phrases in the
English language!
R/S: To deal with this problem. I usually think of Charles
Fourier, who proposed that even the most apparently untal-

At a Neuropsychiatric Lab in San

Diego, men are shown a series of
gruesome films which become
steadily more horrific. The trainee
is forced to watch by having his
head clamped so he cannot turn
away, and by the use of a device
which keeps his eyelids open. One
of the first films shows an African
youth being circumcized with a
blunt knife and without
anaesthetic. When the film is over,
the trainee is asked questions like
"What was the motif on the knife
handle?" or, "How many peopie
were holding the youth down?"

criminate on the basis of originality.

R/S: Well, that's one way. I always try to find out who did
anything first- Where have / heard that bejore? Seen that
bejore?You can't help it. At the same time I hate to see in print
comparisons-art in any form compared to other art.
SPK: That's part of the conditioning of classification-everything has to be classified.
R/S: Well, that's kind of the way memory works, doesn't it?
SPK How much do you actually subscribe to the old
animist psychological ideas? That perception has
something to do with humans all going through stages
of perceptive developments: from age nought to 6 we
open our eyes ... after the age of 14 we develop our
abstractive capabilities-things like that. I think to a
large extent a debate like this is political because it is
useful to those who gain from any justification of
inequality, that suggestion that some of us are
endowed with this capacity to be geniuses and brilliantly imaginative and perceptive, while unfortunately the majority aren't. And therefore ifl happen to
be one of these people who are thus endowed I can get
a lot more money and become king of this state-and
you shall be the serfs.
Now this is an enormous problem, I think. In some
ways there is a large justification for this theory that
there will always be that 90 percent of the population
which is basically incapable of doing anything

ented ot us have certain talents which usually just remain

latent, but could be put to admirable use in a more enlightened society. Like, even simple-minded people might make
wonderful mud sculptures that more rational people could
never do.
SPK: Well, that's what art bntt's about, in a way. You
wonder what goes on in the mind of a retard, because
we don't have the facilities to understand them-they
don't happen to fit into our communicative structure
and system. Once we have probably the greatest invention to ever come to mankind-the ability to actually
put on a screen a dream or what is going on in another
person's mind-that's got to happen in our lifetime.
That would be the most important thing to happen in
our lifetime. And then actually animate it-that's the
next step. Science fiction stuff, but beautiful.
R/S: Well, computer manipulation of color graphicS is getting more sophisticated. You can now bring a tree from the
background to the foreground, put people in the picture who
aren't there, quickly and easily.
SPK: Some holograms aren't bad, but I actually think
it's still quite poor. There's a lot of things we could do
so much quicker if only we didn't have a fucking capitalist motive for everything; we didn't have to make
immediate cash out of everything. On the other hand,
capitalism is probably the most efficient system we've
come up with so far to develop technology. certainly

' , ' , ,,"


the communists didn't develop the microchip ....

R/S: I'd like to hear a bit more about your theory of the
history of philosophy being the history of syphilis, which
you're writing a book about?
SPK: In a way it's a book of humor, really. It's in the
same vein as any book which questions the validity of
knowledge as some kind of structured and unified
theory. Just another questioning of truth, where you
can look at people like-probably most of the Greeks
had syphilis, what with their bestiality. The Romans as
well. A little less recurrent in recent history-you have

people like Nieusche and Idi Amin-I wouldn't classify ldi Amin as a pbUosopberR/S: A very practical philosopher, actually!
SPK: Getting back, it's not so much a tongue-in-cheek
laugh at philosophy and the great human knowledge,
it's also an attempt to verbalize bacteria, if you like.
And I think in a sense that's what that kind of philosophy did-it was more or less speaking for the bacterial component of the earth. And that's why I'm
interested in also writing something similar about viruses. The theory of viral cancer is fascinating, especially the idea that it's in the genotype of the human
population. It's in everybody, but it's only expressed in
about 10% of the cases. It's on the increase in the
There's a theory that they actually travel in space
and the earth contracted them because of the meteorites that fell onto earth. I believe satellites have seen
them floating around in scans. They're quite extraordinary. They don't need a host, but they have a helluva
lot of fun when they find one!
R/S: That's their art.
SPK: It's their self-expression for a bit.
R/S: Viruses from space kind of blow the old moral system
out the window.
SPK: Yes. It's been quite a difficult book to write, sort
of like a focus point for an idea of the human imagina-

tion as being influenced by some kind ofa partnership

with primitive life forms ....
R/S: Why are you concerned with mutations?
SPK: They still represent the disgusting side of the
society that we still live in. Why are all these mutations
occurring in society at an increasing rate? It's crazy
that they're all kept away from public attentionR/S: I'm always trying to find Out the real motivations for
anything. And trying to become more scientific about death as
SPK: People actually believe so many different theories about life after death. Like New Guinea tribesmen have no understanding of the western idea of
what life after death is. They couldn't even understand
the body as a physical being in certain ways-wouldn't
understand the electrical and genetic processes going
on inside the body which are narrowed down to a
cause-and-effect explanation. They have no faith in
that kind of rationale.
Jean Baudrillard wrote a little book called The Mirror ofProdr:tion. In it is a long chapter on the modem western inability to accept violent death- it has to
be slow, peaceful and quiet. It seems to be a dynamic
that we can't accept anything abrupt- it's got to be in
some way cause-and-effect, an obvious, perfectly
explicable decline or something like that. And even
taking it down to the supposediy liberal idea of getting
rid of capital punishment-maybe it's just that we
can't stand the idea of violent death.
On the other hand you've got modem societywhere
everybody delights in seeing bloody stupid 1V programs with people getting shot up and killed in car
crashes and things like that. But that's an attempt to
make the violent thingR/S: Romantic?
SPK: I would have thought more ajoke! There ought
to be laugh tracks and whoopee and shouts when
somebody gets killed in a cowboy movie or something
like that-there's no horror involved in death whatsoever. How many people come into contact with an
actual death? Very few.
The funny thing about all that is, in that sense we
can almost make a claim that we are not sensationalists, and that we show death as real and in fact not
sensational at all-those are real photos of people
being shot and blood going everywhereR/S: I don't think many real images of death have been
seen. In Street Cops there was only one photo in the whole
book that affected me. It was ofa guy who had just been shot
by a shotgun in the stomach-there's vomit dripping everywhere, his mouth is full of vomit, and he looks sick ....
SPK: In that book Violence In Our Times, there are
photos like the one of the Jews all piled up. That's
become a popular image-sensationalist in quantity,
you know, and people've seen it 100,000 times. It's
almost-respectable. But to show just one pathetic
mangled body covered in vomit ....
R/S: Incidentally, what ideas of yours have died on the vine,
so to speak?
SPK: In our first album we tried to put a sperm capsule in every one. We lined up about f"lve hundred
capsules ... and started putting the sperm in. After
working hours, when we were f"lnishing up the 500th,
we noticed the tlrst ones had almost dissolved-






.: ,'.:', . .: ..: .





: .~.~



R S: Sperm's "ely acidicSPK: Yes, that was a tremendous waste of energy! It

was kind of corny. We weren't going to saywhat it was.
I just wanted to see how many people would put it in
their mouths.
R!S: Of course people would-this is a pill society. People
will take anything.
SPK: It would have been funny if Customs had
opened up the luggage and found this, and then run
tests on it. You couldn't be prosecuted though, I think.
R S: It's art-BcxIy Art, so to speak.
SPK: What if you had any sexual disease? Could they
get you for smuggling?
R!S: Oh, like Columbus and the Indians? The Indians had
syphilis, except to them it was like a cold. The white people
got it by raping the Indians. It was amazing how fast it spread
over Europe. Within a year it was all over Italy, down from
SPK: Today's fashionable disease is cancer. I'm most
convinced that cancer in some ways involves a faith or
belief mechanism. I don't think it's purely physicaldon't think any disease is. I think that maybe the cure
even involves trying to cooperate in some way .... It's
only in the last couple hundred years that we've had
the conception of progress, and with that we've 20tten
cancer as well. I definitely think cancer is a byproduct of this civilization because it's on the increase in
spite of how much they spend on research. It's perhaps psychosomatic in the purest sense-you can't
separate the mind from the body.
R!S: How does cancer fit into a modern mythology?
SPK: To begin with, Durand analyzed and integrated
all these symbols into massive cross-cultural myths,
organizing these archetypes into:
Heroic, i.e the sword and the spear, the penile erection, and things like that which are in some ways
moving upwards. Like a cobra ....
Then you had the intimate images; things like digestion, or going down-the mother, water .. _.

A technique used to explqit the need to

comply is to spend hours asking and
shouting questions to which the prisoner cannot possibly know the
answer-details of atomic weaponry.
etc. Many ex-prisoners spoke of the
"tremendous feeling of relief you get
when he finally asks something you
can answer."
Then you had the great cyclical myths: Taoism,
Nietzsche-more like the great cosmic circle. The ultimate in philosophy seems to be the idea ofthe eternal
return. The yin and the yang.
But I think you can go on from that. Take the idea of
proliferation, which seems to be extremely relevant
to our society at the moment. This is the age of everything proliferating- information, nuclear armament,
cancer, disease, psychosis .... So I really think that's
worthwhile analyzing in terms of modern archetypes,
and probably would be for the next few years.
After that, the idea of the convulsion of everything:

massive rapid changes, total upheaval, an age of

extreme mutations- things like that which might
come after the proliferation age ....
All you really need to do is look at wave forms and
imagine the kind of overriding dynamics which might
create certain eras on the earth. I think we've gone
through the progress era- that great romantic era. We
probably went through the great mystical cycle era as
well very early on-pre-Christ. Maybe the Dark Ages
and the Middle Ages were the great intimacy, lost-inthe-wilderness type of era. But now, everything is in
massive expansion, moving all directions at once. And
not necessarily toward apocalypse. It seems like that's
about to happen, but that's been a popular belief for a
very long time. Ifyou read about what happened in the
year 1000-there was mass hysteria all over Europe
because they all thought they were in a millenial age
then. We've always been in the millenial age! It's sort of
natural that when you come up to the year 2000, you
expect it all to happen in 1999. I don't really think
we're coming into any great Nostradamus-type
I would like to see the convulsive age. That's the one
I would like to theorize. It's really the anarchist idea of
total revolution-continuous revolution where everything is in constant change and you no longer need
any landmarks to get a fix on. I think that would be the
eternal return really, because everything would be
happening at once. And in that sense I think we are
reaching that kind of situation where it's almost
impossible to keep track of what's going on.
Technology has reached an unbelievable degree of
sophistication, where computers are actualIy designing parts of other computers. . .. But I don't think
there's really anything in there that defies the human
brain. All it is, is the number of combinations and the
speed of combinations that the computer can go
through; the options. There is nothing on an individual scope that the human brain does not understand. It
was the one that programmed the bastard to start
with-to generate those structural options. I'm afraid
that I'll always disagree with the idea that technology
is moving that fast ....
R!S: Technology specifically for the art of living isn't developing all that fast, but secret military innovation conrinuesSPK: There's so much going on that we won't f"md out
about for another 10 years, if we do f"md out. For
instance, the Americans have these huge air fields on
the west coast of Australia that have been landing
American Air Force planes for years and years, and the
Australians have never scrutinized one of them.
They've only just found out about them, because of
that 5-year ( or whatever) lag in information. In some
way a document was "leaked" to the press that the
Americans are flying B-52s in and have built some
actual underground cities in the desert. But-that's
only a small fraction of what's going on.
RlS: Sometimes the information gap seems so enormous it's
discouraging-trying to close up the gap. Howdoyou keep on
motivating yourselves to do more?
SPK: Through confidence and blind optimism! All
the criticism we've gotten doesn't mean anything-I
always think I know what I'm doing. We've had a long
history of being outsiders. ...



.... .. :- . ",'


\,.'.' ~~:.;:;;

. :'.: ';~~-:;':4'


The Post-I ndustrial Strategy

..... ,....., .....


The true meaning of the slogan, We are
all German Jews, is not solidarity but the
inescapable fact that these people are
NOT deviant phenomena. THIS SITUATION IS THE NORM. DEATH IS EVERYWHERE IN LIFE. SPK is not fetishing a
situation, it is exposing this Cathedral of
The strategy is not dialecticalliberation vs. control, unconscious vs.
conscious, deviant vs. normal, sexual vs.
The strategy is CATASTROPHICpushing the situation to the limit.
The strategy is SYMBOLIC-using the
system's own intolerable signs against it.
The strategy is ANONYMOUS-the
refusal to be categorizable as another star
deviant. We are the norm. We are the


(Twilight of the Idols)
Michel Foucault in Discipline and Punish: the mechanism of social control has
changed from liquidation or internment
to therapeutic. Criminals or the insane
are now simply recycled and turned into
normalized homogeneous citizens. Both
the right and the left wish to feel responsible for these problems and to reintegrate
the deviant. We must not do this. Our
interest in social deviance must be to
maintain and extend the disability of the
system to keep its margins under control.
Another fiction is the idea that by liberating the unconscious or the "psychic"
we can attack the post-industrial simulacre. To begin with, the modern notion of
unconscious is just another metaphysical
concept. The primitives had no need of it
because they had no distinction between
the civilized and the savage mind. Only
with emancipation or the idea of freedom
did the need arise for the Master to be
interiorized in us all and alienation begins.
All savage, wandering and symbolic processes came to be called "unconscious"
and were thereby domesticated like
death. Any idea which maintains this arti-

ficial separation is tragically missing the

point. Furthermore it is foolish to think
that a social code which created the
unconscious is not able to inscribe and
control it, just the same as it manipulates
our conscious lives. Indeed this is the
most effective method the code uses for
its perpetuation. Psychic liberation is the
very form of the system, not a radical
solution as the drug experimentation of
the Sixties showed. Changing individuals
does not necessarily change societies.


It has been some decades since Western culture could be accurately describe
as Industrial. Since the underconsumption crisis of the Thirties, we
have shifted entirely into a social structure dominated not by production but by
reproduction, not by equivalence but by
commutation, not by merchandise but by
the model. We live in a post-industrial
world. A world no longer where all labor is
exchanged and loses its singularity but
where labor and leisure become entwined. Not a culture bought and sold but
one where all cultures simulate one
another. Not a place where love is prostituted but one where a liberated keel sexuality is compulsory. And an era in which
time is no longer accumulated like money
but is broken in a confused web of nostalgia, fetishism and futurism.
SPK has always been certain to establish its separation from any label like
"industrial" because it has always
pursued a strategy more in keeping with
an attack on a structure radically more
efficient-the successor to industrial
society. The realization of this difference
is vital for any strategy: artistic, revolutionary, terroristic. If not, we shall only
continue to confuse the symptom for the
cure ....
If the industrial era was determined by
its capitalist mode, then the postindustrial is hyper-capitalist. And in the
sphere of signs the society has become
indeterminate and codified. In the preindustrial era every sign had a corresponding reality. In the industrial, every

sign became equivalent to all others with

money as the mode of social coherence.
Now, however, all signs have become
models, slightly differentiating all social
reproduction-a generalized code of simulation. The real horror is that this process
no longer stops at the factory gate but
penetrates our homes, our loves and our
minds. All our time becomes marked
time ....
Walter Benjamin (Mcluhan later) was
the first to realize that technology was
not a productive force but a MEDIUMthe principle-the FORM of the new
society of publicity, information and
communications networks. Seriality or
the mechanical reproduction of exactly
equivalent clones had given way to models generative of all forms according to a
modulus of differences. This digitalized
genetic cellule-the code-produces all
questions and all possible solutions. A
DNA generative of control of the social

The system has produced a special kind
of death, a calculated system of signs. If
the cemetery and the asylum are in the?
process of disappearing it is because
death is everywhere and no longer needs '"
to be hidden away. Today it is ethnocidal.
judicial, concentrational. sensational. A
complex fetishism of death as deviancehence "star" deaths like Manson, Jones
or Vietnam are just part of the system's
own sensationalist fetishism. The true
horror is statistical death which is the byproduct of normalization and the therapeutic. Serums and laboratories are only
the alibi for the prohibition of the speech
of the dying.
It is quite obvious, then, why all our
attention is focused on violent death,
which alone manifests something like
sacrifice-the transmutation of the real
by the Will of the group. All artificial
death is therefore a product of a social
Suicide equals murder. (from the manifesto of the original Sozialistisches

Patienten Kollektiv)



The "sexual revolution" was nothing
but a neutralization of all sexuality by its
extension to all significations. It is a spectacle, an imperative, an advertisement.
The fetishes are no longer private or antisocial as in de Sade-they are compulsory, they are normalized, they are
transparent. Transparency is not a radical
idea but a fundamental demand of the
system today. Michel Foucault in The History of Sexuality (vol 1) shows how all
sexuality including deviations are "confessed" so that the code can be total.
Read Penthouse Forum. Every sexual
possibility is catalogued in some cheap
porno movie to be reproduced by us in our
private lives.
The body has become entirely sexualized/but sex without qualities. Nudity is
sexually redundant, the body having
passed to a mannequin to focus signsclothing, make-up, furniture, restaurant,
car, etc. The body is fetishized as a manipulation of masks; the idea ofthe optimum
body becomes nothing but the "you" of
the advertisement-fragmented and
reconstituted as a model.
The only possible attack on this totality
is the exhibition of intolerable bodiesmutated, diseased, deformed, dead.
Hence our extensive file of unacceptable
flesh. This is not our obsession-this is
merely the obverse of the obsessive code.
Marcuse called this sexual revolution
"repressive desublimation." It is no
longer violent and aimed at the genitals, it
is more subtle and seduces us to play.
Death is the only possible pornography
for this system ... there is no radical
sexuality ....


To demand that information tell the
truth is to revert to a pre-industrial mode.
Today there is no reality, or everything is
real and everything is unreal. Today the
object no longer refers to the real nor to
information. Both are already the result of
a selection, a montage, a taking of views.
The role of messages is no longer information but a test -of success at interpreting acording to the code for the
perpetuation of the code. Thus the CONTROL problem is not one of surveillance,
propaganda or paranoia. It is one of subjective influence, consent and extension
to all possible spheres of life. The incorporation of the code into the corpse itself
(Cf. Baudrillard: the "Ieucemisation" of
all social substance, 103)
Modernity is not the transmutation of
values-the myth of progress and
change-but a commutation, combinatory and ambiguous. In this process art
and reality come to simulate each other.
The dichotomy between real and imaginary collapses and commerce, the politi\

cal, and the scientific become immersed

more in aesthetics than in reality in the old
sense. Symbols everywhere-ideologies,
personalities, publicity-the new form of
power. In politics as in art and culture, the
obsession with the "new" is always
limited to the rate of change tolerable
without altering the essential order. And
our lives, as works of art created by this
public(ity) code, participate in the same
"It remains to be seen if this operationality is not itself a myth, if DNA is not
itself a myth." (Jean Baudrillard,
L'Echange symbolique et la Mort, p94)
We are living at the beginning of an
epoch which history will cometo know as
another Dark Age. But unlike the first one
characterized by the concealment of
information, we suffer from an almost
opposite problem-information overload. The demand for more information is
not radical-it is to demand exactly what
the system already inundates us with:


Sept 1978. Formed Sydney, Australia.

1979. Five members: EMS AKS (synthesizers, tapes, rhythm machines, vokals), Ne/H/iL
(vokals, rhythm treatments), Danny Rumour
(guitars), David Virgin (bass), Karmel E-Clastic
(drums). Perlormed 3 times in Sydney. Video of
perlormance by S. Jones.
1980-81. Four members: Operator
(EMSAKS) on tapes, synthesizers, rhythms,
vokals, metal; Tone Generator (synthesizers,
visuals); Wilkins (guitars, bass), Mr. Clean
(engineer). Perlormed Dec 1980 with Throbbing Gristle and A Certain Ratio in London;
April 1981 with Factrix in San Francisco.
January-June 1982. Four members: Oblivon
(Operator) on tapes, rhythms, metal. synths,
vokals, electronik perkussion; Ne/H/i1
(rhythms, synths), Tone Generator (video, visuals), Pinker (drums, electronik perkussion). Performed twice in Sydney, Australia, including an
outdoor venue at an abandoned Brickworks.
We live entirely a fiction of evolutionToured USA perlorming 11 times from San
ism: for capitalism a belief in an eternity] Francisco to New York.
of accumulation and progress; for
June-December 1982. Three members:
science a faith in an infinite march
Oblivon (all kompositions and instruments),
towards truth; for social manipulation a
Sinan (electronik and metal perkussion),
belief in control from cradle to grave. The
Dominik Guerin (Tone Generator) on video and
visuals. Perlormed October with Virgin Prunes
profound law of the prevailing social
in London. Toured West Germany and Italy
order is therefore not economic but the
(Berlin, Frankfurt, Rome).
progressive manipulation of life and

death. From birth control to death control

it's the same system of extermination.
Only now there is no longer any need for
actual death. The operation is realized in
forced survival which only suicides not
made of despair can breach. Society in
the post-industrial era is one of slowdeath where all time is marked, where all
subjects are the (in)voluntary recipients
of the unilateral gifts of employment,
social security, material/sexual gratification and most of all the incessant bombardment of how one ought to look,
think, and act. A living death.
Power always rests in the last instance
on the power to put to death-actual,
threatened or symbolic. And in the modern case this power operates symbolically
by the naturalization, or MEDICALlZATION of life and death. "Primitive" societies treated death as a social relationship,
hence the initiation ceremony or sacrificial rite was a shared or social birth and
death respectively. No "individual" was
ever born or put to death. This symbolic
exchange ends the disjunction between
life and death (a concept of naturality
which is just part of our modern scientific
idealism) and therefore also between real
and imaginary. Instead we have autonomized death as an individual fatality,
thus absolving society from most
responsibility .

