Text Comments On Tony Jones On Sarcastic Luther 889

Do you have questions about the cross?
April 2, 2015 by Nadia Bolz Weber

Tony Jones (a figure in the church who, like myself, has both a lot of fans and
a lot of detractors) has written what I believe to be his best book to date: Did
God Kill Jesus? Searching for Love in History's Most Famous Execution. <-Click
on the link to read both a sample chapter, and what some folks are saying about
this amazing book.
Here's my endorsement:
"This important, smart, readable, and ultimately beautiful book allows this gene
ration to re-claim the cross as the place of God's deepest love rather than the
place of our deepest shame. Jones unlocks the chains of fear and shame that bind
so much of Christianity and offers us instead, freedom. I am so grateful for th
is important book. I will honestly be referring people to Did God Kill Jesus? fo
r decades to come. It's that important. If I had this book in seminary, several
of my classes would have made a lot more sense."
889 Comments
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Tim Wilson-Brown - 7 hours ago
Despite the warnings and the apology, this outcome is convenient for those in po
wer in Emergent, and completely in line with Tony Jones' previous and continuing
actions to silence any conversations about this alleged abuse. You really shoul
d be more careful to avoid actions that would clearly be viewed incredibly skept
ically by a large number of commenters. I notice you also disabled comments enit
rely on your apology, which is also convenient. After using a post with almost a
thousand comments as a trial run, did you do the same thing, or try something d
ifferent? Matthew, if you doubt your technical competence, don't take your first
action in public, on a highly controversial and visible blog, affecting almost
a thousand comments. This should be embarrasing for you, and whoever granted you
admin access, and Nadia. Try a private test environment, or, if Patheos doesn't
provide that, an ancient post with few comments. "Test on an inconspicuous spot
first", as they say. Secondly, if you modify a post or its comments, please edi
t the post to acknowledge that. It's basic Internet etiquette. Otherwise, Patheo
s tech support will get complaints that comments on their site aren't working, f
rom those who come straight to the post. This could mean editing the "Do you hav
e questions..." post to document the disabling of local comments, and their new
location on disqus. It also would help to put
a note at the bottom of your apology to note that comments are disabled there as
well. Given your lack of experience, you may want to make sure that Nadia's nex
t post actually has active comments - unless, of course, you intend comments to
be off for future posts.
6
Jmac6301 - 11 hours ago
I will ask again...what format would you like all 881 comments in? I will send a
fter class around 10 pm central so they can be back up by 10:30PM. I know you wo
uld NEVER delete comments. It's okay. We can get them right back up. Thank you f
or not being like the enabling abusers who covered up his abuse for the past 7 y
ears primarily by deleting threads such as this.
1
Where are my comments? Your wife has my email. Why is she hiding? Further, why i
s a smart woman going down for an abusive NPD?
hikerrev - 11 hours ago
@ Jmac6301 ~ I just sent you a FB message. It may end up in your 'other' folder,
which is why I make note of it here.
He tees it up by saying, "I might accidentally delete" WHAT FRAUDS!!!
Nadia's Lutheran Bishop told her to not speak to a woman who was physically, emo
tionally, and litigiously abused? She was told instead to endorse shamelessly th
e abuser and ignore the woman? Even hang up on her when she called her by phone
out of desperation having been silenced and shunned by all of the middle aged wh
ite males in and around Emergent epicenter.....she asked her for help and she sa
id, "I will not engage in gossip." You are saying that Nadia was advised by her
Lutheran Bishop to... "In response to the advice given to her by
her Bishop, her Spiritual Director, and her husband (me), Nadia makes it
a policy to not read any comments on her blog or on her Facebook page." Was she
clairvoyant when she attacked commenters calling them people with "digital pitch
forks." She won't comment but she will publicly post a support letter of an abus
er who threatens at progressive "Christian" conferences to attendees how he woul
d like to have his ex wife murdered. THAT the Bishop of the Lutheran Church in D
enver, Colorado supports? I don't think so. Doubt it. Bishop? Bishop of the Luth
eran church in Denver, Colorado for the House of All Saints and Sinners, are you
REALLY supporting this sham and advised Nadia to remain silent about an abuser
when the evidence is overwhelming?
2
From an anonymous source..... I have been following this situation since last Se
ptember, but have been
very hesitant to share one of the main reasons why I've believed Julie
since she first posted on NP's story last September. I have friends and
colleagues who support ToJo. I don't know what the consequences will be
if this gets traced back to me, but here goes: I met ToJo last year at a
conference. Within about an hour of meeting him he made comments to me
about wanting to 'murder his ex-wife' and wishing he had never had
children. I knew nothing of his personal life at the time, but I
remember being really weirded out by the intensity with which he said
these things. He did not sound 'jokey.' It was disturbing. I handed my
hosting responsibilities over to other conference volunteers after that
and kept my distance from him. Even so, I had held out the possibility
that I might pursue a partnership with JoPa on a future conference, but
realized in January, when ToJo began his retaliation against Julie, that
I could not, in good conscience do so. I reached out to Julie privately
two months ago to let her know and to offer my prayers and support. One
side note: I have also been asked to provide major financial support to
a local NBW appearance in 2016. I intend to speak to the organizers of
that event about withdrawing my pledge and to tell them why. Sorry for
attempting to be anonymous about this, I hope you all understand.
2
She never reads her comments....BS. That's why she attacked commenters calling t
hem people with "digital pitchforks." And, what is this weird behavior of Rachel
and Nadia having their husbands swoop in to save them. Dear Lord, you just set
the woman's movement back to 1950. Nadia's a big girl she can speak up for herse
lf and she has some serious explaining to do as to why she supports and in an ov
er the top manner an abuser?! She is supportive of a man who threatened to have
his ex wife murdered? Yes, that happened and at a "Christian conference."
CurtisMSP - 12 hours ago
So when people reach out to Nadia for help on social media, she ignores them? Th
is is on the advice of her Bishop? Isn't it dishonest to not tell people this be
fore they start reaching out, with the assumption that Nadia is reading? The hon
est thing to do would to turn off comments on the blog and on Facebook, rather c
ontinue with the deception that Nadia is reading them. Maybe you can ask what th
e Bishop's advice about deception is and get back to us?
2
hikerrev - 12 hours ago
I recently received notice that the comments here, in response to this note Nadi
a has written about a new book, have gotten quite numerous and by some accounts
somewhat aggressive. Further, (having briefly glanced at only a handful of comme
nts, I see that) there are some false assumptions being made here as well as som
e inappropriate ad hominem attacks. I will, therefore, be disabling comments for

this post. Please know that Nadia has not read any of these comments and does n
ot know what's been said here. In response to the advice given to her by her Bis
hop, her Spiritual Director, and her husband (me), Nadia makes it a policy to no
t read any comments on her blog or on her Facebook page. However, the comments a
re occasionally reviewed (but not shared with her) by people who love her, and i
n this case I have made the decision that there has been enough opportunity for
folks to weigh in. None of the comments, thus far, have been deleted by me or by
Nadia. If any have been deleted, that has been done by someone other than this
household and unbeknownst to me. Further, it is not my intention to delete any o
f the comments posted here ... however, as this is my first time administering a
Patheos blog, if I accidentally do so, please forgive me. Peace be with you.
1
hikerrev hikerrev - 7 hours ago
Great idea, KT. The link to this thread is now posted on the apology post on Nad
ia's blog. And thanks for your reflections, Caryn. I honestly don't know when th
e general practice of not reading or responding to comments started, but thank y
ou for pointing out the truth that many people expect that the poster is also pa
ying attention to the comments. I'll talk with Nadia about whether or not it mak
es sense to put some kind if disclaimer in the blog intro. Nadia is the Pastor o
f House for All Sinners and Saints, which is part of the Rocky Mountain Synod of
the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. I feel uncomfortable putting contac
t info here, but I'm sure you can track that down. As to the remainder of the co
nversation posted since the comments were taken down, I'd like to share that Jul
ie and I have had a conversation with one another on another platform, and I tha
nk sincerely thank her for that. Further, please note that I won't be taking the
time to track this conversation very closely over the coming days, so I ask tha
t you not take offense if I don't respond to this conversation.
KT Pridgen hikerrev - 6 hours ago
Thank you for posting the link, Matthew!
1
Living Liminal hikerrev - 7 hours ago
It's good to see a link to the accidentally lost comments has been added. Is the
re any reason it wasn't put up on the post that people were actually commenting
on?
Caryn LeMur hikerrev - 9 hours ago
Hi Hikerrev: You wrote on Nadia's Blog: "In response to the advice given to her
by her Bishop, her Spiritual Director, and her husband (me), Nadia makes it a po
licy to not read any comments on her blog or on her Facebook page." 1. When did
this policy start? At what date did Nadia continue posting, but determined to ne
ver read a comment? 2. Whom is her Lutheran Bishop that gave such advice? May I
have a name and address to write to him/her? [I believe that such advice, which
is "OK to proclaim; but not OK to engage", is counter to the gospel of Christ. S
o, while I may applaud the obedience of Nadia to her Bishop, I also wish to writ
e to him/her and appeal his/her guidance to Nadia.] 3. Please ensure that you al
so post in the Section above all future comments, "In response to the advice giv
en to her by her Bishop, her Spiritual Director, and her husband (me), Nadia mak
es it a policy to not read any comments on her blog or on her Facebook page." Yo
u should do this so that people like me, that posted questions to Nadia, will re
alize that she will never read the question (and of course, then never respond).
In this manner, you will at least remove the appearance of deception (after all
, blogs on Patheos are for dialog with the author, rather than just for simple p
roclamations by the author).
Sincerely; Caryn LeMur
2
KT Pridgen hikerrev - 9 hours ago
Hey, I'm hoping you see an alert from this reply. I saw your apology post about
deleting the comments. The comments are all still available through Disqus. I th
ink it'd be great for transparency to include a link. Since deleting them was an
accident, you can essentially restore them by just posting the link that leads
directly the the Disqus conversation: https://disqus.com/home/discus...

2
Caryn LeMur - 14 hours ago
Post 1 of 3: ONE REBUTTAL TO "SUMMARY REQUESTED BY SOME HAVING TROUBLE
WITH DISQUS" [posted by "Kandace"]: I am not a lawyer.
I assume that Kandace is not a lawyer. However, after researching the Digital La
w Project, I am especially concerned that Kandace did not mention that Tony Jone
s is certainly a 'Limited Purpose Public Figure.' http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guid
... A 'Limited Purpose Public Figure' is someone that has "... thrust themselves
to the forefront of particular controversies in order to influence the resoluti
on of
the issues involved." What has been discussed in these postings (on Nadia's blog
) are opinions. The subjects discussed in these postings has been greatly encour
aged by Tony Jones. Please consider just the following (there is more): Multiple
times on his world-wide Internet Patheos Blog, Tony Jones thrust himself to the
forefront of discussions concerning marriage, sacramental marriage, legal marri
age, his own decision to obtain a sacramental marriage (and 2 years later obtain
a legal marriage). Tony Jones also made public the difficulty of
his 'extrication' (release from) his first marriage. [See especially his posts b
eginning 04 January 2010.]
5
Caryn LeMur Caryn LeMur - 14 hours ago
Post 2 of 3: Tony Jones also published a small book "There Are Two
Marriages" and made it available on Amazon.com for world-wide purchase, wherein
he extolled the possible non-bible-based virtues of obtaining two marriages in s
equential order with great time between each marriage (the first having no legal
binding; the second being perhaps 2 years later, and then conferring full Fed a
nd State benefits
to the spouses).
Thus, Tony Jones has thrust himself to the forefront of discussions concerning m
arriage, theology, church-sanctioned premarital sex, and pragmatic denial of Bib
lical scriptures [see especially First Timothy 5:8]. A few times on the NakedPas
tor blog of 05 September 2014, Tony Jones thrust himself to the forefront of dis
cussions concerning 'spiritual abuse' (one of the issues in the original NP post
), and the conduct of Mars Hill pastor Mark Driscoll. Tony Jones' first wife als
o responded on the same blog concerning mental and marriage abuse.
On 16 September 2014, and in the above blog, Tony Jones stated, "...all
the court records in our divorce and subsequent legal activity are public.
Anyone who really cared to know the truth would not have much trouble finding th
e entire story. I have nothing to hide, as those records paint a clear picture."
Thus both Tony and his first wife arguably became 'limited purpose public figur
es' in this area of abuse (mental and spiritual), as well as concerning their ow
n previous marriage.
Please note that Tony's statement " I have nothing to hide" - if it only pertain
ed to public court records (already not hidden), would be nonsensical. Their pri
vate divorce thus arguably became public fodder for public debate and opinions.
3
Caryn LeMur Caryn LeMur - 14 hours ago
Post 3 of 3: However, the most significant example by Tony Jones
showing his desire to thrust himself to the forefront of particular
controversies is this:
On/about 27 January 2015, and by publishing a 12 page document on the World-wide
Internet, Tony Jones again thrust himself into the controversies swirling about
his first
marriage, to include the following areas in particular:
(1) the status of his (and his first wife's) child custody;
(2) whom initiated the divorce;
(3) Tony's relationship with Courtney Perry (his second wife) prior to September
2008;
(4) Tony's relationship with Courtney Perry prior to divorce
proceedings (which proceedings resulted in divorce from his first wife);

(5) the allegation that Tony physically damaged his first wife's shoulder;
(6) spousal abuse (in particular; later, in general);
(7) alleged false reports by his first wife to law enforcement and child protect
ion services;
(8) Tony's payment of child support;
(9) one particular arrest incident that involved his first wife;
(10) one incident wherein Tony filed for temporary custody, which was denied by
the court;
(11) Tony's diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder
(NPD) and a (unstated) diagnosis given to his first wife; and
(12) that Tony Jones never had an affair and never used the phrase "spiritual wi
fe" [quick note, Tony uses the phrase 'sacramental wife'];
and closes with Tony's legal and media contacts. Dr. Tony Jones thus clearly con
firmed his intense desire to keep himself as a 'limited purpose public figure' f
or the purposes of allowing the world-wide public to comment on his personal lif
e, his theology, his marriage philosophy, and the many controversies and allegat
ions concerning his first marriage to Julie MacMahon. Again, Kandice did not men
tion how Tony Jones has undeniably sought to be a very large 'limited purpose pu
blic figure'. I am
impressed at the bravery of Dr. Tony Jones, and the amount of opinions and debat
e Tony Jones has deliberately invited by virtue of his own actions.
3
Gretchen - 14 hours ago
As I read the comments I am struck by two things: 1) the talk of various individ
uals in ministry having narcissistic traits or full NPD, and 2) the number of ti
mes posts contain the words "the problem is..." I realize I'm about to engage in
a manor incongruent with the rest of the discussion, but this is driving me NUT
S and I need to say it somewhere... In my opinion, THE PROBLEM isn't a narcissis
tic/abusive minister here and there (though that is indeed a problem), but rathe
r that Christianity itself--or at least American Christianity--fosters, produces
and maintains narcissism in its members. Worse yet, narcissism has become so wo
ven into the fabric of Christian culture, particularly with respect to leadershi
p, we are drawn to and expect our leaders to demonstrate narcissism. Unfortunate
ly, individuals with NPD have a number of attractive qualities we tend to want i
n our leaders. As a community, somehow we need to find a way to know/ remember t
hat charming, engaging, provocative, "edgy", sarcastic or otherwise dramatic
2
Gretchen Gretchen - 14 hours ago
(Sorry, discus froze on me--picking up where I left off...) are both qualities t
hat lend themselves to performance art, but can ALSO be huge red flags for NPD.
1
Gretchen Gretchen - 14 hours ago
I suspect we are more vulnerable to the charms of the narcissistic minister thes
e days, as so much of our culture has become entertainment oriented. Not trying
to be a curmudgeon here, I just think it's a real issue.
3
Annie Banannie - 17 hours ago
Jmac- I love how you wear your heart on your sleeve. Of course NBW is in on it.
"Hosting" this comment thread as a sort of bizarro world answer to the NP thread
. Too bad there aren't enough tony supporters to make it look legit, because all
those fake accounts are pretty laughable. You know it's not quite working how t
hey want when they start deleting your comments and limiting how you are able to
post. I'm hoping all the best for your next outcomes. May there be more laughin
g at ToJo in the immediate future.
4
KT Pridgen - 17 hours ago
Julie has reported that she can no longer comment on NBW's blog. She believes sh
e has been blocked. Just FYI for y'all.
3
CurtisMSP KT Pridgen - 17 hours ago
Let the censoring begin. Kandace said it was coming. It will be interesting to s
ee what story they are able to craft out of the mountain of discussion here.
3
Jmac6301 KT Pridgen - 17 hours ago
I was just able to with my name but not as guest. only an admin can change that.
they need my name for it to be an exhibit like 2 weeks ago in court when he los
t. this ain't my first NPD rodeo....we are in double digits. I know and have see
n it all before. gotta go to my unpaid internship and then grad school. I'll be
back much later to see the spin work!
3
Posted by Anne Lamont in another thread elsewhere, but very appropriate here: **
******************* 7. Publication and temporary creative successes are somethin
g you have to recover from. They kill as many people as not. They will hurt, dam
age and change you in ways you cannot imagine. The most degraded and sometimes n
early-evil men I have known were all writers who'd had bestsellers. Yet, it is a
lso a miracle to get your work published ... . Just try to bust yourself gently
of the fantasy that publication will heal you, will fill the Swiss cheesey holes
. It won't, it can't. But writing can. So can singing. **********************
2
My last 5 comments regarding this thread being the next exhibit in lawyer Simon
Troutmans next run at defamation were deleted. Nadia is in on this. When I recei
ve the next Motion I will speak out in detail. I hold the truth and that will al
ways be my winning defense. The fact the Judge told him to withdraw and not wast
e his time will not deter an NPD...they just work another angle. I have survived
the crazy campaign, the your mother is a criminal campaign, the she has defamed
me with false allegations claim. What's next? It seems to be some sort of hybri
d of she can't be telling the truth because she has rich relatives campaign? Cre
ative for sure....but the truth remains. My child has been used to try and silen
ce me from telling my story. There is no depth to which a narcissist will go to
destroy their target and yes they will even stoop so low as to use the children.
2
Caryn LeMur Jmac6301 - 18 hours ago
Hopefully not! Nadia: if you did delete those particular comments, please explai
n why? I was hoping you would not go the way of Rachel Held Evans, now famous fo
r her 'hiding' comments on her FaceBook Page. Yes, she used her husband to do th
e dirty work (or, her husband asserted his authority over her ministry... we do
not know).... but the message to others was "Your voice does not matter to me."
"Open rebuke is better than hidden love." If you disagree with the postings conc
erning X subject, then use the tool of 'open rebuke'. Please do not disgrace our
Lord Jesus by hiding comments.
Alan Molineaux - 18 hours ago
Getting the impression that this is not the same kind of safe safe space that Da
vid created on his site. 1) Whereas David put a lot of effort into facilitating
the conversation, Nadia seems to have jumped ship. 2) The nature of disqus means
that people can create accounts for the purpose of causing trouble and baiting.
They don't even seem willing to give details to someone they consider safe. 3)
It feels as if Julie has been left a little exposed by some of the comments. I t
hink she deserves more. Julie - I hope you know that there are people who care a
bout how this goes.
6
Nadia and Tony:
In my mind, the death of Jesus opened the gateway to having a new heart within u
s. A heart that was (by analogy) changed from being a 'stone' and 'non-living',
to being 'alive' and therefore 'trainable'. I would be interested in reading how
the Cross of Christ personally and pragmatically affected each of you. For exam
ple: I became a Christian by some sort of personal encounter with Jesus at the e
nd of 8th grade, in 1970. It was an amazing moment. I changed slowly over the ye
ars. Being from a military family, I knew of loyalty, rank, followership, and di
scipline. But it was from Christians (my wife, Bonnie and a Christian school tea
cher) that I began to learn of gentleness, kindness, and being patient with othe
rs. I learned forgiveness, how to release people into the loving hands of Jesus,
and move on with my life. Your turns?
1
Guest Caryn LeMur - 18 hours ago
Caryn, that was how I knew this was of ego and man and had absolutely nothing to
do with God. I kept asking, "Where is the fruit?" I am not seeing it! This is a
bout big business and not about any personal relationships with the Lord. There
is no spiritual growth. You will not be answered here or anywhere because we are
being "stonewalled" a silencing technique abusers use to control. Nadia is read
ing all of these comments and choosing silence. She is a classic NPD enabler. He
r words and actions do not align.
Caryn LeMur Guest - 18 hours ago
Guest: you have a point, based on my review of the comments. I see very little t
o nothing from Nadia. May I propose we give her another day or two for answering
my questions?
CurtisMSP Caryn LeMur - 17 hours ago
Nadia has said nothing here. I'm not sure she comments in any of her blog posts.
KT Pridgen Caryn LeMur - 17 hours ago
Unfortunately, she had months to respond to the allegations against Tony Jones.
Like RHE, she's dismissed and blocked people attempting to engage her about the
issue.
Caryn LeMur KT Pridgen - 17 hours ago
I am very sad to hear that Nadia has chosen to walk away from the example of our
Jesus.
Nadia: please consider our Lord's example in Matt 23. He was not afraid to call
a spade a spade.
At the least, speak against the doctrine of "Two Marriages". I would suggest tha
t you reassert that you are a Lutheran Pastor, and not part of the Emerging Move
ment.
1
CurtisMSP Caryn LeMur - 17 hours ago
Well, in Nadia's line of business, contracts come before God. Ironically enough.
1
Guest - 19 hours ago
then this...an actual death threat goes unchecked by feminist Nadia our "host" I
met ToJo last year at a conference. Within about an hour of meeting
him he made comments to me about wanting to 'murder his ex-wife' and
wishing he had never had children. I knew nothing of his personal life
at the time, but I remember being really weirded out by the intensity
with which he said these things. He did not sound 'jokey.' It was
disturbing.
itsallasham - 20 hours ago
Anyone bringing up Julie's family and the wealth present there is channeling ToJ
o and his circle because that's all that guy ever talked about when they were ma
rried. That and his need to make at least 100k/year to support his lifestyle (wh
ich is apparently not working since his parents own his home). Take the personal
ities and history out of it and you get this: a self-fulfilling circle of narcis
sists who wirte jacket blurbs for each other's books, sit around comparing publi
shers and advance fees, and really really poor theology that has led more people
to idol worship than made any serious contribution to the future of the Christi
an church. What HAS been helpful about the emergent movement? It has shown the e
vangelical church that it is not God's great gift to mankind either and has help
ed many people leave behind the abuses of power and spirituality they experience
d there. But leave no doubt about it, I don't give a rat's behind what you think
of who said what to whom and who filed what about whatever... the sum of these
people's lives is what they can earn and how often they can get others to pay to
hear them speak and then pay more to let them hang out with each other before a
nd afterwards. You want to dent this thing? STOP GOING TO THEIR CONFERENCES AND
BUYING THEIR LAME BOOKS. You want to help Julie? Stop inflating egos to the poin
t that no one is listening to the voices of reconciliation, confession and absol
ution. I'd even say David, et al should pause the whole thing too everyone who n
eeds to know the truth now knows it. There will be a few suckers who pay for the
pleasure of Tony and Nadia's company but if you all stop going then what moveme
nt are they really leading? Nadia has sacrificed her role as a public leader for
this lucrative friendship and her failed comedy career made way for fawning leg
ions of NBW-ites but after you've heard the same talk a few hundred times you wi
ll realize there is no 'there' there. It's empty calories. Loaded with MSG. Bad.
For. Your. Soul.
1
Guest itsallasham - 19 hours ago
I am not a psychologist but I am in graduate school getting my Masters in Clinic
al Mental Health Counseling and LPCC. I listened to Nadia on On Faith radio show
. She has all of the hallmarks of a narcissist herself. I would not be surprised
. Birds of a feather.
Alan Molineaux itsallasham - 19 hours ago
The problem is that this isn't just about TJ and his income. It is about the mis
use of power by church leaders. I don't care what he earns. I don't really care
if people want to buy his books or listen to him (other than the effect upon the
church) I do care that the church hears the voice of the abused and has the cha
nce to learn lessons from things like this. I am not sure that suggesting David
should 'pause' does anything but support the status quo: namely let's the powerf
ul maintain their power.
5
CurtisMSP itsallasham - 19 hours ago
The thing is, the critics of this Christian celebrity network are a tiny fractio
n of that network's total followers. Most of the fans have either not heard the
critique, or have dismissed it, as they instructed to do by the network leaders.
Now is not the time for the critics to go silent. Now is the time to speak stro
ngly until they are heard.
3
Guest itsallasham - 19 hours ago
I agree with you whole heartedly. They are blind, deaf and dumb to the truth and
it's pointless. They are self made gods and stopped listening to the Holy Spiri
t long ago. Preach reconciliation and refuse to reconcile with me. THIS is the t
heology. Empty words and it's big business. I was a liability and needed to be d
iscarded by the machine. Thanks for adding your insight. He WAS obsessed with my
lineage and propped up his NPD ego. Money and status are everything to that guy
. He wi use anyone and anything to get ahead.
1
nakedpastor itsallasham - 19 hours ago
I do appreciate your argument itsallasham. But it would only make sense if I car
ed only for myself. What about all the people who continue to be bullied and abu
sed by power and those who possess it? What about those who have suffered from i
t and need a safe space to share their experiences? My observation from the surv
ivors I know is that they are telling their stories not just for their own relie
f but for the redemption and relief of those who are still under it. This is why
I won't let it rest.
5
No_6 nakedpastor - 18 hours ago
The problem with some advocates is the heaps of false hope that accompany the ad
vocacy. Your strength is in providing a platform, which you excel at above all y
our peers. But what I know from first-hand experience having needed advocates in
the past is that once you go public--you're dealing with everyone else's baggag
e, including the advocate's own baggage. And yes--I have never met an advocate w
ho didn't throw theirs on the pile, too. Which it is not a victim's responsibili
ty to deal with.
KT Pridgen - 20 hours ago
So, do ya'll think these personas are Tony or his lawyer? I imagine some skeezy
lawyer getting paid $450 an hour for creating fake online profiles and annoying
people online and laugh a little.
3
wordvixen KT Pridgen - 12 hours ago
I call a mix. I'm almost positive that a handful are Tony. I'm betting a certain
one is an underling for his lawyer. I have one pegged for Courtney, but I'm wil
ling to give that one a pass in case I'm wrong. I don't know enough of Jay to pe
g his style.
1
Danica KT Pridgen - 16 hours ago
Believe me lawyers don't spend their time doing this. It's TJ, and maybe his rig
ht-hand man Jay Bakker.
3
KT Pridgen Danica - 15 hours ago
Oooh, I just Googled Jay. Soooo many tattoos. And hipster glasses and stern-look
ing portraits. That means he's progressive and relevant, so it couldn't be him.
:P
2
CurtisMSP KT Pridgen - 17 hours ago
I'm thinking its the lawyers. The fake accounts are more creative than I am will
ing to give Tony credit for. There are lawyers that specialize in extracting evi
dence from social media. But the lawyers are just doing their job. It is Nadia t
hat needs to be held accountable for allowing her blog to be used as an evidence
gathering tool against a victim of abuse.
3
CurtisMSP - 20 hours ago
Why does Kandace fail to mention the most well-established facts in her "summary
", such as Tony's NPD, or the web of endorsement and publicity contracts among T
ony's group? And what makes her think these posts will be sensored soon? What do
es she know that she is not saying?
4
Guest CurtisMSP - 20 hours ago
Cryptically intimidating. She knows the launch of the next lawsuit and has been
sent to solicit exhibits for the NPD. She has not been forthcoming and she canno
t be found on the internet as she said her thesis link would lead you to her. It
didn't. Who are you Kandace? Reveal yourself. You claim to be on the up and up
but it's not adding up.
2
Alan Molineaux Guest - 19 hours ago
It interesting that NBW hasn't taken this stuff down or entered the conversation
. It almost feels like a set up.
1
Guest Alan Molineaux - 18 hours ago
This is 100% fodder for the next lawsuit. I guarantee it and I will go viral tha
t Nadia was complicit. See, the thing is....I am not afraid. I hold the truth an
d that is what my defense is and will always be. He has tried and failed defamat
ion BS before. Bring it! My lawyer before he withdrew counsel because I owe 20k
said, "His lawyer Simon Troutman is teeing up the next lawsuit for lost wages."
NPD's are MONSTERS they will never quit fighting to control the narrative. I wil
l be here giving real time accounts of each and every litigation. Two weeks ago
Simon Troutman and his client lost in court. They attempted to gag me and preven
t me from ever posting my story. They brought in reams of blog posts from 3rd pa
rties like this as exhibits. He brought 6 witnesses including Jay Bakker. In a p
araphrased nutshell the Judge said, "Get out of my courtroom fool." Simon said,
"We withdraw our motion." If looks could kill....I was murdered by the expressio
n on my ex husbands face. Make no mistake this is lawfare and he has deep pocket
s and a triple digit book advance to attack me. Again, I hold the truth and I st
and strong and confident in it.
1
KT Pridgen Guest - 20 hours ago
Did she post a thesis link? I missed it. Do you know about what time she posted
it so I can search for it through this mess?
Guest KT Pridgen - 20 hours ago
She said she was searchable and would link to her thesis...nope dead end. I aske
d for her twitter, FB, grad school name...something to prove she was real...cric
kets. She was sent her to do a job.
1
KT Pridgen Guest - 20 hours ago
It's just like what Tony did with his statement. He provided information that lo
oked reliable to get people to believe it but that information couldn't be verif
ied.
3
Guest KT Pridgen - 19 hours ago
Her whole point was to try and connect dots and cast shadow that my supporters w
ere virtual. My friends and family are burnt out on this disgusting story and I
stopped talking about to them long ago. THEY all know about the NPD and various
abuses. I speak out now because it is WRONG for "Christian leaders" to harbor an
abuser.....even prop him up while refusing to acknowledge the carnage in his wa
ke. ANYONE with a brain knows that an NPD diagnosis is enough to stop them in th
eir tracks and believe my story. Then coupled with all of my evidence that was p
rovided to bloggers and reputable prestigious institutions and then they acted a
nd spoke out boldly in my support...this happened and is happening now and in re
al time. I'll give you an example of an NPD in action this morning. My son was u
pset. He wants to go to environmental camp. I am strapped for pennies and $175 i
s not something I can casually write a check for. My son was told by his dad tha
t, "Your mom has to pay for that." I emailed the teacher and explained that they
need to ask him as I know he recently got a VERY hefty book advance. I copied h
im and he shot back, "I'll pay....I never said I wouldn't." Sadly, the only way
to co-parent with an NPD is publicly. They ONLY care about their public persona.
This is what I deal with on the daily. I have become and expert on NPD and hope
to help others co-parent effectively. The public image is paramount to everythi
ng. I use that to try and get my children what they need.
3
Guest - a day ago
Kandace? Your "thorough" analysis is missing the part about a diagnosed narcissi
st with sadistic traits and pathological lying. Two weeks ago when a judge liter
ally said, "you can go ahead and waste my time but you have no credibility in my
courtroom and I suggest you withdraw." Why? Because judges understand what an N
PD is. Your analysis skims over that lynch pin to understanding the entire story
and why it looks this way 7 years later. You and BB and Drea and Michael never
want to discuss that part of the story, I wonder why that is?
3
Guest - a day ago
I met ToJo last year at a conference. Within about an hour of meeting
disturbing.
1
Guest - a day ago
I wonder why Kandace failed to mention a word about: Affair
Abuse
"Bat shit crazy" campaign
"Your mother is a criminal" campaign
Cover up
Death threat
Legal threats
Litigious law fare of over $500,000 spent You mostly wanted to cast smoke and mi
rrors on me personally with intimate details like my address and mothers maiden
name which were then put on the internet. Only my abuser knew I was in Mexico la
st week. That's just sheer desperation!
5
Kandace - a day ago
Thank you to Julie supporters like Danica, KT, & Tim Wilson-Brown who transparen
tly stated they don't know Tony or Julie personally but repost her allegations b
c they want to stand against alleged abuse. A clarifier: Stuff Christian Culture
Likes, Naked Pastor, The Wartburg Watch, & WatchKeep are not based in MN and th
eir operators have not publicly claimed to have known Tony or Julie during their
marriage or divorce, however their sites offer religious critique about
thousands of parties. They don't claim to do investigative research but rather
raise good questions to ask. Since Nadia hasn't felt comfortable participating,
I have chosen at Curtis' suggestion not to continue to ask questions of McLaren,
Pagitt, Barnhill, Julia Doughty, Stollar, Sargent, etc who post allegations or
supportive statements. They have public profiles that say whether they are local
to MN anyways. And it's been pointed out there are orgs, legal parties, and rep
orters with more expertise than me to research this complex story. Unfortunately
, Nadia chose not to respond to questions, although it's public she's known Tony
since approximately around 2007 and has spent time with him thru those yrs duri
ng many publicly referenced projects, events, and affiliations. Based on their p
ublicly known interactions, it appears she knows Tony & his current wife well, b
ut does not know Julie. Julie has stated she and Nadia spoke on the phone once.
In this call, Julie has claimed Nadia said she refused to gossip and hung up. I
also disclosed that I do not know Tony or Julie personally. In addition, CurtisM
SP was not comfortable disclosing whether he has real-life connection at this ti
me. David Hayward has not yet responded to questions about whether he has a real
-life, in person experience with Tony or Julie. Someone asked me to publish a su
mmary of the comments since as Julie and Tim pointed out Disqus & Patheos do not
seem able to handle 800+ comments.I will do that in a reply to this post althou
gh I suspect these posts will be censored soon. The main thing is that most of u
s feel like we've added enough to this conversation if Nadia is not comfortable
adding her thoughts.
CurtisMSP Kandace - a day ago
That is not what I said, and nobody asked you to speak for those who have spoken
for themselves. Your attempt to re-frame what is already established, documente
d fact, while ommitting the most relevant facts, is pathetic.
5
Guest CurtisMSP - 20 hours ago
Kandace was self anointed and self appointed to be the final analysis. Beyond bi
zarre on the part of Team NPD. Not a word of mention regarding the abuses or the
22 page $4000 psychological evaluation which detailed the full ugly dirty story
. 800 comments later the truth remains. Abuses occur even today and yet "leaders
" like Nadia are not only mute but overtly supportive of an active unrepentant a
buser with a very serious diagnosis.
5
Kandace Kandace - a day ago
SUMMARY REQUESTED BY SOME HAVING TROUBLE WITH DISQUS: Some local commenters rais
ed questions about Julie's parents's oil money, her senatorial candidate brother
in law's net worth, and her standard of living, which they suggested undermined
claims she had been driven into poverty. Most concurred these claims of wealth
were irrelevant to alleged abuse. MichaelOP, an event sponsor contacted by Tim W
ilson-Brown, shared the result of his org's research which he claimed among othe
r things found Julie and Tony filed an equal amount of motions & Tony had never
been charged w/a crime or w/failure to pay child support while Julie did have a
criminal charge.Julie reminded Michael she has alleged police bias in that arres
t due to Tony's former stint as a chaplain He also noted that the courts felt To
ny was safe enough that they awarded him partial custody so he has the kids on w
eekends, which he claimed they wouldn't have done if there was credible reason t
o believe Tony was an abuser. Julie admitted going to a Mexico resort recently a
fter people donated for her legal fees, but emphasized she traveled cheaply. Dee
from TWW also clarified at least one donor had specified they wanted Julie to r
elax and do something for herself. The consensus among everyone was that single
moms deserve vacations. :) Julie also explained that she leased one car and is t
rying to sell the second car she acquired for the nanny she had last year but no
longer employs due to financial difficulty. There were concerns about anonymous
commenters: both
concerns about their fear of posting in what they perceive to be a hostile clima
te and concerns about whether some might have impure motives or unrevealed conne
ctions. While some anonymous commenters identified themselves more freely over e
mail, George and Drea raised the most questions from users overall. BB was also
questioned for his tone, lack of tact, and for using what Tim pointed out was no
t a given name and others called him a sockpuppet. It was brought up several tim
es that there might be fake commenters infiltrating the conversation
due to the number of new and/or private Disqus profiles being used. Others cauti
oned it was unfair to try to dismiss those who disagree with you by claiming the
y must be all fake and therefore not valid. A couple people also questioned my i
dentity and asked me to provide personal information beyond what I'd already sha
red and I declined to do so. David Hayward briefly entered the conversation and
clarified that he does not consider himself a supporter of Julie, but a supporte
r of safe spaces. He encouraged others that Julie should be able to identify how
ever she wants. After saying this, David was asked to comment on the profit he m
akes when he asks people to buy his artwork or subscribe to his online church in
his many posts about Julie's allegations. He has not yet responded to that. Sev
eral people tried to guide the conversation away from
investigating the people who post allegations often. Others were concerned this
group was then trying to silence question askers. Ultimately for most of this th
read, those who opposed investigating allegation-posters did affirm the right of
everyone
present to ask questions they felt were relevant. There were times of exception
especially when Julie and BB were arguing back and forth when people on both sid
es tried to silence others as it admittedly grew less civil. Julie had identifie
d she was from Edina several times, but clarified she lived in a section of Edin
a near government housing. Later she voiced concern that people might know where
she lived and said she would contact the police and the web host to have any in
formation related to this removed. Julie and an unnamed Guest also posted a link
to a claim on another site where an anonymous person claimed
that just an hour after meeting Tony for the first time at an event last year, T
ony allegedly said he wanted to "murder" his ex-wife. Julie identified herself a
t times as Guest and at times as Julie, but she explained her logic for doing th
is was so the comments could not be used against her as she felt the post could
be part of an organized setup to gather information for a defamation suit. I'd l
ike to thank Leslie Lea who calmly entered as the comments were heating up and a
sserted it was headed in the wrong direction. Julie voiced her appreciation
for Leslie and shared about her faith and how her friend had a prophetic dream a
bout how Tony would drive their family into darkness which Julie believed has co
me true. With this, I am signing off and releasing myself from my original inten
tions at the advice of others here. I wish you all joy and peace and healing.
Ragnarok Kandace - 5 hours ago
Assuming this is actually Tony speaking, it's a wonder to me that no one has men
tioned that in addition to content (such as comments and other published matter)
being legally discoverable, IP addresses are also discoverable. So if someone w
anted to try to submit or subpoena any of these comments for Tony's side, Julie
could merely stand up in court all on her own and request that IP addresses be s
ubmitted as well. That way, the court can see exactly who sent these comments an
d from where. Anonymity online is a fiction when it comes to producing documents
and the like under court order. Just saying.
Annie Banannie Kandace - 17 hours ago

Oh wait, and now I have to down vote it for it's resurrection of the "Julie as u
nstable" narrative. I know you didn't say so I'm so many words, but you carefull
y curated you summarized points to make her look crazy. So yeah, I'm assuming af
fidavit. A handy synopsis for whatever is coming next. Another attempt to flip c
ustody? Sue for damages? Lost wages? Who knows. "Kandace", you are playing a gam
e, likely for your lawyers' fee, with someone else's actual life. Regardless of
how successful you may be, you are a bad person. You make te world a little ugli
er and a little less safe. You, yourself, cause harm. You could choose to do dif
ferent with your skills and education, but you don't. Maybe someday you will. Un
til then you are complicit in the abuse of every victim of domestic violence, be
cause you facilitate a culture that shames and silences them. You. Are. Complici
t. You know better, but you choose harm. You. Are. Complicit.
3
Annie Banannie Kandace - 17 hours ago
I'm liking this for its epic arrogance and pomposity, spin and evasion. Is that
your summary or your affidavit?
1
KT Pridgen Kandace - 21 hours ago
Thanks, Tony. I mean, none of us needed this as we have followed the situation f
rom the beginning and are pretty much aware of everything you gathered in your "
investigation" here. *eye roll*
3
Guest Kandace - a day ago
No one requested your summary.
3
I do not intend to continue posting as it probably brings out unhealthiness in m
e to stay in this dialogue too long, but it is okay to continue to email me. I'm
going to take a break from this for a while, but will get to those in a few day
s.
I don't think anyone has emailed you. Why not post the emails?
1
You are of course able to scroll down (for miles!) and read all of these comment
s for yourself to see if you feel this was a fair re-telling and I encourage you
to do so.
Guest - a day ago
I met ToJo last year at a conference. Within about an hour of meeting
disturbing.
3
Leslie Lea - a day ago
Well, I can only do my part. I for one, am going to boycott all "Christian books
". The Bible alone is good enough for me. God speaks to me and The Holy Spitit g
uides me through The Word, that is all I need.
1
Guest Leslie Lea - a day ago
The Holy Spirit absolutely led this going viral. It was time. David Hayward was
used and courageous enough to refuse to delete my story even though he received
a plethora of legal threats from my abuser and his enablers. They were stunned b
ecause for years their threats kept my story quiet. Not this time. The Holy Spir
it is having her say. I would like nothing more than for some beauty to come fro
m this ugliness. I am waiting for that. I know and have been contacted by other
abuse victims who have said my story gave them courage. I helped one woman get h
er and her 5 kids to a shelter after she read my story so I would like beauty an
d good fruit to come to bear.

