Cab 2005 May

file:///C|/Documents%20and%20Settings/JPERRY/My%20Documents/AdvisoryBoard/boardmeeting052105.
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ADVISORY BOARD
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6 DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION AND
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NATURAL RESOURCES
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9 INTERNATIONAL MOTORS SPORTS
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HALL OF FAME AND MUSEUM
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May 21, 2005 - 9:00 a.m.
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0002
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APPEARANCES
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3 ADVISORY BOARD MEMBERS IN ATTENDANCE:
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Mr. Bill Hatley
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Mr. Ross M. Self
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Dr. Gaines Smith
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Dr. Wayne May
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Mr. Louis Coles
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Mr. Barnett Lawley, Commissioner
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Dr. Warren Strickland
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Mr. W. Grant Lynch
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Mr. James W. Porter, II
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Mr. Johnny M. Johnson
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Mr. George Harbin
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file:///C|/Documents%20and%20Settings/JPERRY/My%20Documents/AdvisoryBoard/boardmeeting052105.txt (1 of 87)10/14/2005 9:06:30 AM
file:///C|/Documents%20and%20Settings/JPERRY/My%20Documents/AdvisoryBoard/boardmeeting052105.txt
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0003
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INDEX
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3 CALL TO ORDER............... 4
4 INVOCATION.................. 4
5 INTRODUCTION OF
6 BOARD MEMBERS............. 4
7 APPROVAL OF MINUTES OF
8 LAST MEETINGS............. 6
9 PUBLIC HEARING.............. 7
10 DCNR DEPARTMENTAL REPORTS.. 96
11 DISTRICT REPORTS.......... 122
12 NEW BUSINESS.............. 152
13 SELECTION OF DATE
14 AND LOCATION............ 154
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0004
1 May 21, 2005
9:00 a.m.
2
3
CALL TO ORDER
4
5
MR. COLES: I'd like to call the
6 meeting of the May 21st meeting of the
7 Conservation Advisory Board. And no. I am
8 not Dan Moultrie. Mr. Moultrie has a family
9 conflict today and will not be present with
10 us. And at this time, I'd like to call on
11 Mr. Johnny Johnson to give us our invocation.
12
13
INVOCATION
14
15 (Whereupon, the invocation was given by Mr.
16 Johnny Johnson.)
17
18
INTRODUCTION OF BOARD MEMBERS
19
20
MR. COLES: We'll now have the
21 introduction of the Board members by
22 Commissioner Lawley.
23
MR. LAWLEY: Thank you, sir. First
0005
1 of all, I want to thank Grant Lynch and the
2 Talladega Superspeedway for hosting this
3 meeting. It's a beautiful facility and if
4 you have time after the meeting to ride
5 around and look at this whole racetrack, it's
6 phenomenal. It's such an asset to this area
7 and where I live, also. It's very important
8 to us.
9
I'd like to introduce the Board members
10 in attendance. Bill Hatley, Ross Self, Dr.
11 Gaines Smith, Dr. Wayne May, Louis Coles,
12 Grant Lynch, Jim Porter, Johnny Johnson and
13 George Harbin.
14
We also have a new member today that is
15 taking a turn for Mr. Bud Willis who served
16 this advisory board very well in the State of
17 Alabama and did a good job. His term was up.
18 Dr. Warren Strickland was appointed by the
19 Governor and this is his meeting.
20
Dr. Strickland is a lifelong bow hunter.
21 He started bow hunting with his father when
22 he was twelve years old in Arkansas. You may
23 have seen him on TV. I have several times on
0006
1 Mossy Oak shows. His knowledge of hunting,
2 his knowledge of biology and habitats will be
3 a tremendous asset to this Board.
4
He's very active with the Boy Scouts.
5 He's an outdoor person and that's what we
6 really need as we all have our love in our
7 hearts for the outdoors.
8
He's a very successful cardiologist and
9 heart surgeon in Huntsville, Alabama.
10 Warren, we are happy to have you aboard.
11 Thank you.
12
13
APPROVAL OF MINUTES OF LAST MEETINGS
14
15
MR. COLES: Next item on the agenda
16 is the approval of the minutes of the last
17 meetings of February and March.
18
UNIDENTIFIED BOARD MEMBER: So
19 moved.
20
UNIDENTIFIED BOARD MEMBER:
21 Seconded.
22
MR. COLES: We have a motion to
23 second. All Board members in favor please
0007
1 signify by raising your right hand. Motion
2 carries.
3
MS. ROBIN: I'll have him to repeat
4 that.
5
6
PUBLIC HEARING
7
8
MR. COLES: The next item on the
9 agenda is the public hearing section of our
10 meeting. And before we get started, I'd like
11 to call your attention as you signed up to
12 speak on the sign-in sheet, down at the
13 bottom, there was a little disclaimer. It
14 says: I agree to provide only truthful and
15 factual information to the Board.
16
Felt like this was necessary. Sometimes,
17 we, as Board members, sit here and we have to
18 determine whether the information that's
19 given is factual or a fabrication or
20 exaggerated or what. And so we ask that you
21 abide by this.
22
Under the miscellaneous topic -- and,
23 please, bear with me as I try to pronounce
0008
1 these names. Mr. Kevin Archie from Kinslin,
2 Alabama. Is Mr. Archie here?
3
MR. JONES: (Inaudible.)
4
5 (Whereupon, the court reporter indicated that
6 the speaker could not be heard. Adjustments
7 to the microphone system were made.)
8
9
MR. JONES: Good morning,
10 Gentlemen. Thank y'all for allowing us to
11 speak today. I want to welcome the new
12 member Mr. Strickland. Thank you for
13 accepting the job where it's impossible to
14 make everybody happy.
15
Kevin Archie could not be here today. He
16 is the president of the Alabama Muzzleloader
17 Association. His two daughters are playing
18 their final t-ball game this morning. Asked
19 me to speak for him.
20
He basically just wanted me to tell y'all
21 thank y'all. They really appreciate the
22 opportunity y'all have done. Didn't have any
23 complaints about any of y'all or anything
0009
1 that y'all have done. May be the only group
2 today that you hear that from.
3
Their membership is expanding. Enjoyed
4 the days they had of hunting last year. The
5 only thing Kevin brought up to ask -- or told
6 me to ask y'all about was Youth Day this year
7 is on November 12th. And then the
8 muzzleloader season is coming in from the
9 14th to the 18th if I understand it correctly
10 which is a Monday through Friday before
11 regular gun season came in.
12
The reason for asking is if y'all would
13 consider either having a Youth Day on the
14 12th and the 13th for us who have two kids
15 like he does. We have to figure out which
16 one gets to shoot first. Or opening the
17 muzzleloading season possibly on the 13th
18 where the folks who do like to use the
19 muzzleloaders would have one week -- at least
20 one day on the weekend of season like
21 everybody else does. If you would consider
22 that then he would be appreciative of it.

23
Besides that, he wanted to reiterate
0010
1 thank you for what y'all have done and be
2 open-minded on expanding the different means
3 of access to people to have and enjoy the
4 woods.
5
If y'all have any questions, I probably
6 can't answer them but I can write them down
7 and provide his telephone number or go out
8 and call him and get an answer for you.
9
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Jones.
10 Next we'll hear from Amy Boyanton from
11 Huntsville.
12
MS. BOYANTON: (Inaudible.)
13
17
18
MS. BOYANTON: My name is Amy
19 Boyanton. I live in Huntsville, Alabama in
20 Madison County.
21
22 (Whereupon, Board members indicated that the
23 speak could not be heard. Adjustments were
0011
1 made to the microphone system.)
2
3
MS. BOYANTON: Like I said, my name
4 is Amy Boyanton. I live in Huntsville in
5 Madison County. By nature, I'm a
6 stay-at-home mom with two small children who
7 are two and five. But December the 19th,
8 2004, I became in the truest sense of the
9 word "hunting widow."
10
My husband Ben Boyanton was an attorney
11 in Huntsville. Very successful, full of
12 life, wonderful father, wonderful husband.
13
Was hunting in a tree stand on private
14 property in a tree stand that he had locked
15 off on while our oldest son watched. A tree
16 stand he had hunted in time after time with a
17 false sense of security because he had hunted

18 there over and over.
19
He made a very poor choice that day. He
20 had taught our oldest child the importance of
21 safety in hunting and wearing orange and
22 locking on. And if you ask my five-year-old
23 why his daddy died, he says: Daddy forgot to
0012
1 buckle. This is something that no family
2 should ever have to go through.
3
I know that it is required and it is a
4 choice people make on wildlife management
5 areas. And I'm here today to beg you and ask
6 you to make it a requirement for the whole
7 state private property or wildlife management
8 area.
9
My husband's life was very important to
10 me and to my family, our community, our
11 church, friends, people in the legal
12 community in Huntsville. It didn't matter if
13 his life was on public or private property.
14 It was important. It was special as is any
15 person's life to their family.
16
And I just ask you to consider changing
17 it and making it required. My husband was
18 the type personality, if it had been a
19 requirement on private property, he would
20 have loved to buckle it on and complain the
21 while time.
22
He would have badmouthed whoever made him
23 do it but he would have put it on and he
0013
1 would be home today with our now
2 three-year-old and six-year-old who
3 celebrated their first birthday without their
4 father.
5
And, you know, it's a really bad day.
6 It's been five months. It's been a very
7 short time but in some ways, it feels like
8 longer. But I am raising two sons on my home
9 with the help of my husband's best friends
10 who I had to call and had to go find him face
11 down dead in the woods where he had been
12 laying alone for hours.

13
But I am raising two hunters because my
14 husband had a passion for his family, his
15 dogs and for the outdoors. And so my
16 children will always be taught the importance
17 of safety regardless of where they are.
18 Regardless of the height or what kind of tree
19 stand they're in.
20
But I just would ask you to consider it
21 carefully for the lives of all hunters in the
22 state of Alabama no matter where they are.
23 Thank you.
0014
1
MR. COLES: Thank you. We would
2 like to extend our deepest sympathy for your
3 loss and appreciate you coming today.
4
Next is Jack Cropp of Pell City.
5
MR. CROPP: Mr. Cole, Members of
6 the Board, Mr. Lawley, Mr. Hughes, Members of
7 the Conservation Department, my name is Jack
8 Cropp and I'm from Pell City in St. Clair
9 County.
10
I think it's generally accepted now that
11 the changes implemented last year have been
12 an enhancement to the hunting experience in
13 Alabama. And I'm just disappointed that the
14 Board continues to approve foolish
15 restrictions.
16
I hate to see you all regulate a good
17 thing just to appease a few malcontents.
18
20 the speaker could not be heard.)
21
22
MR. CROPP: I'm concerned about the
23 restrictions in Barbour County -0015
1
MR. GOODWIN: Can you speak closer
2 to the mike?
3
MR. CROPP: They may roll them over
4 into the rest of the state. You know, deer
5 hunting in Alabama has evolved from bare
6 antler buck only to a hunting experience
7 that's championed by every state in the

8 nation.
9
And these back-up concepts have been
10 looked at and studied over the years and they
11 might biologically be a bad thing to do.
12
You know when you shoot a deer with three
13 points on one side -- young deer with three
14 points on one side and let spikes and four
15 pointers walk, you've probably killed the
16 deer with the best genes and let the inferior
17 buck walk to do the breeding.
18
You know there's not so much public land
19 in Barbour County with the exception of the
20 management areas. And right now, if the
21 majority of the people down there really want
22 restrictions, they can have them now just
23 like they want them.
0016
1
Now this focus in Alabama, we don't need
2 no more Government mandates. But putting
3 people into the permit system, I assume that
4 you mean to make it work. The fact that the
5 anti-dog hunters know that they have the
6 advantage for most conflicts. The only way
7 to make the permit system work is to ensure
8 that complaints against dogs and dog hunters
9 be substantiated with affidavits and police
10 reports and court orders to prove that
11 somebody's rights have really been violated.
12
Anti-dog hunters just ain't going to let
13 nothing work and it ought to be obvious that
14 it's not going to stop with deer dogs.
15
Some of the charges that have been
16 brought forth against the dog hunters in the
17 past have been absolutely ridiculous. And I
18 thought I had heard them all. And this year,
19 somebody comes forth and says that they're
20 killing his deer, running his deer on his
21 property. He called the game warden and the
22 game warden says, "No. I can't do nothing
23 because they said they was rabbit hunters."
0017
1
Now, Gentleman, that's an insult to Mr.
2 Alan and everybody in that department. If

3 any officers in the conservation department
4 suspicion that someone was illegally deer
5 hunting and they -- and they caught them at
6 it and asked them about it and they said:
7 Oh, no. We're not deer hunting. We're
8 rabbit hunting. There isn't an officer in
9 that department that would just throw their
10 hands up and say, oh, okay, and walk away.
11 They'd search them right there. And if they
12 had buckshot, slugs or a rifle with them,
13 they'd get a ticket for hunting deer
14 illegally.
15
Now Rick Yeager who happens to have -- he
16 claims to be a major player in the permit
17 system in southeast Alabama and he has a web
18 site called stalk and steal hunters USA. And
19 it's nothing less than a dog hunter hate
20 site. And I will challenge the so-called
21 (inaudible) group from Jefferson County to
22 show where they have ever attempted to reach
23 a compromise solution with some of these
0018
1 groups.
2
They come to these meetings looking for
3 somebody new to come in and kind of complain
4 and when they do, they jump on him like a
5 buzzard on a roadkill and influence them,
6 tell them how they can go about getting dog
7 hunting stopped in that area.
8
Hunting in Alabama or hunting in the
9 world is a worldwide tradition for both man
10 and beast. And the liberties that we have to
11 hunt in Alabama are not equal anywhere in the
12 North America and very few places in the
13 entire world.
14
And it's ironic that today, we've got
15 Alabamians in places like Iraq and
16 Afghanistan risking their lives to protect
17 our freedom so that some of those who chose
18 not to serve can deny them the privilege of
19 hunting on their own land in the
20 manner that they choose when and, indeed, if
21 they do come home.

22
To the best of my knowledge, Gentlemen,
23 there has never been any substantiated
0019
1 evidence submitted that would justify
2 stopping dog hunting anywhere in Alabama and
3 there ain't none on the table this year.
4
When y'all are making your final
5 decisions, I just hope that you use logical
6 common sense and fairness and don't place any
7 more restrictions on any kind of hunting, dog
8 or otherwise.
9
And I'd like to see you take those
10 foolish restrictions off cross bows and I'd
11 like to see those counties that have had
12 their hunting privileges denied unjustly in
13 the past, I'd like to see those counties have
14 those hunting privileges reinstated. Thank
15 you.
16
MR. LAWLEY: Thank you, Mr. Cropp.
17 Next we'll hear from Gary Kendrick.
18
MR. KENDRICK: Good morning,
19 Gentleman. I would like to express my
20 appreciation to these gentlemen for allowing
21 me to talk here (inaudible). I wanted to
22 speak to you just a moment this morning.
23
My name is Gary Kendrick and I'm from
0020
1 Pell City, Alabama. I'd like to speak to you
2 just a moment on the future of our crappie
3 fishing. What I'm going to say is not to pat
4 myself on the back. I just want to make a
5 point of it.
6
I currently belong to the American
7 Crappie Association which is a national
8 organization of crappie fishermen. I also
9 belong to the Alabama Crappie Association
10 which is a large club here in the state of
11 Alabama. I serve currently on the Angler
12 Advisory Board for the South USA,
13 Incorporated national tournament trail.
14
By doing so, I've had the opportunity to
15 travel many states in the southeast over the
16 last ten years. My wife and I fish national

17 tournaments, crappie tournaments when my
18 son's not able to fish with me.
19
Throughout these tours we've discovered
20 that the state of Alabama has the best
21 crappie fishing overall throughout the state
22 and any of our states surrounding y'all. We
23 currently can catch quality fish here and
0021
1 quantity of fish over all of the other states
2 in the southeast overall.
3
But, you know, there's always areas of
4 improvement. Things we could improve on and
5 we've just got concerns. Crappie fisherman
6 that I've talked to have some concern about
7 the future. In fact, taking a couple of
8 lakes, for example, on the Coosa River chain,
9 Weiss Lake has been known in the past as the
10 crappie capital of the world.
11
But for the last several years, there
12 have been some things incorporated to try to
13 re-establish that lake as the crappie capital
14 of the world. Such as the first three pole
15 limit and then the ten-inch minimum limit for
16 the fish. And now currently there is a
17 restocking program that's been going on in
18 that lake for three years.
19
So we look at it and say, well, what's
20 going to bring us back to the extent it was
21 in the past? I think what we're going to
22 have to do is prevent so many fish from being
23 taken out of the lake. We can look at that
0022
1 lake with a ten-inch minimum size and we can
2 fish that lake and we take a lot of nine
3 inch, nine and a half inch fish. So what
4 happens to the fish ten inches and above?
5 Might be they're taken out too quickly.
6
On the other hand, we're looking at Logan
7 Martin Lake on the banks of the Coosa River
8 chain. Two lakes below Weiss. We know the
9 history of Logan Martin Lake. We had some
10 contamination from PCBs dumped into the lake.
11 As a result of that, there was a fish

