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Farhan Javed
Active Contributor

2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

04/10/2013 1:14 AM

Join Date: Jan 2012

Posts: 16

Hi everyone,
We have a 2000 KVA Dyn-11 Transformer at our site and it is earther from two earth pits one for
neutral and for body. We have recently observed that there is a leakage of 24 A from transformer
body. I just want to know whether it is normal or not?
Moreover, could it have any effect on Electronic Protection Relay installed on the upstream of
transformer (HT Panel) as we are often finding our Main VCB of HT panel tripped showing IE>>
during transformer excitation (start-up). We are using Siemens' 7SJ602 protection relay. Any
suggestion/comment would be appreciated.
Regards
Farhan Javed

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#1 "Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A" by Tornado on 04/10/2013 2:45 AM (score 2)

#2 "Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A" by PWSlack on 04/10/2013 3:38 AM (score 3)

#8 "Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A" by leveles on 04/10/2013 11:38 PM (score 3)

#20 "Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A" by eugene344 on 04/12/2013 2:14 AM (score 2)

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#7 "Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A" by eugene344 on 04/10/2013 10:39 PM (score 1)

Tornado
#1

Guru

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

04/10/2013 2:45 AM

The phase-to-ground voltage is probably at least 220 for this transformer. If so, 24A x 220V
5.3KW (and maybe more). That's a lot of energy leakage, and certainly not normal. If you are
lucky, it may be something as simple as a loose wire strand, or insulation damage somewhere. In
any event, prompt investigation and correction are essential. Good luck in tracking this down
quickly and safely.
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PWSlack
#2

Guru

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

04/10/2013 3:38 AM

Look for connections and crosses between the neutral conductor and the ground/earth conductor

at alldistribution boxes downstream, and eliminate them. This is an important safety issue, so do it
before someone disconnects one of those conductors thinking all is well, and gets an armful of volts
for the trouble. Do it today/now/immediately/without delay either.
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JCase
#15
In reply to #2

Power-User

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

04/11/2013 7:39 AM

I agree with PW.

Join Date: Jul 2007

To answer the OP question (again). NO! It is not at all normal! Get working to fix it right now!
Follow PW's guidance, as it is good.

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sainath sastry
#3

Member

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

Join Date: Feb 2013

Posts: 7

04/10/2013 9:28 AM

certainly it is more current. make independent neutral earthing with 50X6 mm GI flat, at the
same time with Body also. transformer earthing should not connect with grid earthing, check
tap operations, may be relay triping on instantaneous current. check settings, commonly
megger values, you may found something if you open inspection top cover...like opened
winding, etc, carbonised oil.
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electricalexpert65
#4

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Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

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Good Answers: 164

04/10/2013 9:29 AM

24A earth leakage current is very dangerous. Indicates some insulation deterioration. Pl.
investigate & rectify immediately.
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North of 60
#5

Guru

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

04/10/2013 9:41 AM

Are you saying that the grounding conductor that connects the metal tank/case of this
transformer to your earth pit sees a current flow of 24 amps? If so, have you tried to
measure the voltage across the circuit between the tank and the earth pit?
Join Date: Mar 2007

What happens to this current flow when you unload the transformer? Open its downstream

breaker and see what the current flow is.

Does the transformer have powered cooling fans mounted on it? If so... check them very
carefully.
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cuba_pete
#6

Guru

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

04/10/2013 11:04 AM

From transformer body to where...to neutral, to earth, phase (heaven forbid)?

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What is the reference?

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eugene344
#7

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Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

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Good Answers: 4

04/10/2013 10:39 PM

1. PWSLACK has given some guidance on the 24A leakage current. However if the current persists
when the LV side is disconnected, you may have a HV fault and this needs to be resolved quickly.
With the transformer isolated from supply (HV and LV) check insulation resistance HV to Tank, LV

to Tank and HV to LV. Check the arrangement of the HV system neutral earthing.
2. The tripping on energising is possibly due to inrush current. ((I>> is usually instantaneous and
thus will operate if the inrush is greater than the setting) This can be up to 6 times full load
current, and may not be balanced. Review the protection settings to ensure that instantaneous
(I>>) settings take account of inrush current.
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leveles
#8

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Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

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04/10/2013 11:38 PM

Let me put my cynical fly into the ointment, so to speak.

Is that measured current ohmic or capacitive?
What is the harmonic content, as measured with an oscilloscope?
I do not believe for a moment, that a 5 kWatts real leak can occur,
without loud and obvious signs.
On the other hand, say, a 100kHz capacitive coupling can do that
comfortably. And you will not be any wiser, until actually measuring
it. So, get on with it!

