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MAY 2015

The Official Membership Publication of

The International
Comanche Society

VOLUME 42, NO. 5

Proud Sponsor of


The Comanche Flyer

is the official monthly member

publication of the

International Comanche Society

Volume 42, No. 5 May 2015

P.O. Box 1810

Traverse City, MI 49685-1810
U.S.: (888) 300-0082 Other: (231) 946-3712
Fax: (231) 946-6180 E-mail:

Published By the International Comanche Society, Inc.
Managing Editor


Melissa Frisbie

Senior Advertising Director

John Shoemaker
(800) 773-7798 Fax: (231) 946-9588

Advertising Administrative Assistant

Trading Post & Classified Advertising

Betsy Beaudoin
Ph: (800) 773-7798, Fax: (231) 946-9588

Graphic Design

Brandon Hoffman


Village Press
2779 Aero Park Drive
Traverse City, MI 49685-0629


Bob Cretney, ICS #2269, SC Tribe

428 McDaniel Rd, Ferris, TX 75125
Cell: (214) 725-6584

Vice President

Berl Grant, ICS #10704, NC Tribe

426 Mutton Creek Drive, Seymour, IN 47274
Ph: (812) 522-2587


Ron Keil, ICS #7001

1135 Christine Dr., Lapeer, MI 48446
Ph: (810) 406-2065 Cell: (810) 834-0168


Pat Donovan, ICS #12246, MS Tribe

421 Piper Ct., Troy, MO 63379
Phone: (636) 462-8370

CFF President: (non-voting)

Mike Foster, ICS #14077, SC Tribe

970 Flightline Dr., Spring Branch, Texas 78070
Cell: (210) 701-6795

Maintenance Resource Advisors &

ICS Tool Loan Program Contact
(located on Page 13)

The Comanche Flyer (ISSN 08994223, USPS 2-324)

is available to members; the $25 annual subscription
rate is included in the Societys Annual Membership
dues in US funds below. Comanche Flyer is published
monthly by Village Press
U.S., Canada, Mexico
One year $72, Two years $136

2 Letter from the President

Bob Cretney

Comanche Spirit

4 How I Came to Own N8332P

10 ICS Membership Form
12 ICS and Tribe Officers

James Gary Gray

Board of Directors,

Tribe Chiefs & Tribe Representatives

ICS Standing Committees

13 Maintenance Resource Advisors

CFF-Trained CFIs
ICS Tool Loan Program

Online Intelligence
14 Starters

16 ICS Name Badge Order Form


Convention News

Vote 2015



20 Carb Heat = Cost Savings

Richard Koehler

24 2015 Convention
26 Registration Form
32 ICS Items for Sale

LaVerne Stroh

34 ICS General Membership Electronic Voting

35 From the Tribe Chiefs

Sally Williams

39 Comanche Pilot Proficiency Program in Lantana, Florida Rich Lanning

43 A Blistering Lap
46 Comanche Classifieds
47 Advertisers Index

Steve Zaboji

UK, Europe, Asia & Africa

One year $98, Two years $188
All Other Countries
One year $86, Two years $164
Spousal Members
One year $36, Two years $72
Cover Photo
James Gary Grays 1964 Comanche PA-24-250
Copyright Notice

The act of making a submission for publication is an

express warranty that such contribution does not infringe
on the rights or copyright of others. Nothing appearing
in the Comanche Flyer shall be reproduced or distributed
without the express permission of the publisher.


Send address changes to the above address.

Periodical postage paid at Traverse City, MI 49686

MAY 2015

Comanche Flyer


Welcome to the May issue of the Comanche Flyer.

he 2015 Annual Convention is

just around the corner and if you
havent registered yet, its time.
Each issue of the Flyer has an interesting article about the Convention as well
as Oklahoma history and enjoyable
places to visit, each different from the
last. This year promises to be informative, entertaining and a lot of fun. We
have scheduled a long list of exhibitors
and seminars with some specific vendors offering seminars. Door prizes will
be given away from all attending exhibitors as well as a number of companies
that may not get to the convention.
Aircraft Specialties, in particular, is
donating several giveaways, including cans of CamGuard. Airport day
will include Comanche judging classes
for Best Single, Best Twin, Members
Choice, and Flagship.
Look for the bios of your slate of new
officers along with electronic voting

instructions in the June issue. The past

few years have seen minimal member
participation in the voting process, so
please make every effort to participate.
Without enough members voting, the
election is not legal per the Bylaws.
ICS has had the good fortune of
having a group of aviation writers offer
to write members stories about their
Comanche experiences. If you have
something in mind, please give me a
call. You can tell your story to one of
the writers and he or she will create
the article; it will then be published
in the Flyer.
Last month I briefly mentioned
upgrading our Comanches and the fact
that even with the expense involved in a
large project, the end product would be
less than half the cost of a used Next
Generation aircraft. Additionally, the

Comanche Flyer Submission Guidelines

All members are encouraged to submit articles for publication in
the Comanche Flyer. If you have an article about a maintenance event,
trip, piloting technique, or anything else pertinent to Comanche
ownership, please share it with your fellow members.
For those with access to the Internet, please submit the article
via e-mail, preferably in Microsoft Word. You may also include the
article in the body of your e-mail message. Include your full name,
as you would like it published, and your ICS number.
Please attach digital pictures, if applicable, in jpeg format.
For best results, use the highest resolution setting your camera
will allow. Photo files under 500 kb in size typically do not
reproduce well.

Although submissions are reviewed for technical accuracy, the

information in this magazine is meant for reference only. Any
modifications, alterations, or major repairs to U.S. aircraft require
FAA-approved data as a basis for beginning work, and as such should
not be based solely on information contained in this magazine. The
International Comanche Society does not endorse any piloting
adverse to published FAA regulations.
Submissions are subject to editing and revision unless specifically requested to be published as submitted. The right is reserved
to publish or not, any submission.
Deadline for all submissions is the 20th of the month, approximately 40 days prior to month of publication.

Send to: Melissa Frisbie, Managing Editor at

Articles and photos may also be sent via U.S. Mail to:

Melissa Frisbie 125 N. Turnberry St., Wichita, KS 67230

2 Comanche Flyer

MAY 2015

Comanche will outperform it in range,

payload, room, and cost of operation.
Another aspect to consider regarding the future of the Comanche aircraft
is the diesel engine. Currently, there
is nothing on the market that makes
sense, but technology will get there
and as the waning availability of avgas
continues to drive up its cost, there will
be greater incentives to overcome the
technology issues. The development of
STCs for converting the Comanche to
diesel power would add another dimension to its range, reduced fuel costs
and consumer demand. This would
give the singles roughly a 1500-mile
range, or trade some of that range for an
increase in payload. In either case, the
airplane would be another step ahead
of its competition.

Tales from the Wide Side

There are certain aircraft sounds
that can only be heard at night and over
the ocean. Most of them create anxiety.

F or over 37 year s, the I ndustr y C ho ice!







14/15 color coded sections, simplify, organize and centralize all data.
Provides lightning-fast retrieval of all maintenance ADs, service
bulletins and inspection requirements for your aircraft. Includes
AD search, text of applicable ADs, and 1 year AD revision service.
Keeps you on top of all required repetitive activity- annuals, 100
hour inspections, transponder/altimeter checks, VOR checks, etc.
Because adlog saves your maintenance facility valuable time, you
save valuable money. E-Mail:

1-800-235-6444 FAX: 1-631-765-9359


www. ad lo g. co m

Til later ...

Bob Cretney

ICS Past Presidents

2011-2012 Zach Grant

1999 Roy Roberts

1989 William Creech

1979 Larry Larkin

2009-2010 Bernie Mazurek

1998 Harley McGatha

1988 Jim Fox

1978 Clifford Younger

2007-2008 Dave Fitzgerald

1997 Charles Wiseman

1987 Pat Rowe

1977 Art Shriver

2006 Lawrence Paratz

1996 Bryce Campbell

1986 Ted Peifer

1976 Mike Keedy

2005 Karl Hipp

1995 Jess Bootman

1985 Bill Shank

1975 George Smith

2004 Skip Dykema

1994 Chuck Medicus

1984 Jerry Irvin

1974 Paul Rechnitzer

2003 John Van Bladeren

1993 Dale Vandever

1983 Bill Stanyer

1973 Andy Speer

2002 Larry Rackley

1992 Bill Jackson

1982 Norn Berneche

2001 Robert Noble

1991 Martin Busch

1981 Ben Kitchens

2000 David Buttle

1990 George Burson

1980 Jack Holaway

MAY 2015

Comanche Flyer


How I
Came to
Own N8332P
Photo courtesy of PAUL SICARAS

by James Gary Gray, ICS #16760

KLXV Lake County Airport Leadville, CO at 9,934

feet is the highest airport in North America. Day trip
from Denver en route to ICS Seattle Convention.
4 Comanche Flyer

MAY 2015

Cover/runway/aerial photos courtesy of SCOTT THOMASON


t was the fall of 2007. The economy was down, gas prices were up
and local flight school fleets were
shrinking. My favorite rental aircraft, a
Mooney 201J, had just been totaled in
a forced landing due to a thrown rod.
In the past I had been a good rental
customer, kept up my skills and always
took an IFR lesson prior to any long
trip. And I was checked out in all of
the singles on the flight line. So when
it came time for a weekend trip, I could
travel and not be concerned with daily
minimums. If one plane was down
for maintenance there was usually
another one available. All of that flexibility had evaporated.

MAY 2015

My financial situation was good at

the time and used aircraft prices were
dropping, but I was still hesitant about
buying my own plane. I discussed this
with a fellow engineer (who had soloed
but never got his license). My friend
Bill Smart (yes that is his real name)
said I had a choice of two futures, I
could either be an old man who used
to own an airplane or an old man who
always wanted to own an airplane.
Bills advice sunk in and I got serious
in my search for a complex traveling
machine, most likely a Piper Arrow
or a Cherokee Six. I had never heard
much about the Comanches and had
only knowingly seen one in the past.

I live in Greenville, SC, which is

between Atlanta, GA and Charlotte,
NC. Greenville has the sixth highest
concentration of engineers per capita
in the US and I am an automation
I was on assignment at Paul Mueller
Company in Springfield, MO checking
out bioreactors for a drug plant in
Puerto Rico. Over dinner at the Steak
and Shake on Route 66, a colleague
and I were discussing my search for
a plane. A gentleman named Jack
Reynolds stopped by and asked which
Greenville we were from and what
airport I used. I confirmed GMU as
my home base.
Comanche Flyer

Plenty of room for the golf

bags with one seat removed.
Photo courtesy of SCOTT THOMASON

Jack was a King Air driver for Paul

Mueller Company and had been to GMU
that same day to visit my company. He
asked if I knew Hank Brown (the local
FBO owner and a former Comanche
pilot). Yes I did was followed by a long
conversation about airplanes.
Jack was an ICS member and the
proud owner of his second Comanche.
He expounded on the history and virtues of the Comanche and Lycoming
engines. He explained what a great
traveling aircraft it was and suggested
I join ICS for a year to get acquainted
with the model while having access
to the various forums and experts. I
joined ICS that week.
I test flew a Cherokee Six and two
Comanches for sale locally. One had
too much vibration, one shuttered on
go-arounds, and one conked out on the
run up (we had to be towed back to
the hangar). Then I spotted N8332P,
a 1964 Model 250 with fuel injection.
The plane was 800 miles away based in
South Florida but it seemed to have most
of the features I was looking for including a Garmin GNS 530 with weather
services and flip-up seats in the rear. It
had been serviced for years by Aircraft
Engineering in Bartow, FL and looked
6 Comanche Flyer

good on paper. I bought a one-way ticket

to Fort Lauderdale and ended up flying
home in my own airplane.

all the unnecessary components and

saw no more smoke. I informed ATC,
landed and taxied to the shop.

The previous owner, Henry Ohlef,

was also an ICS member. He used the
plane to travel between Maryland and
Florida. As a retired electrical engineer
I think he really enjoyed redesigning
the instrument panel. The Electronics
International components are all coordinated and the plane has a Black Box
MUX 8A Data recorder. Henry also gets
credit for the wonderful paint scheme
based on the original Comanche advertisements from 1958.

Upon inspection there was nothing

wrong with the instrument panel so
we looked at the engine compartment.
On the right side, the original single
exhaust muffler had slightly separated
at the collar. I asked the Maintenance
Manager (the late Nick Porcel) if the
plane could be ferried back to GMU
and he replied Mister, Im not sure I
would even start this engine much less
ferry it an hour from here.

Prior to and after the purchase I

got a lot of support from a local ICS
member Maurice (Mo) Mayo. He
owned a beautiful Comanche 180. Mo
had made several improvements to his
bird including the stainless steel dual
exhaust conversion.

Two months later I picked up my

plane with a new dual exhaust, an
S-TEC 30 autopilot with altitude hold
and GPS steer, a new 406 MHz ELT,
and a WASS upgrade to the GNS 530.
In the first four months of ownership
I had blown my contingency for the
first four years.

My first cross country was a trip to

Lakeland, FL to visit relatives. On the
way I had a planned stop at Macon, GA
to visit Lowe Aviation and get a quote
on an autopilot. Twenty miles out on a
CAVU day, I saw a few wisps of smoke
coming out of the dash. Thinking I
had an electrical problem I shutdown

One hiccup with the upgrade was

the onboard weather receiver. When I
upgraded the GNS 530 to WASS service
the GDL 49 became obsolete. I could
have installed a GDL 69 at the time but
that only gives you weather while you
are in the plane. I opted for a Garmin
696 with the XM weather option. I can
MAY 2015

use that service anywhere with or without a cell signal or internet connection.
Plus it has the two most important features to an IFR pilot: a nearest button
and the six pack gauge simulation.