12 advisory implemented for that lake. As a
13 result of that, the fishing pressure
14 diminished on that lake for a number of
15 years.
16
But without taking fish out of the lake
17 for a few years because of the fish advisory,
18 in turn, this lake has been identified a
19 couple years ago in "Crappie World" magazine
20 as one of the best ten lakes in the United
21 States. Just two weeks ago or three weeks
22 ago, the "Birmingham News" identified Logan
23 Martin Lake as one of the best crappie lakes
0023
1 in the state of Alabama.
2
So what are we looking at? Was it
3 because the fish weren't taken out of there
4 and they were allowed greater spawn time and
5 fish were allowed to get to a quality size?
6 If so, maybe we need to look at something in
7 addition to the pole limits and length limits
8 and so on. Maybe it's time again to look at
9 the reduction of the limit for certain of the
10 fish that they're able to take out of the
11 lake.
12
All of us can remember not long ago the
13 limit on crappie being taken per person per
14 day was fifty. Now it's thirty. But when we
15 think of thirty crappie, we're thinking of
16 sixty per lake. Now in the springtime when
17 the spawn is going on and the crappie are so
18 easy to catch, we know that people catch a
19 lot of crappie, filet them, put them in their
20 freezer. And much as we hate to say, a lot
21 of times, they're thrown out because of
22 freezer burn or something at the end of the
23 year.
0024
1
We might need to reduce this to a smaller
2 number per person and continue to promote
3 catch and release. We -- in reference back
4 to Weiss Lake, we know that a lot of times,
5 we have fishing guides that have clients
6 (inaudible) fish per day. Currently, they're

7 allowed ninety fish per day. And the most
8 productive time for these guides fishing is
9 in the spring when the fish are spawning.
10
That's a lot of fish to be taken out of
11 the lake in one day. And oftentimes, there
12 may be several guides taking them during one
13 week. So we need to -- that's all legal.
14 I'm not saying that they're doing anything
15 illegal. But we might need to look at the
16 possibly of reduction of the number of fish
17 per person to be taken out.
18
And I think that with this, we can
19 continue to look at our lakes in the state of
20 Alabama as some of the most productive as far
21 as quality and quantity of crappie fish in
22 the United States. Thank you.
23
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr.
0025
1 Kendrick. Next will be Mr. Joe Thomas from
2 Pell City.
3
MR. THOMAS: Good morning. My name
4 is Joe Thomas. I live in -5
9
10
MR. THOMAS: Getting back on what
11 Mr. Kendrick said, I've been fishing the
12 Coosa chain, mostly Weiss Lake up until about
13 five years ago. And if you want to look at
14 history repeating in the past, you can look
15 at Weiss Lake.
16
It's my understanding at the (inaudible),
17 there's about thirty thousand out of state
18 fishing licenses sold in Cherokee County
19 alone every year.
20
The Lake Association saw what was going
21 on there and what first became the problem
22 was stripes in Weiss Lake were eating the
23 crappie up. So we changed the deal at Weiss
0026
1 Lake where you can catch the big stripes and

2 all and get them out of there because they're
3 eating the crappie. Well, that didn't work
4 because you can't control it.
5
The trollers are taking the fish out of
6 there. So they got all these trollers taking
7 all these fish out of there. Well, that
8 didn't work. So we reduced the pole limit to
9 three there. And we went to a ten-inch limit
10 (inaudible). You've got all these out of
11 state fisherman coming with guides and now
12 we're -- if you take so many out, you got to
13 put them back in. And the restocking program
14 is working and this is the best year they've
15 had.
16
On pole limits, it doesn't matter if
17 you've got four poles or forty poles, if
18 you've got a limit, fifteen fish, twenty
19 fish, that's all you can catch. And these
20 guys that are out here enforcing it
21 (inaudible).
22
If you go to Weiss Lake, you got to have
23 three poles. If you go to Neely Henry,
0027
1 you've got to have two poles. You can have
2 fifty poles on Logan Martin. I ask you if
3 you advise any more pole limits, standardize
4 it all over Alabama. Make it four poles
5 statewide. I have no problem with that
6 (inaudible). But don't make it three here
7 and then you can have -- you know, I wish you
8 would look at going to the ten-inch limit
9 statewide. It works.
10
That's all I have basically on crappie
11 fishing. One thing that y'all do -- have any
12 influence on legislation, I'd like to see
13 stiffer fines on littering on these lakes.
14 The last few months you've seen Alabama Power
15 and some of the local TV stations picking up
16 litter. I think five tons on Logan Martin
17 Lake. And I would love to see a stiff stiff
18 fine on littering on lakes.
19
It really bothers me that these people
20 spend all their time picking up litter and

21 you see folks throwing beer cans, Coke cans
22 and Vienna sausage cans over the side of the
23 boat and think nothing about it. They
0028
1 wouldn't do it in their front yard and I
2 don't think (inaudible) make it a real stiff
3 fine.
4
As Mr. Kendrick said, we travel several
5 states and an idea that I have seen in
6 Indiana and in looking -- I've got a brochure
7 on handicapped fishing accessibility. In
8 Indiana, every public launch has a ramp that
9 you can get into the boat off the water out
10 on a ramp -- a wheelchair. It's complicated
11 how to explain it. You would have to see it.
12 But I'd like to see more of that -- public
13 ramps for handicapped accessibility.
14
And also in Indiana, they have idle speed
15 only in the creek channels. And I know that
16 can be a real problem with jet skis. Don't
17 run by you while you're fishing. And that's
18 all I've got. Thank you.
19
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
20 Next we'll hear on the Deer-Antler
21 Restriction. Mr. Kenny Childree from
22 Cullman, Alabama.
23
MR. CHILDREE: Good morning, my
0029
1 name is Kenny Childree. I'm from Cullman,
2 Alabama. I'm a lifelong resident of Barbour
3 County. I strongly support the quality deer
4 management program that is proposed for our
5 county. My support has not been influenced
6 by the overwhelming support shown by the
7 polls nor by the biological data given by the
8 wildlife biologist. I support this program
9 because of what I have seen and experienced
10 personally.
11
For the last twenty-nine year, I have
12 hunted my family property which borders the
13 Barbour Wildlife Management area. Prior to
14 Barbour going to the three point buck rule, I
15 was like most deer hunters. I shot whatever

16 buck I saw and whatever buck came by. I
17 especially shot the deer if I thought it was
18 headed toward the Barbour WMA because they
19 would kill it if it made it that far.
20
It was a case of I'll shoot the deer
21 before somebody else does. When Barbour
22 adopted their three point rule, all of that
23 changed. We, too, went to the three point
0030
1 rule. We no longer shoot the younger bucks
2 and we promote wild deer management on our
3 property.
4
Since then, we have noticed a noticeable
5 increase in size of the deer and the number
6 of bucks. This program does work. And I, as
7 well as others, that border Barbour County
8 WMA have benefited from this rule.
9
One should realize that no one is trying
10 to place a number limit on bucks. No one is
11 trying to stop the doe harvest. No one is
12 trying to change doe days. And no one is
13 trying to stop dog deer hunting.
14
Our request has one purpose and one
15 purpose only. And that is to protect younger
16 bucks. Remember, it wasn't too many years
17 ago when there was just a few days of doe
18 days at the end of the season. It was
19 considered taboo to be a doe killer.
20
Then we had more days at Christmas and
21 now we have doe days all season long and we
22 can kill two does on those days. It is no
23 longer considered wrong to harvest bucks and
0031
1 it is actually promoted by the biologists.
2
All the focus has been on doe harvest and
3 now it's time to focus on the bucks. Let's
4 protect these young bucks. Please vote for
5 this motion.
6
In the five years that this program will
7 go on, at the end of these five years, if
8 it's a bad idea, it'll be obvious. And if
9 it's a good idea and I truly believe that it
10 will be, that will be obvious, too. Please

11 give the hunters of Barbour County an
12 opportunity to try it. Thank you very much.
13
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr.
14 Childree. Next we'll have Steve Guy from
15 Montgomery.
16
MR. GUY: Commissioner, Chairman,
17 members of the Board, my name is Steve Guy.
18 I'm director of the (inaudible) wildlife
19 division of the Alabama Farmers Federation.
20 Our organization represents over four hundred
21 and sixty thousand members in Alabama. We
22 represent private landowners and farmers who
23 own and manage the majority of the wildlife
0032
1 habitat in this state.
2
I'm here today to speak in favor of the
3 proposed minimum three point buck limit in
4 Barbour County. Our organization through
5 it's policy process has endorsed this
6 proposal.
7
Our Barbour County Farmers Federation
8 Board representing over forty-five thousand
9 acres in Barbour County have unanimously
10 endorsed this proposal. Based on the data
11 that has been gathered from the Barbour
12 County management area and studied from other
13 states, we have seen that this works. And we
14 feel that this rule will improve the quality
15 of the deer herd in Barbour County. We also
16 feel that this will benefit both small and
17 large landowners.
18
Public meetings and hunter surveys have
19 been held in Barbour County. The results
20 have shown overwhelming support for this
21 rule. We ask that you folks endorse the
22 minimum three point buck limit in Barbour
23 County when the motion is made. Thank you.
0033
1
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Guy.
2 Next we have Grady Hartzog, Eufaula.
3
MR. HARTZOG: Good morning,
4 Gentlemen. Can you hear me?
5
I'm Grady Hartzog. I'm from Eufaula,
6 Alabama. I'm a lifelong resident of Barbour
7 County. I'm on the executive board of the
8 Wildlife Federation. I'm here today to ask
9 you to vote for the three point rule. The
10 Wildlife Federation -- y'all have a letter on
11 your desk where the Wildlife Federation has
12 endorsed the five year study in which to do
13 the three point antler rule.
14
If you remember, I was here in February
15 before the Board and the Chamber of Commerce
16 had done a survey. Came out ninety plus
17 percent was in favor. The State came down,
18 Gary Moody and the biologists and did a
19 survey in Slyol (phonetically spelled) and
20 Clayton and Eufaula and y'all have got a copy
21 of those results.
22
And from a biological standpoint, from a
23 management standpoint, the biggest thing I
0034
1 see in this thing is the -- it's shown that
2 the studies that were done on management
3 areas, we have a tremendous increase in doe
4 take. We feel like that biological reason
5 alone is enough to pass this thing in order
6 to get the herds a better ratio.
7
But I just -- you guys (inaudible) but
8 one of the comments that was done and y'all
9 have got the copies of this but it says -10 and I think this is a good comment. It says:
11 Let's allow Barbour County to set the new
12 standards for the state of Alabama in
13 harvesting quality bucks. I'd like to just
14 ask for your support in passing this rule.
15 Thank you. Any questions?
16
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Hartzog.
17
18 (Whereupon, Robin indicated that the speaker
19 would need to speak into a microphone.)
20
21
MR. PORTER: Grady, in the handouts
22 that I've looked at that you've given us,
23 y'all have stated seven objectives that
0035
1 you're trying to achieve as stated in those
2 handouts.
3
MR. HARTZOG: The objective is how
4 to better help your herd. In order to do
5 that, allow the younger bucks to walk to
6 mature to get in that breeding class, the A
7 class in which to breed. And, also, from the
8 next standpoint, to reduce the doe buck
9 ratio. Probably Barbour County has the
10 eight/ten doe/buck ratio. And, you know,
11 anybody who reads any management on deer, you
12 know, the proper ratio should be one and a
13 half to two for one so I mean if nothing else
14 it's that doe ratio.
15
MR. PORTER: And the other question
16 I had that I didn't see it unless I
17 overlooked it was what type of recordkeeping
18 or records in reporting do y'all recommend be
19 done to be able to measure the actual program
20 itself?
21
MR. HARTZOG: We have talked about
22 using statistical samples and having
23 different plugs to pull y'all along the way
0036
1 just like they've done in the previous
2 quality deer management. We feel like that
3 if we get enough clubs spread throughout the
4 county and with the deer harvesters that we
5 feel like the biologists can get a good
6 enough representative sample to determine
7 whether or not the public (inaudible). And
8 like I said, all this is is a request for a
9 five-year trial. If it works, it works. If
10 it doesn't, it doesn't. But if we don't try
11 it, we know it won't ever work.
12
MR. STRICKLAND: All right. Let me
13 ask you a question.
14
MR. HARTZOG: Yes, sir.
15
MR. STRICKLAND: What kind of
16 support do you have from the local hunters?
17
MR. HARTZOG: When the Chamber of
18 Commerce -- when this first came out, what -file:///C|/Documents%20and%20Settings/JPERRY/My%20Documents/AdvisoryBoard/boardmeeting052105.txt (20 of 87)10/14/2005 9:06:30 AM
19 the Barbour County Management area completed

20 the five-year study and we're proposing the
21 same rules that the management area uses.
22 They just published their five-year results.
23 In fact, that article was published in the
0037
1 Alabama Wildlife Federation magazine. It
2 shows the results of doing that study.
3
The Commissioner came down and had a
4 thing. That's kind of how it all got
5 started. When the Commissioner came down and
6 spoke to the Rotary Club, several Rotary Club
7 members said, you know, that sounds so good.
8 Why can't we have it countywide?
9
And so there were several of us that got
10 together. Ken White with the local paper ran
11 a couple of newspaper articles about it. We
12 then funded advertising in which we just
13 asked people to vote on-line. With the
14 Chamber of Commerce, we used a neutral site.
15 And also had ballots printed in all the
16 papers in Barbour County where people could
17 vote the ballot. And we ended up with ninety
18 plus percent in favor.
19
When the State came down, when Gary and
20 Bill and all came down and did the study and
21 we got a copy of the study they did, it was
22 tremendously -- what did it end up, Gary?
23 Ninety? Ninety-plus percent in favor. I
0038
1 mean the public is behind it.
2
We've got -- the Chamber of Commerce
3 passed a resolution. You know, all the -4 Mayor and everybody -- you know, everybody in
5 Barbour County is supporting it and behind
6 it.
7
MR. STRICKLAND: Thank you.
8
MR. PORTER: Going back to that
9 last point. Just looking at the statistics
10 and it shows only eighty-eight people
11 responded which is, what, three tenths of one
12 percent of the entire population?
13
Do you have any explanation about why the
14 public hasn't shown much interest?

15
MR. HARTZOG: We ended up with over
16 three hundred votes. And with the Chamber of
17 Commerce, it was three hundred and twenty-one
18 votes, the Chamber of Commerce did. One
19 thing that's probably -- I don't know this
20 but I've had several comments and all of
21 these were held at like 6:00 on an afternoon.
22
A lot of guys with farming and that type
23 of stuff, you know, Daylight Savings Time,
0039
1 were still in the field. You know, it might
2 have been better if we'd have done it at 7:00
3 o'clock or whatever. But whether we use a
4 three hundred vote count that the Chamber did
5 or just discount it, it's still ninety
6 percent. So statistically -7
MR. PORTER: Ninety percent of
8 those who -9
MR. HARTZOG: Who attended this and
10 ninety percent of the people that voted on
11 the -12
MR. PORTER: My question is: Do
13 you think the fact that we voted this down in
14 the last meeting had any effect on the lack
15 of interest in attending these meetings?
16
MR. HARTZOG: No. No. There were
17 a lot of people -- in fact, I had asked
18 whether or not I could have a copy of the
19 survey to go give to people who couldn't make
20 the meetings. And we just said, well, no.
21 There are plenty of people that are attending
22 the meetings.
23
MR. PORTER: So you would agree
0040
1 with me that even the three hundred would be
2 a very small percentage of the people that
3 hunt in Barbour County?
4
MR. HARTZOG: Yeah. But, Jim,
5 statistically if you look at (inaudible), the
6 State of Alabama itself, the Conservation
7 Department, is diverting Federal funds from
8 one program to another on a smaller survey
9 than that statewide.

