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Home > Melanie Phillips MONDAY 18 JANUARY 2010 RSS CONTACT US
The intimidation of the House of

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TUESDAY, 3RD FEBRUARY 2009
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I have been travelling during the past few days and so

Most read Most commented on
have built up a bit of a backlog of events upon which I
have not yet commented. One of these is the apparently 1 PMQs live blog - Peter Hoskin
gross abuse of Parliament by Lord Ahmed of Rotherham,
BUY THE CURRENT ISSUE which remarkably has not been covered at all in the 2 An energetic contest - Lloyd Evans
mainstream British media. Another member of the House
3 The government caves in to the Muslim
of Lords invited the Dutch politician Geert Wilders, who is
Council of Britain - James Forsyth
currently facing prosecution in the Netherlands for his
outspoken analysis of the Islamist war on civilisation, to 4 Is there a Labour revolt brewing over any
screen his controversial film ‘Fitna’ in the Lords on changes to universal jurisdiction? - James

Forsyth
January 29 and discuss his views.
5 Labour's coming man? - James Forsyth
But various representatives of the British Muslim community protested; and Lord
Ahmed issued a threat that he would personally mobilise 10,000 Muslims to
prevent Wilders from entering the Upper House and would take the peer
organising the event to court. In the face of such threats, the meeting was Search this blog
cancelled.
Lord Ahmed then boasted of his victory in the Pakistani media. The Associated
Press of Pakistan reported him exulting in:
Melanie's published articles

a victory for the Muslim community.
Get a free In search of the work ethic
brochure for Al Qaeda in Africa
the new 2010 (Update: Lord Ahmed has been in touch to deny that he ever issued such ‘Londonistan’ is still the weakest link
Range Rover a threat) Israel’s false friend
Sport The growing threat to free speech
Find out more It was of course a major defeat for Parliament’s sovereign right and duty to Sleepwalking off the cultural cliff
protect free speech, the right to issue an invitation to a democratically elected Britain’s real class war
member of a European parliament, and the right of British citizens to live without Switzerland draws the line
intimidation. It was an appalling development. Spectator Diary
A diminishing ethic of care
Melanie Phillips is a Daily Mail columnist. She

Previous Back to Melanie Phillips Next also writes for the Jewish Chronicle and is a
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Roy of news hits me like a ton of bricks. As if it isn't Free laser eye correction – enter now for your chance
February 3rd, 2009 10:58am
bad enough that well known Yorkshire mill to win!
towns have been taken over by the sins of www.opticalexpress.com
darkness, so have the Lords been stricken.
Buy a link here
This is the link to 'Fitna'. Judge for yourselves.
Ros Morris One friend who I sent it to is rather scathing of
February 3rd, 2009 11:04am Latest blog posts
its 'balance'. I'd be interested in hearing others'
views.
COFFEE HOUSE
The burka is a symbol of division, but
http://video.google.com/videoplay? it should not be banned
docid=3369102968312745410 Comments (37)
Melanie CAPPUCCINO CULTURE

Wilhelm Fearing the worst
February 3rd, 2009 11:36am Comments (3)
The house of lords and commons is a chimps
tea party. You cant take it seriously.
FAITH BASED
Melanie, Faith schools are damaging religious
Kevyn Bodman identity
You are correct.
February 3rd, 2009 11:47am Comments (15)
This kind of Muslim politicians like Lord Ahmed

Alhanih H Niawi are the ones promoting extremism in Britain,
February 3rd, 2009 11:57am
just like the Imams in the mosque who are
preaching hate, he is very bad role model for
Muslim liberals and Europeans who was born to
have democratic freedom, why he doesn't want
the Dutch man to come to Britain and talk about
the problems facing Europe at this century? of
course he is hiding something and hiding the
truth, I wonder why there are something like
10,000 young Muslims who want to blow
themselves up? those young people know they
are allow to do what they want by politicians like
this, they know they will always be protected by
someone like Lord Ahmed
Melanie says, quite correctly of course, that this

JJS will be "another notch on the ratchet of Britain’s
February 3rd, 2009 12:12pm
slide into submission". The important word is
"another" -- and I can't help thinking that when
the number of things of this nature that are
happening right now is as high as it is, it has the
effect of becoming too big -- too much -- to
comprehend. Not being able to see the trees for
the wood, as it were. It's all so mind-numbing
that we just sit and watch it happen -- powerless
to stop the decline of our own sysyem of values
-- and oblivious to the idea that precisely by
sitting by we allowed it to start happening in the
first place. Sad beyond words.
Melanie, an ideal time to raise the profile of

Alex Creel British Jews and re-take the moral high ground
after the Gaza PR disaster. Rally the troops to
attend the Lords and ensure Wilder's safe
passage. 'Jewish Brits defend our free speech' -
a daily mail headline I'd actually like to see.
It's a bit rich for Wilders to be concerned about

Geoff free speech, considering he has called for the
Koran to be banned. Either there is free speech
for all, or there isn't. You can't have it both ways
to suit you, so I don't really think He or his
supporters have a leg to stand on when they
complain about being banned from the Lords.
(incidentally, I am a supporter of free speech, so

do support Wilders going to the Lords, no matter
how much I disagree with his views)
Would this be the same Lord Ahmed who invited

Sempronius the notorious Swedish anti-Semite "Israel
Shamir" to the House of Lords back in 2005?
(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article378140.ece)
JJS, "The idea that precisely by sitting by we

Oliwagino Alefava allowed it to start happening in the first place".
Yihiri Sad beyond words, this things been happening
for a long time the British been sleep walking
and there are still some who are walking around
with there pyjamas, Melanie published a book
few years ago, some people did not take it
seriously Londonistan: How Britain is creating a
terror state Within, now some people are slowly
waking up, i think it is kind of too late
So Lord Ahmed threatened to mobilise 10,000
Suffolkbor muslims to physically prevent Geert Wilders
from from entering the upper house ?
Is that not a clear incitement to subvert the rules
of democracy by inciting mob violence ?
If a peer threatened to call up 10,000 rural
people up from the sticks to protest about how
country people are treated in this land they
would be censured by the appropriate
committee and doubtless investigated by the
police .
This country seems be barrelling headlong into
becoming an Islamic state at an increasing
speed and no one seems able to apply the
brakes .
Ros Morris 11.04 am...you say you have a friend

Original Tony that is scathing in his commentary about the
Fitna movie because it is 'not balanced'.
The whole purpose of the movie is to show
extremist atrocities. May I ask your friend how
he proposes to "balance" the extremism
depicted in the video? Will he balance it by
showing the virtues and successes of Islamic
countries perhaps? Maybe "balance" it by
putting in a link to a Moslem Nobel prize winner
perhaps...oh hang on there is only one Muslim
who has received the award...well lets "balance"
the atrocities by looking at Muslim advances in
science, technology...surgical procedures
perhaps? What about tiny little robots that can
operate inside a human to save a life, you know,
the type invented by one of the nearly 200 Nobel
prize winners Israel has produced?
How exactly will your friend propose "balancing"
a video that depicts the truth about the horror of
Islamic fundamentalism. Come on, PLEASE tell
me!
Frankly, Geert Wilders makes for a very poor

Lynne T spokesperson. Lord Ahmed would have a much
harder time denying Judea Pearl the opportunity
to speak to the H of L.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123362422088941893.html
I have seen Fitna. It doesn't show or say

Gary O anything that an intelligent person or someone
with a healthy scepticism of islam doesn't know
already. The film doesn't even begin to scratch
the surface of the imminent danger our
civilisation is in. More power to the peers who
have invited Geert, though.
Come on Britian, enough is enough! I just

Original Tony cannot believe a peer made this threat in public
and got away with it.
I am glad some other peers have got the guts to
insist the movie is shown. I for one will be at the
airport to help escort Mr. Wilders to parliament!
Just so we can all keep count, how many

Meh notches are there on this ratchet leading to
submission? (presumably submission is also
the end of civilisation, but who knows).
Is this the same Lord Ahmed,a convicted drunk

Austin Barry driver, who on 23 February 2005, hosted a book
launch in the House of Lords for the notorious
anti-semite Israel Shamir - a man who
apparently believes that ritual murders of
Christians are carried out by a group of Jewish
"deviants"?
Incredible. Related, HM Gov are hiding behind

Vision Aforethought the lie that lots of children and elderly are being
run over by speeding Waitrose shoppers and
therefore building a network of intelligent 'speed'
cams
(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/article5645536.ece)
that track your number plate. Assuming for a
moment this system really is for keeping us at a
subservient 20mph, how does it stop joy riders
who end up crashing into houses at 80mph
killing themselves and their passengers so they
cannot pay the fine anyway? (Answer: It
doesn't.) These cameras are for monitoring the
people by a very very dangerous government
who are becoming little different from the issues
that Mr. Wilders is concerned about.
As someone in 'IT', the potential for missuse of
all this privacy invasive technology is substantial
and lord elpus when it gets into the wrong
hands.
Am interested to know what M thinks of all this?
Well I've been part of a group of thousands

