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Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

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Beyond Highbrow – Robert Lindsay

BY ROBERT LINDSAY | MARCH 15, 2011 · 4:47 AM

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas

I am not sure why Hindutvas want to push the dating the Rig Vedas back so far. Can anyone help me here?

Generally, the Rig Vedas are said to begin around 3900 YBP. This is also the time of the Aryan migration to India. For some reason, in order to subdue the hated Aryan migration theory (AMT) Hindutvas need a very early date for the Rig Vedas. But why is this? Why is an early date so important? I’m lost here.

An early dating of the Rig Vedas is very important if you want to push the Out of India Theory for Indo-European. Perhaps this is the motivation here?

Here is an article on the dating of the Rig Vedas from a crazy Hindutva website that is extremely popular with educated Hindus.

We will go through this nonsense part by part here:

The Saraswati River. This river supposedly disappeared 3900 YBP and it is mentioned in the Rig Vedas. However, no one really knows what river is being referred to here. The earliest references to the Saraswati are to the Helmand in Afghanistan. Later references are to a river in India. The Saraswati has always been a mystical river in the Vedas, and the Saraswati River theory endlessly pounded by Indians is widely considered to be a red herring.

The Egyptian pyramids had to have been built using ancient Indian mathematical knowledge. I’ve never heard this one before, but it sounds nuts. The algorithm for building the pyramids is supposedly found in the Vedas.

Astronomy. Supposedly, astronomical records prove that the Vedas date back to 6000 YBP. This theory is widely considered dubious.

The Rig Vedas do not mention silver or cotton. This is another one that they hammer on all the time. I’m not exactly sure what it is supposed to mean, but supposedly it puts an early date on the Vedas. The Vedas don’t mention all sorts of things.

The sages. Supposedly the sages are dated all the way back to 5700 YBP. But we have no way of dating any of these wise men and their eras. That’s purely speculative.

No mention of iron in the Vedas. Iron came to India 3200 YBP, so supposedly the Vedas must date before that. However, the word ayas is reportedly used in the Vedas for iron. Hindutvas dispute this. There is definitely mention of metals in the Vedas, and the Aryan migration can be dated from place to place in South Asia according to the introduction or iron, as the Aryans brought metalworking.

Indus Valley Civilization. The Harappans, or IVC, are said by one Indian author to be mentioned all throughout the Vedas. This would take the Vedas all the way back to 9000 YBP. This makes no sense. The time of Vedas, with horses,

YBP. This makes no sense. The time of Vedas, with horses, 1 o f Print 55

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chariots, soma, stone forts and metals, simply screams 2nd millennium BC. The Harappan civilization was in ruins by the time the Aryans showed up, having declined 5000 YBP.

Dating of events in the Mahabharata is put by all sources at 5100 YBP. As Hindu culture is ahistoric in terms of dates and events, no one knows when these events took place.

The Aryan Invasion Theory was used by Hitler to commit genocide. There’s no evidence that this is true or that the Nazis cared much about it. At any rate, the Nazis used “Aryan” to mean “Germanic.”

Max Muller, one of the originators of the AMT, was hired by the British to erase Indian history. Why would the British bother to do that? It’s ridiculous.

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Rig Vedas Cannot Overlap with the Indus Valley Civilization 170 responses to “ Hindutva Crazies on

170 responses to “Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas

Dirty Bull

March 15, 2011 at 9:13 AM

of the Rig Vedas ” Dirty Bull March 15, 2011 at 9:13 AM The Latin for

The Latin for bronze is ‘aes’, very similar to ‘ayas’. Circumstantial evidence linking the Aryans to the bronze age and a Eurasian homeland, since the homeland would be equidistant from Italy/India.

Reply

the homeland would be equidistant from Italy/India. Reply 2 o f P r i n t

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Wade in MO

March 15, 2011 at 2:33 PM

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

. wordpress . com /2011/03/15/ hindutva - crazies “I’m not exactly sure what it is supposed

“I’m not exactly sure what it is supposed to mean, but supposedly it puts an early date on the Vedas”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton#History “Cotton was first cultivated in the Old World 7,000 years ago (5th–4th millennia BC), by the inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization, which covered a huge swath of the northwestern part of the Indian subcontinent, comprising today parts of eastern Pakistan and northwestern India. The Indus cotton industry was well developed and some methods used in cotton spinning and fabrication continued to be used until the modern industrialization of India. Well before the Common Era, the use of cotton textiles had spread from India to the Mediterranean and beyond.”

My guess is that by saying that there is no cotton they think they are proving that they must have been written before cotton cultivation started 7000 years ago.

Reply

Robert Lindsay

Robert Lindsay

March 15, 2011 at 2:37 PM

That’s truly insane. The Vedas were written 3000-3500 YBP. There was no writing in Indian 7000 YBP!

Reply

Wade in MO

Wade in MO

March 15, 2011 at 2:45 PM

“That’s truly insane”

So is this… “The Tajmahal is Tejomahalay – A Hindu Temple” http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/taj_oak.html

Reply

Robert Lindsay

Robert Lindsay

March 15, 2011 at 2:50 PM

Yes, that’s nuts, right? Claiming that the Taj Majal is a Hindu temple? Bizarre. That can’t possibly be true.

Matt

March 15, 2011 at 3:06 PM

can’t possibly be true. Matt March 15, 2011 at 3:06 PM If they were saying that

If they were saying that it was built on the site of a Hindu temple, I might give it serious consideration long enough to look it up in a legitimate reference source. Stuff like that happened quite often in India and elsewhere. But there is absolutely no question that the building that we know was built by a Muslim Moghul ruler in a style typical of Islamic India and Persia. The article claims that the Om symbol appears in the Taj. I don’t know if it’s true, but what if it is? It’s a matter of historical record that many Moghul rulers tended to be as syncretist as it was possible to be while still identifying as Muslims. One of them (Babar, I think) actually seriously explored creating his own religion.

actually seriously explored creating his own religion. 3 o f P r i n t 5

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In short, you’re right. Whoever wrote that is a liar. Or psychotic. Or a psychotic liar.

Robert Lindsay

March 15, 2011 at 3:34 PM

a psychotic liar. Robert Lindsay March 15, 2011 at 3:34 PM Whoa wait a minute! They

Whoa wait a minute! They are not saying it is built on the site of a Hindu temple, they are saying that it *is* a Hindu temple?! WTF man. That’s so whack LOL.

Harry S

March 16, 2011 at 2:33 AM

That’s so whack LOL. Harry S March 16, 2011 at 2:33 AM Typical Hindu nonsense. According

Typical Hindu nonsense. According to them, the Kaaba is also a Hindu temple and Muslims worship Shiva.

*facepalm*

Rajeev

February 1, 2012 at 2:05 AM

worship Shiva. *facepalm* Rajeev February 1, 2012 at 2:05 AM Recent studies indicate that there exists

Recent studies indicate that there exists in Northern India dried bed of a very large river that ( again tests have proved ) commenced drying up around 2600BC and was dried out by 1900 BC . Also along the dried bed of this river hundreds of so called Indus Valley Civilization settlements have been discovered. Other scientific proofs have indicated that this dried up river is indeed the Saraswati river of the Veda and the Mahbharata . As a positive date of the time period when this river dried out has been obtained through scientific methodology , one can safely use this “evidence” of the Saraswati river and state with confidence that the Rig Vedas was composed several centuries PRIOR to 2600BC . The Aryan “invasion” theory is also laid to rest as the ARYAN civilization was none other than the Indus Valley Civilization , which after the drying up of the Saraswati, shifted to the Gangetic Basin from around 1900 BC .

Reply

Robert Lindsay

February 1, 2012 at 2:56 AM

1900 BC . Reply Robert Lindsay February 1, 2012 at 2:56 AM Bla bla bla bla

Bla bla bla bla Sarasvati Bla bla bla Vedas Bla bla bla 1900 BC Bla bla bla river dried up Bla bla bla.

Rupert

February 1, 2012 at 7:33 AM

dried up Bla bla bla. Rupert February 1, 2012 at 7:33 AM The Aryans were there

The Aryans were there before the Indus valley civilization and after that too is a conflicting statement because. there is no statement in Veda talks about this civilization. Man with IQ can understand this. And

there is no evidnece that the Indus valley people were there when Saraswathi dried up

that Aryans came there before it dried up. And in the rig veda period itself it got dried up. So the rig veda

completion is after Saraswathi river. so after BC1900 only the compilation was over. Problem solved.

That clearly means

the compilation was over. Problem solved. That clearly means 4 o f P r i n

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Param Vyas

January 30, 2013 at 11:58 AM

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

. wordpress . com /2011/03/15/ hindutva - crazies We must never muddle up the concept of

We must never muddle up the concept of the language and the concept of a script. Are there not people who are illiterate in England? Do they not speak English?

Vedas were written down much later because the script was invented later. The vedas were passed down the generations as songs. That is why they are written in meter that is apt for singing. It makes them much harder to trace.

Thus, even when we accept that the scipts appear around 3000-3500 ybp it does not conclusively put the top ceiling on their composition.

Reply

Ajay Sharma

February 3, 2013 at 11:26 PM

Hello Robert,

Reply Ajay Sharma February 3, 2013 at 11:26 PM Hello Robert, I would love to give

I would love to give you a point by point reply to every “question” you have brought up.

However, I would like to state that it is clear that you seem fairly biased and that you automatically equate any disagreement with the

“mainstream” dating as being a “hindutva crazy”.

The Saraswati River- If you are interested in this topic, I suggest you read “The Lost River” by Michel Danino for an impeccably researched

book on the significance of the Saraswati on the dating of the Rig Veda and Rig Vedic Peoples.

The saraswati river is very important in dating the rig veda because it is clear that the authors almost deified the river becuase its mighty

waters were the sustaining life force of the vedic culture and people. The Nadi Stuti Sukta of the Rig Veda CLEARLY lists the Rivers of the

Indus Valley moving WEST to EAST- Ganga, yamuna,Saraswati,sutudri, Parusni,Vitasta,Arjikiya, and Susoma. Therefore, the earliest references

to the Saraswati ARE NOT to the Helmand in Afghanistan as you falsey claimed. The rivers are clearly described in order from West to east.

Even western scholars agree that this description is from one of the oldest mandalas (books) of the Rig Veda. Leading hydrologists and

Geologists (Robert Raikes, R.D. Oldham, Marie Agnes- Courty,A.K. Grover, Peter Clift, M.A. Geyh, D. Ploethner) from all over the world

utilitizing multi spectral imaging and remote sensing (from NASA’s Landsat amongst other satellites) technologies have determined that the

other satellites) technologies have determined that the 5 o f P r i n t 5

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terminus ad quem (latest possible date) for the drying up of the Saraswati was 1900 B.C. However this process (caused by tectonic events) was

thought to be gradual from around 2600 BC to 1900 BC. And if you look at a map of most of the ancient archeological sites in India, they fall

along the dried up Saraswati River. This is further supported by radiometric dating done on the paleochanels by BARC scientists. The Rig Veda

clearly decribes the Saraswati as the “mighty river” which flows “like a deluge from the mountains to the sea.” It is a fact that the Rig

Vedic culture flourished while the river was mighty and declined along with the river. Therefore, at the very least the Rig Veda was composed

well before 2600 B.C.

Pyramids- I would never claim that the Vedic people built the pyramids however it is a fact that the Sulba Sutras show a clear understanding

of Pythogaras theorem as well as calculus (millenia before Newton the “founder” of Calculus!)

Astronomy- It is a fact that the vedic poeple had an extemely advanced knowledge of astronomy as well as obsessively recording astronomic

events. The location of Dhruva (the pole star) in the decribed celestial mansion, as well as the fact that the vernal equinox is placed in

the Mrigashira constellation are but two of the many astronomical examples in the Rig Veda that point to a date before 4000 B.C. This has

been calculated by the same software used by N.A.S.A. Read this article by John Brug- he uses astronomical events to date the Ancient

Iron- Iron is also very indicative of the antiquity of the Rig Veda. Ayas means metal in Sanskrit not necesarrily Iron. Hence “Pingala Ayas”

or red metal for copper. Furthermore, Possehl and Rissman (1992) have radiocarbon dated slag and other evidence of Iron working as far back

as 1679 B.C. (3210 years before present) as far south as Ramapuram, Andhra Pradesh- again bringing into doubt the theory that Aryan invaders

brought the knowledge of Iron to India. Stuiver and Reimer (1993) have also radiocarbon dated Iron slag and related evidence from strata

belonging to 1687 B.C. (about 3280 years before present) as far south as Veerapuram Andhra Pradesh. Tewari has radiocarbon dated Iron slag

from strata from 2100 B.C. (over 3600 years before present) but lets ignore these because he is but an Indain Scientist. Either way the

these because he is but an Indain Scientist. Either way the evidence is highly indicative that

evidence is highly indicative that advanced metallurgy already existed in India and that it was hardly from An

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

Aryan invasion circa 1500 B.C.

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I am sure more evidence will be unerathed in coming years further supporting this position.

