Jimerson 1

Carleshia Jimerson
04/16/2015
EUH 3142
Lucrezias Dreams/The Cheese and the Worms Review
Lucrecias Dreams and The Cheese and the Worms are mini-histories created with the
same aim, to use the story of one persons experiences to gain a broader perspective on the times
in which they lived. The Cheese and the Worms follows the inquisition trial of a miller nicknamed Menocchio in Italy, while Lucrecias Dreams detail the life and trial of Lucrecia de Lon
in Spain. The argument of both books is similar but with a difference in presentation. Ginzburg
introduces Menocchio and his life before his arrest to provide context as to why he was arrested
before providing his main argument. He supports his argument by first spending time throwing
out other religions as the culprit behind Menocchios beliefs for various reasons ending with,
Menocchios beliefs--instead of being based on another religion--are truly based on his readings
and peasant radicalism (Ginzburg, 19). Kagan remains more obscure with his argument,
spending the first chapter of the book giving context on Lucrecia like Ginzburg then preferring
instead in every chapter to come forth with a new part of a thesis to become one larger argument
in which Lucrecias dreams are both the product of the popular culture, her gender,particularly
when it came to marriage for herself and Isabella--and current politics.
Ginzburg after his introduction begins supporting his argument by detailing the
Inquisition records of Menocchios trials. With every section Ginzburg introduces another belief
held by Menocchio or expounds on what that belief meant on the basis of the Church. Ginzburg
also breaks from the trials to delve into the context of the world occurring outside Menocchios
situation in Friuli. Ginzburg also relates Menocchios relationship to the current events in his

Jimerson 2
area by explaining what he was exposed to which brought on his beliefs on power and religion.
Ginzburg identifies issues Menocchio and the Inquisitor struggle with and uses that as the next
point in his argument, for example, Menocchio contradicts himself repeatedly on the subject of
the creator God leaving the Inquisitor to figure out his real feelings on the matter, to which
Ginzburg responds by pointing to several passages read by Menocchio in the Fioretto della
Bibbia that directly speak about the nature of the creation of angels and the creator God that was
warped by the thought process of Menocchio (Ginzburg, 64).
Kagan once again preferred a more subtle route with the presentation of his argument,
opting for a more storytelling argument. He structures the book that is chronologically organized
with topics for better clarity than Ginzburg provides. His third chapter, Politics and Prophecy
delves into the current events at the time and how they relate to the dreams. He starts the chapter
topically, discussing the history of prophets in Spain and what kind of prophecies were usually
discussed. He continues on to give political context of the period surrounding Lucrecias arrest
by the Inquisition. He details the political sphere surrounding Spain at the time particularly the
conquest of Portugal and the south Netherlands, and the influx of bad omens in Spain with,
economic stagnation, and thousands of hungry peasants flooded into Madrid, Toledo, and
Seville looking for work (Kagan, 91). Kagan uses the sudden downturn of the country as a basis
for Lucrecias projection of her father onto Philip as someone who couldnt provide for his
country, particularly relating his ailing health to apocalyptic ideas in the country (Kagan, 93).
Ginzburg focuses his work on a wide audience, Thus, it is addressed to the general
reader as well as to the specialist (Ginzburg, 13). His audience causes him to forgo numbered
footnotes and have a tighter argument in the prose with minute explanations in the notes. Kagan
includes footnotes and addresses his work to a wide audience as well but completes this task

Jimerson 3
worse than Ginzburg due to the flow within chapters, for example, chapter three begins with the
history of prophecy in Spain then jumps to the political sphere of the time with very little liaison
in between ideas. The source base used by both authors is centered on the Inquisition records of
the cases, but both authors supplement differently for their argument. While Ginzburg
supplements his argument with books read by Menocchio, Kagan supplements his argument with
sources that focus on the social and political workings of the time like letters concerning
Lucrecia. Kagan includes the letter of Domingo Lpez that describes Lucrecias improving
health to support his claim that the misfortunes of the government helped Lucrecia, Lucrecia is
healthy; they even tell me she is fat, although she doesnt talk as much as before (Kagan, 125).
Both Kagan and Ginzburg use the sources of the Inquisitor trials to tell a rather complete
story concerning their individual subjects; However Ginzburg speculates less in his broader
argument within his story, while Kagan speculates with thin evidence on the psychological
reasoning behind her dreams with the family romance supposedly causing her to project herself
onto Isabella and her father onto Philip. Ginzburg succeeds in bringing significance to
Menocchios story by showing the change the Inquisition had on him in his second trial and the
change living amongst other peasants had on him, for example, In the first trial, as we recall,
Menocchio had never mentioned supernatural revelations (Ginzburg, 107). Ginzburg expounds
on the Menocchios attempts to say what the Inquisitor wanted him to say instead of his attempts
at wit in his first trial, calling his ideas about faith, fantasies that he tries to ignore (Ginzburg,
104). Kagan attempts to bring significance to Lucrecia, however her fame at the time does the
job for him, what Kagan does do to raise her importance is not done as well as Ginzburg due a
very small conclusion that relates her dreams to later Spaniards works, and admits that she was
forgotten in many of the histories of Philips reign (Kagan, 166.).

Jimerson 4
Religion was the base of Ginzburgs work, with Menocchio battling his own religious
beliefs and the beliefs of others he had read, all the while trying to be a good Christian for the
Inquisition. Ginzburg tactfully presents the different beliefs without bias towards a specific
religion using the evidence from the time to specify the beliefs of Lutheranism, Anabaptists, and
others. (Ginzburg, 19). Kagan on the other hand, focuses his argument avoiding religion and
prefers to focus on the political and social issues like Lucrecias success at court instead of true
religious belief until the end of the work.
To me as a reader, The Cheese and the Worms was the most successful out of the two
works not in ease to read, but in clarity of argument and the way the argument was followed
through while engaging any points of contention possible. Kagan presents his work well with an
easy to understand quality, but his leaps of psychology and focus on politics and social
interactions weaken his argument. While the Ginzburg work convinced me that peasants had
their own philosophy that was forced to contend with religion and current affairs, Kagan
followed a less holistic approach and focused on the gender of Lucrecia and the political Spain
that failed to convince me nearly as well.