10
Any other questions? Thank you, Guys. I
11 appreciate y'all supporting it.
12
MR. COLES: Thank you, Grady. Next
13 we'll hear from Don Knight of Anniston.
14
MR. KNIGHT: I do want to come back
15 and speak when it's dog hunting time, too,
16 but I wanted to speak on the three point law
17 or rule.
18
MR. COLES: Which do you want to
19 speak on? For or against the dog hunting
20 because we have two topics.
21
MR. KNIGHT: The one that I'm on
22 now is against.
23
MR. COLES: When you come back, you
0041
1 want to speak on dog hunting for.
2
MR. KNIGHT: But I'm Don Knight and
3 I've been hunting in Barbour County for over
4 twenty years. And I just want you to
5 understand. Mr. Porter, you've got a good
6 point on there on the number of people.
7
I attended one of those meetings and the
8 only way I got to attend that meeting was I
9 found out about it because one of the men
10 called me about it. Only place they were
11 advertised was in Barbour County. And I
12 don't have any facts to back this up other
13 than hunting in Barbour County for twenty
14 years, people I talk to that hunt down there,
15 most of them do not live in Barbour County.
16
They did not know about these rules that
17 are going on so they wouldn't attend the
18 meetings. That's why you had ninety percent
19 attending these meetings for. People that
20 hunt in Barbour County which I think is the
21 majority of folks that don't live there
22 weren't notified in any way.
23
First off, if there's a biological reason
0042
1 to hunt three point and better on one side,
2 I'll support it a hundred percent if there is
3 a biological reason. I haven't heard one.
4 This is going to hurt our youth. It's going

5 to hurt our senior citizens. It's going to
6 hurt us because we're going to have to -- as
7 dog hunters -- and I'll get into that later.
8
But it's going to hurt us because we're
9 going to have to let that four pointer and
10 that spike go and our dogs going across that
11 line and creating our neighbor some problems
12 that they don't want.
13
We don't need that. We need to the stop
14 that race and I've told you before or maybe
15 it was in the meeting down there, our club is
16 killing bigger deer right now than we have in
17 the past fifteen years. We've killing huge
18 deer. Big horn.
19
I just get amazed at these people that
20 think not shooting these little deer is going
21 to make a difference. We're not killing
22 enough of those small bucks to make a
23 difference. They're going to grow up. We're
0043
1 going to have plenty of deer. Biggest thing
2 you've got to do is feed them in the off
3 season and not hunt over the bait.
4
Barbour County, what I see and I hope you
5 see is that I see a baiting bill trying to be
6 passed through our legislature sponsored by a
7 person from Barbour County. If they get that
8 baiting bill and then they get this three
9 point and they start advertising hunting over
10 baiting in (inaudible), it won't be long that
11 you won't be able to lease land in Barbour
12 County if you live in the state. There won't
13 be any need to lease it. They'll be able to
14 put them up a shooting house, a green field
15 and baiting some way and they'll make
16 themselves eight hundred dollars a week for
17 people to come in from out of state hunting.
18 We don't want that.
19
Another thing I'm going to ask you to
20 look at on this: What are we going to do
21 raising deer off so we can have a trophy on
22 our wall. Are we devaluing the life of a
23 deer in this country today? Are we turning

0044
1 it into some kind of God by number of points
2 on his head? Or do we need to be hunting
3 that deer like the Good Lord gave us the
4 dominion over them, taking care of our herd
5 and being sure they're there for our
6 youngsters when they come up to hunt?
7
I want you to take a long look at this
8 before we pass it. It was voted down last
9 time and it come up again. I want you to
10 take a long look at it and see if we need to
11 make outlaws out of good honest hunters today
12 for leaving their deer in the woods because
13 it had horns on it above the hairline.
14
Do we punish our children that haven't
15 killed a deer? My grandson killed his first
16 two deer this year. The first one was a
17 spike. I wouldn't have took a million
18 dollars for that kid's face when he killed
19 that spike. Don't take that away from our
20 youth.
21
I know you've already put in there that
22 the youth on the youth hunting day in Barbour
23 Management area will be able to shoot the
0045
1 small deer. Is that fair to the rest of the
2 kids that's going to hunt in Barbour County
3 the rest of the year that can't get down
4 there on that day? Stop and look at it.
5
We ask you to think a long time before
6 you pass this rule on the three pointers
7 because it's going to have an effect on all
8 of the hunting in the state of Alabama. And
9 I personally feel like it will take the
10 average wage earner in Alabama totally out of
11 hunting in Barbour County.
12
Those deer down there -- and one of the
13 reasons I think this thing should have been
14 notified statewide, that deer, no matter
15 whose land it's on, belongs to everybody in
16 the state of Alabama. Not that landowner.
17 Not the people in Barbour County. It belongs
18 to the people of the state. They need to be

19 considered before anything's passed against
20 the deer in the state of Alabama.
21
I just ask you to consider it and I hope
22 the vote comes up like it did before. Thank
23 you.
0046
1
MR. HATLEY: Don, do you, as a dog
2 deer hunter, do you believe in deer
3 management?
4
MR. KNIGHT: Absolutely. To give
5 you an example of that, our club when dog
6 deer hunting goes out, we still hunt the land
7 the last few weeks of the year. We have a
8 six point or better rule on our club. We
9 support the program. We've not killed any
10 does those last few weeks because we figure
11 they've been breed and we want them to have
12 those deer so we can look at them next year.
13
But that should be my call and the
14 landowner's call; not the State's call. We
15 will support all day the landowners and the
16 people leasing the land making that decision.
17 We do it on our club. We support that very
18 much.
19
And, also, I want to say one more thing.
20 After I attended that meeting in Eufaula -21 and I wasn't going to bring this up but I
22 just feel like it needs to be.
23
After I attended that meeting in Eufaula,
0047
1 I received a phone call from an unlisted
2 number on my cell phone. How they got my
3 cell phone, I don't know. But I was told
4 point blank, our lease would be pulled if I
5 continued to support this. And I didn't
6 appreciate that at all. Our lease in Barbour
7 County would be pulled if I came up here and
8 spoke. We'll, I'm here. If they want to
9 pull it, pull it. Thank you.
10
MR. COLES: Next on the subject of
11 deer management will be Mr. Howard Burns from
12 Hayden, Alabama. I beg your pardon. Excuse
13 me. Mr. Ken White from Eufaula.

14
MR. WHITE: Good morning,
15 Gentleman. I'm Ken White. I'm from Eufaula,
16 Alabama. Y'all notice -17
21
22
MR. WHITE: Gentlemen, I appreciate
23 the opportunity to come up here and talk to
0048
1 you for just a second. I've listed mine this
2 morning under management, deer management,
3 instead of antler restrictions because I do
4 believe in quality deer management. I also
5 support the Barbour County QDM proposal.
6
Nine years ago, I started out on a
7 journey that ended up with me standing here
8 now. And that was to try to help get Barbour
9 County Wildlife Management Area QDM program
10 on the line. I was one of the primary
11 supporters of it. I have followed it through
12 the years. And now, I was one of the ones
13 that asked a question.
14
Are Barbour County owners ready to make a
15 change? Are they ready to accept the
16 challenges of QDM and are they ready to go
17 through the pains that QDM will cause
18 probably for the first year or two to get the
19 results that we saw at the Barbour County
20 Wildlife Management Area?
21
I don't expect those results to hold true
22 over the entire county but the improvement
23 that we will see I think justifies your
0049
1 positive vote for this.
2
I would also say this: We are looking at
3 this based on Barbour County Wildlife
4 Management Area results for Barbour County.
5 We know -- I know from reading and I know
6 from the studies that I have done and
7 listening to the experts, what we're
8 proposing in Barbour County is not going to

9 work all over the state of Alabama.
10
But the proposal that is in front of you
11 right now is based on real data produced from
12 the Barbour County Wildlife Management Areas
13 for Barbour County. And I would ask for your
14 support for this QDM program. Thank you.
15
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. White.
16 Next we will hear from Mr. Howard Burns from
17 Hayden, Alabama.
18
MR. BURNS: My subject is deer in
19 general but I wanted to address dog hunting
20 and antler restrictions. If you want me to
21 break that up and come back, I'll be glad to.
22
MR. COLES: Whatever you want to
23 do.
0050
1
MR. BURNS: I can tie it up real
2 short. Like I say, my name is Howard Burns
3 and I'm from Hayden in Blount County,
4 Alabama. I think that the restrictions are
5 just about telling somebody else what to do,
6 try to do with them, get them to go along
7 with what you want to do.
8
And as far as management of the deer
9 herd, I think that what is happening with
10 antler restrictions is that they're taking
11 the model of the anti-dog hunters. That
12 started up in North Alabama and what happens
13 now is anyone who's against dog hunting has
14 stepped up here and said, oh, I've having
15 trouble with this dog hunter. Mark out this
16 county. Block out this county. Well -- and
17 we've just come on down the state.
18
Now you want the antler restrictions
19 started in Barbour County. What's going to
20 happen there, it's going to be just flowing
21 right up and those two are going to meet.
22 Because taking away the rights of the public
23 hunter, that is not right.
0051
1
And another thing about these polls and
2 statistics that they take, such a small
3 percentage. Give me a statistician, I can

4 give you one to match that. And let me ask
5 you if you have ever heard a politician on
6 the eve of an election say that his polls
7 don't show that he's going to win. Those
8 things should be considered.
9
On the restrictions on the dog hunting, I
10 think we should turn everything over to our
11 conservation department. If they see a
12 biologic need, we will comply with that.
13 We'll be glad to comply with that. There
14 needs to be a biologic need. Get cities,
15 towns involved in promoting hunting or not
16 hunting. Well, does commerce slip in there?
17 Does tourism come in there? What we want is
18 to address the needs of the public hunter.
19
And I just ask you to consider that when
20 you take that vote. Back off on the
21 restrictions. Let us hunt. Let the
22 law-abiding citizens abide by the law and by
23 the guidelines set out by the conservation
0052
1 department. We appreciate the opportunity to
2 speak here today.
3
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Burns.
4 Next we'll hear from Mark Craig from
5 Huntsville.
6
MR. CRAIG: Thank you. My name is
7 Mark Craig. I live in Huntsville in Madison
8 County. And I want to thank you for what
9 y'all do for all of us.
10
Secondly, I'm here today as a voice for a
11 dear friend of mine who no longer has a voice
12 or a say so in any of this. As you heard Ms.
13 Boyanton say earlier, I'm here today on Ben
14 Boyanton's behalf.
15
I would ask you to look very closely at
16 the safety belt regulation on private land as
17 it is for management areas and State-owned
18 land.
19
The last thing I want anybody to get is
20 the phone call that I got from Amy saying Ben
21 didn't come home. Well, I called the other
22 gentleman here with us and he and myself

23 drive to Jackson County up in Stevenson, get
0053
1 there after dark and are going through the
2 woods with flashlights looking for a dear
3 friend of yours is not real fun.
4
And low and behold when you -- lucky we
5 knew where he would be, where he went all the
6 time. And low and behold, we got down there
7 and found what we had to find. And even
8 worse than that is having to call back and
9 tell someone's wife that, yes, we found him.
10 And them ask you how he is. It's very very
11 unpleasant. It's something that sticks with
12 you for a long time.
13
And I would just ask you to please
14 consider safety belt regulations on
15 private-owned land for the state of Alabama.
16
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Craig.
17 Next we'll hear from George Ellison from
18 Dothan, Alabama.
19
MR. ELLISON: I'm George Ellison
20 from Dothan, Alabama. I own property in
21 Henry County. First of all, I'd like to
22 thank the Commission and Vernon Lawley for
23 all the does for crossbow.
0054
1
We had asked earlier in the year for
2 consideration for scopes for crossbows. Same
3 reason that we got crossbows. And also they
4 be included for turkey season due to
5 (inaudible) that was going on before this
6 (inaudible) Mr. Lawley and the Board
7 (inaudible) induced there to let that slide
8 for next year.
9
Also, I'd like to say that since a
10 certain name has been mentioned that Rick
11 Yeagers does not speak for the landowners in
12 Henry County.
13
Getting to the permit system, I'd like to
14 say that I've attended several meetings both
15 in Henry and other counties. I'm aware that
16 the permit system is an individual system and
17 it must work for an individual area. Lot of

18 input, a lot of different things that apply.
19
But I can tell you that for our county,
20 Henry County, that last year the groups who
21 violated this permit system were restricted
22 this year. And I appreciate Commissioner and
23 Chief Andress for this.
0055
1
Many groups that had problems cleaned up
2 their acts and last year, they had no
3 violations whatsoever. This speaks positive
4 on behalf that where a permit system will
5 work, there are those that will recognize
6 this and they will respond to it.
7
On behalf of those who do not recognize
8 it who continue to violate this, it tells me
9 that we have in position officers. We have a
10 Commissioner that would definitely react to
11 their attitude.
12
So I would just like to say to this
13 Board, I appreciate -- and, again, that I
14 know that the permit system has to be
15 addressed on a local level and that local
16 needs have to be met and that both sides have
17 to be in agreement and they need to sit down.
18 They do not need to wait for an eleventh hour
19 reprieve.
20
And just let me say again, I appreciate
21 the way it's working in Henry County and I
22 appreciate the direction that we're going. I
23 know that there are other problems that we
0056
1 need to work out and we're working toward
2 that. And I appreciate that so much and I
3 appreciate having the opportunity to work
4 towards working these problems out. Thank
5 you.
6
MR. COLES: Thank you, George.
7 Next we'll hear from Allen Hawkins.
8
MR. HAWKINS: I'm Allen Hawkins,
9 Cullman County, President of North Creek
10 Hunting Club. We have approximately two
11 thousand acres leased in the lower end of
12 Cullman, County.
13
I'm very much against horn restrictions.
14 I've been president of this club for about
15 eighteen years. At one time, we set our own
16 restrictions four points or better on our
17 club. We did this for five years. In five
18 years' time, we had messed up four points,
19 cow horn spikes and four and five and six
20 year old deer. And we went back to taking
21 these deer. And till this day, we are still
22 taking five and six-year-old deer cow horn
23 spikes.
0057
1
And the weight we're up to after about
2 five years -- the weight dropped off and we'd
3 wait every year and record every deer. We've
4 done it for the past fifteen years. We could
5 see what we're doing on our property and
6 we've managed it to the best of our knowledge
7 to what works for us.
8
Everything doesn't work for every area.
9 And we need to keep this up to the individual
10 landowners. And that's all I have to say.
11 Thank you.
12
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Hawkins.
13 Next we'll hear from Dale Jones.
14
MR. JONES: Good morning. My name
15 is Dale Jones. Again, I live in Jefferson
16 County, Alabama. I primarily hunt in
17 southeast Alabama. I'd like to thank our
18 members for being here today. Mr. Lawley,
19 I'd like to thank you for the work you've
20 done along with the Board members and our new
21 member. Robin, where's she at? I'd like to
22 thank her. She makes things work. If you
23 call down there to Montgomery and you ask to
0058
1 speak to somebody, if she tells they're going
2 to call you back, they're going to call you
3 back.
4
And the other officers of the
5 Conservation and Natural Resources we have
6 here today, I thank you for all that y'all
7 do. We complain about y'all a lot but

8 everything in here would be a lot less
9 without you.
10
I ran for Judge last year in Jefferson
11 County and lost by three percent. I found
12 out how complicated things actually are in
13 politics. I started looking at a lot of
14 decision that Mr. Lawley has to make and the
15 Board members. We put y'all on our prayer
16 list because you make everybody happy.
17 Everybody pulling at you. And you've got a
18 tough job. We appreciate what you do
19 although we don't always agree with you.
20
There was one point that I was wanting to
21 ask. I understand that the Board is going to
22 vote on what was brought up at the last
23 meeting. I didn't know if that was the
0059
1 understanding. I missed the last meeting.
2 And I didn't know that some of terms expired
3 on the Board members. Are they still in
4 voting capacity? I just didn't know who I
5 needed to be calling and be kissing up to.
6 If they ain't on the Board, it's a wasted
7 phone call. All right.
8
I've seen a lot of good things over the
9 state the last couple years. We've had
10 different -11
MR. LAWLEY: I was just going to
12 answer your question about the Board members.
13
MR. JONES: Yes, sir.
14
MR. LAWLEY: The way it is that the
15 Board members will serve in the same capacity
16 until a replacement is named for him. The
17 Governor appoints members of the Advisory
18 Board. So Mr. Harbin and Mr. Hatley will be
19 the same member they were at the last meeting
20 when the vote is passed and in whatever they
21 do until they're either reappointed or the
22 Governor appoints someone new.
23
MR. JONES: Yes, sir. Thank you.
0060
1 Mr. Hatley, Mr. Harbin, I don't remember
2 saying anything bad about y'all today but if

3 I did, I take it back. I didn't mean it.
4
I'd like to point out some of the good
5 things we've seen. We've allowed different
6 means of funding to try to bring different
7 folks in and y'all stepped up and did that.
8
Y'all allowed hunting at Oak Mountain
9 which was just a phenomenal thing. A lot of
10 people said it would never happen. But not
11 only did it open the area for hunting but it
12 educated the public in Birmingham that only
13 hears about how bad hunters are. Blood
14 thirsty killers of Bambi.
15
So what conservation and hunting does, it
16 went a lot further than just opening up an
17 area to a few hunters. It took a lot of
18 courage to step out on that because you could
19 have got your head chopped off. Thank you
20 for doing that.
21
Moving the meeting around to allow
22 different people to come to the meeting.
23 We're not -- although it was nice to go to
0061
1 Gulf Shores and rent a place down there, by
2 moving the meeting around, you've showed
3 you're openness that you want more people to
4 participate in these meetings. We thank you
5 for that.
6
The dog hunters. I'm Vice President of
7 the Alabama Doghunters Association. The
8 clubs I've kept up with have had a phenomenal
9 last couple of years. They've killed more
10 deer and bigger deer and just happy to hear
11 that.
12
We had a member of our Advisory Board
13 this year, folks, that went around and heard
14 all about the complaints. I don't know that
15 that's happened before. A lot of times,
16 people will polarize and they don't want to
17 go to hear everybody and all sides of it. We
18 had a member this year that actually drove
19 around to people's houses and talked to them
20 whether they was for dog hunting, against dog
21 hunting or whatever other problems they had.