The Great Brake Mystery

I doubt there is a single Comanche
in the field without some modifications
to the original design. As the latest
owner you find things out over time.
A couple of years after purchasing the
plane I flew it to Rockford, IL for one
of the CPPP Training Sessions and a
maintenance check by Cliff Wilewskis
crew at Heritage Aero.
During the walk around Zack Grant
pointed at my main gear and noted
that the forks had been swapped, but
they had not reversed the brakes. He
also observed that the ribs in the gear
wells had not been notched out and
doubled which was part of a typical
gear swap. OK so I heard what was
said but the plane flew fine and passed
all inspections, etc. I later found out
via the TIPS manual there were two
modification methods. The simple
swap like my plane had and the more
complicated swap with the brake and
rib modifications.
A couple of years later I flew to
Florida on vacation and left the plane
with the LoPresti folks in Sebastian,
FL. They added a slipper behind the
nose wheel, and slats and spats behind
the main gear. The installation and
fitting work was superb. I got some
speed and handling improvement but
nothing close to advertised.
A year later and the wheel wells
need to be painted during the annual
inspection. Everything is cleaned,
prepped and painted but we put
smaller cushion pads on the inside
of the wheel wells, which allowed the
main gear to retract a bit further. With
my setup the brakes housings came
into contact with the well pads. During
the next year I experienced occasional
partial brake failures upon landing
which usually could be corrected by
pumping the brakes a few times. The
brakes always worked fine after the
plane had sat overnight.
MAY 2015

I had two failures on my trip to

Seattle, WA. The brakes were bled
in Goodland, KS and fully checked
in Renton, WA. During subsequent
rechecks at my home base, my
mechanic Ted Hanes of Above and
Beyond Inc. replaced all the flexible
lines and O-rings, and we still had
intermittent problems. Finally something clicked and we figured out that
the brake calipers were contacting
the upper gear well and causing the

caliper piston to compress during

flight. This caused the first application
of the brakes to allow the pedal to go
to the floor. Not a good situation when
landing, especially on a short runway!
We then contacted a specialist at
Webco Aircraft and asked for instructions on swapping the brakes from the
front to the rear and notching the ribs.
Since that last repair the brakes have
worked just fine. And I immediately
Comanche Flyer

Photo courtesy of JAMES GRAY

Photo courtesy of SCOTT THOMASON

Lindy, age 16, getting her usual

flight briefing.

picked up those lost knots from the

main gear speed mods.

Morning Sickness?

SC00 Triple Tree Aerodrome Woodruff, SC 7,000 foot grass airstrip. ICS
member Carol Mucci is the lady on the tower. She owns a 1958 Comanche 180.

Prior to the brake debacle I started

having problems on weekend morning flights. The engine would start
fine and taxi with no problems but it
sometimes ran rough during the run
up. One or two of the cylinders would
indicate a problem on the Electronics
International UBG 16 engine analyzer
but the errors were not consistent.
We checked the spark plugs and
had some fouling there. We pulled
the mags and they bench tested fine.
I started researching the problem and
came across the term Lycoming
Morning Sickness. I began to worry
about valves sticking and other
mechanical issues.

Photo courtesy of SCOTT THOMASON

Full view of instrument panel.

8 Comanche Flyer

We went back through all of the

spark plugs again. Over the years the
plane had ended up with a mixed set
of fine wire and massive electrode
plugs. We changed out the entire set
of plugs and still had the occasional
problem. Then it happened one day
during the week and I was able to get
MAY 2015

Photo courtesy of JAMES GRAY

the aircraft straight into the shop. The

right magneto was failing but only after
it got hot! We changed out the faulty
unit and as the brits say, Bobs your
Uncle, all was well again.

go flying. My first course included a

maintenance inspection by Comanche
experts. It was money and time well

Seating Arrangements

My first ICS convention was in

Savannah, GA in 2011. This event was
close to home, an easy 1-hour flight.
I met lots of ICS members and learned
more about my airplane and the similar models in our fleet. The vendor
presentations were very informative, I
particularly enjoyed the Flight Safety
simulator tour. The instructor offered
to put us at any airport and I suggested
Vail, CO as I had flown in there a few
times. The 360-degree view was just
as I remembered.

The seats in the plane came from

a Piper Lance. I have copies of the
FAA 337 form and the field approval.
The flat platform in the rear is great
for camping and golf equipment. On
long trips we usually leave one seat
at home.
The one drawback is when Lindy
our dog is along for the ride. She wears
a harness with a loop on the back for
the seat belt to slide through. On one
rough trip I turned around and she was
half way into the baggage compartment! A standard seat cover solved
that problem. Our local trim shop guru
Gordon Ford fitted it to match the two
seats. He also added a custom pad to
flatten out the back seat. Now Lindy
travels in style. We also use this setup
for the shorter kids traveling on Young
Eagles flights.

Future Upgrades
My next big project is an engine
overhaul. The engine runs fine. Oil
consumption is reasonable for its age
but the calendar is ticking. I would
like to see an article on engine overhauls and the various options. Should
the prop and governor be changed at
the same time? What else should be
considered during this major event?

ICS Activities

all worked out. Friends from South

Carolina and England were able to join
me on those trips and we had several
adventures. Best flying: circling the
Devils Tower National Monument in
Wyoming. Best find: a Ladys boutique
in Deadwood, SD with a bar inside.
Yes, I will be attending this years convention in Oklahoma City.
I plan to make it to more regional
fly ins this year. Regards to our
Southeast Tribe Chief Phillip Hobbs,
his wife Becky, and to all of the ICS

I have attended each convention since in Baltimore, Seattle and

Oshkosh. I probably would have never
gone on an Alaskan cruise or flew into
Oshkosh because it would be too
much trouble to plan but ICS had
the accommodations and activities

Flat Rate Annuals - Structural Repairs - Modifications

Expert Glass Replacement - Engine Overhauls

Wish List
A year or so after the engine overhaul proves out and my checkbook
recovers, I would like to strip and insulate the interior and recover the seats
in a light grey scheme. My current
interior matches the original white and
brown paint job. ADS B Out is looming. And a glass panel might be cool.

I have attended training sessions
organized by both the CPPP and the
CPTP, and recommend them to any
current or future Comanche pilot.
The classes are well structured and
specific to your aircraft. They know
what your aircraft should do when you
MAY 2015

Offering Pre-purchase Evaluations in our shop or at aircraft location

Contact us for AD Note 2012-17-06 Stabilator Horn Assembly Inspection
STCD Australian Horn Installation Pick Up & Delivery Service Available

Our experienced Licensed Staff takes pride in assuring customer

safety and customer satisfaction, with special attention to detail.

In service since 1983

Clifton Airport P.O. Box 249 Clifton, TX 76634 Tim Talley ICS #8375
30 minute flight SW of Dallas/Ft. Worth

254-675-3771 e-mail:

Comanche Flyer



---------------------- PLEASE PRINT ----------------------

You know how valuable the International Comanche Society has been to you for helping you learn about and enjoy
your Comanche airplane, both singles and twins, providing a high-quality magazine, and for the camaraderie youve
experienced among your fellow members. Dont let your membership lapse or miss a single issue of Comanche Flyer!
And for convenience, we are now offering multiple-year memberships! Fill out the renewal form below, and e-mail, fax,
or mail it back to us, and keep enjoying the International Comanche Society!
Name:___________________________________________________ ICS Number:____________________________________________
City:_____________________________________________State:__________Zip:___________________ Country:____________________
Telephone:_______________________________________________ Fax:___________________________________________________
Aircraft Model:______________________________________________Based Airport Identifier:____________________________________
Registration/Tail #:___________________________________________Serial #:_______________________________________________

Renewal Selection

Spousal Renewal

U.S., Canada, Mexico*

One year $72
Two years $136

Spouses ICS#_____________________
One year $36
Two years $72

UK, Europe, Asia, and Africa**

One year $98
Two years $188

All Other Countries

One year $86
Two years $164

*Includes second-class mailing of the Flyer

**Includes $9 returned to the EU tribe for communications


-------------------------- PLEASE PRINT --------------------------

One of the beauties of owning and flying your own airplane is the quality time you get to spend with your spouse, traveling to
new destinations or social events, and filling the memory book for years to come. Your spouse can also join the International
Comanche Society for only $36! With a spousal membership, your spouse will receive a Membership Kit containing a folder,
membership card, membership certificate, a cloth ICS patch, ICS decal, access to the popular ICS website and discussion
forums, and voting rights! Simply fill out the form below and return it with payment to start your spouses membership today!
Your Name:_______________________________________________ Your ICS Number:_________________________________________
Spouses Name:__________________________________________________________________________________________________
City:_____________________________________________State:__________Zip:___________________ Country:____________________
Telephone:_______________________________________________ Fax:___________________________________________________

Spousal Membership
One year $36

Two years $72



(Please total all selections)

Check or Money Order

Credit Card Number:______________________________________________________________Exp. Date:_____________________

Amount Paid (U.S. Funds):_______________________________________________________________________________________
Authorized Signature:___________________________________________________________________________________________

Please mail to: International Comanche Society, P.O. Box 1810, Traverse City, MI 49685-1810.

10 Comanche Flyer

MAY 2015

Engine Baffles

Landing Gear Wire

Harness Kits

Conduit and Harness

Installation Service




PHONE: (954) 966-7329 FAX: (954) 966-3584

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FAx: 303-665-7164 FAA/EASA CRS FR6R545N

MAY 2015

Comanche Flyer



ICS and Tribe Officers


Bob Cretney, ICS #2269, SC Tribe

428 McDaniel Rd
Ferris, TX 75125
Cell: (214) 725-6584

Vice President

Berl Grant, ICS #10704, NC Tribe

426 Mutton Creek Drive
Seymour, IN 47274
Ph: (812) 522-2587


Tribe Chief/Tribe Rep Phillip Hobbs, ICS #10509*

Ph: (704) 651-9417

Northeast Tribe

Tribe Chief/Tribe Rep CJ Stumpf*

East Randolph, VT
Ph: (617) 816-8766

North Central:

Tribe Chief Bob Williams, ICS #13853

647 Robins Gate
Akron, OH 44319
Ph: (330) 867-6711
Cell: (330) 592-3111
Tribe Rep Zach Grant, ICS #15515*
Indianapolis, IN 46214
Cell: (317) 201-4293
(Email preferred contact)

Mid States:

Tribe Chief/Tribe Rep Carl M Talkington, ICS #3208*

180 Peregrine Circle
Broomfield CO 80020-1275
Ph: (303) 460-8127
Cell: (720) 560-4862


Ron Keil, ICS #7001

1135 Christine Dr.
Lapeer, MI 48446
Ph: (810) 406-2065
Cell: (810) 834-0168

CFF President:
(Non-voting ICS Board member)
Mike Foster, ICS #14077
970 Flightline Dr.
Spring Branch, Texas 78070
Cell: (210) 701-6795


Pat Donovan, ICS #12246, MS Tribe

421 Piper Ct.
Troy, MO 63379
Phone: (636) 462-8370


E. Canada:

Tribe Rep Bill Case, ICS #16889*

P.O. Box 549
Lebanon OR 97355
Ph: (541) 259-5557
Cell: (503) 260-2473


South Central:

S. Africa:

Tribe Chief Dennis Springer, ICS #10237

4796 Drew St. N.E.
Salem, OR 97305
Ph: (503) 390-9444

Tribe Chief/Tribe Rep Bob Fox, ICS #13650*

1630 W 35th North St.
Muskogee OK 74401
Cell: (918) 607-6880

W. Canada:

Tribe Chief/Tribe Rep Ken Mori, ICS #3894*

1433 Copper Mountain Court
Vernon BC V1B 3Y7 Canada
Ph: 250-545-2491 (home)

Tribe Chief/Tribe Rep Tim Stain, ICS #168357*

Laurier Avenue
Toronto ON M4X 1S2 Canada
Ph: (647) 341-9100 (home)
Tribe Chief/Tribe Rep Kate Burrows, ICS #17285*
Ramsey Road, Rockwood
Laxey, Isle of Mann IM4-7PY United Kingdom
Ph: 44 1624 861957 (h)
Tribe Chief/Tribe Rep Russell Knowles, ICS #16469*
Box 1114, Halfway House
1685 South Africa
Ph/Fax: +27 11 8052902
Cell: +27827809228


Tribe Chief/Tribe Rep George Mills*

Panshanger P.O. Box 269
Longford, TAS 7301 Australia
Ph: +03-6397-6500


Tribe Chief Craig Varga, ICS #12906

1365 S. Reed Rd.
Chino Valley, AZ 86323-6598
Ph: (928) 899-4139
Cell: (928) 899-4139
Tribe Rep Scott Myers, ICS #16819*
1041 Jasmine Ct.
Vista, CA 92081
Ph: (760) 727-7444 (w)
Cell: (760) 519-8604

* Member ICS Board of Directors

12 Comanche Flyer

2013-14 ICS Standing Committees & Chairpersons:

Historical Chair: Bruce Thumann, SC
Information Technology Chair:
Dave Fitzgerald, NC
Technical Resources Chair:
Zach Grant, NC
Finance & Budget Chair:
Pat Donovan, MS
Bylaws, Standing & Special Rules Chair:
Chair: Scott Myers, CA
Don Nelson, WA
Nominating Chair: Dave Fitzgerald, NC
Nominating Committee:
Ken Mori, WC
Dennis Springer, NW
Bruce Thumann, SC

Flagship Chair:
Cliff Wilewski, NC
Elections Chair: Sally Williams, SE
Editorial Review Chair:
Bob Cretney, SC
Editorial Committee:
Pat Donovan, MS
Dave Fitzgerald, NC
Zach Grant, NC
Bernie Mazurek, SE
Hank Spellman, NC
Fleet Airworthiness Chair:
Dave Fitzgerald, NC
Annual Convention Chair:
Shirley Nelson, NW

MAY 2015


The International Comanche Society (ICS) publishes this list in the spirit of member information. The opinions, statements
and claims made by the Advisors are their own and not those of the International Comanche Society (ICS). ICS assumes no
responsibility for any actions between its members and the listed Advisors. It is incumbent upon the member, when using
this list of Advisors, to do due diligence in researching and selecting an Advisor.

Pat Barry

Karl Hipp

Ph: (949) 362-1600 on Pacific Time


Ph: (970) 963-3755


Dave Clark

Lucky Louque

Ph: (817) 860-4393


Zach Grant

Cell: (317) 201-4293

(Email preferred contact)

Ph: (903) 345-9198


Cliff Wilewski

Ph: (815) 395-0500, Cell: (815) 979-7785




Take advantage of Maurices expert knowledge, captured on these

professionally produced videos. Great tools for mechanics, too.
Program 1: Preflight Walk-around
Program 2: Tech Tips: A Closer Look
Program 3: Comanche Landing Gear
Program 4: Single Comanche Flight Tips
Program 5: Twin Comanche Flight Tips
(Programs 1-3 apply to both the single and twin models.)

All five programs on one DVD.

DVD each $59.00 plus shipping (North America $8.00, elsewhere $14.00)
VHS and PAL tapes are no longer available

Into the Wind: The Story of Max Conrad by Sally Buegeleisen
Enjoy this account of the life and feats of legendary pilot Max Conrad,
including his record setting flights in our own Comanche N110LF. pb, 264 pp.
Price: $21.50 plus shipping (North America: $8.00; elsewhere: $15.00)

PA-30 & Multi-Engine Flying by Alice S. Fuchs. pb, 68 pp.

Price $9.00 plus shipping (North America: $5.00; elsewhere: $7.00)

These merchandise purchases and/or your donations can be

made through CFF on the ICS website with either a credit
card or our newly availabe PayPal option. Please visit:

Mail to: CFF c/o Shirley Nelson,

925 Ludwick Avenue, Blaine, WA 98230-5109
Telephone: 360-671-7388

Enclose check or money order made payable to CFF.