4
Guest - a day ago
Good night, Leslie. Thank you for putting the focus where it should have been bu
t strayed. If God were involved in this...it would not look like the mess it doe
s. The mental illness is a major part of the problem too but the enablers refusi
ng to stop him are also driving this. I hold the truth and I will keep speaking.
Leslie Lea Guest - a day ago
Sweet dreams, Julie. Praying for Peace, truth and justice.and for God's name to
be glorified.
1
Thank you! I am a weary soldier but I need to remember whose child I am and that
the Holy Spirit will move if I remain faithful.
1
I suggest that we not be controlled , not be helpless and not be enablers. Let u
s commit to not buying any Christian book by any author for six months, also com
mit to not going to any Christian conference for six months. Even homeschooling
conferences. Instead let us spend our time and money on doing what Jesus did. Vi
siting the homeless shelters, women's shelters, jails, etc, etc. we may learn so
mething and we may be blessed. Let us stop spending money on foolishness written
by people who are in it for the money. Let's stop being sheep.
Sorry about the preaching.
3
CurtisMSP Leslie Lea - a day ago
Instead of six months, I say forever. Get together with some people in your neig
hborhood and use the money you used to spend on celebrity Christian books to sup
port your local community instead. A much better investment that will bring huge
dividends, instead of stroking someone's inflated ego.
1
That is really what it would take but sadly fragile egos love the hype and group
ie brand they have served up. It is a brand and they have consumers. Very reputa
ble institutions investigated my story. They interviewed me several times and re
ad all my documents. Then they said, "No more." And dumped him. I have a great d
eal of respect for those men and women who listened, prayed and then acted. I ca
n't even get to first base the listening part with Nadia or Rachel who claim to
have done "due diligence" and claim to be an advocate. FRAUDS.
1
Guest - a day ago
I held tight to the dream that God would move the mountain and it would be good
and peaceful for my kids. I understand now that because of the diagnosis of narc
issistic personality disorder with sadistic traits that will never happen. I tru
ly must pay for speaking the truth. I am the narcissistic target and his life ob
session is taking me down. I said it to him and I'll say it here....he's got the
wrong marine. I think God wired me with a little extra justice gene and I will
call out abuse wherever and when ever I see it and loudly. It is doubly toxic wh
en it is from alleged representatives of God.
1
Guest - a day ago
That is my question...where is God in this? Every year at Easter time for my kid
s I send a letter. An olive branch begging for peace and forgiveness. Begging fo
r the litigation to stop. I used to ask him to repent but that is out of the que
stion. This year I didn't bother. He has surrounded himself with enablers and he
cannot hear God or anynone but himself speaking into a microphone most likely t
o adoring fans. For my children I have this dream of peace and civility. She is
worse than he....she doesn't even know me and treats me like I am a leper and in
front of my children. It is the farthest thing from good or holy. It's evil.
1

Matthew7:23. Look it up. I feel like this blog is becoming like Geraldo. Where i
s Christ.? Is there room for the Holy Spirit to work? I am disgusted. Where is p
rovision for the widow and orphans? Who is laying down their life for the brethr
en? If it is not about Christ it is worthless.. So you men and women of God, whe
re is your heart and your soul. Geez, this stuff should be Christianity 101 to a
ll of you. Why aren't you getting it?
2
I used to ask him repeatedly, "If this is of God then where is the fruit? There
is nothing but rotten fruit in our marriage." He would just board the next plane
and often to Dallas, Texas where she lived.
Living Liminal Leslie Lea - a day ago
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary [power, p
restige, reputation...] depends on his not understanding it."
2
Guest Living Liminal - a day ago
It was the money and corruption that ruined him. My friend is prophetic. She had
a dream that his pursuits of Emergent "were a darkness and that it will harm yo
u and your family." Wiser words were never spoken. He told her in a rage, "Barb,
you have no idea what you are talking about!" Actually, she did. I tried to spe
ak truth into his life. I knew he was going down the wrong path. He would not li
sten. No one was going to take him from the spotlight.
Living Liminal Guest - a day ago
So sad :(
Guest Living Liminal - a day ago
my children bear the sin of their father. He refuses to repent and is stuck in r
evenge mode. It will take a miracle to break this cycle. The enablers could help
like Doug Pagitt but they carry on and cash the checks.
Guest - a day ago
This is the best Progressive Christianity has to offer. This...my outrage has an
d will always be how dare you use the name of Christ. You don't get to literally
throw people to the ground and act like it never happened. I want Christian lea
ders who are held accountable for bad behavior. This was on Naked Pastors blog t
oday. YES a person who states a death threat is who you are enabling. I have bee
n following
this situation since last September, but have been very hesitant to
share one of the main reasons why I've believed Julie since she first
posted on NP's story last September. I have friends and colleagues who
support ToJo. I don't know what the consequences will be if this gets
traced back to me, but here goes: I met ToJo last year at a conference.
Within about an hour of meeting him he made comments to me about wanting
to 'murder his ex-wife' and wishing he had never had children. I knew
nothing of his personal life at the time, but I remember being really
weirded out by the intensity with which he said these things. He did not
sound 'jokey.' It was disturbing. I handed my hosting responsibilities
over to other conference volunteers after that and kept my distance from
him. Even so, I had held out the possibility that I might pursue a
partnership with JoPa on a future conference, but realized in January,
when ToJo began his retaliation against Julie, that I could not, in good
conscience do so. I reached out to Julie privately two months ago to
let her know and to offer my prayers and support. One side note: I have
also been asked to provide major financial support to a local NBW
appearance in 2016. I intend to speak to the organizers of that event
about withdrawing my pledge and to tell them why. Sorry for attempting
to be anonymous about this, I hope you all understand.
2
No_6 Guest - 21 hours ago
O_O
Annie Banannie - a day ago
Every time I want to take a Michael type seriously, there's a Kandace type, or e
ven worse a BB type, who goes largely unchallenged by the entire tony supporting
contingent. Really no one supporting Julie has acted that threatening or nasty,
none of us have even been particularly sneaky other than not always using our r
eal names. Sccl is what it has always been: raucously, raunchily, critical of th
ose who harm in Jesus name. Julie is as she has always been, passionate, over sh
aring, fairly consistent. Kandace is trying to whip up something where there is
nothing. BB is outright threatening. But yep, some detail quibbles are where thi
s story is at, certainly not 5-10 fake accounts oozing out of the woodwork to sl
am, harass, and doxx Julie.
6
This is REALLY grievous to the Christian Community. Those who are bullies need t
o stop SINNING. If you are really Christians , you should get it. Christian lead
ers should stop this.
1
Leslie, 7 years ago I went to the Christian leaders for help. The affair, abuse,
"crazy campaign" all of it. NOT ONE would help me. They shunned and silenced me
. This display by BigBrowner and a slightly more subtle Kandace is what I have e
ndured since 2008. Why? MONEY! Book deals, minor xian celebrity status. They all
endorse each other books and go to the same events. It is the antithesis of Chr
ist-like and yet it goes unchecked. A diagnosed NPD is controlling the narrative
however I refuse to shut up and will keep speaking the truth forever.
1
Guest - a day ago
There are the private emails and messages that I get but they know that if they
speak out publicly they'll never work in this town again so to speak. Very inces
tuous. And, like the anonymous person on David Haywards bog today who said he li
stened as my abuser as he said he wished I was murdered. To his followers at a c
onference! YEP! This is the best progressive Christianity can serve up? No thank
s.
Danica - a day ago
WHat I also cannot believe is how Rachel Held Evans, Peter Rollins, Jay Bakker,
et al, could watch this go down and not be backing away slowly saying, "Yeah, ne
ver mind, we TOTALLY believe you now, Julie."
3
Guest Danica - a day ago
They are all interdependent on book deals, events and have the same publishers!
I must be wiped out to save the empire.
Danica - a day ago
I cannot believe a pastor would let something like this go down on her blog. Thi
s is shepherding the sheep? This is leading them to green pastures so their soul
s can be restored??
4
Guest Danica - 18 hours ago
Nadia is in on it. This thread is the nest exhibit for the next lawsuit. And whe
n it is I will speak out on that. This is what an NPD does....beats you down. Ir
onically, it has had the reverse effect and made me stronger with every failed l
egal attack. The truth sets me free.
1
I have ZERO respect for Nadia. She is a cult of personality. Schtick and fame an
d when an abuse victim is in her face saying, "Please, help." She hangs up!
1
Danica Guest - a day ago
Julie I'm sending you an email. :)
Guest Danica - 18 hours ago
she is allowing it because she is in on it. this will be exhibit A in the next f
ailed defamation run. Watch....and I will report it back and make sure it goes v
iral.
1
I think everyone who presumes to write Christian books should go on a self impos
ed 6 month moratorium and get well with their soul. Bring Christ back into the c
onvo. If there us never another book written or never another conference, so be
it, let's change the game plan here and make it about loving God and loving each
other.
4
The celebrity fame ruined my ex husband. Ruined him! He was Godly at one time...
.he lost it and sold his soul. I called him out and that is why I have been his
narcissistic target ever since.
1
Guest - a day ago
I'm fairly convinced BB and Kandace are the same they both tried to slam SCCL an
d they both spoke of conspiracy and one logs off and then they other magically a
ppears. I am further confident as my lawyer told me that Simon Troutman his lawy
er is trying to build a case for "lost wages" thus Kandace's over the top obviou
s questions about that issue. This runs deep and wide and tragically an NPD will
NEVER give up. Oh, no he will fight this until there is nothing but scorched ea
rth. I did call the police and will make a report tomorrow bringing in my laptop
. Using my personal information and my 80 year old widowed mothers maiden name..
.that's low even for an NPD and his enablers. My address? Seriously, you people
are pond scum as my dearly departed father coined his ex son in law.
2
Guest - a day ago
Where is angry Drea? She was fun.
Guest - a day ago
Sadly, this is progressive Christianity's finest at work interacting with a surv
ivor of various abuses. THIS is the best they've got.
Danica - a day ago
Waiting for another of Tony's ghost profiles to post in 3 ... 2 ...
1
Stinks, BB
Hey, I am just a humble tax accountant who is grouchy at the end it tax season.
I have also been a Christian for a long time and have the gift of discernment. A
nd what I discern here stinjsm BB
1
Guest - a day ago
What lie? It's one small question BB but you can't seem to answer it.
BB, what is your skin in this game? You certainly aren't acting very respectful.
Or Chrustlike. How does this profit you?
THIS is what I came up against for 7 years. This treatment that is so unGodly it
is unfathomable. Nadia our "host" hung up on me and Rachel blocked me. THIS is
who these people are. It is disgusting and they truly are frauds.
BigBrowner - a day ago
Danica, someone called you out earlier as an SCCL groupie. Check the connections
. Read the thread. There's stuff to be found here. That's it. I'm out.
1
Guest BigBrowner - a day ago
Out? Why? I'm wondering what you think is a lie? Calling me a liar I take VERY s
erious. What exactly do you claim I lied about? Go....I'm waiting. I asked you t
hat many times and yet you won't ask the simple question. What did I lie about B
igBrowner?
Danica BigBrowner - a day ago
YOU called me out as an SCCL groupie, Tony, under one of the many ghost accounts
you've created for yourself here. And I'm proud to hang out at SCCL - it's Wher
e All The Women Are At, after all. (tm)
3
Danica - a day ago
Hey Tony, I mean BigBrowner --- check out what someone is saying about you. It's
not flattering. I hope Courtney and any kids in the house are safe right now, b
ecause you seem to be spiraling into a narcissistic rage. http://www.nakedpastor
.com/201...
2
Stephanie Drury has more guts than any of these fake advocates. She is what I wa
nt in a Christian leader. A person with the courage to say, "NO MORE." David Hay
ward too. These fake leaders only interested in preserving the next speaking eng
agement are a terrible disappointment.
1
I REALLY think it is him too. He did this when married. NPD would absolutely do
this and the smoke and mirror and refusal to address fact and abuse is a dead ri
nger.
Guest - a day ago
This clown knows where I live. Because my abuser and Nadia have allowed this. TH
ESE are the Godly people leading the progressive church.
BigBrowner Guest - a day ago
Again, what are you talking about? I have no idea where you live. You are the on
e who mentioned the Edina police in like two dozen comments as anyone who can sc
roll down adn screencap right now can see. You're the one who just said you live
by section 8 houseing. Those are the only clues anyone has. But again, you woul
dn't comment much here because you think this website is part of the conspiracy.
But you don't, do you?
1
BB , you are getting abusive
3
BigBrowner Leslie Lea - a day ago
But it's not abusive to destroy lives with false allegations and then try to sca
re people away from asking questions? Maybe these people should have done their
homework before they started talking up these allegations everywhere to get more
clicks to their sites or sell more or their artwork. Where were you then?
1
Caryn LeMur BigBrowner - 17 hours ago
Big Browner: allegations, by definition, are neither true nor false.
A person hosting a website is not responsible for the postings of others in US L
aw. [They are, of course, responsible for their own comments.]
The key questions become these:
1. Is both the accused and accuser allowed to post?
2. Are people allowed to use their names and online names with equality? Or, do
we force some to use their real names, and not all? Or, do we block 'guest' name
s for some, but not all?
3. We can moderate for coarse language, but again, need to carefully ensure no p
rejudice in our moderating.
As a result, most moderators will allow all to post, erase nothing, and allow al
l guest accounts. Moderators are free to enter the conversation at any time.
I would encourage you to do your homework on the Digital Law website.
Sincerely; Caryn
Alan Molineaux BigBrowner - 19 hours ago
Shame on you for the suggestion. You have no idea of the good done by David to p
eople who have suffered abuse from powerful people.
nakedpastor BigBrowner - a day ago
Seriously? That's all you have on me is that as an artist I provide it for peopl
e to purchase and acquire? My blog nakedpastor makes NO money. I've made sure of
that. But I'm allowed to sell my art. So... BigBrowner... here's a sincere gest
ure... pick out ANY print you want from my shop and I will ship it to you entire
ly for free. As a gift. Just to help you perhaps see that I'm not in this for th
e money. Take your pick.
1
They did their homework and that is why legal threats to delete your blog or els
e do not work anymore. They did for years but NO MORE. I will talk freely and tr
uthfully until my last breath.
Leslie Lea BigBrowner - a day ago
WTF?
Danica Leslie Lea - a day ago
Someone has hurt feels about the naked pastor
1
Leslie Lea Leslie Lea - a day ago
Rotfl
They did! And after reading all of my documents they support me. Unlike Team NPD
that has a 1/4 of select cherry picked court docs from one court. The 3/4 tells
the story. You can choose to align with an abuser. Others who actually DID do d
ue diligence like large prestigious institutions did and then they made the choi
ce to dump him.
What allegation is false? I KEEP asking you that one simple question.
If all this gets taken down by Patheos, I suggest that you screencap everything
and send it to reporters now. This story is blown open.
KT Pridgen BigBrowner - 20 hours ago
Oh, FFS.
1
I meant BB
This whole blog is getting crazy. Bob, you sound like a big bully.
1
BigBrowner Leslie Lea - a day ago
Sometimes it's time for someone to stand up to the lies.
Leslie Lea BigBrowner - a day ago
So who are you really?
AGAIN what lie? I have answered every single thing. AGAIN what lie? ANSWER. You
seem to never answer.
Guest - a day ago
I called the police and reported Nadia Bolz Weber and Big Browner and obviously
my abuser for providing my personal information like my make and model of my veh
icle and where I lease it....OMG! You people sicken me! Exploiting my personal i
nformation like my HOME on the internet. My abuser CLEARLY gave you this informa
tion which speaks volumes to the depths of desperation he will go to smoke and m
irrors the ugly truth of his diagnosis, sadistic traits, affair, abuse and cover
up. BB? Why don't you want to chat word one about those important issues?! Inst
ead you want to recycle yesterdays smear campaign and attempt to discredit the v
ictim. I didn't know I was on trial? I'll be here all night. Next?
2
I am sure the police know your number by now. I bet they'll be right over to arr
est people based on your credible as always allegations.
I'm sorry what? What allegation of my abuse is false? I think I have asked you t
hat very simple question 7 times. What is false BigBrowner?

All Julie's supporters have been saying this whole time that Nadia was going to
delete comments, but look who is actually going to contact Patheos according to
her comment. It's Julie. Another hole. "Look they're silencing us! Quick, call P
atheos and ask them to take down the information about Julie being related to a
Senator with a networth in the tens of millions or being from an oil famiy or li
ving in a ritzy neighborhood or going on vacations while asking people to donate
to her legal costs or filing motions when she was saying it was Tony filing mot
ions. Give me a break.
I never said Nadia would delete. I am confident my abuser and Nadia are right he
re active and in real time. AGAIN and I hate to say this BB but either you are s
tupid or refusing to listen! This reminds me EXACTLY of my abuser. Here we go ag
ain for a 4th or 5th time. As I refuted and shot down your lies yesterday I will
again and every day you post it. Where is Kandace? she logged out and you logge
d in...okay...got it. 1. My brother in law is not the senator. Al Franken is. AG
AIN how does that make my story NOT true? AGAIN your logic....is illogical.
2. Tens of millions? WTF? Now you are just throwing out numbers. You have no ide
a what you are talking about.
3. Ritzy neighborhood? I live adjacent to a highway and section 8 housing my my
backyard. My abuser told my kids, "Its ghetto."
4. People helped me file a motion to get my son who was unlawfully taken January
19. I had to drop it because I owe 20k
Nadia is in on it dummy!
Guest - a day ago
I am calling the Edina police right now. My abuser has provided BB with my addre
ss and personal information about my mother and brother in law. THIS is what Nad
ia Bolz Weber is hosting and not saying a word. I am also contacting Patheos. Yo
u people are scary!!
1
I hope the police read the entire thread to see who they're dealing with to. Tha
t might be exactly what this case needs.
Guest - a day ago
I'll repeat.....BB? Do you think it is okay to abuse women?
I think it's okay to call out women when they lie. No one can tell if you were a
bused because we have to sort through the dozen lies and that's just what has co
me out in the last 24 hours to figure out if any part of your conspiracy theory
could possibly still be true after you take away all the things you said that ar
en't true.
What lie? Name it now.
Guest - a day ago
Are you afraid? But you have that big scary bull dog avatar? I will answer and I
have each and every question. however, I am answering and then you ask the same
question. It's taxing but I will be patient.
SPINDLETOP 2. The Phelan family oil well. Go on Zillow like that one guy said an
d check out Edina. Look it up, people.
1
Yes, my great grandfather sold his grocery store and put in money for an oil dri
ll. It hit oil. How does that make me NOT living below the poverty line?
Guest Guest - a day ago
I already several times actual went through this with you and Michael yesterday
but I will go slower for you.....I love in a home owned by my mother. again HOW
does that NOT make my story true and accurate with all corroborating evidence? A
NSWER....let me guess.....you won't. PLUS how SICK my abuser supplied you my add
ress I am calling the cops on that. No, seriously I am right now.

The part I loved the best is when you said you went to MEXICO recently after ask
ing all these people to donate for you but you justified it by saying it was onl
y a 3 STAR RESORT and you bought airline tickets from a cheap airline. SOUNDS LI
KE POVERTY TO ME.
People on poverty vacation idiot. AGAIN how did my truth NOT happen because I we
nt to Mexico? Your logic is really lame.
I didn't justify shit. It was a dumpy 3 star resort because that is what I could
afford. My friend gave me a week. ONLY my abuser knew I went to Mexico so you a
re either HIM or in his pocket.
I never asked one human to donate one dime. Dee Parsons commented yesterday IDIO
T how happy she was and that the main donor hoped I could get a vacation. NEXT?
EVERYONE READ YOU COMING ON TWITTER OVER AND OVER AND SAYING YOU COULDNT AFFORD
A LAWYER AND SHARING THE LINK. MORE THAN ONCE. WE HEARD YOU SAY YOU WERE IN POVE
RTY. TONY DROVE YOU THERE. OR WAS THAT GUEST OR JMAC WHO SAID THAT?
Ragnarok BigBrowner - 4 hours ago
The more you rant, the more convinced I am that you are actually Tony. At first,
I just assumed you were an asshole. Now, I'm pretty sure you're the asshole in
question.
Guest - a day ago
BB? What do you think I lied about? I have a rich relative so I was not abused?
Is that your logic?
"I'll pretend anyone who says anything against me is part of the abuse so people
are afriad to say anything." said Julie or Jmac6301 or Guest.
It is guest....do I need to explain that for a 4th time? really?
Guest - a day ago
where is Kandace? Drea? Or do you need to log out first?
2
Guest - a day ago
BB? Do you think it is okay to abuse women?
I would ask you if you think it's okay to make false allegations and run around
trying to scare people who ask questions about it, but I think we know that's pe
rfectly okay with you. ANYONE READING, read all the comments. Anyone who comes o
n here this many times trying to get other people to stop asking questions is hi
ding something and once you start reading, you'll see exactly what it is.
1
READ THE COMMENT THREAD and judge for yourself. Don't let Julie scare you away w
ith her dozens of comments and fear tactics. Use your own judgment. No sane pers
on is going to read everything that has come out here and all the holes that hav
e been exposed and Julie's change of identity every fifteen minutes and her cons
piracy theories and think "That sounds completely true." YOU ARE DOING YOURSELF
NO FAVORS and EVERYONE knows it.
1
AnnieOly BigBrowner - a day ago
As someone who has read about this story in passing on TWW and Naked Pastor, and
thinks RHE and NBW have had and still have valuable things to say, and as someo
ne who has never commented on this subject and doesn't claim to know 'the answer
' after reading through much of this thread I am willing to say this: you, 'BB',
come across like one arrogant, classless, nasty SOB. You are not doing your sid
e any favors whatsoever.
3
KT Pridgen AnnieOly - a day ago

I agree. Time to switch back to Kandace, Tony. BigBrowner isn't winning you any
points.
3
BigBrowner KT Pridgen - a day ago
I can't figure out if you people really believe Julie, if you are Julie, or if y
ou have just been HAD that bad. I hope to GOD for your sake that you actually st
arted looking into some of the holes blown into these allegations.
1
Danica BigBrowner - a day ago
Don't you dare use God's name in this Tony. You've already blasphemed Him so man
y times.
3
you just called yourself insane.
Fear tactics? I am asking to engage you directly. Off line if your wish. Change
my identity? no. just switched it to guest. Go on? What else?
If you really thought there was some big conspiracy and people were collecting t
his, you would know that people would be screencapping your every move. You DONT
really think that. You're using that to scare people away from questioning you.
You are full of it.
Actually, BB. My abuser uses every word. He shows up in court as recently as two
weeks ago with reams of paper crying slander, defamation, sue her! so, fact....
not conspiracy. He lost BTW. In fact the Judge said, "no credibility."
1
Guest - a day ago
I wonder why BB won't engage me in dialogue. He does his drive by lies and I ref
ite each and every one and then he runs away. BB? Let's chat. See, the thing abo
ut the truth is...it helps you be incredibly confident and you have peace that y
ou have nothing to hide. I have a wealthy brother in law so I must be rich too?!
Are you hearing your own silly logic?
Everyone here can see I have engaged you at every turn. That is if you keep your
name Julie and stop flipping your identity. We get it. We heard you trying to h
old your story together. Your mom is Colleen Phelan. Everyone knows. She bought
you the house you live in rent-free. Chat about anything you want. People are go
ing to scroll down and read Michael's comments and those people from your city a
nd the other guy who looked into it. It doesn't add up. It's smelled fishy for a
while, but now it's out.
wordvixen BigBrowner - 13 hours ago
No, you have not engaged her at every turn. You take everything we've said to/ab
out Tony and the sock puppet accounts, including yours, and flip it around to Ju
lie. I still don't believe that Michael is actually real, though someone that I
know *is* real believes he is, so I'll not argue that point. I'm not sure why yo
u keep screaming that anyone who reads the whole thread will side with you/again
st Julie. Many of us have read the whole thread, and all that's becoming clearer
to me is how very much Tony is still trying to control every tiny bit of Julie'
s life despite 7 years passing. Unless Courtney really enjoys this kind of vindi
ctive streak (which, maybe she does, I rather enjoy the drama myself even though
I'd rather see things cleared up so Julie and the kids could get a bit a peace)
, I can't imagine that she's super thrilled about being married to a man who is
completely obsessed with his ex-wife. I know that if I were married to a man who
is this obsessed with his ex for ANY reason, I'd be seriously considering leavi
ng. You keep making "Ahah! Caught you!" comments regarding Julie, and for the mo
st part are either arguing with her directly or trying to convince everyone else
to hate her. This leads me to believe that either you are Tony, or that you rea
lly have a very poor reading comprehension. Your fight with Julie seems oddly pe
rsonal, so I'm going with either Tony or one of his buddies, but, maybe you're j
ust an asshole. Too hard to tell without more concrete info.
flipping my identity. I will explain this now for a 3rd time. I switched it to g
uest. Understand?
I think we all understand.
Guest - a day ago
BB, this is Nadia's blog. Of course it is hostile territory. The woman hung up o
n me when I called her after being physically abused. HUNG UP. You are an enable
r. I asked what you thought about a man throwing his wife to the ground in front
of 3 kids and you want to talk about my wealthy great grandfather?
3
I'm going to lay this out for everyone here and I don't care who comes on and sh
oves back, I ain't budging. People came on here yesterday asking questions about
the trolls who are talking these allegations up every time they get the chance.
Who are they? Do they even know Julie? It went south FAST and lots of stuff cam
e out about Julie. She's from an off-the-charts wealthy family living no where n
ear the way she let on. She's filed as many motions as her husband but convenien
tly told everyone he was litigating her to death. The list goes on. Do yourself
a favor people. Watch who comments after me and who joins in with Julie right no
w. Go see who they're connected to. Oh the trolls? YOU DON'T SAY. Read all the c
omments in this thread and you'll see what's got them all worked up.
I'm not worked up. I am busting lies right and left. You are ridiculous to assum
e you know what is in my bank account. I assure you it isn't pretty. FURTHER wha
t the hell does that have to do with the fact that the abuser you are enabling h
ad an affair, tried to cover it up, threw me to the ground and was police escort
ed out of the home?! ANSWER.
1
Wave your hand, turn on anyone who even comes on here and asks a polite question
. Go ahead. And meanwhile every word you write trying to turn people off this wi
ll just make them go and see exactly what's got you this determined to see what'
s happened in this thread that has got your running 90 miles an hour.
1
CurtisMSP BigBrowner - a day ago
Good cop / bad cop, right?
3
KT Pridgen CurtisMSP - a day ago
I want them to converse with each other. I like the idea of Tony frantically log
ging in and out of Disqus accounts to try to convince us he's not both of these
characters. :P
3
wordvixen KT Pridgen - 13 hours ago
I'm actually surprised that he isn't using multiple devices to do just that. Or
having Courtney log in as someone just to switch up the voices a bit.
Guest KT Pridgen - a day ago
I know. I was married to him for 12 years NOTHING and I mean NOTHING worked him
up more than a disparaging word on the internet. He made me go after Ken Silva b
ecause he busted his twisted theology. He sits back and sends his pawns to fight
for him. An NPD can not handle the slightest criticism so you can imagine my ho
lding the ugly truth must be destroyed.
Guest Guest - a day ago
One of life's great ironies is that Ken Silva and I became close friends. He wou
ld call and email about once a month just to pray and check in on me and the kid
s. When the two marriages crap surfaced he really exposed it for the pathology c
oming after the theology that it was to justify an affair. Rest in peace, Ken.
If I were you, I would try to say things that actually matter Julie or Jmac or g
uest or whoever you are in this minute before you change again. Someone needs to
call up some of the reporters who have been covering the Rolling Stones bit abo
ut how sources failed to verify a story before putting it out there and destroyi
ng lives. I'd love to hear if these people are all so sure that what they're pas
sing on is the truth? In the back of their heads are they wondering about you an
d still commenting on here after being warned? I bet with as hot as this is in t
he news right now people would love to hear them explain what lengths they went
to close the gaps.
I am who I am. I make it say guest so my abuser can't AGAIN try and sue me. Even
though he just lost in court two weeks ago. Or are you not looking at civil cou
rt records? Did my abuser conveniently only supply you with cherry picked out of
context family court links without any professional reports or evaluations. Tho
ught so. TRUTH sets me free, BB. What else? BB? Do you comprehend the magnitude
of an NPD diagnosis with "sadistic traits?" Didn't think so.
WHAT PLANET ARE YOU LIVING ON? Every other breath you identify yourself. How is
changing your name back and forth going to do anything? AGAIN, you obviously don
't believe there's a conspiracy theory and someone is collecting information or
you wouldn't be on here doing this SH-T.
1
BB. I have asked you what matters. What do you think about a woman whose husband
has an affair and then covers it up and then becomes violent and then litigates
her for 7 years to shut her up? ANSWER. That matters. More than my brother in l
aws bank account. Bloggers who confidently blogged had all corroborating evidenc
es BB. That's why they refused to delete despite legal threats. TRUTH is the def
ense for law suit threats and well....I have it. Go on....I'm listening.
1
What matters is someone's claims being true. I'm living in poverty (=$350k house
, gym membership, 2 cars, nanny some years, mexico vacation). He's always had th
e best lawyers while i had sh-t (=I had high priced attorneys and a wealthy fath
er to pay for them). He's litigating me to death (=I have filed the exact same #
of motions that he has). He didn't pay child support (=he was never charged wit
h anything not once not ever resembling that). He set me up (=you have a crimina
l record not him). He isn't safe (=all the agencies let him have part time custo
dy of kids on weekends because yeah that's what judges do). WHAT MATTERS IS IF S
OMEONE IS TELLING THE TRUTH OR WHETHER THEY'RE MAKING SO MUCH SH-T UP NO ONE CAN
TELL WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON.
No_6 BigBrowner - a day ago
I'm not directly connected with you, or Julie. I've never met her, never met you
. I've spoken with NBW personally on a business-related matter, and have persona
lly seen Tony about town in Mpls. He's not exactly living a downtrodden life.
BigBrowner No_6 - a day ago
I get that. But I have Google same as you and as soon as I started in on some of
the stuff being said here, Julie's gig was up. This is fear tactics. This is bo
mb and run and people are going to see straight through it. Screen cap this. Cal
l reporters. When it gets this hot, there's something burning.
No_6 BigBrowner - 21 hours ago
What I've seen with my own eyes in the company of my S.O. trumps what you see on
Google. I know more than I let on. A lot more.
"gig is up?" explain?
Guest No_6 - a day ago
He collects rare scotches for God's sake.
1
Define "off the charts" wealth? I qualify for all government services so if my r
elative is wealthy how does that help me exactly? Explain. You DON'T get your ki
ds on government lunches unless you qualify. WE ALREADY HAD THIS CONVERSATION. B
UT I'LL HAVE IT 100 TIMES WITH YOU.
Even though you just said this site is all part of the conspiracy and people sho
uldn't comment because your ex's lawyer is going to sue you, you're just sure of
it, but then you keep talking and talking and talking. You're either losing all
self control and playing right into their hands. Waving the red flag? Or you DO
NT really believe this is a conspiracy and you're running scared.
1
Litigating to death? Yes, I would say the fact that over $500,000 has been spent
in 7 years constitutes litigating to death and anyone with common sense would a
gree.
BigBrowner with 1 follower? If that is your name? Can I call you BB? What do you
think about that fact that I was abused emotionally, physically, spiritually? W
hat do you think about that? 1 VERY simple question.
WHO ARE YOU?! You're "Jmac6301" one second coming on here "I am Julie being talk
ed about" and signing off as Julie. Then suddenly, you're identity changes to "G
uest" and you someitmes talk about yourself in the third person "Julie's brother
in law lost his Senate race" and then wait, there's Julie again, no wait, there
's guest. GUARANTEE THIS IS ALL BEING CAPTURED. All the switching. All the comme
nts that make no sense and pressure other people. I would be embarrassed to be y
our lawyer right now.
wordvixen BigBrowner - 13 hours ago
Yeah, see, this is what I'm talking about with you either being Tony (only a nar
cissist could read very good arguments for the other side and still think they'r
e winning) or just having really poor reading comprehension. Seriously, what's u
p with you and all of the "Ahah! Gotcha!" comments?
Actually, you are incorrect about motions however....that is not my story! My st
ory is about an affair, abuse, cover up and domestic violence.
Off the charts wealth? What?
Caryn LeMur - a day ago
Hi Nadia: I have read your review of this Did God Kill Jesus book. I may read th
e book in order to discern if Tony Jones is returning to the faith, or still cre
ating non-Biblical approaches/concepts.
After all, Tony's "There Are Two Marriages" is a book that continues to bother m
e. - There are no scriptures used by Tony Jones in that small book. - He urges c
lergy to perform a sacramental marriage, and to bless pre-marital sex (that is,
sex prior to the legal marriage) for persons that have the ability to obtain a l
egal marriage license. - Jones himself employed this concept for his own marriag
e, and then, over 2 years later, legally married his second wife. - Jone's openl
y admits that his approach denies over 500 benefits to the married couples. Ther
efore, the "Two Marriages" doctrine would be in defiance of First Timothy 5:8, a
nd his small book is pragmatically urging people to live "worse than an unbeliev
er". I would therefore like to hear your view of "There Are Two Marriages". [It
is always possible that an author has struck out with one book, and now has a go
od base hit with his newest book. However, by hearing your review, I can learn o
f your review methodology and depth.] Sincerely; Caryn LeMur
1
wordvixen Caryn LeMur - 13 hours ago
Totally off topic, but this cracks me up so I want to say it. Jones' two marriag
es concept damns him on either end. If his idea is false, then he cheated on Jul
ie with Courtney. If his idea is true, then he was fornicating with Julie before
he married Courtney. Either one biblically disqualifies him from leadership.
CurtisMSP Caryn LeMur - a day ago
Nadia's comments about Tony's new book are not a review. They are a paid endorse
ment. She won't speak about "There Are Two Marriages" until Tony pays up.
1
Guest CurtisMSP - a day ago
She won't say anything? She sees the 600+ comments and she has nothing to say? T
he canary in the coal mine is that when this issue of real life church abuse lan
ds on a blog it runs up hundreds of comments. Why? Because we have landed on som
ething real and wrong. NO MORE. People are done with minor church celebrities mo
wing over people to get to the next book release, speaking gig, or event. The se
nt enablers are pulling out their scripts and trying tirelessly to shut it down.
...she "cannot possibly have been abused because she has a nanny for her 3 kids,
two jobs and graduate school." She "drives a Mazda....she must not receive gove
rnment help." Those details of my life have been provided directly from my abuse
r to try and discredit the truth....it happened! The affair, the "crazy campaign
," the cover up, the silencing, the death threats and lawsuit threats, the litig
ious law fare is string as ever today! And I have no lawyer. When I get the next
motion in the mail suing me for "lost wages" I will make it viral for all to se
e. I am not afraid and I will not be silenced ever again. Anyone who has joined
financial careers with the NPD is a classic enabler and dare I guess a narcissis
t themselves...devoid of empathy and out for self preservation.
You're running scared. Bring your boys in to push people around and try to make
it stop but I am betting this panic you took on all the sudden means you're worr
ied people are getting to the bottom of this. Try again.
Caryn LeMur CurtisMSP - a day ago
Hi Curtis: yes, in a way, this does read like an endorsement. Begin fair to Nadi
a, I just went to Amazon to find "There Are Two Marriages" by Tony Jones. It app
ears to no longer be for sale. My review recommended the book for some audiences
. My review was also accepted by Amazon and not removed. So, I am sorry to see t
he book is no longer for sale. Here is my review of that book, which in turn, im
plicitly shows my review methodology and depth: ****************************"The
re Are Two Marriages" by Dr Tony Jones********************** I have carefully re
viewed my copy of this book. It avoids all scripture references, and must - beca
use this book is not about the Bible's view of marriage, but rather, this is rea
lly a great insight into why Dr. Jones divorced his first wife, and then married
another woman. Those who hold the Bible in esteem will not be impressed by Dr.
Jones avoiding the scripture, "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and e
specially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than
an unbeliever." [I Tim 5:8]. In this essay (which Dr. Jones declares to be a 'Ma
nifesto'), Dr. Jones urges clergy to perform only a 'sacramental' marriage, and
to allow the state (perhaps years later) to perform a 'legal' marriage. Dr. Jone
s admits to the difficulties of his own divorce, and points out the loss of any
state or federal marriage benefits during the sacramental marriage (by his own c
ount, over 500 benefits) when he married his second wife. He implies that a pers
on can also dedicate this 'denial of benefits' to any suffering people-group (su
ch as he did dedicate to the gay community). If you combine Dr. Jones statements
with I Timothy 5:8, you end up with a book urging clergy to perform a 'marriage
' that allows a believer to 'be worse than an unbeliever'. This is not the direc
tion nor status desired by the gay believing community (of which I am aware). Th
us, in my opinion, Dr. Jones is urging 'church sanctioned pre-marital sex', and
an easier divorce during this 'try before you buy' trial period. Nonetheless, I
do highly rate this book for anyone wishing to write a college/university paper
on the creation of doctrines that sound good, yet pragmatically, deny the Bible'
s commands and guidance for marriages. Bible college psychology majors may also
wish a copy; and also those studying family marriage counseling - as this shows
the incredible length to which a person will go to, in order to justify incongru
ent behavior and/or narcissism behavior patterns. Lastly, and given Dr. Jones is
considered one of the leaders of the Emerging Church Movement, I would also rec
ommend this book for pastors and church-leaders trying to understand where the E
merging Movement is headed in pragmatic terms. *******************
elderberry Caryn LeMur - a day ago