Side Effekts, deleted)
Effekts, deleted)
3) MEKANO/SLOGUN (45, Industrial
from Side Effekts, 68 Bonnington Square, London SW8 UK)
5) LIVE ATTHE CRYPT (cassette, nfrom Sterile Records, 90 Lilford Rd, London SE5 UK)
6) SOLIPSIK (EP, M2 Records, Sydney,
7) LEICHENSCHREI (LP, $12 from Thermidor,
912 Bancroft, Berkeley CA 94710).
$11 from Fresh Sounds, PO Box 36, Lawrence
KS 66044)
VIVA Italy, Via Gramsci 53, 00197 Rome.
10) AUTO-DA-FE (12" 45, Walter Ulbricht,
Schallfolien AG, Durchschnitt 15, 2000 Hamburg 13, W Germany)
11) DEKOMPOSITIONS (12" EP, 7 from
Side Effekts, 68 Bonnington Square, London
12) DESPAIR (UHS/PAL + NTSC videocassette/write Side Effekts or Fresh Sounds for


. .l

... :- ".:

.. ;.,: ...

Machines Who Think/P McCorduck
What Computers Can't Do/H Dreyfus
Machine Intelligence (9 volume set)
Violence 8< The Sacred/R Girard
The Works/Claude Levi-Strauss
Jane's Weapon Systems (annual, London)
Improved Munitions Black Book, 2 vols,
$20 from Desert Pubs, Cornville AZ 86325
Loompanics Catalog, $2 from PO Box 1197,
Port Townsend WA 98368
Paladin Press Catalog, $1 from PO Box 1307,
Boulder CO 80306
The Myth of The Master Race/R Cecil
International Fascism/G L Mosse
Genocide/L Kuper
Hitler: The Occult Messiah/Gerald Suster
SS 8< Gestapo: Rule By Terror/R Manuell
Hitler's Ideology: A Study in Psychoanalytic Sociology/R Koenigsberg
Hitler's Propaganda Machine/Rutherford
Nazi Cinema/Erwin Leiser
Physical Control of the Mind/J Delgado
The Mind Manipulators/Scheflin 8< Opton
Wolfe Medical Atlases (15 ea, Wolfe
House, 3 Conway St, London W1 P 6HE UK)
Venereology; Microbiology; Forensic
Pathology; Pediatrics; Virology
Forensic Medicine: A Study In Trauma and
Environmental Hazards/ed Tedeschi et al
Forensic Pathology: A Handbook
For Pathologists
Neurosurgical Treatment in Psychiatry,
Pain 8< Epilepsy/ed W Sweet et al
Sudden 8< Unexpected Death/F Camps
Techniques of Crime Scene Investigation
Sound, Noise 8< Vibration ControllYerges
Sound 8< Its Medical Effects/D Crystral
Sound Research Laboratories, Basic
Vibration Controll Bromer et al
The Occult 8< Paranormal World
Occult Guide to South America
An Occult History of the World/Brennan
History of Witchcraft, Sorcerers,
Heretics, etc/J B Russell
Occult Philosophy/Marc E Jones
The Occult Source Book/N Perry
Ency of Occultism 8< Parapsychology
Maps of Consciousness/R Metzner
Superminds/J Taylor
Secret Teachings of All Ages/M P Hall
History of Magic 8< Experimental
Science/8 vols, Columbia Univ, 1934
Religion 8< the Decline of Magic/Thomas
A Dictionary of Symbols/J E Cirlot
Mysterious Powers/Spirits 8< Spirit Worlds
Handbook of Parapsychology/B B Wolman
The Satanic Rituals/ A S laVey

The Alchemists/R Pearsall

The Alchemists/ A J P Smith
Alchemy 8< Magic/S Fabricius
Performance/R Goldberg
The Bachelor Machines (Rizzoli)
Art BrutiM Thevoz
Art Brutl ed Jean Dubuffet
300 Years of Psychiatry 1535-1860
Psychology of the TV Image/Baggaley etc
Psychopathology: its causes & symptoms
Modern Psychopathology/T Millon
Human Nature 8< Science/S E Perry
Treatment or Torture/G S Jonas
Genetics & Mental Disorders
Russia's Political Hospitals
The Threat of Impending Disaster
The Myth of Analysis/J Hillman
Bedlam/ A Masters
Works/de Sade (esp 120 Days of Sodom)
Psychopharmacology of Aggression/Valtelli
Psychopharmacology of Depression
Psychopharmacology of Hallucinogens
Psychosexual Problems/Sidney Crown
Psychotherapy of Schizophrenia/ed Strauss
The Psychotic: Understanding Madness
The American Journal of Psychiatry
The Atrocity Exhibition/J G Ballard
Crash; Hello America/J G Ballard
Myths of the Near Future/J G Ballard
Crowds 8< Power/Elias Canetti
Metamorphosis; The Castle/Kafka
In the Penal Colony; The Trial/ "
Finnegan's Wake/Joyce
The Lost Ones/Beckett
The Unnameable/Beckett
Venus In Furs/Sacher-Masoch
Writings/ Artaud
Works/Jorge-Luis Borges
Man A Machine/La Mettrie
AntiOedipus/Deleuze 8< Guattari
Rhizome/Deleuze 8< Guattari
Mille Plateaux/Deleuze & Guattari
Against Method/Paul Feyerabend
The Works of/Michel Foucault
Morphogenese et Imaginaire/Rene Thom
Catastrophe Theory/Rene Thom
Mirror of Production/Jean Baudrillard
L'Exchange Symbolique et la Mort/
Systeme des Objets/ "
Political Economy 8< the Sign/
The History of La Borde/F Guattari
Bruits/Jacques Attali
libidinal Economy/Jean F Lyotard
La Condition Post-Moderne/ "
Rudiments Paienes/
Hermes (vol I-IV)/Michel Serres
L'Antipublicite/ Jacques Fontanel
Nietzsche et Le Circle Vicieux/Klossowski
The Philosophy of No/G Bachelard
le Normale et Ie Pathologique/Cariguillem
Every word of/F Nietzsche

i1!i"i{~ 1

Archetypes 8< The Collective

Unconscious/Carl Jung
Symbols 8< Transformation/
Mysterium Conjunction is/
Psychology 8< Alchemy/
Les Structures Anthropologiques de
L'lmaginaire/Gilbert Durand
Passion/Jacob Boehme
Passion/ Angelus Silerius
Treatises 8< Sermons/Meister Eckhart
Silence; Notations; M/John Cage
For The Birds/
Statism 8< Anarchism/Bakunin
(Maximoff/Dolgoff compilations)
Ethics; Mutual Aid/Peter Kropotkin
What is Property?/Proudhon
All Situationist Texts
Mass Psychology of Fascism/W Reich
Antipsychiatry/T Szasz 8< 0 Cooper

:~:! '::P'~:


Photo (esp annual compilations)
Obliques (R Borderie. Boite postale #1,
les Pilles, 26110 Nyons France)
des Jahres '80s (Germany)

. -'"

The Golem/Paul Wegener
Nosferatu/F W Murnau
L'Age D'or; Un Chien Andalou/Buiiuel
That Obscure Object of Desire; Las Hurdes/"
Dr Mabuse (series); Metropolis/Fritz Lang
Gold; Der Tunnel/Karl Harth
Night 8< Fog/ Alain Resnais
Psycho; The Birds/Hitchcock
Freaks/Tod Browning
Repulsion/Roman Polanski
Marat-Sade/Peter Brook
Eraserhead/ David Lynch
The Conversation/Francis Ford Coppola
Taxi Driver/Martin Scorcese
Stalker/ Andrei Tarkovski
Alphaville; Letters to Jane/ Godard
Holy Mountain/Jodorowsky
Aguirre; Even Dwarfs Started Small/Herzog
Various Films/Kurt Kren (esp Action, Mama
8< Papa, Leda 8< the Swan w/Otto Muehl.
Self-Mutilation, Ana-Action Brus
2001 (1st 8< last 5 minutes)
Sweet Movie/Makavejev
The Hill/Sidney Lumet
La Grande Bouffe/ Marco Ferreri
Themroc/Claude Faraldo
Marathon Man/John Schlesinger
The Prisoner (BBC TV series)
Olympia/Leni Riefenstahl
Triumph of the Will/ "
The Eternal Jew/Fritz Hiffler
Jud Suss/Veit Harlan
Hitlerjunge Quaz/Hans Steinhoff
I Accuse/Wolfgang liebeneiner



Above Z'ev portrait: Bobby Adams. Previous pages: Z'ev series by Catherine Ceresole; large portrait by Bobby Adams.

'ev, a conslant world traveler, is a percussionist with found/assembled kinetic sculpturesmetal and plastic tubes, tubs, pans, bottles, sheets,
springs, strung together or not, hurtled around the
stage, beat upon with mallets or sticks but orchestrated
for contrasts and crescendos of rhythmic noise, in an
athletic/dance feat dangerous to performer and
audience alike (performer must wear knee and elbow
Z'ev started out in 1978 playing countless 15minute sets at the Mabuhay in San Francisco and getting
nowhere. Aturning point came in 1979 when he risked
all for an East Coast tour and received serious recognition at last. Subsequently he has played countless shows
in Europe and the USA, alternating between New York
and Holland as bases of operation.
Z'ev, who's also known as Yoel, Shaoul, Uns, Rax
Werx, GDG, Element L, Deesse, Magneet Bond, and
Stefan Weisser, has released a number of records on
Subterranean, Lust/Unlust, Fetish, Vinyl, and other
Sidestepping his predilection for the arcane science
of the Cabala, Z'ev reveals some of his practical prestidigitation in this interview with Andrea Juno and
Vale ....
R/S: What are you and people like Mark Pauline against?
Z'EV: Basically we're against the military-industrial
complex ... yet the work we're doing requires that
form of economy, so you're like, stuck! It's fucked. It's
a complete paradox: that a lot of the people that are
the most politically motivated, performance-wise, use
resources that are direct products of that economy.
R/S: Reagan's increased the military economy by billions
under the premise that the military creates jobs, yet a recent
funded investigation said that arms spending wipes out
jobs ....
Z'EV: Not only that, but all these new super-tech systems that they're building are broken down more than
they're up. And they spend all this money training
people to run them, but as soon as their term ofenlistment is up they get out and go into the private sector
where they make much more money. They're just
always training these people-nobody sticks around!
So you have complex machines that most of the time
don't work, with not enough qualified people around
to run them .... It's amazing!
R/S: How is your politics manifested in your sound
Z'EV: Through a broad definition ... say, the politics
of culture and consumerism. On one level it's a

double-edged sword in that you do something and

somebody listens to it-it's that system. But Uns, for
example, makes a music that just listening to you'd
think used a huge studio, whereas it's just cassette
recorders, skipping record players and an old organ.
Z'ev uses these metals, and 4as to do with the fact that
you can go out and build and create your own musicyou don't have to go out to a store and buy the latest
musical things. It is on one level anti-consumer technology ("to be able to do somethingyou have to spend
a certain amount of money, get the state-of-the-art this
and that").
I've always been very committed to low-tech as
opposed to high-tech! In Europe, a lot of bands are
starting to use metals in percussion, to get a richness
and variety of texture and timbre that one would normally go to a synthesizer for. Whereas in America
there's still this concept in people's heads that a $5000
synthesizer is going to make them a better musician.
R/S: I think that even more basic than all that is the fact that
what you're doing is based on stolen, recycled, discarded and
re-utilized products.
Z'EV: The stealing is one aspect, the recycling is
another. It involves looking for a solution. If I go
somewhere, like to a junkyard, my sense is developed
to the extent that I can look at something and have an
idea what it will sound like.
R/S: Whether to take it home or leave it lying there.
Z'EV: Right. But then there's lots ofpieces that I'll get
that will stick around for quite a while before I figure
out what the hell to do with them.
R/S: What new materials have you found recently?
Z'EV: I just got some titanium in Seattle for $3 a
pound-in New York a little piece was $19. It's
extremely light-I'm going to use it in my next show.
It's funny stuff-the way you cut it is, you cut it for a
long, long time and then suddenly you can rip it. It's so
brittle that it breaks.
MAlTY: That's what they use on the new hypervelocity missiles the Army has. There's no explosivejust a big titanium tip. They go, I think, 7-8,000 ft/sec
which is so fast that when they hit they'll go through 2
feet of armor plate. There's so much friction that it
heats up white-hot, and melts through whatever's
there. It goes through that new English tank armor and
sends white-hot metal all over the guys inside. Swell
way to experience a war!
You know who's the leading supplier of titanium in
the world? Red China.
R/S: ... Some pieces only work as part of a greater
Z'EV: Right, you'll have them around until enough
like pieces get together to make an instrument. I have
lots of pieces that have been around for quite a while
that still have not come together, as it were.
The thievery has to do with-basically, Mercury on
one level is the god of learning and communication,
and on the other level is the god of thieves! The thievery is more of an occult situation, even though thievery is a political act on a certain level-it's shaped by
certain socio-economic inequities. You know, taking
from those who have, who can afford it and don't give
it-forcing them to sponsor you, so to speak!
R/S: A lot of them don't even miss it, probably-



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Z'ev in Holland. (Both photos: Wim Riemens)

Z'EV: No, I think a lot of them are starting to miss it,

because since last year, when I came back, a couple of
the places I went to visit that had never had burglar
alarms now had them. So apparently I was making my
presence felt!
But that was something that developed through
childhood-f1rst childhood crime ... subsequent
crimes ... present crimes. Thievery's been completely consistent with me all of my life! Way back.
then I didn't have the rationalization (if that's what
you want to call it) that I do now. But the thefts that I
did, say in 1980, were done as rituals.
R/S, How were they rituals?
Z'EV: What are rituals? They basically have to do
with 3 activities: as an act of devotion, as an act where
you're going to learn something, or as an act where
you're going to effect something. Overall, I don't deal
that much with effect-I'm more interested in learning. It's like a conversation I had with a guy who asked,
Well what pawer is this going to give you? Well, to me
that's ridiculous, because all that does is give you
power on the material plane-which is the last thing
I'm interested in.
There's another level of working with the thievery,
which has to do with the very big premium I put on
risk in the production of works. So I feel that at the
very basic beginning of the process, which means the

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accumulations of the materials which are then going

to get formed into instruments which are then going
to get used in a performance-since the risk is such a
big part in the performance aspect, I try to keep it
consistent throughout the process! You're out there
on the level of getting caught, doing time, as opposed
to just going into a store and buying something. It's
standing up for what you believe in, on a certain level.
And the risk in the performance comes from-well
there's the physical threat. And then the fact that it's
all improvised. The only reason I've been able to do
the amount ofshows that I do and work for the amount
of time I've beenworking is- it's still growing. It might
get to a small plateau, but then it goes someplace else.
If you gettooused to what you're doing, too aware of
what you're doing-it loses its edge. Generally the
more successful an artist or act becomes, the more
diluted the work, because there aren't as many risks
there. They'll have the audience, and the audience
comes expecting what the artist is going to give, and
the artist gets into that because he starts developing a
lifestyle he can't afford or doesn't want to give up. So
then he does whatever is necessary to maintain that
status quo ... and becomes this constantly repetitious
organism, kind of like a tumor
that takes all the
healthy cells and converts them .
R/S: You do performances as Z'ev, Uns, Magneet Bond, Element I-what do you think is a common inspiration?
Z'EV: The real crux of it all is-it's all coming from
this basis of poetry. Various levels of poetry and various levels of language. Poetry encompasses all these
levels, in terms of the occult situation, in terms of the
cabalistic situation, in terms of the more ritual aspect
of Z'ev, in terms of the language-and-sound aspect of
Uns, and in terms of Magneet Bond- more celestial,
and Element L-more elemental, having to do with
tape processes. Having developed a relationship with
phenomenalexperience, all grows out of the basis of
this person basically being a poet ... and all these are
different manifestations. That's like this missing
context-then everything, all the connections
between all of them, can be seen.
The problem with that is: in my "code of ethics" a
poet is something that somebody can say about you
but you can't say about yourself. I wouldn't go around
proclaiming myself as one.
I came to San Francisco with some manuscripts very
idealistically in 1968, and talked to some people at City
Lights. And basically at that time (and I don't know if
it's changed since then) sex and politics was the big
poetry-that's all anybody was interested in publishing. Which wouldn't necessarily be bad, but sexeroticism's a very fine line, especially for
Americans- I don't think Americans are too erotic. I
think mostly they get pornographic, or they don't
really know the difference between pornography and
eroticism. And they don't really get political-just
these kind of hack-political, dogmatic tracts.
RlS: How do you translate your poetry into sound
Z'EV: A general rock'n'roll performance is a social
structure that is thrust upon people, where the music
is only a part, a soundtrack for an experience that the
people know everything about in advance-they're

going to the club, they'll see people that they

know .... It isn't meant to effect any change, it's not
directed at the audience so they'll interpret and create
a new experience from it. There's no basis for further
Whereas the Z'ev performance, at the sound level.
deals with an evocative, experiential mode in the
listener-the person listens and it gives him food for
thought-ideally. There's a tremendous amount of
calligraphic language in the instruments themselves.
If you closed your ears and just watched it, there is a
language almost like puppeteers'-there are these dramas that get played out with these instruments in
terms of defining relationships-whole sagas and dramas get played out. And there's this intuitive feeling I
get that there's an actual caBigraphic language in that,
if it were videotaped and then put into some kind of
computer that took the experience and broke it down
into instrumental elements and their relationships,
there would be a very definite language.
R/S: At the beginning of language, in early writings like
those of Homer, the poet is characterized as a storytellerZ'EV: -where the storyteller, in telling the story, is
like this river that the people get in and swim in, and
get taken along in, and this particular river has things
in it that the people will use as grist for their own mill,
food for their own thought.
R/S: Along with words, you also talk through the drums
you've inventedZ'EV: It's very traditional that the drum is synonymous with communication in most cultures; in Africa
they say I got it on the drum. There is this language to
rhythm where there's a meta-message occurringalmost a mathematical situation with repetition,
refrain, like formulas repeated and transmuted this
way and that way.
RlS: What did you have in mind when you put on a deafening sound tape and aimed that huge bank of lights at the
audience for your On Broadway show?
Z'EV: There were two problems with that-one,
when the sound person put on the tape he was supposed to cut the highs from +12 to -12 and didn't. So
that's why you had these unbelievable high frequencies that drove everybody crazy. They were even
difficult for me to take-because they weren't supposed to be there. The audience who left-I don't
blame them, because it was painful.
The problem with the lights was: although they had
it dark at the beginning, they couldn't take the house
lights out. So the lights were flashing, but it never got
to total black. But that was what was needed, because
the tapes that were being played had a lot of harmelodic rhythm to them-a rhythm that comes not from a
pulse or beat but from the coming in and out ofvarious
tones. And what I was basically aiming for was a real
synaesthetic experience, where the rhythm coming
from these randomly blinking on-and-off lightspeople would have heard that rhythm. The two of
them would have combined to where you would have
been listenin~ to the sound, hearing this rhythmic
differentiation triggered by your eyes taking in pulse/
light patterns. Basically, you'd have these 2 forms of
information that by themselves are too much to handle, either one, but together your processing of them









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would have created this other. But for a variety of two

basic reasons it didn't happen.
That was called the Z'ev show even though it was
really an Element L/Magneet Bond show. So people
came expecting to see rev play. That was really the
first time I had dealt with the audience's expectationwhere people were real aggravated that I wasn't playing. Even though I was presenting them with
information (which is all that they should expect), it
wasn't the information they wanted to see. Then you
get into this "What right does the audience have to
expeet?" question. P.I.L. dealt with this quite a bitthey were like a one-line joke in that that was the most
important thing for them: tkaling with the audience's
R/S: What do you think you have in common with, say, Mark
Pauline, Non, Throbbing Gristle or johanna Went?
Z'EV: The concept of being a cultural subversive, a
cultural revolutionary-more the concept of being a
cultural subversive. Rather than some "postindustrial" context. A perfect metaphor being TG, at
their shows, putting huge mirrors on stage so the
audience would be looking at themselves. It's like
that-where you're holding up this mirror to people,
dealing within this sphere while breaking as many
rules as it's possible to break, and you're trying to
educate that audience as much as possible, and
empower that audience. I think most of the people
involved would be just as happy for the audience to get
out of their apathy and start doing something.
In America, people have just been so demoralized to
their own power to where they don't think their voice
Z'ev. (Two photos: Paula Court)

has any say.... so they just become this consumer of

whatever Nixon, Reagan, television show, pop band,
new wave is around.
R!S: Have you ever considered yourself in the contextof, say,
those master drummers of Burundi?