22 And that don't happen too often. I may not
23 mention his name because he may vote for
0062
1 something I don't like later. But it
2 actually happened this year. And, actually,
3 it was Mr. Coles that did that. It don't
4 happen too often and we thank you for taking
5 the time to do that.
6
We've had -- I don't know why. But we've
7 had a lot of young people come into coon
8 hunting over the last couple of years. In
9 East Alabama where this one guy -- I went up
10 by the high school up there, there was dog
11 boxes in these trucks in a lot of these
12 outlying areas. Hayden -- I've seen a lot of
13 kids with dog boxes. They're not deer
14 hunting. They're coon hunting. I don't know
15 why but anytime these young folks get into
16 something, that obviously goes back to
17 they're being encouraged somewhere and it's
18 good to see them there.
19
Youth Day. Thank you for Youth Day. My
20 five-year-old killed his first deer last year
21 on Youth Day. I don't understand why we
22 haven't had that before but it was -- Mr.
23 Lawley done that and that was great. I'll
0063
1 never forget that. That'll be a memory I
2 have the rest of my life. (inaudible) deer
3 out there and my five-year-old killed a
4 hundred and forty pound spike. It's a great
5 day.
6
But to go along with the good, we've had
7 some bad. I think our materialism ourself
8 has never been higher than it is now. We
9 watch these TV shows and read these hunting
10 magazines where all you -- all that is, is
11 you lease the land or pay for a hunt and you
12 sit on a green field and you kill a twelve
13 point buck. And unfortunately, that's what
14 it's coming to.
15
I work with a group of attorneys -- and I
16 said this a few years ago and you laughed but

17 it's not funny any more. It's normal. They
18 pay five thousand dollars to take their
19 family to a three-day hunt where they're
20 taken out in the morning and put into an
21 elevated shooting stand that has a heater and
22 internet connection. They're picked up at
23 lunch and then they're taken back out that
0064
1 afternoon.
2
That three thousand, five thousand
3 dollars they're spending is more than most of
4 the hunting clubs I know of in South Alabama
5 spend their entire week. And it's just
6 coming into a have and have not world.
7
I've been told this by the conservation
8 department for the past fifteen years.
9 Didn't want to think it was coming to that
10 but it's getting there in a hurry.
11
Our timber company folks. I don't know
12 if this is the proper place to bring it up
13 but we've got one timber company (inaudible)
14 pull out of the State management area and
15 lease their land. They're going to lease it
16 to the highest bidder. They've already got a
17 list. A lot of them are from out of state.
18 That's not happening because we have a bad
19 commissioner or bad people in the biology
20 department. It's because of flat out money.
21 And if it happens once, it's going to happen
22 over again and over. I don't know what can
23 be done about that but it's something that I
0065
1 was hoping this board could put together and
2 study.
3
Public opinion. We're starting to run a
4 lot of things by public opinion. Public
5 opinion -- I ran for election last year.
6 Public opinion is money. When I ran out of
7 money, I ran out of public opinion. That's
8 just the facts. And money is also
9 statistics.
10
We've got one county right now -- and I
11 don't what y'all are going to do with the

12 three point restriction. I don't hunt down
13 there. It's none of my business.
14
But eventually you're going to have to
15 decide if you have one group that want the
16 three point restriction because it's going to
17 help the county and it's in the management
18 area and it's doing better. And the
19 management area is doing better and there's
20 bigger deer.
21
You've got the other part of the county
22 including Don Knight's clubs and a lot of big
23 dog clubs that's killing better deer than
0066
1 they've ever killed because they have looked
2 at it: We're going to keep our deer
3 population below the carrying capacity of the
4 land. And they're killing bigger deer by
5 shooting -- basically for years, they shot
6 everything that they seen. Now they're
7 killing fewer deer but they had one deer that
8 was on Rick and Bubba and on TV that they
9 killed on their property last year.
10
So it's public opinion versus biology. I
11 don't know. Biology -- whichever side it's
12 on, looks like that's where we need to be
13 going and that's one thing I'm really hereto
14 talk about today.
15
The deer farming. I do have a point to
16 my rambling because some of these issues -17 deer farming, deer farming, deer farming is
18 all I'm hearing now. I'm hearing it from the
19 White-tail Institute and their magazines.
20
I'm hearing from the enclosure folks.
21 I'm hearing from Birmingham, the people that
22 hunt enclosures and all enclosures and stuff.
23 Is anybody here in the deer farming business?
0067
1 I thought we was in the conservation
2 business.
3
Deer farming business is enclosures is
4 basically going to be the highest bidder who
5 can pay for that deer. It's nobody in this
6 room typically. I was hoping it was

7 something that could be addressed by the
8 Board at some point. Because it's not
9 happening in the legislature. I'm a
10 (inaudible) Democrat and I hate to say this
11 but it's crossed the line. It's a Republican
12 and Democrat issue. There's some big money
13 and big hands in our legislature that will
14 not ever let anything be passed through our
15 legislature about egress or ingress of an
16 enclosure.
17
High land rental is just wiping out a lot
18 of our trailer park hunters. And I say
19 trailer park hunters. I grew up in a trailer
20 park. I can talk about it. A lot of our
21 hunters are blue collar, lower income white
22 collar people that five hundred, six hundred
23 dollar a year lease and club memberships are
0068
1 a thing of the past and they're not being
2 able to hunt.
3
It's going to come to a point that we're
4 going to have to make the decision whether we
5 want hunter access to maximize our hunter
6 access or do we want to maximize our land
7 rental and let a few people like jerk
8 attorneys like me get to hunt while the rest
9 of y'all sit at home. That's a decision
10 that's going to be made shortly but it's not
11 being made -- it's not being made all at
12 once. It's being made piecemeal.
13
The anti-hunters said I'm a Democratic.
14 Folks, there's idiots in both parties and
15 we've had our share. I talked to some people
16 last year that are actually against hunting.
17 The things are coming in now nationally is
18 the sniper rifle which is a different type of
19 a sniper rifle. But the one sniper rifle
20 that they're looking at right now is that any
21 rifle that can kill a person at a hundred
22 yards is a sniper rifle.
23
When you start banning those type guns
0069
1 (inaudible). They've also discussed right in

2 front of me about leasing land, paying
3 whatever it takes to lease land so nobody can
4 hunt on it.
5
Then we've also had groups that have come
6 down here through the past and started out
7 we're not anti-dog hunting. We just want
8 ethical hunting. Then we heard: Well, it's
9 not the right way to hunt deer anymore
10 (inaudible). Then we've had men dressed in
11 black hunting dogs on their property in the
12 middle of the night (inaudible) they're
13 killing all the quail.
14
So year before last, it was: Let's stop
15 all dog hunters.
16
MR. COLES: You've got about thirty
17 seconds.
18
MR. JONES: I've got one minute.
19 I hope y'all can address some issues
20 especially the things that can be done in my
21 opinion right now (inaudible) y'all got out
22 that hunting enclosures is not fair taking in
23 the state of Alabama. If you want to have an
0070
1 enclosure, fine. But if you did that, it
2 would make a lot of money on it.
3
We should have a lottery for out of state
4 hunters. That would mean that they all
5 pitched in their ticket and bought a ticket
6 before and then you can draw out their names
7 there close to the season and let them hunt
8 and that would at least let us have the first
9 right to lease the land. The Education for
10 the public is not being done. And, again,
11 please don't run this stuff by public
12 opinion.
13
The other thing is we've had complaints.
14 If we're going to stop a certain group of
15 hunting by complaints especially when they're
16 not verified or because we have illegal
17 hunters, then you're going to stop all
18 hunting because you have baiting. You have
19 poaching. You have spotlighting. And if
20 that's the basis y'all are going to use to

21 stop people from hunting, you're going to
22 have to stop all of it.
23
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Jones.
0071
1 At each meeting, we alternate those that want
2 to speak for dog deer hunting and those who
3 want to speak in opposition. At this
4 particular meeting, we will hear those in
5 opposition to dog hunting. And our first
6 speaker will be Jana Clark from Addison.
7
ROBIN: And I'm sorry about the
8 microphone. We turned the air up and now we
9 can -- I know a lot of y'all can't hear.
10
MS. CLARK: I'm Jana Clark.
11
12 (Whereupon, Board members and the court
13 reporter indicated that the speaker could not
14 be heard. Adjustments to the microphone
15 system were made.)
16
17
MS. CLARK: I'm Jana Clark. I'm
18 from Addison, Alabama. I'm a landowner and
19 last year we received a restriction on dog
20 deer hunting and I would just like to thank
21 all of you who supported it. It was a lot
22 better last year.
23
0072
3 be heard. Adjustments to the microphone
4 system were made.)
5
6
MS. CLARK: Okay. My name is Jana
7 Clark and I'm from Winston County. And I'm a
8 landowner and a hunter. And last year we
9 received a restriction on dog hunting. And
10 I'd just like to thank you for your support
11 and tell you that last year was a lot better
12 than years past. Thank you.
13
MR. COLES: Next we'll hear from
14 Noble Holland. Coffee County.
15
MR. HOLLAND: I'm Noble Holland
16 from Coffee County. (inaudible) the earlier
17 meeting in Montgomery (inaudible) eighteen
18 landowners bought thirty-five acres of land
19 (inaudible) on just our land (inaudible).
20 I've heard that it was not passed but any
21 consideration in the future, we'd like to
22 have that (inaudible). We need more
23 signatures but that was ninety-five percent
0073
1 of the landowners. Thank you.
2
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Holland.
3 Next we'll hear from Paul and Larry Jefferys,
4 Detroit, Alabama.
5
MR. JEFFREYS: (Inaudible.)
6
9 be heard. Adjustments were made to the
10 microphone system.)
11
12
MR. JEFFREYS: Okay. I'm Larry
13 Jeffreys from Lamar County and I want to take
14 this time to thank y'all for the land that
15 y'all granted us and it does work. We were
16 living in a nightmare and it's over now. All
17 those clubs that (inaudible) still running
18 dogs and I just want to thank you for that.
19
Thank you for the lady. I am so sorry
20 for her husband. But I want (inaudible)
21 better joy for me than when I just
22 (inaudible) watch the deer without being
23 harassed by dogs. And I'm truly sorry for
0074
1 your husband.
2
MR. JEFFREYS: (Inaudible.)
3
4 (Whereupon, Board members indicated that the
5 speaker could not be heard. Adjustments to
6 the microphone system were made.)
7
8
MR. JEFFREYS: Three years ago this
9 month, we received a ban for dog deer hunting
10 in Lamar County. We had substantiated

11 complaints countywide. The warden followed
12 up (inaudible) and we had four convictions.
13 I'm sure some of y'all have heard the same
14 story, different place. That's statewide,
15 same story, different face. But I would like
16 to truly thank each and every one of you for
17 the ban that we received in Lamar County.
18 It's better. It truly makes a difference.
19
There are some renegades that are still
20 running and they are saying that they are
21 rabbit hunting. (inaudible) what anybody
22 else says about that. They are claiming that
23 they're rabbit hunting. There were
0075
1 sixty-nine complaints in Macon County and
2 zero arrests. But with that being said, I
3 want to thank you each one of you for making
4 things better.
5
6 Faye Thompson from Skipperville.
7
MS. THOMPSON: Good morning,
8 Commissioner Lawley and Board Members. We're
9 here today on behalf of Dale County
10 landowners (inaudible) vote to ban dogs in
11 the northeast corner of Dale County. We are
12 looking forward to regaining control of our
13 property.
14
You are to be commended for the time and
15 effort donated so freely to help the citizens
16 of this state with their conservation and
17 material resource issues. Thank you.
18
MR. COLE: Next we'll hear from
19 James Dennison of Wetumpka.
20
MR. DENNISON: Well, I'm James
21 Dennison from Wetumpka, Alabama. Can y'all
22 hear me?
23
All right. When I talk about deer
0076
1 hunting and everything, I think it should be
2 let alone. If you want to shoot a three
3 point or above or a six, make it to each
4 individual.
5
And I'm a dog hunter and I'll tell you
6 what. These people that comes up here on
7 these complaints, they should have a -- ain't
8 it a public record where they filed
9 complaints? Or so many people that, you
10 know, was convicted or something for
11 trespassing, talking, you know, about the
12 dogs or something. Could they do that and
13 bring y'all the proof? Instead of coming
14 down here and -- well, I ain't got no proof
15 in my pocket either.
16
But if you wanted -- like I say, if they
17 want to shoot a three point or above on one
18 side, let them shoot. Don't make me have to
19 do that. It's hard for me to pick one that
20 might have one on the other side.
21
And I wanted to go to about the turkey
22 hunting. Making the turkey hunter see a
23 half-inch spur. That would be pretty hard to
0077
1 do, wouldn't it? You can't do it. But I
2 guess I'm through. Thank you.
3
MR. COLES: Next is Joy Grubbs from
4 Piedmont.
5
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's passing.
6
MR. COLES: She's passing? Our
7 good friend Mr. Wynnton Melton, Geneva,
8 Alabama.
9
MR. MELTON: Thank you. Always
10 good to be here. I have followed this Board
11 around for about thirty-five years now and I
12 must say this is the first place I've ever
13 been in where speed's considered to be a good
14 thing. But it's always interesting and you
15 learn a lot. I am Geneva County of
16 representative Fleming Farm Hunter's Club
17 which is primarily a dog hunting club. We
18 also hunt (inaudible). Some black powder and
19 just all the methods but I have for these
20 many years being in support of hunting with
21 dogs regardless of the (inaudible) pursuing.
22 And I've seen a lot of the same things over
23 and over again.
0078
1
But, you know, all of the hullaboo that's
2 going on in England now. They did stop the
3 deer, the fox and the hare hunting in
4 England. And it's been just really really
5 hubaloo going on over there and arguing for
6 some time now, for several years. And, of
7 course, that's probably the oldest
8 traditional area for hunting with hounds that
9 we're familiar with.
10
However, it goes back to the Mesopotamian
11 era about seven thousand years ago and
12 (inaudible) Europeans brought their hounds
13 over and into this country. George
14 Washington, Thomas Jefferson. They were all
15 great hounders. It's a grand sport. It's
16 been there for many many years and I just
17 want to see us continue all of the good hound
18 hunting sports.
19
Now we are under a permit system in
20 Geneva County which we voluntarily went to
21 and it helped with the -- we sat down with
22 all sides of the issue. Those that were
23 opposed to the dog deer hunting, those that
0079
1 supported it and the middle mediator to try
2 to chisel out something that will work for
3 all of us and it's working fairly well.
4 (inaudible) a couple problems that are very
5 difficult to always have and that comes with
6 always having the dogs under control.
7
Intent needs to be laid somewhere some
8 way and the extent of the abuse needs to be
9 there some way because if you ever release a
10 hound, you're not sure what he's going to do.
11 No matter how well trained he is, no matter
12 how disciplined you are, the dog can get away
13 and if a dog just rumbles up to somebody's
14 (inaudible) and they're anti and they're on a
15 crusade, they get the dog, they call the game
16 warden. You've got to go retrieve the dog.
17 And issues can come up because people are
18 very sensitive about their hunting dogs as
19 they are about their land.