Certified flight instructors who have
completed a Comanche training program.

The International Comanche Society, Inc. (ICS) publishes this

list in the spirit of member information. The opinions, statements and claims made by the instructors are their own and
not those of the International Comanche Society (ICS). The
listed CFIs have undergone a Comanche-specific Training
Program. ICS assumes no responsibility for any actions
between its members and the listed CFIs. It is incumbent upon
the member, when using this list of instructors, to do due
diligence in researching and selecting a qualified instructor
for the type of training desired.

Bill Archer - AZ (Phoenix/Mesa)

Single/Twin, (480) 203-3043
Dennis R. Carew WI
Twin & Single, (920) 749-9558
Malcolm Dickinson - CT/NY
Single & Twin, (203) 698-2600
Zach Grant - IN (Indianapolis)
Single/Twin, (317) 201-4293
William Harris VA
Single & Twin, (540) 731-4772
Craig Mussman - IL
Single/Twin, (815) 450-3692
Donny Nelson - WA
Single/Twin, (360) 305-0689
Myron Oakley - IL
Twin only, (815) 985-7894
George Richmond - NE (Omaha)
Single and Twin, (402) 350-1915
Steve Smith - MT
Single/Twin, (406) 425-0754
Mike Stich - OH
Single/Twin, (330) 283-1857
Todd Underwood - AZ (Phoenix/Prescott)
Single/Twin, (623) 202-6910
Larry Whitbeck - IL
Single only
Cell: (217) 737-6074
Office: (217) 732-9704
Kristin Winter - CA (Northern)
Single & Twin, (707) 477-4727
Steve Zaboji VA
Single & Twin, (571) 228-3420


Matt Kurke

8192 Sanctuary Drive, Unit 1

Naples, FL 34104
Ph: (239) 593-6944

MAY 2015

Comanche Flyer


From the Comanche Website Maintenance Forum


d like to seek some advice on the

subject of starters.

Background: While my 1968

PA-30B has been modernized in many
ways, I believe I still have the original starters (Prestolite ... Ive read on
the forums) which as I understand it
uses an old and somewhat complicated
mechanical mechanism for engaging
and disengaging the starter invented
by Mr. Bendix, before the advent of
electro-mechanical solenoids for the
same job (which came about in cars in
the 60s but did not make it into our
airplanes of the same era).
Ive owned the plane for a bit over
two years now and have had no real
problems with the starters except ...
occasionally (and now becoming more
consistently with the last 5-6 starts) Ive
noticed that if I try to start the right
engine first, I hear a click as if a relay
or solenoid is engaging to send power
to the starter but nothing happens.
There is no movement of the prop, no
starter noise, nothing. So I start the left
engine (my normal practice anyway but
sometimes I switch it up), and once
the left alternator is on and bus voltage goes from 12.x volts to 14.2 volts
14 Comanche Flyer

I then try again and presto! The right

engine cranks just fine. The past 5-6
times it has happened the way I just
described, but on occasion Ive also had
it happen differently ... Ive started the
left just fine and then nothing on the
right ... or perhaps I crank it but dont
start, try again and nothing ... wait 15
seconds and then it works.
Now my problem described above
may not be the right starter at all but
the solenoid that distributes power
to the starters when the switch is
pressed. It may be that the right side
is sticking and once the left engine has
started the higher voltage on the bus
plus the vibration from the left engine
running is enough to unstick the right
side more investigation to be done.
All that said ... Im going to start my
annual at the beginning of March and
I thought I might as well replace the
starters. I thought about doing it back
when I did the alternators but elected
not to as I felt my starters were working fine at the time.
In looking at the current problem
behavior starting and replacing starters,
two inquiries I wish to address:

1) Replacement starter model advice/

2) Aircraft wiring
First, starters...
Having read many posts on the
forums, I am aware that B&C starters
are available as are Sky-Tec. Ive also
seen ads for both in the Flyer but more
recently for the Sky-Tec. Ive also found
on line a Kelly Aerospace E-Drive that
may be available (not sure). All this
said, I think I will go Sky-Tec because:
a) they advertise in the Flyer, and b)
from what Ive read they are a straight
replacement with no mods to anything
required. I read a post about B&Cs
requiring some sort of mod to fit in the
cowl or similar.
In Sky-Tecs Fit Guide on pages
18-19, it shows that the replacement
starter for the PA-30 is the 149-12XLT
and for the PA-39 its the 149-NL on
the left engine and the 149-NLR on
the right engine. Id read on this ICS
thread that Pat has the NL starters on
her PA-39 and is happy with them.
You can see the various models for
Lycoming engines at www.skytecair.
com/Lycoming.htm. Decoding the
MAY 2015

nomenclature ... XLT and NL are starter

models. The 149 refers to the number
of teeth on the engine flywheel that the
starter engages with, and the 12 of
course refers to 12 volts.
I called Sky-Tec yesterday at 800476-7896 and spoke to a tech named
Rich who was extremely helpful, personable, and interesting to talk with.
I was sure to tell him (and others at
Sky-Tec I talked to before getting hold
of Rich) that Id seen their ad in the
Flyer and if I bought starters would get
theirs because of their support for the
ICS thru Flyer advertising.
Rich told me that the XLT model is
the recommended model for my PA-30.
Its their newest and lightest starter at
only 6.5 lbs each. He described it as
the Ferrari of their starter models
(though happily its not their most
expensive). I asked about the NL starter
as well and Rich confirmed that could
also be used on the PA-30 even though
its not listed in their fit guide for the
PA-30. He told me the the reason the
NL is listed in their fit guide for the
PA-39 is that its the only starter they
offer in a counter-rotating configuration
(the NLR for the right engine).
Given the NL and XLT are BOTH
options for the PA-30 I pulled the
thread further on the pros and cons...
Lightest at only 6.5lbs each
Spins the prop very quickly (4x
faster than stock apparently) not
sure thats an advantage per-se
Requires at least 10v in the battery
to work. Smaller starters crank
faster and require more draw. Less
than 10v and it wont even try, he
told me.
Somewhat less tolerant of frequent
starts and long cranking
Less expensive at $359 each
Note: Because of the last two bullets,
for bush pilots they do not recommend
their flyweight XLT starters. He told me
that if I was buying for a plane in my
charter fleet with frequent start duty
cycles he would recommend NL; but
MAY 2015

for my PA-30 as a personal plane he

recommended XLT.
Slightly more weight at 9.3lbs each
vs. XLT but still much less weight
than stock Prestolite
Does not spin prop as fast as XLT
but still faster than stock Prestolite
(not sure it matters)
Will start with as little as 7v in the
More tolerant of frequent cycles and
will take more abuse than the XLT
More expensive at $431 each
With all the above said, Im torn. I
like the idea of minimum weight and I
think the XLT would be more reliable
and modern than what I have now,
and for my purposes would be heavyduty enough. So why spend extra and
carry more weight? On the flip side
I bought a PA-30 in the first place
in part because of the super reliable
IO-320-B1A engines, and reliability is
what Im usually after. I already have
enough useful load for full fuel, my
entire family, AND 170 lbs of baggage
(more than I can fit) so Im not critical on weight ... therefore, even if 6lbs
heavier for two, the NL may be the
better way to go.
Id appreciate thoughts and feedback, especially from those of you that
have NL or XLT Sky-Tec starters. As an
aside Ill mention that I have Sky-Tec
ST-3 and ST-5 starters in Cirrus charter
aircraft and overall theyve been good;
but I did have one ST-5 completely fail
out of the blue with no warning. It was
replaced under warranty and we had
a good customer service experience.
Now on to the subject of wiring...
Its recommended to replace aluminum wiring with copper wiring for
newer starters and especially the super
lightweight ones like the XLT. Rich at
Sky-Tec told me that I might get away
with aluminum wiring but copper was
much better. He said the issue with
aluminum is not the wires themselves
but the crimped terminals at the ends,
which are copper. The crimps tend to

have higher resistance due to galling

of dissimilar metals and the fact that
aluminum does not crimp well (so he
said). Rich also said that they (Sky-Tec)
recommend Bogert battery boxes and
wiring kits as a first step. Happily I
already have a new Bogert battery box
with a Concorde RG-35AXC AGM battery that has been awesome. I ordered
this with the Bogert Copper Battery
cables (but thats just the two leads
from the battery box; not all the heaving wiring for the whole plane). Last
year I added the Plane-Power TAL12-70 alternators so theres plenty of
juice once an engine is running but that
doesnt help starting the first engine.
After I bought my plane and had the
pre-buy/first annual done I asked about
the wiring and was told they thought it
was copper (going from memory). But
when we did the battery box we noticed
all the existing heavy duty wiring
(alternator/starter/GPU connection,
etc.) looked like it was probably original. It almost looks like its in a woven
fabric sheath and stamped on it says
AL-1. I assume that the AL stands
for aluminum and I think (looking for
verification here) that all the original
wiring of this type in our aircraft was
in fact aluminum, not copper. Also the
actual wires under the sheathing look
aluminum in color, not a copper color.
However, the thing that throws me off
slightly is that the metal connectors at
the ends of the new Bogert cables are
also not a copper color it is also a
whitish, aluminum-looking metal even
though I know they are copper cables.
Anyway Im about 95%+ sure that my
current alternator and starter cables are
aluminum original and Id appreciate any
comments/confirmation on this especially based on the info above. If thats the
case I think Ill order the full Bogert kit
minus the battery cables, which I already
have. I see Bogert also has an option for
slightly longer cables when using the
flyweight starters. Ive read posts where
others installing smaller starters found
the wiring a little short so Ill discuss with
Bogert to try and avoid that.
(continued on page 17)

Comanche Flyer


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16 Comanche Flyer

MAY 2015

So ... thanks for reading and sorry

for the long post (perhaps typical for
me). Id appreciate any thoughts or
advice on any of this, especially regarding experience with NL or XLT starters
from Sky-Tec and the wiring.
We replaced the left starter on our
PA-30 with a Hartzell X-Drive. I have
them on (now) four of the aircraft in
our fleet with no issues at all. Weve
had Sky-Tec on one of the planes and
it didnt last as long as the OEM starter
it replaced.

From rugged, reliable trainers to a highperformance turboprop, Piper creates the

freedom of flight for everyone. A Hartzell Top
Prop performance propeller conversion will
create even better performance, smoother
operation and less noise for your Piper aircraft.

I do have a B&C on our DA-20 and

can speak very highly of their customer
service. We had a kick back a few years
ago and sheared the gear shaft off. B&C
rebuilt it and overnighted it back for
less than a couple hundred bucks
instead of having to spend money on
an entirely new starter.
Sounds like X Drive is, in fact, STCd
for PA-30 which is great to hear. Ill
look into that option. Which model of
Sky-Tec did you have problems with?
Two quick questions:
1) Do all four of the aircraft you have
with Hartzell starters have X-Drive
or are some E-Drive?

3-blade ASC-II advanced

structural composite scimitars
for Mirage/Matrix
2- and 3-blade conversions for
Piper singles and light twins

2) On your PA-30 with X-Drive I

assume you used model SRZ-9031?
Did you find it was a straight bolt up
replacement or was any modification to the aircraft required to make
figment work?
Anyone else with Sky-Tec, B&C, or
X-Drive care to comment? Its great
to have so many options but I am now
leaning towards doing nothing at all
at the annual (unless I do confirm a
bad Prestolite starter) until I do more
research on the best choice.
I have had B&C starters on Twin
for over 20 years and have not had any
problems with them. They work, last
a long time.
MAY 2015

Experience the
Hartzell Difference
Contact us at 800-942-7767

Do you recall if any modification

was required to the aircraft or engine
to get the B&C to fit? A member comment from an earlier thread: As for the
B&C, I do recall that Bob and the boys
from WEBCO had to use a metal grinder
on some part of either the airframe or
engine casing ... I note that this member
has a single engine Comanche not a
Twin. So I am curious if the B&C is
a straight replacement with no mods
required on the Twin PA-30.

Absolutely would go to the copper
wiring Mom did this long ago so it has
done well for well over three decades.
We continue to be happy with our
existing Sky-Tecs. No experience with
the new stuff so I wont comment.
Did replace the solenoids when
access was easy during some repairs
just because they were original and
they were accessible ... and pretty
cheap as I recall.
Comanche Flyer


No question on the copper wiring
and regarding the solenoids, I assume
you mean the originals? Ive read about
starters with internal vs. separate external solenoids. From what I read on your
other posts its the Sky-Tec NL starters
you have, correct? I think those are
more robust than the lighter XLTs from
what Sky-Tec tells me.
Yes, NL and NLR have been on 22G
for a while now. No troubles.
Copper cables and Sky-Tecs on
my PA30 for about 15 years. Never a
problem. They spin the props almost
fast enough to taxi.
Do you know which model of SkyTec starters you have? If they are 15
years old I am guessing you have the
NL starters? The XLTs are the newest/
smallest/lightest, but I think the NLs
are a bit tougher.
I believe I have the NL on my 250.
And the copper cables. Darn good
Update on this thread ... Ive been
looking into Hartzell E-Drive and
X-Drive starters. While both are listed
for the PA-30 in their application chart,
it turns out only the E-Drive is actually PMA approved for the IO-320-B1A
engine. The E-Drive starter is PMA
approved for the -B1A engine but the
X-Drive starter is not.
I called Hartzell for an engine tech
and spoke with Tommy in their tech
support and he confirmed this. Only
the E-Drive is PMA for the IO-320B1A. The X-Drive may fit but would
not be a straight legal replacement
without a field approval. He also commented that he felt of the two the
E-Drive was the better starter. He
said they use the same motor (E and
X drive) but the E-Drive is built stronger and has a ratchet system in the
18 Comanche Flyer

drive mechanism to prevent damage

from a kick back during starting. It
is, however, heavier than the X drive
and Sky-Tec options (but only 0.2lbs
heavier than the Sky-Tec NL).
I talked to Hartzell today and they
think they could actually just have
a documentation problem on their
end (which would not be a first.) The
SRZ-9031 is the same starter as the
SRZ-9021 (which is PMA approved), the
solenoid is just on the opposite side for
applications like the PA-30/39 which,
as you pointed out, are clearly listed
on their aircraft applicability chart. Im
sending them the info we have and they
plan to get back to me early next week
with a clarification.
Thats great news. FWIW I suggested
to them that it might be a documentation issue. The guy I talked to said it
wasnt but I pointed out they have the
X in the application guide and should
either get it on the PMA list or remove
it from the guide.
Thats funny. I talked to Tommy,
same guy. He barely recalled talking
to you ... lol. Hes kicking it up to their
folks that handle their PMA process
to review.
It was a short call (the one I had)
and in fairness he called me back in
between other calls he was returning. I
sensed he was pretty busy. Anyway the
real difference may be that I was calling
to inquire about what was approved
that I could buy, whereas you were
calling to say, Hey I already bought
this based on your eligibility list and
theres a paperwork problem to be
fixed. Hes got more of an incentive
to fix the paperwork given you relied
on their own starter guide in buying
the X-Drives.
I did point out to him the starter
guide vs. PMA discrepancy, but on the
call (that was actually my main reason I

called I was confused by what I read

on their site) he seemed to be more
focused on using the FAA website to
figure out what was PMA vs. his own
site. I kept trying to refer him to what
I was reading on the Hartzell site but
he kept telling me he was at
Go figure...
Well, yesterday I pulled the trigger
and picked up two new Sky-Tec 149-NL
starters. Today I ordered the full Bogert
copper cable kit for my PA-30 including the APU cable. I already have the
Bogert battery box and battery cables.
While were at it Im going to replace all
the alternator wiring too, so Bogert is
making up those for me as well.
While there appear to be three very
good starter brand options: Sky-Tec,
B&C and Hartzell (formerly Kelley
Aerospace). My decision came down
to the following:
1) While I had read a lot about problems with Sky-Tec starters on-line,
as I dug further, in 99% of the cases
the problems were with the super
light flyweight starters and not the
heavy-duty high torque NL model.
2) Everyone I talked to with NLs was
happy. A local flight school here at
HEF has gone to them exclusively,
and over a number of years has had
great success.
3) At a local engine shop, I have a
personal connection to someone
who has an excellent reputation
and has been building engines for
(I think) 30 years, puts NLs on ALL
their new engine builds, and says
they have never had one come back
with a problem.
4) I never called B&C but between
Hartzell and Sky-Tec I found SkyTec to be much more informative,
engaging, and helpful on the phone.
This is not intended as a knock on
Hartzell they were very pleasant
to deal with, I just found Sky-Tec
to be far more engaging and enthusiastic about their product.
MAY 2015