Z'EV: I've studied ethnomusicology ... but I wouldn't

want to caU myself a master drummer. Most of those
situations where there is a master drummer-those
are drumming systems where the drumming is
directly related to either ritual use or communicational use, not music per se. And because that's also
where I'm coming from, my performance has evolved
along the same levels. Like, some drummers are somewhat annoyed by it because it's so simple. In most
western drumming like in jazz or rock, there are these
very nifty little patterns with a lot of fast techniquelike trying to squeeze as many notes into a given space
as is possible. Myself, I'm always trying to playas little
as possible, so that the effect of what you're doing can
actually sink in.
R/S: How much of what you're doing are you consciously
aware of while you're drumming?
Z'EV: At the On Broadway, the f'U'St piece I did was

about 12 minutes. I was consciously aware for maybe 3

or4 ofthose minutes, and the rest ofthe time there was
this level where I would have no idea what I was actually playing. Because you get a basic groove, as itwere,
and then you let that groove groove itself... show
itself. And that's so the actual message of it can
appear ... the process of pure form.
In the summer of '80 I was working with a Haitian
man, and learned quite a bit from him toward underUNS Performance at Mabuhay. (Photo: Marion Gray)



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you call an energy down, you have to be able to d e a l .

with it. And if you're doing shows night after night, for
example, you have to be very centered, otherwise the
energy wiU not leave. And so I'd walk off stage and I
would not be me anymore.
R/S: You mean an entity would take you over?
Z'EV: Yeah ... basically. I can deal with that in pres~~:;.':'~
cribed situations, but as a general performance mode
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that's still a few years away before I would attempt it.
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R/S: That's one risk you don't want to try!
Z'EV: Yeah, because it's foolish . .. so it's not worth it.
Also, on a certain level there's not really any point,
because it's almost like an abuse. Because they're not
going to be fed by anything other than me in that
situation-none of the people in the audience are
going to participate ....
For example, I have very definite plans in mind for a
trip through Western Africa, performing, and there I
I'll use both of them in a show simultaneously so
will do it because there is where these energies come
there'll be these overlaps. As source material. I think
from. So it would make real sense, because the people
some soundtracks can be very good.
in the audience would recognize those energies and
The soundtrack to Raging Bull was very interesting.
pay those energies proper respect, as it were.
The dialogue was so real it was amazing. De Niro plays
R/S: It seems Hitler managed to pull off mass trance rituals
this absolutely insane character who'd got it in his
mind that his brother had fucked his wife. And his
Z'EV: Yes. but number one- there would be extreme
brother wouldn't admit it; he said, "I'm not going to
amounts of conjurations, before. during and after his
answer you, it's a stupid question." That fed de Niro.
big rallies. Number two, he was using his hands- the who was saying, "Well ifyou're not going to answer me
people did not spontaneously arrive at it, it was a form
it must be true." His brother said, "Fuck You!" and left.
of mass hypnotism he was using. He put the image in Then de Niro got on his wife about it and his wife said,
the people. Still, it's outside the range of 99.99 percent "OK! I fucked your brother! Not only that, I sucked his
of humanity to be able to do that to 75-100,000 people.
cockl" He said, "You sucked his cock?" She said, "Yeah,
I'm sure that, at times, all those 100,000 people were
I sucked his cock, and not only that, he's got a bigger
polarized. But it wasn't Hitler who was doing it, Hitler cock than you." So de Niro goes and beats the shit out
was manifesting a particular type of energy which did of his brother. It's just this amazing portrayal of this
it. It's not within the capability of a person to do it, it is absolutely insane, paranoid person who has his mind
made up and the more you try to tell themwithin the capability of non-material energies to do
such things ... coming from a certain trance
R/S: But how does this tie into soundtracks?
Z'EV: Well, there is a lot of conversation, and I really
R/S: ...What soundtracks do you like? And why?
like that: conversation as sound. Then there's the fight
Z'EV: I think in the psychedelic era, a lot of people
scenes, and the fight scenes that are done in slow
went to seeJulietoftheSpirifs-thatwas a very favorite
motion have real time sound-very physical sounds.
psychedelic film. And so a lot of people then would
The amount of subliminal information that comes
buy the record. For a lot of people of a certain age that in through soundtracks-I was watching a horror
might have been a crucial movie in terms of the movie with my niece and nephew and they started
getting scared. I walked over and turned the sound
I liked The Good, The Bad and the Ugly because
down and showed them that if they just watched it, it
... there was a segment where this guy was being tor- wasn't scary what they were seeing- it was the sound
tured. It was in a prisoner-of-war camp in the CivilWar, that was scary. So for most horror tllms, the soundtrack
and to cover the sound they had this prisoner's band is the searlest element-ifyou take out the sound, they
playing. So you'd hear this Ub! Ub! of this guy being lose 75% of their impact.
Basically what happens is, if you're listening to a
beat up during this very pastoral music, and then the
bandleader would go, More feeling! Then there were sound, you sub-vocalize-your vocal chords follow
tremendous amounts of explosions and gunshots-it while you're listening to music ... which is why sudwas a very dense soundtrack, they got very carried den changes in pitch are so emotional, causing a physical change in you because you don't realize that
You'd have this one track of all the bird sounds in you're like singing along as it were with whatever it is.






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When the pitch changes suddenly, your vocal chords

freak out, causing this shock. So, a tremendous
amount of the manipulation of the audience comes
from the soundtrack. Also, because you're watching
what's going on, you're not concentrating as much on
what you're listening to, so-that's why so many pop
records have a telephone bell pushed way back in the
mix, because a telephone in this culture gets someone's attention immediately. Not only that, but-EilO
used on a record the clinking of car keys. Try it sometime the next time you have a lot of people over-get
your car keys and clink 'em around. Everyone will
leave! Maybe not in San Francisco or NewYork, but you
do it in LA or any suburban setting where people drive
a lot, and the sound of keys will get people to leave.
People who are using sound to affect people's subconscious, trying to create a real effect within the
person, are interested in soundtracks. And for me the
soundtrack isn't just the music, it's also the dialogue,
all the effects that are used. I think of them not as an
end in themselves. They are built to get an actual
psychological effect in an audience. But there are very
few I would say I like, on their own ....
R/S: You've read the 2 volumes of Her-Bak about Egyptian
Z'EV: They're really about past-life recall even
though they're works of fiction. Agricultural societies
Z'ev at On Broadway, San Francisco 1982. (Photo: Erich Muelleri

being linked up to the earth possibly are more civilized than mechanical societies.
R!S: Why?
Z'EV: Mechanical societies are man building these
machines which are extensions of himself. If
machines could write about man, man would be a god
to these machines. Or, machines could become man's
gods. Now with computers around, some people think
of themselves as computers. The computers could be
as significant to man as the Industrial Revolution was.
Which has to do with the metaphors that people think
of and deal with in themselves having to do with the
machines they're creating.
But in an agricultural society you're dealing with the
basic myth of dying and rebirth-winter and spring.
Which may make people more civilized in their dealings with each other ....
R/S: Because of the underlying recognition of a common
fate of death?
Z'EV: More an outlook like, you look at a plant, watch
it develop and-in everything you see the divine.
R/S: Can you summarize the value you've gotten from reading books by Aleister Crowley?
Z'EV: I got the most use out of 777-the list of correspondences, and his number dictionary which was the
only one you could buy-now Llewelleyn's got a
number dictionary out, I think it's called a Cabalistic
Dictionary. Basically it's a copy of Crowley's plus more
material like names of angels. In terms ofrituals, I was
never involved in any rituals that he was specifically
dealing with, which were basically Egyptian rituals.
I saw some of the Psychic Television videos of David
Tibet obviously involved in some ritual, and I don't
know-I think if you did a real ritual nothing would
show up on the videotape! Or, they might be working
on some form of video ritual but it seems like a new
form of carried-awayness!
One of Crowley's overall meta-perspective roles was
on a large scale imding and publishing lots of
information-there were lawsuits and court cases
about this, brought about by The Golden Dawn. The
Golden Dawn was an upper-class, very racist, very elitist group. Crowley was appalled by them socially, and
by the fact they were elitist. His whole contention, in
Magick in Theory and Practice, was that anyone can
do it, and that this was the western path. And if you in
fact do the exercises in Magick in Theory and Practice, eventually you would get your concentration and
attention developed to the point where you would be
able to capitalize on your imagination. And when
you're able to capitalize on your imagination ... !
What is referred to as imagination is your overlap
with this other world. When you have your concentration to such a point that you start imagining, then you
can totally get into this imaginary world. At that point
you pick up your spirit guides. When you do in fact pick
up your spirit guides, then you're fine. Then you can
progress on certain levels.
But there's certain rituals you just can't get in a book.
You have to have a teacher in a physical body correcting your ritual, because you can't know you're doing it
right yourself, because you've never seen anyone do it
right. And if you're not doing it right-it's not that it
doesn't work-you do create a doorway between the






spirit world and this world, but if your protection isn't

together then what ends up happening can be basically what happened to Crowley in India. He was getting into evocations of forces that were actually more
powerful than he was able to maintain a defense
against, so he was attached, and that led to his senility.
R/S: What was he attached by'
Z'IN: Basically a disembodied psycWc vampire.
There's bodied psychic vampires-people who get
involved in relationsWps with people and eat up all
their psycWc energy. Then you have a disembodied
psycWc vampire who attaches and just sucks up all the
life energy.
Crowley consciously built up a stereotype of "the
world's most evil man" as a type of fence around the
law. So that a person had to be of a certain sophistication to not be intimidated by that facade and go after it
anyway. But Crowley was really, on some levels, a very
moral person, and on some levels a deeply religious
person-note the Hymns to the Star Goddess and The
Vision and The Voice. It's not possible for this person
to be "the world's most evil man"!
R/S: What do you think Crowley achieved with his Abbey of
Z'IN: I don't know. Possibly his notion that all magical ritual is phallic in nature! I don't know. But, his
system of ceremonial magic isn't mine ....
If you want to affect things on the physical plane, use
voodoo. And western ceremonial black magic, put up
against a South American orAfrican black magician- I
don't think it would hold up, or hold a candle. There
are some people known as the Mayomberos; they're
the most evil people alive on that level, although
there's probably some Tibetans as well.
In the West there may be 15 or 20 real ceremonial
magicians left-if that many. But I don't think there's
been a western magician who could handle a malignant spirit for centuries. Some of the ones involved
with the Nazis may possibly have been closepossibly. But obviously they weren't close enough, or
the outcome ofWWII would have been different. The
Nazis had cults from Tibet working with them, etc, but
obviously there was only so much they could do.
The tWng about voodoo and black magic is-when
the English came into Haiti, all the voodoo, gris-gris
and magic against them didn't matter. The English
troops just walked right past all this stuff that should
have scared the sWt out of any normal human
beings- they did not even see it, and theywiped out all
the camps and cleaned out the mountains. It just went
right over their heads. So on a certain level, ignorance
is a terrific protection.
The thing is, if you're having a fight with someone
and you're using magic but they have a gun, there's no
hocus-pocus that's going to keep that bullet from going
through you! But on the other hand, if you could find
one of these Mayomberos, you probably could kill
somebody efficiently, magically. Maybe give them a
heart attack with acute anxiety.
The biggest protection somebody can have is the
knowledge that somebody else is trying to do magic
against them. That's the opposite situation, where
ignorance is not protection. That cuts down the efficiency tremendously-just the fact that you know ....


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"Process in the pursuit of

the performance of pure form"


What things were/is more important than what things
We're talking perfection-if you don't gamble/you can't
Be prepared. Intention draws attention.
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing.
Honesty's the best policy.
A place for everything/and everything in its place.
Open doors/don't close them.
LEARNING = LIVING: the learning of a lesson is the
living of that lesson.
The Axiom "As Above/So Below" is evidenced in the
Basic Occult Ritual of all peoples: THE FERTILITY RITE;
(comprising the 4 WORLDS of the OCCULT, based on an
ordering of vibrational magnitude).
The INTENT of any individual ritual is to replicate the
ARCHETYPICAL PROCESS, influencing the specific
sphere of activity in question. INFLUX is the metaphor for
the result of a successful ritual. At times of INFLUX the
worlds are united.
PROCESS is THE Vehicle for the source and protection
of experiential information/influx-situations/manifestations as performance (and yes, even entertainment)
eliminating the need to create subjectively. Choosing
structures from the body of invocation/evocational ritual
practice and establishing an integration/integrity within
one's material existence on the same order and with the
same correspondence that occult existence utilizes in its
relationship with divine existence.
(purifying and consecrating the vessel) to
translate/transpose this into a/the performance context;
DOING not THINKING: invoking/evoking, by analogy, a
"model" on the physical plane ofthe archetypical process,
channeling "thought-form/energy /action(s)" into
ASCETIC ANALOGIES. Consider spiritual energy as a
light source in a room which is separated in two by a
curtain. The curtain is the ego-the light Y, spirit, the dark
y, body-world. The dynamic INFLUX is created by the
diminishing of the ego/curtain.
physical MASS diminishes in the physical FORM it is
replaced/replenished by spiritual MASS.

















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Born in Los Angeles, CA and given 2 names:
Stefan Joel Weisser and Sha'ul Z'ev. Prior to
1978 all works were by Stefan Weisser. In
1978 began using different names to signify
different creative persona, briefly as follows:
Stefan Weisser does audio-visual-textual poetics. Yael did percussion musics 1977-78.
Sha'ul Z'ev does cabalistic studies. Sha'ul does
musics for organ and tape. When anglicized as
Saul Zev does words & voice forthe band UNS.
Z'ev is the name for kinetic movement &
musics-concussion musics, movements &
installations. UNS is a band producing "Iowtech" rhythms and rants (the vocalist's name is
Saul Zev); the band solo is Magneet Bond. Element L Musics is the name for studio tape percussion musics and stereo-sonics-it will also
be the name of an ensemble utilizing
transducer-amplified sculptures. Rax Wen' is a
composite of Z'ev percussion used in recording
plus Saul Zev (live performance vocalist plus
1957. Studied music.
1963-66. In a variety of rock'n'roll bands in
1966-69. Leading a band, Ariel, with Carl
Stone (kybds & electronics). James Stewart
(bass & vocals). Band broke up after negotiations with Frank Zappa's Bizarre Records.
1969-75. Studied Ewe (pronounced A-way.
Ghana tribal) music with Seth & Alfred Cadzekpo. Stopped playing music & studied concrete poetry with Emmett Williams.
1975. Moved to Bay Area. did poetry pieces &
work by Stefan Weisser. Formed Cellar M with
Naut & Rex from R&N and Will Jackson.
1976-77. Cellar M broke up. Band TO
started with Will Jackson. Produced record, performed West Coast & went to Japan. TO broke
up. At La Mamelle Stefan Weisser did first solo
percussion show Aug 28, 1977.
1978. Z'ev performed monthly at Fort
Mason. and at Mabuhay from March on as Yael
and from Sept on as Z'ev.
1979. Returned to l.A. Worked with Johanna
Went. October. for first time went to East
Coast-played Boston. R.I" NYC, NJ.
1980. West Coast. April-May went to NYC
with Non & Johanna Went. Aug, played with
DNA at Berkeley Square, then NYC & Europe.
Sept. did show with R&N at The Compound.
1981. Feb 8, London show with Throbbing
Gristle, Clock OVA, Cabaret Voltaire and Non.
Feb 12, 1981, Savoy Tivoli Z'ev & Uns show
(this will be released on Subterranean). Thru
Dec, peformed in Holland, Belgium, Sweden,
Germany, Austria, England.
1982. Jan-Feb, West Coast. Mar-Apr,
France, Holland, Germany. May, NYC. JuneNov, Europe, including June Documenta show
in Kassel. Germany and Oct Final Academy
show in London.
1983. January, video & sound work with
R&N. Uns collaboration with Target Video.
Initial performances of Element L Musics,
beginning presentations of Z'ev as movement.
Feb-Mar, Germany & Holland. Apr-May, NYC.
1984. Re-concentration on American


Race semitic, height 5'8", weight 135.
Father's occupation: Optometrist. Mother's
occupation: Perception and learning disabilities. One sister: Faryl, born 1949.
Schools attended: Chandler Elementary, Mulholland Jr High, Birmingham High, Rexford
High, California Institute of the Arts (6 mos).

Childhood obsessions: clouds and dark

places. Present obsession: obsession.
Present collections: Books, masks, Ritual
Objects in general. metal and plastic objects,
sonic data, cassette conversations.
Childhood pets: Baron (Weimaraner), Kahara
(cat-17 years old now).
Favorite Childhood TV show: 20th Century
with Walter Cronkite. After childhood no TV
ever owned.
Favorite childhood expeditions: Dry gulches.
First important sexual experience: seeing aunt
naked at age 17.
Present relationship: Fr. Dr. Dorothea FranckOberaspach.
Present social scene: As little as possible.
Ideal household: metal shop, tape/ sound studio, library, 1 large "living" room.
Job history: cleaning apartments, laying
carpet, furniture delivery, offset printing, managing retail store, archaeological digs, musician, hospital dishwasher, rebuilding
alternators, cook & housekeeper, "prescribing"
at occult shop, counseling J.D.'s, hospital
cafeteria, buying and selling clothes.
Marketable occupational skills: Musician,
rough carpentry, plumbing, managerial (retail).
Favorite foreign country: none yet, though
Japan heads list.
Drug history: addictions to methamphetamine, alcohol, tobacco, caffein, cocaine, LSD,
barbiturates, marijuana. At one time or another
most every drug taken at least once. Near-fatal
overdose of Belladonna at age 16. Drug use
ascribed to Piscean nature.
Medical history: chronic pneumonia since
1963. Vocal chord scraping; no talking for 3
months (1974).
Sleep history: Sometimes insomnia, sometimes awake 30-40 hrs then sleep 12-18; sometimes sleep 20-48 hrs. Dream as often as
possible; dreams are critically important. Sleep
5/6AM to 10AM-2PM.
Favorite foods: spicy. Mineral waters. Hate
"health" foods. Prefer European eating habits.
Clothes: emphasis on function. Sometimes
wear clothing of own design.
Actual library: large sci-fi, large literature,
large occult and metaphysical.
Current projects: Finishing compilation of
numerical dictionary. A variety of works with Fr.
Dr. Dorothea Franck-Oberaspach (chairperson
Dept of Rhetoric and Poetics, University of
A'dam, Netherlands) in Ethnomethodology,
Socio-linguistics, Conversational Analysis, and
Comparative Religion. Plus other projects.

-SALTS OF HEAVY METALS (Lust/Unlustout of print)
RELATIONS (Backstreet Records-out of
AUF/UIT (V> of 7" 45, Kremlin)
WIPE OUT (V> of 7" 45, Fetish)
-SHAKE RATTLE & ROLL (video, Fetish Mail
Orders, 10 Martello St, London E8 England)
ZONES (1,4 4x4 LP, Subterranean)
-F.F.F. (LP, Subterranean)
-3 FOR 3 (V> of LP, Zensor)
Knobel, Camphansenstr 8, 4000 Dusseldorf
W Germany)

MUSICS: an orchestral continuum built from
the following form and content:

FORM: tuned metal constructions/assemblages (modular compositional units in their own

right), using 2 modes of employment: 1)
percussive-'striking.' specific actions and 2)
'shaking apart,' general actions.
CONTENT: catacoustics (the study of
reflected sound for the production of acoustic
phenomena) AND:
NOISE: (sound you don't like) with the intent
to expand the range of sounds people like,
hence consider musical. ("The instruments are
collections of objects ... strung together on
ropes and swung ... at varying speeds and directions to produce a fairly astonishing range of
pitches and timbres" -NY Rocker, JulyAug/1980).
MOVEM ENTS: (" ... the nature of his selfdesigned instruments dictates almost as much
emphasis on dance as on music. And the
moves ... to manipulate the instruments, are for
grace and athleticism ... strong stuff."-NY
Rocker, July-Aug/1980).
This physical motion of performer and instrument alike establishes a unification of sonic and
visual elements into a dance/language of 'configuration.' In effect, a movement and the sound
of the movement forming a discreet unit; that
unit in relationship to all other such units forms
these configurations which unfold in a drama of
elemental energies.


