Key points from focus group meeting.

Vanue: Hotel Istana, K.Lumpur

Date : 11 September 2014
Attendance:
1. Jolene Wong, Shell Malaysia (Portfolio Manager) Industrial product
2. Tn Hj. Kamaludin, Tabung Haji, Manager (Land Matters and property group) Trading
and services
3. Muhammad Azan Omar, Axiata Group Berhad (Property Executive, Engineering Property
Department) Trading and services
4. Mr. Roy Irwan Muhammad, Maybank (Head of Corporate Real Estate 1) Trading and
services
5. Mr. Zulkifli Che Ahmad, Affin Bank Group (Head of Contract and Finance) Trading and
services
6. En Ahmad Kaseri Ramin, Telekom Malaysia Trading and services
Key points
Manage property

Points/explaination
Assets value

References
if you have checked with some bankers, there is
no such department yang betul betul manage the
real estate lah, the most yang kita ada, adalah
property development and also property
maintenance that falls under the same division
(Zul-Affin)
The function is basically to manage, satu, adalah,
our own property, our own building that includes
branches, because we have got branches all over
the country, kita ada kita punya business loan
centre, so anything to do with these branches,
business loan centre, maintenance ke even we need
to build a new building for our branches or
business loan centre, falls under this property
division. (Zul-Affin)
..whenever you give out loans, there are certaincertain pinjaman that you take property as the

collateral. Property in the form of building, okay,

land, it could be, you know, any types of land,
Malay-reserved land ke, apa jenis tanah, leasehold
ke freehold ke as long as kita tengok the value of
that particular assets tu commensurate dengan the
loan amount yang kita nak bagi, we take it as
collateral. (zul-Affin)
sebab bila kita give out loans and we take all
these assets as collateral we need to make sure that
these assets are in a good shape..(Zul-Affin)
For example, a building, though it is located in the
prime area, tapi kalau you tak betul-betul manage
or tak betul-betul maintain, in the event that you
nak liquidate, so it will affect the value. (Zul-Affin)
.. , kita manage, kita maintain all the tower and then
kita lease kita punya tower. So, normally kita lease
to kita punya pesaing lah, such as Maxis, DiGi,
P1 Its the rental issue la (Azan-Axiata)
.. kita ambik the highest la, the highest rental
sekarang kita bayar to our landlords ea. Kita ada
jugak ambik some parts of Tabung Haji punya
tanah bangunan, tanah JAIS, tanah wakaf, tanah

Strategy

Shell, Petronas pun ada lah..(Azan-Axiata)

..so, sekarang ni kita tengah come up dengan kita
punya research lah. Kita nak submit kepada semua
kita punya landlord untuk sedarkan diorang lah.
Maknanya, kita nak revise on kita punya rental
agreement.. Memang kita generate income memang
okay lah. Maybe triple or double lah. Tapi kita rasa
agak tidak berbaloi lah sebab kita just pakai

rooftop. And then, access pun agak limited. So, kita

rasa itu bukan fair value lah.. (Azan-Axiata)
..so far, kita punya rental tu memang agak jaga lah,
untuk kita punya capping tu kita memang tengok,
kita memang betul-betul jaga. Tapi, kita punya,
sepatutnya DiGi lah, DiGi, Maxis semua, diorang
ni yang, apa orang kata, break up. So, once kita dah
propose seribu, semua landlord akan ikut seribu.
Kita takde kita punya standard.(Azan-Axiata)
.. how much dia punya rental from the ground, kita
subdivide by dia punya floor, and then kita add up
dengan dia punya access factor and safety..(AzanAxiata)
..we have an internal department. In fact, in
downstream, I mean, the retail side, we have three
departments. One is called the retail network,
which they have a retail planner to do all the
feasible studies and see which are suitable lands for
stations and then they pass on to the real estate
department to do acquisitions. So, all the licensing,
acquisition. So, they focus on that. As well as
disposal..(Jolene-Shell)

difficulty

..kadang kadang ni yang kita punya most problem

ni outdoor lah. Outdoor sites. And then sometimes
untuk indoor sites pun kita punya problem tu agak
tinggi lah sebab kita as a Celcom, kita provide apa,
coverage, based on complaints, based on you punya
client request you as...(Azan-Axiata)

