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Interview: Johann
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Dimension des
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CIGARETTE CARDS

15:40

NOTES ON DANCE
AND COPYRIGHT
INCOMPLETENESS
AS CHANCE
FILMINTERVIEW:
SHOW YOUR
LEGACY
JANE DUDLEY:
DANCE AS
PROPAGANDA

"I WAS WEIGH TO RADICAL FOR BONN"

Englishtranslationofthefilminterview
(Startpage)

JEFF FRIEDMAN: ON
ORAL HISTORY

AtalkwithJohannHansKresnik

STUDENTINNEN ZUM
TANZERBE

(Firsttitle)
ChoreographicbeginningsintheballetstudioatBhnenderStadtKln
(civictheatresinCologne)andatTheaterBremen(1967/68)
JK:ItwasaoneoffopportunitysomeassociationIthinkitwasa
womensassociationthatmoneygaveforyoungchoreographersduringthe
year.MarianneWick,theassistantofAurelvonMilodidit,wesoloiststook
partandthenatsomepointIsaid,IcanttakeitanymorethisDave
Brubeckmusicandfootballshangdownfromtheceiling.WhatamI
supposedtodowiththat?SoIsaid,OKImnotgonnadoitanymore.Then
wehadtheideaofdoingourownthing.Good,andthenIthought,asIknew
LeoNavratilandschizophreniapaintingandpoetry,hesentmeapoem
aboutschizophreniathatIturnedintoOselapeianditbecamevery
successful.ThenweinvitedHemlutBaumann,Neumeier,PinaBauschand
JochenUlrichalsodidsomething.Itbecamemoreandmoresuccessful.My
secondthingwastheassassinationofRudiDutschkeParadies?.Itwas
bannedafterthefirstperformance.Wecouldntperformitagainbecausethe
APOmovement(extraparliamentaryopposition)wasintheaudiencefor
thefirsttimewiththeirflagsandlonghair.Thatkindofthingwas
unbearableforanoperahouse,thattheselonghairedapesshouldcomeinto
thetheatre.KurtHbnerinBremenheardaboutitandhebroughtmeto
Bremenstraightaway.ButIhadworkedwithBalanchine,Kranko,Agnesde
Mille,Bjartandwithallthesefamouspeople,andmyquestionwasalways:
whyamIdoingthiswithyouhere,thisstuffwithoutstorylines?Imean,its
legitimate,neoclassicalballetandIhavenoproblemwithit,butIdhada
verySocialistCommunistupbringingandIwasthenintheMarxist
movementinCologneandIthoughtwehadsomanytopicsbefore1945and
after1945,andthenweimmediatelybroughtouttheassassinationofRudi
Dutschke.IwascalledtoBremenimmediatelyafterwardsandtherewere
peopletherelikeZadek,Fassbinder,Neuenfeld,Minks,BrunoGanz,Jutta
LampeandwhoevertheywereandIthought,Ohgod!HowcanImeasure
upagainsttheseicons?
Istayedwithmypoliticalcontent.IdhadadiscussionbackthenwithKurt