ARCHIVES: Archives of California Art, Oakland Museum. Performance Proposal File, l.A.
County Museum of Art. La Mamelle Inc Contemporary Art Archives. Archive Small Press
and Communication, Belgium. Artist Book Collection, Otis Art Institute.
La Mamelle #1 & #2. Art Contemporary #2.
Imagezine #3. Fanache. Synapse. Intermedia.
Dumb Ox. Contexts (limited edition). Videozine #3.
Contemporary Publications. Audio Editions
(Union Gallery, CSUSJ). Blub Krad (l.A. Free
Music Society).
Long Beach. 1973, Pierce Jr College (l.A.).
1974, UC Santa Barbara, Books Etc (l.A.).
1975,l.A.I.C.A., La Mamelle, Museum of Conceptual Art, Project Artaud. 1976, Beyond
Baroque Foundation, Harmonia, Theatre Vanguard (Long Beach), Institute of Dance and
Experimental Art (l.A.). 1977, Word Works
(San Jose). 1978, SF Art Institute, Union
Gallery (CSUSJ), Works (SJ), Fort Mason Center, Otis Art Institute, Vanguard Gallery (l.A.),
Peace Pagoda Plaza (S.F.).
ONE PERSON: Beyond Baroque Foundation,
Jan 1976. GROUP: CSU (Sacramento), La
Mamelle (S.F.), Pierce Jr College (l.A.),
And/Or (Seattle), Galerie Kontak (Antwerp),
Academy (Ghent), Galerie Posada (Brussels),
Rhode Island School of Design, Brown University, The Sculpture Center (Australia), Apropos
Gallery (Switzerland), Union Gallery (CSUSJ).
KPOO (S.F.), KCSB (Santa Barbara).


.~ ~ ~. ~:">--a"





AUDIO: 'Poextensions'-"pure poetry"

compositions for massed voices using tape
replay and integrating the resonance, reflection, and phase relations of acoustic phenomena to create a universal, archetypical VOICE
producing lingual, spacial "fields."
VISUAL: from "context" ("the weaving
together of language"-Oxford English Dictionary), taken literally as the actual, physical,
weaving of alphabetical representations. transforming them into glyphic, pictorial "fields."
TEXTUAL: images are chosen for their subjective. associative potential and are combined
in varying relationships. which themselves
carry a train of associations. This provides a
"oom" (woof & warp = image & relationship)
for the reader to "weave" their own "history"
on. "History" refers to the narrative outcome
of 2 elements: 1) the image associations combined/juxtaposed with the relationship associations, and 2) the meaning which arises from
the totality of these individual combinations
and juxtapositions. This process then can
extend the notion of "reading" towards that of
"sounding" (i.e. sounding the depths).

White Goddess/Robert Graves

Sweet Hearts/Emmett Williams
Valentine for Noel/E Williams
Collected Works of Emmett Williams
(New Directions)
Divine Pymander/tr J. Everard
800k of Enoch/tr R. Laurence
Sacred Mysteries Among the Mayas
& Quiches/Augustus le Plongeon
Ancient Fragments/I P Cory
Theoretical Arithmetic of the
Pythagoreans/T Taylor
Theon of Smyrna/tr R&D Lawlor
Qabbalah-Philosophical Writings of
Dictionary of Angels/G Davidson
Holy Kaballah/ A E Waite
777/ Aleister Crowley
Book of Thoth/ Aleister Crowley
Fragments of a Faith Forgotten/Mead
The Way of God/ M luzzatto
Bion Experiments/Wilhelm Reich
The Murder of Christ/W Reich
The Function of the Orgasm/W Reich
Character Analysis/W Reich
Eye of the Cyclone/John lilly
Programming & Metaprogramming the
Human Biocomputer/John lilly
Remarks on Colour/Wittgenstein
Collected Works/Shakespeare
Ethics of the Fathers/Philip Blackman
The Self & The Brain/Popper & Eccles
Interaction Rituals/Goffman
Behavior in Public Places/Goffman
Jewish Magic & Superstition/
Notebooks of leonardo da Vinci
Egyptian Book of the Dead
Tibetan Book of the Dead
The First Sex/Elisabb~h G Davis
On the Sensations of Tone/Helmholtz
Recognitions/W Gaddis
JR/W Gaddis
How Writing is Written/G Stein
Making of Americans/G Stein
Geography & Plays/G Stein
lucy Church Amiably/G Stein
Calculus of Variation/D Di Prima
Collected Poems/Kenneth Patchen
Journal of Albion Moonlight
Sleepers Awake/Kenneth Patchen
9 Ways of Bon (Shambhala)
Book of 5 Rings/Musashi
The Pronouns/J Maclow
Secret Doctrine/H P Blavatsky
Isis Unveiled/H P Blavatsky
Hebraic Tongue Restored/
Fabre d'Olivet
Golden Verses of Pythagoras/
Fabre d'Olivet
Adam & the Kabalistic Tree/levi
Meditation & The Bible/ Areya Kaplan
Meditation & The Kabalah/ A Kaplan
Book of Tokens/Paul Foster Case
Sefer Yetzirah/tr P Mordell


-INSTill (Y. of 4x4 lP, Subterranean)
-IMAGEZINE #3 (Con-Arts Press, PO Box
3123 Rincon Annex, San Francisco
-AUDIOZINE #1 & #2 (Con-Arts Press)

1980. FEBRUARY: 1st performance at The
Farm. Then performances at Mabuhay, Aldo's.
MARCH: Show with Factrix, Non, Mark Pauline at Studio Eremos, Project Artaud. Then
East Coast Tour-all equipment stolen in NYC.
1981. FEBR UARY: Savoy Tivoli show with
1982. Performances in NYC (Public Theater),
Holland, Zurich (Music Out of Control Festival),
london (Final Academy).

-MOTHER TONGUE (lP, Subterranean, 577
Valencia, San Francisco CA 94110)
-LIFE SENTENCE (cassette, Subterranean)
-LIVE AT TARGET ('I, of lP, Subterranean
-LIVE AT TARGET ('.4 of Video by Target, 678 S
Van Ness, San Francisco CA 94110)
-SAVE WHAT? (V> of cassette, Kremlin
Records, c/o Dommelstrt. 2, Eindhoven
5611 CK Netherlands)
-THE PAST 2 DAYS (V> of lP, Zensor Records, Beilzigerstrs 23, 1000 Berlin 62
W Germany)
-SAYS (% of 4x4 lP, Subterranean)

-V> of 7" 45 (Kremlin 002)
- V> of 7" 45 (Fetish FE 13)
- '/. of 4x4 lP (Subterranean)

Jewish Mystical Testimonies/

ed l Jacobs
Her-Bak: living Face of Ancient
Egypt/lsha Schwaller de lubicz
Her-Bak: Egyptian Initiate/
Isha Schwaller de lubicz
The Opening of the Way/
R A Schwaller de lubicz
Blast Power & Ballistics/
Jack lindsay
Dada Painters & Poets/
ed R Motherwell & B Karpel
Futurist Manifestos/ed Umberto Apollonio
Adventures in the Skin Trade/
Dylan Thomas
The Sword of Gnosis/ed Needleman
Stand on Zanzibar/John Brunner
Dosadi Experiment/Frank Herbert
Whipping Star/Frank Herbert
Short Stories/Philip K Dick

Performance/Nicholas Roeg
Pound/Robert Downey
Greasers Palace/ "
Invasion of the Body Snatchers
(1956 Don Siegel version)
Golddigger Series/Busby Berkeley
(esp lullaby on Broadway. &
We're In The Money in pig latin)
Stage Door/Gregory La Cava
In the Realm of the Senses/Oshima
Kwaidan/Misuki Kobayashi
Kuroneko/Kaneto Shindo
Werewolf of london/Henry Hull
Night Porter/liliana Cavani
Pork Chop Hill/lewis Milestone
Persona/lngmar Bergman
Hour of the Wolf/I Bergman
Cries & Whispers/I Bergman
Woman Under The Influence/
John Cassavetes
Husbands/J Cassavetes
Coconuts/Marx Bros
Night at the Opera/Marx Bros
Horsefeathers/Marx Bros
Duck Soup/Marx Bros
Animal Crackers/Marx Bros

Greatest Hits/Otis Redding
By Tim Buckley:
Goodbye & Hello
Star Sailor
Happy Sad
Welcome to lA
Sun, Moon & Herbs/Dr John
Gris-Gris/Dr John
American Indian Anthology
(In fact, most Everest lPs)
Tibetan, Balinese, Javanese &
African lPs (on Nonesuch label)
Astral Weeks/Van Morrison
Highway 61 /Bob Dylan
CountrylTracy Nelson
love like Anthrax/Gang of Four
Sister Ray/Velvet Underground
Velvet Underground/V U
Salisbury Hill/Peter Gabriel
Trout Mask Replica/Capt Beefheart


.,~: .~;/.-~.~~.~~~.:~.:
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:):Fi.>;: .'.~>

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.. ~ :,. ~., II


Above photo: Siegfried. Previous pages: serial photos by Peggy Photo; large photo by Ana Barrado.
All Johanna Went serial photographs by Peggy Photo.

, ...... .;>.~. ': ..~: ~~..

. . ...... .. ..:;..

.. "


I n Seattle, Johanna Went grew up in a housing

project; it would have been easy to succumb to her poor
white trash milieu and become a welfare mother with
five children, A chance 1974 encounter with theater
innovator Tom Murrin resulted in several years' involvement in street theater, including a 1978 tour of
Europe and America. In the summer of 1979 she did her
first solo show at the Hong Kong Cafe in Los Angeles.
Out of dreams and endless foraging in thrift stores
and garbage bins, Johanna has created by sewing, gluing, collaging, and painting, the vivid props and dolls
for her shows-all of which involve sex, food, liquids,
meat, meat by-products, and destruction. The constant
theme in her shows is transjormation-from birth (or
abortion) to death .. '.'
Set against a background of very loud noise/rhythm,
Johanna's show is more a furiously energetiC trancestate than the performance of a rational being. Then
again, this is not real time - a slow-motion drug would
be needed to comprehend all the images, symbols,
details, and gestures crammed into the 15 or 20 minutes of a Johanna Went show. Definitely not for the
cleanliness-and-order set, this is sheer fun and black
humor masquerading as modern art ....
Johanna Went has a 45 available on Boyd Rice's
Graybeat Records, Slave Beyond The Grave/NO UNO,
and a new album, Hyena . ...

RIS: How do you prepare for each show? I get the impression it takes months ....
JOHANNA: It doesn't take that long. It depends. I
gather up a lot ofstuff, things, junk, articles, just items.
You know: styrofoam, plastic, cardboard, clothes,
shoes, food things-anything you can think of. Kotex,
sandwiches, tools-anything. And then I just kind of
think about different things: what I dream about, what
I see everyday, or somebody I'll be fascinated with,
and somehow I'll use them in my show. Or a movie
that I saw-all these kinds of things affect me.
And then when I put together my show, I try not to
think a lot. I just glue things together and paint things
and make things look like something that I like! Then I
take all of these things to where I'm going to do a
show, and the musicians come and play whatever it is
they want to play, and then I sing anything that comes
out of my mouth. There's lots of blood and messy
things and then I fall down and it's all over.
Rls: Well, you pay a lot of attention to details-I remember
at one show, you had a little naked baby doll (it was just a
small part of your costume)-you couldn't even really see it
across the stage, yet you'd glued pubic hair on it.
JOHANNA: You saw it! That was just a little joke for
myself. I like to give myself little jokes; I like to entertain myself.
Rls: At the On Broadway show, you became a huge Statue of
Uberty... that suddenly started to spew blood all over the
audienceJOHANNA: That was a really hard show for meRls: Oh yes, your sister had suddenly died.
JOHANNA: I'd made the Statue of Liberty, the whole
costume, and when I brought it up to San Francisco I
asked Mark Pauline if he could do something to it to
make it spit blood. He hooked up this pump and it was
really great-I wasn't sure if it was going to work and
then all of a sudden it started squirting blood into the
audience- I couldn't believe it. It worked really good!
Just what I wanted.




.: ".-:./A.:"';':'

R!S: I got some on my coat and it wouldn't come off Was it

stage blood?
JOHANNA: It's a secret old family recipe. Sometimes
if you wash things it comes out but sometimes it
doesn't. I can't help it. One time somebody asked me
to pay their cleaning bill, but I just said Fuck you.

If I don't do shows for awhile I get

weird, I get crazy, I get strange and I
know that I need to do a show ....
R!S: What was the most extreme performance you ever did?
JOHANNA: Most extreme? I don't know-I used to do
a lot of street performances that in a way were more
extreme than what I do now, just because ofthe different environments. Probably the most extreme-at
least the one that everybody always talks about-was
when I did a performance with a dead cat. Probably
because the cat was dead and people were upset
because they thought I killed it. Which I didn't-I do
not kiU cats. But I don't know, because I have trouble
remembering performances ....
R/S: Because you kind of go into a trance during them?
JOHANNA: Right after the performances I can't
remember anything, and then I ask what happenedpeople tell me different things that happened Sometimes when I clean up the stuff I can kind of remember. It's really hard to remember.
R!S: Well, what happened with the dead cat on stage?
JOHANNA: It was on a really small stage at Vinyl
Fetish (an L.A. record store) when they first opened
There were a lot of people packed into such a small
area so they had to really look at it.
R/S: They were forced to be really close to youJOHANNA: I just poked it a little bitwith a knife-you
know, threw it around a little bit. I didn't kill it, it died a
natural cat death.
R/S: How many abortions have you had?
JOHANNA: What? This month? I've had a few.
R/S: At the On Broadway show you had a birth.
JOHANNA: It was a baby devil-it came out of the
devil; that wasn't me. The devil gave birth to the baby
devil. He was the devil sleeping in his bed, and he
woke up-he had a bad stomach ache-there was a
baby inside ofhis stomach. What a surprise, right? And
the baby had a whole bunch of stuff over him-

afterbirth, or something. It was silly, wasn't it? I can't

stand the devil-so silly-looking with those horns.
R/S: ...What's your latest dream?
JOHANNA: I just recently dreamed that my friendsee, I've been working 2 jobs recently.
R/S: Why, for money?
JOHANNA: Yeah, I'm really broke. Long hours-I
leave one job and go to the other job. For a long time
I've been working 7 days a week, and it's really been
getting to me-I've been getting crazy. But it's really
good for me because I need to keep busy because I've
just been really unhappy-I've just been depressed
about my sister. You know those things take a long
time to get over, so I thought I should work.
Anyway, I had this dream that my friend called me
up and said, ':Johanna! I got this great job for you! Well,
it's not a very good job but it pays good." So I meet her
downtown ... in the sewers, but the sewers are all
done up real gothic-looking like a vampire would live
there. And then she gives me this bat ... and these rats
come running out of this hole and we have to bash
them with the bat. I started laughing, and she said,
"Well, it's not such a great job but it pays pretty good"
So then we're bashing all these rats and all ofa sudden
this little rat comes up and she says, "Oh look at this
one, it's so cute!" and I say, "Mary, you have to kiU itl"
and she says, "No no no, I don't want to kill it." "Come
on Mary." "No no, I don't want to kill it." So I go chasing
after the rat and she goes chasing after me and we go
down this long, long ways and all of a sudden we hear
this door shut-SLAM! And then we realize that we
have to stay there until we kill all the rats. I woke up
laughing; I thought it was really funny. But I think it
was from working too many hours.
R/S: What was your favorite costume at the Ed Mock show?
JOHANNA: There was this costume that I never got to
see again. I had this yellow hat with all these yellow
flowers on top, with some kind of veil on it. It looked
like some weird missionary. Then I had this yellow
dress that had this black stuff on it-it had these
glasses that went around and around and around. It
was all yellow, yellow, yellow. The costume got
wrecked and I threw it away-that was the only time I
ever wore it. If somebody has a picture of it I'd like to
see it again.
R/S: How many costumes did you get ready for your last


JOHANNA: My last show I think I had 9 costumes. I

had my wedding costume with the 2 faces, 2 white
faces one on top ofthe other, and then it had a veil and
a plastic wedding-cake decoration like a bride-andgroom only it was a devil. Then there was the wedding
dress with bloody kotexes on it, and a big yellow
kind-of face in the middle of it. Then it had two little
plastic tits on the outside and- Mark Pauline sent me a
really pretty color picture where I'm holding the baby
devil with all this red stuff coming out of my mouth.
That was one of my favorite costumes.
Then I made a costume that was black with a whole
bunch ofwhite faces on it, with blood on them. Then it
had black curly hair, with voodoo dolls sticking out of
the faces.
The one with the baby doll with the pubic hair on
it-I can't even describe it. It was kind of a red shiny
vest with a long arm that sticks out ofthe head, that has
some kind of yarn on it, and has a hand on it, and you
can kind of hold the hand and dance with it if you
want. And it has a purple face with little plastic yellow
circles around the eyes and the mouth. It looks to me
like an African kind of costume. I just like it because
you can dance with yourselfwhen you wear it. You can
hold the hand and dance around
I like anything that's little and then looks really big.
I like things that take on a life of their own, that
move by themselves, that seem to have some kind of
spirit to them. And that change shape.

I didn't kill it, it died

a natural cat death.
My record's out-it has a picture ofa hyena mask that
I made-half is the hyena mask and half is my face. A
video's out as well (for info on both LP and videocassette write PO Box 291071, Los Angeles CA 90029). I
might work with Shirley Clarke-do you know her?
R/S: I've seen her film, The Cool World.
JOHANNA: The Cool World is a great movie. I like
that black kid in the movie-his face is so cool. Every
different way you look at his face, the way the camera
looks at it- he looks like another person. His face just
takes all these different shapes. One time I looked at
his face and I thought he was a mountain or some kind
of cliff. Another time, his eyes were like lime. I just

thought he was so handsome and his lips were really

And the best thing I liked about the movie was when
everybody talked That was exciting to me, because
when people talked you realized that they were people with a past and a future, that they were real human
beings living in time. Sometimes when you watch
somebody like Harrison Ford on the screen, you have
a feeling that they only exist for like a second, or
maybe that they're like Bugs Bunny-somebody drew
them and then that's it. Like they don't shit, or they
don't eat, or go to the store, or anything. But these
people-you knew that they had problems they had to
take care of after they went home at night. I liked it a
lot. Shirley said she used real gang kids.
I just saw her films and I couldn't believe it, I was
really impressed I'm really glad because I just feel
she's somebody I can get along with. Because most
people really want to direct you and make you say all
these things that you don't want to say. Especially
me-I hate to have somebody telling me what to
say... or do. ''Wear this dress and say this and walk
over there!" I really have problems with that.
R/S: Do you watch much 1V?
JOHANNA: Right now I'm watching ~ry, and on
my 1V they're watching something on 1V too! This
show's really silly. Everyone that I work with watches
it. I think this oldwoman that's on now is a psychic ....
R/S: Have you ever visited a psychic?
JOHANNA: When I was in New Orleans I went to this
guy who read my cards. He was real interesting. He was
this kid who was 17 years old but he looked like he was
40 years old I went into this house and there was this
picture of this 17th century guy, like a Frenchman, on
the wall. All of a sudden this guy walks out and here he
is-and he's 17 years old He's kind of paunchylooking, kind of balding-he looks like the same guy,
he even has a little pony tail. Then he starts playing
this harpsichord that he made himself (this other guy
told me he writes in this strange script from that time
period). And he had this crippled father that lives in
the back room-when I went to go to the bathroom his
father grabbed my hand and kept looking at me.
I was really impressed when he read my cards-he
told me things that would happen, that did happen. He
told me things that had happened that I didn't think he
would have any way of knowing. I thought it was



. .
'.~" ~i

,.~;.N. .

interesting-I'd go back and see him again. Plus I just

liked his whole style- I like people that have some
kind of style. I mean it could get boring ifl had to hang
around with him too much, I'm sure, but to just be
visiting in New Orleans it was all right.
One time in Montreal I was at this French/African
restaurant, and I don't speak any French. There were
beaded paintings on the wall; they had heavy food like
beans and bread. We were sitting there eating this
dinner, thinking about getting ready to leave. There
was hardly anybody there except for these women. All
of a sudden this man comes rushing into the restaurant and he said something really loud to this woman
in French. And I don't know French. My friend Tom
asked, "What did he say?" and I said, "Oh, he said there
was a dead man in the parking lot." So then everybody
ran outside, and there was this man lying in the parking lot with his wrists all sliced up. Somehow I
R/S: Did you visit those famous graveyards in New Orleans?
JOHANNA: I don't know how famous they were; I
went to some graveyards. We just laid on the tombstones because it was really, really hot at night. It was a
full moon and we were lying on this cool, cool marble.
They bury everyone above the ground because of
floods, so all the tombs are high and you can climb on
top of them. There's a lot of them around, really old
ones, very interesting-looking. I love New Orleans;
people like to party and there were a lot ofparties and I
liked the people on the streets a lot. I'd like to go there
for Mardi Gras.
R/S: What are you making for your Halloween show?
JOHANNA: I made some day-glo green ghosts, and I
have this huge Wolfman poster. I think I'm going to do
something to the Wolfman, and use the hyena mask
somehow. And I made a couple of monster costumes
that I like a lot. I'm just putting stufftogether right now,
but I'm excited about it. I've been exercising a lot.
R/S: Hey, are you watching 1V now?
JOHANNA: Yeah-they just showed Edith Massey for
a second. I sent Edith Massey a fan letter because I had
this dream that she was on The LoveBoat with Divine. I
thought that was perfect so I wrote her a letter, because
one time when I was in Baltimore I saw her in a thrift
shop and I really liked her a lot. Plus I really like her in
the movies-so wonderful. She sent me a postcard

back and told me when she was going to be in L.A.