IVC- There is no reason to claim that the IVC had already declined by the Vedic Times. These cultures are probably one and the same. This is

evidenced by the “priest- king statue” where the subject is wearing a vedic yagnopavitam which brahmins to this day (myself included) are

proud to wear. He also has his eyes half closed in meditation stylistically this is seen throughout Indian art. Look up the Pashupati seal in

which the Lord Shiva is depicted with three heads seated in yogic posture as pashupati (lord of all animals). Another Indus valley seal shows

a young boy uprooting a tree from which two human figures emerge. This episode is known as Yamalarjuna and is a depiction of Lord Krishna-

the two people coming out of the tree are cursed Gandharavas or celestial nymphs- Nalakubara and Manigriva. This is an EXACT depiction look

at the seal and read the story! Look up the crystal clear shiva lingas found at both kalibangan and Lothal both cities of the IVC. Also at

lothal, mohenjodaro and kalibangan vedic fire altars constructed to precise vedic specifications have been found.In addition to the swastika,

innumerable other Hindu motifs have been found at IVC sites. The same exact weights and measurements used by the IVC have been found in

perpetuity until the time of Chandragupta Maurya ( 300 B.C. I belive- contemporaneous to Megas Alexandras). Even the same IVC symbols and

motifs are used on Coins by Mauryan rulers.The ekashringa or one horned boar is clearly found on many IVC seals and is one of the dasavatara

(10 forms) of Vishnu.

I would love to hear a reply from you based on the evidence I have given…How can you possibly refute the antiquity and perpetuity of Indian

culture given all of this evidence?

And this isnt even bringing genetics into account. Linguistics may be interpreted but genetics dont lie. It is a FACT that Haplogroup R1a

originated in South Asia- Even mainstream western scientists agree with this.

Stephen Oppenhiemer (of Oxford) one of the worlds most eminent geneticists clearly states that- “South Asia is logically the ultimate origin

of M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran,

of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, 7 o f P r i

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and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia but diversity characterizes its presence in

isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan Invasion of India.’

Study of the geographical distribution and the diversity of genetic branches and stems again suggests that Ruslan, along with his son M17,

arose early in South Asia, somewhere near India, and subsequently spread not only south-east to Australia but also north, directly to Central

Asia, before splitting east and west into Europe and East Asia.”

While I am not making the mistake of equating R1a with Vedic culture- this is certainly very telling. Look up “Indo Aryan Superstate in

Mittani” The Indo Aryans were as far out as Asia Minor. They worshipped our gods- Agni, Indra, Mitra, Varuna- Thier names are clearly Aryan!

They even use aeka instead of the Iranian “aeva” placing them in the vicinity of the Indo Aryans Proper.

Your comment that there was no writing in India 7000 BP maybe true but you are forgetting that Sanskrit is a sacerdotal language which was

impeccably preserved.

It may not mean much to you but in High School I took Latin for 4 years and Studied A.P. latin and translated all of Julius Casears De Bello

Galici ( of the Gallic Wars). And I grew up learning, reciting, and speaking sanskrit (because I am a brahmin). Knowing both languages I can attest that Sanskrit is a far more archaic from of an IE language than Latin and retains many archaic features such as retroflex stops,

bilabial fricatives, pitch accents, trimoraic vowels, retroflex lateral approximants, and diphthongs. The inflection and usage of the

subjective mood is also indicative of a much more arachic language in my eyes.

What say you to all of this?

Sincerely,

Ajay Sharma

Reply

Robert Lindsay

February 4, 2013 at 2:58 AM

Ajay Sharma Reply Robert Lindsay February 4, 2013 at 2:58 AM Nothing. I simply reject everything

Nothing. I simply reject everything that you wrote, that’s all. I support the Aryan Incursion Theory, primarily on the impeccable linguistic grounds that support it. If you reject the AIT, then you must posit an Out of India Theory for Indo-European, which is obviously absolutely ridiculous.

for Indo-European, which is obviously absolutely ridiculous. 8 o f P r i n t 5

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Michael Witzel has taken apart the bits on astronomy and the Saraswati River very well. M17 is not IE. M17 goes back all the way to 17,000 YBP. Sure, maybe M17 originated in India 17,000 YBP, but that does negate the AIT. Also, M17 does not support the OIT, because IE only goes back 8-9,000 YBP. The Aryans had bronze. The Indians did not have bronze. They brought bronze with them.

The truth is that the AIT is supported by every single serious scholar on the face of the Earth, and the OIT is supported by none of them. The only humans who believe in the OIT and reject the AIT are Indian Hindus and their Hindutvadi followers. That ought to tell you something right there – that they are simply wrong.

One of the horrific things about modern day Hindus is that just about every single educated Hindu you meet is frankly a Hindutvadi fanatic. There’s simply no difference between a Hindutvadi and a Hindu anymore, with a few exceptions here and there.

Ajay Sharma

February 4, 2013 at 12:03 PM

here and there. Ajay Sharma February 4, 2013 at 12:03 PM Your response of “nothing” and

Your response of “nothing” and the fact that you failed to explain even a bit of the evidence I have given clearly shows your inability to

consider any position other than your own. As scientists we must strive to be objective rather than subjective as you clearly are. This is

certainly not how advances in science and knowledge are attained. On the contrary, this is how incorrect and outdated ideas such as

spontaneous generation, phlogiston theory, vitalism, phrenology, and the idea that the world is flat were perpetuated, impeding the progress

of science and delving into the realm of quackery. If the IVC was completely unrelated to Vedic Culture as you and Witzel (who is a

philologist- not an archeologist) claim why are Vedic Fire altars (built to very precise specifications), shiva lingas,and steatite seals

with hindu mythology doing in every IVC city?

You said ” I support the AIT, primarily on the impeccable linguistic grounds that support it.” I will demonstrate to you that there are many

internationally renowned linguists and philologists from all over the world who hold positions contrary to your esteemed Michael Witzel.

First of all since you are claiming that linguistics is the best evidence for the AIT (when in fact this is the weakest evidence to cite if

you are trying to support AIT), it would do you a lot of good to study the very history of linguistics.

The very founders of modern European linguistics ( a la Franz Bopp, Johannes Freidrich, Frits Staal, Roman Jacobson, Ferdinande de Saussure,

Frits Staal, Roman Jacobson, Ferdinande de Saussure, Louis Herbert Gray, Leonard Bloomfield, Carl Abel, George

Louis Herbert Gray, Leonard Bloomfield, Carl Abel, George Adler, Jules Bloch) themselves claimed to have been heavily influenced by Panini

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the Grammarian and Philologist from the 6th Century B.C. who was author of Astadhayi the first treatise on formal linguistics published by

humanity. It is widely accepted even by European Schoalars that European linguistics was only catalyzed by Europes contact with the work of

Sanskrit grammarians. In fact, Ferdinand de Saussure ( the founder of modern structural linguistics) himself claimed that the work of ancient

Indian grammarians significantly influenced his work- and that Panini was his greatest influence. These are all indisputable facts. Leonard

Bloomfield (the father of American Structuralism) and the esteemed Fritz Staal both cite Panini and Brthrihari his successor as their

greatest influence- and these are thier own words. Gottlob Frege puts it more explicity directly stating that without the work of Indian

Grammarians formal linguistics would not exist.

The interesting part of all of this is that Paninni was not even the most accomplished or oldest Vedic linguist. Paninni’s predecessor Yaska

(author of the Nirkuta) lived in the 8th Century B.C. and wrote about such complex linguistic forms as phenome, morphome, ablaut, pallatalas,

thematic presents, gerundives, aorists, just to name a few. Im sure you will be delighted to learn that Yaska himself was preceded by

Sakatayana ( who wrote the famous Lksana Shastra) of the the 9th Century B.C. Sakatayana was preceded by Ghritsamada and Shaunaka of the 11th

and 12th centuries B.C. respectively. The point is that the Vedic people had a complex system of formal linguistics which was unparalleled

anywhere in the world for about three thousand years until the Europeans discovered it, copied it, and applied it to various other languages.

Therefore, it is hilarious to assume that the Aryans came to India circa 1500 B.C. bearing Sanskrit- with such a well developed system of

formal linguistics in India extending to at least 1200 B.C. Furthermore, can you name one European culture that had a similar system of

linguistics? You cant because the Europeans didnt know what formal linguistics was until the 18th century when they started studying

Sanskrit. Sure the Ancient Greeks had rhetoric and logic (that too only started around the 4th or 5th century B.C.) but no knowledge of

formal linguistics.

or 5th century B.C.) but no knowledge of formal linguistics. Asko Parpola an indologist and Professor

Asko Parpola an indologist and Professor Emeritus of Indology (itself a highly biased and somewhat racist discipline) at the University of

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Helinski, Finland has refuted Micael Witzels arguements regarding his opinion on the influence of substrtum in vedic sanskrit many times. Do

you know what that is and why it is relevant to a debate involving the AIT?

Much of the evidence of dravidian substratum in Vedic used by Witzel was compiled by Thomas Burrow (Boden Professor of Sanskrit at Oxford).

By the end of his career he had redacted almost 380 of the 500 words he claimed were evidence of a dravidian substratum in Sanskrit. This

shines light on the sketchy evidence used by Witzel for making this arguement ( in my opinion one of his strongest arguements). Furthermore,

Paul Thieme (Professor of Indology at Gottingen, Breslau, Yale, and later the University of Tubingen) has clearly stated that the dravidian

etymologies for evidence of substratum in Sanskrit were wrong and he gives appropriate etymologies for these words (the few which burrow

didnt take back) in Sanskrit or Indo Aryan. Keep in mind Paul Thieme was one of the worlds foremost linguists and Indologists considered one

of the “last great indologists” was he a hindutva crazy too? This argument is further supported by Mayhoffer himself an expert in this field.

Hans Heinrich Hock the Professor Emeritus of Comparitive Linguistics and Sanskrit ( University of Illinois Urbana Champaign- Ph.d in

Linguistics from Yale) has directly attacked Witzels arguement stating that the various syntactical developments in Indo Aryan are the result

of Adstratum rather than substrate influences. This has also been supported by Bertil Tikkanen of the University of Helinski in Finland.

About retroflexion Tikkanen takes the following position- “in view of the strictly areal implications of retroflexion and the occurrence of

retroflexes in many early loanwords, it is hardly likely that Indo-Aryan retroflexion arose in a region that did not have a substratum with

retroflexes.”

DO you think all of these scientists ( most of them at the top of thier fields and none of them bieng Indian or hindu) are part of the

“hindutva conspiracy”? What do they have to gain?

Also you said “Witzel takes apart the arguments on the Saraswati very well” Care to elaborate? How can he refute radiometric dating when he

is but a philologist not a hydrologist, archeologist, or a paleohydrology expert like the scientists I have cited?

or a paleohydrology expert like the scientists I have cited? The hilarious part of the arguments

The hilarious part of the arguments of AIT supporters is that they are scrambling to find evidence for the

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

Pontic-Caspian Steppe hypothesis,

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

Armenian hypothesis, Kurgan Hypothesis, Anatolian hypthesis, or Bactria- Sogdianan hypothesis without understanding that Greater India easily

extended past Afghanistan into Modern day Eastern Iran, which is but a few hundred miles from these locations. I have already shown the Indo

Aryans to be in Asia Minor with An Indo Aryan elite imposing themselves upon the Hurrians and Mittani. You still didnt reply to the evidence

I cited showing them to use aeka instead of the Iranic Aeva. The kikulli manurscipt of the 14th century B.C. clearly shows Agni, Indra,

Mitra, and varuna bieng worshipped as well as thier names bieng clearly sanskrit names.

I would love to see what what you have to say to the enormous amounts of evidence I have presented. The scientists whose arguements I have

cited are some of the worlds foremost experts in their fields that too from many Ivy league schools. Are they somehow part of the hindutva

conspiracy too? how about you acutally use real scientific evidence to reply to what I have to say instead of “blah blah blah” or ” i refute

your argument”

I have been polite but in scientific discourse or debate your opinion or my opinion hardly matters it is clear concrete proof that matters.

And everyday the evidence is growing that AIT is an outdated and false fabrication. The very name of the out of india theory itself is

misleading becuase India today is but a small fraction of the great cuultural force it used to be. However it is a fact that the AIT theory

is losing precedence day by day and will be shelved to the vestiges of pseudoscience and scientific racism.

Lets hear what you have to say Robert I would love to continue this intellectual debate so long as you use real science and not your opinion

which means nothing to me.

Robert Lindsay

February 4, 2013 at 1:40 PM

nothing to me. Robert Lindsay February 4, 2013 at 1:40 PM The AIT theory is not

The AIT theory is not losing any adherents at all. 100% of world experts outside of India regard it as simple fact. Only hacks, kooks and nuts (oh and Indians!) continue to reject this obvious scientific fact, on the spurious grounds of insane Indian nationalism.

don’t know much about archeology. There may well have been some continuity between IVC and the later Aryans as the Aryans conquered to abandoned IVC, and it was abandoned, BTW.

I

conquered to abandoned IVC, and it was abandoned, BTW. I 1 2 o f P r

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The so-called linguists who reject AIT and instead support OIT are all kooks, nuts, fakes and frauds (oh and Indians too, I forget!). We have already dealt with their so-called evidence in prior posts. There was no OIT movement for Indo-European. IE did not begin in India as psycho Indian lunatics insist. No one, but no one, but no one believes that IE came out of India. No one other than insane Indians.

Also you psycho Hindu fool, I am banning you on the grounds of hostile tone. Now go back to your filthy Hindu shithole.