5) Sky-Tec supports the ICS thru

advertising in the Flyer.
6) I compared the Sky-Tec NL to the
Hartzell E-Drive. They seem pretty
comparable. The E-Drive has a
clever clutch system that is designed
to handle a kickback should one
occur. If a kickback occurs the
clutch protects the starter and the
flywheel, and Hartzell actually offers
a warranty that includes kickback
protection (the only manufacturer
that does, I think). The E-Drive is
slightly more expensive and slightly
heavier (negligibly so) than the SkyTec NL. By contract the Sky-Tec NL
simply has a shear pin in the drive
a designed weak point. If a kickback were to occur, the shear pin
would break before anything else.
The flight school in #2 above said
they couldnt remember ever having
to replace a shear pin. While there
is a first time for everything (knock
on wood), Ive never had a kickback
and I am adamant about keeping
mag time perfect. On the Cirrus we
have starter adapters between the
starter and the engine. Its not quite
the same as the Hartzell clutch but
it acts in a similar way and weve
had routine problems with the
Continental starter adapters and
found them expensive to replace.
So, all the above said, I am a fan of
simple and the simple shear pin
approach appealed to me over the
clutch system idea. Though if I end
up breaking a shear pin on a trip, I
am sure I will wish I had the E-Drive
... this brings me to one last point.
7) I spoke with a number of maintenance shops and all of them stock
Sky-Tec NL starters. The ones I
spoke to stocked nothing else (no
other brands). So safety in numbers. If I did need a new starter in
the field (shear pin or complete
starter) Id be more likely to find
a spare Sky-Tec at the local FBO
or repair station.
MAY 2015

So I think that there is no wrong

decision here; but I decided to go with
the Sky-Tec NLs.
As always, good research and thanks
for sharing your thought process. Im
also a fan of the Sky-Tec business
attitude. I especially like their troubleshooting website advice saved me
from bad advice on how to fix a problem
once from a non-Clifton mechanic.
Thanks, and yes, I should also comment that I found Sky-Tecs website
the most helpful and informative of
the bunch. Oh ... one other detail ... Id
read a lot from B&C about how they
use ball bearings instead of needle bearings by comparison to Sky-Tec and
Hartzell. I then learned from Sky-Tecs
website that while the very lightweight
starters from Sky-Tec (and I assume
Hartzell) do use needle bearings, the
NL Starters also use ball bearings. I am
guessing (but dont know for sure) that
the Hartzell E-Drive does as well just
because they seem so similar to the
Sky-Tec NLs in design.
These postings are provided
for informational purposes only.
The views expressed in these postings
represent the opinions of individual
Comanche owners and have not
been vetted by the ICS technical
As a responsible pilot and aircraft
owner, you should always seek advice
from an experienced, trusted source,
such as your A&P or CFF-trained CFI,
before applying any of the techniques
or recommendations presented in
these postings.
The postings are printed as they
appeared. Due to space considerations, sometimes only selected posts
have been published.

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Comanche Flyer



Carb Heat =
Cost Savings

by Richard Koehler

he premise of this article is, in some cases, that adding

carb heat will give you a more efficient engine. Oops,
this is counter to everything you have been taught
about engine management, but it is true. Let me explain,
but before starting I should clarify that this situation only
applies to carbureted engines. All you guys with fuel injection
do not need to read further, unless you are just interested
in the subject.
There are two critical technical issues that apply: First,
fuel must be atomized in order to burn. The low vapor
pressure of our 100LL fuel makes this particularly difficult,
particularly in cold weather. Warming the fuel will help it
atomize. The second issue is air-to-fuel ratio. It can be shown
by chemical analysis that the theoretically perfect ratio would
be 15 pounds of air to one pound of 100LL (stoichiometric
mixture). However, the mixture will still burn if it is as lean
as about 17:1 or as rich as about 10:1. Outside this range,
combustion will not occur. This is the science behind the
old bar trick of putting out the burning match in a saucer
of (cold) lighter fluid.

20 Comanche Flyer

With that science behind us, lets look at the reality of a

typical carbureted induction system. They are notoriously
bad at providing an even air/fuel mixture to all cylinders.
Some cylinders are leaner and some are richer. Since stoichiometric at 15:1 is closer to the lean limit of 17:1 than the
rich limit of 10:1, most carbureted induction systems are
set up to operate around 12:1. Some cylinders will be richer
than this, and some leaner. Anything that can be done to
make this distribution of mixtures more even will result in
a smoother running and more efficient engine. This is why
fuel injection usually makes a much more even running
engine compared to its carbureted equivalent.
The reason the carbureted engine is so bad in its air/
fuel distribution is because of the nature of the carburetor
itself. The fuel discharge nozzle in the throat of the carb
literally dumps raw liquid fuel into the airstream at that
point. Yes, most carburetors do have an air bleed system
that also introduces air into the discharge nozzle in an effort
to promote fuel atomization, but it doesnt help much and
is less effective at lower power levels than at full power. As
MAY 2015

a result, you will see a more uneven air/fuel distribution at

cruise than at full power.
The best way to measure the evenness of the air/fuel mixture is to look at the evenness of the exhaust gas temperatures
(EGTs) of the cylinders. There are other factors at work here
that can affect the EGT readings, but the biggest is the air/fuel
ratio at each cylinder. The energy extracted from the air/fuel
charge in each cylinder can be directly correlated to the EGT
for each cylinder. Obviously, you ideally want all EGTs to be
the same. If they are not, then the cylinders are generating different amounts of energy. This can lead to engine vibrations,
uneven wear in the engine, and less than optimum power output.

eer Pilots Needed

Some engines are better about even EGTs, and some

are worse. Perhaps the worst engine in common use is
the Continental O-470 found in most Cessna 182s. The
carburetor mounts low and near the aft of the engine, with
for the environment
since 1979.
an immediate Y coming out of the carb leading to a long
tubular manifold that goes all the way forward past each of
the three cylinders on each side. There is a small diameter
cross-over tube in the front that supposedly helps to balance the flow to the cylinders, but the reality is that the
back cylinders tend to run rich and the front ones lean.
h Horizontal
EGT splits of as much as 300 degrees are not uncommon.
Lycoming took another approach to their induction system
by mounting the carb on the bottom of the normally hot oil
sump and running the induction tubes through the oil sump.
Not only helping to cool the oil, this arrangement results in

the warm tube walls aiding in fuel vaporization. The negative

of this is that the warmed induction air has a slightly lower
density, and hence less power.
I have found that by adding a bit of carb heat I get better
vaporization, both by warming the carb itself, and warming
the air. Yes, there is a density loss, but the more even EGTs
allow more aggressive leaning and adjustment of the engine
for smoother power. Take a look at the photos of the JPI-930
on my Mooney: The image on the left shows with enough carb
heat to have a carb air temperature (CAT) of 70F. Note that
the EGTs are within 100 degrees of each other. The image
on the right is a few minutes later with all carb heat removed
and a CAT of about 30F. Note the EGTs are now 232 degrees
apart and the fuel flow has increased from 8.6 gph to 10.0 gph.
Because the air density of the charge is cooler, the manifold
pressure has increased from 23.5 to 23.7 inches, and the
power output of the engine increased 1% from 73 to 74. So,
16% more fuel only gave 1% more power, or put another way,
adding the carb heat smoothed out the air/fuel mixture so
well that I was able to reduce fuel consumption by 14% for
only a 1% reduction in power, and the engine ran smoother.
I suggest you try this little trick next time you are out on
cross country. At the price of fuel these days, a 14% savings
is considerable.
Hope this little discussion helps you with flying your

Volunteer Pilots

Volunteers flying for the environment

since 1979.

Phone: 307-332-3242
MAY 2015


Comanche Flyer



Formerly Published And Produced by the late Douglas L. Killough

Piper Aircraft ceased production of the Comanche and Twin Comanche in 1972,
several years before the General Aviation Manufacturers Association (GAMA)
established specifications for the contemporary Pilots Operating Handbook (POH).
As a result, the Owners Handbook published by Piper is incomplete by modern
standards. Now available EXCLUSIVELY from the INTERNATIONAL COMANCHE
SOCIETY, INC., through its licensed agents, is the upgraded Pilots Operating
Handbook and FAA approved GAMA format Airplane Flight Manual.
Discounted to current ICS members at $75.00 each, plus shipping (must
ask for ICS member discount and provide ICS membership number when
placing order). Available only through Webco Aircraft at 316-283-7929 or Available Bound or Unbound/Un-punched.
There are SIXTEEN different GAMA format manuals
available for the Piper Single and Twin Comanche.
Please order your manual by Manual Number 1-16
from the chart below.


WWW.WEBCOAIRCRAFT.COM. Specify Bound or Unbound/Un-punched.





Flight Manual
Report Number



































1220 (FI)














1333 (Carb)











Not Avail





1358 (Carb)














1640 (Turbo)






















1269 (Turbo)




1515 (Turbo)





22 Comanche Flyer














1605 (Turbo)

MAY 2015

Cluster Gauges
S.W., AC, Rochester


Fuel Senders


ALH-001 & ALH-002
MODELS PA24, 30, & 39 SER.



Airspeed Indicator





Heater Overhauls

Oil Temp Conversion Kits

The ONLY STC approved kit on the market
Use the New Rochester Probe with your
AC Gauge


STC Oil Temperature Coupler Kit, ALH-I-005

Approved for Piper Models PA-23 PA-24 PA-30-39

WE OVERHAUL P/N 21286-000


1084 East Water Street, Hangar #3 Piper Airport, Lock Haven, PA 17745
Phone 1-800-443-3117 or 1-570-748-0823 Fax 1-570-748-1786
Web Site: E-MAIL:

F.A.A. Certified Repair Station VI4R597M

Custom Engine Overhaul

The top-rated shop AGAIN!

Aviation Consumer July 2013


Call L.J. or Herman


Website: E-mail:

ICS 12289 PA-30 N808N

MAY 2015

Comanche Flyer



Can Stock Photo Inc. / YURKAIMMORTAL

by LaVerne Stroh

the registration and hotel information

again so you dont have to search for it.
You can register three different ways:
Cut out and send in the registration form located in this edition
of the Flyer.
Fill out, print, and send in the electronic version of the registration
form by going to the 2015 ICS
Convention section of the ICS
Register online using the link in the
2015 ICS Convention section of
the ICS website.
Located in Vinita, OK, is a McDonald's bridge-restaurant built over the top
of Interstate 44 and is considered the world's largest McDonald's restaurant
in terms of area.

ime is flying by and we only

have one more month before
the Convention. For those
of you who will be flying
your Comanches to the convention,
we decided this would be a good time
to provide more information about
Sundance Airport. We are praying for
great flying weather for everyone!
24 Comanche Flyer

We will also give you more information about the seminars and exhibitors.
Of course, it is subject to change since
we are relying on so many factors to
get everyone here.
I hope you have sent in your
registration already, and are in the
process of finalizing your plans to visit
Oklahoma City. If not, we are providing

Weve had some inquiries from a few

people who can come to the convention
on Friday and Saturday only. Since the
convention cost is all-inclusive, they
were hoping we could cut the rate a bit
for the two-day stay. We want everyone to be able to attend and enjoy the
seminars, exhibitors, and other aspects
of the convention. In order to accommodate everyone who wants to attend,
we are offering a two-day-only rate for
Friday and Saturday the registration
fee will be $325. You will need to fill
out and send in the paper registration
MAY 2015


Can Stock Photo Inc. / YURKAIMMORTAL

form with a check or money order.

As you are completing it, please write
Two Days Only at the top, then cross
out $475 and write in $325. When you
have finished the rest of the registration form, remember to mark your meal
and activities selections for Friday and
Saturday. The designation at the top will
bring the two-day-rate to our attention
when the registration form is processed.
Unfortunately, you will not be able to get
the two-day rate if you register online.
It would require a huge amount of time
to update the current registration form,
and there may be only a few who choose
to come for the weekend only and want
to register online.
If you have any problems or questions about the registration, you can
contact Linda Baker at (940) 683-4540
or via email:
As a reminder, the cost is all-inclusive (meals, snacks, gratuities, and
transportation) except for the meal
on Tribe Night and the three scheduled
tours: FAA, Oklahoma History Museum,
Oklahoma Outlet Mall. The tours not
included are the Water Taxi ride on
Tribe Night, the Botanical/Myriad
Gardens tour Friday morning, and the
Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum
tour on Saturday afternoon. Those are
optional, however the cost is minimal
with all being $10.00 or less. I know
many will be attending seminars on
Friday morning, but you will definitely

Downtown Vinita has historical buildings, antique & specialty shops, and
Clantons Caf which was featured on Food Networks Diners, Drive-Ins, and
Dives for its outstanding chicken fried steak.