I *just* downloaded "There Are Two Marriages" 6 days ago! Wow, Tony. Some kind o
f clean-up crew you've got going. Oh, well, you couldn't stop me from reading th
e crazy. You *literally* wrote a book full of bad theology in order to legitimiz
e an un-Biblical relationship. That's some intense self-denial.
Guest - a day ago
Nadia is an enabler. The fact she would welcome and sit back with a bowl of popc
orn hoping to help her dear friend (who happens to have interlocking financial t
ies) tee up a "lost wages" lawsuit is disgusting! You call yourself a Pastor and
a feminist?! What a joke. You hung up on me when I reached out to you for help.
Hung up! http://ologsinquito.hubpages.c...
Guest - a day ago
My lawyer told me Simon Trautman (Tonys PR and lawyer) and MSue Wilson his other
$450 an hour lawyer are fearing up for the next battle. Next up is "suing for l
ost wages" Kandace and enablers are here trolling for exhibits. How do you know
Julie? Defamation suits. THIS is what narcissist do. Kandace is gathering her li
st McCarthy style so Tonys team of lawyers can further threaten, Sue and intimid
ate. What IS the defense for defamation? The truth...and I have it.
Kandace Guest - a day ago
I hope that doesn't end up being true, but I never know what will happen next. I
will make a note to follow up and share here if Tony's lawyer does sue you for
lost wages. In what way have you impacted his wages? Did he lose a job after the
divorce?
1
BigBrowner Kandace - a day ago
Don't let people get into your head. They know a lot of stuff came out yesterday
that looks bad on all of them. That's why they're suddenly all trying to come a
fter you. If people tell you not to ask questions about them talking about these
allegations all over the internet, Sh-t. Write their names down. Screencap that
sh-t. YOUR MUST BE ASKING THE RIGHT QUESTIONS.
KT Pridgen BigBrowner - a day ago
Ummm... who came after her? Politely saying I no longer believe she is a real pe
rson is hardly coming after her. I encourage her to screencap things. I'm not su
re when not believing someone on the Internet is real became a crime or even a s
ocial faux pas.
BigBrowner KT Pridgen - a day ago
Politely I said I no longer believe she is a real person? I hope you don't call
yourself an advocate for people on the margins because you suck at it. You alrea
dy said you don't know Julie and yet you're willing to go after some person for
just asking questions even though you all supposedly don't believe in silencing.
ADD KT PRIDGEN TO THE LIST OF PEOPLE who participated this whole last two days
and read all of these problems with the allegations, some that are googleable an
d some that can be found through links provided, and is still standing here tell
ing people about Julie's allegations and calling anyone who calls her bluff fake
. I suppose you want to give out your home address here? The names of your kids?
If there really is a reporter looking into this, you'd be on my list.
KT Pridgen BigBrowner - a day ago
Yes. I politely said I thought her profile was fake. I told her that I understan
d why she would not want to give out identifying information, but that unfortuna
tely, not doing so meant that I couldn't take her at her word. It's the Internet
, after all. Please quote where I "went after her." Thanks! Have a reporter look
into me, that's fine. I live an exceptionally boring life. And no, I won't give
out my address (and I don't have kids). But I'll link you to my master's thesis
! And there's pretty clear evidence of my existence online.
1
clearly, you DO know and want that to happen next. you are so not fooling me or
anyone else who has experienced the machine.
I understand you've been hurt, but not everyone is part of a conspiracy. It's ju
st not true and it doesn't matter how many times you say it.
1
That's weird, "Not everyone is part of a conspiracy" is verbatim Team NPD speak.
Heard it for years, especially when I pull back the curtains on the mighty and
powerful NPD Oz. We have definitely left Kansas. Kandace....I am a survivor! Nuc
lear war cannot take me out after what I have been up against. You are going to
have to do better than pretend to be a reporter to get Exhibit A from me. Team N
PD is notorious for hauling me into court and losing with reams of blog posts an
d comments. There is nothing that enrages an NPD more than a disparaging comment
. It's called narcissistic rage and it is a clinical event. Call me Kandace. He
or Nadia will give you my number. They have them and you know them so it will be
easy.
Nuclear war? I understand you're frustrated, but you really are misreading who I
am and why I engaged this. I think it's been good to hear what led people to be
come advocates for you.
1
Kandace. You have failed to mention anything regarding my story. You are solely
obsessed with trying to discredit people who support and believe me. Who does th
at? And why?! It is highly suspect. And, AGAIN call me. Let's chat. I'll tell yo
u every last nasty dirty adulterous domestic violence detail.
If you really believed Kandace was a fake person and your husband was using this
board to gather info for a lawsuit, you wouldn't leave comment after comment pl
aying into their hands. It's obvious you're starting a fear campaign. GO AHEAD.
Keep going. Make sure everyone is crystal clear on how desparate you are so they
go through these comments with a fine tooth comb to see what info is coming out
that's got you so upset.
KT Pridgen Kandace - a day ago
Kandace, if you want to get everyone's point of view, why have you not contacted
Julie?
Kandace KT Pridgen - a day ago
I've answered that several times, KT. I have not sent any emails myself, only we
lcomed others including directly inviting Julie to email me. I also have seen th
at Julie's story is well documented on DH, TWW, RLS, etc. But Brad Sargent's dia
gnosis left a few gaps people were asking questions about and this is why I soug
ht to find the missing information. I believe that it is worthwhile to answer pe
ople's questions and that it could produce beneficial results.
1
Because she set up a fake email. She cannot send from it as that would leave a t
rail. She is here to gather exhibits for Simon Trautman who TOLD my lawyer the n
ext campaign is the "lost wages" campaign....watch and wait and I will make cert
ain to post all litigious law fare activities in real time.
We will watch and wait and if it doesn't happen it will be just one more hole in
your unraveling story. I SAY IT AGAIN: Read all the comments here, people. It's
enough to scare someone making false allegations as Julie will continue to prov
e to you by leaving a million comments right after saying no one should comment
because her husband is setting all this up and it's all part of this big conspir
acy she's been telling us about with the poverty and the custody charges that we
ren't real.
"I hope he doesn't sue you... Now please tell me exactly how you have caused Ton
y to lose wages." Are you serious? Even worse is Nadia is allowing this to happe
n on her own blog.
KT Pridgen CurtisMSP - a day ago
Yeah, "Kandace" (XianAtty?) is looking more and more suspicious. It reminds me A
LOT of a pretty professional troll/scammer I've done reading on. The same tacti
cs/voice/etc. You learn to recognize it. Kandace, will you link us to your thesi
s if you are so open about your identity?
I have already spoken with a couple people on here and it is okay with me if you
or others question my identity. I think that all of us should questions any str
angers speaking on this, myself included. You certainly may choose to disregard
my opinions or approach. I considered giving even more information about myself
earlier as it relates to this story in a sensitive way, but my partner is not co
mfortable with that because boundary-setting is an important part of online acti
vism. I know that might not be good enough for you, but it's where I am for now.
1
whats your number? you gave a fake email and name but I think it is fair for all
to see if you are more than a sent enabler. What's your Facebook? Twitter? Wher
e are you at grad school with hours of free time to help an abuser build a lawsu
it?
"I have already spoken with a couple people on here and it is okay with
me if you or others question my identity. I think that all of us should
questions any strangers speaking on this, myself included. You certainly
may choose to disregard my opinions or approach." The funny thing is that this i
s the exact tactic the other fake person used to dismiss questioning. Oh well. I
don't think it matters. I'm pretty sure at this point, no one thinks you're rea
l except the person(s) behind the 10 other Disqus accounts created for this conv
ersation, ha ha.
It's such complete and utter BS. She refuses to contact me because legally she n
eeds intel to be freely sent to her and not be that she solicited it. This ain't
my first NPD lawsuit rodeo Kandace....In fact, I stopped counting after 13.
1
Here's an idea. Stop going back and forth between I'm Julie and I'm guest. You'r
e dive bombing this conversation. Selling fear. And then taking off. You're doin
g yourself in.
KT, I don't know you, but I want to ask you an honest question. Are you the kind
of person who would say this even if you felt there was a possibility that I mi
ght be someone drawn to the topic of abuse because I had experienced it and who
had pursued this field because I wanted to make a difference? Are you really so
sure that everything is a conspiracy and there are no good hearted or well meani
ng (or equally broken) people in the world who could come on and want to lend a
hand? I am a pretty strong person, but it's...difficult to process your change o
f tone here and it just seems unnecessarily hurtful and a bit surprising given o
ur earlier exchanges.
1
Didn't you just say you would "not continue to question anyone else in the comme
nts"
Kandace CurtisMSP - a day ago
Yes, I said other than summarizing what people shared so far, I would not contin
ue with my original intentions to ask people to explain their real-life connecti
ons with Julie or Tony unless Nadia answers first.
1
Why in the world would it be pertinent to know real life connections? Hmm....bec
ause for a lawsuit for slander and libel she needs to try and prove that there w
as an an internet campaign of sorts. Do not talk to this sent pawn. She works fo
r a diagnosed NPD. Ask David Hayward the legal threats to get him to delete his
mega thread that included many people APOLOGIZING for proliferating the "bat shi
t crazy" campaign. Enablers of an NPD that I had never met "in real life" THAT i
s what Kandace should be investigating. But alas, she has an agenda and a case t
o build.
I think we all see EXACTLY why people should be asking about your real life conn
ections. He doesn't have criminal charges, you do. But wait it was the police wh
o are part of the conspiracy with the judges and the child welfare agency and th
e people who live in your town and who are keeping you in the poverty of a $350k
house with two cars, "sometimes" a nanny, a gym membership, and vacations to Me
xico. We've all read everything said here. If you had a real friend in this bunc
h, they'd tell you you're playing right into everyone's hands right now.
I don't think you are a real person. I think you are someone who has created a D
isqus account. I might be wrong, but I've learned to trust my BS meter, especial
ly since there are several things you've done that raise fake profile red flags
for me. You have no reason to be offended if you are real. My frustration is not
with Kandace Brenner but with a person who would create (probably multiple) fak
e accounts online just to question, in a variety of ways, the integrity of an ab
use victim. It is totally your prerogative not to offer identifying information
online, but unfortunately, that also means that you cannot prove you are real wh
en people doubt your existence. Give and take, and all that.
1
Okay. This is frustrating, but I do understand the obstacles here. I myself have
some trust and paranoia that's triggered with quite a few people here in the la
st day or so. I understand the give and take and I won't say I wouldn't be simil
arly doubtful in your shoes. It's hard, but yes. Life definitely gives and takes
and we can't change that. Thanks for being honest.
2
I don't care if she answers, I just didn't understand. As I said, I will summari
ze but I'm waiting for Nadia. Apparently I'll be waiting a while... In the mean
time, my approach may be different from you, but I have the right to express my
ideas.
1
You have demonstrated no ability to understand facts that are plainly available
for anyone to read. What is your interest in coaxing people into making statemen
ts that are actionable against them in court?
1
I admit I have no idea how others involved could use the content, but I have bee
n honest about my intentions from the beginning. A lot of people have looked int
o the sources who spoke as Tony's supporters, but when I saw people raising ques
tions about what drew Julie's most avid supporters to post about it, there was n
o research out there.
1
You can't research something that doesn't exist. But if you troll long enough, y
ou might extract a few nuggets that will be useful in court. This blog is not ab
out you. You've already demonstrated you have nothing to add to the conversation
.
Guest CurtisMSP - a day ago
It's now comical!
1
You're an idiot Kandace. Honestly. How stupid do you think people are? You have
been sent here McCarthian-style to get names and connect dots to help build the
case. You are an enabler. I repeatedly told you to contact me directly if you ar
e sincere and yet you refuse. He has sued me and lost countless times. The defen
se for defamation of character is the truth. And I have it.

He just lost two weeks ago when he tried to have a harassment restraining order
put on me to gag me from telling my story. Simon Trautman his lawyer lost. Simon
praises his book on Amazon comments. Clearly having drank the kool-aid. I think
I literally saw him blow steam out of his ears when his lawyer said, "I withdra
w." His face was rage-red! Make no mistakes...this person wants me obliterated f
rom the planet. Last year at a conference he told a stranger he would like his e
x-wife murdered. He has settled for litigation murder. I do not have a lawyer. I
cannot afford one. What a do have is the truth. He will never win any defamatio
n lawsuit because of it. I hold the truth and that really does free me.
Well I don't know if you're following but I agreed with Curtis a couple hours ag
o about Curtis and others waiting to respond to my questions until Nadia respond
s and I then posted the same questions for Nadia. I'll summarize what people who
have responded so far when I get the chance, but I'm not going to continue to q
uestion anyone else in the comments (will still respond to emails) since it crea
tes a weird imbalance that Nadia won't respond.
1
this is weird....you acting like a reporter....not. buying. it. but kudos to tea
m NPD for creativity.
3
As I clarified earlier when you asked, I am not a reporter and never claimed to
be. I think it only helps to understand the whole story from every angle we can.
1
Austin Franklin Thomas Kandace - a day ago
What angle are you "investigating" that hasn't been investigated yet? Your comme
nts on this blog just seem...weird. I can't figure out what you're trying to acc
omplish. I think it's already pretty clear to anybody who is interested what is
going on, and how each person in this discussion is connected to the concerned p
arties. It's not that hard to figure out. There's nothing to investigate.
1
Guest - a day ago
http://www.nakedpastor.com/201...
1
Austin Franklin Thomas - a day ago
This is absolutely the creepiest and most strange online discussion I've ever re
ad. The silence on this matter from people who are closely involved and habitual
ly quick to chime in on everything else church-related (like when a friend's boo
k comes out) is deafening, and I think damning. What excuse do RHW, NBW and othe
rs have of not responding to these allegations? It's crazy to me.
6
CurtisMSP Austin Franklin Thomas - a day ago
Sorry, this is not a discussion blog. This is a book and conference marketing /
lawsuit trolling blog. If you want discussion, go somewhere else.
1
Kandace - 2 days ago
Curtis below made the suggestion that I should ask Nadia (a Tony supporter*) the
same questions I asked of those who post allegations as supporters of Julie (li
ke David). I am primarily trying to fill in holes raised by questions asked in t
he thread that have NOT been covered and I do know that Nadia has already been l
ooked into and named in Sargent's lists and a few videos etc., but I don't see h
ow it hurts to ask her to respond as I am sure she reads these comments. Nadia,
if you are comfortable responding, do you know Tony or Julie personally? Have yo
u interacted with either of them in person or has it been digital/phone communic
ation? How long have you known Tony and to what extent? In case you haven't been
reading, KT, Tim W-B, Danica, and some others have been transparent to share th
ey do not have any real-life experience of Tony or Julie, but come to this conve
rsation because they support abuse victims. I've asked David Hayward similar que
stions. Thank you. *Edited based on the constructive criticism below.
1
nakedpastor Kandace - a day ago
I think Julie would agree with me that I'm not one of the "supporters of Julie"
as you suggest, but a supporter of safe spaces for anyone to share their experie
nces of being abused, shamed, and silenced. If the shoe fits, wear it. If Julie
identifies as one of those then that's her right and privilege.
BigBrowner nakedpastor - a day ago
WHY DIDN'T YOU ADD A LINK ASKING PEOPLE TO PAY TO YOUR ARTWORK OR TO BE PART OF
YOUR GROUP THAT COSTS $7 A MONTH LIKE YOU DID ALL THE OTHER TIMES, DAVID HAYWARD
? There's profit in every one of these posts for you. It's right down there in t
he link at the bottom of your posts. $$$$$$$ Keep his work alive, folks. Hate TO
NY JONES, check out these allegations, buy my art, pay me every month.
nakedpastor BigBrowner - a day ago
haha. like i said above, I'm offering you a free print of your choice as a gift.
my blog nakedpastor makes no money at all. ironically, NBW's does. I know becau
se i used to blog under this patheos network. so... FREE GIFT BigBrownNoser. Jus
t for you. Take your pick.
Ragnarok BigBrowner - a day ago
This is by far the funniest comment yet.
CurtisMSP Kandace - 2 days ago
Perceived supporter? Nadia says right in this post that "I will honestly be refe
rring people to Did God Kill Jesus? for decades to come." That is not perceived
support. That is direct, public support, in writing. Sometimes a person reveals
their bias by trying too hard to sound neutral.
1
Kandace CurtisMSP - 2 days ago
I edited this based on your feedback.
1
If you can't even get a basic fact about Nadia's support for Tony right, you eit
her haven't done the research you claim you have done, or you are intentionally
trying to portray people as neutral who are known, in fact, to be non-neutral. E
ither option doesn't bode well for your proposed research project.
1
KT Pridgen Kandace - 2 days ago
Perceived Tony supporter? She had a support statement for Tony on the Scribd sit
e until the day Tony removed it. I think it would be a good idea for you to real
ly familiarize yourself with this situation before you start acting as if you ar
e an expert. It sounds like you are just stumbling onto it and don't have a good
understanding of who said what and when. It's complex and the information is sc
attered. I would start with David Hayward's blog, RL Stollar's blog, the Wartbur
g Watch, and the Diagnosing Emergent blog. You will also want to read Tony's ini
tial response to the situation. Most of the other stuff written by his supporter
s has been scrubbed, but that stuff may be available on some of these other blog
s. I would be giving you a more even-sided reading list if, as I mentioned, Tony
's side hadn't scrubbed much of what's been said. EDIT: And I'm only saying this
because it seems like you are unfamiliar with some of the basic information on
how this has all played out-- i.e. not knowing that NBW has specifically support
ed Jones against abuse allegations and not being familiar with what Julie's supp
orters have said in the past about why they are speaking out and what threats th
ey've faced.
4
Kandace KT Pridgen - 2 days ago
I have read those blogs in detail, but missed that tweet among the few things sh
e said. I have modified comment above to reflect the correction. Thanks for the
link. Teamwork. :)
1
Adrenalin Tim KT Pridgen - 2 days ago
Just to add to this, Brother Maynard has copies of the statements of support fro
m Sarah Cunningham, Phyllis Tickle, Phillip Clayton, Kathy Helmers, Joesph Edelh
eit, John Vest, Randy Buist, Pete Rollins, Courtney Perry, Rachel Swan, Troy Bro
nsink, Doug Pagitt, and Brian McLaren here. (I don't know if NBW did not write o
ne, or if it was not archived, or what.)
KT Pridgen Adrenalin Tim - 2 days ago
It may have been a support tweet as opposed to a statement. Some of the stuff co
llected was in the form of tweets or other social media efforts. I'm (now) 95% s
ure she had something up. If not, whoops. I'd feel stupid. :P EDIT: Oh! This was
in my browser history: https://storify.com/TruthAbout... Obviously, it goes now
here now, but it means she did have a message up. I'm mostly just glad I'm not g
oing crazy!
1
Adrenalin Tim KT Pridgen - 2 days ago
Got it! I dug up a cached version of the page.
Message Received From Nadia Bolz-Weber, 01.28.15
I love your honesty...your devotion to your family... Emailed to lovefortony@gma
il.com
It's not much, but given the date, that email address (Which, um.), and the Trut
hAboutTony Twitter/Storify/Scribd campaign, it's not difficult to put it into co
ntext as a statement of full support, just as much as the others.
1
KT Pridgen Adrenalin Tim - 2 days ago
THANK YOU. Teamwork, FTW. And... ugh. That right there is a message from a sycop
hant. EDIT: Full text of the message-- "I love you, Tony. I love your honesty, y
our disarming wit, your devotion to your family, and your theological mind." *ga
g* Maybe NBW is looking for a second spiritual husband.
1
That's funny! "Spiritual wife" crap made me realize I was no longer in Kansas bu
t entered the Oz-like world of a narcissist. I dared to pull back the curtain an
d for that I must pay. I hold the truth and that terrifies and enrages the NPD.
"I'll tear your head off" was said and I believe if given the opportunity he abs
olutely would.
1
Someone down the feed asked about me and I was glad for the reminder because I'v
e been meaning to answer that. My name is Kandace Brenner. I am a graduate stude
nt and also a wife and mother of two small children who lives in California. I d
id my Masters thesis on Activism in a Digital Age. As I disclosed early on, I do
not know Tony or Julie. I noticed several commenters raised questions about the
group of people who are continually posting these allegations online and when I
went to research this, first on Sargent's detailed page and then on the others,
I found plenty of people have looked into the sources of information from Tony
supporters, but those who are supporting Julie have not been asked similar quest
ions about what led them to the conversation. It it possible some of them will h
ave firsthand information that hasn't come out yet. I've been grateful for Danic
a, KT, Tim W-B and the others who've been comfortable sharing they don't know Ju
lie, but friendship, a heart for activism, and abuse experiences have given them
a desire to assist Julie.
1
Did you/are you doing your graduate studies under your maiden name, then?
1
Hey KT, I pretty much answered this just a little bit below in my comments to Ge
orge about a half hour ago. :) You must be thinking along the same lines.
Thanks, hadn't seen that!
1

No problem!! :)
Kandace Kandace - 2 days ago
Oh also, sorry to reply to my own comment, but I did provide my email address do
wn the thread if anyone wants to contact me.
nakedpastor - 2 days ago
I drew a cartoon and wrote a post in response to this:
"Is this about Tony Jones vs Julie McMahon or about the abuse of power?
www.nakedpastor.com/2015/04/is...
9
Kandace nakedpastor - 2 days ago
Welcome back, David and thanks for sharing this link! I was wondering since your
name has been brought up a few times and since you've been one of the people wh
o operates under your real identity, if you'd be willing to share your backstory
with Julie. People have asked whether you know Julie or were ever her pastor in
a brick and mortar congregation in the same city or if you've developed a conne
ction based on things like online and phone interactions? Did you know Tony and
Julie when they were married or divorcing etc? I haven't wanted to comment on th
ese things because I don't think it's fair to speak for someone else, but it has
n't seemed like you had anything to hide so I thought you might be comfortable s
haring what interests or passions might have led you to adopt the role you have
in this discussion?
1
nakedpastor Kandace - a day ago
I've adopted no role at all. The only thing I've done is provide and protect saf
e spaces for survivors who have been silenced to share their experiences. That's
what I do. In fulfilling that role, I've made friends and I've also made enemie
s. Whether I've met these people you mention face to face or online is immateria
l. I believe these questions are all flack to distract from the real issue that
is now well publicized... that there are serious abuses of power intent on silen
cing its victims.
2
Jmac6301 Kandace - a day ago
Actually no one asked but you, Kandace. This is her feeble attempt to discredit
me. Posturing as some sincere interested neutral party but what she would like t
o determine is if my supporters know me in really life and pointing to that as s
ome litmus test. I offered fur her to contact me...that's not what she's interes
ted in. Her angle is to try and discredit me. Now she will say that is untrue.
1
You are certainly free to ask, but I don't understand your line of reasoning. Wh
at does David Hayward have to do with Tony Jones' abuse if power, other than Dav
id was one person who refused to delete comments from his blog? Nadia is doing t
he same thing -- leaving all comments up. So what does that have to do with Tony
's abuse if power?
I have seen several documents and videos which investigate Nadia's connection to
Tony and question their interlinked profit streams. If Brad or anyone else answ
ered the similar questions about David, please let me know, but the point is to
fill in the holes in the information available.
1
I don't think David has received any money from Julie, or is bound to any contra
ct with her, in a manner that is parallel with Nadia and Tony. But I guess David
could clarify that, if that is your question.
3
KT Pridgen CurtisMSP - 2 days ago
On the contrary, he's received legal/financial threats for continuing to host co
nversations that are critical of Tony Jones.
3

These are both good points and a part of why, only if David is comfortable, I am
sure people would love to hear about his role.
What you've learned about Nadia -- did you learn it from Nadia directly, or from
other sources? I think David has explained himself quite completely on his own
blog. If you are not getting answers from Nadia, on Nadia's own blog, what makes
you think anyone else should answer your questions here?
Other people independent of Nadia did an investigation of Nadia and included her
on lists of affiliates and at least one video. I have not seen any independent
source ask David the same questions but I might be mistaken. In any case, I am n
ot a big fan of call out articles that go after someone so I prefer to ask David
himself to respond to these questions.
He's been open about his role. He's talked about threats of litigation often. Mo
st of the people commenting have been open about their roles. That's what I don'
t get. I'm not sure why you need researchers when you can just Google and read t
hrough the billions of pages of people talking about this issues which often con
tains the reasons why they support Julie.
1
Totally. That's why I suspect he will be willing to speak for himself, which is
always my preference.
Given your preference, and since this is Nadia's blog and she brought up the top
ic, I think it is fair to ask Nadia to answer your questions first, and we will
all follow suit from there.
1
Sounds good, I will post that above.
I'll help you find the stuff he's already said about the situation and himself.
(Sorry, it's a rude joke site-- I'm actually using it because it's a nice, short
URL to post here and give you the advanced search results that you need. I'm no
t intending it to be the passive-aggressive statement it's usually meant as): ht
tp://lmgtfy.com/?q=julie+mcm...
1
Thanks I'll check this out and see if it answers these specific questions while
we wait to see if David responds and desires to speak for himself. And thanks fo
r being sensitive, but I see it as a form of genuine help.
She a troll working for Tonys $450 an hour lawyer and his hired PR firm Simon Tr
outman who just lost in court 2 weeks ago when they tried to sue me for commenti
ng and telling my story. Simon praises his book on Amazon. This is a set up. Sui
ng for "lost wages" is up next.
Guest - 2 days ago
http://ologsinquito.hubpages.c...
2
Guest - 2 days ago
George what is your connection to my abuser? Or are you one in the same?
Alan Molineaux Guest - 2 days ago
Julie - it may be missed by some who are new to this situation but there is a di
stinct pattern in the way that some treat you. Firstly, they appear to be dispas
sionate and rational - a method often the preserve of the powerful and advantage
d. Second, there seems to be a party line being supported (even the use of the l
anguage is consistent with the party line). Those who have read much of what has
been said by you will see that it is consistent but written in the moment. I ha
ve often said 'PR and propaganda happen when you get many people to say the same
thing in a similar way. Protest is when the same thing is said by many people i
n different ways' George can present his unemotional assessment but many of us c
an see how he is deflecting from the real issues.
6
Kandace Alan Molineaux - 2 days ago
I think this is interesting insight worth considering. I also think it's importa
nt that we don't ask everyone to assume that if someone disagrees with you, they
must be riding a party line or participating in propaganda. It seems to suggest
that you're invalidating everyone else's experiences and certainly some of the
people here are voicing their own independent thoughts even if you question othe
rs.
1
You're extremely transparent Kandace. The jig is up. You've tied yourself to a s
inking ship. The first clue was your refusal to contact me directly.
Alan Molineaux Kandace - 2 days ago
Thanks Kandice. I take your push back and appreciate it. To explain further I am
suggesting that none of us are free from the influence of our constituency but
that some stories are told in a more free flowing way (ie not just buying into t
he party line by reissuing generic statements). To me the direction of the criti
que is important. A push 'upward' against someone in power should be allowed mor
e freedom than a push 'downward' towards a person being (or claiming to be) oppr
essed or abused by someone in power. Many of the comments by those who are gener
ally supportative of TJ want to present this as an equal but opposite argument b
etween two equal parties. It is not and we need to burst that mythical bubble. H
ope that helps. Al
3
christop1 Kandace - 2 days ago
I think it is pretty clear that most of the accounts that are speaking in suppor
t of Tony are being directed by the one person (particularly because the same ph
rases and arguments and methods of favouring characters seem to be getting used)
, and it comes across as pretty creepy.
1
George christop1 - 2 days ago
Estimate the number of distinct, real people with no connection to Julie who sup
port her and are willing to say so online. Now imagine for a moment that there a
re a comparable number of distinct, real people with no connection to Tony who h
ave a different perspective and are willing to say so online. Imagining some nef
arious mastermind behind the scenes directing it all like a Bond villain gives T
ony too much credit, I think. I'm not being directed. I'm just a person trying t
o work through what I've read, who thinks that this situation doesn't read as pe
rfectly clear-cut. If y'all can't imagine people doing that and not automaticall
y coming to your conclusions, that's a failure of imagination on your part. Besi
des, if it is true that we live in a patriarchy where victims are routinely disb
elieved, then of course there are lots of distinct, real people who aren't ready
to fall in line behind an accuser. To imagine that all this doubt must really b
e the work of one guy is -- I dunno -- wishful thinking? I suppose it would be e
asier if there were just one villain in a secret lair, who when defeated, would
cause the entire system to crumble.
1
Alan Molineaux George - 2 days ago
George - I think you might be missing the point somewhat. The very mimetic theor
y that TJ teaches (and one that I support) shows that the emulation of our heroe
s is part of the deal. Therefore the direction of support is driven towards the
powerful rather than the oppressed. In this regard it is possible for some one t
o mount a PR campaign from a safe distance and rely on the willingness of enable
rs to continue the narrative.
1
CanIbeFrank christop1 - 2 days ago
I don't think that's "pretty clear" at all. I'm on no one's side other than to s
ay that rarely is one person 100% the abuser and the other person 100% the victi
m in domestic dispute cases, at least in those where I personally know the peopl
e I can say that (and I don't personally know TJ and JM). I think some of the an
onymity is due to the attacks on anyone who doesn't declare 100% support of one
particular side, accusing them with "silencing" and "siding with the powerful" w
hen it's more likely an issue of acknowledging that this is a very complicated,
interwoven, sad situation for all involved.
1
So you don't think 15+ brand new Disqus accounts specifically created to comment
here and almost exclusively posting things critical of Julie and supportive of
Tony is suspicious? At all? But you are suspicious enough about the monetary con
nections between Julie and her supporters to solicit the help of retired cops an
d professional investigators? Well, okay then.
4
I do think some are fakes on both sides actually. I also think there are some re
al people out there who probably didn't have Disqus accounts and didn't feel cou
rageous enough to use their real Facebook identity. I think we have to evaluate
the source of all our information and make personal choices about what seems cre
dible to us.
1
So, the all two (?) of the new accounts that seem to be supporting Julie are fak
e and a few of the twelve (?) that seem to be supporting Tony are fake? I think
it's far more likely that the ratio of fake-to-real is close to even. I'm not su
re why people are afraid of folks who are supporting Julie. As far as I know, no
one supporting Julie has threatened to litigate anyone into poverty for speakin
g their opinion or allowing others to speak their opinion.
2
I'm not sure why they're afraid either. I actually had a fairly well known celeb
rity-Christian-type email me and tell me they were afraid of Stephanie too, whic
h surprised me. Good points.
2
BS
George Kandace - 2 days ago
Hey Kandace, they're Google-stalking you over on the SCCL Facebook group -- tryi
ng to look up your masters thesis and other personal information about you. This
is exactly why I made a dummy account. I don't want SCCL members discussing my
identity online and emailing my employer asking if they know I "support an abuse
r" or something like that.
1
Alan Molineaux George - 2 days ago
Have you given your true identity to anyone involved in this situation? Perhaps
you can give it to Kandace and she can at least confirm that you are not directl
y connected to TJ
CurtisMSP George - 2 days ago
Its not any more stalking than Kandace asking about SCCL folks here. People are
free to go to both places and read anything they want.
1
Kandace George - 2 days ago
Thanks for being sensitive to that, George. It actually doesn't bother me. I thi
nk all of us have a right to learn as much about those speaking as they are comf
ortable sharing. I didn't take my partner's name until 2013 bc we missed the fir
st window in CA, so I don't think there's anything to find under Brenner anyways
. I would honestly be concerned if people WEREN'T evaluating strangers making cl
aims online. That's the whole point of this and I shouldn't be an exception! :)
1
George Guest - 2 days ago