Robert Lindsay

February 4, 2013 at 1:47 PM

Hindu shithole. Robert Lindsay February 4, 2013 at 1:47 PM Asko Parpola is a looney tune

Asko Parpola is a looney tune nutcase. You Hindu dogs deserve a “racist discipline” like Indology. It’s perfect for you because it’s impossible to study you without turning racist against you because you are so abhorrent. Most of the linguists you mentioned, especially Hock, support the AIT and reject the OIT.

Dota

February 4, 2013 at 8:49 PM

the AIT and reject the OIT. Dota February 4, 2013 at 8:49 PM Romila Thapur also

Romila Thapur also lists further evidence that the Rig Veda references flora and fauna unfamiliar to the Harrapans while the latter feature flora and fauna (on their seals) that are unfamiliar to the Rig Veda text. She lists this as further evidence of an outside incursion into India. I’ve got her book around here somewhere, I’ll post a reference if I can.

HS DEEPAK ATREYAS

March 26, 2013 at 12:31 PM

if I can. HS DEEPAK ATREYAS March 26, 2013 at 12:31 PM hats off ajay sharma

hats off ajay sharma continue you have done great thing, what ever the blal bla historians like robert lindsey say, the indian knowledge will not vanish they donot know the inherent strength of these vedas they are all biased historians ,my sincear suggestion to them is come and live in india at different parts of india then they will realize the true strength of the indian knowledge i.e vedas deepakhiriyur@gmail.com

Dota-Player

March 15, 2011 at 9:47 PM

Dota-Player March 15, 2011 at 9:47 PM A few things need to be said and clarified

A few things need to be said and clarified here seeing as how shocked some of you people are at the intense bullshit coming out of Hindutva sources.

First

Hindutva ‘scholars’ are usually a bunch of hatemongers at their core without any actual qualifications who generally quote dubious sources. The point is not to convince western readers (it would never work) but to dupe Indians living in the motherland and abroad. These individuals are extremely intellectually dishonest and in a place like India, they are taken quite seriously. These people play the communal card to consolidate the vote bank for the hard line and Hindu fascist BJP party. For example, some Hindutvadis have attempted to smear the name of Tipu Sultan by claiming he oppressed Hindus and Christians. After some looking up, I realized that many of these bogus claims came

looking up, I realized that many of these bogus claims came 1 3 o f P

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from a highly dubious source called the “Malabar manual” published in the 18th century by William Logan. The British would often circulate false reports about Muslim atrocities against Hindus to undermine Indian nationalism. However, the Hindutvadis have no qualms quoting such a document while also stating how evil the British were. Since the Hindutvadis were essentially doing the Brit’s dirty work, no major leader of theirs was ever prosecuted by the Brits (to my knowledge). Other genuine Indian patriots such as Bhagat Singh, Ram Prasad and Ashfaq were executed and killed in combat. Gandhi was assasinated by a member of the Hindutva RSS party, which is now the head organization of the ‘sangh parivar’ in India.

Here’s another amusing article about how the Muslim Qabaa was originally a Hindu temple http://krishnajkaaba.blogspot.com/

Notice that the article bears the typical Hindutva touch by failing to quote any sources or using any references. Again, this is for the Indians’ benefit, not westerners.

“””””The article claims that the Om symbol appears in the Taj. I don’t know if it’s true, but what if it is? It’s a matter of historical record that many Moghul rulers tended to be as syncretist as it was possible to be while still identifying as Muslims. One of them (Babar, I think) actually seriously explored creating his own religion.””””””

That was Akbar, who created a hybrid Hindu/Islam religion called “deen-e-ilahi” The religion wasn’t very popular, but showed the Mogul’s commitment to pluralism and tolerance. Aurangzeb was the exception.

Now for Robert’s post

couple of points:

1) “””I am not sure why Hindutvas want to push the dating the Rig Vedas back so far. Can anyone help me here?””””””

You partially answered your own question in the following 2 paragraphs, however, remember the Hindutva rule of thumb: Hinduism IS indigenous to India. So even if there was an Aryan migration into India, they were merely balled over by this noble religion and converted into it, rather than introducing it.

2) “””The Egyptian pyramids had to have been built using ancient Indian mathematical knowledge.””””

Another absurd claim, but there is a method to their madness. Hindutva initially began as a highly xenophobic and fascist ideology that has in the last decade also become extremely chauvinistic. It is not uncommon for these people to now take credit for the heritages of other peoples. Claims such as the Indians helped the Egyptians build the pyramids and that the Pre-Islamic Arabs were also Hindus (thus cementing the Hindutva view that Islam was opposed to Hinduism from the very start!) are now fairly common place in Hindutva literature.

3) “””The Aryan Invasion Theory was used by Hitler to commit genocide.”””

This last point is a shocking example of Hindutva duplicity. It’s common knowledge that the architects of the Hindutva, savarkar and Moonje were openly supportive of Nazism. In fact, Moonje even personally met up with Musolini in 1931 to get a first hand tutorial in fascism. This pro nazi policy has led some political analysts in recent decades to comment on the strange alliance between Hindutva and zionism.

I’m going to post again tomorrow if I have the time. I’ll post on Muslim Indian nationalism in your other thread. Indian Muslim nationalists have their share of crazies too, amusing, in a pathetic sort of way.

Sorry for the long post and please excuse any typos, as its a little late =p

Reply

and please excuse any typos, as its a little late =p Reply Rupert 1 4 o

Rupert

excuse any typos, as its a little late =p Reply Rupert 1 4 o f P

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

April 7, 2011 at 4:36 PM

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

. wordpress . com /2011/03/15/ hindutva - crazies The Rigveda dates are really questionable. Its written

The Rigveda dates are really questionable. Its written in Sanskrit. But initially sanskrit doesn’t have any scripts to keep it in written form. So it is transferred from one generation to the next generation in the oral form. And the geographical notes clearly says that the developer moved from west Afghanistan to northwest India. It clearly shows the invasion of some group from Europe to India. The Sanskrit language had so-many derived words from European origin languages. (Example: word – warda_ha, duo – do, three – tri. septum – sapta, Gen – Gen, Book – Pusthak, Jwel – joli, mid – math, etc…)

Early Rigveda is not Austro-asiatic (south Asian) nature. But the later Rigveda has so many derived words from Dravidian languages. And in the later version the style is greatly influenced by the Tamil book Tholkappiyam (tholkaappiyam). The scholars suggest that 7th century BC may be the Tholkappiyam’s date. So the latter Rigveda cannot be dated before 7th century BC.

There is a strong reason why the Hindutva wants to push the date back. They want to prove that the Hindu is the native religion of India. There are many works like Tholkappiyam don’t talk about Hindu Gods. Those books mostly favour the natural worships. But the Hindutva want to say “On the time of mentioned natural worship started Hindu had come to existence already” so it is necessary for them to push the date back. And Rigveda is the oldest religious book. This is why they want to push it back.

And the mythical stories like Ramayana & Mahabaratha has no historical evidence. But if the Ramayana & Mahabaratha is proved as a great lie. Then total Hindutva will become baseless. So they wanted to make it pre-historic. So pushing back the date of Rigveda as before as possible will definitely help to do that.

And Rigveda is one of the oldest book for Sanskrit. Sanskrit is also a non Dravidian language of India. And Sanskrit people wanted to show Sanskrit is older than the Dravidian language and the Dravidian people wanted to show Dravidian is the oldest language. This race is to make themselves as the native people of India. Sanskrit people claims Tamil (purest Dravidian language in India) is derived from Sanskrit. But the Tamil has its grammar book, Tholkappiyam dated 7th – 3rd century BC. That clearly states that Tamil has come to a well grown farm before 7th – 3rd century BC. And Tholkappiyam is from the 3rd Tamil Congress (3rd Tamil Sangam) there are some notes or statements in old Tamil poetical works talking about the date and rulers of the 1st & 2nd Tamil Sangam (There is no material evidence has been found favoring this statements.). If it is proved to be true then the date, when the Tamil obtained developed nature, will be pushed 2-7 millennium before the current date. So to make others believe, the Sanskrit peoples have to prove that Sanskrit had obtained its developed form well before Tamil and hence Sanskrit was the base for Tamil to born and develop. But this claim can be considered rubbish as Tamil & early Rigvedic Sanskrit has no similarities. And the later scripts Indo-Aryan nature. Indirectly it can be called Dravidian-Aryan (Tamil-Aryan) nature.

The Sanskrit lovers (major Hindutva people) win the support of others in the name of God first. And then they did it with a famous quote “Sanskrit is the language of God”. There are many people believe that God has taught language to mankind and all other languages are derived from that. So if the God’s language is Sanskrit then the first language would be Sanskrit. So if Sanskrit or the oldest Sanskrit work is dated after other native Indian languages like Tamil (purest Dravidian). Then no one will believe in Hindutva. This is why they are always trying to push the date as before as possible…

Reply

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worked out. I thought my little research would never be considered. But at last it got posted. Thanks for posting my reply. Here are some more evidence to predict the proper date of the Rigveda

1. Aryan invasion(in India) also suggests that Aryans might have migrated to India from northwest. This doesn’t mean

nobody was there at the time of migration. So can be called as a invasion.

2: There is a strong evidence in the Rigveda for the migration from north west. (The geographical information given in Rigveda changes from the beginning of the Book to the end in a sequence supporting the migration from the northwest.

3.The migration derived from the Rigveda cannot be date back before Indus valley civilization. Because then it should be dated before B.C. 7000. The language spoken by the present people at that place is a Indo-Aryan(Sanskrit) derived language. So if it is dated back before B.C.7000. The period of Sanskrit derived language speaking people will become B.C.7000 to till date. But the Indus people (B.C.7000 – B.C.1300) had spoken a language which is almost clueless till date. This suggests there would not be any overlap in time. This clearly shows the mistake in the prediction of any one of the date. Carbon aging calculations proves the Indus valley period. So the mistake would only happen in the date of the migration. It can only be dated back before and cannot be date back before Indus valley civilization. (From that it is confirmed that Rigveda is after Indus valley civilization. I am putting forward the further points on the basis of this fact).

4. Indus valley civilization itself has crossed the entire Bronze age (3300 – 1300 BCE, source: http://en.wikipedia.org

/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization). If the migration happened after the Indus valley civilization as mentioned in point 3, Rigveda can not be dated back before B.C 1300.

5. There are several evidence which suggests the period of Indus valley and the Rigveda cannot be overlapped.

(A)There is no reference in Rigveda about the big cities or important places found in Indus valley. (B)There is no evidence in Rigveda about the Indus peoples architectural skills. (C)There is no evidence in Rigveda about the tubed drainage found in Indus valley. (D)There is no evidence in Rigveda about the. (E) There is no evidence in Rigveda

about water reservoir or ponds found in Indus valley. (D) There is no evidence in Rigveda about water Urn burials found in Indus valley.

6. The Rigveda people might not even know about Indus valley as the civilization had been destroyed without a trace.

This suggest the migration could happen long after the Indus valley civilization.

7. The Rigvedic people might not even know about cottons. This could happen if they had an alternate source.

Reply

Mayank Sharma

July 30, 2011 at 4:21 AM

source. Reply Mayank Sharma July 30, 2011 at 4:21 AM It seems that the writer of

It seems that the writer of the above articles has lost his analytical skills and he is biased with AMT He is possessed by AMT AND over looks all the facts presented by Hindu scholars. This gentleman is low at IQ level. He should thorougly study Indian religious scriptures and help himself to over come this narrow minded and biased attitude. He would do really good, if he comes to India and spend some time here with enlightened souls.

Reply

Rupert

August 19, 2011 at 12:08 AM

enlightened souls. Reply Rupert August 19, 2011 at 12:08 AM The people who don’t have analytical

The people who don’t have analytical skill should not blame others. Please give evidence and then comment. I am

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an Indian have studied Indian religious scriptures also. The low IQ man cannot get the science support in finding out the truth. And the man with narrow minded and the biased attitude will not listen to a man speaking with evidence. The biased people will not think beyond which they were bound (here it is religious bound). The narrow minded people will not accept others, even though they come with strong reason or evidence. The people read this blog will clearly understand who has analytical skill and who don’t have, who has IQ and who don’t have, who is broad minded and unbiased and who is not.

Reply

Robert Lindsay

Robert Lindsay

August 19, 2011 at 3:41 AM

Thx for the compliment, Mr. Indian.

Reply

Vinod

Vinod

July 19, 2012 at 9:13 AM

When someone told mr Lindsay about Sarasvati river here is what he have to say :-

“Bla bla bla bla Sarasvati Bla bla bla Vedas Bla bla bla 1900 BC Bla bla bla river dried up Bla bla bla.”

No i suppose MR. Lindsay is showing his analytical skills here in the fav language of AIT scholars (AIT:- An idiot’s theory) the PIE. lol idiots are writing blogs these days…

Reply

Abhishek Tiwari

Abhishek Tiwari

December 8, 2012 at 9:06 PM

i agree with you mr. sharma !

Reply

Robert Lindsay

Robert Lindsay

December 8, 2012 at 9:12 PM

All right, I am banning you.