Dave protesting outside Parliament. If people want to
cancel meetings that's up to them. But taking to
the streets in protest seems the very point of
freedom of speech.
Who (re)invited Wilders to the HoL? I would like

DavidMWW to know.
Ahmed is a hypocrite. He invited a known and

Barry Larking outspoken anti-semite to the House of Lords
Remand Hostel.
I care little what this film or its maker are but I

do care that someone threatened to make
trouble on the streets and was rewarded.
The main stream media have not touched this

because they are spineless and are fearful of
Moselm reaction. However, today many more
millions are getting their information from sites
such as these. Spread the word.
The 'never' elected Ahmed is exposed.
Original Tony
Conservative Cabbie
Balance in Fitna.
The main purpose of Fitna is to show that the

Koran calls for the violence practiced by Islamic
extremists. Perhaps balance could be shown by
revealing the passages in the Koran that don't
advocate violence but instead focus on peace
and love.
The Bible will tell you to stone adulterers whilst

a few pages later will tell you to "love thy
neighbour". The Koran is no different.
@Original Tony. I'm only saying what my friend

Ros Morris said. I'm not saying that I agree with him! I
looked at the video. Trying to be dispassionate. I
thought to myself that maybe, just maybe the
very nice bearded gentlemen were simply being
'allegorical' when stating that Islam should take
over the world; that Jews should be humiliated
and killed and Israel wiped off the face of the
map. The trouble is that there are simply too
many occasions now where these
sermons/speeches/videos are shown in the
Middle East and, presumably, here in Europe. I
would hope that not every Muslim feels this way.
I just wish that if this were the case, that we
heard more of their voices. Even if Wilders is not
squeaky clean vis a vis his view that the Koran
should be 'banned', there's no reason why this
video should be banned.
Conservative Cabbie,
Bill M
Apparently, you've not read the Bible. Your
statement is not true. Nice try, though.
Good point Ros, but you wont hear any

fullenglish moderate Muslim opinion on this blog because
they have all been scared off.
There is a reason why Wilders brought up the

zoltix idea of banning the Koran. It's because the
Netherlands already has a 60 year old law
banning Mein Kampf and he was making a
comparison between the treatment of the two. In
interviews in countries that do not have this
legislation, he tends to adopt the demand that
muslims should amend the Koran to remove or
disown the unpleasant koran parts in the way
that modern Christianity has done with the
Bible. This is also why you cannot apologise for
the koran by pointing out lines from the Old
Testament on the grounds that 'they are all as
bad as each other'.
We should keep our fingers crossed that Lord

Thom Ahmed wont be in the House of Lords for a
while.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5645422.ece
(Read the last paragraph).
People should monitor the courts to see its

judgement here, and whether justice is still blind
in this country; methinks this will be highly
indicative of the state of our justice system, and
our flaccid media for its under-reporting.
Conservative cabbie. 1:59pm

Original Tony
The subtle difference between the Koran and the
Bible is that the Koran encourages its believers
to kill people OUTSIDE the Moslem faith
(infidels) whereas the old testament ritual of
stoning was to discipline people WITHIN
Judaism (to purify them). This was later curtailed
by secular laws under various Kings and the
coming of Christ, as per the New Testament.
Therefore, even if the Koran has scriptures that
encourage peace and love, the net effect is that
terror is still exported to those outside Islam by
doctrine, which is not the case in Judaism and
Christianity. In this context you can't really
balance horrific acts of violence (on others)with a
few lines of 'peace and love' in the Koran.
1689 Bill of Rights (Artcile 9)

dga5000
Members and Peers should be able to speak
and act freely in parliament.
So this right was enshrines way before the

Human Rights Act and should be maintained.
Hopefully the film will be screened without fear

Wyn or favour. How can the HOL allow these threats
to deter them? This issue means more than
merely being allowed to screen a contentious
film, it is setting a precedent and amounts to
one man intimidating everyone else. It is yet
another test of wills between our society and
people who would rule by fear.
My concern is that a Lord of the Realm - i.e. the

Penny whole of the UK and ALL its people, sees fit to
declare his intial success as a 'victory' for the
muslim community.
He does very little to promote a)freedom of

speech,b)the views of the majority of moderate
muslims and non-muslims c) their security d)his
own dedication to ALL citizens of the UK.
Why does Lord Ahmed think the sight of 10,000

muslims protesting against freedom of speech is
either a victory or is going to support community
cohesion in the UK?
The only 'victory; I can envisage is for the young

radicals or the BNP.
I would be less concerned if Lord Ahmed had

shown some balance and also taken issue with
past protest marches where young men are
covering their faces and holding banners, the
nature of which were quite violent towards the
UK and the West in general. He should then
have rallied 10,000 moderates to march in peace
to demonstrate the majority view.
The member issuing the invitation wasn't

suggesting a nation-wide, public screening, but
a private session follwed by a discussion. I
daresay that amongst the guests there will be a
'discussion', with both sides able to offer up their
views. Sounds fairly democratic to me.
Geoff - although I take your point about Wilder's

apparent wish to remove certain pages from the
Koran - the difference is that most Jews and
Christians, although aware of the biblical
references to punitive measures being taken
against others (e.g. stoning)I know of none who
believe them to be valid in this day and age. This
is not the case for the jihad-orientated
extremists in our midst.
Freedom of speech, and what it's limits are, has

Augustus certainly been skewed recently. On the one
hand you have people holding Nazi banners and
shouting 'the Jews to the gas' in public streets
all over the western world without anybody
taking any action, and on the other you have a
people's representative in a civilized western
country producing a film which only criticizes
and shows up Islam and the Koran for its
ideology, but does not suggest violence towards
Muslims, and he is ordered to face trial for
inciting hatred. Isn't that a twisted interpretation
of free speech?
Hello EURABIA
Gerald
Bill M. It appears you are the one who needs

Vogon bible lessons. Deut 22:22, "If a man is found
sleeping with another man's wife, both the man
who slept with her and the woman must die."
I'm sure there's a "love thy neighbour" in the

bible somewhere too.
Democracy and free speech at woek -

Jason from AZ Londonstan style. Get used to it UK and the
rest of Eurabia - this is your future.
@ Cabbie
Dr Michael Jones
"The Bible will tell you to stone adulterers whilst
a few pages later will tell you to "love thy
neighbour". The Koran is no different."
The main difference is that Jews and Christians

haven't stoned anyone to death for 2000 years...
while Muslims do it practically on a monthly
basis. Open your eyes.
If 10 000 Muslims do turn up then the whole

Woody Metropolitan police force (sorry, service) will
RUN backwards again.
PERHAPS- THE COUNTRYSIDE ALLIANCE

Raymond Joseph SHOULD DRESS UP AS MUSLIMS NEXT TIME
Douglas THEY COME DOWN TO PROTEST AT
PARLIAMENT !
Conservative Cabbie: maybe you've been stuck

Shank's Mare in traffic too long, but we Christians are under
the Covenant of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ to the Jews who intended to carry

out the stoning of an adulteress: "Let he who is
without sin cast the first stone" and to the
adulteress: "Henceforth, go and sin no more"
Commit it to memory. Repeat it to any Muslim

customers you pick up and one or two
'secularists', too. Spread the Good News. It
might just make a difference.
Is Wilders turning towards fascists for help,

charles soper despite his disavowal of racism? I have heard
rumours of this.
If so it would be a shame on the many sheepish
Europeans opposed to jihadi Islam but equally
opposed to fascist racists, yet unwilling to say
so.
Woody:
Suffolkbor If 10,000 Muslims turned up outside the House
of Lords the metropolitan police would enter the
guinness book of records for the worlds fastest
backward sprint .
That,s if they bothered to turn up at all that is .
They must be longing for another Countryside
Alliance march so that they can get down to the
much more satisfying business of truncheoning
rural british people into the tarmac .
Dear Ms Phillips,
Archbishop Cranmer
His Grace reported on the Lord Ahmed threat as
the story broke, and it has been linked to all
over the world. His Grace has even received
requests to be interviewed on US television, but,
owing to the lack of a corporeal presence, was
unable to accept.
However, he will be posting a story tomorrow

which may be of considerable interest to you,
and might either result in a prosecution or Lord
Ahmed being expelled from the Lords under the
Justice Secretary's new proposals.
Shalom.
Jews and Muslims. Both are Semites. Learn to

fullenglish get along and stop scaremongering. You have
more in common then you care to acknowledge.
Geert Wilder's Fitna is only repeating the words