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IQ
#9

Guru

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

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Good Answers: 12

04/11/2013 2:55 AM

Is it from the transformer or from your MV cables, (earth leakage and cirrcualting earth
faults)? Did you disconnect the cables and measure the amps?
Also, it is time people defined their voltage ratrher than telling us HT. 11, 22, 33, 66kV, is
NOT HT. If you place the correct information here, people can assist you better. i.e voltage,
cable type, etc. Cheers.
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electricalexpert65
#10
In reply to #9

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Posts: 2015

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

04/11/2013 3:25 AM

Good Answers: 164

I am surprised! What are you talking? If 11, 22, 33, 66kV are NOT HT, then what are they?
Are they LT?
Reference is drawn to IEC 60038, wherein it is mentioned that LV is less than 1kV, HV Range
'A' is above 1kV but less than or equal to 245kV and HV Range 'B' is above 245kV.
And, just in case you don't know, LV is Low Voltage & HV is High Voltage.

Pl. do not post incorrect statements.

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tcmtech
#11
In reply to #10

Guru

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

04/11/2013 3:36 AM

He never claimed he was High IQ. Just IQ.

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HiTekRedNek
#12
In reply to #10

Guru

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

04/11/2013 5:42 AM

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Location:
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As in real estate,location is everything.In power transmission, above 35Kv is

considered High Voltage.
The IEC defines High Voltage as above 1000Volts for AC and above 1500 volts
for DC.

Posts: 2234

The NEC defines it as any voltage above 600 volts AC,and British Standard has

it's variance from these definitions also.

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IQ
#13
In reply to #10

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Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

04/11/2013 5:44 AM

Good Answers: 12

Rather than show ignorance here, IEC 60038 is for Standard Voltages. It does not state
what is MV, HV or EHV. So dipstick, for your education it works as such.
1kv to 132kV Distribution voltage. which covers MV and HV. 11kV is MV, 132kV - 400kV is
HV, 500kV and above is EHV and super EHV. 1MV is operational in China. Know you
voltages.
Electronic Protection Relay installed on the upstream of transformer (HT Panel) As
quoted, HT panel?Rather state a voltage then folks know and can help.
God help you on a transmission line or sub station. But to answer the lads concern,
it could be coming from the Tfx or more likely the cable and if this was oil filled cables,
there is an earth issue on a cable. If this is XLPE cable it can be the termination, the cable
screen, the cable core holed and the semi con leaking into the screen. It could even be a
joint breaking down, if there is a joint in the cable. The far side earth protection should
have tripped, if the cable is faulted to that side. If it is closer to the near side breaker the
fault will not be seen by the relays. And this depends on earthing of the cables. So in your
jest, you should perhaps keep quite as there are people who don't waste time with 17th
edition as it has no value in 132kV systems. Wipe the shit from your eyes and learn for a
change. And I guarantee this is a MV cable fault and very close the to the termination. It
just makes it easier when one knows a voltage, rather than assumed terminology. But

then if this is NOT your field, then tolerating fools and horses is hard work for us F'wits.
Read Note 3, page 10, IEC 60038 Ed 6.2, 2002-07.

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electricalexpert65
#17
In reply to #13

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Posts: 2015

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

04/11/2013 10:29 AM

Good Answers: 164

Voltage levels have been defined and classified by various National and
International Standards as also by certain electric power utility companies. The
following are the definitions given in various Indian & International Standards
for AC Voltages.
******
India: As per the Indian Electricity Rules, 1956, vide Rule 2(av), the following
are the limits:
Low Voltage: Not exceeding 250V
Medium Voltage: Not exceeding 650V
High Voltage: Not exceeding 33000V
Extra High Voltage: Exceeding 33000V
******

But, in IS 13234 - 1992, which is the "Guide for short-circuit current calculation
in Three-phase A.C. Systems" - it is mentioned vide Table I that:
Low Voltage: 100V to 1000V
Medium Voltage: > 1kV to 35kV
High Voltage: > 35kV to 230kV
As can be seen from the above, there is no harmony between the IS and the IE
Rules in this issue.
******
France: Vide a publication dated 14th November 1998, the French Regulations
define three voltage levels as below:
Low Voltage: < 1kV
High Voltage A (HTA): > 1kV but </= 50kV
High Voltage B (HTB): > 50kV
******
CENELEC (The European Electrotechnical Standardisation Committee): Vide a
publication dated 27th July 1992, the CENELEC recognises the following voltage
levels:
Low Voltage: < 1kV
Medium Voltage: > 1kV but </= 35kV
High Voltage: > 35kV
******
IEC (International Electrotechnical Commission): In IEC 60071, the following

ranges are defined:

Low Voltage: < 1kV
High Voltage Range I: > 1kV but </= 245kV
High Voltage Range II: > 245kV
The acronyms EHV (Extra High Voltage) and UHV (Ultra High Voltage), though
are being used elaborately in India, have never been officially defined in any of
the above three standards.
USA:
i) Vide IEEE Std. 241-1990 (IEEE Recommended Practice for Electric Power
Systems in Commercial Buildings), Clause 3.1.1.2,
Low Voltage: A class of nominal system voltages 1000V or less
Medium Voltage: A class of nominal system voltages greater than 1000V and less
than 100000V
High Voltage: A class of nominal system voltages equal to or greater than
100000V or less than 230000V
******
ii) Vide ANSI C84.1-1989 (Voltage ratings for electric power systems and
equipment),
Low Voltage: 120V to 600V
Medium Voltage: 2400V to 69000V
High Voltage: 115000V to 230000V
******

iii) Vide ANSI C92.2-1987 (Power Systems - Alternating Current Electrical

Systems and Equipment Operating at Voltages above 230kV Nominal - Preferred
Voltage Ratings)
Extra High Voltage: 345000V to 785000V
Ultra High Voltage: 1100000V
******
Note: IEEE - Institution of Electrical and Electronic Engineers
ANSI - American National Standards Institute
******
As can be seen from the above, there is no clear cut demarcation for
classification of various voltage levels in AC Electric Power Transmission and
Distribution. Also, there is no single standard across the globe, with various
countries defining various limits for these voltages. And, as in the case of India
and USA, even within one country, two standards do not match, when it comes
to these limitations. It is wished that the electrical community across the globe
meets and takes a decision soon to bring harmony across the countries of the
world in standardizing the limits for various voltage classifications.
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Farhan Javed
#14

Active Contributor

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 16

04/11/2013 7:35 AM

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and sarcasm!!

First of all Trandformer incoming voltage is 11 KV we conducted all the test of transformer like HV
to LV Meggar, HV Meggar, LV Meggar, Cable Meggar, TTR, horn conditions and everything is fine.
We observed that the leakage is from our downstream network and is being observed at
transfromer body as both LT and Transofrmer share a common earth.
We removed entire plant load and then tried to reset the VCB but it tripped again!!
Transformer vendor has suggested that our protection CTs "5P20" might be entering into saturation
region and since we have set 0.0 sec delay on IE>> fault, VCB is being tripped instantly...
Interestingly after performing all transformer tests when we reset the VCB it did not tripped and
since yesterday it is working fine!!!
Regards,
Farhan Javed
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PWSlack
#16
In reply to #14

Guru

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

04/11/2013 9:06 AM

Did the 24A leak go away at the same time, though?

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juan J.
Isdray

#19
In reply to #14

Commentator

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

Join Date: Jan 2013

04/11/2013 4:15 PM

Posts: 70

Ok Farhan, everyone here has express their best opinion but far away from site, now take your
notebook and choice the better of each one because you are touching the problem.
Reference to the voltage designation, please check standard ANSI-84 1 -2006 despite voltage
designation now is not your top priority.
Good luck
Bye
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eugene344
#20
In reply to #14

Active Contributor

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Posts: 24

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

04/12/2013 2:14 AM

Good Answers: 4

If LV and HT earths are common, and there is no problem on HV side, the current is probably LV

neutral current which is finding parallel paths through neutral to earth connections. Check if the
LV neutral is connected to earth at the transformer and another place.
As for the HV VCB tripping. What is the CT ratio? Since the transformer is 2000kVA (primary
current 104amps), the CT primary is at least 100A. 5p20 will take 2000A before saturating. This
is not likely to be the reason for the VCB tripping on Ie>>.
Inrush current could be as high as 600A. However this level of current will not always happen as
it depends on the point in the cycle that the closing occurs. Sometimes the VCB will not trip, and
other times it will.
What is the current setting for the Ie>> function? You could put a short time delay (e.g. 0.2
seconds) or increase the current setting if it is too low. The Ie> function with appropriate time
setting should pick up low level earth faults
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leveles
#18

Guru

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

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Posts: 1756
Good Answers: 59

04/11/2013 12:10 PM

I find this thread an exercise in human obtuseness.