Reply

Brahma

Brahma

December 26, 2012 at 5:02 PM

Dear Mr.Lindsay … i suppose you’d believe everything that can be collaborated with some evidence abstract or otherwise. Please don’t take offense to what I’m about to say, its not my culture to hurl abuse or insult at anyone per se, so I apologies in advance if it would even slightly hurt your thoughts or perspective Had their been no medical advancement in DNA profiling and testing to confirm paternity of an individual, your only way to know that you were born of a single father would’ve been your mother … you just cant call anyone ‘Father/Daddy’ …. its the mother who points you to a person and tells you that he’s

mother who points you to a person and tells you that he’s 1 7 o f

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your daddy. And do you ask your mother for evidence … you just believe outright and start calling him

Daddy

your five senses – eyes – to see, nose- to smell, mouth – to taste, ears – to hear and hands – to feel. But

yet with all these mechanisms and the latest advancements in science I suppose you still believe what your mom said and has continued to call that person your father and I’m sure he is. Seeing or hearing or touching does not produce truth …. its a merely complicated reality that manifests itself in the most unappreciated moments provided it is sought. When you comment about a culture or a civilization that is

not known to you or your near dear ones

venture out and about to seek the truth … only and only then you will see the real deal. You say that you’re

an Indian, I have my own reasons to believe that you’re not, even if you are you’d most probably be a half bred Indian living abroad thinking the best place on earth is far away from India …. to know India and the

people who lived there, the civilization you should first know the true spirit of India – your best bet is to spent some quality time with a self-realized soul … somewhere deep inside the Himalayas would be a better start. Having said that Self REALIZATION is not something you can find in a Walmart store, its

beyond your understanding

send himself to moon because he could see it from earth, so to say if you can see it, you can achieve it. Good luck

my point here is not to tell you that you should believe everything you possibly can with the help

rather than pressing your perspective on others you should

but if you seek truth with an open mind, you shall receive!. Man was able to

Manoj Pashte

January 12, 2012 at 5:49 AM

Man was able to Manoj Pashte January 12, 2012 at 5:49 AM Robert first of all

Robert first of all get your facts clear. 1)Aryan is not a race it was only stated by Max Muller later he also retracted from the same. Arya means a righteous and a noble man and Arya means a righteous and a noble women. The terms are widely used in the sanskrit language and written in many scriptures.

2)The Saraswati river existed and was in full flow from about 9000 yrs ago from today due to earthquakes the river dissapeared.

3)Mohenjodaro was never destroyed by war but it was abandoned due to shortage of water as the river subsided due to upheavels in the crust.

4)The Rig Veda does not find mention of any city lying in the far north of Europe or also in the mediterenian. This is proof enough that the people of India are not intruders as has been shown to be by the European history writers. Will write back

5)The astronomical proofs in the Rig Veda have to be taken into account.

Reply

Robert Lindsay

January 12, 2012 at 6:37 AM

Yadda yadda yadda yadda.

Reply

Atul Kanagat

January 28, 2013 at 3:15 PM

yadda yadda. Reply Atul Kanagat January 28, 2013 at 3:15 PM 1 8 o f P

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

That shows a high IQ, I suppose….

Reply

Rajeev

February 1, 2012 at 7:14 AM

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

. wordpress . com /2011/03/15/ hindutva - crazies Hello Manoj, Why are we wasting time trying

Hello Manoj, Why are we wasting time trying to convince this ( Lindsay “Lohan” ) obviously bigoted and biased ” pseudo- intellectual”. His IQ is the level of a school boy ,,,, which is evident from his childish ramblings,,, a ploy no doubt he adopted when he could not find any reply ,,,, if he had any intention of joining in a civil debate he would not have resorted to this deliberately insulting/ childish language.

Anyway,,, I came across a scholarly analysis by Mr , Michael Danino ( The Lost River ISBN 9780143068648 , Penguin Books ) which makes it clear that the Indus Valley Civilization was actually also the Saraswati Civilization , as is evident by several hundreds of Harrapan like cities found scattered around the dried river bed located in Haryana, Northern Rajasthan , Cholistan ( Pakistan ) and Gujarat ( North of the Rann of Kutch ) . As this river dried out between 2600 to 1900 BC , the Vedas that refer to a fast flowing Saraswati and which have correctly mentioned the location of this river as being between Yamuna and Sutlej, must have been composed around 3000BC , in INDIA. However the theory that Aryans went OUT OF INDIA , just does not hold water . Infact archeologists are puzzled by the sudden appearance of the Indus Valley civilization around 3500 BC,,, they could not find signs of the cities being inhabited prior to this date,,, as they have found in the case of the Egyptian and Sumerian Cities.

To me this is because the people who founded the Indus Valley Civilization were none other than the Aryans and they migrated into India around 3600 BC ( not at 1900 to 1500 BC as has been believed ) . This explains the numerous similarities between the Indus Valley Artifacts and the present form of Hinduism , ( which has developed after the Saraswati river dried out the Saraswati Aryans migrated further east and settled in the Gangetic plain .)

I think that the synthesis of data from the various scientific disciplines , such as geology, climatology and archeology are now making it difficult for anyone to prove that the dried out river bed of a large river in Northern River is not the “mythical” river that the Aryans so loved– the Saraswati . And this provides the proof that the Vedas and the Mahabharata were composed at a much earlier date than that which was thought in the past.

Reply

Robert Lindsay

Robert Lindsay

February 1, 2012 at 7:16 AM

Ok you’re banned elephant jockey.

Reply

Rupert

Rupert

February 3, 2012 at 2:53 AM

There are evidences there that Indus valley people were living on the banks of the river till BC.2000. But no materials were unearthed from the river. that indicates. The river wasn’t dried up. And the rig veda is not saying about the people of Indus valley. If the Rigveda was composed before rig veda it would say

If the Rigveda was composed before rig veda it would say 1 9 o f P

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about Indus Valley people. At the least it would leave a clue on this. Rig veda talks about the drying of saraswathi river too. This indicates Rig Veda had been completed after Saraswathi river dried up. And even now the people in that area are speaking the sanskrit derived languages. Before and after Indus valley civilization aryan lived or sanskrit people live or the people who composed Rigveda lived. But they didn’t know about Indus Valley people is an conflicting statement. The people having true intellectuals can understand this.

& Coming to Mahabharata. It was written after Ramayana. If Rama lived too early he wouldn’t have needed to build bridge to reach SriLanka. Even 60 years back people were used to go Vivekanda rock, which is inside the see now, by walk. Still many people were able to swim across the sea to reach Srilanka from India. They are able to do it because. The place is not actually very deep. This says Ramayana is written much later. & Ramayana doesn’t talk about the ports, harbours & capitals of South Indian Kings like Pandyan. What ever the names given to the Rude man (Asuras) in Ramayana. We can find a great Tamil king with the same name. Ramayana is a big story made to dominate the South Indians, especially who spoke Tamil in the name of Asuras. & the Mythology itself is saying Mahabharata itself is several generations later to Ramayana. And the linguistic research says that it was composed at 1st century AD.

And one more sad thing is people are claiming that sanskrit is the first language of the world. And all the other languages were born as the people pronounce sanskrit words incorrect. And this is never ever supported by Linguistic research

Vinod

Vinod

July 19, 2012 at 9:14 AM

Do u know anything else other than banning lol idiot

Robert Lindsay

Robert Lindsay

July 19, 2012 at 9:55 AM

Yes I know how to ban you, slumdog.

Good God, another retarded Hindu intellectual. Pitiful!

Manoj Pashte

Manoj Pashte

February 3, 2012 at 3:05 AM

Hello Rajeev I must agree with you that the language which Robert uses is unparliamentary. I would like to point out to you that Aryan is not a race as I have alredy specified in my earlier note. According to the European Indologists the identification of Sandrocottus (325 B.C.) of the Greeks with Chandragupta Maurya by Sir Jones was considered to be the “sheet anchor” and based on this assumption, a chronology of Indian history was constructed. We have to remember that there are 2 Chandragupta in Indian history. One is Chandragupta Maurya of the Maurya dynasty and the other Chandragupta is of the Gupta dynasty. The identification of Sandrocottus (325 B.C.) of the Greeks with Chandragupta Maurya by Sir Jones is incorrect for many reasons. The foremost being that the Greek chronicles do not mention of Chanakya the Guru of Chandragupta, Bindusar (Son) and Ashok(Grandson) of Chandragupta.

Bindusar (Son) and Ashok(Grandson) of Chandragupta. 2 0 o f P r i n t 5

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The Greek records mention Xandramas and Sandrocyptus as the kings immediately before and after Sandrocottus. These names in any way are not phonetically similar to Mahapadma Nanda and Bindusar, who were the predecessor and successors of Chandragupta Maurya, respectively. However, if Sandrocottus refers to Chandragupta of the Gupta dynasty, the Xandramas reckons to be his predecessor Chandrashree alias Chandramas and Sandrocyptus to be Samudragupta.

Coming back to the age of the Rig Veda

Hymn XL. Indra. Surya. Atri. 1. COME thou to what the stones have pressed, drink Soma, O thou Soma’s Lord, Indra best Vrtra-slayer Strong One, with the Strong.

2 Strong is the stone, the draught is strong, strong is this Soma that is pressed, Indra, best Vrtra-slayer, Strong One with the Strong.

3 As strong I call on thee the Strong, O Thunder-armed, with various aids, Indra, best Vrtra-slayer, Strong One with the Strong.

4 Impetuous, Thunderer, Strong, quelling the mighty, King, potent, Vrtra-slayer, Soma-drinker,

May he come hither with his yoked Bay Horses; may Indra gladden him at the noon libation.

5 O Surya, when the Asura’s descendant Svarbhanu, pierced thee through and through with darkness,

All creatures looked like one who is bewildered, who knoweth not the place where he is standing.

6 What time thou smotest down Svarbhanu’s magic that spread itself beneath the sky, O Indra,

By his fourth sacred prayer Atri discovered Surya concealed in gloom that stayed his function.

7 Let not the oppressor with this dread, through anger swallow me up, for I am thine, O Atri. Mitra art thou, the sender of true blessings: thou and King Varuna be both my helpers.

8 The Brahman Atri, as he set the press-stones, serving the Gods with praise and adoration,

Established in the heaven the eye of Surya, and caused Svarbhanu’s magic arts to vanish.

9 The Atris found the Sun again, him whom Svarbhanu of the brood

Of Asuras had pierced with gloom. This none besides had power to do.

“An interesting chronological marker is the solar-eclipse described in RgVeda5:40:5-9(given above is the full hymn of book 5 of the Rig Veda). It is described as a central, non-total eclipse which took place on the afternoon on the Kurukshetra meridian on a given day after summer solstice. The interesting thing about this event, vis-a-vis an argument, is that it does not involve measuring angles, there is no scope of error, and it involves the Sun, the identification of which can not be questioned for any reason at all by the “conservative school”. There is only one day that satisfies that condition described – 26th July 3928BC”

There are many more proofs but later about that Rajeev. Robert once again the proofs glaring at you are ignored by you. May you find the right path and may God bless you.

Reply

May you find the right path and may God bless you. Reply Xera February 3, 2012

Xera

February 3, 2012 at 6:55 AM

It does not matter what he says, the main point is that India is a shithole thats not going to go anywhere in the

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

near future.

Reply

Manoj Pashte

February 4, 2012 at 12:46 AM

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

. wordpress . com /2011/03/15/ hindutva - crazies Xera dont talk besides the point involved. We

Xera dont talk besides the point involved. We are talking about the rig Veda. You are a non entity to say anything about India what you think is of no importance.

Reply

Xera

February 4, 2012 at 5:50 AM

is of no importance. Reply Xera February 4, 2012 at 5:50 AM No thats the point

No thats the point that Robert was trying to make in relation to India, and c’mon you & I know India will never amount to anything much in the future.

Jaipal

June 2, 2012 at 6:18 AM

@Xera,

much in the future. Jaipal June 2, 2012 at 6:18 AM @Xera, Its funny how Xera

Its funny how Xera who comes from shithole Egypt talks so much about other races. Egyptians are nothing. Xera talks about strenght and what not but look at Egypt’s history of 2000 plus years of foreign domination. He even admits that he’s a mutt, a product of multiple rape by outsiders! He should have some shame! But as you pointed out quite correctly, he’s a low-IQ sand-nigger with sand for brains!

One of their ex-Premiers, Anwar Sadat, observing Egypt’s history sarcastically remarked that he was the first genuine Egyptian to come rule Egypt in more than 2000 years!!

Egyptian to come rule Egypt in more than 2000 years!! 2 2 o f P r

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

Jaipal

June 2, 2012 at 6:26 AM

@Xera,

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

. wordpress . com /2011/03/15/ hindutva - crazies India has developed its own nuclear and missile

India has developed its own nuclear and missile programmes! Something your shithole Egypt has never done. We just tested a 5000 km missile that could nuke your shithole Egypt if we wanted to! A couple years back we sent a mooncraft to the moon! What the fuck has Egypt done?? You guys are fuckin beggars before America living on American financial handouts just so your pathetic country can stay afloat! LOL LOL!!! What have you guys got to show after 40 fuckin years of handouts, huh?? Have you become a developed country?? Egypt will go nowhere, though India might if its governance improves.

Now, go to your sandbox and fuck your camel and drink camel piss! Your religion is “PISS-SLAM”

camel and drink camel piss! Your religion is “PISS-SLAM” 2 3 o f P r i

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

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Rupert

Rupert

February 3, 2012 at 6:58 AM

Forgetting linguistic research find outs. And interpreting the text as they wanted is a big fault.