I read one of his books once. Saw this mentioned on a different blog, read about
it, became fascinated by the soap opera-ness of it all, particularly because of
my painful past with a friend who routinely threatened suicide. I suppose I'm w
orking through my issues with that pain. It was utterly excruciating to have to
live in constant fear of whether something I did or failed to do would make her
take that step. I believe you suffered in your marriage. I believe Tony was wron
g to make himself physically and emotionally unavailable to you, particularly th
e cheating. But because of my past with my suicidal friend, reading about those
suicidal threats of yours is especially triggering, and I empathize instinctivel
y with victims of such behavior.
Guest George - 2 days ago
Wanting to disappear is not suicidal threat. I was not suicidal, George. I was i
n despair realizing I was married to a human devoid if empathy. It was a nightma
re. The gas lighting. I've experienced hell. It is 12 years with a sadistic narc
issist. Who are you going to believe? The one with a diagnosis with the hallmark
of a pathological liar or the victim with the police reports, sex emails, psych
evals, custody evals, discernment letter, apologies from cult members who never
met me but heard I was insane? I'm done defending myself. I hold the truth. He
knows! My kids know! And I know. Doug Pagitt knows too. He is an abusive liar an
d that will never go away no matter how hard he tries and his well groomed follo
wers try. The truth remains.
4
SHPryor1 - 2 days ago
I still have mixed feelings and am wavering on where I stand on all this, but th
ink the most valuable things to come out of this are as follows:
1. I was surprised Tim Wilson-Brown doesn't actually know anyone he's been so ve
hemently accusing and defending. That shocked me. Australia's a long way away to
be an expert on a bunch of strangers.
2. Julie has born the responsibility of raising children alone with majority cus
tody, but she's not the typical single mom since she directly said she doesn't e
ven have to pay rent until she'd done with school and leases vehicles and hosts
an aupair and all that.
3. There are at least two people I've seen now who have said their companies inv
estigated this and research led them to question the allegations. I think everyo
ne has a hard time saying this aloud because its so unpopular to question a vict
im, but it surprised me still how confident they seemed based on whatever they'd
found.
4. More light is needed. Many times people suggested others should stop asking q
uestions about certain topics. More light needs to be shed on that. It was good
to see some people being honest about how they don't know Julie at all, but also
talking about some of their heart for abuse victims that led them to join in.
1
wordvixen SHPryor1 - a day ago
"but she's not the typical single mom since she directly said she doesn't even h
ave to pay rent until she'd done with school" Oooh, yup, you're totally right. T
he grandparents should TOTALLY be on the hook to pay for housing for their grown
daughter and her kids instead of, yanno, their actual ex-husband/father who is
certainly making more than enough to provide for the people he's responsible for
. "because its so unpopular to question a victim" Oh. my. god.
CurtisMSP SHPryor1 - 2 days ago
If you want more light, why don't you ask Nadia to chime in? It is her blog afte
r all. I'm sure she has information that would help clarify things.
3
Danica SHPryor1 - 2 days ago
"1. I was surprised Tim Wilson-Brown doesn't actually know anyone he's been so v
ehemently accusing and defending. That shocked me. Australia's a long way away t
o be an expert on a bunch of strangers." And it becomes crystal clear why you've
been phishing for information on Julie's supporters for going on two days now,
Tony. You have been attempting to find a reason (any reason) to discredit and si
lence them. Does it put a major bee in your bonnet, Tony, that for the first tim
e in seven years people beyond your victim's family are starting to believe and
side with her?
3
Danica SHPryor1 - 2 days ago
It's super interesting to me how several different ghost accounts on here have u
sed this same, unusual phrase: "more light". It's almost as if the same person i
s authoring all the words ...
4
CurtisMSP SHPryor1 - 2 days ago
It is not uncommon to read an author's books, participate in their blogs, listen
to their podcast, become a fan, and come to a place where you feel like you kno
w, trust and respect that person. Most authors encourage that sort of relationsh
ip from afar; it is how they make a living. But, when it becomes known that the
author withholds essential information about themselves, the sense if trust by t
he fan is broken. And when it becomes known that the author has used his positio
n of influence to control and silence critics, what was once sincere trust can t
urn into sincere rage. Nobody questions a fans sincerety when they support an au
thor from afar, even though they have never met. Why do you question the same pe
rson's sincerety and credibility when they turn from fan to critic?
2
BMikeThomas - 2 days ago
This is what I mean about think of the children. Did you guys catch BIG BROWNIES
post? There's so many people who are just trying to gloat or push agendas, I gu
ess my agenda is convincing people this isn't helpful and just makes everyone lo
ok bad so I'm not free of motives either, but I'm just saying when people are po
sting stuff with this attitude, things are moving in the wrong direction. Big Br
owner: "Julie turns out to be the daughter or wealthy oil family.
Julie's sister is married to a senator worth tens of millions.
Juliehas or at least had (based on her own admission) a nanny and she
bought/leased SUVs for herself and her nanny by her own admission.
Julie DID go on a Mexican resort vacation while people were raising money for he
r here.
Julie lives in a 350k house in a swanky neighborhood that is owned by her rich p
arents. Tony Jones wasn't actually ever charged by the courts for being in arrea
rs.
Tony didn't litigate Julie into poverty. Actually she filed as many motions
as he did and also had a high priced lawyer from the beginning. I can't even kee
p track of it all but damnnnnnn. Things in Edina seem to
stay in Edina...until they finally find there way to the internet. Go
ahead and keep saying no one should ask questions. The more you call for
silence, the more that seems to come out."
1
Guest BMikeThomas - 2 days ago
I went line for line correcting his false allegations and then he ran away. you
feign you care about the children and then repost false allegations. I gotta say
NBW you have some really sick and twisted fans. May they never have sons or dau
ghters who find themselves in abuse. May they never have children who are abused
. God help them if this is the level of sensitivity and awareness for victims. B
ut, then again....you hung up on me when I sought your help.
1
so why did you just repost it?
BMikeThomas Guest - 2 days ago
To illustrate my point. Everyone here keeps promoting free sharing so it include
s people like this guy.
Well so here we are hours later and still talking in the same circles. This is w
hy I had suggested that maybe we've exhausted the benefit on online communicatio
n about this. I still plead for people to be charitable and think of the childre
n as they type their comments into anonymous oblivion. I saw a few more locals j
oining this conversation and some of what was shared about Julie was not in good
taste in my opinion, but the people who focused on how the court records don't
support all the allegations actually brought some new information and managed to
stay respectful so what do I know? Again, I think this is hurting more and more
people as the comment wars rage on, but maybe in the end I will think Danica is
right and that a lot of new information came out that gave us all some better f
ootholds for understanding this tangled web. It doesn't feel right to me, but cl
early it's going to go on regardless of my feelings.
1
BethAgain BMikeThomas - 2 days ago
I think any mental health professional worth their weight is going to tell you t
hat it isn't good for a kid to witness the very public online trashing of a pare
nt, especially if done even in part by the other parent. Just because they might
have witnessed worse doesn't mean this isn't confusing and humiliating for them
. Just try and remember what it was like to be a young teen or preteen and then
imagine knowing thousands of people are reading this about your parents, includi
ng your peers. Imagine showing up at school, knowing some of the details (that I
won't repeat here) that were released in that psych eval. Your instincts are ri
ght on.
1
Guest BethAgain - 2 days ago
Beth while you are so concerned know for 7 years attempts were made to settle th
is privately. An NPD can't do it. So, I will tell my children to always speak up
loudly wherever abuse is found and do not ever let someone try and silence you.
2
Guest BethAgain - 2 days ago
Nice try Beth. You are recycling from TWW. No, I would say your parent throwing
another parent to the ground and you watching trumps my defending myself from my
abuser any day of the week. I will tirelessly advocate for victims to speak up
even when silencing attempts get desperate such as this one.
Again, word-for-word from the empire playbook. "think of the children" was he wh
en he staged an arrest in front of them? how about the affair? the domestic viol
ence they witnessed? yes, please. think of the children.
1
Tim Wilson-Brown BMikeThomas - 2 days ago
In my opinion, the children have already seen the abuse, and are subject to the
ongoing parental conflict. What is an online discussion in comparison to that?
2
George - 2 days ago
Julie, according to the documents that you released, on multiple occasions you t
ried to control your husband by threatening to kill yourself. You even grabbed h
im by the neck and shoulders and shook him once. You were trying to get him to c
ancel his travel plans. These things throw up red flags to me. Threatening suici
de especially is a classic behavior of emotional abusers. Your defenders say you
were justified in these actions as a means of escaping abuse, but I can't get a
sense of what you were "escaping." This was well before the time Tony pushed yo
u. How were you being abused at the time of your suicide threats? How was your m
ental health at those times? (Yes, this is a throwaway account. I don't want to
be Google-stalked by SCCL people for asking questions that Must Not Be Asked. Bu
t I am sincerely interested in your answers, because I once had an unhealthy fri
endship with a woman who went through a period of threatening to kill herself. I
t was excruciatingly painful, and we weren't even dating: we were only friends.
She was *not* of sound mind at those times, and yet, she recovered and would pas
s any exam with flying colors today.)
1
Stephen M. George - 2 days ago
Man, this is great, it's not popular to ask questions of those who are victims b
ut you sir are a tough enough guy to take on the victim! Good for you! Oh I know
you say "You aren't blaming here" but come on, wink-wink, we can all tell, it's
totally her fault. When you get done here can you stop down to the local woman'
s shelter and we can finally, FINALLY, ask all those women what they did to dese
rve their abuse? They need to know that despite their treatment, they were proba
bly asking for it right? Man, I'm so excited we finally get to let all these sel
f-righteous victims have it! Lets ask them how their mental health was after yea
rs of abuse! Then after that we can go down to the rape crisis center and ask al
l those ladies what they were wearing that was just asking for them to get raped
! Screw this. I'm out. I can't handle this conversation anymore. Julie, I love y
ou and support you and you know where to find me. I can't handle the victim sham
ing and blaming. It's absolutely disgusting. You people easily one of the least
Jesus-like group I've encountered, give me the assholes over at SCCL anyway, at
least they give 2 shits about victims.
3
CurtisMSP George - 2 days ago
Suicide ideation can have many causes, including being the victim of ongoing psy
chological abuse. The fact that someone declares a desire to commit suicide tell
s you nothing about the cause of that ideation. More analysis of the person is n
eeded -- more than can be done by reading blog posts.
Tim Wilson-Brown George - 2 days ago
George, you might have this the wrong way around - what if Julie was being emoti
onally abused for years by someone with diagnosed, untreated narcissistic person
ality disorder? As you've acknowledged, this context changes Julie's reactions i
nto adaptive responses, not initiation or continuation of an abusive relationshi
p. Want confirmation? (Ragnarok as well?) Read the psych reports on Julie and To
ny released by R L Stollar. https://rlstollar.wordpress.co...
George Tim Wilson-Brown - 2 days ago
Tim, I did read those reports and they are clear. Tony didn't cause Julie's beha
vior. From Denise Wilder's psych eval of Julie: "Julie Jones appears to be a hig
hly emotional individual, with a tendency toward dramatic expression of those em
otions, particularly when she believes she has been wronged. These tendencies ha
ve most likely been exacerbated in her marriage to Tony Jones, simply because he
made himself unavailable, both physically and emotionally, and Ms. Jones has fe
lt the need to turn up her emotional volume to gain any response from him. In tu
rn, her dramatic and aggressive expression has most likely exacerbated Tony Jone
s' tendency to keep his emotional distance and act unilaterally rather than addr
ess her emotional needs and negotiate with her. THIS IS NOT TO SAY EITHER HAS CA
USED THE OTHER'S BEHAVIOR. Rather, it seems that, as in many marriages, this cou
ple's pre-existing tendencies have become polarized, with each manifesting a gre
ater degree of the behavior than they might if the other did not behave so oppos
itely."
1
Dee Parsons George - 2 days ago
I would caution everyone who is making a judgement that Julie (or anyone else fo
r that matter) was not suicidal. Even Denise Wilder's report quoted here does no
t make that judgement. There is a big difference between being emotional and bei
ng suicidal. Many suicides have occurred after the escalation, over years, of di
fficult emotions. The break can come quickly: the proverbial "straw that broke t
he camel's back." Also, some people threaten suicide for years, building up the
courage to carry through with the threat. There are parents out there who weathe
red the suicidal threats of their kids, gotten them help and thinking all was no
w well, who are shocked when years down the line they do just that.
3
I think you're splitting hairs between causation and relational polarization (ed
it: reaction). And this section doesn't address abuse at all - that's in various
other sections, where the psych acknowledges evidence of an affair (which Tony
Jones continued to deny), and evidence of physical abuse. There are also detaile
d discussions of Tony Jones' behaviour, that as far as I can tell could be calle
d abusive.
1
George, I am of sound mind. This website is way too glitchy to discuss such a ma
tter. It keeps freezing. I suggest you educate yourself on NPD and abuse. Gas li
ghting and what that diagnosis coupled with the diagnosis of "sadistic" traits e
ntails. I was never suicidal and would never have killed myself not on my darkes
t days. Fed up with my philandering husbandwith 3 kids under age 5 at home 250 d
ays a year and he didn't give a sh*& and called me paranoid and insecure....yes.
I doubt your "concern" for me. Just read the 22 page psych eval. It will give y
ou nightmares.
1
Tim Wilson-Brown Guest - 2 days ago
So I'm not the only one?
Disqus sucks for people on older devices, mobiles, and people who zoom text in.
The Patheos implementation in particular interacts badly with their shitload of
ads.
Talk about the privilege of participating in conversation...
2
Jmac6301 Tim Wilson-Brown - 2 days ago
Disqus is terrible.
1
Ragnarok George - 2 days ago
In which documents that Julie released did you find an account of Julie threaten
ing to kill herself in order to control Tony Jones? Please cite your references.
Guest Ragnarok - 2 days ago
He doesn't have any. This is word-for-word the empire playbook. Every argument t
hrown at me tonight is SCARY word-for-word from my abuser. He has coached his em
pire well. The only problem is....he is an abuser with a diagnosis and he can't
run from that.
2
George Ragnarok - 2 days ago
RL Stollar, from Denise Wilder's psychological evaluation of McMahon: (After the
grabbing-him-by-the-neck-and-shoulders incident) "Mrs. Jones reported telling h
er husband that she felt like she was dying, and wishes she could just vaporize,
that she could simply step off the balcony she was standing on and end her pain
." And there was another incident where she threatened to kill herself in front
of her kids. I am realizing now that was from McLaren's statement on the matter.
I do wonder if it's mentioned in the docs Julie gave Stollar, in the parts Stol
lar chose not to publish.
1
Ragnarok George - 2 days ago
Speaking as one who has read Julie's documents in full, I can attest to the fact
that, no, there is no mention of Julie attempting to manipulate Tony through th
reats of self-harm. The incident you mention is regarding the moment when her ma
rriage was utterly disintegrating before her eyes, and you expect her to be stoi
c? You are literally taking an account of an instant of profound despair, and yo
u're attempting to twist it into support for your spurious claim that Julie enga
ged in a consistent manipulation of Tony Jones via threats of suicide. Is it tru
ly necessary to point out to you that a single expression of despair in the mids
t of that sort of tumult, while serious, also doesn't meet the definition of abu
se? In fact, when one considers the context of not only that one statement but a
lso the things which led up to it, it becomes incredibly difficult to see Tony's
characterization of her statement in any other light than that of pure vindicti
veness and service of self. His interpretation apparently not only seems plausib
le to you but the most plausible of all available interpretations? Tell me, are
you this harsh when interpreting others' meaning and intentions in every aspect
of your life or just online when you don't have to see the person you're attempt
ing to crush? In a perfect world, Julie wouldn't have made that statement, but t
hen in a perfect world Julie wouldn't have been faced with that situation. It's
so telling that so many men wish to focus on a statement such as the one you bri
ng up while utterly ignoring the psychologist's determination that, based on her
evaluations of both parties, Julie McMahon is not mentally ill, Tony Jones has
narcissistic personality disorder (which he admits himself), and that Tony had e
ngaged in a pattern of shaming and manipulation during his attempts to persuade
Julie that she was wrong about the affair he was clearly having at the time. Let
me give you the quote directly from Dr. Wilder's evaluation of Julie: "Each fee
ls betrayed by the other: Ms. Jones by her husband's physical and emotional aban
donment and extramarital affair, Mr. Jones by his wife's rejection of his celebr
ity ministry career. "That being said, Ms. Jones' angry and hurt feelings are no
rmal and predictable under the circumstances. So is her outrage at being told sh
e was mentally ill for (accurately) suspecting her husband was developing a roma
ntic relationship outside the marriage. However, her expression of these feeling
s is poorly regulated and, in its dramatic extremity, counterproductive. A signi
ficant part of the energy behind her angry expression is likely to derive from h
er own prior efforts to convince herself she shouldn't feel angry or suspiciousafter talking herself out of her feelings, finding out that they were justified
makes the feelings even bigger." I know that's a big chunk to deal with, George,
but I have to ask whether or not you took note of the different bases for each
party's grievance? Julie was hurt deeply by the fact that Tony had essentially a
bandoned his family both physically and emotionally in addition to carrying on a
n illicit affair with another woman. Tony was deeply hurt because Julie thought
his celebrity was less important than his family.
3
Again, George. This is all lost on anyone who does not fully understand the intr
icacies of an NPD diagnosis. Clearly, you do not. And your sensitivity towards a
n abuse victim is disgusting. This is part of the problem. Victim blaming instea
d of advocacy. Yes, my husband was having an affair and calling me crazy for kno
wing it! It was god awful. May you never know such evil.
So what if it is?
Context is vital in understanding emotional abuse cases.
And if you've read the psych reports, you've read that Julie was under incredibl
e strain from gaslighting, and temporarily struggling to cope. I think anyone wo
uld under those circumstances.
Guest Tim Wilson-Brown - 2 days ago
There seems to be no shortage of ignorance amongst NBW fan base regarding victim
s of abuse. I am not surprised as I sought her help after my shoulder was torn a
nd she hung up on me.
2
What torn shoulder? From the RL Stollar documents ("Fact #5", From the Hospital
Follow-Up Report on Julie McMahon's Injuries from October 22, 2008): "We did sen
d her for an MRI, which showed NO ROTATOR CUFF TEAR."
1
No one ever claimed a rotated cuff tear...George.
Quoting you, two posts up: "There seems to be no shortage of ignorance amongst N
BW fan base regarding victims of abuse. I am not surprised as I sought her help
after my SHOULDER WAS TORN and she hung up on me." If your rotator cuff wasn't t
orn, what was? Why isn't the tear mentioned in the hospital report?
1
Are you a physician George? My doctor called it a tear in the tissue caused by b
eing thrown to the ground on a cement patio. George. God, I hope you never inter
act with victims. You are not a good person. This is sick what you are doing. Is
n't it interesting you just want to try and discredit me but don't care to discu
ss an affair, cover up, abuse or 7 years of abuse? This is so clearly the attemp
ts to control the narrative. The truth is out and the empire can't stand it! Doc
tors don't give cortisone shots if there was nothing wrong George!
1
Dee Parsons Guest - 2 days ago
Cortison shots indicate a significant injury. Physicians are hesitant to give co
rtisone shots on a routine basis because it increases the risk of osteonecrosis
amongst other things. http://www.mayoclinic.org/test...
2
It is in medical terminology. George. Or should I just address you directly as m
y abuser?
1
You said rotated cuff. It was explained to me and shown in the MRI it is a tear
in my shoulder. Why else would I have been given a series of cortisone shots. Th
e doc reads a medical terminology. It was a tear in the tissue. You sound fright
eningly like my abuser. And nothing like a good person. Why would you try to dis
credit a domestic violence incident?! Who does that?! What could possibly motiva
te such a person? Yuck!
1
bethanyann73 - 2 days ago
It might've helped that this conversation took place on a blog where the host wa
sn't jumping in deleting and correcting people constantly. It seemed to allow so
me new faces to find a voice and share some information we (or at least I) hadn'
t heard yet. The thing about Julie being actually from a wealthy family or havin
g SUVs and vacations and all that isn't relevant to the abuse allegations in the
long run, but I was interested in what Michael had to say about how seriously t
hey researched the allegtions. It was interesting to hear how the actual court d
ocuments differed from some of the perceptions out there. I think the litigation
thing, about how Julie has filed as many motions as Tony, was really interestin
g and so was the fact that Tony was never held in contempt over child support. I
tried the link on the former and those numbers checked out, so that's changed a
portion of how I was thinking about this. This thing is endless.
2
Guest bethanyann73 - 2 days ago
I could not have filed a motion for contempt if he has not reached contempt. San
dra Filipo the county attorney would not have been present in the court room. Yo
u are reading a slice of a large complicated puzzle and without context. I could
not care less if you find me credible. what is interesting is the lengths to wh
ich commenters would like me to be discredited. My abuser and I both know what h
appened and how. That's why he works tirelessly to silence me. 7 years later.
Oh I also wanted to say thanks to Tim Wilson-Brown for his transparency. He is o
ne of the people others have asked about too, I think because of how devoted he
has been to sharing these allegations and I was glad to see his posture as he ca
me in and shared his own story. It sounds like he does not know Julie or Tony or
any of the other participants in this story personally, and has not spent time
with them in real life (which really, in hindsight, seems kind of obvious since
he lives in Australia, but I guess it never hurts to verify). He made it known d
own the thread that he followed a website where these allegations were posted an
d that he'd been a friend of Rachel Held Evans, which led him to ask questions a
bout this on Twitter, but it wasn't from personal experience as much as it was f
rom what he called his unexpected, reluctant position as an online advocate. I r
eally appreciated him clarifying how he got involved. Thanks again, Tim!
3
Tim Wilson-Brown Kandace - 2 days ago
I'm sorry, Kandace, I was unclear.
I had read Rachel Held Evans' blog and learnt from her (less recent) blog posts
how to appropriately handle abuse by believing victims.
I am not her friend, I just follow her on Facebook and used to read her blog. I
think she might have blocked me on twitter, or at least I don't see much from he
r there.
4
Guest Kandace - 2 days ago
Kandace, are you an investigative reporter or do you just pose as one on abuserfriendly blogs? Any legit reporter would answer that question and they wouldn't
go trolling for information on someone else blog. Are you not going to answer my
basic questions? Some have speculated as to your agenda. So I will just ask.
1
Kandace Guest - 2 days ago
I'm not a reporter at all and I'm not posing as one. I just agreed that there wa
s an area we could fill in with more information that no one had covered yet and
I am a big believer in letting in as much light as possible. :) It's been great
to connect with people and hear how they came to this story though.
3
I have been trying to drag this into the light for 7 years. what area needs more
information? obviously, I have a lot of knowledge about the topic.
2
Wow. A girl can't go anywhere around here, can she? I've had some dinner and a n
ap though and am feeling refreshed from my earlier post. I appreciate the encour
aging emails I've received. I can't believe all that has been added. I just spen
t an hour reading Michael's exchange with Julie. I am so thankful he felt courag
eous enough to come on here and share about his company's findings related to th
ese allegations. They certainly added some important questions and highlighted a
few areas where some seemed to be basing their ideas on incomplete research. Hi
s findings from the courts were really important to the fair treatment of all in
this conversation and if you haven't read them, I encourage you to do so. I als
o appreciated Julie interacting with Michael as much as she did. She obviously h
as found her voice and broken free of any silencing and it's good to see her con
fidently sharing her feelings and being heard.
4
Are you going to contact me or not? Let's begin this thorough and diligent inves
tigation. I disagree with you completely that court documents tell the story of
an abuse victim. Especially a diagnosed NPD. Anyone who understands this knows e
xactly what I am talking about. So, if this is you just hammering more Michael-n
arrative. I am out. However, if you are in Minneapolis and actually want to go o
ver this with a fine tooth comb. Let's do this.
3
Oh I am not contacting anyone so far, Julie, and it almost looks like I might no
t need to! We are using already published data to verify what we can and I'm wel
coming others to contact me. A lot of people are voluntarily answering our quest
ions and others have emailed too. You can send me anything you'd like to same as
anyone else and I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to read it! :) Have a great night!
1
But you aren't contacting me? That's strange. Are you in Minneapolis? You are la
unching an investigation and the victim is asking to meet and you say no? Who is
"we?" I am working with writers as well and can save you the hassle of thousand
s of pages of docs and reports. First, are you legit? What publication? Or affil
iation? How are you funded? Why do you care? Again, are you in Minneapolis?
2
Oh sorry if that wasn't clear for some reason. We were just asking people who ha
ve been publishing the allegations to share with us where they were coming from
and how they came to the conversation like Danica, KT, and Tim and others have b
ecause that was something that people were asking about and it wasn't covered in
all the other stuff you posted or that Stollar or Brad or anyone else put up. I
t's not a full blown investigation. We'll leave that for the pros!! xoxo
1
Danica Kandace - 2 days ago
... and who are *you*? Where are *you* coming from? This is honestly the strange
st conversation I have witnessed online in a long time. And that's including the
comment section in a Tea Party page I follow. It feels like one person speaking
using multiple identities. It's just. So. Weird.
4
Stephen M. Danica - 2 days ago
Yeah, this is just fucking nuts. The lengths people are going to to discredit a
victim here is mind blowing. You people make me ashamed to call myself a christi
an.
who is "we?"
1
The people commenting in the thread when we discussed this and those that volunt
eered to help in the thread. :)
1
Interesting. What do you hope to find? And why do you care? I just know there ar
e actual investigative reporters/writers that get paid a lot of money to comb ov
er 7 years of history and wondering whats your angle? You are on NBW blog so obv
iously you are vested in clearing abuse allegations? Or what? Or like Michael wh
o just spent 5 hours trying to discredit a victim. BUT "he doesn't even know him
."
1
Guest Guest - 2 days ago
hello? why do they all go silent the minute I ask to have 100% transparency and
in real life conversation and meetings. Jay Bakker and I had a pleasant in real
life conversation recently. I asked to meet and go over my documents. Nope. Can'
t do it. He has been well groomed by the NPD.
2
No_6 - 2 days ago
What if my analysis and gut is that everyone is a liar in this, to some extent?
I've read virtually everything since it broke last September: NakedPastor, TWW,
Stollar, the works. This cluster cannot be resolved. --False hope gets offered t
o Julie (Hayward, Drury, Parsons)
--Exaggerated celebrity levels everywhere (JoPa group's own PR, those who critic
ize anyone JoPa group but also inadvertently fuel JoPa's inflated sense of self)
--Other avenues left unexplored (not referring to obvious trolls BigBrowner and
drea) Tony rolls how NPD rolls. None of this matters.
2
CurtisMSP No_6 - 2 days ago
You are right that this whole thing can ve explained by NPD. But that doesn't ma
ke the whole thing a lie. It is not a lie that people who tried to speak warning
s were shamed, silenced, deleted and blocked. That is fact, and continues to day
. Sure, that is what NPD does, but the others should know better. This reveals a
flaw in the emergent / celebrity ministry model. With no ecclesiastical authori
ty, a preacher can hide essential information, and do anything they want. Not mu
ch different in operation than Mark Driscoll or Franklin Graham, just different
packaging.
Guest No_6 - 2 days ago
It CAN be resolved if the xian progressives who spout about justice and reconcil
iation actually applied their words to this real life situation instead of runni
ng and hiding. Yes, YOU NBW. They have chosen to enable an abuser and protect th
eir pockets.
1
No_6 Guest - 2 days ago
No. The burden lies on Tony to resolve the harm he has done to you and your fami
ly. This will not happen. The burden on Nadia and Rachel is to go about their bu
siness ethically (which they are not doing), but that will not happen. The burde
n on the entire community is to stop feeding the beast that is JoPa. This also w
ill not happen.
3
CurtisMSP No_6 - 2 days ago
I agree it won't resolve as long as most people believe Tony. If you read Nadia
or RHEs blog, most people think tony is ok and his critics are crazy. As long as
the celeb preacher network can keep up that image, it will go on. It will only
stop when enough people speak up and are heard.
You get it.
No_6 Guest - 2 days ago
I'm possibly the only true pessimist standing in your corner. Which probably doe
sn't resemble or feel like a "standing in your corner".
It's a holy mess. I'd run away from home if I could. BUT this is exactly what 7
years post divorce with a sick and twisted NPD looks like. I have stood on Doug'
s front doorstep and begged him to make him STOP. Doug Pagitt could....one of th
e few uniquely positioned to put an end to the hell. But he enables instead. The
y all do. Meanwhile, endorsing each others books and events. It's gross.
2
MichaelOP04 No_6 - 2 days ago
I think it matters because it impacts real people but I am starting to wonder if
it can be resolved online.
Guest MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
You seem to be trying to discredit the victim pretty enthusiastically for the pa
st 5 hours. And yet, I offered to meet and talk by phone and you evade.
1
MichaelOP04 Guest - 2 days ago
I've responded to this a number of times, Julie, but you are free to add anythin
g new to this conversation and I will listen diligently. Your entire tactic seem
s to be to demand I say exactly what you want me to as if I'm reading from a scr
ipt you're writing and that's just not how I like to interact with people. I res
pect where you're coming from, I've read all the allegations you made on RLS, DH
, TWW etc, and I understand we don't come to it from the same place, but I'm try
ing to patiently and kindly extend some graciousness to you to understand you of
course are going to have strong feelings that don't align with mine.
2
We come at from exactly the same place. Abuses occurred and occur still. I have
documents. So, you can NOT defend one slice of the pie and pretend there isn't 3
/4 left unexamined. No, you don't get to do that. Not to this victim and not to
anyone the church has mowed over for financial preservation. No! You and your pe
ople did NOT do due diligence. Not even close. That we are in agreement on. Othe
rwise, I would have been contacted and documents exchanged. We can go round and
round but that fact remains abuse happened and it is not okay.
1
No_6 MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
Everything impacts real people. But methods matter, not just in terms of online
interactions.
Guest - 2 days ago
But Michael, you just spent 4 hours defending a "guy I don't even know."
I don't know Tony or you and I have never spoken to either of you about the subj
ect, a fact that I disclosed from the very beginning. That's why I am not defend
ing either he or you nor am I accusing you, but am sharing from the careful inve
stigation I and others on my team took the time to do in order to try to weigh a
ll these things carefully and make the best decision for our organization withou
t compromising our consciences. I have listened to your opinion today and intera
cted with you respectfully and I understand why you would have such strong feeli
ngs about this, however, in my conscience I cannot bring myself to accuse someon
e when my very detailed research has not surfaced sufficient evidence to do so.
That is how I balance the sensitivity to victims and yet hold seriously my respo
nsibility to uphold ethical standards in the way I respond to allegations.
4
I have not felt sensitvity from you. As a victim I am letting you know that. You
delighted in writing about the arrest and yet you have no clue about the contex
t or facts regarding that event. It was classic gas lighting. It was my parentin
g day and he refused to bring them home. Keeping them days extra. I knew it was
a set up and it was. 3 squad cars waiting and his police chaplain friends at the
ready. He has a pre-written document asking a judge to flip custody because the
ir mother is in jail. That is what the professionals called "diabolical" because
it was nothing short of diabolical while 3 kids watched in horror. It was denie
d because judges understand narcissist unlike a church committee.
I read your much more detailed allegations of the arrest on the DH site. That ca
se obviously played out or is playing out (I'm not sure which) after the event i
n question, so we did not allow it to discolor our view of you in any way. We we
ren't trying to make a character judgment or to act like police or court officia
ls. We were just trying to make a decision 7 years later based on the significan
t documents available to us. I am pretty sure nothing I say will satisfy you, bu
t again, I do wish you well and am glad you have people to come around you and a
id you in your journey.
2
You should make a character judgement of a man who stages an arrest with 3 kids
watching to try and flip custody and using a trumped up harassment order that I
did not go and get thrown out because I did not have a lawyer. sits on it for 6
months WAITING then on a Friday calls his chaplain buddy Joy and (so I would be
in jail all weekend) pounces. You should make a character judgement of that, but
haven't. This was June 2013. This is happening in real time. Not 7 years ago. T
he abuse does not end. NOTHING seems to satisfy you into realizing you just back
ed an abuser.
I have already politely addressed why the investigation we conducted doesn't lea
d me to the conclusions you wish. I do wish you luck! I will be praying for you
and feel convicted for not praying more for those involved until now. Thanks for
the discussion and perspective.
1
And I will push back again that if you find yourself again as church leaders (wh
ite male middle age?) again in a room discerning another white male middle age..
..pick up the phone (as the smart, informed institutions did) and call the victi
m. testimony from those inside his cult does not count as character witnesses. r
eading the stacks of docs he wanted you to read and conveniently omitted the one
s that fill in the 3/4 of the story does NOT count as diligence. I do not need n
or want prayers from an enabler. That may sound harsh but not contacting the vic
tim makes you an enabler. What I want is advocacy for those who have been margin
alized and silenced by empires such as this for centuries. The people in power m
owing over the ones without a platform. It's wrong and the church should be a sa
fe haven but it's the opposite. Less prayer more honest and courageous advocacy
for victims.
CanIbeFrank MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
Michael--I for one will say that i appreciate what you've brought to this conver
sation and the respect with which you've done so. I'm see value in you and your
colleagues reaching a decision the way you did.
2
Guest CanIbeFrank - 2 days ago

you agree that abuse should be determined by NOT contacting the victim but by re
ading court documents? reputable institutions disagree with you.
Like I said, "Do better." For the next victim that you feel you did due diligenc
e for. Rachel said the same thing and ironically was given the same court stack.
"detailed research" would ALWAYS include contacting the victim.
1
I promise you I will try to do my best and continue to do better. Again, I did n
ot contact the accused either as it is clear that those inside the marriage woul
d have a stake in swaying us and we do not see ourselves as judges of people's m
arriage. In our role we felt the best thing to do was roll up our sleeves and do
our homework and we did the very best we could with that.
1
NOT ABOUT MARRIAGE.
Agreed.
Then why have you failed to mention and affair, cover up, mental illness, and do
mestic abuse? you just spent hours talking about child support while not underst
anding what was left out of the official docs.
1
I've mentioned literally every one of these things in the comments below. I know
I can't satisfy you though because you want me to align with your own feelings
and convictions around your experience and for my role in it, the records just d
on't allow me to do that despite the respectful tone of our intereactions and my
hope that life will bring you good in the future.
2
MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
I have presented some findings which in my mind raise questions around these all
egations, but I want to encourage people just coming to the conversation not to
be satisfied with summaries like the flippant one offered below. If you want to
understand the breadth of this thing, the questions being raised, and Julie's ma
ny responses, you can't just take the cliff notes from BigBrowner. It doesn't do
anyone justice and it represents the worst of the reasons people come to a plac
e like this to glory in someone else's pain.
4
BigBrowner - 2 days ago
Even I didn't think things were going to go this far. This thing has come unglue
d. Julie turns out to be the daughter or wealthy oil family.
Julie's sister is married to a senator worth tens of millions.
Julie has or at least had (based on her own admission) a nanny and she bought/le
ased SUVs for herself and her nanny by her own admission.
Julie DID go on a Mexican resort vacation while people were raising money for he
r here.
Julie lives in a 350k house in a swanky neighborhood that is owned by her rich p
arents.
Tony Jones wasn't actually ever charged by the courts for being in arrears.
Tony didn't litigate Julie into poverty. Actually she filed as many motions as h
e did and also had a high priced lawyer from the beginning. I can't even keep tr
ack of it all but damnnnnnn. Things in Edina seem to stay in Edina...until they
finally find there way to the internet. Go ahead and keep saying no one should a
sk questions. The more you call for silence, the more that seems to come out.
Guest BigBrowner - 2 days ago
Big Browner? Was just a drive by? I answered and corrected each and every false
and distorted accusation. I'll say it again. What else do you got?
BigBrowner with 1 follower. I just refuted each and every allegation. What else
do you got?
My ex despite the divorce decree tried to sabotage my grad school by registering
the kids who live with me full time for traveling soccer, hockey, baseball and
I HAD to hire someone to drive them while I worked and went to school. He paid n
ot a penny to help.
1
His lawyer is $450 an hour. Mine was $120.
We were homeless when my ex despite a court order to pay the mortgage drove it i
nto foreclosure while buying a home for he and his mistress
I live in a home owned by my mother. I do not own a home. When I get through gra
d school I will pay rent to her.
1
The generous fund set up by good people helped keep my lawyer alive for a little
while but I owe over $20,000 and they dropped me.
1
Paradise Village in Mexico is a 3 star resort. It was great to get away with my
two kids. The oldest was take unlawfully 3 1/2 months ago. I cannot afford to fi
ght to get him back.
3
You not only needed that rest but you deserved that rest, Julie. I am so glad th
at two of your kids joined you. It should have been three.
5
Guest Dee Parsons - 2 days ago
My son won't even speak to me. He has been 100% alienated. It is heart breaking.
The last thing he said was verbatim what his dads lawyer said, "I want all blog
gers contacted and every disparaging word deleted." The empire is in shock. They
successfully bullied, threatened and intimidated bloggers and controlled the na
rrative for years. Using your own son...only a diagnosed narcissist would stoop
that low.
4
Adrenalin Tim Guest - 2 days ago
I'm so sorry, Julie. You don't deserve that.
2
Guest Adrenalin Tim - 2 days ago
But according to the narcissist that is exactly what I deserve. The story finall
y got out and for that I must pay. He knows the most important thing in the worl
d to me is my children so he took an impressionable teenage boy and turned him a
gainst his mother. He is a victim of on line abuse. Only a diagnosed NPD could p
ull something so wretched.
2
Adrenalin Tim Guest - 2 days ago
It is wretched, and I won't give my consent with my silence. You're not alone, J
ulie. ((hug, if you want it))
I do not have a lawyer. I cannot afford one.
Big Browner? Are you in the area? I have offered to many to meet and I will glad
ly show you my tax return.
1
swanky? I have section 8 housing rentals in my backyard. clearly you arent famil
iar with my street. my ex told my son your mom lives in the ghetto.
2
In my opinion, this guy is here for his own entertainment. He isn't trying to un
derstand or add anything helpful. I think people can read your lengthier exchang
es with myself and others to get the full story beyond his cliff notes. ;)
He was brought in Contempt of Court in a Motion my first one filed. He owed over
$50,0000
1
MichaelOP04 BigBrowner - 2 days ago
Even though this is technically correct, I don't think the tone or flippantness
is helpful.
Alan Molineaux MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
How can you say it is technically correct when Julie has answered every point
1
MichaelOP04 Alan Molineaux - 2 days ago
Hey Alan, I think everyone reading who has the time is going to have to read thr
ough the many exchanges Julie has had with people on here and make their own jud
gment. I've covered where I landed pretty extensively. I'm not expecting you to
share my opinion, but I also can't in good conscience lay it down because not ev
eryone agrees with it.
2
smell a rat. first class rat.
3
Ha. Well at least I get to be a first class rat. If I'm ever stupid enough to ge
t my beautiful wife to divorce me, I'm sure she won't rank me that high on the f
ood chain. :)
again with the wife. just. stop.
1
My generous friend gave me a week at her timeshare. We flew sun country and were
lucky to find $250 flights
3
One of TWW's readers who contributed a large sum of money for Julie wanted her t
o use it for something like a vacation or a spa day. I am so glad you did get aw
ay, Julie. So will most of our readers.
7
Guest Dee Parsons - 2 days ago
It was so good for the soul. walking the beach with my daughter. enjoying my you
ngest son. they have endured their entire lives the animosity between their pare
nts. This is the first Easter since 2008 that I have not sent him a heart felt o
live branch letter pleading him top STOP for the sake of our children. STOP liti
gating. STOP. I think I have officially given up and it is haters frothing at th
e mouth like Big Borwner that let me know the empire has no shortage of willing
puppets. Thank you, again. Dee, you and your readers have been such a source of
encouragement for me. Thank you.
MichaelOP04 Dee Parsons - 2 days ago
Thanks for adding this, Dee. I don't think it's wrong for Julie to take a vacati
on. My wife would kill me if I didn't quickly agree every mom deserves one. :)
There's nothing wrong with that. He's clearly coming here for entertainment.
a mazda. leased with a penny sale.
I had to get a lease on a second car and pay $250 a month to get 3 kids to all o
f their activities with a driver/sitter while I work 2 jobs and go to school

I absolutely had to get childcare for I was working 2 jobs and going to school.
One of my jobs was at an agency and I was able to get a sitter for 30% off and p
aid her $175 a week for 3 kids. No I received not a dime of childcare help from
the father
Alan Molineaux BigBrowner - 2 days ago
You seem to have all the accuracy and honesty of a Fox News reporter
1
CurtisMSP BigBrowner - 2 days ago
Nadia is now competing with David Hayward to have the longest Tony Jones thread.
She has decided to publically endorse Tony, and then not delete any comments. T
his could go over 1000 posts. Anyone, including Nadia, could have predicted this
would happen.
4
Tim Wilson-Brown BigBrowner - 2 days ago
"BigBrowner", welcome to Disqus and NBW's blog. I notice your account has 1 comm
ent, your activity is private, and you're not using a typical given name name. N
or do you link to any external social media accounts. Do you feel like a sockpup
pet?
5
MichaelOP04 Tim Wilson-Brown - 2 days ago
Tim, do you mind me asking you, how you fit into this story? It was your tweet,
I think anyways, that alerted me to this thing to begin with.
Tim Wilson-Brown MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
Michael, I think I've now caught up with your background. This thread is advanci
ng at a rapid pace, and it's been a few days since I've read it (I think there w
ere only 20 posts back then.) Yes, it was probably my tweet that alerted you, as
I sent them to many sponsors of JoPa. This was shortly after the WX15 / Why Chr
istian announcement. However, it's more likely you were sponsoring the earlier C
hristianity 21 or Progressive Youth Ministry conferences. I only received one re
sponse at the time from Sonoran Theological Group. I'm glad others paid attentio
n to the concerns that had been raised by Julie and others about Emergent over a
number of years. My history: I was involved in the nakedpastor blog thread conv
ersation where Julie told her story. Despite much pressure from various Emergent
personalities, David Hayward has kept that thread up. Then, Rachel Held Evans (
who I had admired for years) announced the WX15 / Why Christian conference, whic
h, at the time, was curated by Rachel and Nadia, but hosted by JoPa. They said:
"Why, in the wake of centuries of corruption, hypocrisy, crusades, televangelist
s, and puppet ministries do we continue to follow Jesus?" http://www.whychristia
n.net/ab... Given the concerns I'd seen raised about Tony Jones, and the public
behaviour I'd seen from him and Doug Pagitt, I thought it was worth asking quest
ions about the allegations of corruption and hypocrisy in emergent circles. I th
ought Rachel and Nadia would welcome that sort of conversation, even if it was a
bout their own movement. I could never have predicted the resultant explosion of
concern and reaction on all sides. I'm not even sure who asked the first questi
ons - they'd been floating around for years, but the nakedpastor blog and WX15 a
nnouncement seemed to be lightning rods for community discontent.
2
Okay, that actually helps a lot and fills in some blanks I'd been wondering abou
t for a while now. So you have resonated with David Hayward's cartoons and had b
een a fan of RHE, but you expected her and other progressive christians to respo
nd differently which led you to ask questions. I did get from your Twitter feed
that you were a question asked by personality. I had also noted back then that y
ou lived in Australia, so I was curious as to whether you were ever part of the
emergent movement or perhaps knew Tony and Julie or were even related to one of
them but that doesn't seem to be the case now. Is that correct?
1
No connection to either Tony or Julie before the nakedpastor blog in September 2
014. No connection to any church movement for the past few years, progressive, e
mergent, or otherwise. I might have read Tony's blog a few times, and I read a f
ew progressive / emergent books years ago. Out of curiosity, what do you mean by
"you were a question asked by personality"?
Is there a word missing there?
1
Oh whoops. Sorry, yeah. I meant question ASKER by personality.;) Just meant it l
ooks like you follow and RT a lot of activists about a wide range of causes. I s
ort of guessed that you contacting me had something to do with your drive for br
inging voice to justice on the internet, but it does answer some of my curiositi
es to know you don't actually know anyone involved but were more motivated by th
e cause.
1
For a guy who "doesn't even know him" he is doing background checks on what orga
nizations Tim likes? Dude, you are too much.
2
When he tweeted us directly, we read his tweets that day. That's about the best
I can do I'm afraid! :)
Yes, an unwitting, unexpected, and reluctant activist.
3
I can't remember everything I read, but from the little I recall, it was a long
list of topics you were invested in advancing. Which is why I did consider that
you might be more of a big picture thinker and activist who got turned onto this
rather than someone on the ground in the thick of it. You live in Australia, ri
ght? Never been. What are the causes you're most passionate about?
CurtisMSP MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
A lot of the people most out spoken in their concerns are former fans, including
me.
MichaelOP04 CurtisMSP - 2 days ago
That makes sense.
what do you want to know Michael? I find that an interesting question. Why are y
ou the "wife lovin' simple guy" spending hours defending "a guy I don't even kno
w." How do you fit in?
1
I don't defend a guy I don't know. I just won't accuse a guy I don't know based
on insufficient evidence. I also won't be rude to a woman I don't know even if s
he disagrees with me and calls me simple. I am not perfect, but I've handled my
tiny role with as much faithfulness and ethics as I can and I am confident that
our work was well worth it.
Okay, so learn from this. Next time you are any part of discerning whether abuse
happened. Ask the victim. That is what was done and upon thorough investigation
the institutions decided they care more about their reputations. They also didn
't have ticket sales, book deals, or other inbred empire ties.
for someone who is not defending you just spit back what he published verbatim.
And, for 4 hours with quaint quips about the "wife who can cook" interspersed.
It's hard to know how to best interact with you here, Julie, but I'm doing my be
st. If I'm a little too homegrown or corny for you, that's okay, but I am genuin
e and would like to think I could be myself here and be welcomed.
Then support and learn. That is the best support you can give a victim. If you d
oubt and CLEARLY you do. Ask to see my evidence. That is what reputable institut
ions do. And did. And then he was dropped. End of argument. You think you did al
l you could. I don't. If you never contacted the victim. Her life long friends a
nd family. Then no. You didn't. You didn't even read important reports. So, no.
You didn't. You switch between savvy litigator and a character on Swamp People s
o my radar on poser enabler has been tripped. Contact me and lets talk by phone
if you are a real person on the up and up. Sadly, whenever I offer this not ONE
calls or contacts. Many actual human beings do....not posers and enablers.
1
Holy cow. Did you just respond by calling me a character on the swamp people? Ma
ybe it's comments like that which make reasonable people not want to engage you
on the phone.
I actually really enjoy the show. It's hilarious. You called yourself homegrown
and Korny. Not me. Then don't. It seems "due diligence" of abuse involves not co
ntacting the victim in your thorough investigation anyway. The event has come an
d gone. The checks have been cleared.
Dee Parsons MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
Michael, who is the *our* in your comment about "our work?"
MichaelOP04 Dee Parsons - 2 days ago
Hey Dee, I disclosed this from the beginning, but I know a lot of things have go
t mixed up as people comment in different places. I was a sponsor for a previous
Jopa event and was contacted, I think by Tim Wilson-Brown, and alerted to these
allegations. My org has religious roots and justice heritage so we took the all
egations incredibly seriously. We formulated hundreds of questions and talked to
several people with expertise beyond ourselves, and made the best decision we c
ould. You can read about the details in the other comments I've left, but that's
the gist of it. Thanks for seeking to understand.
1
BUT not the victim with the torn shoulder, police report and medical records....
give me a break!
Our role was to investigate our org's place among a group of conference attender
s seven years after the events of these allegations and we went above and beyond
to consult experts, consult not just court documents but court representatives
who could help us interpret them, and even spoke to people who had personal test
imony to offer. I admit that there's always going to be more someone could do, b
ut based on our role in this huge narrative, I believe we did a solid job of car
ing, showing sensitivity, and desiring to base our decisions on ethical standard
s. I understand you have strong feelings about how people should respond and I u
nderstand why you would have them and again, I respect that.
1
I would LOVE to see the list of testimony? Funny no one asked for my character r
efs or contacts. so who? Doug Pagitt the business partner? People should respond
like advocates and have professionals who know what they are doing. Victim advo
cacy 101 you hear from the victim.
We actually did get the list from you inadvertently! It was the people you repea
tedly named as having apologized to you. My boss talked to I think one or two of
them, but I think he tried to talk to all of them and not all were interested o
r he couldn't get contacts for them.
Those are NOT my people. Those are Emergent people. Who apologized for spreading
the rumors having never even met me.
Dee Parsons MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
Thank you. I am getting a bit confused.
Julie's brother in law ran for senator and lost. He comes from humble Nebraska b
eginnings and was the first one to go to college. He did well. How does that hel
p me and my poverty?
1
I will correct you line by line: 1. Julie is the great grand daughter of a man w
ho sold his grocery store to get in on spindle top oil well
I don't know who itsallasham is but the fact that they threw in that comment in
the middle of a tiring but meaningful exchange made me lighten up a little. Than
ks for the comic relief! :)
I'm not tired. I have been dealing with this flavored bs from the empires minion
s for 7 years...what else?
Good! I'm glad. :) I've appreciated the chance to interact with you here.
itsallasham - 2 days ago
I'm personally and professionally more offended that Pr. Bolz-Weber thinks this
book is better than what she learned in seminary. If that doesn't cause you to q
uestion her judgement...
4
Guest itsallasham - 2 days ago
she hung up on me when I called her for help having been physically abused. I th
ought surely this feminist will stand with me. Nope.
1
Tim Wilson-Brown Guest - 2 days ago
Feminist In Name Only?
Or is that, Fairweather Feminist?
1
Guest Tim Wilson-Brown - 2 days ago
depends on the book deals and cross-endorsements.
1
I want to be clear about something else as this winds down (I think it's winding
down?). I don't care if Julie has a nanny or ten nannies or a whole fleet of
SUVs. I don't care if her dad is the president of the United States. I really do
n't. I have kids and I know what it takes to raise them
with two full time parents and I would give nannies to every single mom
if it was up to me. So yep, I acknowledge bearing the majority
responsibility for raising children is rough, I am sympathetic
personally. My heart goes out to her. But when you combine all of this
with the cases that were still going forward at the time of our investiagation,
one of which involved criminal charges against Julie, it just wasn't as straight
forward as people make
it out to be sometimes. We were honestly thanking ourselves for not making a sna
p judgment based on what we found online because we found a lot of information n
ever mentioned
on these sites without even trying that hard, while other stuff we had to
really work and get help to understand correctly. But all in all, what we tried
to do I ams ure imperfectly is
an important part of balancing sensitivity to victims with
the need to provide ethical judgment and standards of verification.
4
"Michael", welcome to Disqus and NBW's blog. I notice your account is relatively
new, your activity is private, and you're not using a profile picture or your f
ull name. Nor do you link to any external social media accounts. When you say "w
e had to go to several courts", who are "we"? Much of the evidence has been laid
wide open by Tony and other sources on the internet. Why don't you read it to s
upplement those court documents? These are my personal recommendations, but ther
e are many more: https://rlstollar.wordpress.co... http://www.redletterchristian