Bailey and verses that are IN the Koran.
Technically, the only thing guilty of hate speech

in Fitna...IS THE KORAN...NOT Mr. Wilders.
So, that means his real crime was in revealing

those hateful and inciteful words to YOU... non-
Muslims.
Cheers to the Parliament for bringing Mr Wilders

back.
You should send an email if possible to let them

know you support this decision...and that you
do not like being threatened by ANYONE.
They need to know that the public is supporting

them.
If you want to see another interesting movie,

Bailey google OBSESSION: RADICAL ISLAM'S WAR
AGAINST THE WEST.
Greetings! from Islamic Republic of Great Britain

Margaret Muller-
Johansson
Is this the same Lord Ahmed facing sentencing

Ken this month for dangerous driving (texting while
behind the wheel)? If so his punishment could
be enlightening. Might it be more than the 21
months given Philippa Curtis for the same
offence? Her and his behaviour led to identical
outcomes - the death of innocent others.
Brilliant Melanie!
Winston Smith
You are the first British journalist to publish this
article in a mainstream media outlet. All credit
to you. I've known of this article for a while now.
You are helping to educate the British public on
the threat of Islamisation.
Brilliant!!!
I think Ahmed is somewhat confused. If he can

Paul L get 10,000 Islamists to the Lords I think they
may be there for very different reasons to those
he pretends to think; remember cuddly Omar
Bakri, the freeloading inspiration of many a
'disaffected moderate'? he said of Fitna ".. if we
leave out the first images and the sound of the
page being torn, it could be a film by the
Mujahideen,".
Is that Ahmed's objection? That it is accurate?

that variants of it are watched in thousands of
frontrooms in our nation by many thousands of
'moderates'? but that the somnambulent Brits
must be prevented from getting a taster of what
the 10,000 really are like - and that just wont
do?
A solemn, authorative voice of reproval against
Daibhidh MacAdhaimh Ahmed's threat should have been raised in the
House of Lords loud enough to have been heard
in the Commons. And the reaction from the
latter firm and effective enough to render the
threat impotent, and also re-affirm Parliament's
sovereignty.
Re-inviting Wilders suggests that dignity was
restored.
The link to Fitna provided by Ros Morris seems

Herbert Thornton to have been blocked, but a Google search of
OBSESSION mentioned by Bailey does
produce the video.
The postings referring to the Koran in these

blogs generally include little discussion of why
the Koran contains apparently contradictory
teachings - some calling for violence and killing
and others far more peaceful.
An important question, it seems to me, is how

Islam resolves these. On that question, there is
a very informative video called - "Islam: What
The West Needs To Know". It can be accessed
via Google.
That this disgraceful action by Lord Ahmed

Joe Strummer wasn't a front page headline or made the British
television news says it all about the cowardice
of the UK media in regards to airing possible
negative Muslim stories.
There is an interesting point of law about the

Augustus Wilders case, Whenever someone like Wilders
mentions Islam, or even immigrants, there are
those in authority who label such people a
Fascist. So even if Wilders goes to court and
loses his case, it will mean that these anti-
Fascists will also be obliged to hold their
tongues. What's sauce for the goose...
Thank you, again, Melanie, for your unflagging

Alcuin support for our institutions, now under such
virulent attack and mounting such a pathetic
defence. I hope you will not suffer the fate of
Cassandra in actually seeing your worst fears
realised.
Lord Ahmed was supposed to be a moderate,

but then so was Sacranie, Ramadan, and all the
others the BBC used to trot out to prop up its
collapsing "diversity" agenda. Yet still we get
whitewash programmes on Islam, like Rageh
Omaar's recent take on the Crusades. One
could think of worse people to cover this
subject, but not many.
One wonders if there are any moderate Muslims

left in public life in Britain - if there are, they are
keeping surprisingly quiet. Red Ken's friend
(Qaradawi) has now unashamedly joined the
SS, yet silence from Ken.
As this link below points out: 'The truth of the

Sheila matter is “Fitna” simply reflected how radical
Muslims think and act, inspired by the Koran.
'Wilders’ comparison of the Koran to Adolf

Hitler’s “Mein Kampf”, and his describing it as a
fascist book, is not inappropriate. Hitler referred
to the Jews as “rats and vermin” and the Koran
and fascist Muslims call them “The descendants
of apes and pigs”.'
Notice the way the European political elite are

only too happy to see Geert Wilders prosecuted
but as that same link notes: 'Most recently,
demonstrators in Berlin and Munich and
elsewhere in Germany raised banners reading:
“Hamas! Hamas! Jews to the gas”.
'The police did not intervene or arrest anyone;

nobody filed a legal proceeding against this
blatant incitement to murder and genocide,
which, in the German law, is punishable.'
Islam trumps everything in Europe.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Sami/Prosecution-
of-Wilders-Opportunity-for-Exposing-Islam.htm
Bill M
Conservative Cabbie
"take the man or woman who has done this evil
deed to your city gate and stone that person to
death." Deuteronomy 17:2-5
"If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an

husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie
with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto
the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them
with stones that they die" Deuteronomy 22:23-
24
"And he that blasphemeth the name of the

LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all
the congregation shall certainly stone him"
Leviticus 24:16
Apparently there are 18 references to stoning in

the bible and none in the Koran. My point was
that the texts of the books are irrelevant, it is the
practices of the adherents that should be
judged, and for that Islamic extremism should
be condemned.
Breaking news: Wilders has appealed to the

George Dutch Court and requested it to remove the case
against him, saying that his remarks fall within
the realm of normal discourse and that a
prosecution against him is a "threat to his right
of freedom of speech."
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024696.php#respond
Imagine how different things might be in England

if we had a man of the calibre of Geert Wilders.
Dave
Dixon February 3rd, 2009 1:44pm
Well I've been part of a group of thousands
protesting outside Parliament. If people want to
cancel meetings that's up to them. But taking to
the streets in protest seems the very point of
freedom of speech."
Iview it differently. I have always regarded the

mob as Humanity at its lowest ebb. Freedom of
speech is precisely that. You are free to speak.
Not disrupt other peoples freedom to move and
conduct their lawful business.
I would ban all demonstrations, for the time

being.
I would also ban public attendance at football

matches. The disruption and potential for
violence they cause is even worse.
You can ban the football as well for all I care.
Melanie, your article is excellent and your points

Al Rassooli: Author of well made. Keep up the excellent work. As you
the book “Lifting the rightly say it is a total disgrace that the House
Veil: The True Faces of of Lords can be hijacked and intimidated in this
Muhammad and Islam” way, and a sad moment when it is cowed
literally in Submission. Let’s hope sense and
justice prevails and the Lords prove courageous
enough to insist on watching Mr. Wilders short
film (in which he says nothing but lets the Quran
and spokes persons for Islam speak in their own
voices for themselves).
"It's all so mind-numbing that we just sit and

Dave M watch it happen -- powerless to stop the decline
of our own sysyem of values..."
I'm not so sure quite yet. I get the impression

lately the working classes in Britain have had a
belly full of immigration, political correctness
and multiculturalism. As we all know, there is an
uneasiness about what's taking place,
especially the threat to employment via mass
immigration which has now led to mass job
walk-outs. Let's just look at the facts and cheer
ourselves up a litte - we could use a bit of good
news. First the Beeb actually backs off
screening a pro Palestinian charity show. This is
no doubt because they've been bombarded by
irate letters over their biased coverage of Israel's
military action. The fact is the Beeb has already
received thousands of angry letters protesting
over their slurs against Israel and defence of
Hamas terrorists. That's why the Beeb backed
down. Also, the working classes are turning
against New Labour and dropping Brown like a
proverbial bad habit. They're tired of coming
second to immigrants, tired of losing the right of
free speech (due to the Government's courting of
Islam) and tired of not being given a say over the
E.U.
One thing history teaches is even Lenin was
apparently taken by surprise when the Russian
Plebs rebelled against the Tsar Nicholas. Well,
in Britain I think people have had enough too.
Neither New Labour nor the Beb connect with
normal working people any more and some of us
are tired of hearing excuses made for terrorists.
Melanie, Thanks very much for writing about this

Adam topic, it is an absolute disgrace and shows just
February 4th, 2009 12:04am
how far islamic appeasement has progressed in
the UK.
My only thought is that you should have

produced this in the Daily Mail as it deserves a
wider audience.
the people in the UK need to know what is going

on, the fact no other mainstream media have
even mentioned this very real and very disturbing
story is a blight on journalism.
thank you melanie, it's unbelievable that not one

gary ashton mainstream media outlet acknowledges this
story.
over here we had an islamic cleric (yet again)
giving a sermon to a group of young men saying
how it is okay for the husband to beat up the
wife.
this was immediately slammed by the australian
media and our pm made a statement saying the
cleric should apologize or be stood down.
Hopefully "Lord" Ahmed is going to receive a