Reply

Manoj Pashte

Manoj Pashte

February 4, 2012 at 12:57 AM

linguistics is not the only proof. there are other proofs which you tend to overlook

you talk about the invasion of the city of Mohenjodaro by the Aryans (by the way Aryan is not a race). In fact only about 37 skeletons of the period to which you attribute the invasion have been unearthed in the excavation of the walled city of Mohenjodaro. For your information all the 37 skeletons unerthed were observed to be properly buried NOT MASSACRED. The absence of arrow heads and weapons show that there was no war. Why is this fact not taken note of?

the river Euphrates or for that matter any other river from the mediterranian or from northern europe does not find mention in the Rig Veda. The land which is described in the Rig Veda is the land from the Himalays to the Indian ocean in the south and the land from Iran to east India. The religious places of the followers of the Sanatan Dharma are in India and not out side in Europe.

the city of Dwarka has also been unearthed in the Gulf of Khambat (Cambay). the carbon dating of the artefacts discovered goes back to 8000 yrs.

Ashva in sanskrit means horse and the word occurs many times in the Rig Veda.

Ayas in sanskrit means iron

Modern science also clearly authenticates the proof.

Reply

Rupert

February 5, 2012 at 9:57 PM

the proof. Reply Rupert February 5, 2012 at 9:57 PM Yes. It cannot be called as

Yes. It cannot be called as invasion. In first post I’ve said it

horse. In fact there were no symbols found with horse. in Indus valley civilization. But at the initial stage the symbol of Ox’s were modified to look alike horse. Recently it was found that those symbol were modified. And original symbols Oxs symbol were found. And the architecture of Indus valley people has no clue Rig veda.

It is migration. And thank you for reminding me about

No one can prove that the unearthed city is the city mentioned in RigVeda. Rig veda and Indus valley civilization was on the same territory. So it can be either Rig-veda’s or Indus valley people’s. If the city is Rig-veda’s then prove with architectural evidences and things which the people used. For your information this have connections with Indus valley people through out the entire region.

Inidan ocean can be mentioned in Rig-veda that doesn’t mean that they have lived there. that means they had knowledge about that.

Reply

lived there. that means they had knowledge about that. Reply 2 4 o f P r

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

Manoj Pashte

February 7, 2012 at 11:51 PM

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

. wordpress . com /2011/03/15/ hindutva - crazies The Vedic people were indigenous people there was

The Vedic people were indigenous people there was no migration or invasion. The theory of migration or invasion have no proofs documentary or archiological. The evidence against any such invasion or migration is more or less non existent. To begin with, (Vedic) sites spread over such a vast stretch, measuring well over a thousand miles would not have been all abandoned simultaneously due to the incursion of (the so called)nomadic bands at one extremity. Further, there is profuse archaeological evidence including the presence of sacrificial altars that go to show that the Harappans were part of the Vedic fold.

” The late Vedic literature includes mathematical texts known as the Sulba-sutras which contain detailed instruction for the building of sacrificial altars. After a study spanning more than 20 years, the distinguished American mathematician and historian of science, Abraham Seidenberg showed that the Sulba-sutras are the source of both Egyptian and old Babylonian mathematics. The Egyptian texts based on the Sulba-sutras go back to before 2,000 BCE. This provides independent comfirmation that Indian mathematical knowledge existed long before that date, i.e. during the height of the Harappan era. The sulba-sutras are part of the vedic religious literature known as the Kalpasutras. They were created originally to serve as technical manuals for the design and construction of Vedic altars. As previously noted, Harappan sites contain many such altars, a fact that supplies a link between Vedic literature and Harappan archaeology. It serves also to show that the Vedic literature could not have been brought in by any invaders – they were needed for building the altars that are very much part of the Harappan archaeology! The sulba-sutra are the oldest mathematical texts known. A careful comparison of the sulba-sutras with the mathematics of Egypt and old Babylonia led Abraham Seidenberg to conclude:

“… the elements of ancient geometry found in Egypt and old Babylonia stem from a ritual system of the kind found in the Sulba-sutras.” What is interesting is that the origins of ancient mathematics are to be found in religion and ritual. So the great engineering feats of the Harappans can be seen as secular off-shoots of the religious mathematics found in Vedic literature. The ‘ritual mathematics’ in the Sulba-sutras led eventually to the purely secular achievements of the Harappans like city planning and the design of harbours”.

The proofs are every where and for every one to see one just needs to see.

Reply

Rupert

February 8, 2012 at 12:19 AM

just needs to see. Reply Rupert February 8, 2012 at 12:19 AM The other civilizations learn

The other civilizations learn maths from veda is wrong. Veda people might have got their knowledge from other civilization people (Egyptian & Babylonian). The linguistic research or any other language research doesn’t support that the harappan language has similarity with Sanskrit, the language in which the Vedas are written. And earlier the harappan language was tried to grouped with Sanskrit. But now the research says noway we can group it with Sanskrit.

And Sanskrit also now assumed to be a derived language of “Dravidian & European”. Then suggesting an age of Sanskrit before Greek and Latin is incorrect. If the Sanskrit is younger how can the Vedas written in Sanskrit will be older.

In any civilization sacrifices is almost common. It cannot be said that they got the source from Vedas.

Reply

It cannot be said that they got the source from Vedas. Reply 2 5 o f

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

Manoj Pashte

February 11, 2012 at 9:19 AM

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

. wordpress . com /2011/03/15/ hindutva - crazies Rupert you have to get your facts right.

Rupert you have to get your facts right. It is not only me but the experts also who have now started looking into the proofs that maths was learnt from the vedic people. In my earlier post I had stated about the excavation of the city of Dwarka. You have in one of your earlier posts stated that you have read the scriptures of India. You have not read the scriptures because if you had read you would not have been confused about the city of Dwarka being a city mentioned in the Rig Veda. The carbon dating (I hope you believe in science) of the artefacts unearthed goes beyound 8000 B.C. The city of Dwarka is the city of Lord Krishna described in the Mahabharata. Now if the city of Dwarka can be dated to 8000 B.C. it is an admitted position that the rig veda was prior to the Mahabharata. It is now for you to work on that.

There is no documentary or any other proof to show that mathematics has been learnt by the people of vedic era from the Egyptians or the Babylonians. It is fact the other way round. There is plethora of work done by mathematicians all over the world which studies point to only one way that mathamatics has traveled from the Vedic people to the other civilisations.

It is regretful that people blieve in the assumptions drawn by people who had no knowledge about interpreting the Sanskrit language. Assumption that the Sanskrit language is derived from the Dravidian and European language is totally misleading. Latin and Greek languages are the basis for the European languages. When Sanskrit was the language of the vedic people there was no dravidian language. Admittedly Sanskrit was and is prior to Greek and Latin.

As is the caseof the Aryan race so is the case of the Dravidian race. Both are non existent. Genetic science has proved that all the people of the sub continent are indeginous people there is no outside trait in these people. As we understand it today the so called Aryans and the so called Dravidians are of the same race as that of the Vedic people.

The writing of the Harrapa is not yet deciphered and hence no one talk about it being similar or not with Sanskrit.

Yes sacrifices are common in all civilisations. Rupert I was not talking about sacrifices. I was talking about building scrificial altars and for that one requires the knowledge of not only mathematics but also of geometry which the vedic people had and that(knowledge) is what is written in the Sulbha Sutras.

So Rupert one just has to keep a open mind for knowledge to flow in.

Reply

Dota

February 11, 2012 at 12:42 PM

to flow in. Reply Dota February 11, 2012 at 12:42 PM “There is no documentary or

“There is no documentary or any other proof to show that mathematics has been learnt by the people of vedic era from the Egyptians or the Babylonians. It is fact the other way round. There is plethora of work done by mathematicians all over the world which studies point to only one way that mathamatics has traveled from the Vedic people to the other civilisations. ”

Gotta love classical Hindutva propaganda, ie India is the mother of human civilization. period. Well Manoj, I take it that pre Islam Arabs were also Hindus perhaps?

Reply

Manoj Pashte

pre Islam Arabs were also Hindus perhaps? Reply Manoj Pashte 2 6 o f P r
pre Islam Arabs were also Hindus perhaps? Reply Manoj Pashte 2 6 o f P r

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

February 13, 2012 at 8:04 AM

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

. wordpress . com /2011/03/15/ hindutva - crazies preislamic arabs were pagan worshipers. beleiving in many

preislamic arabs were pagan worshipers. beleiving in many gods. if you read the arabian tales in the right prospective you would come to know the religious beliefs of the pre islamic arab world. Dota do not argue for the sake of arguments. the pre islamic arabs believed in the existence of one Great Deity, they belived that the All-Powerful Lord delegated His powers to some of His sacred personalities and objects – both animate and inanimate – who serve as the media through which the worshipper could come in contact with Him and thus earn His pleasure. It was under this belief that they worshipped the idols of saintly persons, heavenly bodies and stones which were sometimes regarded not as divinities, but as the incarnations of Divine Being.

What I have written about mathematics is not about Hindutva propaganda. Dota read before calling the truth Hndutva propaganda.

Well Dota now you can answer your own question

Xera

Xera

February 13, 2012 at 8:07 AM

Yes but those pre-islamic Arabs did not get their deities from the Hindus

Dota

Dota

February 13, 2012 at 8:35 AM

Manoj

You are the one that’s flogging a dead horse. The language and culture of the Aryans was radically different from those of the Harrapans. Cultures don’t take a 180 degree turn just like that. Even Christianity did not completely change the various European cultures. Their symbolism, art, poetry and music retained their pagan roots. Islam similarly incorporated many of the Pre-Islamic Arab values and customs. You expect any sane person to believe that a well planned urban, egalitarian and mercantile culture would suddenly transform into a caste-ridden rural society with a radically different language without any outside influence? Dream on Manoj bhai. The horse itself is not native to the subcontinent but was introduced to it from the central Asian steppes. Certain plants and vegetation mentioned in the Vedas are still found on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. A certain herbal drink mentioned in the Vedas is still served in chai ki dukans in Pakistan’s frontier province even today. Get your facts from sources other than Hindutva retards like Sudhir Birodhkar.

Jaipal

June 2, 2012 at 6:37 AM

@Dota,

like Sudhir Birodhkar. Jaipal June 2, 2012 at 6:37 AM @Dota, Maanoj is right, actually. Mathematicians

Maanoj is right, actually. Mathematicians like Abraham Seidenberg have done the research and pointed out that the mathematical formulas for altar constructions in the shape of Pyramids is mentioned and described in the work known as the Sulba Sutras.

and described in the work known as the Sulba Sutras. 2 7 o f P r

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How this Hindu mathematical knowledge could have reached the Middle-East upto Egypt, is likely due to the establishment of the Indic kingdoms like the Mittanni dynasty, which is known to have had trading connections with Egypt. There was also intermarriage among the royal families of Mittanni and the Pharoahs. All this is proven in inscriptions and documents from that era!

Xera

February 11, 2012 at 5:13 PM

documents from that era! Xera February 11, 2012 at 5:13 PM lol Accept the fact that

lol Accept the fact that your country and your backwards culture sucks ass and hasn’t made anything of noteworthy at this present time. Your country is worthless on a global scale and is shit, unless you guys admit all of the above, you guys will never become a modern society and get out of the medieval dark ages phase, which for all intents and purposes India is at the moment, admit that. Ancient Egypt, Greek, Romans & Persian stole everything from India? HA HA HA HA don’t make me laugh, is that what you guys lie to yourself to ignore all the potholes, scummy pathetic people and the stench of cow dung everyday?

Reply

Manoj Pashte

February 13, 2012 at 8:16 AM

everyday? Reply Manoj Pashte February 13, 2012 at 8:16 AM Xera I have already told you

Xera I have already told you that you talk besides the point. By the language being used by you it is best not to know your culture it must surely be worth not mentioning. Be that as it may we Indians are happy with our culture. I suppose you are not in touch with todays reality. So be it be happy for as the saying goes there is happinees in being ignorant.

Manoj Pashte

Manoj Pashte

February 13, 2012 at 8:18 AM

Xera you have a lot of reading to do so keep on reading

Manoj Pashte

Manoj Pashte

February 13, 2012 at 9:06 AM

dota you have yet to understand about the length and breath of the Vedic civilisation. In my earlier post I had stated that the Vedic civilisation was spread over thousands of miles. The geographical boundaries of today are of use in considering the extent of the Vedic civilisation. first of all get yourself acquainted with the length and breath of the Vedic Civilisation.

if you are bent upon not to eccept the facts stated you will always think that one is flogging a dead horse. I have also stated that the scrificial altars are found in the IVC those altars are built as per the guidelines given in the sulbha Sutras IVC is not just confined to only two towns ( Mohenjadaro and Harappa). Infact sites like Kalibangan, Lothal, Dholavira, Rakigarh, Surkotoda more or less share similar features to that of Mohenjadaro and Harappa. Any archeological material that is excavated and similar should be considered part of IVC.

is excavated and similar should be considered part of IVC. “Within the fortified citadel complex, the

“Within the fortified citadel complex, the southern half contained many (five or six) raised platforms of mud bricks, mutually separated by corridors. Stairs were attached to these platforms. Vandalism of these

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

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platforms by brick robbers makes it difficult to reconstruct the original shape of structures above them but unmistakable remnants of rectangular or oval kuṇḍas (Kundas) or fire-pits of burnt bricks for Vedi (altar)s have been found, with a yūpa or sacrificial post (cylindrical or with rectangular cross-section, sometimes bricks were laid upon each other to construct such a post) in the middle of each kuṇḍa and sacrificial terracotta cakes (piṇḍa) in all these fire-pits. Houses in the lower town also contain similar altars. Burnt charcoals have been found in these fire-pits. The structure of these fire-altars is reminiscent of (Vedic) fire-altars, but the analogy may be coincidental, and these altars are perhaps intended for some specific (perhaps religious) purpose by the community as a whole. In some fire-altars remnants of animals have been found, which suggest a possibility of animal-sacrifice. [19].

