ON EN PARLE

Crise financire l'universit de Versailles-Saint-Quentin : qui la faute ?

Accueil Entretiens Ken Robinson : Grassroots learning revolution

Entretien | International, Innovation

Ken Robinson : Grassroots learning

revolution
Emmanuel Davidenkoff | Publi le 2 7 .1 1 .2 01 3 1 5H2 2 , m is jour le 2 7 .1 1 .2 01 3 1 7 H53

Ken Robinson // DR

Sir Ken Robinson is an internationally recognized leader in the development of

creativity, innovation and human resources in education and in business. He
works with governments and educations systems in Europe, Asia and the USA
and his talks to the prestigious T ED Conference have been viewed more than
25 million times. His 2009 best seller T he Element: How Finding Your Passion
Changes Everything has been translated into 21 languages. Ken Robinson,
invited by EducPros, will give a conference in Paris on december 12 in their
head office. Interview.

T he key to success is to combine "the things we love to do and the things we

are good at". All right. However, you more often take your examples among
the artists and entrepreneurs than among the plumbers and supermarket
cashiers.
The Element is where talent meets passion. We all have our own unique talents and passions.
I do give some examples of artists and entrepreneurs. But I also talk about scientists and
teachers, cooks and community workers, cleaners and parents. There arent any specific
roles or activities that appeal to everyone equally. Something that I might love to do, you
might find boring and unfulfilling, and vice versa. Finding your Element is about
finding what works best for you. Its about finding yourself.
People develop themselves "against" (against their teachers, against the status
quo, against authority figures...) Could we say that all the artists and
entrepreneurs you mention also made themselves against adversity ?
Not everyone has to struggle to be in their Element, but some people do. They may have to
push back against their practical circumstances or culture, or against the attitudes of their
parents, teachers or other authority figures. They may feel held back by the expectations of
their friends, lovers or spouses. Were all affected by other peoples opinions of us and it can
be very difficult to create new ways of being and of being seen. Thats why I talk so much in
The Element about the obstacles you may have to face and how people in different
circumstances have dealt with them.
You say that the child has to find, as early as possible, his calling, a purpose...
How may school contribute to that ?
You can find your Element at any age, not only when youre young. And were not confined to
one Element for life. Its perfectly usual for passions and talents to evolve as we mature and
discover more about ourselves and the world around us. Formal education often gets in the
way because it is typically focussed on a very narrow idea of talent and doesnt encourage us
to explore our personal interests. One way that schools could help is by providing a broad
curriculum in the early years, so that children have more opportunities to discover their
talents, and by allowing them in later years to specialise more in areas they especially

enjoy.

Formal education often gets in the way because it is

typically focussed on a very narrow idea of talent
Going back to basics doesnt make any sense. But what can be done when a
large proportion of the pupils dont master those basics ?
By "the basics" people normally mean mathematics and literacy. Im not saying that students
shouldnt master these disciplines. I think they should. But theyre much more likely to do so
if theyre interested and engaged in education and thats one of my arguments for more
creative approaches to treaching and learning. But the basics are much more than this. They
are the fundamental purposes that underpin education: economic, cultural, social and
personal. To meet these purposes schools need a broad and balanced approach to
education that includes not only mathematics and literacy but the arts, sciences, humanities
and physical education. This is one of the basic implications of The Element.
You say that school has pushed aside "the heart, the body, the senses and a
good portion of our actual brains". In practical terms, how could we take them
back ?
There are three core processes in education: the curriculum, which is what we want students
should learn; teaching, which is how we help them to do it; and assessment, which is how we
judge their progress. Current forms of education are based on a narrow view of academic
ability and they result in limited curricula, restricted styles of teaching and impersonal forms
assessment that are dominated by raw numbers and grades. Education should engage the
whole student, intellectually, emotionally, spiritually and physically. To do that in practice
we need to transform curricula, teaching and assessment. In The Element I give various
examples of how this is being done.