..kita dah keluarkan cost and then kita terpaksa

tanggung kita punya capex, opex tu terlalu tinggi.
So, kita untuk future, long term tu kita nampak tak
bagus lah untuk kita punya sector lah..(AzanWorkplace

Difference

Axiata)
Secara jujurnya, in Celcom, dia punya background

background

in property dia, normally lah, in property tu sendiri

dia punya staff dia lah ea, bukan daripada kita
punya bidang lah. So, saya nampak dia punya
problem, dia, apa, daripada situ. Maksudnya kalau
bukan daripada kita punya sector, so kita nak tackle
on this issue, susah. So, normally boleh saya kata
8/10 lah, apa, daripada total volume staff kita tu,
normally campur lah, daripada civil, mechanical,

Unsructured

electrical, ya betul. So, bila when comes to the

management

issue on property, value, so diorang tak boleh tackle

part tu..(Azan-Axiata)
I currently am with the department for 5 years. The
department already set up more than that, its

Work load

maybe 8 to 10 years ago. But, its during the time

its still not so structured. Its a bit fluffy between
retail and corporate real estate..(Cheng Ni-Shell)
We actually leveraged a lot on agent. So, I mean,
basically, service providers . for myself, I
manage projects in Brunei, I manage project, used
to be in Hong Kong, Macau. So, we dont base
there, but we have to kind of, do some remote
control through the service providers..(Cheng NiShell)
Portfolio manager here, meaning that we were
given certain portfolios, say, take care of Malaysia,

just for an example. So, you have this certain

portfolio that you need to handle. So anything that
happen in Malaysia, maybe you need to be
involved in _________ like that. Not in terms of
funding, but in terms of the project-wise and the

Operational

area that you cover.. (Jolene-Shell)

A little bit on the background on how the team is
structured. So there are actually three teams in
Corporate Real Estate itself. So, the first team is the
strategy team where they will look at which places
that they should strategise the location and things
like that. And then, we, both of us in the transaction
and the projects team. Any transaction method, say,
acquisition and disposal and things like that, it falls
under us or any new projects, any buildings that we
need to build, under us. And then subsequently, in
the operation sect, then the managing sect which is
the operation sect will be facilities management bit.
So theres these three core teams in real estate that
we manage. So, from starting the strategy, we move
on to transaction and project and after that the
operation which is in facilities management..
(Jolene-Shell)
..cuma bahagian Pemasaran dengan bahagian/badan
Penyewaan. Kita ada separate, hartanah, dah pecah
dua lah dengan Pemasaran, Penyewaan.. (FaizalTabung haji)
.. Dulu, Bahagian Pengurusan Hartanah. Dia jaga
semua, pemasaran semua. Lepas tu, bila dia pecah
dua, Bahagian Pengurusan Hartanah satu,
kemudian, Bahagian Penyewaan dan Pemasaran
satu..(Faizal-Tabung haji)

Asset yg merosot

Macam last year kan, macam building building

yang tak boleh bagi income kan, so kita jual lah
Itu memang target hartanah tu memang target
pengurusan hartanah..(Faizal-Tabung haji)

Customers

Macam saya, saya jaga bangunan yang relate

satisfaction

dengan pemasaran. Yang banyak income. Tu yang

kata jaga tenant. Haa. Saya punya KPI, tenant puas
hati. FM (facility management) yang kami, yang
contractor buat, atau yang kami bagi, maknanya
capai lah. Takdak complaint, jadik pengguna selesa.
Kami focus kat situ. Kalau hat yang ni, yang
bahagian pengurusan, pemasaran ni, marketing ni,

Market performance

dia carik lepas tu collect.. (faizal-Tabung haji)

Macam saya, saya jaga bangunan yang relate
dengan pemasaran. Yang banyak income. Tu yang
kata jaga tenant. Haa. Saya punya KPI, tenant puas
hati. FM (facility management) yang kami, yang
contractor buat, atau yang kami bagi, maknanya
capai lah. Takdak complaint, jadik pengguna selesa.
Kami focus kat situ. Kalau hat yang ni, yang
bahagian pengurusan, pemasaran ni, marketing ni,
dia carik lepas tu collect (Azan-Axiata)
Tapi selalunya kalau bangunan Tabung Haji ni dia
mintak melampau kenaikannya. Tabung Haji saya
ingat, dia mintak dalam 15%.. (Azan-Axiata)
Sekarang ni, kebanyakan landlord dah pandai. Dia
check on contract tu, dia tak benarkan kita sublet.
So, selalunya terms terms of sublet tu kita akan
cuba sorokkan, hide hide kan. Suruh cepat sign,
cepat sign lah (Azan Axiata)

Challenging

most of kita punya challenge bukan kawasan suburban lah. Challenge kita kawasan urban.
Contohnya, saya bagi contoh, kawasan Putrajaya.
Kita tak dibenarkan erect sebarang tower on land..