R/S: Do you have any tattoos?
JOHANNA: I'd love to get another tattoo. I have a little
tattoo-just a dumb little bird. A long time ago I got it.
It's cute though, I like it.

I trust myself. I trust myself that I'm

never gonna kill somebody by accident or set the stage on fire ....
Everybody always says, "Oh god, you get a tattoo and
then you'll hate it," but I like it still. I like tattoos, I like
the whole idea, I don't care if it's dumb. In fact I wish I
had a couple more. But I'm glad I didn't get the Zig-Zag
Man tattooed on my forehead. I mean I do think you
can really start to hate something after awhile.
See, my dad always had a tattoo and so I always
wanted one, ever since I was a little kid. He had something like a heart and scroll with my mom's name. She
died, but he didn't get it erased. I don't think I'm going
to get anybody's name tattooed on me. I'd like some
kind of Japanese tattoo or something. I just have to
find the right one.
When I got this one, it was just a choice out of what
was there. I went to this woman named Madame
Lazonga in Seattle; I got a cheap tattoo. I got what I
could get for 20 bucks-there were like 3 choices or
10 choices-I can't remember.
Madame Lazonga has, like, 1,000 tattoos; she was the
youngest tattoo artist in Seattle then. She used to wear
these big glasses with rhinestones all over them, and I
thought she was really cool. She has "sleeves" tattooed
on her arms, like lace ... and tattoos on her back and
stomach and legs. I'm really impressed with that!
You know tattoos hurt, too. They hurt more than I
thought they would.
R/S: Tattoos seem to be much more popular now. People
never used to talk about them.
JOHANNA: Well, when there were hippies, everybody got hippie tattoos. Now people get skulls and
bats and snakes and devils and things like that. I have
two friends that are married and they have matches on
their butts. I think it's some kind of joke but I can't



'. ,':'. :,i. }.r:~::.

R/S: What are you the most scared or.
JOHANNA: I think I'm really scared of being trapped
in some kind of boring life where there's no outlet,
where you can't get away from the boredom, where
you can't not think about it. I guess I really wouldn't
want to be in prison. I think of that as being really,
really dull ... and not having control over how bored
you can be. Not that I'm sure there aren't exciting
moments, but that kind of lack of control I really don't
care to think about happening to me.
R/S: Well, you know how paranoid New York City can make
JOHANNA: I hate to hear those stories. Like there was
this couple visiting from Belgium. They were in town
one or two days and the wife, downtown, gets offered a
ride. And she goes with them and then they rape her.
And it's really shitty, because-if I went to Belgium, it
probably wouldn't happen to me there.
It really pisses me off. I get tired of this really personal violence; I think it's so silly when people are
taking their frustrations out on people who don't have
it any better than they do. It just seems like they should
be more cunning, and really evil, genuinely evil, and
do something really horrendous. Or else just admit
that you're a fuck-up, you're impotent, rather than beat
up on somebody that's worse off than you, or as bad.
Go after the assholes who have all the power and the
money, or else ... just swim around in the gutter!
R/S: That's funny, because it seems like there's a lot of
violence in your shows.
JOHANNA: It does seem that way, doesn't it? Funny
you should mention that. I don't know where it all
comes from. Sometimes people think things are more
violent than I think they are. I don't know, but sometimes people who don't know me are afraid to invite
me over to their house or anything. You know I'm a
polite person, I never go over and bust up anybody's
house or anything .. , unless they ask me to.
Sometimes I feel really violent, and sometimes I'm
really angry. Sometimes I feel real anger and real emotions during a show. Other times I'll be doing something that I don't particularly think is violent, but I'll
just feel these intense feelings and get involved in the
movement or the action of whatever I'm doing and it
appears to be extremely violent to someone, whereas
maybe I'm thinking it's something different, you

know? That happens a lot.

Just like the blood that I use- I really think that I've
gotten past the point of it being that symbolic, to me
anyway. It's like when I go to horror movies, I never
can really get scared anymore. But I can remember
that at one time I could get so scared I'd sleep with the
lights on. And I kinda lost that, you know- it's kind of
like losing your virginity or something-you forget
what it was like. And so, I always wanted to feel that
feeling again; I always hoped for it, and yet I don't feel
it anymore. Movies don't scare me anymore, at least
not monster movies.
R/S: Some people think your shows arouse strong fearsemotions related to binh or abortion traumas, with all the
liquids and afterbirth, etc.
JOHANNA: I don't know. I go through phases, like
sometimes the only thing I'm interested in my whole
show is the colors .. ,or form, or sometimes it'll be
things that crunch a lot-that make crunching sounds.
I get into these phases- I get into a lot of color phases
where I'm really affected by certain colors. Like right
now I'm using a lot of this day-glo green-green color,
and it kind of makes me shaky-maybe it's the spray
cans! But there's something about this color-if you
look at it a long time, other colors all look pink. I just
feel this real kind of nervous, edgy feeling from this
color. And other colors make me feel different ways.
Sometimes the same color makes me feel different at
different times, but I'm really affected by color, and I
really think that color could be like a whole form of
communication by itself, and I always wonder how
come it's not used that way, more.
I also like liquids a lot-they change their color and
shape, plus they have a life of their own. They can
move by themselves, and you don't know what they're
going to do-they're unpredictable. I mean, sometimes they won't come out of their container. Sometimes they'll be really thicker than you thought-they
just go plop! plop! plop! Other times they'll spray out.
And you just have more of a feeling that it's not an
inanimate object; you have the feeling of it being
another force that you have to deal with.
Plus, liquid has a color. Sometimes it's translucent,
sometimes it's opaque-there's all kinds of things
about it. Especially for me, because I make a lot of my
stuff on my own, so I don't know how it's going to look




.-.::.. ~ :.. y:.~.~.:.~.: . .~




later. Because if I pack it away into my prop, sometimes it changes-it changes color, it changes shape;
because it's been put away for awhile it gets thick or
something. And sometimes it really stinks, and I didn't
think it was going to stinkR S: That's right; at the On Broadway show you used aged
meatJOHANNA: Oh yeah, those were especially weird
sausages. I made them myself- homemade guts. They
were pretty good-weren't they real-looking?
R/S: Yes, what were they?
JOHANNA: I can't tell.
R/S: Didn't you use a pig's head once?
JOHANNA: I like pigs' heads a lot, because they're so
funny. I like goats' heads-I like any kind of meat,
bones, things like that. Sometimes they smell bad-I
like that. I Hke liver-liver's really good.
The thing is that people react to these things- I
cannot beHeve how people react to things. I cannot
believe that people are disgusted by certain things. I
just can't! Sometimes it just amazes me-the things
that people are upset by. And then when I think about
it, I think about things that I'm upset by, things that I
don't like. Then I realize that... I'm just different.
R/S: These same people will eat steak or liver or brains in
their scrambled eggs and not think about itJOHANNA: A lot of people won't eat brains. I'd eat
brains. But I won't eat steak. Steak tastes like sweat.
Don't you think? It tastes like sweat, take my word for it.
Whereas liver, and organ meats, have flavor, because
they have a blood taste. Muscle meat tastes like sweat,
whereas liver-you feel like you're eating something
flesh-like-you can rip it with your teeth really good
See, the thing I don't understand about meat-eaters
is: I don't understand how these same people that eat
meat are repulsed at the idea ofkilling an animal. But a
lot of them are really upset at the idea. Whereas I
understand: if you want to eat some meat, you take the
animal, kill it, then make some little earmuffs out ofits
coat-there sure would be a lot of people with earmuffs if they had to wear all these animals they ate.
God, when I drive up to San Francisco and pass all
these cows-I can't believe Cowtown. Have you ever
driven by there when there's like a zillion billion cows,
all standing right next to each other. And you see them
for like miles?
R/S: And you can smell them too.
JOHANNA: I don't get it-how come they don't figure

it out and go after these people? Fight back! How did

they ever get into this sorry state? They're pretty
big ... and there's a bunch of them ....
R/S: "Arrack of the Killer Cows." Do you ever worry
about people misinterpreting your shows'
JOHANNA: Nobody is ever going to think what I think
about my shows. I'm so transient, I change my mind
from minute to minute, that I don't even know what I
think about them.
First ofall, I hate anybody telHng me anything; I hate
getting messages, through art, tUms, all that stuff- I
don't think that anybody needs to tell me anything.
And I'm not going to tell anybody-I'm not trying to
make anybody feel anything or think anything.
But ... I think that my shows affect people on a real gut
level. .. for reasons other than the guts! To me, the
things that people probably think are the most sensational about myself are things that I really think are
kind of fluff, things to entertain me, that I like to play
with or be silly with. But I really don't think that people
should be shocked by these things.
I don't use anything that people can't see all the
time! I mean, I didn't invent any of these thingspigsheads, dildoes-I never even had a dildo before I
did shows! I never even thought about it. But now that I
have an opportunity to show them off, I have quite a
few. (God they're so stupid, they're even dumber than
the cows.)
Sometimes I just can't believe that people really do
react to things that they react to.
R/S: Well, I reacted the first time I saw you come out with a
dildo onJOHANNA: I think it's funny. But see, I think that my
shows are a lot funnier-that's what I don't understand, why people don't laugh more. I almost laugh
during the whole show. And most of the things that I
use in the show I think are funny. I think they're really
R/S: I think you've broken some kind of taboo about dry
performing ....
JOHANNA: Also, a certain amount of it has to do with
the fact that I'm a woman doing what I do, too. And I
think that more and more, younger women performers are getting tougher and tougher, they're getting more to the point where they want to do whatever
it is that they want to do. They're getting stronger,
which I really like. They're sick of what they're all
supposed to pretend; that's part of it.


Johanna Went on top of garbage bin full of discarded costumes after

her performance at the Ed Mock Dance Studio. San Francisco 1981.
(Photo: Vale)

R/S: What doyou think about pornography? At one show you

had a huge collage/costume made out of hundreds of color
photos from porno magazines.
JOHANNA: See, I think that genitals are interesting
for a lot of different reasons. I've always been curious
at opportunities to see other naked people. But I think
that pornography def'tnitely is not interesting to most
women, because it really is insulting to women. Most
pornography places women in the position of-well,
placing them in positions! Which is dull-I'm not
interested in that at all.
I get a little pissed off at the women for allowing
themselves to be used that way for money. And at the
same time I understand; I know what it's like to be
broke. I know when people get broke, it's hard.
I have real mixed feelings about pornography. I
always have mixed feelings about saying This
shouldn't be aUowed, yet at the same time I have feelings where I just say, How come people are so stupid?
How can they buy this stuff? How can they keep continuing on with it?
Also, I f'md a lot ofpornography really humorless. I
guess I really like things that are funny. And anything's
funny. I really liked The Tylenol Murders- I just loved
the name. I mean it's really horrible when you think it
could be you-that you just take a little aspirin or
something and then you're dead- but at the same time
it seems so funny, all of it on lV-it seems like a
cartoon. I think this is how things get out of hand-

pretty soon everything seems like a cartoon, or else it

seems like it's on Tv.
R/S: Then you have the Tylenol imitationsJOHANNA; Now they call them The Copycat KiUers. I
love all these silly words, like Copycat-that almost
sounds like Krazy Kat, one ofthose cartoon characters.
R/S: The mass media are responsible for this copycat
phenomenaJOHANNA; They are; they love these ideas of these
murderers, and then they really build it up and people
get all excited .... It's sad! but true.
R/S: Most of these murderers turn out tobe men; women are
a bit behind on that avenue of human progress ....
JOHANNA (sadly): I know, I know. I had hopes when
that little girl in San Diego shot all those peopleBrenda Spencer. I really had hopes; I thought, "This is
a good sign: young, smart girl .... "
R/S: She hated MondaysJOHANNA; That's what you read in the paper. I'm sure
if you talked with her, she'd give you a whole list of
things she hated, and her dad was probably right up at
the top, with the principal.
R/S: Well. she got the principal.
JOHANNA: She did? Well ... I just can't believe that
there aren't more sex-mutilation murders done by
women to men, kind of random ones. Like a lot of
R/S: Well-maybe women are too smart to do things like
JOHANNA: Well, they really have to think about a lot
more things justto survive, I think. It's just that-ifyou,
all the time, have to worry about if somebody's gonna
try and rape you, or beat the shit out of you, or take
your money; or that somebody makes more money
than you, or you're poor, whatever-if you have to
think about these things all the time, it's harder to plan
these other things out! Whereas, if you have a certain
amount of safety in your life just by the fact that you're
a man-you definitely have a certain amount more:
you can move easier at night ... different things that
you don't even have to think about. So you just have
more time to think about doing other things that you
want to do. I mean I def'tnitely think there could be as
many murders done by women; I think about this all
the time. I haven't come up with an answer why.
Also, I've always felt that it's really bad that women
don't go into the army and learn how to use guns, and
actually have to think about and realize that you could
kill somebody with your bare hands. Probably a lot of
women get raped by men that have been in the service,
who have learned real killing techniques, fighting
techniques, and yet these women didn't get the same
training ... for a lot of reasons. It's really bad that they
I think that women should be given Killing Classesnot just fighting classes, but Killing Classes. How To
Kill. How to kill so that you know that you can kill. So
that you know that you can do it. How to kiU someone
with your hands, withyourself, with your body. So that
you really got the feeling for whatyou could do. And a
small person can kill a big person-the possibilities
are endless. I just really think that women should be
trained to kill. And if that happened, I think that would
make a real positive change-more than anything!
More than anything else that I can think of....





,: ',<C'..: ,.'.~"".





All R&N photos throughout by Polyploid Sam.




UdergrOUnd since 1969, llhylbm & Noise

(R&N) is pioneering high-tech, live computerinteractive video-and-sound presentations. Which
means they can improvise and cut-up interactively
between electronic image and sound at any given
point-they're not just replaying prerecorded video.
They see their role as propagandists against misinformation and the control process.
Visual content of the 1980 Compound shows
included war documentation, weapons technology,
lobotomy footage, neo-Pavlovian animal experimentation, whale butchery, post-holocaust survivalism, and
other examples of 20th century progress, surrounded
by a 360 0 force field of loud multi-dimensional (psychedelic?) rhythms & sounds. All 4 shows were different; all 4 were sold out.
Some minimal background: one of the personnel
studied with Nam June Paik and currently works for
Sam Peckinpah; the other has designed his own computerized synthesizer system. They're currently setting up
an affordable public-access video editing facility while
planning a series of appearances over the next 24
months, video collaborations with Z'ev, narrowcast 1V
programs, and automated installations ....
R/S: Do you have a conscious philosophy about what you're
R&N: Subconscious, yes. We're making conscious
attempts to alter established information channels
dosed in the subconscious, where a lot ofthe "control"
mechanisms are triggered via "real world" activities.
Not subverting but diverting, rearranging those paths
to consider alternatives to what is generally conceived
of as the real world. By and large what we're after is
hitting the 2 centers that seem to be the most susceptible to that kind ofrechanneling or redirecting-sound
and vision. That's what vaudeo is.
R/S: Vaudeo?
R&N: It's a neologism-we invented it. It's just a
catchword for our synthesis of technology and ideas,
based on how to get our ideas across. Basically we're
involved in psychoactive processing.
R/S: Vaudeo implies greater emphasis on sound-most people think of video more in terms of images, They normally
don't experience video plus extremely loud sound,
R&N: High resolution sound and high resolution graphics. It also implies a kind of integration of the two
mediums. The sound component might be louder and
physically more moving, while the video component
is more cerebral. The 2 together create almost a sensorial saturation.
R/S: What was significant about your 1980 performances?

They weren't just prerecorded videos played at immense

R&N: They were the outcome of10 years' experimentation in real-time, sound-synchro, locked video via
computerized interaction, and viewed on large video
projections. We really did have it "locked" to the point
where certain sounds did trigger certain events, and
certain images did trigger certain sounds. The performances were our testing grounds. We can show whole
blocks of images in any given order, or overlapping, or
sequence ofoverlappings, within a certain phrase list a
few seconds long to many minutes long. Those
become modular units you can throw into a plot line
or narrative form to change the actual ideas. One night
A-B-C-D, another night A-C-B-D, etc. Sometimes they
link through plot lines or surrealistic dream state
notions, or sometimes things don't link at all-then it's
up to the spectator to put his own ends together.
R/S: Does this consciously relate to Burroughs' Cut-up
R&N: Definitely. We have a lot of relationship to the
Cut-up technique, specifically. And we are going to be
doing something along the lines of Brion Gysin's
Dreamachine in our next show. We will be penetrating
the informational, ideological shell which is imposed
on us, constructed and reconstructed throughout the
day, and getting to the nirvana, trance state where
you're really witnessing the process of information
transfer within the overall context of the mind.
R/S: Integrating dream and imagination processes while
remaining conscious?
R&N: What the Cut-up does for me is-it really destroys a lot of the established patterns. By using a lot of
those images which can be considered more "subconscious" or "surreal" and integrating them into a soundelectronic image package, you can in fact create that
real dream space.
R/S: What content are you providing?
R&N: Without giving anything away-plots, involving a mixture of suppressed sex transmitted into violent action, etc. Plus, in terms of the overall stage
presence, there will be virtually no personalities
involved. Visually there will be a character who goes
through various states of mind while getting from one
place to another-meta-states, unconscious states,
waking states, shock states, non-linearly. You'll walk
away with a sense of having gone through some kind
of journey, but it's not segmented like a film is. Television has always been victimized by its own history as
television, not video-its worst mistake was to be a
passive medium or voice for t11m, theater or stage.
That's not what we're going to be doing, at all.
R/S: Would you say you have an apocalyptic mentality?
R&N: Do we think things are getting worse? Definitely. What interests us is how they're getting worse,
and the techniques that someone, something, is using
to make it worse. The problem rests with people not
having adequate information to wade through the
bulk of essentially useless information. At best it's useless, at the worst it's debilitating and destructive. There
needs to be some kind of new guidance system by
which we can get through the bulk ofideas that have so
far controlled civilization which are worn out, obsolete and essentially useless. Because none of them are



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made to deal with the process of integrating information at such a rapid rate.
R/S: Yes, it's amazing how many media celebrities still proclaim their belief in God and the ChurchR&N: Going to church and God are essentially therapy for a lot of people who really feel insecure about
what they do, while they continue to create obsolete
systems in a highly interactive information environment. They put out lots of bad information. It doesn't
matter how good their intentions are-they're
unaware of what they're doing.
Certain people are really aware-people who
monopolize the airwaves under the guise of making
them controlled by the private sector-which is to say,
you and I. What they really mean is that only the
people who have the money and technology get
access, while other people who have ideas but not the
power and the bucks never get their say.
R/S: Can you say a little more about the de-control process?
R&N: The de-control process is pretty simple-when
things are going one wt9', ideas become ideologies,
and the first duty of an ideology is to defend itself, and
essentially to shunt any information entering from
outside the system that will take it in another
By defocusing the internal eye on linear structure;
creating more of an environmental impact with information rather than an architectural construct that you
have to follow along to see the whole thingdefocusing makes you much freer to see the processes
that go on in the subconscious world, breaking down
the conscious control patterns.
R/S: On a daytime lV serial the real message will not be
linear plot (which you already know but follow anyway), but
Buy tbe osterlzer in tbe background
R&N: You have to realize that commerciallV is not
advertising 6 minutes an hour, it's advertising 24 hours
a day. It's advertising lifestyles, it's advertising social
mores, it's advertising behavioral patterns; it's reinforcing certain ways of behaving which become to the
viewer the proper way to be. And so it creates those
patterns of behavior and reinforces them on a daily
basis. We need other types of behavior! Where's the
other channel?
That's subliminal programming, but to actually get
inside your own mind is a much more difficult task,
especially if most of your time is taken up reacting to
this conditioning and superficial programmingsuperficial ideas that you're being bombarded with on
a day-to-day basis. So the idea is to get inside that whole
mechanism and then put something else there, or at
least open it up so you can see whatever is there yourself and then make a conscious decision about what it
is you really want to do. Rather than being told what to
R/S: How can you do anti-consumerism video?
R&N: The problem with that is that most people end
up doing satire or some kind oftake-offon commercial
lV, but all they're doing is taking a different slantthey're turning the coin over, but it's the same coin.
Most "funny" or "hip" lV programs just reinforce the
popular "alternative" lifestyles, rather than creating a
real alternative of thinking about ideas....



...~ ~...'..