Education should engage the whole student,

intellectually, emotionally, spiritually and
physically
We are going the wrong way altogether: "jobs and competitiveness depend
absolutely on the very qualities that school systems are being forced to tamp
down". Could you be more specific ?
One of the purposes of education is economic. One of the problem is that current systems of
education are based on an outdated view of economics and business.
In 2010, IBM published "Capitalising on Complexity", a study that was based on personal
interviews with 1.500 CEOS from companies of all sizes across 60 countries, representing 33
industries. The report concluded that two of the most important challenges that companies
face are a) adapting to rapid change and b) developing a culture of innovation. For
these they need people who can think creatively, work well in teams and respond quickly to
new opportunities. Typically, education does not prepare students for these roles in working
life. On the contrary, it tends to promote compliance and to suppress creativity.
"One of the enemies of creativity is common sense". Yet some basic rules have
to be taught. Could you expect that a child, by doubting, will rebuild the
principles that underlie the multiplication tables ?
Of course not and I dont make this argument in the Element. Being creative doesnt mean
breaking all rules the sake of it. Often, creativity is encouraged by boundaries and
restrictions think of the rules of sports and games. But sometimes innovation does
come from challenging accepted ways of thinking and behaving. Thats how new
games come about.
Human culture evolves precisely because of our ability to discover to new ways of doing
things. Getting the balance right between tradition and imnnovation, convention and
creativity is at the heart of good education and of creativity.
Intelligence is brought down to verbal and mathematical reasoning. T his dates
back to Greek antiquity, and was reinforced by the Industrial Revolution and
the Age of Enlightenment. Pretty heavy legacy. How can we break with twenty
centuries of history ?
I dont say that intelligence has been reduced to verbal and mathematical reasoning. T hese
are essential skills and they can be used in highly creative ways. But theres much
more to human intelligence than these, which is why human culture is so various and
fascinating.
For historical reasons, education has become pre-occupied with certain types of 'academic'
ability with certain uses of verbal and mathematical reasoning. I believe this is already

changing. In the culture at large there is a growing understanding of the range and vitality of
intelligence. Education is changing too. Our task is to promote and accelerate these
changes.

Getting the balance right between tradition and

imnnovation, convention and creativity is at the
heart of good education and of creativity
T he influence of peers is stronger than that of parents. T his wont get any
better with social networks, "like" culture, peer groups.
Yes, the evidence is that young people can be influenced more by their friends and peer
groups than by their parents. Social networking sites can increase this influence and that they
can have negative as well as positive effects. We should remember though that peer influence
is not always bad and parental influence is not always good.
The real task is to help young people develop their powers of critical judgement and their
own sense of identity, purpose and resilience. Helping them to discover their individual
talents and passions to find their Element is an essential part of that process.
T he system you describe should not have spotted you, who attended a special
school from the age of five. You differed from the norm on more than one
account.
Everyone differs from the norm on more than one account. Ive had various mentors and
guides who have played significant roles at different points in my life. The same is true for
many of the people I feature in the Element. Mentors can be tremendously important for all
of us. Often they can see potential in us that were slow to recognise in ourselves.
Breaking the barriers between subjects in order to show the unity of
knowledge. On paper this seems almost obvious. But is it a realist idea when all
systems, all curriculums, from primary school to university, are divided into
subjects ?
There are many ways of organising the curriculum. "Subjects" are often the least useful.
Mathematics is not really a subject; nor is music or history. They are disciplines that are
characterised by particular processes, concepts, techniques and interests, which overlap and
intersect in all sorts of ways. Disciplines are constantly evolving. In the early 19t h
century, chemistry, literature, psychology and sociology werent studied in universities as
they are now. They simply hadnt evolved as we recognize them today. Schools and
universities that try to stand still as knowledge evolves around the will
inevitably become irrelevant.
"Investing in the improvement of teaching and the status of great teachers".
In many countries however, the idea of merit pay is much debated. How could
merit be measured so that teachers would agree to be subjected to such
assessment ?
Great schools depend on great teachers. Great teaching is a sophisticated and multidimensional process. Like the rest of us, teachers like to be recognised when they do a good
job. The problem is that too often they are judged only by the raw test results of their
students. A fair system of evaluating teachers would also consider the quality of their
teaching, their impact as mentors and their wider value in the life of the school and the
community. Merit pay is only one form of reward and not necessarily the best
one. It can create difficulties that other forms of public and professional recognition do not.
Personalizing education Could MOOCs contribute to it ? Can you see a
fundamental change in them? Or just a temporary trend ?
More and more, education has to be personalised: it has to be tailored to the interests and
learning styles of individual students. Digital technologies provide tremendous opportunities
for doing this, both in the access they give to ideas, information and networks and in the tools
they provide for research, study and creativity. They will and they should transform
education in the years ahead.
MOOCs are an example of the huge global demand for learning and they are
already generating new economic and pedagogical models, especially for higher
education. They are also producing fascinating data on new approaches to teaching and
learning. Whether they will survive in the current form is hard to say but we should all be
paying close attention to the lessons they are already teaching us.
Grangeton, Reggio Emilia Alternative experiences do exist, and you mention
several of them. However, they dont even expand in their own area, let alone
in their country. Why ?