s... http://tonyj.net/wp-content/up... (This is the 11-page second edition, the
unacknowledged 12-page original is here - the differences are instructive.) http
://subversiveinfluence.com... As an aside, the amount of unacknowledged editing
and post removal that goes on among emergent authors / founders (they don't like
to be called leaders), can be exhausting to try to keep up with.
4
Tim, I'm not sure you've read this entire conversation based on this comment, bu
t all of this is clearly explained in my comments and I'm familiar with the webs
ites you've suggested including the now deleted portions. It is a pet peeve of m
ine when people delete and remove things rather than standing behind them so we
can agree on that. I actually am glad you joined the conversation though because
as I mentioned earlier before you arrived, it was your tweets I believe that al
erted us about these allegations in the first place. I've always wondered what y
our place is in the story.
Thanks, Michael, as I said above, I am still catching up. This thing has explode
d in the last few days while I've not been watching.
I appreciate that. I saw your answer in the other part of the conversation. This
things a beast!
Nope. I'm still here. I thought you only looked into family court? You keep movi
ng the discussion which tells me you are not this impartial compassionate bystan
der after all. I detailed at great lengths the sadistic and diabolical staged ar
rest by his police chaplain chili fest buddy (she was let go) at length on other
places including David Hayward's blog. How interesting of you to bring that up
here....that really was his piece de resistance to have me soun as a criminal to
flip custody. Was there a conviction? No. Was his sadistic plan to flip custody
by running downtown with a pre-written doc citing their mother is a criminal wh
ile 3 kids watched was denied. You didn't mention that. Again, Michael. You have
proven yourself a dutiful pawn here today. What else?
2
No I understand how you could lose track, but I said below in parentheses that w
e had to go to several courts. I hear you using words like sadistic and diabolic
al and I don't doubt that in your experience as an ex-wife (then wife) with some
one as self-confident as Tony who would have probably been functioning at his mo
st angry and depleted would experience it all as sadistic and diaboloical. Unfor
tunately, the records available and the testimony of those that we could access
just don't create criminal abuse allegations, despite all the bad emotions I hav
e no doubt it brought down on you.
those are words in the 22 page psych eval that you did not read as well as other
important documents. your lack of neutraility has cracked wide open btw.
2
wordvixen Guest - 2 days ago
Right? "someone as self-confident as Tony". OMFG
Guest - 2 days ago
Kandace? Where are you? And, Drea? Aren't we meeting at the coffee shop to discu
ss? Michael? Contact me. Hear my story. I keep offering and yet...crickets.
2
I don't understand this comment. I responded. I am pretty sure the others did to
o. Just because you make demands on us, doesn't mean that we are obligated to do
every single thing you would prefer when you would prefer. I am trying to be re
spectful here and I genuinely do hope for your future well being so this is dist
urbing to see you continue to try to spin our communication.
Demand? I am offering to call you and answer all of your questions. You have man
y facts wrong and were provided the snapshot that was wanted for you to see and
spew back. I am offering open dialogue and face-to-face conversations. Spin? Wha
t? I think it is obvious you equate the diagnosis that was also given to the lik
es of David Koresh as the common cold. This diagnosis frames everything and for
it to be brushed aside proves the ignorance here. I find that disturbing.
I don't have any questions. I have read everything you said here and elsewhere a
nd I have welcomed you multiple times to say anything else that you have not sai
d or you think I may have missed. I have had respect for how you've engaged here
and I don't want to make this destructive. David Koresh is clearly not equivale
nt to a common cold and I don't know any human being who would ever say that. It
's difficult to even know how to respond here.
1
Then why treat NPD as the common cold? It is significant and serious and clearly
you don't get it.
As I mentioned earlier when you made the Koresh comment, I definitely do not tre
at NPD as the common cold. Not at all. I take all mental illness very seriously
and acknowledge the impact it must have had and still has and it, as I stated pr
eviously, makes me empathetic but empathy or hardship doesn't put non-existent f
iles into the court records. We are bound to do what we feel is honorable and et
hical based on our very best efforts.
1
KT, I'm not sure this is productive and clearly I'm offending Julie, so I'll jus
t say one more thing. Tony doesn't have a criminal record of any kind, which bef
ore anyone jumps on me, yes, we did take seriously the bias Julie had accused To
ny of etc. But after talking to several people who deal with court cases from a
variety of angles, they said that if Child Protective Services had any credible
reason to believe Tony was an abuser, if the kids' guidance counselors or whatev
er had a credible reason to believe Tony was an abuser, if the police or courts
had any credible reason to believe Tony was an abuser, that Tony would never hav
e been able to come in later on and be granted partial custody. One advocate we
spoke to said that many testimonies go into court proceedings and that if the al
legations that Tony was an abuser were considered credible then that would be of
f the table even to this day. Now I know that someone could still secretly abuse
their wives in the confines of their own home and nobody would know about it an
d I don't rule out that possibility. But when you start getting into the he-said
-she-said about what happened behind closed doors, you're making judgment calls
that frankly I think many people in these online conversations are less qualifie
d than all the many officials from many agencies who actually legally have the p
ower to make them.
3
Firstly, the absence of conclusive evidence for abuse is not the same as positiv
e evidence of the absence of abuse. And secondly, it is very common that "someon
e could still secretly abuse their wives in the confines of their own home and n
obody would know about it". It's typical of many forms of abuse that they occur
in secret without evidence.
I agree with your first statement. And obviously the second statement you quoted
was me, so that is my awareness as well. Tim, did you ever say where you fit in
to the story? I know a lot of names have been thrown out here but since you twee
ted so much about this and targeted many affiliates of Tony, it was specifically
you who got our attention and led us to do the research we did (so good job the
re!) What is your place in the story that led you to tweet at us and others like
that?
KT Pridgen MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
So you don't give any stock to the court documents that state that Tony was gasl
ighting Julie (telling her that her suspicions about an affair were because of a
personality disorder she didn't have) which is, by definition, a form of emotio
nal abuse? Is emotional abuse acceptable from a Christian leader as long as they
toe the line in other areas?
3
MichaelOP04 KT Pridgen - 2 days ago
Yes. We do give stock to that. Our org takes our work very seriously. We believe
in the cause we promote and we would NEVER risk our org aligning itself with an
abuser if our careful research had revealed that. It would be detrimental to ou
r morals and our consciences and again, to be frank, we don't get so much out of
jopa that we would risk that. Given what we found however it did not concern us
at that level. As for the affair, that also raised eyebrows. We looked carefull
y at the timelines there too. In our world, it's not considered appropriate for
example to begin a relationship with someone when one is just living apart or se
parated even if this is acceptable in the larger culture. It is considered honor
able to wait until the divorce is processed before moving on. That is how our mo
st conservative constituents would expect it to work anyways. I think even our p
rogressive constituents woudl see it that way. It seems like Tony likely began h
is relationship with his current wife after their marriage had ended but possibl
y before the divorce was finalized. Emotional abuse is not acceptable by any par
ty in any relationship period.
1
I guess I'm confused as to why you are accepting emotional abuse in Tony's case.
Do you think gaslighting is not abuse or do you have more information than the
court-ordered psychologist had who seemed to believe that Tony was indeed having
an affair and dismissing Julie's suspicions as the irrational fears of a mental
ly ill woman?
1
Because of his mental illness and violence I was awarded custody. You have not r
ead that report. You think you are an expert here but you are missing key elemen
ts. Most glaringly your refusal to pause and grasp an NPD diagnosis. He does NOT
have partial custody. He has the minimum visitation allowed. Michael, you do no
t know what the hell you are talking about. You also have not read the police re
ports nor the medical records. So, I have wasted enough time with you. Again, I'
m sure your event made money. Know you stood on the back of an abused person.
4
We actually paused significantly and didn't even pay our sponsorship fee on time
so we could take the NPD diagnosis seriously. I do not at all think I am expert
, but the expert I did talk to assured me it was a serious diagnosis. The courts
we spoke to were very clear that if there were credible allegations from any of
the agencies who interact with children in these scenarios that Tony would not
have been able to enter in later and get the custody arrangement at the time, mi
nimum or otherwise. It was not my event, either. I go to the event to share with
people what our good organization who accomplishes a lot of good in the world d
oes. I don't make any money from it.
2
You didn't pause long enough. The reputable institutions did. AND they interview
ed the victim and read her documents.
2
Again, no disrespect intended, but we aren't bound to do everything the way you
think it should be done. You get to do that. You control how you respond, what y
ou affirm, and what you don't and I would NEVER challenge your right to your opi
nions. But the flip side is that we have to be responsible on a soul level and o
n a legal level for our own actions and decisions and we took those incredibly s
eriously, more seriously than we take even some of our day to day work which we
are passionate about, and we just didn't see things the exact same way you did i
n the end.
2
But you never contacted me. You only read what you were told to read and what wa
s distributed. The institutions knowing that is but a snapshot and the only one
the NPD wants known dug deeper. Asked the victim. THAT was your failing.
I never contacted Tony. I never contacted Doug. I never contacted Nadia. I never
contacted Brian. I never contacted Rachel. We purposefully wanted to come to th
is using our own intellect and conscience and common sense as our guide and not
be emotionally swayed by any party who might have a stake in trying to mislead u
s.
1
Michael, it appears that you are ignoring the impersonal sway of power, reputati
on, and gossip. These weapons have been effectively wielded by the powerful in t
he Emergent sub-culture for several years now. I'd encourage you to objectively
study the power dynamics and the results of Tony Jones' influence over Emergent
Christianity. And study who has been left with the power, money, reputation, pla
tform, and followers - and who has been able to effectively silence their detrac
tors for years. This sort of behaviour deserves to be treated with the utmost su
spicion.
1
Tim Wilson-Brown, I don't have any ties at all to Emergent and I couldn't care i
f they fell off the planet. We've consulted real life experts in the region, and
sometimes in the city, and done in person research whenever possible and it jus
t doesn't match up. A lot of bad blood and one of the worst marriages I've ever
seen fall apart even from a distance but there's a lot of credbiility gaps, whet
her you and I like it or not. I appreciate your insights, but really, it takes a
bout a half an hour of research to underline why your simple encouragement doesn
't represent the entire story.
1
Why are you so scared to contact me? The institutions interviewed me at length.
AND said drop him. You never even read the psych evals. THAT is what does not ad
d up. For all of this diligence you failed to get my medical records, custody ev
al, police reports? WHY do you keep evading this gaping hole in your credibility
? You are on hour 5 of defedning a "guy I don't even know." I call BS.
1
I actually am tired (I know you said you're not), but I don't want anyone to fee
l like I just showed up, dropped a lot of information, and then took off without
being willing to listen and interact and answer questions. If it makes you feel
any better, I am getting some TV in while I type. Not Swamp People though. Just
reruns. ;)
Nope. Not one person contacted me. THAT is what does not add up.
I never claimed it represented the entire story. And plenty have done more than
half an hour of research, myself included. However, in the end, one must choose
who to believe - or to believe no-one. I acknowledge the credibility gaps. Life
is simply like that when it comes to complex situations. It gets even murkier wh
en those in power are busy suppressing conflicting viewpoints. Based on, ironica
lly, the (former / 2012 / Driscoll - TGC) teachings of Rachel Held Evans, I pref
er to believe victims. And based on my understanding of Julie's particular circu
mstances, I believe her story. (Notwithstanding that everyone makes mistakes and
forgets things, particularly under stress.) Have you seen Brad Sargeant's work?
He's put hundreds of hours into documenting publicly available sources: https:/
/diagnosingemergent.wor...
I can appreciate that. And I assumed you'd done some research to include it in t
he list of things you are committed to advocating for online. I've appreciated t
he nuance in your voice here that I didn't always pick up in 140 characters (pro
bably true of all of us). You're right. Things are murky and this is the murkies
t. My work requires detailed review and documentation, but this has definitely b
lown the ceiling off most "projects" I dive in to understand. I get the preferen
ce to believe victims, but I think there is good reason to balance our sensitivi
ty to victims with our responsibility to verify allegations in order to most eth
ically sort through things. I do get that all of us have access to different inf
ormation and come to this from different angles and I don't expect everyone to a
gree, although I hope that anyone who is putting this out in public has been tho
rough enough to see some of the gaps in the information exposed by our research.
I know I pick up insights all the time from other people involved, including Br
ad who you mentioned and if you ever do get the chance to read the whole thread
here, you'll see I mentioned him too.
This may well be part of the problem. It gives a sense that you believe that you
can be impartial when you are already connected to TG. Your internal emotional
posture already leans in that direction. In this regard speaking to the victim w
ould have seemed a better option.
3
I'm not sure what TG is.
Should have been TJ. Sorry
Oh sorry. I thought it might be a website like TWW. I don't know Tony and came t
o Jopa through a different channel. My boss talked to someone at a nearby colleg
e that serves a similar set of constituents as our org and asked him what events
they would recommend for an org like us and this was on the list. We read the e
vent site. We went. That's it. There was no mysterious connection to Tony Jones.
I don't know if it's silly to admit this, but even though everyone in these con
versations is constantly talking about him throwing celebrity around, I didn't e
ven know who he was. (Shhhh. Don't tell him. It might hurt his ego.)
2
No_6 MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
Liking your comment because even though I live in the same city as Tony and Juli
e, I didn't know who Tony was until three years ago. Likewise, I've spoken perso
nally with NBW on a business matter prior to knowing what her standing was withi
n the progressive and ELCA community. Let's just say that she was not pleased th
at I didn't know who she was. So I will say that I find claims of "celebrity" fo
r these people to be exaggerated--whether it's claims of "celebrity" or "followi
ng" from pro-Julie individuals or from JoPa itself.
1
clearly the narcissistic apple or authors do not fall far from the tree. birds o
f a feather...you get it.
1
that will definitely cause a narcissistic injury which is a clinical event resul
ting in rage and retaliation.
That's part of the problem michael. The machine gives powerful people a pass bec
ause everything is done on varying degrees of reputation. Whilst the victims (Ju
lie's in this case) voice is being silenced people like yourselves join the gang
so to speak. And so the cycle continues. You obviously feel you looked into it
in a correct way but sometimes it takes a little more boldness to see the story
behind the detail that you looked at. I am bit saying that you aren't bold but t
hat we are all in danger of being enablers if we think we have landed in a place
of the safety of our own certainties. The church has a history of covering up (
or ignoring - same effect) issues in order to protect the machine. This a far cr
y from the idea of leaving the ninety nine to help find the one. I sense that Ju
lie has been in need of some brave people who would leave their constituencies (
your word) in order to hear the voice of the one.
2
Actually, I think there's a lot of ways to define the problem and I think each o
f us has a responsibility to do our best to investigate and research to support
whatever our role is in this story. Mine in this case is a small one and I took
it very seriously. Of course not all of us are going to see the same things sinc
e we filter through the lenses of our different experiences, but I have the same
right you do to be thoughtful and reflective and make the best choice I can. I
can't just ignore my conscience or the information I've seen and agree with ever
yone's conclusions, but I do try to respect them which is going to have to be go
od enough for now, I guess. :)
1
Guest Alan Molineaux - 2 days ago
we all knew what you meant.
Guest Alan Molineaux - 2 days ago
Alan, I think it is bizarre not ONE person connected to the empire either as hos
t, promoter, colleague who has endorsed each others books has bothered to email
me or call me. In fact, they run and block me! Hang up on me. But throngs of sup
porters outside the empire. This is dirty business because there is dirt they wa
nt buried.
1
Alan Molineaux Guest - 2 days ago
It is Julie. I hope you know that there are plenty of people who are not so blin
d to the abuse of power that takes place. Michael might feel he is approaching i
t in a fair and appropriate way but it doesn't work like that. The abuse of powe
r is always harder to fight by the one being silenced. It is getting late this s
ide of the pond so I will have to check out for now. Will check in again tomorro
w. Take care Al
2
Julie, if there's more that you would like to say that you haven't already said,
it doesn't seem like Nadia is censoring us here. I would welcome you to share a
nything on your heart or mind and I give you my word I will listen.
I'm sure Nadia is in on this ....whatever this is. I don't trust you as far as I
can throw you. But I'll play along.
1
If you could throw me, you'd be one beast of a woman! :) I have no doubt you're
strong, but my wife's cooking hasn't been kind to my scale!
whatever Michael. you have vascilated between going for my jugular to mr. sweet
guy with a home cookin' wife....I have been at this long enough to have a keen b
s meter. I have the truth and your guy doesn't....end of story. you find an adul
terer and abuser a worthy event headliner. I don't. I have exhausted this round
but you did a fine job parroting the narrative. usually the pawns then email him
to get a pat on the head with their taile wagging for approval and historically
he uses what I have written for another run at a defamation suit. so you can fe
el proud about that too. I will report back when or if that happens. see, unlike
me...he really needs this story to go away. that is the nice thing about the tr
uth you can hold your head up high when telling it. peace to you, Julie
3
Guest - 2 days ago
He IS litigating me into poverty. How else do you describe a situation where a p

erson files a Motion all but a 3 month reprieve since 2008 and I have no choice
but to respond?!? You aren't even looking in the right court? He has filed doubl
e digits and then again in civil courts there has been 6 in civil court alone. N
ot just family court?! Michael, I had a lawyer in the early days. I can't afford
a lawyer now and am up against his $450 an hour lawyer alone and representing m
yself. You think you know what you are talking about....but you are incorrect. I
owe the last law firm $20,000 and I am afraid they will take my car. So, CLEARL
Y you are not just a distant on looker but in the pocket of the NPD....keep goin
g....I'll answer each and every spin.
4
Danica Guest - 2 days ago
Julie I believe you. There will be those that don't. And that's fine. The truth
will all come out in the end.
2
Guest Danica - 2 days ago
Thank you, Danica. Any victim of abuse and violence will tell you that whose thr
ee words are incredibly healing. At the end of this lifetime....my abuser knows
what went down. My kids watched it happen. You can lie and cheat but you can nev
er escacpe yourself. I sleep at night and have peace about who I am and happen t
o know....my abuser does not.
2
Again, you'll have to take this up with the courts, but God as my witness, that'
s not what the court records show. The statement that Tony Jones filed a motion
every three months is...I don't even know how to be polite and explain how diffe
rent that is from the actual facts.
1
Michael, you've not had access to the comprehensive court records then. I've see
n just one case, and the list of actions is quite extensive, and spans half a de
cade at least.
I said....if you were listening. There was either a Motion pending or filed cons
ecutively for the past 7 years with only one 3 month reprieve. I also (if you we
re listening) said there was Motions in civil court as well with his obsession w
ith trying to stage and arrest and harassment restraining orders. All apart of a
larger scheme to flip custody citing, "Their mother is a criminal." That was de
nied. So, you only looked in family court but you are calling me a liar albeit p
olitely. Sorry....not buying you are from a conservative evangelical org or chur
ch who recently investigated the abuses but NOT talking to the victim but only l
ooking at court docs which is what the abuser TOLD you to only look at but your
church or org is conservative but you host a progressive liberal who has proclai
med the resurrection is doubtful? Nope. I think you are actually one of the coun
tless pawns in the empires operation but continue.....what else?
1
Sorry for misunderstanding. Our investigation into the records just doesn't alig
n with your above reworded statement either. And also just to correct one thing,
I didn't say I was from a conservative org. Just that our org has some constitu
ents that are conservative while others are progressive. Many people even in con
servative doctrinal circles are more progressive politically now so I'm not sure
how you're measuring it, but that's what I meant.
1
I am doubting your agenda here because it is eerily the same narrative peddled b
y my abuser which he published publicly until he realized what an idiot he was t
o publish that because he didn't even have his own diagnosis correct and I had n
o diagnosis whatsoever and yet he lied on the internet that I did! So, you peddl
ing this narrative which they would like pushed down hard is interesting. Do you
really not understand the sheer magnitude of an NPD diagnosis?

2
I'm not sure what narrative I'm peddling in your mind, but all I can do is do my
best to be honest about what I've found and not pass judgment on things I don't
know about. If it's any consolation, I highly doubt I would ever like to be fri
ends with Tony Jones. I don't know about you. But I do wish you well and I hope
you are eventually able to move on from where you are. Sincerely, no one deserve
s to be stuck in your narrative forever either. You're obviously a strong person
and I hope you can use that strength and the support of those here and other pl
aces to grow a new Tony Jones free life that blesses you richly.
2
Can't be free from Tony if he is the dad of the kids.
That's true. I concede that. As free as one can be then.
Danica MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
Did you see the police report detailing Tony's violence against Julie in front o
f the kids?
2
Guest Danica - 2 days ago
He read what he was told to read...just the court docs. That is what they want p
eople reading....just a "messy divorce" folks. Nothing to see here.
1
Repeating this again doesn't make the statement valid. We never spoke to Tony or
anyone else and were not directed by any of them. We also did far more than jus
t look at court docs. We talked to actual people. We talked to more than one age
ncy. It was exhaustive and exhausting. I think this issue is far more than just
a messy divorce. This thing is so thick with problems, it surpasses any divorce
I know of or have even ever heard of.
1
Someone (tony) being a party to the divorce of the century should raise some red
flags.
2
With all due respect, they were both party to the divorce.
Adrenalin Tim MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
Indeed, but the point was that only one of the parties was paid by your organiza
tion to do a thing.
1
There is divorce and then there is divorcing a diagnosed narcissist which has it
s on section in book stores. Michael, I just don't think you get it.
I definitely do not get it in the exact way you are insisting that I get it, tha
t is true. But again, I wish you the best. I hope life brings you so much joy th
at this old stage of life gets beaten down by it. I know you'll never be free of
it, but I hope you get to a place where life blesses you beyond your hopes.
1
Right, but Julie is not claiming to be a church leader.
1
I don't know how active Julie is in her church or whether she even goes to a chu
rch. The research we did was not sufficient to suggest that seven years later th
ere should be consequences like removing our alignment with his organization. I
am not his religious superior.
1

No one is Tony Jones' religious superior. That is part of the problem. Emergent
has no leaders. But Pagitt and Jones are claiming to be its founders.
3
It's called being a stand up person. I would never willingly align with an abuse
r. For the love of God is this really that complicated?
1
If there was certain abuse (which we've discussed this), I would stand with a pe
rson and believe in their growth but in a more constructive and boundaried way w
hich would not involve alignment for a long period of time and perhaps forever.
1
I just told you that there was abuse. Please take victim advocacy 101.
1
You have and I am listening. But as we've discussed, unfortunately, it seems bas
ed on our conversation that we see things differently. I don't want to pressure
you to see it my way, but you also can't reverse the days of painstaking researc
h I did without sufficient reason. I am sorry for how that feels to you, but I h
ave to honor my own conscience in this. I never intended to get this deep into t
he conversation, but it's been good to interact with you.
1
painstaking? you never contacted the victim, psych evals, custody evals, police
reports. you read what the empire pointed to. again, I think I will go with the
reputable institutions that actually DID do due diligence and summarized I was a
nd am a victim of a diagnosed NPD and therefore they did the right thing.
1
We actually looked into a lot of these things, but as we have stated several tim
es now, we did not contact any of the parties who would have a stake in persuadi
ng us that they were right and the other party was wrong. This included Tony etc
. We were not being called upon to rule on criminal charges (that would be the c
ourts), we were just being called upon to make an honorable decision and we did
our very best even if we landed in a place you don't agree with.
1
Tony has no religious superiors. That is part of the whole emergent thing. Tony
has a kind of customer driven church, it is up to each person to decide if they
buy it. Hiding essential information makes it impossible to make an informed con
sumer decision.
Sorry, the conversation keeps moving as different people comment and I want to b
e faithful to really invest in the conversation and not just opinion bomb it and
run for the hillls (despite feeling like doing that at times!). I guess then To
ny is accountable to people like all of us collectively. Do some orgs not want t
o work with him? Maybe? Do some think God could still do something redemptive an
d hopeful inside Tony inspite of his flaws, I think so. Are there companies and
orgs and reputable individuals who choose to work with him. Yes. Are there those
who will hold him accountable by cutting ties and not buying his books, yeah. I
t's a free commerce sort of church world these days. We vote with our affiliatio
ns and our dollars and your no vote counts just as much as my yes one. I respect
that we won't all see it the same way and I don't assume that makes you a bad o
r unintelligent person.
wordvixen MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago
"Do some think God could still do something redemptive and hopeful inside Tony i
nspite of his flaws" Are you actually saying that it's ok to keep an abuser (or
even someone accused of abuse, which biblically disqualifies him according to Ti
tus 1) in a leadership position- actually placing him there in your case- just b
ecause he *might* have a change of heart? Dude. Your org is so off base if that'
s the case.
1
You are right, Tony haa set up a religious structure where he is accountable to
only his end buyer. Which means, when he intentionally hides important informati
on from us, he is acting in bad faith. Tony, the emergent movement, and all of t
he celebrities Tony coordinates, are all part of the same inherently fraudulent
system.
Guest CurtisMSP - 2 days ago
Curtis gets it.
Michael?
So, KT, thanks again for waiting. One major discrepancy we found is the ongoing
claim repeated many times on the web that Tony was litigating Julie into poverty
. I forget the term for it, but something like using legal action as a weapon or
form of abuse. We told this to the court clerk verbatim (we actually had to tal
k to more than one court for this one) and we were also told this statement was
not accurate. She explained that there are administrative motions in which the c
ourt makes a judgment about an administrative matter. Or where the parties come
to an agreement with their counsel and the court formalizes it. These aren't ini
tiated by either party. But in terms of the various court cases, it was NOT true
that Tony Jones initiated a bunch of motions against Julie. In fact, the case r
ecord at the time showed that Julie McMahon had initiated 5 motions and Tony Jon
es had initiated 5 motions. Exactly the same. Here's a website that you can go t
o that we went to with the clerk for this next thing. I have it handwritten so t
ell me if it doesn't work for any reason. http://pa.courts.state.mn.us/d.... She
said that people don't always understand how to look up cases because they have
to search for the right name using the right term (such as respondent). Again w
e had no idea what to think of this. I didn't know either of them from a hole in
the wall but we checked and rechecked. Tony Jones was not the dominant litigato
r nor was Julie under-represented by legal counsel as she claimed. Her first law
office which I have down as Lindquist was a very pricey downtown attorney's off
ice. There were so many holes, I can't even remember all of them related to this
.
3
Lawfare is the term.
Let's not lose track of the central issue: Tony's systematic, coordinated use of
the church to keep Julie, and her advocates, silent, for years. That will never
show up in your court records. But this is a church blog, and that is the centr
al issue of concern for me.
5
Curtis.....this is their spin.....to get you dissecting the "messy divorce" don'
t look over there at the affair, torn shoulder, or "lets' get Julie committed" a
nd never look in the corner where there is an actual 22 page diagnosis of a "sad
istic" narcissist.
1
No one is claiming Tony is perfect. Well at least not on our end. We're just say
ing the claims were not supported by multiple avenues of research, so we are for
ced to make our best judgment on how to proceed with an admittedly flawed leader
. You obviously would disagree with our best judgment and I understand why and I
can respect that. My wife is sitting here over my shoulder and she said to tell
you she can respect that too.
1

what is claimed and with facts is: an affair, abuse, a cover up, a crazy campaig
n, a diagnosis, and endless litigation. It is abuse and you are an enabler to lo
ok the other way.
But the claim that tony systematically uses the church to silence and discredit
Julie and others is supported by the evidence. That is the problem.
But you hosted a person who lied, had an affair, tried to have his sane wife com
mitted meanwhile he was proven mentally ill and significantly so and tore his wi
fe's shoulder in front of three little kids? Why are looking at support document
s when the victim is over here getting a cortisone shot so she can lift her arm
up more than half way? Do you not see how you and your church or org have been b
rilliantly played by the NPD?
2
Yep. For sure. I know. This thing is a beast, right? At one point, we had a list
of over 100 questions written on a white board about this. We took it very seri
ously. So on this front, I was not involved actually. My boss is the one who had
a conversation I think with two of the people (I was not on the phone for this)
who spoke on the DH blog too. Whoever he spoke to was adamant they had observed
things (some passed on specific actions they'd seen) that led them to tasteless
ly call Julie crazy, but they swore no one orchestrated characterizing her this
way, but that she had done specific things which were considered unusual. We bot
h know that divorce and pain and mistreatment and all of that could lead someone
to act "unusual" so I'm not making a judgment there, but it was clear they had
been vocalaizing their own judgments. They all said the marriage seemed fine for
years but that suddenly it became obvious there was a lot of tension and dislik
e and then it went from bad to worse seemingly overnight. They said it was one o
f the worst breakdowns they'd seen. And they had other explanations for how and
why they believe she exited community, but they were not flattering and since th
at is just their opinions, I won't repeat them here.
2
Did you consult a mental health professional? Did you read the 22 page psych eva
l? Do you understand the magnitude of a full blown NPD diagnosis? Clearly not. I
hope your event went well and your church or org made lots of money in registra
tion fees.
1
Yes, we did consult a mental health professional and yes, we did ask specific qu
estions about NPD. That was the part that weighed most heavily on us in terms of
compassion for you.
1
What hobunk licensed psychologist? (doubtful) failed to mention the hallmark of
the disease being pathological lying, gas lighting, revenge, narcissistic target
, narcissistic supply, and controlling the narrative. Michael, maybe your team m
eant well but they royally screwed up and got this one wrong.
1
They did NOT fail to say this actually. This is in fact what led us to feel comp
assionate toward you as divorce was said to be a time of crisis that would bring
out the worst in someone with this disorder.
1
I don't know how to tag Kandace or KT Pridgen whose question I am answering. Oka
y, one big thing was the child support. So we had to get a court clerk to take s
ome time to walk us through the paperwork we were trying to interpret. Her exact
words as I asked her about the allegation which I wrote down from the internet
that she repeated were: "I believe you were told that, but that's not what the r
ecords show." I also took notes that she said "There is no way to read these rec
ords and conclude there was any delinquency on the part of Mr.Jones" She said th
e State of Minnesota is one of the toughest states on child support and that chi
ld support laws favor the mother but that Tony Jones had never been found in arr
ears. She said the mother (Julie) or her lawyer might have disputed any portion
of the child support which happens in almost all cases, but that if he was in ar
rears, there would be more than one record supporting this conclusion.
3
Did you find he never gave a dime for 18 months? Did you find he never gave a wi
ling dime ever? The county has to try and find it from a self employed diagnosed
narcissist? Actually, again Michael you are wrong. The temporary order is not p
art of the official docs so NO it would not show. You speak with authority but y
ou are consistently incorrect.
Did you find the case where Tony Jones flipped child support on a technicality?
It was at the appeals court, so the local court reference you gave above wouldn'
t have caught it.
I never received the support owed under the 18 months of temporary order. Then h
e never willingly gave one penny. The county had to try and hunt it down. He wou
ld be paid on site at speaking gigs his $5000 rate and being a 1099 employee for
out-of-state he told my case worker, "you can't touch that." I have a paper ema
il trail of that behavior between he and a major institution that hires him. The
y have since apologized to me not knowing they too were in the long line of pawn
s.
2
Again, on paper a skilled diagnosed narcissist will always look perfect on paper
. So, for the defenders to say....."look to the documents" you are being deceive
d.
2
I have heard you say this but we never talked to Tony. Not then not now. To be f
rank, no one here cares what he has to say. We only cared about knowing what the
records really show to make a choice about any ongoing involvement with them. T
hat's it.
1
Then contact me! Anyone with a brain knows the courts are a piece of a victims p
uzzle but any advocate worth their salt knows what a narcissist can do to spin a
nd control the narrative. The very reputable institutions actually consulted the
ir psych dept heads. Your REFUSE to pause on the fact we are dealing with a diag
nosed narcissist. You keep the same smoke and mirrors routine they kept of for 7
years dissecting the details of a messy divorce. That's not the story. But you
are peddling the company narrative to a tee!
1
It's crazy to me that Michael keeps taking about you, Julie, but won't talk to y
ou.
Or that he keeps hammering the EXACT narrative the empire wants hammered? Not on
e word about affairs, cover ups, or domestic violence...not. word. one.
I've actually responded to her multiple times, with all due respect. I am listen
ing to everything she writes and have read all her previous comments extensively
. Contrary to some people involved in this, I do care. But I am not willing to s
ay things that aren't true in order to comfort her. I am hopeful that friends li
ke you bring her the support she needs.
1
Care? You might start with, "I am sorry you continue to be abused and I am sorry
I am a classic enabler."
I'm sure you don't mean to be condescending, Michael, but that's how it comes ac
ross.
1
Not really. You are mostly concerned with getting your agenda out than an actual
dialogue. That's a classic victim blame stance and an attempt to discredit the
victim, "I hope she gets the support she needs."
No, that's not true. I think you were caught in a really hard situation and I do
n't know what I would have done in your shoes. The fact that you are still going
strong and being a mom and working your way up as you described if something my
wife and I take our hats off to. Truly. We hope you find peace beyond measure i
n the days ahead.
If you take your hats off then listen when a victim tells you she is being abuse
d for 7 solid years and stop enabling!
2
Rather than pay the arearages he hired a $450 an hour lawyer who skillfully wipe
d it all away retroactive to 2008 and now I actually pay him. Yep.
1
He was 50,000 in arrears. That is the bar for Contempt of Court
You are correct. Sort of. He did not pay one red cent for 18 months under the te
mporary court order. We were homeless. He drove the home into foreclosure while
buying himself and his mistress a new home across town. That would not be in the
court files.
1
Not to be disrespectful, but we actually looked into this as well. You can check
with the deeds office or just get nosey on Zillow, one of my coworkers found ou
t from a realtor friend. Tony doesn't own his own house. It belongs to his paren
ts whose names I will redact since I'm sure you know them. We knew it would make
Tony furious to ask him, but our board member wanted to be able to honestly loo
k people in the eye and say we turned over any stone we could think of. I saw a
similar claim was made about you having a house below and that you said this was
also incorrect and your parents own the house you're living in as well. I'm sor
ry misinformation gets out there.
2
Thanks! So, the child support thing is public record-- it's been linked to in va
rious places. Anything that you've seen that has not been released to the public
? (And again, I wouldn't ask you to reveal the contents of the document-- just w
hich document it was... a police report for a particular incident, a court docum
ent or psychological evaluation we haven't seen, etc.)
Yep. Okay, I have a couple other things. Thanks for your patience as I get this
typed. Sort of more of a thumbs texting guy than a keyboard person.
That shows you that Tony won, in court, in that particular case. Legally, that i
s the end of the story on that case. But that does not mean that Julie didn't fe
el wronged, or does not deserve to publicly tell her side of the story, when neg
ative rumors about her are being spread by others. You covered your legal due di
ligence. That does not mean Julie has been treated well by Tony or his colleague
s.
as any savvy advocate knows the courts are one snap shot of the story and the on
e with the $450 an hour lawyer is probably going to win. even so....he continues
to lose because it is that obvious to professionals what the full comprehension
of an NPD diagnosis means. I have explained all of this before and I am weary.
Chose to support whoever you think is telling the truth. Personally, I wouldn't
put my support with a person whose $4000 clinical comprehensive diagnosis includ
es "pathological lying."
3
No, it was not that simple. We asked probably ten or eleven questions just on th
is alone. The records covered the length of time from the day Tony moved out and
documented everything with a detailed timeline showing their legal separation d
ates and legal divorce dates and how each impacted things. There was never any c
ourt action against Tony regarding child support and the woman assured us they r
egularly ruled fathers (and mothers sometimes) in contempt at some point along t
he way.
1
I've seen the court action Tony initiated to flip child support so he wouldn't h
ave to pay or be faced with a court action by Julie. Julie may have even either
had discretion, or had no money to launch a recovery action. Or does the State d
o that?
He reached the bar for Contempt of Court by not paying up to $50,000 in arrears.
The details of a messy divorce have never been my story. Abuse by spiritual lea
ders, a massive cover up of a known affair, domestic violence denied, threats, e
ndless litigation and the "Godly" men and women who enable (this is the MOST imp
ortant part) a diagnosed narcissist. If you do not get what that actually means.
...this is wasted energy.
2
I believe you. Julie is here, so she can respond too. Child support isn't the on
ly issue. Maybe if Tony would join in, we could settle this all right here?
Child support is the smoke and mirrors they would like you to focus on. Affair,
cover up, torn shoulder with corroborating police report and medical records, se
x emails, and a police escort out of the home.
1
Kandace, just scrolled down this comment thread after my friend told me about it
. Not usually a commenter. I don't know how exactly this works with or against s
ome of the people you're asking questions about, but the allegations have troubl
ed me for a while. FULL DISCLOSURE: I work for an org that sponsored one of the
events Tony was involved with. (Commence hate.) It was actually a sponsorship pu
rchased before these allegations surfaced, but we chose not to cancel after look
ing into this throroughly. We found out about the allegations because someone we
'd never met, I think it was Tim Wilson-Brown, tweeted at us and our social medi
a guy let us know. I saw someone else who questioned how another company's lawye
rs could find the allegations to be unreliable and I thought I might be able to
provide some info on how orgs are looking at it. Granted, my situation is differ
ent in that we don't have lawyers on the payroll or anything, but one of our boa
rd members did get involved and some neutral third parties were consulted. We fo
und there to be some serious gaps in the allegations and when considering the mi
xed evidence and testimony, we felt none of us had the expertise that others her
e are claiming to have to overrule courts etc. It's not that we took a position
of disbelieving Julie, but we just took a long, faithful, serious look at things
and realized that if we backed out, we'd be backing out over Tony's online pers
onality and how many people don't like him and NOT based on what the records sho
wed. I know this isn't a popular thing to say, but I'm going to say it anyways b
ecause I've thought of mentioning it on other conversations too but honestly, I'
m too much of a coward when it comes to going on and revealing my FB identity to
everyone. Shallow I know but honest. We all have our hangups.
3
Many of the allegations against Tony are not necessarily allegations of illegal
behavior, and wouldn't cross the legal threshold used by a lawyer or judge to me
asure the merits of the allegations. Allegations such as -- Cheating on his wife
-- Claiming that his wife was mentally unstable, and using said illness as a rea
son to leave her
-- Leaving his kids in the care of someone he himself claimed was incompetent
-- Coordinating efforts through his professional colleagues to prevent Julie fro
m telling her story, and to prevent others from speaking publicly on Julie's beh
alf
-- Repeatedly reneging on his custodial and child support obligations, and worki
ng actively to have his child support reduced even as his career grew. I don't p
retend to speak for Julie, and since she is here, she is welcome to comment. The
se are just some allegations I am aware of. None of these things are, in themsel
ves, illegal, or pass any sort of legal threshold. Yet they are all relevant to
the personal character of someone who publicly portrays himself as a leader in t
he church. You may have determined that you had no legal obligation to cancel yo
ur arrangements with Tony, but that does not mean that these allegations against
Tony are baseless or unwarranted.
4
They WANT you looking at court papers. That is not where the deception and sadis
tic behavior lies. Michael.....clearly you just tipped your hat because Nadia, R
achel and everyone else with money invested except for the reputable institution
s have said, "Look at the court docs." THAT is not where the sickening story lie
s.
I get there might be some power play going on in this and I sympathize with you,
but as for us, we don't care what Nadia or Rachel say. Some of our constituents
are conservative evangelicals who frankly wouldn't be fans of us going to a jop
a event or aligning ourselves with any of the big progressive celebrities. We ne
ver talked to Tony, Nadia, Rachel, Doug, Brian or anyone else for that reason.
No one contacted me. I'm here....waiting to be contacted. Why would big institut
ions drop him? After their thorough investigations which included contacting the
victim. The truth will always surface.
Would you mind sharing which documents you had access to that the rest of us do
not? I'm not asking you to share the content of the documents, but I would be in
teresting in knowing which of the relevant documents you've seen that haven't be
en released to the general public.
Okay, yes, this was a few months back but I will go get my little folder of stuf
f related to this that I think is in with my sponsor stuff in the basement and b
e back in a few. (I really will. Not just saying that.)
"due diligence" is defined by the interconnected authors, speakers, promoters as
NOT contacting the victim. In fact, blocking her, hanging up on her and telling
her to never contact you again while publicly stating you are an advocate for v
ictims.
3
I hear that, but to be fair none of these people were me. If we would've found o
ut from you rather than a tweeter, we would've heard you out.
I appreciate it! Thanks for engaging respectfully in this. (Though as Julie poin
ts out, contacting her would have been a good move for getting the whole story.)
2
I hear that too. If it makes you feel any better, we also did not contact Tony e
ither. We didn't tell he or Doug or any of the other interconnected leaders we w
ere doing an investigation because we did not want their opinions to bias us in
any way. We also consulted a board member who is completely unplugged from the E
mergent scene and didn't even know what Jopa was.
1
Michael, I am here. I would like to be consulted on what it has been like for th
e past 7 years having to defend myself legally from a vengeful narcissist who is
pissed off he has a diagnosis and his affair went virile and then there is the
pesky domestic violence where he was police escorted from the house. I have only
had 3 months since 2008 where there was not a Motion brought by him and where t
here was not a Motion pending. I stopped counting at 18. THIS is what it has bee
n like. And the rabid response to keep this buried is the truly the canary in th
e coal mine. Only prestigious institutions contacted both of us and did a thorou
gh investigation and found me to be a victim of a mentally ill and diabolical na
rcissist. Julie
2
Hey Julie, I've read everything you've written on other sites--DH, RLS, TWW, inc
luding the comments, but I am happy to have you add anything else you haven't sa
id before along these lines. Again I didn't contact Tony either. To this day, he
has no idea we conducted this investigation. To be honest, we know either side
has incentive to explain things away so we avoided ever bringing it up to him.
KT Pridgen - 3 days ago
I find it troubling how many people apparently decided to create Disqus profiles
just to comment in this conversation. I count six. (And I do realize there are
some on both "sides"). Now, I definitely don't think they are all sockpuppets, b
ut I would be surprised if all of them are legitimate... EDIT: Just kidding. I s
crolled down farther. 10+ private accounts created JUST to comment on this topic
.
5
I know I just created one bc I never have commented on a Disqus site before.
1
Like I said, I don't think all of these 10+ accounts are sockpuppets because eve
ry Disqus profile needs a first story. But 10+ on a single story, many of which
are offering dubious inside information? I mean, you have to admit that's mighty
suspicious.
1
In fairness, I admit it is probably unusual. Wonder if it's because the blog and
social media conversations have always been hosted by Julie supporters and this
one is perceived as less hostlie bc it is NBW's turf. Probably an illusion, but
it's part of what got me. :)
1
No, its because most blog and social media conversations about Julie & Tony's si
tuation before last September were deleted by the host blog. Many still are toda
y. Last September, Julie started writing on David Hayward's blog, and he has agr
eed to not delete her comments. Also, for many of the past 7 years, Julie and To
ny have been engaged in child custody disputes, during which time Julie was advi
sed to not write anything. Julie could say more about that.
Sorry for repeat posting but gotta say it again. When people tell you not to loo
k at trolls, look at the trolls. Look at everyone who asks you not to investigat
e the trolls. Wait for it...let me guess...there friends with the trolls!
Predictable. In the trolls unbiased opinion, no one should investigate the troll
s because that would take the attention off...where they want it. Go figure.
Okay...whew...yes, when you all said I was naive when I suggested those who have
been platforming the allegations against Tony Jones should also be explored, I
was sort of offended. I have some professional competency so it felt dismissive.
But as things have evolved, I've had a good cry which I'll tell you about in a
minute and I can admit you were right. But first the emails you've sent: the peo
ple that emailers were most curious about their real life relationship with Juli
e were Tim WIlson Brown and David Hayward, followed closely by RL Stollar and Br
ad Sargent, and then Stephanie Drury, Amy Smith, and Julia Doughty. I saw at lea
st two commenters here mentioned some others which we'll add to the list. One pe
rson also mentioned Dee from Wartburg, but a couple people stated they saw her a
s being in a different category than some of the others so...we'll see about tha
t one. There are also a few others that came up less. If you've emailed me, I wi
ll eventually get to it. I've received a lot more emails than I expected (again,
you may call me naive). Most of the emails that came in were from people who sa
id they were scared of questioning some of the online personalities who they saw
as being mean and lacking the ethical standards of professional advocates (this
is what they said: don't shoot the messenger!). Some of the emails specifically
attacked me for even asking the question. I have decided not to reveal any conf
identialities, because I promised some people I wouldn't, but there's definitely
been a few who used a lot of forceful, power-language to convince me why I shou
ld NOT investigate those platforming the allegations. Some of these were incredi
bly rude and had all the marks of WASP manipulation. This was the part that gave
me a good cry. The other thing to know is I am not alone. Crazy as this is, one
of the people on the list actually tried to assert themselves as an impartial h
elper who could look for bias. Um no. There was one or two people with some rele
vant background who I think might lend some help. Also though I heard from a wri
ter who is interested in the ties between this story and the Rolling Stones stuf
f. I'm feeling kind of down on myself that I am not stronger in the face of this
opposition, but at least I know from the emails of others that I am not the onl
y one who is fearful in asking questions. It gives me a little courage to realiz
e that I am not the only one who is asking these questions and I am not crazy ei
ther. ;) Respect to all of you for participating in the discussion and thanks fo
r the emails. If I haven't gotten to yours yet, I will. I had to work today!
2
Kandace, you can read a summary of my non-connection with Julie in my comments t
o Michael above. As far as I'm concerned, there's not much more to investigate a
bout me (and it feels weird to be investigated for advocacy for abuse victims, t
o be honest). However, feel free to contact me here or privately if you have mor
e questions.
MichaelOP04 Kandace - 3 days ago
I hate this for you. Just from my brief interactions with this group a few month
s ago, it was not pretty.
1
I welcome Kandace. I will talk to anyone. Openly and honestly.
What is your rough estimate of the number of people you intend to investigate, a
nd how do you arrive at that estimate? Can we see your list of everyone you inte
nd to investigate?
I encourage you in your research. But speaking of ethical standards, you can't r
eally report findings like "scared of questioning some of the online personaliti
es who they saw as being mean" And "forceful, power-language to convince me why
I should NOT investigate" And "incredibly rude and had all the marks of WASP man
ipulation." Without providing verifiable sources or quotes. All sides of this to
pic are expected to provide verifiable, relevant sources. Anything else is hears
ay and meaningless. I encourage you in your research, and hope you will follow r
esponsible standards in your research and in reporting your findings. If someone
is publicly asserting themselves on a public topic, they are voluntarily assumi
ng a public position, and you have no ethical or legal obligation to honor their
request for anonymity. If they insist on remaining anonymous, you can't really,
ethically, quote their opinion as a finding. This applies whether the person is
supporting Julie or Tony.
2
Tim Wilson-Brown CurtisMSP - 2 days ago
I am not a lawyer, but my understanding of US libel, defamation, and slander law
is that you can either give your own opinions without restriction, or discuss f
acts based on disclosed evidence. You can run into trouble if you base your stat
ements on undisclosed, secret facts. This is not legal advice. You may want to g
et your own lawyer, or at least read actual lawyers on this topic: https://randa
zza.wordpress.com... https://randazza.wordpress.com... https://randazza.wordpres
s.com...
I think people can conduct their own investigations. Probably all of us have don
e somehting along those lines, right? But we shouldn't take anyone's word as fin
al (including mine). Listening doesn't hurt though. And it's definitely possible
to pick up some new information from someone else found, even if you don't come
to the same end game. For what it's worth, I do agree that for an investigation
to be complete, it has to be an open one that reveals who worked on it and why
and all that. That's why I almost didn't comment today. Even a neutral party to
one side might not be an acceptable, unbiased opinion for the other. Anonymous o
nes, I admit, are even harder to swallow. Sucks on so many levels.
Kandace.We have not spoken. In fact, Nadia, Rachel...no ONE with financial ties
has contacted me about anything. I'm an open book and will answer anything. What
's your question?
Julie
1
BigBrowner Kandace - 3 days ago
^^^^^^ DUDE. This is f-ed up. When people start intimidating you for asking ques
tions, it means your asking the right questions.
wordvixen BigBrowner - 2 days ago
As evidenced by TJ and his buddies threatening legal action every time anyone wi
th any following started asking questions about him.
AussieCarol - 3 days ago
I agree wholeheartedly with Danica from SCCL below. There's been far too much si
lence here and not enough
listening. People need to speak. Not just one person. Not just two
people or a group of people. Not just the accused, the accuser, Nadia,
Brian, SCCL, David Hayward, Tim Wilson Brown, but everyone who has
something to share. Silence has not resolved this so far. Don't turn
back when progress is being made. I am more convinced than ever
that people will continue to investigate Tony and Julie's stories until the cows
come home. I think Kandace GOD BLESS HER now that all this
has happened had should not be discouraged by the messiness of airing such thing
s out either. People need to look into all the
voices that have elevated themselves as experts, advocates, and ongoing
sources for this matter on both sides: I'd like to hear how much
personal real world interaction as Kandace said (not internet or phone communica
tion) the following people had with Tony and Julie before
they were married, how much any of them have with them now, how long they've kno
wn them, whether
they ever lived in the same town or state, and so on. Brian McLaren
Nadia BolzWeber
Doug Pagitt
Drea (below) if anyone knows her last name
JenSwisher
CurtisMSP
JRGE Amy Smith
Julia Doughty
Tim Wilson Brown
Dee from TWW David Hayward
Stephanie Drury
RL Stollar
Brad Sargent
Brother Maynard
Clint Schnekloth
1
Tim Wilson-Brown AussieCarol - 2 days ago
Ah, a fellow Aussie!
Carol, that should answer half your questions already.
The rest of the answers are above in response to Michael.
And careful to not make it look like a witch hunt of Julie's supporters, ok?
Because if you're going to spend time investigating, investigate the interlockin
g, undisclosed relationships between Emergent authors, too. Like book endorsemen
ts, speaking gigs, conference deals... that's where the money is. Not among the
list of people above. This whole thing has cost me time and reputation, and made
me nothing.
1
Kandace AussieCarol - 3 days ago
A lot of these names have been mentioned already except for some of the commente
rs on this site. If anyone who has commented wants to answer offline, please ema
il.
Danica AussieCarol - 3 days ago
Honestly, anything that takes the focus off of Tony Jones' abuse of Julie McMaho
n, and the Emergent leadership's coverup / continued silence of that abuse, is b
ackground noise for me. The people who are advocating for Julie are the ones who
also spoke out against Mark Driscoll, and Soverign Grace, and other abusive min
istries. The people who are siding with Tony have their finger in the Emergent p
ie. Julie has told her side of the story. Tony did at one point although he has
since taken it down (although I think there are screen shots somewhere). That sh
ould be enough. If seeing the actual documents and evidence, and hearing the fir
st hand account of the victim isn't enough to believe her, then looking into the
backgrounds of all of the people who rally behind her isn't going to do anythin
g besides distract from the issue at hand.
2
AussieCarol Danica - 3 days ago
I don't think every person deserves to have their lives turned upside down, but
it only makes sense that those who have elevated themselves to having expertise
and have made themselves into ongoing sources of information be explored too. Ot
herwise, it's too close to silencing for me.
1
Carol, your analogy is flawed. What expertise I have, I mainly got from Rachel H
eld Evans and how she advocated for victims of Driscoll and SGM. And I'm merely
trying to elevate the voices of unheard victims - in the middle of an epidemic o
f silencing from Emergent leaders. Don't flip people's desire for a little priva
cy into an accusation of silencing. That's as bad as flipping questioning and cr
iticism of public figures into bullying.
1
BigBrowner AussieCarol - 3 days ago
"too close to silencing for you"? Its not close to silencing. When people ask yo
u to be silent when you poke around about one topic, but want a full on interrog
ation about others that IS silencing. Cut and dry.
1
Kandace AussieCarol - 3 days ago
I should add that we will be verifying what people say. They can't just say "Oh
I live in Edina" and think we'll be like, oh okay, write them down as a taxpayer
. ;)
Go ahead. Doxx me if you must.
Tim Wilson-Brown Tim Wilson-Brown - 2 days ago
But I honestly have to say, it comes across as a little creepy.
It's your prerogative - go ahead if you want to. As for me, I'm going to stick w
ith the issue at hand. Tony Jones was abusive physically, emotionally and spirit
ually to his wife Julie McMahon. After the divorce he continued to be emotionall
y abusive and used his connections within the police force, and Emergent leaders
hip, to silence and gaslight her. As a Christian leader, this is wrong of him to
do. It needs to be called out. We are *required* to call our leadership out whe
n they abuse the sheep God gave them to shepherd. I will continue to support Jul
ie's efforts to be heard and will continue in my own small way to attempt to hol
d accountable both Tony Jones, and the leaders who rally behind him while turnin
g a blind eye to his abusive behavior (leaders such as Pastrix Nadia Boltz Webbe
r, who I am honestly surprised hasn't commented here yet, or I should say, comme
nted as herself here yet). For me, for myself, this is my own opinion, not tryin
g to silence you but speaking for myself - anything that takes the spotlight off
of the above is not helpful.
3
CurtisMSP AussieCarol - 3 days ago
Isn't there a YouTube video somewhere that draws lines between these people? Als
o the "diagnosing emergent" blog has a lot of this information.
Yes! Great source for the Tony side of things.
Your research will show that the "tony side" is the only group involved with any
sort of structure.
BigBrowner CurtisMSP - 3 days ago
Not so fast on that one. I've heard differently. Let the chips fall...
Clint is a pastor in the ELCA and easy to find on Facebook and twitter. I'm pret
ty sure he doesn't mind me saying it, because he is very public in his social me
dia presence.
1
Keep in mind that some people on this list may not be at liberties to disclose f
ull details about their relationship with Tony. Many product endorsement contrac
ts have nondisclosure requirements that prohibit the parties from stating the na
ture of their contract in public.
1
AussieCarol CurtisMSP - 3 days ago
Interesting. See I know nothing of that world! I haven't seen Kandace in a bit,
but I'd like to ask her to investigate those that don't respond. Or I wouldn't b
e surprised if this all draws a reporter in, would you?
I'll answer the moment Nadia does. It is her blog, after all. Other wise I'm not
hard to find, there aren't too many people with the name Curtis in these conver
sations. You can message me if you want more info.
1
Also the 'whether they've ever lived in the same town or state' honestly makes m
e antsy. It feels close to doxxing. Not what you're intending, probably, but it
feels like toeing a line to me, as Ragnarock explained below.