Dave Coates lengthy jail sentence later this month, for
causing death by dangerous driving. Don't hold
your breath though!
PC has become the new truth - even though the

Halls reality could be staring you in the face -
What Lord Ahmed wants us to hear and believe

is that Islam means peace and throughout its
entire history - it has never used violence / jihad
to spread the religion or to punish those who
would not join or decided to leave.
Even though - there are glaring examples of this

in the Koran -
Lord Ahmed - wants everyone to believe that the

Koran - says nothing untoward about the Jews
or the non-believer - even though we go to
youtube and hear Muslims Imams saying these
same things - because they are found in their
Koran.
The PC surrounding Islam has gotten so

ridiculous we are expected to say things about
Islam - that we would not even say for
Christianity.
The problem is that PC has become - the new

propaganda - and Lord Ahmed threatened the
House of Lords with 10,000 Muslim men - to
keeps us all in line - with acceptable Islamic-
speak. But this is not an Islamic nation - and
thing kind of repression - well doesn't fit in with
our way of life!!
Conservative Cabbie,
Sarah
Quoting the Old Testament is such a canard. Do
you know that the New Testament replaces it?
Why don't you tell us what replaces the Qur'an
and Hadith, since you won't find it?
This is for those posters who are trying to

Ted Williams promote a moral equivalance between the Bible
and the Koran.
The Law of Moses as outlined in the Old

Testament was fufilled in Christ, meaning that it
was no longer applicable since He brought in a
higher law. The book of Hebrews in the New
Testament explains this quite well.
The same cannot be said of Islam. The principle

of abrogation means that where there is a
conflict between an earlier passage and a later
one, the later one will cancel out the earlier. So,
the peaceful parts of the Koran are cancelled by
the violent passages that were received later on
and conflict with the peaceful doctrines.
Shank's Mare
Conservative Cabbie
"Repeat it to any Muslim customers you pick
up"
Not if I want tips!
It would be wise to ponder on the fatuous

Annabel analysis of 'Fitna' by one of Europe's so-called
intellectuals, Ian Buruma, who fails to
acknowledge that Geert Wilders has received
death threats and requires constant protection.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/29/opinion/edbaruma.1
-418385.php
Does Lord Ahmed wish to introduce a culture of

violence and intimidation to the UK similar to the
one prevailing in Holland? ('wish' may not be the
right word as it seems his thuggery is already
paying dividends)
Yes, Lord Ahmed should be asked to account

for his morally repugnant and corrupt action.
Conservative Cabbie: You are being deliberately

Lucretius blind. Foundational texts of any ideology are the
basis by which adherency is obtained. No, the
order for stoning is not in the Koran (or Qur'an,
either spelling is correct): the order for stoning is
to be found in the ahadith (plural of hadith) of al-
Bukhari and is also related in Ibn Ishaq's
biography of Muhammad (M's first Moslem
biographer). The hadiths (using English
language plural) are the stories, sayings and
facts about the life of Muhammad which, along
with the Koran and the Sira (biography of
Muhammad by Moslem biographers, principally
Ibn Ishaq) form the basis of the holy texts of
Islam.
In the Bukhari hadith relating the stoning,

Muhammad demands of the Jews why they no
longer obey their own laws. They explain they
now 'name and shame' as we would say and
employ some degree of compassion: they
accuse the person(s) of adultery and, if guilty,
the person(s) are flogged. The Jews no longer, in
Muhammad's time (7th century) did stoning.
Muhammad (with an army of his followers at his
back) gives the order that the couple be stoned
to death:
Ibn Ishaq p363 and Bukhari 5.64.4037.
The teachings, words and life of Jesus Christ, of

course, are the basis of Western civilisation and
He preached mercy, compassion AND
repentance (to the adulteress, "Henceforth, go
and sin no more").
Sometimes when I go out I say can I have an

Margaret Muller- English man or woman to serve me? there are
Johansson hardly any, the labour government give jobs and
respect the massive immigrants coming from all
over the world, mostly the immigrants from the
failing Islamic countries, they are the first to
have accommodations and schools when the
British are on the waiting list, then last few
years there where ones from the EU countries,
there are a lot of them, some of them say they
are from Spain when they are from Mexico, and
some say they are from Portugal when they are
from Brazil, I knew this was going to create a
problem, I saw the first time the British working
class angry and expressing themselves for
example walking out from their jobs I don't
blame them, the working class can't find any
jobs even working in the pub, everyone is
foreigner now a days
Margaret Muller-Johansson
ChakDePhatte February 4th, 2009 11:28am
February 4th, 2009 1:01pm
Sometimes when I go out I say can I have an
English man or woman to serve me? there are
hardly any.
One of the many reasons there are so many is
that many English people would see these jobs
as "below them" and therefore refuse to do
them. Of course have some kind of quota, but
us English need to pull our fingers out and
sometimes have to do the jobs that we dont
much like doing.
I do not agree with what Lord Ahmed proposed,

and it is a failure of the system to let this
happen. Many of you here are complaining
about Muslim Radicals - why does no one talk
about the Jewish Radicals, and the Christian
Fundamentalists - many of whom are based in
the deep south of the US. Lets not forget, the
IRA - a past terrorist organisation - were they
not Christian?
The Qur'an (not Koran) is not much different to
the Bible or the Torah. All three teach peace and
love for all, regardless of race or religion before
anything else. Each book can also be seen to
incite violence, it depends on your interpretation.
Let me ask, how many of you here that are
commenting on the Qur'an have actually read it?
If we talk on the basis of faith, then Christians
and Jews believe that the Old Testament and
Torah are the word of god. Surely God will not
produce texts that are now seen as "wrong".
How can the Christians and Jews ignore /
change certain verses of their scriptures - do
they see the scriptures as being wrong and
hence challenge their God? It is not to say that
the Qur'an is always interpreted correctly. I
disagree with many interpretations, especially
those that incite violence, but lets not just
narrow it down to one religion, all religions do
that.
From Belgravia to Belgrabia

Farsee to Eurabia. Not too long to
wait now.
Conservative Cabbie, I know our overview is

Dixon similar but I think you have swallowed the other
lots wife on this one.
The Bible is an old collection of stories

purporting to be accounts of what people
actually said and did. some of them said things
that contradict others, not least Jesus himself.
Not least Moses and Abraham that bunch of
throwbacks.
The Quoran is atterly and completely different.

For a start, it has no narrative structure
whatsoever. Its parts are organised in
descending sequence of LENGTHs specifically
preventing any narrative reading. More to the
point, it is not an account of acts and
statements but a direct, blow by blow set of
prescriptions for all aspects of daily and
community life, including exact directions on
such matters as family law and inheritance.
Whilst many of these rules have been adjusted

in the "Hadith", based on the statements and
actions of Mohammed, the concept remains the
same: that the prophets "teachings" are not
parables but literal directives.
There is absolutely no paralell or similarity
between the Bible and the Quoran. It is a staple
red-herring of the apologists to state that they
are alike.
One more thing, when people say we cannot

really understand the Quoran unless we read it
in the "original" Arabic, this is an hilarious
howler: There was no written form of Arabic in
Mohammeds lifetime. He dictated it to an
amenuensis who would have transcribed it into
an older language, perhaps Aramaic.
So the "original" Arabic version of the book is

itself a translation.
Thanks Dixon, Arabic came later then Aramaic,

Jemar Fasil Hebrew and Amharic
ChakDePhatte, what is the difference between
Koran & Qur'an? I thought the real saying is
Quraan
it is the same as saying
Abdullah & Abdallah,
Hussein & Husseiyn
just the same thing
indeed there was no written arabic in the time of

ChakDePhatte Mohammed, but what was passed to him by the
angel as the word of God was memorised and
later on written down.
On the point that the Qur'an and the Bible have
no similarity; is the Old Testament not the word
of God? The same God which refers to the Bible
in the Qur'an and refers to Jesus more times in
the Qur'an than Mohammad himself?
The Qur'an is not in descending sequence of
length. there are many verses in the middle that
are shorter than the ones at the end. Yes it
does give a blow by blow set of prescriptions -
but are these prescriptions wrong? if analysed
many of these blow by blow accounts are either
the same or slight refintements of what is in the
Old Testament or the Torah.
p.s. Dixon, you have not referred to the Torah at
all - any points on that? If Judaism and Islam are
so different then why are Muslims allowed to eat
Kosher meat as it is slaughtered in the same
manner? If Christianity and Judaism are so
different from Islam then why are Muslims
allowed to marry Jewish and Christian women
without them having to convert to Islam?
We need to look further than just the few verses
that some extremist has spewed on television
and look at the whole religion, not just a few
verses that have been incorrectly interpreted and
full explanation for that interpretation not
provided.
Ted Williams and Sarah- Sorry to disappoint you

stanley Jerusalem but it's only Christian doctrine that your New
Testament replaces ours. We Jews don't think
that you are right about that, only justifying your
own dogma. We don't even refer to own bible as
the Old Testament since that would presuppose
the existence of a 'New' one.One may as well
refer to the Koran as the 'newest' Testament; of
course folks like Richard Reid do only nowadays
they throw their shoes rather than blow them up.
Jemar Fasil
stanley Jerusalem February 4th, 2009 3:04pm
It's called transliteration and is determined only
by which language you are going from and to.
E.G. In French the English letter K is
represented by Q and the sound SH- by CH-.
Here's a few thoughts about the Torah from a

