Topic: surface losses (Read 1,650 times)

surface losses
Thread Started on Jan 21, 2012, 3:06pm

hi all,
does anyone know how to measure surface losses on solid control (shaker, desander, desilter, losses on cutting ),
as mud man used to measure it using mud cup ( l/mnt)....
Re: surface losses
Reply #1 on Jan 22, 2012, 8:28pm

get any cap which has to show how much mud you will get when it is done.
for example: your cap capacity is 1000 cc. your solid control lets say desilter outlet filling this volume 40
second.
40second =1000cc
60second=1500 cc
60minute=90000cc------1bbl=158987cc
60minute:0,57 bbl
now you get the surface loss of desilter:0,57 bbl/hr
Re: surface losses
Reply #2 on Jan 22, 2012, 10:11pm

Sorry guys, but I've never seen surface losses being measured by the mudman using a mud-cup. Especially not
at the shakers. Althogh I've never seen it done, I suppose one could put a bucket under the outlet of a desilter, let
it settle, and then measure the fluid vs solid content in the bucket.
Surface mud losses are always an estimation. When you dump a sand-trap, a certain (known) volume is lost. But
it's obviously not all mud, otherwise you wouldn't have decided to dump it in the first place!
Treat all mud reports with caution, and ignore what they say at your peril and potential expense! That having
been said, build up a relationship of mutual trust and understanding with your mud engineer, and you'll then
know exactly what's been lost where at surface, and possibly why.
AK
Re: surface losses
Reply #3 on Jan 23, 2012, 11:45am

if you choose my method,you have to run it at least 2 times.you will get the average filling time.And also I
forget the one thing (adoubleuk is said).when mud cup is filled with mud and solid.My method is by using sand
content kit to decide how much percentage solid in there and you will calculate the surface loss of desilter just
with mud.

Re: surface losses

Reply #4 on Jan 23, 2012, 1:50pm

Jan 22, 2012, 8:28pm,siriusmentonwrote:

get any cap which has to show how much mud you will get when it is done.
for example: your cap capacity is 1000 cc. your solid control lets say desilter outlet filling this volume 40 second.
40second =1000cc
60second=1500 cc
60minute=90000cc------1bbl=158987cc
60minute:0,57 bbl
now you get the surface loss of desilter:0,57 bbl/hr

This method is not alien to me at all and I too have used it to compliment other methods to ascertain these
figures.
You can also use Dynamic and Static loss figures, provided you're not making any new hole ex: circ btms up.
The increase in dynamic loss gradient over that for the static losses on the Active system trace can be attributed
in part to losses into formation due to ECD and relatively constant surface losses .,,,but if you have already
established downhole loss trend then you'll get a better figure for surface losses.
Things like the desilter & desanders can give a good indication of how much mud they consume when switched
on or/and off, on the Active System's trace while drilling, provided the pits are properly calibrated and charts
meaningfully scaled...and no ones messing around with the active system. You will see a bump on the slopping
active gradient. This is not hard to do or time consuming at all, provided you don't have Neanderthals watching
these parameters but personnel who know how to compensate for the amounts of pipe displacement and
capacity, hole volume / annular volume theoretically or better still with the use of MWD hole caliper if possible.
The Active System trace can also pick up and quantify losses over the shakers once confirmed visually, if not,
then the bit's just penetrated a loss zone or cave - just look at where the active slope took off and minus the new
loss rate from the previously established slope with constant gradient.....again if and only if no one's messing
around with the pits.
Another way is to circulate with bit above closed annular but cuttings size vs screen gauge and solids factor
won't play a major role.
Changes in surface loss rates, down hole loss rates (both static and dynamic) must be entered onto the charts and
screens and must always be investigated. This used to be standard practice back in the late 80s but seems to be a
lost art these days. Even the head honcho on an ultra deep well I was on hadn't the slightest clue as to what I was
talking about when I suggested that these figures be tabulated and noted in real time but that excusable because
it was his first job as day supervisor - prior to that he was the rig medic !

Re: surface losses

Reply #6 on Jan 24, 2012, 12:56am

If all you want to know is whole mud losses, this is how I would do it:
- Check the density of the mud.
- Check the density of the discharge on the solids control equipment.
- Calculate, from that density, how much is whole mud and how much is cuttings, using the formula (V1*D1) +
(V2*D2) = (VF*DF), where V1 and D1 are the volume and density of the mud, V2 and D2 are the volume and
density of the cuttings, and VF and DF are the volume and density of the discharge.
Example:
My mud weight is 1050kg/m3. The wet cuttings going over the shaker weigh 1950kg/m3. The dry cuttings
density is 2600kg/m3. (Which should be pretty constant no matter where you are. If it isn't, adjust accordingly.)
Putting it all into the formula, I get:
(V1*D1) + (V2*D2) = (VF*DF)
(V1*1050) + (V2*2600) = (VF*1950)
I have three variables in the formula, but they can be rewritten so that I'm left with one. VF, for simplicity's
sake, will be 1m3. Since that 1m3 consists of two things, mud and cuttings, subtracting one of them from 1 will
equal the other. So I rewrite the formula like this:
((1-V2)*1050) + (V2*2600) = (1*1950)
(1050-1050V2) + (2600V2) = (1950)
1550V2 = 900
V2 = 0.58
1-V2 = V1
1-0.58 = V1
0.42 = V1
So then, for every m3 of wet cuttings that go over the shaker, 0.42m3 of it is mud, and 0.58m3 is dry cuttings.
Repeat as necessary.

Re: surface losses

Reply #7 on Jan 26, 2012, 3:15am

thanks guys for the comment, really appreciate it

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