The official website of ASI reports : “Besides the above two principle [sic] parts of the metropolis there was

also a third one-a moderate structure situated upwards of

fire altars. This lonely structure may perhaps have been used for ritual purposes [20].” Thus, fire-altars have been found in three groups: public altars in the citadel, household altars in lower town, and public altars in a third separate group.”

lower town, and public altars in a third separate group.” m e. of the lower town

m e. of the lower town containing four to five

How are yougoin to explain the horses depicted in caves near Karikkiyur, about 40 km from Kothagiri in the Nilgiris. The rock paintings depict a battle scene with men aiming at each other with bows and arrows, men on horseback engaged in battle.

Dota please do not read only the EUROCENTRIC VIEW be open and understand that by rediculing you are not proving your point. For your information I have not read or received my facts from Sudhir Bhirodkar or from any hindutvavadi. I am stating some plain historical facts. If it cannot be denied then the people believing the theory are called Hindutvavadis. A good way to give a go by to the historical facts which cannot be denied.

Dota

February 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM

which cannot be denied. Dota February 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM And I never said that

And I never said that the Aryans ignored the Harrapans altogether. Some of the IVC was clearly incorporated into the VC. Archeological evidence and a lack of fossils has also proved that horses were not known to the IVC. Several geneticists, including the renowned Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza have stated over and over that upper caste Indians cluster fairly close to Europeans, Brahmins being the closest. It doesn’t mean that these people are white, no, but they are clearly Caucasoid whose origins lie outside the subcontinent. Are you Hindutvadis so insecure and fascist in nature, that you must compulsively indigenize a foreign people so as to maintain your shallow nationalistic hoax of India being the mother of all civilizations? Get over yourselves.

Xera

February 13, 2012 at 2:02 PM

Get over yourselves. Xera February 13, 2012 at 2:02 PM On an unrelated note, Dota are

On an unrelated note, Dota are the Bengali’s one of those Aryan descended races? I have seen them and they look completely different from other Indians

Dota

February 13, 2012 at 8:44 PM

Xera

from other Indians Dota February 13, 2012 at 8:44 PM Xera 2 9 o f P

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

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Yes they are. Bengali brahmins in particular look very Caucasoid.

Xera

February 13, 2012 at 8:56 PM

look very Caucasoid. Xera February 13, 2012 at 8:56 PM There are people saying that’s its

There are people saying that’s its only a few of them and the rest are Dravidians. Yet a sizable number of them look “different”, so I think there are some major strains.

Manoj Pashte

February 22, 2012 at 11:58 PM

major strains. Manoj Pashte February 22, 2012 at 11:58 PM Dota your replies are not in

Dota your replies are not in accordace with the historical, archeological, linguistic and scientific findings. You are so obsessed in supporting the Eurocentric viewabout the dating of the Rig Veda that you tend to ignore the evidences of the earlier date of the Rig Veda. I have already stated that I have given only the historical facts.

Your Statement:- ” Are you Hindutvadis so insecure and fascist in nature, that you must compulsively indigenize a foreign people so as to maintain your shallow nationalistic hoax of India being the mother of all civilizations? Get over yourselves.” is totally incorrect. The followers of sanatan dharma were, are and never will be insecure and fascist. A person just by writing the truth cannot be termed as insecure or fascist only because that person does not believe in what you believe. No foreign people are indianized compulsively, the genitic proofs are otherwise. The people of India are indeginous. We the people of India do want to have any opinion from others about our nationalism.

You are so bent upon to prove that the rig veda is dated not earlier than 1300 B.C. without any proofs historical or otherwise go to show that you do not care for the scientific evidence of any sort. Be that as it may the vedic civilisation is the oldest and there are are proofs scientific, archeological, and documentary which you are not able to contradict and hence you tend to hide behind the word hindutvavadi. Get yourself out of this inferiority complex and look at the proofs you may find your answer.

Reply

Praveen Sarma

February 23, 2012 at 12:45 AM

answer. Reply Praveen Sarma February 23, 2012 at 12:45 AM Good article. We had discussion about

Good article. We had discussion about vedas in blogs written in our regional language (telugu). When I said that vedas are just 3000 years old, Hindutva fanatics didn’t agree with me. They argued in the style of “rabbit with three legs” theory.

Reply

atheistseparatist

June 2, 2012 at 11:52 AM

theory. Reply atheistseparatist June 2, 2012 at 11:52 AM Talking to nuts like jaipal reminds of

Talking to nuts like jaipal reminds of a quote from house md :- ‘Rational arguments don’t usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people.’

Reply

Otherwise there would be no religious people.’ Reply 3 0 o f P r i n

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Madhusudan

March 17, 2012 at 2:14 AM

hindutva - crazies Madhusudan March 17, 2012 at 2:14 AM Looking @ the responses form Robert

Looking @ the responses form Robert (some of his response “Bla bla bla bla Sarasvati Bla bla bla Vedas Bla bla bla

I belive that he is immature and the article in

this blog is just heard cock and bull story. Robert I would like you to disprove Manoj Scientifically with facts

like you to do more research from non-hindutva side and come up with explanations to Manoj’s argument. Looking

forward to your next article on this.

1900 BC Bla bla bla river dried up Bla bla bla”. , “Yada yada Yada” etc)

I would

Reply

Robert Lindsay

March 17, 2012 at 2:20 AM

etc) I would Reply Robert Lindsay March 17, 2012 at 2:20 AM Hi, no I am

Hi, no I am going to “scientifically” refute Hindutva pseudo-science. It’s already been very well done by others anyway.

Reply

R.B.Pandey

April 22, 2012 at 4:37 AM

by others anyway. Reply R.B.Pandey April 22, 2012 at 4:37 AM blog started as if it

blog started as if it was going to be mocking of hindus,aryans. vedas india ,and probably everything connected to this land or subcotinent by an anti hindu mentality ,but thanks to Sri Manoj Pashte who made the blog interesting and worthreading by giving realistic facts and arguiments to Mr.Lindsey though these are not supporting his objective.mr.

Reply

myworldmylifemylies

May 21, 2012 at 10:59 PM

Reply myworldmylifemylies May 21, 2012 at 10:59 PM iv noticed you are not ready to have

iv noticed you are not ready to have a reasonable discussion to the comments posted by Indians on this “article” you “intelligently” seemed to have written. there are always two sides of a story so why not listen and argue than jus replying “yada yada and all that.

Reply

Robert Lindsay

May 21, 2012 at 11:03 PM

All right Hindu, you’re banned.

Reply

21, 2012 at 11:03 PM All right Hindu, you’re banned. Reply 3 1 Arun May 30,

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Robert, if there ever was an example of a racist twit, its you. The terms you use for indians – “elephant jockey” etc are pretty reflective of what you are. I mean, i work with Americans everyday, but the amount of insular bigotry in you and your bum chums on this blog pretty much makes me understand why my american friends are so contemptuous of what they refer to as trailer trash. Keep talking of aryans etc – point is you will never even know what the term means and nor will you ever be able to afford the kind of knowledge afforded by proper education and travel. Stay within the confines of the ‘net, populated by inbred retards like you, and rejoice.

Reply

Arun

May 30, 2012 at 7:46 AM

Delusional cr@p right here:

Arun May 30, 2012 at 7:46 AM Delusional cr@p right here: “Personally, I have been described

“Personally, I have been described as “otherworldly,”, “beyond highbrow,” “one of those totally out to lunch genius types,” and “off in my own world.” I have a very high IQ, and I’m told that a lot of high-IQ folks are like this. There doesn’t seem to be much I can do about it, but it does cause me problems. Generally, topics are focused through a progressive yet heterodox lens. Discusses race a lot – if it bugs you, don’t read. I have been called a liberal race realist. Liberal race realism has been described as “a dash of race realism, positive white racial identity, the leftist view of American history, anti-racism, and a base of liberalism.”I see myself as a pan-humanist universalist and a White ethnocentric anti-racist race realist, who strongly dislikes the PC, Cultural Marxist, Identity Politics, Western New Left.”

Basically an undereducated loser, insecure about his racial identity and hence running around trying to find some romantic ideal to link his heritage to. Positive white racial identity who dislikes PC- LOL, talk about putting lipstick on a pig, pretty much saying you are a white racist who wants to prove himself superior to others. Go to stormfront, they have no shortage of crazies like you.

And self id’ing yourself as a genius, another mega LOL. Do you even realize how stupid and pretentious you sound? You have a pathetic educational background with no technology or business skills, but a lowbrow skillset pretty much acquired by losers who take part time college. Nobody worth anything would touch you with a forklift…

No wonder the internet is all you have surrounded by other white whackjobs to egg you on.

Reply

Pepperoncini

May 30, 2012 at 2:15 PM

Standard Hindutvavadi response:

1) Itz a British Conspiracy

Standard Hindutvavadi response: 1) Itz a British Conspiracy 2) Whine about Eurocentricism when non Indian academics

2) Whine about Eurocentricism when non Indian academics refuse to accept Hindutva lies.When Indian academics don’t agree with the Hindutva line, whine that they are Marxists.

3) Regurgitate the distortions and lies peddled by Hindutvavadis like: Rajaram,Elst,Frawley,Kaznas, Kalyanayram, BB Lal etc… None of these hacks have published their OIT spiel in peer reviewed Indology journals (following a peer review process) .

Indology journals (following a peer review process) . Rig Veda describes a semi nomadic pastoral society

Rig Veda describes a semi nomadic pastoral society of warlike tribes. Urban life / cities, mercantilism, sea faring, intensive year round agriculture, hydraulic engineerin, major public works, a script, large scale manufacturing … are

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

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all alien to the Rig Veda. So the chronicles of the Aryans themselves disprove the lies peddled by Hindutvavadis.

Hindutva agenda is to rip off the IVC and much of the Sub Con culture and claim it as Aryan. No different to Nazis who saw Aryans everywhere, civilizing the world or White Supremacists who claim Ancient Egypt, Meso American Civ

and Sumer as White creations. Just pathetic attempt to steal another culture’s accomplishments and claim it as their

own.

Reply

RajToo

May 31, 2012 at 12:54 AM

claim it as their own. Reply RajToo May 31, 2012 at 12:54 AM Robert, why are

Robert, why are you so shit-scared of the truth about the antiquity of the Indic Civilization coming out? Why do you pee in you pants, when you read the mountain of evidence in its favor?

pants, when you read the mountain of evidence in its favor? Reply Robert Lindsay May 31,

Reply

Robert Lindsay

May 31, 2012 at 1:10 AM

in its favor? Reply Robert Lindsay May 31, 2012 at 1:10 AM I’m not scared of

I’m not scared of any of your lies, slumdog. Now hurry along. Don’t you have to go take a shit on a sidewalk somewhere?

Reply

Billa

May 31, 2012 at 2:37 AM

on a sidewalk somewhere? Reply Billa May 31, 2012 at 2:37 AM RajToo, reading all these

RajToo, reading all these “Aryan” posts here, this is exactly the shit you call blog is just the right place for “slumdogs” to come visit :)!

.

These little white Nazis are still trying to steal “Aryan” pride from us Indians. Well Robbie boy, you ain’t gonna get it! Capisch!

.

Robbie, you Nazi jerk, are you scared, we got you by your little smelly balls?

are you scared, we got you by your little smelly balls? Reply Robert Lindsay May 31,

Reply

Robert Lindsay

May 31, 2012 at 2:44 AM

Scared of you Indians and your failed society? Nah. Now fuck off back to Bharat my friend. And don’t you need to take a shit on your front porch right now? Nature is calling!

Reply

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

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To Robert, if we are a failed society, please know that india is 3rd in GDP with respect to PPP. Is it a failed state? The more you use coercive language, the more it makes you intolerant and illogical. I guess they didn’t teach this at school. But anyway, you see there is a famous adage, and it reads like this: Truth will triumph. You and I may not be there. It may take another 1000 years. But, the truth will be out some day.

It takes brains and a lot of cultural baggage to create and sustain a religion. India has given great thinkers like Sankara, Buddha and many more and home to many more religions. You guys have one religion and that too is

extinct. Your God who civilized you guys is Asian, ok West Asian. Now tell me, how many religions came out of Europe? Your Plato, Aristotle are puerile in their arguments when compared to Nagarjuna, Dharmakirti and Dignaga. Now, i don’t say that I’m superior to you. That is childishness. I say that there has been a continuum of ideas and that there is no point talking about India giving or getting. It has always been both ways. We have the MATURITY to accept this. Since, the west has not seen much spiritualism, such barbaric arrogance is expected. Grow up guys.