Simon Christian (of non-Jewish descent), who is very
appreciative and sympathetic of Jews. I just offer
my take on this.
I think it is wrong to suggest or imply that the

modern state of Israel should 'bring back
stoning', or
re-model their society on the judicial laws of

what I call the Old Testament. Melanie Phillips
does not even suggest for that, nor does any
Jew that I know of.
I am not convinced by the argument that these
laws were intended for all Jewish states, or for
that old Jewish state that was wiped out (as a
state) in the first centiry AD - or whatever this is
in the Jewsish calendar. Here's why:
Readers of the Torah will notice that the laws

are moral. Because given by God, who is moral
and who
determines what is moral. Looking closer at the

laws, we see that there are underlying moral
principles
(which are, surely, for all mankind and are the

moral standards to which God holds all of us
accountable). Then there are the God-prescribed
civil penulties, which were not for all mankind
but specific for the old nation of Israel. We see a
scale of seriousness of crimes, and we see that
these were to be brought before the tribal elders
(minor), Levites (more serious) and the special
God-anointed Judges of those days (most
serious). They were to attempt to determine the
truth of any accusation againse people who
were brought before them, and then pass
sentance.
Note: according to the Torah, these civil

magistrates alone were authorised by God to
judge cases and to pass such sentances. And
they were to do so sitting in the city gates or in
the special place that God would choose to put
his name (which we later find was the court of
the Temple. That was the highest court of the
land.
Is there any justification for putting these judicial

laws (the prescribed sentances) back on to the
'statute books' of the modern state of Israel? Not

unless they have the same God-ordained tribal
elders, Levites and Judges.
But as with all other nations, the modern state

of Israel should, so I think, to base their laws on
the
moral law of God. This is the Ten

commandments and all that can be deduced
from them, or in other words, the moral
principles underlying the Torah's judicial laws.
Like as with all nations, they can look at the
Torah's civil laws and underatsnd them, and use
them as examples - not necessarily to be
implimented "as-is" today, but they should
develop similar judicial laws for the judicial
system and judges that they now have.
I think this because God's moral standards have

not changed, but time and circumstances have.
What was sin in God's eyes then, he still holds
to be sin now, and he always will.
So there is room, I think, for some differences in

the way these things are judged and sentenced
in any
nation.
But is there scope for no longer holding some

things to be *crimes* any more? Perhaps
someone can build an argument, based on
God's word (Old or New Testament), which
allows some things that were treated as crimes
in the old nation of Israel (e.g., adultery) to be no
longer treated as crimes by our modern states.
But I've only heard arguments that require a
rejection of God's word and his moral standard.
-+-+-+-
One final thought about recent (sometimes well-

meaning) opinion seen on this blog for all Jews
to
emmigrate to the modern state of Israel. I see a
reason why this should not be done: nobody
should not
be forbidden to live anywhere in the world that

they may choose, or be encouraged to "go
home" (whether by threat or anti-semitism or
good intentions) to their homeland. The homes
of Jews are anywhere they choose to live in this
world. Same for any other people, surely.
My prayer to God is that he will prevent Iran or

any other Islamist state/group to destroy the
nation of Israel by nuclear bomb - or by any
other method.
These men, so we hear from their own

broadcasts, think it is moral to wipe out the
nation of Israel, and to kill Jews and attack their
property and businesses. This they get from
their religious books.
Surely, God disagrees with them.
May God bless and protect you and your family

and people, Melanie Phillips.
And may we who love the Jewish people and the

God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob do all that we
can and more (with God's enabling) to help and
protect the Jews from those who wish them all
dead.
-+-+-+-
I suppose now that those who hate Geert

Wilders for his views regarding the Koran to
Mein Kamp will be offended at me for fearing
that - and saying that - we may have to all be
hiding Jews in our back rooms. I can't help
myself from fearing this: it's just what I see
happening, and increasingly happening, all
around this world.
I hope there are many more Moslems who would

resist this threatening (and already happening)
war against the Jews as much as we all should.
I would appreciate them standing up and
opposing their brothers who are arming
themselves and breathing all these threats.
Now, if you please. Quickly.
If yours is really a religion of peace, then do

what you can to stop this war against the
Jewish people.
And against all the rest of us.
Any chance this won't be going down the rabbit

cynical poster hole of the Spectator, as does almost any other
posting which clearly states Islam's doctrines or
facts about Mohamed?
Doctrine of Abrogation explains why the violent

verses (and Suras) in the Koran take
precedence:
http://www.meforum.org/article/1754
Does Melanie Phillips agree with her former

John Edwards Spectator blog colleague Stephen Pollard,
current editor of the Jewish Chronicle that:
1) Lord Ahmed should apologise for hosting a
book launch by someone call Israel Shamir (who
apparently has anti-semitic view) and
presumably never repeat the invitation to visit the
House of Lords.
2) Lord Ahmed should lose the Labour whip
(Pollard phoned the Labour leadership in the
Lords to demand precisely that).
I think she (and Pollard for that matter) should

explain why the principle of free speech should
be applied differently to these two extremist
individual.
Also when does a protest outside Parliament
become "threats and intimidation"?
ChakDePhatte you posted how can Jewish and

Muchi Puji Christians ignore/change certain verses of their
scriptures? I think they modernise their religions
they don't change much, that is why they are
peaceful to woman and children, remember we
are living at the 21 century, I think the muslims
should modernize their believes as well, look
people like the Taliban and other exterimists
who are living like ancient times the way they
treat woman, it is not attractive, yes there are
extremist Jewish and Christian fundamentalists
etc, but you never see them going a pizza
restaurant and blowing themselves and others
up, Okay I know the Muslim religion can be a
peaceful one but unfortunately many young
people are not using that peace, it is like saying
I am a rich man but wearing dirty old clothes
Well it looks like you Brits just might have a

Greg in MN of USA backbone after all.
If this keeps up you folks actually might be able
to take your country back, Hmmm or am I
dreaming
Simon - I agree, Muslims, Christians and Jews

ChakDePhatte are all descendants of Abraham, the discoverer
of monotheism. I am not one for the state of
Israel to be wiped from the face of this earth. I
don’t care if that piece of land is called Israel or
not. People tend to have this misconception that
the Palestinians have an issue with Jewish
people. That is incorrect. They have an issue
with their land being forced from them and not
being relocated (a refugee camp does not
count). It just so happens that the people forcing
them off their own land are Jews. Were they not
all living peacefully until 1967 by which time the
state of Israel had encroached upon much of
Palestinian land? What was their reason for
doing so? They say that land is their right. but I
though Judaism was a progressive religion, and
if so then should they be taking scriptures from
thousands of years ago and applying them to
modern day living.
Muchi - if you read my posts properly, you will

understand that I myself have an issue with
fundamentalism in Islam. I’m not denying it's
there, if anything I am denouncing it and am all
for getting rid of all those that promote
fundamentalism. Suicide in Islam is forbidden,
and so is the harming of innocent people.
Therefore a suicide bomber in the name of Islam
is a contradiction in terms. The word Islam itself
is derived from the Arabic for Peace. It annoys
me when people kill in the name of religion. War
is sometimes inevitable but even then if you take
Muslims who fight then they must adhere to the
rules of War that have been prescribed. You
imply that women and children are not at peace
in Islam. You might say that because of women
covering their faces in public. Then maybe I
should make clear that the covering of the face
is not a religious act, it is a cultural one. Islam
only requires women to cover their hair and to
wear loose fitting garments, so as to not attract
attention to the female body. They are allowed
to and are promoted to go to school and even to
work. The Dean of Islamic Jurisprudence at the
Al-Azhar University in Cairo is in fact a woman.
There are many high ranking Muslim women.
My cousin who is a Muslim is an MP in London.
The fact that certain cultures have been followed
and people have not argues why certain things
are done which are contradictory to their religion
is an issue. People are confusing their culture
(which in many cases is un-Islamic) with their
religion.
We need more home grown (UK) imams. Ones

that understand the culture we live in and can
direct young Muslims in the right way. How to
co-operate with each other and live in harmony.
When you have Muslims living in a foreign land,
then Islam itself tells you to follow the local
rules, as generally most laws are based on the
same principles. You must learn to cooperate
with each other and live in peace, to not oppress
the other etc. it's not complicated. To be a good
Muslim you really only need be a "good" person
- don’t oppress, don’t hurt anyone’s feelings,
help others, be charitable etc. but if only we
could get these points across in the media.
Unfortunately they are too busy scaremongering
the public as that is what is going to get them
their ratings.
Finally a bit about the Jewish state of Israel -

would someone like to explain this paragraph to
me which is taken from the Declaration of
Establishment of State of Israel, Tel-Aviv 1948.
" THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for
Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the
Exiles; it will foster the development of the
country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will
be based on freedom, justice and peace as
envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure
complete equality of social and political rights to
all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or
sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion,
conscience, language, education and culture; it
will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions;
and it will be faithful to the principles of the
Charter of the United Nations".
(http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Declaration+of+Establishment+of+
Faithful to the principles of the charter of the UN
– someone remind me again how many UN
resolutions Israel is floundering?
ChakDePhatte: "...many English people would