SCRAPE. An original audience abduction and

mobilization event. Participants were moved
from trailers into barrels. l.A., 1969.
DANCING ON DEAD ROCK. Darkness/deprivation weather chamber featured ravaged terrain and sonic incisions. Version #2 performed
in underground city sector collapsed since
1889. Seattle. 1969.
CRASH PROGRAM. Arrivals fastened into
view-slit packing crates which are lifted, hammered and moved down an industrial assembly
line. Packages are then shipped several blocks.
l.A., 1970.
ROLLER WRESTLE. Sparring match on
skates for rink, restaurant and record players.
l.A., 1970.
XIXIZXIZIZ. Twelve trucks and 2 boats transport hundreds of spectators to 12 simultaneous
locations, each of which is rotated hourly until
all vehicles reconverge at dawn. l.A., 1970.
CHRYPILTDESTINY. A 9,000 hour mining
construction project within an academic facility, aborted midstream as authorities confronted bulldozers bearing tree stumps. l.A.,
PALUS SOMNORIUM. First installation to
include audio and video synthesizer link-ups.
l.A.. 1971.
SMELL OF THE VESTURE. Glorifying the
massacre of media rites by antiseptic distortion.
l.A., 1972.
early electronic abrasives is recorded in abandoned breweries and the Mojave desert. 1972.
stretchers are carried to a krypton laser scaffold
which pierces a movie screen. l.A., 1973.
HYDROSIFLESH. An on-camera examination of the excavation of a 300 lb. ice block with
picks, axes and torches. l.A., 1973.
CELLAR M. Hearings featuring Stefan
Weisser's pre-Z'ev acoustic percussion interfaced to the ongoing electronic framework.
Uneasy listening. l.A.-S.F., 1974-75.
1976-77. Vaudeo sortie signals the push into
research and development of group-designed
tools. S.F.
RHYTHM & NOISE becomes the monikerfor
the Humon/Fault/Probe configuration.
Machine prototypes continue development.
S.F., 1978-79.
CRISIS DATA TRANSFER sneak previews.
Live testing of systems and ideas through a segmented, cinematic display. Some sections
sung: Stuck On The Front, Half Life Housewife,
Alizarin K, and Atomcraft. S.F .. 1980.
1981-82. Equipment and personnel are
stripped down, updated and reconditioned. A
business base is established, facilitating longterm goals of product and performance. S.F.

Section 605 of the

Communications Act (FCC)
Formalized Music/Xenakis
Video & Videology/Paik
Through the Vanishing Point/McLuhan
Theatre & Its Double/ Artaud
Human Use of Human Beings/Weiner
Network Project
Radical Software
Gravity's Rainbow/Pynchon
Will To Power/Nietzsche
Messengers of Deception/Vallee
My Secret Life/Dali
Last Aid/Chivian, et al
The Day After Midnight/Riordan, ed
A Heritage of Stone/ Garrison

Greed/von Stroheim
Foolish Wives/von Stroheim
Anaemic Cinema/Duchamp
Ballet Mecanique/Leger
Ghosts Before Breakfast/Richter
Rhythmus 21/Richter
Return to Reason/Man Ray
Emak Bakia/Man Ray
In the Tombs/Edison
An Execution by Hanging/Edison
Electrocution of an Elephant/Edison
Witchcraft Through the Ages/
Christensen (W S Burroughs narr)
Passion of Joan of Arc/ Dreyer
The Phantom Chariot/Sjostrom
The Man with the Movie Camera/Vertov
10 Days That Shook The World/
Woman in the Moon/Lang
The Last Laugh/Murnau
The Monster/Melies
The Red Spector/Freres
Electronic Opera #1 & #2/
Nam June Paik
Variations on Johnny Carson vs.
Charlotte Moorman/Nam June Paik

Persepolis/lannis Xenakis
Electro-Acoustic Music/
Hymnen/Karlheinz Stockhausen
Wings of the Delirious Demon/
IIhan Mimaroglu
Quarter Mass/Todd Dockstader
Luna Park/
Le Voyage/Pierre Henry
Variations for a Door & Sigh/
Pierre Henry
Dresden Interleaf/Gordon Mumma
Pandemonium/Jean Baptiste Barriere
Omnicircus/Frank Garvey
Computer Pieces from IRCAM/
Jean Risset
Terminal Music from Stanford/
John Chowning
American Time Capsule 1967/
Alvin Lucier
L'arbre et caetera/ Alain Savouret
Immersion/Michel Redolfi
De Natura Sonorum/Bernard Parmegiani
Brand Polyphonie/Francois Bayle
Requiem/Michel Chion
Granulations/Guy Reikel







. '.:

:~ ~








.: :....:.:. ::~.:

.... :













.,: ":,'




.... :.

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"A series of beautifully designed volumes, each focusing on a

different aspect of American life ... [RE/Search's] mission is to
stimulate creativity by providing information about
marginalized elements of culture." -STANFORD WEEKLY

"A consistent standard can be applied to RE/Search: you can

extract first-rate information about and thoughts of worthy
artists and activists that are not available elsewhere."



"Obviously, the RE/Search editors are fascinated with society's

"A long-term cultural re-mapping program ... RE/Search noses

out role models who show that you can be creative at any level
against a society's control processes, myths and mental overlays
that prevent people from expressing their individuality."

fringe elements, and since most bikers also enjoy life on the
edge, it's not surprising that we're gonna share some of the
same interests as the fun-loving gang at RE/Search."

"RE/Search examines some of the most arcane fringes of


"RE/Search makes a study of the extremes of human

behavior-saluting individualism in an age of conformity."

subculture with a thoroughness usually found only in academia."



RE/Search #13: Angry Women

16 cutting-edge performance artists discuss critical questions such as:
How can you have a revolutionary feminism that encompasses wild
sex, humor, beauty and spirituality plus radical politics? How can you
have a powerful movement for social change that's inclusionary-not
exclusionary? A wide range of topics-from menstruation, masturbation, vibrators, S&M & spanking to racism, failed Utopias and the death
of the Sixties-are discussed passionately. Armed with total contempt
for dogma, stereotype and cliche, these creative visionaries probe deep
into our social foundation of taboos, beliefs and totalitarian linguistic
contradictions from whence spring (as well as thwart) our theories,
imaginings, behavior and dreams. 8Y2X II ", 240 pp, 135 photos &
illustrations. $22 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $23. AIR Europe: $31. Austrl
Japan: $34.


"These women-potent agents for cultural destabilization-are

definitely dangerous models of subversion. Angry Women-a send-up
ofthe late '50s Angry Young Men-is disruptive publishing designed
to scarify the body politic!"-MONDO 2000

Pea lurill.'F

Karen Finley

Kathy Acker

Annie Sprinkle

AvitaL RoneLL

Diamanda CalM

Lydia Lunch

SUdle Bright

VaLle Export

Wanda Coleman

Linda Montano

beLL hookd

Carolee Schneemann

Suzy Kerr eJ Dianne MaLley

HoLLy Hughed

Freaks: We Who
Are Not As Others
by Daniel P. Mannix

The Confessions
of Wanda von

Another long out-of-print classic

book based on Mannix's personal
acquaintance with sideshow stars
such as the Alligator Man and the
Monkey Woman, etc. Read all
about the notorious love affairs of
midgets; the amazing story of the
elephant boy; the unusual amours
of jolly Daisy, the fat woman; the
famous pinhead who inspired Verdi's Riga/etta; the tragedy of Betty
Lou Williams and her parasitiC twin; the black midget, only 34
inches tall, who was happily married to a 264-pound wife; the
human torso who could sew, crochet and type; and bizarre
accounts of normal humans turned into freaks-either voluntarily
or by evil design! Eighty-eight astounding photographs and
additional material from the author's personal collection. 8Y, x
I I", I24pp. $17 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $18. AIR Europe: $25.
Austr/japan: $28. SIGNED HARDBOUND: Limited edition of
300 signed by the author on acid-free paper $54. ppd. Seamaill
Canada: $55. AIR Europe: $61. Austr/japan: $66.

Finally available in English: the

racy and riveting Confessions of
Wanda von Sacher-Masochmarried for ten years to
Leopold von Sacher-Masoch
(author of Venus in Furs and
many other novels) whose
whip-and-fur bedroom games
spawned the term "masochism." In this feminist classic
from 100 years ago, Wanda
was forced to play "sadistic" roles in Leopold's fantasies to
ensure the survival of herself and her 3 children---&ames which
called into question who was the Master and who the Slave.
Besides being a compelling study of a woman's search for her
own identity, strength and ultimately-eomplete independencethis is a true-life adventure story-an odyssey through many
lands peopled by amazing characters. Underneath its unforgettable poetic imagery and almost unbearable emotional cataclysms
reigns a woman's consistent unblinking investigation of the limits
of morality and the deepest meanings of love. Translated by
Marian Phillips, Caroline Hebert & V. Vale. 8Y2 x I I", 136 pages,
illustrations. $17 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $18. AIR Europe: $25.
Austr/japan: $28.

<.... << << <( <( <( <( << <'. <<. <

"As with all RE/Search editions, The Confessions of Wanda

von Sacher-Masoch is extravagantly designed, in an
illustrated, oversized edition that is a pleasure to hold. It
is also exquisitely written, engaging and literary and turns
our preconceptions upside down."-LA READER

<<( <.

< <

< <

The Atrocity
by J .G. Ballard

This book was once described as

the "most sickening work of art of
the nineteenth century!" Long out
of print, Octave Mirbeau's macabre
classic (1899) features a corrupt
Frenchman and an insatiably cruel
Englishwoman who meet and then
frequent a fantastic 19th century
Chinese garden where torture is
practiced as an art form. The
fascinating, horrific narrative slithers deep into the human spirit,
uncovering murderous proclivities and demented desires. Lavish,
loving detail of description. Illustrated with evocative, dream-like
photos. Introduction, biography & bibliography. 8Y2 x II ", 120 pp,
21 photos by Bobby Neel Adams. $17 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $18.
AIR Europe: $25. Austr/Japan: $28. HARDBOUND: Limited
edition of 200 hardbacks on acid-free paper $33. ppd. Seamail/
Canada: $35. AIR Europe: $41. Austr/japan: $46.



< < <

The Torture Garden

by Octave Mirbeau

" ... sadistic spectacle as apocalyptic celebration of

human potential .. A work as chilling as it is seductive."

"RE/Search has provided us with a moving glimpse at the

rarified world of physical deformity; a glimpse that
ultimately succeeds in its goal of humanizing the inhuman,
revealing the beauty that often lies behind the grotesque
and in dramatically illustrating the triumph ofthe human
spirit in the face of overwhelming debility."

A large-format, illustrated edition of

this long out-of-print classic, widely
regarded as Ballard's finest, most
complex work. Withdrawn by E.P.
Dutton after having been shredded
by Doubleday, this outrageous
work was finally printed in a small
edition by Grove before lapsing out
of print 15 years ago. With 4 additional fiction pieces, extensive
annotations (a book in themselves), disturbing photographs by
Ana Barrado and dazzling, anatomically explicit medical illustrations by Phoebe Gloeckner. 8Y, x I I", I36pp. $17 ppd. Seamail/
Canada: $18. AIR Europe: $25. Austr/japan: $28.
SIGNED HARDBOUND: Limited Edition of 300 signed by the
author on acid-free paper $54 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $55. AIR
Europe: $6 I. Austr/japan: $66.

<.: < < <

"The Atrocity Exhibition is remarkably fresh. One does not

read these narratives as one does other fiction ... one
enters into them as a kind of ritual ..."

<t. <

RE/Search # 11:

RE/Search # 12:
Mode~n Primitives
An eye-opening, startling
investigation of the undercover
world of body modifications:
tattooing, piercing and scarification. Amazing, explicit photos!
Fakir Musafar (55-yr-old Silicon
Valley ad executive who, since
age 14, has practiced every body
modification known to man);
Genesis & Paula P-Orridge
describing numerous ritual scarifications and personal, symbolic
tattoos; Ed Hardy (editor of Tattootime and creator of over 10,000
tattoos); Capt Don Leslie (sword-swaliower);Jim Ward (editor,
Piercing Fans Internationa0; Anton LaVey (founder of the Church of
Satan); Lyle Tuttle (talking about getting tattooed in Samoa); Raelyn
Gallina (women's piercer) & others talk about body practices that
develop identity, sexual sensation and philosophic awareness. This
issue spans the spectrum from S&M pain to New Age ecstasy. 22
interviews, 2 essays (including a treatise on Mayan body piercing
based on recent findings), quotations, sources/bibliography &
index. 8V2 x II ", 212 pp, 279 photos & illustrations. $21 ppd.
Seamail/Canada $22. AIR Europe: $30. Austr/japan: $34.


"MODERN PRIMITIVES is not some shock rag parading

crazies for your amusement. All of the people interviewed
are looking for something very simple: a way of fighting
back at a mass production consumer society that prizes
standardization above all else. Through 'primitive'
modifications, they are taking possession of the only thing
that any of us will ever really own: our bodies."

> >


"The photographs and illustrations are both explicit and

astounding . This is the ideal biker coffee table book, a
conversation piece that provides fascinating food for
thought." -IRON HORSE

"MODERN PRIMITIVES approaches contemporary body

adornment and ritual from the viewpoint that today's
society suffers from an almost universal feeling of powerlessness to change the world, leaving the choice for
exploration, individuation and primitive rite of passage to
be fought out on the only ground readily available to us:
our bodies."-TIME OUT

"In a world so badly made, as ours is,

there is only one road--rebellion."
.- Luis Bunuel
"Habit is probably the greatest block to
seeing truth." -- R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz

A prank is a "trick, a mischievous act, a ludicrous act."

Although not regarded as
poetic or artistic acts, pranks
constitute an art form and
genre in themselves. Here
pranksters such as Timothy
Leary, Abbie Hoffman, Paul
Krassner, Mark Pauline,
Monte Cazazza, jello Biafra,
Earth First!, joe Coleman,
Karen Finley, Frank Discussion, john Waters and Henry Rollins challenge the sovereign
authority of words, images & behavioral convention. Some tales
are bizarre, as when Boyd Rice presented the First Lady with a
skinned sheep's head on a platter. This iconoclastic compendium
will dazzle and delight all lovers of humor, satire and irony. 8V2 x
I I", 240 pp, 164 photos & illustrations. $21 ppd. Seamail/Canada:
$22. AIR Europe: $31. Austr/japan: $35.

"The definitive treatment of the subject, offering extensive interviews with 36 contemporary tricksters... from
the Underground's answer to Studs Terkel."

RE/Search #10:
Strange Film.s
A guide to important
territory neglected by the film
criticism establishment,
spotlighting unhailed directors-Herschel/ Gordon Lewis,
Russ Meyer, Larry Cohen, Ray
Dennis Steckler, Ted V. Mikels,
Doris Wishman and otherswho have been critically
consigned to the ghettos of
gore and sexploitation films. In-depth interviews focus on
philosophy, while anecdotes entertain as well as illuminate theory.
13 interviews, numerous essays, A-Z of film personalities,
"Favorite Films" list, quotations, bibliography, filmography, film
synopses, & index. 8V2 x II ",224 pp. 157 photos & illustrations.
$21 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $22. AIR Europe: $30. Austr/japan:

"Flicks like these are subversive alternatives to the mind

control propagated by the mainstream media."

"Whether discussing the ethics of sex and violence on the

screen, film censorship, their personal motivations, or the
nuts and bolts of filmmaking from financing through
distribution, the interviews are intelligent, enthusiastic
and articulate."-SMALL PRESS

RE/Search #8/9:
J .G. Ballard

RE/Search #6/7

A comprehensive special on
this supremely relevant
writer, now famous for
Empire of the Sun and Day of
Creation. W.S. Burroughs
described Ballard's novel
Love & Napalm: Export U.S.A.
(1972) as "profound and
disquieting...This book stirs
sexual depths untouched by
the hardest-core illustrated
porn." 3 interviews,
biography by David Pringle, fiction and non-fiction excerpts,
essays, quotations, bibliography, sources, & index. 8Y2 x I In, 176
pp. 76 photos & illustrations by Ana Barrado, Bobby Neel Adams,
Ken Werner, Ed Ruscha, and others. $18 ppd. Seamail/Canada:
$19. AIR Europe: $25. Austr/Japan: $28.



"The RE/SEARCH to own if you must have just one

the most detailed, probing and comprehensive study of
Ballard on the market."-BOSTON PHOENIX

Essential library reference

gUide to the deviant performance artists and musicians of
the Industrial Culture movement: Survival Research
Laboratories, Throbbing Gristle,
Cabaret Voltaire, SPK, Non,
Monte Cazazza, Johanna Went,
Sordide Sentimental, R&N, and
Z'ev. Some topics discussed: new brain research, forbidden
medical texts & films, creative crime & interesting criminals,
modern warfare & weaponry, neglected gore films & their
directors, psychotic lyrics in past pop songs, art brut, etc. 10
interviews, essays, quotations, chronologies, bibliographies,
discographies, filmographies, sources, & index. 8Y2 x II n, 140 pp,
179 photos & illustrations. $17 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $18. AIR
Europe: $24. Austr/Japan: $27.

"Highly recommended as both an introduction and a

" focuses on post-punk 'industrial' performers whose

work comprises a biting critique of contemporary culture
... the book lists alone are worth the price of admission!"-SMALL PRESS

tribute to this remarkable writer."


"A sort of subversive artists directory, profiling an

interrelated group of violently imaginative creators/
performers whose works blend sex, viscera, machines,
crimes and/or noise .. anyone with a strong stomach,
twisted imagination and hunger for alternative knowledge, take note: this could be the best $ you'll ever


RE/Search #4/5:
m S. Burroughs,
Brion Gysin,
Interviews, scarce fiction,
essays: this is a manual of
ideas and insights. Strikingly
designed, with rare photos,
bibliographies, discographies,
chronologies & illustrations.
7 interviews, essays,
chronologies, bibliographies,
discographies, sources. 8Y2 x II n, 100 pp. 58 photos & illustrations. $16 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $17. AIR Europe: $20. Austr/
Japan: $22.

44Who wishes to be creative, must first

destroy and smash accepted values."

"Interviews with pioneering cut-up artists William S.

Burroughs, Brion Gysin and Throbbing Gristle .
proposes a ground-breaking, radical cultural agenda for
the '80s and '90s."-Jon Savage, LONDON OBSERVER

44The unconscious self is the real

genius. Your breathing goes wrong the
moment your conscious self meddles
with it." -G.B. Shaw

IIHuman life is an experience to he

carried as far as possible. " -Georges
Bataille, Tbeory ojReligion

Search & Destroy:

Deep into the heart of the Control
Process. Preoccupation: Creativity &
Survival, past, present & future. These
are the early tabloid issues, I Ix I 7",
full of photos & innovative graphics.
#1 J.G. Ballard, Cabaret Voltaire,
Julio Cortazar, Octavio Paz, Sun Ra,
The Slits, Robert K. Brown (editor,
Soldier of Fortune), Non, Conspiracy
Theory Guide, Punk Prostitutes, and more. $8 ppd.
#2 DNA, James Blood Ulmer, Z'ev, Aboriginal Music, West
African Music Guide, Surveillance Technology, Monte Cazazza on
poisons, Diane Di Prima, Seda, German Electronic Music Chart,
Isabelle Eberhardt, and more. $8 ppd.
#3 Fela, New Brain Research, The Rattlesnake Man, Sordide
Sentimental, New Guinea, Kathy Acker, Sado-Masochism
(interview with Pat Califia); Joe Dante, Johanna Went, SPK, Flipper,
Physical Modification of Women, and more. $8 ppd.
Add $1 ea. for Overseas/Canada; $3 each for AIR Europe; $5
each for AIR Austr/Japan.

<t'o <.


SET OF RE/SEARCH 1-2-3: $18 ppd. SeamaillCanada: $19.

AIR Europe: $30. Austr/Japan: $34.

Trilogy~ High Priest

of California (novel
& play); WIld Wives
(novel) by Charles

< < <.;<


For $41 we offer #1-11. SeamaillCanada: $43. AIR Europe: $61.
Austr/Japan: $67.

Me & Big Joe

by Michael Bloomfield
Poignant encounters with some of the last liVing American blues
artists, esp. Big Joe Williams. Entertaining. Sx8", 40pp, photos. $5
ppd. SeamaillCanada: $6. AIR Europe: $9. Austr/Japan: $10.


< <

< <


"It was love at first sight when I saw the book A

surreal, comic journey . It is a beautifully realized
American miniature-fully as grotesque and funny as a
Fellini dreamscape."-CITY ARTS

SIGNED HARDBOUND: Limited Edition of 250 signed

hardbacks on acid-free paper $54 ppd. SeamaillCanada: $55.
AIR Europe: $61. Austr/Japan: $67.
ballsiest hard-boiled ever penned. One continuous orgy
of prolonged foreplay! WILD WIVES-sex, schizophrenia
and sadism blend into a recipe for sudden doom!"
-Dennis McMillan


"Willeford never puts a foot wrong.' -NEW YORKER

< <,


$5 ppd. each. Add $1 each for SeamaillCanada; $3 ea AIR

Europe; $5 ea Austr/Japan.