2
Oh you might be right. It might not be good to disclose locations, but people co
uld share if they had significant experience living nearby to counter some of th
e claims here (if they felt comfortable). Or if there were a reporter perhaps th
ey could research this in the broad sense without disclosing anything harmful. G
ood point. I missed that sensitivity.
Yes, you did, Carol, as I commented above.
Something you need to be really careful with when dealing with abuse victims in
particular, and women in general.
Pretty much every (real, not ghost account) person in Tony's camp is connected t
o him via the Emergent machine - book deals, speaking tours, conferences, etc. I
have personally never met Julie, but I've never met any of my SCCL friends --that doesn't mean they're not real friends. And I call Julie a friend.
1
Thanks. I think it's admirable you extend yourself as friends to those you have
never met. We all probably could use a few Danicas in our lives. ;) I don't know
either of them either and have never even spoken to either on the phone or on e
mail. I do read Dee's blog and I sometimes stop by SCCL when a couple of my Face
book friends share links to it. I read one book by Brian McLaren as part of a bo
ok study once and have visited some of these other people's sites since this bro
ke out.
I want to suggest to people that things here are getting out of control. On one
hand, someone might say that all is fair in love and war (and this is both, righ
t?) and Julie should be picked apart just as clinically as Tony was. But I think
I speak for the silent majority when I say we don't want to look at any more co
rpses as hurting and wounded people get picked apart by the buzzards. Can we jus
t stop? It's clear that there are some valid points here made on both sides and
that the scenario might not be exactly as some thought. But I'm suggesting that
anyone who has something that is NOT hearsay but EVIDENCE, they not post it here
, but they send it to the Edina police or to Julie or Tony's lawyers. This battl
e CANNOT be fought responsibly online by a strange cocktail of friends, business
partners, parodies, anonymous parties, and local Edina residents. There's no tr
uth to be found this way. If this persists, once again the kids are going to get
hurt. And I know, I know, it's not about the divorce or the family, but we all
know it is. They don't deserve to see their mom raked over the coals. Surely we'
ve all had enough. If we choose to go on and on with this, then please, someone
get a reporter involved and look into all the claims being made here. Look into
the people making the claims. Find out where everyone's credibility and expertis
e lies. Find out what gaps they failed to close or what "facts" didn't get check
ed out ON BOTH SIDES. I try hard to believe victims. But just in case you're one
of those people on here who wants to add more insult to injury, think about wha
t happens even if you are right. There was a national news story very recently w
here the reporter had to apologize for failing to verify an alleged victim's sto
ry and I guarantee when it was shown to be dubious it only hurt more people. It
hurt the people who were falsely accused, it hurt the credibility of everyone wh
o got caught up spreading an incomplete story, it hurt the reputations of organi
zations involved, BUT MOST OF ALL IT HURT OTHER VICTIMS WHO WERE DISCOURAGED BY
THE KIND OF HELL-ON-THE-INTERNET THAT UNFOLDED. Please show some mercy and reign
this thing in. That's all.
5
Tim Wilson-Brown BMikeThomas - 2 days ago
I've always found Julie transparent, sometimes to the point of over-sharing. And
the kids have already been hurt by an acrimonious divorce that continues to cau
se conflict - not to mention the actions of their narcissistic father calling th
eir mother crazy, and silencing all of her efforts to stand up for herself. Then
there was the physical abuse, and the emergent gang-up on Julie in support of T
ony. And now Julie has disclosed that Tony has co-opted their oldest son into pu
tting pressure on her to silence this discussion. Yes, it's shit. Yes, kids are
getting hurt. And it won't stop until Tony Jones is removed from positions of in
fluence. Then maybe he will take responsibility for his behaviour.
2
Stephanie Drury BMikeThomas - 2 days ago
Please show some mercy and drag everything into the light.
Kandace BMikeThomas - 3 days ago
I hear you, but I think because of the revelations from yesterday and today as w
ell as some of the emails, there is likely some disparity between some of the on
line stories and people's real life experiences.
Again, Kandace....contact me. I'm waiting with an arm load of documents.
1
AussieCarol BMikeThomas - 3 days ago
I understand why you would say this, but I disagree as I stated above. The grand
ma in me wants to protect the kdis too, but I tend to think the kids are going t
o have to hash all this out anyways because of everything that's already out the
re.
CurtisMSP BMikeThomas - 3 days ago
Don't worry, Tony and his friends have it under control. Tony can settle things
with Julie any time he wants to, and His friends can speak up and say or do anyt
hing they want, and associate with whomever they choose, any time. If Tony and h
is friends have a control problem, it may be too much control. Things are not ev
en close to being outside their control. I wouldn't worry about it.
2
Danica BMikeThomas - 3 days ago
I heard you say:
"Don't talk about it here. Go to the proper authorities"
"By talking about this you are hurting the children"
"Believe the victim except in this case"
"There are faults on both sides. Let someone else sort it out." These are all th
ings that have been said across forums (on TWW, the NP blog, Stollar's blog, RHE
's blog, and elsewhere) to silence those who have risen up to support Julie in t
elling her story. I'm honestly not surprised. I was literally a few minutes ago
wondering when a) Nadia would close down comments here, b) or delete the comment
s, or c) someone else would come in to shut down the conversation. Respectfully
I'll say that until there is justice for Julie, and until Tony stops bullying he
r, and until the Emergent leadership as a whole recognizes the abuse that *did*
happen, without trying to equivocate it, then I'll keep talking.
7
Now that I read your comment, I think RHE should be added to the list too.
Yes, Carol, Rachel may not have been involved at the beginning, but she is part
of the conversation now - and has been one of the more vocal in directing Julie
to go anywhere else but Rachel.
Guest - 3 days ago
Hello. My name is Julie. There is a campaign here in overdrive to discredit me a
nd my story. I stand firm in saying the abuse is happening today as it has for t
he past 7 years. "I will no longer be his litigation hammer to hurt Julie" said
one professional who quit realizing she was a pawn for the narcissist. Every wor
d of the abuse, affair, cover up and 7 years of unrelenting litigation is true.
I live below the poverty line despite wealthy relatives. An "au pair" is a fancy
word for the cheapest childcare you can get and when you work for the agency yo
u get 30% off. Do your homework Drea-Stanley. A mazda leased at $230 a month is
hardly a luxury vehicle. A public pool pass for the summer again at a deep disco
unt because my second job is for the city is again hardly a country club members
hip. I applaud your victim smearing and discrediting efforts but I will respond
to every wild distortion after I go work my unpaid internship while plowing thro
ugh graduate school to lift me and mine out of poverty because their vindictive
father paid his $450 an hour lawyer to reduce support down to nothing. Bring it.
I will answer each and every question. Because my sister married a succesful bu
sinessman who ran for senator and lost does not mean I have a penny of his wealt
h nor what political party I align with but again I got to applaud your rabid fr
othing efforts. Since you are local....let us meet and I will tell you every thi
ng that you think you already know.
13
Julie! Thank you for sharing your story with us.
I have been speaking since 2008. I have been silenced just as long. Nadia said,
"I won't engage in gossip." I called her thinking she would help. Nope!
drea_stanley Guest - 3 days ago
Wow. All i can hear is privilege privilege privilege. I didn't even know your br
other was a senator. That's news to me. But someone should tell you when you're
trying to sound poor, you don't keep dropping "oh I spend ONLY a couple hundred
here or only a couple hundred here" because for a lot of America, one of those c
ouple hundreds would make all the difference. I'm not backing down, baby girl. E
veryone who knows your family knows how the money tree flows. They know how you
roll. I hope it doesn't hurt too many people when all this hits the fan.
1
Guest drea_stanley - 2 days ago
Drea disappeared and declined my offer to meet and share my tax return.
Zomg Perry drea_stanley - 2 days ago
You sound like the kind of person who goes around policing what people on food s
tamps put in their shopping carts.
Guest Zomg Perry - 2 days ago
she just did. according to Drea my doing yoga daily for my sanity at $104 a mont
h is frivilous and luxurious. It's survival.
Stephen M. drea_stanley - 3 days ago
You are one gross sounding person. Wow.
3
AussieCarol drea_stanley - 3 days ago
Drea, I hear a lot of anger in you both at your feeling that Julie has misled ot
hers and also in your family's experiences of poverty. I want to be sensitive to
that and *believe* you as victim of a system and as a testifier to your own com
munity's story as well. I understand how someone living in Tony and Julie's comm
unity might be very taken aback by what is going on online and how they might ha
ve information that seems obvious to them, but is unknown to people like me tuni
ng in from far away. In this same way, as you enter the online world of people h
ere, some of what you say in dropping what sound like patronizing endearments to
some of us can be offensive. I do hear what you're saying about people at least
acknowledging that they may be easily misled by people shoving partial informat
ion at them from either side, but I do think you should also acknowledge that it
is difficult for those who want to go up against religious empires when it appe
ars the local community hasn't ruled. I do hope when you come back you will at l
east acknowledge this.
Danica drea_stanley - 3 days ago
"Baby girl" .. really?? How condescending can you be? Then again you guys have b
een calling Julie 'batshit crazy' for years now, so she's probably used to it. O
h, and pro tip - when you want to be taken seriously, don't create anonymous pro
files just so you can comment on one specific post to troll one specific person,
while talking to yourself using your other ghost profiles. It's painfully obvio
us.
5
CurtisMSP drea_stanley - 3 days ago
Julie and Tony are grown adults and are, independently, responsible for the welf
are of their children. Are you saying that when a father sues the mother, it is
the grandparents' responsibility to pay the bills?
drea_stanley CurtisMSP - 3 days ago
Naw, man. I'm saying she keeps her big money in her family's pockets and everybo
dy and I mean EVERYBODY knows it.
Everyone in Edina has asset shelters. I'm sure Tony's family does too. You don't
accumulate Edina style wealth without protecting your assets somehow. I'm not s
ure how that gives license to Tony to abuse Julie, and use his network to keep h
er quiet, and then ditch Julie and not pay child support for his kids.
1
What? Where is this big money? My father helped me because their deadbeat dad dr
ained all accounts canceled all cards and left a stay at home mom penniless for
18 months but he died in 2011. Drea you're incorrect in your assumptions but kee
p talking...go on....bring it....go on...I'll meet you at 6pm xerxes Dunn bros.
Gotta go.
6
I've got nothing to prove, honey. I just wanted people to know who they are deal
ing with. And now that I'm googling everything you've said, SH*T, you're in deep
. Maybe some of your internet friends should meet you tonight for the first time
and meet the single mom living in poverty...IN EDINA.
Tim Wilson-Brown drea_stanley - 2 days ago
And besides, abuse is abuse, even if perpetrated on a (more) privileged person.
And even if she has an allegedly inconsistent story.
But you really need to turn your skepticism on Tony Jones as well. Many people h
ave publicly accused him of using women, people of colour, and LGBTIQ people as
meat-shields to appear more relevant. That's disgusting.
4
Either Danica is right, or you've justifiably suffered under white privilege and
racism your entire life. I can understand why you'd find it hard to identify wi
th a white woman then.
AussieCarol drea_stanley - 3 days ago
I understand why it might be intimidating to meet someone who has a few fierce o
nline defenders that I wouldn't want to mess with. I still encourage you to cons
ider it, even if you don't know that much about her situation and were only tryi
ng to point out one thing you did know. Maybe if you knew more you would underst
and why she comes across online differently than you know of her.
Googling what? My wealthy great grandfather? I'm in deep? For what? I have asked
to meet and share my tax return proving my criteria is met for government servi
ces. You keep diverting my offer.
Some of the worst abuse in Minnesota happens Edina, because victims there know t
hey have to put up with people like Dre if they speak up. Did you know they are
building a homeless shelter for teens in Edina? Not because the families are poo
r, but because there are so many kids running from abusive homes! The presence o
f money does not prevent abuse. Kind of odd that this type of attack of victims
takes place on Nadia's own blog, yet she stays completely silent?
4
There you go again with the condescension, "honey". I'll bet my eye teeth you're
either Tony Jones himself, or one of the willing sycophants in his immediate ci
rcle who spend their time jockeying for the role of '"lead narcissistic supply".
4
Kandace Danica - 3 days ago
This is how I felt originally too when people were acting like I was in over my
head. Like they were patting me on the head. :(

KT Pridgen Danica - 3 days ago
I agree with this, which is pretty gross. If you are right, now Tony is co-optin
g the general experience of a WOC to promote his agenda of vengeance against Jul
ie. That's low. And just icky.
3
Danica KT Pridgen - 3 days ago
Tony Jones did just recently refer to himself as a 'transguy'. A narcissist will
invent any identity that suits them at the moment.
3
Oh brother. I doubt he could empathize with anyone else enough to impersonate so
meone different than he and his academic buddies tho!
Let's meet drea. Back down? From what?
1
You can't shut me up. I may not have the family name or money, but I got my voic
e. People here are going to know what you're telling these people.
Stephen M. drea_stanley - 3 days ago
You still haven't told us anything? Some background on Julie's family? Good for
you. A 12 year old with a Facebook account could do the same.
1
Keep talking. No one said shut up. Let's meet tonight. You said you know all abo
ut me so you live in minneapolis. Dunn brothers on xerxes 6pm. See you there. I'
ll bring my tax return since you doubt my poverty. Let's do this.
2
Nobody is trying to shut you up. Julie is trying to talk to you. And it would be
nice if you would answer questions that are asked of you.
1
The world doesn't revolve around Julie. This stinks of such white privilege. No
one (at least not me) has time to be sitting around making lists about her. I di
dn't even know half the stuff she has said here. I didn't know her parents were
wealthy or her brother was a senator or she was in college or she belonged to a
gym. Wow...I can't even type this list without privilege leaking out onto me.
Kandace drea_stanley - 3 days ago
Drea, I actually hear some anger that feels real in my gut in your words. I don'
t think it's fair to say those who oppose one's point of view "must be fake" or
"must be jealous" or whatever. I've seen this on other sites as well and it both
ered me. Anyone who agreed with a commenter was deemed knowledgeable and expert
without having to prove it. Anyone who disagreed was considered a hired saboteur
. I saw it go both ways. I would like to give Drea the opportunity to contact me
as well. Her story is valid on its own, of course, it's not my job to legitimiz
e people, but I just want to offer that as a way of sharing more information in
a safer venue.
1
Ahem. "You wanna know about single moms? MY MOM was a legit single mom who worke
d 3 deadend jobs just to make it into a tiny little house & she always told me w
e don't got time for shit, baby, so TELL IT LIKE IT IS. So you know what all of
you need to do before you donate a dime to this juiced up story? You need to cal
l up one of the guys at Morrie's. Cuz when your POOR single mom showed up last M
ay and bought 2 *TWO* BRAND NEW Mazda CX-es CASH MONEY, she made the sales dude'
s day. Oops. So that's why me and mine we won't be at the fundraiser to help her
trick out her new cars." Either you're lying in the statement I just posted, or
you're lying in your statement that I'm replying to. You're a troll with a fake
account who is probably either Tony, Brian, Doug, or one of their satellite adm
irers looking to garner favor with them by harassing Julie. And that's why you w
on't meet with Julie like she's suggesting because SHE knows it too, and is call
ing your bluff. You realize nobody's buying what you're trying to sell here, rig
ht?
5
Stephen M. Danica - 3 days ago
Yeah I'm starting to suspect it's actually ToJo.
2
Julie would have been happy to resolve this, quietly, 7 years ago. It is not Jul
ie making it last so long.
2
I am white and educated. Absolutely that makes me privileged. It's not fair. How
did my sick and rotten ex not do all I said he did? Sorry you're pissed I am no
t suffering more or that my relatives aren't poor too. Bye Drea.
2
CompassionateCristi - 3 days ago
Okay,so it is troubling to me that this is coming out. I googled what I could an
d obviously there's some truth to what's being said here. Even if Julie underpla
yed her family money and her living situation, however, I want to underscore lyi
ng about that DOES NOT mean she lied about EVERYTHING. We should not automatical
ly discredit her abuse story although we should hold all the information with ca
re. Driving an SUV isn't a crime. And I want to be careful to repeat this messag
e for other victims regardless of what ends up being true about Julie. ****YOU D
ONT HAVE TO BE A PERFECT VICTIM****. I do admit as someone who asked her husband
to donate some money set aside for a rehab project at the house, I am feeling a
little embarrassed.
2
Kandace CompassionateCristi - 3 days ago
I hope we find some answers for you although as you may have read me say above,
this is an overwhelming thing. A few have come forward with personal experiences
that only complicate things further. Praying for guidance.
AussieCarol CompassionateCristi - 3 days ago
I think we're all confused, but hopefully the attention these comments have brou
ght to some new parts of this story will continue to lend more and more help to
all of us wading through the emotions and baggage everywhere.
Guest CompassionateCristi - 3 days ago
My rich relatives relate to my ex how?
1
drea_stanley CompassionateCristi - 3 days ago
Don't feel bad. A lot of people are gonna be embarrassed by this one, girl.
I'm sorry. What exactly are you referring to Drea? I'm right here and transparen
t to answer each and every attempt to victim shame and discredit....go....I'm wa
iting. I want to meet you here in Minneapolis and let's go line for line what yo
u think you know about the abuse I have endured for 7 years. Name the time and p
lace. I can meet tonight after work. Where? When? I'll bring my tax return. I ne
ed to go work my unpaid internship but will respond to every wild distortion you
can bring. Medical records and psych evals don't lie...Drea.
1
Guest CompassionateCristi - 3 days ago
Is my mazda 5 that I lease for $230 a month an suv? wow. someone is working over
time to discredit the victim. I am continually amazed at the machine and its eff
orts to silence and discredit me 7 years later after a shoulder tear and an affa
ir exposed. It happened people. Exactly as I told it and David Hayward was just
the person with enough chutzpah to say screw you when the legal threats were thr
own his way. For 7 years bloggers were told to delete or I will sue you. It was
very effective for a long time. "I will tear your head off if you tell anyone."
Yep! That was said word for word so it is not surprising that the machine to sil
ence and discredit me is in overdrive. Affairs and abuse can hurt book sales I h
ear so lets just throw the mother of my children under the bus despite medical r
ecords and psych evals.
4
Wait. Hold up. Did you get a second Mazda 5 for your nanny too? Because your pri
vilege is showing and I ain't one of these snooty Edina folks who are too timid
to say what is real.
Abuse is real, drea. And that matters.
Privilege is a separate issue, which also matters.
But people don't deserve to lose advocacy just because they get details wrong, h
ave more money than you, or have more privilege than you.
You can tear other women down in an attempt to reduce their privilege to your le
vel. But that's a lose-lose scenario.
Why not advocate for all the abused and marginalised, whatever their level of pr
ivilege?
2
I hate Edina! I can't move or I would in a heart beat. You got me all wrong but
go ahead. I stand firm I'm the truth and not sure what my financial woes have to
do with the fact my ex with a PhD from Princeton could but refuses to help us l
ive comfortably. Sorry I am not as poor as you want me Drea but rest assured you
r kids aren't qualified for government lunch unless you meet criteria proven wit
h tax returns. Peace, Drea! Again....meet me. Or are you too afraid?!
2
last time a checked a mazda was hardly a flashy car. My ex to sabotage my gradua
te school efforts and working two jobs registered my 3 kids for activities all s
ummer long against the legal decree (only mom can register) I had to lease a car
for her to drive the kids all day, Now I am stuck with it and trying to get som
eone to take over the lease. its a 2013 mazda 3 basic model gets great gas milea
ge. Not new like you alleged and it's $230 a month I can't afford. Interested dr
ea? bring it! that's all you have? wrong car facts?
Wow. You're the only impoverished single mom in the country who has two cars for
them and their nanny. You don't need my help to dig yourself a hole, do you?
I don't have a nanny. Are you offering to help?
1
Danica Guest - 3 days ago
I'll help! If it's as sweet a job as "drea" makes it out to be, I'm allll over i
t. Is caviar part of the perks? What about a satin stool to rest my feet upon wh
ilst I feast on bon bons and imported cheese?
1
Are you saying that domestic abuse never occurs in Edina, MN?
No it sure as hell does. But folks better figure out who they're dealing with wh
en they come to the story. What this woman is saying here wouldn't fly in Edina.
I don't care who you got in the room white people, light skinned people, dark s
kinned people (in edina let's stay real its white folk mostly), they would laugh
you outta town.
Tony and Julie are both from Edina. Are you saying they are not, individually, r
esponsible for their marriage, and their children? that grandma and grandpa will
always cover the bill? That sounds like an Edina attitude. But in the rest of t
he country, adults are personally responsible for their kids. We shouldn't be ta
lking about grandparents and uncles paying the bills. We should be talking about
Tony and Julie's responsibility. How are Tony's child support payments these da
ys, by the way?

1
Carol Curry CurtisMSP - a day ago
originally the support payments were 1800 and he made them on time according to
court records. They were modified and now she owes him money because he overpaid
...miscalculated by her lawyer when he had none..and also because he ended up ha
ving the kids more than 45 percent of the time which was the original custody ar
rangement that gave her that amount of child support. Since he had the kids in r
eality more than 50 percent of the time because she left them with him...support
was reduced. Any way you slice it...if I had received half of the support payme
nts Julie has collected...I would have been on easy street. And as for the dragg
ing her into court....it seems that the lion share of the court proceedings has
been due to Julie's constant filings and best I can tell...she never wins the on
es she brings.
BethAgain CompassionateCristi - 3 days ago
Yes, this is true and it's what makes this case so potentially complicated. Vict
ims can act poorly and still be victims. Just because someone is unreliable does
n't mean the claims should be ignored. But if there are red flags (and there wer
e in this case from the start) then caution must be taken in jumping to conclusi
ons. It does not mean you are "siding with the abuser" if you see some potential
problems and think they should be investigated. Staying neutral until more is i
nvestigated is legitimate I think, as long as the claims are still being investi
gated and not ignored. Sometimes it takes a great deal of skill and mental healt
h knowledge to tease the truth out of what seems obvious at first. There are man
y who are close to this situation, who have direct experience with those involve
d, who are not acting in ways we would have expected given their public position
s. That might be because they are motivated by endorsements or bias or whatever.
But maybe, just maybe, they also understand how complicated this case is and se
e that all the public attention paid to it has not helped two people trying to s
tay mentally healthy and parent their kids.
1
JuliannaX CompassionateCristi - 3 days ago
I admit I am far away from the situation, but a source I trusted kept posting ab
out this and I repeated it to other people so this IS a big deal for me. I need
to be able to trust that victim advocates look into things before repeating. I'v
e read that Julie was driven into poverty about a zillion times. I am pretty sur
e I've reposted that on my social media after seeing some sites and people I tho
ught were legitimate post it. It is NOT okay to exploit people's sympathy or try
to win credibility points by making up facts that are actually true of many rea
l victims who are strapped, living on welfare, renting subsidized houses...and n
ot home owners who have AUPAIRS. I am sick to my stomach now. This is really tri
ggering my trust issues.
1
CurtisMSP JuliannaX - 3 days ago
Are you saying that women with au pairs are never abused? Edina MN is a differen
t world. In Edina, poverty means having to cancel your country club membership.
(I live in Bloomington so I am entitled to make Edina jokes!) But just because w
omen struggling in Edina do not match your definition of poverty, does that make
any abuse they experience less abusive, or less important?
Ha. You know then, right? Bloomington! I am all about women speaking up. If you
haven't picked up on it, I was RAISED to STAND UP. You want to say you were abus
ed? Go to it. I will talk you up. You want to load a bunch of crap onto your sto
ry to try to get people who have never met you and don't know what your real rep
utation is, that's a problem. That isn't okay. It's a special kind a sick, man.
You guys got hosed.
I'm glad you are in favor of Julie speaking up. The Emergent folks have been try
ing to shut her up for seven years. If she is all exagerared stories and nonsens
e with clearly no basis in fact, it makes you wonder what they were afraid of, d
oesn't it?
2
Guest JuliannaX - 3 days ago
I do not have an au pair. I did work for an au pair agency and was able to host
an au pair at a deep discount. An au pair is $175 a week. It is the cheapest for
m of childcare btw and I can't afford one anymore anyway. Last au pair I had was
last August. Since I no longer work there and am in graduate school that is out
of the question. I hate that my kids are home alone while I work but that's the
situation. Home owner? Hardly. I am living in a house my mother owned. I do not
own a home. Where is this person getting their information anyway? 7 years of l
itigation has kept me in poverty and I owe the last law firm $20,000. I am worri
ed they will take my car. I am disgusted I am answering all of these allegations
but I will and I have never lied once about the abuse I continue to endure at t
he hands of a diagnosed narcissist. I will post my tax return. That is how infur
iating this is that this person who thinks they know what they are talking about
has lobbed into the air. You can't get government aide without qualifying. Beca
use I have a wealthy relative has nothing to do with my current financial strugg
les.
2
WOW. Do you know how many times my mom had an au pair? ZERO. I love how you drop
$175 a week which is almost $800 a month like it's nothing. That's rich girl ta
lk right there, baby.
You clearly don't like rich white girls.
But they can still be victims of abuse, and they can still be driven into povert
y. Or is $20,000 debt not poverty where you come from?
What does an au pair have to do with abuse? Are women with au pairs immune from
abuse?
3
Danica CurtisMSP - 3 days ago
SHUT UP YOUR PRIVILEDGED MOUTH YOU WHITE MAN! "drea"s fake profile says she's a
WOC from a disadvantaged background so we must ALL BE QUIET AND ALLOW HER TO SAY
ALL THE THINGS. If you disagree, that's your privilege showing, you racist miso
gynist.
2
Ouch. Is it getting hot in here or is it just me? Guess there are some gaps here
and like I said yesterday, maybe this Kandace girl is onto something with pokin
g around this thing a little more. If I were one of the trolls, I'd be sending s
omeone over to tell Kandace to "strongly reconsider" posting any findings about
Julie as well. But that's not silencing, right?
From what I've read, Kandace is being encouraged by everyone to do her research
and post her findings. Where have you read otherwise?
2
Kandace,
I would like to fully cooperate with your thorough investigation including offer
ing the 22 page psychological evaluation, 46 page divorce decree, 29 page custod
y evaluation which awarded me sole physical and sole legal custody due to the se
verity of this particular mental illness, sex emails while still married, threat
s to "sue to the fullest extent of the law if you tell anyone about Courtney Per
ry." Contact me, Kandace. I sought help for domestic vilolence and an affair and
was threatened, bullied, and litigated to death, For 7 years I was silenced and
a "she is bat shit crazy" campaign was launched by my ex husband to discredit t
he truth. Many people came forward and apologized for spreading the narrative th
e Emergent machine wanted proliferated. They said, " I am so sorry. I never even
met you but was told you were insane and he the suffering spouse." The truth is
out there now. It was hidden in darkness at great effort by many for too long.
If you do not comprehend the magnitude of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder di
agnosis with "sadistic traits" then you will never understand the full picture o
f this diabolical story. Those who get it....get it. I am tired of defending mys
elf to the likes of Drea. Isn't it a lot more plausible it all happened and is h
appening STILL as I have reported? I thank David Hayward and a few brave blogger
s for not cowering in the corner and deleting the truth like the throngs of blog
gers over the past 7 years who were contacted through back channels and threaten
ed to delete or be sued. Contact me Kandace. I am waiting.
Julie
1
drea_stanley - 3 days ago
I can't believe how scared grown people are sometimes. I don't know who the hell
JenSwishes is, but "I can't talk about the McMahon or Jones family bc I wouldn'
t want people to talk about my family." Seriously? Grow the Fu*K up. No sense pl
aying stupid, people have a right to know if they're being played. You wanna kno
w about single moms? MY MOM was a legit single mom who worked 3 deadend jobs jus
t to make it into a tiny little house & she always told me we don't got time for
shit, baby, so TELL IT LIKE IT IS. So you know what all of you need to do befor
e you donate a dime to this juiced up story? You need to call up one of the guys
at Morrie's. Cuz when your POOR single mom showed up last May and bought 2 *TWO
* BRAND NEW Mazda CX-es CASH MONEY, she made the sales dude's day. Oops. So that
's why me and mine we won't be at the fundraiser to help her trick out her new c
ars.
what are you talking about? bought two cars? have you heard of the penny sale? I
lease reliable vehicles for cheap. am I really defending this? My job pays $11
an hour. That's about as dead end as you can get. I am in school trying to pull
us out of poverty. where are you getting your information and why are you so rab
idly working overtime to discredit the victim? I find that interesting. The affa
ir, cover up, abuse all happened and all the smear in the world can't cover that
up. Morrie's Mazda penny sale. It's a great deal for a person needing a reliabl
e car and can't afford to buy one. I had to lease one for my sitter to drive my
kids all day last summer to activities while I worked. I made $3 dollars more an
hour than a paid her. What else do you got Drea? Bring it.
2
Discredit the victim? I can't figure out who the damn victim is in this mess, ho
ney. Clearly you got yours either way, right? If you want to pass your $800 a mo
nth AuPair and $100 a month gym and TWO --leased-- Mazdas off as POVERTY, well I
think there's a whole bunch of people who are actually IN poverty that might no
t see it that way. Check your privilege.
BaileyWriter drea_stanley - 3 days ago
No offense, but this feels really far-fetched. I can't believe that these watchd
og sites would have been holding GoFundMe campaigns if this woman is known to be
buying two suvs cash.
1
BaileyWriter BaileyWriter - 3 days ago
PLUS I get how if that ended up being true it would make her look like she is sp
inning a story, but just because she may have misrepresented her access to money
to play on people's sympathies doesn't mean that the abuse allegations couldn't
be true. She may have just been desperate to be heard and felt like making up s
ome unimportant irrelevant details was what it took to get people's attention. V
ictims don't have the same luxuries as those who are safe.
1
JuliannaX BaileyWriter - 3 days ago
I want to affirm what you're saying. I just feel a little nervous right now. My
fingers are literally shaking as I type. This is triggering all my trust issues.
Exploiting is never okay. Manipulating is never okay. I don't care if you're th
e most powerful liberal woman who heads up the most progressive feminist organiz
ation, you don't get to put out propaganda about someone to solicit money. That
reeks of evangelical scandal and that's why I came to some of these sites to beg
in with.
drea_stanley BaileyWriter - 3 days ago
Oh honey, you know what people who own their sh*t call what you're going through
? DENIAL. I'd back away before this blows up. It doesn't sound like you have a c
lue what kind of person you're tangling with when you mess with Julie. Put her o
n speedial cuz when this thing blows, you're gonna have a pile of new info you'r
e gonna want to talk to her about.
Hi Drea. I am not sure what you are referring to. When a blogger in September re
fused to back down to the usual threats and legal attacks....my truth was finall
y told. It amazes me the machine behind trying to discredit that truth. The trut
h remains. It happened and is happening today. This is what NPD looks like 7 yea
rs post divorce. Every word and effort that has been made to silence me is true.
Julie
1
ShaynaG - 4 days ago
OMG. I am experiencing RAGE right now. The guy that keeps questioning Candace an
d telling her what to do? Who gives him the right to tell her not to investigate
? Where to start, who to ask. That is so disrespectful of her intellect. If she
sees something worth looking into, she's probably not alone. And anyone interest
ed in real truth and not just spreading gossip wouldn't be spending any time try
ing to convince someone not to look into the trolls who are spreading this stuff
. I call foul.
1
CurtisMSP ShaynaG - 4 days ago
For the record, I'm one guy helping her investigate. So it is not like everyone
is against her.
ShaynaG CurtisMSP - 4 days ago
Then stop telling her she should start in the center or not start in the center
or move this way or that way. That's your opinion and it deligitimizes her right
to come to this discussion from her own experiences. Her opinions and ideas are
valid without your addendums and instructions.
1
It was a suggestion, and I gave my reasoning. But I told her to try it her way i
f she wants to. You can go back and follow the thread if you'd like.
1
If you go poking around the haters trolling Tony, you're just gonna find out thi
s group is all doing it for different reasons. Drury's been covered in major med
ia for trolling Driscoll so probably there's nothing new to figure out there. Re
ligious satire (or whatever you call it) is her thing. Some people might be in i
t just cause they hate Jones (just sayin) and want to see him fried. They don't
even care why. You can usually spot those people 1000 miles away bc they always
keep it personal and RT stuff that's not even relevant but just like being mean.
Daniel Pool BigBrowner - 2 days ago
You say "trolling Driscoll" like it's a bad thing.
Stephanie Drury BigBrowner - 3 days ago
If you want to call exposing systemic abuse "trolling" then you're not internali
zing what happens out there. I work with survivors of violence and their reports
of abuse are consistently minimized and brushed aside. People who purport to be
advocates even do this, as evidenced by Nadia and Rachel's response to Julie's
story. It's responsible for so much destruction. I feel it's purely evil. If you
want to call naming patterns of abuse "trolling" then you're playing into the h
ands of those who would suppress its exposure.
7
Or, there is always the chance that some people don't like the church used to pu
ff up one's own career, while similataniously using the church to tamp down crit
ics. Especially when the critics raise legitimate concerns about domestic abuse
by clergy, but are met by being deleted or ignored.
5
bethanyann73 - 4 days ago
I don't understand why anyone is arguing with this girl who wants to check into
sources. She seems naive and I'm afraid she's over her head with this bunch. But
the whole point of all of this is no one gets to control the story! I think it'
s sketchy if the "don't silence people" suddenly want to divert people from more
light. Hiding something?
1
Guest bethanyann73 - 2 days ago
I have asked her to contact me. No one has contacted me. No one with any financi
al or career gain. Not one.
ShaynaG bethanyann73 - 4 days ago
This is what I am saying. No one owns the exclusive right to investigate this st
ory and no one has the jurisdiction to tell other people what or how they should
approach this. I seriously hope this was just a gut response gone wrong and not
a display of male ego lording over this girl.
BigBrowner bethanyann73 - 4 days ago
I agree. If people silence or pressure or troll you (if you're on social media,
I'd make sure your name doesn't match your name here ), I would look at their co
nnections. Who is pushing them to shut you up? Also look for business operators
like DH or unknowns like TWB who came out of nowhere and maybe see this as their
free ticket to get "Warren Throckmorton" famous. I'd like to see how this group
works together too. Keep an eye out for parodies all run by the same person too
. I'll send you an email with others I have heard questions raised about.
1
CurtisMSP bethanyann73 - 4 days ago
One of the problems of telling a story from the outside in is there is no clear
boundary on who to talk to. Do you include only those with 2nd hand knowledge, o
r 3rd or 4th or 5th, and so on, as well? You cant investigate something without
setting boundaries. But using her strategy, any line you draw is going to be arb
itrary and result in an incomplete picture. Seems much more straight forward to
start at the source -- Tony and Julie. And if you can't get information there, g
o to the people who are able to talk to both if them directly, like Nadia. I don
't see how working from the outside in will work. But I'm not opposed to try it
if someone wants to.
ShaynaG CurtisMSP - 4 days ago
Oh my God. Who do you think you are?! Do you think as a man that you can just sw
oop in here and tell this girl what she can and cannot wonder about or want to k
now about? That she needs you to tutor her about how to think about this? Oh Kan
dice, look this way, look over there next, but don't look behind that door or th
at door or that door. It is sick. This is ugly and it needs to STOP.
1
I told her I'm not opposed yo investigating. I even gave her some ideas where to
look, and she thanked me. I am explaining why I think it will be hard to follow
her approach. If you disagree, you are welcome to explain why. But I wish her w
ell in her efforts. Asking questions from the inside out hasn't produced much, s
o I am not opposed to asking questions from the outside in; hard as it might be.
1
CurtisMSP bethanyann73 - 4 days ago
Not everyone is criticizing her. Some people are helping out. Seems like a lot o
f work to paint a picture from the outside in, but if painting from center out h
asn't worked, it might be worth a try.
1
I did feel like you were being controlling and maybe suggesting I should turn my
head and look the other way. LOL. I appreciate your tone and clarifiers here th
ough. Let's just all do our best to bring our own unique experience and talent t
o this and respect each other's right to ask questions and check sources etc.
((Sorry for the typos and edits. I wrote this on a tablet and my typing skills s
uck on those.) I have seen a lot of pushback against the well known personalitie
s who have made statements on Tony's behalf. Things that looked into how their r
evenue streams were linked and such. I confess it never occurred to me (embarras
sing?) to personally check into the sources who continue to post and tweet and h
ashtag about this. Eveb though I did also notice it's often the same group of pe
ople, until today that made sense to me bc I assumed they were local residents o
r disaffected leaders in The congregation where tony Jones serves. It made sense
they would have firsthand information and would naturally have reason to hold T
ony jones accountable if these allegations were true. Looking back, I am not sur
e why I thought this. After I read JenSwisher's post below, I began to google so
me of the people who continue to post about this and I found it is a pretty conf
ined and linked group of people as well. I think there are a variety of reasons
people might have involved themselves at this level however. They could be prone
to being protective of victims bc they have experienced abuse themselves or som
ething like that. But I don't think it would hurt to look into this more. If oth
ers are willing to help me identify the people who have most consistently tried
to draw attention to this, I would be happy to try to get one of my reporter fri
ends or even a regional foundation that funds peacemaking work to investigate th
ese sources. I think it would be great to give these people the opp to share the
ir stories and hear from them directly about how well they know Tony or Julie an
d how deeply they have been involved or what they have been eyewitness to. It ca
n only serve to help all of us understand each other and the sources/credibility
of the information better. Please feel free to reply to this comment with the n
ames of people whose names stand out to you below or volunteer yourself if you a
re someone who has raised accusations after being locally or closely tied to the
situation over the years. Thanks everyone. I love how we can collectively bring
so much light to this scenario.
2
Reinforcing Danica's point -- any thorough investigation would start with interv
iewing the victim and reading any if her statements that are available. The prim
ary complaint against Tony, as well as Nadia, is that he has ignored and wrongly
discredited the accuser. Any good investigation has to start with not ignoring
the accuser, lest it become part of the same pattern of ignoring and dismissing
the alleged victim.
1
CurtisMSP CurtisMSP - 4 days ago
Another source of both criticism as well as support has been the closed ELCA Cle
rgy FB group. You would want to look there, as well, if you want a comprehensive
list of persistent critics.
Totally agree. I have cheered on every person bringing Julie's account to light
so that she is able to tell her story about HER OWN life! I've been a careful re
ader of her many comments on several sites and social media posts which have des
cribed in detail her complaints. Her story is further captured by documents also
available via court records which you can find on Brad's post, if you're lookin
g for more. Allowing the general public to understand who the others are who hav
e presented themselves as sources of information and opinion on this only allows
everyone's investigations/data to work together to inform us. Thanks for your i
nsights, Curtis!
If you have cheered on the telling of Julie's account, what has your response be
en to those have deleted Julie's account, or dismissed her as mentally unstable?
1
Because when concerns are raised, one should always start by questioning the cha
racter of the accuser, right? Go ahead, knock yourself out. Investigate all you
want. We have nothing to hide; we are much more accustomed to being deleted and
ignored, so if you are willing to listen that is great. You can start by going t
o the SCCL facebook page and researching people who have posted about it there.
The wartburg watch and David Hayward's blog would be good sources to\363, if tha
t helps. Just be sure to spend equal energy investigating TJ and his network.
1
Not at all. I've been following this story for months. I've found several source
s analyzing Tony which I can share if you email me. BC of some comments here and
on other sites, some have questioned the goals of the people continuing to put
this in the public eye. Now that so much web traffic has been generated to creat
e space for Julie to tell her story, it'd be helpful to understand what is drivi
ng this small group of people to continue. It can only add more light. And I agr
ee with you, those who have nothing to hide don't have anything to worry about.
This is just an opportunity for them to reinforce their credibility and share mo
re of their own stories. And if there is any other motives or connections that a
re motivating them, I think that would be important too.
Danica Kandace - 4 days ago
Well you could certainly start by talking to Julie McMahon herself.
2
Kandace Danica - 4 days ago
I accept that Julie and Tony are eyewitnesses to their marriage and have appreci
ated the chance to listen to their respective accounts, which have been given a
lot of web space already. Just filling out the picture now by sorting through wh
o these sources are and how they are related. More light, you know?
It seems obvious that you start coloring the picture by talking to Tony and Juli
e first. Let us know what you find out.
1
I'll give you a hint. Most of us trying to keep this from getting pushed under t
he rug are doing so because we've been there, in one way or another. Look me up.
That's fine. Tony is following the same script my ex followed, the same script
that so many men have followed to discredit women. That's why I've been commenti
ng online. Although I'm not sure why you need the cops involved, but whatever ma
kes you feel like you are covering all your bases.
3
Thanks for sharing! I have already received a couple emails and so far it's been
unsurprising stuff. I appreciate you being forthcoming about how your own exper
iences have played into your desire to be active in this conversation. Actually,
no one who has responded so far has mentioned your name as someone pushing an a
genda, but since you kindly replied, would you be willing to clarify if you also
have personally been an eyewitness to any of the in person actions between Tony
and Julie? (I think he was saying a retired cop might have online investigative
skills. That's how I took it anyways.)
The public characterization of Julie as mentally insane is available for anyone
to read who wants to do a little research. Anyone who looks has been an eyewitne
ss to that.
1
No, I don't know either of them personally. That's why I have generally tried to
limit my comments to the things that have been supported by the released docume
nts (that Tony was emotionally abusive). I'm frustrated by the hypocrisy of a gr
oup that will call Mark Driscoll out for his abuses but ignore it in their own c
amp. I also think many of his blog posts show that he has no humility and no rea
l concern for the marginalized in the church which makes him, IMO, a poor Christ
ian leader in and of itself. But mostly it's the abuse.
4
Thanks again for your response. Appreciate your transparency. I also think it sh
ows a lot of wisdom that you've exercised caution in the claims you've made. It
actually gives the things you do say, like lack of humility, more credibility in
my mind because it shows you aren't just venting bc you hate him but are making
an effort to be responsible about what you pass along. Thanks again.
Kandace, I keep offering. Contact me. Julie
1
Thanks for the polite interaction! I also wanted to add that I do *believe* Juli
e when she says Tony was physically abusive and has been abusing her through the
legal system through constant litigation. The latter especially does fit the co
mmon behavior of a person with NPD who has not accepted the damage their disorde
r causes. But having no direct contact with either, I find it more responsible f
or me personally to focus on what I feel I *know* (via the released documents).
1
SHPryor1 Kandace - 5 days ago
I think you are brave to even suggest this. It might be a good idea for you to s
et up a few ways for people to contact you with information about those pushing
this agenda. I recently learned about a conflict of interest with one of those w
ho has tried to rally people around these allegations and I would be willing to
share it privately, but not here. It might also be good for a few people to work
together on this so there are more perspectives and more eyes to help identify
everyone's subtle biases.
1
Guest SHPryor1 - 3 days ago
I am happy to speak to anyone.
Kandace SHPryor1 - 5 days ago
I understand SHPRyor. Anyone who has a similar tip or would like to help can ema
il me at this address: kandacebrenner@email.com.
B_Class Kandace - 5 days ago
I would be really curious to hear about these people's experiences. While I am s
ure the people who retweet or like things don't necessarily have personal experi
ence that is relevant, I would be surprised if I found out those who are pushing
these allegations around the internet don't each have lengthy ties to the Jones
family. If they don't, they've just put themselves in a bad position. I also ha
ven't seen any of the writers who have been digging into this like R.L. Stollar
or Brad Sargent cover this angle by investigating the sources of a lot of the ma
terial that ends up on Twitter etc. Although I guess Stollar and Sargent themsel
ves would be on the list technically.
1
Kandace B_Class - 5 days ago
Update: two more emails came in late last night. A couple things. The list is no
t as long as I thought. It is actually a relatively small group of people who ar
e Posting about this online. Two, so far, it looks like I was a little off base.
None of the people driving the allegations online were in shared leadership, li
ve locally or knew the couple prior to divorce etc. Several of the most active s
harers run watchdog websites where religious critique is their primary content.
Kandace Kandace - 5 days ago
There HAS been a few notes of concern about a couple individuals who have been c
onsumed by posting this on social media. Some conflicts of interest and personal
profit questions have come up, as well as some real concerns about how disconne
cted a couple of them are especially those living far away who have become so co
nsumed by it. I have had some referrals to people with online research expertise
who might be able to help determine if a couple of them are even real people. T
his will likely take a while but we will find a way to share out. For today, I d
on't want to dominate this discussion on a day of religious remembrance that may
be sacred to many here. I will make sure the research is done thoroughly and is
shared publicly though.