20
We talk about landowner. Everybody's a
21 landowner, well, representing all the various
22 sports (inaudible) as far as arguing back and
23 forth in Geneva County.
0080
1
We had a hearing before the Commissioner
2 where there was an effort made to put it on
3 the ballot. We did a poll. I just don't
4 think that's the way to handle this issue.
5 But just as soon as they had the room, the
6 dog hunters we could put three thousand acres
7 of land right there. So dog hunters own
8 land. Non-dog hunters own land. All kind of
9 people own land. So it's not a fair decision
10 to make to give (inaudible).
11
In closing, just two observations. One
12 is on quality deer management. I don't think
13 there's anybody that doesn't appreciate the
14 need for some type of deer management but I
15 can tell you this but I can't (inaudible) our
16 own views and observations in Geneva County.
17
Since the Oakman hunting, in other words,
18 the doe harvest year round, in our club,
19 we're (inaudible) what I consider to be
20 quality bucks. I consider that to be a full
21 time buck deer six points or better as a
22 quality deer.
23
Just trying to raise the deer just to
0081
1 raise the antlers as Don mentioned earlier
2 just where you can have something to put on
3 your wall to brag about both reduces the
4 value of the animal and reduces the value of
5 the sport down to nothing but money and egos
6 and pride. And these are the things the
7 animal rights people the anti (inaudible)
8 more than any other one thing.
9
In our particular case, where we have
10 harvested more does, we are harvesting more
11 quality bucks. Quality bucks being again six
12 points or better. So the open harvest seems
13 to work better than the selective harvest to
14 me. Just an observation of watching some

15 that have tried to put in the eight pointer
16 or better system.
17
They aren't killing any deer at all.
18 They have taken this thing so far that
19 they're afraid to shoot a deer, afraid
20 they'll offend their buddies, afraid they'll
21 offend anybody. Well, we're out there and
22 we're killing the heck out of them and we're
23 killing more better deer every year.
0082
1
So it seems to me that the open hunting
2 is working better in our days than the
3 selective harvesting.
4
One other thing that is neither here or
5 there. But isn't it great that we have
6 turkeys in Geneva County? We had no turkeys
7 ten years ago. Somebody said they saw a
8 turkey. Said: You're blind man. It's
9 another buck.
10
We had no turkeys. We have turkeys,
11 turkeys and more turkeys in Geneva County.
12 Great turkey hunting in Geneva County so if
13 y'all want to find a good place to go turkey
14 hunting, come on down to Geneva County and
15 we'll show you some turkeys that we thought
16 were foreign animals just a few years ago.
17
Again, thank you for all that you do. We
18 hope that you will continue to hear all views
19 and all ideas and use profound judgement.
20 And always remember that everybody is against
21 something. Everybody is for something. Find
22 that middle ground but the best middle ground
23 is that which takes away the rights of
0083
1 nobody. Thank you.
2
3 Derrel Murkerson.
4
MR. MURKERSON: First of all, I'd
5 like to thank you very much for your time.
6 My name is Derrel Murkerson. I'm from
7 Calera, Alabama.
8
There's a couple of issues that I'd like
9 to address. Number one, the reason that I

10 have this child with me, I provided you with
11 three pictures. In one of those pictures,
12 there's a cow horn spike that my
13 five-year-old killed the same weekend that
14 Don Knight's grandson killed his first deer.
15 If you're going to limit, what you're telling
16 me is these kids can not kill a deer
17 (inaudible). I can say this.
18
I have children ranging from twenty-two
19 to three. I have dog hunted all my life. I
20 have deer hunted all my life. My father is
21 eighty years old with Alzheimers. I take him
22 so that he can still enjoy what he has left
23 on this earth.
0084
1
The things that you're trying to impose
2 on people to do, the three point rule, we're
3 running into a problem. People talk about
4 statistics. I'm going to talk about reality.
5 I'm a retired police officer. I did accident
6 reconstruction. Is there anyone that has
7 ever seen a deer go through a car and kill an
8 incident child? That's an overwhelming
9 feeling.
10
If you're going to limit this, you're
11 going to produce some problems. Who's going
12 to carry the liability? Is the State of
13 Alabama because the deer herd's too large?
14 Are we going to go into a point where we're
15 like Oak Mountain where the deer are dying
16 out?
17
We killed more deer this year in our club
18 -- and I believe you also saw the picture of
19 the twenty-four point that's laying on my dog
20 box with her and I. That's one of the
21 biggest deer killed in this state.
22
We are doing everything we can to be
23 proper. And people that will not allow us to
0085
1 manage ourselves and dictate to us where
2 we're voting citizens ourselves are not
3 ethical. Okay.
4
Getting back to the point of my oldest
5 son. I can say this. I'm a proud father.
6 You know what? He's a deputy sheriff of
7 Jefferson County. I can say my son is not
8 in the criminal element. Why? Because I
9 have taken him as a youth and provided him
10 with direction. If you limit these things,
11 you're going to start having criminal
12 activity.
13
We all know every show we have in Alabama
14 that talks about deer hunting talks about
15 take a youth. Take a kid fishing. Take a
16 kid hunting. It's about society. We need to
17 make sure that we honor that.
18
The dog hunting. Everyone of us that
19 are dog hunters have a lot of pride. We
20 spend a lot of money on our animals. We care
21 a lot about our dogs. We care about other
22 people's opinion. But we also want to be
23 able to continue doing what we enjoy.
0086
1
Not everyone enjoys dog hunting. I bow
2 hunt. I black powder hunt. And I dog hunt.
3 So the ones who don't like dog hunting, allow
4 them to hunt at different times but don't
5 eliminate dogs and don't restrict us with a
6 minimal amount of points to kill a deer.
7
I can honestly say being a retired police
8 officer, I will not violate the law. But
9 when this child is standing next to me and
10 I'm holding the gun and she wants to pull the
11 trigger on a deer and it's not three on one
12 side, go ahead and cite me. Because I am not
13 going to deprive her of that. Okay.
14
The other thing that I will ask since
15 Barbour County said that they had a ninety
16 percent opinion poll that wanted the three
17 point rule, have they decided that they're
18 willing to accept the liability in that
19 county and pay the insurance or is the State
20 of Alabama going to absorb that?
21
Because we all know that if we continue
22 doing that, we're going to have
23 overpopulation. We're going to be just like

0087
1 what they're doing in Montgomery County.
2 We're going to paying our taxes to clear off
3 the edge of the roads so people can see deer.
4 There is way too many deer in this state and
5 by limiting these things, it is not going to
6 (audible).
7
And if they can show us where they're not
8 going to allow their three point rule to
9 affect our deer population where we hunt and
10 mess up our management system. As Don Knight
11 said, after dog season's over with, we have
12 our own leasing of ourselves. We have ethics
13 and morals which most people do. And as Mr.
14 Jones said earlier, we're getting to a point
15 where today's society is all about money.
16
And the one thing that I would like is -17 if she would say one thing. If I can get her
18 to talk -19
I'm sorry. She wanted to come up here
20 and explain to you that she has her own deer
21 dogs and that is what that child drives with.
22 Thank you. I'm not asking you to do anything
23 considerate for anyone special except for the
0088
1 children of this State. Thank you.
2
3 Lane Payne, Piedmont.
4
MR. PAYNE: (Inaudible.)
5
8 be heard. Adjustments were made to the
9 microphone system.)
10
11
MR. PAYNE: I'm Lane Payne from
12 Piedmont, Alabama. I wasn't prepared for
13 this but I'm a dog hunter. I've dog hunted
14 all my life. Back years ago, we'd go out
15 rabbit hunting (inaudible). But we can't do
16 that anymore. We dog hunters -- I had to
17 change clubs this year because we run out of
18 land. Didn't have enough to dog hunt on. We

19 lease thousands of acres just to have a place
20 to run our dogs. And we do everything we can
21 to keep them on that land. But a lot of
22 times, they're going to get off. And I know
23 there's some bad dog (inaudible) and you're
0089
1 going to have the renegades. And we're
2 getting a lot of flack that we're not doing
3 for, you know, hunting illegal.
4
If I have to go around here and try to
5 catch my dogs, my gun is unloaded behind the
6 seat. If I have to pull down the road a mile
7 or so, pull off on the side of the road and
8 all I'm doing is trying to catch them dogs
9 and get them back. We've lost four dogs in
10 our club in the last two years being shot.
11
And like I said, if there's any way we
12 can keep them on our land, we would. But
13 anybody that's ever deer hunted very much
14 knows that once them dogs run that one deer,
15 they may get off our land or go across
16 somebody's land. They're not bothering their
17 deer. We're running them, you know, on our
18 land, on theirs and maybe across it.
19
Like I said, I don't know what the
20 solution is. Maybe stiffer penalties for the
21 ones that are breaking the law. Like I said,
22 the club I'm in and everyone I have, we hunt
23 legal. We love to hear them dogs run. I
0090
1 mean that's a way of life. Thank you.
2
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Payne.
3 Next, Mr. Don Knight.
4
MR. KNIGHT: I'm Don Knight. I
5 live in Anniston. I'm president of the
6 Alabama Doghunters Association. I promise
7 not to get upset this time. There is one
8 thing though that I would like to add. You
9 pass this three point regulation in Barbour
10 County, two other type people that you're
11 going to attract to Barbour County that we
12 don't want as I hunt there and that's
13 poachers and night hunters.

14
Anytime you get a word out about all these
15 big deer and everything, they're coming. We
16 don't want them. Just asking you to consider
17 that.
18
Also, I'd like to ask you to consider.
19 You shut down a few counties at the last
20 meeting to dog hunting. I'd like for you to
21 reconsider that. Maybe a motion will be made
22 that we have consideration to reopen those.
23
I'd also like to bring forth a question
0091
1 that we could get a permit system in Lamar,
2 Franklin, Marion and Winston where they've
3 been shut down before. We need to get these
4 people back hunting. We lost a lot of
5 hunters in those counties and I'm talking
6 about that from a we don't want the unethical
7 hunters back hunting.
8
We support any rules and regulations on
9 raising fines. As far as taking trucks away
10 from people that break the laws, we want you
11 to totally make the fines whatever we have to
12 do to get these bad people out of the county.
13 Just get them out of here. We don't want
14 them. They're trying to take our way of
15 hunting that we enjoy away from us just like
16 they are anybody else. So we'll support
17 that.
18
I'd also like to say that I think that
19 belt move, we'd like to support that. You'll
20 find that the dog hunters, probably
21 seventy-five percent of them climb a tree
22 every now and then. I'd like for them to be
23 able to come down out of that tree. I've
0092
1 seen people that have fallen out of trees.
2 Our association would be glad to support any
3 rule or regulation about fastening that belt
4 up.
5
We'd like to -- Derrel made it pretty
6 clear about the kids hunting with dogs or
7 senior citizens. But I want to tell you
8 about a little episode I had just this last

9 Thursday. I had to bury one of my dogs after
10 about twelve years.
11
Now, see, I won't be able to hear that
12 dog run through the woods pushing game
13 anymore. I've got other dogs. I'll be able
14 to hear them but these dogs are special to
15 us. They're very special to us. That dog,
16 there's people in this room right here that
17 have killed game in front of that dog. She
18 was special.
19
We just think something needs to be done.
20 She happens to have been able to live a good
21 long life for a beagle. But we have dogs
22 being shot each and every year. We had two
23 shot out of our club this year and there's
0093
1 not a club in this state that tries any
2 harder than we do to keep our dogs off of
3 other people's property. But we had two to
4 get shot.
5
I'm going to ask this Board again to put
6 in your pamphlet -- put in that book laws -7 not regulations but laws about shooting dogs.
8 It is a Class C felony. And that needs to be
9 in that book. It's just necessary. Corky or
10 whoever, we will pay for one page in your
11 book of advertisement to be sure that law's
12 in there. It needs to be in that book where
13 people know that shooting a deer dog -- any
14 kind of dog is illegal.
15
Now I want you to understand something
16 about that law. We didn't push for that law.
17 As a matter of fact, we thought it gave the
18 animal activist group a little too much
19 power. We did not push for that law but it
20 is there. Okay.
21
Because we got -- occasionally, we have
22 people that have dogs get hurt or something
23 like that and we needed to shoot the dog. I
0094
1 had a dog that I ran up on last year, mangy
2 poor dog and it was a big gray -- one of
3 these German dogs. A hunting dog. It wasn't

4 a deer dog or a coon dog. But the poor thing
5 was in pain and agony. And I couldn't shoot
6 that dog to put it out of it's misery because
7 of this law.
8
So, you know, as far as supporting the
9 law, it's a little tough sometimes but it is
10 a law and it needs to be in that book where
11 ethical people don't make the mistake.
12
I've seen people shoot dogs just because
13 they hear people in the camp say: Well, I'll
14 shoot that dog if it comes across my
15 property. They don't know that law. If they
16 did, maybe some of them wouldn't shoot those
17 dogs. But we ask you to put that in that
18 book because that's what most of the hunters
19 look at.
20
But we ask you to consider the permit
21 system in all counties and to reconsider the
22 counties that you shut down on the last and
23 see if we can't give them a chance to correct
0095
1 these problems that they might have. I've
2 talked with people in most of those counties
3 and they'll be more than glad to kind of work
4 with you any way we can. So let's don't do
5 away with dog hunting. Let's get the
6 problems straightened out and enforce the
7 laws we've got on the books. Thank you.
8
MR. COLES: Last, we'll hear from
9 Eugene Wiggins from Dothan.
10
MR. WIGGINS: Board members,
11 conservation officers, I thank y'all for this
12 opportunity to come out and address you
13 today. I want to thank the conservation
14 officers for doing their job each and every
15 day. I know a lot of times, people say
16 they're out. Different places where they
17 don't do their jobs. Every one I know of and
18 every officer I see do their jobs as well as
19 an other law enforcement officer in the State
20 of Alabama.
21
I'm a hunter. I like to deer hunt with
22 dogs and without dogs. And the permit system

23 that several people talked about earlier
0096
1 today, it's a hindrance on both dog hunters
2 and non-dog hunters but it is working. It's
3 just a check and balance. And I think most
4 parties will agree that's it a check and
5 balance.
6
And I ask that before you take away any
7 more counties, that you look at the permit
8 system and you look at the permit systems for
9 the counties maybe that you've taken the
10 privileges away from in the past. Thank you.
11
MR. COLES: Thank you, Mr. Wiggins.
12 At this time, we'll take a ten minute break
13 and we'll return in ten minutes.
14
15 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)
16
17
DCNR DEPARTMENTAL REPORTS
18
19
MR. COLES: Was there anyone that
20 did not sign up that would still like to
21 speak to the Board and to the group?
22
All right. Hearing none, we will go
23 ahead with the department reports. Mr. Pugh?
0097
1
MR. PUGH: Stan Cook, our fisheries
2 chief will address the slot limit issue on
3 Lewis Smith Lake and I'll ask Mr. Moody to
4 deal with the Barbour County QDM issue.
5
I do have something I'd like to say on
6 the Barbour County issue but I'll wait till
7 Gary says his piece.
8
MR. COOK: Good morning.
9 Commissioner had asked me to give a briefing
10 to the advisory board on our proposed
11 modification to the slot length limit on
12 Lewis Smith Lake.
13
Briefly, just a little bit of the
14 history. In 1995, we imposed a thirteen to
15 sixteen inch slot limit on black bass in
16 Lewis Smith Lake. These species of bass
17 included in that group are spotted bass and

18 large mouth bass.
19
In a type of lake like Lewis Smith is, is
20 a nutrient poor lake. In those situations,
21 those class of lakes, usually you see poor
22 bass growth. It's a natural reaction to a
23 nutrient poor situation. And you also
0098
1 experience poor growth and a kind of a build
2 up of bass in the small categories like
3 thirteen to fourteen inch type category.
4
One of the responses to that from a
5 management standpoint is to impose a slot
6 limit and we did so. We told the public at
7 that time that it would probably take at
8 least five years before we started seeing
9 results from the slot limit. If it was
10 working and if it was, how effective it was.
11
After five years, we met with a group of
12 interested individuals in Cullman County and
13 showed the data we had and it more or less
14 reflected that for spotted bass, the slot
15 limits seemed to be working very well.
16 Spotted bass comprise roughly about two
17 thirds of the bass in Lewis Smith Lake. But
18 with the large mouth, it's not working as
19 well.
20
And we said we needed more time to
21 evaluate this to see if this was a trend that
22 would be improving or getting worse before we
23 made any kind of recommendation for
0099
1 modification. We went back and visited with
2 that group again and we showed the same
3 thing.
4
There was some slight improvement with
5 large mouth bass. We then decided that
6 following the sampling of 2004 that we would
7 hold a public meeting to discuss what changes
8 needed to be made.
9
That meeting occurred in March of 2005 in
10 Cullman County. We also advertised in Walker
11 County, got people to attend the meeting from
12 both of those areas. And we presented our