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JoossDerGrneTischhadbeenabiginfluenceonmeandKurtJooss
said,Hansgooninthisdirection,withpoliticalideasandsuch.SoI
continuedinBremenwithKriegsanleitung,SchwanenseeAG,Paradies?,
PIGasUS,theelectionpropagandabetweenJohnsonandNixon.Backthen,of
course,thecriticswerenotusedtoseeingcontent.Theydidntknow
anything.TheykneweverythingaboutSwanLakeandGisellebutdidnt
knowanythingaboutmystuff.Therewaslotsofconfrontationwithcritics.I
usedtobesomeonewhowouldntshutupthateasilyandalwaysuppedthe
ante.IworkedoutthatthenearerIamtothepoliticalcontent,themorethe
Germandanceworldisinterestedinitsowhatsgoingontherethen?
ThencamePinaBausch.Shetoohadaninsanelydifficultposition.
Thankfully,IhaddirectorssuchasHbner,andStolzenberg.PinaBauschas
wellasSusanneLinkehadHoffmannWstenhferasadirector.Theygave
thechoreographerstimeandopportunitytolearnandtrythingsout.
Todayschoreographerseitherhavelessornoneofthis.
(Secondtitle)
Encounters:
PinaBausch,ReinhildHoffman,SusanneLinke,GerhardBohner
JK:Mybackgroundisverydifferent.IdidntgotothatKurtJoossschoolin
Essen(Folkwang).Ihadneverbeentoballetschool.Ididntneedit.These
threeladieshadaverydifferentbackground.Bohnerisagainsomething
quitedifferent.Wespokewitheachotherbutwehadverydifferentthemes.I
couldntreallydomuchwithPinaBauschsthemesandshecouldprobably
doabsolutelynothingwithmine.Butitwasntaproblem.Weweremoving
inparallelbutthecontentofourworknevermet.Thelargetheatreswere
laughingatus.Theysaid,LookwhatshappeninginWuppertalorBremen,
itsallrubbish.Yes,andthensuddenlyweweresuccessfulandthencame
HerrEverdingandGtzFriedrich.IwasaskedwhetherIwouldntwantto
bethebossinHamburgorattheDeutscheOper,andIsaid,No,Imnot
goingperformRomeoundJuliaandSwanLake,theclassicalpieces,ona
Mondayandthenhavetoputonmyexperimentalworksinabackroom
somewhere.NeitherPinaBauschnorIwent.Westayedwherewewere.
ThencameGerhardBohner,ReinhildHoffmanwasinmygroup,andthats
howitalldeveloped.Slowly,thebigtheatresgaveuptryingtogetusthere,
aswewouldnthavegone.HowcouldthethingsIdidatthestartofmy
career,orPinaBauschsthings,beshownattheDeutscheOperorStaatsoper
Mnchen?Peoplewouldhavebeenoffended.Itwasalsoimportantforpeople
tofinallylearnthatthereissomethingotherthanclassicalorneoclassical
balletthathadvalidity.Butweonlyencounteredeachotheratapremiere,
overawhiskyorabeerandthatwasessentiallyit.
(Thirdtitle)
Choreographictheatreversusdancetheatre
JK:TherewasnoGermandancetheatrebackthen.IthoughtinCologne,
WhatdoIcallitwhenIusedancerswhospeaknotextbuthavethesame
contentastheatre?HowdoIputittogether?AsImmetaphoricalandcome
fromdrawingandpainting,Ithought,Choreographyandtheatre.Ah!
Choreographictheatre.Idevelopedthisnameanditremainstoday.There
wasunfortunatelynosuccessor.Thencamethephrasedancetheatrefrom
PinaBausch.Theyaretwoverydifferentthings.Thecriticswerevery
confusedbackthen,asking,whatsthatandwhatsthat?Theyonlyknew
classicalorneoclassicalballet.Thisishowthenamecameaboutand
becamefixed,butithadnosuccessors.
(Fourthtitle)
Whathaschanged?
JK:Yes,afewthingshavechanged.ThedancersIhadavailablebackthen
weremainlyclassicaldancers.Ihadtobendandmouldtheirbodiessothat
somethingdifferentwouldemerge.Dancersarenowextremelywelltrained
andeducated,muchbetterthanbefore.Theyhavemodern,theyhave
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classicalandtheyhavenewtrainingmethods,likewhenKlinsmannstarted
usingrubberbands,PilatesandeverythingelsewiththeGermannational
footballteam.Wehadnothinglikethat.Atmostwehoppedthroughthe
balletstudiowithafewweights,orputawomanonourshouldersanddida
fewplisandsuchlike.Allthathaschanged,butunfortunatelythe
choreographershaventchangedandhaventkeptupwiththedancers.There
aregreatdancers.Thefigureshavedefinitelychanged:Theynolongerlook
likeIdidbackthen,likeasmallmusclemanthatwhoprobablywouldntbe
abletogettohistoesorsomething.Theyarealltallandslimandvery
differentlytrained.Ifindthatgreat.Hopefully,therewillbeafewnew
choreographerstheretoo.
(Fifthtitle)
FromBerlintoBonnscandal
JK:MycontractwaswiththeBerlinSenatenotwiththeVolksbhne.It
expired.Momperandothers,theculturesenatorandwhoever,camehere
andsaid,Hans,were45billionindebthereinBerlinandwecantextend
yourcontract.ThenBonnwasatthedoorandthedirectorsaid,Cometo
Bonn,weregoingtorockoperaanddrama,comejoinus.Iwent,butalso
becauseIlovedmygroupandIthoughttheydatleasthaveafiveyear
contract.ThenwediscoveredthatinBonnyoucantopenyourmouth,you
cantsayanythingagainstanyoneoranything,andwhenIdidapiece
aboutHanneloreKohlthecityalmostcollapsed.Itwasacatastrophefor
them.NoonenoticedthatIreallywantedtoshowapolitician,likeMacbeth,
whogoessofarthatthewifenolongergoeswithhim.Shesleftbehind,even
byhersonsandeverything,andImadeamartyroutofher.Imean,her
deathdidnthappenoutoftheblue.Thatwasstillmoreorlessacceptablein
Bonn,butthenwhenItriedtomakemymark,forexamplewithrevivalsof
Goya,butthenwehadthestuffysetintheauditoriumsaying,Heavens!
Whatonearthsthat?IwastooblatantforBonn.Mycontractwasnt
renewedafterthreeyears.Ididthefiveyearsformygroupsothattheyhad
contracts,butthentheywentandthrewoutthewholegroupinsteadofjust
gettinginanotherchoreographer.Itwasallrelatedtocostsavingmeasures
andpoliticians.Theentiregroupwasoutalongwithanother30people.The
directorscontractwasextendedandhealsogotBMW.Ifwehavethesetypes
ofdirectorsthenmanydancegroupsinGermanywilldisappear.
(Sixthtitle)
Artisticmodelsandrolemodels
JK:LotsofFellinifilms,lotsofPasolini.Ivealreadydonethreepiecesabout
Pasolini:theatre,choreographictheatre.Hecreatedtheconceptofconsumer
fascismatthestartofthe60s.Wehavenothingbutconsumerfascism
todayitisanexploitiveformofcapitalismthatyoucannolongerkeepup
withitseverywhereyoulook.Youhavetofindtodaysthemesinvery
differentplaces.Thereslotsofcontent.IfIstillhadagroup,Iwouldwork
withthesethemes.ButIhadagroupformorethan40yearsandthats
enough.
(Seventhtitle)
andkeyworks
JK:Classicalballet,definitely.Regardlessinwhichform,SwanLake,Giselle
andRomeoandJuliet.AndnaturallyBeethovensNinthispartofthat.You
cantrewriteBeethovensNinth.Itsthere,itshouldbethere,andthats
important.TherearenaturallyinfluencesandrolemodelsDerGrneTisch
byKurtJooss.Therearedancersthere,likederroteJeanWeidtwhodid
solopieceswithapoliticalcontent.Therearemanypiecesfromearlieryou
needtokeeptolearnfromthemandseehowthingswerethen.Piecesby
GerhardBohnerandPinaBauschwedontalwayswanttoputonPina
Bausch,asatsomepointitcrumblesawayaswellasCranko,butthemost
endangeredpiecesaremyownbecausenoonecanrecreatethem.Somehave
triedbutitdoesntwork.Butclassicalworksmustdefinitelybepreserved,as
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wellasclassicaldance.
(Eighthtitle)
Onesownheritage
JK:Imnotvainenough.IfIdstartedthinkingaboutmypastandmypast
piecesthenIdhavediedalongtimeago.Idonthaveto.Icantassessit.
ImportantwouldbepieceslikeKriegsanleitungfrjedermannthatwe
performedasguestsattheDeutscheOperwhenthepolicecameand
occupiedthetheatreastheaudiencewasbeatingeachotherupbecauseof
thecontent.TheBerlinSenatehadsaidnowarmaterialhadbeenbuiltin
WestBerlin,butitwasnttrue,astheyhadbuiltalltheelectronicstuffforthe
combattanksandeverythinginWestBerlin.Someonesaidtheyhadntbuilt
anywarmaterialandIsaid,Well,yourelying.Youcanmakeweaponsor
tanksusingafewsmallparts.Sothosethingsmaybeapartofmyheritage
orSchwanenseeAG,whichwasseenasacatastrophebythecritics,butit
wasnttrue.
(Ninthtitle)
ReenactmentofFrancisBacon(2012)
JK:Imnotveryvain,butIhavetosayImtheonlyonewhohasdonefive
painters,whohasdonesomanyfemalebiographies.Idontthinkthereis
anyoneinEuropewhohasdoneasmanypremieresasIhave.Francis
Baconcameaboutinresponsetothegreatdemandtoreenactthepiecewith
IsmaelIvoatafestivallastsummer.Ineverthoughtitwouldbeso
successful.Thereweresixadditionalperformancesandthefestivalwas
extendedbyalmostaweekbecauseofit.ThenitwenttoBrazilandIsmael
Ivoreceivedanawardfromthepresident.FrancisBaconwasaverydifficult
pieceforme,becausewhenyoulookatFrancisBaconspictures,forexample
thepictureofthePope,forwhichBaconspenttenyearsthinkingabouthow
hecouldputthePopeoncanvasatall,Imtherethinking,HowcanIput
whatFrancisBaconhaspaintedonthestage?Itwasaverydifficult
process.IdiditwithIsmaelIvo,whowasnevertrainedinclassicaldance.
Hewasanactor.Itwaseasiertodothepiecewithhimthanwithahighly
qualifieddancer.Itwouldhavebeenmoredifficultthatway.IsmaelIvohas
aparticularcharismaandthatswhythepiecewassuccessful.Ithinkitwill
berepeatedintheVolksbhne.
(Tenthtitle)
Deviationsfromtheoriginal
JK:Yes,therearedifferentpeopleinit,andoneextracharacterwas
installed,atIsmaelIvosrequest.Isaid,OK,wellhaveonemore.Iworked
morewiththebodies,asthepeoplewhodancedthepremierewithIsmael
haddifferentbodiesandIalwaysfocusonthebody.WhenIworkwitha
singerIalwaysworkwiththephysicallimitsofthesingingorthevoice.Ido
thesamewithactors.Icantaskafatactortodothreepirouettes,for
example.Everybodycandance,evenfatpeople,evenpeoplewithphysical
disabilities,everyonecanmove.Butyouhavetoworkwithintheirphysical
limits.Ifoundafewwaystoworkwiththedancerssothattheydidnttryto
copywhattheycouldntdo.IthinkIreadsomegoodreviewsaboutthepiece
inStuttgartagesago.Ihaventreadanythingelsesince.Itsaiditwaslikea
greatecho.Idontknow.Iknowthatallperformancesweresoldout
immediately.IsmaelhadcharismawrittenalloverhisfaceandIsaidto
myself,OK,thengood.
RecordedattheVolksbhneBerlinon24/4/2013
Interviewguidelines:IsabelNiederhagen,RiccardaHerre
Interviewandediting:IsabelNiederhagen
Cameraandediting:AndreaKeiz
(Finalpage)
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