Property system

(Azan-Axiata)
For the Celcom aa, you look at our office, we are
using our own system prism, that called, Prism.
That one is the Property System. So, in the Prism,
we have all the database sites for all the ten
thousand sites, we know which site is active, which
site you have to renew. So, from there, they will
pop up the notice. This site is going to terminate in
two days lah, expired..(Azan-Axiata)
We have yearly, half-yearly and also months. Sort
of like, three months before. The system will
prompt the portfolio managers, so, the portfolio
managers need to plan when they need to start

KPI

doing that.. (Jolene-Shell)

Saya punya KPI, tenant puas hati. FM (facility
management) yang kami, yang contractor buat, atau
yang kami bagi, maknanya capai lah. Takdak
complaint, jadik pengguna selesa. Kami focus kat
situ..(Faizal-Tabung haji)
So, kalau dia suruh kita keluar by petang ni,
sebelum petang ni kita dah kena ada _________?
So, benda ni is one of our KPI. And then, to
maintain the rental is one of our KPI. And then, the
third one, kita punya others business lah, kita punya
sublet..(Azan-Axiata)
You have a time to catch to open a new station or
something like that. Usually, they have a target of

time. But for us will be different. Our first KPI will

be safety.. . Yes, we have KPIs on safety as well.
So, its a whole list of KPIs for safety. So, thats the
first thing. Zero, goal zero. We call them goal zero.
No fatality, no leakage(Jolene-Shell)
Basically, KPI kita manage asset yang
__________________ dekat Maybank.. (Roy

Limited staff

Maybank)
Dalam Property Management Maybank kita ada 19
staff. Tapi because of sekarang ni, dia dah grow.
Dia expect income pun grow. So, we try to cut the
number of staff, so you try to optimise, satu orang
buat more than, katakan lah sekarang you buat lima
ke apa, kan. So, maybe dia expect, seven to nine.
The expected 10 to 20% deduction...(Roy-

Property problem

Maybank)
Kita perlukan ramai sales people lah sebenarnya.

(tak untung)

Because these people, at the end of the day,

generate income lah. Macam property ni, just
support je, just to support business So, cost to us.
Takde generate income pun.. (Roy-Maybank)
So, saya tengok dia punya knowledge lah situ. Kita
punya main core business kita on the property,
normally saya punya top leader tu, bukanlah dalam
property, so bila datang issue macam ni, diorang
tak berapa nampak lah. So, maksudnya dalam kita
sibuk setiap hari ni, kita nak manage site, kita nak
carik site-site yang baru, kita nak apa, kita nak

Kos operasi

maintain the rental semua.. (Azan-Axiata)

Sebab sewa tak mahal lah. Ada setengah tu,
between five to one thousand lah. Tempat tu lah.
Rental untuk because landlord akan absorb cost
electricity and everything, alright. But,

maintenance tu mahal. Sebab kena employ untuk

outsource company to reload money and
everything. Itu yang cost us easily, six thousand to
seven thousand per month So, because of that,
operation cost, banyak lah untuk that portion..(Roy

Bank restriction

Maybank)
Tapi, bank dia ada restriction lah. Maknanya, you
tak boleh beli for the purpose of investment. As
long as you ada bukak branch... So those yang
excess place upper floor tu, dia kena rent out lah. .
(Roy-Maybank)
So, maknanya, kita akan buy back lah, purchase.
So, dia akan pass to my team, so that kita akan
revalue balik, then kita akan market kan lah.. (RoyMaybank)
Actually, set up sebelum ni, team ni cuma unit je.
So, tahun 2010, masa tu, dalam 10 orang lah tapi
takde sorang pun yang background property. Bila
kita recruit untuk, tak salah INSPEN ea, start
recruit, condition nya semua sekali, kena ada