Cheers.

.

Reply

Robert Lindsay

Robert Lindsay

June 1, 2012 at 1:16 PM

Yes, India is a failed state.

Reply

Seriously?

Seriously?

June 1, 2012 at 1:21 PM

Wonderful. Then I guess there’s no point in you bashing it.

Reply

Robert Lindsay

Robert Lindsay

June 1, 2012 at 1:37 PM

Well, there is hope even for failed states. They can always turn it around. But I don’t think India can. The problem with India is its people and its culture. They want to live in a failed state. They want to live in a shithole. They like it that way. Anyway, they created the shithole failed state all by themselves. The shithole failed nature of the society reflects upon the people who created it. In a way, I don’t care so much, except that they are people, and I wish the best for all people.

But I am starting to think these Indians are most of the backwards, fucked up, regressive, barbaric and uncivilized people around. I am really worried about bringing more of these reactionaries (and that is what they are) into my country. I don’t think they belong here unless, like the Indian commenters on this site, they are willing to assimilate to the West.

We already have way too many reactionaries in this country. They are called Republicans. But even Republicans haven’t created as failed a shithole as India, though that’s obviously their dream. I don’t want them in my country, I think they are some of the worst immigrants to come to my country period, and I am really afraid of the effect they are going to have here.

am really afraid of the effect they are going to have here. And I do think

And I do think they are hopeless. If people want to change, they can change, but these people are so sick

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

that they really don’t want to change. It’s infuriating, but what can you do?

I can live with Muslims way better than I can live with these backwards subcontinentals. We have a lot of Indians around me and they are way cooler than the Indians around me. In fact, the coolest subcontinentals of all around here are the MUSLIMS. Now what kind of sense does that make? You know your society sucks balls in Hell when your MUSLIMS are the most civilized and decent among you. Good God.

Seriously?

June 1, 2012 at 1:50 PM

among you. Good God. Seriously? June 1, 2012 at 1:50 PM Look, there’s no need to

Look, there’s no need to use words like “shit” or “shithole” to characterize 1.2 billion people. Whatever your aim is, nothing will be accomplished by doing so. If it’s a terrible place and Indians are terrible people as you say, provide the evidence and let it speak for itself. Unfortunately, evidence is the one thing I don’t see here–and that goes for both sides.

But It is funny that you simultaneously bash Indians and Republicans, yet Indians are essentially liberal across the board. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_American I’m calling you out on it: There is literally no measure you can think of that would justify calling Indian Americans bad immigrants. So far, it only indicates that you don’t actually know any and have instead decided to rely on preconceptions. For all this talk about Indians being bad people and bad immigrants, I haven’t seen you give one legitimate reason in either blog post I’ve read of yours, or the countless comments you’ve made. You seem to just be repeating that India is bad over and over again.

Robert Lindsay

June 1, 2012 at 2:00 PM

over and over again. Robert Lindsay June 1, 2012 at 2:00 PM We have gone over

We have gone over endlessly why Indians suck on this blog. They don’t care one bit about their fellow man, they are callous, cruel and insensitive, and they are among the greediest and coldest people I have ever met. They put the stereotypical Jew to shame. It’s everything for me and mine and fuck everyone else, and I do mean fuck everyone else.

Indians have no empathy for their fellow man and no sense of the common good. That’s utterly absent from this culture. That’s as backwards regressive as any society on Earth. as a progressive person, 1.2 million people who don’t give a flying fuck about their fellow man and have no sense of the common good is a disaster. And I am really worried about bringing people with this mindset into my country.

I am going to do a post soon on why Indian immigrants suck. I am even starting to think that subcon Christians and Sikhs suck. I have met enough of them to know.

Robert Lindsay

June 1, 2012 at 2:06 PM

of them to know. Robert Lindsay June 1, 2012 at 2:06 PM Well, I am glad

Well, I am glad that they are voting Democrat. You’d never know it from talking to them. I still say I don’t like them, and I have to deal with them all the time around here. Hell, the Mexicans are cooler than the Indians around here. Anytime the Mexicans are better than you are, you’re in sorry shape.

Mexicans are better than you are, you’re in sorry shape. 3 5 o f P r

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

Seriously?

June 1, 2012 at 2:09 PM

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

. wordpress . com /2011/03/15/ hindutva - crazies Gee, you hate the two most statistically liberal

Gee, you hate the two most statistically liberal groups of people in America –Jews and Indians–for not being progressive enough and not caring about their fellow man. Apparently the only crime they’ve committed is also being the two wealthiest groups in America. Sounds pretty irrational so far.

Seriously?

June 1, 2012 at 2:14 PM

pretty irrational so far. Seriously? June 1, 2012 at 2:14 PM Damn, is there any non-white

Damn, is there any non-white group you don’t hate? However, it seems you hate the majority of whites as well. So much for caring about your fellow man.

Robert Lindsay

June 1, 2012 at 2:15 PM

your fellow man. Robert Lindsay June 1, 2012 at 2:15 PM Jews are good and liberal

Jews are good and liberal but on a personal level that can be greedy and callous as fuck all.

Indians come from a shit culture where no one cares about their fellow man. They dropped all of that when they came here? Forget it.

The Indians around here, when it comes down to it, are just rude and unfriendly. They’re the rudest and unfriendliest group around these parts. Like the stereotype of the pushy, rude, asshole Jew.

I don’t hate Jews either.

I really don’t want to carry on this debate with you. It’s not going anywhere.

Robert Lindsay

June 1, 2012 at 2:18 PM

BTW, you’re violating the comments rules.

#1 violation is hostile tone. I ban on that.

comments rules. #1 violation is hostile tone. I ban on that. #2 violation is calling me

#2 violation is calling me racist. You’re accusing me of hating all sorts of folks that I don’t hate at all. You can’t do that on here. I ban on that.

Seriously?

June 1, 2012 at 2:32 PM

Sorry, I agree, that was a leap on my part.

Dota

June 1, 2012 at 2:39 PM

that was a leap on my part. Dota June 1, 2012 at 2:39 PM 3 6

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

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Too be perfectly fair Robert, I don’t hold a very high view of Indian Muslims either. Same worldview, same morals, same culture, same practices. I’m glad you’ve met a handful of cool ones in your area, but having grown up around them I can confidently say that they are just as tribal as their Hindu neighbors. This is why I ultimately think that Khalistan will fail just as Pakistan did. The only reason Hinduized Bangladesh is doing much better is because it is an ethnically homogenous state.

Bay Area Guy

June 1, 2012 at 2:20 PM

homogenous state. Bay Area Guy June 1, 2012 at 2:20 PM As minorities in Western countries,

As minorities in Western countries, both Jews and Indians have to put on a facade of being liberal and tolerant, for important strategic purposes.

However, observe the way they behave when they’re the majority (whether it’s Jews in Israel or desis in India), and their true nature is revealed.

Reply

Seriously?

June 1, 2012 at 2:38 PM

nature is revealed. Reply Seriously? June 1, 2012 at 2:38 PM So you’re saying we’re genetically

So you’re saying we’re genetically evil? lol My mother has voted for Congress (the center-left party in India) her entire life despite coming from a powerful Brahman family; all of her family members did/do, even though doing so has meant losing all their power. Both of us are very liberal, and I’ve been a socialist since High School. People can both want education for themselves and care about other people. Trust me, it’s not a facade.

Reply

Robert Lindsay

June 1, 2012 at 2:56 PM

not a facade. Reply Robert Lindsay June 1, 2012 at 2:56 PM Congress hasn’t done crap

Congress hasn’t done crap for India. I’ve known some Indians in India. They all voted for Congress and were more or less Hindutvas in the way that they talked and viewed the world. The Hindutva Indian nationalist view is basically the default view for all Indian Hindus. Congress has been in power forever, and India is just as fucked as it’s ever been.

I’ve had it with India. I’m with the Maoists.

I see you’re family is Brahmin. I thought so. You all talk the same. Shining India LOL.

Reply

Seriously?

June 1, 2012 at 3:03 PM

Shining India LOL. Reply Seriously? June 1, 2012 at 3:03 PM Congress, both in terms of

Congress, both in terms of the progress they can achieve/have achieved and their views, is basically the same as the Democratic party.

their views, is basically the same as the Democratic party. And not entirely, no. My father

And not entirely, no. My father was not a Brahman; he was Vaishya.

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

Pepperoncini

June 1, 2012 at 3:15 PM

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

. wordpress . com /2011/03/15/ hindutva - crazies This is the same party that enables a

This is the same party that enables a family dictatorship; Nehru –> Indira Ghandi–> Rajiv—>Sonia. In any Western democrasy this would be called nepotism. Indira Ghandi also institued a Eugenics program that forcibly sterilised 7 million Indians, virtually all lower caste poor people and tribals. Congress gives a facade of tolerance and inclusion, but it is all fake. Congress – BJP relationship is a bit like the good cop – bad cop routine.

Bay Area Guy

June 1, 2012 at 3:04 PM

So you’re saying we’re genetically evil?

2012 at 3:04 PM So you’re saying we’re genetically evil? LOL yourself. I never said that.

LOL yourself. I never said that. That’s a strawman argument if there ever was one.

I’m sure your family is absolutely wonderful, but my point remains. Compare the way Hindutvas act in India, where they’re the majority (where they use the language of Hindu dominance/supremacy), compared to how they act in the U.S, where they’re the minority (where they use the language of pluralism, multiculturalism, anti-colonialism, etc).

Dota once provided a link to an article about the whole Hindutva textbook controversy in California.

Western Jews are very much the same. They talk a big game about tolerance, diversity, and multiculturalism in Western countries, but unapologetically support Israel’s Jewish ethnocracy (even though they occasionally give lip service to the idea that certain forms of anti-Jewish discrimination are wrong), and Israeli Jews, who are the majority in their society, are unapologetic Jewish supremacists.

Is it because they’re genetically predisposed to be evil? Of course not. It’s a matter of strategy and self-interest. When you’re the minority in liberal Western countries, it pays to play the equality, multiculturalism, tolerance, and pluralism card. You’re not powerful enough to fight toe to toe with the white majority, so you try to disarm them with pluralistic liberal rhetoric.

However, when you’re the majority, you tend to have no problem with unapologetically asserting your dominance, as Jews in Israel and Hindu desis in India do, with white Western countries being the exception to this rule in many ways.

Reply

Pepperoncini

June 1, 2012 at 3:17 PM

@ Bay Area Guy Thumbs Up

Seriously?

June 1, 2012 at 3:24 PM

@ Bay Area Guy Thumbs Up Seriously? June 1, 2012 at 3:24 PM 3 8 o

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

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Not that it would help my point all (it’s probably going to hurt it), but twice-born castes are definitely a minority in India unlike Jews in Israel.

Anyways, though, it seems to me almost a contradiction to presuppose that certain people are self-interested, even when they’re ostensibly going against their own interests, and also suggesting that they shouldn’t be. You’re separating yourself from those groups for whatever reason, forgetting them conscious beings, and making pretty blanket statements without clear evidence in support of those statements.

Per Wikipedia:

“Helmreich describes Jews as “a uniquely swayable bloc” as a result of Republican stances on Israel. [24][99][102] A paper by Dr. Eric Uslaner of the University of Maryland disagrees, at least with regard to the 2004 election: “Only 15% of Jews said that Israel was a key voting issue. Among those voters, 55% voted for Kerry (compared to 83% of Jewish voters not concerned with Israel).” The paper goes on point out that negative views of Evangelical Christians had a distinctly negative impact for Republicans among Jewish voters, while Orthodox Jews, traditionally more conservative in outlook as to social issues, favored the Republican Party.[103] A New York Times article suggests that the Jewish movement to the Republican party is focused heavily on faith-based issues, similar to the Catholic vote, which is credited for helping President Bush taking Florida in 2004.[104] However, Natan Guttman, The Forward’s Washington bureau chief, dismisses this notion, writing in Moment that while “[i]t is true that Republicans are making small and steady strides into the Jewish community…a look at the past three decades of exit polls, which are more reliable than pre-election polls, and the numbers are clear: Jews vote overwhelmingly Democratic,”[105] an assertion confirmed by the most recent presidential election results.”

I think it’s better to just understand that each group of people can be separated into those who are always

self-interested and those who are trying to look out for other people. I’m assuming you’d classify yourself as the latter, even though many people have negative opinions of whites as well. It almost seems as if liberal Jews and upper-caste Indians can’t do anything to sway certain opinions about them, even though the comprise the majority of their respective groups.

Bay Area Guy

June 1, 2012 at 3:35 PM

@ Seriously

groups. Bay Area Guy June 1, 2012 at 3:35 PM @ Seriously Perhaps I took too

Perhaps I took too much of Machiavelli’s “The Prince” or Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals” to heart when

I them, but I happen to have a very negative view of human nature.

Unless you’re good friends with someone, or are their own flesh and blood, you’re very rarely going to go out of your way to help someone purely out of altruism.

People, especially those in politics, act out of self-interest, and anyone who denies it is a damn fool.

I would advise reading the autobiography of Malcolm X, go near the end of the book, and read what he has to say about the reasons why the Jewish leadership supported the black civil rights movement. They certainly didn’t do it out of love for black people.

They certainly didn’t do it out of love for black people. And no, I don’t pretend

And no, I don’t pretend to be one of those white liberals who feigns empathy for the black and Hispanic masses.