(continued on page 27)

Aerial view of the governors infamous state-shaped swimming pool.

MAY 2015

Comanche Flyer


26 Comanche Flyer

MAY 2015

enjoy the Water Taxi ride and the Land

Run statues along the way. The Cowboy
and Western Heritage Museum has so
many things to see that you will probably wish you could have spent more
time there. Numerous pieces of art will
still be on display at the Prix de West art
exhibit and auction being held a week
or two before the convention.
Options for making hotel reservations:
Call the Marriott toll-free number
at 800-217-9905.
Call the Courtyard by Marriott
Hotel in Oklahoma City at (405)
Make your reservations online
using the link in the 2015 ICS
Convention section of the ICS
Be sure to tell them you are with
ICS or the International Comanche
Society. If you have any problem with
the hotel reservations, please contact
LaVerne or Chuck Stroh at (405) 3732627 or email them at clstroh@yahoo.
com. Please put ICS Convention in
the subject line of the email to help
identify it is a convention question.
We have updated the website with
the shirt information. The convention
shirts have been fashioned around the
colors of the Oklahoma State flag, specifically a brilliant blue. Pictures of
both the mens and womens shirts are
located in this issue (see below) as well
as on the ICS website in the 2015
Convention section. The convention
logo will be embroidered above the

pocket on the mens shirt. Since the

womens shirt does not have a pocket,
the logo will be placed left chest to
match the mens shirt. The logo will
also include state flag colors: white,
brown, yellow, and orange. The shirts
are made of a polyester-type material
that wicks moisture to keep you cool
in the heat and warm when its cold
(you may know it as Dri-FIT, MoistureWick, Sport-Wick, Cool-Dry, and other
similar names).
Now lets talk a bit about Sundance
Airport and Airport Day.
Sundance Airport was established
in 1944 and is located in the northwest
part of Oklahoma City, approximately
11 nautical miles from downtown. It
consisted of a sod landing strip with a
small hangar that was rented by a hobbyist to rebuild an old airplane. In 1984,
the City celebrated the opening of the
Sundance Airpark which included over
12 acres of concrete ramps, taxiways,
and the runway. The runway is 5,000
ft X 100 ft with a full-length parallel
taxiway. The airport now consists of
275 acres of land, so there are almost
180 acres available for expansion.


1933 Davis Street, Suite 221
San Leandro, CA 94577
Voice 510-282-9300, Fax 510-633-9355

In 2013 the new owner, Jerry

Hunter, purchased the airport and
changed the name to Sundance Airport
(although many still call it Sundance
Airpark, since that was its name for so
long). He recently put in a new concrete
tie-down area and is installing more
hangars. With the low fuel prices ($3.52
at the time of this writing), Sundance
The shirt is a durable Silk Touch
Performance Pocket Polo that wicks
moisture, resists snags and holds its
color for a look that lasts.
3.9-ounce, 100% cationic polyester knit
Self-fabric collar
Tag-free label
3-button placket with dyed-to-match
buttons on the mens shirt
Placket without buttons on the ladies
Left chest pocket on mens shirt
No pocket on ladies shirt
Set in, open cuff sleeves
Adult Sizes: S-4XL

MAY 2015

(continued on next page)

Comanche Flyer


Oklahoma Trivia continued:

The centerpiece of the Oklahoma City
governors mansion is a swimming pool
in the shape of the state of Oklahoma.
Oklahoma City owes its name to the
Native American Choctaw people, and
comes from the native words okla,
meaning people, and humma, meaning red, literally translating to red
Vinita is the oldest incorporated town
on Oklahoma Route 66 having been
established in 1871. It was the first
town in Oklahoma to enjoy electricity. Originally named Downingville,
the towns name was later changed to
Vinita, in honor of Vinnie Ream, the
sculptress who created the life-size
statue of Lincoln at the United States
The Amateur Softball Association of
America a volunteer-driven, not-forprofit organization based in Oklahoma
City was founded in 1933 and has
evolved into the strongest softball
organization in the country.
Clinton Riggs designed the YIELD sign.
It was first used on a trial basis in Tulsa.
Oklahomas state bird, the ScissorTailed Flycatcher, is a somewhat quiet
bird with beautiful plumage and a long
sleek tail that is twice as long as its
body. The deeply-forked tail resembles
a pair of scissors.
Oklahomas state wildflower, the Indian
Blanket, is red with yellow tips. It symbolizes the states scenic beauty as well
as its Indian heritage. The wildflower
blooms in June and July.

is now a stop for many small jets and military helicopters, as well as
numerous general aviation airplanes.
Additional airport information you might find useful:
1,193 feet above sea level
Identifier: KHSD
Unicom: 122.7
Sectional Chart: Dallas-Ft Worth
ARTCC: Forth Worth Center
FSS: McAlester Flight Service Station
Runway: 17/35
GPS, VOR, and 35 localizer approach (at the time of this writing, the
17 VASI and localizer are out of service).
All traffic is to the west of the airport to stay out of Wiley Posts and
Will Rogers airspace. Right traffic for 17/left traffic for 35.
You can find complete airport information at
airport/KHSD. There is a link to the information in the 2015 convention section on the ICS website.
Since we live about a mile from the airport and our Comanche is
hangared there, we have been visiting with the Sundance employees and
manager on a regular basis. They have a nice lounge area where you can
relax a bit before your ride to the hotel. They added a new sunroom last
year, and it is where most of the locals hang out, share stories, tell tall
tales, and talk about airplanes.
They are currently in the process of updating another section of the
FBO, so we should have a nice new area for you to get a snack and drink,
along with taking care of the other things after your flight. They are also

28 Comanche Flyer

MAY 2015

busy finishing about 40 new hangars. It is a busy place, but

they are anxious to have us and are doing what they can to
make sure everyone has a good experience at the airport.
Weve been discussing ways to meet your needs to ensure
you have a great all-over experience. Having attended many
conventions and made stops at numerous FBOs over the years,
we have run into an issue or two along the way; especially if
there are shift changes, the staff gets busy, or they forget what
we asked for, etc. To make sure no one encounters those types
of miscommunications, we worked with Sundance to develop
a short request form that includes most of the information
and services you might need. The form is entitled Sundance
Service Request and is located in the 2015 Convention
section on the ICS website. You can either print/fill out and
bring it with you, or complete it after you arrive. There will
be a supply of forms at the front desk in the FBO. Just let
them know you are attending the convention.
We also need to remind you to bring your tie downs, and
anchors in case we have to have a few airplanes in the grass
area. There is a lot of ramp space, but they do not have tie
downs available. There is no tie-down fee.
Also as a reminder, if you want your airplane in a hangar
while you are here, please let us know ahead of time if possible. The hangar space is on a first come first serve basis, so

ICS Convention

25. Does the visit involve

a. Sensitive Security

the exchange of any of

the following categorie
s of unclassifi
___ ed informatio

b. Product ____
or system
c. Viewing, disclosure,
or release of object code?
d. Discussion of
changes to software?

e Viewing, disclosure,
or releasePhone #
gency Contact of source code?
tion of technical docume
Tail # ________
g. Mainten
ance training?
1. Visitor
h. Other (describe/explain

Fuel: Y or N


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All of the necessary forms for the 2015 Convention

can be found on the ICS website.
(continued on next page)

MAY 2015

Comanche Flyer


More Will Roger Quotes:

A man only learns in two ways; one by reading, and the other by association with smarter people.
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from
bad judgment.
Advertising is the art of convincing people to spend money they dont
have for something they dont need.
Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
Do the best you can, and dont take life too serious.
People who fly into a rage always make a bad landing.
Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to
the town gossip.

those that have asked for a spot prior to

arrival will have first priority. You can
call Chuck or LaVerne Stroh at (405)
373-2627 or email them at: clstroh@ Hangar space is $25/night.
We are planning to have some local
pilots show off some of their unique
aircraft along with a special Comanche
you will definitely want to see.
Im sure most of you have heard
about Muncie Aviation doing a

Provides maximum protection
from disabling glare
Uses your existing mounts

As an optometrist and Comanche Owner, (ICS# 13091),

I wanted better sun visors for my Comanche, so I
obtained field approval for my anti-glare sun visors.
$10 plus S & H includes plans and 337 Field-Approved
paperwork. A perfect sample pair for your use as
a pattern to make your own is available for a $197
deposit, refundable IF returned within 15 days.
Call or email for details.

Dr. Steven A. DeGroff

DeGroff Aviation Technologies
150 Forest Park Drive
Berne, IN 46711
260-466-2848 fax: 260-589-2911
30 Comanche Flyer

complete renovation of Ed Peppers

Twin Comanche. What started out as
a small avionics upgrade led to a complete renovation. It has all of the latest
& greatest avionics, a panel upgrade
that included moving some switches to
make it more user friendly, and numerous other improvements. As with all
airplanes, just when they thought they
had the latest and best product, something new came out. We wont go into
detail since you can read all about the
background and renovation in an article by Steve Zaboji called, A Blistering
Lap in this edition of the Flyer. We
have set aside some time on Saturday
(Airport Day) for Ken Telhelm, the lead
technician, to talk about everything
that went in to the renovation, as well
as answering questions you may have
about Eds Comanche, and upgrades
you may be considering. Im told Ken
loves talking about the Comanche.
In the previous issue, we provided
a brief convention agenda. In this edition, wed like to give you a little more
information about the seminars and
On Thursday, June 18, we are planning on seminars in the morning. After
lunch we have the tour of the Federal
Aviation Administration (FAA) training
facility and the Outlet Mall excursion.
Well return to the hotel about 4:30 pm,
then head out for the water taxi ride and
lunch with your fellow tribe members.
Since the FAA training facility is
secured space and adjacent to the airport, there are special procedures to get
in. If you are a United States citizen,

you will need a picture ID such as a

drivers license, pilots license, etc. If
you are not a United States citizen,
a form will need to be filled out and
turned in ahead of time so they can
clear you to get on the facility. The form
is posted in the convention section on
the ICS website. Only items 1-18 need
to be completed. When you have finished, email it to:
We will get them to the FAA to ensure
everything is cleared prior to our visit.
On Friday, June 19, there will be
seminars all day, however, we will
make sure you get lunch. We expect
to end these seminars between 3:00
to 4:00pm. That time may vary due
to possible changes in the schedules,
additions, cancellations, etc.
There will also be a seminar on
Saturday, June 20 at the airport, which
will include Muncie Aviation talking
about and showing Ed Peppers newly
renovated twin Comanche.
Here are some of the planned seminars:
MT Propeller USA, Inc. is presenting information on their new three
blade composite propeller STC for
the PA-24 250/260 and the soon to
be approved three blade composite propeller STC for the PA-30/39.
They have seen great performance
increases in testing on all of the
Garmin will be discussing their
products, along with ADSB, and
how to equip for the 2020 ADSB
mandate. They will also talk about
using Garmin Pilot and Flightstream
versus using Stratus and Foreflight.
Dennis Falesco from Omega Aircraft
Services in Weatherford, OK will be
on hand to answer questions about
ADSB installation.
Concorde Battery will be present
the importance of battery maintenance and testing.
Dr. Silverman from the Federal
Aviation Administration will give a
presentation on getting you cardiovascular clearance (medical) after a
valve replacement, stents, or coronary artery bypass procedure.
Champion will discuss how spark
plugs and oil filters affect Comanche
MAY 2015

performance, and touch on some of

the specialty tools.
Aircraft Specialties will offer
information on Engines, Oils, and
Additives. They promise it will be
very informative.
Aspen will discuss the Aspen product line and interaction with ADSB.
GAMI will provide information on
their injectors and lean of peak
The exhibitors will be set up all day
Friday; you can come and go as you
please. Here is a list of attendees:
MT Propeller
Concorde Battery
Aircraft Specialties
Vantage Plane Plastics

We will have a few non-aviation

related exhibitors as well. So, you
should be able to find something youre
interested in.
All of the exhibitors planning to
attend are providing some very nice
door prizes. Aircraft Specialties is
donating several giveaways, including
cans of CamGuard. We also have door
prizes from several companies who
arent sure if they will be able to make
it to the convention. Some of those
are Knots 2U, Lo-Presti, Castrol, Great
Lakes Aero Products, and a few others.
We are still in contact with several
other potential exhibitors such as paint,
interior, oxygen, aviation parts, etc.
Our goal is to get an exhibitor for all
parts of the Comanche. It may be a
lofty objective, but were doing our best
to make it happen. We want this to be
a convention that has something for
everyone. From visiting with fellow
pilots to learning all about maintaining
and updating your Comanche. We are
looking forward to seeing old friends

and making new ones. For some, this

will be their first convention.
As was covered last month, if you
would like something to do other than
attending seminars and there is enough
interest (a minimum of 15 people),
we can set up a group event at Pinots
Palette after lunch on Friday. You will
be able to take home your own work
of art. The cost will be about $35 per
person. If you are interested, please
contact LaVerne Stroh at clstroh@ and refer to the Painting
Outing or something similar in the
subject line. If you prefer not to use
email, you can also call (405) 373-2627.
We will keep you informed of any
new exhibitors or updated convention
information in the next issue.

Heritage Aero, Inc.

Webco Aircraft is thankful for the
support the ICS and Comanche
owners have shown us over the years.
We look forward to 2015 offering the same
great quality parts, service and helpful
information we have become known for.
Best wishes for you and yours in 2015,
Bob Weber and your Comanche family
at Webco Aircraft

Your Midwest
Comanche Specialists
815-395-9044 (fax)
1651 Grumman Drive
Rockford, IL 61109
MAY 2015


1134 North Oliver Road, Hangar G
Newton, Kansas 67114
Comanche Flyer


Tips Manual

Ball Cap

Creech Manual
Gear DVD



Knit Polo

(light blue, mens with pocket, ladies no pocket, 65% poly, 35% cotton)

Polo Shirts (with pocket)

3 Button Placket Shirt

32 Comanche Flyer

Coffee Mugs

Decal, Patch

Stone Washed Denim Shirt

Lapel Pins

Mens Ultramarine Knit Polo Shirt

MAY 2015

Code Item
ICS11 Tips Manual

Price Qty Total


Easy to use, fold flat spiral bound, 365 pages.

Updated version due soon.
ICS23 Care and Maintenance of the Piper

Comanche Single (Creech Manual)





Donated by Maintenance Director and life-long member,

the late Bill Creech. Tips on care and maintenance of your
Single Comanche. 2013 edition revised by Cliff Wilewski

Landing Gear DVD

Watch complete gear removal from the airplane and

1000 hour gear AD performed and hosted by Hans
Neubert and George Mahurin. 2 hours.