Ragnarok Kandace - 3 days ago
So let me see if I'm reading this correctly. You appear to be suggesting that yo
u've discovered some people who have been persisting in keeping Julie's story in
the public eye are doing so despite conflicts of interest and for personal prof
it. Is that the gist of it? Likewise, your statement that you "have had some ref
errals to people with online research expertise who might be able to help determ
ine if a couple of them are even real people" could easily be interpreted as a v
eiled threat of potential doxxing. After all, whomever you happen to be referrin
g to must be real people unless we're seeing an incipient rise of the machines i
n the form of computers posting online autonomously. Can you share your plans co
ncerning what you mean to do with your research should you find that these sourc
es have remained anonymous online for specific reasons, as they undoubtedly have
? It's one thing for private individuals to criticize a public figure such as To
ny Jones anonymously, even when that criticism addresses otherwise private actio
ns since he has routinely claimed that his ex-wife is unstable to the point wher
e it became a widely held belief in his circle of influence. It's a similar thin
g for people to criticize Julie McMahon, despite her status as a private individ
ual, because she made the choice to go public with her story. Publishing the ide
ntities of private individuals who have commented online under pseudonyms, regar
dless of how extensive or vitriolic that commentary may have been, is quite like
ly subject to a number of laws. By all means, do your research. Before you make
the decision to begin publishing your findings, however, I would strongly urge y
ou to consider carefully what the potential consequences are. At the very least,
consult a professional beforehand. You're treading very near a line beyond whic
h lies considerable risk.
1
Guest Ragnarok - 2 days ago
His supporters do not know me. I met Brian McLaren once in 2007. I know Doug Pag
itt well and he knows that I am an amazing mom and person. In fact, he asked me
to help start his church plant in 1999. I believe he is torn and has too many fi
nancial ties to be honest about all of the BS that went down and he looked (and
continues to look) the other way. He has not been honest about his part in tryin
g to cover up the affair he knew about and he and I both know that. As far as th
e vast network of authors, speakers, promoters....they don't know me and have ne
ver met me but have dutifully globed on to the narrative to keep the empire and
interlocked contracts alive. Never underestimate the power and machinations of a
narcissist. This has been like shouting into a hurricane and I will keep talkin
g. The truth gives me great peace and it should be told. This "Godly people" are
frauds. It's very disappointing.
2
SHPryor1 B_Class - 5 days ago
I do think the bloggers should be on the list although I expect as you do that t
hey know this family personally or had some shared leadership experience with th
em in the Emergent movement. Still research should still examine all the sources
to sift out what's what.
1
SHPryor1 SHPryor1 - 5 days ago
It might also be good to start making lists of hashtags that have been used and
screen capping people who have tweeted using these hashtags.
1
B_Class B_Class - 5 days ago
I would also like to add that you should probably not use the peacemaking organi
zation as they wouldn't have the correct skill sets. A seasoned reporter that ha
s reputable investigative work would be good. I'll also check with a former cop
friend who has done work with online stings in retirement. Maybe he'll have some
ideas as well.
1
I would totally welcome his help or anyone else with this sort of background. Es
pecially those with technological skills.

B_Class - 5 days ago
After all of this appeared on the R.L. Stollar site, I personally wrote several
of the companies and organizations that are affiliated with Tony in which I knew
employees. I asked them why they were continuing to employ a known abuser and s
uggested their silence was deafening. I was surprised when one of them responded
by stating that their company's lawyers and their board had looked into the all
egations extensively, costing the company hundreds or maybe even thousands of do
llars in legal fees. They said that this case had been severely misrepresented b
y well-meaning watchdog communities and that the actual total body of evidence s
uggests a far more complex scenario that does NOT implicate Tony Jones as a phys
ical abuser. (They did acknowledge it was a terrible divorce, but would not comm
ent on the specifics despite my follow-up questions.) I have asked them twice no
w to publicly respond, but they do not believe doing so would help correct the p
ublic record since many of these matters have been argued about and have had jud
gments rendered about them for years. While I don't condone the lack of transpar
ency in these dealings, I have noticed that A LOT of reputable Christians and or
ganizations who have far more power than Tony does have continued to align thems
elves with him while an increasingly small group of people keep putting this inf
o out in public. That makes me think there is something to this company's respon
se because I don't think they would risk the liability or PR disaster if they di
dn't have rock solid evidence that something was amiss in these allegations. I a
m still following this case open-mindedly, but the certainty of their legal depa
rtment gives me great pause since they have every reason in the world to want to
protect their own brands from this publicity nightmare.
2
Please feel free to email me. No one asked me to explore your connections, but s
ince you have volunteered info, it might be helpful.
Ragnarok B_Class - 3 days ago
Surely we don't need to go over the long list of supposedly reputable companies
which have either committed or covered up terrible acts when it's clear they wou
ld have ultimately been much better off had they simply come clean from the star
t. We really don't, do we? Both individuals and companies have been rendering th
emselves complicit in acts they did not commit for no good reason for as long as
there have been individuals and companies. It strikes me as potentially naive o
n your part to accept the story you've been told. A company which is supposed to
face real liability in this matter continues to employ and to associate with a
Christian leader who is facing serious allegations of abuse after having "looked
into the allegations extensively", but that same company refuses to release the
findings of its legal department publicly because what you characterize as "an
increasingly small group of people" have argued the opposite of those findings?
This scenario strikes you as plausible? Furthermore, you mention that you've not
iced "A LOT (sic) of reputable Christians and organizations who have far more po
wer than Tony does have continued to align themselves with him", and somehow you
've concluded that this behavior serves to exonerate Tony Jones? Are you unaware
of Rachel Held Evans's infamous claim of having thoroughly investigated the all
egations against Tony Jones only to backtrack immediately upon being challenged,
and then her follow-up statement clarifying that her investigation did not incl
ude speaking to either Tony Jones or Julie McMahon? I sincerely hope you are not
laboring under the misapprehension that Christians and faith-based organization
s would never participate in a cover-up, knowingly or otherwise, due to their ow
n interests. It's also the case that sometimes people are so invested in somethi
ng or someone that they don't investigate reports of bad behavior because they j
ust don't want to face the reality of their own mistakes. It's a very human fail
ing. Limiting ourselves to just this century, we've already had notable examples
of exactly this sort of thing related to Paul Crouch, Douglas Goodman, Kent Hov
ind, Ted Haggard, Paul Barnes, Lonnie Latham, Gilbert Deya, Richard Roberts, Ear
l Paulk, Coy Privette, Thomas Wesley Weeks, III, Michael Reid, Joe Barron, Todd
Bentley, and George Alan Rekers, to name only a few with even a modicum of notor
iety. Haven't heard of every person on that list? Well, if that's the case it's
because some of them aren't superstars of evangelical Christianity, and that wou
ld serve to demonstrate that one doesn't need massive wealth at risk in order to
be up to no good and receiving aid in covering it up. How many times have we he
ard large organizations who were supposed to have some degree of authority or in
fluence over those under scrutiny assure the world that they had investigated th
e person in question exhaustively, and subsequently cleared them, only to discov
er that the allegations were true? (Answer: Many, many times.) None of the above
proves anything specifically applying to Tony Jones, but if you wish to conclud
e (even provisionally) that what you've cited in your comment aids Jones's case
then I would strongly urge you to reconsider. A private statement of support acc
ompanied by a refusal to follow through publicly doesn't bespeak confidence. Con
jecture based upon such a statement is an exceptionally bad idea, and it bespeak
s a real desire to believe those in power over those who claim to be victims of
that power.
3
wordvixen B_Class - 3 days ago
Is this a religious company? Because if their concern is over their reputation b
y allying with him, then maybe they should be concerned with his almost-concrete
ly-provable cheating on his wife.
2
Danica B_Class - 4 days ago
They read the police report and concluded he didn't physically assault her? I th
ink perhaps they need to find new lawyers.
4
KT Pridgen B_Class - 5 days ago
"They said that this case had been severely misrepresented by
well-meaning watchdog communities and that the actual total body of
evidence suggests a far more complex scenario that does NOT implicate
Tony Jones as a physical abuser." And what about emotional abuse? The documents
I've seen are pretty clear that Tony was gaslighting Julie, which is emotional a
buse. Should we tolerate emotional abuse from our Christian leaders as long as i
t doesn't turn into physical abuse?
3
Mark - 6 days ago
So many of us raised within evangelicalism or other religious industrial complex
es had hoped that folks like Nadia, Rachel Held Evans, and Brian McLaren might l
eave behind the lust for money, fame and book deals/endorsements that plagues We
stern Christianity and show us something different. Rather, the dismissive, Vati
can-like silence in the face of serious allegations shows us that these progress
ives/emergents are just the latest mutation in the cancerous Christianity of the
West. While some involved in the Tony-Julie story have already apologized to Ju
lie in the Naked Pastor thread (and thus confirmed that there is indeed wrongdoi
ng here), these progressive "leaders" claim there is nothing to be concerned wit
h other than purchasing the alleged abuser's latest book. Indeed, they assure us
there is no need to stop the presses of the latest must-have controversial book
(that we are promised will change our lives forever) -- no need to proceed caut
iously and investigate serious allegations. Publication dates must be met, CNN b
logs posted, and speaking/book tours kept on schedule. And so, those of us who h
ave watched history repeat itself over and over for decades can, with little dou
bt, toss the writings and opinions of this lot onto the trash heap with Jim and
Tammy Bakker, Benny Hinn, Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, John Piper, Mark Driscoll,
and on-and-on the list goes and grows. Far from resurrection Sunday, American C
hristianity buries itself deeper into the doom of Good Friday.
2
Stephen M. - 6 days ago
This is insane. People aren't "questioning" someone's integrity. This diagnosed
narcissist has sued his abused ex-wife into oblivion, gas lighted her and gotten
all his "progressive" buddies to do the same. The court documents have been rel
eased and they are incredibly damning. Does that mean we should damn him to hell
? Of course not! But we shouldn't shut victims up because we have endorsement de

als or an affinity for the "celebrity" who did the abusing. What is wrong with y
ou people? Nadia I used to look up to you, you helped me feel like there were pe
ople in Christianity who weren't afraid of the bully's and abusers and now you p
rotect one? Wouldn't it be more Christ-like to show him and his victims love and
ask for help instead of circling the wagons? I'm done. If this is how your Jesu
s acts you follow a Jesus who is very different from the one I see in the Bible
who loved and cared for the victims and the abused.
9
Karen - 6 days ago
Lots of comments here questioning the moral character and integrity of the autho
r. My understanding is that we have only had one perfect teacher in all of histo
ry...and we only got Him once in the flesh a long, long time ago. Since Him, we'
ve been stuck with leaders, philosophers, pastors, twitter, teachers, priests, w
riters, church elders, Mtv, monks, poets, nuns, facebook, gurus, family and frie
nds all of whom are full of faults, mistakes, impure thoughts, idiosyncrasies, a
nd sometimes downright bad manners. We are not supposed to worship them. We are
not supposed to idolize them. We are not supposed to devote our lives to them an
d hang off of every word they utter, or think that just because they said one th
ing that makes sense everything they say must be right. If the only teachers we
had were perfect and exactly lived up to the ideals they expressed, our library
shelves and book stores would be empty of books, our schools would be empty of t
eachers, and our lives (and heads) would be all the emptier as well. Thank goodn
ess moral perfection isn't a requirement to teach or share one's thoughts and id
eas. Thank goodness we are just as free to pick and choose the authors we wish t
o read, as we are free to ignore or reject the ones we don't. And thank goodness
we don't have to sign a disclaimer swearing eternal fealty (even temporary feal
ty) to every thought and idea inside every book we pick up - or to the authors t
hemselves. Reading a book does not endorse its ideas, nor does it endorse the au
thor. And endorsing the content of one book does not endorse every single decisi
on or statement its author has ever made, or his/her lifestyle. So make your own
choices, learn what you can or want from others, reject what you need to reject
, and be at peace...
4
Ragnarok Karen - 3 days ago
...and pay no mind to the report that the endorser of the author hung up on a wo
man asking for her help because she didn't want to hear about the bad things the
author had done. Furthermore, there is no need to give any level of considerati
on to the endorser's decision to more closely associate with the author publicly
and professionally despite allegations of abuse coming to light. No, one should
feel absolutely confident that nothing bad could possibly come from listening t
o people who conduct themselves this way, and it's not as if the Bible has anyth
ing to say regarding the character requirements and the public reputations of th
ose who would lead and teach. Since none of us are perfect, it's not necessary t
o exercise any critical judgment concerning the actions of those who wish ferven
tly for us to pay heed to their words and follow their teachings (not to mention
spend our money). Because that's what Jesus was all about.
2
Karen Ragnarok - 3 days ago
Actually, I was advocating critical thinking...not blind following. And somethin
g called discernment...which we are all free to use, even if it means we disagre
e with each other. You, and a lot of others are apparently angry and disappointe
d that someone you felt should be setting a better example, didn't. Learning to
discern the difference between the wisdom of our teachers, and their faults, is
an important skill. That was my point. If that's too hard, best of luck to you i
n finding someone of this world who is perfect so you can blindly and unconditio
nally follow...
Ragnarok Karen - 2 days ago
I am quite angry and disappointed, but not for the reasons you insist on applyin
g. I'm angry and disappointed because a man who claims to follow Jesus (which, f
or the record, I do not claim) works tirelessly to wreak vengeance upon the moth
er of his children, and still other people who claim to follow Jesus either stan
d by and say nothing or actively defend and support the person relentlessly atta
cking the mother of his children. You, while claiming to advocate critical think
ing, simply belched a block of text which purports to encourage others to think
for themselves yet actually encourages others to move along and stop worrying ab
out what terrible wrongs may have been done in the name of a person you hold to
be the "one perfect teacher in all of history". In effect, what you've written i
s little more than a free pass for hypocrisy. This is not about a book. The post
at the top of this page is, but the subsequent discussion most certainly is not
. If you don't understand what's happening, it's best to wait to comment until y
ou do. Or, at the very least, to ask questions so that you might understand bett
er rather than condescending to people with this codswallop.
2
Karen Ragnarok - 2 days ago
According to you: you are angry because people aren't acting the way you feel th
ey should. That IS exactly my point, and many of the early comments WERE about t
he book, which is what I was also responding to. Subsequent posts have taken a d
ifferent turn; I am not part of that discussion. I am not encouraging others to
ignore anything, I am encouraging people to take responsibility for their own ed
ucation and not expect "teachers" to be infallible, and throw a fit just because
Nadia endorses a book by someone you all hate. You don't have to like him; you
don't have to read his book; you don't have to agree with Nadia's choice to endo
rse it; you don't have to approve of her; you don't have to like her. Good for y
ou.
jenswisher - 6 days ago
I need to say something. There have been many people...some influential, some "o
rdinary"...who have spoken up in defense of Tony Jones. And many of them were de
meaned and dismissed no matter what they did. If they were silent, they were cri
ticized for not speaking. When they voiced different conclusions than those atta
cking Jones, they were then criticized for coming to different conclusions. The
thing that makes me lose sleep at night though is that these people are not the
only ones who feel this way. I need you to know for the sake of my conscience: T
here are many others like me who are totally normal not famous people who disagr
ee with the story being spun about Jones. (No one thinks he's an angel, mind you
.) I need you to know that among those who have been witnessing this family's dr
ama for YEARS, including those of us who don't even like Tony, that it is common
knowledge that there are serious problems with how this supposed abuse story ca
me to evolve and be shared the way it did. It's literally the secret the whole t
own is in on but it's like no one has told the internet. But I am scared. I am n
ot comfortable going
online and arguing with complete strangers who harass others. Who wants to do th
at? But I am asking you now to please do your own research. Don't just read some
cut and pasted paragraphs put together by people who hate Tony or people who di
slike Julie, but if you really have a stake in this, check it ALL out. If you're
an organization that has some authority or affiliation here, request all the do
cuments from both parties. Pay attention to the sources that keep popping up. Yo
u've probably already noticed it's the same group of people who are going on Twi
tter, on Facebook, on blogs or wherever and continuing to make accusations. Lite
rally, someone could make a list of the names of the most vocal attackers and th
ey could be interviewed. Click on their names, read their bios, look them up on
the internet, notice what ties they may have had to Tony in the past. What do th
ey do now? Do they make money off of religion or off critiquing it? Do they gain
any sort of fame or popularity or personal validation off religious figures or
critiquing them? Ask each of them: How did you meet Julie McMahon? How much time
have you spent with her in real life? Did you know Tony and Julie before they w
ere divorced? How much time did you spend with the family then? Look into the po
eple supporting Tony and ask the same questions. Why would people, sometimes com
plete strangers in different states or countries, take up the cause of bringing
down a public figure about Tony? What about their experiences have led them to b
e consumed by a goal like this? What personal experience do they have with this
family? What professional credibility do they bring to the table and so on? Ask
the same questions of Tony's supporters. Read how this devoted band of critics i
s communicating. Is it kind? Does it respect basic human decency? Do they come o
ff as people moved by justice and a desire for humane treatment? Ask this of Ton
y's supporters as well. What group of people is more qualified to judge this tha
n officials and judges and the family's local communiy? If someone were to be mo
re qualified, what would that person or group look like? I am scared to death to
post this, but I am more scared of being the kind of human being who doesn't st
and up for what they know is right.
10
Kandace jenswisher - 3 days ago
Jen, please email me. I know you've mentioned you are scared (so am I), but ther
e's nothing wrong with sharing your experience even if it contradicts other peop
le's experiences.
Gretchen jenswisher - 6 days ago
Regarding examination of sources close to the story, what do you make of the psy
chological evaluations performed? The psychologist's job was to evaluate and mak
e recommendations regarding custody. Her loyalty/obligation was to the needs of
the kids. The reports make a COMPELLING case that TJs pathology was toxic to the
family and his marriage. Do you think the psychologist had a stake in this some
how? Because I care little about who said what in some gossip mill... In my opin
ion the psych reports are all one needs to read to form a reasonable opinion...
4
BethAgain Gretchen - 6 days ago
But that psych report (which never should have been released - ugh) is just one
piece of what is almost certainly a complicated situation. It is one professiona
l's opinion. They have seen other professionals. Do they agree? We don't know. A
re there other diagnoses given? We don't know. If so, which are the most accurat
e? We don't know. Often what looks like typical abuse cover-up is. But sometimes
these situations are so messy and complicated that what initially seems true is
not. Those of us out in Internet world cannot fairly evaluate this stuff. Of co
urse, those trying to cover up abuse count on that though - that people will jus
t take the easy way out and throw up their hands and say it's all too complicate
d and not anyone's business. This particular case though. . . I have had the sin
king feeling from the get go that nothing but damage has been done by the effort
s to make it public.
1
wordvixen BethAgain - 4 days ago
Beth- Tony actually went on record on his own blog stating that he's a diagnosed
narcissist. If *he* is willing to accept it as a legitimate diagnosis, then why
argue over who did the diagnosing?
2
B_Class Gretchen - 6 days ago
Gretchen, from what I understand, the excerpts from the psych eval were primaril
y taken from the portion in which the therapist captures the patients' tellings
of their stories. The therapist wasn't actually present as an eyewitness to the
events spoken about. Not sure whether you saw another commenter on a different w
ebsite bring this up, but apparently the therapist whose paperwork is quoted her
e was selected by Julie's law firm and represents her findings over just a few d
ays during this period of marital duress. For whatever reason, R.L. chose to cit
e ONLY the therapist chosen by Julie's firm, not the work of other therapists wh
o have testified in cases between these two parties. This was also not the thera
pist who has treated Tony for six years. If you know anyone connected to this ca
se and can gain access to these other records, it might help you understand why
this is in question.
1
Ragnarok B_Class - 3 days ago
The psychologist who performed the court-ordered evaluations of both Jones and M
cMahon was chosen by the court, not by either side's representatives. The evalua
tions were accepted by the court as findings of fact by an expert witness, not m
ere opinion. As such, both sides in the case were required to stipulate to the f
acts in those evaluations. If Jones had a leg to stand on in denying the psychol
ogist's factual basis for her conclusions then his attorney would have objected
to the findings as biased at the time they were submitted to the court. Since th
ose evaluations are part of the record, that means that either Jones's attorney
did not object or that any objections were heard and overruled. Everyone is free
to deny these findings, of course, but to do so begs the question of why one sh
ould believe the skeptics instead of the court. So far, after many challenges in
a number of places, I have yet to find anyone willing to step up and answer tha
t question. I would be interested to learn whether you have an answer, B_Class.
Do you?
2
Guest B_Class - 6 days ago
Point taken. Though I don't think we know that the psychologist evaluator was an
yone's therapist at the time of the evaluation. That would be an inherent confli
ct of interest if that's the way it went down. Typically, if not always, the cou
rt evaluator is a neutral party. I have no doubt that Tony and Julie have or had
their own therapists--but I didn't think either were the psychologist who did t
he assessment. If that's the case, it would be highly unusual and worthy of scru
tiny.
2
Gretchen Gretchen - 6 days ago
Also, I think it's important to remember that people don't have to be perfect in
order to be victimized. That is, just because someone has faults or perhaps ann
oying characteristics doesn't mean they weren't abused or mistreated. I apprecia
te your perspective as it sounds like you have a lot of inside information most
of us are unable to access. Thank you for sharing this far.
4
KT Pridgen Gretchen - 5 days ago
Yes, THIS. I do not know Julie personally. While I know she is not perfect (bein
g a human being and all), I do not have personal knowledge as to her strengths,
weaknesses, and mistakes and how extreme they are. What I do know is that despit
e any of that, the court documents clearly lay out that professionals had determ
ined a man was having an affair and telling his wife her suspicions were because
of a personality order that she did not have. That's the very definition of gas
lighting which is emotional abuse. That's all I need to know. Christian leaders
need to be called out for abuse. (As a side note, being imperfect does not mean
abusing that person is justified. Actually, it took me a long time to learn that
lesson and forgive myself for my own imperfections, so it's a topic close to my
heart.) BTW, Jen, I do appreciate your take on things!
5
JRGRE jenswisher - 6 days ago
As someone else who lives in this community (and I think knows who you are if th
is is your maiden name?), I want to thank you for speaking up (it does take cour
age) and caution you about saying any more about Julie (or any of them) for your
sake and for the sake of those involved. I raised some similar questions on Sto
llar or TWW (I can't remember? Maybe both?) because I get tired of people speaki
ng about this situation as if it's all a bunch of celebrities. These are real pe
ople. With real children. This discussion of their lives has cost all of them BO
TH PARTIES a great deal. Those of us who know them in real life and who are work
ing, as friends, to move past some of the false notions toward group healing get
frustrated by these online outbursts from strangers that often set back real li
fe progress. I know there is more you could say about Julie's patterns with othe
rs to attempt to show people why questioning is important in this case, but I im
plore you not to get sucked into the weird addiction to get people to "REALLY un
derstand" and to make them "get it." This only adds to the vulnerably, messy inf
ormation they have about this couple which this group will continue to dissect i
n their tabloidish-blogs at this family's expense. The courts and agencies are t
he only ones who need to understand Julie's history. For the sake of her childre
n, please don't take the bait to keep giving them more concrete information.
6
jenswisher JRGRE - 6 days ago
Oh my gosh. I feel sick now. First, please don't give people my current last nam
e. I don't want these people to turn on me. I was trying to help and you're righ
t I probably shouldn't stay in this conversation. I'm not that familiar with how
online stuff works and I barely ever do this sort of thing. I just felt guilty
that everyone kind of knows about the misunderstandings that are out there and a
lot of locals just talk about it but don't want to get our hands dirty. I guess
ultimately that is true of me too because I don't want this to come back on my
family in any way. I am so sorry if I said anything that sets back the work of p
eople like you who are friends trying to help this family. I should have clarifi
ed that I am NOT friends with them, although I know of and have met them and hav
e known others in their extended families for a long time. I have nothing to do
with their church community or anything although I am a Christian and do follow
along with that scene and they are sort of well known in the circles of church p
eople out this way as you probably know. I just meant to say that the financial
piece (while she may not be independently financially stable, which is regrettab
le) has been portrayed very differently than her actual experience. (I don't thi
nk people commenting were picturing a full time summer nanny watching their kids
in a 4-bedroom house in a $350k+ neighborhood...) Obviously you probably know s
ome of the other credibility patterns I was referring to better than I do if you
are closer to the situation. It just seems like the whole thing is based on suc
h faulty information, it scares me what the internet is capable of doing to peop
le as they fight for their lives.
3
JRGRE jenswisher - 6 days ago
Look, I think it was fine that you suggested people look into the sources who ke
ep posting about this on the internet. I do think that A LOT would become obviou
s if people did just ask the questions you suggested about whether these people
really are well positioned to judge better than those in the local community or
whether they have other predispositions or other motives/background which lead t
hem to be overeager advocates or to overstate their real expertise. But I do NOT
think you should have given them that information about her family's wealth or
her privileged status here and I do NOT think you should give them any more exam
ples of concrete information about her no matter how much they ask. It won't acc
omplish anything except for make you feel like you showed them up and proved you
r point (at their family's continued expense). The reality is, the people who ar
e tweeting about this or posting about it over and over, they get to go on with
their lives. Those kids have to live with everything that is posted and how it t
rickles out to people like us and parents of their friends everyday. That has to
matter more in the end than whether this handful of internet people get the ful
l picture or judge it the way we think does the family justice. I think it is cl
ear that on every front, but especially on the internet, what has been done to t
his family is incredibly unjust. Adding more wrongs to the online pile will not
right the wrongs already there.
5
SHPryor1 JRGRE - 5 days ago
This seems like silencing the other way to me. If she has stories to share about
Julie, this isn't about a divorce, it's about determining whether the very seri
ous allegations being raised about abuse and religious coverup are true. If some
thing in Julie's past is relevant to these accusations, no one here should disco
urage the sharing. She does not have to be a "perfect victim" as others have sta
ted. We can honor that but still take seriously our responsibility to understand
if there are strong reasons to believe the allegations are not trustworthy.
BethAgain SHPryor1 - 5 days ago
But it doesn't have to be done in social media. Julie has publicly made abuse al
legations against Tony and spiritual abuse allegations against a group of emerge
nt leaders. These need to be investigated - the question is what is the best way
to go about that? The kids have seen their father talked about very poorly onli
ne, often by people who don't even know him. I can't see how it would benefit an
yone, especially them, to see it happen to their mother too. Whether appropriate
ly or not, Julie is considered an abuse victim by many in the Christian abuse su
pport community (as far as I can tell anyway). It would be nothing but ugly to s
tart specificly talking about why her allegations should be questioned. Surely t
here is a way for someone or a group of someones to investigate privately and th
en release their findings publicly with some careful details. I know there was a
n investigative journalist who came onto TWW and said she had been planning to d
o a story but found it too complicated to tease out a clear storyline. There has
to be a way. Calling for sources online would be great. Discussing details and
stories about Julie before the investigation was complete does not seem good to
me.
JRGRE JRGRE - 6 days ago
Oh also, I meant to tell you that they already posted your comment on Stuff Chri
stian Culture Likes. I looked for you on Facebook based on what I think your cur
rent last name is, but couldn't find you. I will try to find a way to contact yo
u in case you want to talk about this offline. If you have figured out who I am
though feel free to make contact as well only if you want to. I don't mean to so
und harsh about this, I am jsut really tired of this family being discussed onli
ne as if their hardship and ugliness is fodder for entertainment.
3
jenswisher JRGRE - 6 days ago
okay yes. I get it. Again I am sorry. And yes, it's fine to reach out to me priv
ately. I have no idea who you are but I will ask my husband if he knows you when
he gets home.
1
BethAgain jenswisher - 6 days ago
I am not involved with this in any way other than reading what is out there. I h
ear what you are saying though and share some of your concerns. I think there is
a good chance that the situation is more complicated than is being presented. I
understand abuse dynamics and personality disorders pretty well, and I still ha
ve glaring questions about this story. I believe though that once abuse allegati
ons have been made, social media is not the place to evaluate them. Those who ha
ve been accused by Julie cannot appropriately defend themselves online, partly b
ecause it would just turn into a nasty trashfest with people distorting things a
nd interpreting them in the worst light. Also, I think those involved know enoug
h about these issues to understand defending themselves is a very tricky thing,
given the power differentials and the nature of the allegations. I understand th
ose who accept, based on the info they have now, that Julie is a victim and Tony
is an abuser. This has all played out similarly to how many stories of abuse ha
ppen. I see those who are advocating for her to be acting out of sincere motives
. Goodness knows the problem of ignoring and mishandling abuse claims in favor o
f the abuser is usually MUCH worse than the other way around. However, again I s
ee some serious red flags that do not necessarily fit and personally give me pau
se. I wish so much that others would recognize that this needs to be evaluated p
rivately. Keep the pressure on to have the claims evaluated, but I think it is q
uite possible that deciding Tony deserves the labels he has been given is premat
ure. Anyone who makes the claims Julie has deserves to have those claims taken s
eriously. I am guessing that those involved initially severely underestimated th
e way allegations can take on a life of their own. I think many directly involve
d do not see Julie as a trustworthy source, and they may be correct enough for t
his to have been a huge disaster. I honestly don't know and wouldn't be surprise
d either way. I fault them though, for thinking they could evaluate it themselve
s, say it wasn't true, and then just try and suppress her allegations online. An
yone with knowledge of how misuse of power happens is going to roll their eyes.
These allegations are serious and they aren't going away. I hope they can be eva
luated by someone both sides trust enough to share their documentation. Having f
ollowed all of this though, my hopes are dwindling that this could happen. I thi
nk there are a myriad of issues that make it less likely.
1
Adrenalin Tim BethAgain - 6 days ago