1953 San Francisco roman nair: the

first two novels by Charles
Willeford surpass the works of Jim
Thompson in profundity of hardboiled characterization, simultaneously offering a deep critique of
contemporary morality. Unusual
plots, tough dialogue starring anti-heroes both brutal and
complex, and women living outside the lie of chivalry: "She wasn't
wearing much beneath her skirt. In an instant it was over. Fiercely and
abruptly." Plus the first publication of a play. 304 pp. 5x8".
2 introductions; bibliography; 15 photos by Bobby Neel Adams.
$14 ppd. SeamaillCanada: $15. AIR Europe: $19. Austr/Japan:

Incendiary interviews, passionate

photographs, art brutal. Corrosive
minimalist documentation of the only
youth rebellion of the seventies: punk
rock (1977-78). The philosophy and
culture, BEFORE the mass media
takeover and inevitable cloning.
#1 Premiere issue. Crime, Nuns,
Global Punk Survey.
#2 Devo, Clash, Ramones, Iggy, Weirdos, Patti Smith,
Vivienne Westwood, Avengers, Dils, etc.
#3 Devo, Damned, Patti Smith, Avengers, Tom Verlaine, Capt.
Beefheart, Blondie, Residents, Alternative TV, Throbbing Gristle.
#4 Iggy, Dead Boys, Bobby Death, Jordan & the Ants, Mumps,
Metal Urbain, Helen Wheels, Sham 69, Patti Smith.
#5 Sex Pistols, Nico, Crisis, Screamers, Suicide, Crime,
Talking Heads, Anarchy, Surrealism & New Wave essay.
#6 Throbbing Gristle, Clash, Nico, Talking Heads, Pere Ubu,
Nuns, UXA, Negative Trend, Mutants, Sleepers, Buzzcocks.
#7 John Waters, Devo, DNA, Cabaret Voltaire, Roky
Erickson, Clash, Amos Poe, Mick Farren, Offs, Vermilion & more.
#8 Mutants, Dils, Cramps, Devo, Siouxsie, Chrome, Pere
Ubu, Judy Nylon & Patti Palladin, Flesheaters, Offs, Weirdos, etc.
#9 Dead Kennedys, Rockabilly Rebels, X, Winston Tong,
David Lynch, Television, Pere Ubu, DOA, etc.
#10 J.G. Ballard, William S. Burroughs, Feederz, Plugz, X, Russ
Meyer, Steve Jones, etc. Reprinted by Demand!
# I I The all photo supplement. Black and White.

From England, a glossy 8Y2 x I I" magazine

devoted to tattoo, piercing, body painting, tribal
influences, pubic hairdressing, et 01. Outstanding
explicit Color/B&W photographs, instructive
text-a beautiful production. Approx. 48 pgs.
Issues #2,3,4 $17 ppd. per issue. Seamail/Canada $18. AIR
Europe $22. Austr/Japan $25. Issues #5-# 15 $20 ppd. per issue.
Seamail/Canada $21. AIR Europe $25. Austr/Japan $28.
Pubic Hairdressing, Out of the Closet, Shotsie.
Africa Adorned, Tanta, Nipple Jewelry.
Tattoo Expo '88, Tribal Influence, Male Piercings.
Female Piercings, The Year of the Snake.
Body Painting, Celtic Tattoos.
Female Nipple Development, Plastic Bodies.
Tattoo Symbolism, Piercing Enlargement.
Tattoos, Nipple Piercing, The Perfect Body.
ISSUE #10:
Amsterdam Tattoo Convention, Cliff Raven.
Ed Hardy, Fred Corbin, Beyond The Pain Barrier.
ISSU E # 12:
Tattoo Expo '90, Genital Modifications.
ISSUE #13:
New Orleans Tattoo Convention 1990.
ISSUE #14:
Krystyne Kolorful, Paris Tattoo Convention.
ISSUE # 15:
The Stainless Steel Ball, Bodyshots: Richard Todd

edited by Don Ed. Hardy
This classic issue features the new "tribal"
tattooing renaissance started by Cliff Raven, Ed
Hardy, Leo Zulueta & others. $13 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $14.
AIR Europe: $21. AustrlJapan: $23.
This issue examines all facets of Magic & the Occult. $13 ppd.
Seamail/Canada: $14. AIR Europe: $21. Austr/Japan: $23.
Deluxe double book issue with over 300 photos. $18 ppd.
Seamail/Canada: $19. AIR Europe: $26. Austr/Japan: $29.
Deluxe double book issue with fantastic photos, examining
trademarks, architectural and mechanical tattoos, the Eternal
Spiral, a Tattoo Museum, plus the gamut of Death imagery. $18
ppd. Seamail/Canada: $19. AIR Europe: $26. Austr/Japan: $29.
All NEW issue that's bigger than ever before (128 pgs) with
hundreds of color photographs. Featuring in-depth articles on
tattooers, contemporary tattooing in Samoa, a survey of the new
weirdo monster tattoos and much more! $23 ppd. Seamaill
Canada: $24. AIR Europe: $31. Austr/Japan: $34.

Please list an alternate title for all Body Art selections.

Halloween by Ken Werner

PopVoid #1: '60s Culture.

edited by Jim Morton

A classic photo book. Startling photographs from

the "Mardi Gras of the West," San Francisco's
adult Halloween festivities in the Castro district.
Limited supply. Beautiful 9x 12" hardback bound
in black boards. 72 pgs. Black glossy paper. $14
ppd. Seamail/Canada: $15. AIR Europe: $27. Austr/Japan: $32.

Edited by Jim Morton (who guest-edited Incredibly

Strange Films). Fantastic anthology of neglected
pop culture: Lawrence Welk, Rod McKuen, Paper
Dresses, Nudist Colonies, Goofy Grape, etc. 8Y2 x I I n, 100 pp.
$13 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $14. AIR Europe: $22. Austr/Japan:


ai ~~~ ai ~~~ ai ~~~ ai ~~~ ai ~~~ ai ~~~ ai ~~~ ai ~~~



Menacing Machine
Mayhem-Mark Pauline

+. +




A documentary by RE/Search editor A. Juno,

probing the motives, methods & manias of
... -~industrial performance artist Mark Pauline &
his survival Research Laboratories, whose
anarchist inventions fuse machines, corpses,
explosives and aviation-tech into new
prototypes and archetypes appropriate for a war universe.
Entertaining! 30 mins. $30 ppd. Seamail/Canada $31. AIR Europe:
$36. Austr/Japan: $40.




Louder Faster ShorterPunk VU}eo

One of the only surviving 16mm color

documents of the original punk rock scene
...... ,~
at the Mabuhay Gardens. 20 minute video
featuring the AVENGERS, DILS, MUTANTS,
SLEEPERS, and UXA. $23 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $24. AIR Europe
$29. Austr/Japan: $33.


Baited Trap

Powerful film noir by Jon Reiss, including a nightmare machine

sequence by SRL. 13 min. $20 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $21. AIR
Europe: $28. Austr/Japan: $30.



Hand-Screened on 100%
Heavyweight Cotton T-Shirts
Gold & Black on White Shirt.



RIES. RedlYeliow/Purple/Green on White Shirt.

STYLE E: W.S. BURROUGHS. Red & Black on


"WE Imll TD




White Shirt.
Black & Purple on White Shirt.
Chart. Black Shirt with White, Red, Lavender, Blue.
MANWOMAN. Black, Red, Blue on White Shirt.
Yellow on White Shirt.
STYLE J: THE GREAT OMI. Black, Red, Green and
Yellow on White Shirt.
STYLE K: TRIBAL DESIGN by Leo Zulueta. Black
on White Shirt.
STYLE L: HANDS by Mohammed Mrabet. Pink,
Gray and White on Black Shirt.
by Survival Research Laboratories, such as "Demand
Unearned Rewards" & "Self-interest is your only
interest-act accordingly." Pink, Blue and Orange on
Black Shirt.

ALL SHIRTS $17 ppd.




Special Deluxe Offer (Save $801)

Complete set of RE/Search serials
plus reprints and complete set of
Search & Destroy.

Special Discount Offer (Save $451)

Complete set of all RE/Search serials

Offer includes Re/Search # 1-2-3 tabloids, #4/5 Burroughs/Gysin/

Throbbing Gristle, #6/7 Industrial Culture Handbook, #8/9 J.G.
Ballard, # I0 Incredibly Strange Films, # I I Pranks!, # 12 Modern
Primitives, # 13: Angry Women, Search & Destroy Issues # I-I I,
The Confessions of Wanda von Sacher-Masoch, Freaks: We
Who Are Not As Others, The Atrocity Exhibition, Torture
Garden, the Willeford Trilogy and Me & Big Joe. Special
Discount offer: $200 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $218. AIR Europe:
$297. Austr/Japan: $336.

Off~r includes. the R~/Search # 1-2-3 tabloids, #4/5 Burroughs!

GyslnlThrobblng Gnstle, #6!7 Industrial Culture Handbook, #8/9
J.G. Ballard, # I0 Incredibly Strange Films, # II Pranks!, # 12
Modern Primitives, and # 13 Angry Women. Special Discount
offer: $1 10 ppd. Seamail/Canada: $1 16. AIR Europe: $166.
Austr/Japan: $1 90.

Subscribe to RE/Search:
Special Reprints Offer (Save $201)
Complete set of all RE/Search
Offer includes the Willeford Trilogy, Freaks: We Who Are Not
As Others, The Torture Garden, The Atrocity Exhibition, and The
Confessions of Wanda von Sacher-Masoch. $58 ppd. Seamail/
Canada: $60. AIR Europe: $85. Austr/Japan $96.

circle one



You will receive the next three books published by RElSearch
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A Clockwork Orange, 46
A Scanner Darkly, 47
Abba, 9, 17, 57, 58
Abbey of Thelema, 115
aborigine: Australian, 104; Tanian,
Abish, Walter, 33
accident(s), 44, 60, 74, 96; Mark
Pauline's, 28-30, 33; show about, 27
Ackerman, AI, 14
"Adrenalin", 12
Aguirre, the Wrath of God, 46
Alfonso, Barry, 62
Amin, Idi, 101
Anger, Kenneth, 76
anti- : anxiety, 87; consumer technology, 109; consumerism video,
132; form, 48; man, 48; music,S, 96;
rationality, 97; violence, 99
Armst, Skot, 14
art, 31, 89, 100, 104, 126; body, 102;
critic, 14; events, 71; mad, 99 (see
also Art Brut); mail, 4, 13-15, 71, 77;
of living, 102; of motorcycle repair,
24; perception, 16; performance, 4,
5, 9, 17 (see also Coum Transission);
state of the, 95; world, 26
art brut, 86, 99, 100 (see also mental
artist, 30, 33, 111; demented, 61;
"industrial", 5; successful, 111;
underground, 71; visual, 17
artificial intelligence, 98
"Ascetic Aesthetics" (text), 115
The Assassination of Representative
Leo J. Ryan and the Jonestown,
Guyana, Tragedy Report, 73
Auto-da-Fe, 47
avant-garde, 4, 5; record company, 84;
writers, 33
Aviation Week and Space Technology,
Baader-Meinhof, 44, 74, 94, 98
Bach, Johann Sebastian, 59
Bad Popes, The, 72
Ballard, James Graham, 33, 85, 97
Barth, John, 33
Baudrillard, Jean, 101, 104
Bazooka, 84; art by Loulou Picasso of,
Beast, The, 72
Beckett, Samuel, 33
Bell, Mary: lyrics to "Mary Bell", 72;
pix of, 72; The case of Mary Bell, 73
Benjamin, Walter, 103
Bergland, Bond, 31
billboard(s), 25, 26, 34, 39
Black Album, 53, 56
black humor, 33, 71, 121
Black Panther, 48
Black Plague, the, 84
Blade Runner, 45
blood, 17, 23, 29, 53, 94, 101, 121-123,
bombs, 94; atomic, 78; M-80s, 24;
neutron, 79; time, 24
Bon Bon, Bobby, 14
books, 13, 15, 18, 19,31,33,41,47,
117, 133
bootlegs, 11, 46
Borgia, Lucretia, 27
Bosch, Hieronymus, 23

Brady, lan, 74; pix of, 75

Bruford, Terry, 74
Bunuel, Luis, 76
Burden, Chris, 17
Burroughs, William Seward, 4, 9, 33,
44, 131
Burundi, master drummers of, 112
Cabala, 109, 111; dictionary of, 114
Cabaret Voltaire, 4, 5, 16, 42-49, 71;
discography, 49, pix of, 42, 43, 46;
records by, 44; references on, 49
California Babylon, 73
Canetti, Elias, 47
Captain Beefheart, 16, 57
Carter, Chris, 9, 17; pix of, 7, 10, 13, 17
cassette, 9, 11, 17, 94; recorders, 109;
(see also tape)
causalty simulation, 17, 75; pix of, 68,
Cazazza, Monte; 10, 13, 14, 16, 23, 28,
31,68-81; acknowledgement by, 81;
discography, 80; filmography, 80; pix
of, 68-70, 73, 77, 78, 81; record
package art on, 87; references on,
80, 81; request list of, 80
Chaplin, J.P., 72
Chase, Richard, 75
childhood experiences: Adolf Hitler's,
65; Boyd Rice's, 58; Mark Pauline's,
24 ,25, 33, 35-37; Monte cazazza's,
71; Z'ev's, 110
Christopherson, Peter "Sleazy", 9, 13,
15,17,75; pix of, 7, 10, 13
CIA (Central Intelligence Agency), 72,
Cities of the Red Night, 47
City in History, The, 4
City Ughts Bookstore, 111
Clarke, Shirley, 123
clothes, 121; black silk flying suits, 48;
military, 48; second-hand, 39; tight
pants, 37; uniforms, 9; weird, 57 (see
also costumes)
Cohen, Leonard, 17
collage(s), 44, 45, 71, 121; dada, 14;
ideas, 97; moving, 96; pornographic,
14; TG, 13
Columbus, Christopher, 102
Colon, Augie: pix of, 58
color(s), 125; army, 45; philosophy of,
45; sounds as, 59
Colour Atlas of Forensic Pathology,
The, 13
communication, 25, 85; absurd, 87;
color as, 125; drum in, 111, 112; god
of, 109 (see also writing, on;
language; poetry; war, information;
Compound, 131
computer(s), 78,100,102,111,114,
131; mental telepathy with, 79
concept, 13, 86, 109; of a scapegoat,
90 (see also idea)
control, 89, 125, 131; animal, 84; birth,
79, 104; by drugs, 79; communicatory,S; crowd, 74; de-, 47, 132;
death, 104; mind, 78; of psychos, 97;
oneself, 75; people, 89; problem,
104; process,S, 9, 30, 36, 131; sell-,
5; techniques,S; tricks, 90; via television,S; world, 78
"Control Addict" 44
Cool World, The: 123
Cornwall Terrace squat of 1974, 39

costumes: see Johanna Went, 118-127

Coum Transmissions, 9, 15, 17; book
on, 17; pix of, 18
Crab Men From Outer Space, 59
Crane, Dr. Hewitt, 79
Cra~ord, Johnny, 57
Craven, Wes, 33
Creative Dreaming, 76
Creative Technology Institute (CTI), 9
Crowley, Aleister, 9, 15, 16, 72, 114;
some books by, 19
Crying of Lot 49, The, 33
cult(s), 9; group, 11; Tibetan, 115 (see
also Jim Jones; Charles Manson)
culture(s), 59, 76,114; African, 111;
Ancient Egyptian, 85; of Jajouka, 45,
46; popular, 15, 45 (see also society;
industrial culture)
Curtis, lan, 11
cut-ups, 4, 9, 11, 17,44,96,131
Dada, 14, 16,44, 71, 96
Dale, Dick: pix of, 60
Danforth, Jim, 60
Dark Ages, the, 102, 104
De Niro, Robert, 113
"Dead Souls", 5
Deaf Club, 54, 55
Dean, James, 65
death(s), 121; battles, 23, 37; car
crash, 85; cat, 122; cathedral of, 103;
control, 104; factories, 4; fate of, 114;
Freud on, 95; in New Guinea, 101;
living, 104; passive, 37; scientific,
101; slow, 104; "star", 103; threats,
9; violent, 101, 103
Decoding the Human Message, 87
Decoy for Terror, 61
Delleuze, Giles, 97
Denny, Martin, 12, 58, 59; pix of, 58
de Sade, Marquis, 104
Devo, 4
Dick, Philip K., 47
Dickens, Charles, 4; -ian, 47
Discipline and Punish: The Birth of the
Prison, 103

disease: books on, 13; cancer as, 102;

proliferation of, 102; sexual, 102;
veneraI, 13, 95, 101
Disneyland, 53, 62; pix of, 63
"Distant Dreams", 12
Divine, 124
Doors, the, 16, 37
Double Vision, 44, 46
dream(s), 4, 60, 61, 76, 85, 97, 100,
121,131; 19th century, 47; day, 29;
Johanna Went's, 122, 124; material,
95; Sandie Shaw's, 57; space, 131,
vote for a, 88
Dreamachine, 131
Dreva, Jerry, 14
drug(s), 15, 74, 75, 90, 99, 121; antianxiety, 87; control by, 79; aka dope,
61; natural, 79
drumming, 45; as communication, 111,
112; voodoo, 113 (see also Z'ev)
Dubuffet, Jean, 99
Duchamp, Marcel, 97
Duff, Malcom, 90
Durand, Gilbert, 97, 102
Duras, Marguerite, 33
Dynasty, 123
Eastwood, Clint, 27; Mark and Neal

Pauline compared to, 15

Ed Mock Dance Studio, 28, 122, 127
Eerie, 37
Element L, 109,111,112 (see also
Emmolo, Tana: pix of, 70
Eno, Brian, 4
Epicurus, 85
epileptics, 78
Equinox, 60
Ernst, Max, 96
Escovedo, Javier, 54; pix of, 61
European Broadcasting Union, 72
Exorcist, The, 78
Extended Play, 44
Factory Records, 11, 45
Factrix, 28, 31
Fad Gadget, 56
fashion, 46, 48, 99; in politics, 88; new,
Fellini, Federico, 76, 96
female vocalists, 57; pix of, 56, 57 (see
also Abba, Annette Funicello, Leslie
Fetish Records, 15, 109
Fetish Times, 34
Fetus Productions, 97
film(s), 31, 45, 46, 59-61, 71, 73, 76, 79,
87,96,123,126,131; as if, 48; beach
party, 61, drivers' ed, 61; horror, 24,
33,59,60,113; LSD, 61; porno, 78;
projections, 94; psychedelic, 113;
sexploitation, 60, 61; use of, in
performance,S (see also movie;
Final Academy, The,S
Fitzcarraldo, 46
flamethrower: (1) hand-held, 94; pix of,
30; schematic of, 38; (2) table model:
pix of, 57
food, 84, 121, 124; black eggs, 17;
eating brains, 94, 126; fast, 89; for
thought, 111; image etc. as, 87;
theory of, 88
Forbidden Island, 59
Foucault, Michel, 103, 104
Fourier, Charles, 100
Frank and Boyd, 56
"Frankie and Johnnie", 59
Freedom of Information Act, 72
Freud, Sigmund, 95
From A to B and Back Again, 147
Fuckers Island Gang, 36
Fugs, the, 37
Funicello, Annette, 55, 57
Garfield, Patricia, 76
General Idea, 14
Genet, Jean, 72
Gie, Robert, 99
Gary Gilmore, 73; memorial society, 73
Girodias, Maurice, 72
Golden Dawn, the, 114
Good, the Bad and the Ugly, The, 113
Gore, Leslie, 53, 57
graffiti: punk, 4
graphics, 9, 131; Bazooka, 84, pix of,
82,83,87, 88; color, 100; "industrial", 11; medical, 13; photorealist,
33; R&N, 130; shock, 71; SPK, 94;
SRL, 41; TG, 15, pix of, 6, 7; weird,
Graybeat Records, 121