13 data which more or less reflected that if we
14 modified the slot limit to a thirteen to
15 fifteen inch slot limit, that we could still
16 reap the benefits of the slot limit by
17 protecting that group, that range between
18 thirteen and fifteen inches but yet still try
19 to achieve the goal of moving more fish to a
20 larger size.
21
And by doing so, it also will allow a
22 little bit larger take with the harvest or in
23 the case of a tournament angler, taking that
0100
1 fish back to the weight out. You could take
2 that fifteen inch fish back to the weigh out.
3
We showed the data at the meeting. We
4 did not indicate our position at the meeting
5 but this was indeed our selection but the
6 data spoke for itself. We did ask for input
7 from the public for about a month as well as
8 input that night.
9
An overwhelming majority of the anglers
10 that were there supported this change and we
11 have recommended that change to the
12 commissioner. We recommend that change be
13 effective June 1.
14
And I'll entertain some questions if
15 you've got any.
16
MR. COLES: Any questions from the
17 Board? Thank you. Mr. Moody.
18
MR. MOODY: Thank you, Mr. Coles.
19 Each of you have a report like this in your
20 package somewhere. If you need another copy
21 of it, we've got some copies down here that
22 we can hand you real quick if you'd like to
23 have another copy of that.
0101
1
But at the February meeting, you heard
2 from a group of people from Barbour County
3 that asked for a three point size limit be
4 placed on bucks harvested in Barbour County.
5
And it was brought back to the Board
6 meeting in March and at the March meeting,
7 there was discussion and a vote and it did

8 not pass the Board. And, at that time, Mr.
9 Lynch asked the division if we would go to
10 Barbour County and hold some meetings to try
11 to determine what public sentiment was. And
12 as a result of that request, we did do that.
13 And we have, here again, the results of that.
14
We held three meetings scattered across
15 the county in Clio, Clayton and Eufaula.
16 Each meeting was held at 6:00 o'clock in the
17 evening. I heard Mr. Hartzog say we might
18 could have chosen a better time but that was
19 the best time we knew (inaudible). At this
20 time of the year, it's hard to get people
21 enthused about talking about deer anyway.
22 They're onto other things and talking about
23 other things.
0102
1
But you see the attendance that we had.
2 The heaviest attendance anywhere was Eufaula.
3 There were fifty-six people. In Clayton,
4 twenty-four. In Clio, seventeen. And we got
5 eighty-eight questionnaires back.
6
At each meeting, I introduced the venue
7 and talked briefly about what we were there
8 for and what QDM was just a little bit and
9 our wildlife supervisor Bill Gray gave a
10 Powerpoint presentation and gave a very
11 objective discussion about the pros and cons
12 of implementing something in a mandatory way
13 rather than a voluntary way.
14
After that, we listened to questions -15 or we entertained questions and provided as
16 many answers as we could. And asked each
17 recipient or each participant that was there
18 to fill out a questionnaire and we got those
19 back.
20
Now one thing that's different about what
21 we presented to the public in Barbour County
22 and what you heard at the last meeting was
23 the overall proposal. And this was a change.
0103
1 A slight change was made with the input from
2 Board Member Coles and individuals in Barbour

3 County.
4
And the proposal that we presented is on
5 the second page of this and it basically
6 limits all buck harvesting in the county to
7 those that have three points on one side with
8 the exception of Youth Day which that
9 restriction would not apply.
10
So that's a little different than what
11 you heard at the February meeting or the
12 March meeting. And following that is just a
13 summarized report. These are the questions
14 that were on -- this is exactly the
15 questionnaire that each participant got and
16 the responses there are just summarized.
17 Total number of responses and how we got them
18 exactly. There's no editorial comments in
19 there at all so you can see exactly how the
20 participant in that meeting expressed
21 theirself to us. And then at the very end,
22 there's just a sheet that had some additional
23 comments on it that people chose to just
0104
1 provide us their input and we provided them
2 verbatim as we got them.
3
So that's basically what we did and
4 that's exactly the results from these
5 meetings. And if I can answer any questions
6 about that, I certainly would.
7
MR. COLES: Any questions?
8
MR. PORTER: Is this the proposal
9 of you and your department?
10
MR. MOODY: No. Our department
11 does not have a proposal. This is -- this is
12 the proposal that was presented to the
13 participants (inaudible) what changes the
14 proposal that was made at the last Board
15 meeting with input from several parties there
16 to modify it where it would be a little more
17 workable perhaps if it goes any further than
18 this.
19
MR. PORTER: Well, I notice that
20 the -- what you have here doesn't mention
21 anything at all about any gathering of any

22 statistical data or (inaudible) data or
23 anything during the hunting seasons. And
0105
1 that's my -- my question is: Can you have a
2 quality deer management program at all
3 without any provision for statistical data
4 from the standpoint of measuring (inaudible)
5 a very very intricate data keeping process?
6
MR. MOODY: No, you can not. And
7 it was very -- explained very well at all
8 three meetings to all participants that were
9 there that data processing or data input from
10 Barbour County, we would have to have a data
11 collection method.
12
And the question that we got most often
13 at the meeting was: Well, what does that
14 mean and how are you going to collect the
15 data? And right now, I do not know the
16 answer to that question. We've got to work
17 out a lot of details on that. But without
18 data, we will not be able to evaluate and we
19 will not be able to have any fair judgement.
20 So if anything is done, data collection would
21 need to be part of it.
22
MR. PORTER: And would that require
23 adding to man-hours and monies from the
0106
1 budget to actively do that from a department
2 standpoint?
3
MR. MOODY: Well, that will take
4 some time but how much, I can't tell you at
5 this point. It just depends on how we can
6 structure it in a method so that we can get
7 back the best data.
8
MR. PORTER: I'm looking at a
9 handout dated May 17th, 2005 from the Quality
10 Deer Management Association. And as I read
11 that, they don't have a position on this. In
12 other words, they don't support it -- come
13 out in support of this program; is that
14 right?
15
MR. MOODY: I have read that letter
16 once and that's my understanding of it as

17 well.
18
MR. PORTER: And I believe some of
19 the problems that they point out, one of the
20 major ones is the fact that you have no
21 provision for statistical data which is an
22 important aspect of a QDM program; is it not?
23
MR. MOODY: Well, I think they
0107
1 point out in there -- and you're looking at
2 it and I'm not but, you know, they make it
3 very evident that you have to have data
4 collection and data collection is part of it.
5
And it certainly is and the participants
6 that we talked to were well aware of that.
7 And before they could express their opinion,
8 you will see on one of the questions that was
9 responded to that had to do with data
10 collection, would you be willing to
11 participate if data collection was a
12 requirement. And the response dropped off a
13 little bit there but not entirely.
14
MR. PORTER: And as I understand
15 it, I'm just speaking about the folks that
16 showed up and participated and it was about
17 three tenths of one percent of the people in
18 the county; is that right?
19
MR. MOODY: Well, it was, you know,
20 ninety-seven people out of the county
21 population of, you know, roughly twenty-nine
22 thousand. So, yes, sir.
23
MR. PORTER: And as to licensed
0108
1 hunters, that would still be very
2 insignificant and a very small percentage,
3 right?
4
MR. MOODY: Well, yeah. I mean I
5 think it's obvious that that -- the group
6 that we had talked to was a committed group.
7 They were -- they was very -- very much in
8 favor of doing this. I think it's obvious
9 from the responses there.
10
MR. PORTER: And because the Deer
11 Management Association -- just from reading

12 in the report indicates that for QDM to work
13 that they recommend -- and I think any QDM
14 program you look at recommends that it be
15 voluntary.
16
MR. MOODY: That's their position.
17 Yes, sir.
18
MR. PORTER: Are you familiar with
19 -- and I know it's a meeting but I've been
20 doing some reading and had a lot of talks
21 with my friend (inaudible) about this. But
22 there is a book that I've read called Quality
23 White-tails, The Why and How of Quality Deer
0109
1 Management by Karl Miller and Larry
2 Marchinton.
3
And as I understand it, that's considered
4 to be a reliable source and an authoritative
5 source on the subject. Would you agree with
6 that?
7
MR. MOODY: They're both
8 well-respected deer biologists.
9
MR. PORTER: And in there, it
10 stressed among other things that the -- the
11 fact that QDM -- and it says that quality
12 deer management is a voluntary use of
13 restraint in harvesting young bucks. They
14 stress volunteerism all through this as a
15 integral part of the program which is not a
16 situation which reflects what we propose on
17 Barbour County as mandatory.
18
MR. MOODY: That's correct.
19
MR. PORTER: And the other thing
20 that they stress in there is the fact that -21 of your statistical data and it's really -22 if you're going to have a program like that,
23 you need to have your data and to collect it.
0110
1
But (inaudible) I'm curious. Your plan
2 on this is for the counties to impose and use
3 it somewhat based on statistical data
4 gathered from the wildlife management area
5 and that program was set up geared to the
6 property use and the property types and so

7 forth; is that right?
8
MR. MOODY: Yeah.
9
MR. PORTER: Okay. Would you agree
10 with me that there are different property
11 uses and different property types (inaudible)
12 Barbour County (inaudible) the type of county
13 and all the wildlife management areas?
14
MR. MOODY: Well, certainly, yeah.
15 There's different -- different habitats in
16 Barbour County as with any county in our
17 state, of course.
18
MR. PORTER: And this is a pretty
19 severe restriction on people's right to
20 harvest bucks. It's a little bit unusual for
21 our state. And I believe there's ample
22 statistics out there to indicate anytime you
23 create restrictions on hunting, you're going
0111
1 to lose hunters. Would you agree with that?
2
MR. MOODY: Yeah. There's been
3 Government studies that indicated that by
4 Larry Principle (phonetically spelled) who's
5 a (inaudible). Just the county in general
6 indicated that the more complicated the rules
7 become, not just this issue but any issue
8 related to hunting then you tend to start
9 losing participants.
10
MR. PORTER: Well, I can say with
11 some degree of authority on my own part about
12 gun issues and gun management. There's one
13 way to go about it. Losing gun owners is a
14 (inaudible) restrictions and that's a
15 well-known -- well-used bromine in the gun
16 area.
17
And I was listening to my friend Grady
18 asking about the objectives. And what I
19 heard was the objective is to lower the doe
20 and buck ratio in a camp. Everything that
21 I've read indicates that the program you have
22 of your doe harvest is the quickest and best
23 way to do that. Am I mistaken about that?
0112
1
MR. MOODY: I think I'm following
2 you on that. Certainly, this restriction
3 does not directly affect the doe harvest in
4 any way. And that's one of the things that
5 we discussed at a couple of the meetings when
6 the question came up. Doing this will -7 does not have any direct implication on the
8 doe harvest. It's still got to be a
9 commitment on the part of the landowners to
10 properly harvest their deer herds which
11 includes harvesting does. And if they're not
12 going to do that, this one thing will not
13 make any changes on anybody's land.
14
So whether you're a club or whether it's
15 mandatory, voluntary, whatever, you've got to
16 be committed to doing more than just doing
17 this. Doing this by itself will not make
18 (inaudible).
19
MR. PORTER: And at the present
20 time, there's no restrictions on how you
21 manage the deer herd. You've got a whole
22 universe of different management techniques.
23 And this would be a restriction. Is there
0113
1 anything biologically related to the resource
2 in Barbour County that would support a
3 restriction of how you manage your deer herd
4 down there?
5
MR. MOODY: We don't have the data
6 to totally answer that question. Probably
7 there's a lot of people already managing with
8 some kind of harvest restriction in Barbour
9 County. And a lot of people came to these
10 meetings. I talked to most of them
11 individually at least to some extent. Didn't
12 have a chance to talk to all them but there's
13 a whole variety of things going on in Barbour
14 County right now as all across the state.
15
I wish we had enough data that I could
16 answer that question just exactly. We don't
17 think that there is any critical need in any
18 part of our state to take any forcible action
19 or else we would be leading the charge to
20 recommend that.
21
We do believe that what we've done in the
22 management areas have showed positive results
23 and we're pleased with that. Trying to
0114
1 extrapolate that data to other areas
2 especially those areas that have already been
3 managed QDM is not directly applicable
4 because they've already made some changes and
5 seen some changes and they're not going to
6 see the dramatic changes that we saw in areas
7 like the management areas that (inaudible).
8
But we don't have the data set to say -9 to answer your question technically either
10 way. We don't see a (inaudible).
11
MR. LYNCH: Gary, one of the things
12 that came up earlier in this meeting was an
13 issue about people that aren't from Barbour
14 County that lease land. And looking at your
15 report, the way I understand it, about a
16 third of the people that filled it out own
17 their land and then a third lease or lease
18 and own some land. So about two thirds of
19 the people don't own all the land they're
20 running on.
21
MR. MOODY: Yeah. And that
22 question was -- the question that you just
23 addressed was discussed after the Eufaula
0115
1 meeting I believe it was (inaudible). And,
2 you know, we see how we advertised it
3 (inaudible) only one TV show in Dothan and
4 most of the rest of the public within the
5 county and I don't know any better way to do
6 it on an issue like this.
7
MR. LYNCH: And when they went to
8 the antler restrictions on the management
9 area in Barbour County, did the harvesting of
10 does increase there after that or do we have
11 those statistics?
12
MR. MOODY: Yeah. We've got those
13 and, Bill, correct me if I'm wrong but from
14 memory, wasn't it six percent? Is that
15 right?
16
BILL: Six percent over a five year
17 period.
18
MR. MOODY: Over a five year
19 period, got a six percent increase. So it
20 was not a dramatic increase. But at the same
21 time, to help make that happen or help
22 provide that opportunity, we've been much
23 more
0116
1 liberal in our seasons on does on wildlife
2 management areas than we were prior to. So
3 we took some positive steps.
4
And that won't happen in the county so
5 that's what we (inaudible) to say just doing
6 this will automatically increase the doe
7 harvest because we've been very liberal in
8 the county already on doe harvesting. And
9 that choice is all there with that. So if
10 that's the reason, we've got to be a little
11 careful about using one data collection
12 method to recommend a comparison.
13
MR. LYNCH: And in a situation like
14 this where if you could set up a system where
15 you could monitor how it's working in the
16 county, is it beneficial to the department to
17 have a county that could serve as a trial
18 county and a management practice system such
19 as this where you could study over a two,
20 three, four, five year period such as this is
21 suggested and then adapt from that in your
22 statewide management practices?
23
MR. MOODY: Yes. But if we were
0117
1 going to do anything, obviously, in my
2 opinion, it would be better generally to
3 start with small and work our way larger.
4 Philosophically, (inaudible) whether you do
5 something voluntarily or mandatory. That's
6 what (inaudible).
7
MR. PORTER: Thank you.
8
MR. STRICKLAND: Gary, let me just
9 clarify a couple of points. What is the
10 stance of your department on the