Alexandrovich see these jobs as "below them" and therefore
refuse to do them."
No. The British have fought for hundreds of years

for the dignity of a fair day's pay for a fair day's
work.
And then third-worlders come along and do the

jobs for peanuts. The British don't mind getting
their hands dirty but they don't like working in
sweatshops either, receiving less than the
minimum wage and the indignity which goes
with it.
The first thing I did, when circumstance landed

me in this wonderful country, was to learn its
history.
Greg in MN of USA - we definitely have more of

ChakDePhatte a backbone than the Americans!
ChakDePhat...I was referring to the lengths of

Dixon the books, not the verses. The last book, Surah
114 An-Nas ( Mankind ) has only one paragraph
comprising a list of six statements.
Meanwhile, I dont refer to the Torah because I

was addressing spurious paralells with the
Bible. The Torah I cannot speak of but nor was it
the topic under duscussion.
To say the Quoran and Old Testament are alike

because they are both the Word of God is not
correct. They are both the word of men
pretending to speak for God and as the word of
men they are alike in those terms only in so far
as ALL texts are the word of men!
As for the Quoran having been memorised from

the word of Gabriel or Gebreel and then dictated
some decades later, this was still a dictation by
Mohammed and therefore in his lifetime. Before
there was a written form of Arabic, as you
yourself concede. So it must have been
transcribed by the person taking the dictation
into one of those other languages of the region.
Hence my point that the Arabic Quoran is as
much a translation as the Abdulluh Yusuf Ali
English version that I have.
Sarah
Conservative Cabbie
"Quoting the Old Testament is such a canard"
If that's the case, why do so many Christians

believe in the creation of Genesis and Moses'
ten commandments. Isn't the word of God
applicable regardless of whether it is old or new
testament.
I'm not seeking to rubbish Christianity, just

making the point the religious texts can be
selectively interpreted as Wilders did with Fitna.
ChakDePhatte- Fundamentalists in all religions

Augustus there may be - Christian monks in closed order,
sworn to poverty, self-denial, chastity,
obedience - these are fundamentalists. Ascetics
exist in all religions, but they do no advocate
indiscriminate mass murder of men, women and
children. That is the key. Judge all religions and
sects by that and you will see that a wish to
return to the basic teachings is not terrorism, for
in no religion, including Islam,
do the basic teachings advocate mass murder.
So what are the jihadists of today if they are not

fundamentalists? Even 'jihad' is the wrong word.
Of course jihad exists, but it had rules. Either it
is a personal struggle with oneself to become a
better Muslim, in which case it is non-
aggressive. Or it means true holy war. Armed
struggle in defence of Islam. that's what the
terrorists claim they are about. But they choose
to airbrush the rules out of the text. For one
thing, jihad can only be declared by a legitimate
Koranic authority of proven and accepted repute.
Bin Laden and all his acolytes are notorious for
their lack of scholarship. Even if the West had
indeed humiliated, hurt, or demeaned Islam, and
thus all Muslims, there are still specific rules,
and the Koran is clear on these: "It is forbidden
to attack and kill those who have offered no
offence and done nothing to hurt you. It is
forbidden to kill women and children. It is
forbidden to take hostages. And it is forbidden to
mistreat, torture, or kill prisoners."
The terrorists and their followers do all four on a
regular basis. And let us not forget that they
have killed far more Muslims than Christians or
Jews. The planters of bombs in trains, buses,
and shopping malls are not going back to the
basics of Islam. They are writing their own
script, then arguing retroactively, seeking to find
Koranic passages to justify their war. That is the
falsehood of their onslaught on the West. That is
what Fitna and the message from Wilders
should be about.
ChakDePhatte: "People tend to have this

KateA misconception that the Palestinians have an
issue with Jewish people. That is incorrect. They
have an issue with their land being forced from
them and not being relocated (a refugee camp
does not count). It just so happens that the
people forcing them off their own land are Jews."
------------------------------------------------
This is taqiyya (double-speak). We know of the

Jew-hatred taught to Palestinian children in
school and on television; we know of the
injunctions of Muslim clerics to kill Jews; we
have read the Charter of Hamas and much,
much more.
Historically you are also incorrect. No such

thing as a Palestinian nation existed before
1967. No land of Palestine belonging to Arabs is
recorded on any map of the area which was a
province of Turkey for 400 years. The Turks had
little regard for their Muslim (Arab) 'brothers'.
Go to the official Jordan web site. There you will

find that the land bought by the Zionists
belonged to Ottoman absentee landlords.
You will find descriptions of that land which

correlate to British government documents of the
Mandate describing it as 'wasteland'. You will
find on the Jordan website details of 400 years
of Ottoman (Turk) rule. Of a transient Arab
population; of villages that were deserted as the
Arabs moved on.
You will find that 70% of the territory mandated
to the British was given to the Arabs
(Hashamites). You will find that the remaining
30% was divided by UN resolution between the
remaining Arabs and Jews.
The Jews accepted their portion. The Arabs

refused theirs and attacked the new state of
Israel.
The migration of Arabs into the British Mandate,

from Syria, Egypt et al, came about through the
hard labour of the Zionists. In transforming the
desert, that wasteland left by Arabs and Turks,
they offered work and economic advantage to
poverty-stricken Arabs.
Do, at least, check the historical facts from an

impartial source e.g. British Mandate
documents, or even Arab documents of the
period, before presenting your partisan opinion
as fact.
Dixon
Conservative Cabbie
I'm thinking perfectly independently on this
point. I am not being an apologist for The
Quoran, nor for radical Islam, nor for Lord
Ahmed who has behaved despicably. I'm not
having a go at Christianity nor am I trying to
draw equivalencies between the two books. All I
am trying to point out, obviously poorly, is that
selective interpretations of religious texts do not
provide a valuable insight into a faith, whether it
be Islam or Christianity. My memory of Fitna is
that it selects certain texts from the Quoran
which exhort it's readers to commit violence.
Now I'm no expert on the book, have never read
it and am perfectly willing to be contradicted, but
I am sure that the complete text of the Quoran
is not a call to violence. I am sure there are "love
thy neighbour" equivalents in there to. If that is
the case, Geert Wilders has been somewhat
selective in his film.
"blow by blow set of prescriptions"
Hang on, Aren't the Ten Commandments quite

literally a "blow by blow set of prescriptions"?
And what about Genesis? Millions of Christians
believe that to be historical accuracy. "An eye
for an eye..." is also taken as gospel (if you
pardon the expression) as well. The Old
Testament can't be relied on as a legitimate
source one moment, and then rejected when it
is not convenient because no-one likes what
certain parts of it say.
Hopefully I've made myself a little clearer.
KateA..11:17pm....very well said!! So few people

Original Tony know the history of Israel that it beggars belief!!
Dixon - believe what you may about the texts