There is a 24Amps leak somewhere, supposedly.
There is no measurement presented, but somebody's say so.
Well, I do not believe so.
An approximately 5kWatts leakage is loud, cannot be hidden.
I asked for some measurements with independent instrumentation, like oscilloscope. The fellow

comes back with Meggering parts. By the way, it is Megger, not meggar. Who cares?
A relay trips for a reason, that is for sure. That is not sure at all, what the reason is. The relay not
tripping for a day for unknown reasons is not an achievement in my book.
Actual measurements, anyone. As in verifying, if the 24Amps is real in the first place, and its
nature, if it exist at all?!?
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nightshade
#21
In reply to #18

Associate

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

Join Date: Nov 2011

Posts: 48

08/11/2014 8:54 AM

Hi,
Leveles thank you for pointing out the tests. I have taken over maintenance of this particular
transformer after my predeccesor Farhan. I conducted the tests. Below are the results;
1) Unloaded LT, leakage current on earth : 16A
2) Unloaded LT, voltage on transformer body to earth busbar : 0V
3) Unloaded LT, voltage on neutral to earth : 0V
4) Unloaded LT, leakage current frequency : 150 Hz
5) Unloaded LT, leakage current THD : 250%
6) Unloaded LT, power quadrant 1, net power 0W, PF 1.00, tan 0.00
With LT on load the above values remain same except the frequency changes to 50Hz (our system

freq).
We do not have an oscilloscope on site, the THD values were noted from a power analyser we use
(PEL 100). An interesting observation here is that while the transformer neutral is earthed
seperately, the transformer body earth is common with the plant distribution ( body earth
connection made to a bus bar where multiple equipment and feeders have been earthed including a
generator neutral connection). I do not believe that the leakage is resulting from damage to
transformer or some neutral to phase cross over. I do not believe the current is ohmic (though the
1.0 PF seemed disturbing). What are your thoughts?
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HiTekRedNek
#22
In reply to #21

Guru

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

08/11/2014 10:39 AM

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location:
N44564001S44555812E15314192W15302699

A few questions need answering to satisfy my curiosity,and eliminate some

variables that may be obvious to some, but ambiguous to other:
Re: The generator you mentioned:Is it running while conducting the tests you
mentioned?

Posts: 2234
Good Answers: 100

Do you have a lot of Switch-mode power supplies in the plant;computers,UPS's

etc?
The fact that the current is a 3rd harmonic indicates such devices on premises
that are supplied by another source.
Even though the individual currents may be small, due to the nature of 3rd
harmonics,the currents are additive.

I suspect this may be the source of the current.

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nightshade
#23
In reply to #22

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Posts: 48

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

08/11/2014 11:56 PM

HiTek the answers to your queries are given below;

1) Is the generator running while test was conducted : Yes, Transformer primary
was also available, LT was unloaded. Load was on generator.
2) Yes there are significant SMPs installed at our plant. UPSes, computers and
DC power supplies.
3) Why would you say that the current is 3rd harmonic dominanat. Beacuse of
the frequency of 150Hz?
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HiTekRedNek
#24
In reply to #23

Guru

Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A

08/12/2014 1:08 AM

Yes,the 150hz frequency is the reason,presuming your system is 50hz.

Instead of going into possible remedies here, I can direct you to a good source to
help resolve your issues.
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Good Answers: 100

Link:http://www.hammondpowersolutions.com/files/HPS_article_Harmonics_Phas
eShifting.pdf
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#1 "Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A" by Tornado on 04/10/2013 2:45 AM (score 2)

#2 "Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A" by PWSlack on 04/10/2013 3:38 AM (score 3)

#8 "Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A" by leveles on 04/10/2013 11:38 PM (score 3)

#20 "Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A" by eugene344 on 04/12/2013 2:14 AM (score 2)

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#7 "Re: 2000 KVA Transformer - Body Leakage of 24 A" by eugene344 on 04/10/2013 10:39 PM (score 1)

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Users who posted comments:

cuba_pete (1); electricalexpert65 (3); eugene344 (2); Farhan Javed (1); HiTekRedNek (3); IQ (2); JCase (1); juan J.
Isdray (1);leveles (2); nightshade (2); North of 60 (1); PWSlack (2); sainath sastry (1); tcmtech (1); Tornado (1)

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