Lease shoplots

Broker issue

background real estate lah.. (Roy-Maybank)

So, sekaran ni, moving forward lah ea, we try to
own especially shoplots. Kita mula dari six. Ada
option lah. Plus three plus three.. (Roy-Maybank)
There are cases yang macam tu lah. Kalau kita tak

Outsources

boleh nak dapat direct owner, kan. Perhaps you go

for third party, but the location itself, macam tadi
lah, the justification is the bank yang(Zul-Affin)
You go to any banks, nak identify the new site for
you to open the branch ataupun business loan

center ke, it is actually your call. You tak boleh

Misunderstanding

outsource. It is your own decision, why you want to

about real estate

open up a new branch, a new business loan center,

your own justification lah perhaps the market, the
surrounding, nampak ada potential business coming
within this area. Those are the justifications..(ZulAffin)
make sure all these people understand the
requirement on this real estate. Kalau orang paham,
they see the potential, then I believe that everybody
will do that. You private sector ke, even
government sector pun, nothing wrong for them to
set up this real estate unit under the government
If youre talking about real estate ni, my
understanding ada dua tadi. Satu, is our own
property. The other one is the gross property that
kita pegang as cagaran kepada kita..(Zul-Affin)
saya punya pendapat lah, even saya ni baru dalam
ni, tapi kita boleh nampak the whole lah, the whole
kita punya culture, culture business.. Kita punya

New strategy

main core business kita on the property, normally

saya punya top leader tu, bukanlah dalam property,
so bila datang issue macam ni, diorang tak berapa
nampak lah. So, maksudnya dalam kita sibuk setiap
hari ni, kita nak manage site, kita nak carik site-site
yang baru, kita nak apa, kita nak maintain the rental
semua, saya nampak issue dia.. (Azan-Axiata)

Management push

Maksudnya, untuk long term punya problem tu,

diorang nampak dan faham. Tapi, sebabkan bila
diorang ni memang bukan pure dalam bidang ni,
so, untuk dia nak tackle tu, dia perlukan dia punya

step tu, A to Z
golongan-golongan muda dalam bahagian property
kita tengah come up untuk tunjukkan pada kita
punya top higher management untuk tunjukkan
pada dia yang, sebenarnya apa yang kita beri ni,
dah terlalu rendah berbanding apa yang ada di
market sekarang. Itu the first dia punya problem
lah. So, benda-benda tu lah antara salah satu
problem yang saya nampak, diorang sebenarnya
tahu, tapi atas dasar untung, dan atas dasar
mungkin dia tak tahu macam mana cara...(AzanAxiata)
Push daripada department head. Tapi, basically for
the support sahaja. Sebab real estate bukannya core
business, kan? Kita focus kalau katakan you nak
____________ dengan bank tu, you kena pergi
service level lah. Why numbers kita besar because
branches kita banyak. Ada berapa orang kat
property?.. (Roy-maybank)
1. Increase

i.

Conducts valuation

Main properties is office, quarters and workplace

of assets each year

Selects suitable

(all are leased). The company has own system to

ii.

value of
assets

locations for
iii.

properties
Manage risks
associated with

iv.

properties
Ignore obsolete

v.

properties
Has the proper IT
system for managing
properties

conduct a valuation of assets using software

(develop internally). The company is not really
concerned about the value of assets. The business
unit will decide whether to keep or dispose a
property. Mostly company will dispose underutilise
assets. The company allocates space to the
employee base on functions. They allocated in
several places. Some of them allocated in refinery
sites. (Jolene-Shell)

The main properties that we manage in our

company are office and land (Non-hydrocarbon
assets). The most important/ valuable asset for this
company are Hydrocarbon sites and buildings/land.
Our company will dispose or sub-lease for
underutilise assets. (Ann-Shell)
Basically, our company has a property development
and property maintenance units for managing our
property and asset value. We have a building, lands,
branches and overseas assets as business activities.
In a local, some of the assets involved in leasing
and rental activities. One of the strategy that used
by the company is wise and brilliant in rental
agreement. Our company can get extra profit using
negotiating with a client. Some department has a
research team to making strategy and propose to
top management. (Zul-Affin)