ChakDePhatte being the word of man or the word of god, but
there is no denying that the basics of all holy
scriptures are the same and promote love and
peace. dependant on your interpretation they
also all promote violence. i have never said that
one should only read the Qur'an in arabic. all i
want is for people to read a translation of the
Qur'an that isn't written by a fundamentalist.
Augustus - i fully agree. No religion can promote

violence, and for those to promote violence in
the name of a religion is incorrect. they are
nothing more than mere terrorists; and a terrorist
can not be affiliated to a religion. Jihad is the
incorrect term for what Bin Laden etc. are doing.
KateA - agreed, i should have done a little more

research from even more a variety of sources;
and i shall do that now. you mention the hatred
against jews taught in schools in Palestine.
when these people have been oppressed for so
long, it automatically brings about a certain
amount of hatred. you get this in schools in
Cyprus - there is widespread hatred for the
Turkish there. no it shouldnt be taught in
schools, it shouldnt be taught anywhere, but
continuing the oppression doesnt help alleviate
the spread of this hatred. if anything, it shoud be
as Augustus mentioned, a Jihad against
oneself, for not agreeing to accept or spread this
hatred.
Conservative Cabbie - with you there 100%
also can someone come back to me on my last

paragraph, regarding the Declaration of
Establishment of State of Israel and Israel's
promise to be faithful to all UN Charters etc.
To Conservative Cabbie:
Conservative
Pedestrian
Doctrine of Abrogation in Islam (Naskh). There
are 4 passages in the Koran that explain it.
To put it as simply as possible:
Those Suras (Chapters) and Verses which were

recorded later are the ones which take
superiority over earlier ones. It all comes down
to expediency: Mohamed didn't write anything,
the Koran states he was illiterate. He was a
warlord for the last 9 years of his life, that's how,
and why, Islam spread as an ideology, it made
him ruler of Arabia and his tribe the wealthiest
(all those captives, land and riches taken in
battle).
A Moslem will quote to you Sura 2.256 "Let

there be no compulsion in religion" which
sounds tolerant, but that Verse, and literally
many hundreds of others in the Koran, were
abrogated by the Sword Verse (9.5) and others
throughout Sura 9 and 8 (considered the last
recorded in the Koran, though, of course, not
seemingly so by numerical ordering). These
later verses call for the forced conversion,
persecution in dhimmitude, or deaths of all non-
Moslems until Islam is the only belief in the
world.
Note to Peter Hoskins: Would you kindly put

this up, it's getting ridiculous to see how one
person's ignorance of Doctrine of Abrogation is
distorting the subject of this thread. Thank you.
ChakdePhatte - you say that Palestinian

Adam B. schools teach negative views of Jews because
they are "oppressed" - utter nonsense. I'm afraid
denigrating views of Jews in Islamic nations
predate the existence of Israel. Your
"explanation" sounds remarkably like an excuse
for outright Jew hatred. Again, you need to do
more research.
Conservative Cabbie doesn't understand that the

Roy Clements Law of Moses containing the "eye for an eye"
and stoning for adultery commandments came
to an end with the death of the Lord Jesus
Christ. He took it (the Law) away, "nailing it to
his cross." Religious Jews do not recognise the
Messiahship of Christ but the Christian doctrine
which is the result of his teaching and that of the
apostles contains no such prescriptions.
Conservative Cabbie. I know you are not an

Dixon apologist for anyone mate. I was merely
suggesting that on this spurious paralell
between the Bible and Quoran you had fallen
foul of one of the mis-directions that the
conjurors of moral relativism use to deceive us.
Im surprised that you havent read the Quoran.

Get one. You really HAVE to! Lets be frank,
most of it is a very boring list of assertions about
the world and rules for life. Indeed, it reads like a
blessed instruction manual for a Korean TV set!
But then there are the amazing bits! A good

percentage of the book is taken up with
describing the horrors of damnation. The bit that
really sticks in your mind for a long time is the
recurring lovingly exact description of being
forced to drink molten brass! This pops up
repeatedly
In fact, the book is such a terrifying string of

spine-chilling threats and menaces that I was
about ready to give up and become a Muslim by
about a third of the way through!
It is no wonder that unsophisticated, uneducated

people in remote places fed this stuff from birth
become the fanatically obsessed people they
are! It is TERRIFYING!
Equally instructive is the recurring description of

paradise as rolling green lawns with a river
running through it. Exactly what you would think
of as "heaven" if you grew up in a desert!
This is an interesting illustration of how the Q

unwittingly reflects it specificality to a particular
place and time!
ChakDePhatte
Dixon February 5th, 2009 12:07pm
Dixon - believe what you may about the texts
being the word of man or the word of god, but
there is no denying that the basics of all holy
scriptures are the same and promote love and
peace. dependant on your interpretation they
also all promote violence. i have never said that
one should only read the Qur'an in arabic. all i
want is for people to read a translation of the
Qur'an that isn't written by a fundamentalist."
My observation was not directed at you. But

OTHER folks DO make that assertion ( that the
English translation is not valid ).
As for the Love and Peace assertion...I dont see

it. ANYWHERE in ANY religion. ALL religions
seem quite manifestly about pain and
oppression. That said, from what ive seen of it,
maybe Hinduism is an exception. Oh, what
about Kali and Thugee?
westerners like to think Buddhism is all

sweetness and light. But imagine you are a poor
Tibetan whose only hope of getting a sone
educated is to give him for life to a brainwashing
facility ( ahem , monastery ) which then you
must forever donate a chunk of the meagre yield
of your daily toil?
Buddhism REALLY IS oppression!
Please point out to me a an established old

religion that actually endorses pleasure?
Dixon
Conservative Cabbie
"you had fallen foul of one of the mis-directions
that the conjurors of moral relativism"
I agree with you about the evils of moral

relativism. I like to judge people by the content
of their character and their actions, not by the
books they read.
While I'm all for increasing my education, I'm

probably going to be sticking with my political
books and avoid religious texts, it's getting me
in to too much hot water.
"ye shall stone them with stones that they die"

Byron in Wahroonga
Dang. Saddened to find you're a militant atheist,
CC. Just by the way, Christ revoked Mosaic law
during the 'let him cast the first stone' incident.
But keep trolling through Leviticus and

Deuteronomy if it enhances your sense of self-
worth.
As a very amazed New Zealander and not being

Joan at all versed with the UK Parliament, please
would some kind person inform me how Ahmed
became a 'Lord' and after such a wicked
mistake, how you get rid of him.
People interested in the activities of Lord Ahmed

Linda Smith may be interested in a Jewish Chronicle article
"Muslim Peer in 'Student War' Slur" dated
February 5: "Muslim peer has claimed that
student societies are recruiting young British
Jews to join the Israeli army. They fought, he
said, in last month's Gaza conflict and should
be prosecuted for war crimes on their return to
this country........The Union of Jewish Students
said the peer's allegations were part of a
'continued campaign' against British Jewis
organisations..........The House of Lords Whips
Office said it was unlikely action would be taken
against Lord Ahmed following his comments."
You may also be interested to know that the

House of Lords is debating Gaza today, 6 Feb.
Joan
stanley Jerusalem February 6th, 2009 3:56am
Well the vindictive and anti-semitic
establishment here managed to strip old Sir
Jack Lyons of his knighthood after the Guinness
Affair but who would dare touch our sacred
Muslim peer?
in wilders film, fitna, he

pete ferguson
1. quotes from the koran
2. shows muslim clerics quoting the koran
3. shows muslims carrying out these teachings
if lord ahmed is so concerned and offended why

does he not mobalise against these imans and
terrorists saying and acting on the same things
wilders quotes.
Why on earth is a Pakistani Muslim who has

martin welcomed appalling Jew haters into our
parliament, in the Lords ?
I know of no great achievements by Mr Ahmed,

that have brought benefits to our country.
Intimidation seems to be now operating in a far

Herbert Thornton bigger forum than the House of Lords - access
on the Internet to the video "What The West
Needs To Know" has just become blocked.
Peter Hoskins: Please put this up asap:

American Non-Dhimmi
Anyone wishing to view FITNA or WHAT THE
WEST NEEDS TO KNOW:
go to
www.jihadwatch.org
On the home page, left hand side, scrolling
down, click on either FITNA or WHAT THE
WEST NEEDS TO KNOW logos and it will take
you to screening (click on smaller pictures,
Bush, Blair, et all, to see it in English in
installments if main screen doesn't work).
Will you welcome Iranian President in the House

Atiq Malik of Lords if invited by Lord Ahmed to speak on
holocaust?
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?
fiona ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak
this is Wafa Fatmi in the states just demolishing

the rationales given for radical islam. she's a
female, muslim psychologist and desrves a
nobel prize for common sense and a 24 hour
security detail for life (which sh'ell need afte this,
unfortunately). What is a glimmer of hope is that
this clip is from Al Jazeera tv!
Melanie is cooking up another toxic brew for the

Osman masses. We know the BBC has been taken
over by the Isreali government, Will Melanie rant
about that serious issue.
Melanie is quite right in her article about this
Observer very serious issue. I would encourage those who
are concerned about the threat to our
democratic freedoms to obtain a copy of the
DVD 'Islam: What The West Needs to Know'
available from
http://www.whatthewestneedstoknow.com/index.asp
Byron
Conservative Cabbie
Actually I trolled through Google.
You obviously haven't read all my posts or you

would realise that I am neither militant nor
atheist nor all that bothered about the
relationship between Old and New Testament. I
used a quote to make a point - that selective
textual interpretations of religious texts should
not be used to judge a religion. I said to Dixon
earlier, that I judge people by their actions not
their faith. Well considering the knee-jerk
reaction of a number of Christians in this thread,
my infinite respect for them is becoming a damn
sight less infinite.
Conservative Cabbie: I've read all your posts and

Conservative I've also noticed that you appear to have ignored
Pedestrian my specific comment (and the other more
generalised ones of other commenters) drawing
your attention to the Doctrine of Abrogation in
Islam by which the later verses take precedence
and this approach, for the past millenia and one
half, has been the accepted one among Moslem
theologians and all schools of islamic
jurisprudence. Do try reading a link which
contains the information, instead of banging on
with your outworn nonsense about 'selective
textual interpretations.'
http://www.meforum.org/article/1754
It's entitled Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam.