I believe though that once abuse allegations have been made, social media is not
the place to evaluate them. (...) Keep the pressure on to have the claims evalu
ated, but I think it is quite possible that deciding Tony deserves the labels he
has been given is premature. That's fair enough. But until they have been evalu
ated, it is supremely irresponsible to pretend nothing has happened, to try to c
over up the allegations, to host conferences and endorse books and in every othe
r way try to keep the machinery of power running. Especially given the NPD diagn
osis. These allegations are serious and they aren't going away. I hope they can
be evaluated by someone both sides trust enough to share their documentation.
Me too. From what I have seen, Julie has made many efforts to make something lik
e this happen, and Tony has made every effort to shut it all down, in favor of s
ilencing and threatening and innuendo behind the scenes.
2
Adrenalin Tim jenswisher - 6 days ago
Hi jenswisher, thanks for your comment. I hope that your fears of being harassed
turn out to be ill-founded, and I hope that you feel your voice and perspective
are heard. I am not personally involved with any of the parties. I've seen a co
uple of the speakers, and been reading books and blogs since the mid 00's, but t
hat's it. I'd like to think I'm an independent (which is of course not to say im
partial or objective) observer, a seeker after the truth. So, that in mind, I'd
like to ask you to clarify your comments. I'd like to take you seriously, and I
believe you're posting in good faith, but my initial impressions of what you wro
te are that it comes across--well, as trying to redirect criticism of Tony Jones
onto his accusers, using pretty much the exact accusations as those raised agai
nst Tony and his supporters. Are you really saying that an honest look would rev
eal that Julie McMahon--who cannot even afford her own legal fees to enforce cou
rt-ordered custody of her child--is the party with all the money and power? That
a "follow the money" approach would conclude that those with the book contracts
, mutual endorsements, and joint speaking gigs with one of the parties have no p
otential conflicts of interest? That the real victims of being dismissed and sil
enced are not the ones calling for openness and accountability, but the ones who
have put out information and removed it, who have deleted and censored opposing
voices, who have made legal threats & requests to third-party blogs to delete u
nfavorable content and comments? That the man who self-admittedly has been diagn
osed with pathological manipulativeness, compulsive lying, and inflated self-imp
ortance is the real party being wronged here? That the multiple, disparate, firs
thand accounts of the smear campaign to label Julie as "bat-shit crazy" are all
fabricated? That David Hayward is making a load of money off of the platform he
provided Julie? That Brother Maynard, Bill Kinnon, Stephanie Drury, Dee Parsons,
Matthew Paul Turner, RL Stollar, and others are in it for fame & popularity & s
elf-aggrandizement? Please, be concrete. Otherwise I can't make heads or tails o
f what you're saying. You caution people to research "both sides", and I'm willi
ng to do that. But Tony has evidently retracted every statement he's made about
the controversy, including those claiming that he was just about to release some
primary evidence to support his "documented facts". Tony's supporters have all
gone silent since RL Stollar posted primary documentation. So tell me--where sho
uld I go for "the other side's" perspective? To be honest, all you've offered he
re is innuendo, nothing approaching evidence. Tell me, jenswisher, where should
I go to learn the secret that "literally the whole town is in on"? Why don't you
tell it here?
3
jenswisher Adrenalin Tim - 6 days ago
Hi Tim, thanks for responding respectfully. I feel somewhat uncomfortable with o
nline communication. The online world just isn't my thing. I feel torn. This cam
e up the other day among a group of parents. We all feel torn. It doesn't feel l
ike the right hting to discuss this (someone else's stuff) on the Internet. None
of us would want our families discussed this way. At the same time, we can bare
ly believe that a group of people keep posting some of the things they do. Witho
ut being too down about it since I'm sure some of them are nice people just tryi
ng to do the right thing, it is super obvious they aren't from around here or ha
ven't known this family for long. I don't feel comfortable saying anything demea
ning about the Mcmahon or Jones family. I wouldn't want someone discussing my pe
rsonal life or track record on the internet, no matter what I did. I think one w
ay to help the public understand just ONE PLACE where this story rings untrue ba
sed on what is common knowledge is to look at the way Julie is being portrayed a
s a struggling, single mother. (This information may not have come from Julie, p
erhaps it is just the assumptions that people have made about her.) But in our c
ommunity, everyone knows Julie as a member of the Thelen family, a BIG Texas oil
family (you can google this, I'm sure, but they made HUGE money). Or do people
realize that Julie's sister is married to Mike McFadden? CEO of a high brow priv
ate equity firm? Yes, the Mike McFadden. The one who just made a run to be a U.S
. Senator. You can google that too and find out that Mike's net worth is thought
to be as high as 60 million or something like that. (This came out in his campa
ign...) Anyways, the Julie McMahon everyone knows around here is this woman who
owns her own house in a classy high-priced suburb, who owns an SUV, who belongs
to a very elite high priced gym, who ALWAYS has new clothes, and on and on and o
n. I'ts become a running inside joke that Julie McMahon is "penniless". For God'
s sake, her summer nanny (or "au pair" or whatever they call it) shows up to dro
p her kids off at the pool or whatever. We all roll our eyes about penniless Jul
ie who bragged about going on some retreat in Mexico last month and has apparent
ly booked an expensive vacation to take her kids to Mexico on vacation soon. I d
on't want to be mean, but really. Someone actually suggested maybe the online st
uff was about a DIFFERENT Julie McMahon because single moms dream of the kind of
"penniless" life Julie McMahon lives. As I say, I don't feel comfortable talkin
g about other run-ins or red flags peopl ehave had related to Julie, but I think
you could find this out pretty easily by asking around if you do live anywhere
nearby. Just feel badly about this bizarre thing that is happening online and wo
nder what's going on to make people rush around theinternet making accusations.
It's not my place to spell out suburban Edina life for internet strangers, but p
lease I just encourage everyone to ask more questions and maybe speak as if you
have the awareness that what you're passing around is just ONE opinion or versio
n of a much bigger story.
1
Guest jenswisher - 3 days ago
Hi Jen. Not sure how my sisters husband makes me suddenly not living below the l
ine of poverty. An au pair cost $175 a week. I worked for the company and was ab
le to get a deal. Am I really defending this? I'll go on. I live below the line
of poverty and my kids qualify for government lunches. The pool you speak of? Yo
u mean the public pool? Oh, okay. Hardly an "exclusive" club. Expensive gym memb
ership? My yoga membership? I pay $104 a month because I joined in 2006. That is
my metal health and with a narcissist ex....I need it. Expenisve SUV? My mazda?
I pay $230 a month for a reliable vehicle. Expensive Mexico vacation? My best f
riends time share that she generously gave me a week. We flew Sun Country $250 f
light using one way flights each flight. I'll answer each and every question. Al
though it disgusts me but does not surprise me my vindictive and mentally ill ex
husband would like to control a counter narrative. Edina life? I can't move. I
would in a heartbeat. Because of my ex husband I literally have to stay in Edina
until the kids graduate. Big Texas oil money? I wish I had that. Sounds wonderf
ul. My great grandfather was a wealthy man. Again, not sure how relatives wealth
translates into my being on government health care because I qualify. I don't k
now you. However, you seem to think you know me. May you never know that stress
of not knowing if you'll have enough money for groceries to feed you kids. While
your ex retains a $450 an hour lawyer for 7 years driving you into unfathomable
poverty because you have to respond to over 18 legal motions. I am in graduate
school and hope to pull us out of poverty as soon as I am able. It will be anoth
er year at least. Thank you for your inaccurate judgement of me and my situation
. I am not surprised that his people would work so hard to create a counter narr
ative. Take care, Julie
3

Hi jenswisher, thanks for the follow-up. That is something concrete. So Julie ha
s relatives that have money. Honestly, I don't see how that changes anything. I
don't see how one could infer from where she lives, what she wears, or what she
drives anything about the state of her personal finances or her ability to affor
d legal representation. More importantly, the presence or absence of money in he
r family has no bearing on allegations of abuse, the multiple accounts of silenc
ing, lying, and gaslighting, and the giant elephant in the room, the diagnosis o
f Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Some people may want to divide the world in
to 100% Good Guys and 100% Bad Guys, "perfect victims" and "perfect oppressors".
That's not what I want, and every indication I've seen is that that's not what
Julie wants. She just wants to be heard, and I think she deserves to be taken se
riously. jenswisher, I'd like to ask if you have taken your own advice: have you
taken an honest look at "both sides"? Have you read the allegations in the nake
dpastor thread, and the corroborations of Julie's accounts by people like Andrew
Jones, Brother Maynard, and Bill Kinnon? Have you read the documents posted by
RL Stollar? Have you read the timelines pieced together by Brad Sargent?
1
jenswisher Adrenalin Tim - 6 days ago
Yes, I have literally read every word of the posts on those sites you mentioned.
..as well as several others...and all the posts/comments on SCCL as well. This i
s what led me to leave a comment yesterday because I couldn't believe that this
many months later, people were still passing on this version of information. I a
gree with you that if abuse occurs, it would not matter how much money is involv
ed in various families. I only chose this piece of concrete info because it was
the only one that allowed me to refer to already public facts (her family's weal
th and her assets which color the story different than the Penniless Julie versi
on) without saying anything TOO disparaging or personal about her track record i
n our community. The financials are just the beginning of a trail of actions tha
t raise serious concerns. I don't care if anyone here likes Tony or ever does. B
ut I do care if people have been duped into making a mockery of a family and the
ir children based on really slanted, partial information. I hope those who choos
e to continue to post about this haven't just texted Julie (on her vacation, as
she solicits your donation) or taken the pieces of docs she has sent, but have a
ctually asked the hard questions of everyone involved. If you did this, I don't
think you'd emerge a Tony fan (nor have I). But I also don't think you could in
good conscience think that it makes sense to be a vigilante for this version of
the story.
2
I'm not after any "version of the story". My position is, and has been, that unt
il the full story is out, the allegations are serious enough that Tony should no
t be given a platform. I find it irresponsible for him to be f\352ted as a speak
er and author and a serious & respected voice within progressive Christianity. E
specially when such honors being given to him are feeding into and enabling his
disorder.
6
Naismith jenswisher - 6 days ago
I do happen to know both Julie and Tony and have known them for years.I
knew them when they were married. I live in southwest Minneapolis right across F
rance Avenue from Edina.Jen, I want you to know that in spite of the innuendo yo
u seem hesitant, but ultimately eager, to pass along, Julie has no money. In fac
t, she is deeply in debt as a result of the legal fees arising from motion, afte
r motion, after motion filed by her ex-husband to either reduce child support or
flip custody (which is often nothing more than another cynical way to get out o
f paying child support). Look it up in the court records. Tony has filed over 3
dozen motions over the past several years. If it seems insane it's because it is
. This is what Narcissists do, They manipulate the court system in an attempt to
destroy the person they have targeted and that person is usually the one who po
ses the biggest threat to the carefully constructed false narrative they like to
perpetuate about themselves.Our messed up court system provides them with a han
dy way to continue to abuse. It is shameful.
I don't want to seem disrespectful, but you seem interested in other people's mo
ney. Please extend that same level of interest to Tony, as well. How is he payin
g his lawyers? How does he manage to travel the world, take weekend trips to New
York and LA, sip the expensive Scotch and smoke the Cuban cigars he likes to tw
eet about all the while claiming he is too poor to support his children at the l
evel the court has ordered? How much money does Tony's parents have? Does he hav
e other wealthy relatives? And when you are done asking those questions, please
consider the following:Julie works multiple jobs (one of which is as an office h
elper at a hockey rink) to try to make ends meet and to try to provide for her f
amily. She lives where she lives because of the school system and the quality of
education it affords her children. She does not own the home she lives in and t
he car she drives was given to her. She is a proud person who was only willing t
o accept these gifts because she was left with no other choice. She has been kno
w to give free room a board to young women in exchange for a little help with he
r three kids (that includes driving her kids to places they need to be). The tru
th is that if it were left up to her ex-husband, his children and their mother w
ould most likely be homeless. Next time you get together with your friends in Ed
ina, please be sure to pass along these tidbits of information. Maybe then you a
nd your friends would not be so quick to feel sorry for poor Tony.
5
wanderer jenswisher - 6 days ago
"I'm not comfortable discussing other people's private lives online, and I don't
want to be mean, but.......(several paragraphs of personal information about Ju
lie that sounds envious and mean)"
Did I get that about right?
What do her family's finances have to do with abuse, control and manipulation sh
e reports to have lived through?
6
CanIbeFrank wanderer - 6 days ago
Well, SCCL just posted on their FB page that Julie "doesn't have money to pay fo
r an attorney" so that does seem interesting that either her family isn't willin
g to help her out financially when apparently they are quite wealthy or that she
's not willing to take money from them. That doesn't directly have anything to d
o with whether or not she was abused, but it does make me wonder why SCCL contin
ues to make it seem like she is indeed penniless and can't afford an attorney wh
en that might not be the case (though it does speak to a certain narrative that
they are promoting). These are her kids and custody is on the line, right? I can
only speak for myself but all my pride or whatever would go out the window if i
t came down to needing money to keep my kids. I would do anything--even take $$
from my jerk of a brother if I could. I state this only because in my experience
acrimonious divorces rarely are a matter of one person 100% being the victim an
d the other person 100% being the abuser. There's probably a whole lot more to t
he story than what's being revealed so far and I think that's what "jenswisher"
is saying. But to even whisper to such a thing is risking getting the wrath of t
he SCCL poured upon us. I too have hesitated to comment at all since I too would
rather not be piled on, even if it is anonymously.
2
wanderer CanIbeFrank - 5 days ago
So..... you miss the point of why SCCL is talking about this, and you're jealous
of Julie's family's money. Got it.
4
Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid jenswisher - 6 days ago
Now this is the stuff that needs to be known. Doesn't change anything is she is
a victim of abuse, and I'm hoping this isn't small town gossip.... but I do than
k you for sharing.
Also, wealthy relatives don't mean that it's healthy for a woman to have to depe
nd on them. And if an abuser make me dependent on my family, (who would take car
e of me) I would still be a victim and the abuser would still be wrong. I think
the point is that monsters live in the dark...... and while nobody cares about t
he divorce or the personal aspects of these folks lives, shining a light on abus
ive behavior is the only way to make abuse go away for good. As long as abusers
can keep the abusees quiet, the cycle will continue. THAT is what I'm against. N
ot Tony, not Julie, Not Nadia, or Rachael or Bryan or any of them..... but I AM
and always will be against perpetuating the cycle of abuse.
4
CurtisMSP - 6 days ago
When does your endorsement deal with Tony expire, so we can stop hearing about h
im?
6
Tim Wilson-Brown CurtisMSP - 2 days ago
I doubt Nadia can disclose that, Curtis.
It's like a warrant canary. When it disappears, you know the deal is up.
M Didaskalos - 6 days ago
[from the Amazon.com description of Tony Jones' book] "Many Christians believe t
hat God the Father demanded his only Son die a cruel, gruesome death to appease
His wrath, since humanity is so irredeemably sinful and therefore repugnant to G
od. Tony Jones, popular progressive Christian blogger, author, and scholar, argu
es that this understanding is actually a medieval invention and not what the Bib
le really teaches. He looks beyond medieval convictions and liberates how we see
Jesus's death on the cross from this restrictive paradigm. Christians today mus
t transcend the shame and guilt that have shaped conceptions of the human soul a
nd made us fearful of God, and replace them with love, grace, and joyfulness, wh
ich better expresses what the cross is really about." Sounds reminiscent of a Na
dia sermon on Christ the King Sunday: ". . .And just to be clear: The cross is n
ot about God as divine child abuser sadly sending his little boy off to be kille
d because we were bad and well, somebody had to pay. . . .On the cross we don't
see a legal transaction where Jesus pays our debt." [ http://www.goodreads.com/a
utho... ] Talk about demolishing a straw man. So much of "progressive Christiani
ty" these days seems to be straight out of the Barbra Streisand School of Theolo
gy: "Feelings. Nothing more than feelings." The Bible plainly teaches that we ar
e inexhaustibly, unutterably, unfathomably, forever loved by God. *We* aren't re
pugnant to God. It's our sins that are repugnant to a holy and righteous God. An
d yes, we are irredeemably sinful. Big sins, little sins: it really doesn't matt
er. We, like David [Psalm 51] and the entirety of humankind, were conceived and
born in sin, and we do a lot of sinning once we're born. If we don't repent of o
ur sins and receive a Savior who takes our sins and gives us His righteousness,
we don't go to heaven. And that legal transaction is God's love story: Jesus bec
oming incarnate of the Virgin Mary, living a sinless life, and going willingly [
http://biblehub.com/john/10-18... ] to the cross. Even joyfully to the cross: "
. . .for the joy that was set before him [Jesus] endured the cross, despising th
e shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." What joy is that
? The "joy of bringing many sons and daughters to glory." Jesus didn't die becau
se He ticked off the Romans; He wasn't the Great Social Activist. Jesus didn't d
ie to show us how to face death bravely; He wasn't the Great Example. He was, an
d is, and will always be the Savior from sin to those who - as He declared from
the outset of His ministry - "repent, and believe in the Gospel." The writers of
the "God-breathed" [ http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/... ] New Testament epistles
echoed these requirements for entrance into the kingdom in many places, among t
hem here: ** "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we mi
ght become the righteousness of God." (NIV) 2 Cor. 5:21 ** "and He [Jesus] Himse
lf bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live
to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." (NASB) 1Peter 2:24 "Repent
," Jesus? "Die to sin," Peter? You mean I have to repent of and turn away from,
like, all sin? Even my favorite sins? Even the sins reclassified by "progressive
" denominations' commissions and convention votes? Don't you realize how harsh t
hose imperatives are to postmodern ears that crave constant tickling from "progr
essive" churches? Brother Martin Luther faithfully picked up on the Bible's them
es of repentance (even from our favorite sins; see below) and belief in Jesus as
the sole Savior of humankind as sine qua non Biblical mandates for all who desi
re to spend eternity with Jesus: ". . .I have often said that there are two kind
s of faith. First, a faith in which you indeed believe that Christ is such a man
as he is described and proclaimed here and in all the Gospels, but do not belie
ve that he is such a man for you, and are in doubt whether you have any part in
him and think: 'Yes, he is such a man to others, to Peter, Paul, and the blessed
saints; but who knows that he is such to me and that I may expect the same from
him and may confide in it, as these saints did.'
"Behold, this faith is nothing, it does not receive Christ nor enjoy him, neithe
r can it feel any and love and affection for him or from him. It is a faith abou
t Christ and not in or of Christ, a faith which the devils also have as well as
evil men. . .
"That alone can be called Christian faith, which believes without wavering that
Christ is the Savior not only to Peter and to the saints but also to you. Your s
alvation does not depend on the fact that you believe Christ to be the Savior of
the godly, but that he is a Savior to you and has become your own." ["First Sun
day in Advent" -- Sermons of Martin Luther, volume 1: Sermons on Gospel Texts fo
r Advent, Christmas, and Epiphany, Baker Books, page 21 - http://www.orlutheran.
com/html... - pts. 8-11] Even on Easter Sunday (or, undoubtedly, *especially* on
Easter Sunday), Luther thought it critical that his hearers not fail to grasp t
he link between Law and Gospel, of repentance's inextricable link to saving fait
h: ". . .Nor may we in our works and in our daily life tolerate the yielding to
the wantonness of the flesh and at the same boast the Gospel of Christ, as did t
he Corinthians, who stirred up among themselves divisions and disorder, even to
the extent of one marrying his stepmother. In such matters as these, Paul says,
a little leaven leavens and ruins the whole lump - the entire Christian life. Th
ese two things are not consistent with each other: to hold to the Christian fait
h and to live after the wantonness of the flesh, in sins and vices condemned by
the conscience. Paul elsewhere warns (I Cor 6, 9-10): "Be not deceived: neither
fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of thems
elves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor exto
rtioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." Again (Gal 5, 19-21): "The works of
the flesh are manifest . . . of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn yo
u, that they who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." "Wa
rrant is given here likewise for censuring and restraining the rash individuals
who assert that men should not be terrified by the Law, nor surrendered to Satan
. No! it is our duty to teach men to purge out the old leaven; we must tell them
they are not Christians, but devoid of the faith, when they yield to the wanton
ness of the flesh and wilfully persevere in sin against the warning of conscienc
e. We should teach that such sins are so much the more vicious and damnable when
practiced under the name of the Gospel, under cover of Christian liberty; for t
hat is despising and blaspheming the name of Christ and the Gospel: and therefor
e such conduct must be positively renounced and purged out, as irreconcilable wi
th faith and a good conscience." [Martin Luther, "Easter Sunday Sermon": http://
www.lutherdansk.dk/Web-... -pts. 9-10 ] Repent of sin. Die to sin. Mighty radica
l and uncompromising Christianity, that. No wonder a bunch of mainline Protestan
t churches have turned "progressive." No wonder they've decided to go with a Bib
le-bowdlerizing, feelings-exalting, world-pleasing "gospel." No wonder they've b
een peddling cheap grace and universalism. Who'd want any part of a Biblical Chr
istianity that's been ruffling the world's feathers since A.D. 30? Other than Je
sus and His disciples in every age, that is.
1
Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid - 6 days ago
I am so disheartened by those who made a name for themselves advocating for the
abused. It seems that you can only oppose abusers that aren't close to you.
6
BethAgain - 7 days ago
I hope you, Nadia, and other leaders who are part of this situation call for an
independent investigation into these allegations by someone who is experienced i
n abuse and mental health issues. There is no overseeing authority in this case,
and the allegations are not going away. I have followed it closely and I unders
tand why you and others might not want to address it in social media. While the
courts can be helpful in some situations, I don't think this is one of them (or
maybe I should say only partly helpful). The allegations are important, but many
are outside the interests of the court. Besides, even verdicts in TJ's favor wi
ll not be trusted by those who have not found the court system helpful themselve
s. An independent investigation will allow all the voices to be heard, and ducum
entation that has no business being publicly released can be evaluated. I hope a
ll of you encourage this to happen. I know Brian McLaren tried to suggest this a
t first and I wish that had been the outcome, but it isn't too late. The current
stalemate with everyone involved just twisting in the wind is painful to watch.
2
Rob Brown - 7 days ago
While Tony may have major "defects of character," his writing is intriguing, if
not inspiring. (I would have to read more to speak about the "inspiring" bit.)
I am reminded, though that Saul, at first a persecutor of Christians, provided s
ome intriguing information about the Christian life.
All of this makes me very sad.
I guess I know too many "bad guys" who have provided the church with important s
piritual benefits.
Stephanie Drury Rob Brown - 7 days ago
Rob, no one is talking about "defects of character." We are talking about this:
https://rlstollar.wordpress.co...
7
jeffstraka Rob Brown - 7 days ago
You're comparing Jones to Saul/Paul? Really? And as for the "bad guys who have p
rovided the church with important spiritual benefits", I suppose it was that sam
e rationale that has prevented the Catholic Church from addressing THEIR "priest
ly problems".
1
Danica jeffstraka - 7 days ago
Many people say that they received 'important spiritual benefits' through the wo
rk of Mark Driscoll as well. There was actually a discussion on this over on SCC
L a few days ago, re: RHE. How do you reconcile her willful disregard of her cro
ny's victim with her work in advocating for women's voices in the church? It's a
sticky, messy, uncomfortable, disheartening, discouraging conundrum.
3
Danica Rob Brown - 7 days ago
A huge difference being that Saul had a turning point where he was faced with hi
s sins, repented, and then spent years in the wilderness deconstructing before c
oming out again to do the ministry of the cross. And even when he came out, he w
ent first through the apostles in Jerusalem, getting their blessing before proce
eding into his own ministry.
8
Adrenalin Tim Danica - 7 days ago
We want that restoration story so hard that we're willing to skip right over the
confession, repentance, restitution, reconciliation, and rehabilitation. Hence
we see Mark Driscoll already on his comeback tour, before the fallout is even co
mplete from the last megachurch he drove into the ground. I guess with ToJo, the
restoration is happening even before admitting that there was a fall at all. -_
5
jeffstraka - 7 days ago
Nadia - it's not your (or Tony's) theology that is the cause of "detractors" - y
ou both are twenty years behind the progressive edge. Your (and Tony's) detracto
rs are caused by your being arrogant, self-aggrandizing, self-centered jerk-wads
, not the least concerned about the marginalized and the oppressed for whom your
Jesus seemed to champion. Some might also use the word "hypocrite".
7
Barbara Dick - 7 days ago
"Spiritual wife". Sorry, still can't stop laughing.

9
Zomg Perry - 7 days ago
I get the feeling a lot of these comments aren't going to be around much longer
(unfortunately).
4
nakedpastor - 7 days ago
I'm very disappointed that in the face of some serious accusations about TJ's be
havior in the past, his book is still being promoted by his peers. I have experi
enced his silencing maneuvers first hand from him and his supporters! Peer revie
w means nothing anymore. We know this even from the scientific community (link b
elow). Instead of stopping to inquire we are rushing to silence. Here's the link
that should raise our suspicions about peer reviews: http://www.washingtonpost.
com/...
16
Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid - 7 days ago
Are you seriously okay with endorsing someone who is a confirmed narcissist?
10
Tim Wilson-Brown Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid - 7 days ago
Regardless of any diagnosis of mental illness, it is important that people are h
eld accountable for their actions. (This may include recommendations to get appr
opriate treatment.) In the case of Tony Jones, it is alleged that he physically
abused his ex-wife, Julie McMahon, had at least one affair while they were still
legally married, and when she found evidence of this, he engaged in private and
public gaslighting to mitigate the accusation. It is alleged that, as a result
of Tony's accusations towards Julie, several Emergent leaders at the time (it is
important to note that this group did not include Nadia Bolz-Weber or Rachel He
ld Evans), sought to have Julie committed to a mental institution under highly p
ressured circumstances. Tony Jones has continued to wage a legal battle against
Julie for the last 6 years, over issues as diverse as custody, alimony / child s
upport, and protection orders. This includes an alleged incident of entrapment w
here he held the children several days past his custody period, then called the
police to be ready at his place when Julie arrived to pick them up. (He used to
be the police chaplain.) The undeniable, publicly visible results of this confli
ct between Tony and Julie are several court cases, Julie being left as a single
mother barely above the poverty line, and Tony as a minor Christian celebrity wh
o always has money to travel and pay expensive lawyers. Make of that what you wi
ll. https://rlstollar.wordpress.co...
9
Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid Tim Wilson-Brown - 6 days ago
I'm with you, Tim.... sorry my remark didn't indicate that or seemed to target m
ental illness.
Eris, elder daughter of Nyx Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid - 7 days ago
I don't know anything about Tony Jones, but, as someone who was spent a good dea
l of time working with the mentally ill, I'm uncomfortable with your implication
that having a personality disorder (in this case, narcissism personality disord
er) makes one automatically unfit for having their book endorsed.
3
Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid Eris, elder daughter of Nyx - 6 days ago
I have a mental disorder. (I'm in remission) :) So my point wasn't the mental il
lness..... my point was the fact that this mental illness accounts for the other
things he has done that makes him unendorsable in my eyes. What he has done to
his now ex is abusive. What his buddies have done in helping him to cover it up
or pretend it didn't happen, is criminal.
2
Adrenalin Tim Eris, elder daughter of Nyx - 7 days ago
What Tim W-B said, plus... Someone with NPD is pathologically unable to empathiz
e, unable to see his own faults, egotistic and entitled. Concern and care for pe
ople with NPD does not include feeding their sense of self-importance and assist
ing them in silencing and cover-ups.
2
Tim Wilson-Brown Eris, elder daughter of Nyx - 7 days ago
There are a number of important distinctions that need to be made here - I'm goi
ng to post them in separate posts so that the context is clear, and because Disq
us works poorly on my computer: Having a personality disorder, or any other ment
al illness, shouldn't automatically disqualify anyone from public support or end
orsement. However, publicly support, admiration, power, and leadership responsib
ilities should be carefully handled with someone with Narcissistic Personality D
isorder (NPD). These sorts of actions can make a Narcissistic Personality Disord
er condition worse, and interfere with any treatment plan that may be in place.
However, it is up to Tony Jones to take responsibility for managing his own cond
ition, and to ask for what he needs. I can't really see how it's up to Nadia, ex
cept to perhaps be aware of her friends' and colleagues' conditions, and offer s
upport and ask questions privately. If Tony Jones doesn't want public endorsemen
ts, he shouldn't be blogging provocatively, writing books, speaking, running con
ferences, or running a social media and events company. However it happened, he
could have discouraged the mobilisation of Emergent figures with large public pl
atforms to support him and criticise his ex-wife. But it's hard, as many of thes
e activities are tied to his income streams.
3
Becky Rouzer Northcutt Eris, elder daughter of Nyx - 7 days ago
It doesn't disqualify him as an author but it does make him a hypocrite, since h
e falsely accused his wife of something that is only true about him.
4
GrumpySmurf Becky Rouzer Northcutt - 6 days ago
Hey, I'm an alcoholic. I openly admit it. Booze destroyed my life. But (and here
is where I am different from TJ) I got sober. I did the hard work, made the com
mittment, humbled myself, and got sober. Yes I still am affected by the fact I'm
a drunk, even after 31 years of sobriety. But I'm sober.
All these folks who say he has good things to say miss the point. You can't trus
t a narcissist. You shouldn't enable a narcissist. Until he gets his shit togeth
er, and confesses, and gets help, I'm not interested in anything he has to say.
Shame on you.
1
Danica Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid - 7 days ago
Self admitted narcissist, no less.
6
Rob Brown Danica - 7 days ago
Self-admitted narcissist? Strikes me as being an oxymoron, perhaps. If he is awa
re, he should be working on the problem.
Adrenalin Tim Rob Brown - 7 days ago
He admitted to the diagnosis, but in an offhanded, minimized, deceptive way. A p
art of the diagnosis is the denial that they have a problem.
5
Rob Brown Adrenalin Tim - 7 days ago
Thank you. So very sad!
1
Indeed. And compounding the sadness/horror/injustice of it all is the list of "p
rogressive Christian" luminaries endorsing Jones' work and turning a blind eye t
o his behavior.
2
How many of those "luminaries" are aware of the intimate details of Tony Jones l
ife. Or am I the only one who feels like he has been living under a rock in this
case?
We know for certain that Nadia Bolz-Weber, Rachel Held Evans, and Brian McLaren
are aware. RHE claimed to have done "diligent investigation" and "looked into th
is carefully" enough to know that the allegations were false. Later she admitted
that she had not spoken to Julie or seen the documentation. She has been (publi
cly) silent ever since the documentation was published, and has reportedly delet
ed comments about the situation on her Facebook and blog. NBW has been mostly si
lent, publicly, but surely knows the allegations-Jones withdrew from promoting a
conference put on by NBW and RHE a couple months ago, amid the outcry. BMcL has
been in close proximity to the situation from the beginning, with reactions ran
ging from ignoring Julie, to slandering and joining in on the active silencing,
to sort of maybe threatening to sue her, to saying he was interested in some sor
t of mediated conversation with her. If you're interested in more of the back st
ory, news of these allegations became public knowledge late last year through Da
vid Hayward's (nakedpastor) post Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, t
he thug or the theology? It was one of the first times that Julie was permitted
to tell her story. Over the course of 3 months and 1000+ comments, there was cla
rification, repentance, and forgiveness on display, as well as attempts to silen
ce, gaslight, manipulate, and censor. Some of the big names participated there.
I somewhat suspect that this and other comments about the situation will be dele
ted before long. So it goes. The public channels I have been following for updat
es on the scandal are the blogs at nakedpastor and the Wartburg Watch, and the F
acebook community Stuff Christian Culture Likes.
6
Thank you for the information, Tim. This is quite the learning experience for a
Canadian Elder. But I cannot say it is a happy experience.
1
I hear you, Rob, and feel the same-it's been incredibly disheartening to watch t
his play out-especially the (non-) responses from some of the same people who he
lped sort of save my faith and re-center it on advocacy for the victims & the vo
iceless. To see them joining in the same silencing and shaming that in other cas
es (less close to home, less tied in with money & status I guess...) they have s
trongly spoken out against, it's...honestly it's just devastating.
3
I am deeply saddened by your experience, and I thank you for expressing your fee
lings with candor and thoughtfulness.
I've written something above, which expresses some of my frustration, too.
Blessings, brother.
Adrenalin Tim Adrenalin Tim - 7 days ago
Brad Sargent has also been doing systematic and thorough work documenting the so
urces and piecing together a timeline; there's a great resource here.
3
Tim Wilson-Brown - 7 days ago
"Jones unlocks the chains of fear and shame that bind so much of Christianity an
d offers us instead, freedom." I have heard from several reliable sources that T
ony Jones is pretty good at applying chains of fear and shame to those who publi
cly or privately disagree with him. His treatment of Julie McMahon is a prime ex
ample of this, as is the ensuing treatment of Julie by many notorious Emergent f
igures. And their silence about Tony Jones' behaviour.
16
Garp - 7 days ago
Is this book as "amazing" as his book about how it is okay to leave your wife fo
r a "spiritual wife"?
14
Danica - 7 days ago
Nadia, if you support a known abuser and an admitted narcissist, someone who has
used and continues to use his power in the Emergent church to silence his victi
m / ex wife, then we have a major problem. I have been seriously considering con
tacting your bishop for a while now, over this issue, and I think this endorseme
nt just prompted me to do it.
17
Danica Danica - 7 days ago

Not to mention the fact that he justified his adultery by inventing the heresy o
f 'sacramental marriage', which he even had the hubris to publish an ebook about
. Why did you hang up the phone on Julie when she called and asked for help, Nad
ia? This are not the actions of a pastor.
14
Beth Anderson - 7 days ago
Thanks for linking to that endorsement page so I know exactly who is supporting
Tony Jones by endorsing his book. It could be the best book in the world and I s
till wouldn't read it because I can't take him seriously anymore after hearing a
bout what he did/is doing to his ex-wife. I guess I'm learning to let go of my i
dols, since so many of them are endorsing him. Can you imagine how you'd feel if
Phyllis Tickle, Shane Claiborne and Lauren Winner were endorsing Mark Driscoll'
s latest book? That's how I feel right now :-(
17
KT Pridgen Beth Anderson - 7 days ago
Ugh, Shane Claiborne too? I just assumed he was off living quietly in his commun
e/community trying to do good. Does anyone care that Tony is an abusive narcissi
st?!
5
christop1 KT Pridgen - 7 days ago
Has anyone contacted Claiborne about it?
2
KT Pridgen christop1 - 7 days ago
Not that I know of. He hasn't really been in the picture on this debacle. It's n
ot a bad idea. Who knows when these endorsements were written. Then again, you'd
think he'd have heard of this controversy by now at least. And silence in and o
f itself is a response...
5
christop1 KT Pridgen - 4 days ago
My impression is that he isn't much of an Internet user. On Simple Way's website
it says the best way to get in touch is by mail, and that it takes up to six mo
nths for him to get through his mail.
1
Danica KT Pridgen - 7 days ago
David Hayward cares. Stephanie Drury cares. RL Stollar cares.
12
KT Pridgen - 8 days ago
I wonder when you will endorse victims of abuse who have been marginalized by re
ligious leaders of the time instead of endorsing those religious leaders.
16
Garp - 8 days ago
It is interesting the way you say that he has detractors like you do. You have d
etractors because you are a woman that dares to talk about God. He has detractor
s because he has been accused of abuse. Very different in my opinion.
20
Dan Skogen Garp - 7 days ago
Nadia Bolz-Weber has detractors because of her teaching and quotes such as these
- ". . . Preaching hopef...ully in some way is the word of God, speaking is not
. So I thought, I wonder, we can look at Paul that way. You know like sometimes
he was just going off on his snotty opinions, he has some authority to speak on
it but that's not necessarily the Word of God." - "I had never stopped believing
in God, not really. But I did have to go hang out with His aunt for awhile. She
is called the goddess. My first experience with Wicca . . ." from her book Past
rix - "The goddess we spoke of never felt to me like a substitute for God but si
mply another aspect of the divine, like God's aunt or something. When I tell oth
er Christians of my time with the goddess I think they expect me to characterize
it as a period in my life when I was misguided and that now thankfully I have c
ome back to both Jesus and my senses. But it's not like that. I can't imagine th
at the God of the universe is limited to our ideas of God. I can't image that Go
d doesn't reveal Godself in countless ways outside of the simple system of Chris
tianity. And in a way I need a god who is bigger and more nimble and more myster
ious than what I could understand or contrive." from her book Pastrix - "Jesus g
athered with some real f**k-ups, held up bread and said take and eat . . ." - Bo
lz-Weber's book Pastrix, in the section "Fall 2005" - - "And just to be clear: T
he cross is not about God as divine child abuser sadly sending his little boy of
f to be killed because we were bad and well, somebody had to pay." from sermon h
eard by Rev. Tom Brock - "oh my god, nobody believes every line of the creed." ". . . I think that there is a really insipid message to girls when you use the
exclusive male pronoun for God . . . So whenever you sort of attribute a human
characteristic to God, that some people have and some people don't, it becomes p
roblematic." - Talking about her children Rev. Bolz-Weber says, "We are not the
kind of family that does a lot of like family devotionals. We don't pray togethe
r as a family. We don't do this faith stuff in our home. You know why? My kids a
re around it all the time. And so I just feel they need a break at home, you kno
w. So I know it's a big deal to like build faith in home; we don't do that."
3
Guest Garp - 7 days ago
Nadia has detractors also because of quotes and teaching from her such as these
- The church pastor preaches heresy and then some. Here are some quotes of Rev.
Nadia Bolz-Weber - ". . . Preaching hopefully in some way is the word of God, sp
eaking is not. So I thought, I wonder, we can look at Paul that way. You know li
ke sometimes he was just going off on his snotty opinions, he has some authority
to speak on it but that's not necessarily the Word of God." - "I had never stop
ped believing in God, not really. But I did have to go hang out with His aunt fo
r awhile. She is called the goddess. My first experience with Wicca . . ." from
her book Pastrix - "The goddess we spoke of never felt to me like a substitute f
or God but simply another aspect of the divine, like God's aunt or something. Wh
en I tell other Christians of my time with the goddess I think they expect me to
characterize it as a period in my life when I was misguided and that now thankf
ully I have come back to both Jesus and my senses. But it's not like that. I can
't imagine that the God of the universe is limited to our ideas of God. I can't
image that God doesn't reveal Godself in countless ways outside of the simple sy
stem of Christianity. And in a way I need a god who is bigger and more nimble an
d more mysterious than what I could understand or contrive." from her book Pastr
ix - "Jesus gathered with some real f**k-ups, held up bread and said take and ea
t . . ." - Bolz-Weber's book Pastrix, in the section "Fall 2005" - - "And just t
o be clear: The cross is not about God as divine child abuser sadly sending his
little boy off to be killed because we were bad and well, somebody had to pay."
from sermon heard by Rev. Tom Brock - "oh my god, nobody believes every line of
the creed." - ". . . I think that there is a really insipid message to girls whe
n you use the exclusive male pronoun for God . . . So whenever you sort of attri
bute a human characteristic to God, that some people have and some people don't,
it becomes problematic." - Talking about her children Rev. Bolz-Weber says, "We
are not the kind of family that does a lot of like family devotionals. We don't
pray together as a family. We don't do this faith stuff in our home. You know w
hy? My kids are around it all the time. And so I just feel they need a break at
home, you know. So I know it's a big deal to like build faith in home; we don't
do that."
1
GrumpySmurf Garp - 7 days ago
You also have detractors because you defended TJ. And refused to retract it even
after the evidence was presented that painted him in a very poor light indeed.
You need to come to grips with this very simple fact. And stop acting like it do
esn't matter, cause it does.
12
KT Pridgen GrumpySmurf - 7 days ago
It doesn't matter if Tony is abusive. He has good theology! Where have I heard t
hat before? (The answer is from Mark Driscoll's supporters, if anyone was wonder
ing.)
4
Adrenalin Tim Garp - 8 days ago
Galileo had "detractors". So did Jim Jones. Does NBW think that they are equal?
12
Rob Brown - 8 days ago
The idea of God killing Jesus has been around for a long time. And it is pretty
silly.
And who is Julie?
1
Becky Rouzer Northcutt Rob Brown - 8 days ago
Julie Is Tony Jones' ex-wife, the mother of his children, whose shoulder he inju
red, who he betrayed by having an affair, and who he and his friends falsely acc
used of being mentally ill when he is the one with the diagnosis of narcissism.
She is the one he is trying to ruin financially and who he is driving to despair
.
15
Rob Brown Becky Rouzer Northcutt - 7 days ago
Ew, that is not friendly! Or even what i understand as being Christian (though i
t does remind me of our capacity for evil!).
Blessings to Julie in the midst of her struggles!
3
Becky Rouzer Northcutt - 8 days ago
When you speak up for Julie like you do for Tony, then I will listen to you. Rig
ht now, I don't understand your motives or values at all.
22
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Do you have questions about the cross?

April 2, 2015 by Nadia Bolz Weber

e inappropriate ad hominem attacks. I will, therefore, be disabling comments for

directly the the Disqus conversation: https://disqus.com/home/discus...

proceedings (which proceedings resulted in divorce from his first wife);

Annie Banannie Kandace - 17 hours ago

d good fruit to come to bear.

Leslie Lea - a day ago

BigBrowner - a day ago

ress I am calling the cops on that. No, seriously I am right now.

KT Pridgen AnnieOly - a day ago

elderberry Caryn LeMur - a day ago

se for defamation of character is the truth. And I have it.

Kandace KT Pridgen - 2 days ago

Kandace KT Pridgen - 2 days ago

George Guest - 2 days ago

Guest CanIbeFrank - 2 days ago

Guest BigBrowner - 2 days ago

e are many more: https://rlstollar.wordpress.co... http://www.redletterchristian

He IS litigating me into poverty. How else do you describe a situation where a p

really not understand the sheer magnitude of an NPD diagnosis?

Tim Wilson-Brown MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago

Guest MichaelOP04 - 2 days ago

feels like toeing a line to me, as Ragnarock explained below.

head. Like they were patting me on the head. :(

ys, by the way?

shared publicly though.

pecially those with technological skills.

? Of course not! But we shouldn't shut victims up because we have endorsement de

Adrenalin Tim BethAgain - 6 days ago

Adrenalin Tim jenswisher - 6 days ago

"Spiritual wife". Sorry, still can't stop laughing.

Danica Danica - 7 days ago

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