Increase value of asset

Companies in Malaysia mainly owned properties is office, staff accomodation (quarters) and workplace.
Common features for this ownership for this properties are in the form of leasing. The companies use
system to conduct valuation of assets through software that normally developed internally. Even though
the companies own many assets but these companies is not really concerned about the value of assets
(SHELL).
The business unit will decide whether to keep or dispose a property. Mostly company will dispose
underutilise assets. The company allocates space to the employee base on functions. They allocated in
several places. Some of them allocated in refinery sites. (Jolene-Shell). The main properties that we
manage in our company are office and land (Non-hydrocarbon assets). The most important/ valuable asset
for this company are Hydrocarbon sites and buildings/land. Our company will dispose or sub-lease for
underutilise assets. (Ann-Shell).
Basically, our company has a property development and property maintenance units for managing our

property and asset value. We have a building, lands, branches and overseas assets as business activities. In
a local, some of the assets involved in leasing and rental activities. One of the strategy that used by the
company is wise and brilliant in rental agreement. Our company can get extra profit using negotiating with
a client. Some department has a research team to making strategy and propose to top management. (ZulAffin)
2. Promote

i.

Choose a property

There is another team involve in marketing. The

location that can

company is doing promoting, marketing using

attract customers
Provides space that

internal space branding (by corporate office). The

ii.
iii.

attracts customers
Considers symbolic

marketing
and sale

statement through
design of the
iv.

v.

property
Creates workplaces

corporate office will responsible to developed sense

of

belonging.

Shell

Tower

(head

quarters)

represented as iconic building. Our team provides a

conducive meeting environment to support the sale.
(Jolene-Shell)

that support the

Real estate helps promote marketing and sale of the

company's brand
Provides an

company by making our in-house rental valuation

environment that
supports the sale

in order to balance the cost expenses and profit

return. Our company iconic symbol is based on our
own main system. (Azan-Axiata)
Real estate helps promote marketing and sale of the
company through creating workplaces that support
the board and provide an environment that support
the staff. Menara shell is one iconic building for
our company. We provide an environment to
support sales through image and branding. (AnnShell)
Some complaints and request come from outdoor
client. The company should take a risk depend on

3. Increase

i.

Develops workplace

ii.

based on usability
Designs facilities to

innovations

allow innovative

business activity. (Zul-Affin)

From management view, collaborative workplace
environment

will

support

work

culture.

Management also provides good facilities to

iii.

processes
Emphasizes
knowledge in a work

iv.

setting
Allows employees to
participate in

support staff innovation. The company already

provides a new headquarters as itself initiated. The
company has also requested input from the
employee during planning stages (workplaces
design). (Jolene-Shell)

workplace design
Innovation is very important to our company. Our
company applied a Flexi working style as an
initiated of innovative changes. (Azan-Axiata)
Innovation is very important. We have design
standard to support innovative workplace culture.
Our company allows working environment and
desk sharing in order to encourage changes in the
company. (Ann-Shell)
In Shell, there are three teams in corporate real
estate itself, such as the strategic team, the
transaction team and the project team. In Tabung
Haji, there are two units in corporate real estate,
Make efforts to seek

namely marketing and rental properties.

The company provides food place for employee

employee

locations that are

around the workplaces. (Jolene-Shell)

satisfaction

convenient to

4. Increase

i.

ii.
iii.
iv.

employees
Ensures pleasant

Our company provides gym, cafeteria, war room

and other ills as a facility around the workplaces

working environment
(for conducive environment). Our company very
Provides a functional
concern about the responses from employee.
workplace
Provides enough
(Azan-Axiata).
facilities for

v.

employees
Responses quickly to
real estate
requirements

There

are

some

facilities

available

around

workplace like a public transport, gymnasium,

public health ailments and others. The management
also provides extra necessities to increase employee

satisfaction such as games room, yoga room,

mother room, cafes and shop. In Shell, we have a
ticketing system to receive any respond or
employee requirements being handled by facility
management. After a major project completion, we
will conduct workplace satisfaction level of the
employee. (Ann-Shell)
The

top

management

level

has

different

background. Most of them doesnt have property

background. There are several challenging and
weeks when the management team is trying to fix
some issues because they cannot understand behind
that issue. Some company does not have a
structured organization led to their employees
receive high workloads or conflict in their job task.
Some companies face a challenge when they are
involved with business activities in urban areas.
5. Increase

i.

productivity
ii.