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

I am very much a self-interested person. I’m at least honest about that. I wish others would display similar honesty.

Dota

June 1, 2012 at 6:05 PM

BAG

display similar honesty. Dota June 1, 2012 at 6:05 PM BAG “Perhaps I took too much

“Perhaps I took too much of Machiavelli’s “The Prince” or Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals” to heart when I them, but I happen to have a very negative view of human nature. ”

Then perhaps you need to take Shakespeare to heart too:

What a piece of work is a man, How noble in Reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, In action how like an Angel! in apprehension how like a god, the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals.

Dota

June 1, 2012 at 8:33 PM

BAGs post sums it up nicely.

Dota June 1, 2012 at 8:33 PM BAGs post sums it up nicely. Seriously? You have

Seriously? You have made some pretty self serving and dishonest claims yourself. You know as well as i do that the President’s position in India means nothing. The President is just a figurehead. The real power lies with the prime minister, and we’ve yet to see dalits or Muslims/Christians make it there.

Bay Area Guy

Bay Area Guy

June 1, 2012 at 9:12 PM

@ Dota

Well said. That makes Seriously’s lame arguments even worse.

Seriously?

Seriously?

June 1, 2012 at 10:05 PM

lol “lame arguments” I don’t know what to say. This could have taken about 30 seconds to look up on Google: It’s true that in practice the Prime Minister does display more power, but the de jure power rests with the President, who appoints the Prime Minister. Whether or not a dalit is selected is completely up to the President. So yes, a dalit was elected to the highest office the populace could elect him to.

Pepperoncini

June 1, 2012 at 2:41 PM

could elect him to. Pepperoncini June 1, 2012 at 2:41 PM 4 0 o f P

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

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Thats a good point. I’d say it is the same for Muslims and East Asians. In the US, they have to act nice outwardly, because American culture does not like open blatant bigotry. Usually these non Euro minorities are passive aggresive and practice what I call ‘smart or sly racism’ .

Reply

Pepperoncini

Pepperoncini

June 1, 2012 at 2:42 PM

Above post was in response to Bay Area Guy’s post

Reply

Seriously?

Seriously?

June 1, 2012 at 2:44 PM

Or you’re just projecting preconceived notions onto them. That’s a pretty huge logical leap to make.

Reply

Pepperoncini

Pepperoncini

June 1, 2012 at 3:23 PM

It’s called observation. Not true for all as people are still individuals to a degree but the cultural groups they belong to will tend to exhibit certain sympathies and biases.

Bay Area Guy

June 1, 2012 at 3:27 PM

sympathies and biases. Bay Area Guy June 1, 2012 at 3:27 PM On another note, this

On another note, this is also why I, as a white person, am very wary of any non-white minority group in Western countries that plays the equality and tolerance card. It’s because I know damn well that if they were to become the majority and wield the power, they would unapologetically favor themselves, and to hell with “equality.”

But as long as they can continue to dupe white liberal useful idiots, they’ll continue to do it.

Reply

Pepperoncini

June 1, 2012 at 9:58 PM

to do it. Reply Pepperoncini June 1, 2012 at 9:58 PM @Dota, quoting Bay “Dota once

@Dota, quoting Bay “Dota once provided a link to an article about the whole Hindutva textbook controversy in California.”

Could you provide the link again please. I am somewhat familiar with the subject, having read the comments by Western Indologists who battled the Hindutvadis. As far as I know, the general gist of the textbook controversy revolves around Indian Americans and their White fellow travellers like Frawley whitewashing the horrors of caste, downplaying the Aryan-Dravidian issue, downplaying

of caste, downplaying the Aryan-Dravidian issue, downplaying 4 1 o f P r i n t

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

the fact that IVC was not Aryan .

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Dota

June 1, 2012 at 10:40 PM

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

. wordpress . com /2011/03/15/ hindutva - crazies

The one positive thing I’ll gladly admit about India is that it does have a relatively free media that represents a diverse range of views. Interestingly enough, this is also true for Pakistan despite the authoritarianism.

Reply

Pepperoncini

June 1, 2012 at 11:39 PM

Reply Pepperoncini June 1, 2012 at 11:39 PM Thanks I am currently googling the subject and

Thanks I am currently googling the subject and ran across the below website which I only link to as it appears academically oriented. It is an electronic journal, and has an article on the Cali Textbook Controversy. It has some choice quotes where the writer does not shy away from blunty stating the obvious. Too often Western academics take a passive and polite attitude towards Hindutva revisionist attempts, instead of calling a duck a duck.

Partial quote from the 11th paragraph “Combined, these changes equate the history of ancient India with the history of Hinduism, and reduce a diverse set of religious practices and beliefs to those associated with the patriarchal, Brahmanical perspective while marginalizing the vital contributions of religious minorities, women, Adivasis (tribals) and Dalits to Indian history. ”

Last pararaphg mentions the ‘history’ peddled by Hindu Educational Foundation, one of the chief reviosionist American Hindu orgs involved in the textbook case.

“This site also brags that ancient India has the distinction of being the only destination in the world for UFOs, while the Aryans made it to the moon. Scientificminded readers can be assured that “

Reply

Jaipal

June 2, 2012 at 7:07 AM

Dota said: Manoj

“ Reply Jaipal June 2, 2012 at 7:07 AM Dota said: Manoj “You are the one

“You are the one that’s flogging a dead horse. The language and culture of the Aryans was radically different from those of the Harrapans. Cultures don’t take a 180 degree turn just like that. Even Christianity did not completely change the various European cultures. Their symbolism, art, poetry and music retained their pagan roots. Islam similarly incorporated many of the Pre-Islamic Arab values and customs. You expect any sane person to believe that a well planned urban, egalitarian and mercantile culture would suddenly transform into a caste-ridden rural society with a radically different language without any outside influence? Dream on Manoj bhai. The horse itself is not native to the subcontinent but was introduced to it from the central Asian steppes. Certain plants and vegetation mentioned

Asian steppes. Certain plants and vegetation mentioned 4 2 o f P r i n t

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

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in the Vedas are still found on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. A certain herbal drink mentioned in the Vedas is still served in chai ki dukans in Pakistan’s frontier province even today. Get your facts from sources other than Hindutva retards like Sudhir Birodhkar.” (Quote)

@Dota,

Your entire argument is easily refutable. The language of the Harappans is not known for sure because their script has never been satisfactorily deciphered, so the actual linguistic identity is not known! So, you cannot say with certainty that Harappans were non-IE speakers. Therefore, your claim is just an assumption without any proof! Since the Harappan civilization is a NORTHERN civilization just as the Vedic Civilization was, there is nothing incompatible with the possibility that Harappans may have a connection with Vedic Culture!

As far as the culture of the Indo-Aryans goes, the Rig-Veda is actually the product of a King-Sage culture, namely Rishi-Raja culture!! The Rig-Veda was composed by an Indian dynasty known as the Bharata Dynasty. You can consult Michael Witzel on this by the way. The Rig-Veda knows sea-faring and trading as well as agriculture because there are many descriptions of the ocean and prayers are made for a safe crossing of the ocean for trading purposes as well as prayers for rain!! so, you are wrong about Rig-Veda being composed by a nomadic people!!

As for the horse, this argument is somewhat flawed. While the horse may not be native to the subcontinent, it doesn’t undermine the possibility that horses could be imported by the ruling Indian clans at the time without the necessity of introducing a whole new people. Absence of physical evidence of horse remains does not mean necessarily evidence of absence of the horse. It could be that the horse remains weren’t preserved and didn’t survive in the archeological record!

Reply

benne

July 15, 2012 at 1:37 AM

You say at the beginning of your rant:

“Generally, the Rig Vedas are said to begin around 3900 YBP.

the Rig Vedas are said to begin around 3900 YBP. Then you say: “As Hindu culture

Then you say:

“As Hindu culture is ahistoric in terms of dates and events, no one knows when these events took place.”

Only one statement can be correct.

Not sure why you are so keen to take on “Hindutva crazies” – you could ignore them, but you seem concerned enough about what Hindutva crazies say to actually write a rant about their beliefs.

Actually some of the things that “hindutva crazies” say might possibly be true and that is getting a whole lot of “scholarly” knickers in a right royal twist. That would, in my view, be a good reason for you to have your rant.

LOL

Reply

Robert Lindsay

reason for you to have your rant. LOL Reply Robert Lindsay 4 3 o f P
reason for you to have your rant. LOL Reply Robert Lindsay 4 3 o f P

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

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July 15, 2012 at 8:41 AM

July 15, 2012 at 8:41 AM

Nothing controversial that those Hindu dogs say is correct. Nothing, nothing, nothing.

And you are banned.

Reply

AIT-Nazis got no history!

AIT-Nazis got no history!

July 19, 2012 at 8:52 AM

So does that mean that all that what AIT-Nazis like Witzel and you say is correct? Gimme a break!

You Nazis have a serious problem of identity and history!

He-He!

Reply

Robert Lindsay

Robert Lindsay

July 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM

Ok slumdog, you’re banned. Amazing, in India, even the vast majority of the intellectuals are retarded!

Yes, Witzel and I are correct. And you retarded Hindu dogs are all wrong.

Reply

Xera

Xera

February 5, 2013 at 10:16 AM

Robert, I’ve always wanted to ask you this but do you think in your honest opinion that Euro’s and Caucasians in general are the “best looking and most aesthetic” human race compared to others?

Reply

Robert Lindsay

February 5, 2013 at 11:11 AM

to others? Reply Robert Lindsay February 5, 2013 at 11:11 AM I really do not want

I really do not want to get into that line of thinking. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I can’t stand the whole line of thinking that any race is better looking than any other race. Human races have clearly been selecting for beauty for a long time now. Although I must admit that it is very hard for me to find Aborigines beautiful!

proto87

July 19, 2012 at 10:22 AM

find Aborigines beautiful! proto87 July 19, 2012 at 10:22 AM Unfortunately, the vocal minority is taken

Unfortunately, the vocal minority is taken to be the voice of the hindu community. There is a vocal minority of hindutva crazies (I won’t call them hindus) who believe in indigenous origin of vedic language and give hoary dates to these. In the fantasy world of hindutva’s theories, it doesn’t matter if they date rigveda to 5000bc/10,000bc or even

matter if they date rigveda to 5000bc/10,000bc or even 4 4 o f P r i

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

80,000bc.

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

I’ve never heard Hindu priests or anyone with a good knowledge of vedic language and material culture give such hoary dates.

So, none of the statements of “hindutva crazies” can be taken to be those of hindu community as such.

Reply

Robert Lindsay

Robert Lindsay

July 19, 2012 at 10:42 AM

Thank you. It is nice to know that there are some sane and intelligent Hindus out there.

Reply

Bay Area Guy

Bay Area Guy

July 19, 2012 at 10:57 AM

Damn Robert, how many Hindutva slumdogs have you banned?

Damn Robert, how many Hindutva slumdogs have you banned?

Reply

Robert Lindsay

Robert Lindsay

July 19, 2012 at 11:03 AM

Wow, it never stops does it LOL?

Bay Area Guy

Bay Area Guy

July 19, 2012 at 11:36 AM

LOL, I mean, I imagine it has to be a lot, considering you started writing about India over two years ago.

Robert Lindsay

Robert Lindsay

July 19, 2012 at 12:03 PM

LOL BAG, by the time I am done, I will have banned half of India.

Jai Hind motherfuckers!

Yasdnil Is-A Tnuc

Yasdnil Is-A Tnuc

July 19, 2012 at 10:45 AM

Oh boy! Yet another moonbat shit-crazy numbnut who has no clue about India or Sanskrit but has opinions. As science and genetics catch up , the world arounf AIT-Nazis keep getting smaller and smaller.

the world arounf AIT-Nazis keep getting smaller and smaller. Maybe you should find out why Jesus

Maybe you should find out why Jesus is blonde-haired-blue-eyed and not the typical middle eastern looks for someone from Palestine. Start there boy , after sifting through the paidos in the church.

Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas | Beyond Hig

India and Sanskrit is a little too much for your thick skull.

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Robert Lindsay

July 19, 2012 at 11:02 AM

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/hindutva-crazies

. wordpress . com /2011/03/15/ hindutva - crazies Another Hindu dog banned. Pitiful. What kind of

Another Hindu dog banned. Pitiful. What kind of a nation produces such a garbage crop of retarded intellectuals anyway?

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Krishna

August 23, 2012 at 10:17 AM

anyway? Reply Krishna August 23, 2012 at 10:17 AM The very reason for educated hindus proving

The very reason for educated hindus proving the aryan invasion theory wrong is to reinstate the truth about indian history distorted by european invaders trying to have spiritual supremacy over indians. This is what europeans did within europe as well outside. whenever they attacked any country. Be it the history our science, british rulers on india have distorted everything very systematically so that could continue to rule spiritually enslaved try

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Truth

Truth

September 9, 2012 at 4:41 AM

WHere does this Uneducated Bigotic Idiotic Moronic White Trash Nazi like Robert Lindsey Exist

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Truth

Truth

September 9, 2012 at 4:43 AM

This White Trash will not only be reported bit taken to task with Authorities for such Idiotic Uneducated Racist Comments and so will this Site

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Robert Lindsay

Robert Lindsay

September 9, 2012 at 5:15 AM