11 restrictions? Do you support them?
12
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speak up just a
13 little bit.
14
MR. STRICKLAND: What is the stance
15 of your department on this restriction? Does
16 your department support the three point
17 restriction in Barbour County?
18
MR. MOODY: At the meetings in
19 Barbour County, we took a neutral position.
20 We did not express a -- and this is
21 background. I will answer your question.
22 But we did not try to bias it in either way.
23 We tried to play it right down the middle and
0118
1 provide factual information to the
2 participants there and get their feedback.
3
I can tell you what my personal opinion
4 is. Be glad to do that if you ask for my
5 personal opinion (inaudible).
6
MR. STRICKLAND: Can we get your
7 personal opinion?
8
MR. MOODY: Yeah. And this is no
9 secret to my friends in Barbour County. I
10 tend to choose -- and this is strictly
11 personal now so take it that way. But I tend
12 to choose voluntary restraint and less
13 Government intrusion when it's possible to do
14 it that way.
15
I believe in the long run -- and this may
16 be my naive self talking but I believe in the
17 long run, we are -- and we're already seeing
18 a change in personal ethics among hunters in
19 the state. We're seeing a lot of voluntary
20 choices being made because of educational
21 messages getting out there either through
22 some publicity we've done, QDM groups or just
23 all kinds of information that's out there.
0119
1
And when someone in this field has a
2 personal ethic, then it will be passed from
3 generation to generation more so than if it's
4 a rule that you have to follow.
5
So given the fact that I think we can get
6 there doing that although it may be a little
7 bit slower, that would be my preference.
8
MR. STRICKLAND: One other
9 question. Let's say this rule becomes in
10 effect. It's for five years (inaudible).
11
MR. MOODY: Well, whatever the
12 polls have made. That's my understanding.
13 We're talking about a five year harvest
14 restriction.
15
MR. STRICKLAND: Would we have the
16 ability to say in two or three years, we
17 decide we want to make some modifications,
18 maybe increase the doe harvest or is this
19 pretty much the law for five years?
20
MR. MOODY: It will be in place for
21 five years because it's a provision that we
22 discussed in all the meetings and what I
23 would hope would come out of anything that
0120
1 may come out of here would be the opportunity
2 for tweaking it as necessary as we go along
3 and as we look at data and as we observe.
4 The experiment will be for five years but
5 with the opportunity to make some changes as
6 we would go along.
7
MR. STRICKLAND: So you mean this
8 would be a good start (inaudible)?
9
MR. MOODY: I just gave you my
10 personal opinion on that.
11
MR. STRICKLAND: Thank you.
12
MR. COLES: Corky, are you going to
13 give the department's position on that
14 subject?
15
MR. PUGH: Well, it's not my
16 perogative to state the department's
17 position. Only the Commissioner can do that.
18 But I can give you my personal professional
19 opinion.
20
I don't envy the Board. This is a tough
21 decision point that you find yourselves at.
22 You've got a group of dedicated
23 conservationists from Barbour County who
0121
1 sincerely believe that this is the right
2 thing to do.
3
But the crux of the matter is whether or
4 not their opinion represents the opinion of
5 the majority of the hunters in that county.
6 Or really all the hunters in that county.
7 Because right now, people have a choice. The
8 decision that is made by this Board once
9 adopted and promulgated by the Commissioner
10 is regulation and enforceable as the law.
11 That means that people who don't abide by
12 that would become law violators and get
13 arrested.
14
Like Gary, philosophically, I tend to
15 believe that the more choice people have, the
16 less Government intervention that's being
17 imposed on people, the better off we are.
18 We've accomplished a tremendous amount of
19 progress in this state though education.
20
If you look at the material on QDM, again
21 and again what you see is voluntary restraint
22 on buck harvest. What you see again and
23 again is educate, don't regulate. So I don't
0122
1 envy you in the decision point that you are
2 in because you have some very dedicated
3 people who are great conservationists who
4 want to do this.
5
But when you look at guiding philosophies
6 behind the whole conservation movement in
7 this state, and it really had its basis at
8 the national level, back in the early early
9 days, you do what's in the best interest of
10 the resource first and then you do what's in
11 the greatest good for the most people in the
12 long run.
13
And the really important part of that is
14 "the most people." If we begin regulating in
15 a way that favors the most avid, the most
16 committed hunters, the most knowledgeable
17 hunters, the most experienced hunters, then
18 we're regulating in a way that takes away
19 some of that choice that all hunters have.

20
21
DISTRICT REPORTS
22
23
MR. COLES: All right. At this
0123
1 time, we'll have our district reports -2 our district reports from the district
3 directors. In District One, Mr. Self, Mr.
4 Hatley.
5
MR. SELF: Thank you, Louis. My
6 report today consists mainly of marine
7 resources. As some of you may recall, last
8 year the department made a decision to try
9 some experimental seeding of oyster pits. In
10 the marine resources division opened
11 (inaudible) April 25th and these beaches
12 rained over for three weeks and were closed
13 from (inaudible) to May the 13th, 2005.
14
When biological surveys and (inaudible)
15 oyster resources were best being served by
16 the closings.
17
Recently, the plan was to have the reefs
18 open for dredging for two weeks but because
19 of the success -- the great success of the
20 quantity involved in the oysters being
21 dredged off the reefs, it was decided to hold
22 the reefs open for another week. And they
23 closed on May the 13th.
0124
1
One particular concern was that the
2 oyster (inaudible) would have a lot of
3 difficulty accepting this dredging operation.
4 As it turned out, there was not any conflicts
5 at all.
6
Number of dredging permits issued was
7 seven. Five were utilized. Average dredging
8 (inaudible). There were seven hundred and
9 forty sacks dredged at a value of about
10 fifteen thousand dollars.
11
Another issue that was quite
12 controversial was (inaudible) which when two
13 years ago, we decided to reopen (inaudible)
14 for recreational fishing. And it's turned

15 out that the marine resource section has
16 closely monitored this activity and there
17 have been no documented problems or
18 complaints. It's just run so very smoothly
19 that it's just become a non-existent problem
20 anymore.
21
Alabama artificial reef program which has
22 primarily been for offshore fisherman has now
23 come to a point where there's a lot of
0125
1 pressure on it for inshore reefs. And we
2 recently acquired permits to start building
3 more inshore reefs in Mobile Bay and Bon
4 Secour Bay.
5
The pool deck and the seawall for the
6 Gulf State Park swimming pool was the first
7 decking area and pier being hauled and staged
8 currently for the park.
9
The first will be deployed on a four acre
10 (inaudible) St. John inshore reef area
11 probably by July the 1st. The time that
12 (inaudible) is the Orange Beach Fishing
13 Association (inaudible) is being prepared.
14
Two hundred and twenty-two miles
15 (inaudible) 2004. Several of the orange
16 snapper have been in the Orange Beach World
17 Championship Red Snapper Tournament have come
18 of these modulars which is very very
19 encouraging.
20
U. S. Army Corp of Engineers has deployed
21 (inaudible) from Perdido Pass to the south
22 (inaudible). Last year, twelve hundred and
23 sixty-nine individual reefs were deployed
0126
1 that our private fisherman with our offshore
2 (inaudible) programs.
3
Brown shrimp is the next issue and many
4 of you may or may not be aware that the brown
5 shrimp don't do very well in fresh water.
6 And we've had a terrible spring as far as
7 flooding is concerned in Mobile. Which, of
8 course (inaudible). All the waters in
9 Alabama were closed to shrimping on Tuesday,

10 May the 10th, 2005. It's too soon to tell
11 the full effect of this year's flooding
12 because of water (inaudible). But it's
13 impossible until some more samples are taken
14 over the next week. And that concludes my
15 report.
16
MR. LAWLEY: Ross, I'd just like to
17 say one thing. If y'all remember last
18 spring, this Board took a position that there
19 were a lot of objections to. It wasn't a
20 voluntary-mandatory situation but took the
21 position to create about five what we call
22 (inaudible) which were the estuaries where
23 fresh water runs into Mobile Bay. This is a
0127
1 breeding ground for the shrimp and
2 (inaudible).
3
Had a lot of shrimpers concerned about it
4 because that area is where they would
5 (inaudible) call popcorn shrimp or baked
6 shrimp and (inaudible) two or three week
7 period because to allow this shrimp to grow
8 out to get bigger so that if they went
9 through the Bay into the Gulf, there would be
10 larger amount of shrimp and the shrimp they
11 caught would be larger shrimp.
12
And I've got a bunch of e-mails before we
13 did it asking us not to do it. And about
14 five weeks after we closed it and then it was
15 reopened to shrimpers who were working in the
16 Bay and in the Gulf, I got e-mails from those
17 same people saying that they were wrong.
18 This is the greatest thing that ever
19 happened. And really improved the shrimping
20 in Mobile. So sometimes we have to do tests
21 and have to do things to see if they'll work
22 and everybody seems to be on board with it
23 now.
0128
1
MR. COLES: Mr. Hatley.
2
MR. HATLEY: While the Commissioner
3 was doing the talking, he's spending more
4 time in our district than Ross and I are and

5 we both live down there.
6
For you people who would like to
7 (inaudible) the golf course is playable. The
8 Commissioner and the Governor are working
9 very diligently right now to try to get the
10 entire state park rebuilt. The convention
11 center -- and I'd like to later on before we
12 adjourn this meeting to give us an update on
13 that area.
14
Also, in our district, we -- Mr. Self and
15 the Commissioner and I have been working with
16 some of our constituents up in the north part
17 of the district in Washington County since
18 our -- and Choctaw County since our last
19 board meeting and, Mr. Chairman, at the
20 appropriate time, I have a motion that I
21 would like to make to the effect of dog
22 hunting in that area but we'll wait till
23 whatever time you feel would be appropriate.
0129
1
MR. COLES: Thank you.
2 Commissioner, if you would, update us on Gulf
3 Shores.
4
MR. LAWLEY: I'm going to make this
5 real brief because it's in the press a lot.
6 But the program that we're trying to do right
7 now is take the footprint of the land and
8 lease it to Auburn University. Auburn has a
9 hotel and restaurant management school there
10 at the Auburn Conference Center that run
11 through that school.
12
They would in turn have a developer come
13 and build a three hundred and fifty room
14 hotel that Auburn through their school would
15 manage.
16
Auburn also brings a lot of disciplined
17 students to the park as in forestry,
18 wildlife, biology, clean water, agriculture,
19 architecture. The list goes on and on
20 because it's the type school that Auburn is.
21 It can be a great help to (inaudible)
22 cooperative programs in the park and we can
23 restore the park back to what it was to be

0130
1 and we're trying to develop Gulf Shores as a
2 total resort eco-tourism or maybe as a
3 tourism destination.
4
And by accomplishing that since we have
5 in that park along with an exhibit hall which
6 the State would build and a hotel that would
7 be built there to serve as a headquarters for
8 the exhibition hall will be able to
9 accommodate conventions up to two thousand
10 which is a lot more people than we have rooms
11 for, obviously. So the overflow would go to
12 Orange Beach and to Gulf Shores to help the
13 economy.
14
We feel this will add sixty-five million
15 dollars a year to that area and over sixteen
16 hundred jobs will be created.
17
Right now, as Mark (inaudible) can tell
18 you, since 1999, we have lost between five
19 hundred and eight hundred and fifty thousand
20 dollars a year in that convention center and
21 in that lodge. If we can do this program,
22 our land rent would be around a million and a
23 half per year. And this money is very
0131
1 important to us because we only have about
2 four parks that actually make money and they
3 subsidize the rest of the parks throughout
4 the state that we all enjoy.
5
Some of them, it's not feasible for them
6 to make money. It provides a great community
7 service and we want to keep those parks open.
8 So that's why the whole park system rides on
9 what happens in Gulf Shores and we're trying
10 to put this program together.
11
So basically what we're trying to do is
12 -- we're not selling any land. We're
13 actually creating more beach because the new
14 complex will take up less land than the old
15 complex and there will be more public areas
16 for people.
17
Our park would be just better developed
18 through resources that we don't have in Mark

19 (inaudible) division and could not get by -20 by utilizing Auburn University. We will be
21 receiving a million and a half instead of
22 losing eight hundred thousand. No tax
23 dollars, no bond money being spent on it and
0132
1 right now we're (inaudible). That's where we
2 are.
3
MR. COLES: Thank you,
4 Commissioner. For District Two, that's my
5 district.
6
Since our last meeting, I have met with
7 three dog deer hunting clubs. I have
8 attended three landowner meetings. One of
9 those was in Dale County with the
10 Commissioner and Chief Henderson and Timmons.
11 The other one was in Dale County joint with
12 landowners and dog hunters meeting in
13 (inaudible) in Bibb County. The last meeting
14 was in Coffee County. Some landowners and
15 (inaudible) Spicer in attendance at those
16 meetings.
17
I also attended the three meetings held
18 in Barbour county about the possibility of
19 the QDM program for that county. And with
20 that, I'll call on District Three. Mr. Grant
21 Lynch.
22
MR. LYNCH: Thank you, Louis. I
23 don't have any district specific items to
0133
1 report. I would like to thank the department
2 for acting on my suggestion at the March
3 meeting we enjoyed down in Barbour County.
4 And doing it in a neutral manner regardless
5 of your feelings on the issue. I'd like to
6 commend you on that. And I'd also like to
7 say that I think the new three meetings a
8 year, Mr. Commissioner, seems to be working.
9 I think it has given an opportunity for
10 people across the state to have input and
11 moving the meeting around, also, seems like a
12 real positive step.
13
MR. COLES: Mr. Harbin.
14
MR. HARBIN: Yes, sir.
15
MR. COLES: Due to the fact that in
16 District Four, we haven't had any discussions
17 or any meetings held to try to reach an
18 agreement between the two different parties,
19 I see no reason to make any changes in
20 District Four.
21
MR. COLES: District Six. Mr.
22 Porter.
23
MR. PORTER: Thank you, Mr.
0134
1 Chairman. Of course, my district includes
2 the major (inaudible) area in the state. The
3 overwhelming issue up there is the Oak
4 Mountain State Park and it's condition and
5 also the deer herd. And I think Commissioner
6 Lawley has done excellent (inaudible) to say
7 the least in getting all those diverse
8 interests somewhat pulling in one direction
9 and I think we're seeing a lot of progress.
10
And I want to thank the Commissioner for
11 all the work that he's done to pull in all of
12 these very diverse interests to try to get
13 them going in one direction which is what is
14 the best interest of that resource there.
15
And that's the main issue that comes to
16 my attention on a daily basis. So that's all
17 of my report.
18
MR. COLES: Mr. Johnson.
19
MR. JOHNSON: Thank you, Mr. Coles.
20 District Seven has been mighty quiet seems
21 like this time but a few things that I've
22 been involved with is listening to a number
23 of landowners out there and getting their
0135
1 feel of our programs that we have going on at
2 the present time. Also, I visited with a
3 number of hunting clubs, a number of
4 conservation officers and also assisted in
5 planting some food plots and so forth.
6
As I said, it's been very quiet and we
7 appreciate all the work that's being done.
8 Thank you.
9
MR. COLES: Dr. May represents
10 District Seven.
11
DR. MAY: There wasn't really a lot
12 going on in District Seven as far as
13 complaints (inaudible) recommendations during
14 this period.
15
I did meet with Jeff Mason who is the
16 biologist with District Three. And I think
17 he comes out of District Three. That's where
18 his headquarters are.
19
In our discussion, he's involved in a
20 project that's a national banding process of
21 doves. And if I can just help some
22 (inaudible) and that is survival rate and
23 hatching rate and (inaudible) rate. But the
0136
1 hunters, we, as hunters, are critical in this
2 project because if he doesn't get the returns
3 on these bandings, he's not going to have
4 much to prove. As a hunter, you need to if
5 you kill doves with a band on them, you need
6 to return them or notify him. You can reach
7 him at the District Three office.
8
There's twenty-seven states involved in
9 this. I think it's twenty-nine now. So
10 there's two more joined in. Seventeen are in
11 the eastern management area which Alabama is
12 in and Tennessee and Georgia.
13
But I think he said that they banded like
14 three thousand birds in the last two years.
15 But they're only getting about fifty percent
16 reporting rate and that's why I stress as a
17 hunter, contact Mr. Mason so he'll know what
18 -- find out what's a viable rate and hatching
19 rates. So if you want to contact him, he's
20 at the District Three office.
21
MR. COLES: Thank you, Dr. May.
22 Dr. Smith, do you want to make some comments?
23
DR. SMITH: Yes. I have a brief
0137
1 comment I'd like to make. It's to pick up on
2 some comments Commissioner Lawley has made
3 about Gulf State Park. And speaking on