Maintain facilities to

(Roy-Maybank)
The workplace is really important for optimal

accommodate

productivity, depending on the functions. Oil and

optimal operations
Provides an

gas exploration requires (more the engineering

environment that
enhances
iii.

productivity
Chooses convenient
layouts for

iv.

side). Conducive workplaces very important to

employee productivity. The main complaints of
employee are about workplace satisfaction and
facilities

provided.

Company decisions

have

previously been increased company productivity

(new office helps to provide new environment).

contractors/suppliers
Designs facilities that (Jolene-Shell)
improve the creation

v.

and delivery of

The workplace is much important for the operation,

products
Choose a location

while I do think that medium of working is very

that is convenient for

important for real estate. We measured the

employees' needs in different workplace by

employee

recognizing the aim of producing. The main

accessibility

complaint from employee happened when the

landlord tries to ask about rental which is higher
than market value. The company made the decision
to limit the maximum and minimum rate of rental
caused changing employee productivity. (AzanAxiata).
IT connectivity and safe working environment are
important to employee productivity. Our company
has measured employee needs using survey report
and business requirement. The main complaints,
mostly received by a management site which is
needed, extra facilities like a parking, coffee
machine and sensitivity at security access systems.
Our company has introduced different types of
working and meeting space for changing employee
productivity. (Ann-Shell)
Corporate real estate is seriously maintaining their
customer satisfaction and protect consumer rights.
Its one of their keep performance indices (KPI) for

6. Increase

i.

flexibility
ii.

Chooses leasing

jobs task. (Faizal-Tabung Haji)

Company more prefer leasing compare owning

instead of owning

because there is not a core business to own real

property
Prefers short-term

estate. A company creates a flexible working

leases compared to
iii.

long-term leases
Creates fix and

environment through share space and multipurpose

facilities (meeting room can transfer classroom for
training) to save costs. (Jolene-Shell)

standard workplace
iv.

solutions
Favours multi-

v.

purpose facilities
Selects fully serviced

The company prefers on leasing, as our culture of

business is base of tenancy contracts and leasing of
the tower. Our company creates a Flexi working
hours and working station as flexible working

offices

environment. Our own office had all facilities

inside for practicing multiple use facilities. We
practice an open working station and open room
space. (Azan-Axiata)
Our company is preparing leasing because its more
flexible than owning. There are flexible working
environment in Shell like a flexible spaces and
height adjustable workspace. Our company was
practicing

multiple

usage

facilities

such

as

collaboration area and rest area can be used by

other employees. Shell has implemented open
workplace area. The only senior executive level has
7. reduce cost

Minimizes

personal rooms. (Ann-Shell)

The company has proper planning to minimizes

acquisition and

operating expenses. The facilities management

team will conduct routine maintenance (proper

ii.

financing costs
Maximize operating

iii.

expenses
Creates economies of

i.

scale in purchasing
(eg. Buying
furniture, facilities,
iv.

etc.)
Avoid routine

v.

maintenance
Balances between
out-source and in-

vi.

house services
Avoid real estate
reduction strategies
as a financial control

vii.

mechanism
Utilizes government

viii.

property incentives
Establishes

inspection) and also implement companys rules

and regulation. Among activities done by a real
estate team such as renovation- by contractor,
finding

new

space/land

(outsources

external

parties) and arrange management portfolio (inhouse). Unused/underutilise asset being sold by
business unit. The company saves real estate cost
due to negotiating new lease term. (Jolene-Shell)
Our company minimizes operating expenses by
using our own system called Property Information
System (PRISM). The company creates economies
of scale by making furniture and workplaces as
multipurpose usage. Among real estate activities
being outsourced to external parties such as
negotiating the existing rental, searching for new
sites and tenancy agreement stamping. We are in

workplace standards

progress to come out with our own commercial

proposal on all the existing site. (Azan Axiata)
The company has minimized operating expenses
with prefer sustainable building such as LEED
certified buildings. Our company has global
contract furniture as a created economy of scale.
The company also conducts a routine maintenance
depends on assets. Among activities were done inhouse by real estate included a stakeholder
management and service providers. There are
several rules are being implemented in the
workplace, such as clear desk policy, dynamic desk
sharing, reduce waste policy and HSSE. Also, our
company makes a transition between different team
in real estate must be done efficiently to ensure a
smooth handover and operations. (Ann-Shell)