These are just two examples of "alternative" models of education. There are many others and
they stand in a long tradition of alternative education that includes the work of Maria
Montessori, John Dewey and many others. Such examples are growing around the world.
Reggio Emilia, for example, has had tremendous influence on the education of young
children far beyond Italy.
Its important to remember that education is a human process, not a
mechanical one. It cant be replicated like making motor cars and exported to new
markets like inanimate products. Education is much more like agriculture. It is a slow,
seasonal process thats affected by climate, local conditions and circumstances. And it has to
be constantly tended and nurtured. As the world climate for education continues to change,
these alternatives will continue to take root in many new and fertile settings.
Imagine you were the Secretary for Education in France, which has 800.000
teachers. You are given an extra 2.5 billion euros (3.4 billion dollars) each year
on top of a 46 billion euro budget (62 billion dollars). What will you do with
them (In France, additional teaching positions were created, without
increasing salaries) ?
I dont claim to be an expert in the economics of the French education system and dont have
detailed knowledge of all the challenges in different areas of the country. In general, though,
the greatest impact in educational achievement comes from supporting the
professional development of teachers.
In my experience, three keys areas in which teachers need professional support are a)
creative approaches to teaching and learning b) teaching and learning with digital
technologies c) personalising student assessment. If a 5% annual increase in the education
budget were targeted on professional development in these areas, it could have a huge impact
on the quality of teaching, learning and achievement in all schools.
You say that schools follow the fast-food model instead of the Michelin guide
model. However, the Michelin restaurants cost a fortune.
One of the myths of the catering industry is that fast food is cheap and good food is
expensive. Burgers may be cheap for the consumer but we should also count the real costs to
our economies and societies. They include the disastrous impact of industrial food
production on the the environment and the soaring medical costs of treating diabetes, heart
disease and obesity. These arent included in the cost of burger but we cover them
nonetheless as taxpayers. The ingredients of healthy food are not necessarily more expensive
and the health benefits can be much greater.
Its the same with education. Systems of mass education that alienate many students and fail
to meet the real challenges we all face is an expensive waste of resources. Quality educaton
that cultivates the real interests and talents of students is no more expensive
and is a much better investment for all of us.
Your T ED conference on creativity was viewed 17 million times, and the
animation entitled "Changing education paradigms", more than 10 million
times. We can deduce that things are changing. Can you see other evidences ?
The impact of my TED talks is an interesting guide to global interest in these issues. We think
that these talks have been seen by over 300 million people in more than 150
countries. We get to this number because theyre so often shown at conferences and to large
groups. I get a lot of feedback from people and organisations all over the world who are
working to put these ideas into practice. I talk with politicians and with practitioners. The
change is happening and its coming from the grassroots students, teachers, parents and
community leaders. Thats how real revolutions always begin.

Sir Ken Robinson : Official website and blog

Emmanuel Davidenkoff | Publi le 2 7 .1 1 .2 01 3 1 5H2 2 , m is jour le 2 7 .1 1 .2 01 3 1 7 H53