ICS09 Mens White Polo Shirt with pocket


ICS14 Ladies Light Blue Knit Polo Shirt


Circle selection: Single S M L XL XXL

Circle selection: S M L XL XXL
Circle selection: Twin Both Single

ICS24 Mens Light Blue Knit Polo Shirt with pocket


ICS27 Mens Ultramarine Polo Shirt with Pocket

Circle selection: Single: S M L XL XXL


ICS28 Stone Washed Denim Shirt


ICS36 Mens (New Style) Light Blue Polo Shirt


ICS32 Ball Cap

Circle selection: Tan Blue
Circle selection: Twin Single


ICS34 Visor
Ultramarine (blue) Sun Visor with ICS logo.
Hook and loop type closure. 100% cotton.


Circle selection:
Circle selection:
Circle selection:

Single Twin
Long Sleeve Short Sleeve

Easy Care 60/40 cotton/poly blend, stain release, wrinkle

resistant, uv protection, curl free collar, 6.7 ounce, 3 button
placket, bone horn buttons, straight bottom, rib knit collar
& cuffs, reinforced side vents, taped neck & shoulders.

ICS26 Coffee Mug


ICS10 Lapel Pin


ICS05 Decals (price for 2)


ICS06 Cloth Patch


Circle selection: Single Twin

Circle selection: Single Twin Logo


USA Canada Foreign

Creech or Tips Manual $4.00 $16.00


Decal or Patch




Any Other Item

$5.50 $15.00




Circle selection:
Twin: S M L XL
Single: S XL


Michigan residents
please add 6% sales tax



Handling $6.00

Ship Order To:

ICS #:

A TOP RATED SHOP Aviation Consumer, July 2013

Street Address:



Card #

Exp. Date:

Order by mail, fax, phone or web:

International Comanche Society
P.O. Box 1810
Traverse City, MI 49685-1810

US: (888) 300-0082

Other: (231) 946-3712
Fax: (231) 946-6180
MAY 2015

Flat Rate Prop Strike Inspections and Repairs

Dynamic Propeller Balancing While You Wait

FAA Repair Station YYBR664L / EASA.145.6472

800-397-8181815-544-2300 e-mail:

11619 Rt. 76, Poplar Grove, IL 61065

Comanche Flyer


VOTE 2015

ICS General Membership

Electronic Voting
On The ICS Web Site
by Sally Williams, ICS#15620

o vote electronically in the ICS

General Membership voting of
2015-2016 ICS Officers, any
proposed ICS Bylaw changes, and the
2016 ICS Budget, please see the details
below to refresh your memory. Please
note that voting will only be conducted
electronically on the ICS web site and
will begin MONDAY, MAY 18, 2015.
All current ICS members (including
spousal memberships) in good standing
are entitled to vote.
Your First Step
Go to our ICS web site www.

This will take you to the ICS Home

Page, where you will follow the login
Enter your ICS Number (if you
cannot remember your number, it
can be found on the plastic wrapper
of your monthly COMANCHE FLYER,
or send an email to Mail Webmaster
and your ICS number will be
returned to you via email).
Forgot your password or dont have
one, please contact the ICS Webmaster
via email and they will provide your
password or set one for you.
Your Second Step
Once You Have Logged In:
Locate the voting box at the top right
of the home page to place your vote.
34 Comanche Flyer

Safeguards have been initiated so

that you can only enter the voting
area to vote ONE TIME.
Follow the instructions to cast your
Review your selections, click the
button and your vote will be
General Membership voting will be
closed and ballot information
forwarded to the ICS 2015 Election
Committee on THURSDAY, JUNE
18, 2015.
Results will be announced at the ICS
Annual General Membership Meeting
on FRIDAY, JUNE 19, 2015.

Thank you.
Sally Williams, Chair

Per Dave Fitzgerald, Nominating Chair,

here is a list of candidates, to date:

Av Shiloh
ICS #16025

Vice President: Bob Williams

ICS #13853

LaVerne Stroh
ICS #15170


Bob Berry
ICS #2227

More information on each candidate

will be published in the June Flyer.

We encourage all ICS members to

vote in the ICS General Membership
electronic vote; this will show your
support for those willing to take the
time and effort to support your society.
Exercise your voting privilege for the
2015-2016 ICS Officers, 2016 ICS
Budget, and any ICS Bylaw changes.
Your vote will also insure a quorum for
the Annual General Membership
Meeting. If you do not have access to
a computer (i.e. through the public
library or a friend), you may cast your
ballot beginning MONDAY, MAY 18,
18, 2015 by telephoning ICS 2015
Election Chair, Sally Williams, at (561)
676-3884. Your vote will be received
in strict confidence and entered
electronically into the system.
MAY 2015


Editors Note: Tribe Chiefs and Fly-In Coordinators, remember to
send in your calendar of fly-ins and more detailed information, as it
becomes available, so it can be published in the Flyer.




May 16

Southeast Tribe Election

and Business Meeting
St. Augustine, Florida

May 16 (17*) NE

Lunch Fly-in
Ron and Lynn Ward
Joseph Y Resnick Airport Register at:
Ellenville, NY
Forms/ICS-NE Flyin RegForm.htm

May 21-25

Great Massingham Fly-in Barrie Taylor

Norfolk, United Kingdom

CPPP Training Clinic

May 30-31

Harrisburg, PA

June 6

Phillip Hobbs
(704) 651-9417

CFF Contact Don Nelson
(360) 322-2743 office, (360) 305-0286 cell
NE Tribe Chief CJ Stumpf, (617) 816-8766

AOPA Fly-In/Open House

Restaurant on site
Frederick Municipal Airport
Frederick, MD

June 13 (14*) NE Lunch Fly-in

Parlin Field Airport

Newport, NH

Pete Morse
Register at:
Forms/ICS-NE Flyin RegForm.htm

June 13-15

Heavens Landing (GE99) Jeff Munford

Clayton, GA
(727) 424-2283,

June 17-21 ICS

ICS Convention
South Central Tribe
Courtyard by Marriott
Oklahoma Downtown
Oklahoma City, OK
Sundance Airport Yukon, OK

June 27

Lunch Fly-in
Hickory, NC

Charlie Littwin

July 15

St. John's Fly-in

Newfoundland, Canada

David and Jen Buttle

Contact David at:

July 20-26

EAA AirVenture Oshkosh

Wittman Regional Airport
Oshkosh, WI

August 22

Lunch Fly-in
Charlie Littwin
Greenville Downtown
Airport (GMU), Greenville, SC

Sept 3-7

Greenwich Fly-in
London, England

Lynn Selby and Graham Balls

Oct 9-11

CPPP Training Clinic

Lancaster, TX

Bob Cretney (214) 725-6584 (cell)

* The following Sunday is the raindate.

MAY 2015


May 30-31, 2015

CPPP Training Clinic
Harrisburg, PA
Course Outline:
Saturday, May 30, 8:00am - 5:00pm
The ground course will cover FAA
(BFR) requirements, plus Comanche
systems including: landing gear, brakes,
weight & balance, performance, fuel,
electrical, vacuum, etc.
Sunday, May 31, Flight Day - 7:30am
to 5:00pm, and Monday Morning Flights
if necessary
Ground school for those flying in
the afternoon will be from 8:00am
to 11:00am.
Ground school for those flying in
the morning will be from 1:00pm
to 4:00pm.
The Sunday ground school is a
bonus discussion of power plants,
propellers, etc., followed by handson demonstrations of the landing
gear emergency extension procedure with the CFF/CPPP exclusive
Comanche landing gear simulator,
as well as with a Comanche on
jacks. Expect time for individual
questions and answers.
Note: Meal costs incurred by the course
participants are not included in the
course fees.
A block of rooms are reserved for this
CPPP clinic under the Comanche
Flyer Foundation at:

Clarion Hotel & Conference CenterHarrisburg West

148 Sheraton Drive
New Cumberland, PA 17070

For reservations, call the Hotel

Front Desk at (717) 774-2721
Rates are: $83.00 singles or doubles, per night, plus taxes

Non Smoking rooms are subject to

availability at time of reserving. Free
Continental Breakfasts are included.

The deadline for registering at these

prices is May 15. Please make your
Comanche Flyer





Chosen for value and service

New Surplus Parts

for all Pipers

PA-18 through Cheyenne


SAVE 25- e!
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own hotel reservation, and mention

Comanche Flye r Foundation for
the posted rates.
Room Cancellation policy is by
4:00pm day of arrival.
Rooms have been blocked for the
following nights: May 29, 30, 31.
Come early, stay late!
Ground Transportation:
The Clarion will provide shuttle
service to/from the airport 1.9 miles
supplemented by local tribe members
to/from the classes.
Course Cost, Registration & Fee:
Full course (ground school + flying)
$650.00 US ($50 discount for early
registration, received by May 9)
Ground school only $350 US ($25
discount available for early registration, received by May 9)

Airframe Parts
Accessories, bellcranks
Bushings, cowling
Cables, gears, spars
OHC Rotables
and a whole lot more!

Free online inventory Search!

Preferred Airparts, LLC

Div. of JILCO Industries

Toll Free, U.S. & Canada

Tel. 330-698-0280, FAX 330-698-3164

7:15am to 6:30pm EST.

We Buy Worldwide
We are

We buy inventories of new

surplus parts for nearly
anything that flies. Also
tired or damaged Cessna
twins, Caravans, Citations,
engines and propellers.

Gene Hembree is our buyer. Please contact him at

330-698-0280 ext.224

36 Comanche Flyer

To Register: Go to www.comanche Click on CFF. Classroom
space is limited, so register early.
CFF Contact Don Nelson
(360) 322-2743 office
(360) 305-0286 cell
Local Coordinator Travis Brown
(828) 768-6100
NE Tribe Chief CJ Stumpf
(617) 816-8766

October 9-11
CPPP Training Clinic
Lancaster, Texas
The CFF will conduct a CPPP
event in Lancaster, Texas, October
9-11 hosted by Bob Cretney. As with
previous training events at LNC, the
top shelf hanger and classroom facilities at the Cold War Aviation Museum
(CWAM) will be used for ground
school. The Dallas area provides a
variety of different types of airports
in close proximity to LNC, as well as
lots of open, uncongested areas for
flight training. Fuel at LNC is some of
the lowest in Texas and maintenance

is available if needed. A great speaker

will address us at the Saturday Night
dinner. Additional details will follow
in future issues. Contact Bob Cretney
at: or
(214) 725-6584.


Saturday Lunch Fly-Ins

Saturday Lunch Fly-Ins will be
posted in our new Comanche Winds
newsletter which will come out every
other month.


Weekend or Saturday
Lunch Fly-Ins
One of the most enjoyable aspects
of owning and flying your Comanche is
the ability to travel to Comanche functions and experience the camaraderie
and knowledge of other owners. Some
events are purely social, others include
seminars (mostly technical and/ or
knowledge-based), and the remaining are a combination of both with
attractions for the entire family. If it is
difficult for you to attend a full weekend
Fly-In, you may find a Saturday lunch
gathering with that same Comanche
camaraderie of sharing flying stories,
hangar talk, and lunch more to your
liking. Make plans to attend as many of
these events as you can. Whether your
own Tribe or any of the other Tribes are
hosting it, you are welcome to attend.
The friendships you will make at these
events will be lasting memories. And
if you have a favorite destination in
your region, think about hosting one
of these events yourself. If not in your
region, just contact the Fly-In coordinator in that particular region and
discuss it with him/her. Should you
need a little help getting started and/
or tips on organizing either type of FlyIn, please contact Bruce Thumann at
or (713) 875-3056.
MAY 2015

Tribe Email Updates

If you are not receiving the South
Central Tribes Fly-In and/or Tribespecific email notices and would like
to, please email Bruce Thumann at
He will make sure to amend the SC
Tribe email list to include your address.
Most updates will be for upcoming
events that will also be located in the
ICS National Newsletter; however,
some may be important last-minute
details not appropriate for the National

Scott Myers &

Denise Porter

Specializing in
Aviation Insurance
Fixed and Rotor Wing Aircraft
Maintenance / Avionics Shops
Flight Schools
Workers Comp


Hangar / Premises

May 16
Tribe Election & Business
St. Augustine, Florida
The Southeast Tribe will hold their
Annual Business Meeting and Election
of Officers May 16, 2015 at the NEFR
Airport Authority at Northeast Florida
Regional Airport (KSGJ). Our Tribe
is governed in accordance with our
Bylaws by a Tribe Council which consists of the Tribe Chief, Tribe Rep,
Assistant Tribe Chief, Secretary, and
Treasurer. We will be electing those
officers. A Nominating Committee has
been formed and is being led by Charlie
Littwin. If you are interested in serving
or know a worthy member to nominate,
please let Charlie or me know.
Although the primary purpose is
the business meeting and election, we
chose this location as a good destination
for a weekend getaway. St. Augustine is
a great historic destination with lots to
do and see. Hopefully you will join us
for our election and enjoy the wonderful area of St. Augustine. Tribe Chief,
Phillip Hobbs, will plan to arrive on
Friday or early Saturday and have a
car at the airport to arrange lunch, etc.
There is no cost for this fly-in, therefore
we will buy our own lunches (I will pick
up something locally and bring it in).
On Saturday lunch will be at noon
in the meeting room at the Airport
Authority. The Annual Tribe Business
MAY 2015

Contact us at 888-727-9655 or or



Update Your Old Comanche Panel

Make Room for a MFD

Update your panel to a standard T configuration. Add space for

new electronics. All panels computer drawn and laser cut.
58-60 Centerstack Conversion
61-68 Single or Twin

$950.00 (Fully STCd)

$825.00 (Fully STCd)

Recuts left side $250 Recuts right side $100. (Prior Panels)

Contact: John Van Bladeren at:

Ron & Johns Comanche Service

2007 SE Ash Street Portland, OR 97214
(503) 329-8512 (Day or Night) Fax: (503) 234-0677
Comanche Flyer



Registration Fee: $ 0.00 per person



Flying in, plane number__________________________________________________________________

and Election Meeting will convene from

1:00-3:00 pm. We will elect new officers, discuss Tribe business and how we
keep the Tribe active as well as provide
the greatest value to our members. At
the conclusion of the meeting, you are
free to return home or stay with us
and explore St. Augustine. I will need
to get a head count, so I am asking for
pre-registration. Last minute arrivals
are certainly acceptable, but I would
prefer you register and provide an email
confirmation as soon as possible.
For the Election Fly-In, please
mail (2916 Savannah Hills Drive,
Matthews, NC 28105) or email (phobbs1@ the form to Phillip
Hobbs. If you plan to extend your stay
(hope you will), please register with the
hotel directly. There are lots of good
hotels in St. Augustine. I will send an
update on where we are staying if you
would like to join us.