It also deals with the concept of defensive and
offensive warfare from the Moslem perspective.
Osman, in your post (Feb 6th at 9:10pm), apart

Al Rassooli, author of from spelling “Israeli” incorrectly, you make the
the book “Lifting the extraordinary claim that “We know the BBC has
Veil: The True Faces of been taken over by the Isreali (sic) government”.
Muhammad and Islam” Let’s ignore the question of whom you mean by
“we”; perhaps you are a member of some cult or
secret society but obviously that’s your
business.
The fact remains (even though disputed by a few

people) that the BBC has been demonstrably
anti-Israeli (and generally pro-Islam) for quite
some time now. If there were the slightest truth
in your bizarre claim that the Israeli Government
had somehow “taken over” the BBC can you
then explain exactly why they should
consistently chose to quickly report anti-Israeli
rumours but then fail to ever mention those news
stories when the truer, normally strongly pro-
Israeli, facts subsequently emerge?
(Incidentally, in case you think me biased I’d

like to point out I was born in Iraq, currently live
in Europe and have never been an Israel myself).
As for your attempted slight of Melanie (whom I

greatly admire) asking if she will “rant about that
serious issue” I think she has already given you
the answer in a number of her recent articles on
subjects relating to the BBC in connection with
Israel, for example
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/debatesearch/article
-1127433/MELANIE-PHILLIPS-The-BBC-won-
8217-t-Gaza-appeal-protect-impartiality-But-
viewers-really-believe-impartial.html (please
forgive the rather long link, but I recommend you
try cutting and pasting it into your browser and
reading what she wrote).
Kind Regards,
Al Rassooli.
CP
Conservative Cabbie
"instead of banging on with your outworn
nonsense about 'selective textual
interpretations.'
I wouldn't need too if it wasn't for certain

pedestrian commentators (if you pardon the
pun).
A study of the Qur'an is not something I'm

particularly interested in, but as you were kind
enough to provide the link, I followed it. Look
what I found as the conclusion: "it is crucial for
non-Muslims and moderate Muslims alike to
recognize that interpretation of Islamic doctrine
can have two faces, and that the Medinan face
may very well continue to overshadow the
Meccan face for a major portion, if not the
majority, of contemporary Muslims." Sorry to
"bang on about it" but is that not "selective
interpretation"?
I made a point, loads of people had a go at me

about it which is fine, they're entitled, but I'm
quite happy with the point I made. If you want to
get shirty, feel free but I'm done with this subject
now. Melanie's made a post about Obama and
that's more in my ballpark, so I'm off to read
that. Good day, and I hope to enjoy further
discussions on points not related to Islam.
I'm sorry, I didn't reply to your original post, I

only get an hour or two a day to follow all the
blogs that I do. Not enough time for everything.
I'VE POSTED MY VIEWS ON THIS BLOG ON

ShakirQureshi 08-02-09. IT'S NOT THERE YET.
IS THERE ANY THING WRONG IN MY
VIEWS?
PLEASE ANSWER.
"The archbishop of Mecca just opened the fifth

Marc largest cathedral of the town. The archbishop,
who used to be prime-minister of the country,
formerly known as a muslimstronghold, urged
christians to respect what's left of what once
was a 'great' culture".
Another "victory for the Muslim community"

Jan-Kees Holland Dhimmitude rules once again.
Wilders won't be allowed into the UK.

Shame on you!
www.apostatesofislam.com
Namaste
check that site, but beware... realistic movies,
you will notice that Fitna is just 15 minutes of
Horror that you can switch on and off as you
like, but for other people that horror will last their
whole live...generation after generation. I am in
shock that England, when it finally shows her
pale old Face, it is a Dhimmy face...shame on
you scared people...no guts at all...who goes
around with dogs, will end up with fleas, and
even though that may sound nasty, it's
absolutely nothing compared for bowing out of
fear for muslims...
We shall go on to the end. We shall give up our

Rowy fight in Europe and on the seas and oceans; we
shall surrender with growing confidence and
growing belief in our enemy. We shall surrender
our island whatever the cost may be; we shall
surrender on beaches, grounds, in fields, in
streets and on the hills. We shall surrender and
even if this island or a large part of it is
subjugated and starving, then our former empire
beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the
belief in their God, will carry on the struggle until
in His good time the Old World with all its
diminished power and might, stops knowing
what freedom is.
Great Britain is completely lost in the cesspool

The Flying Dutchman of islamic and leftist bigotry and political
correctness.
Your island was once the only European country

free of nazi occupation, now it seems you are
going to be the first of all European countries to
be occupied and ruled by Moslems.
Good job - but not really -.
Unbelievable. Even our most left-wing politicians

William Frisyan (groen Links (= Green Left) are defending our
freedom of free speech and are amazed about
the cowardice of the English.
Maybe our two worlds are to far apart.
One is going Islam and seems to like it, the
other on is trying with all it's might to stop the
tide.
Freedom is a word you can no longer use in this
once proud nation with the oldest democracy of
the world.
And the BBC is silent.
As always.
In Holland this is (fromt left to right) the most
important issue (and the crisic of course) but
you are still in a swamp of political correctness)
Wouldn't the best thing be to simply scrap ALL

Keith these wretched 'monotheistic' religions? At least
you don't get all this rubbish with polytheism.
The question is not religion but our common

Ed enemy, that wants to dominate and take away
our real freedom. Freedom of worship and to
serve God for true believers without intimidating
others. These people want to control the world
by using your cherished values and your
ignorance against you. All God fearing people
must expose their deceits and evil. Any religion
or ideology that promotes the destruction of
others for you to gain ground must not be
tolerated. We must expose their true face and
not dance with them. No fear in doing this. Truth
and love for mankind must prevail over such
mindsets. No one should be allowed to hide
under their position of influence to promote
contrary, destructive and divisive ideas.
Has the Holocaust really been taken out of

Stelwagen British schoolbooks?
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Melanie CAPPUCCINO CULTURE

This kind of Muslim politicians like Lord Ahmed

Melanie says, quite correctly of course, that this

Melanie, an ideal time to raise the profile of

It's a bit rich for Wilders to be concerned about

(incidentally, I am a supporter of free speech, so

Would this be the same Lord Ahmed who invited

JJS, "The idea that precisely by sitting by we

Ros Morris 11.04 am...you say you have a friend

Frankly, Geert Wilders makes for a very poor

I have seen Fitna. It doesn't show or say

Come on Britian, enough is enough! I just

Just so we can all keep count, how many

Is this the same Lord Ahmed,a convicted drunk

Incredible. Related, HM Gov are hiding behind

Am interested to know what M thinks of all this?

Well I've been part of a group of thousands

Who (re)invited Wilders to the HoL? I would like

Ahmed is a hypocrite. He invited a known and

I care little what this film or its maker are but I

The main stream media have not touched this

The 'never' elected Ahmed is exposed.

The main purpose of Fitna is to show that the

The Bible will tell you to stone adulterers whilst

@Original Tony. I'm only saying what my friend

Good point Ros, but you wont hear any

There is a reason why Wilders brought up the

We should keep our fingers crossed that Lord

People should monitor the courts to see its

Conservative cabbie. 1:59pm

1689 Bill of Rights (Artcile 9)

So this right was enshrines way before the

Hopefully the film will be screened without fear

My concern is that a Lord of the Realm - i.e. the

He does very little to promote a)freedom of

Why does Lord Ahmed think the sight of 10,000

The only 'victory; I can envisage is for the young

I would be less concerned if Lord Ahmed had

The member issuing the invitation wasn't

Geoff - although I take your point about Wilder's

Freedom of speech, and what it's limits are, has

Bill M. It appears you are the one who needs

I'm sure there's a "love thy neighbour" in the

Democracy and free speech at woek -

The main difference is that Jews and Christians

If 10 000 Muslims do turn up then the whole

PERHAPS- THE COUNTRYSIDE ALLIANCE

Conservative Cabbie: maybe you've been stuck

Jesus Christ to the Jews who intended to carry

Commit it to memory. Repeat it to any Muslim

Is Wilders turning towards fascists for help,

However, he will be posting a story tomorrow

Jews and Muslims. Both are Semites. Learn to

Geert Wilder's Fitna is only repeating the words