Gruesome Twosome, The, 60

Guerin, Dominic, 94 (see also SPK)
gun(s), 38, 90, 95, 115, 122; .22's, 25;
.357 magnum, 34; dart, 28, pix of, 68;
electron, 78; laser-sighted, 48; pellet,
25; rifles, 25; shot, 101; zip, 25
Gysin, Brion, 9, 131
Hard Times, 4
Hearst, Patricia, 39
Heckert, Matthew, 31, 35, 38, 109; pix
of, 21, 30, 32, 93; reference on, 41
Hellfire aub, The, 72
Hendrix, Jiml, 37
Her Bak, 114
Hermes Trismegistus, 87
Hindley, Myra, 74; pix of, 75
History of Sexuality Vol. 1: An
Introduction, The, 104
Hitchcock, Steve, 54
Hitler, Adolf, 63, 65, 85, 113
Homer, 111
Honeymoon Killers, The, 74
Hong Kong cafe, 121
horoscope, 97
Hooper, Tobe, 33
Hughes, Robert, 99
Huysmans, Joris Karl, 84, 89
Hyena, 121
"Hymns to the Star Goddess", 115
I Ching, 86
"I Feel Love", 4
Idea(s), 4, 5, 27, 30, 31, 3537, 65, 86,
89, 96-100, 102, 131, 132; aesthetic,
96; collage, 97; cynical, 33; exciting,
25; "industrial", 4, 9, 11; inspired, 44;
machine, 97; new, 85, 98; of a cultural subversive, 112; of beauty, 97;
of confusion, 23; of cheating, 33; of
eugenics, 97; of music, 54, 55; of
(no) taste, 100; of primum moveos,
97; of Miss Universe, 97; of the
eternal return, 102; of total revolution, 102; of truth, 95; of violent
death, 101; original, 33; own, 25, 30;
performance, 38; real, 89; strange,
59; transparency as, 104; wrong, 25
"The Illusion of Objectivity" (text), 90
image(s), 4, 45, 86, 88, 95, 131; devil,
27; dream, 76; electronic, 131;
Intimate, 102; New Guinea, 46; of
death, 101; untapped, 10
imagination/tlve, 73, 85, 101; developing the, 114; faculties, 95; lack of,
45; overheated, 4; processes, 131
In Search Of, 73
Incredibly Strange Creatures Who
Stopped Living and Became Mixedup Zombies, The, 60
Incredibly Strange Films, 53, 59, 61
"industrial", 4, 9, 10, 16, 39, 103;
artists,S; film, 45; generic, 4; Ideas,
5; life, 11, 88, 89; music, 16; nation,
78; post-, 103, 112; scene, 37
industrial culture, 88; defined, 4-5, 11,
16,37; as guerilla movement, 98
Industrial News, 5
Industrial Records, 9, 13, 15, 94
Industrial Revolution, the, 10, 23,47,
information, 13, 16, 30, 60, 72, 111,
112,132; 5-year lag In, 102; access
to,S; bad, 132; channels, 131;
Crowley's, 114; direct, 89; gap, 102;
in music,S; Inactive, 132; mis-, 131;
new, 89, 98; overload, 104; prolif
eration, 102; researching, 99; secret,

11; static, 97; subliminal, 113; technological, 88; truth in, 104; useless,
131; visual, 45
Information War,S, 9, 15
Institute of Contemporary Arts (LAICA),
Instruments, "musical", 17, 38, 55, 59,
International Marketplace, 59
Internationa/e Situationniste, 88
jazz, 26, 112
Jodorowsky, Alexandro, 96
"Jo-Jo the Dog-faced Boy", 57
joke(s), 33,60,87,89,90,101, 124;
little, 121; one-line, 112; practical, 62,
Jones, Jim, 17, 73, 90, 103; pix of, 74
Jonestown, 53, 55, 73, 74, 90
"Journey Through A Body", 12
Joy Division,S, 11, 84
Juliet of the Spirits, 113

Kill Test, 33
King and I, The 59
Kirk, Richard, 43-49; pix of, 42-44, 46,
kitsch, 46, 48
Korzybski, Alfred, 90
Kraftwerk, 4
L 'Aitre Saint-Maclou, 84
La Mamelle, 54
Laborlt, Henri, 87, 88
Lang, Fritz, 27
language(s): calligraphic, 111; English,
100; international, 45; levels of, 111;
meta-message in, 111; speak, 15
(see also communication; poetry;
writing, on)
Lauren, Ron, 60
Lautreamont, Isidore Ducasse, 95
Layton, Larry, 74
L'echange symbolique et la Mort, 104
Lewis, Herschell Gordon, 60
Liddy, G. Gordon, 28
Lie, 17
Iie(s), 33, 72, 89; catholic, 36; ideas as,25

Llewelleyn, 114
London Filmmakers Co-op, 15
London Wax Museum, 73
"Loop", 5
LPs: by Sordide Sentimental, 84;
Cabaret Voltaire's, 44, 49; SPK's, 94;
TG's, 4, 5, 11, 13 (see also records)
The Lost Ones, 33
The Love Boat, 124
Lust/Unlust Records, 109
Lyceum, 15
Lynch, David, 76
Mabuhay, The, 4, 109, 112
machine(s), 16, 114; bachelor, 97;
complex, 109; desiring, 97 (see also
Mark Pauline)
Madame Lazonga, 124
magazine(s), 15,39,77,90,98; porno,
127; science fiction, 89; SM, 95
magic, 95; black, 115, ceremonial, 115
magick, 9,11; philosophical, 16
Magick in Theory and Practice, 114
Magneet Bond, 109, 111, 112 (see also
Mahoney, Rebecca, 78
Malcolm X, 99
Maldoror, 95

Malinder, Stephen "Mal", 43-49; pix ot,

Man Ray, 96
Mannix, Daniel P., 72
Manson, Charles Milles, 17, 63, 65, 103;
pix of, 72, 73
Manson girts, 55, 73, 74; pix of Sandy,
Ouisch, Cathy and Mary, 75
Manuela and the Five Oops, 57; pix of,
56, 57
March, Peggy, 57
Marcuse, Herbert, 104
Massey, Edith, 124
Mayomberos, 115
McLuhan, Marshall, 103
"Meal Processing Section", 94
Memoirs of a Sword Swallower, 72
mental! insane patients, 56, 86, 94, 99
Mercury, 109
Metal Men, 37
Middle Ages, the, 102
Midnight Express, 46
Miller, Daniel, 15,53
Mirror of Production, The, 101
money, 9, 14, 27,29,31,33, 37,39, 48,
127, 132
Monitor, 54, 55
Monroe, Marilyn, 97
Moonlighting Wives, 60
Moore, Sara-Jane, 74
moral(s): bourgeois, 48; conservatives,
15; person, 115; right, 47; system,
101; very, 14
Morgenthau, Jr., Henry, 78, 79
Moroder, Giorgio, 4
Morricone, Ennio, 16
Morton, Jim, 53, 59
motorcycles, 24, 29
movie(s), 48, 59-61, 113, 121, 123;
B-grade, 95; cowboy, 101; horror,
27,33,35, 113, 125; industry, 33;
monster, 37, 125; stars, 85; weird,
57(see also films; videos)
Moyers, Bill, 78
Mr. Rosewater, 33
Mumford, Lewis, 4
murder(s), 9, 34, 127; mass, 12; suicide
equals, 103; Victorian, 4
Murrin, Tom, 121
music, 9, 11, 44, 45, 53, 56-58, 109,
111,114; acoustic, 16; anti-,S; as
tood, 87; as international language,
45; as propaganda, 46; dance, 15;
dissonance in, 59; experimental, 54;
fou, 86; idea of, 54; Industry, 9,
Motown, 37; "New Musik", 4, 5;
noise, 54; pastoral, 113; pop, 45; rap,
87; repetitive, 55; scratch & rap,S;
soundtrack 45
Mussollni, Benito, 44, 85
mutations,S, 101, 102; animal-robot,
23; animals as, 14
Mute Records,S, 15, 53
"Mysteries of the Reactionary Mind:
An Exploration of the Mechanics
Underlying Reactionary Thought",
myths, 85; cross-cultural, 102; cyclical,
102; modern, 102; of dying and
rebirth, 114
"Nag Nag Nag", 16
Naked Lunch, 72
Nam June Paik, 131
NASA (National Aeronautics and
Space Administration), 78

Nations, Opal, 13
Nazi(s), 13, 115; helmets, 37; insignia,
neter, 85
Nietzsche, Friedrich Wilhelm, 101, 102
Night Gallery, 37
"Night of the Succubus", 28
Nimoy, Leonard, 73
noise, 16, 17, 44, 45,53,55,57,96,
121; amplified,S; tactory, 4, 9;
helicopter, 31; "industrial", 10-12;
pure, 56; rhythmic, 109; signal, 97
"Noise", 36
Non (see Boyd Rice)
O'Connell, Laurie, 55; pix of, 54, 65
On Broadway, 111, 112, 114, 121, 122,
"On Top of Old Smokey" (Monte's
version), 71
Outer Limits, The, 37

Pagan Muzak, 56
paranoia, 104; and Abba, 58; clinical,
4; in songs, 47; New York, 125;
person with, 113
Patton, George Smith, 78
Pauline, Mark, 15, 16, 20-41, 77, 95,
98, 109, 112, 121, 123; chronology,
40; pix of, 21, 22, 26, 29, 32, 93;
reference, 41. Machines of, and SRL,
23, 25-31, 34, 95; automated
mechanical arm: pix of, 29, 39; Mr.
Satan: pix of, 24, 32; mummy-goround: pix of, 25; piggly-wiggly: pix
of, 28; rabot: pix of, 26 (see also
Pauline, Neal, 15, 23; pix of, 93
Peckinpah, Sam, 131
Peeping Tom, 61
Penthouse Forum, 104
People's Temple, 73, 74; pix of
Children's Black Light Discipline
Room in, 76
percussion, 59, 109 (see also
drumming; Z'ev)
performance(s), 46, 53-55, 71, 77; by
Boyd Rice, 15, 53-55; by Coum
Transmission, 17; by Johanna Went,
121-127; by Mark Pauline, 23, 26, 27,
30,39,40,41; by Monte Cazazza,
80; by R&N, 131; by SPK, 94; by TG,
11,12; by Z'ev, 109, 111, 113;
musical,S; rock 'n' roll, 111 (see
also rituals)
philosophy, 15, 47, 77, 97, 102, 131;
content as, 84; Eastern, 37; history,
101; of color, 45; treatises on,S
Pierce, Rod, 15
Pinker, James, 94
"Poem for Uncle Bill", 18
poetry, 98, 99; Homer's, 111; occult
situation of, 111 (see also communication; language; writing, on)
Polanski, Roman, 76
Pollee Museum, 24
politics/political, 27, 36, 73, 74, 88, 90,
100,109; In-fighting in, 15; in poetry,
pop,S; band, 112; culture, 4; music,
45,57; records, 114; song, 16
P-Orridge, Genesis, 4, 9-19, 77, 86, 89,
90; reference, 18, 19; pix of, 7, 8, 10,
13,14 (with caresse), 18, 73 (see
also Temple of Psychick Youth;
Throbbing Gristle)
pornography, 48, 78, 95, 99, 127; child,
71; death as, 104; homo, 79; vs.

eroticism, 111
"The Post-Industrial Strategy" (text),
103, 104
power, 16, 27, 111, 112, 125;
impersonal, 23; in words, 65;
motives, 89; new form of, 104; of
imagination, 95; relationship, 95;
rhythmic, 45
Power, Sex and Magick, 17
primitlve(s), 103; culture, 97; ethnic, 46;
instruments, 59; life forms, 101;
modern, 46; rock, 84; societies, 104;
urban, 46
process(es): biochemical, 87; decontrol, 47, 132; dream, 131; genetic,
101; imagination, 131; jail, 75;
mental, 99; of control,S, 9, 30, 36,
131; of Integrating Information, 132;
of perception, 99; of science, 95; of
working, 110, 111; psychoactive,
131; tape, 111; unconscious, 96
Project Artaud, 31
propaganda,S, 13, 46, 104; music as,
46; R&N as, 131; war, 16, 44, 79
prostitution, 89
psychic, 103, 123; as trend, 16;
environment, 4; healing, 73; leap, 87;
liberation, 103; vampire, 114
Psychic TV,S, 9, 114
punk, 53,86, 87; rock,4,5, 11, 54
pupillometry, 79
Pynchon, Thomas, 33
R&N (Rhythm & Noise), 128-133;
graphic by, 130; references on, 133;
video stills by, 128, 129, 132
Raging Bull, 113
Ragsdale, Harvey: pix of, 58
reading, on, 33, 47
Reagan, Ronald, 73, 109, 112
record(s), 5, 9, 11, 12, 16, 44, 48, 54,
71, 84, 86, 109, 113, 123; companies,
5, 56, 65, 84, 87; for mental patients,
56; pop, 114; stores, 94; treated, 53
Red Aspha/~ 78
Red Brigade, the, 98
religion, 16, 27, 35, 36, 65;
monotheistic, 90; rock as, 87
Residents, The, 4
Resnais, Alain, 87, 88
Revell, Graeme, 92-105; pix of, 92 (see
also SPK)
Rice, Boyd aka NON, 15, 16, 25, 29,
discography, 67; pix of, 50-54, 58,
60-67; records of, 53-56; references
on, 66-67
rites: de-indoctrination, 53; testing
procedures as, 95
rltual(s): drumming, 112; Egyptian, 114;
magical, 115; mass trance, 113;
video, 114; Z'ev as, 111 (see also
Robertson, sandy, 4, 16
rock 'n' roll, 4,10,11,44,45,112; as
religion, 87; critics, 87; magazine, 89;
market, 87; performance, 111; stars,
Rough Trade, 44, 46
Rule, Jane, 4
Rumor, Fear, and the Madness of
Crowds, 72
Russell's paradox, 98
SAS, 48
SPK aka Socialist Patients Kollektiv,
Soziallstisches Patlenten Kollektlv,

Surgical Penis Klinik; 86, 92-105;

references on, 104, 105
Sangerman, Mark and Janice, 23
Sarno, Joe, 60
science fiction, 100; books, 33;
magazine, 89; novel, 88; trash, 46
schizophrenics, 79
Search and Destroy, 4
Second Annual Report, 4, 5
Senoi, the, 76
"The Set-Up", 44
777, 114
sex, 15, 16,61,121; as performance
art, 17; bestiality, 101; child porn, 71;
first, 37, 38; fist-fucking, 71;
hardcore, 95; in poetry, 111;
mutilation murders, 127; revolution,
104; SM, 95; suppressed, 131; with
Shaw, sandie, 57
Shell Bar, The, 58
Shell Oil Company, 88
"Silent Command" 44
"Sister Ray", 5
skinheads, 48
situationist(s), 88, 90; theory, 4
SLA (Symbionese Liberation Army), 74
"Slave Beyond the Grave'"
"NO UNO", 121
slogans, 44; "Industrial Music for
Industrial People", 10; "Kill Kill Kill
For Inner Peace and Mental Health",
94; words as, 85
"Slug Bait", 16
sociefy(ies), 77, 86, 96, 99-102, 104;
agricultural, 114; American, 47;
archaic, 95; bourgeois, 90; future, 97;
magickal, 15; masochistic, 77;
mechanical 114; of consumers, 88;
pill, 102
Soldier of Fortune, 39
Sordide Sentimental,S, 8291;
discography, 91; magazine covers of,
82, 83, 87, 88; references on, 91
Some Bizarre Records,S
Sounds, 16
sound(s), 4, 16, 31, 47, 53, 79, 96, 131;
bird, 59, 113; conversation as, 113;
crunching, 125; exotic, 58; German,
85; high resolution, 131; inducing
heart attack with, 78; nonmusical,S;
of car keys, 114; of telephone bell,
114; of Uns, 111; performances, 109,
111; poetry, 54; real, 55; Rorschach
test, 56; slide guitar, 17; spectrum,
45; tape, 111; territory, 44; theory,
59; uncliched, 59; unique, 11 (see
also noise; music)
soundtrack(s), 5, 17, 23, 31, 45, 59, 94,
Spahn Ranch: pix of, 65
Spencer, Branda, 127
sperm capsules, 101, 102
spiritual: treatises,S; values, 16
"Split-Second Feeling", 44
"Spread the Virus", 44
SRI (Stanford Research Institute), 79
stealing, 37, 75, 109; cars, 25;
equipment, 35; everything, 88;
(shoplifting) cigarettes, 71 (see also
Steckler, Ray Dennis, 61; pix of, 60
Storm, Jim, 23
Stradella, 72
Street Cops, 101
structuralism, 96
subconscious, 11,27,45,47,63, 114,

131, 132 (see also unconscious)

subliminal(s), 44, 45, 78, 86, 113; as
hidden meaning, 34; influences, 88;
information, 113; pornography, 99;
programming, 132; tape, 17, 53
Subterranean Records, 109
succinyl chlorine, 95
surreal(ist): drawings, 33; dream state,
Survival Research Laboratories (SRL),
23; graphic, 41; origin of, 39
Svirsky, Mary, 23
symbol(s), 88, 102, 104, 121; blood as,
125; of passage, 90; of rebellion, 65;
sinister, 84; words as, 85
synthesizer(s), 5, 84, 89, 109 (see also
page 17)
syphilis, 101, 102 (see also disease,
taboo(s), 5, 126
tactic(s), 13, 15, 46; shock,S
Taoism, 102
tape(s), 53, 113; ideas on, 44;
indoctrination, 55; Jonestown, 17, 53,
55, 73, 74; loops, 17, 56; moral
majority, 48; noise, 54, 56;
processes, 111; recorders, 55, 73;
spoken, 55 (see also cassette)
tattoos, 124
Taxi Driver, 46
Tchaikovsky, Peter Uyich, 59, 95
Tchaikovsky stove, 95
Teenage Psycho Vs. Bloody Mary, 60
Temple of Psychlck Youth, The, 9, 16
Ten Commandments, The, 61
Terpel, Frank, 74
Terrified, 60
Tesco Disco,S
Tesla, Nikola, 78
theory(ies), 85, 90, 97, 100, 101; brain,
90; imperfect, 86; of cut-ups, 11; of
food, 88; of magick, 11; of music, 86;
of sound, 59; of the history of
philosophy, 101; of the history of
syphilis, 101; of transparency, 89;
situationist, 4; world of, 88
Thief's Journal, The, 72
thievery: as occult situation, 109 (see
also stealing)
Those About To Die, 72
Throbbing Gristle aka TG, 4, 5,619,
45, 86, 89, 96, 112; graphic, 6, 7; pix
of, 7, 10,13; records by, 11-13, 16,
84; references on, 19; video by, 10
Through a Black Sun, 47
Tibet, David, 114
Tiki Bar, 59
time, 29, 44, 45, 47, 54, 59, 74, 77, 99,
111; Iife-, 100; real, 48, 131; waste of,
"Tiny Bubbles", 59
titanium, 109
Tovey, Frank, 56
Trashola, 53, 59
Tropic of cancer, 72
Turman, Robert, 54
Turmel, Jean-Pierre, 5, 82-91; pix of,
Tutti, Cosey Fanni, 4, 9, 17, 89; pix of,
TV, 5,28, 31, 33,37,47, 48,63, 72, 73,
131,132; as food, 87; how to avoid,
Twenty Jazz Funk Greats, 12

Tyne-Tees Television, 44

88, 90, 96, 103;

delUSIons, 97; "Freudian" 97'
inorga~ic, 967; modern, 97; ,
paranoId, 99; states, 131 (see also
"Unfortunate Spectacle of Violent Self
Destruction", 27
Uns, 109, 111; pix of, 112 (see also
vampire, 89, 122; psychic, 115; trial, 74
van Bergen, Karel, 94
vaudeo, 131
Velvet Underground, the, 11, 16
video(s), 45, 46, 71, 96, 123, 131, 132;
-cassette, 44, 48, 94; in performance,
5; ritual, 114; -tape, 28, 46, 114
Vinyl Fetish, 122
Vinyl Records, 109
Violence In Our Times, 101
virus(es), 79, 84, 101
Vision and the Voice, The, 115
von Bontee, Yves,S, 8291; pix of, 90
(see also Sordlde Sentimental)
Vonnegut, Kurt, 33
voodoo, 115; dolls, 123; drumming,
113; Haitian, 115
Vox #12,90
war, 109; Civil, 113; documentation,
131; Falklands, 48; genetic, 79;
propaganda, 16, 44, 78; simulated,
23; VIetnam, 37, 98, 103 (see also
Information War)
"War of Nerves", 44
Warhol, Andy, 11, 47, 99; the Factory
Watson, Chris, 44; pix of, 42, 43, 46
Watson, Gray, 17
weapon: deception as, 86; ultra sound
as, 78
Wechter, Julius: pix of, 58
Went, Johanna, 112, 118-127; pix of,
Werner, Eric, 23, 29; pix of, 32; pix of
the "mechanical hand" of, 29, 39
Western Works, 44
Wheels of Tragedy, 78
Whip Angels, 72
Whisky-a-Go-Go, 55
White, Dan, 75
Who Dares Win, 48
William Burroughs Reader, 47
witchcraft, 65
women('s): criminals, 74; heavy-metal
lib song, 58; movement, 38;
performers, 126 (see also female
vocalists; Johanna Went)
word(s), 55, 79, 85-87, 111, 127;
double-talk, 62, 63; loaded, 98;
swear, 12
writing, on, 4, 15,44, 76, 77, 85, 86,
88-90,101,111,123; a journal, 15,
76,85 (see also communication; cutups; language; poetry)
Zappa, Frank, 16, 37
Zen, 87
Z'ev aka Magneet Bond, Deesse,
Element L, Shaoul, Uns, Stefan
Weiser, Rax Werx, Yoel; 15, 16, 54,
59,106-117,131; pix of, 106-108,
110,112,114; references on, 116,
Zohar, 87