Phillip Hobbs
ICS SE Tribe Chief
Matthews, NC
(704) 651-9417

South Carolina
Breakfast Club
This is still a great low commitment fly-in. We will continue to join
the South Carolina Breakfast Club (for
breakfast) on occasion. The meal is
about $7.00 this is a well-organized
event. If you have not been to one give
it a try, they are a lot of fun. Here is the
link: Hope to
see you there.

June 13-15
Heavens Landing (GE99)
Clayton, Georgia

Sandwiched in all of this excitement

is our 2015 ICS International Annual
Convention in Oklahoma City, OK. The
dates are June 17-21. It is not too late
to sign up and attend. I hope to see a
great turnout from the Southeast Tribe.

Come join the Southeast Tribe, June

13-15, for a unique fly-in experience
at one of the worlds most unique and
beautiful Mountain Estate Airparks,
Heavens Landing (GE99), Clayton,
GA. This 5062-foot concrete runway
sits on a mountaintop in northern
Georgia. Just getting there is an awesome experience. After you arrive, the
options are endless. Please go to www. to see all the
available activities and places to stay.
For the adventurous type, the Airpark
will arrange on airport camping. Other
accommodations are also available.
Heavens Landing will assist us if there
is enough interest in an offsite stay.

Sun n Fun and AirVenture Oshkosh

are also coming up this spring and
summer. After a somewhat gloomy
winter, I am ready for spring and I
hope to see as many of you as possible
at these events or on a random ramp
somewhere. I will be the one in the
blue and white 180, N8164P.

Please indicate if you are interested

in a flying completion on Saturday
morning. A format with prizes will
be developed if it happens (any ideas
on this also appreciated). We suspect
this might be quite popular and there
is limited space. To reserve a spot,
please contact Jeff Munford at (727)

For the Lunch Fly-ins at Hickory

and Greenville, please email Charlie
Littwin at
and let him know which event you will
be attending.

Other Important Events

38 Comanche Flyer

424-2283 or
Let him know your arrival, activities
of interest, and whether you are staying on or offsite, etc. Please email, if
possible, as additional information will
be provided on arrival/departure and

June 27
Lunch Fly-In
Hickory, North Carolina
There are several motivational factors to get us airborne ... well, how
about FREE FOOD! Yes, the Crosswinds
Caf at the Hickory Regional Airport
(HKY) is offering a free lunch with fuel
purchase on Fridays and Saturdays.
You are invited to fly in, have lots of
Comanche talk, enjoy a free lunch, and
get some cheap fuel!
HKY is a towered airport and landing
is typically on runway 24. If you do land
on 24, you should be able to easily make
the right turn onto taxiway A2, which
puts you right in front of the restaurant
and the self-serve fuel. Does it get any
better than that? Cheap fuel and free
food all within a 30-second walk! Tell
the tower you are parking at the terminal ramp. No cost or pre-registration is
required, but plan on arriving around
11:30am. Please drop Charlie or Phillip
an email if you plan to attend.

August 22
Lunch Fly-In Greenville
Downtown Airport (GMU)
Greenville, South Carolina
The next lunch fly-in will be at the
conveniently located Runway Caf.
This is another great location where
you can park right in front of the restaurant ... sorry, no free food here! If
landing on runway 1-19, the restaurant
is by the A3 taxiway on the south ramp.
Be careful there are three airports
all very close to each other, two are
towered and the third, GSP, is a class
C. Here is a chance to brush up on
your airspace skills while filling your
belly with good food! No cost or preregistration is required, but plan on
arriving around 11:30am. Please drop
Charlie or Phillip an email if you plan
to attend.
MAY 2015


Comanche Pilot Proficiency

Program in Lantana, Florida

by Rich Lanning

he big day finally arrived for

the start of the first 2015 CFF
Comanche Pilot Proficiency
Program (CPPP), February 21-22 at
Palm Beach County Airpark (KLNA),
more familiarly known as Lantana
Airport, located near West Palm Beach,
Florida not a bad place to hold an
event when the rest of the country
was suffering from record colds and
snowfalls. The temperatures, however,
were in the 50s during the afternoon

when the first attendees started arriving in their single and multiengine
Comanches. Still, there were no complaints about the temperatures. While
we were concerned that the snows up
North would ground some of the attendees, all eleven of the flying students
were able to make it. We just had two
ground school-only cancellations.
Airport Management was recently
taken over by Galaxy Aviation who
went out of their way to accommodate
the event. The first challenge was finding parking for all the arriving airplanes.
Concurrent with our event there was a
Bonanza maintenance seminar going on
at the field. Thanks to Cory of Galaxy
Aviation, all of the Comanches were
given adequate parking.
Galaxy provided us with a meeting
place that was a trailer located at the
entrance to the airport which isolated
us from the runway noises. Lantana is
a very active, non-towered airport. It
has three fixed wing flight schools and
two helicopter schools on the field. It
has three runways so crosswinds are
rarely a concern. Galaxy also graciously

MAY 2015

Comanche Flyer


Cliff Wilewski of Heritage Aero is the

Comanche Go-To guy.

systems, maintenance, and the gear

operation and emergency extension
procedures. I volunteered my plane for
the emergency gear demonstrations on
Sunday. Compared to the many beautiful Comanches that were there for the
event I was a little embarrassed by my
well-worn relic from 1959. However, I
was glad that I did volunteer it because
Cliff was able to identify several items
needing attention. My airplane is still in
that phase of fixing things as opposed
to enhancing them. Someday I hope it
too will be the envy of others.
A dinner meeting was held Saturday
night at the Atlantis Grill, which is just
on the other side of the fence from
Rwy 27 at Lantana. They provided us
with a private room where pilots and
some family members attended which
bumped up the initial reservation numbers more than anticipated. Our server,
Amanda, was more than accommodating and met our every need. Everyone
(continued on page 42)

Guest speaker, Dr. Michael Schloss, enlightened

us with healthy flying advice.

provided us with a projector and the

use of one of their hangars in which
to perform the emergency gear extension training. Special note of thanks
goes out to Mark Sugimoto of Aim High
Aviation who provided us with the necessary jacks, tail stand, battery, floor
creeper, and battery charger to power
the emergency gear simulator. He also
kept the demonstrator airplanes battery fully charged.
One challenge was finding hotel
accommodations that were reasonably
priced. It was prime tourist season in
Florida when all the snowbirds come
down to visit. Since the nearest suitable
lodging was about eleven miles away,
arrangements were made to acquire
a 15-person van to transport all the
attendees. They came as far away as
Illinois, Ohio, Virginia, and New Jersey.
Only two pilots were local. Two others
40 Comanche Flyer

were from Florida but from the other

side of the state.
Don Nelson experienced a gear collapse on the first day of the event. The
legs on one of our tables fell off as he
moved it into position for the classroom
training. Being only a few miles from
the ocean, metal objects tend to rust
quickly there. Corrosion is a constant
concern for aircraft owners in Florida.
Having had to replace the propeller on
my aircraft, I am very well cognizant
of this environmental hazard.
The program was presented by Lead
Instructor Mike Stich and assisted by
Flight Instructors Steve Zaboji and
Myron Oakley. We were fortunate to
have Cliff Wilewski of Heritage Aero
from Rockford IL with us. He is a treasure trove of information regarding
the Comanche. He presented aircraft

It looks like one attendee is a bit

exhausted from the training event.
(l to r) Rick Ludwin, Mike Pons/
Southwest Pilot, Mike Stich, Steve
MAY 2015

N Paws

No bothersome paperwork required!
If you love to fly, and you love animals,
please join us now! Its easy, its fun, and
its extremely rewarding. Joining is easy
and takes just a minute of your time.
1. Go to
and register
2. Post your information and read
other posts
3. Wait for contacts / make contact
with others

is an online meeting place for pilots and other volunteers

who help to transport rescue animals by air. The mission of the site is to
provide a user-friendly communication venue between those that rescue,
shelter, and foster animals; and pilots and plane owners willing to assist
with the transportation of these animals.
A general aviation transport requires just one pilot volunteer and is
far more efficient and dependable than time-consuming ground transportation for these animals who are often in danger of euthanization.
Volunteer pilots retain complete authority of their planning and flights,
and can give as much or as little time as they like.

MAY 2015


Enjoy flying while helping a worthwhile
non-profit organization
Flights are tax-deductible 501c3
Expand your network of pilot/aviation
contacts and other professionals
Gain flight experience and log more hours
Explore new geographical areas
An extremely rewarding experience
every time

Pilots N Paws

Comanche Flyer


was very pleased with his or her meal

and I had several comments on how
inexpensive it was compared to where
they had eaten the previous night. Our
guest speaker was a cardiologist named
Dr. Michael Schloss. He gave a presentation on how to keep us aging pilots
flying. He is also an AME, A&P, Warbird
owner and air show pilot, and owner
of a twin Comanche he is restoring.
Dr. Schloss gave an interesting talk on
the effects of cholesterol. The general
consensus was that we were glad he
gave his presentation after the meal.
The one takeaway I think most of the
attendees will not forget is that two
glasses of wine a day is good for you.


Extended Range, Gross Weight Increase, more
useful load, Lower Engine & Airframe Maintenance
Fifteen (15) U.S. gallons each, always
aluminum construction.

Osborne Tip Tank Kits are original Piper

factory equipment.

LED navigation lights now available.

18173 Osborne Rd, Victorville, CA 92394 E-mail:

Phone: 800-963-8477 (760)245-8477 Fax: (760)245-5735

42 Comanche Flyer

Sunday was devoted to classroom

and flight instruction. To the west of
Lantana is the Loxahatchee National
Wildlife Refuge most of the flight
instruction was conducted over it.
Very positive comments were received
regarding the flight instruction ... we
had some top-notch instructors. Since
there were so many attendees, the other
local pilot and I had our flight training
on Monday morning. During my flight,
we had a little surprise on the first
gear extension, no gear down light. Here
is where the previous days training on
emergency gear extension really paid
off. We quickly noticed the ammeter
rising so we placed the gear switch in
the OFF position. Surprisingly, after
about 30 seconds the gear down light
came on. We cycled the gear and it
worked fine. Three full stop landings
later, the gear continued to perform
flawlessly. Naturally, the lack of the
gear light during that one time will
linger in the back of my mind each
future flight. Fortunately, I have the
knowledge I need to handle the situation should it arise. A lot was crammed
into that hour of flight training. I gained
a lot of useful information to further
enhance my Comanche flying.
Besides new knowledge, we gained
new friends. I am sure our flight paths
will cross again in the near future. If
you have never attended a CPPP event,
I would highly recommend it. You can
never stop learning.
MAY 2015


A Blistering Lap
by Steve Zaboji

he first production Comanche,

a PA-24-180, flew on October
21, 1957. This event beckoned
a manufacturing effort for single and
twin engine Comanche airplanes that
ultimately produced a staggering 6,989
units in a variety of models and variants.
Tragically, the Comanches success came
to an unexpected halt in 1972 when hurricane Agnes fierce flooding wiped out
Pipers plant in Lock Haven, Pa.
Historically this horrific economic
blow to Piper led its management to
recalibrate its corporate strategy by
abandoning its Pennsylvania factory
in favor of developing its new line of
Arrow and Seneca models at its economically and weather friendlier Vero
Beach, Florida facility. It was the end
of the Comanche. Or was it?
Now, fifty-eight years since that first
Comanche took to the air, a substantial
number are still airworthy and operating faithfully throughout the world. It is
quite a tribute to Piper, the Comanche,
American ingenuity, craftsmanship,
and maintenance standards.
N99AR, a 1969 PA-30C Miller TurboCharged Twin, came into the life of our
family at the end of 1995. My experience in flying PA-24180/250/260 early
in my flying career (1965-75) forged
a healthy respect for the Comanche
brand, and if it would not have been
for an opportunity buy on a Cessna 210
and later a Cessna 310, I would have
bought a Comanche at an earlier time.
Given the longevity and quality of
the Comanche, it is not surprising that
I have met owners who have had theirs
MAY 2015

for over twenty, thirty or even forty

years. Others, like me, who owned and
loved one, but for circumstances other
than the airplane, had to move on.
I have often thought that every
owner of a specific aircraft is like a
runner in a relay race: the runner tries
to take the baton (the purchase) as
smoothly as he can without faltering
and then do well in what becomes his
lap (the duration of his ownership).
The owner before me, a prominent doctor in Tennessee, mimicked
his love for his Jaguar automobile by
installing in N99AR a burled walnut
instrument panel, Jaguar-like leather
bucket seats, and gave it a classic
paint scheme. When he completed
his lap he moved on to an Aerostar.
Interestingly, I have met a number of
pilots who have traded from a Miller
Turbo to an Aerostar or have come
from an Aerostar to a Miller Turbo. Its
a speed/economy conundrum.
My lap was nearly eight years
long, and I ran hard by changing the
engines and props. I also had a number
of Webco annuals, which included an
installation of nacelle tanks for extra
range. Webco also installed B&C starters and alternators for performance
and reliability.
A problematic Piper autopilot had
me gravitating toward Bill Roundtree
and Ken Talhelm at Muncie Aviation.
I brought my plane to their shop for
the autopilot repair, and before I knew
it, I had a complete rewire of what
was literally a hornets nest behind
the instrument panel. While we were

at it, a Garmin 430 (a big deal at the

time), as well as a Garmin audio panel
and an Apollo S-60 GPS/NavCom were
installed. I remember that it was nearly
$40K, and for me, it took a great deal
of creative financing to pull it off. I did
fly away from Muncie, knowing, that
my Twinco had been transformed into
something very special.
My regard for Muncies professionalism, skill, technical creativity, and
meticulousness truly impressed me,
and I have been a customer and fan of
their organization ever since. In 2003 a
business downturn had me looking for
a hand-off for my wand of ownership.
The baton went to Richard Stanley
in western Massachusetts. Richards
N99AR lap lasted nearly nine years
in which time he had the engines and
props overhauled. He upgraded the
Garmin 430 to WAAS with GPSS, along
with some other panel conveniences
that supported the iPad/digital revolution. Richard came from a Cessna
340, and after nine years of owning the
speedy Comanche twin, he yearned for
the comfort of pressurization. Hence
another Cessna 340.
Richard then passed the baton to
New York lawyer Darius Marzec whose
lap was fast and furious and lasted
less than a year. Darius did add the
beautiful paint job that N99AR sports
today, but he longed for a bigger cabin,
especially for those business trips that
involved passengers.
Next, the baton was handed off to Ed
Pepper in central Missouri. (It seemed
that somehow as a previous owner of
Comanche Flyer


The original panel that started it all.

The finished panel exudes Muncie Aviations design and installation capabilities.
Note the custom panel above the windshield for mags, fuel pumps and lights.

Ready for a face-lift.