4 behalf of Auburn University, we appreciate
5 what you the leadership, Mr. Lawley and the
6 staff of the (inaudible). This is new ground
7 for Auburn and there's some obstacles that we
8 knew and some we didn't know. And I must say
9 quite honestly, (inaudible) entire Board.
10 Thank you for what you're doing because we at
11 Auburn University (inaudible) continue to be
12 excited and pleased to be a part of the
13 partnership and look forward to working
14 together.
15
MR. COLES: Thank you Dr. Smith.
16 Mr. Hatley, I believe you've got a motion?
17
MR. HATLEY: Yeah. Mr. Chairman,
18 if you'll bear with me for just a second. I
19 think everyone has a copy of it in front of
20 them. This motion pertains to Washington and
21 Choctaw Counties and comes as a result of
22 some thorough investigation and meetings that
23 the Commissioner and Mr. Self had.
0138
1
In the meeting with dog hunters as well
2 as landowners, I would like to make the
3 following motion:
4
That the deer season for Washington and
5 Choctaw County for the 2005-2006 season be
6 as they were recommended by the Department
7 without the additional restrictions approved
8 at the March Advisory Board Meeting.
9
MR. COLES: Is there a second to
10 that motion?
11
MR. JOHNSON: Seconded.
12
MR. COLES: Seconded by Mr.
13 Johnson. Any discussion? All right. The
14 motion is that the deer seasons for
15 Washington and Choctaw Counties for the
16 2005-2006 seasons be as they were recommended
17 by the Department without the additional
18 restrictions approved at the March Advisory
19 Board Meeting.
20
All those that would be in favor signify
21 by lifting hands. All opposed. Motion
22 carries.
23
MR. HATLEY: Thank you.
0139
1
MR. COLES: Mr. Hatley, would you
2 take the Chair? I have some motions, please.
3
MR. HATLEY: Sure. Chair
4 recognizes Mr. Coles.
5
MR. COLES: Thank you. I come to
6 you today, Ladies and Gentlemen, with egg on
7 my face. I, too, have made a mistake in that
8 the information that I received was
9 misunderstood on my part and I am here to
10 correct an injustice upon some doe deer
11 hunters that have not been part of the
12 problem, have not had any tickets, have not
13 had any complaints upon them.
14
And this motion that I'm making is to
15 correct a closure in Coffee County that was
16 made at Joe Wheeler State Park at the March
17 meeting.
18
The motion is: That the area of Coffee
19 County that lies within these boundaries from
20 the Covington County line, east on State
21 Highway 134 to its intersection with State
22 Highway 87, north on Highway 87 to its
23 intersection with US Highway 84, west on US
0140
1 84, to its intersection with State Highway
2 189 South, south on State Highway 189 to its
3 intersection with State Highway 141, north on
4 State Highway 141 to its intersection with US
5 Highway 84 and west on US Highway 84 to the
6 Covington County line be restricted to Stalk
7 hunting only for the purposes of deer
8 hunting.
9
This closure is in lieu of the previous
10 Coffee County closure motion that was
11 approved at the March 2005 Advisory Board
12 Meeting and does not affect any other
13 previous closures.
14
MR. HATLEY: We have a motion. Do
15 we have a second?
16
MR. JOHNSON: (Raises hand.)
17
MR. HATLEY: Mr. Johnson seconds
18 the motion. Is there any discussion?
19
DR. SMITH: I have a question.
20 Louis, what this is doing is actually
21 redefining the area that's affected by it,
22 right?
23
MR. COLES: That is correct. The
0141
1 information that I misunderstood came from
2 (inaudible) one club in this area and it
3 turns out there are four clubs in this area
4 and the other clubs have not been giving any
5 problems.
6
MR. HATLEY: Any further
7 discussion? Without having Mr. Coles to -8
MR. COLES: You should have a copy
9 of it there. They'll need you to read it
10 back.
11
MR. HATLEY: I didn't have a copy
12 of that motion.
13
MR. COLES: Excuse me.
14
MR. HATLEY: I think everyone
15 understood the motion.
16
MR. COLES: And I hope I didn't get
17 anybody dizzy by all those turns.
18
MR. HATLEY: I don't see the need
19 of repeating all of this. Therefore, the
20 Chair calls for the question on the motion.
21 With no further discussion, all in favor
22 signify by raising your hand. All opposed.
23 Motion carries.
0142
1
MR. COLES: The other motion I have
2 pertains to the Barbour County proposal that
3 was before us. In attending these meetings,
4 I talked to -- those that attended were
5 overwhelmingly in favor of it. And I think
6 some of the questions that were asked will be
7 answered in this motion.
8
So the motion is: Except on the
9 statewide special youth deer hunting date,
10 the harvest of white-tailed deer bucks in
11 Barbour County will be limited to those with
12 have a minimum of three points on one side.

13
The Wildlife Section of the Alabama
14 Department of Conservation and Natural
15 Resources will have the authority to collect
16 harvest data and report back to this Board.
17 This proposal is for a five-year period.
18
MR. HATLEY: We have a motion. Is
19 there a second to this motion?
20
MR. JOHNSON: (Raises hand.)
21
MR. HATLEY: Mr. Johnson seconds
22 the motion. Any discussion?
23
MR. PORTER: Yes.
0143
1
MR. HATLEY: Chair recognizes Mr.
2 Porter.
3
MR. COLES: It's my motion. Can I
4 speak to it first?
5
MR. HATLEY: Yeah.
6
MR. COLES: All right. Thank you.
7 Several things that I'd like to point out.
8 The Quality Deer Management Association
9 letter that was put here on our desks, it has
10 three points down at the bottom of it here.
11 The restrictions selected should be
12 biologically sound. This means that it
13 protects a high percentage of yearly bucks
14 while not protecting a significant percentage
15 of bucks two and a half years or older. That
16 provision will be met by this.
17
Restrictions should be supported by a
18 majority of the affected hunters and
19 landowners. Many states have adopted the two
20 thirds level of support for this
21 determination. Which I believe is optimistic
22 if it received over ninety percent approval.
23
A comprehensive monitoring program is
0144
1 implemented in the affected areas. Without
2 such a program, there's no way to objectively
3 determine the effectiveness of the strategy.
4 It will give the (inaudible) to the
5 Department the authority to collect this
6 data.
7
It's interesting to note that no one here
8 today from Barbour County spoke against this
9 proposal. A lot of the questions were raised
10 about never being told or whatnot. Chairman,
11 Ladies and Gentlemen, I've hunted in
12 Arkansas, Texas, Mississippi, Kentucky,
13 Georgia, Colorado, up in Missouri, in
14 Illinois and I have never never been told
15 about the hunting regulations in those states
16 if I don't come down there hunting in those
17 states.
18
The low attendance at the meetings, yes,
19 I was disappointed in the attendance. But,
20 Mr. Porter, you mentioned this a couple of
21 times. I dare say that my preacher was
22 disappointed at the attendance last Sunday at
23 his 11:00 o'clock service.
0145
1
The data collection will be left up to
2 the Wildlife Services. This only affects
3 Barbour County. It does not affect any other
4 county in the State. I don't have any idea
5 what the (inaudible) are in Cullman County or
6 Cleburne County or Choctaw County or any
7 other county except those counties in my
8 district that I try to attune to their needs.
9 And so I will leave that decision up to the
10 other members of this board representing
11 other counties in this state.
12
It was also pointed out in these meetings
13 that if you shoot anything with less than
14 three points that you would be a law
15 violator. Everybody heard that discussion
16 and there was a lot of discussion about that.
17
Last year's game harvest survey consisted
18 of seventy-two hundred and thirty-four
19 surveys randomly sent in three repeat
20 mailings. Fifty-nine hundred and seventeen
21 were confirmed as received by the addressee
22 of those and thirty-eight hundred and
23 forty-five were returned. There were two
0146
1 hundred and sixty-seven thousand ninety-nine
2 licensed hunters in Alabama that took this

3 survey. This equates to a sample that if
4 they were all returned, 1.4 percent of the
5 licensed hunters. As I understand this, this
6 is statistically better information.
7
Reportedly only seven percent of
8 Alabamians are hunters. If you assume that
9 twice that percentage of Barbour County
10 residents were hunters, you could estimate
11 that fourteen percent for the number of
12 Barbour County residents are thirty-three
13 thousand which equates to forty-six hundred
14 and twenty hunters.
15
The meetings that were held consisted of
16 eighty-eight people filled out a survey.
17 Using that figure, even if you determined
18 that 1.9 percent of the hunters in Barbour
19 County were surveyed, if you include in that
20 survey approximately three hundred people,
21 the sample size (inaudible) 8.3 percent.
22
So, therefore, people were given the
23 opportunity to come to the meetings. There
0147
1 was ample advertisement in both of the
2 newspapers in the county. It was on the
3 Charlie Pep show on WTVY in Dothan five
4 times. There were flyers put out all over
5 the communities in the county. You know,
6 you're just competing for people's time.
7 They were given the opportunity. It was well
8 advertised and so with that, I'd call for
9 questions.
10
MR. HATLEY: The Chair recognizes
11 Mr. Porter.
12
MR. PORTER: My dear colleague
13 Louis Coles has put in a lot of work on this
14 and I appreciate the work and the interest
15 that he's shown in this. And I have a really
16 diametrically opposing view on this. And my
17 concern and my whole motivation and my whole
18 point is really going to be what you want to
19 call basic freedom or freedom of choice.
20
Right now in Barbour County and the rest
21 of the state, you have a choice about how you

22 want to manage your deer herd. And I think
23 statistics nationwide show that you're losing
0148
1 hunters -- you're losing deer hunters caused
2 by over regulation. Federal Government and
3 the Bureau of Land Management is over
4 regulating the use of public land and the
5 access to land in the western portions of
6 this country.
7
And hunters are not -- it's not available
8 for them to hunt. The more regulations that
9 you impose and stack on the little guy, stack
10 on the blue collar worker, on the everyday
11 fellow that's having a hard enough time now
12 to go out and find a place to hunt because
13 the price of land's getting so high. All
14 this is going to do is it's going to keep him
15 from having access to hunt and it's going to
16 keep him from hunting. It's going to turn
17 into doing something else.
18
I mean you see that on the gun
19 industries. As was stated before, you over
20 regulate and you run off people that aren't
21 interested in dealing with it.
22
And the second idea that's very troubling
23 to me is this trophy hunting business. You
0149
1 know, only seven percent of the people in
2 this entire country hunt. And we in this
3 room tend to forget that. That we're a vast
4 minority of people that are allowed to hunt
5 because they think we do it fair and square.
6 That's why baiting will kill hunting quicker
7 than anything. And the role of the trophy
8 deer will kill hunting in this country. And
9 the concept of it is permeated throughout the
10 presentation made (inaudible) folks in
11 Barbour County. They want the (inaudible).
12 That, in itself, is going to be a concept the
13 majority of the people in this country just
14 are not going to abide by. And it's going to
15 start us down that slope of losing hunters
16 and that's something that I don't think any

17 of us want to see.
18
Lastly, I would point out if there is
19 such a ground swell support for this then why
20 not keep it voluntary? If everybody's going
21 to do it anyway, why regulate it? Why do you
22 have to regulate and make it a law that they
23 have to do this when it's evidently,
0150
1 according to the Government, so popular.
2 They'll do it anyway.
3
And I would close by saying this: Your
4 professionals have given you their opinion.
5 This is what they do for a living. The QDM
6 program is permeated with the thought that
7 it's a principle but it has to be voluntary.
8
There is no compelling reason to make
9 this a law. There is no compelling reason to
10 take away the freedom of choice that the
11 people have now. And I feel very strongly
12 about that. And as a consequence, I rise to
13 speak against the motion that Louis has made.
14 Thank you.
15
MR. HATLEY: Question has been
16 called for. All in favor of Mr. Coles'
17 motion -- would anyone like him to restate
18 it? All in favor of Mr. Coles' motion will
19 signify by raising your hands. All opposed.
20 Let the record reflect, motion carries.
21
Next order of business is to turn the
22 Chair back over to you Mr. Coles. You have
23 no further motions?
0151
1
MR. COLES: Is there any other
2 business? In your agenda, you notice that we
3 have old business. There was no old
4 business. That's why we skipped by that.
5 Mr. Moody.
6
MR. MOODY: Thank you. Just one
7 quick (inaudible) wildlife management area
8 recommendation and we'll be getting those to
9 the printer. But two quick changes that
10 inadvertently -- just points of
11 clarification. On Blue Creek Management

12 Areas, we intended to have some daylight
13 running and fox hunting at the request of
14 (inaudible) and we showed it in the changes
15 but we forget to put the season date in
16 there. It's the first four weeks of the
17 season I believe it is. So it's not a major
18 change but just wanted to be straight with
19 you on that.
20
And also at Demopolis, we had intended to
21 add new turkey hunting days and that just got
22 left off. So we'd like to do that as well.
23
0152
1
2
NEW BUSINESS
3
4
MR. HATLEY: Where are we on the
5 agenda? New business?
6
MR. COLES: We've already taken
7 care of some of the new business.
8
MR. HATLEY: I've got some new
9 business.
10
MR. COLES: State your new
11 business.
12
MR. HATLEY: Based on what we've
13 heard here today, I don't know -- in
14 discussion with Alan earlier, I don't know if
15 we have the authority to do this or not. But
16 I would like for us, legal counsel or
17 whatever to consider a resolution if we do
18 not have the authority to do it to act on
19 what Ms. Boyanton said to us about safety
20 harnesses. Giving it some thought. If we
21 need a resolution then I would propose that
22 we draft a resolution in support of safety
23 harnesses for climbing -0153
1
MR. COLES: Does that need to be a
2 legislative act?
3
MR. GOODWIN: Probably. It's not a
4 -- it's a means of hunting.
5
MR. HATLEY: What I'm saying is a
6 resolution. What I'm proposing is a

7 resolution from this Board in support of what
8 she had recommended and furthering that to
9 the legislature through the proper legal
10 channels.
11
MR. COLES: Okay. Are you making
12 an informal motion?
13
MR. HATLEY: I am.
14
MR. COLES: Is there a second?
15 Several seconds.
16
UNIDENTIFIED BOARD MEMBER: To come
17 up with a resolution?
18
MR. HATLEY: We voted for the legal
19 department to draft a resolution in support
20 of -- did that clarify that?
21
MR. COLES: Yes. It's just
22 permission to write a resolution in support
23 of legislation that might be passed to go a
0154
1 long with (inaudible). Mandatory safety
2 harnesses for deer stands. Any more
3 discussion? All those in favor signify by
4 saying I -- or raise your hand. All opposed?
5 Motion carries.
6
Anything else? Mr. May, I believe you
7 have a motion.
8
MR. MAY: Motion is I move to
9 approve all regulations adopted by the
10 department since our meeting last time.
11
MR. COLES: Any discussion? Motion
12 is to approve the actions of the Board and
13 the Department since our last meeting. All
14 those in favor signify by raising your hand.
15 All opposed? Motion carries.
16
17
SELECTION OF DATE AND LOCATION
18
19
MR. COLES: Next order of business is
20 the selection of the date and location of the
21 February 2006 Advisory Board Meeting which
22 will be held February the 4th. I offer the
23 suggestion that we let the Chairman and the
0155
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4
5
6
7
8
9
10
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13
14
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Commissioner set the meeting place and

announce it.
All right. Anything else to come before
the board? Seeing none, this meeting is
adjourned.
(Whereupon, the proceedings were concluded.)

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22 that then he would be appreciative of it.

17 false sense of security because he had hunted

12 laying alone for hours.

7 that's championed by every state in the

2 Alan and everybody in that department. If

21 they do come home.

16 last ten years. My wife and I fish national

11 As a result of that, there was a fish

6 (inaudible) fish per day. Currently, they're

1 Lake where you can catch the big stripes and

20 spend all their time picking up litter and

15 was like most deer hunters. I shot whatever

10 will be, that will be obvious, too. Please

19 the Barbour County Management area completed

14 public hasn't shown much interest?

9 than that statewide.

4 This is going to hurt our youth. It's going

23 deer in this country today? Are we turning

18 to the people of the state. They need to be

13 me. Mr. Ken White from Eufaula.

8 proposing in Barbour County is not going to

3 percentage. Give me a statistician, I can

22 gentleman here with us and he and myself

17 it must work for an individual area. Lot of

7 do. We complain about y'all a lot but

2 saying anything bad about y'all today but if

21 hunting or whatever other problems they had.

16 said this a few years ago and you laughed but

11 don't what y'all are going to do with the

6 room typically. I was hoping it was

1 (inaudible). They've also discussed right in

20 that's the basis y'all are going to use to

10 in Lamar County. We had substantiated

19 they are about their land.

14 me. Just an observation of watching some

9 to address. Number one, the reason that I

23 overpopulation. We're going to be just like

18 land. Didn't have enough to dog hunt on. We

13 poachers and night hunters.

8 about a little episode I had just this last

3 these German dogs. A hunting dog. It wasn't

22 dogs and without dogs. And the permit system

17 included in that group are spotted bass and

12 both of those areas. And we presented our

7 there was discussion and a vote and it did

2 Board Member Coles and individuals in Barbour

21 anything at all about any gathering of any

16 once and that's my understanding of it as

11 Management Association -- just from reading

6 property use and the property types and so

10 stance of your department on the

19 some of that choice that all hunters have.

14 for recreational fishing. And it's turned

9 Alabama were closed to shrimping on Tuesday,

4 time in our district than Ross and I are and

23 restore the park back to what it was to be

18 through resources that we don't have in Mark

3 about Gulf State Park. And speaking on

12 have a minimum of three points on one side.

2 licensed hunters in Alabama that took this

21 of the state, you have a choice about how you

16 and that's something that I don't think any

11 clarification. On Blue Creek Management