N99AR, I often became a reference in

the selling process.) When Ed offered
a contract for N99AR (contingent on a
pre-buy inspection), I was contracted to
go to New York and fly my former twin
back to Virginia where I arranged for a
pre-buy at Aero Services in Winchester,
Va. Needless to say, it was a fascinating and emotional reunion when for
the first time in nearly 10 years I was
reacquainted with my pride and joy.
While the outside sported a new coat
of paint, the inside, for all practical
purposes, was nearly the same.

Ed decided to reenter the gun business and founded Osage County Guns
right there on his spread. The business
grew rapidly, and he met the demand by
constructing an additional building and
increasing the number of his employees
to twelve. Ed humorously points out that
Osage County Guns in Belle, Missouri is
the only fly-in gun shop in the country,
and welcomes pilots but cautions them
to check ahead to make sure that his sod
field is in good condition.

I departed New Yorks Republic field

and climbed to 12,500. While I felt a
familiarity, there were problems with
the turbo chargers and other minor
annoyances that had me grappling most
of the 90-minute trip to Virginia. After
the pre-buy/annual inspection was
completed, there came a negotiation
that amounted to a $12K reduction
from the $151K asking price for the
repair of airworthy items. The deal was
closed, and Aero Services proceeded
to fix the squawks and to prepare the
plane for my delivery to Ed in Rolla,
Missouri. This I did in November of
2012, along with my then 15-year-old
44 Comanche Flyer

student glider pilot son. We stayed

with Ed at his home where we spent a
weekend flying and transitioning Ed to
his new Twin Comanche. After numerous discussions on possible avionics
upgrades, I unfailingly recommended
that he contact Bill Roundtree or Ken
Talhelm at Muncie Aviation for advice.
Not in my wildest imagination could I
have seen what would come next.
Ed has been a pilot since he was first
smitten with aviation as a young teenager in a small town in Illinois. After
high school he attended Parks College
where he earned an A&P license, while
on the side he took flying lessons to earn
his private pilots license. After graduation he returned to northern Illinois
and pursued employment with a telephone company. On the side, he started
a gun business that ultimately grew
into a full-time livelihood, and over the
years continued his love for airplanes
by owning a Moony, Citabria, Twin
Comanche, and a Cessna Chancellor.
Ed sold his gun business, retired and
moved back to Missouri to be near
family. He ultimately bought some land
and built a private air strip (charted as
MU14), a home, and a hangar.

Muncie Aviations Bill Roundtree

oversees every aspect of N99ARs
MAY 2015

The makeovers totality included

moving, repositioning and rewiring
all circuit breakers.

what the engineering and administrative hurdles consisted of.

about N99AR or any avionics project

that you might be contemplating.

It was a remarkable project, and it

is everyones hope that Eds vision and
commitment for excellence inspires
other Comanche owners to enrich the
value of their airplanes, especially by
updating them with the latest digital
avionics and flight instruments.

Before N99ARs debut at the ICS

Convention, Muncie Aviation will do
an annual inspection in May and install
the aircrafts final enhancement, deicing boots.

Important Debut
Ed Pepper and his incredible Miller
Turbo PA-30 C N99AR will be displayed on June 18-19 of the upcoming
ICS Convention in Oklahoma City.
Additionally, Bill Roundtree and Ken
Talhelm will be on hand to represent
Muncie Aviation. There will be a special presentation on the project with
ample opportunity to ask questions

As fellow pilot and former Miller

Turbo owner, Steve Lefferts, so aptly
put it the panel and the plane are
insanely cool.
We hope that well see you at this
years exciting Oklahoma City ICS 2015
Keep The Blue Side Up!
Steve is an ATP, CFII, MEI and
a CFF/CPPP instructor. He can
be contacted via email at: steve@

Dare we say Beechcraft yokes with a

custom Piper logo.

Using his Cessna Chancellor became

an escalating expense in the new era of
$6-$7/gallon avgas, so he decided that
he would seek an airplane that had the
performance of his Chancellor but also
had the economy he enjoyed when he
owned a Twin Comanche for thirteen
years. A Miller Twin Turbo suited his
quest, and luckily N99AR became his.
Truly, Eds early lap is as monumental as Roger Bannisters first
sub-4-minute mile. His aviation experience and financial success converged
on his desire to transform N99AR into
an airplane that could be considered
the best personal twin in the air. Ed
did contact Muncie Aviations Bill
Roundtree, and that call was the first
step to a transformation that is nothing
short of technical artistry.
For brevitys sake, I will not go
into much technical detail here but
will offer the fact that Muncies work,
including an outsourced new interior,
cost somewhere north of $350K. Let
the photography bracket for you the
enormity of the project. There will be
future opportunities to learn of what
went where, how much it cost, and
MAY 2015

Literally, N99ARs Avionics systems were rewired from front to back.

On the tarmac at Front Royal, Virginia where we stopped to show off the
Twin Comanche to our glider club friends before delivering it to Rolla,
Missouri (Nov 2012).
Comanche Flyer



(Two issue minimum)

25 Words: $25.00/2 issues
No charge for photos
Extra Words: $0.50/word
Payment must accompany advertisement order.

All advertising must be received by the ICS in writing

(mail, fax, or e-mail) five weeks prior to the desired
month of publication. Payment must accompany adver
tisement order.


1959 Comanche PA24-250 3500TT 1000SMOH &
prop/3-blade, Dual KX155w/GS, KLN94 IFRw/map,
STEC30 w/alt hold, Strikefinder EI EGT, EI FP=5L
Fuel monitor, New 4-place intercom, brakes, tires,
tail AD complied, tip-tanks, pulse-landing lights,
hangared-NDH, 918-607-6442, $49,900

1964 Twin Comanche PA-30, SR#342, N34RA,

TTAF 6045, New Custom panel with Aspen-PFD,
Synthetic Vision, GMA-340 Audio 4pl intercom,
GNS-430W, Yoke Garmin 796-cpld to 430, JPI-760
Eng. Anal. With FF, STEC 50-AP, $87,000. Call
Andy (615) 305-6612 or email andy.burton@ 1/2

Renewals may be made by telephone, but initial

ad must be in writing.
The publisher makes no warranties as to the
veracity or accuracy of the information provided by
the advertiser. The publisher is under no obligation to
accept any or all advertisements.

Comanche Society
Trading Post & Classified
Advertising Contact:

Betsy Beaudoin

2779 Aero Park Drive

Traverse City, MI 49686
Phone: (800) 773-7798
Fax: (231) 946-9588

1965 PA24-260 N8617P: 5958TT; 234 since fac.
reman; No damage; All ADs; Garmin-530W and 430W
both WAAS upgrades; S-tec 50 autopilot; WX10A
Stormscope; King HSI; Precise Flt. Stdby. Vac. Sys.;
Paint and interior 9; Many extras. Always hangared;
One family since new. $80,000. jnarbaugh@gmail.
com. 231-526-5359.

COMANCHES WANTED: All models, runouts OK, needing
P&I/Radio upgrades OK, fast discriminate transaction
on your ramp. 20 years experience/references. Call
Jim, (760) 803-3093. 2/2


1966 PA 30 (Miller-Twin Comanche) TTA approx.

6500 hrs. Engines less than 75 hrs.SOH(Zephyr).
New Props. less than 75 hrs. Interior-9, Paint-6.
Maintained by Aircraft Engineering. Over $100,000
spent last 75 hours. $120,000/ Serious Inquires
Only. (317) 590-7200
MILLER CONVERSION: 200-hp Lycoming I0360-CIC
Engines, Miller Extended Nose w/Baggage Door,
Miller Extended Engine Nacelles w/Baggage, Miller
Square Wingtips, Miller Nose Taxi Light, Miller Dual
Brakes, Miller Stainless-Steel Brake Discs, NoseWheel STC.
Robertson STOL kit, Single-Piece Windshield, Factory
Oxygen, Electric Aileron Trim, Electric Inflatable
Door-Seal, Internal Outer-Wing Tanks, Landing Light
Alternating Flasher, Whelan 3-point Strobe System,
Knots-2-U System, Broad-Band VHF Com Antenna,
Battery Mod-Moved Aft w/Aux Hookup, Alternator
Mod-Kits, Lightweight Starters, Under Engine
Stainless-Steel Plates, Speed-Brakes, Digital
Tachometer, Sound-Proofing, New Heater.
AVIONICS: King KMA24 Audio/Marker, 1-King KX155
w/Glide Slope, 1-Garmin-530 Com/IFR-GPS (Nexrad,
WAAS), 1-Garmin-327 Transponder w/Encoder,
1-Terra Transponder as Backup w/Encoder, King
KCS-55A Slaved HSI System, Century III Autopilot
w/Glide Slope Coupling, WX-950 Stormscope, PS
Engineering 4-Place Intercom, JPI Engine Monitor
(all cylinders).

1966-PA30 N7861Y 7238-TT 816/822-SMOH

ENGINES/PROPS WowCowlSpinners, Tip-Tanks,
New Heater, New Paint/Windows, Leather Interior, Century2000AP, HSI, Garmin430,Stormscope & much more. NDH-Complete Logs $130K
(717) 940-2172 2/2

46 Comanche Flyer

MAY 2015


Use this list as a guideline for the information you may

want to provide and the order in which to do so.
YEAR, Model Year of Aircraft
MODEL, PA 24-180, 250, 260, 400
SERIAL NUMBER, Serial Number of Aircraft
N-NUMBER, Registration Number of Aircraft
TOTAL AIRFRAME TIME, Total Hours On Airframe
AIRFRAME DAMAGE HISTORY, Any Damage History e.g. Gear Up Landing
TOTAL ENGINE TIME, Total Hours On Engine Since Factory New or Remanufactured
PROPELLER TIME, Total Time On Prop Since New or Overhaul
FLIGHT INSTRUMENTS, Standard Gyro Panel, Electronic Flight Instrument System
Equipment Listing e.g. GPS, ILS, VORs
SPECIAL EQUIPMENT LISTING, Engine Monitor (EGT, CHT, Fuel Flow, etc.)
AUTOPILOT, Type & Make of Autopilot
EXTERIOR MODIFICATIONS, Gap Seals, Wing Tips, Speed Mods, Windshield

Abbreviation Key:
Air Conditioning
Airworthiness Directives
Automatic Direction Finder
Artificial Horizon
Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic
Aircraft Inspector
Audio Panel
AP Autopilot
Course Deviation Indicator
Cylinder Head Temperature
COM Communication
Counter Rotating
Carburetor Temperature
Direction Finder
Directional Gyro
Distance Measuring Equipment
Electronic Flight Instrument
Exhaust Gas Temperature
Emergency Locator Transmitter
External Power Plug
Flight Director


Full Gyro Panel
Firewall Forward
Global Positioning System
Glide Slope
Ground Service Plug
Heated Pitot
HP Horsepower
Horizontal Situation Indicator
Instrument Flight Rules
Instrument Meteorological
Instrument Landing System
Left Engine
Localizer (Runway Centerline
LORAN Long Range Navigation System
Marker Beacon
Major Damage History
No Damage History
Nautical Miles
Navigation Radio Receiver
Outside Air Temperature

Ads must be submitted in writing only (fax or E-mail OK).

Free ads may not be placed by phone.
First 25 words are free.
Extra words are $0.40 per word.

MAY 2015

Aerotech Publications............................3
Aerox (Shaw Aerox LLC).....................19
Air Parts of Lock Haven.......................23
Aircraft Specialties Services..................7
Aircraft Spruce and Specialty................C2
AKG......................................................... 29
Alpha Aviation......................................16
Aviation West Insurance Broker..........37
Clifton Aero............................................9
Comanche Flyer Foundation...............13
Comanche Gear...................................11
Degroff Aviation Technologies.............30
Electronics International.................... C2
General Aviation Modifications............27
Great Lakes Aero Products..................16
Hartzell Propeller Inc...........................17
Heritage Aero, Inc.......................... C2,31
Insight Instrument Corp..................... C3
J.L. Osborne Inc...................................42
Johnston Aircraft Services.................. C4
Knots 2U, Ltd.......................................48
Oilamatic, Inc......................................19
Paul Bowen...........................................41
Pilots N Paws........................................41 C2
Plane Power Ltd...................................48
Poplar Grove Airmotive.......................33
Precision Propeller...............................33
Preferred Airparts................................36
Rocky Mountain Propellers, Inc...........11
Ron & Johns Comanche Service..........37
Shaw Aerox LLC..................................19
Sky Manors Air Repair LLC................48
Sound Ex Products...............................37
Survival Products Inc...........................11
Tsuniah Lake Lodge.............................11
Warren Gregoire & Associates.............27
Zephyr Aircraft Engines.......................23

Fax: (231) 946-9588, or E-mail:

Trading Post is a non-commercial, member to member

service provided free of charge, one time per member,
per year. The sale of aircraft is not permitted in the
Trading Post.

OH Overhaul
Piper Electric Trim
Rotating Beacon
Rate of Climb
Right Engine
Retractable Landing Gear
RNAV Area Navigation
Service Bulletins
SCMOH Since Chrome Major Overhaul
Since Factory New
SFRM Since Factory Remanufacture
SMOH Since Major Overhaul
Since Overhaul
Serial Number
SPOH Since Propeller Overhaul
STOH Since Top Overhaul
Time Between Overhauls
Total Time
Total Time Airframe and Engine
TTSN Total Time Since New
XPDR Transponder


Wanted: Wing tip tanks for my Comanche, Brittan

or Osborne (Your tanks fit every model, single or
twin). Call with what you have. All tanks considered,
pristine to damaged, one or both. Contact Doug
Kempf at 360-903-9156 or email p51flyguy@ 1/1

Comanche Flyer




Truth is, your old generator is tired. And while youve had
many great years together, its time to modernize to a safer,
more reliable charging system, capable of maintaining the
main ship battery at its peak. Plane-Power has the
answer, with the most complete boxed alternator
conversion kits available. Gear- or belt-driven and
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the generator replacement that will unleash your
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Included in conversion kits
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HET0024 Plane-Power Belt Alternator Ad_Comanche.indd 1

3/4/15 10:47 AM
Client: Hartzell Engine Technologies
Ad Title: Plane-Power Belt Alternator
Publication: Comanche Flyer
Trim: 7 x 4.875 Bleed: None Live: Not Provided

48 Comanche Flyer

MAY 2015

Australian Comanche Stabilator Horn


Recommended Installation Centers

Tulare, California
(559) 686-1794

Rockford, Illinois
(815) 395-0500

Clifton, Texas
(254) 675-3771

Newton, Kansas
(816) 283-7929

All of these firms have years of experience with Comanches and can do an excellent job for you!

Johnston Aircraft Service


P.O. Box 1457 Tulare, CA 93275 Phone: (559) 686-1794 or 686-2161 Fax: (559) 686-9360
e-mail: Web Site: